Original subtitles

Demarcation Line - Do not cross

On November 11th, on the French German demarcation line at 7 a.m.,

under orders from the FiJhrer, the Wehrmacht

crossed unoccupied France to the Mediterranean.

This is a response to Anglo-American aggression in French North Africa

preventing the enemy from landing on the southern coast of France.

At first, we called them the Fritzes, then the Jerries,

the Krauts, the Boches,

the Beetles, the Verdigris.

Public imagination was very fertile back then.

Why call them Beetles?

Because beetles eat potatoes and leave nothing behind.

The Germans also left nothing behind.

- Not even potatoes? - No potatoes.

What can you say in French?

I learned the rules of etiquette, greetings.

I learned to make myself understood, especially to young ladies.

To go for a walk: "Excuse me, miss, would you care to go for a walk?"

And what else?

Good day, sir. Good evening, sir. Good night, ma'am.

MISS...

This afternoon, there were concerts in the occupied cities.

THE SORROW AND THE PITY

Chronicle of a French city under the Occupation

Part 2: THE CHOICE

- Best of three? - OK.

Of course, races were rare then.

In 1940, racing was almost obsolete.

It was only in 1941, 1942, and 1943 that racing really began.

I started in 1943.

- In 1943? - That's right.

I started in 1943 in the Dunlop final with Bobet.

- We were in the same class. - Is that right?

The class of '45 was pretty big.

There was Casara, Lazaridés, Bobet...

You must understand that back then, and I'm talking about cycling,

it was the only way people had of getting around.

You started off your adult life in a rather difficult period.

For example, what about girls?

- Girls? - How was dating under Occupation?

It's true that there was a problem. First of all, we were young.

On Sundays or in the evenings, I'avenue des États-Unis was packed

with people "doing the avenue," as we called it.

From the Place de Jaude to Gaillard, that was the place to be.

For a young man like yourself, was it particularly irritating

to see a girl on a German soldier's arm?

- You must have seen some. - Of course.

It was considered annoying everywhere, not just in Clermont.

- Of course. - It was generally frowned upon

to see a woman accompanied by a German.

Some women dated Germans

but they paid for that later, after the Liberation.

Some paid a very high price indeed for having dated Germans.

That's for sure.

There weren't many Germans in Clermont, as it wasn't occupied.

Weren't the Germans here as of 1942?

No.

No, we only saw the Germans through the Resistance.

Clermont was never occupied.

"No, no, we didn't see any Germans!"

We've been told there were very few Germans in Clermont.

I saw too many of them. I saw them everywhere.

I saw them in my waking hours, and I saw them in my sleep.

Around their neck, they all wore ribbons with some medal attached.

I saw them everywhere.

All I could see was helmets and Germans.

How come others didn't see them?

They must have been short-sighted

because Lord knows they were everywhere. You couldn't miss them.

I had participated in the Russian campaign.

In January 1942, I was hurt. My feet froze.

I was declared unfit for service in the East

which is why I returned to France that same year.

Service in France was humiliating for an active serviceman like me.

For us, the East was the winning ticket.

Yes, but you didn't win.

No, we didn't, but we couldn't have known that.

The major of my regime understood my feelings.

He said to me,

"My dear Tausend, all you have to do is play the fool,

"and you'll be back in no time."

But it didn't work, so I stayed in Clermont-Ferrand till the end.

- Why? Couldn't you play stupid? - No, I wasn't very good at that.

In late 1942, everything was quiet in Clermont.

We were busy training new recruits,

especially for anti-partisan operations.

The people in Clermont liked us. We got along.

French or German, it made no difference to them.

My friends and I lived in a hotel in Royat.

I think I still have some photos.

Royat is north of Clermont-Ferrand.

I had to put up with them.

But I must say that as far as hotel guests go, I can't complain.

You say that you had to put up with them.

- Were they hard to put up with? - No, it wasn't that.

No, it's just that they kept me from working.

I would have preferred real guests. After all, I wasn't paid.

As German soldiers, we were able to get whatever we wanted.

Cheese, ham, salami... Everything was available on the black market.

Did you ever get the feeling that the people you patronised,

for example, shopkeepers, hoteliers and the like,

were compromising themselves in the eyes of other Frenchmen?

Not at all. At least, not in 1942.

The situation somewhat deteriorated later,

when the so-called "war of partisans" began.

I think I have a photo of that period, in early 1943

when we had to put up barbed wire.

For example, in broad daylight, they threw grenades at our soldiers

who were marching to one of our cinemas.

I don't know if they were thrown from rooftops or what.

But there were eight dead and 40 wounded.

An hour before the 6:00 show, they came along

accompanied by armed sentries.

The soldiers were unarmed, but the sentries were armed.

Then the terrorists threw the bombs from high up on the city walls.

You can see them there.

The wounded fell, the ambulances came and the show went on.

A terrible retaliation followed.

They burned down upper Clermont in search of terrorists.

Many young men were taken.

Now obviously, we had to do something about the situation.

The partisans had, of course, disappeared.

Did you know that many people were arrested on the Place de Jaude,

many young people who were deported?

No, I didn't realise that.

All I know is that there was a Gestapo unit in Clermont

which terrified the French.

Or so they always told us.

But they were there to protect us.

The Germans around here would always tell us the same old story.

German-French co-operation is the solution, they'd say.

They were convinced of it. I don't know.

- Maybe they were sincere. - It's possible. I don't know.

They were almost too nice, yes, too nice

because they knew we didn't like them, so they tried hard.

They'd almost always give their seat in a tram to an elderly passenger.

And what about girls?

One night, Mrs Mioche, who was always very strict on the subject

saw a soldier come in after midnight with two young ladies.

Mrs Mioche wouldn't let the girls in.

As they continued insisting, she went and got their captain.

The captain came down and said Mrs Mioche was right.

- They must not have been very happy. - No.

But what could they say? He was their captain. They had to obey.

And Mrs Mioche was happy with the outcome of the situation.

- So she was happy... - Yes, but she was still afraid

that they would come in anyhow.

- She told them, "This isn't a..." - A brothel.

And the next day, they requisitioned a house across the street,

hence solving their problem.

As is always the case in a war, when soldiers are far from home

brothels were set up.

There were many in Clermont-Ferrand.

The Clermont girls wouldn't give us the time of day on the streets.

And when you weren't on the streets?

It's true that they were much friendlier at night.

The situation deteriorated when the Michelin factory was bombed.

You know, the famous French tyre factory, which worked for us.

The Americans aimed badly and dropped their bombs everywhere.

And naturally, people blamed us.

I think by late 1942, early 1943,

the Resistance was busy everywhere.

English pilots would bomb France. Didn't that bother you?

No, they didn't bomb people, they bombed German-occupied factories

and that's all.

We were at war.

We were allies against the Germans. It was the point of the Resistance.

I even had to sign a contract in London.

I was registered in London.

I still remember my registration number: 61,055.

I was registered in London.

The last time I actually flew in one of these

was in May 1944 when we were shot down over occupied France.

- Is it harder to get in one today? - I have put on a couple of stone.

You don't look very French. Did you have a moustache back then?

No, this is the point. I did have a moustache

but I was asked to shave it off

as there didn't seem to be many Frenchmen with moustaches about.

They supplied me with an old jacket, not exactly Savile Row style,

but it served its purpose...

And a beret. We cut the tops off our boots to make shoes.

Did you find the people of France helpful?

Certainly. People would risk their lives for you.

They knew if the Germans got them, they would be shot without a trial.

I remember Mr Saugay, who put me up for quite some time.

I didn't know cigarettes were so rare in France.

In England, there were lots.

But he gave me 20 cigarettes a clay: Gauloises.

Sometimes, I'd even ask for more.

I only realised he was a smoker, too

when I saw him one night cleaning up the ashtrays

and smoking my cigarette stubs.

- We'd go to the woods. - Over there.

Over there, in the woods.

- And where did you keep the weapons? - 'm my father's house, over there.

That's where we'd clean the weapons we received.

- How about hiding places? - There were some in the woods.

There were some in the vineyards, in the woods

- and over there. - I bet there are still some around.

This isn't a very big area, so how did you manage?

People must have found out.

What was the reaction of villagers who weren't in the Resistance?

- Well, they... - They shut their mouths.

They kept very quiet.

First, I was taken by the police

then I was taken to Clermont

and then I was put in prison.

First, I was put in the Clermont prison

and then I was taken to the prison in La Mélisse.

- But I only stayed one clay, then I... - You should've stayed in Clermont.

Next, I was taken to 2 bis.

I was sent twice in one day, and again the next day, and the next.

- I went five times. - Were you tortured?

- Were you beaten? - It was no party, let me tell you.

These gentlemen had found twelve parachutes

in our house and they wanted to know how this came to be.

- But you didn't say? - No.

I was liberated, we were liberated, in full flight.

They'd been making us walk for three days

when the Germans abandoned us in a little region.

I'll never forget it. It was called Itsdorf, in Saxony, by the Elbe.

- Do you have any old photos? - No, I was too ugly.

No one wanted to take my picture.

- Why? How much did you weigh? - 92 pounds.

- Why didn't you take any pictures? - I didn't want to.

I didn't think anyone should see me like that.

- You were waiting to be... - More handsome.

Yes, I saw a lot of suffering.

I saw a convoy arrive.

I think it came from Hungary.

Out of 50,000 people, not one...

I remember I was designated to bring them some soup.

They were close to the cinema.

There was a cinema, a brothel, and everything in Buchenwald.

It's the truth.

I brought them this soup, and they fell upon it.

All 50,000 of them literally fell upon this soup

spilling it everywhere. They were down on their knees in the mud.

There must have been at least eight inches of mud on the ground.

Well, they ate out of the mud.

And four days later, they were all gunned down.

That was Buchenwald.

Did you notice any difference

between the various levels of French society?

Most definitely. I can honestly say that the people who helped me most

were the railway workers.

And, though it's hard to admit now, the Communists.

French workers were wonderful people.

They would do anything. They'd give you their last penny.

I stayed with these people, I stayed in one room.

There was only one room and a kitchen, and I slept in the kitchen

in a town called Juvisy, near Paris.

It was extremely dangerous territory back then.

They would lend me some overalls

because every day, I'd walk along

and copy down the various electric train lines

because we wanted to bomb them.

This wasn't really my job. My job was the radio.

But I helped the others when things were going slowly.

And so they lent me their overalls.

You've mentioned the workers, but what about the French bourgeoisie

- from what you've seen of them? - The bourgeoisie...

I must say, were very neutral. They didn't help me much.

No, not the bourgeoisie.

I was impressed by the people,

the waiters in the restaurants, the cashiers in the grocery shops.

There were always go-betweens in these shops,

but I don't know if they knew what they were doing.

And we never explained what the danger was.

But the workers were always able to provide me with what I needed,

whereas the bourgeoisie was scared.

They had more to lose.

And I think that in life, no matter where you go

people often consider what they have to lose.

I had nothing to lose. That's why I did it.

I had no parents, I wasn't married, so what did it matter?

Denis Rake was a boy.

Actually, he's older than I am.

He was a guy who had faith.

He was very patriotic, with a very deep sense of duty.

He was amazingly brave.

He was incredibly shy, and he hated firearms,

but we needed people like him,

as they were brave enough to overcome their fear.

It's true that deep down inside,

I wanted to prove that I was just as brave

as my friends who had become pilots and so forth.

And as a homosexual, at that moment in my life

it was one of my fears that I'd lack the courage to do such things.

In that sense, you shared the prejudice of others.

You felt that being homosexual would make you less brave than the others?

Yes, I was afraid of that.

- Afraid? - Yes.

Do you think the fact that you were a man of the theatre made you more inclined

- to go underground? - Very much so.

I was a transvestite singer in Paris in "Le Grand Ecart" for three months,

and in "La Cave Caucasienne" for a long time.

We supplied the group we had formed with parachutes from London

with the aim of preventing the passage of German troops.

And we sent Denis Rake as a radio operator.

"The Mont Mouchet," like most of the Maquis groups

consisted of members from the forced labour group

which was based in Auvergne.

What we didn't know was that on the night Denis Rake arrived in France,

the Germans made an all-out attack

and Denis Rake landed smack in the middle of the battle.

He spent the night in a tree, which he climbed down the next day

in order to send us a message saying he'd arrived rather unexpectedly

and that all was well.

Gaspar was in charge of the Maquis.

I must say that I'm very proud of my pseudonym "Gaspar"

because friends, as you saw earlier

wouldn't have called me Mr Coulaudon.

Coulaudon is a well-known name, but in my job, it doesn't matter.

It's an everyday name 30 years later.

Our mission was to find a Maquis led by a man named Gaspar.

- In Mont Mouchet? - That's right.

He was an incredible man, and he put up an impressive fight.

But he was greedy:

greedy for glory, greedy for everything.

We had the feeling that Gaspar had won the approval,

the love and affection of the people

the patriots that followed him, an unquestionably great leader.

This is where the Resistance began in Auvergne.

This is where we formed our first group.

Back then, we had a dog we had named de Gaulle.

De Gaulle latched on to us and stuck with us during both winters.

What is that monument?

It was built in memory of our first man to be killed.

When the Germans surrounded the village,

we couldn't get in because of the snow.

We were all on exercise, except four young men

who stayed behind because they hadn't healed.

And these four young men were taken by the Germans.

Early that morning, they followed the less snowy train tracks

checked out the lie of the land

and headed to our cottage, thinking they'd get us all.

There were four young men, one of whom came out barefoot in the snow,

a 19-year-old boy from Volvic, a village we'll see later.

We called him Milamon. A relative of his, Jean Lainé,

tried to machine-gun down the Germans, who then killed him.

We found his body strewn across the snow.

He died immediately.

A second boy was killed in his bed.

He didn't even have time to get up before being taken.

There were two young men left. One hid in a trunk, he was so small.

He was 19 years old.

- What was the boy's name again? - Chevalier.

No, it was Fifteen Grams. Fifteen Grams or Four Pounds.

Fifteen Grams.

That was all the boy weighed.

He was also taken here.

One thing I find appalling is when people who were Pétain supporters

come up and tell me what they did for the Resistance.

Sometimes, it's unreal. "Oh Mr Gaspar,

“if only you knew what we did, what I did for the Resistance..."

Go ahead, pal, tell me all about it.

I try to stay calm. I'm a salesman and I want to sell my product.

The company doesn't pay me to do politics and pick fights.

So sometimes I find myself obliged to listen to a song and dance

of some guy who shows me a drawer and gets his wife to confirm

that there was indeed a revolver in that drawer during the war

a revolver which he was supposedly ready to use on the Germans.

Only he never actually used it. History doesn't lie.

As you know, I was a non-commissioned officer in the French army.

I can see your question coming. Didn't I skip a few ranks?

But what could I have done?

In fact, one man, a friend of mine

was saying in the car earlier,

"Didn't you go to school?" No, I laughed.

The best I did, in the words of the former mayor of Combronde

was the school of crime, which is nothing more

than our mandatory answer to those who were killing our friends.

- There's one thing you're forgetting. - What?

When de Gaulle, from London, invited every French officer,

every last lazy good-for-nothing to join the Maquis,

if they had answered his call...

If they had, the Resistance could have avoided certain mistakes.

They were hiding in the woods like children from the Germans.

They didn't want to work for them.

These admirable patriots could definitely have used

the help and leadership of the French officers

who were busy warming their feet by the fire...

Don't try to deny it.

I know many people who are guilty.

That's the truth.

Many people I knew just stayed at home.

I asked them, at the time, why they didn't follow their friends' lead.

They claimed they didn't know how to get in touch with the Resistance.

Somehow, an old fool like me knew how and they didn't.

If we could do it again, would you still make me a colonel,

or would you bring me down to staff sergeant or adjutant?

If I've understood correctly, Colonel Gaspar wants to know if

25 years down the road, you'd still be willing to trust him.

Exactly. I believe that it's because of men like him

that we accomplished something. No thanks to those who stayed home.

- Mark my words. - This isn't a referendum here.

He mixes everything up. I'm trying to talk politics.

But it's what I wanted to hear. Today, a new type of neo-Nazism

is slowly rearing its ugly head

which is why I feel it's important we participate in these interviews.

We said "nyet" because we thought and continue to think

that we must not mix things up, as the veterans of Verdun have done.

Those men were heroes, but they've been caught in a trap.

I believe there's a risk that either Nazism will re-emerge,

or some form of Nazism under a different name.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Hang on a minute. There's one thing we often tend to forget.

The Germans were Nazis. Fine.

But were the French any better than the Nazis?

- Stop it. - I had a woman shot,

a 60-year-old woman who had sold me to the Gestapo.

She sold me for money. So did my son, for thirty pieces of silver.

The people in Auvergne, in a country where we unwisely took risks,

like in Brittany, Vercors, or anywhere else

who wanted to find the Resistance had no problem finding it,

if that person really wanted to fight,

or even to fight in the underground without necessarily going all out.

Our goal, first and foremost, was to attempt

to create a climate of psychological fear for the Germans

to keep them in a state of fear to cut off communications lines,

and hopefully blow everything up.

That was it. The goal wasn't to kill the Germans.

Why bother killing 10, 20, 50, or even 100 Germans?

Come on. Please. Not at all.

Our goal was basically to prevent them...

If you don't mind, I'd like to add something.

Our goal was never to be an army facing another army.

And yet, what eventually happened,

due to ever-increasing enthusiasm,

was that we ended up with 10,000 armed men.

Allow me to give an example.

A detachment of our troops near Clermont

passes in front of 20-odd peasants digging up potatoes.

Suddenly, they all drop their tools, dash towards their guns

and proceed to shoot 14 of our men dead.

- Do you consider that a partisan war? - No.

For me, partisans are people who wear armbands, helmets and the like.

What happened in that potato field was assassination.

You must admit that we were obliged to react.

I'd even say that it was our duty, as officers

to demand security measures for our troops.

After Liberation, I was given the task of guarding German prisoners.

I supervised a whole unit,

but I never hurt them and I never yelled at them.

If I'd treated them the way they'd treated me

I wouldn't have been any better than them.

And I didn't want that.

These old guys were all veterans from WWI, the Shupo, the police.

What could we possibly do with men like that?

They hadn't hurt us.

The people who had hurt us had taken off at high speed.

They were long gone.

But these old guys had clone us no harm.

I remember one of these men had broken his gun.

This man gave me an apple as we were marching.

We'd been marching for three days,

and as we walked along, the old guy slipped me an apple.

See what I mean?

That was the day we'd had one loaf of bread for 22 men.

In the afternoon, of that same clay, at 3:00, we were liberated.

To be a member of the Resistance, did you need political training?

- No. - What was your family background?

My family background was always rather left wing.

I was never an extremist, but I was always left wing.

- So what were you then? - I was a Socialist.

I'm still a Socialist today.

And I'm proud of it.

Although the Party has a few people which really should be...

They're people like me, who are getting old.

Why get 80-year-old people to govern our country?

We should put them out to pasture.

People say that some peasants got rich during the war.

There are some.

There are some, that's for sure.

Maybe it would have been better to get rich on the black market.

Then I'd be rich and everyone would like me.

But I was in the Resistance, so they think I'm dumb.

And rightly so!

Do you think that having been in the Resistance

gives you a good or bad reputation

in the minds of others?

I think it has always given us a bad reputation.

Because when we were active, they called us terrorists

- Or bandits. - Yes, bandits.

- Many people still believe this. - Some even called us profiteers.

Yes, because we did parachuting.

There were some people who claimed to be in the Resistance

and took advantage of this to steal and loot.

- That's why many people think... - They were thieves.

Weren't there two types of Resistance?

There was the anti-German side, and then the anti-Nazi side.

For us, German or Nazi, they were both the same.

They were one and the same.

I used to feel that we should distinguish between the German people and the Nazis.

But after I was taken prisoner, thrashed, and fed by catapult...

I'm sorry, but I reacted like any hungry man

and considered them one and the same.

There were some Germans who weren't Nazis in their heart.

But those Germans were in the concentration camps.

Don't forget that concentration camps opened in Germany in 1933.

All Germans were Nazis.

Any Communists in Germany were sent to the camps.

And when you met a German in a camp,

it wasn't like hurting a Communist.

- Did any Communists join the Nazis? - Of course not.

But I wasn't about to ask them. I don't speak German.

The Germans we fought in Auvergne were all Nazis.

- Or members of the SS. - Nazis or members of the SS.

- That was it. - Did you kill any Krauts?

Probably, but we didn't see it. When you are in a hole

standing behind your machine gun, you don't know what you've hit.

And bad Frenchmen?

I knew many bad Frenchmen, but I never killed any of them.

- And the rest of you? - Me neither.

I was already a black sheep, the odd man out.

I had married an American divorcée, a Grossfeld to boot.

I had done many things: I had smoked opium,

I had written many extraordinary articles,

and I was considered a black sheep, one who would never succeed.

It's always a shock for society to see a black sheep succeed.

Despite my weakness for Communists,

the day I became a minister, my family accepted me.

But what did I find in the Resistance?

The most important thing for me, other than dignity

was that it was truly a classless society.

The problems of everyday life ceased to exist.

We were very free.

What I'm going to say may sound mean,

but I think that to be in the Resistance, you had to be maladjusted.

We were free in the sense that, as outcasts of society,

the organisation of society no longer concerned us in the least.

You can't imagine a real Resistance activist being a full-fledged minister,

or a colonel or a businessman. Such people have succeeded.

They would succeed with Germans, Englishmen or Russians.

But we were failures and I was one of those failures.

We had quixotic feelings that are so typical of failures.

Some people are Resistants by nature.

In other words, some people are naturally headstrong.

Others, on the contrary, try to adapt to the circumstances,

and get what they can out of it.

If you are a Resistant over everything and nothing, you're exaggerating.

But if you accept everything, you're lying.

There were six of us:

a gas-company worker, a pimp, a public transport worker,

a butcher from Quipavas and others like that.

On the quay of Port-Vendres,

I found men who were simply men who had fled like others had fled,

like I had fled, who asked me what they could do.

I said, "Why not join the Resistance?"

I went down along the coast until I reached,

in St-Jean-de-Luz, an English ship with orders to take no Frenchmen,

only a Polish division on its way to London.

So I said, "Let's go to headquarters,

"the 5th Marine Bureau, where we can do something."

And so I went to Collioure.

The office had been set up in a brothel,

because there was nothing else available in the area.

They said, "Why resist? You're mad."

And they demobilised me.

I went to Marseilles, where, with a few men,

I realised we had to fight in France, not abroad.

We were all aware of the fact that we were appealing to the patriots,

who saw that we were people who actually fought,

whereas many other people were just full of talk about resisting.

We weren't talkers, we were fighters.

The patriots had seen the amazing gesture of a militant Communist,

who was perhaps unaware of the effect this gesture would have.

Just before being shot by the Nazis in Chateaubriand,

the metallurgist Jean-Pierre Timbaud cried out,

"Long live the German Communist Party!"

And that, you see...

Why are you anti-Communist, Colonel?

The main reason is that I'm a Catholic.

I know they helped the Resistance,

and I'm also aware of the fact that

they participated, for the most part,

in their own interests,

in order to defend Russia,

Communist Russia, which is their motherland.

Russia is their motherland?

Although they claim to be international,

Russia is, after all, the country that defends their ideals.

Our main disagreement was the following:

Should we aim to be a reserve army,

or an army that grows strong through battle?

Both sides had different opinions.

How did you manage to reconcile these differences in the Resistance?

I wasn't very good at it.

Indeed, as regional leader in Limoges,

I never once made contact with the Communists.

- Although you were supposed to? - Although I was ordered to.

- And the order came from London? - Yes.

The army ranks generally viewed us as dangerous people,

who were prepared to shed blood for reasons they felt inadequate.

We were surprised by London's insistence

that we join together in fighting for the Resistance.

We felt that it would be dangerous to arm these Communists.

After all, some of these Communists

were not very commendable people.

We feared this would lead to problems after Liberation.

From what I've understood, you were in charge of the assault groups.

Did you participate in any assaults?

I did some sabotage,

but I never assaulted anyone. What I mean is

that I never deliberately shot down a German in the street.

- But you would have? - Yes, had it been my job,

but that was not my responsibility.

You say the Communists were not very commendable people.

For example, some of the Communists they had recruited

were condemned people, for example.

It was due to these conditions

that we praised the action taken by Pierre George, Colonel Fabien,

who killed a German in the metro.

People had to get used to fighting.

There were two ways of seeing things.

All over Paris, there were lists of those who had been killed.

Either you could give in to despair, and resign yourself to do nothing,

or you could fight.

The army would give orders to attack,

whereas the Communists were in favour of immediate guerrilla warfare,

in the form of assassinations or sabotage.

They were disobeying the orders we'd been sent from London.

We thought to ourselves

that orders of that nature shouldn't be obeyed,

and we, of all people, used one of de Gaulle's sayings,

which we twisted around, and said,

"National insurrection goes hand in hand with liberation."

The Resistance was a permanent guerrilla war.

It was three guys who intercepted a German convoy on the road,

threw three grenades, shot two rounds, and took off in the wilderness.

And this proved to be the only way of training and keeping fighters.

Do you have the impression that France today

has been somewhat determined

by the way it was during WWII, or at least from '39 to '44?

I'm convinced of it.

The proof of this is that de Gaulle began his life,

his political life,

by a breach of trust.

This breach of trust was rather odd.

I think that if in 1940

we had had the same referendum we had a few days ago, on April 27,

some 90% of the French population

would have voted for Pétain and a quiet German occupation.

So he was at complete odds with history.

The Free French do not accept this defeat.

The Free French do not consent to the idea that,

on the pretext of European unification,

their country should be used by the enemy

as a departure point for attacking other peoples,

who are fighting for the same ideals.

Until the day we met the main player...

until the clay I said, "I want to see de Gaulle,"

it didn't go so well.

I found myself facing a man who astounded me,

because he was already quite simply the King of France.

- But his subjects didn't know him. - He was a king without subjects.

There are two things we still haven't fully understood today

concerning the position of de Gaulle and the Free French.

In England at that time, there were several foreign governments,

but they were all governments,

whereas de Gaulle and the Free French were not.

All the other powers here in London

had come with their governments: the Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians.

Their governments in London were the same as the ones at home.

But this wasn't the case in France, as Pétain was still in power.

Is that not the worst accusation of Pétain and the Vichy administration

that one could possibly make?

After all, France is the only country guilty of this.

Yes, that's true.

At the heart of the debate,

it is true that de Gaulle, because his means were so limited,

because his army was so small,

and the territories behind him so secondary,

that he really had no other choice

than to be extremely rigid,

to be a stickler for the rights he represented.

- His pride became a weapon. - It's true that his pride, tenacity

and rather inflexible nature did not make things any easier.

But I do think that politically thinking, he was right.

Understand that politically, he was right.

Pierre Mendés-France, flying officer in '39,

was accused of desertion by the Vichy regime,

and sentenced by the Clermont military tribunal.

The former prime minister managed to escape

and arrived in London via Switzerland.

I must admit that what happened in France had traumatised me greatly.

I had a difficult time getting over the insult

of having been accused of desertion in face of the enemy.

I felt a need to fight, to prove that I was a fighter.

When I arrived in London, my choice was clear.

- Because of the accusation of desertion? - Yes.

That night, I found myself facing de Gaulle for the first time.

He questioned me thoroughly on the state of France,

as he was obviously on the lookout for information,

and wanted to know what people were thinking,

how the French felt towards the Resistance.

I must admit that meeting de Gaulle was

for me an overwhelming thing.

It was a deeply moving event.

And I must say that our first meeting went very well.

Wasn't he cold? They say that when people came from France...

- That's true. - He was happy, but...

No, it's true.

He was a shy man,

and it was this shy nature of his that was at the root of his cold manner

of welcoming certain people.

He wasn't cold to me, maybe because we had a long conversation.

What was the general spirit of the Free French Fighters?

It was... There's no denying that it was a very unusual army.

It was very limited in number, because of the situation.

They all arrived feeling, and let's not mince words, rather humiliated,

because the ruling French government, Vichy,

had signed the armistice and abandoned England.

They didn't know how welcomed they would be in England.

But they were welcomed with open arms.

Every one of them felt a deep sense of gratitude

for the simple fact that the English welcomed them.

And then there was a sense of admiration for the English people,

who were the only ones to stand up to the storm.

What was unique about the French pilots

was the ever-present debate

on whether or not we had the right to bomb France.

The Lorraine squadron was a unit

whose planes didn't have a very large field of action.

So there was, unfortunately, no way we could bomb Berlin.

But the targets we were given were often Belgium, Holland or France.

And that was really a cruel dilemma.

It was this preoccupation, this haunting worry,

which led us to progressively specialise

in a type of bombing which had the fewest hitches,

to use the term they employed then.

It was a type of hedge-hopping. We would bomb at very low altitudes,

which was much riskier, but allowed us greater accuracy.

England victorious?

Half of its regular navy has sunk,

as has a third of its wartime navy.

England has lost Europe.

It is losing the very little influence it had on the Soviets,

and it is losing its influence on India.

England has been defeated.

England's only way out is to call in the Bolsheviks.

But as a Frenchman, I'd be afraid they'd stab us in the back.

PRESIDENT LAVAL SPEAKS OUT

"IF GERMANY DOESN'T WIN, BOLSHEVISM WILL"

My father-in-law's philosophy,

the one often shared with the family,

was that the only realistic solution

was for our country to gain time

while Germany got increasingly involved in their war

against the Russians,

a war which, in his opinion, would last for years,

and in so doing, we would allow France

to maintain its position in the world, as well as its empire.

On April 21, 1942,

in an appeal to France, the head of government stated to his listeners:

I have meditated on what I am now saying in my village,

in the land of Auvergne, to which I remain very attached.

But the time spent in the privacy of his own family was limited,

and as the clock struck eight, he had to return to work.

He spent a few more moments with the locals of the area

who come every morning to chat with him.

I truly believe that the majority of Frenchmen today

realise that Pierre Laval did all he could to defend them.

You've seen for yourself, as you visited the village today,

and interviewed people who saw Pierre Laval at work,

that not one single person

is willing to accuse Laval of any outrageous crime.

- You knew my father-in-law well? - Yes.

We knew each other quite well during the period of 1936 to 1944.

The last time I saw him was on the eve of his permanent move to Paris.

I never saw him again.

But in Vichy, I used to see him every day.

We would discuss our problems, from mineral water to sawmills.

- Did you ever discuss politics? - Never.

No, we never discussed politics.

Why did the whole of France condemn him at that moment?

The whole of France didn't condemn him.

Certainly not.

Sometimes I'd visit him in the castle,

and appeal to him on behalf of my prisoners.

Would you come here?

- Hello, sir. - Hello.

These gentlemen are in Châteldon making a film on the Occupation.

- How old were you when war began? - Twenty-five years old.

- What regiment were you in? - The 28th Artillery Regiment.

- And what happened? - We were taken prisoner on June 20.

And then, after some hard times,

as a favour from the President, Mr Laval, I had the privilege

of being repatriated to Châteldon.

And I thank both him and the Countess.

In what year did you return?

I returned on October 17, 1941.

It was certainly a big favour as some had to stay until '45 or longer.

So it was lucky to be taken prisoner if you were from Châteldon?

We were the privileged few.

Today, Rene' Bousquet, from the Ministry of the Interior,

picked up the head of the government

in order to make full use of the 20 minutes from Châteldon to Vichy.

The secretary general made his report,

and the man in charge knows the decisions he must soon take.

I say that if the Germans had only had their own Gestapo,

they couldn't have caused half the harm they did.

Yes, they killed people in the street,

but it was the French police who helped.

If the French police had not helped seek out the Communists,

not to mention all the other patriots,

the Germans would have made a stab in the dark,

but they could never have hit as hard

as they hit the French Resistance.

Is that you? Bring me the latest police reports.

It's now time for the daily meeting

of the Head of State and the Head of Government.

Every one of France's problems

is thoroughly and openly examined by the two men.

Marshal Pétain didn't have a thing in common with the President.

Pétain was a stickler for order. Laval liked to improvise.

They were complete opposites of one another.

They had nothing in common.

What inspired him to take Laval a first time and then a second?

The first time, he didn't have much choice,

as it was basically Laval who made Pétain head of state.

The second time, he was in what you could call a rather tragic situation,

where the occupiers basically forced him to choose Laval.

Marshal Pétain was surrounded by a legion

of right-wing and far right-wing influences,

whereas my father-in-law, I say again,

was a man who could be considered a centrist today.

Laval's policies were pro-German because he believed in them.

Let me just quickly tell you something Laval told me.

You, of course, remember that horrible radio programme

during which he declared, “I hope Germany wins."

I was in Paris. The next day, I met with my family in Auvergne.

I first stopped in Vichy because I couldn't understand

how a French leader could say such a thing.

I saw Laval the next morning.

"Sir, I am appalled by what you said yesterday."

"What did I say?" "That you wanted Germany to win."

He added, "And after? What did I add afterwards?"

"I was so aghast that I can't remember."

He said, "Win the war against Bolshevism."

I recently read an old issue of Le Moniteur du Puy-de-Dôme,

on which most of the front page was dedicated to the words of Laval:

"I hope Germany wins."

There were several interpretations of this statement,

and some people have said that we must remember that he added,

"I hope they win as I'm involved in the fight against Communism."

Yet not everyone in France was Communist,

each one of us has their own ideas, which is why we fought.

We can't be anti-Communist, because we're not anti-anything.

It's the same thing as saying, "And those freemasons,

"they must be sent to the camps."

Or, "So you're a Jew? All the Jews must be burned in the gas chambers."

During the relatively long time you spent in Clermont-Ferrand,

did you ever see or hear of the persecutions that occurred?

No, I didn't see or hear anything about them.

Are you denying that the Jews, the Juden, were persecuted?

Do you mean the Jungen, the young, or the Juden, the Jews?

The Juden.

I had no idea how many Jews had infiltrated partisan ranks.

In any case, it wasn't the army's job to take care of the Jews.

An extremely disturbing census was taken

of the Jews who were either deported or arrested

in the various countries occupied by Germany,

and, with the exception of France,

the statistics are terrifying.

Of all these Jews, in 1946,

only 5.8% survived.

Whereas, if you look at the statistics,

which nobody is denying,

concerning French Jews,

only 5% did not survive.

Just take, for example, the army.

Sir, excuse me for interrupting you,

but the statistic you quote, and which I know well

refers only to French Jews who had not lost their citizenship.

However, there is another statistic

which is fatefuliy similar to yours,

which says that of the Jews without French citizenship,

the foreign Jews, or Jews stripped of citizenship,

only 5% survived,

the same average as in other countries.

So I am asking you if a statesman has the right,

even if he is a Frenchman and a great patriot,

to make such decisions concerning other human beings?

It was a tragic and dramatic situation,

in which one had to make the choice

which would save the most human lives possible.

I was brought up in a lower middle-class family.

I went to Pasteur High School,

but for me, being Jewish wasn't an issue, as we weren't religious.

And when I found out through others that I was Jewish,

at first, I felt extremely sad

to be rejected by my community and this country I loved,

not because I was born here, but because I loved the history.

Then I took an interest in Jews.

I think that discussing statistics in such a situation is impossible.

The fact that the French government agreed to turn in French nationals,

and even people to whom France had traditionally granted asylum,

proves that the government wasn't worthy of its country,

and of all that we loved and respected about France.

France is the only country in all Europe whose government collaborated.

Others signed an armistice or surrendered,

but France was the only country to have collaborated and voted laws

which were even more racist than the Nuremberg Laws,

as the French racist criteria were even more demanding

than the German racist criteria.

It's not something to be proud of.

I understand that history books only present the positive side,

but historically speaking, that's wrong.

I was arrested for belonging to the Resistance.

I was arrested during an armed campaign.

- When you were 16 years old? - I was 16, going on 17.

I was arrested by the French police,

and though I wasn't tortured, I was interrogated for 18 clays

in a rather physical manner.

I spent one year in a French prison.

In prison, I saw seven of my fellow group members gunned down,

by squads of French policemen.

And I was given over to the SS, with the other prison inmates,

on July 2, 1944, by the French Department of Prisons,

the only one in Europe that stooped so low

as to give the Germans every inmate, bound hand and foot.

I was deported on the "train of death",

thus named because it sat for two months being shot at by the English

who didn't know who was in it. I escaped on August 25, 1944.

The train arrived in Dachau on the 27th.

That's when I found out that my parents were there.

I hadn't seen my parents in four years, and I was told they'd been deported.

France was full of concentration camps:

Lurs, Argeles, Rivesaltes, Fortbarreau, Drancy,

and many others.

Along with the Jews, there were Spanish Republicans,

Freemasons and gypsies.

And all these people were delivered to the Germans upon their request.

Many people participated in these persecutions,

not to mention those who participated indirectly,

for their own personal reasons, to be rid of their competitors, etc.

Out of 130 letters of denunciation filed by the Office for Jewish Affairs,

at least half were written by doctors

who were informing the Gestapo or the Office for Jewish Affairs

against so-and-so, who was in direct competition with them.

One fine summer day, the Paris police,

under the supervision of the SS and the Gestapo in occupied lands,

organised a clay of Jewish arrests in the capital.

This day was henceforth known as the Rafle du Vél d'Hiv.

At that time, the Germans had only planned on arresting

people over 16 years of age. They weren't going to arrest children.

Yet the Paris police, which organised July 16

with such enthusiasm that they earned the praise of the Germans,

began arresting children.

So there were these 4,051 children sitting in the Velodrome d'Hiver,

crying and wetting their pants.

They caused the social workers, mostly Quakers or Protestant women,

very serious problems.

As the Germans hadn't planned on deporting these children,

they first deported the parents to camps in France,

hence separating the children from their parents,

while waiting for a decision. Eventually, Eichmann...

No, it was Rothke, Eichmann's representative,

who sent a telegram to Berlin

to ask what should be done with these children.

While they were waiting,

Laval is reported to have said,

"The children must be deported, too."

This appears in a telegram from Danneker, who was based in France.

This telegram can be consulted in the CDJC archives.

In my opinion, there are two things that prove it's authentic:

firstly, Pastor Beugner's attempt to convince Laval to protect the children.

According to Beugner,

when he suggested evacuating the children, possibly to America,

Laval replied, "It doesn't matter. I'm preventing the disease."

I'm sorry for interrupting when it's not my turn, sir.

But if these children had seen what I saw,

if they'd seen these poor people, men, women, children,

young and old, people of every age,

piled up in these trucks,

shoved in like human cattle, one on top of the other.

And I knew where they were going. I knew.

There was only one thing to do.

Had they seen this, they'd have done what I did.

They'd have taken their handkerchiefs, said to their employees,

"Excuse me. I'll be back in a minute."

And they'd have gone and cried.

Does anti-Semitism still exist in Auvergne?

- Yes. Still alive and well. - What makes you say that?

For example, it's common to refer to someone as a "Yid" or a "Jew".

- In student circles in Clermont? - Yes.

Do you think the reason behind this may be the fact

that the Occupation isn't discussed enough?

In a big family like mine, I have seven and a half children,

since the advent of modern times, a father only has one main concern:

earning money.

There's no family conversation, no family life,

because it takes time and we need money.

How many of these children survived?

- What was the percentage? - None of the children made it.

I wasn't the first to lead an inquiry on the subject

of what happened to the children in the camps.

And I discovered that they were immediately gassed to death.

My father-in-law was against repression.

Everyone knows that.

Even after his last meeting, Pierre Laval's day isn't over.

As the Hôtel Matignon falls silent,

the president knows that tomorrow is a new clay to start again

and has clearly defined his objectives:

In my opinion, this work is necessary,

and I will not quit until France's salvation is assured.

So I ask you to understand and try to support my work.

A visit to Sigmaringen Castle

accompanied by a former volunteer in the Waffen SS Charlemagne Division.

May 1969

Till 1944,

the royal family lived in this castle.

Under orders from Hitler's regime,

the royal family was given 24 hours

to leave the castle.

The new Vichy administration was given these quarters.

This is where Marshal Pétain and Prime Minister Pierre Laval

remained until the surrender of Germany.

I came with two friends. We'd just returned from Yanovitz, near Prague,

where we'd been taking advanced anti-tank lessons,

and we had a very precise question we wanted to ask Marshal Pétain,

as we knew he was here,

about whether or not the final point we had reached

was logical, and if we should make the jump

and leave for the Eastern front.

What was this final point?

The final point was wearing a German uniform,

something neither our education

nor, at a certain point,

the taste for something new we'd experienced in our youth,

had prepared us for.

We arrived here at the castle and asked to see Marshal Pétain.

There were guards around, French policemen.

Our request was quickly turned down. Marshal Pétain refused to see us.

- How about Laval? - He wouldn't see us either.

How did you feel about that? It must have been a serious rejection

as you thought that there would be some complicity

between the people who preached the policies

and you who put them into practice.

It was a complete and devastating rejection.

It made us want to leave there as quickly as possible,

and join our friends in Wilflecken,

head for the Eastern Front, and get it over with.

We no longer had any illusions.

It is hard for me to speak on behalf of 7,000 young men,

for there were 7,000 young men from different walks of life

who fought on the Eastern front

in the Charlemagne Division.

They say that only 300 survived.

I believe it. It's very important.

As I told you, the majority of them

weren't prepared in the least to wear that uniform,

and specially not the most extreme uniform.

- The Waffen SS uniform? - Yes, that's right.

So the Frenchmen at Vichy, upon seeing you in these uniforms,

treated you like you were...

Like we were an embarrassment,

an embarrassment which would require explanation in the future.

But as you know, in the years that followed,

the Vichy people tried to explain that it was simply part of a policy,

and that it wasn't really serious.

That astounds me.

You know, when 7,000 young men,

many of whom might have become the leaders of our nation,

are massacred in another country's uniform. For me, that's serious.

Here you see a portrait of Princess Stephanie,

the Queen of Portugal.

She was the wife of the Portuguese King Don Pedro V,

and died at a very young age.

In order to understand many people's involvement in the war,

you have to think back to 1934 at the earliest.

There was not a single senior school in France

which was not in a state of agitation.

From 1934 onwards,

there were extremely violent political fights in high schools.

There were editorials in Gringoire, Candide, Action Française,

in Populaire, and Humanité.

People were constantly encouraged to fight one another.

Furthermore, soldiers felt they were the guardians of the right wing.

In February 1934, which was an important date

in the history of pre-war political fighting in France,

- how old were you? - I was almost 13 years old.

Politics already concerned you?

They spoke of revolution.

For people like us, there really wasn't any choice.

We wouldn't choose the Communists,

so we had to choose the other revolutionary party,

which was Fascism.

There is a lot of discussion on anti-Semitism.

Don't forget that my entire youth took place in an atmosphere

which was ripe in violent anti-Semitism.

And we were also

touched by the fact that in February 1934, people were killed.

It was the beginning of a revolution. France was divided into two.

Did the fear of Communism play a major role in your political awakening?

There was one event which happened abroad,

but was of extreme importance.

While one generation grew up with the Algerian war

and was interested in it,

we were most interested in the war in Spain.

How could a boy of my age,

raised in the environment in which I was raised,

be anything other than a devoted anti-Communist,

when all the papers that I read at the time

were filled with photos

of nuns who had been gunned down,

of Carmelites who'd been unearthed,

of desecrated tombstones and so forth? This was...

- This was your background. - Yes, exactly. Exactly.

As far as Fascism was concerned,

how did it strike you, intellectually speaking?

Did you know what it was all about?

I must admit that I had a vague idea.

For us, it was a way of rebelling against our families.

The first images we saw of Nuremberg were like a new religion.

We were astounded. I can honestly say that it was like a mass to us.

There is a religious element to every political ideology.

And if you aren't impressed by the decorum,

especially the youth...

The chairs, covered in leather, carry the Hohenzollern emblem,

with the motto of the Hohenzollern: "Nihil sine Deo",

in English, "Nothing without God".

This room was used by the royal family

as a dining room till 1944.

We are now reaching the corridor.

Here you can see several magnificent miniatures,

representing the members of the royal family.

At one point, I was contacted by some real Resistance fighters.

At that time, they were looking for people who wanted to fight.

It's true, I have no excuse.

I had several opportunities to join the active Resistance.

My idea at the time, the idea of my youth,

was that only two ideologies existed which could change the world.

One which had already changed the world, Marxism,

and the other, which was National Socialism.

Does it bother you if we say that, roughly speaking,

in 1941 you were a young Fascist?

No, it's true.

You were on the side which ran no risk of persecution.

Were you particularly proud of being on that side,

seeing how France was at the time?

It's good that you bring up the problem of persecution.

It was unavoidable, and it is something I consider very important.

I won't pretend that I didn't know. I knew.

I knew they were arresting Jews. That's true.

But I can assure you that I never imagined that it ended in...

- In Auschwitz? - Never.

You thought it simply meant they were outcast from society?

I knew that they were sent to camps.

But at that time, there were many prisoners.

There were two million French prisoners of war in Germany.

Between a political prisoner and a prisoner of war,

for me, I didn't think there was any difference.

Let's come out and say it.

If France wants to remain a major European and world player,

if France wants to remain worthy of Europe,

we must join the fight against Bolshevism.

It's our only solution.

Both occupied and non-occupied zones plan to fight Bolshevism.

Defeating Bolshevism will unite Europe.

There were recruitment offices across France.

We must not try to deny that decrees were signed.

I know that today people are disgusted by us.

The policy of the Vichy people,

who incidentally have all joined majority groups since the Liberation,

is to explain the situation by saying that

extreme Gaullism and extreme Communism were dangerous,

and so were we,

we, the fans of collaboration, the bloodthirsty.

When did you realise the reality of the German military?

For me, the reality lay in the officer schools of the Waffen SS.

It was brand new, very unique, there was a mythology to it.

It made us smile, and at the same time we admired them.

With our Latin background, we discovered German mythology,

oaths taken between chains,

definitions like "My honour is called fidelity,"

and other things which fascinated us.

Once a Frenchman, always a Frenchman,

even when faced with such convictions.

When the Germans realised this, they wouldn't take us seriously.

Did you get along with the Germans? What did you call them?

Les Chleus [Krauts].

I don't know one single Frenchman

from the Charlemagne Division who didn't...

Relations were hostile?

Yes. Most of us called Hitler "Le Grand Jules".

That was typical of the French. They called him "Big Jules".

Was the foreign Waffen SS a European army?

We played a part, if you allow me to use the word,

in the defeat.

And that makes you realise that a European army only really existed

in people's imaginations.

All I know about the defeat

is that the Germans had reserved us a choice spot

when the Eastern front crumbled,

when Rokossovsky and Zhukov carved up the German front

into several different pieces.

When this all occurred, the Germans rushed, I do mean rushed,

the foreign Waffen SS troops into these areas.

I strongly suspect that they were already trying

to get rid of something that made them look bad,

that might hinder future negotiations.

Did you have any contact with the German people?

Yes, of course, and that is one of my strongest memories of the time.

As we were going to face the Russians,

we met the exodus of refugees. It was worse than in 1940.

All of Eastern Prussia and part of Pomerania

were trying to take refuge in central Germany.

What would they say to you?

What would they say to us?

They offered us their daughters.

They preferred to give them to us than see them raped by the Russians.

We saw the Germans withdrawing,

and we were there to protect their withdrawal.

It was something new in history,

and it was quite funny.

It was one of the things that made us laugh,

although the threat of the Russians made it somewhat less funny.

They were still giving out medals. Were you awarded anything?

YES.

What? An Iron Cross?

Yes, first and second class.

Bearing in mind what you learned in the last war,

the results of National Socialism,

which, as you explained,

had a certain appeal or charm about it at one point in your life,

bearing this in mind,

would you change the choices made at that time?

Yes, of course.

I think only an idiot would refuse to change their opinion.

But I can only speak for myself.

I have changed, but that's me.

Young people have asked me what I think about their commitment.

It's always interesting, fascinating,

because commitment always brings on change,

but sometimes this change has dramatic consequences.

So I advise people to be cautious.

Are you a liberal? Are you afraid of ideologies?

A bit.

Actually, very much.

Personally, I was not physically affected by the Occupation.

They didn't kill my wife or my children.

My friend Menut obviously feels very differently.

Not only did they take Menut's wife,

they also tortured her, and tore off her nipples.

They even burned her with a branding iron.

So Menut's state of mind is completely different.

Her back was raw with whip marks.

- How did you find out? - I was told by Mrs Michelin

who was in the same cell as my wife.

I believe her name was Mrs Jean Michelin.

There was also Mrs Martineau from Volvic.

One of them helped me identify the body, saying,

"I'm sure those are her slippers,

"I made them for her before they shot her to death."

- You didn't recognise her at first? - No.

They had buried her without...

Without a coffin.

She was still alive when they buried her.

She was in a coma from being whipped when they took her,

and nobody had the decency to finish her off.

They kicked her and punched her.

It was one of the executioners himself who told me

that he shoved a broomstick up her vagina.

Some people blamed us, others didn't.

It depended on whether or not their father or son had died during the war,

or been taken prisoner in Germany.

Those people were obviously angry at us.

They thought we mistreated the prisoners in Germany.

But that wasn't true. But that's what they said.

I was taken prisoner by the Maquis and in October 1944,

I was taken to Clermont-Ferrand to be interned

in a camp near the station.

I got off the train at 10am.

And as I was injured, I'd been tied to my stretcher.

I stayed like that all day on the platform.

This is the station.

This is the main building.

This is the platform, and the camp was across from it.

That evening, some nurses fetched me with a wheelbarrow.

During the day, many civilians came and stared at me lying there.

Some of them spat at me.

Then there were others who seemed to take pity on my state.

What were you thinking?

How did you feel lying there on the platform in Clermont station?

I felt it wasn't very decent of the people there.

It was disgusting, actually.

They should have realised

that we could have clone the same to their father or son. Then what?

So you were tied up?

Yes, and I was unable to move.

It was a shame, as I knew Clermont like the back of my hand,

and I could have hidden. I had a girlfriend in Saint-Césaire.

And that's where you would have hidden?

Probably.

In any case, she was a very nice girl,

who wasn't against the Germans and was pretty to boot.

The beauty who slept with the King of Prussia,

With the King of Prussia,

Had her hair shaved clean off,

Her hair shaved clean off.

Her weakness for "Ich liebe dich",

For "Ich liebe dich",

Has cost her the price of a wig,

The price of a wig.

The sans-culottes and the Phrygian caps,

The Phrygian caps,

Handed their hair over to a dog barber,

To a dog barber.

I ought to have tried to save her mane,

To save her mane.

I should have spoken out for her ponytail,

For her ponytail.

It was in August 1944.

I had taken holidays in August and was visiting my mother,

when a car full of civilians pulled up.

They'd come to get me.

There were flags everywhere and they all carried machine guns.

I hadn't realised what was up, as Châteaugué is a quiet village,

but when I arrived in Clermont, I saw that everyone was abuzz.

People were being arrested left, right, and centre.

I was locked up in a cell underneath the Poterne,

a public square in Clermont-Ferrand.

There were women wearing their nightgowns,

or their pyjamas, as they'd been taken in the night.

I didn't know why they'd taken me.

I had really no idea.

We had to stand trial.

Some women came back from such trials with their heads shaved.

Those were the girls who dated the Germans.

But, for me, it was...

- You didn't date the Germans? - Never.

What were you accused of?

I spent an entire month in the Clermont-Ferrand prison,

before being told why I was there.

On several occasions, I asked different officers

if they knew why I had been placed in prison.

When I told them my name, none understood why I was there.

They told me it might be a mistake, that I should be patient.

"No doubt, they'll let you go."

Now many of them belonged to the French Resistance army.

Eventually, I found out I'd been jailed for denouncing a captain,

a friend of mine.

Actually, it was his wife who was my friend.

They were also locals, about my age.

The Chamalière Gestapo had intercepted a denunciation letter,

and that denunciation was the reason I had been arrested.

So you weren't actually guilty?

No, I wasn't.

Naturally, I denied it.

They came to get me at the prison,

they took me to a building on Lille Square,

and a certain individual removed all my clothes,

and put me in a bath that was filled with water.

I tried to hold on, but I was handcuffed from behind.

I turned my head around, but he punched me on the chin,

So I sank to the bottom of the bath.

As I was underwater, I was forced to drink.

They realised that I was starting to lose strength,

so he grabbed me by the hair, pulled me out of the water,

stuck two fingers down my throat, made me throw up,

and asked me if I confessed. But I wasn't guilty.

And I regretted I hadn't done anything. It was so horrible.

But who were these people? You talk about "they" and "he".

Do you think they were policemen who had worked for another regime?

I don't know.

- Don't you live in Clermont? - I never saw these people again.

I think they were people who got involved in the whole thing

with the sole purpose of killing other people.

During the Occupation, were you for or against Marshal Pétain?

I supported him.

Why?

I wasn't a politician or anything, I was just in favour of Pétain.

So how did this happen to you?

A friend was denounced to the Gestapo.

The letter was intercepted by the Chamalière Police.

Do you know who might have imitated your writing?

It was his wife.

- His wife did? - Yes.

- She was the one who denounced you? - Yes.

- Excuse me. - Go ahead.

Now we'll have some privacy.

Do you remember where we stopped?

I do. So then I asked the captain...

I asked him...

I don't know.

I had to stand trial.

Captain Mury was the first witness.

The judge even said to him,

"I hear your wife enjoys copying her friends' writing."

He replied, "Sometimes, but that means nothing.

"And furthermore,

“the accused woman is using this to try to make my wife look guilty."

And when Mrs Mury took the stand, he asked her the same question.

She replied, "Never".

The judge said, "But it's been confirmed."

She turned to me, thinking I was the one who'd confirmed it,

and said, "What a memory she has!"

The judge slammed his fist down and said, "It wasn't her.

"It was your husband who said it." And then she began to falter,

saying she only copied very pretty handwriting.

A murmur passed through the entire court.

There were people there on both sides, both for and against me,

but they all felt sure the judge would ask for further inquiry

into how well she could imitate handwriting.

But he didn't. And I was sentenced to 15 years.

When you say you had both friends and enemies in the courtroom,

were these friends and enemies characterised

by a certain attitude under the Occupation or not?

No, no...

Were your enemies people who claimed to be Resistance fighters?

Exactly. They weren't personal enemies or anything.

I supported Marshal Pétain, and they didn't. Or so I think.

When you were brought to the room with the bath,

did you ever think that before,

at the time when you generally agreed with the regime,

the same thing happened to the others?

I don't know. I have no idea.

- You say that you were for Pétain. - Yes.

Was this because you were influenced by Catholic beliefs?

- No. - Why was it then?

- Maybe it was... - Please try to remember.

- Maybe it was because of his ideas. - Which ideas?

His ideas on the future of France. I thought he was a great man.

- Do you still think so? - Yes.

YES.

You defended many people accused by those in power at the time,

and at the Liberation, you defended those accused by the new order.

It might seem odd to the uninformed.

As lawyers, our job is to defend the accused,

but when politics change, the accused change too,

depending on which side of the fence you're on. It was a brutal period.

In the three or four clays after the liberation of Clermont,

out of the 1,200 people arrested, only 600 were put in prison.

You can imagine what happened to the other 600.

And those who had trials then received a very summary justice,

which might as well have been dispensed with,

considering the atrocious things being punished.

I attended the trial of three militiamen

who admitted to having arrested three Resistance fighters,

ripped out their eyes, put bugs in the holes and sewn up their pupils.

In these cases, you wonder if a trial is necessary.

It may have been better to shoot them immediately. Many were shot.

But then, later, many legal errors were also made, in that,

in a wave of Liberation euphoria, many innocent people were executed.

However, after a month and a half or so, they set up official courts,

with a professional judge presiding,

accompanied by a jury, like the Crown Court.

And I don't think any further legal errors were made,

if you accept the death penalty for someone

who denounced a Frenchman who was taken away and never returned.

Mr d'Astier, National Liberation Movement.

May the traitors' heads roll, because that is justice.

May the property of collaborators, banks and corporations

who betrayed us be seized, because that is justice.

Mr Guyot, Communist Party.

In order for France to be liberated,

every inch of our motherland must be cleansed

of every Boche and every traitor.

Anthony Eden, in this interview, generally speaking,

your attitude towards Marshal Pétain has been rather charitable.

Do you think the sentence he was given at the Liberation was unfair?

It is not my place to judge whether or not people's anger was justified.

We haven't been through it, so we cannot say.

Personally, I was not shocked when General de Gaulle said,

"We must pay tribute to the Marshal of Verdun."

After all, it's a part of France's history, whether we like it or not.

Sectarianism can't go on forever.

It's not because a man is killed that the problem will be solved.

They must not be allowed to run free or to be involved in politics,

but we must not turn them into possible future heroes.

That's my opinion, but not many Resistants would agree with it.

How did you arrive at this stage in which you reject sectarianism?

How do you explain the change of heart?

I know it seems like a sudden change, but it was because I was scared.

I was scared the whole time.

After the self-sacrificing heroes, like General Massu,

or the man who... I could never have committed suicide. I love life.

Born February 6, 1900 Died June 12, 1969

French Resistance Fighter Military Cross 1939-45

Were you denounced?

Yes, someone denounced me.

I think I know who it was, but...

If he hadn't been denounced, no one would've found him.

You make me laugh with your questions!

The Krauts didn't denounce - bad French people did.

Were you ever tempted to seek revenge?

What good would it do?

It is natural that it would be tempting.

When I first came back, I may have been tempted.

But then I felt it wasn't worth it.

I remember one clay at Clermont Police HQ,

a guy said to me, "Do you want to get revenge? I know who it was.

"If you want revenge, the boys and I will get him for you,

"but we'll never tell you his name."

I said, "I already know who did it."

I told him the name. He asked, "Who told you?"

"Nobody," I replied. "I just worked it out.

"So don't bother taking revenge."

What is it like nowadays, for someone like you, to have neighbours

in the village or surrounding areas, who were informers?

How can you live with that?

Do you forget it?

It's something you can't forget.

- So what can you do? - Nothing.

This is the Iron Cross.

This is the Cross of Merit, with a sword.

This is another one,

the Cross of Merit second class. It was for hand-to-hand combat.

This was for serving in the East. We call it "the frozen meat medal",

and this medal was for being loyal during four years of war.

I see, a medal for loyalty.

Yes, four years of war.

I'm sure that you're aware that as far as World War II medals are concerned,

there are many people in Germany who refuse to wear them,

because they were awarded by the Nazi state.

Yet you don't hesitate to wear them with formal dress.

Yes, some people feel uncomfortable.

But if you look at these people,

you see they're generally men who never fought,

men who weren't soldiers, who didn't deserve any medals.

You think that they don't wear them simply because they have none?

That's right.

Nowadays, they're dishing out medals.

What's the difference between a medal then and a medal now?

"The worm was in the fruit", as we say here in Bavaria.

We're not more stupid than anyone else,

and yet we lost the war.

Nowadays we have to wonder if we're not better off like this.

After all, if we had won, Hitler may have continued,

and where would that leave us today?

Perhaps we'd be occupying some country in Africa or America.

As I said, was on a motorcycle mission.

In my pocket, I had a Beretta pistol my friend Bessoux had given me.

I don't think it was a gift, he just wanted to get rid of it.

He was afraid.

So there I am with a gun in my pocket,

when, where the road bends toward Ravin Blanc,

all of a sudden, what do I see? The Germans had passed me,

and there is this old Boche,

a doddering pale old man, shaking like a leaf, in need of a haircut,

in a tattered uniform, whose motorcycle had broken down.

So he tells me to pull over by making signs like these.

There he is, only seven feet away, and there I am, a gun in my pocket.

I wanted to shoot one myself before it ended.

So I look at him closely. What do I see?

There he is, dolman buttoned up to the neck,

looking so fat that he might actually explode.

I felt that killing a pig wasn't very challenging.

So I let the whole thing drop.

He started chatting, but I don't understand a word of German.

I said goodbye and took off. I don't know what became of him.

That's what I wanted to tell you.

Had you killed him, would you feel remorse?

I would feel remorse, and you must not forget that,

even if I didn't kill him, I did think about killing him.