All language subtitles for True.Crime.Story.Citizen.Detective.S01E06.Josh.Hallmark.720p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP2.0.H.264-NTb

[Josh] My obsession
is to investigate

and find missing victims.

I think that there is value
in doing that,

especially as we
move this case along

that no one else
is looking into.

Israel Keyes said,
"I'm a serial killer

who's traveled the country
for the last 12 years

and I killed over 50 people."

He would travel the country
and hide

kits full of weapons,
rape tools,

sometimes costumes.

He's known as the most
meticulous serial killer

who would plan crimes
years in advance.

This is about Keyes,
and his victims,

and their families.

I have articles.

What's been really important
to me is taking trips

to places Keyes went

to look into potential victims.

If we can get people
interested in this case

and get more information
out there,

we're likely
to get more information back,

which could help us
identify victims.

Maybe I can find something
the FBI couldn't.

[rain falling]

In an unreleased interview,

the FBI reported
that his victims ranged in age

from late teens to the elderly.

Now, there's a few things
to note.

My name is Josh Hallmark.

I produce a podcast called
True Crime Bullshit.

I've returned
to the tapes and files

to reassess
the periods of time...

In 2012, I was
living in Seattle,

writing advertising materials

for non-profit
healthcare insurance.

I quickly found a co-worker

who was also a big consumer
of true crime media

and was fascinated with crime.

And so we would have
our weird watercooler talks

about crimes that were
interesting or scary

or devastating.

And one day she peaked
over the cubicle wall,

was like, "Hey,
there's this new serial killer.

Have you heard about this guy?"

And so that piqued
my interest immediately.

It was like, "Oh, there's
a modern-day serial killer?"

So we started looking up
the Samantha Koenig case.

Samantha Koenig was a barista
living in Anchorage, Alaska.

She was working
at a drive-through coffee stand.

Was closing up one night
in early 2012.

A man came by, ordered a coffee.

He crawled through the window

and abducted her.

The first ransom request
texted the family

to go a park and go
to the bulletin board there,

and underneath
a missing dog poster

was a typed ransom letter.

From there, they started,
I guess, negotiating

how the ransom would be paid

via text messages

between Samantha's phone
and her father.

He wants $30,000.

In the meantime,
the suspect's testing out

Samantha's debit card to see
how much money is already on it.

That's what got him busted.

They were able to follow

the tracks of
these debit transactions.

Then they caught
his rental car on camera.

And that was it.

His name was Israel Keyes.

Keyes was arrested in Texas,
March 13th, 2012.

They found a litany

of suspicious items
in his rental car,

women's clothing.

They found
large amounts of cash,

tons of weapons
in the trunk of his car.

A lot of
the Keyes interrogations

had somehow made their way
to YouTube.

I was fascinated by him.

I think he felt like
he was running game.

He had been arrested,
but he was in control.

Keyes named three victims,

Bill and Lorraine Currier,

and Samantha Koenig.

Keyes confessed he raped
and killed Samantha

in the shed in his driveway.

His dismembered her,

took her remains out
to Matanuska Lake,

about 40 miles north
of Anchorage,

and set up an ice fishing tent,

and slowly
and methodically submerged

her remains in the lake.

And then he went home
and fed his family

the fish that he caught
while he was out there.

About six months
before Samantha,

Keyes rented a car in cash,

drove that car to Vermont,

abducted two people
from their home,

Bill and Lorraine Currier,
raped and murdered them.

Their remains had been
abandoned in a farmhouse.

Keyes said, "I'm a serial killer

who's traveled the country
for the last 12 years.

I've killed over 50 people."

There is something
excruciatingly terrifying

about 50 victims.

He's known as the most
meticulous serial killer

who would plan crimes
years in advance

and traveled great distances.

He was in almost every state
while he was operating.

My partner literally
eventually started

sleeping in the living room

'cause I turned our bedroom
into a war room.

I was just, all day long,
listening to Israel Keyes

talk about murdering people.

The FBI seized
his girlfriend's computer

as well as his computer.

And while they were
running data analysis,

they found thousands of images.

They ran those images
through NamUs,

which is a government organization

for missing people,

using facial recognition.

And NamUs found 45 matches.

Of those 45,
the Curriers were two ,

as well as other victims
I would investigate later.

Nine months
after he was arrested,

he got a hold of a razor blade

and he slit his wrists,

and then used a bedsheet
to hang himself in his cell.

He was found
several hours later, dead.

They find a note,

which is actually
drenched in blood,

four pages of freestyle writing.

It looked like song lyrics
from death metal bands he liked.

It was kind of a manifesto.

They found this drawing
in his own blood

of 12 skulls,

and then, scrawled
underneath it,

is "We are all one."

The FBI believed
the skulls represented Keyes

and his victims.

So it's reasonable to assume

that Keyes had killed
at least 11, probably more.

Many of the FBI agents

who were investigating this case

didn't wanna give it up,

but, because of resources

and because Keyes
was no longer with us,

they had to.

It was narratively so different

from what we're accustomed to,

which is crime, victim, killer,

and here it was
killer, crime, victims?

I realize, "Here we have
this killer

who no one's looking into

and at least eight victims
who had never been identified."

And that's where interest
became obsession.

When I was growing up,

I was always
an oddly curious kid.

[Reporter] His remains
would be found buried...

[Josh] Even as a weirdo
little kid,

I was looking into
serial killers

and missing persons cases.

And then we had
a family tragedy.

My second cousins,
they were about my age.

There was a break-in
at their home.

A man kicked down the door,

and the older of the two boys

who was, I think, seven

was running to call 911

and the man
shot him in the stomach.

And then he found
the younger, Daniel,

and he led him into the bedroom

where their mother was hiding.

And he shot them both
in the head.

Billy, who was shot
in the stomach, survived.

And like, it...

It hit home
in a really real way.

I really started,
at 12 years old,

evaluating my relationship
with true crime.

I think,
because I have an understanding

of how grief
and trauma affect people,

it really struck a nerve
with me.

There was all these families
who don't have answers,

and the answers
are with this guy

who just killed himself.

What's been really important
to me

is to look into
potential victims.

Producing this podcast,
I can share this research,

and the further we do it

and the further
more people get involved,

we learn more.

So here I am,
over 10 years later,

doing everything I can

to find answers
if they're there.

Taking trips
to places Keyes went

could be critical
in the investigation into Keyes.

There is nothing
that is going to stop me

from going out
and further investigating it.

He had researched
and read other serial killers.

Israel Keyes didn't kidnap
and kill people

because he was crazy.

Israel Keyes did this

because he got an immense amount
of enjoyment out of it.

I had consumed enough true crime

that I knew about the Freedom
of Information Act requests.

So I filed
one of those with the FBI.

And then the files came.

I was not anticipating
over 4,000 pages.

I start going through
the files and the interviews,

and the FBI has created

a pretty substantial timeline.

I can see
where Keyes has traveled to.

It's great, it's helpful,

because there's a lot
of components

linking Keyes
to potential victims.

So first is places
he returned to

over and over and over again,

which is critical in his MO.

It shows intent.

Keyes had told the FBI,

every time he was out
in the woods

or anytime he was out,
driving around,

he would look for places
that he could abduct people to

or abduct people from.

And then he would go back
and wait in the woods

for the right opportunity
and the right person.

So we should be looking
for bodies

near roads
that he would've taken.

Who went missing nearby?

Can we place them
in the area at the time?

And, okay,
add it to the timeline.

And it's essentially
a timeline of his entire life.

I did a bunch of research.
I talked to experts.

[Reporter] Investigators say
Israel Keyes told authorities

he strategically hid
a box filled with weapons

and tools near
the Winooski River.

Keyes quickly became known
for his kill kits.

He would travel the country
and would bury or hide

kits, usually buckets,
full of weapons,

rape tools, sometimes costumes.

Keyes talked about hiking there,

thinking about
burying a kill kit there.

He had gone out there,
looking for victims, so...

And it's right off the road,

so when you're driving through,
you would see it and be like,

-"Maybe I'll stop there..."
- It's a tourist destination.

It seems like
a really easy place

to bury a body
and have nobody question it.

[Josh] It's heavy stuff
to do on your own.

And I was,
in the first two years,

68 to 80 hours a week
on this by myself

with no one really to turn to.

I think it was because they were
doing construction, right?

Is that what you figured out?

They had done construction since...

I was never looking for a team.

It happened very organically.

There was no way
I was inviting someone

into this thing
that I cared so much about,

that I'd already poured
years of my life into.

But three people
weaseled their way in.

And now I don't know
what I'd do without them.

As an investigative journalist,

one thing that we can do
that the police can't always do

is we have the time

to follow the rabbit holes
that we wanna follow.

[Josh] I wanna say
certainty doesn't exist

without forensic evidence.

And I am not there yet,

and I don't know that I will
ever have the tools to be there,

so, unfortunately,
at this point,

it's me
hopefully inspiring people

who do have the tools
to do the work.

What's been really important
to me is taking trips

to places Keyes went

to look into potential victims.

What I can do in the field
is see things

that a computer
can never show me.

Being on the ground,
you have a better understanding

of the culture
of an environment.

And, also, would someone like
Israel Keyes

blend in here
or would he stick out?

Southern California
is what I call a hotspot.

It's these places
we can put Keyes in

over and over and over again.

So this trip, I'm going down

because of
a missing persons case

out of Riverside County

that I believe
could be a Keyes case.

We've done as much
as we can online.

Now I'd actually like to
go see the terrain myself.

California's critical
because Keyes' girlfriend

did a lot of work down here.

I know for a fact
he came down to Riverside

or to this general area
at least twice

to visit her
while she was working.

There's a gentleman
who disappeared from Riverside

at a time where we can't
place Keyes anywhere.

Donald Tobin is a older gay man

who was living in Riverside.

Decided to go take some stuff
to storage one day.

And he was never seen again.

Donald Tobin was last seen
July 7th of 2010.

His car was found
about a mile from his house.

And all the stuff he was going
to take to storage

was still in it.

It was found in a place
he would never go.

It's a dog park
near the freeway.

And that was it. No one could
explain what happened.

We've also got
Keyes' online search records,

looking for someone
who disappeared

in Riverside County that week

when Donald Tobin disappeared.

We looked at the timeline
and it's very tight,

but Keyes was unaccounted for
in about 20 hours

surrounding Donald's
disappearance.

And as we got further
into the investigation,

we realized there was
a very good likelihood

that Keyes was trolling
gay men online.

Donald was gay.

Keyes, he never came out
of the closet, socially,

but he was bisexual
and sexually motivated.

I hope I can find how easy it is

to stay concealed there

and how easy it is to get
from where the car was found

to this gentleman's house
without being seen.

Something that will
either make it seem

more certain that it was Keyes

or rule Keyes out.

[Josh]
We are at Carlson Dog Park.

This is where Donald Tobin's
car was found.

It's a couple miles
from his house

in Riverside.

Then from here,
we'll do a quick hike

of this trail
at Mount Rubidoux.

Get a lay of the land,
see are there places to hide.

So you can see up here,
there's houses

just over here to the right.

That's a neighborhood
Tobin lived in.

He lived walking distance,
less than a mile

from where we are now.

And, again, this trail goes

basically right
into his backyard.

I think it's about a block
from his house,

where he was last seen.

Keyes talked extensively
in his interviews

about stalking trail heads
and using trail heads.

The other thing that stands out

is there's this cross up there.

Keyes mother was a big fan
of extremist religions.

They were in the fundamentalist
Christian church

outside of Spokane, Washington.

He's raised
essentially off the grid.

He was not introduced
to culture,

other people, humanity,

and was surrounded by people
who didn't value human life,

who openly hated gay people,

and black people,
and brown people, and...

Imagine what that fosters.

He's talked a lot
about his animosity

towards organized religion.

Seeing the cross up on the hill,
he talked about

wanting to kill people
at religious sites and churches.

What most likely
would've occurred

is Keyes broke into
Donald Tobin's house

and then abducted him
in his own car.

Took him to a second location,

where he presumably would've
sexually assaulted

and then murdered him.

Took him to a third location
to bury him.

And then parked his car here.

Then Keyes could've easily,
from here, walked

back to wherever his car was

without ever having been seen.

Keyes wanted to create distance
from his crimes

as quickly as possible.

That's very easy for someone

to get from here
back onto the freeway

in a short period of time.

So if you look
at the big picture,

you've got a trail head.

You've got an environment
Keyes is in frequently,

and it's very compelling

I think it warrants
further investigation

into the potential
that Keyes was involved

in Donald Tobin's disappearance.

I published
all of this information

as ethically as possible
in the podcast,

and immediately
put it out into the world.

If we can get people
interested in this case

and get more information
out there,

we're likely to get
more information back,

which could help us
identify victims.

The other thing I look for

is Keyes' buried kill kits,

often near locations where he
planned on abducting people.

Either he would
literally bury them

or he would hide them
in boulders.

Keyes would return
to the kill kits.

He told the FBI
items he took from his victims

are in some of these kill kits,

so they are very valuable.

[GPS] Head west
toward Ramona Expressway.

Just gonna go out to Lake Perris

where we have
a very credible sighting

placing Keyes
potentially with a kill kit.

This particular tip came in

with the FOIA files
I got from the FBI in 2018.

Former FBI agent Bobby Chacon

is gonna meet me out there.

He actually worked the case

and was responsible for finding

one of the kill kits
up in Upstate New York.

So this will be my first time
going out to Lake Perris.

It's also gonna be
the first time

Bobby's been out to Lake Perris,

especially as someone

who's seen places
that Keyes has killed before.

I know he's pretty eager

to get his eyes on this place.

- Hey. Hey, Josh.
- [Josh] Bobby.

- Good to see you.
- [Josh] Thanks for coming out.

No worries. This is
my backyard, kinda.

[Josh] Bobby Chacon is one of
the first people I talked to

when I started
digging into this case

and a really great proponent
of the work I do.

I was involved
in the Israel Keyes case

when I was with the FBI.

In fact, my dive team
went into Alaska

and we recovered
his final victim,

Samantha Koenig.

[Josh] This tip came in
shortly after Keyes died,

before a lot of the details
of the case

had been made public yet.

It was somebody who identified
Israel Keyes here

as having met him one day.

[Josh] This guy's out here,
fishing, in March 2011.

And Keyes approaches him.

He starts talking about
how he's hunting.

And the guy's like, "There's
nothing out here to hunt."

And Keyes is like,
"I'm here to hunt prey."

He was real creeped out by it.

Keyes asks him,

"if you disappeared,
would anyone know?"

He says
Keyes comes out of the woods

near the porta potties.

He's got a rusted shovel,
a home depot bucket,

and a fishing pole.

Then he sees him later,
hiking back up into the woods

with this rusted shovel
and a bucket.

He said he immediately knew

this was the man
that he had encountered

when he saw
Israel Keyes' photograph.

[Bobby] Really? Wow.

[Josh] And so we know Keyes was

active in the area at the time.

And it turns out,
close to a year prior,

Donald Tobin disappeared
within 20 miles away.

On top of that,

we have
Kristine Nicole Hamilton

also found on Keyes' computer.

She disappeared
not far from there.

If Keyes was there, what are
the greater implications?

[Bobby] Look at all the places
you have to hide something

if you were gonna hide
a kill kit, right?

You can see all these boulders
and these rocks here.

Those are the perfect kind
of terrain

that he could dig a small hole
behind a rock

and put one of those kits
in the ground,

and then he could use
the rock as a marker.

He could make a mental note
of what that rock looked like

and come back to it.

Now, [chuckling] if you
had to search that whole area,

it would literally
take you months

because there are
so many boulders

and that's why it's such
a good location for him to use,

but if I was here
with an FBI team,

I'd probably have 100 agents
up there,

searching that hill, and it
could take us a month.

A lot of serial killers,

they have this ritual
that leads up to the killing.

Hiding those kill kits,

picking out places
that he would eventually use,

even if he wasn't gonna
use it that day,

weeks, months later.

This was all part of who he was

as a predator.

This certainly has
a lot of the elements

that some of those other places
we know he was at,

like Matanuska.

Lake Matanuska is the lake
where Israel Keyes

deposited his last victim,
Samantha Koenig,

when he murdered
and dismembered her.

A lot of criminals
that decide to use water

use it again and again and again

because they feel like
it's a place

that evidence goes
and never gets recovered.

[Josh] So in terms
of credibility on this tip,

- what do you think?
- Look,

it fits all the criteria
that Keyes used

to pick out not only victims
but places.

It definitely puts this place

in contention for highly likely

that something happened here.

So then it's like, "Well,

there's probably a victim
somewhere in the area."

It's wild.

[Bobby] I'd be really surprised
if there weren't bodies

at the bottom of that lake.

[Josh] Fifty-two-year-old
Donald Tobin

was last seen on July 7th.

Police suspect foul play
in his disappearance.

We have a Keyes sighting
several miles away.

And the details
of the disappearance

match everything we know
about Keyes' MO.

Every day, I comb through
missing persons cases.

And because of the nature
of my work,

I'm deeply aware of the gravity

of not only are each
of these human beings

who are attached
to many other human beings

but there's so many of them.

I keep coming back
to the main objective

which is there are families

who don't know
what happened to their loved one

and no one else is looking.

I had covered Suzie Lyall's case
several years ago.

Her name was found
on Keyes' computer.

There are a lot of significant
circumstantial evidence

to look at Keyes as being

responsible for
her disappearance.

Suzanne Lyall was
really intelligent,

really bubbly teenage girl,

who grew up
in the greater Albany area.

Suzie was a student
at SUNY Albany.

She was really into computers.

She worked at Babbage's

which was, at the time,
electronic store, basically,

like computer games
and video games.

And you have to remember
this is 1998.

She was playing
online video games

and really into
the digital world

before the rest of us were.

And one night,

Suzie was working at Babbage's.

And after leaving Babbage's,

she was never seen again.

Right around the time
she went missing,

Keyes was living
in Constable, New York.

Suzie was about Keyes' age

of 19 years old.

She had a very robust
online lifestyle.

And that's something
that comes up in the Keyes case.

He said he was going down
to Albany

while he was living
up in Constable,

and going to computer labs
and libraries,

and using computers there.

At a certain point,

Suzie told a friend
that she felt like

a man had been following her.

And is it possible
that the man that Suzanne felt

was following her
was, in fact, Keyes?

[GPS] Keep right
to take exit three

towards Albany International.

[Josh] What's great
about this trip is

we're gonna meet
Dr. Kunkle at the airport.

How's it going?
We're gonna figure that one out?

Dr. Kunkle
is a criminal psychologist,

one of my favorite people.

He's really immersed himself

in all things Keyes.

I got involved
with the Lyall case

as part of the St. Rose
Cold Case Analysis Center.

We were asked by Mary Lyall,
Suzanne Lyall's mother,

to get involved
and look at the investigation.

[Josh] If Suzie
was a Keyes victim,

it would've been earlier on

in the commission of his crimes.

So he wouldn't have been
as sophisticated

as far back as 1997 and 1998,

when his crimes began.

We believe, based on sightings,

that Suzie either disappeared
leaving her workplace

or disappeared
getting off the bus

at SUNY's campus.

It would be perfectly natural

for someone
who looked like Keyes

to be on a college campus.

[Chris] Yeah, he would
draw no attention here.

All right, so this is,
the bus stop's over here,

over closer to her dorm.

It was a Monday night
and she's coming back from work.

There's probably others
coming from that direction,

using the bus
to get back to campus.

- It probably wasn't desolate.
- Yeah.

[Josh] So, I guess, if she
comes off the bus stop,

this is one logical route
to her dorm.

It could've been
an abduction site?

[Chris] Right. Yeah.

[Josh] If you're Keyes,
you're looking for a place

where you can lie in wait,
and not really be seen.

And there's not really
a lot of that.

Basically, as we've been
standing here,

everybody who got off the bus
and came to this quad

walked up this walkway

or down there through the trees

over there and into the quad.

Yeah.

[Chris] The only other
point of access

is right here
in front of everyone.

[Josh] Yeah.

[Chris] Which doesn't make
any sense at all.

It's a very high-risk
environment.

There's no way to track
whether she

actually got on the bus.

Back then, they were
just showing their ID

as a SUNY student
and you just ride.

[Josh] Now that we're here,
we see

how many people are around

and what a short distance
it is.

- [Chris] Right.
- It seems more likely

that she went missing
at Crossgates Mall

rather than here.

[Chris] We know
she was at the mall.

That's irrefutable.

She worked that day,
and her manager saw her leave

and said he knows
what exit she took.

[Josh] During the same time
that Suzanne Lyall disappeared,

just miles from where
she was last seen,

a woman encountered a man
in a Marshalls parking lot

that she believed was Keyes.

What stood out to us was
the things he was asking her.

"How old are you?

If you left right now,
would anyone notice?"

Some blatantly disturbing questions.

These come up
over and over and over again

in tips and places
where Keyes was.

We can place him
in the Albany area

that spring,
looking to abduct someone

from the mall parking lot.

[Chris] Suzanne Lyall was
working at the Crossgates Mall

on the night
of her disappearance.

[Josh] More than likely,
she disappeared at the mall,

walking from Babbage's
to the bus stop.

Right around the time
Suzanne Lyall went missing,

Keyes was looking on
enlisting in the Army,

and the Army recruitment office

was two miles
from where she was last seen.

This is where Keyes
enlisted in the Army.

He, at that point, was really
disagreeing with his parents.

They were very anti-government,

so it would make sense
for someone rebelling,

also someone who had
a desire to hurt people,

to join the Army.

Joining the Army
gives him the paycheck.

Right.

And license to kill.

And now maybe he's like,
"Okay, it's time.

I can start
committing crimes in this area

'cause I'm gonna be
leaving soon."

He told the FBI that he planned
his murders around travels

because, after a girl
was abducted,

no one's gonna look at the guy
who goes off to the Army

or left at 4:00 in the morning
to go on a vacation.

He wanted to create
as much distance,

physically and psychologically,

between himself and his crimes.

So the Marshalls location
to here is interesting.

Basically, just right across
the street.

It doesn't seem like he was
actually trying to abduct her.

It almost seems like
he was ramping up,

he was testing to decide
what he'll do next.

But what killed me
is walking out here

and the first thing you see
is a cemetery.

[Chris] I know.

[Josh] He told the FBI
cemetery outbuildings

were easy to gain access to

and they were great places
to rape and murder victims.

And walkable through the woods

to Six Mile Waterworks Park,

where there's a reservoir
and tons of outbuildings.

[Chris] Yeah.

When you bring up
Six Mile Waterworks,

it's the only body of water

within this three, four mile radius

between the two malls,
the campus,

parking lot.

[Josh] And Six Mile
Waterworks Park

is in the center
of all four points,

Colonie Center, Marshalls, SUNY,
and Babbage's.

You can walk through the park
from any four of those points

without really being seen.

The fact that he could walk
through that park unseen

to all four destinations
is fascinating.

You had said they had searched
it pretty extensively, right?

[Chris] Well,
they said they did,

but I believe
they didn't use dogs

and they never checked
the water.

[Josh] And at this point,
we know Keyes

liked to submerge his
victims' remains in water.

If it was Keyes,

Suzie's final resting place

is possibly Waterworks Park.

[Chris] The timing
of her abduction

and his being in the area,

and then the other signature
Keyes offense patterns,

that it just makes sense.

[Josh] There was a lot
of compelling evidence there.

But we can't say for sure
if we've solved the case.

I don't think
in terms of justice

or closure,

'cause I don't think
there can be justice or closure

in family upheaval.

I think about Suzie Lyall
a lot in this regard.

Imagine being known worldwide

only for the worst thing
to ever happen to you.

And when people wanna
talk about Suzie,

that's what they
wanna talk about.

The first time I met Dr. Kunkle,

I was invited to speak

at an event in Saratoga Springs.

Mary Lyall, Suzie's mother,
was gonna be there

and I got to meet her.

And it was so humbling,

to meet Suzie's mom

and hear her talk about Suzie.

It felt like I got to know
who she was

from the person
who knew her the best.

So in a sense,

if there is an obligation,

it is to treat these people
like more than

just the worst thing
that ever happened to them.

Both Chris and I
are committed to investigating

until there are no stones left
to turn over.

- [Chris] All right, thanks, man.
- All right.

Yeah, take care, Chris.

[Josh] Until then, I find myself

obsessively driving
the back roads

of Berkshire County
and Upstate New York,

looking for something.

In addition to the Suzanne
Lyall case,

there are others that I'm
quite confident were Keyes',

but I still would like
a little more reassurances on.

The first two are
are Kami and Eugene.

Kami was a high school student
living in Oregon.

She was 16.

She had just met
this boyfriend, Eugene.

And they decided
to go for a walk out

on the Oregon coast.

And no one ever saw them again.

The police quickly leaned
into the theory

they had been swept out to sea.

And, ultimately, the police
stopped looking into it.

Keyes had told the FBI that,

following his discharge
from the Army,

he had abducted
a male-female couple

from either Washington State or
one of its surrounding states.

I've looked into it extensively.

There's only one case
that matches that description.

And it's Kami and Eugene's case.

Obviously, since
the first episode, I...

I've had family members
reach out to me,

which is great,

because that is an honor
and a privilege

and quite humbling,

to have those experiences
and relationships,

and get to know these people

and know that they value
the work I'm doing.

I'm always anxious about
covering someone's case

because I don't know

how the family's going to feel
about it,

and I was appreciative
that you reached out to me.

I don't know. You've done
a really good job

of bringing her to life

and making sure she stays
in the forefront

of people's memories,

and it's really wonderful.

Thank you, yeah,
she was a special person.

She was.

I've reached out
to Lincoln County.

I've not heard back,

but I keep hoping
the FBI will release

more of the redacted files
at some point,

and I think that's the best
thing we can wish for.

And I cannot thank you enough.

Seriously.

I have done very little,

so I did the bare minimum.

No. No. Hands down,
you've done so much.

I'm just grateful

that you want closure
for the families,

whether it's my family
or other people's families.

"We've also seen that while
his memory for locations

is startlingly accurate...

It's the first time
I've had a job

that I believe
in the work that I'm doing.

I've even had law enforcement

reach out to me and be like,

"Hey, we have
this missing persons case.

Do you think it's Keyes?"

The most infuriating thing
about investigating Israel Keyes

is, without a body
or biometric evidence,

it's nearly impossible
to truly confirm

he's responsible
for any missing person.

There are all these families

who don't know what happened
to their loved ones.

At this point, I am invested

and I care immensely.

Maybe a small price
to pay for that is like,

"Yeah, a serial killer lives
rent-free

in the back of my brain
for the rest of my life.

When I started putting
the podcast together

and writing the first season,
I was very compelled

by that line, like,

"I don't wanna be wrapped up
in all this true crime bull..."

It's what I ultimately named
the podcast.

I thought it was a nice...
you to Keyes,

to be like, "Hey, not only
is the media covering your case

but we're using your words
to do it."

More and more people
are learning about Keyes.

And we're getting more and more
information because of that,

which could help us
identify victims

which will help bring
some resolve to families

who for now, over a decade,

don't know what happened
to their loved ones.

[music]