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1
00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:04,080
Hold it up here. That's it.
2
00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,880
One, two, three.
3
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:11,440
There you go, see that?
See the light? We're recording.
4
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,600
Shall we do it, then?
Let's get this done.
5
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:14,840
I'm scared stiff.
6
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,880
Well, let's just get past
the door knock now, OK...
7
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,280
All right, yeah. OK,
stop getting on at me. OK.
8
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:23,960
OK, let's go, then.
I'll follow you.
9
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,080
Let's go. Let's do it, then.
10
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,560
Ah, God.
11
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,920
Come on, you'll be fine.
Honestly, Neil.
12
00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,920
Yeah, I know, but you know...
Just think of the relief
13
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,520
when you've done it.
What are we doing?
14
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,640
This programme contains
some strong language
15
00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,120
and scenes which some viewers
may find upsetting.
16
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,240
Keep going.
Well, it's all right for you.
17
00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,080
I think this is the one.
18
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:00,600
Right, let's just do it.
19
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,000
Come on, Neil.
20
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,960
The chances of
finding Lucan alive...
21
00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:10,680
How would a gambler put it?
22
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,760
10,000 to one.
23
00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,200
That's Lucan. Course
that's Lucan, all day long.
24
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,520
95%, he's the same man 50 years on.
25
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,200
Oh! No, no. It's not my friend
Lucky.
26
00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,920
I knew who it was the
second that I saw him,
27
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,640
I swear on my mother's grave
that he is Lord Lucan.
28
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,840
Imagine, imagine if you thought
29
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,720
you'd eluded justice
for that long...
30
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,960
..and your nemesis has found you.
31
00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:48,680
DOORBELL RINGS
32
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I found out when I
was about nine or ten.
33
00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,000
I remember my dad being very quiet.
34
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,400
It was my mum that actually
told me about adoption.
35
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,400
I don't think they told me
I was adopted,
36
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:15,520
they told me about adoption.
37
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,080
And I remember them saying,
38
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,440
"It's not that somebody
didn't want you in a past life,
39
00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,160
"but it meant, for whatever reason,
somebody couldn't look after you."
40
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,440
I remember telling all my friends,
41
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,000
"Well, guess what? I'm adopted."
42
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,520
So, I sort of used it a little bit,
does that make sense?
43
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,480
Oh, no. Oh, Mum.
44
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,240
She's kept all sorts.
45
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,080
Me with my mum on holiday.
46
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,400
She's a lovely lady, my mum.
47
00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,000
I was very happy where I was.
48
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,840
I wasn't curious at all.
49
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,800
Nice one there of my mum and dad.
50
00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:02,480
Later on in life, my mother used
to talk about a brown envelope.
51
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,680
"You should open it, there's items
in the envelope that you're going
52
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,480
"to need some... Basically some
answers to some questions."
53
00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,840
And I remember saying,
"No, Mum, no, I'm not interested.
54
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,080
"I don't need the brown envelope."
55
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,520
Unbeknown to me,
my mum knew that she had cancer.
56
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,040
I remember saying to her, erm...
57
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,240
..on her deathbed.
58
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,120
I remember saying to her, "Mum."
59
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,600
She goes "Yes?"
60
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,920
"Where's that brown envelope?"
61
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,520
She said, "I'm not telling you, but
you'll find it when you need it."
62
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,160
I've left it another three years,
63
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,000
and my dad was out,
went to my mum's bedroom.
64
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,200
And it was easy, chest of drawers,
opened the drawer and there it was.
65
00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,440
"Dear Mr and Mrs Berriman,
I'm pleased to tell you
66
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,120
"that we have a baby son for you.
67
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,200
"His mother is a single girl age 21.
68
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,320
"She's five foot two, green eyes
and a fair complexion.
69
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,320
"She already has a little boy who,
at the moment,
70
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:14,680
"is being cared for by her parents
71
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,640
"and she feels that she cannot
possibly bring up a baby herself.
72
00:04:19,840 --> 00:04:23,280
"The baby's father is a man
she has known for quite a long time
73
00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:25,720
"but he's married to someone else.
74
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,000
"Unfortunately, while his wife
had a period in hospital,
75
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,400
"she visited his home.
Intercourse occurred..." Oh, dear.
76
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,120
"..and she became pregnant.
77
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,440
"Baby will be ready
on March 23rd
78
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,520
"and if you like him
you can take him home."
79
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,800
How strange is that?
80
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,520
Well, they obviously did like you.
81
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,120
Yeah, but all babies are nice,
aren't they, really? So, it's...
82
00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,400
The most bizarre thing was
a newspaper article from 1994.
83
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,440
"The day a young boy discovered the
truth about fugitive peer's nanny."
84
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,360
"I didn't know Lucan had
murdered my mother until I was 11.
85
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,240
"I was always told
she was my sister."
86
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,680
What did you know
about the Lord Lucan affair?
87
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,240
Well, I knew a bit about the
nanny being beaten to death
88
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,400
by an aristocrat who then
disappeared
89
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:33,880
and just escaped justice,
90
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,720
and went on the run, and...
91
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,080
But I didn't understand
why we seemed to have
92
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,320
a newspaper article about somebody
93
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,400
who was brought up
by his grandparents.
94
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,680
He actually believed his mother,
Sandra Rivett, was his sister.
95
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,680
Somebody called Stephen Hensby.
96
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,480
This is my adoption
birth certificate.
97
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,200
Neil James Berriman.
98
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,040
It was then that I managed
to put two and two together.
99
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,360
This is my adoption order with
my real name, Gary Roger Hensby.
100
00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,160
So, Stephen, the boy
from the newspaper article,
101
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,640
must be my brother.
102
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,280
Stephen Hensby.
103
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,400
But the lady can't
be connected to me
104
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,560
because she's called Sandra Rivett.
105
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,360
I read the article one last time
106
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,040
and, down the bottom,
107
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,080
I then realised actually her
name was Sandra Eleanor Hensby.
108
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,000
So I am the son of
Sandra Eleanor Hensby.
109
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,560
Also known as the nanny
murdered by Lord Lucan in 1974.
110
00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,120
A simple letter was what
I was expecting, but...
111
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,280
This just doesn't happen, does it?
112
00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,160
You know, the chances
of you being adopted
113
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,160
and find out that your real mother
114
00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,720
is in one of the biggest
murder mysteries of all time,
115
00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,280
it's just... It's unbelievable.
116
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,280
My mother actually sort of sent me
on a journey of detective work
117
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:34,560
right from the start.
118
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,760
And the brown envelope has
set me on a world of mystery,
119
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,440
intrigue, corruption,
sadness, depression.
120
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,840
I wouldn't have thought, for one
minute, that my mother would have
121
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,640
expected me to have taken it to the
extreme to which I've taken it now.
122
00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,040
But she did know you.
123
00:07:58,480 --> 00:07:59,560
Yeah, she did, yeah.
124
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,240
I mean, I'm no detective,
but you don't really have to be.
125
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,000
I think if you've got the
mentality of being so tenacious
126
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,440
that I won't let anything lie.
127
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,400
When all this started,
128
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,880
all that I knew was what
every man on the street knew.
129
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,440
Which was not very much.
130
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,040
Good heavens. Oh, I see.
131
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,440
Oh, this... Good afternoon.
132
00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:47,720
Hmm. Hmm.
133
00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:53,960
I was desperate to know
as much as I could
134
00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,840
and as fast as I could.
135
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,480
Oh, God. Ah!
136
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,240
What's this?
137
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,960
Oh, my man cave.
138
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,240
Couldn't wish for a
better place, really.
139
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,520
It's ideal having a
builder's lockup for my research.
140
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,280
The only way I could really
get any sense of it,
141
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,720
right from the start,
142
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,200
was to watch all the dramas
that have been made.
143
00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,520
What I find stranger is
people playing my mother.
144
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,480
I think, because I've got no
massive connection with Sandra,
145
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,240
so when I see
something on the screen,
146
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,280
it doesn't matter what drama
it's in, that's my mum.
147
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,080
Most of them seem to start
with Lady Lucan, Veronica,
148
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,520
running down Lower Belgrave Street
towards the Plumbers Arms.
149
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,440
The police were called after
Lady Lucan ran into the street
150
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:09,960
shouting, "Murder!"
151
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,560
Are you ready?
OK, my name is Graham Forsyth.
152
00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:17,720
I'm an ex-detective Sergeant
of the Metropolitan Police,
153
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,360
retiring some years ago.
154
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,520
I got to the premises
around ten o'clock, 10.20.
155
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,040
We go through the house,
we split -
156
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,320
one went one way,
one went the other.
157
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,560
I got the basement floor.
158
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,280
Tricky, isn't it?
159
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,120
Even watching a
reconstruction is...
160
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,120
..horrendous.
161
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,880
I know the light bulb had gone,
there was no light.
162
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,360
In the dark, I could
see there was a sack.
163
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,080
It was a big sack.
164
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,480
There appeared to be an
arm hanging out of it,
165
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,440
over the side of the sack.
166
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,720
It was an awful amount of blood.
167
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,160
There was blood everywhere.
168
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,840
It was seeping through the sack.
169
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,160
It was coming through the top
of the... It was everywhere,
170
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,080
you were literally
paddling in blood.
171
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,160
I genuinely thought it was
possible that the victim
172
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,600
had been decapitated,
there was so much blood.
173
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,440
Upstairs, we discovered
there was children,
174
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,640
I wanted to know
who's house we were in.
175
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,920
It turned out that we were told
that it was owned by Lord Lucan.
176
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,720
Where was Lord Lucan?
177
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,280
Word has gone, flown through
London as fast at that,
178
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,240
here we've got an aristocrat,
God help us,
179
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,280
we've got this, we've got that,
all the other.
180
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,360
It's murder, there's blood
everywhere. Woof!
181
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,320
The word is travelling fast.
182
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,400
Here's the Evening Standard.
183
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,160
"Body in sack.
Countess runs out screaming."
184
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,240
Daily Mail - "Wanted for murder -
world hunt for missing earl."
185
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,000
"Body of Sandra Rivett is taken from
a house in Lower Belgravia Street.
186
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,120
"She was trussed up in a
bag and battered to death
187
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,360
"with a piece of lead pipe."
188
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,280
"Worldwide murder hunt
was under way last night
189
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,000
"for the Earl of Lucan, 39, missing
since his children's nanny..."
190
00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,440
It's all about Lord Lucan.
191
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,000
An Aristocrat, peer of the realm.
192
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,520
Moustache.
193
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,800
But who is he?
194
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,840
I knew him for 20 years,
195
00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,760
saw him almost every day.
196
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,760
Here was a gambler,
Taki Theodoracopulos by name.
197
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,680
I met Lucky, as we called him,
198
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,760
because we all belonged
to the Clermont Club
199
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,920
where we gambled all day long.
200
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,600
Were you a gambler?
Yes, I was.
201
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,440
What's the most you've lost
in one session of gambling?
202
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,800
100. You're not talking
about £100, are you?
203
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,440
No, 100,000.
204
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,440
Clermont membership was very,
very difficult to get into,
205
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,520
but Lucky, he had lunch and dinner
there every day, seven days a week.
206
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,800
And you called him "Lucky"?
207
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,680
His name was Lucky because
he was so unlucky in gambling.
208
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,520
If you're stupid enough to gamble,
209
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,320
like anything dangerous,
210
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,240
it's a thrill.
211
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,800
The international offshore powerboat
race is a testing course.
212
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,640
White Migrant still leading, Lord
Bingham giving quarter to no man.
213
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,520
Gambler, loves speed.
214
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,440
Strikes me, anything that he wants
to do, he just gets on and does it.
215
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,280
The lifestyle's amazing, innit?
216
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:13,880
I mean, look at it.
217
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,440
They don't want
for anything, do they?
218
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,240
Friends, luxury yachts,
219
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,720
got an attractive wife, Veronica.
220
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,320
They definitely liked the camera.
221
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,560
I mean, they filmed
everything about their life.
222
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,520
Everything looks ideal.
223
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,280
He loved his children,
that's clear from this.
224
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,840
Throwing things around.
225
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,560
I mean, watching some of this,
226
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,560
you wouldn't have thought that he
would have wanted to have left them.
227
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,640
They had everything, didn't they?
228
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,400
What was he doing killing my mother?
229
00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,920
They had separated.
230
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,840
He had another address,
231
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,280
so I went down there,
232
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,760
I discovered quite a few tapes.
233
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,320
He'd made tapes of his wife.
234
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:11,480
What kind of tapes?
235
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,200
On the phone, he secretly recorded
his wife, as far as I know.
236
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,320
What was he trying
to get her to say?
237
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,320
I mean, just talking.
238
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,400
He used to tell her that
she was ill, she wasn't well...
239
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,840
..and she needed treatment.
240
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,320
I do remember that.
241
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,880
Lady Lucan left her home in
Belgravia guarded by police,
242
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,080
as she has been since
her husband's disappearance.
243
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,640
A really surprising number of
people were willing to talk to me.
244
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,920
Veronica's sister,
245
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,840
Lucan's sister,
246
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,000
people who'd really known them.
247
00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,320
There was this malign
chemistry between the Lucans.
248
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,720
She looked very, very pretty,
249
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,480
and he looked very handsome,
250
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,800
and it all looked
rather fairy tale.
251
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,960
But, I mean, I've always wondered
if he was gay, to be honest.
252
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,600
Erm... Really? Why so?
253
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,440
Er, well, I... I did... I'm not...
254
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,400
there's not just me saying that.
255
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,120
People said things like,
256
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,560
"Oh, he was known to
be safe in taxis,"
257
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,080
and things like that.
258
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,880
He had to have an heir
and do those conventional things.
259
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,080
But by degrees,
260
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,520
things just fell apart.
261
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:53,960
It was the custody case.
262
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,680
It was all about that.
263
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,760
The vicious hearing.
264
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,520
Veronica talked about
his sexual proclivities.
265
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,480
Claimed that he was violent.
266
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,600
She, herself, admitted
she had mental health issues.
267
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,960
She had a psychiatrist
who was, said on her behalf,
268
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,400
"As long as she takes lithium,
269
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,760
"she's fit to have custody."
270
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,840
Lucky came to see me here
in Gstaad and he said to me,
271
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,040
"You know, it's a strange thing,
272
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,640
"the moment she walks into a court
of law,
273
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,080
"she's transformed from a
mad woman to perfectly sane,
274
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,600
"perfectly articulate person
275
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,320
"and swings the judge every time."
276
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,400
After he lost, the court order
said she must have a nanny in situ.
277
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,320
She was not capable of
looking after them herself.
278
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,120
There was a procession of nannies,
a constant procession of nannies.
279
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:57,760
WHISTLING
280
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,240
And into that chaos
walks my mother.
281
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,560
Good morning, love. Hello.
282
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,480
There's very few
people that are around
283
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,240
that can give us a sense of
284
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,400
what it was like on the inside.
285
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,320
DOORBELL
286
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,840
At the time, I read that
my mother had a boyfriend,
287
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,400
an Aussie bar manager called John.
288
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,840
Good looking fella, wasn't he?
Hey, and he had hair.
289
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,120
I took over the Plumber Arms.
290
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,040
It was a good little boozer,
291
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,120
and this was actually the pub
that Veronica ran to
292
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,840
on the night of the murder.
293
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,320
This is where I met Sandra.
294
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:46,880
And what was your first impression?
295
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,160
Nice bum.
296
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,600
Seriously, erm...
297
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,280
She was a lot of fun.
298
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,240
Does a bit of piss-taking.
299
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,640
She had a great job, she'd made
good friends with her boss.
300
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,720
Veronica was a nice person,
she really was and...
301
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,880
Well, I mean some people
come right out with it
302
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,400
and say she was completely mad.
303
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,120
Bullshit.
304
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,200
This is Veronica, Lady Lucan's book.
305
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,920
And she talks about the
first time she met Sandra.
306
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,640
"A very nice girl who looked most
respectable and well turned out.
307
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,000
"I liked her at once.
308
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,480
"She seemed kind and decent,
she said she liked
309
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,120
"to take a pride in her work
310
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:34,120
"and understood the difficulties
attached to my situation."
311
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,160
I was up there one day waiting
for Sandra to come out
312
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,800
and His Lordship, he was standing
across the road near a park,
313
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,440
just standing there
watching the house.
314
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,240
They were getting
phone calls in the house -
315
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,520
midnight, it'd be three
o'clock in the morning -
316
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,320
nobody on the other end,
heavy breathing,
317
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,720
all that sort of bullshit.
318
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,480
Try and intimidate her
and send her over the edge.
319
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,760
Sandra, at one stage, took one
of the calls and just said to him,
320
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,960
"Why don't you just fuck off?
We know who you are."
321
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,200
I said, "Did you say that to him?"
322
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,120
She said, "Yeah, course I did."
So, yeah.
323
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:17,560
She sounds quite a tough one.
324
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,240
Yeah, yeah,
a very strong personality.
325
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,800
We saw the deterioration of Lucky,
326
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,800
especially the last two weeks.
327
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,360
He was drinking all the time.
328
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,160
He came to see me
two nights before the murder.
329
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,160
He borrowed some money.
330
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,120
£12,000.
331
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:44,640
He said because of the children.
332
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,760
I mean, for him to come
to me to ask for that money...
333
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,840
..he must have been pretty
desperate, he had no money.
334
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,000
Because the creditors
were closing in.
335
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,920
I don't think there was a major
bank he didn't owe money to.
336
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,560
He lost £20,000 on the case.
337
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,440
His gambling became
more and more manic
338
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,680
because he was trying to win money
339
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,840
which, as soon as you try and
do that, you inevitably lose.
340
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,160
And he did become obsessional
and he was stalking her,
341
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,920
and he was... It was really the end.
342
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,000
There's endless theories
to what happened that night
343
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,640
on the seventh of November,
344
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,200
but the police are pretty clear cut
345
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,400
on what happened.
346
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,920
Lucan was furious
about the custody case.
347
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,880
He goes to the house
to kill Veronica,
348
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,040
goes down into the basement,
349
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,360
removes the light bulb
350
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:42,240
then waits in the darkness.
351
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,720
And Sandra came down the stairs
352
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,560
to wash up some cups,
353
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,240
or make another cup of tea,
and he bludgeoned her to death.
354
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,320
And then he violently
attacks Veronica
355
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,240
when she'd come down to the basement
to see where Sandra was.
356
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:05,200
Veronica managed to escape, run
down the road and raised the alarm.
357
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,800
So he got the wrong woman?
358
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,680
A case of mistaken identity?
359
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,480
Do you think it was?
360
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:12,760
I did.
361
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,440
Everybody did.
362
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,440
Then I got a call
from the police
363
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,360
asking if I wanted to come in
and look at the case files.
364
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,960
The lady was very nice,
365
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,200
took me through lots of paperwork.
366
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,160
She said, "If this will help you,
367
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,600
"we have a book of the
crime scene photographs."
368
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,960
I've never seen any pictures
of the crime scene.
369
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,920
And I was due to get the train home.
370
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,240
The book was to one side.
371
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,920
I thought, "Oh..."
372
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,680
I did give a health warning.
373
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,120
Because once he turns the page
and looks at those images,
374
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:02,000
you can't unsee them.
375
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,520
You could tell he was really
thinking hard about
376
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,200
what he wanted to do, needed to do.
377
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,640
And he chose to turn those pages.
378
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,320
Front door steps.
379
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,680
They've worked their way
into the house.
380
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,400
Downstairs, the basement.
381
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:31,800
The tea tray at the bottom of the
stairs with all the broken cups.
382
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,000
Coming down the stairs,
we can see broken crockery.
383
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,520
We start to see Sandra's body
here in the mail sack.
384
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,000
Blood all over the floor.
385
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,880
And also some splattering,
386
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,720
right at the bottom of the stairs
387
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,960
where the first blows were struck.
388
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,800
Lots of blood on the door.
389
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,480
And the mail sack.
390
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,760
Other photographs...
391
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,040
It's probably about seven, eight
really disturbing photographs.
392
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,720
Six major blows to the head,
393
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,360
splitting the scalp...
394
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,680
..and then bruising to the back
of the right hand,
395
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,920
defence wounds where
she would have tried to block.
396
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,240
We found there was a lead pipe -
397
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,200
not very long, but very heavy.
398
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,160
The old-fashioned lead piping
you used to get in old houses.
399
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,360
And then you think,
"Well, why keep bashing her?
400
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:55,640
"What was the point?"
401
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,440
I mean, this is supposed
to be a gentleman.
402
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,960
You know, why keep
bashing the kid?
403
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,320
There's no excuse,
but he was completely drunk.
404
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,160
Do you think?
405
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,680
Well, I know so, because he had
drank two bottles of vodka,
406
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,240
he was about to kill his wife.
407
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,520
A cold blooded murderer wouldn't
drink at all, would drink water.
408
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,000
The story goes, "He accidently
kills the wrong person."
409
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,080
I don't believe that.
410
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,680
She was trying to protect
herself with her forearms
411
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,960
and she's... I think she's got
bruising on the front of the face.
412
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,080
That would indicate that somebody
was, they were face-to-face.
413
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,040
SMASHING AND SCREAMING ON TV
414
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,360
Lucan's plan was to convince
everybody that Veronica was mad
415
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:40,320
and then get custody
of the children.
416
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,440
This was not going the
right way for Lucan, was it?
417
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080
I think because Sandra was there,
418
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,720
Veronica was able to
cope with it better.
419
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,160
When Sandra was in
the house with Veronica,
420
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,560
I think it gave Veronica
a sense of safety and security.
421
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,480
His plans were falling apart.
422
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,120
He wanted rid of her.
423
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,720
The most upsetting
thing about it all
424
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,680
is that she didn't die instantly.
425
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,680
It destroyed me.
426
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,160
And you never knew her?
427
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,800
No, I never... I never knew Sandra.
428
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,240
But that doesn't change things, does
it? Erm, she's still your mother.
429
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,880
Good to see you.
430
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,560
I don't get to see many people
431
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,840
that knew my mum the way
that you knew her.
432
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,040
So find out as much
as you can before I cark it, pal.
433
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,040
That's why I'm here, John.
434
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,880
We were just enjoying life,
that's all.
435
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,720
To be honest,
your mum said to me,
436
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,480
three or four weeks
into the relationship,
437
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,160
that she had baggage
of her own, you know?
438
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,560
And she explained about putting
herself into a...
439
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,880
A facility because
she was depressed.
440
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,000
And I learned about Stephen
and I learned about you.
441
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,280
Sandra was depressed?
442
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,160
Not when I knew her, she wasn't.
443
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,720
Working for somebody that, you know,
she really liked
444
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,560
and vice versa, and
the kids loved her.
445
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,600
What did she say about me,
then, John? Because...
446
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,840
Nothing much, to be honest.
I'm sorry.
447
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,600
I had no idea who adopted you
or anything like that.
448
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,080
I can't give you much more
information on that.
449
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,280
Oh, no, that's fine.
450
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,240
I'm pretty sure she felt that...
451
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,720
..both of you were
getting a better chance at life
452
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,000
to what she was able to give you.
453
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,480
Who knows? Later on down the track,
454
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,000
she might have started looking
for you and Stephen,
455
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,800
and that sort of thing,
I don't know.
456
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,560
It is what it is, I'm afraid.
457
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,360
Mm-hm.
458
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,800
Something you need to know about
that particular night, erm...
459
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,600
The day before, erm...
460
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,880
Watneys, they'd gotten
in touch with me
461
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,000
and said they want me
to go into another pub.
462
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,880
So...
463
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,320
..I rang your mum and said,
464
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,560
"Can you swap nights? Because
I'm going have to be working
465
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,080
"on the Thursday night."
466
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,160
Which was normally her night off.
467
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,840
She spoke to Veronica, and Veronica
said, "Yeah, that's no problem."
468
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,480
You know? So...
469
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,120
..I got her to change her shift.
470
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:39,440
So, Sandra was home that night when
she should have been out with me.
471
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,760
EXHALES
472
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,920
And, no matter what
people say to you...
473
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,600
..you can't forgive yourself
for something like that.
474
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,600
And there's nothing I can do
about it, you know, it was, erm...
475
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,880
It was my fault.
476
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,680
Give me a sec.
477
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,640
Imagine your girlfriend's
brutally murdered
478
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,840
and John's had to put it in a box
479
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,360
and put the lid on it.
480
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,600
If I hadn't asked her
to change her night off...
481
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,320
If, if, if, if, if.
482
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,560
50 years that he's
been stewing on that.
483
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,680
Sometimes I feel as though as I'm
the one that actually killed her.
484
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,320
That's a bit harsh.
485
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,200
You mustn't beat
yourself up over it.
486
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,040
Who was to know that it wouldn't
have happened a week after?
487
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,040
Until you've been in a situation
488
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,320
where somebody close to you
has been murdered,
489
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,920
you really don't understand what...
490
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,720
What the feelings
of anger, revenge...
491
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,080
..injustice really mean.
492
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,960
ON TV: If you think of battering,
493
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,480
you're close to a person,
494
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,720
you must have a sense
of who they are.
495
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,320
You must have a sense of the
voice that you're hearing.
496
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,440
Even in the dark, you know the feel,
the smell of people, don't you?
497
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,760
To put it at its most basic.
498
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,560
Bearing in mind that Sandra
had different coloured hair,
499
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,880
then whoever attacked
Sandra knew it was Sandra.
500
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,840
Do you agree? Mm.
501
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,600
Ah, it's just never-ending.
502
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,120
It's been very, very difficult.
503
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,520
Many, many hours, every
weekend, up on the computer,
504
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,800
"Oh, come and look at this."
505
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,760
Quite good having a bit
of a mission, isn't it?
506
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,200
Er, yes, it's good
having a mission in life,
507
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,120
but not at the expense
of...your own life.
508
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,000
It's just taken over.
509
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,360
I try to bring him back
to normality, you know,
510
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,560
"What are we doing this week?"
511
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,840
You know, "Where are we going
on holiday? Shall I book it?"
512
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,560
But the conversation
always comes back to Lucan.
513
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,880
ON TV: And what happened
to Lucan after that night?
514
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,240
My own view is that he's dead.
515
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,600
As far as the police were concerned,
516
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,800
I think it's fair to say that,
from almost immediately
517
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,880
the case was solved,
518
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,760
and the only issue was,
"Where is Lord Lucan?"
519
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,040
I wish to interview him and
I'd like to interview him
520
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,360
as soon as possible.
521
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,880
And if any person is helping him
522
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,960
or have any knowledge
of his whereabouts,
523
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,440
we'd like them to let us know.
524
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,320
Have you any idea why he isn't
coming forward at the moment? No.
525
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,920
All the police knew
526
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,680
was that he'd driven, that night,
527
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,280
in a borrowed car,
to Uckfield in Sussex.
528
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,800
Then he would have come along here.
529
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,000
But this is the area that we...
530
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,760
The next thing we know, which
is, in a sense, the last thing,
531
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,160
is that the car he was driving
was found abandoned in
532
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,480
an obscure residential road in
Newhaven -
533
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,520
which is, of course, a port
534
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,360
and, therefore, natural
narrative would lead one to say
535
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,680
that Newhaven is journey's end.
536
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,840
There were ferries that
went regularly to Dieppe,
537
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:30,240
so one would say he got on one
of those ferries and he jumped off.
538
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,240
We tried everything, even had the
bloody ferry taken out of the water.
539
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,720
Because forensically,
although it's been in the water,
540
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,240
they could still find whether
propellers had chopped him up.
541
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,040
That was the theory,
but they didn't find anything.
542
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,120
What do you think happened?
543
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,840
I think, in the end,
he did himself in.
544
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,720
Soon afterwards?
545
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,280
I think so.
546
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,000
It had all gone so terribly wrong.
547
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,520
He must have been
terribly depressed.
548
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,840
The search began at
nine o'clock this morning,
549
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080
dogs were used to check a rugged
half mile stretch of cliffs.
550
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,000
Police also searched caravans
on a site overlooking the harbour.
551
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,840
He must have sobered up,
552
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,040
then he realises
that he had committed
553
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,440
a terrible crime
and there was no coming back.
554
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,760
The police divers are due
to carry out an underwater search
555
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,880
of the harbour. They'll be
concentrating on a deep hole
556
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,200
where a number of bodies
have been found in the past.
557
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,600
The only thing
that makes sense to me
558
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,520
was that he killed
himself immediately.
559
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,960
Lucky was a very experienced sailor.
560
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,000
Puts weights on him,
he goes down the Channel.
561
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,520
It's... But it's
quite hard, isn't it?
562
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,040
Because bodies usually eventually
come to the surface.
563
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,280
No, they don't if
they're weighed down,
564
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,240
and fish eat you.
565
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,200
Please take my word,
all his friends knew from day one,
566
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,240
Lucky died 50 years ago
on that night.
567
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,720
"He's dead, job done."
568
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,960
That was the consensus.
569
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,480
I was stumped.
570
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,120
He seemed to have disappeared
off the face of the earth.
571
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:27,720
I didn't know what to do.
572
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,160
Morning, morning. Oh. Good to
see you. Are you all right?
573
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,760
Ooh, yeah, not too bad. Are you all
good? Yeah, it's cold out there.
574
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,840
Is it? Yeah. Are you hungry?
575
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,880
Yeah, bacon sandwich or
something like that.
576
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,240
Toasted or...
577
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:45,960
Normal. Normal.
Normal, we're good.
578
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,160
Brown sauce or red sauce?
579
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,240
Not fussed. You?
580
00:34:49,240 --> 00:34:50,880
I met Glen in 2008.
581
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:51,920
I'm a bit hungry, actually.
582
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,720
I went for a run this morning,
so I'm going to have a bit...
583
00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:55,640
Did you?
When did you start doing that?
584
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,080
Oh, I'm trying to do
couch to 5K in six months.
585
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,320
Glen, he's an
investigative reporter.
586
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,320
It's only when you get to Dunkirk
587
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,520
that you realise just how easy it is
588
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,400
to get past French security.
589
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,600
Half an hour's drive
through the Judaean desert
590
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:12,840
and you reach here, The Dead Sea.
591
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,400
This bridge is over the M6
near the Sandbach Services.
592
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,200
Because they know
most badger baiters...
593
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,680
..know first-hand the dangers of
picking up battlefield ammunition.
594
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,280
Actually, I emailed the BBC
after watching a programme,
595
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,000
and I think it was probably...
596
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,000
Plastic surgery, yeah.
That's it.
597
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,400
1963.
598
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,360
Carolyn's father's notes detail
an operation performed on Lucan.
599
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,400
What's that bit there, then?
That's Lucan's nose?
600
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,480
That's Lucan's nose from the base.
601
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,360
I see. Looking up the nostrils.
602
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,240
The Holy Grail for me,
603
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:45,880
as it emerged in the '90s,
604
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,160
was the Lucan story.
605
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,960
And I wanted to get into the river
and go and find the gold nugget.
606
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,880
When you told me the story about
the... The brown envelope. Yeah.
607
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,640
Oh, I mean, it set all my
journalistic bells ringing.
608
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,160
It was like St Paul's Cathedral,
I was like, "Wow."
609
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,920
I mean, when you first meet people
it's really difficult, isn't it?
610
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,760
Because you don't know
how you're going to...
611
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:06,960
How you're going to get on.
612
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,080
I'll be very honest.
I hid a lot of stuff from you.
613
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,160
Well, I know that.
614
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,920
Because I couldn't trust you,
I didn't know you.
615
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,280
But I trusted you because I didn't
have anywhere else to go, really.
616
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,120
Yeah, he is a rock.
617
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,360
He's my rock, actually.
618
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,960
Don't tell him that, but...
619
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,360
..you know, I need him, don't I?
620
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,800
Where are you? You're under there.
621
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,160
I assessed the evidence on
this case slowly over the '90s
622
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,680
and into the early 2000s.
623
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,720
HE BLOWS DUST
624
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,320
We know that the English Channel
was scoured by police on both sides,
625
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,240
patrol boats up and down.
626
00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,760
Not a body, not a clue.
627
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,920
How could someone just fall off
the face of the earth, you know?
628
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,640
Bumph, disappear.
629
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,440
Lucan, what's going on?
Are you coming here?
630
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,840
HE WHISTLES
631
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,360
Lucan?
632
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,440
Good boy. Sit.
633
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,560
Every now and again,
sightings would pop up.
634
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,080
It started in France, in Cherbourg.
635
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,680
The police inquiries have
centred on the Grand Hotel
636
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,160
close to Cherbourg Harbour.
637
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,720
He come to restaurant
with a girl, a....
638
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:38,560
With a girl? Yeah.
Young girl, French girl.
639
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,680
But you are satisfied that who you
served a meal to is Lord Lucan.
640
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,160
Yes. Yes, yes.
641
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,600
And then there was a
sighting over in Jersey.
642
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,080
A perfectly respectable Englishman
643
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,080
with amazing resemblances
to Lord Lucan.
644
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,280
Anyone elegant with a moustache,
645
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,120
you'd find ten press photographers
on your doorstep.
646
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,960
Lord Lucan's been sighted again,
I understand? Yes, he has.
647
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:03,680
He was seen in a cafe
somewhere in South Africa.
648
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,360
Where was he? God,
he's been everywhere.
649
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:07,880
He's been everywhere!
650
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,400
The press, they'd all go down,
find nothing whatsoever,
651
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,480
get drunk as skunks and come back
to London absolutely pissed
652
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,760
out of their brains, which
is a usual media reaction.
653
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,920
Seychelles, I went
to Seychelles twice.
654
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,080
Mutare, Komatipoort...
655
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,600
Canada.
656
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,360
It was the single case
that I spent most time on.
657
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,840
Sordid domestic murder -
658
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,560
people thought the
aristocracy were above that.
659
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,800
Absolutely captured
the public's imagination.
660
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,080
Suddenly the phone would
ring and we'd get sightings.
661
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:56,960
South America, the Far East,
662
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,800
on a farm in Mexico.
663
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,640
He was seen crying
into his prawns in Mozambique.
664
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,600
Transport cafe on the M1.
665
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,280
A depressed butcher in Brisbane.
666
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,080
He was in Japan,
he was in the Philippines,
667
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,880
he was in Madagascar, Trinidad...
668
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,800
A man who lived in a
camper van in New Zealand.
669
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,880
We spoke to Roger's neighbour.
670
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,960
She saw this photo of Lord Lucan
671
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,120
and is convinced
he's living down the road.
672
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,160
I'm sure that was who he is,
because he's trying to make out
673
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,400
that he's a very poor man.
Poor man, my foot.
674
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,280
He sleeps in a Land Rover
and has a pet possum named Redfern.
675
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,880
Are you Lord Lucan? No.
676
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,840
As time went on, people had given up
on it being a serious investigation
677
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,880
to find a criminal on the run.
678
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,480
This, we're told, is Lord Lucan.
679
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,160
Living the life of a hippie in Goa
680
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,760
under the name of Jungle Barry.
681
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,600
Both sporting an
aristocratic forehead,
682
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,400
left parting and
distinctive eyebrows.
683
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,520
Lucky couldn't live outside
of Belgravia and Mayfair.
684
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,440
The idea that he
could live in Goa...
685
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,480
I mean, when he came
to the South of France,
686
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,160
you could see him a mile away,
an Englishman abroad.
687
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,720
You know, that charming way of
not really knowing where you are.
688
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:14,800
But looking down at these people
689
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,560
and their strange habits.
690
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,280
There's no way.
691
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,640
Today, five years later, no-one
knows whether he's alive or dead.
692
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,240
Lucan disappeared a decade ago...
693
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,400
20 years ago, Lord Lucan...
694
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,440
It was madness.
695
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,600
A horrific murder
moves into a farce.
696
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,960
He was last seen running round
on Shergar in the Bull Ring.
697
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,520
How do you investigate
something like this?
698
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,880
If you're watching, Lord Lucan,
please, you know,
699
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,400
give us a ring, because Gary...
700
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,480
Sometimes you need a lucky break.
701
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,760
My intuition, as his son, is that he
died within about 12 hours of...
702
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,280
Of the event.
703
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,440
But... And that raises a
whole load of questions
704
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,160
which I don't know where to go with.
705
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,560
A documentary had
been on television.
706
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:10,960
Lucan's son was in it.
707
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,960
When that went out,
708
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,680
a woman called Marianne Robey
was watching it at home.
709
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,960
George Bingham, he just said,
710
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,880
"I wish I knew what the truth was."
711
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,360
I suddenly thought, "Well,
I remember sending you to Africa,
712
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,120
"I know your dad was alive.
I could tell you some things."
713
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,520
So I set off trying to contact him,
714
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,560
which proved very difficult.
715
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,040
I tried a few journalists,
716
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,320
sent out three or four emails,
717
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,000
I was contacted by, erm,
Glen Campbell of the BBC.
718
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,880
So, we just chat for a bit, really.
719
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,160
But not recording, are we not...?
720
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,720
Yeah, we are recording, yeah.
721
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:51,320
He wanted to do an interview,
which I was very reluctant,
722
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,960
I honestly didn't feel that
comfortable about saying too much.
723
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,280
Shall I just put it there...?
724
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:57,640
Yeah, sorry, I'll just...
725
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,720
She didn't want to be on camera.
726
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:02,200
So, what was your job?
727
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,000
In '79, I answered an ad
and moved into Aspinall's.
728
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,360
Mr Aspinall's secretary, I was more
a secretary for the casino.
729
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,240
Mr Aspinall's Clermont Club
730
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:15,760
in one of the last private
houses in Berkeley Square.
731
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,640
This is the restaurant.
732
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,600
John Aspinall ran casinos.
733
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:20,960
Pick them out now.
734
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,080
He ran Howletts Zoo.
735
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,000
These animals are not tame.
736
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,440
We're not the boss.
737
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,240
As, no doubt, you can see.
738
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,320
And, he was a very, very
good friend of Lord Lucan's.
739
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,600
He was a very good boss,
very loyal, very kind.
740
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,240
Did me favours which I appreciated.
741
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,520
And had you heard of Lord Lucan
and the whole mystery?
742
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,400
Maybe something had come
in the news in '74,
743
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,680
I mean, I would have been 19.
744
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,200
In 1979, I was asked
to be involved
745
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,760
in arranging for
Lord Lucan's children
746
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,280
to go to visit him in Africa.
747
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,200
The bits I had to do was
to arrange flights for them,
748
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,040
passports for them.
749
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,440
They had to have a second passport
750
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,360
because, otherwise, it would
be stamped and their mother,
751
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,280
Lady Lucan, wasn't to
know about this trip.
752
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,840
It was made clear to me that,
if she were to get in touch
753
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:32,200
for any reason, there was no mention
to be made about them going off.
754
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,400
There was a court order that the
children would be wards of court
755
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,920
and that their guardian
would be Lady Lucan's sister
756
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,960
and her husband Bill Shand Kydd.
757
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,560
Bill took them out of
school a week early
758
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,440
without Lady Lucan being aware.
759
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,960
What I had been told, and what
I believed, was that they would
760
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,680
believe that they were going to
a safari at Tree Tops in Kenya.
761
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,560
And that their father just wanted
to see them from a distance.
762
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,280
Not to, not for them to
be aware and, therefore,
763
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,760
not for them to
have to keep secrets.
764
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,440
Do you think that was odd?
765
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,800
I thought it was a little odd at
the time, perhaps a bit elaborate,
766
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,360
But I didn't...
767
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,520
I didn't question it.
768
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,480
Perhaps that why he liked me,
though, because I was quite silent.
769
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,520
Somebody that worked
for John Aspinall,
770
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,120
she was charged with booking
flights for the children.
771
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,520
Get them out to Africa so
that Lucan could look at them,
772
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,200
but for them not to know that
he was there looking at them.
773
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,400
I believe that as much as I believe
774
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,920
that I'm the man who
went to St Helena in 1821
775
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,720
and assassinated Napoleon.
776
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:56,520
Bullshit.
777
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,440
Two trips I specifically arranged,
which were between '70...
778
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,920
You, you meet this lady and
when I met this lady I believed her.
779
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,720
She's, she's easily not believed.
780
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:10,280
But she's very believable
when you meet her, credible.
781
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,360
I was in on the conversations
782
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,520
when John Aspinall
and Sir James Goldsmith
783
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,680
were talking about
784
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,560
the fact that Lord Lucan had
requested to see the children.
785
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,680
Sir James Goldsmith said,
"Absolutely not, this won't work.
786
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,280
"He can't..." You know,
"He can't see them,
787
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,960
"he's going to have to wait."
788
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:31,720
Mr Aspinall said, "He won't wait.
789
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:33,600
"If he doesn't see
the children soon,
790
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,640
"he's just going to come back
and risk everything."
791
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,720
Lord Lucan, I remember him calling,
it was a Friday afternoon
792
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:45,560
and Mr Aspinall had already
gone down to Howletts.
793
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,600
The call came in.
794
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,640
"I've been asked to let you know
that everything's been put in place
795
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:52,920
"and he'll be in touch."
796
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,560
How did he sound?
797
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,880
Very well spoken.
What we would call "posh", I guess.
798
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,000
Do you think he's alive or dead?
799
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,280
I have a feeling he might be alive.
800
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960
Well, he knew from the start
anyway that he was in Africa.
801
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,760
He had arranged for
him to go to Africa.
802
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,920
Aspinall was rescuing
gorillas from Africa.
803
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,960
Lord Lucan, he was a
great friend of yours.
804
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,080
You actually say, "If he
had begged asylum from me,
805
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,160
"he would have got it."
806
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,920
He would have got asylum regardless
of the consequences,
807
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,560
as far as I'm concerned,
because you don't have friends
808
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,040
unless you help them
when they're in that position.
809
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,880
In fact, the very meaning
and essence of friendship
810
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,080
is to help a man when he's in
exactly a position like that.
811
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,240
Friends skip together, face the
battle regardless, side by side.
812
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:39,520
Loyalty like that
is the one crucial factor.
813
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,040
And I mean, of course, if
you're going to turn your friend
814
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,600
over to the authorities,
be it the law,
815
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,040
you're no longer
a person in my view.
816
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,560
A former Coldstream Guards officer,
David Hardy.
817
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,720
He was unfortunately killed in a
road accident in the late '70s.
818
00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,960
And the first police officer on the
scene went through his pockets
819
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,040
and found an address book.
820
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,600
David Hardy's widow
gave me this address book.
821
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,720
Hardy was an acquaintance of Lucan,
822
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:29,840
on the fringes of the gambling set.
823
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,720
Under A is Aspinall's.
824
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:37,080
You get to see the
Clermont Club, Berkeley Square, SW1.
825
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,800
And then when you get under L...
826
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,000
..you have here Lord Lucan,
827
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,800
care of Hotel Les Ambassadeurs,
828
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,320
Beira, Mozambique.
829
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,200
When we went to see Hardy's widow,
830
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,080
she gave us the address book
831
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,080
and said she had given it to her
husband as a birthday present
832
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,320
around about '77, '78.
833
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,280
So, the question arises,
834
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,560
why would you put the address
835
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:17,680
of someone in an address book three
or four years after he disappeared?
836
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,080
1984, I went to Beira,
and of course...
837
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,960
..he was gone.
838
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,400
We've got Hardy
and the address book.
839
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:36,920
Marianne Robey.
840
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,920
Everything is pointing now
towards Africa.
841
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,560
As always, I can't find...
842
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:46,720
There you go.
843
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,440
Then I found out that Scotland Yard
844
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,640
had drawn up their own
intelligence report.
845
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,440
"Recent developments have included
846
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,960
"alleged sightings of
Lucan in Southern Africa."
847
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,440
Written in 2002, it drew
together credible intelligence
848
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,760
that Lucan has got away to Africa.
849
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,200
And I got hold of it.
850
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,120
Did you share it with Neil?
851
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,320
I did. I did share it with Neil.
852
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,400
It's unbelievable.
853
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,320
It blew away all
the established bullshit.
854
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,400
They're sort of talking about
what they might want to do next.
855
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,040
Covert operations, for example.
856
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,880
There's police officers that wanted
to carry on with this investigation.
857
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:33,800
It was shut down
for whatever reason.
858
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,440
But it's here, it's all here.
859
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,120
And it gave a name. Lord Lucan
had taken the name John Crawford.
860
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,160
And then something happened
that we couldn't have predicted.
861
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,640
George was seven when Sandra was
killed, exactly the same age as me.
862
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,240
He wanted to draw a
line under everything,
863
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:03,200
and I can understand that.
864
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,880
George wanted his
father declared dead.
865
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,520
He put a tiny little advert
in the West End Extra,
866
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,280
"Application for the granting of a
presumption of death certificate."
867
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,440
He rejected my report that said that
868
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,720
him and his sister
were flown out to Africa
869
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:29,880
so his father could
watch him from afar.
870
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,920
I'd guess he had access to a boat
871
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,200
and he went a little way
out into the English Channel
872
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,080
and sank it with himself on it.
873
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,800
It was about inheritance.
874
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,760
George would become
the eighth Earl of Lucan.
875
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,600
For Neil, it would mean
Lord Lucan was dead.
876
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,120
I didn't think he was dead.
877
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,000
I didn't want him declared dead.
878
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,400
I was one of the few people that
could contest presumption of death
879
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,280
because I'm a member
of the victim's family.
880
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,800
I applied to the High Court
to intervene.
881
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,840
The court date was set.
882
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,120
And I had the intelligence report,
883
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,720
it was leaked to Glen,
884
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:13,320
that would blow
the whole case apart.
885
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,040
I sat in the High Court.
886
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:23,440
The judge said to me,
887
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,840
"Mr Berriman, have you got
anything you'd like to say?"
888
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,240
And I said, "Yes, your Honour.
889
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:33,480
"I believe that Lord Lucan
was alive in 2004."
890
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,960
And George Bingham's face,
because he was sitting next to me,
891
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,440
went like stone.
892
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,480
And he said to me, "Where have
you got this information from?"
893
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,960
And I said, "It's a
confidential police report."
894
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,480
"Right."
895
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,320
Everything went silent,
and, "Do you have it?"
896
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,000
I said, "No."
897
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,800
Neil could not show that
intelligence report.
898
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,640
The person who'd given it to me was
a serving Scotland Yard Officer,
899
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,920
and he or she would have
lost their jobs, their pensions.
900
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,240
There was a cost here.
901
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,400
I did think to myself,
902
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,600
I'm never going to get another
chance like this, am I?
903
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,160
Well, there you go, can you imagine?
904
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,680
Can you imagine what the impact
of that would have been everywhere?
905
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:32,920
The court this morning declared
Richard John Bingham, my father,
906
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,680
known to most people
as Lord Lucan, er,
907
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,160
to be dead for all legal purposes.
908
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,960
It was like having a rug
pulled from under your feet.
909
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,600
I want to take this time to applaud
the efforts of Mr Neil Berriman
910
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,440
to secure justice for his mother,
911
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,960
our beloved family nanny.
912
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,400
Nonetheless, I'm very pleased with
the result that we achieved today.
913
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,120
I would all, you know,
be very grateful
914
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,560
if we all moved on and find,
found another Loch Ness Monster.
915
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:56,720
Can I just ask from a personal...?
916
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:58,360
Well, he got what he wanted.
917
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,400
Do we now refer to
you as Lord Lucan?
918
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,240
I would now be the eighth Earl of
Lucan, or referred to as Lord Lucan.
919
00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:09,920
So, of course, having him declared
dead almost gives the police
920
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,720
an excuse to think, "Well,
we can push that away now.
921
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:16,240
"There's no further to go on this.
We don't need to do any more work."
922
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:18,160
I am the son of Sandra Rivett.
923
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,440
I'm a builder and by no
means used to these matters
924
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,800
but my intrigue moves me forward.
925
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,600
I know that the convenient drowning
of Lord Lucan is not true.
926
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,280
Neil, what do you think
happened to Lord Lucan?
927
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,680
Erm, he escaped.
928
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,360
Thank you, thank you.
929
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,400
This was a dark hour.
930
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,960
It was an emotional time.
It was awful.
931
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,840
I nearly had about two years of
being on antidepressants, didn't I?
932
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,040
I just remember you
being completely...
933
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,280
You were like a different person.
934
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,520
You could just tell with the tone
of voice, there was just nothing.
935
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,160
You were very angry.
I remember you being very angry.
936
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,200
Angry. Yeah, I was angry, yeah.
937
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,360
Yeah, it's difficult for Melissa,
of course it is.
938
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,120
Her dad's always had the bee
in his bonnet, if you like.
939
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,800
Melissa was only a teenager, so...
940
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,560
Do you remember this,
this whole presumption of death
941
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,440
and then what happened afterwards?
942
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,120
I do remember it,
943
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,160
and I remember actually, at the
time, not wanting to watch it,
944
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,200
and I didn't watch it for ages.
945
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,720
Because...it was hard for Dad.
946
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,640
Yeah, you know, it's been...
947
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,760
It's gone on for so long,
948
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,240
you kind of think...
949
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,880
.."OK, it's never
really going to come to an end."
950
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,360
We're too far, we're
too involved with it now.
951
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,760
You can't stop something
that you're too involved in.
952
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,320
Especially if you've got a belief.
953
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,840
You can't just... It's not like
a tap you can turn off.
954
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,600
24 hours a day, seven days a week.
955
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:40,480
He's pushing himself,
956
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,960
he's pushing his own mental health.
957
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,520
But for what purpose?
958
00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:00,440
This is the closest, really,
we can get to her, isn't it?
959
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,400
Yeah, I think she fitted
in well here. It's, erm...
960
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,000
Where's the house from here?
961
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,640
Just over there.
962
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,400
I sometimes feel better
by coming here.
963
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:23,000
This is where she enjoyed
her last eight weeks.
964
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,800
I imagine her to be very kind
of fun and bubbly, and friendly.
965
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,320
Outgoing. Mm.
966
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,080
Yeah.
967
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:34,480
But you're the same, aren't you?
968
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:36,880
Hmm.
969
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,080
You and Kim have been through hell,
so I'm sorry for that.
970
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,600
No, you don't need to apologise.
971
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,720
But we're past the point
of no return now.
972
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,440
I am convinced that he got away.
973
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,760
And that he survived
for a while somewhere.
974
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,000
Lord Lucan? I'm sorry,
975
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,400
but obviously I cannot divulge
my whereabouts at this time.
976
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,080
That would be quite
out of the question.
977
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,640
I definitely knew, in 2000,
that he was still alive.
978
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,480
I was pretty sure in 2005.
979
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,680
Is he lying still undiscovered
somewhere here in the Newhaven area?
980
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,400
Your adopted mother set you a bit
of a challenge, really, didn't she?
981
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,400
Yeah, she did give me a puzzle.
982
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,000
But I wonder whether she thought
983
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,160
that I'd actually
put the last piece in?
984
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,800
Well, this is massive.
985
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,080
If this man's correct...
986
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:01,440
..he's alive.
987
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,360
To catch a criminal, you have
to think like a criminal.
988
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,240
Check, check, check, check.
989
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:13,600
Max is 45 minutes on these.
990
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,520
That's him.
991
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,520
I know you want it to be.
992
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,440
And then he goes,
"What if I am Lord Lucan?
993
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,880
"What the fuck are you
going to do about it?"
994
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:25,160
That man, back there...
995
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,640
BOTH: Is Lord Lucan.
996
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:27,920
You know what? What?
997
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,400
Let's go and get this fucker.
123631
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