Original subtitles

[Josh] My obsession is to investigate

and find missing victims.

I think that there is value in doing that,

especially as we move this case along

that no one else is looking into.

Israel Keyes said, "I'm a serial killer

who's traveled the country for the last 12 years

and I killed over 50 people."

He would travel the country and hide

kits full of weapons, rape tools,

sometimes costumes.

He's known as the most meticulous serial killer

who would plan crimes years in advance.

This is about Keyes, and his victims,

and their families.

I have articles.

What's been really important to me is taking trips

to places Keyes went

to look into potential victims.

If we can get people interested in this case

and get more information out there,

we're likely to get more information back,

which could help us identify victims.

Maybe I can find something the FBI couldn't.

[rain falling]

In an unreleased interview,

the FBI reported that his victims ranged in age

from late teens to the elderly.

Now, there's a few things to note.

My name is Josh Hallmark.

I produce a podcast called True Crime Bullshit.

I've returned to the tapes and files

to reassess the periods of time...

In 2012, I was living in Seattle,

writing advertising materials

for non-profit healthcare insurance.

I quickly found a co-worker

who was also a big consumer of true crime media

and was fascinated with crime.

And so we would have our weird watercooler talks

about crimes that were interesting or scary

or devastating.

And one day she peaked over the cubicle wall,

was like, "Hey, there's this new serial killer.

Have you heard about this guy?"

And so that piqued my interest immediately.

It was like, "Oh, there's a modern-day serial killer?"

So we started looking up the Samantha Koenig case.

Samantha Koenig was a barista living in Anchorage, Alaska.

She was working at a drive-through coffee stand.

Was closing up one night in early 2012.

A man came by, ordered a coffee.

He crawled through the window

and abducted her.

The first ransom request texted the family

to go a park and go to the bulletin board there,

and underneath a missing dog poster

was a typed ransom letter.

From there, they started, I guess, negotiating

how the ransom would be paid

via text messages

between Samantha's phone and her father.

He wants $30,000.

In the meantime, the suspect's testing out

Samantha's debit card to see how much money is already on it.

That's what got him busted.

They were able to follow

the tracks of these debit transactions.

Then they caught his rental car on camera.

And that was it.

His name was Israel Keyes.

Keyes was arrested in Texas, March 13th, 2012.

They found a litany

of suspicious items in his rental car,

women's clothing.

They found large amounts of cash,

tons of weapons in the trunk of his car.

A lot of the Keyes interrogations

had somehow made their way to YouTube.

I was fascinated by him.

I think he felt like he was running game.

He had been arrested, but he was in control.

Keyes named three victims,

Bill and Lorraine Currier,

and Samantha Koenig.

Keyes confessed he raped and killed Samantha

in the shed in his driveway.

His dismembered her,

took her remains out to Matanuska Lake,

about 40 miles north of Anchorage,

and set up an ice fishing tent,

and slowly and methodically submerged

her remains in the lake.

And then he went home and fed his family

the fish that he caught while he was out there.

About six months before Samantha,

Keyes rented a car in cash,

drove that car to Vermont,

abducted two people from their home,

Bill and Lorraine Currier, raped and murdered them.

Their remains had been abandoned in a farmhouse.

Keyes said, "I'm a serial killer

who's traveled the country for the last 12 years.

I've killed over 50 people."

There is something excruciatingly terrifying

about 50 victims.

He's known as the most meticulous serial killer

who would plan crimes years in advance

and traveled great distances.

He was in almost every state while he was operating.

My partner literally eventually started

sleeping in the living room

'cause I turned our bedroom into a war room.

I was just, all day long, listening to Israel Keyes

talk about murdering people.

The FBI seized his girlfriend's computer

as well as his computer.

And while they were running data analysis,

they found thousands of images.

They ran those images through NamUs,

which is a government organization

for missing people,

using facial recognition.

And NamUs found 45 matches.

Of those 45, the Curriers were two ,

as well as other victims I would investigate later.

Nine months after he was arrested,

he got a hold of a razor blade

and he slit his wrists,

and then used a bedsheet to hang himself in his cell.

He was found several hours later, dead.

They find a note,

which is actually drenched in blood,

four pages of freestyle writing.

It looked like song lyrics from death metal bands he liked.

It was kind of a manifesto.

They found this drawing in his own blood

of 12 skulls,

and then, scrawled underneath it,

is "We are all one."

The FBI believed the skulls represented Keyes

and his victims.

So it's reasonable to assume

that Keyes had killed at least 11, probably more.

Many of the FBI agents

who were investigating this case

didn't wanna give it up,

but, because of resources

and because Keyes was no longer with us,

they had to.

It was narratively so different

from what we're accustomed to,

which is crime, victim, killer,

and here it was killer, crime, victims?

I realize, "Here we have this killer

who no one's looking into

and at least eight victims who had never been identified."

And that's where interest became obsession.

When I was growing up,

I was always an oddly curious kid.

[Reporter] His remains would be found buried...

[Josh] Even as a weirdo little kid,

I was looking into serial killers

and missing persons cases.

And then we had a family tragedy.

My second cousins, they were about my age.

There was a break-in at their home.

A man kicked down the door,

and the older of the two boys

who was, I think, seven

was running to call 911

and the man shot him in the stomach.

And then he found the younger, Daniel,

and he led him into the bedroom

where their mother was hiding.

And he shot them both in the head.

Billy, who was shot in the stomach, survived.

And like, it...

It hit home in a really real way.

I really started, at 12 years old,

evaluating my relationship with true crime.

I think, because I have an understanding

of how grief and trauma affect people,

it really struck a nerve with me.

There was all these families who don't have answers,

and the answers are with this guy

who just killed himself.

What's been really important to me

is to look into potential victims.

Producing this podcast, I can share this research,

and the further we do it

and the further more people get involved,

we learn more.

So here I am, over 10 years later,

doing everything I can

to find answers if they're there.

Taking trips to places Keyes went

could be critical in the investigation into Keyes.

There is nothing that is going to stop me

from going out and further investigating it.

He had researched and read other serial killers.

Israel Keyes didn't kidnap and kill people

because he was crazy.

Israel Keyes did this

because he got an immense amount of enjoyment out of it.

I had consumed enough true crime

that I knew about the Freedom of Information Act requests.

So I filed one of those with the FBI.

And then the files came.

I was not anticipating over 4,000 pages.

I start going through the files and the interviews,

and the FBI has created

a pretty substantial timeline.

I can see where Keyes has traveled to.

It's great, it's helpful,

because there's a lot of components

linking Keyes to potential victims.

So first is places he returned to

over and over and over again,

which is critical in his MO.

It shows intent.

Keyes had told the FBI,

every time he was out in the woods

or anytime he was out, driving around,

he would look for places that he could abduct people to

or abduct people from.

And then he would go back and wait in the woods

for the right opportunity and the right person.

So we should be looking for bodies

near roads that he would've taken.

Who went missing nearby?

Can we place them in the area at the time?

And, okay, add it to the timeline.

And it's essentially a timeline of his entire life.

I did a bunch of research. I talked to experts.

[Reporter] Investigators say Israel Keyes told authorities

he strategically hid a box filled with weapons

and tools near the Winooski River.

Keyes quickly became known for his kill kits.

He would travel the country and would bury or hide

kits, usually buckets, full of weapons,

rape tools, sometimes costumes.

Keyes talked about hiking there,

thinking about burying a kill kit there.

He had gone out there, looking for victims, so...

And it's right off the road,

so when you're driving through, you would see it and be like,

-"Maybe I'll stop there..." - It's a tourist destination.

It seems like a really easy place

to bury a body and have nobody question it.

[Josh] It's heavy stuff to do on your own.

And I was, in the first two years,

68 to 80 hours a week on this by myself

with no one really to turn to.

I think it was because they were doing construction, right?

Is that what you figured out?

They had done construction since...

I was never looking for a team.

It happened very organically.

There was no way I was inviting someone

into this thing that I cared so much about,

that I'd already poured years of my life into.

But three people weaseled their way in.

And now I don't know what I'd do without them.

As an investigative journalist,

one thing that we can do that the police can't always do

is we have the time

to follow the rabbit holes that we wanna follow.

[Josh] I wanna say certainty doesn't exist

without forensic evidence.

And I am not there yet,

and I don't know that I will ever have the tools to be there,

so, unfortunately, at this point,

it's me hopefully inspiring people

who do have the tools to do the work.

What's been really important to me is taking trips

to places Keyes went

to look into potential victims.

What I can do in the field is see things

that a computer can never show me.

Being on the ground, you have a better understanding

of the culture of an environment.

And, also, would someone like Israel Keyes

blend in here or would he stick out?

Southern California is what I call a hotspot.

It's these places we can put Keyes in

over and over and over again.

So this trip, I'm going down

because of a missing persons case

out of Riverside County

that I believe could be a Keyes case.

We've done as much as we can online.

Now I'd actually like to go see the terrain myself.

California's critical because Keyes' girlfriend

did a lot of work down here.

I know for a fact he came down to Riverside

or to this general area at least twice

to visit her while she was working.

There's a gentleman who disappeared from Riverside

at a time where we can't place Keyes anywhere.

Donald Tobin is a older gay man

who was living in Riverside.

Decided to go take some stuff to storage one day.

And he was never seen again.

Donald Tobin was last seen July 7th of 2010.

His car was found about a mile from his house.

And all the stuff he was going to take to storage

was still in it.

It was found in a place he would never go.

It's a dog park near the freeway.

And that was it. No one could explain what happened.

We've also got Keyes' online search records,

looking for someone who disappeared

in Riverside County that week

when Donald Tobin disappeared.

We looked at the timeline and it's very tight,

but Keyes was unaccounted for in about 20 hours

surrounding Donald's disappearance.

And as we got further into the investigation,

we realized there was a very good likelihood

that Keyes was trolling gay men online.

Donald was gay.

Keyes, he never came out of the closet, socially,

but he was bisexual and sexually motivated.

I hope I can find how easy it is

to stay concealed there

and how easy it is to get from where the car was found

to this gentleman's house without being seen.

Something that will either make it seem

more certain that it was Keyes

or rule Keyes out.

[Josh] We are at Carlson Dog Park.

This is where Donald Tobin's car was found.

It's a couple miles from his house

in Riverside.

Then from here, we'll do a quick hike

of this trail at Mount Rubidoux.

Get a lay of the land, see are there places to hide.

So you can see up here, there's houses

just over here to the right.

That's a neighborhood Tobin lived in.

He lived walking distance, less than a mile

from where we are now.

And, again, this trail goes

basically right into his backyard.

I think it's about a block from his house,

where he was last seen.

Keyes talked extensively in his interviews

about stalking trail heads and using trail heads.

The other thing that stands out

is there's this cross up there.

Keyes mother was a big fan of extremist religions.

They were in the fundamentalist Christian church

outside of Spokane, Washington.

He's raised essentially off the grid.

He was not introduced to culture,

other people, humanity,

and was surrounded by people who didn't value human life,

who openly hated gay people,

and black people, and brown people, and...

Imagine what that fosters.

He's talked a lot about his animosity

towards organized religion.

Seeing the cross up on the hill, he talked about

wanting to kill people at religious sites and churches.

What most likely would've occurred

is Keyes broke into Donald Tobin's house

and then abducted him in his own car.

Took him to a second location,

where he presumably would've sexually assaulted

and then murdered him.

Took him to a third location to bury him.

And then parked his car here.

Then Keyes could've easily, from here, walked

back to wherever his car was

without ever having been seen.

Keyes wanted to create distance from his crimes

as quickly as possible.

That's very easy for someone

to get from here back onto the freeway

in a short period of time.

So if you look at the big picture,

you've got a trail head.

You've got an environment Keyes is in frequently,

and it's very compelling

I think it warrants further investigation

into the potential that Keyes was involved

in Donald Tobin's disappearance.

I published all of this information

as ethically as possible in the podcast,

and immediately put it out into the world.

If we can get people interested in this case

and get more information out there,

we're likely to get more information back,

which could help us identify victims.

The other thing I look for

is Keyes' buried kill kits,

often near locations where he planned on abducting people.

Either he would literally bury them

or he would hide them in boulders.

Keyes would return to the kill kits.

He told the FBI items he took from his victims

are in some of these kill kits,

so they are very valuable.

[GPS] Head west toward Ramona Expressway.

Just gonna go out to Lake Perris

where we have a very credible sighting

placing Keyes potentially with a kill kit.

This particular tip came in

with the FOIA files I got from the FBI in 2018.

Former FBI agent Bobby Chacon

is gonna meet me out there.

He actually worked the case

and was responsible for finding

one of the kill kits up in Upstate New York.

So this will be my first time going out to Lake Perris.

It's also gonna be the first time

Bobby's been out to Lake Perris,

especially as someone

who's seen places that Keyes has killed before.

I know he's pretty eager

to get his eyes on this place.

- Hey. Hey, Josh. - [Josh] Bobby.

- Good to see you. - [Josh] Thanks for coming out.

No worries. This is my backyard, kinda.

[Josh] Bobby Chacon is one of the first people I talked to

when I started digging into this case

and a really great proponent of the work I do.

I was involved in the Israel Keyes case

when I was with the FBI.

In fact, my dive team went into Alaska

and we recovered his final victim,

Samantha Koenig.

[Josh] This tip came in shortly after Keyes died,

before a lot of the details of the case

had been made public yet.

It was somebody who identified Israel Keyes here

as having met him one day.

[Josh] This guy's out here, fishing, in March 2011.

And Keyes approaches him.

He starts talking about how he's hunting.

And the guy's like, "There's nothing out here to hunt."

And Keyes is like, "I'm here to hunt prey."

He was real creeped out by it.

Keyes asks him,

"if you disappeared, would anyone know?"

He says Keyes comes out of the woods

near the porta potties.

He's got a rusted shovel, a home depot bucket,

and a fishing pole.

Then he sees him later, hiking back up into the woods

with this rusted shovel and a bucket.

He said he immediately knew

this was the man that he had encountered

when he saw Israel Keyes' photograph.

[Bobby] Really? Wow.

[Josh] And so we know Keyes was

active in the area at the time.

And it turns out, close to a year prior,

Donald Tobin disappeared within 20 miles away.

On top of that,

we have Kristine Nicole Hamilton

also found on Keyes' computer.

She disappeared not far from there.

If Keyes was there, what are the greater implications?

[Bobby] Look at all the places you have to hide something

if you were gonna hide a kill kit, right?

You can see all these boulders and these rocks here.

Those are the perfect kind of terrain

that he could dig a small hole behind a rock

and put one of those kits in the ground,

and then he could use the rock as a marker.

He could make a mental note of what that rock looked like

and come back to it.

Now, [chuckling] if you had to search that whole area,

it would literally take you months

because there are so many boulders

and that's why it's such a good location for him to use,

but if I was here with an FBI team,

I'd probably have 100 agents up there,

searching that hill, and it could take us a month.

A lot of serial killers,

they have this ritual that leads up to the killing.

Hiding those kill kits,

picking out places that he would eventually use,

even if he wasn't gonna use it that day,

weeks, months later.

This was all part of who he was

as a predator.

This certainly has a lot of the elements

that some of those other places we know he was at,

like Matanuska.

Lake Matanuska is the lake where Israel Keyes

deposited his last victim, Samantha Koenig,

when he murdered and dismembered her.

A lot of criminals that decide to use water

use it again and again and again

because they feel like it's a place

that evidence goes and never gets recovered.

[Josh] So in terms of credibility on this tip,

- what do you think? - Look,

it fits all the criteria that Keyes used

to pick out not only victims but places.

It definitely puts this place

in contention for highly likely

that something happened here.

So then it's like, "Well,

there's probably a victim somewhere in the area."

It's wild.

[Bobby] I'd be really surprised if there weren't bodies

at the bottom of that lake.

[Josh] Fifty-two-year-old Donald Tobin

was last seen on July 7th.

Police suspect foul play in his disappearance.

We have a Keyes sighting several miles away.

And the details of the disappearance

match everything we know about Keyes' MO.

Every day, I comb through missing persons cases.

And because of the nature of my work,

I'm deeply aware of the gravity

of not only are each of these human beings

who are attached to many other human beings

but there's so many of them.

I keep coming back to the main objective

which is there are families

who don't know what happened to their loved one

and no one else is looking.

I had covered Suzie Lyall's case several years ago.

Her name was found on Keyes' computer.

There are a lot of significant circumstantial evidence

to look at Keyes as being

responsible for her disappearance.

Suzanne Lyall was really intelligent,

really bubbly teenage girl,

who grew up in the greater Albany area.

Suzie was a student at SUNY Albany.

She was really into computers.

She worked at Babbage's

which was, at the time, electronic store, basically,

like computer games and video games.

And you have to remember this is 1998.

She was playing online video games

and really into the digital world

before the rest of us were.

And one night,

Suzie was working at Babbage's.

And after leaving Babbage's,

she was never seen again.

Right around the time she went missing,

Keyes was living in Constable, New York.

Suzie was about Keyes' age

of 19 years old.

She had a very robust online lifestyle.

And that's something that comes up in the Keyes case.

He said he was going down to Albany

while he was living up in Constable,

and going to computer labs and libraries,

and using computers there.

At a certain point,

Suzie told a friend that she felt like

a man had been following her.

And is it possible that the man that Suzanne felt

was following her was, in fact, Keyes?

[GPS] Keep right to take exit three

towards Albany International.

[Josh] What's great about this trip is

we're gonna meet Dr. Kunkle at the airport.

How's it going? We're gonna figure that one out?

Dr. Kunkle is a criminal psychologist,

one of my favorite people.

He's really immersed himself

in all things Keyes.

I got involved with the Lyall case

as part of the St. Rose Cold Case Analysis Center.

We were asked by Mary Lyall, Suzanne Lyall's mother,

to get involved and look at the investigation.

[Josh] If Suzie was a Keyes victim,

it would've been earlier on

in the commission of his crimes.

So he wouldn't have been as sophisticated

as far back as 1997 and 1998,

when his crimes began.

We believe, based on sightings,

that Suzie either disappeared leaving her workplace

or disappeared getting off the bus

at SUNY's campus.

It would be perfectly natural

for someone who looked like Keyes

to be on a college campus.

[Chris] Yeah, he would draw no attention here.

All right, so this is, the bus stop's over here,

over closer to her dorm.

It was a Monday night and she's coming back from work.

There's probably others coming from that direction,

using the bus to get back to campus.

- It probably wasn't desolate. - Yeah.

[Josh] So, I guess, if she comes off the bus stop,

this is one logical route to her dorm.

It could've been an abduction site?

[Chris] Right. Yeah.

[Josh] If you're Keyes, you're looking for a place

where you can lie in wait, and not really be seen.

And there's not really a lot of that.

Basically, as we've been standing here,

everybody who got off the bus and came to this quad

walked up this walkway

or down there through the trees

over there and into the quad.

Yeah.

[Chris] The only other point of access

is right here in front of everyone.

[Josh] Yeah.

[Chris] Which doesn't make any sense at all.

It's a very high-risk environment.

There's no way to track whether she

actually got on the bus.

Back then, they were just showing their ID

as a SUNY student and you just ride.

[Josh] Now that we're here, we see

how many people are around

and what a short distance it is.

- [Chris] Right. - It seems more likely

that she went missing at Crossgates Mall

rather than here.

[Chris] We know she was at the mall.

That's irrefutable.

She worked that day, and her manager saw her leave

and said he knows what exit she took.

[Josh] During the same time that Suzanne Lyall disappeared,

just miles from where she was last seen,

a woman encountered a man in a Marshalls parking lot

that she believed was Keyes.

What stood out to us was the things he was asking her.

"How old are you?

If you left right now, would anyone notice?"

Some blatantly disturbing questions.

These come up over and over and over again

in tips and places where Keyes was.

We can place him in the Albany area

that spring, looking to abduct someone

from the mall parking lot.

[Chris] Suzanne Lyall was working at the Crossgates Mall

on the night of her disappearance.

[Josh] More than likely, she disappeared at the mall,

walking from Babbage's to the bus stop.

Right around the time Suzanne Lyall went missing,

Keyes was looking on enlisting in the Army,

and the Army recruitment office

was two miles from where she was last seen.

This is where Keyes enlisted in the Army.

He, at that point, was really disagreeing with his parents.

They were very anti-government,

so it would make sense for someone rebelling,

also someone who had a desire to hurt people,

to join the Army.

Joining the Army gives him the paycheck.

Right.

And license to kill.

And now maybe he's like, "Okay, it's time.

I can start committing crimes in this area

'cause I'm gonna be leaving soon."

He told the FBI that he planned his murders around travels

because, after a girl was abducted,

no one's gonna look at the guy who goes off to the Army

or left at 4:00 in the morning to go on a vacation.

He wanted to create as much distance,

physically and psychologically,

between himself and his crimes.

So the Marshalls location to here is interesting.

Basically, just right across the street.

It doesn't seem like he was actually trying to abduct her.

It almost seems like he was ramping up,

he was testing to decide what he'll do next.

But what killed me is walking out here

and the first thing you see is a cemetery.

[Chris] I know.

[Josh] He told the FBI cemetery outbuildings

were easy to gain access to

and they were great places to rape and murder victims.

And walkable through the woods

to Six Mile Waterworks Park,

where there's a reservoir and tons of outbuildings.

[Chris] Yeah.

When you bring up Six Mile Waterworks,

it's the only body of water

within this three, four mile radius

between the two malls, the campus,

parking lot.

[Josh] And Six Mile Waterworks Park

is in the center of all four points,

Colonie Center, Marshalls, SUNY, and Babbage's.

You can walk through the park from any four of those points

without really being seen.

The fact that he could walk through that park unseen

to all four destinations is fascinating.

You had said they had searched it pretty extensively, right?

[Chris] Well, they said they did,

but I believe they didn't use dogs

and they never checked the water.

[Josh] And at this point, we know Keyes

liked to submerge his victims' remains in water.

If it was Keyes,

Suzie's final resting place

is possibly Waterworks Park.

[Chris] The timing of her abduction

and his being in the area,

and then the other signature Keyes offense patterns,

that it just makes sense.

[Josh] There was a lot of compelling evidence there.

But we can't say for sure if we've solved the case.

I don't think in terms of justice

or closure,

'cause I don't think there can be justice or closure

in family upheaval.

I think about Suzie Lyall a lot in this regard.

Imagine being known worldwide

only for the worst thing to ever happen to you.

And when people wanna talk about Suzie,

that's what they wanna talk about.

The first time I met Dr. Kunkle,

I was invited to speak

at an event in Saratoga Springs.

Mary Lyall, Suzie's mother, was gonna be there

and I got to meet her.

And it was so humbling,

to meet Suzie's mom

and hear her talk about Suzie.

It felt like I got to know who she was

from the person who knew her the best.

So in a sense,

if there is an obligation,

it is to treat these people like more than

just the worst thing that ever happened to them.

Both Chris and I are committed to investigating

until there are no stones left to turn over.

- [Chris] All right, thanks, man. - All right.

Yeah, take care, Chris.

[Josh] Until then, I find myself

obsessively driving the back roads

of Berkshire County and Upstate New York,

looking for something.

In addition to the Suzanne Lyall case,

there are others that I'm quite confident were Keyes',

but I still would like a little more reassurances on.

The first two are are Kami and Eugene.

Kami was a high school student living in Oregon.

She was 16.

She had just met this boyfriend, Eugene.

And they decided to go for a walk out

on the Oregon coast.

And no one ever saw them again.

The police quickly leaned into the theory

they had been swept out to sea.

And, ultimately, the police stopped looking into it.

Keyes had told the FBI that,

following his discharge from the Army,

he had abducted a male-female couple

from either Washington State or one of its surrounding states.

I've looked into it extensively.

There's only one case that matches that description.

And it's Kami and Eugene's case.

Obviously, since the first episode, I...

I've had family members reach out to me,

which is great,

because that is an honor and a privilege

and quite humbling,

to have those experiences and relationships,

and get to know these people

and know that they value the work I'm doing.

I'm always anxious about covering someone's case

because I don't know

how the family's going to feel about it,

and I was appreciative that you reached out to me.

I don't know. You've done a really good job

of bringing her to life

and making sure she stays in the forefront

of people's memories,

and it's really wonderful.

Thank you, yeah, she was a special person.

She was.

I've reached out to Lincoln County.

I've not heard back,

but I keep hoping the FBI will release

more of the redacted files at some point,

and I think that's the best thing we can wish for.

And I cannot thank you enough.

Seriously.

I have done very little,

so I did the bare minimum.

No. No. Hands down, you've done so much.

I'm just grateful

that you want closure for the families,

whether it's my family or other people's families.

"We've also seen that while his memory for locations

is startlingly accurate...

It's the first time I've had a job

that I believe in the work that I'm doing.

I've even had law enforcement

reach out to me and be like,

"Hey, we have this missing persons case.

Do you think it's Keyes?"

The most infuriating thing about investigating Israel Keyes

is, without a body or biometric evidence,

it's nearly impossible to truly confirm

he's responsible for any missing person.

There are all these families

who don't know what happened to their loved ones.

At this point, I am invested

and I care immensely.

Maybe a small price to pay for that is like,

"Yeah, a serial killer lives rent-free

in the back of my brain for the rest of my life.

When I started putting the podcast together

and writing the first season, I was very compelled

by that line, like,

"I don't wanna be wrapped up in all this true crime bull..."

It's what I ultimately named the podcast.

I thought it was a nice... you to Keyes,

to be like, "Hey, not only is the media covering your case

but we're using your words to do it."

More and more people are learning about Keyes.

And we're getting more and more information because of that,

which could help us identify victims

which will help bring some resolve to families

who for now, over a decade,

don't know what happened to their loved ones.

[music]