All language subtitles for Mapplethorpe.Look.at.the.Pictures.2016.WEBRip.x264-RARBG
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1
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2
00:00:45,166 --> 00:00:47,458
Robert Mapplethorpe,
3
00:00:47,458 --> 00:00:50,959
a known homosexual
who died of AIDS
4
00:00:50,959 --> 00:00:55,166
and who spent
the last years of his life
promoting homosexuality.
5
00:00:55,166 --> 00:00:58,792
Now, if any senator doesn't
know what I'm talking about
6
00:00:58,792 --> 00:01:02,417
in terms of the art
that I have protested,
7
00:01:02,417 --> 00:01:04,417
look at the pictures!
8
00:01:04,417 --> 00:01:06,291
Now, any senator who thinks
9
00:01:06,291 --> 00:01:09,583
that I'm attacking
aesthetic art--
10
00:01:09,583 --> 00:01:12,500
I don't know whether
the television cameras
can see it or not,
11
00:01:12,500 --> 00:01:14,834
I'm gonna be fast enough
with it that they can't.
12
00:01:14,834 --> 00:01:18,708
But I want senators
to come over here,
if they have any doubt,
13
00:01:18,708 --> 00:01:20,583
and look at the pictures.
14
00:01:20,583 --> 00:01:24,000
In Cincinnati, police closed
down the Mapplethorpe exhibit.
15
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,500
We are sending
the Mapplethorpe
exhibit to trial.
16
00:01:27,500 --> 00:01:29,708
Come over here.
Look at the pictures.
17
00:01:29,708 --> 00:01:32,625
One of two artists whose
works led to a dispute...
18
00:01:32,625 --> 00:01:34,625
Look at the pictures.
Look at the pictures.
19
00:01:34,625 --> 00:01:35,959
Look at the pictures.
20
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,041
Who is Mapplethorpe?
21
00:01:38,041 --> 00:01:40,041
The art gallery
and its director
22
00:01:40,041 --> 00:01:44,250
are charged with obscenity
for exhibiting photographs by
the late Robert Mapplethorpe.
23
00:01:44,250 --> 00:01:45,333
Look at the pictures.
24
00:01:45,333 --> 00:01:48,041
Mapplethorpe's work
is highly controversial.
25
00:01:48,041 --> 00:01:49,750
Can I show it to you?
I don't want to look at it.
26
00:01:49,750 --> 00:01:52,834
I don't even acknowledge
that it's art.
27
00:01:52,834 --> 00:01:54,500
Keep your hands off!
28
00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:56,000
I don't even acknowledge
29
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,208
that the fellow who did it
was an artist.
30
00:01:58,208 --> 00:02:00,208
I think he was a jerk...
31
00:02:00,208 --> 00:02:02,083
...jerk, jerk.
32
00:02:02,083 --> 00:02:05,166
33
00:02:19,959 --> 00:02:22,208
This is one of five vaults
34
00:02:22,208 --> 00:02:24,542
in which Mapplethorpe's
archive resides.
35
00:02:24,542 --> 00:02:26,708
Audiovisual material is
in here
36
00:02:26,708 --> 00:02:32,750
along with more ephemeral
paperwork from his studio
and personal correspondence.
37
00:02:38,417 --> 00:02:41,500
Photographs are
in a cooler environment,
38
00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:45,500
and Polaroids are in
an even colder environment.
39
00:02:48,708 --> 00:02:50,875
40
00:02:54,125 --> 00:02:57,458
One of our big challenges
is to really make a case
41
00:02:57,458 --> 00:02:59,875
for why we're doing
two concurrent exhibitions...
42
00:02:59,875 --> 00:03:01,083
Right.
...about one artist.
43
00:03:01,083 --> 00:03:03,333
This is two sides
of one coin.
44
00:03:03,333 --> 00:03:04,959
Yeah.
45
00:03:04,959 --> 00:03:08,000
There is a duality that runs
through Mapplethorpe's
work and life
46
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,750
and we hope to be able
to divide the material
47
00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:15,125
in a way that would
highlight that duality.
48
00:03:19,583 --> 00:03:23,166
This is a box
of self-portraits.
Right.
49
00:03:23,166 --> 00:03:24,417
Oh.
Oh.
50
00:03:24,417 --> 00:03:26,583
Yeah, biker jacket
from the back.
51
00:03:26,583 --> 00:03:27,917
Yeah.
52
00:03:27,917 --> 00:03:29,708
I really like
this white piping
53
00:03:29,708 --> 00:03:32,834
and how it leads up
to this other shape.
Yeah.
54
00:03:36,041 --> 00:03:37,708
That's one
of the great ones.
55
00:03:37,708 --> 00:03:40,750
When you say Mapplethorpe,
people immediately think
56
00:03:40,750 --> 00:03:44,625
of the controversies that
happened during the '90s.
57
00:03:44,625 --> 00:03:45,959
"Guerrilla Rebel."
58
00:03:45,959 --> 00:03:47,208
Yeah.
59
00:03:47,208 --> 00:03:49,417
Mapplethorpe was
being demonized
60
00:03:49,417 --> 00:03:51,208
by conservative politicians,
61
00:03:51,208 --> 00:03:54,250
so one of our goals was
to humanize Mapplethorpe,
62
00:03:54,250 --> 00:03:59,291
to bring him back into
people's consciousness
as a human being.
63
00:04:00,417 --> 00:04:02,792
It's quite convincing.
64
00:04:05,417 --> 00:04:07,166
Ah.
Oh.
65
00:04:09,291 --> 00:04:10,834
Mapplethorpe and bullwhip.
66
00:04:10,834 --> 00:04:13,792
I remember it being
a slightly higher contrast.
67
00:04:13,792 --> 00:04:15,208
It's a different paper.
Right.
68
00:04:15,208 --> 00:04:17,166
This is a lot warmer
and softer.
69
00:04:17,166 --> 00:04:18,333
Mm-hmm.
70
00:04:18,333 --> 00:04:20,166
The way his hand is,
71
00:04:20,166 --> 00:04:23,125
it's so great,
it almost looks like
he's releasing a shadow.
72
00:04:23,125 --> 00:04:28,333
Yes. Because that cord
comes just to the edge
of the frame.
73
00:04:28,333 --> 00:04:31,834
The cord kind of connects
the viewer with Mapplethorpe.
74
00:04:31,834 --> 00:04:32,834
Yeah.
75
00:04:32,834 --> 00:04:34,500
Because it's coming
out of the picture.
76
00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:35,834
As well as the eye contact.
77
00:04:35,834 --> 00:04:36,834
Right.
Obviously,
78
00:04:36,834 --> 00:04:38,166
it's very defiant.
79
00:04:38,166 --> 00:04:40,917
He's not hiding his face.
He's not hiding his identity.
80
00:04:40,917 --> 00:04:43,542
He's not hiding
what he's doing.
84
00:05:29,125 --> 00:05:32,625
Robert was just...
my younger brother.
85
00:05:32,625 --> 00:05:34,000
I'm the oldest.
86
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,083
That's myself,
my brother Richard,
87
00:05:36,083 --> 00:05:39,708
Robert, Edward,
Sue, and James.
88
00:05:39,708 --> 00:05:41,041
That's the six of us.
89
00:05:41,041 --> 00:05:44,875
When we were young,
we did a lot of coloring.
90
00:05:44,875 --> 00:05:47,208
Robert always
had weird things.
91
00:05:47,208 --> 00:05:49,583
He'd have a green face,
92
00:05:49,583 --> 00:05:53,000
or... just not the norm.
93
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,875
Purple hair, or something.
94
00:05:54,875 --> 00:05:56,625
And I'd say,
"Why are you doing that for?
95
00:05:56,625 --> 00:05:58,375
"That's not the way
it's supposed to be."
96
00:05:58,375 --> 00:06:00,208
As far as, like, photographs,
97
00:06:00,208 --> 00:06:02,000
he never took photographs.
98
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,625
My dad took
a lot of photographs.
99
00:06:04,625 --> 00:06:07,750
Robert, he had no interest
in that at all.
100
00:06:09,625 --> 00:06:15,333
My wife and I and the children
moved here in 1949.
101
00:06:15,333 --> 00:06:17,792
I was always interested
in photography,
102
00:06:17,792 --> 00:06:20,458
but none of my kids were
until Eddie.
103
00:06:20,458 --> 00:06:23,458
I had all the equipment
downstairs, a darkroom,
104
00:06:23,458 --> 00:06:27,625
enlarger and printer and dryer
and everything else.
105
00:06:28,625 --> 00:06:30,875
This is the block
we lived on.
106
00:06:30,875 --> 00:06:32,792
See, all the houses
were the same?
107
00:06:36,917 --> 00:06:38,750
This is during the snow.
108
00:06:38,750 --> 00:06:42,291
This is Robert here
with two of his friends.
109
00:06:42,291 --> 00:06:44,625
You know, we had to be home
a certain time for dinner,
110
00:06:44,625 --> 00:06:48,333
and you had to sit
at the table until
you finished your dinner.
111
00:06:48,333 --> 00:06:51,291
Robert was this regular kid.
112
00:06:51,291 --> 00:06:54,959
One thing was, his endurance
on a pogo stick.
113
00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:56,792
He was having competitions
with people.
114
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He would go all the way around
the block on a pogo stick.
115
00:06:59,583 --> 00:07:05,041
Robert was the pogo stick
champ of 259th Street,
of the neighborhood.
116
00:07:05,041 --> 00:07:09,834
He just could go on forever,
and he was so proud of that.
117
00:07:11,792 --> 00:07:15,875
You know, there's something
about black and white pictures
that are so much better
118
00:07:15,875 --> 00:07:17,708
because they last.
119
00:07:17,708 --> 00:07:22,375
I took this of Robert
in front of our house, right?
120
00:07:22,375 --> 00:07:27,750
The rest of them,
all these, he took of me,
121
00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:32,208
and, I believe, is probably
the first pictures he took.
123
00:07:33,417 --> 00:07:36,166
"Sense and Nonsense!"
124
00:07:36,166 --> 00:07:39,333
There was this television
program in the early '50s.
125
00:07:39,333 --> 00:07:42,875
Someone would give them
something to taste with
their blindfolds on
126
00:07:42,875 --> 00:07:44,625
and you would have
to guess what it is.
127
00:07:44,625 --> 00:07:48,834
That's how we play the game,
identifying items by means
of our five senses.
128
00:07:48,834 --> 00:07:51,542
Well, we Mapplethorpe kids
made our own
129
00:07:51,542 --> 00:07:53,834
"Sense and Nonsense" game.
130
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,583
Robert, little devil
that he was,
131
00:07:59,583 --> 00:08:02,542
went to one of the many
ashtrays around the house,
132
00:08:02,542 --> 00:08:04,041
which were always full,
133
00:08:04,041 --> 00:08:09,208
and put ashes
in my brother's mouth,
134
00:08:09,208 --> 00:08:11,834
and they were fuming.
135
00:08:11,834 --> 00:08:15,250
That's the kind of stuff
he did, that kind of
needling stuff.
136
00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:19,083
So he was
a devilish guy.
138
00:08:21,917 --> 00:08:24,917
We never missed
Mass on Sunday.
139
00:08:24,917 --> 00:08:26,500
We always went to church.
140
00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:28,792
And I still do.
142
00:08:45,834 --> 00:08:47,917
I first met
Robert Mapplethorpe
143
00:08:47,917 --> 00:08:52,458
when I was assigned to
Our Lady of the Snows Parish
in Floral Park.
144
00:08:52,458 --> 00:08:55,083
They were active
in the parish, you know,
145
00:08:55,083 --> 00:08:58,500
so I got to know
the whole family.
146
00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:01,458
So Robert just kind of
took to me,
147
00:09:01,458 --> 00:09:03,375
and I, you know, took to him.
148
00:09:03,375 --> 00:09:07,458
And... he used to paint
me pictures.
149
00:09:07,458 --> 00:09:12,959
He drew me a couple of
paintings of the Blessed
Mother, the Virgin Mary,
150
00:09:12,959 --> 00:09:18,792
and I thought to myself,
"He's been too influenced
by Picasso."
151
00:09:18,792 --> 00:09:21,166
You know?
152
00:09:21,166 --> 00:09:24,125
But anyway,
I have to say that, first,
153
00:09:24,125 --> 00:09:25,959
he was the only person I knew
154
00:09:25,959 --> 00:09:29,959
who could sit on a couch
and chew his toenails.
155
00:09:31,041 --> 00:09:34,166
The other thing was,
you'd look at Robert
156
00:09:34,166 --> 00:09:37,542
and I think the first thing
you'd notice is his eyes.
157
00:09:37,542 --> 00:09:39,542
They were huge,
158
00:09:39,542 --> 00:09:43,000
and as if he was
always looking,
159
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,542
always penetrating, always...
160
00:09:45,542 --> 00:09:47,875
you know,
trying to get through.
161
00:09:47,875 --> 00:09:54,083
I come from this, you know,
suburban America.
162
00:09:54,083 --> 00:09:57,250
It was a very
safe environment,
163
00:09:57,250 --> 00:10:00,375
and it was a good place
to come from
164
00:10:00,375 --> 00:10:02,959
in that it was a good
place to leave.
165
00:10:06,875 --> 00:10:10,166
He never quite
really fit in
166
00:10:10,166 --> 00:10:15,041
with all these
other teenage boys, you know?
167
00:10:15,041 --> 00:10:18,333
There was something
very fragile about Robert.
168
00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:22,708
169
00:10:31,375 --> 00:10:34,708
Robert was mom's favorite.
I don't know why though.
170
00:10:34,708 --> 00:10:37,083
I can't put my finger
on specific things,
171
00:10:37,083 --> 00:10:40,208
but I always say,
"Oh, Robert was her favorite."
172
00:10:42,375 --> 00:10:45,208
Somehow that just
wasn't enough for me.
173
00:10:46,542 --> 00:10:48,917
Robert was smart.
Everything came easy to him.
174
00:10:48,917 --> 00:10:51,417
I worked like a dog
for my marks,
175
00:10:51,417 --> 00:10:53,542
but he graduated at 16.
176
00:10:53,542 --> 00:10:57,708
As soon as I could,
I started art school training,
177
00:10:57,708 --> 00:11:00,208
and I moved to Brooklyn.
178
00:11:00,208 --> 00:11:02,959
My dad was
basically against it.
179
00:11:02,959 --> 00:11:07,375
My father thought,
you can do it as a hobby,
180
00:11:07,375 --> 00:11:09,917
but what are you ever
gonna do with art?
181
00:11:14,125 --> 00:11:16,750
Did you know that photography
182
00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:19,000
and homosexuality share
something in common?
183
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,834
Growing respect for
photography in the art world
184
00:11:21,834 --> 00:11:23,625
occurred simultaneously
185
00:11:23,625 --> 00:11:25,959
with the growing visibility
of the gay rights movement.
186
00:11:25,959 --> 00:11:29,834
Each suffered a gauntlet
of prejudice during
their coming of age.
187
00:11:29,834 --> 00:11:31,708
Just as Mapplethorpe
was starting out,
188
00:11:31,708 --> 00:11:35,375
to be openly gay was still
very much a cultural taboo.
189
00:11:35,375 --> 00:11:40,458
And photography was
considered not much more
than a utilitarian medium,
190
00:11:40,458 --> 00:11:44,250
an applied art,
a bastard of the arts.
191
00:11:47,333 --> 00:11:50,250
He was very young
when he started Pratt.
192
00:11:50,250 --> 00:11:54,500
He just looked like
a little boy and people
made fun of him.
193
00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:58,375
At that time his name
was Bob Mapplethorpe,
194
00:11:58,375 --> 00:12:01,208
and to further diminish him,
195
00:12:01,208 --> 00:12:03,041
they called him "Maypo,"
196
00:12:03,041 --> 00:12:06,583
because that was a children's
cereal back in those days.
197
00:12:06,583 --> 00:12:09,792
♪ I want my Maypo,
I want my Maypo ♪
198
00:12:09,792 --> 00:12:12,125
He was not macho.
199
00:12:12,125 --> 00:12:14,667
It makes you strong.
200
00:12:14,667 --> 00:12:17,166
201
00:12:26,125 --> 00:12:30,166
He told me he would take his
father's negatives to class
202
00:12:30,166 --> 00:12:32,834
and present them
as his own work.
203
00:12:32,834 --> 00:12:35,542
He was a fuckup.
204
00:12:38,875 --> 00:12:42,250
So I was interested in
his experience at Pratt
205
00:12:42,250 --> 00:12:45,250
and how he found himself
as an artist there.
206
00:12:45,250 --> 00:12:46,834
Is that a self-portrait?
207
00:12:46,834 --> 00:12:48,750
Yes. This one's
actually ink,
208
00:12:48,750 --> 00:12:53,333
so I'm imagining he, like,
rolled an oil-based ink
onto his face.
209
00:12:53,333 --> 00:12:54,333
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
210
00:12:54,333 --> 00:12:56,083
Which is kind of
hard to comprehend.
211
00:12:56,083 --> 00:12:57,500
The psychedelia of it too.
212
00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:00,041
He was really into acid
at the time.
213
00:13:01,458 --> 00:13:04,333
We both had
a similar background.
214
00:13:04,333 --> 00:13:07,083
Right off the bat,
I think we kind of hit it off.
215
00:13:07,083 --> 00:13:12,166
He started taking drugs
and smoked marijuana. LSD.
216
00:13:12,166 --> 00:13:13,542
We both were living on
217
00:13:13,542 --> 00:13:15,333
candy bars and cigarettes,
basically,
218
00:13:15,333 --> 00:13:18,875
and he was getting really
skinny and we were both
really pale-looking...
219
00:13:18,875 --> 00:13:24,500
But we smoked, and so
he put LSD in the cigarette.
220
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:26,458
I completely lost my memory.
221
00:13:26,458 --> 00:13:31,750
And so... I, uh...
222
00:13:37,208 --> 00:13:39,208
I don't know,
I'm losing track now.
223
00:13:39,208 --> 00:13:41,375
I'm kind of like, having a...
224
00:13:41,375 --> 00:13:43,667
I'm going back there
too much, I guess.
225
00:13:43,667 --> 00:13:47,208
When I was in art school,
I'd stay up all night, stoned,
226
00:13:47,208 --> 00:13:49,166
trying to think
what hasn't been done,
227
00:13:49,166 --> 00:13:54,208
and I was obsessed with
trying to come up with
a new approach to art
228
00:13:54,208 --> 00:13:56,250
and to be unique somehow.
229
00:13:56,250 --> 00:14:00,375
Bob and I realized
you have to get
a little name recognition
230
00:14:00,375 --> 00:14:03,417
and sometimes the weird thing
works-- can work well for you.
231
00:14:03,417 --> 00:14:08,250
So, somewhere along the way
there, he had purchased
this little monkey
232
00:14:08,250 --> 00:14:09,583
and he named it Scratch,
233
00:14:09,583 --> 00:14:12,458
and I did some really
nice drawings of Scratch.
234
00:14:12,458 --> 00:14:15,500
The monkey had
some bad habits.
235
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:17,708
The monkey masturbated a lot,
236
00:14:17,708 --> 00:14:21,750
and the monkey
threw crap at you sometimes.
237
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:24,834
He would walk around with
the monkey on his shoulder
238
00:14:24,834 --> 00:14:27,375
and he was
wearing a black cape.
239
00:14:27,375 --> 00:14:31,083
Robert and I graduated Pratt
in '67,
240
00:14:31,083 --> 00:14:33,500
the Summer of Love
and blah, blah, blah.
241
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:36,917
And here is Robert
standing all by himself
242
00:14:36,917 --> 00:14:40,542
in a corner, hanging,
you know, hiding his face.
243
00:14:40,542 --> 00:14:42,625
He's extremely mysterious.
244
00:14:42,625 --> 00:14:45,250
And that's who he was.
245
00:14:45,250 --> 00:14:46,834
McCue:
The final project
for both of us
246
00:14:46,834 --> 00:14:49,500
was to make a musical
instrument out of a bone.
247
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:52,000
Then I remember,
I got a call from Bob
248
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,959
and he was all kind of
weepy and he said,
249
00:14:54,959 --> 00:14:58,125
"I don't know what to do.
Scratch has died."
250
00:14:58,125 --> 00:15:00,625
It was maybe
two o'clock in the morning.
251
00:15:00,625 --> 00:15:03,708
He came in
and he was really shook.
252
00:15:03,708 --> 00:15:07,542
He said,
"I boiled Scratch's head,
253
00:15:07,542 --> 00:15:10,083
"and I've got my bone,
254
00:15:10,083 --> 00:15:11,750
"but, you know,
it was terrible.
255
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:15,125
"It smelled terrible.
I hated doing it,
I had to cut his head off."
256
00:15:15,125 --> 00:15:17,834
So he aced the project.
257
00:15:17,834 --> 00:15:19,750
Yeah.
258
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:22,208
There was a lot of negativity,
259
00:15:22,208 --> 00:15:23,917
even at Pratt,
toward what I did.
260
00:15:23,917 --> 00:15:25,583
You know, people would say,
261
00:15:25,583 --> 00:15:28,166
"That isn't art, that isn't
the way you make art,"
262
00:15:28,166 --> 00:15:30,333
and I just did it
the way I wanted to do it.
263
00:15:30,333 --> 00:15:33,500
Robert set himself
apart from his classmates.
264
00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:36,625
It's a beast and this
is his backside.
265
00:15:36,625 --> 00:15:38,500
It's a pose
that he uses himself
266
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:40,500
later on in self-portraits.
Hmm.
267
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:45,250
If you compare it
to "Bullwhip,"
that backward pose,
268
00:15:45,250 --> 00:15:47,667
he already has it in his mind.
269
00:15:47,667 --> 00:15:50,458
The last time I saw Bob,
he had no clothes on.
270
00:15:50,458 --> 00:15:54,333
He was afraid. He had all
the furniture stacked up
against the door,
271
00:15:54,333 --> 00:15:58,291
and he was really beside
himself and he said,
272
00:15:58,291 --> 00:16:01,500
"I'm afraid. I'm afraid.
Someone's coming.
Someone's coming.
273
00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:03,208
Could you give me $20?"
274
00:16:03,208 --> 00:16:05,250
275
00:16:13,458 --> 00:16:15,875
I met Robert accidentally
276
00:16:15,875 --> 00:16:18,834
and he was just a boy.
I mean, we were both 20.
277
00:16:18,834 --> 00:16:22,375
He was... He was
a kid going to Pratt,
278
00:16:22,375 --> 00:16:26,458
and we fell in love
and he was my boyfriend.
279
00:16:26,458 --> 00:16:30,000
It was
the first time I had ever
been in love with anybody,
280
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,333
so the fact that it was--
it was somebody as unique
as Patti,
281
00:16:33,333 --> 00:16:37,166
I mean, she was-- she was
a magical kind of person.
282
00:16:37,166 --> 00:16:39,959
So like, you know,
and she was--
283
00:16:39,959 --> 00:16:44,250
she was supportive of
what I was doing, or my magic,
284
00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:46,750
and I was supportive
of her magic.
285
00:16:46,750 --> 00:16:48,542
Neither one of us
were ever jealous,
286
00:16:48,542 --> 00:16:53,041
so it was like,
you know, it was like
a storybook relationship.
287
00:16:56,625 --> 00:16:59,917
He helped me to build
confidence in my work
288
00:16:59,917 --> 00:17:03,458
and to think
of myself as artist,
289
00:17:03,458 --> 00:17:05,750
to have a concept
of oneself as an artist.
290
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:07,875
That was always
really important to Robert,
291
00:17:07,875 --> 00:17:12,041
not as an apprentice,
not as a student,
292
00:17:12,041 --> 00:17:13,917
but as an artist.
293
00:17:15,834 --> 00:17:18,125
I loved photographing
my friends,
294
00:17:18,125 --> 00:17:23,250
and Robert called me and said,
"Can you do some naked
pictures of Patti and me?
295
00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:26,625
I want to make
a little film called
'Garden of Earthly Delights.'"
296
00:17:27,875 --> 00:17:30,667
So then we set up lights
on the back of a chair,
297
00:17:30,667 --> 00:17:33,458
and I just took the pictures
that he asked for.
298
00:17:35,291 --> 00:17:42,083
Robert and Patti were
so beautiful in such
an interesting way
299
00:17:42,083 --> 00:17:44,000
and in an unconventional way,
I think.
300
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,625
He exuded this kind of
androgynous sexuality,
301
00:17:48,625 --> 00:17:50,583
and so did Patti.
302
00:17:50,583 --> 00:17:52,667
Patti was drawing
all the time,
303
00:17:52,667 --> 00:17:56,917
and Robert was drawing all
the time and making things.
304
00:17:56,917 --> 00:17:58,542
You know, it was messy.
305
00:17:58,542 --> 00:18:00,959
There was stuff
hanging around,
tacked up on the walls.
306
00:18:00,959 --> 00:18:03,458
It looked like a scene
from a Godard movie.
307
00:18:09,125 --> 00:18:13,417
We sat for hours and hours,
night after night, drawing
308
00:18:13,417 --> 00:18:17,875
and, you know, drawing from
each other as well as drawing.
309
00:18:17,875 --> 00:18:22,458
I'm a thief and I dig it.
310
00:18:22,458 --> 00:18:25,458
A good thief never hesitates.
311
00:18:25,458 --> 00:18:28,250
A good thief steals clean.
312
00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:32,417
And I'm stealing now.
And I'm stealing now.
313
00:18:32,417 --> 00:18:35,000
And I'm stealing now.
315
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,500
The Chelsea has been home
316
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:41,250
for more than a century
to a colony of artists
317
00:18:41,250 --> 00:18:44,083
who have also celebrated it
in books,
318
00:18:44,083 --> 00:18:46,500
poems, plays,
dance, and painting.
319
00:18:49,583 --> 00:18:51,333
I kept on saying to Patti...
320
00:19:10,291 --> 00:19:13,583
I loved them.
We were like a family.
321
00:19:13,583 --> 00:19:17,834
He kept telling me
I was like a sister.
322
00:19:17,834 --> 00:19:22,291
Patti was working like crazy
to let us live.
323
00:19:22,291 --> 00:19:24,166
I mean, she was very generous,
324
00:19:24,166 --> 00:19:27,834
and she wasn't jealous of me
at all, which is wonderful.
325
00:19:32,250 --> 00:19:34,792
She trusted me
with Robert, totally.
326
00:19:34,792 --> 00:19:37,750
I never was in love with him
327
00:19:37,750 --> 00:19:41,041
or had any sexual
feelings for him,
328
00:19:41,041 --> 00:19:43,542
but we were very close.
329
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,041
We would sit
in my totally white,
empty room at the Chelsea,
330
00:19:51,041 --> 00:19:55,000
which supposedly had
had Oscar Wilde stay in it,
331
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,417
and had had Jackson Pollock
stay in it.
332
00:19:57,417 --> 00:20:01,959
And I had Warhol's clouds
floating, the helium clouds.
333
00:20:01,959 --> 00:20:03,792
That's all I had in the room,
334
00:20:03,792 --> 00:20:05,417
and a mattress.
335
00:20:05,417 --> 00:20:08,250
We lived on the floor
and it was clean enough
to eat off of them.
336
00:20:08,250 --> 00:20:11,291
That's exactly what we did.
337
00:20:11,291 --> 00:20:14,667
It was a 25-hour
art show all the time,
338
00:20:14,667 --> 00:20:17,792
or movie set or whatever
you would wanna call the life.
339
00:20:17,792 --> 00:20:19,834
It was just
the life being recorded.
340
00:20:19,834 --> 00:20:22,750
In a stark,
sun-drenched studio,
341
00:20:22,750 --> 00:20:25,542
lives filmmaker
Sandra Daley.
342
00:20:25,542 --> 00:20:27,333
I called him up, I said,
343
00:20:27,333 --> 00:20:29,875
"Could you bring over
some of the things
344
00:20:29,875 --> 00:20:31,542
"and put them up on the walls?
345
00:20:31,542 --> 00:20:33,792
Because there's nothing here,
you know, it's all white."
346
00:20:33,792 --> 00:20:36,458
And he came over
with the stuff,
347
00:20:36,458 --> 00:20:41,125
and I looked, I thought,
"God, leather pants
with a cock sticking out."
348
00:20:41,125 --> 00:20:43,333
I thought, "Why not?"
It looked fabulous.
349
00:20:43,333 --> 00:20:47,041
I was working
with articles of clothing.
350
00:20:47,041 --> 00:20:48,959
They were kind of
like fetish sculpture.
351
00:20:48,959 --> 00:20:52,708
You know, if I had a jacket
that I wore all the time,
I'd put it in a piece
352
00:20:52,708 --> 00:20:55,959
and, you know.
So it was like assemblage.
353
00:20:55,959 --> 00:20:59,625
What's made you
live in the Chelsea
for the past seven years?
354
00:21:00,625 --> 00:21:03,500
Um, my friends,
I guess, live here,
355
00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:06,667
and my teachers.
356
00:21:06,667 --> 00:21:08,375
It's my home.
357
00:21:08,375 --> 00:21:11,917
Robert didn't say much.
358
00:21:11,917 --> 00:21:15,166
He didn't talk at all,
did he, in that clip?
359
00:21:19,667 --> 00:21:21,333
Robert could sit in silence
360
00:21:21,333 --> 00:21:24,208
a lot more comfortably
than I could.
361
00:21:25,875 --> 00:21:27,959
I'm Edward Mapplethorpe.
362
00:21:29,417 --> 00:21:31,417
Robert Mapplethorpe's brother.
364
00:21:34,959 --> 00:21:37,667
I was three years of age
when he left the house.
365
00:21:37,667 --> 00:21:41,667
I remember just waiting
anxiously on my stoop
366
00:21:41,667 --> 00:21:43,834
and knowing Robert
and Patti were coming.
367
00:21:43,834 --> 00:21:46,834
And then I'd be like,
"Wow." Like, "Wow,
look at these guys."
368
00:21:46,834 --> 00:21:49,708
I mean, they didn't
look like anybody else.
369
00:21:49,708 --> 00:21:51,542
They didn't talk
like anybody else.
370
00:21:51,542 --> 00:21:53,959
I would say, creature.
They were like creatures.
371
00:21:53,959 --> 00:21:56,291
Just the way he dressed,
the way he carried himself.
372
00:21:56,291 --> 00:22:00,667
The way his hair was,
the way, uh...
373
00:22:00,667 --> 00:22:02,667
It was just...
374
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:07,041
It encompassed him.
375
00:22:07,041 --> 00:22:10,959
The art,
the artist encompassed him.
376
00:22:10,959 --> 00:22:14,375
There was no separation.
377
00:22:21,417 --> 00:22:24,792
378
00:22:56,375 --> 00:22:57,834
Wow.
379
00:22:58,875 --> 00:23:01,417
I see them as exquisite.
380
00:23:02,667 --> 00:23:05,041
Most porn looks amateurish
381
00:23:05,041 --> 00:23:09,083
and lower class.
382
00:23:10,959 --> 00:23:14,250
Just make it look like,
383
00:23:14,250 --> 00:23:17,542
I think I said
a Louis Quinze chair,
384
00:23:17,542 --> 00:23:21,041
so that it just
takes your breath away.
385
00:23:21,041 --> 00:23:24,834
It doesn't matter
what the subject matter is.
386
00:23:26,333 --> 00:23:31,083
It's like a love story...
to porn, maybe.
387
00:23:33,375 --> 00:23:35,417
There was a feeling
I could get
388
00:23:35,417 --> 00:23:37,792
through looking
at pornographic imagery,
389
00:23:37,792 --> 00:23:40,834
and I thought if I could
somehow retain that feeling,
you know,
390
00:23:40,834 --> 00:23:44,000
it was like,
maybe it was the forbidden
because I was young, you know.
391
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,000
That if I could get
that across and make
an art statement,
392
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,333
make it do it in a way
that just kind of, like,
393
00:23:51,333 --> 00:23:53,333
reached a certain
kind of perfection
394
00:23:53,333 --> 00:23:58,083
that I would be doing
something that was
uniquely my own.
395
00:23:58,083 --> 00:24:01,166
Oh, and that one
even includes a camera.
396
00:24:01,166 --> 00:24:03,250
Right.
And that--
He highlighted it.
397
00:24:03,250 --> 00:24:05,625
And this was before he was
even making photographs.
I think.
398
00:24:05,625 --> 00:24:08,542
But this is when
he started thinking,
"It may be cheaper for me..."
399
00:24:08,542 --> 00:24:11,792
Yeah. Yeah.
...to take photographs
than buy all this porn.
400
00:24:12,875 --> 00:24:14,625
Same great film...
401
00:24:14,625 --> 00:24:18,333
I wanted raw material
that originated with myself.
402
00:24:18,333 --> 00:24:22,250
I felt that I was stealing
them from other people,
403
00:24:22,250 --> 00:24:25,250
and so that's how
I started with the Polaroids.
404
00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:28,125
You know, it was not because
I wanted to be a photographer.
406
00:24:30,041 --> 00:24:31,792
We had a Polaroid camera
407
00:24:31,792 --> 00:24:34,375
and Polaroid film
was really expensive,
408
00:24:34,375 --> 00:24:39,708
so my focus
was always that Robert
got what he needed first.
409
00:24:39,708 --> 00:24:42,834
And we had
so little money for film.
410
00:24:42,834 --> 00:24:46,542
We concentrated on
getting him the film.
411
00:24:46,542 --> 00:24:49,291
It was all there
from the start.
412
00:24:49,291 --> 00:24:51,875
And when I first started
taking Polaroids,
413
00:24:51,875 --> 00:24:55,291
I was working with photographs
that dealt with sexuality,
414
00:24:55,291 --> 00:24:59,208
portraits, flowers,
and still lives
415
00:24:59,208 --> 00:25:01,917
because I used the still lives
to experiment with lighting.
416
00:25:01,917 --> 00:25:06,583
These are the first times
that Robert took emulsion.
417
00:25:06,583 --> 00:25:11,708
He washed it off
of the Polaroid till it
floated above the base
418
00:25:11,708 --> 00:25:13,959
and stretched them out.
419
00:25:13,959 --> 00:25:16,041
That's me, ugly as ever.
420
00:25:16,041 --> 00:25:17,875
Here's Patti.
421
00:25:20,834 --> 00:25:24,417
And that's David Croland.
422
00:25:24,417 --> 00:25:26,917
I'm really not
a model anymore.
423
00:25:26,917 --> 00:25:30,583
I'm just a...
you know, an object.
424
00:25:30,583 --> 00:25:33,625
If you want an explanation
of why I'm wearing this robe,
425
00:25:33,625 --> 00:25:37,208
it's for Robert,
and Robert liked robes,
426
00:25:37,208 --> 00:25:39,417
and he liked black silk.
427
00:25:39,417 --> 00:25:41,959
And I thought twice
about it, and then I thought,
428
00:25:41,959 --> 00:25:45,291
"You're not gonna
think three times."
429
00:25:45,291 --> 00:25:48,834
Patti is the first girl
he photographed for Polaroid
430
00:25:48,834 --> 00:25:50,583
and I was the first boy.
431
00:25:51,542 --> 00:25:52,500
432
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:57,708
I met Robert in 1970
on Memorial Day,
433
00:25:57,708 --> 00:26:00,625
on a steamy hot day.
434
00:26:00,625 --> 00:26:02,458
As soon as he got his camera,
435
00:26:02,458 --> 00:26:05,083
the film was loaded
and my clothes were off.
436
00:26:05,083 --> 00:26:08,667
Starting with a robe
437
00:26:08,667 --> 00:26:12,041
and then the robe was, like,
here, et cetera, et cetera.
438
00:26:12,041 --> 00:26:13,917
He photographed me
a lot in that.
439
00:26:13,917 --> 00:26:17,208
And in those days,
I just thought, "Who cares?
Polaroid film?"
440
00:26:17,208 --> 00:26:19,458
I was used
to being photographed
by the big format,
441
00:26:19,458 --> 00:26:22,750
you know, by...
Should we drop some names?
442
00:26:22,750 --> 00:26:24,125
Someone said,
"Stop dropping names."
443
00:26:24,125 --> 00:26:26,708
I said, "I can't help it if
everyone I know is fantastic."
444
00:26:26,708 --> 00:26:30,417
So I thought
these Polaroids were like,
"What the hell are these?"
445
00:26:30,417 --> 00:26:34,583
I saw very quickly that
he wasn't just stacking up
a bunch of Polaroids.
446
00:26:34,583 --> 00:26:36,000
He was making
stuff out of them.
447
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:41,834
He was incorporating them
into a new type of art,
448
00:26:41,834 --> 00:26:44,166
which no one was doing.
449
00:26:44,166 --> 00:26:45,959
No one.
450
00:26:45,959 --> 00:26:47,250
Uh-uh.
451
00:26:47,250 --> 00:26:52,917
And then someone called Patti
to say they are boyfriends.
452
00:26:52,917 --> 00:26:57,875
So that was...
We were busted.
453
00:26:57,875 --> 00:27:00,708
Patti knew that
I was helping Robert,
454
00:27:00,708 --> 00:27:03,834
so there was no animosity,
not at all.
455
00:27:03,834 --> 00:27:05,834
At least, I don't think so.
456
00:27:07,708 --> 00:27:10,542
When you're young, you don't
have much of a conscience.
457
00:27:10,542 --> 00:27:14,542
I mean, when you're young,
I don't even know
if you think.
458
00:27:14,542 --> 00:27:19,041
I don't even think it's a good
idea to think, to this day.
459
00:27:19,041 --> 00:27:21,041
It's just better to do stuff.
460
00:27:22,959 --> 00:27:25,917
I had this
small amount of money.
461
00:27:25,917 --> 00:27:27,542
I could make a movie.
462
00:27:27,542 --> 00:27:31,500
I said, "Robert, you can pick
out anything you want to do."
463
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:33,708
I just thought it
would be interesting to have
464
00:27:33,708 --> 00:27:35,291
a ring through your tit
465
00:27:35,291 --> 00:27:38,250
because I maybe seen it
in a movie or something,
466
00:27:38,250 --> 00:27:42,041
but it wasn't something
anybody had at that moment.
467
00:27:42,041 --> 00:27:45,959
And all of a sudden,
there was a whole situation
where I was...
468
00:27:45,959 --> 00:27:49,250
to get my nipple pierced.
469
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:52,750
I had done a number of films
for Andy Warhol,
470
00:27:52,750 --> 00:27:54,166
so I was used--
471
00:27:54,166 --> 00:27:57,792
and as a model
I was used to having
the camera trained on me.
472
00:27:57,792 --> 00:27:59,625
Yes.
473
00:27:59,625 --> 00:28:03,000
But I had no idea
where that film was going.
474
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,125
Where that film went was
to the Museum of Modern Art,
475
00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:10,083
and it showed there
at a big screening.
476
00:28:10,083 --> 00:28:12,166
MoMA was very crowded,
477
00:28:12,166 --> 00:28:15,375
and I was writing film reviews
then for the "Village Voice,"
478
00:28:15,375 --> 00:28:17,917
and I remember Robert was
standing against the wall
479
00:28:17,917 --> 00:28:21,667
and he had this sort of
angelic kind of hair,
480
00:28:21,667 --> 00:28:24,750
and I guess I had a crush
on him and whatever.
481
00:28:24,750 --> 00:28:28,917
Right way, in my mind,
I saw him as an angel
and a devil.
482
00:28:31,375 --> 00:28:34,917
Then Patti has
this brilliant monologue
483
00:28:34,917 --> 00:28:38,375
that she did
as the soundtrack.
484
00:28:38,375 --> 00:28:41,083
I read this book,
Robert had this book in his--
485
00:28:41,083 --> 00:28:43,792
he had this book in his drawer
called "Leather Boys,"
486
00:28:43,792 --> 00:28:46,625
and, like, I picked it up
the other night
because he went out.
487
00:28:46,625 --> 00:28:50,166
Once he got his
leather pants, he would be
down on Christopher Street.
488
00:28:51,458 --> 00:28:53,959
Like, it was like
my boyfriend or nothing.
489
00:28:53,959 --> 00:28:56,208
I guess the reason--
the only reason
I don't like it
490
00:28:56,208 --> 00:28:57,959
is because, like,
they got secrets.
491
00:29:00,166 --> 00:29:03,166
"In sharp counterpoint
to the delicacy of the visuals
492
00:29:03,166 --> 00:29:07,458
"is the harsh and hilarious
soundtrack by Patti Smith,
493
00:29:07,458 --> 00:29:10,250
"poet, Robert's
ex-girlfriend..."
494
00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:13,542
"...who, it seems, dislikes
homosexuals because,
495
00:29:13,542 --> 00:29:16,208
"A, she feels left out,
496
00:29:16,208 --> 00:29:19,333
and B, they use
their assholes."
497
00:29:19,333 --> 00:29:20,875
498
00:29:20,875 --> 00:29:24,917
He called me after the review
came out and said that
he really liked it
499
00:29:24,917 --> 00:29:28,667
and could we, like,
meet for a cup of coffee
or something.
501
00:29:36,875 --> 00:29:40,750
Robert and I would,
you know, meet up, like,
at 4:00 in the afternoon,
502
00:29:40,750 --> 00:29:43,041
go into some
deserted restaurant and sit--
503
00:29:43,041 --> 00:29:45,667
you know, just order coffee,
504
00:29:45,667 --> 00:29:47,625
and he only had
a Polaroid then.
505
00:29:47,625 --> 00:29:49,959
He didn't even have a camera.
506
00:29:49,959 --> 00:29:54,166
But he was already,
you know, planning on
his first exhibition,
507
00:29:54,166 --> 00:29:57,250
and who he was going to invite
and who he hoped would come.
508
00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:59,792
This is Robert Mapplethorpe's
announcement
509
00:29:59,792 --> 00:30:01,708
for his first solo exhibition.
510
00:30:01,708 --> 00:30:06,000
The envelope is embossed
by Tiffany and Company.
511
00:30:07,959 --> 00:30:09,625
It was a show of Polaroids.
512
00:30:09,625 --> 00:30:15,542
He encased his announcement
in the "don't touch here"
safety cover
513
00:30:15,542 --> 00:30:18,000
from the Polaroid film pack.
514
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,500
Terpak:
Mapplethorpe says
in several interviews,
515
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:23,458
"An exhibition doesn't begin
when you go to the opening.
516
00:30:23,458 --> 00:30:26,750
It begins when
you get the invitation."
517
00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:29,834
It's a small dot sticker...
518
00:30:29,834 --> 00:30:32,500
that's really not opaque.
519
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:35,083
520
00:30:35,083 --> 00:30:38,333
But what do you
want the viewer to feel
521
00:30:38,333 --> 00:30:40,083
when they open
that invitation?
522
00:30:40,083 --> 00:30:42,959
I want them to remember it,
that's all.
523
00:30:42,959 --> 00:30:44,917
You're thinking of, like,
524
00:30:44,917 --> 00:30:47,750
standing out
from this huge mass--
525
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:51,083
Why can't it be in terms
of one's whole lifestyle?
526
00:30:51,083 --> 00:30:52,458
You know what I'm saying?
527
00:30:52,458 --> 00:30:57,875
The whole point
of being an artist
or making a statement
528
00:30:57,875 --> 00:30:59,667
is to learn about yourself.
529
00:30:59,667 --> 00:31:01,792
I think that's
the most important part.
530
00:31:01,792 --> 00:31:05,125
The photographs, I think,
are less important
531
00:31:05,125 --> 00:31:08,417
than the life
that one is leading.
533
00:31:19,792 --> 00:31:25,125
I would just run around
and give people their food.
534
00:31:25,125 --> 00:31:29,959
And it really was
a comprehensive scene
of downtown artists.
535
00:31:29,959 --> 00:31:36,166
Not a closed world,
but it was, you know, almost
like a clubhouse in a way.
536
00:31:40,708 --> 00:31:44,500
I probably saw Robert
almost every night of my life.
537
00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:48,917
You know, most people
that I knew lived
in such horrible places
538
00:31:48,917 --> 00:31:52,959
that you really only knew
where they lived
if you had sex with them.
539
00:31:52,959 --> 00:31:56,291
Lots of times in Max's,
he would come and sit with me,
you know.
540
00:31:56,291 --> 00:31:58,625
It was probably the time
I enjoyed Robert the most
541
00:31:58,625 --> 00:32:00,834
because he was
an incredibly amusing gossip.
542
00:32:00,834 --> 00:32:04,959
He was extremely good-looking
in a very particular way,
you know.
543
00:32:04,959 --> 00:32:07,667
No one that saw Robert
544
00:32:07,667 --> 00:32:10,583
did not have a crush
on him immediately.
545
00:32:10,583 --> 00:32:13,834
No one. Everyone.
Dogs liked him.
546
00:32:13,834 --> 00:32:18,333
He looked kind of like,
you know, a kind of
ruined Cupid.
547
00:32:18,333 --> 00:32:23,500
And he was very reliant
on his charm, you know.
548
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:26,458
I mean, in other words,
he made great use of it,
549
00:32:26,458 --> 00:32:28,959
by which I mean,
productive to Robert.
550
00:32:28,959 --> 00:32:32,708
Robert was not a hustler.
Robert didn't have to hustle.
551
00:32:32,708 --> 00:32:35,375
People hustled Robert...
552
00:32:35,375 --> 00:32:38,333
mainly out of his pants
if they could.
553
00:32:38,333 --> 00:32:40,000
Me too, by the way.
554
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,208
Robert didn't think anything
was wrong with his ambition.
555
00:32:45,208 --> 00:32:47,041
He didn't think of it
as selling out.
556
00:32:47,041 --> 00:32:52,542
He didn't think--
He just, you know, pursued it
the way that people now do.
557
00:32:52,542 --> 00:32:55,208
Was Robert ambitious?
558
00:32:57,375 --> 00:33:00,542
There is no word for it.
559
00:33:00,542 --> 00:33:02,959
For either of them.
560
00:33:02,959 --> 00:33:07,500
That is an understatement.
561
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:09,208
For both of them.
562
00:33:13,250 --> 00:33:14,708
Yeah.
563
00:33:17,333 --> 00:33:19,041
Unbelievably.
564
00:33:20,083 --> 00:33:21,959
I went away for a summer,
565
00:33:21,959 --> 00:33:26,291
and when I got back,
Robert was suddenly into S&M.
566
00:33:27,417 --> 00:33:30,166
One day, I showed up
at his place
567
00:33:30,166 --> 00:33:31,917
and he was wearing
leather pants
568
00:33:31,917 --> 00:33:34,458
and it looked like a radio
attached to his crotch.
569
00:33:34,458 --> 00:33:35,959
I said,
"What the hell is that?"
570
00:33:35,959 --> 00:33:38,625
He said, "Oh, it's a codpiece.
Isn't it great?"
571
00:33:38,625 --> 00:33:42,000
I said, "This is like
the beginning of the end if
you keep dressing like this."
572
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:47,417
He started to trick me out
in leather jackets
and handcuffs.
573
00:33:47,417 --> 00:33:51,583
He started to get
not me, at all,
574
00:33:51,583 --> 00:33:53,417
and more him,
575
00:33:53,417 --> 00:33:56,125
and he wanted me to go--
always to go further.
576
00:33:56,125 --> 00:34:00,625
And I thought,
"That's not gonna happen.
I'm a model."
577
00:34:02,083 --> 00:34:07,792
Sam Wagstaff, I only knew that
he was eccentric, handsome,
578
00:34:07,792 --> 00:34:12,708
and then when
he took me to this loft
later that day, rich.
579
00:34:12,708 --> 00:34:15,917
But right before we went
to his loft on Bond Street,
580
00:34:15,917 --> 00:34:19,500
he spied a little,
tiny picture of Robert
581
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:22,458
taken in a photo booth
with a little sailor cap on.
582
00:34:22,458 --> 00:34:24,375
It looked like
a Jean Genet drawing.
583
00:34:24,375 --> 00:34:26,708
And he said, "Who is this?"
584
00:34:26,708 --> 00:34:29,750
I said, "That's my
soon-to-be ex-boyfriend."
585
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:32,667
So I called Robert up
and I said, "Listen.
586
00:34:32,667 --> 00:34:34,875
"Your ship's come in,
it's in my harbor.
587
00:34:34,875 --> 00:34:36,500
"You're gonna
jump on this boat.
588
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:41,125
You're gonna love him,
he's gonna love you,
I can tell."
589
00:34:41,125 --> 00:34:43,375
They had a date that week,
590
00:34:43,375 --> 00:34:46,542
and they fell in love
very quickly.
591
00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:49,208
Sam was his protector,
in every way.
592
00:34:49,208 --> 00:34:52,083
You know, in the way that
girls are protected by men.
593
00:34:52,083 --> 00:34:55,166
It was a beautiful match.
594
00:34:55,166 --> 00:34:59,000
Beautiful. Really beautiful.
596
00:35:23,875 --> 00:35:27,750
I knew other people who had
older guys who supported them
and stuff like that,
597
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:30,041
but Sam devoted himself.
598
00:35:30,041 --> 00:35:31,708
The career Robert had,
599
00:35:31,708 --> 00:35:33,792
I don't believe
would've existed without Sam.
601
00:35:52,375 --> 00:35:56,708
I met him when he moved
next to us on Bond Street,
602
00:35:56,708 --> 00:36:00,000
so he was literally
the boy next door,
603
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,917
and we just instantly
became friends.
604
00:36:05,375 --> 00:36:09,708
It's this little Cobblestone
Street in New York.
605
00:36:09,708 --> 00:36:13,750
Robert lived
at 24 Bond Street,
606
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:17,417
and Brice and Helen Marden
lived at 26 Bond Street,
607
00:36:17,417 --> 00:36:19,750
and I lived at 42 Bond Street.
608
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:23,959
And the '70s in New York was
very different than now.
609
00:36:23,959 --> 00:36:26,417
New York was bankrupt,
610
00:36:26,417 --> 00:36:29,625
things were pretty
corrupt and violent.
611
00:36:29,625 --> 00:36:31,250
There was a lot of crime,
612
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:35,792
and, you know, Bond and Bowery
was in the middle of,
613
00:36:35,792 --> 00:36:40,083
you know, people
sleeping in the doorways
614
00:36:40,083 --> 00:36:42,333
and lying on the streets,
615
00:36:42,333 --> 00:36:45,250
but it was the art world.
616
00:36:47,583 --> 00:36:50,583
When we first moved here,
I was hysterical.
617
00:36:50,583 --> 00:36:54,125
I said, "We've just spent
40,000 bucks on this dump.
618
00:36:54,125 --> 00:36:55,875
"And look at this area.
Look at this."
619
00:36:55,875 --> 00:36:58,291
I mean, it's, like, miles
before you can get
620
00:36:58,291 --> 00:37:01,250
to a restaurant,
a grocery store,
621
00:37:01,250 --> 00:37:03,792
you know, a light at night,
the place is dark.
622
00:37:03,792 --> 00:37:06,417
You had this beautiful,
free-flowing stream,
623
00:37:06,417 --> 00:37:08,875
then there'd be all
the soapsuds and garbage.
624
00:37:08,875 --> 00:37:11,583
Junkies.
You see, that's the way
Bond Street was.
625
00:37:11,583 --> 00:37:15,625
And now, of course,
the last time I tracked it,
626
00:37:15,625 --> 00:37:20,291
the penthouse
in that building, I think,
sold for 19 million.
627
00:37:22,417 --> 00:37:26,583
I never thought we'd have
any money. Did you?
628
00:37:26,583 --> 00:37:31,291
No, it wasn't--
it wasn't the intention.
629
00:37:31,291 --> 00:37:35,834
I mean, it wasn't
as though it was just
a band of innocents, you know.
630
00:37:35,834 --> 00:37:41,500
You came to New York
because you felt you had
to be in New York,
631
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:46,291
you know, or else you would
have just gone to some place
that was nice to live.
632
00:37:48,375 --> 00:37:49,834
He loved coming over
633
00:37:49,834 --> 00:37:51,875
and taking photographs
of my bats.
634
00:37:51,875 --> 00:37:55,291
You know, he wasn't
Robert Mapplethorpe
in the beginning.
635
00:37:55,291 --> 00:38:00,500
You know, there was
no thought that this was
Robert Mapplethorpe, right?
636
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,208
Right, Brice?
Right, yeah.
637
00:38:02,208 --> 00:38:07,125
Nothing, you know. We were
just all doing our work
and chatting about it.
638
00:38:08,750 --> 00:38:11,792
We'd go to these funny
little used book stores
639
00:38:11,792 --> 00:38:15,875
and they'd have, like,
cardboard boxes filled
with old postcards
640
00:38:15,875 --> 00:38:17,708
and filled with
old photo prints,
641
00:38:17,708 --> 00:38:19,875
and Robert would go through
them and he'd find, you know,
642
00:38:19,875 --> 00:38:24,125
a Weston or a Steichen
or something.
643
00:38:24,125 --> 00:38:27,542
And it was like no one knew
what it was, and it was like
$5 or $10,
644
00:38:27,542 --> 00:38:32,542
and he would do that much more
once he got together with Sam.
645
00:38:32,542 --> 00:38:35,542
See, what
happened is I started
collecting photography,
646
00:38:35,542 --> 00:38:40,166
so I studied it through
holding these pictures
in my hand,
647
00:38:40,166 --> 00:38:42,959
which is probably the best way
to study photography.
648
00:38:42,959 --> 00:38:47,291
Robert and I liked to lie
on his bed and look at all
the photographs Sam bought,
649
00:38:47,291 --> 00:38:51,542
and then he would tell me
how much they were worth
and we would laugh.
651
00:38:53,166 --> 00:38:56,875
Never having really looked
at photographs as art,
652
00:38:56,875 --> 00:39:01,542
it really took Robert
to bring me to photography.
654
00:39:05,041 --> 00:39:06,166
What are you up to?
655
00:39:06,166 --> 00:39:07,250
I've been working.
656
00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:09,417
You should see
some of Robert's works.
657
00:39:09,417 --> 00:39:10,959
I'll be getting down
after the sale.
658
00:39:10,959 --> 00:39:15,125
There was something
about the quality
659
00:39:15,125 --> 00:39:20,000
of even the Polaroids,
which startled me.
660
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,166
Something very knife-sharp
about his work.
661
00:39:25,166 --> 00:39:28,208
I think this is the most
intimate thing we have
in the archive
662
00:39:28,208 --> 00:39:30,417
between Sam and Robert.
Mm-hmm.
663
00:39:30,417 --> 00:39:31,667
Robert doesn't write,
664
00:39:31,667 --> 00:39:36,333
so in a way, this linen album
is his love letter to Sam.
665
00:39:36,333 --> 00:39:39,750
You can see the dialogue
that's going on between them
666
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:44,291
about photography, and love
and all that sexuality.
667
00:39:44,291 --> 00:39:45,667
Yeah.
668
00:39:45,667 --> 00:39:49,000
I used to be
slightly embarrassed
669
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,542
by certain photographs
that Robert took.
670
00:39:54,542 --> 00:39:58,333
He helped me get over that.
672
00:40:10,625 --> 00:40:17,291
Robert, has always liked
to play on the edge
of pornography.
673
00:40:17,291 --> 00:40:20,125
I always was
fascinated with the idea
674
00:40:20,125 --> 00:40:23,208
of taking a loaded
subject like sexuality
675
00:40:23,208 --> 00:40:28,166
and somehow bringing it
to a level that it hadn't
been to before.
676
00:40:28,166 --> 00:40:31,625
He's absolutely
wedded to truth
677
00:40:31,625 --> 00:40:37,834
and opens it up
in front of his camera
in an almost surgical way.
678
00:40:37,834 --> 00:40:40,166
And I remember
somebody saying,
679
00:40:40,166 --> 00:40:42,917
"You know, you really
shouldn't do that because it's
gonna fuck up your career."
680
00:40:42,917 --> 00:40:46,917
And I said I thought
it was stupid for him
to even think that way.
681
00:40:46,917 --> 00:40:50,667
I was convinced that
what I was doing was
the right thing to be doing.
683
00:41:02,375 --> 00:41:07,625
I met Robert in the early '70s
on Fire Island,
684
00:41:07,625 --> 00:41:12,542
where his friend, Wagstaff,
was renting a beautiful house
685
00:41:12,542 --> 00:41:15,500
and they invited me to stay.
686
00:41:18,417 --> 00:41:21,875
The '70s was a sexual time,
687
00:41:21,875 --> 00:41:25,458
and Fire Island,
we went for sex,
688
00:41:25,458 --> 00:41:32,250
for that
beautiful availability
of sexual encounters.
689
00:41:32,250 --> 00:41:37,708
I mean, the drugs
were floating around.
690
00:41:37,708 --> 00:41:40,000
It was heaven.
691
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,583
Whenever we went out,
I was recognized, right?
692
00:41:44,583 --> 00:41:47,917
And people stopped me
and Robert liked that,
693
00:41:47,917 --> 00:41:53,750
and he was craving
for fame and he enjoyed
to be seen with me,
694
00:41:53,750 --> 00:42:00,917
but he was sort of
feeling he should be the one
who should be recognized.
695
00:42:00,917 --> 00:42:06,250
And so I agreed,
as a friend, to pose for him.
696
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:08,667
Then when
the weekend was over,
697
00:42:08,667 --> 00:42:15,375
Robert went back to New York
City to work on his career.
698
00:42:15,375 --> 00:42:18,166
For me, the ambition
was to get laid.
699
00:42:18,166 --> 00:42:23,208
Robert's ambition was
to be a great photographer
and that's why he is,
700
00:42:23,208 --> 00:42:28,291
because in order
to be a Mapplethorpe,
you had to work hard.
701
00:42:28,291 --> 00:42:31,458
702
00:42:31,458 --> 00:42:33,583
He walked into
my office at "Drummer,"
703
00:42:33,583 --> 00:42:36,625
a major gay magazine
where I was the editor,
704
00:42:36,625 --> 00:42:39,291
wearing leather chaps
and a leather jacket,
705
00:42:39,291 --> 00:42:41,625
carrying a black
leather portfolio,
706
00:42:41,625 --> 00:42:45,500
and said, "Hello,
I'm Robert Mapplethorpe,
707
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:47,500
the pornographic
photographer."
708
00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:50,041
Well, everybody that came
to my desk
709
00:42:50,041 --> 00:42:52,041
was a pornographic
photographer.
710
00:42:52,041 --> 00:42:55,083
The problem in the '70s
was everybody was having sex.
711
00:42:55,083 --> 00:42:56,708
Photographers
weren't shooting,
712
00:42:56,708 --> 00:42:59,083
painters weren't painting,
writers weren't writing,
713
00:42:59,083 --> 00:43:01,083
but Robert was functioning.
714
00:43:01,083 --> 00:43:03,291
And we ended up in bed,
then we became
715
00:43:03,291 --> 00:43:07,166
bicoastal lovers
for the next three years.
716
00:43:07,166 --> 00:43:09,875
He knew that he needed
to be written about,
717
00:43:09,875 --> 00:43:12,208
which is one of the reasons
he came to "Drummer."
719
00:43:18,667 --> 00:43:21,000
I was just one of many
writers that he approached.
720
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,166
I mean, nearly all of his
friends were writers.
721
00:43:24,166 --> 00:43:25,834
He wanted to be a legend.
722
00:43:25,834 --> 00:43:30,083
He told me he wanted to be
a story told in beds at night
around the world.
723
00:43:30,083 --> 00:43:32,333
He had that kind of drive,
724
00:43:32,333 --> 00:43:35,792
and in a way, that's part
of what makes geniuses,
725
00:43:35,792 --> 00:43:40,083
this self-centeredness
and this ability
to use people.
726
00:43:40,083 --> 00:43:42,667
So I was someone
who could help Robert.
727
00:43:42,667 --> 00:43:46,667
I had that power of being
editor of "Interview,"
728
00:43:46,667 --> 00:43:48,667
but I don't think
we used him that much
729
00:43:48,667 --> 00:43:51,208
because I was aware
that Andy didn't like him.
730
00:43:51,208 --> 00:43:53,708
He always just said,
"Oh, he's so dirty-looking,"
731
00:43:53,708 --> 00:43:55,792
and, you know,
"He's so creepy,"
732
00:43:55,792 --> 00:43:57,750
and Andy didn't like
anybody who took Polaroids.
733
00:43:57,750 --> 00:44:01,542
He thought he sort of was
the only person who should
be taking Polaroids.
734
00:44:01,542 --> 00:44:07,500
But once Andy realized that
Robert was with Sam Wagstaff,
he started to like him.
735
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:11,333
So it was okay for me to then
use him for "Interview,"
736
00:44:11,333 --> 00:44:13,667
and we sent him to Mustique.
737
00:44:16,750 --> 00:44:21,458
We met Robert, my husband
and I, on our way to Mustique,
738
00:44:21,458 --> 00:44:24,875
in a private little plane.
739
00:44:24,875 --> 00:44:27,083
I haven't heard of him at all,
740
00:44:27,083 --> 00:44:29,542
but I was fascinated
by his mind,
741
00:44:29,542 --> 00:44:33,250
and on top of that,
he was so good-looking.
742
00:44:33,250 --> 00:44:37,083
He said, at one point,
"I want to photograph you."
743
00:44:37,083 --> 00:44:38,583
And I said, "No way."
744
00:44:38,583 --> 00:44:40,250
And he said, "You know what?
745
00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:43,166
"You might regret it later,
746
00:44:43,166 --> 00:44:47,625
"because I'm going
to be a fantastic
and great photographer,
747
00:44:47,625 --> 00:44:50,917
and you're not going to have
a photograph taken by me."
748
00:44:53,333 --> 00:44:55,750
He was a big hit
with the aristocracy,
749
00:44:55,750 --> 00:44:59,250
and he loved Mustique
and then Mustique loved him.
751
00:45:10,917 --> 00:45:13,041
He was living this double
kind of life
752
00:45:13,041 --> 00:45:15,750
where he would be uptown
at a fancy dinner...
Mm-hmm.
753
00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:19,959
...and then he would go
to the Mine Shaft.
754
00:45:19,959 --> 00:45:22,083
It looks well-worn.
756
00:45:23,417 --> 00:45:26,083
Can you imagine it?
It's not just a souvenir.
Back pocket.
757
00:45:26,083 --> 00:45:30,834
Well, that was one of
the key places he went to find
his models, The Mine Shaft.
759
00:45:36,375 --> 00:45:40,583
What went on in the Mine Shaft
for all those years
760
00:45:40,583 --> 00:45:47,333
was two floors of
the most outrageous sex
761
00:45:47,333 --> 00:45:51,500
had this side of Ancient Rome.
762
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:54,208
All kinds of S&M sex,
763
00:45:54,208 --> 00:45:56,500
scatological sex, fetish sex,
764
00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:59,500
from the sling, to the stocks,
to the whipping post.
765
00:45:59,500 --> 00:46:04,166
People talked of a famous
bathtub, I mean, there was
always somebody in it,
766
00:46:04,166 --> 00:46:09,000
and a ring of men around it,
one, two, three layers deep,
767
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,500
everybody jerking off,
touching each other, moving.
768
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:14,959
It's just like a scrum
around that bathtub.
769
00:46:14,959 --> 00:46:19,625
And then the ones in the first
line would piss all over
whoever was in the bathtub.
770
00:46:21,458 --> 00:46:23,834
The work dealing
with sexuality
771
00:46:23,834 --> 00:46:28,667
is very directly related
to my own experiences.
772
00:46:28,667 --> 00:46:34,834
It was an area that
hadn't been explored
in contemporary art,
773
00:46:34,834 --> 00:46:40,500
and so it was an area
that interested me in terms
of making my statement.
774
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:44,750
I was in the perfect situation
in that most of the people
in those photographs
775
00:46:44,750 --> 00:46:48,125
were friends of mine,
and they trusted me.
776
00:46:48,125 --> 00:46:54,000
And I felt like
it was an obligation
to record those things.
777
00:46:55,542 --> 00:46:59,792
Robert and I first met...
at The Mine Shaft.
778
00:46:59,792 --> 00:47:02,250
He comes over and I'm like,
"Oh, here it goes.
779
00:47:02,250 --> 00:47:04,500
"We're gonna have an orgy
780
00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:06,708
or go down in the basement."
781
00:47:06,708 --> 00:47:08,708
He was very good-looking,
782
00:47:08,708 --> 00:47:12,375
you know, all in black
leather. It was like--
it was hot.
783
00:47:12,375 --> 00:47:14,708
He said,
"Let's get out of here,"
784
00:47:14,708 --> 00:47:21,000
and we went home, did a bit
of coke, had some sex.
785
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,667
Very, very, vanilla sex.
786
00:47:23,667 --> 00:47:25,667
He looked bored
out of his mind.
787
00:47:25,667 --> 00:47:27,583
And we were up
in to two hours.
788
00:47:27,583 --> 00:47:34,000
Just as I was nodding off,
get up to do the first shoot.
789
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,875
We did it like 6:30,
7:00 in the morning.
790
00:47:37,875 --> 00:47:41,458
He said he liked the light
coming in the window.
791
00:47:41,458 --> 00:47:44,708
It becomes
a documentary in a sense,
792
00:47:44,708 --> 00:47:47,875
though, I'd like to see it
more as an autobiography.
793
00:47:47,875 --> 00:47:53,750
You know, it's what
I'm involved with
at any given moment.
794
00:47:58,834 --> 00:48:00,458
Leave that open.
795
00:48:04,625 --> 00:48:06,917
I did this
in a shop window.
797
00:48:15,333 --> 00:48:21,583
This is Hockney,
and this is a young
film directress from LA.
798
00:48:21,583 --> 00:48:25,667
I remember this one time
we were at his studio
799
00:48:25,667 --> 00:48:28,667
and he said, "Do you wanna see
my private stuff?"
800
00:48:28,667 --> 00:48:30,750
At that point, all of
his stuff was very taboo.
801
00:48:30,750 --> 00:48:34,333
None of this stuff was
out in public when he was
showing it to us.
802
00:48:34,333 --> 00:48:36,291
It wasn't. It wasn't.
Yeah.
803
00:48:36,291 --> 00:48:40,500
Robert lived not too far
east of my apartment,
804
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:42,500
so I just walked there.
805
00:48:43,834 --> 00:48:46,291
I remember, as I got
closer and closer,
806
00:48:46,291 --> 00:48:49,834
that I felt
increasingly more frightened.
807
00:48:49,834 --> 00:48:53,500
I was a bit anxious,
and I look up
808
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:59,875
and there's Robert
up on the fire escape,
smoking a cigarette,
809
00:48:59,875 --> 00:49:02,166
and I was like,
"Okay, here we go."
811
00:49:05,834 --> 00:49:07,959
A hand-operated elevator.
812
00:49:10,417 --> 00:49:12,458
Five flights.
813
00:49:14,583 --> 00:49:18,625
Very low lit. Devil figures.
814
00:49:20,291 --> 00:49:22,208
Mysterious. It's creepy.
815
00:49:22,208 --> 00:49:25,166
The first thing
that struck me about him,
816
00:49:25,166 --> 00:49:31,166
he was not at all,
you know, the kind of person
817
00:49:31,166 --> 00:49:34,875
that one might think
might make these kind
of photographs.
818
00:49:34,875 --> 00:49:38,000
Yeah. Well, this...
This will pick up?
819
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,667
Yeah, this will
pick up better.
820
00:49:39,667 --> 00:49:42,375
Okay. Now...
821
00:49:42,375 --> 00:49:44,625
He said,
"oh, is that a Sony?"
822
00:49:44,625 --> 00:49:47,125
And I said,
"No, it's not,"
and he said,
823
00:49:47,125 --> 00:49:50,458
"Oh, Panasonic.
Well, Sony is better."
824
00:49:50,458 --> 00:49:55,166
And, you know, teased me
about having the wrong
tape recorder.
825
00:49:56,667 --> 00:50:00,750
In his early work,
Mapplethorpe signed with an X,
826
00:50:00,750 --> 00:50:04,458
so there's a kind of
double entendre here.
827
00:50:04,458 --> 00:50:10,959
Each portfolio, there's
13 gelatin sliver prints
mounted on black board
828
00:50:10,959 --> 00:50:13,083
and signed in graphite.
829
00:50:17,375 --> 00:50:19,375
Sex is, for me,
830
00:50:19,375 --> 00:50:21,250
probably the most
important thing in life.
831
00:50:21,250 --> 00:50:26,125
You know, it's the one area
that offers a bit of magic,
832
00:50:26,125 --> 00:50:28,417
a bit of something
we don't know about.
833
00:50:29,375 --> 00:50:31,959
Just seeing how
his little brother reacted,
834
00:50:31,959 --> 00:50:34,959
he just-- he dug it.
835
00:50:34,959 --> 00:50:42,041
He loved to get
a jolt out of people
and a reaction
836
00:50:42,041 --> 00:50:47,000
because it was power.
They were powerful.
837
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,583
I think sexuality,
like I portray it,
838
00:50:49,583 --> 00:50:52,208
is very much today,
but people, you know,
839
00:50:52,208 --> 00:50:54,667
it would take a few years
before people realize that.
840
00:50:54,667 --> 00:50:56,708
And you don't think
that you're just existing
841
00:50:56,708 --> 00:50:59,250
in a specialized
kind of subculture?
842
00:50:59,250 --> 00:51:01,083
New York is specialized.
843
00:51:01,083 --> 00:51:06,333
but what happens
in New York is indicative
of America finally.
844
00:51:06,333 --> 00:51:10,583
If I was gonna pick an image
that I thought was humorous,
845
00:51:10,583 --> 00:51:16,875
I would pick the man
in the rubber suit with a hose
coming out of his mouth.
847
00:51:23,458 --> 00:51:27,000
That's really disgusting.
849
00:51:35,917 --> 00:51:40,500
I had grown up with abstract
art, and conceptualism,
850
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:46,667
and, you know,
nude men in rubber suits
851
00:51:46,667 --> 00:51:50,166
were not part
of my art education.
852
00:51:50,166 --> 00:51:56,208
So it was hard to know
how to talk about them.
853
00:51:57,834 --> 00:52:00,458
Yeah, I was always
amazed that it shocked.
854
00:52:00,458 --> 00:52:04,000
I mean, because once
I had a photograph
and I had taken it,
855
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,250
it didn't-- it wasn't
shocking to me anymore.
856
00:52:06,250 --> 00:52:09,125
I'd been through
the experience.
857
00:52:09,125 --> 00:52:10,708
Just watching me.
858
00:52:10,708 --> 00:52:13,208
Even though I was perhaps
being tested that day,
859
00:52:13,208 --> 00:52:15,583
I wasn't going to fail.
860
00:52:15,583 --> 00:52:19,542
And then I was, like,
"You know, this is cool.
861
00:52:19,542 --> 00:52:21,708
This is cool."
862
00:52:25,708 --> 00:52:27,166
Maybe they're the best
863
00:52:27,166 --> 00:52:29,125
or the most important
pictures I've taken.
864
00:52:29,125 --> 00:52:33,708
When one sees something
you've never seen before,
it's rather important.
865
00:52:33,708 --> 00:52:35,667
I mean, still, I can
show those to people
866
00:52:35,667 --> 00:52:38,250
and they will have never
seen that image before.
867
00:52:38,250 --> 00:52:40,417
So it opens something up,
868
00:52:40,417 --> 00:52:45,125
and I think
that's what art is about,
is opening something up.
869
00:52:45,125 --> 00:52:49,875
A couple of times, he's like,
"So what do you think Dad
would say about that one?"
870
00:52:49,875 --> 00:52:52,625
There are two
that particularly,
871
00:52:52,625 --> 00:52:55,000
you know,
took my breath away.
872
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,083
One was the pinky
inserted into a penis.
873
00:53:01,125 --> 00:53:03,333
That was like, "Oh, my God."
874
00:53:03,333 --> 00:53:05,708
And the other one
was the fist.
875
00:53:10,208 --> 00:53:13,417
Okay, Robert.
876
00:53:13,417 --> 00:53:17,083
I guess you've definitely
found your voice.
877
00:53:18,583 --> 00:53:21,208
I wanted to do a great
fist fucking photograph,
878
00:53:21,208 --> 00:53:23,166
so I did that picture,
879
00:53:23,166 --> 00:53:25,083
and then he said,
"Now, it's your turn."
880
00:53:25,083 --> 00:53:27,625
So he sort of pinned me
against the wall
and says, "Listen..."
881
00:53:32,834 --> 00:53:34,792
Anyway, once I had
the picture taken,
882
00:53:34,792 --> 00:53:36,667
I thought it was
a really good picture of me.
883
00:53:36,667 --> 00:53:39,625
But most people would say
that that image was horrible.
884
00:53:39,625 --> 00:53:41,625
Image of yourself.
But once they--
886
00:53:43,708 --> 00:53:44,959
It's a good one.
888
00:53:46,750 --> 00:53:51,166
Robert, he said "I can't have
you go home without giving
Mom and Dad something."
889
00:53:51,166 --> 00:53:53,583
So he just went...
890
00:53:53,583 --> 00:53:55,959
and signed it,
"For Mom and Dad."
891
00:53:55,959 --> 00:54:00,375
It was certainly better than
anything else they he had
up on the wall. Sorry.
893
00:54:01,875 --> 00:54:04,792
It was
an "Easter Lilies" print.
894
00:54:04,792 --> 00:54:07,291
Are you proud
of your son?
895
00:54:07,291 --> 00:54:10,333
For the artwork
he did, yes.
896
00:54:10,333 --> 00:54:14,417
But for some of
the photographs that he took,
897
00:54:14,417 --> 00:54:17,542
I just could not accept
them either.
898
00:54:17,542 --> 00:54:20,500
He's done
a beautiful job on flowers.
899
00:54:20,500 --> 00:54:23,458
There was tension.
There was no doubt about it.
900
00:54:23,458 --> 00:54:26,458
One time in particular
being very, very uncomfortable
901
00:54:26,458 --> 00:54:29,000
because my father
wouldn't look at Robert.
902
00:54:31,125 --> 00:54:33,458
My father was
an electrical engineer.
903
00:54:33,458 --> 00:54:36,125
He wore one of
those penholders.
904
00:54:36,125 --> 00:54:37,583
Robert would make
his attempts.
905
00:54:37,583 --> 00:54:39,667
He came with
a Polaroid camera one time
906
00:54:39,667 --> 00:54:44,542
and gave the camera
to my father to--
he did a Polaroid of Robert.
907
00:54:45,875 --> 00:54:48,625
After he left,
my father making mention
908
00:54:48,625 --> 00:54:51,625
of how Robert
shook people's hands.
909
00:54:51,625 --> 00:54:54,708
It wasn't a manly handshake.
910
00:54:54,708 --> 00:54:57,083
It was a soft-set handshake.
911
00:54:59,041 --> 00:55:00,875
Let me say this,
912
00:55:00,875 --> 00:55:05,333
that I thought he was,
for quite a length of time,
913
00:55:05,333 --> 00:55:08,333
but I would never even
mention it to my wife.
914
00:55:08,333 --> 00:55:10,959
Because as far as
my wife is concerned,
915
00:55:10,959 --> 00:55:12,834
he was her favorite.
916
00:55:12,834 --> 00:55:15,583
He and Patti told my parents
they were married.
917
00:55:15,583 --> 00:55:18,291
I remember sending
her birthday cards.
918
00:55:18,291 --> 00:55:23,125
Patti, whatever,
Mrs. Robert Mapplethorpe.
919
00:55:23,125 --> 00:55:24,792
You know?
920
00:55:24,792 --> 00:55:27,417
I think my father always
had suspicions though.
921
00:55:27,417 --> 00:55:32,166
He said, "There's no pictures,
there's no, you know,
there's no certificate."
922
00:55:32,166 --> 00:55:34,542
Did you resent
the fact that he was gay?
923
00:55:34,542 --> 00:55:36,333
I did, yes.
924
00:55:36,333 --> 00:55:38,208
I guess I did, yeah.
925
00:55:38,208 --> 00:55:40,792
He never spoke
to me about it.
926
00:55:42,250 --> 00:55:45,959
Because I guess he knew
I would never accept it.
927
00:55:45,959 --> 00:55:49,125
Admitting that he was gay
or telling me that he's gay,
928
00:55:49,125 --> 00:55:52,583
that wouldn't have
helped matters at all.
929
00:55:52,583 --> 00:55:56,083
Because I probably would've
had more resentment
930
00:55:56,083 --> 00:55:59,708
to that fact
if he had told me.
931
00:56:02,708 --> 00:56:05,417
So he was really
not part of the family,
932
00:56:05,417 --> 00:56:08,417
you know, and it's sad.
933
00:56:08,417 --> 00:56:10,291
It's sad. I so wish,
934
00:56:10,291 --> 00:56:13,959
I could talk to him now
about it all, you know?
935
00:56:13,959 --> 00:56:18,375
But Robert did-- Robert always
wanted to be famous
936
00:56:18,375 --> 00:56:20,625
and he became famous.
937
00:56:20,625 --> 00:56:24,625
"Dear Lloyd, I finally have
a gallery in New York.
938
00:56:24,625 --> 00:56:27,417
"It's run by a woman
named Holly Solomon,
939
00:56:27,417 --> 00:56:29,417
"You probably have
never heard of it,
940
00:56:29,417 --> 00:56:33,333
but it doesn't seem to be
a bad place to be
for the moment."
941
00:56:34,458 --> 00:56:38,667
I said,
"Before I show your work,
942
00:56:38,667 --> 00:56:41,000
I would like you to do
my portrait."
943
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,041
And when he took my portrait,
944
00:56:44,041 --> 00:56:47,708
I was convinced
that he was an artist,
945
00:56:47,708 --> 00:56:53,500
convinced that he could
manipulate people
extremely well.
946
00:56:53,500 --> 00:56:55,959
And I use the word manipulate.
947
00:56:55,959 --> 00:56:59,083
And so I said
"Okay, let's do a show."
948
00:56:59,083 --> 00:57:03,166
"Sam Wagstaff was a great
photography collector."
Holly Solomon said,
949
00:57:03,166 --> 00:57:05,792
"I wouldn't have touched
Robert without Sam.
950
00:57:05,792 --> 00:57:08,708
"And there were others like me
who felt the same way."
951
00:57:13,417 --> 00:57:16,000
He had two shows in one day.
952
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,208
One was the S&M pictures,
953
00:57:18,208 --> 00:57:22,834
and then one where
the pictures, for, you know,
the uptown trade.
954
00:57:22,834 --> 00:57:26,500
And then there was a dinner
that Sam gave, a black-tie
dinner at One Fifth Avenue.
955
00:57:26,500 --> 00:57:29,708
It was very carefully
thought out. It was like
an ad campaign,
956
00:57:29,708 --> 00:57:31,166
and it worked.
957
00:57:31,166 --> 00:57:33,083
Sometimes, I think it's better
958
00:57:33,083 --> 00:57:37,834
for the public to be able
to separate things
959
00:57:37,834 --> 00:57:42,208
because when you mix them
all up, the sex thing
overpowers it,
960
00:57:42,208 --> 00:57:46,792
and what happens is they just
pick the sex pictures out
and that becomes the show.
961
00:57:46,792 --> 00:57:48,792
What will you say
to those people
962
00:57:48,792 --> 00:57:53,375
who accuse you
of having a dirty mind?
963
00:57:53,375 --> 00:57:56,041
Well, I don't know what--
I don't know what that
means exactly.
964
00:57:56,041 --> 00:58:00,792
I mean, I think everybody is,
in one way or another,
involved in sexuality.
965
00:58:00,792 --> 00:58:03,875
So, if you believe
that sex is dirty,
966
00:58:03,875 --> 00:58:07,708
everybody has
a dirty mind, I suppose.
967
00:58:07,708 --> 00:58:11,250
But I never consider
sex being dirty.
968
00:58:11,250 --> 00:58:14,834
The image that
particularly riveted me,
969
00:58:14,834 --> 00:58:18,291
was Mark Stevens
(Mr. 10 1/2),
970
00:58:18,291 --> 00:58:21,458
with his penis and balls
laid out on the pedestal
971
00:58:21,458 --> 00:58:27,875
as if they were a work of art,
which, in his case, they were.
972
00:58:27,875 --> 00:58:29,083
So...
973
00:58:29,083 --> 00:58:30,917
Artistic photography
is controlled
974
00:58:30,917 --> 00:58:35,708
by very civilized people
in New York City.
975
00:58:35,708 --> 00:58:42,500
And in essence, he was
glamorizing the penis,
976
00:58:42,500 --> 00:58:47,959
which is a very
uncivilized thing to do.
977
00:58:47,959 --> 00:58:51,583
We sold one, only.
978
00:58:51,583 --> 00:58:54,792
So, I bought
the whole show from Robert
979
00:58:54,792 --> 00:58:57,875
figuring "Okay,
stuck is stuck."
980
00:58:57,875 --> 00:59:00,041
981
00:59:08,083 --> 00:59:10,375
He said,
"I want to go uptown,"
982
00:59:10,375 --> 00:59:13,250
and he brought me a present.
983
00:59:13,250 --> 00:59:20,125
The present was
a self-portrait with
the whip up his... tush.
984
00:59:20,125 --> 00:59:22,333
And my husband,
he was quite insulted,
985
00:59:22,333 --> 00:59:24,792
and he said, "I'm gonna
rip it up," and I said,
"No, you're not.
986
00:59:24,792 --> 00:59:28,458
Someday, I'm gonna
get handsomely paid
for that photograph."
987
00:59:28,458 --> 00:59:30,500
Is that making
a statement about myself?
988
00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:33,625
You know, it's one aspect
of everybody, I suppose,
989
00:59:33,625 --> 00:59:36,041
you know,
sort of the demon within.
990
00:59:36,041 --> 00:59:40,333
There's a sense of humor
in what I'm doing,
991
00:59:40,333 --> 00:59:42,041
which I hope
people pick up on,
992
00:59:42,041 --> 00:59:45,500
and sometimes they do,
and I'm always pleased
when people see that.
993
00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:48,166
I don't think he could've
produced the work he produced
994
00:59:48,166 --> 00:59:50,083
if he hadn't been
raised Catholic.
995
00:59:50,083 --> 00:59:54,333
I think the way I arrange
things is very Catholic,
996
00:59:54,333 --> 00:59:57,166
even though I was
never a religious person.
997
00:59:57,166 --> 01:00:01,333
I think it's rather important
as an influence on my life.
998
01:00:01,333 --> 01:00:06,166
The imagery was what was
important to him,
999
01:00:06,166 --> 01:00:08,166
not the dogma.
1000
01:00:08,166 --> 01:00:12,875
There's something
very ritualistic
about sadomasochism.
1001
01:00:12,875 --> 01:00:15,875
It's, kind of, the Black Mass
basically, right?
1002
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,708
His S&M work is based
on the Catholic martyrology.
1003
01:00:27,375 --> 01:00:30,291
As grade-school children,
we hear tales
1004
01:00:30,291 --> 01:00:36,083
of St. Agatha tied to a stake
and her tits torn off
with a red hot pincher.
1005
01:00:36,083 --> 01:00:39,166
If you're a little kid
and hear that, and twisted
in a certain way,
1006
01:00:39,166 --> 01:00:42,000
all of a sudden,
you're excited
and not horrified.
1008
01:00:45,041 --> 01:00:50,291
I'm really not, you know,
into sadomasochism, you know?
1009
01:00:50,291 --> 01:00:53,417
I don't encourage it
with other people either.
1010
01:00:53,417 --> 01:00:59,542
But I really felt as though
there was a struggle in Robert
1011
01:00:59,542 --> 01:01:04,708
between crucifixes
and devil images.
1012
01:01:04,708 --> 01:01:10,291
Good, evil, there is
a great conflict there.
1013
01:01:10,291 --> 01:01:13,250
He liked the fact
that I had been in
the seminary for many years
1014
01:01:13,250 --> 01:01:17,417
and was an ordained exorcist
in the Catholic Church.
1015
01:01:17,417 --> 01:01:22,583
And because I was trained
to be a priest, he was very
confessional to me.
1016
01:01:22,583 --> 01:01:25,208
"Dear Jack, it's midnight.
1017
01:01:25,208 --> 01:01:29,458
"MDA ingested, only the first
signs now visible.
1018
01:01:29,458 --> 01:01:33,417
"I've been out nearly
every night. Tonight is
no different.
1019
01:01:33,417 --> 01:01:36,250
"The Mine Shaft is beckoning.
1020
01:01:36,250 --> 01:01:40,458
"Come, go, come, go,
come with me.
1021
01:01:40,458 --> 01:01:42,917
"Oh, I almost
forgot to tell you,
1022
01:01:42,917 --> 01:01:46,708
"I let some creep
stick his hand up my ass.
1023
01:01:46,708 --> 01:01:49,333
"I've been fisted, even came.
1024
01:01:49,333 --> 01:01:52,166
"But I think I prefer
being the giver.
1025
01:01:52,166 --> 01:01:58,250
"In fact, I can't help but
give preferential treatment
to the feeding process.
1026
01:01:58,250 --> 01:02:02,458
"I want to see
the devil in us all.
1027
01:02:02,458 --> 01:02:04,708
"That's my real turn-on.
1028
01:02:04,708 --> 01:02:07,083
Love, Robert."
1029
01:02:08,583 --> 01:02:12,458
I have to say that
because nobody will say it.
1030
01:02:14,625 --> 01:02:18,250
I have to say it
and it's not to put him down,
1031
01:02:18,250 --> 01:02:20,500
but it's simply to reveal.
1032
01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:23,291
Robert--
1033
01:02:24,375 --> 01:02:26,959
Satan to him was not
this evil monster.
1034
01:02:26,959 --> 01:02:30,792
Satan was, like,
a convivial playmate,
1035
01:02:30,792 --> 01:02:33,708
having a jolly good time
seducing the maidens.
1036
01:02:33,708 --> 01:02:36,417
To me, it was
a bridge too far.
1037
01:02:36,417 --> 01:02:40,125
Go away.
1038
01:02:40,125 --> 01:02:43,250
Can we close the doors?
I'm getting awfully
cold in here.
1039
01:02:43,250 --> 01:02:45,083
Yeah.
There's a draft-- Marc?
1040
01:02:45,083 --> 01:02:49,125
San Francisco, 1978.
1041
01:02:49,125 --> 01:02:51,834
Robert was having a show,
it was a sex show.
1042
01:02:51,834 --> 01:02:57,250
It was unusual. I mean,
you didn't see sex as art
in galleries.
1043
01:02:57,250 --> 01:02:58,959
And then someone said,
"Well, you know,
1044
01:02:58,959 --> 01:03:00,875
"he did the album cover
for 'Horses.'"
1045
01:03:00,875 --> 01:03:04,250
And it was the only
black and white album cover.
1046
01:03:04,250 --> 01:03:06,291
And to see
an androgynous-looking woman
1047
01:03:06,291 --> 01:03:07,917
with a jacket
over her shoulder,
1048
01:03:07,917 --> 01:03:10,083
I just love, love,
love that photograph.
1049
01:03:10,083 --> 01:03:12,500
Robert was holding court
and he said,
1050
01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:15,166
"Well, let's have
dinner the following night,"
1051
01:03:15,166 --> 01:03:18,583
and that's how I met him.
1052
01:03:18,583 --> 01:03:21,834
And then I guess
you wanna know what happened
the following night, right?
1053
01:03:23,542 --> 01:03:25,208
He reminded me of the satyr.
1054
01:03:25,208 --> 01:03:27,708
He really looked like
a mythological creature,
1055
01:03:27,708 --> 01:03:29,750
like half goat, half man.
1056
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:32,208
To be in Robert's world,
1057
01:03:32,208 --> 01:03:38,708
you either had to be rich,
famous, or sex.
1058
01:03:38,708 --> 01:03:41,458
I wasn't rich,
I wasn't famous,
1059
01:03:41,458 --> 01:03:43,041
so, it left that.
1060
01:03:44,375 --> 01:03:46,375
As he certainly
wasn't monogamous,
1061
01:03:46,375 --> 01:03:49,500
he could have multiple
relationships on a weekend.
1062
01:03:49,500 --> 01:03:51,917
But with me, there was no S&M.
1063
01:03:51,917 --> 01:03:53,917
It was about being close
1064
01:03:53,917 --> 01:03:55,875
and spooning and, you know,
1065
01:03:55,875 --> 01:03:59,458
just the normal, the normal
kind of intimate stuff
1066
01:03:59,458 --> 01:04:01,959
that he didn't have
from picking up strangers.
1067
01:04:01,959 --> 01:04:04,625
He said,
"I want to do a nude."
1068
01:04:04,625 --> 01:04:07,417
So I said, "Why don't
we do something, like,
you know, this--"
1069
01:04:07,417 --> 01:04:09,542
those pictures of the hunt,
you know,
1070
01:04:09,542 --> 01:04:12,083
where you have,
like, the harvest
with the dead rabbit
1071
01:04:12,083 --> 01:04:13,917
and the fruit and everything
all and about.
1072
01:04:13,917 --> 01:04:15,917
So, I thought it was gonna be
more like that,
1073
01:04:15,917 --> 01:04:19,667
and then it turned up
with-- just this dead rabbit.
1074
01:04:19,667 --> 01:04:24,333
And I said, "What am I gonna
do with this? Like a mink
stole or something."
1075
01:04:24,333 --> 01:04:26,291
I'm surprised you even
know that picture,
1076
01:04:26,291 --> 01:04:31,542
because you'll never see
a picture of me in any book
by Mapplethorpe.
1077
01:04:31,542 --> 01:04:33,333
You really won't.
1078
01:04:33,333 --> 01:04:36,125
The fact that I started
getting a reputation
1079
01:04:36,125 --> 01:04:41,542
aside from just being
"Robert's cute with,"
from San Francisco,
1080
01:04:41,542 --> 01:04:44,500
how dare I become
a photographer that was
well known?
1081
01:04:44,500 --> 01:04:46,917
This infuriated him.
1082
01:04:46,917 --> 01:04:48,500
He couldn't deal with that.
1083
01:04:48,500 --> 01:04:51,625
"I've had a houseguest
here for much too long,
1084
01:04:51,625 --> 01:04:54,625
"a very cute boy
that I met in San Francisco.
1085
01:04:54,625 --> 01:04:58,583
"He's sweet, intelligent,
has a nice cock,
1086
01:04:58,583 --> 01:05:00,500
"but that ain't enough.
1087
01:05:00,500 --> 01:05:04,917
I wish he'd find an apartment
as he's cramping my style."
1088
01:05:04,917 --> 01:05:06,875
That was probably me.
1089
01:05:06,875 --> 01:05:08,792
I mean-- but I don't--
never heard that.
1090
01:05:08,792 --> 01:05:11,917
I mean, I don't know who else
he met in San Francisco.
1091
01:05:11,917 --> 01:05:15,750
That was-- that's the first
time I'm hearing that.
1092
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:17,750
Hmm.
1093
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:22,500
Well, it finally isn't
enough, is it? I mean,
what he wanted.
1094
01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:24,333
It's never enough.
1095
01:05:24,333 --> 01:05:27,875
Everything was a means
to an end to his career.
1096
01:05:27,875 --> 01:05:29,500
Everything.
1097
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,000
Oh, my God. You guys
are old school. I love that.
1098
01:05:41,291 --> 01:05:42,959
The Bond Street loft
never changed.
1099
01:05:42,959 --> 01:05:45,208
In the front, it was
sort of no man's land,
1100
01:05:45,208 --> 01:05:47,500
and that was where
he used to photograph a lot.
1101
01:05:47,500 --> 01:05:50,583
Then you move back and it's
this little sitting area
1102
01:05:50,583 --> 01:05:52,917
which-- where he would
always hold court,
1103
01:05:52,917 --> 01:05:54,792
but across from that
was the bedroom.
1104
01:05:54,792 --> 01:05:56,583
Painted black.
Black.
1105
01:05:56,583 --> 01:05:57,875
Hot gloss.
1106
01:05:57,875 --> 01:06:00,667
With the handcuff holds
above the bed.
1107
01:06:00,667 --> 01:06:02,875
I never went in there.
Oh, I did.
1109
01:06:04,583 --> 01:06:07,583
First thing he said to me is,
"All you have to know is
where the darkroom is."
1110
01:06:07,583 --> 01:06:10,834
You know? Okay, dude,
whatever, you know.
1111
01:06:10,834 --> 01:06:13,125
Do your thing, I'll do mine.
1112
01:06:13,125 --> 01:06:16,041
And I remember the first image
I printed,
1113
01:06:16,041 --> 01:06:19,542
which was just a nasty,
dirty picture.
1114
01:06:19,542 --> 01:06:23,417
It's a guy laying on his back,
pulling on his nipples.
1115
01:06:23,417 --> 01:06:26,375
It's not a well-known picture,
but it's a classic.
1117
01:06:28,250 --> 01:06:29,792
And that was where
we went to work every day.
1118
01:06:29,792 --> 01:06:31,917
That's where we went.
You know,
"Off to work, here we go."
1119
01:06:31,917 --> 01:06:35,208
Little WASPy blondes
going to the den iniquity.
1120
01:06:35,208 --> 01:06:37,208
Going to
the fist-fucking file.
1121
01:06:37,208 --> 01:06:40,750
Wasn't it funny how soon
we became anesthetized
1122
01:06:40,750 --> 01:06:42,750
to all the sex pictures?
To the word penis?
1123
01:06:42,750 --> 01:06:45,291
Yeah, you really...
'Cause it was just daily.
1124
01:06:46,500 --> 01:06:48,667
There would always
be film in the morning
1125
01:06:48,667 --> 01:06:50,083
from the night before,
1126
01:06:50,083 --> 01:06:52,834
so the first thing I'd do
is process film.
1127
01:06:52,834 --> 01:06:55,208
He'd come in in his robe,
1128
01:06:55,208 --> 01:06:56,875
"How are the films, Tom?"
1129
01:06:56,875 --> 01:07:01,250
When he saw the image
for the very first time,
1130
01:07:01,250 --> 01:07:03,834
he'd tease me,
"What do you think
of that cock, Tom?"
1131
01:07:03,834 --> 01:07:06,458
I'm like,
"Get the fuck out of here."
You know?
1132
01:07:06,458 --> 01:07:09,625
I was just out of school,
looking for work,
1133
01:07:09,625 --> 01:07:15,125
and Robert was, like,
"I don't know how
I really feel about this,
1134
01:07:15,125 --> 01:07:18,375
"but I am looking
for an assistant."
1135
01:07:18,375 --> 01:07:20,834
And I started the next day.
1136
01:07:20,834 --> 01:07:24,208
Because he didn't have
a real photo background,
1137
01:07:24,208 --> 01:07:27,417
he was always insecure
about "Technically did
I get the picture?"
1138
01:07:27,417 --> 01:07:29,208
You know, "Did it come out?
Did it come out?"
1139
01:07:29,208 --> 01:07:32,542
If it had light on it,
and he could get an exposure,
he was happy,
1140
01:07:32,542 --> 01:07:36,834
'cause, you know,
they were all fucked up
in the middle of the night.
1141
01:07:36,834 --> 01:07:40,417
I'm not a technician.
I never studied photography.
1142
01:07:40,417 --> 01:07:42,542
I don't particularly
care to know it.
1143
01:07:42,542 --> 01:07:44,458
I know what a fine print is.
1144
01:07:44,458 --> 01:07:49,125
I would probably have less
than half the number
of photographs
1145
01:07:49,125 --> 01:07:52,250
if I did my own
developing and printing.
1146
01:07:52,250 --> 01:07:55,041
But he always had coke.
I was the only guy
he gave coke to
1147
01:07:55,041 --> 01:07:57,041
'cause he wanted
me to keep going.
1149
01:07:58,375 --> 01:08:00,917
He wasn't generous,
but, you know,
1150
01:08:00,917 --> 01:08:04,458
"If I gave Tom a little coke,
he'll print faster," you know.
1151
01:08:04,458 --> 01:08:07,792
"Here, Tom.
Go in the darkroom,"
he'd give me a bump.
1152
01:08:09,250 --> 01:08:11,750
You know,
my father said to me,
1153
01:08:11,750 --> 01:08:14,333
"How can Robert call himself
a photographer
1154
01:08:14,333 --> 01:08:17,083
if he doesn't even know how
to process a roll of film?"
1155
01:08:17,083 --> 01:08:20,208
But Robert had a vision,
1156
01:08:20,208 --> 01:08:23,291
he always had a certain
way of seeing things,
1157
01:08:23,291 --> 01:08:29,667
so how you got there didn't
really concern him so much.
1158
01:08:29,667 --> 01:08:33,041
He wanted everything
to just be flawless.
1159
01:08:33,041 --> 01:08:37,375
You know, "Let's make this
guy's arm meet this corner,"
1160
01:08:37,375 --> 01:08:39,625
and, you know,
"Let's straighten it
out a little bit."
1161
01:08:39,625 --> 01:08:42,834
But it's a guy pissing
in another guy's mouth.
What's the fucking difference?
1162
01:08:44,625 --> 01:08:50,542
He wanted things as, you know,
unrealistically perfect
1163
01:08:50,542 --> 01:08:54,708
and smooth and take all
the flaws out of the skin.
1164
01:08:54,708 --> 01:08:57,667
Some days we'd sit
and just retouch for a day
1165
01:08:57,667 --> 01:09:00,375
until all the blemishes
were gone.
1166
01:09:06,083 --> 01:09:08,708
I talked to Patti
about doing a book
1167
01:09:08,708 --> 01:09:13,083
and having her
transform herself
1168
01:09:13,083 --> 01:09:16,041
into all these different
characters that would have
been Patti.
1169
01:09:16,041 --> 01:09:17,792
I mean, she would be
this character one day
1170
01:09:17,792 --> 01:09:19,208
and that character another.
1171
01:09:19,208 --> 01:09:21,583
And I think, you know,
she had a certain range
1172
01:09:21,583 --> 01:09:24,792
that could've probably
carried a whole book,
1173
01:09:24,792 --> 01:09:28,000
but I never
did a book with her.
1174
01:09:34,250 --> 01:09:39,917
When I met Lisa, I realized
that she, in fact, had this
range within her,
1175
01:09:39,917 --> 01:09:44,083
a very different range, but it
was still worthy of a book.
1176
01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:47,959
I thought she was unique.
1177
01:09:47,959 --> 01:09:51,208
She had this form that I had
never seen before.
1178
01:09:51,208 --> 01:09:53,959
It was like
a complete new animal.
1179
01:09:55,750 --> 01:09:58,000
Martineau:
She was particularly
important to Mapplethorpe
1180
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,208
because he was
trying to balance out
his sex pictures
1181
01:10:00,208 --> 01:10:02,667
with pictures of women.
Mm-hmm.
1182
01:10:02,667 --> 01:10:04,083
It's so interesting
to think about
1183
01:10:04,083 --> 01:10:08,583
how the female body building
idea then was really radical
1184
01:10:08,583 --> 01:10:10,083
and, kind of, challenging.
1185
01:10:10,083 --> 01:10:14,583
That kind of physique to us
doesn't seem so shocking.
Right.
1186
01:10:14,583 --> 01:10:18,625
She's such
a prominent subject.
1187
01:10:18,625 --> 01:10:23,125
Very '80s,
the make-up, the hair.
Oh, yeah.
1188
01:10:23,125 --> 01:10:24,875
The ruffle blouse.
Mm-hmm.
1189
01:10:24,875 --> 01:10:26,500
The shoulder pads.
1190
01:10:26,500 --> 01:10:28,583
Lyon:
It was prototype
for a new species.
1191
01:10:28,583 --> 01:10:31,917
Sort of an animal perfection,
and I felt in him
1192
01:10:31,917 --> 01:10:34,250
a kind of male version
of the same thing.
1193
01:10:34,250 --> 01:10:36,166
My ambition that
I discussed with him
1194
01:10:36,166 --> 01:10:38,625
was to explore
the range of possibilities
1195
01:10:38,625 --> 01:10:40,166
of ways of viewing a woman.
1196
01:10:40,166 --> 01:10:42,500
Historical ways,
contemporary ways,
1197
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:45,083
cliché ways, unheard of ways,
1198
01:10:45,083 --> 01:10:47,708
tribal ways,
the high fashion type,
1199
01:10:47,708 --> 01:10:50,333
the sex goddess type,
the lingerie type,
1200
01:10:50,333 --> 01:10:52,625
the bondage type,
the virgin type,
1201
01:10:52,625 --> 01:10:55,041
the bridal type,
the statue type.
1203
01:10:57,500 --> 01:11:01,583
What had seemed
very daring
1204
01:11:01,583 --> 01:11:05,333
when he did it with men...
1205
01:11:07,667 --> 01:11:12,333
...looked very retrograde
when he did it with a woman
1206
01:11:12,333 --> 01:11:17,625
who was dressing up in
different hats and garments.
1207
01:11:20,291 --> 01:11:24,041
And so I wrote about that
and he was furious.
1208
01:11:24,041 --> 01:11:26,625
I think he called me
and yelled at me.
1209
01:11:26,625 --> 01:11:32,166
I feel, like, it may
have been a bad idea
to write that review.
1210
01:11:34,250 --> 01:11:36,166
I mean, that is
sculpture to me,
1211
01:11:36,166 --> 01:11:39,208
you know, and that's, sort of,
one of the points that
I'm making in photography
1212
01:11:39,208 --> 01:11:44,041
is being a sculptor
without actually having
to spend all the time,
1213
01:11:44,041 --> 01:11:46,500
sort of, modeling
with your hands.
1214
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:48,875
You know, that's much
too archaic for me.
1215
01:11:48,875 --> 01:11:51,625
It's like inventing sculpture
myself with a camera.
1216
01:11:51,625 --> 01:11:53,375
It really is like bronze.
1217
01:11:53,375 --> 01:11:58,375
I'd often say that
photographing black men
is like photographing bronzes.
1219
01:12:01,125 --> 01:12:05,542
I was the last white
intimate person in his life.
1220
01:12:05,542 --> 01:12:09,208
After that, he was only
sleeping with black people,
1221
01:12:09,208 --> 01:12:11,667
photographing black people.
1222
01:12:11,667 --> 01:12:14,750
He became obsessed
with black people.
1223
01:12:21,083 --> 01:12:25,875
All I know is that it's
physically attractive to me.
1224
01:12:25,875 --> 01:12:28,708
Visually, it's also attractive
1225
01:12:28,708 --> 01:12:35,250
and so, you know, it became
an obsession with me taking
these pictures of blacks.
1226
01:12:35,250 --> 01:12:39,166
People had accused him
of exploiting these people.
1227
01:12:39,166 --> 01:12:43,625
And, um... he told me
1228
01:12:43,625 --> 01:12:46,166
he photographed
what he loved to do
1229
01:12:46,166 --> 01:12:48,333
and the people
he loved to be with,
1230
01:12:48,333 --> 01:12:51,959
and to me,
that's not exploitation.
1231
01:12:51,959 --> 01:12:54,750
That's just living your life
1232
01:12:54,750 --> 01:12:57,417
and using a camera
to document it.
1233
01:12:57,417 --> 01:13:01,083
For the most part, when whites
have photographed blacks,
1234
01:13:01,083 --> 01:13:06,458
they have, sort of,
shown them from a certain
social point of view.
1235
01:13:06,458 --> 01:13:10,125
I'm photographing them as form
in the same way that
I'm reading the flowers
1236
01:13:10,125 --> 01:13:12,375
or anything else
that I photograph.
1237
01:13:12,375 --> 01:13:17,458
I'm not attempting to make
a social statement
about their plight.
1238
01:13:17,458 --> 01:13:21,792
Robert was looking for God
in a black man,
1239
01:13:21,792 --> 01:13:27,250
and he found him
in Milton Moore
1240
01:13:27,250 --> 01:13:30,041
and fell in love with him.
1241
01:13:30,041 --> 01:13:35,792
Now, I think he fell in love,
1242
01:13:35,792 --> 01:13:40,125
and this sounds ridiculous,
with Milton's penis.
1243
01:13:42,417 --> 01:13:48,333
Robert was looking
for the absolute perfect
black penis.
1244
01:13:48,333 --> 01:13:49,583
And he had it,
1245
01:13:49,583 --> 01:13:52,875
I mean, the exact
measurements down.
1246
01:13:52,875 --> 01:13:56,792
I mean, it had to be
just so and he'd discuss it
with others,
1247
01:13:56,792 --> 01:14:00,041
and, you know,
the ratio to this and that.
1248
01:14:00,041 --> 01:14:04,000
The thing the world is
most afraid of is penis.
1249
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:06,375
And Robert dared show penis,
1250
01:14:06,375 --> 01:14:08,000
but he dared show black penis,
1251
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:12,959
and there's nothing more scary
because behind all of
sexual prejudice
1252
01:14:12,959 --> 01:14:16,000
is the sex envy,
this penis envy
1253
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,250
that drives people insane
1254
01:14:19,250 --> 01:14:22,583
either with lust or with fear.
1255
01:14:22,583 --> 01:14:24,708
Milton did say to him
1256
01:14:24,708 --> 01:14:27,083
as one condition
of taking the pictures
1257
01:14:27,083 --> 01:14:32,291
that he could not show
his head in the frame.
1259
01:14:44,625 --> 01:14:47,083
"Picture of Man
in Polyester Suit"
1260
01:14:47,083 --> 01:14:48,917
was really
one of his most famous.
1261
01:14:48,917 --> 01:14:55,542
Milton had picked up
that suit in Hong Kong
and was very proud of it,
1262
01:14:55,542 --> 01:14:58,875
and Robert purposely
lined up his thumb
1263
01:14:58,875 --> 01:15:02,708
so that it would show off
the cheap seams.
1264
01:15:05,458 --> 01:15:07,375
I'd never seen it, and then
we went to the framers
1265
01:15:07,375 --> 01:15:11,250
and I saw it laying on
the floor as it was gonna
be put into the frame,
1266
01:15:11,250 --> 01:15:13,250
and I said,
1267
01:15:13,250 --> 01:15:18,041
"Robert, this is a show that
the whole world will see."
1268
01:15:18,041 --> 01:15:22,875
He said to me,
"Will anyone write about it?"
1269
01:15:22,875 --> 01:15:26,750
That was his comment.
And they did.
1270
01:15:26,750 --> 01:15:29,333
"Main picture here is
a big black dude
1271
01:15:29,333 --> 01:15:32,458
"seen in an expensive vested
gabardine suit
1272
01:15:32,458 --> 01:15:35,834
"with his fly open and his
elephant cock sticking out.
1273
01:15:35,834 --> 01:15:38,333
"This picture's ugly,
degrading, obscene,
1274
01:15:38,333 --> 01:15:40,708
"typical of the artist's work,
1275
01:15:40,708 --> 01:15:44,417
"which appeal
largely to drooling
lascivious collectors
1276
01:15:44,417 --> 01:15:49,125
"who buy them and return
to their furnished rooms
to jerk off."
1278
01:15:51,708 --> 01:15:57,875
We actually did
sell that picture
during the exhibition
1279
01:15:57,875 --> 01:16:03,625
to a collector
in New York for $2,500,
and it was a reach.
1280
01:16:03,625 --> 01:16:07,041
It was a big price
for a photograph,
1281
01:16:07,041 --> 01:16:10,792
and especially
by a living photographer.
1282
01:16:10,792 --> 01:16:13,417
There were 20
works in the show
1283
01:16:13,417 --> 01:16:17,166
and we placed all of them
with very strong collectors,
1284
01:16:17,166 --> 01:16:19,000
which was very
important for Robert.
1285
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:22,250
This was the first show that
that had ever happened to him.
1286
01:16:22,250 --> 01:16:25,625
And it was a kind
of lightning rod
1287
01:16:25,625 --> 01:16:28,708
and it was notorious.
1288
01:16:28,708 --> 01:16:32,917
Auctioneer:
Lot 144, Robert Mapplethorpe's
"Man in Polyester Suit."
1289
01:16:32,917 --> 01:16:36,000
And I'm gonna start
the bidding here at $180,000.
1290
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:42,667
It's possibly one of the top
10 most recognizable images
in photographic history.
1291
01:16:42,667 --> 01:16:44,333
210, 220.
1292
01:16:44,333 --> 01:16:46,834
It's an iconic image.
1293
01:16:46,834 --> 01:16:49,834
You know, it's, like,
Andy's "Marilyn."
1294
01:16:49,834 --> 01:16:52,583
360, 380...
1295
01:16:52,583 --> 01:16:54,834
$390,000.
1296
01:17:02,834 --> 01:17:05,375
None of us realized
that photography
1297
01:17:05,375 --> 01:17:09,834
at its-- the beginning
was just considered
1298
01:17:09,834 --> 01:17:12,708
commercial reproduction,
commercial reproduction.
1299
01:17:12,708 --> 01:17:16,041
Many collectors would
never dream of collecting.
1300
01:17:16,041 --> 01:17:21,291
And I think Mapplethorpe is
one of the artists responsible
1301
01:17:21,291 --> 01:17:27,041
for photography being
considered on an equal basis
with sculpture and painting.
1302
01:17:27,041 --> 01:17:32,667
I never for a second
doubted that photography
was a very real art.
1303
01:17:32,667 --> 01:17:37,166
And there's just something
about his photography that
immediately attracted me.
1304
01:17:37,166 --> 01:17:42,875
I was shocked
by his absolute brutal
honesty about everything,
1305
01:17:42,875 --> 01:17:46,917
from sexual organs
to relationships
between people.
1306
01:17:46,917 --> 01:17:51,208
You know, the people that have
influenced me the most
1307
01:17:51,208 --> 01:17:53,583
are the relationships
I've had, you know,
1308
01:17:53,583 --> 01:17:56,500
the lovers
I've had in my life.
1309
01:17:56,500 --> 01:17:59,917
And of course
I've photographed
every one of them.
1310
01:17:59,917 --> 01:18:04,750
The only time Robert ever
cried was talking about
how much he loved Milton.
1311
01:18:04,750 --> 01:18:08,125
Not Patti, Milton. Milton.
1313
01:18:24,875 --> 01:18:30,208
He had just did that
show called "Black Males"
at Robert Miller Gallery.
1314
01:18:30,208 --> 01:18:33,458
So I went to go see that show.
1315
01:18:33,458 --> 01:18:36,458
I said, "That's gonna
be my boyfriend."
1316
01:18:37,625 --> 01:18:40,959
We lived together for
the better part of a decade.
1317
01:18:40,959 --> 01:18:45,583
We rarely fought, you know,
1318
01:18:45,583 --> 01:18:49,291
because he was too
self-absorbed to really care.
1319
01:18:49,291 --> 01:18:51,125
It was so easy to be
around him
1320
01:18:51,125 --> 01:18:56,125
because he was so busy
being Robert Mapplethorpe.
1321
01:18:57,959 --> 01:19:04,125
When we started seeing
each other, he started
taking pictures, right?
1322
01:19:04,125 --> 01:19:09,125
And I was, kind of, shy,
so I didn't wanna take
nude pictures.
1323
01:19:09,125 --> 01:19:12,792
And Robert goes,
"Just don't look
at your dick."
1324
01:19:12,792 --> 01:19:15,667
He goes,
"It's just a picture."
1325
01:19:18,333 --> 01:19:24,333
There is no picture
of Ken Moody's dick.
1326
01:19:24,333 --> 01:19:27,583
There just isn't,
and I'm sorry.
1328
01:19:28,875 --> 01:19:31,917
As soon as I stood
in front of the seamless,
1329
01:19:31,917 --> 01:19:34,333
it was magic.
1330
01:19:34,333 --> 01:19:36,667
It was absolute magic.
1331
01:19:38,834 --> 01:19:44,333
There's no way
you can describe it
other than making love.
1332
01:19:45,708 --> 01:19:52,542
And as soon as we stepped away
from that backdrop, nothing.
1333
01:19:52,542 --> 01:19:55,166
Absolutely nothing.
1334
01:19:55,166 --> 01:19:58,667
We had nothing in common,
We had nothing to say
to each other.
1335
01:19:58,667 --> 01:20:05,375
There was a ghetto
element to men that he had
the strongest attraction to.
1336
01:20:05,375 --> 01:20:06,834
I had none of that.
1337
01:20:06,834 --> 01:20:11,375
He was quoted in
an article as saying
I was too "white" for him.
1338
01:20:13,708 --> 01:20:15,125
Too white.
1340
01:20:18,125 --> 01:20:19,792
I brought them together.
1341
01:20:19,792 --> 01:20:22,500
It was interesting
'cause they had never met
and never had a conversation
1342
01:20:22,500 --> 01:20:26,208
with somebody else
that they had lost all
their hair as a child.
1343
01:20:26,208 --> 01:20:29,375
And it was
interesting to watch them
1344
01:20:29,375 --> 01:20:31,708
react and relate
to each other.
1345
01:20:31,708 --> 01:20:34,208
The more time goes by,
1346
01:20:34,208 --> 01:20:37,125
the bigger that
photograph gets.
1347
01:20:37,125 --> 01:20:40,750
When it was in Times Square
on the NASDAQ billboard,
1348
01:20:40,750 --> 01:20:44,583
that was, like,
"Wow. Where's my mother?"
1349
01:20:47,750 --> 01:20:52,792
I've read several things
on the shot of Ken and I.
1350
01:20:52,792 --> 01:20:57,959
It's like
they tried to read all
of this philosophy into it.
1351
01:20:57,959 --> 01:21:03,250
Black Ken, eyes closed,
meaning the subconscious.
1352
01:21:03,250 --> 01:21:08,583
White Robert, eyes open,
afraid of the unconscious.
1353
01:21:08,583 --> 01:21:10,500
I'm, like, "What?"
1354
01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:14,000
The black man
was in the background
1355
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:17,583
because the black man's neck
wasn't long enough
1356
01:21:17,583 --> 01:21:21,792
to reach over
the white man's shoulder.
1357
01:21:21,792 --> 01:21:25,000
We tried it and my neck
wasn't long enough.
1358
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,792
I think that's why
he did every position.
1359
01:21:27,792 --> 01:21:30,250
Exactly.
To find out
what worked best.
1360
01:21:30,250 --> 01:21:34,333
There was no
philosophical anything to--
1361
01:21:34,333 --> 01:21:36,667
Robert was so not like that.
1362
01:21:36,667 --> 01:21:38,417
No. Totally not.
1363
01:21:38,417 --> 01:21:40,125
Take your shirt off.
1364
01:21:40,125 --> 01:21:42,959
It sounds silly.
I guess, you know,
using the word, magic.
1365
01:21:42,959 --> 01:21:44,834
And fold your arms.
1366
01:21:44,834 --> 01:21:47,291
Stay right there.
Lift your head up
a little bit.
1367
01:21:47,291 --> 01:21:51,166
I was able to pick up
the magic of the moment
and work with it,
1368
01:21:51,166 --> 01:21:54,166
you know, that's my rush
in doing photography.
1369
01:21:54,166 --> 01:21:56,667
Ken, hold that! Hold that!
1370
01:21:56,667 --> 01:21:58,667
Tilt a little right
and turn a little right.
1371
01:21:58,667 --> 01:22:02,708
Turn your head to the right,
now bring your eyes
back to me.
1372
01:22:04,333 --> 01:22:06,083
Look back here.
1373
01:22:06,083 --> 01:22:07,708
Lean right, turn right.
1374
01:22:07,708 --> 01:22:10,458
Put your head down,
now bring your eyes up.
1375
01:22:10,458 --> 01:22:13,667
Click, click, click,
click, click, eyes to me.
1376
01:22:13,667 --> 01:22:15,625
Click. Chin up.
1377
01:22:15,625 --> 01:22:18,375
Turn this way.
1378
01:22:18,375 --> 01:22:21,500
Turn your head this way.
Yeah, more.
1379
01:22:21,500 --> 01:22:23,208
More. More.
1380
01:22:23,208 --> 01:22:26,041
And instead
of looking to the side,
look straight out.
1381
01:22:26,041 --> 01:22:28,500
Often I'm dealing
with fractions of inches.
1382
01:22:28,500 --> 01:22:31,000
Here, you can even--
Now turn.
1383
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:32,625
Just-- Yeah,
from the neck.
Stay there.
1384
01:22:32,625 --> 01:22:34,750
I'm looking for
that perfect position
1385
01:22:34,750 --> 01:22:38,625
where the head sort of,
somehow makes sense to me.
1386
01:22:38,625 --> 01:22:41,750
Actually, I should take it
with all these things
coming in at you.
1387
01:22:41,750 --> 01:22:43,834
A little-- Look this way
towards-- yeah.
1388
01:22:45,208 --> 01:22:47,333
That's rather good, actually.
1389
01:22:52,041 --> 01:22:55,458
I'm gonna start showing
a series of portraits.
1390
01:22:55,458 --> 01:22:59,542
I'll stop at any point,
but I don't want to comment
too much about the pictures
1391
01:22:59,542 --> 01:23:02,166
'cause I wanna get-- I want
my vision to come across,
1392
01:23:02,166 --> 01:23:04,333
the way I see things.
1393
01:23:04,333 --> 01:23:06,208
That's William Burroughs.
1394
01:23:06,208 --> 01:23:09,375
Philip Glass on the left,
Robert Wilson on the right.
1395
01:23:09,375 --> 01:23:12,875
And Donald Sutherland,
one of the best subjects
I've ever photographed.
1396
01:23:12,875 --> 01:23:17,375
Annie Leibovitz, one of
the most difficult subjects
I've ever photographed.
1398
01:23:18,917 --> 01:23:21,291
That's Debbie Harry.
1399
01:23:21,291 --> 01:23:23,375
I sat for him
a couple of times,
1400
01:23:23,375 --> 01:23:26,458
which was pretty scary
for me the first time.
1401
01:23:26,458 --> 01:23:28,959
Smiling wasn't
his thing, you know.
1402
01:23:28,959 --> 01:23:33,417
The way that he saw people was
like he was seeing into them
1403
01:23:33,417 --> 01:23:34,917
or something,
or through them.
1404
01:23:34,917 --> 01:23:38,583
I don't think
it's necessary to tell you
1405
01:23:38,583 --> 01:23:42,125
who is in each photograph
because if the pictures
are good,
1406
01:23:42,125 --> 01:23:45,417
then they'll
transcend who they
are and it doesn't matter.
1407
01:23:45,417 --> 01:23:48,250
He became known
for the elegance
of his portraits.
1408
01:23:48,250 --> 01:23:51,583
And any photographer who takes
pictures of celebrities
1409
01:23:51,583 --> 01:23:53,208
is making a smart
business move
1410
01:23:53,208 --> 01:23:56,750
because those people and their
friends have lots of money.
1411
01:23:56,750 --> 01:23:58,542
And they buy pictures.
Yeah.
1412
01:23:58,542 --> 01:24:01,583
Well, and his social life was
a part of his artistic life.
1413
01:24:01,583 --> 01:24:02,750
That's right.
You know,
1414
01:24:02,750 --> 01:24:04,417
it was all
very interconnected.
1415
01:24:13,875 --> 01:24:16,834
Ideally, you get
the subject to a point
1416
01:24:16,834 --> 01:24:18,625
where they direct themselves.
1417
01:24:18,625 --> 01:24:21,625
You know, they say, "Well,
this is really kind of what
I want to be photographed in."
1418
01:24:21,625 --> 01:24:24,708
I thought it was going to be
a catastrophe,
1419
01:24:24,708 --> 01:24:26,917
and I prepared for it.
1420
01:24:26,917 --> 01:24:29,583
So I did take a piece of mine.
1421
01:24:29,583 --> 01:24:31,792
It was a good
collaboration, right?
1422
01:24:31,792 --> 01:24:34,875
Because he's famous
not for his flower pictures.
1423
01:24:34,875 --> 01:24:40,834
He's famous
for his objectionable
sexual representation.
1424
01:24:40,834 --> 01:24:43,000
You know taking pictures
of sex is no different
1425
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:45,000
than photographing
a flower really.
1426
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:48,708
I mean, it's the same thing.
It's just submitting
to whatever's going on
1427
01:24:48,708 --> 01:24:53,083
and trying to get
the best possible view of it.
1428
01:24:53,083 --> 01:24:57,667
And nobody else can photograph
flowers the way I do.
1429
01:24:57,667 --> 01:24:59,917
It's just the way I see.
1430
01:24:59,917 --> 01:25:03,625
Even Robert said it,
that the pictures started
getting very, very, slick.
1431
01:25:03,625 --> 01:25:06,667
That was the word.
So slick, so perfect.
1432
01:25:08,417 --> 01:25:15,000
But perfection,
that's a Mapplethorpe
characteristic. Perfection.
1433
01:25:18,959 --> 01:25:24,000
Anybody who was
involved in that studio
will agree with me
1434
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:27,583
that you just got sucked
into Robert's world.
1435
01:25:27,583 --> 01:25:31,291
You wanted to.
It wasn't-- I mean,
you just did,
1436
01:25:31,291 --> 01:25:32,875
I mean, it was
an interesting world.
1437
01:25:32,875 --> 01:25:35,792
It was a lot of excitement,
it was a lot of fun,
1438
01:25:35,792 --> 01:25:37,708
but I wanted
to do something else.
1439
01:25:39,208 --> 01:25:42,542
Can't just be
Robert's assistant
for the rest of my life.
1440
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:50,667
So then the invitation
gets sent out.
1441
01:25:50,667 --> 01:25:54,166
Nice group of artists.
All alphabetical.
1442
01:25:54,166 --> 01:26:00,125
And lo and behold,
Edward Mapplethorpe comes
before Robert Mapplethorpe.
1443
01:26:00,125 --> 01:26:03,959
And he was... ruthless.
1444
01:26:03,959 --> 01:26:06,542
He was nasty.
1445
01:26:06,542 --> 01:26:09,917
And said,
1446
01:26:09,917 --> 01:26:12,208
"I'm not gonna have
any kid brother--
1447
01:26:12,208 --> 01:26:15,917
"I've worked really hard
to get where I've gotten,
1448
01:26:15,917 --> 01:26:20,417
"and if you think
you're gonna come
and ride on my coattails..."
1450
01:26:29,083 --> 01:26:32,625
And I was like,
"Fuck, man," I was like...
1451
01:26:35,250 --> 01:26:36,250
"Wow."
1452
01:26:36,250 --> 01:26:39,250
And Robert asked him
to change his name,
1453
01:26:39,250 --> 01:26:41,750
which he struggled with,
I think, for a while,
1454
01:26:41,750 --> 01:26:45,083
but then he did.
He changed it to Maxey.
1455
01:26:45,083 --> 01:26:48,792
Right. But...
1456
01:26:48,792 --> 01:26:52,250
It was all about Robert.
It was all about Robert.
1457
01:26:52,250 --> 01:26:53,917
You know,
they were brothers.
1458
01:26:53,917 --> 01:26:55,792
Can't imagine
what all that was like.
1459
01:26:56,875 --> 01:27:01,542
You know, it was
a futile attempt because...
1460
01:27:01,542 --> 01:27:04,959
"Oh, this is Edward Maxey.
He's Robert Mapplethorpe's
brother."
1461
01:27:04,959 --> 01:27:06,875
I was, like, "Well,
what good is this doing?
1462
01:27:06,875 --> 01:27:09,875
"This is ridiculous."
1463
01:27:09,875 --> 01:27:12,625
But yeah, it sucked.
1464
01:27:12,625 --> 01:27:16,291
That day sucked.
1465
01:27:16,291 --> 01:27:21,959
Just like the day that he got
angry at me for deciding that
I was gonna leave the studio.
1466
01:27:21,959 --> 01:27:23,792
This is somebody
that two years earlier
1467
01:27:23,792 --> 01:27:27,417
didn't know whether he wanted
me in the studio with him.
1468
01:27:27,417 --> 01:27:33,792
Two years later, I guess,
he learned to rely on me
quite a bit.
1469
01:27:33,792 --> 01:27:37,667
And was angry, very angry.
1470
1471
01:27:42,750 --> 01:27:46,166
The lifestyle of some
male homosexuals
1472
01:27:46,166 --> 01:27:48,917
has triggered an epidemic
of a rare form of cancer.
1473
01:27:48,917 --> 01:27:52,000
He would go to the bar
in the afternoon,
1474
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:56,166
pick up someone,
have sex with them,
1475
01:27:56,166 --> 01:27:59,583
then go back later that night,
1476
01:27:59,583 --> 01:28:01,959
maybe and then
pick up somebody else,
1477
01:28:01,959 --> 01:28:05,792
and then towards
the end of the night,
like, a nightcap.
1478
01:28:05,792 --> 01:28:07,959
Last weekend,
Mayor Koch predicted
1479
01:28:07,959 --> 01:28:10,333
that The Mine Shaft
would close.
1480
01:28:10,333 --> 01:28:12,083
They are selling death.
1481
01:28:12,083 --> 01:28:14,708
Places where death
can be distributed.
1482
01:28:14,708 --> 01:28:17,667
They're making love
in the street on top of cars
and everything.
1483
01:28:17,667 --> 01:28:20,375
This is men. Grown men.
I mean, that's not normal.
1484
01:28:20,375 --> 01:28:23,667
Most of these people,
they're not fit,
they're not human beings.
1485
01:28:23,667 --> 01:28:25,417
That have emotional problems.
1491
01:28:51,041 --> 01:28:53,375
'Cause I was sleeping
with him for all those years,
1492
01:28:53,375 --> 01:28:55,750
I thought that
I was gonna die.
1493
01:28:55,750 --> 01:28:59,250
I came back
from an appointment
to get my results.
1494
01:28:59,250 --> 01:29:01,542
He was laying in the bed
when I walked in,
1495
01:29:01,542 --> 01:29:04,500
and then he looked at me
and then he said,
1496
01:29:04,500 --> 01:29:06,083
"You got it, right?"
1497
01:29:06,083 --> 01:29:08,959
And I said, "No, no, no, no."
I said, "I'm negative."
1498
01:29:08,959 --> 01:29:11,250
And I remember, he got
really upset and he goes,
1499
01:29:11,250 --> 01:29:13,291
"Then why do I have it?
Why do I have it?"
1500
01:29:13,291 --> 01:29:15,083
And he started, like,
pounding the bed.
1501
01:29:21,333 --> 01:29:24,750
AIDS at the time
was pretty much
a death sentence, right?
1502
01:29:24,750 --> 01:29:27,750
And he, on the one
hand was upset,
1503
01:29:27,750 --> 01:29:32,166
but on the other hand,
he was fascinated
by the demand for his work.
1504
01:29:32,166 --> 01:29:34,708
Like, his market took off
1505
01:29:34,708 --> 01:29:37,750
when people heard
that he was about to die.
1506
01:29:37,750 --> 01:29:40,000
It really took off.
1507
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:41,834
We were very busy.
1508
01:29:41,834 --> 01:29:45,125
We didn't stop working,
and he didn't stop shooting
1509
01:29:45,125 --> 01:29:47,417
until he physically
couldn't get out of bed.
1510
01:29:47,417 --> 01:29:49,250
He's like,
"What am I shooting next?
1511
01:29:49,250 --> 01:29:52,083
"Get me some flowers.
Let's do that."
1512
01:29:52,083 --> 01:29:55,500
You know, and it--
the flowers got done,
the statues got done,
1513
01:29:55,500 --> 01:29:58,125
the commissioned
portraits got done.
1514
01:29:58,125 --> 01:30:00,250
One day I'll
photograph flowers,
1515
01:30:00,250 --> 01:30:02,083
the next day
I'll do some fashion work,
1516
01:30:02,083 --> 01:30:05,625
the next day I'll do some
pornography, and the next day,
I'll do a portrait.
1517
01:30:05,625 --> 01:30:07,792
You know, I don't really care.
1518
01:30:09,166 --> 01:30:11,959
I sort of thought I should
be keeping a journal.
1519
01:30:11,959 --> 01:30:13,625
"I did watch him shoot today.
1520
01:30:13,625 --> 01:30:18,125
"It's so amazing to see
how he musters the energy
to do the pictures.
1521
01:30:18,125 --> 01:30:20,417
"It absolutely
keeps him going.
1522
01:30:20,417 --> 01:30:23,583
"And the money. Funny money."
1523
01:30:23,583 --> 01:30:28,250
Natrele Plus. Long-lasting
Natrele protection.
1524
01:30:28,250 --> 01:30:30,959
He was never interested
in talking about his health.
1525
01:30:30,959 --> 01:30:34,333
All he wanted to talk about
was sales and who was
looking at his work,
1526
01:30:34,333 --> 01:30:36,583
and when are we gonna have
a million-dollar a month.
1527
01:30:36,583 --> 01:30:40,708
He was interested in making
as much money as possible.
1528
01:30:40,708 --> 01:30:44,417
And he resented the fact
that his contemporaries',
like Brice Marden,
1529
01:30:44,417 --> 01:30:47,667
works started selling
for several hundred
thousand dollars.
1530
01:30:47,667 --> 01:30:51,333
And Robert's works
were selling for $1,100.
1531
01:30:53,125 --> 01:30:58,291
Mapplethorpe, had a sort of
jealous or competitive
relationship with Warhol.
1532
01:30:59,917 --> 01:31:02,333
He would say to me weekly,
1533
01:31:02,333 --> 01:31:07,458
"If I die, will I have died
with as much money
as Andy Warhol had?"
1534
01:31:07,458 --> 01:31:10,792
And I'd say,
"No. Not nearly, not nearly."
1535
01:31:10,792 --> 01:31:16,000
I remember him saying to me
once, how frustrated he was
about being ill
1536
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:18,959
because he was getting
all this money now,
1537
01:31:18,959 --> 01:31:20,792
and he actually said,
1538
01:31:20,792 --> 01:31:22,500
"I won't be able to enjoy it."
1539
01:31:22,500 --> 01:31:27,166
He was not very interested
in leaving money to people.
1540
01:31:27,166 --> 01:31:30,959
So the foundation idea
really began to appeal to him
1541
01:31:30,959 --> 01:31:35,583
because his money,
his assets, his real estate,
his art collection
1542
01:31:35,583 --> 01:31:37,250
would support his foundation.
1543
01:31:37,250 --> 01:31:40,917
So, it would
automatically promote him.
1544
01:31:43,208 --> 01:31:45,625
Robert sent for me
for his birthday,
1545
01:31:45,625 --> 01:31:47,208
his 40th birthday party,
1546
01:31:47,208 --> 01:31:51,750
That's when I was like,
"Whoa. This is not good."
1547
01:31:53,875 --> 01:31:57,917
Robert Mapplethorpe's
way to interpret me
1548
01:31:57,917 --> 01:32:02,125
was totally different than
any other photographer.
1549
01:32:04,166 --> 01:32:07,250
He wanted my hair back,
so that was unusual to me.
1550
01:32:07,250 --> 01:32:10,417
Everybody has always wanted me
to do a hairdo.
1551
01:32:10,417 --> 01:32:14,792
He wanted a very,
very natural feel.
1552
01:32:14,792 --> 01:32:16,959
I look like an angel
on that picture.
1553
01:32:16,959 --> 01:32:18,750
So, how can I not be pleased?
1554
01:32:18,750 --> 01:32:25,875
He was the first photographer
to photograph me completely
in profile.
1555
01:32:25,875 --> 01:32:28,834
It's never--
He was the only one.
1556
01:32:30,458 --> 01:32:35,708
The profile was just so much
more soul-baring.
1557
01:32:35,708 --> 01:32:37,583
I got to sort of study him.
1558
01:32:37,583 --> 01:32:41,125
He didn't seem happy.
Everything seemed precious,
1559
01:32:41,125 --> 01:32:45,458
and I think there was no sense
of wanting to waste time
or be frivolous.
1560
01:32:45,458 --> 01:32:49,542
In German, you say--
there is this word, getrieben,
1561
01:32:49,542 --> 01:32:54,792
which means as if something
is chasing you constantly.
1562
01:32:57,291 --> 01:33:01,792
I used to go and visit him.
We both sense that
he was dying,
1563
01:33:01,792 --> 01:33:03,667
but we didn't talk about it.
1564
01:33:03,667 --> 01:33:06,125
And he had that very
sad expression,
1565
01:33:06,125 --> 01:33:08,250
because
he didn't want to leave.
1566
01:33:08,250 --> 01:33:10,417
He wanted to stay, you know?
1567
01:33:10,417 --> 01:33:12,834
And one day he said,
1568
01:33:12,834 --> 01:33:14,458
"I need to take
a photograph of you
1569
01:33:14,458 --> 01:33:17,834
"and you need this one
because this is going
to be the last one,"
1570
01:33:17,834 --> 01:33:20,500
is what he say.
I say, "Don't be silly."
1571
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:23,708
And it was.
1572
01:33:27,083 --> 01:33:28,750
It was just sort of
1573
01:33:28,750 --> 01:33:31,000
business as usual until
things progressed,
1574
01:33:31,000 --> 01:33:33,583
and he was having a harder
and harder time getting
out of his seat and...
1575
01:33:33,583 --> 01:33:35,500
And he had a horrible,
horrible cough,
1576
01:33:35,500 --> 01:33:38,041
which I guess was typical.
1577
01:33:38,041 --> 01:33:41,375
Six o'clock would roll around
and then he'd sort of be like,
1578
01:33:41,375 --> 01:33:43,625
"Can you come
keep me company?"
1579
01:33:43,625 --> 01:33:47,583
It was this little boy.
"Don't leave. Stay with me."
1580
01:33:47,583 --> 01:33:49,333
Yeah, little baby voice.
1581
01:33:49,333 --> 01:33:53,125
Robert was in his bedroom,
not feeling particularly well,
1582
01:33:53,125 --> 01:33:56,875
and he's like,
you know, he's like,
"I'd like to do a picture
1583
01:33:56,875 --> 01:33:59,041
"with my hand
holding the skull cane."
1584
01:33:59,041 --> 01:34:03,000
And I said to Brian,
I said, "Listen, this has got
to be a self-portrait."
1585
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:07,208
And it wasn't often
that he'd want to take
his own picture,
1586
01:34:07,208 --> 01:34:08,708
but he had been trying.
1587
01:34:08,708 --> 01:34:11,834
I took the skull cane
and I held it like this,
1588
01:34:11,834 --> 01:34:13,333
and I said, "Do a Polaroid."
1590
01:34:15,083 --> 01:34:17,708
I brought it to Robert, he was
like, "Wow. That's good."
1591
01:34:17,708 --> 01:34:19,542
His knee started to hurt,
1592
01:34:19,542 --> 01:34:22,417
so we put a chair
in for him to sit on.
1593
01:34:25,542 --> 01:34:28,625
That's the classic
masterpiece picture.
1594
01:34:28,625 --> 01:34:30,542
It's a tremendous photograph,
1595
01:34:30,542 --> 01:34:33,291
one of the greatest
self-portraits of all time.
1596
01:34:41,500 --> 01:34:44,083
It's 2:38 here in the WNBC.
1597
01:34:44,083 --> 01:34:46,333
cloudy, breezy,
chance of showers
1598
01:34:46,333 --> 01:34:48,333
and thunderstorms right
through the evening.
1599
01:34:48,333 --> 01:34:52,041
The low tonight in the low
60s, right now, 74 degrees.
1600
01:35:17,125 --> 01:35:20,875
There was something
electric that day.
1601
01:35:20,875 --> 01:35:23,083
It wasn't just an opening.
1602
01:35:23,083 --> 01:35:25,917
It was a...
1603
01:35:25,917 --> 01:35:29,834
a memorial
with a living corpse.
1604
01:35:31,333 --> 01:35:33,083
Your heart
just went out to him
1605
01:35:33,083 --> 01:35:35,708
because here he was
having the success
that he dreamed of
1606
01:35:35,708 --> 01:35:39,291
from those days in
coffee shops in the Village,
1607
01:35:39,291 --> 01:35:43,792
and, you know,
you could tell he was dying.
1608
01:35:47,625 --> 01:35:49,458
Not too much.
1609
01:35:49,458 --> 01:35:53,500
This is-- someone took
this picture of me
1610
01:35:53,500 --> 01:35:55,583
taking a picture of him.
1611
01:35:55,583 --> 01:35:58,667
He knew what
I was doing there.
1612
01:35:59,917 --> 01:36:01,834
I think he understood
the whole thing.
1613
01:36:01,834 --> 01:36:04,750
He didn't like it,
but he understood it.
1614
01:36:04,750 --> 01:36:07,750
I think that was
his proudest day, I really do.
1615
01:36:07,750 --> 01:36:11,333
He looked like
the king sitting there.
1616
01:36:15,333 --> 01:36:21,000
It had everything
from flowers to fist-fucking.
1617
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:24,125
And I had to go around
the room with my mother
in a wheelchair.
1618
01:36:27,125 --> 01:36:28,458
Wow, yeah.
1619
01:36:28,458 --> 01:36:30,291
When I saw
the one with the whip,
1620
01:36:30,291 --> 01:36:32,166
I said, "Oh, my God."
1621
01:36:32,166 --> 01:36:35,208
And I ran
and go to my kids and--
1622
01:36:35,208 --> 01:36:39,083
"That's him?
It was a self-portrait?"
1623
01:36:39,083 --> 01:36:41,667
He loved attention,
1624
01:36:41,667 --> 01:36:45,834
even though
it had to do with the fact
that he was a dying man,
1625
01:36:45,834 --> 01:36:47,208
it didn't matter.
1626
01:36:47,208 --> 01:36:51,375
It was one picture.
I mean it stunned people.
1627
01:36:51,375 --> 01:36:56,834
We all sort of were under
the impression it was gonna
be this glorious article,
1628
01:36:56,834 --> 01:37:00,375
when in fact,
that was sad.
Yeah.
1629
01:37:00,375 --> 01:37:02,959
I'm sure he saw
his own mortality...
Yeah.
1630
01:37:02,959 --> 01:37:05,041
...very clearly
at that moment.
1631
01:37:05,041 --> 01:37:09,959
His image out there,
this handsome, vain,
elegant creature,
1632
01:37:09,959 --> 01:37:16,417
and people really
were shocked.
1633
01:37:16,417 --> 01:37:20,542
I mean, come on, it was like,
he was alive.
1634
01:37:30,250 --> 01:37:32,750
Working with Robert
Mapplethorpe has been
1635
01:37:32,750 --> 01:37:34,417
my most enlightening
1636
01:37:34,417 --> 01:37:37,333
and rewarding curatorial
experience.
1637
01:37:37,333 --> 01:37:42,458
I felt that Robert
Mapplethorpe's work
was so important.
1638
01:37:42,458 --> 01:37:46,917
So I went to New York
and visited him at his studio.
1639
01:37:46,917 --> 01:37:50,083
We started to talk.
He was very easy to talk to.
1640
01:37:50,083 --> 01:37:54,834
I felt after five minutes
that I had known him
a long time.
1641
01:37:54,834 --> 01:37:57,708
Have you ever seen
the X, Y, Z portfolios?
1642
01:37:57,708 --> 01:38:03,041
There's an X portfolio
which is sex pictures,
there's 13 of them,
1643
01:38:03,041 --> 01:38:05,792
and then there's Y
which is flowers,
1644
01:38:05,792 --> 01:38:08,041
and the Z which is blacks.
1645
01:38:08,041 --> 01:38:13,583
He was particularly interested
in showing the X, Y, Z series,
1646
01:38:13,583 --> 01:38:17,500
which had not been shown
before in its entirety.
1647
01:38:17,500 --> 01:38:19,792
It may be interesting
to have a wall
1648
01:38:19,792 --> 01:38:22,375
where you have
a row of X, Y, and Z
1649
01:38:22,375 --> 01:38:25,542
on one mass, sort of,
in three rows of something.
1650
01:38:25,542 --> 01:38:28,208
We devised a way
of displaying them
1651
01:38:28,208 --> 01:38:34,625
in a case that would
be so high that a child
could not see into it,
1652
01:38:34,625 --> 01:38:37,750
but an adult could
look down upon it.
1653
01:38:37,750 --> 01:38:40,959
I remember showing my husband
some of the pictures
1654
01:38:40,959 --> 01:38:44,166
before the exhibition opened.
1655
01:38:44,166 --> 01:38:46,667
He said, "Janet, do you
know what you're doing?"
1656
01:38:46,667 --> 01:38:51,291
But I didn't listen to him.
Maybe I was crazy.
1658
01:38:57,166 --> 01:38:58,500
Hi, Robert!
1659
01:38:58,500 --> 01:39:01,000
Here we are.
You're with us.
1660
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:03,708
You're with us
and we're with you.
1661
01:39:05,500 --> 01:39:12,500
I think you can tell
whether a show is successful
by the sound in the gallery.
1662
01:39:12,500 --> 01:39:18,625
If people are talking a lot,
you know, somehow the show
just doesn't have it.
1663
01:39:20,834 --> 01:39:27,083
In the Mapplethorpe show,
there was silence.
1664
01:39:27,083 --> 01:39:29,208
You could hear a pin drop.
1665
01:39:49,083 --> 01:39:52,417
This one time, it was
a terrible night for Robert
1666
01:39:52,417 --> 01:39:56,083
and he was almost
hallucinating a bit
1667
01:39:56,083 --> 01:39:58,500
and he ended up pulling out
some of the IVs,
1668
01:39:58,500 --> 01:40:02,208
so I had blood dripping
out of his arm, and IVs,
1669
01:40:02,208 --> 01:40:05,166
and I had to-- he-- I know
I had to clean him up.
1670
01:40:05,166 --> 01:40:09,417
He'd shat in the bed,
and I'm like, "Oh, my God."
1671
01:40:09,417 --> 01:40:13,708
That night, Robert looked
at me teary-eyed, crying,
1672
01:40:13,708 --> 01:40:16,458
and said, "Oh, my God."
He's like, "I'm dying.
1673
01:40:19,583 --> 01:40:24,208
"I'm dying."
And I had to say, "Yeah."
1674
01:40:28,875 --> 01:40:32,583
What could you--
I couldn't-- I mean, "Yes."
1676
01:40:42,667 --> 01:40:46,875
Robert gave a going-away
party for himself,
1677
01:40:46,875 --> 01:40:50,834
a lavish cocktail party
at his loft.
1678
01:40:50,834 --> 01:40:53,542
Waiters walking
around with silver trays
1679
01:40:53,542 --> 01:40:59,083
with a little tiny Bellini
and caviar and champagne.
1680
01:40:59,083 --> 01:41:01,917
It was very elegant.
1682
01:41:12,166 --> 01:41:15,917
And Robert was sitting
in the middle of the room.
1683
01:41:15,917 --> 01:41:19,083
I walked up to him
and kneeled down at his feet
1684
01:41:19,083 --> 01:41:21,291
and came
face-to-face with him.
1685
01:41:21,291 --> 01:41:23,041
He said,
"You still look so beautiful."
1686
01:41:23,041 --> 01:41:25,250
And I said, "Thank you."
1687
01:41:27,792 --> 01:41:30,166
I said, "What do you
want me to do?"
1688
01:41:30,166 --> 01:41:33,792
He said, "I want you
to tell her everything.
1689
01:41:33,792 --> 01:41:35,959
Keep me alive."
1690
01:41:42,875 --> 01:41:45,708
"March 8th.
Well, this is it.
1691
01:41:45,708 --> 01:41:48,166
"The last two days
have been hell.
1692
01:41:48,166 --> 01:41:50,834
"The funny part is not knowing
how to say goodbye.
1693
01:41:50,834 --> 01:41:55,125
"Letting go.
Are words enough?"
1694
01:41:55,125 --> 01:41:57,834
I was just like,
"Come on, Robert."
1695
01:41:57,834 --> 01:41:59,500
Just like have
a conversation with me
1696
01:41:59,500 --> 01:42:01,417
and just say, "You know what,
I'm proud of you,
1697
01:42:01,417 --> 01:42:05,375
and just keep it going,
and just do good work."
1698
01:42:05,375 --> 01:42:08,875
And... never got it.
1699
01:42:08,875 --> 01:42:11,333
Never got it.
1701
01:42:15,458 --> 01:42:18,375
Some days, yes,
and some days, no.
1702
01:42:18,375 --> 01:42:20,333
You know, on a daily basis,
1703
01:42:20,333 --> 01:42:23,166
I would say in any given day,
I'm happy part of the time
1704
01:42:23,166 --> 01:42:24,834
and not the rest, you know.
1705
01:42:24,834 --> 01:42:28,625
I think I'm a perfectionist
and I think it's hard
to be happy
1706
01:42:28,625 --> 01:42:30,708
if you like things
to be perfect
1707
01:42:30,708 --> 01:42:32,875
because things
are not perfect.
1709
01:42:48,417 --> 01:42:50,959
I don't know whether
the television cameras
can see it or not.
1710
01:42:50,959 --> 01:42:53,333
I'm gonna be fast enough
with it that they can't.
1711
01:42:53,333 --> 01:42:57,125
But I want senators to come
over here, if they have
any doubt
1712
01:42:57,125 --> 01:42:59,000
and look at the pictures.
1713
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:00,667
Keep your hands off!
1714
01:43:00,667 --> 01:43:02,834
I don't even
acknowledge that it's art.
1715
01:43:02,834 --> 01:43:05,083
Keep your hands off!
Get your hands off!
1716
01:43:05,083 --> 01:43:06,500
I don't even acknowledge
1717
01:43:06,500 --> 01:43:08,291
that the fellow who did it
was an artist.
1718
01:43:08,291 --> 01:43:09,625
I think he was a jerk.
1719
01:43:09,625 --> 01:43:12,959
Keep your hands off!
Get your hands off!
1720
01:43:12,959 --> 01:43:15,750
Keep your hands off!
Keep your hands off!
1721
01:43:15,750 --> 01:43:18,625
Keep your hands off!
Keep your hands off!
1722
01:43:18,625 --> 01:43:21,083
This line is
for two o'clock only.
1723
01:43:21,083 --> 01:43:24,208
You need a pass to get in
to see the exhibition.
1724
01:43:35,917 --> 01:43:37,792
It happened.
1725
01:43:37,792 --> 01:43:41,125
What you're watching now
is the Cincinnati Police as
they made their move today
1726
01:43:41,125 --> 01:43:42,792
against The Contemporary
Arts Center.
1727
01:43:42,792 --> 01:43:44,083
They temporarily closed
1728
01:43:44,083 --> 01:43:46,125
the controversial
Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit
1729
01:43:46,125 --> 01:43:51,166
that resulted in charges today
against The Contemporary Arts
Center and its director.
1730
01:43:51,166 --> 01:43:54,125
It's an important exhibition.
It's important for this city
1731
01:43:54,125 --> 01:43:55,667
that it be seen here.
1733
01:43:59,041 --> 01:44:02,375
It was suggested that I wear
a bulletproof vest.
1734
01:44:02,375 --> 01:44:04,959
There would be calls to
the home or calls to my office
1735
01:44:04,959 --> 01:44:06,625
saying, "We're gonna
kill your children."
1736
01:44:44,750 --> 01:44:46,667
The art gallery
and its director
1737
01:44:46,667 --> 01:44:50,875
are charged with obscenity
for exhibiting photographs by
the late Robert Mapplethorpe.
1739
01:44:55,166 --> 01:44:57,500
The jury took about two hours
to come up with its decision.
1740
01:44:57,500 --> 01:45:00,333
We, the jury in this case,
find the defendant not guilty
1741
01:45:00,333 --> 01:45:03,375
of pandering obscenity.
1742
01:45:03,375 --> 01:45:05,708
Order! Order!
1745
01:45:13,792 --> 01:45:16,708
Next up is the Robert
Mapplethorpe Flag,
1746
01:45:16,708 --> 01:45:20,083
the great "Star-Spangled
Banner," gelatin silver print,
1747
01:45:20,083 --> 01:45:23,083
for $48,000.
Now goes to 48,000,
1748
01:45:23,083 --> 01:45:26,917
48,000, 50, 55,000,
60, 65,000. Thank you, ma'am.
1749
01:45:26,917 --> 01:45:28,750
He was always
giving me his work.
1750
01:45:28,750 --> 01:45:30,625
$70,000 with Caroline.
1751
01:45:30,625 --> 01:45:33,875
I had, at least, half a dozen
photographs and a collage.
1752
01:45:33,875 --> 01:45:35,375
$70,000.
1753
01:45:35,375 --> 01:45:37,208
Don't ask me what
I did with this, please,
1754
01:45:37,208 --> 01:45:42,291
because if I kept it,
I wouldn't be here.
I'd be in my villa in Tuscany.
1755
01:45:42,291 --> 01:45:45,083
I can't discuss,
too upsetting.
1756
01:45:45,083 --> 01:45:46,583
Sold!
1757
01:45:46,583 --> 01:45:47,667
I threw it away.
1758
01:45:47,667 --> 01:45:48,875
Sold!
1759
01:45:48,875 --> 01:45:49,917
When I moved.
1760
01:45:49,917 --> 01:45:51,125
Sold!
1761
01:45:51,125 --> 01:45:53,708
I told this once
to an art dealer.
1762
01:45:53,708 --> 01:45:55,959
And he said, "I can't believe
you didn't know
1763
01:45:55,959 --> 01:46:00,542
"that someone as ambitious as
Robert-- as clearly ambitious,
wouldn't become famous."
1764
01:46:00,542 --> 01:46:02,792
And I said, "No one
could have imagined
1765
01:46:02,792 --> 01:46:05,959
"that photographs would
be so valuable financially."
1766
01:46:05,959 --> 01:46:08,542
Because they weren't.
No photographs were.
1767
01:46:08,542 --> 01:46:11,792
It wasn't just
that I couldn't imagine it.
No one could imagine it.
1768
01:46:16,959 --> 01:46:24,083
Whatever it took
to become Robert Mapplethorpe
1769
01:46:24,083 --> 01:46:26,250
is what it was gonna take
1770
01:46:26,250 --> 01:46:30,959
and it took
his life to do it...
1771
01:46:33,792 --> 01:46:35,583
Literally.
1774
01:47:18,250 --> 01:47:20,542
Mapplethorpe by himself,
the name is really great.
1775
01:47:20,542 --> 01:47:23,583
It's like Titian or Piranesi.
1776
01:47:23,583 --> 01:47:26,083
Just the name,
that's all you need
1777
01:47:26,083 --> 01:47:28,000
is the last name
to recognize the artist.
1778
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:29,834
It's so clear and simple.
1779
01:47:29,834 --> 01:47:33,500
What if you stacked
three images into the...
1780
01:47:33,500 --> 01:47:36,417
We can't have nudity
on the street banners
'cause the city regulations.
1781
01:47:36,417 --> 01:47:40,125
So that's one point
of discussion,
second is the color.
1782
01:47:40,125 --> 01:47:44,000
This is a mock-up
of the invitation
for our opening reception.
1783
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:47,542
His self-portrait
on the front,
then inside message.
1784
01:47:47,542 --> 01:47:49,625
Then the RSVP card.
1785
01:47:49,625 --> 01:47:54,542
It's just an innocuous flower,
not anything that the Post
Office would object to.
1786
01:47:54,542 --> 01:47:56,792
I'm not planning to put
a curtain, but I'm sure
1787
01:47:56,792 --> 01:48:00,667
there'll be some kind
of warning on the gallery
as people go in.
1788
01:48:00,667 --> 01:48:03,542
Well, and with her holding
her sculpture.
1789
01:48:03,542 --> 01:48:05,750
-Oh, that was purposeful.
-Yeah, it's so great.
1790
01:48:05,750 --> 01:48:08,875
I wanted to put
Louise Bourgeois holding
her sculpture, Lafayette,
1791
01:48:08,875 --> 01:48:13,834
which looks like a phallus,
next to the picture of
"Man in the Polyester Suit."
1792
01:48:13,834 --> 01:48:17,542
-Yes, with his actual phallus.
-It's a curatorial pun.
143240