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1
00:00:07,361 --> 00:00:11,103
I feel like... something bad
is gonna happen to me.
2
00:00:12,566 --> 00:00:15,376
I feel like something bad
has happened.
3
00:00:15,969 --> 00:00:19,211
It hasn't reached me yet,
but it's on its way.
4
00:00:31,117 --> 00:00:32,174
I don't know why it's important.
5
00:00:32,175 --> 00:00:35,812
It's like how it helps people, like,
dealing with her loss,
6
00:00:35,813 --> 00:00:39,233
like making up stories about ghosts
or whatever.
7
00:00:51,103 --> 00:00:53,082
Alice kept secrets.
8
00:00:53,605 --> 00:00:57,621
She... kept the fact
she kept secrets a secret.
9
00:01:06,884 --> 00:01:11,479
It's hard for some people to understand,
but you have to believe you're to blame
10
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,434
or else there's nothing to hold on to.
11
00:01:48,792 --> 00:01:49,849
Police and emergency service.
12
00:01:49,850 --> 00:01:53,008
My daughter, Alice, has gone missing.
We need some...
13
00:01:53,262 --> 00:01:55,897
- How long ago did you last...
- She was in the dam...
14
00:01:55,898 --> 00:01:57,137
looked everywhere.
15
00:02:00,703 --> 00:02:04,035
- Do you know where you are?
- We're on the other side of the dam.
16
00:02:04,036 --> 00:02:06,835
- She's been missing for quite a few...
- Okay.
17
00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:10,537
- Please send someone now.
- I need you to talk to me for a second.
18
00:02:10,538 --> 00:02:14,560
- We don't know where she is.
- Hello, June, can you hear me?
19
00:02:25,026 --> 00:02:28,893
The normally tranquil setting of Ararat's
Norval Dam was shattered yesterday...
20
00:02:28,894 --> 00:02:31,487
with the disappearance
of 16-year-old Alice Palmer...
21
00:02:31,488 --> 00:02:33,192
while picnicking with her family.
22
00:02:33,193 --> 00:02:37,420
We received a call around
6:00 pm. tonight of a missing girl,
23
00:02:37,705 --> 00:02:39,535
and on discovering
the nature of the situation...
24
00:02:39,536 --> 00:02:42,199
we called in the search-and-rescue
divers from Melbourne.
25
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,767
Police divers entered the water around
10 o'clock with SES volunteers...
26
00:02:45,768 --> 00:02:47,244
joining a fruitless search...
27
00:02:47,245 --> 00:02:50,863
Matt and Ali had swum out
to the middle of the dam.
28
00:02:51,351 --> 00:02:55,684
I could see them from where
I was sitting at the picnic area.
29
00:02:55,685 --> 00:02:57,985
I think we'd been in the water
for about 15 minutes,
30
00:02:57,986 --> 00:03:01,709
and I said that I was gonna get out.
It was cold.
31
00:03:02,896 --> 00:03:05,998
So, I started swimming back
and she didn't come out with me,
32
00:03:05,999 --> 00:03:08,444
so I thought
she's gonna stay in there.
33
00:03:09,703 --> 00:03:11,944
I remember Matty got out,
34
00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,519
and a few minutes later,
I heard him ask where was Alice.
35
00:03:22,181 --> 00:03:26,844
So, I stood up
and looked out across the dam,
36
00:03:26,845 --> 00:03:30,365
and the water was completely still.
37
00:03:31,957 --> 00:03:33,799
So I called out.
38
00:03:34,993 --> 00:03:39,441
I looked out over the water
to see if I could see her.
39
00:03:42,133 --> 00:03:45,465
And both the boys had kind of checked,
40
00:03:45,466 --> 00:03:49,484
you know, the bush land behind.
41
00:03:49,841 --> 00:03:53,788
I could see Alice's towel,
she'd left it on the ground,
42
00:03:55,180 --> 00:03:57,545
and she clearly hadn't got
out of the water...
43
00:03:57,546 --> 00:04:01,858
because then, you know,
she would have picked up her towel, so.. .
44
00:04:03,153 --> 00:04:06,964
Yeah, that was the last time
that I saw her.
45
00:04:28,011 --> 00:04:31,707
Police continue to hold grave fears
for 16-year-old Alice Palmer
46
00:04:31,708 --> 00:04:34,192
who disappeared while picnicking
with her family.
47
00:04:34,584 --> 00:04:35,845
Police search-and-rescue divers...
48
00:04:35,846 --> 00:04:38,102
We were told to go home,
49
00:04:40,223 --> 00:04:43,555
and if the search-and-rescue divers
found anything
50
00:04:43,556 --> 00:04:45,935
then they'd let us know immediately.
51
00:04:58,106 --> 00:05:00,403
It felt very strange in the car
on the way home
52
00:05:00,404 --> 00:05:03,125
because there was one empty seat.
53
00:05:03,378 --> 00:05:08,496
One minute she was there and then gone.
54
00:05:11,152 --> 00:05:13,949
I went back to stay
with the Palmers that night.
55
00:05:13,950 --> 00:05:17,729
We were just mostly waiting,
mostly waiting for news.
56
00:05:20,294 --> 00:05:23,775
For bad news. There was that expectation.
57
00:05:24,498 --> 00:05:29,208
We got a call from Russell on his mobile
about 9:00 at night.
58
00:05:29,637 --> 00:05:34,073
And he said there'd been an accident
at the weir,
59
00:05:34,074 --> 00:05:36,733
and Alice had gone missing.
60
00:05:36,734 --> 00:05:40,826
So, we thought
that we better go to Ararat.
61
00:05:41,348 --> 00:05:46,649
I remember June was a bit funny
about seeing Iris,
62
00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:50,086
there was a strange feeling between them.
63
00:05:50,087 --> 00:05:54,466
It felt a little strange
having my mother there.
64
00:05:55,427 --> 00:05:57,770
Mum and I, there for Alice,
65
00:05:59,264 --> 00:06:02,608
just didn't feel like the right order
of things.
66
00:06:04,737 --> 00:06:07,182
It was an awful, awful night.
67
00:06:07,940 --> 00:06:10,181
Worst night of our lives.
68
00:06:14,646 --> 00:06:17,341
I went into Alice's room later that night
69
00:06:17,342 --> 00:06:24,265
and her phone went off a couple of times,
but I didn't answer it.
70
00:06:30,461 --> 00:06:33,111
I remember, the bed was made.
71
00:06:34,132 --> 00:06:37,442
I remember thinking
how neat everything looked.
72
00:06:51,415 --> 00:06:54,872
I got a call from Alice's mum, June.
73
00:06:54,873 --> 00:07:01,140
She'd said that Alice is missing
and presumed, like, she drowned
74
00:07:02,859 --> 00:07:04,621
and I didn't not believe her,
75
00:07:04,622 --> 00:07:08,993
but, I don't know,
it was kind of hard to take,
76
00:07:08,994 --> 00:07:12,864
so I actually called Alice's mobile.
77
00:07:12,865 --> 00:07:14,447
I just.. .
78
00:07:16,672 --> 00:07:17,968
Maybe wanted to see if.. .
79
00:07:17,969 --> 00:07:20,622
Hope it was a joke or something,
I don't know.
80
00:07:20,943 --> 00:07:24,026
It was just a real shock.
81
00:07:25,581 --> 00:07:28,629
Just didn't really feel like it was real.
82
00:07:30,852 --> 00:07:35,698
Everything was the same as always,
but people were saying Alice had drowned.
83
00:07:35,790 --> 00:07:39,874
Are there any memories from that night
that stand out for you?
84
00:07:41,629 --> 00:07:44,279
I remember we had the porch light on.
85
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,850
Still do, actually, just in case.
86
00:07:48,903 --> 00:07:50,745
And why is that?
87
00:07:59,514 --> 00:08:02,357
Just in case she comes home, I guess.
88
00:08:24,904 --> 00:08:26,781
All right, get in.
89
00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:35,338
The SES divers located Alice's body
at approximately 9/25 p. m .
90
00:08:35,339 --> 00:08:39,372
They used sonar to locate her.
And she'd drifted some way
91
00:08:39,373 --> 00:08:44,036
and come to rest on a shelf at the bottom
of the storm water system in the dam.
92
00:08:45,258 --> 00:08:47,840
Obviously contacted the family
immediately.
93
00:08:48,995 --> 00:08:51,928
As soon as we were told
that they'd found the body,
94
00:08:51,929 --> 00:08:53,327
June and I went down to the dam.
95
00:08:53,328 --> 00:08:55,524
Georgie'd come over to keep Matt company.
96
00:08:55,525 --> 00:09:00,627
It was all very official and formal,
and they asked me to sign a statement
97
00:09:00,628 --> 00:09:02,296
of identification.
98
00:09:02,297 --> 00:09:04,489
June stayed in the car.
99
00:09:06,210 --> 00:09:08,336
And, you know, on reflection,
I think that was a mistake
100
00:09:08,337 --> 00:09:10,926
because she didn't have any closure.
101
00:09:13,017 --> 00:09:17,363
I just couldn't bring myself
to identify Alice's body.
102
00:09:18,289 --> 00:09:22,588
She'd been underwater
all that time and it...
103
00:09:22,589 --> 00:09:24,901
I guess it's not how I.. .
104
00:09:25,629 --> 00:09:28,814
I didn't want to remember her in that way.
105
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,311
I thought that was my responsibility
as Ali's dad, you know.
106
00:09:37,607 --> 00:09:39,848
That's what a father does.
107
00:09:59,394 --> 00:10:02,385
The car stalled on the way back
from the dam.
108
00:10:02,386 --> 00:10:05,626
But the only gear I could get it into
was reverse.
109
00:10:05,627 --> 00:10:09,352
So, we drove back into town in reverse.
110
00:10:10,339 --> 00:10:15,139
Which was either that or walk.
And given everything that had happened,
111
00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:17,860
seemed like the better option, really.
112
00:10:29,090 --> 00:10:32,707
The autopsy was performed on the Monday,
the 27th.
113
00:10:34,929 --> 00:10:40,708
Then the coroner released the body
on Tuesday, the 28th.
114
00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:48,514
It was very strange spending Christmas Day
with the family up there
115
00:10:49,075 --> 00:10:51,850
while Alice lay alone in the morgue.
116
00:11:01,921 --> 00:11:06,482
I don't know, it was just like I hadn't
seen her for a week or anything, like.. .
117
00:11:06,483 --> 00:11:08,834
Yeah, it didn't feel real.
118
00:11:13,832 --> 00:11:16,698
Death takes everything eventually.
119
00:11:16,699 --> 00:11:19,430
It's the meanest, dumbest machine
there is, and it just keeps coming...
120
00:11:19,431 --> 00:11:21,518
and it doesn't care.
121
00:11:23,609 --> 00:11:26,851
There's nothing else
to know about it, really.
122
00:11:29,214 --> 00:11:32,849
It was a somber day
for the family and friends of Alice Palmer
123
00:11:32,850 --> 00:11:37,161
who gathered to pay their final respects
to a young woman taken too soon.
124
00:11:37,221 --> 00:11:41,339
She was a great person.
Very popular, clever, lovely.
125
00:11:42,193 --> 00:11:44,070
She was.. . I don't.. . Yeah.
126
00:11:44,128 --> 00:11:48,325
Alice is remembered as a happy,
fun-loving girl with a zest for life.
127
00:11:48,326 --> 00:11:50,263
Described as always putting others...
128
00:11:50,264 --> 00:11:53,678
The Palmers were really doing it tough
at that time.
129
00:11:54,972 --> 00:11:58,668
And when I think of
how bad it was back then,
130
00:11:58,669 --> 00:12:02,257
it's hard to imagine
how much worse they would get.
131
00:12:15,225 --> 00:12:19,489
Ten days after Ali's funeral,
so that makes it the 15th of January,
132
00:12:19,490 --> 00:12:24,078
stuff started happening around the house.
Noises in the roof,
133
00:12:25,101 --> 00:12:29,537
and sounds coming
from outside the window
134
00:12:29,538 --> 00:12:34,292
and other movements
that seemed to come from Ali's old room.
135
00:12:35,778 --> 00:12:40,305
So, we re-hung the door to Ali's room,
136
00:12:40,306 --> 00:12:44,317
and we got a pest controller to come in
and check for termites.
137
00:12:44,318 --> 00:12:46,683
But it didn't help at all,
138
00:12:46,684 --> 00:12:51,533
the door kept slamming and we still kept
getting the noises from her room.
139
00:12:53,661 --> 00:12:56,151
There was just something weird
about that house.
140
00:12:56,152 --> 00:12:59,097
It had a really strange feeling about it.
141
00:12:59,098 --> 00:13:02,897
I really can't explain to you
what it was exactly,
142
00:13:02,898 --> 00:13:08,089
but you'd go in there and just have
this bad feeling, like, in your gut.
143
00:13:17,384 --> 00:13:20,546
I started having these nightmares,
144
00:13:20,547 --> 00:13:24,317
and they were so distressing
145
00:13:24,318 --> 00:13:29,408
that sometimes
I just wouldn't want to open my eyes.
146
00:13:30,030 --> 00:13:32,510
I'd woken up,
but I didn't want to open my eyes.
147
00:13:34,535 --> 00:13:39,402
There was one particular one,
it was quite vivid and recurring.
148
00:13:39,403 --> 00:13:44,238
Alice would come down the hall
still dripping from the dam
149
00:13:44,239 --> 00:13:49,020
and just stand at the foot of our bed,
just staring at us.
150
00:13:49,882 --> 00:13:55,398
It was quite terrifying,
as I said, I didn't want to open my eyes.
151
00:13:59,224 --> 00:14:02,681
By early February
my nightmares were getting so bad
152
00:14:02,682 --> 00:14:08,630
that I began to go for walks at night,
sometimes for hours at a time,
153
00:14:08,631 --> 00:14:11,259
just so that I didn't have
to go to bed at night
154
00:14:11,260 --> 00:14:14,020
and close my eyes and go to sleep.
155
00:14:17,342 --> 00:14:20,789
Sometimes I would actually go
into people's houses.
156
00:14:21,313 --> 00:14:24,794
I didn't feel
like I was doing anything wrong.
157
00:14:25,150 --> 00:14:30,359
I guess I really just wanted to be inside
someone else's life for a while.
158
00:14:41,632 --> 00:14:44,690
Georgie, do you remember
how Russell was doing at that time?
159
00:14:44,691 --> 00:14:49,465
Yeah, Russell was.. .
He was working a lot at that point.
160
00:14:49,466 --> 00:14:52,986
I think that might have helped him
with his grief.
161
00:14:53,376 --> 00:14:55,491
Send it through without any explanation.
162
00:14:55,912 --> 00:15:00,143
Russell and I met actually
on the Gippsland Catchment project in '98
163
00:15:00,144 --> 00:15:02,274
and worked together on that.
164
00:15:02,275 --> 00:15:04,080
So, you guys have known each other
for a few years?
165
00:15:04,081 --> 00:15:05,529
Yeah, a good few years, yeah.
166
00:15:08,658 --> 00:15:12,855
Do you remember how he was affected
after Alice's death? What changed?
167
00:15:12,856 --> 00:15:17,364
It was work as normal,
and that was troubling actually.
168
00:15:17,365 --> 00:15:20,947
I didn't really know
what to say to him about that.
169
00:15:21,870 --> 00:15:23,461
You never spoke about it?
170
00:15:23,462 --> 00:15:26,529
Not really.
Everyone grieves in their own way.
171
00:15:26,530 --> 00:15:31,419
And it wasn't really my place
to be telling him how to feel.
172
00:15:32,446 --> 00:15:35,290
But I certainly...
I certainly was concerned.
173
00:15:37,285 --> 00:15:40,504
I was really grateful that I had my work.
174
00:15:40,922 --> 00:15:44,015
And, I mean, I felt really guilty
about that at the time.
175
00:15:44,016 --> 00:15:47,435
But, you know,
I just wanted to get on with it.
176
00:15:51,699 --> 00:15:55,498
Then one night, in late February,
177
00:15:55,499 --> 00:15:59,255
I came home from work,
and I was sitting in the kitchen
178
00:15:59,573 --> 00:16:02,656
and I heard a noise coming
from Ali's room.
179
00:16:04,044 --> 00:16:08,446
So, I went into Ali's room,
and I don't really know why,
180
00:16:08,447 --> 00:16:13,759
but I sort of found myself sitting down
in the chair in front of the dresser.
181
00:16:15,855 --> 00:16:18,345
And before I could kind of work out
what I was doing there,
182
00:16:18,346 --> 00:16:21,881
Ali walked in and she went over
to her desk
183
00:16:21,882 --> 00:16:23,791
and started sharpening a pencil,
184
00:16:23,792 --> 00:16:29,812
and then she looked like she was checking
for a text message on her phone.
185
00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:34,321
And, you know,
I was completely freaked out.
186
00:16:35,474 --> 00:16:39,091
She was completely oblivious
to my presence.
187
00:16:40,813 --> 00:16:44,475
And then I don't know what happened,
I must have moved the bed
188
00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:46,915
or, you know,
squeaked my shoes or something,
189
00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:49,431
but she went completely rigid.
190
00:16:50,422 --> 00:16:55,108
And I knew then that she knew I was there.
191
00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:01,488
And she slowly turned around and
she looked me right in the eye fully for,
192
00:17:01,489 --> 00:17:04,659
you know, what felt like forever.
193
00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:10,400
And then she just came at me and stood up
and said, "Get out! Get out!"
194
00:17:10,401 --> 00:17:14,751
And I just got up
and went out as fast as I could.
195
00:17:16,113 --> 00:17:17,875
I could hear Russell crying.
196
00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:21,383
And he was here in the kitchen,
Mathew and I both found him in here,
197
00:17:21,384 --> 00:17:23,611
and he was sobbing.
198
00:17:23,612 --> 00:17:26,030
He was absolutely inconsolable.
199
00:17:26,690 --> 00:17:29,817
Do you believe Russell
when he says he saw a ghost?
200
00:17:29,818 --> 00:17:33,658
Yeah, I do. I believe he saw what he saw.
201
00:17:33,659 --> 00:17:38,644
And he wouldn't... He's not
the kinda man to make something up.
202
00:17:39,102 --> 00:17:41,581
So, I believe he saw something.
203
00:17:42,872 --> 00:17:46,785
Whether it's a real ghost or not,
I don't really know.
204
00:17:47,543 --> 00:17:49,590
But I'm sure he saw something.
205
00:18:07,395 --> 00:18:11,421
I remember trying to talk
to members of the church
206
00:18:11,422 --> 00:18:15,185
about how to help June
and how to help the Palmers.
207
00:18:15,904 --> 00:18:20,352
But there just didn't seem like
there was anything we could do.
208
00:18:20,909 --> 00:18:24,844
I think part of the reason was
because they weren't churchgoers.
209
00:18:24,845 --> 00:18:28,154
So, didn't know how to offer them comfort.
210
00:18:31,185 --> 00:18:34,165
I don't even know what June believes in.
211
00:18:35,189 --> 00:18:38,374
I found myself mostly concerned
about Mathew.
212
00:18:39,626 --> 00:18:42,788
I guess
because those two were always so close,
213
00:18:42,789 --> 00:18:45,444
I was worried how he would cope.
214
00:18:53,306 --> 00:18:56,753
I remember he was spending
a lot more time alone.
215
00:18:58,544 --> 00:19:01,024
We were all worried about him.
216
00:19:04,350 --> 00:19:08,752
Mathew came in with some unusual bruises
on his body.
217
00:19:08,753 --> 00:19:12,768
They were unusual
in terms of their distribution and depth.
218
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,792
We obviously took a history,
trying to exclude trauma,
219
00:19:17,793 --> 00:19:22,060
but there was certainly no history
of trauma that he was able to give us.
220
00:19:22,061 --> 00:19:23,964
We tested him for vasculitis,
221
00:19:23,965 --> 00:19:28,153
and we also excluded any poisoning
or toxins in his system.
222
00:19:28,673 --> 00:19:31,470
We were unable
to turn up anything conclusive.
223
00:19:31,471 --> 00:19:37,526
And several weeks after this,
the bruises just resolved spontaneously.
224
00:19:37,882 --> 00:19:41,829
And we were never able
to really establish a cause for them.
225
00:19:44,455 --> 00:19:47,868
My name's Steve Wilkie.
I'm Mathew's best friend.
226
00:19:48,225 --> 00:19:51,933
I usually stay at Mathew's house
two or three times a week.
227
00:19:54,999 --> 00:20:01,085
We started a band together,
so, we normally play music at my house.
228
00:20:02,173 --> 00:20:06,540
Mathew seems a bit quieter,
but he was always pretty quiet,
229
00:20:06,541 --> 00:20:11,193
so, I guess there wasn't really
any warning bells going off or anything.
230
00:20:11,781 --> 00:20:15,011
Well, I had heard
about June going into people's houses.
231
00:20:15,012 --> 00:20:17,916
And Mathew never really seemed
to want to talk about any of that.
232
00:20:17,917 --> 00:20:20,670
I never asked him about any of it.
233
00:20:26,128 --> 00:20:29,119
I know that he was always interested
in photography.
234
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,721
And he was...
235
00:20:30,722 --> 00:20:34,712
At this time, he was starting to pursue it
with more passion.
236
00:20:39,074 --> 00:20:43,635
Mathew came to me, he was very keen
to find out anything about photography.
237
00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:47,704
So, I was more than willing to help out,
that's what I do.
238
00:20:47,705 --> 00:20:51,411
So, he was picking my brains
about just about anything to do with it,
239
00:20:51,412 --> 00:20:55,102
from equipment, down to techniques,
down to lighting, you know.
240
00:20:55,890 --> 00:20:59,667
But he was a great asset,
so, I mean, eventually I employed him.
241
00:21:25,285 --> 00:21:28,014
Mathew, can you talk to me
about the photographs
242
00:21:28,015 --> 00:21:31,171
of the backyard that you've been taking?
243
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,806
Yeah, basically I've taken that same photo
244
00:21:36,563 --> 00:21:41,199
with that composition for, I think,
every 4 months for the past 4 years.
245
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,850
And it's just a photograph
of the backyard.
246
00:21:43,902 --> 00:21:46,586
Looking out,
you can see the hills in the distance.
247
00:21:46,739 --> 00:21:48,286
It's just like a little project
248
00:21:49,074 --> 00:21:51,189
that I set up for myself when we got here.
249
00:21:52,144 --> 00:21:56,193
And what was in the April 28th photograph
that was different?
250
00:21:57,215 --> 00:22:02,129
Well, it's basically the same shot,
251
00:22:03,621 --> 00:22:08,672
but it would appear
that Alice is standing against the fence.
252
00:22:16,768 --> 00:22:20,567
Do you remember what the reaction
in the house was at the time?
253
00:22:20,568 --> 00:22:25,416
I wouldn't say the mood was good,
but it was better than before.
254
00:22:26,144 --> 00:22:31,671
It was like.. . Like it gave us
sort of something to focus on, I think.
255
00:22:31,672 --> 00:22:33,056
All of us.
256
00:22:36,953 --> 00:22:39,318
The photographs were taken
on the 3rd of April,
257
00:22:39,319 --> 00:22:45,406
and they were developed on the 4th,
and I looked at them, I think on the 5th.
258
00:22:46,162 --> 00:22:50,063
And looked at the dams and the water
levels and I was quite happy.
259
00:22:50,064 --> 00:22:53,965
But it was only the following night
that it was pointed out to me by my wife
260
00:22:53,966 --> 00:22:55,366
that there was something
in the background
261
00:22:55,367 --> 00:22:58,088
in Norval Dam, this image came up.
262
00:23:11,821 --> 00:23:16,086
When I first looked at the photograph,
I didn't know what to make of it.
263
00:23:16,087 --> 00:23:22,346
The image was quite unsettling
because it certainly looked like Alice.
264
00:23:23,698 --> 00:23:27,076
It was an incredibly discomforting image.
265
00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:35,186
And I became convinced
that Alice was still alive.
266
00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:47,026
I didn't have any rational explanation
for who was in those photos.
267
00:23:48,188 --> 00:23:52,521
But I did know something about Alice
that June didn't.
268
00:23:52,522 --> 00:23:57,644
I'd seen Alice's body.
I didn't think she was alive.
269
00:23:59,199 --> 00:24:01,110
I knew she wasn't.
270
00:24:01,802 --> 00:24:04,986
I became convinced
that Russell had made a mistake.
271
00:24:06,139 --> 00:24:09,950
He himself said
that it didn't look like anybody anymore.
272
00:24:12,378 --> 00:24:14,311
June was so convinced
that I'd made a mistake
273
00:24:14,312 --> 00:24:17,246
that I actually started
to have doubts myself.
274
00:24:17,247 --> 00:24:21,910
I started to think
maybe I'd made my mind up
275
00:24:21,911 --> 00:24:25,649
that it was Alice's body
before I'd looked,
276
00:24:25,650 --> 00:24:29,921
and that the circumstances
were so compelling for me,
277
00:24:29,922 --> 00:24:33,840
that I'd decided that it was her.
278
00:24:36,234 --> 00:24:40,750
More than three months after the funeral
of Ararat teenager Alice Palmer,
279
00:24:40,772 --> 00:24:43,069
her grieving parents formally requested
280
00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:45,825
her body be exhumed
from the general cemetery.
281
00:24:45,911 --> 00:24:48,470
There has been some contention
from the Palmer family
282
00:24:48,471 --> 00:24:52,073
about the accuracy
of the original body identification.
283
00:24:52,074 --> 00:24:56,802
June and Russell Palmer were adamant
that DNA testing be carried out.
284
00:24:56,954 --> 00:25:00,196
They just couldn't be sure that the body
they identified was indeed Alice.
285
00:25:00,324 --> 00:25:01,551
And today, almost...
286
00:25:01,552 --> 00:25:06,186
Alice's body was exhumed in the presence
of the funeral director, Dr. Slatter,
287
00:25:06,187 --> 00:25:09,492
and there was a representative
from the coroner's office also.
288
00:25:09,493 --> 00:25:12,295
And it was then transported
to Ararat Base Hospital
289
00:25:12,296 --> 00:25:14,927
where they took the DNA samples.
290
00:25:14,928 --> 00:25:18,417
And she stayed there
until the results came back.
291
00:25:22,212 --> 00:25:28,128
A few days later we received a copy
of the coroner's preliminary report,
292
00:25:28,718 --> 00:25:34,167
and Alice's identity was confirmed
by the DNA sample match.
293
00:25:36,392 --> 00:25:40,623
It was only after they'd confirmed
that it was Alice's body
294
00:25:40,624 --> 00:25:46,077
that I realized how much that I'd invested
in the possibility of it not being her.
295
00:25:47,302 --> 00:25:51,362
You know, I can't tell you
how much I wanted there to have been
296
00:25:51,363 --> 00:25:54,921
a terrible mistake,
even if it had been mine.
297
00:25:56,411 --> 00:26:00,539
Really, really wanted there to have been
somebody else's kid in that dam.
298
00:26:00,540 --> 00:26:03,139
A runaway, a murder victim.
299
00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:06,879
Just anybody else's,
just as long as it wasn't my kid.
300
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,536
Just as long as it wasn't Alice.
301
00:26:27,842 --> 00:26:29,456
Yes, it is.
302
00:26:31,344 --> 00:26:32,856
Stop it.
303
00:26:42,222 --> 00:26:43,962
Oh, my God.
304
00:26:52,865 --> 00:26:56,551
Alice was reburied two days later,
on the 7th of June.
305
00:26:58,737 --> 00:27:03,981
But the question remained,
who or what was in those photos?
306
00:27:25,897 --> 00:27:29,195
Well, I continued to hear things, and.. .
307
00:27:29,196 --> 00:27:32,201
- What did you hear?
- I was hearing noises. Sort of.. .
308
00:27:32,202 --> 00:27:35,362
They didn't really relent.
I kept hearing noises in the hallway.
309
00:27:35,363 --> 00:27:38,271
So, I thought,
"Well, I'll just set up a camera
310
00:27:38,272 --> 00:27:42,528
"to see if I see anything,
see something".
311
00:28:07,069 --> 00:28:13,883
The first night I looked back
and there was footage of a figure
312
00:28:14,610 --> 00:28:20,890
moving from the lounge room
across the hallway to the front door.
313
00:28:32,727 --> 00:28:35,559
You're on Voice FM, 8/02.
314
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,532
I'm Helen Bath and we're taking calls
with psychic consultant, Ray Kemeney.
315
00:28:40,533 --> 00:28:42,592
Next we have Nadia on the line, Ray.
316
00:28:42,593 --> 00:28:45,833
Hi, Nadia, how are you?
What can I do for you?
317
00:28:45,834 --> 00:28:49,000
My question is about career,
and I've also got a question about family.
318
00:28:49,001 --> 00:28:54,570
It was around about that time I decided
to seek out the advice of Ray Kemeney.
319
00:28:54,571 --> 00:28:58,083
I had heard Ray on the radio
over the years,
320
00:28:58,084 --> 00:29:02,713
and opinion was quite divided,
some thought he was the real deal,
321
00:29:02,714 --> 00:29:04,689
others were unconvinced.
322
00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:08,569
- Next we have Annie on the line.
- Hi, Annie, how are you?
323
00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:11,228
I'm fine, thanks, Ray.
Thank you for taking my call.
324
00:29:11,229 --> 00:29:14,038
My pleasure. What can I do for you?
325
00:29:14,634 --> 00:29:17,512
I just wanted a general reading.
326
00:29:18,137 --> 00:29:20,685
General not just medical.
327
00:29:21,074 --> 00:29:22,938
I'm Hungarian by birth.
328
00:29:22,939 --> 00:29:25,284
My parents came out here
when I was quite young.
329
00:29:26,446 --> 00:29:30,040
I've got a 15-year-old daughter who lives
with her mother in South Australia.
330
00:29:30,041 --> 00:29:34,415
My Christian name is actually Schultz,
but I changed it to Ray.
331
00:29:34,416 --> 00:29:38,002
I think it's a more trustworthy name
for a psychic.
332
00:29:39,859 --> 00:29:42,542
Australia's wog psychic of choice.
333
00:29:45,630 --> 00:29:47,028
Most of what I do is...
334
00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:50,295
When I'm dealing with the sick
or the dying,
335
00:29:50,296 --> 00:29:53,451
which I guess probably fits about a third
of my clients,
336
00:29:54,272 --> 00:29:57,604
is to allow them the possibility
that death is not the bitter end,
337
00:29:57,605 --> 00:30:01,735
that it's not the full stop.
338
00:30:01,736 --> 00:30:03,779
Which is a consolation
that I'm quite happy to give them
339
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:08,694
considering the fact that what happens
after death is up for grabs anyway.
340
00:30:09,220 --> 00:30:14,430
There's somebody very close to you,
someone you haven't seen for a while,
341
00:30:15,426 --> 00:30:18,656
someone who is going
to come back into your life.
342
00:30:18,657 --> 00:30:21,607
Someone who'll be of great comfort to you.
343
00:30:23,567 --> 00:30:25,796
Anyone that fits that bill?
344
00:30:25,797 --> 00:30:28,030
Yeah, I can think of someone.
345
00:30:28,031 --> 00:30:30,799
Look, I won't lie to you, Annie,
I can see obstacles ahead of you...
346
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,899
but I think that this person
who is coming back to you...
347
00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:38,391
is gonna make a great difference
and will be of great solace to you.
348
00:30:39,716 --> 00:30:41,365
Thanks, Ray.
349
00:30:42,252 --> 00:30:44,026
See you, Annie.
350
00:30:59,902 --> 00:31:01,894
Where I come from,
when someone dies,
351
00:31:01,895 --> 00:31:03,894
they block out all the mirrors
in the house...
352
00:31:03,895 --> 00:31:07,419
to stop the... the dead
from finding their way back.
353
00:31:08,243 --> 00:31:11,121
It's things like that,
that make a difference.
354
00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:20,999
Hi, Annie. I'm Ray.
355
00:31:33,067 --> 00:31:35,147
You're gonna die, Annie.
356
00:31:36,536 --> 00:31:39,778
It's just the start
of something else, all right?
357
00:31:40,907 --> 00:31:43,921
- Thank you.
- It's all right.
358
00:31:44,811 --> 00:31:46,153
Okay.
359
00:31:50,217 --> 00:31:53,447
I liked Ray immediately, but
he wasn't what I expected.
360
00:31:53,448 --> 00:31:58,386
I don't know what I really did expect,
but there was nothing kinda spooky...
361
00:31:58,387 --> 00:32:00,132
or fake about him.
362
00:32:10,903 --> 00:32:13,212
Okay. Are we ready?
363
00:32:16,542 --> 00:32:17,940
I want you to close your eyes.. .
364
00:32:17,941 --> 00:32:20,273
I usually video tape my sessions...
365
00:32:20,274 --> 00:32:23,711
so that they can be reviewed later
by the clients,
366
00:32:23,712 --> 00:32:28,024
especially when there's elements
of trance or hypnotism involved.
367
00:32:28,486 --> 00:32:31,420
I keep one copy for myself,
one copy for them.
368
00:32:31,421 --> 00:32:33,263
Better to be safe than sorry.
369
00:32:33,691 --> 00:32:36,842
Okay, so you're standing
outside your house.
370
00:32:37,328 --> 00:32:39,375
Tell me what you see.
371
00:32:44,035 --> 00:32:45,616
My house.
372
00:32:46,104 --> 00:32:50,836
It's a white house.
I'm walking towards the front door.
373
00:32:50,837 --> 00:32:51,966
Okay.
374
00:32:51,967 --> 00:32:55,101
Now, I want you
to go inside the house.
375
00:32:55,102 --> 00:32:57,236
I want you to move slowly
through the house,
376
00:32:57,237 --> 00:32:59,964
I want you to describe what you see,
377
00:33:01,852 --> 00:33:04,935
where you are,
just give me a guided tour.
378
00:33:16,832 --> 00:33:20,824
Okay,
I'm walking down the hallway...
379
00:33:20,825 --> 00:33:22,984
towards Alice's room.
380
00:33:28,144 --> 00:33:29,610
What's there?
381
00:33:29,611 --> 00:33:33,592
I can see Alice's shoes
outside her room.
382
00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:39,197
And what does that mean
for you? June?
383
00:33:42,625 --> 00:33:46,310
She always used to leave her sneakers
outside her room.
384
00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:52,194
So, I want you to go
inside her room now,
385
00:33:52,195 --> 00:33:54,883
open the door and just move inside.
386
00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:59,846
You feel safe enough
to go into Alice's room?
387
00:34:01,875 --> 00:34:04,559
- Okay.
- Now open the door.
388
00:34:08,549 --> 00:34:10,824
I'm going inside her room.
389
00:34:25,132 --> 00:34:27,816
You can see something, can't you?
390
00:34:28,702 --> 00:34:31,078
Tell me what you see, June.
391
00:34:32,705 --> 00:34:34,183
She's.. .
392
00:34:36,142 --> 00:34:40,829
Alice is sitting in the wicker chair
at the end of her bed.
393
00:34:49,888 --> 00:34:51,628
She looks sad.
394
00:34:57,129 --> 00:34:59,961
I first met Ray when June
brought him home for dinner...
395
00:34:59,962 --> 00:35:02,842
the night of her first consultation.
396
00:35:03,869 --> 00:35:05,859
And, yeah,
I'm completely indifferent to psychics,
397
00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:08,734
I don't really have a position
on them at all.
398
00:35:08,735 --> 00:35:11,900
I don't really want them
to come round for dinner, mind you,
399
00:35:11,901 --> 00:35:14,354
but, you know,
I didn't want to upset June either.
400
00:35:16,148 --> 00:35:19,138
He was a pleasant sort of a bloke,
he wasn't ooky-spooky at all.
401
00:35:19,139 --> 00:35:21,696
And I was on my best behavior.
402
00:35:22,553 --> 00:35:25,385
A few days later,
maybe a week later,
403
00:35:25,386 --> 00:35:29,323
I suggested to the family
that we hold a s�ance.
404
00:35:29,324 --> 00:35:33,977
June was really keen, but I remember
Russell just flat out refused.
405
00:35:34,732 --> 00:35:37,266
I think Mathew finally
talked his dad around.
406
00:35:37,267 --> 00:35:41,317
Mathew, how did you feel about having
a s�ance held in your house?
407
00:35:43,373 --> 00:35:48,674
At the time I was actually
kind of interested, sort of curious.
408
00:35:48,675 --> 00:35:52,726
I don't think Dad was thrilled
about the idea.
409
00:35:53,049 --> 00:35:57,702
But, yeah, I thought
it would be interesting.
410
00:35:58,054 --> 00:36:00,419
And I suggested we film it,
411
00:36:00,420 --> 00:36:03,856
and I recorded it with just
our video camera,
412
00:36:03,857 --> 00:36:05,667
which is the PC9.
413
00:36:09,131 --> 00:36:12,214
I'm getting a strong presence
in the room.
414
00:36:12,768 --> 00:36:14,645
In the house.
415
00:36:17,606 --> 00:36:20,972
I think we all thought
that the s�ance was a failure.
416
00:36:20,973 --> 00:36:25,978
Ray didn't really come up with anything,
like, with any signs or anything,
417
00:36:25,979 --> 00:36:30,107
so, after about an hour or so,
we called it quits,
418
00:36:30,108 --> 00:36:32,413
and it wasn't until the next day...
419
00:36:32,414 --> 00:36:37,423
that Mathew was reviewing
the footage...
420
00:36:37,424 --> 00:36:40,370
that there was an image of Alice.
421
00:36:40,995 --> 00:36:43,543
Make your presence known to us.
422
00:37:03,650 --> 00:37:07,927
The new footage was completely different
to the hallway footage.
423
00:37:08,822 --> 00:37:13,735
For one, it was significantly
more detailed, so it was less ambiguous.
424
00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:17,160
And it was impossible to dismiss it...
425
00:37:17,161 --> 00:37:23,145
as a coincidence of shadow play
and digital noise.
426
00:37:25,304 --> 00:37:31,151
There was something inexplicable
in our house, that was beyond doubt.
427
00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:39,797
I was concerned. This was pretty
unfamiliar territory for me.
428
00:37:41,453 --> 00:37:44,000
I've never seen a ghost before.
429
00:38:01,572 --> 00:38:06,873
Ray got Mathew to help him set up
3 permanent cameras inside the house...
430
00:38:06,874 --> 00:38:11,392
recording in time-lapse configurations
24 hours a day.
431
00:38:13,083 --> 00:38:18,669
There'd been a lot of speculation about
Ray and what he was doing there.
432
00:38:19,256 --> 00:38:21,086
I mean, when people don't know...
433
00:38:21,087 --> 00:38:25,401
that, of course, leads to a lot of talk
and a lot of speculation.
434
00:38:25,696 --> 00:38:28,789
I had heard rumors throughout July
of video images...
435
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:32,277
purporting to be of an apparition
in the house.
436
00:38:32,902 --> 00:38:36,644
But I must say I was skeptical
as to their legitimacy.
437
00:38:37,340 --> 00:38:41,686
- And your view on Ray?
- Also very skeptical.
438
00:38:42,478 --> 00:38:44,775
I think they had me as some kind of
Rasputin figure...
439
00:38:44,776 --> 00:38:47,406
mesmerizing the Palmers,
stealing their money,
440
00:38:47,407 --> 00:38:49,666
doctoring the photos of Alice.
441
00:38:52,921 --> 00:38:56,607
Mathew, in particular,
seemed to be really struggling.
442
00:39:02,464 --> 00:39:06,957
I thought I might be able to help this boy
by being there, you know.
443
00:39:06,958 --> 00:39:09,468
- Good one. Beautiful.
- Well done.
444
00:39:09,469 --> 00:39:12,840
That said,
my chief motivation was professional.
445
00:39:12,841 --> 00:39:14,205
Something was happening inside
that house...
446
00:39:14,206 --> 00:39:16,892
and I wanted to find out what it was.
447
00:40:12,164 --> 00:40:15,008
What was your reaction
to these images?
448
00:40:16,868 --> 00:40:19,586
We were completely
gobsmacked by them.
449
00:40:21,073 --> 00:40:23,905
But before we had time to, you know,
take in what that meant...
450
00:40:23,906 --> 00:40:26,283
the Withers' video came out.
451
00:40:27,144 --> 00:40:28,440
- Go on.
- Is it good?
452
00:40:28,441 --> 00:40:30,696
- Yeah, it's great.
- Can I have a look?
453
00:40:31,382 --> 00:40:32,746
Yeah, be careful.
454
00:40:32,747 --> 00:40:36,946
Cathy and Doug Withers
were at the dam on April the 3rd,
455
00:40:36,947 --> 00:40:39,989
the same day that the Bob Smeet
photo was taken.
456
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:43,003
- Be careful.
- What do you think I'm going to do?
457
00:40:43,594 --> 00:40:49,214
- Give it back. Be careful.
- It's safe in my hands, babe.
458
00:40:52,269 --> 00:40:55,716
It was a couple of months later,
the end of July,
459
00:40:57,073 --> 00:41:02,476
when we were looking at our footage
that we'd shot down at the dam...
460
00:41:02,477 --> 00:41:05,138
and came across...
461
00:41:05,139 --> 00:41:10,266
A figure in the background,
which we identified as Bob Smeet,
462
00:41:11,121 --> 00:41:13,553
which interested us 'cause there's...
463
00:41:13,554 --> 00:41:17,614
Yeah, clearly, we didn't... We sorta went,
"It was the same day he was there...
464
00:41:17,615 --> 00:41:20,991
"when he captured the image
that people have been talking about".
465
00:41:20,992 --> 00:41:24,122
So, then we went
through all our footage...
466
00:41:24,123 --> 00:41:27,292
to see if we perhaps
might have captured that figure as well.
467
00:41:27,293 --> 00:41:30,986
- Maybe the camera had seen what Bob saw.
- Yeah. Yeah.
468
00:41:31,707 --> 00:41:34,937
And we did find a figure
in the background
469
00:41:34,938 --> 00:41:38,968
like the image that had been
described in his picture.
470
00:41:38,969 --> 00:41:40,843
And then we looked more closely...
471
00:41:40,844 --> 00:41:46,694
- and Doug zoomed in on it.
- Yeah, I got right in on the computer.
472
00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:50,981
And from what, you know, could
have looked like a female figure...
473
00:41:50,982 --> 00:41:53,753
from a long way away,
474
00:41:53,754 --> 00:41:55,658
up close and tight,
475
00:41:55,659 --> 00:42:00,631
you could see that it definitely
was neither female nor Alice.
476
00:42:00,632 --> 00:42:02,440
It was Mathew.
477
00:42:04,838 --> 00:42:07,305
- Do you guys believe in ghosts?
- No.
478
00:42:07,306 --> 00:42:09,524
- No. No.
- No.
479
00:42:11,878 --> 00:42:15,313
Well, this is where I was
when the Bob Smeet photo was taken.
480
00:42:15,314 --> 00:42:20,546
I was wearing Alice's jacket, and I
looked up and I saw a man on the hill,
481
00:42:20,547 --> 00:42:22,849
who turned out to be Bob Smeet.
482
00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:26,734
And I didn't wanna be in a photo.
483
00:42:28,161 --> 00:42:31,323
So, I walked off through the bush.
484
00:42:31,324 --> 00:42:35,765
What I didn't see was there was also
a couple over there filming,
485
00:42:35,766 --> 00:42:37,677
who turned out to be the Withers.
486
00:42:41,874 --> 00:42:44,865
When the Withers' thing came out,
Dad came to me...
487
00:42:44,866 --> 00:42:48,310
and asked me if I had been involved
in anything else.
488
00:42:48,311 --> 00:42:52,190
And I didn't wanna lie to him,
so I told him.
489
00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,721
And I explained to Dad
that I was responsible...
490
00:43:02,722 --> 00:43:04,886
for the image of Alice
in the hallway...
491
00:43:04,887 --> 00:43:10,491
and the bedroom, and that I created
the April 28th backyard photo...
492
00:43:10,492 --> 00:43:12,615
and the s�ance image.
493
00:43:12,937 --> 00:43:14,767
I just told him what I'd done.
494
00:43:14,768 --> 00:43:16,100
Okay, so.. .
495
00:43:16,101 --> 00:43:19,939
I got two photos,
a photo of Alice and the backyard...
496
00:43:19,940 --> 00:43:23,240
and composited the images.
497
00:43:23,241 --> 00:43:25,473
That's a photo that I took of Alice.
498
00:43:25,474 --> 00:43:27,778
Mum kept talking about...
499
00:43:27,779 --> 00:43:29,875
She was always talking
about getting Alice exhumed,
500
00:43:29,876 --> 00:43:34,651
and she was really keen on this idea
that Dad had misidentified her body.
501
00:43:34,652 --> 00:43:37,920
And so I knew that without more
evidence it wasn't going to happen,
502
00:43:37,921 --> 00:43:40,769
so I made the photograph.
503
00:43:45,067 --> 00:43:47,717
I just used an old video of Alice...
504
00:43:49,272 --> 00:43:53,002
and I played that on the TV.
505
00:43:53,003 --> 00:43:54,905
I had the TV
up on the book case...
506
00:43:54,906 --> 00:43:57,843
and it was as simple
as rotating the mirror...
507
00:43:57,844 --> 00:44:01,440
so that the reflection
of the TV came up in it.
508
00:44:01,441 --> 00:44:04,041
And obviously
the mirror's quite small,
509
00:44:04,042 --> 00:44:05,916
so it cropped out
the edges of the television...
510
00:44:05,917 --> 00:44:08,478
and then, yeah, I just filmed that.
511
00:44:08,479 --> 00:44:10,581
Same with the kitchen
and the bedroom.
512
00:44:10,582 --> 00:44:15,369
What you see basically
is Alice on the television in the mirror.
513
00:44:24,873 --> 00:44:28,114
Like, it wasn't about trying
to trick people.
514
00:44:29,310 --> 00:44:32,574
I guess it was like something
was better than nothing.
515
00:44:32,575 --> 00:44:36,889
Do you think that what you did
ultimately made it worse for June?
516
00:44:43,390 --> 00:44:45,164
I think that.. .
517
00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:50,725
Yeah. Yeah, I probably did make it
harder for her.
518
00:44:50,726 --> 00:44:53,778
But, I mean, that wasn't my intention.
519
00:44:56,437 --> 00:45:01,714
I'm not quite so sure
about his reasons.
520
00:45:02,442 --> 00:45:04,853
I don't know that I...
521
00:45:06,312 --> 00:45:07,893
totally...
522
00:45:11,618 --> 00:45:14,949
I don't want to say
I don't totally believe what he said,
523
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:19,138
but I'm just not convinced...
524
00:45:19,591 --> 00:45:22,332
that he really knows why he did it.
525
00:45:28,834 --> 00:45:31,734
When it all came out, people wanted
to do stories and books...
526
00:45:31,735 --> 00:45:35,955
and women's magazines,
the whole lot just went pear-shaped.
527
00:45:37,843 --> 00:45:39,935
Look, we just didn't know
how to handle it.
528
00:45:39,936 --> 00:45:44,448
I mean, you know, we had to protect
Matty, we had to protect ourselves,
529
00:45:44,449 --> 00:45:47,244
we had to protect Ali's memory.
530
00:45:47,245 --> 00:45:50,081
And we just didn't have
any experience...
531
00:45:50,082 --> 00:45:54,351
of dealing with all this interest in
something that was incredibly personal...
532
00:45:54,352 --> 00:45:57,643
that people wanted to make
incredibly public.
533
00:45:58,229 --> 00:46:01,788
I mean, the Palmers
weren't coping well at all at that point.
534
00:46:01,789 --> 00:46:05,607
And things were very bad,
they were doing it tough.
535
00:46:07,604 --> 00:46:10,823
This was like the end of hope
for all of us,
536
00:46:11,174 --> 00:46:13,392
but especially for June.
537
00:46:14,778 --> 00:46:17,929
She just really wasn't ready
to let Ali go.
538
00:46:21,418 --> 00:46:25,104
She just needed to hang on to her
a little bit longer.
539
00:46:26,489 --> 00:46:31,608
And I don't think she would admit it,
but she was devastated.
540
00:46:42,638 --> 00:46:44,229
She's an interesting girl.
541
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:48,185
She seemed
to not get on with June so well.
542
00:46:48,343 --> 00:46:50,036
I thought they actually were
quite alike.
543
00:46:50,037 --> 00:46:53,330
It was interesting that the two of them
might not get on so well.
544
00:46:56,217 --> 00:46:58,810
They always seemed
very much alike...
545
00:46:58,811 --> 00:47:03,766
and you could see
that Alice took a lot after June.
546
00:47:04,792 --> 00:47:09,308
But, also, other things had become clear
as well after Alice's death.
547
00:47:09,330 --> 00:47:12,423
That perhaps a bit of the sense
of the private
548
00:47:12,424 --> 00:47:15,617
that they both shared.
549
00:47:16,037 --> 00:47:17,914
Thanks for that.
550
00:47:18,306 --> 00:47:21,922
June was... Well, still is...
551
00:47:22,576 --> 00:47:24,372
She keeps to herself a lot,
552
00:47:24,373 --> 00:47:28,994
and it became clear that
that was happening with Alice, too.
553
00:47:30,417 --> 00:47:31,678
They had the sense of privacy.
554
00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:34,185
The sense that there is
their own private life...
555
00:47:34,186 --> 00:47:39,770
that they will either choose to share
or to not share, I guess.
556
00:47:45,097 --> 00:47:49,658
It's wonderful when your children come
and that new expression that you have.
557
00:47:49,659 --> 00:47:53,670
But as a mother,
you've still always got doubts...
558
00:47:53,671 --> 00:47:58,517
that you're not doing enough
or you're not doing the right thing.
559
00:48:00,946 --> 00:48:04,632
I partly blame myself,
that's come from me.
560
00:48:05,384 --> 00:48:07,829
Maybe it came from my mother.
561
00:48:09,789 --> 00:48:12,063
I've never been able to...
562
00:48:14,626 --> 00:48:18,812
I've never been able
to give myself over wholly to...
563
00:48:19,631 --> 00:48:21,109
To June.
564
00:48:22,767 --> 00:48:25,986
I feel June is a little like that, too,
565
00:48:26,737 --> 00:48:30,320
that she couldn't give herself wholly
to Alice.
566
00:48:38,282 --> 00:48:41,626
I hope that Alice did know
how much I loved her.
567
00:48:42,486 --> 00:48:46,297
I guess I held something back a little
as she grew older.
568
00:48:48,492 --> 00:48:52,542
That would be the saddest thing,
to think she might not know.
569
00:49:01,737 --> 00:49:05,194
Ray suggested
that Mathew accompany him...
570
00:49:05,195 --> 00:49:09,266
on one of his country Victorian tours,
571
00:49:09,267 --> 00:49:11,574
where he was doing consultations,
572
00:49:11,575 --> 00:49:14,694
and Mathew jumped at the chance.
573
00:49:16,117 --> 00:49:20,360
- Breakfast. Your shout, I think.
- No, I think it's your shout.
574
00:49:36,071 --> 00:49:41,554
I think I realized when I was away
how much I missed Alice...
575
00:49:42,344 --> 00:49:46,791
and that I was never going to be able
to speak to her again.
576
00:49:47,848 --> 00:49:52,409
I guess that's something that all
of Ray's clients are coming to terms with.
577
00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:56,854
You know, they want to talk to someone
or make contact with someone they've lost,
578
00:49:56,855 --> 00:50:00,007
and so did I.
579
00:50:01,095 --> 00:50:05,747
So, I was sort of one of Ray's clients
in a way as well.
580
00:50:11,137 --> 00:50:12,194
- No.
- Can I chuck it at you?
581
00:50:12,195 --> 00:50:14,171
- No.
- Let's see what happens.
582
00:50:14,172 --> 00:50:15,228
Well, what do you think is gonna happen?
583
00:50:15,229 --> 00:50:17,275
It's gonna hit me
and then I'm gonna get angry.
584
00:50:17,276 --> 00:50:19,618
That's what's gonna happen. No!
585
00:50:20,513 --> 00:50:22,287
Watch yourself.
586
00:50:22,515 --> 00:50:24,995
What are you doing in my room?
587
00:50:25,251 --> 00:50:26,729
I don't know.
588
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,478
Get out!
589
00:50:51,108 --> 00:50:53,075
When me and Ray went on the tour,
590
00:50:53,076 --> 00:50:57,296
we left the two rented cameras
where they were, in the hallway.
591
00:50:57,949 --> 00:51:01,396
I was sure there was still something
in the house.
592
00:51:02,353 --> 00:51:04,616
And obviously,
'cause we were away for the 3 days,
593
00:51:04,617 --> 00:51:07,986
you know,
we couldn't change the tapes or anything.
594
00:51:07,987 --> 00:51:12,893
So, we knew we were probably gonna get
about, like, a day and a half of footage.
595
00:51:12,894 --> 00:51:15,182
But we left them running...
596
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:19,336
and got back on August 22nd,
597
00:51:19,337 --> 00:51:22,522
at which point we checked the tapes.
598
00:51:47,296 --> 00:51:51,755
Only Russell and I were in the house
when these images were recorded,
599
00:51:51,756 --> 00:51:55,281
Mathew couldn't have had anything
to do with them.
600
00:51:56,672 --> 00:52:00,619
They seemed to prove
that there was a ghost in our house.
601
00:52:01,577 --> 00:52:03,317
Alice's ghost.
602
00:52:11,519 --> 00:52:13,760
Do you believe in ghosts?
603
00:52:14,922 --> 00:52:16,696
Didn't used to,
604
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,711
but it's a hard thing to prove
or disprove.
605
00:52:27,434 --> 00:52:29,015
I think.. .
606
00:52:30,404 --> 00:52:33,555
Yeah, sometimes I think
maybe they do exist.
607
00:52:34,808 --> 00:52:37,185
There are ghosts everywhere.
608
00:52:37,377 --> 00:52:39,356
It's a scary world.
609
00:52:40,580 --> 00:52:41,807
I don't know why it's important.
610
00:52:41,808 --> 00:52:45,146
It's like how it helps people, like,
dealing with her loss,
611
00:52:45,147 --> 00:52:48,631
like making up stories about ghosts
or whatever.
612
00:52:53,393 --> 00:52:55,986
It threw a question mark
over everything.
613
00:52:55,987 --> 00:52:59,997
I went back and reviewed all the footage
that had come before,
614
00:52:59,998 --> 00:53:04,275
all the material taken inside the house
following Alice's death.
615
00:53:10,009 --> 00:53:14,741
It was while I was looking at Mathew's
June 13th hallway material again,
616
00:53:14,742 --> 00:53:17,998
that I noticed something
in the image.
617
00:53:18,917 --> 00:53:20,076
There was a second figure,
618
00:53:20,077 --> 00:53:23,142
not Mathew in the hallway
but someone else,
619
00:53:23,143 --> 00:53:26,099
squatting in the dark in Alice's room.
620
00:53:26,858 --> 00:53:28,973
At first I thought it was Alice.
621
00:53:30,628 --> 00:53:35,281
Then I realized it was our neighbor,
Brett Toohey.
622
00:53:43,408 --> 00:53:47,638
What was this man doing in my house,
in my daughter's room...
623
00:53:47,639 --> 00:53:50,555
more than six months after her death?
624
00:53:57,020 --> 00:54:01,764
When I found Alice's safe,
I realized exactly why he'd been there.
625
00:54:05,761 --> 00:54:08,138
He was looking for the tape.
626
00:54:10,867 --> 00:54:12,448
That's it.
627
00:54:39,661 --> 00:54:42,094
But it was such a.. .
It wasn't a very nice day.
628
00:54:42,095 --> 00:54:43,745
Yes.
629
00:54:44,199 --> 00:54:46,166
- You did a smoke ring.
- Yes.
630
00:54:46,167 --> 00:54:48,929
You two getting nice and cozy
without me.
631
00:54:48,930 --> 00:54:53,029
Alice began babysitting
for the Tooheys in 2002,
632
00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:56,371
and she continued
for the next two and a half years.
633
00:54:56,372 --> 00:54:59,958
The Tooheys' two boys
were five and nine years old.
634
00:55:02,249 --> 00:55:07,334
I literally just couldn't believe my eyes.
635
00:55:11,625 --> 00:55:14,343
It just made me feel so sad.
636
00:55:20,568 --> 00:55:24,263
As far as I'm concerned,
the Tooheys were complicit in Ali's death.
637
00:55:24,264 --> 00:55:27,737
I believe that if it hadn't been for them,
she would have reached out to us.
638
00:55:27,738 --> 00:55:30,206
She wouldn't have felt guilty.
639
00:55:30,207 --> 00:55:33,689
She wouldn't have felt the burden
of that secret.
640
00:55:34,380 --> 00:55:36,962
She wouldn't have been isolated.
641
00:55:40,219 --> 00:55:43,029
How do you feel towards Brett now?
642
00:55:43,455 --> 00:55:47,163
If he was around the corner,
I'd probably throttle him.
643
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:51,517
He seemed like a nice guy.
You know, he was nice.
644
00:55:51,518 --> 00:55:57,547
We'd speak and he was never like,
you know, nasty or anything.
645
00:55:57,703 --> 00:56:01,366
He had a pool at his place
and usually...
646
00:56:01,367 --> 00:56:02,366
We used to swim there
sometimes.
647
00:56:02,367 --> 00:56:03,464
- Yeah.
- During the summer.
648
00:56:03,465 --> 00:56:06,693
So, usually we just go to his place
and have a swim there.
649
00:56:07,813 --> 00:56:09,006
I was really bewildered...
650
00:56:09,007 --> 00:56:11,605
- about, you know, what happened.
- Yeah.
651
00:56:11,606 --> 00:56:14,013
It took a lot just to realize...
652
00:56:14,014 --> 00:56:17,212
'Cause, you know,
I had no idea that Alice would...
653
00:56:17,213 --> 00:56:18,652
No, be with somebody, I know.
654
00:56:18,653 --> 00:56:20,622
Yeah, it was like a complete surprise.
655
00:56:20,623 --> 00:56:24,592
Like, we just didn't think, you know,
she'd do something like that.
656
00:56:24,593 --> 00:56:26,004
Yeah.
657
00:56:28,865 --> 00:56:31,709
Why do you think Alice had the tape?
658
00:56:33,603 --> 00:56:35,934
Because she didn't want them
to have it.
659
00:56:35,935 --> 00:56:39,419
- Why is that?
- She didn't trust them anymore, I think.
660
00:56:41,344 --> 00:56:44,893
They must've been really desperate
to get that tape.
661
00:56:45,215 --> 00:56:48,764
From the moment
that they'd heard of Alice's death,
662
00:56:49,052 --> 00:56:53,432
they would've been living
in this constant fear of being found out.
663
00:56:56,593 --> 00:57:00,676
I'm glad he couldn't find it.
I'm glad he knows it's not over.
664
00:57:04,667 --> 00:57:07,294
I had a lot of personal dealings
with the Palmers during this time...
665
00:57:07,295 --> 00:57:09,199
as part of the investigating team...
666
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,888
trying to locate
Brett and Marissa Tooheyand family.
667
00:57:13,542 --> 00:57:18,273
And initially we were optimistic
that they would be found...
668
00:57:18,274 --> 00:57:20,359
and charges laid.
669
00:57:20,648 --> 00:57:23,332
But, unfortunately,
the leads that we were working with...
670
00:57:23,851 --> 00:57:27,468
soon dried up,
and so the investigation stalled.
671
00:57:28,456 --> 00:57:32,050
So, the police's advice to us was
that even if the Tooheys were caught,
672
00:57:32,051 --> 00:57:33,854
they would get off
with a suspended sentence...
673
00:57:33,855 --> 00:57:36,725
by claiming that the sex
was consensual,
674
00:57:36,726 --> 00:57:41,212
which was, they claimed, you know,
supported by the video evidence.
675
00:57:41,235 --> 00:57:45,012
Jason, did you know
about Alice's involvement with Brett?
676
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,056
No. No one did.
677
00:57:50,043 --> 00:57:52,022
Obviously I didn't.
678
00:57:52,446 --> 00:57:55,597
We wouldn't be going out if I did.
It was.. . No.
679
00:57:56,850 --> 00:58:00,831
I thought we were...
I thought we were pretty good.
680
00:58:11,931 --> 00:58:15,014
It just left so many
unanswered questions.
681
00:58:15,968 --> 00:58:18,197
Why was she involved with him?
682
00:58:18,198 --> 00:58:21,102
When did the relationship begin?
683
00:58:21,103 --> 00:58:23,948
Was she in love with either of them?
684
00:58:25,745 --> 00:58:27,656
I just don't know.
685
00:58:30,983 --> 00:58:35,397
The Tooheys sold their house
and moved, 6 months after Alice died.
686
00:58:45,096 --> 00:58:47,075
Alice kept secrets.
687
00:58:47,665 --> 00:58:51,578
She kept the fact
she kept secrets a secret.
688
00:58:53,404 --> 00:58:56,201
Which does change the way
that you see somebody, I suppose,
689
00:58:56,202 --> 00:59:00,152
when you realize that they did
hide things from you a bit.
690
00:59:01,345 --> 00:59:05,940
I think I knew one Alice
and maybe her mum knew another,
691
00:59:05,941 --> 00:59:10,032
and there was another one again
that none of us knew maybe.
692
00:59:24,368 --> 00:59:27,699
I found Ray's business card
taped to Alice's diary...
693
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:31,319
on the page marked
12th of July, 2005.
694
00:59:36,612 --> 00:59:38,670
Why have you come to see me, Alice?
695
00:59:38,671 --> 00:59:41,591
Can you interpret dreams?
696
00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:43,331
Sometimes.
697
00:59:43,919 --> 00:59:46,103
How do you feel when you wake up
from these dreams?
698
00:59:51,259 --> 00:59:52,691
They scare me a bit.
699
00:59:52,692 --> 00:59:56,469
Alice came to see me
about five months before she died.
700
00:59:56,932 --> 00:59:58,865
I think she'd heard me on the radio
a few times...
701
00:59:58,866 --> 01:00:01,333
and rang and made an appointment.
702
01:00:01,334 --> 01:00:03,927
Take a deep breath.
Close your eyes.
703
01:00:03,928 --> 01:00:06,438
I want you to imagine
you're standing outside your house.
704
01:00:06,439 --> 01:00:09,318
When you can see that, you tell me.
705
01:00:17,017 --> 01:00:19,098
- Okay?
- Yeah.
706
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,828
All right. Now, I want you to go inside
the front door.
707
01:00:24,859 --> 01:00:28,316
Go into the house.
Tell me what you see, where you are.
708
01:00:28,317 --> 01:00:31,191
Ray, why didn't you tell June
that you'd actually met Alice before?
709
01:00:31,192 --> 01:00:33,857
Okay, I'm in the entrance.. .
710
01:00:33,858 --> 01:00:36,162
Look, I don't think it was a case
of hiding something from them.
711
01:00:36,163 --> 01:00:40,752
It was more that I was honoring
Alice's request for confidentiality.
712
01:00:40,974 --> 01:00:44,421
But it was damned if you do,
damned if you don't, you know.
713
01:00:44,544 --> 01:00:48,570
The living room's just directly ahead.
714
01:00:48,571 --> 01:00:51,081
Then you go to your right...
715
01:00:51,082 --> 01:00:55,894
and my room's in the back part of
the house as you go towards the kitchen.
716
01:00:56,689 --> 01:01:00,033
Do you see anything unusual?
Anything different?
717
01:01:03,028 --> 01:01:04,302
No.
718
01:01:04,630 --> 01:01:08,326
No, we didn't feel
like we could trust Ray anymore.
719
01:01:08,327 --> 01:01:11,891
For whatever reasons he had
of keeping that information to himself,
720
01:01:11,892 --> 01:01:14,848
it still felt like a betrayal.
721
01:01:20,378 --> 01:01:25,178
I wanted to help June and the family
and I think they wanted me to help them.
722
01:01:25,179 --> 01:01:28,764
I wouldn't have been able to do it
if they'd known.
723
01:01:29,554 --> 01:01:33,763
There was a fair bit of resentment.
Mathew wouldn't even speak to me.
724
01:01:33,958 --> 01:01:35,857
But what I think really hurt them
more than anything...
725
01:01:35,858 --> 01:01:41,672
was what they saw as my failure
to see Alice's eminent passing.
726
01:01:42,266 --> 01:01:45,178
Looking back, like,
it's kind of strange
727
01:01:45,303 --> 01:01:50,387
that someone would, you know,
be as close to us as he was...
728
01:01:52,642 --> 01:01:56,328
I think, maybe, he needed us
as much as we needed him.
729
01:02:08,924 --> 01:02:12,302
Alice came to see me
because she was upset.
730
01:02:12,628 --> 01:02:15,540
She was a very troubled person.
731
01:02:17,633 --> 01:02:19,566
"I had a dream last night.
732
01:02:19,567 --> 01:02:24,401
"I was cold and wet.
I felt heavy, like I'd been drugged,
733
01:02:24,402 --> 01:02:28,420
"and when I woke up,
these sensations didn't go.
734
01:02:29,078 --> 01:02:34,823
"I was feeling sick and confused
and I was starting to get scared.
735
01:02:36,218 --> 01:02:38,958
"I needed to see Mum to talk to her.
736
01:02:39,854 --> 01:02:41,514
"I stumbled to her room...
737
01:02:41,515 --> 01:02:44,785
"and as I stood there at the bed,
watching them,
738
01:02:44,786 --> 01:02:48,374
"I was overcome
by this intense sadness.
739
01:02:49,297 --> 01:02:51,242
"Then the sadness turned to fear.
740
01:02:51,766 --> 01:02:54,108
"I just stood there
paralyzed with fear...
741
01:02:54,368 --> 01:02:58,633
"and I realized there was nothing
that they could do for me anymore.
742
01:02:58,634 --> 01:03:01,355
"I've never felt so utterly alone.
743
01:03:01,942 --> 01:03:05,025
"Everything felt wrong. My body,
744
01:03:07,014 --> 01:03:08,878
"the way things looked.
745
01:03:08,879 --> 01:03:12,760
"Then I realized that there was
something wrong with me.
746
01:03:14,688 --> 01:03:18,567
"I started to cry,
standing there at the foot of the bed".
747
01:03:49,921 --> 01:03:53,219
Lake Mungo is in southwestern
New South Wales,
748
01:03:53,220 --> 01:03:57,420
and that was the location of
the school camp that Alice went on...
749
01:03:57,421 --> 01:04:01,181
from August the 2nd
to the 5th in 2005.
750
01:04:04,502 --> 01:04:07,470
When she came home,
she said she'd had a good time.
751
01:04:07,471 --> 01:04:09,199
I do particularly remember it...
752
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:12,765
because she came home
without her mobile phone,
753
01:04:12,766 --> 01:04:15,037
which we'd bought her
a month previously,
754
01:04:15,038 --> 01:04:18,422
and her favorite bracelet and watch.
755
01:04:20,884 --> 01:04:26,128
Yes, other than that, you know,
she didn't really talk about it too much.
756
01:04:27,691 --> 01:04:29,635
Wait, guys!
757
01:04:35,131 --> 01:04:38,827
Well, Kim didn't show me till about a year
after she got back from camp...
758
01:04:38,828 --> 01:04:41,368
the stuff that she'd taken
on her mobile phone.
759
01:04:41,369 --> 01:04:43,746
So, why'd you decide to tell June?
760
01:04:44,741 --> 01:04:47,868
Well, if we didn't tell June,
761
01:04:47,869 --> 01:04:49,808
then it would be
like we were hiding something.
762
01:04:49,809 --> 01:04:53,360
So, I don't know why...
763
01:04:54,851 --> 01:04:58,400
I don't know why, but why not?
764
01:04:58,454 --> 01:05:00,478
Smile for me!
765
01:05:00,479 --> 01:05:03,933
- Smile.
- They're a little bit tipsy, that's all.
766
01:05:04,526 --> 01:05:09,804
Jason told us about the phone footage
that the girls had taken at Lake Mungo.
767
01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:20,470
The other girls
were looking so happy...
768
01:05:20,471 --> 01:05:24,135
and she looked quite forlorn.
769
01:05:24,136 --> 01:05:29,125
I was worried. I became convinced
that something had happened to her.
770
01:05:35,055 --> 01:05:37,352
So, just get a little bit.
ust some of it.
771
01:05:37,353 --> 01:05:40,654
Kate's phone footage
was taken later that night...
772
01:05:40,655 --> 01:05:43,412
once the girls had spread out
over the lunettes.
773
01:05:43,464 --> 01:05:46,762
- anywhere.
- I think that we need to get a photo.
774
01:05:46,763 --> 01:05:51,281
Like Africa. Like the desert.
775
01:05:51,704 --> 01:05:55,264
There was an image of Alice,
very hard to decipher,
776
01:05:55,265 --> 01:05:58,754
in the bottom of the frame
kneeling under a tree.
777
01:06:00,780 --> 01:06:02,713
It was only after viewing the clip
several times...
778
01:06:02,714 --> 01:06:05,557
that we realized
what she was doing.
779
01:06:06,084 --> 01:06:08,359
She was burying something.
780
01:06:11,456 --> 01:06:15,186
I mean, did you know what had
happened that night with Alice?
781
01:06:15,187 --> 01:06:16,534
No.
782
01:06:18,130 --> 01:06:20,405
I knew she'd lost her phone.
783
01:06:21,533 --> 01:06:25,764
I knew she was upset
because that was pretty obvious.
784
01:06:25,765 --> 01:06:27,715
But I didn't know why
she was upset.
785
01:06:29,508 --> 01:06:33,238
She didn't say that she'd seen anything,
she didn't really say anything to me.
786
01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:37,726
I didn't really... perhaps,
take it that seriously at the time.
787
01:06:38,249 --> 01:06:40,211
You know, it was like context.
788
01:06:40,212 --> 01:06:42,398
You know, we were just having
a good time...
789
01:06:42,399 --> 01:06:44,668
and I just thought
she'd gotten a bit upset.
790
01:06:56,166 --> 01:06:58,407
It started simply enough.
791
01:06:59,135 --> 01:07:01,534
Alice left the group...
792
01:07:01,535 --> 01:07:05,416
and started walking off by herself.
793
01:07:07,110 --> 01:07:10,420
But it was... Obviously,
something was distressing her.
794
01:07:12,148 --> 01:07:15,390
And we wanted to try and find out
what it was.
795
01:07:31,967 --> 01:07:35,902
We understood from the phone video
that she'd buried something.
796
01:07:35,903 --> 01:07:38,234
We had an idea
where the tree was...
797
01:07:38,235 --> 01:07:42,254
because of what we could see
from the video.
798
01:07:44,112 --> 01:07:46,238
We didn't really want to go down
during the day time...
799
01:07:46,239 --> 01:07:49,874
because, you know,
we didn't want to be digging,
800
01:07:49,875 --> 01:07:52,431
you know, where tourists were.
801
01:07:54,522 --> 01:07:56,967
So, we decided to go at night.
802
01:08:14,075 --> 01:08:18,260
June and I started digging
and after a bit,
803
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,679
June said she'd found something
and she pulled out a plastic bag.
804
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:29,346
And inside the plastic bag
there was Ali's favorite necklace,
805
01:08:29,347 --> 01:08:32,300
her ring, her watch,
her mobile phone.
806
01:08:33,492 --> 01:08:36,233
Her most precious things...
807
01:08:36,862 --> 01:08:39,637
buried out here on a school camp,
808
01:08:39,832 --> 01:08:42,050
and we didn't know why she did that.
809
01:08:42,902 --> 01:08:45,199
I mean, we knew from the video
that she'd buried something,
810
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,046
but we didn't know what it was.
811
01:08:50,977 --> 01:08:52,751
It's low on battery.
812
01:09:11,730 --> 01:09:13,948
Are you scared of dying?
813
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:19,813
Yeah, of course I'm scared of dying.
Isn't everyone scared of dying?
814
01:09:25,509 --> 01:09:29,957
Would you like to tell me a little bit
about what happens in these dreams?
815
01:09:31,815 --> 01:09:35,967
I feel like something bad
is gonna happen to me.
816
01:09:36,754 --> 01:09:39,700
I feel like something bad
has happened.
817
01:09:40,224 --> 01:09:43,466
It hasn't reached me yet,
but it's on its way.
818
01:09:46,330 --> 01:09:48,480
And it's getting closer.
819
01:09:49,833 --> 01:09:51,799
And I don't feel ready.
820
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,349
I feel like I can't do anything.
821
01:10:08,683 --> 01:10:10,479
At some point,
822
01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:15,171
this figure came towards her
from out of the darkness.
823
01:10:15,857 --> 01:10:19,019
I recognized the face
as soon as I saw it on the phone video.
824
01:10:19,020 --> 01:10:24,441
It was the same face of the body
that I had identified at the dam.
825
01:10:25,567 --> 01:10:28,650
It was Ali's body and Ali's face.
826
01:10:36,278 --> 01:10:41,362
There is absolutely
no rational explanation...
827
01:10:41,749 --> 01:10:46,402
for what she saw on that phone.
828
01:11:03,770 --> 01:11:05,954
Stay far away from me.
829
01:11:24,424 --> 01:11:27,870
- Oh, my God, they're coming.
- Stay away!
830
01:11:44,108 --> 01:11:49,762
I am convinced
that Alice knew she was going to die.
831
01:11:50,114 --> 01:11:51,137
I'm convinced of that.
832
01:11:51,138 --> 01:11:53,831
Bundle up, bundle up, bundle up.
833
01:11:54,619 --> 01:11:58,965
I think the figure at Lake Mungo
was an omen for her.
834
01:11:59,390 --> 01:12:04,224
The burial of her possessions
was symbolic,
835
01:12:04,225 --> 01:12:06,137
it was a ritual.
836
01:12:09,667 --> 01:12:13,466
No, I was never convinced
that Ali believed she was gonna die.
837
01:12:13,467 --> 01:12:17,336
You know, she had morbid thoughts, sure.
I mean, who doesn't?
838
01:12:17,337 --> 01:12:21,957
And she had nightmares that upset her,
and enough to consult Ray.
839
01:12:26,216 --> 01:12:27,978
I don't know
that anybody's really convinced...
840
01:12:27,979 --> 01:12:30,166
that they're gonna die.
841
01:12:33,756 --> 01:12:35,222
And what about the image
at Lake Mungo?
842
01:12:35,223 --> 01:12:38,555
How do you think
Alice would have explained that?
843
01:12:38,556 --> 01:12:41,209
How could she have explained it?
844
01:12:47,102 --> 01:12:49,582
Look, I think Ali saw a ghost.
845
01:12:50,873 --> 01:12:54,024
But she wasn't to know
that it was her own.
846
01:12:54,710 --> 01:12:56,700
I believe she recorded a ghost.
847
01:12:56,701 --> 01:13:00,760
I believe she recorded the future
coming to get her.
848
01:13:18,299 --> 01:13:24,180
We had found out about the Tooheys, Ray,
and what had happened at Lake Mungo.
849
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:28,681
And by the time we returned home,
850
01:13:30,177 --> 01:13:32,987
the house felt different. It was...
851
01:13:34,648 --> 01:13:36,024
Calm.
852
01:13:44,925 --> 01:13:50,738
I think that Alice wanted us
to know more about her.
853
01:13:51,164 --> 01:13:55,179
She wanted us to know
who she really was,
854
01:13:56,569 --> 01:13:58,286
before she...
855
01:13:59,205 --> 01:14:01,855
You know, before she could leave.
856
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:14,435
In the weeks and months after Lake Mungo,
we started to feel like a family again.
857
01:14:15,754 --> 01:14:17,778
It just crept up on us, really.
858
01:14:17,779 --> 01:14:23,635
We were a little battered and wobbly,
but we were a family all the same.
859
01:14:32,237 --> 01:14:33,328
- Hi, Ray.
- Nice to see you, Russell.
860
01:14:33,329 --> 01:14:35,338
Yeah, you too. Nice. Come in.
861
01:14:35,339 --> 01:14:37,033
Ray called out of the blue...
862
01:14:37,034 --> 01:14:39,836
and said he was going
to be coming through town...
863
01:14:39,837 --> 01:14:44,119
and asked if it was all right
if he could come round and visit.
864
01:14:44,682 --> 01:14:46,239
Six months had gone by,
865
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:51,185
and I just felt
that under the circumstances,
866
01:14:51,186 --> 01:14:53,996
I didn't think it could do any harm.
867
01:14:57,627 --> 01:15:01,176
I think we all felt that after Mungo,
868
01:15:01,597 --> 01:15:05,613
in our own ways, there'd been closure,
I suppose, to a degree.
869
01:15:05,902 --> 01:15:08,267
And, you know,
for each of us it's different.
870
01:15:08,268 --> 01:15:11,751
And for each of us,
we've made our own peace.
871
01:15:18,281 --> 01:15:23,411
It seems strange to me
that Ali should withdraw so abruptly.
872
01:15:23,412 --> 01:15:28,069
And we didn't help her,
we didn't change anything.
873
01:15:28,557 --> 01:15:34,268
I think we just collectively
made a decision to move forward.
874
01:15:35,063 --> 01:15:37,997
And, you know, moving...
875
01:15:37,998 --> 01:15:42,252
was really a big part of all that...
Deciding to move.
876
01:16:00,621 --> 01:16:03,601
It will be difficult to leave the house.
877
01:16:04,725 --> 01:16:07,808
Sometimes, you know,
I just forget that...
878
01:16:10,264 --> 01:16:13,415
She's not coming back.
879
01:16:14,802 --> 01:16:16,313
I forget.
880
01:16:46,832 --> 01:16:50,017
Okay. Close your eyes...
881
01:16:51,637 --> 01:16:55,448
and imagine that you're back
standing outside the house.
882
01:16:56,742 --> 01:16:58,516
Can you see it?
883
01:17:02,681 --> 01:17:04,693
Go inside the house.
884
01:17:06,951 --> 01:17:09,601
I'm going through the front door.
885
01:17:11,923 --> 01:17:13,333
And...
886
01:17:16,294 --> 01:17:19,377
Walking down the hall
towards Alice's room.
887
01:17:25,469 --> 01:17:27,311
Someone's there.
888
01:17:28,071 --> 01:17:30,197
I think someone's coming
down the hall.
889
01:17:30,198 --> 01:17:31,922
Door's open.
890
01:17:34,277 --> 01:17:36,392
Do you know who it is?
891
01:17:48,124 --> 01:17:50,274
Do you want to go inside?
892
01:17:51,361 --> 01:17:52,702
Yeah.
893
01:17:54,697 --> 01:17:55,971
Okay.
894
01:18:06,609 --> 01:18:09,850
- What do you see?
- It's my mum.
895
01:18:12,113 --> 01:18:14,024
What's she saying?
896
01:18:14,749 --> 01:18:17,729
She's not...
She's not saying anything.
897
01:18:24,092 --> 01:18:26,776
I don't think she knows I'm there.
898
01:18:30,465 --> 01:18:32,342
Alice isn't here.
899
01:18:33,701 --> 01:18:35,475
She's not here.
900
01:18:37,038 --> 01:18:38,721
What's happening, Alice?
901
01:18:40,141 --> 01:18:42,266
Are you talking to her?
Is she talking to you?
902
01:18:42,267 --> 01:18:44,184
She's going now.
903
01:18:46,346 --> 01:18:48,496
She's leaving the room.
904
01:18:51,184 --> 01:18:52,799
She's gone.
905
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:55,094
Open your eyes.
906
01:19:49,039 --> 01:19:50,881
She's going now.
907
01:19:53,277 --> 01:19:55,427
She's leaving the room.
908
01:20:04,321 --> 01:20:05,970
All the way.
909
01:20:25,074 --> 01:20:26,689
She's gone.77364
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