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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:04,080 Hold it up here. That's it. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,880 One, two, three. 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:11,440 There you go, see that? See the light? We're recording. 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,600 Shall we do it, then? Let's get this done. 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:14,840 I'm scared stiff. 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,880 Well, let's just get past the door knock now, OK... 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,280 All right, yeah. OK, stop getting on at me. OK. 8 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:23,960 OK, let's go, then. I'll follow you. 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,080 Let's go. Let's do it, then. 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,560 Ah, God. 11 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,920 Come on, you'll be fine. Honestly, Neil. 12 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,920 Yeah, I know, but you know... Just think of the relief 13 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,520 when you've done it. What are we doing? 14 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,640 This programme contains some strong language 15 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,120 and scenes which some viewers may find upsetting. 16 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,240 Keep going. Well, it's all right for you. 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,080 I think this is the one. 18 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:00,600 Right, let's just do it. 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,000 Come on, Neil. 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,960 The chances of finding Lucan alive... 21 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:10,680 How would a gambler put it? 22 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,760 10,000 to one. 23 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,200 That's Lucan. Course that's Lucan, all day long. 24 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,520 95%, he's the same man 50 years on. 25 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,200 Oh! No, no. It's not my friend Lucky. 26 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,920 I knew who it was the second that I saw him, 27 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,640 I swear on my mother's grave that he is Lord Lucan. 28 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,840 Imagine, imagine if you thought 29 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,720 you'd eluded justice for that long... 30 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,960 ..and your nemesis has found you. 31 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:48,680 DOORBELL RINGS 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,160 I found out when I was about nine or ten. 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,000 I remember my dad being very quiet. 34 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,400 It was my mum that actually told me about adoption. 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,400 I don't think they told me I was adopted, 36 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:15,520 they told me about adoption. 37 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,080 And I remember them saying, 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,440 "It's not that somebody didn't want you in a past life, 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,160 "but it meant, for whatever reason, somebody couldn't look after you." 40 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,440 I remember telling all my friends, 41 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,000 "Well, guess what? I'm adopted." 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,520 So, I sort of used it a little bit, does that make sense? 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,480 Oh, no. Oh, Mum. 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,240 She's kept all sorts. 45 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,080 Me with my mum on holiday. 46 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,400 She's a lovely lady, my mum. 47 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,000 I was very happy where I was. 48 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,840 I wasn't curious at all. 49 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,800 Nice one there of my mum and dad. 50 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:02,480 Later on in life, my mother used to talk about a brown envelope. 51 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,680 "You should open it, there's items in the envelope that you're going 52 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,480 "to need some... Basically some answers to some questions." 53 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,840 And I remember saying, "No, Mum, no, I'm not interested. 54 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,080 "I don't need the brown envelope." 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,520 Unbeknown to me, my mum knew that she had cancer. 56 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,040 I remember saying to her, erm... 57 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,240 ..on her deathbed. 58 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,120 I remember saying to her, "Mum." 59 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,600 She goes "Yes?" 60 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,920 "Where's that brown envelope?" 61 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,520 She said, "I'm not telling you, but you'll find it when you need it." 62 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,160 I've left it another three years, 63 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,000 and my dad was out, went to my mum's bedroom. 64 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,200 And it was easy, chest of drawers, opened the drawer and there it was. 65 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,440 "Dear Mr and Mrs Berriman, I'm pleased to tell you 66 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,120 "that we have a baby son for you. 67 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,200 "His mother is a single girl age 21. 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,320 "She's five foot two, green eyes and a fair complexion. 69 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,320 "She already has a little boy who, at the moment, 70 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:14,680 "is being cared for by her parents 71 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,640 "and she feels that she cannot possibly bring up a baby herself. 72 00:04:19,840 --> 00:04:23,280 "The baby's father is a man she has known for quite a long time 73 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:25,720 "but he's married to someone else. 74 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,000 "Unfortunately, while his wife had a period in hospital, 75 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,400 "she visited his home. Intercourse occurred..." Oh, dear. 76 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,120 "..and she became pregnant. 77 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,440 "Baby will be ready on March 23rd 78 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,520 "and if you like him you can take him home." 79 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,800 How strange is that? 80 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,520 Well, they obviously did like you. 81 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,120 Yeah, but all babies are nice, aren't they, really? So, it's... 82 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,400 The most bizarre thing was a newspaper article from 1994. 83 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,440 "The day a young boy discovered the truth about fugitive peer's nanny." 84 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,360 "I didn't know Lucan had murdered my mother until I was 11. 85 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,240 "I was always told she was my sister." 86 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,680 What did you know about the Lord Lucan affair? 87 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,240 Well, I knew a bit about the nanny being beaten to death 88 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,400 by an aristocrat who then disappeared 89 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:33,880 and just escaped justice, 90 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,720 and went on the run, and... 91 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,080 But I didn't understand why we seemed to have 92 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,320 a newspaper article about somebody 93 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,400 who was brought up by his grandparents. 94 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,680 He actually believed his mother, Sandra Rivett, was his sister. 95 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,680 Somebody called Stephen Hensby. 96 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,480 This is my adoption birth certificate. 97 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,200 Neil James Berriman. 98 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,040 It was then that I managed to put two and two together. 99 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,360 This is my adoption order with my real name, Gary Roger Hensby. 100 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,160 So, Stephen, the boy from the newspaper article, 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,640 must be my brother. 102 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,280 Stephen Hensby. 103 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,400 But the lady can't be connected to me 104 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,560 because she's called Sandra Rivett. 105 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,360 I read the article one last time 106 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,040 and, down the bottom, 107 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,080 I then realised actually her name was Sandra Eleanor Hensby. 108 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,000 So I am the son of Sandra Eleanor Hensby. 109 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,560 Also known as the nanny murdered by Lord Lucan in 1974. 110 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,120 A simple letter was what I was expecting, but... 111 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,280 This just doesn't happen, does it? 112 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,160 You know, the chances of you being adopted 113 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,160 and find out that your real mother 114 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,720 is in one of the biggest murder mysteries of all time, 115 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:27,280 it's just... It's unbelievable. 116 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,280 My mother actually sort of sent me on a journey of detective work 117 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:34,560 right from the start. 118 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,760 And the brown envelope has set me on a world of mystery, 119 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,440 intrigue, corruption, sadness, depression. 120 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,840 I wouldn't have thought, for one minute, that my mother would have 121 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,640 expected me to have taken it to the extreme to which I've taken it now. 122 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,040 But she did know you. 123 00:07:58,480 --> 00:07:59,560 Yeah, she did, yeah. 124 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,240 I mean, I'm no detective, but you don't really have to be. 125 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,000 I think if you've got the mentality of being so tenacious 126 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,440 that I won't let anything lie. 127 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,400 When all this started, 128 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,880 all that I knew was what every man on the street knew. 129 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,440 Which was not very much. 130 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,040 Good heavens. Oh, I see. 131 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,440 Oh, this... Good afternoon. 132 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:47,720 Hmm. Hmm. 133 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:53,960 I was desperate to know as much as I could 134 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,840 and as fast as I could. 135 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,480 Oh, God. Ah! 136 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,240 What's this? 137 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,960 Oh, my man cave. 138 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,240 Couldn't wish for a better place, really. 139 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,520 It's ideal having a builder's lockup for my research. 140 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,280 The only way I could really get any sense of it, 141 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,720 right from the start, 142 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,200 was to watch all the dramas that have been made. 143 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,520 What I find stranger is people playing my mother. 144 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,480 I think, because I've got no massive connection with Sandra, 145 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,240 so when I see something on the screen, 146 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,280 it doesn't matter what drama it's in, that's my mum. 147 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,080 Most of them seem to start with Lady Lucan, Veronica, 148 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,520 running down Lower Belgrave Street towards the Plumbers Arms. 149 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,440 The police were called after Lady Lucan ran into the street 150 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:09,960 shouting, "Murder!" 151 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,560 Are you ready? OK, my name is Graham Forsyth. 152 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:17,720 I'm an ex-detective Sergeant of the Metropolitan Police, 153 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,360 retiring some years ago. 154 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,520 I got to the premises around ten o'clock, 10.20. 155 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,040 We go through the house, we split - 156 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,320 one went one way, one went the other. 157 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,560 I got the basement floor. 158 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,280 Tricky, isn't it? 159 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,120 Even watching a reconstruction is... 160 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,120 ..horrendous. 161 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,880 I know the light bulb had gone, there was no light. 162 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,360 In the dark, I could see there was a sack. 163 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,080 It was a big sack. 164 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,480 There appeared to be an arm hanging out of it, 165 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,440 over the side of the sack. 166 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,720 It was an awful amount of blood. 167 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,160 There was blood everywhere. 168 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,840 It was seeping through the sack. 169 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,160 It was coming through the top of the... It was everywhere, 170 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,080 you were literally paddling in blood. 171 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,160 I genuinely thought it was possible that the victim 172 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,600 had been decapitated, there was so much blood. 173 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,440 Upstairs, we discovered there was children, 174 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,640 I wanted to know who's house we were in. 175 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,920 It turned out that we were told that it was owned by Lord Lucan. 176 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,720 Where was Lord Lucan? 177 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,280 Word has gone, flown through London as fast at that, 178 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,240 here we've got an aristocrat, God help us, 179 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,280 we've got this, we've got that, all the other. 180 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,360 It's murder, there's blood everywhere. Woof! 181 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,320 The word is travelling fast. 182 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,400 Here's the Evening Standard. 183 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,160 "Body in sack. Countess runs out screaming." 184 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,240 Daily Mail - "Wanted for murder - world hunt for missing earl." 185 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,000 "Body of Sandra Rivett is taken from a house in Lower Belgravia Street. 186 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,120 "She was trussed up in a bag and battered to death 187 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,360 "with a piece of lead pipe." 188 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,280 "Worldwide murder hunt was under way last night 189 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,000 "for the Earl of Lucan, 39, missing since his children's nanny..." 190 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,440 It's all about Lord Lucan. 191 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,000 An Aristocrat, peer of the realm. 192 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,520 Moustache. 193 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,800 But who is he? 194 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,840 I knew him for 20 years, 195 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,760 saw him almost every day. 196 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,760 Here was a gambler, Taki Theodoracopulos by name. 197 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,680 I met Lucky, as we called him, 198 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,760 because we all belonged to the Clermont Club 199 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,920 where we gambled all day long. 200 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,600 Were you a gambler? Yes, I was. 201 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,440 What's the most you've lost in one session of gambling? 202 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,800 100. You're not talking about £100, are you? 203 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,440 No, 100,000. 204 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,440 Clermont membership was very, very difficult to get into, 205 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,520 but Lucky, he had lunch and dinner there every day, seven days a week. 206 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,800 And you called him "Lucky"? 207 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,680 His name was Lucky because he was so unlucky in gambling. 208 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,520 If you're stupid enough to gamble, 209 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,320 like anything dangerous, 210 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,240 it's a thrill. 211 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,800 The international offshore powerboat race is a testing course. 212 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,640 White Migrant still leading, Lord Bingham giving quarter to no man. 213 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,520 Gambler, loves speed. 214 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,440 Strikes me, anything that he wants to do, he just gets on and does it. 215 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,280 The lifestyle's amazing, innit? 216 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:13,880 I mean, look at it. 217 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,440 They don't want for anything, do they? 218 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,240 Friends, luxury yachts, 219 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,720 got an attractive wife, Veronica. 220 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,320 They definitely liked the camera. 221 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,560 I mean, they filmed everything about their life. 222 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,520 Everything looks ideal. 223 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,280 He loved his children, that's clear from this. 224 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,840 Throwing things around. 225 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,560 I mean, watching some of this, 226 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,560 you wouldn't have thought that he would have wanted to have left them. 227 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,640 They had everything, didn't they? 228 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,400 What was he doing killing my mother? 229 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,920 They had separated. 230 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,840 He had another address, 231 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,280 so I went down there, 232 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,760 I discovered quite a few tapes. 233 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,320 He'd made tapes of his wife. 234 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:11,480 What kind of tapes? 235 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,200 On the phone, he secretly recorded his wife, as far as I know. 236 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,320 What was he trying to get her to say? 237 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,320 I mean, just talking. 238 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,400 He used to tell her that she was ill, she wasn't well... 239 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,840 ..and she needed treatment. 240 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,320 I do remember that. 241 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,880 Lady Lucan left her home in Belgravia guarded by police, 242 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,080 as she has been since her husband's disappearance. 243 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,640 A really surprising number of people were willing to talk to me. 244 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,920 Veronica's sister, 245 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,840 Lucan's sister, 246 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,000 people who'd really known them. 247 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,320 There was this malign chemistry between the Lucans. 248 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,720 She looked very, very pretty, 249 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,480 and he looked very handsome, 250 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,800 and it all looked rather fairy tale. 251 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,960 But, I mean, I've always wondered if he was gay, to be honest. 252 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,600 Erm... Really? Why so? 253 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,440 Er, well, I... I did... I'm not... 254 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,400 there's not just me saying that. 255 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,120 People said things like, 256 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,560 "Oh, he was known to be safe in taxis," 257 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,080 and things like that. 258 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,880 He had to have an heir and do those conventional things. 259 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,080 But by degrees, 260 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,520 things just fell apart. 261 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:53,960 It was the custody case. 262 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,680 It was all about that. 263 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,760 The vicious hearing. 264 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,520 Veronica talked about his sexual proclivities. 265 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,480 Claimed that he was violent. 266 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,600 She, herself, admitted she had mental health issues. 267 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,960 She had a psychiatrist who was, said on her behalf, 268 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,400 "As long as she takes lithium, 269 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,760 "she's fit to have custody." 270 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,840 Lucky came to see me here in Gstaad and he said to me, 271 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,040 "You know, it's a strange thing, 272 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,640 "the moment she walks into a court of law, 273 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,080 "she's transformed from a mad woman to perfectly sane, 274 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,600 "perfectly articulate person 275 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,320 "and swings the judge every time." 276 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,400 After he lost, the court order said she must have a nanny in situ. 277 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,320 She was not capable of looking after them herself. 278 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,120 There was a procession of nannies, a constant procession of nannies. 279 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:57,760 WHISTLING 280 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,240 And into that chaos walks my mother. 281 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,560 Good morning, love. Hello. 282 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,480 There's very few people that are around 283 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,240 that can give us a sense of 284 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,400 what it was like on the inside. 285 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,320 DOORBELL 286 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,840 At the time, I read that my mother had a boyfriend, 287 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,400 an Aussie bar manager called John. 288 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,840 Good looking fella, wasn't he? Hey, and he had hair. 289 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,120 I took over the Plumber Arms. 290 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,040 It was a good little boozer, 291 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,120 and this was actually the pub that Veronica ran to 292 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,840 on the night of the murder. 293 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,320 This is where I met Sandra. 294 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:46,880 And what was your first impression? 295 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,160 Nice bum. 296 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,600 Seriously, erm... 297 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,280 She was a lot of fun. 298 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,240 Does a bit of piss-taking. 299 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,640 She had a great job, she'd made good friends with her boss. 300 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,720 Veronica was a nice person, she really was and... 301 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,880 Well, I mean some people come right out with it 302 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,400 and say she was completely mad. 303 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,120 Bullshit. 304 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,200 This is Veronica, Lady Lucan's book. 305 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,920 And she talks about the first time she met Sandra. 306 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,640 "A very nice girl who looked most respectable and well turned out. 307 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,000 "I liked her at once. 308 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,480 "She seemed kind and decent, she said she liked 309 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,120 "to take a pride in her work 310 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:34,120 "and understood the difficulties attached to my situation." 311 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,160 I was up there one day waiting for Sandra to come out 312 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,800 and His Lordship, he was standing across the road near a park, 313 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,440 just standing there watching the house. 314 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,240 They were getting phone calls in the house - 315 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,520 midnight, it'd be three o'clock in the morning - 316 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,320 nobody on the other end, heavy breathing, 317 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,720 all that sort of bullshit. 318 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,480 Try and intimidate her and send her over the edge. 319 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,760 Sandra, at one stage, took one of the calls and just said to him, 320 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,960 "Why don't you just fuck off? We know who you are." 321 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,200 I said, "Did you say that to him?" 322 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,120 She said, "Yeah, course I did." So, yeah. 323 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:17,560 She sounds quite a tough one. 324 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,240 Yeah, yeah, a very strong personality. 325 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,800 We saw the deterioration of Lucky, 326 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,800 especially the last two weeks. 327 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,360 He was drinking all the time. 328 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,160 He came to see me two nights before the murder. 329 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,160 He borrowed some money. 330 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,120 £12,000. 331 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:44,640 He said because of the children. 332 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,760 I mean, for him to come to me to ask for that money... 333 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,840 ..he must have been pretty desperate, he had no money. 334 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,000 Because the creditors were closing in. 335 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,920 I don't think there was a major bank he didn't owe money to. 336 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,560 He lost £20,000 on the case. 337 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,440 His gambling became more and more manic 338 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,680 because he was trying to win money 339 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,840 which, as soon as you try and do that, you inevitably lose. 340 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,160 And he did become obsessional and he was stalking her, 341 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,920 and he was... It was really the end. 342 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,000 There's endless theories to what happened that night 343 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,640 on the seventh of November, 344 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,200 but the police are pretty clear cut 345 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,400 on what happened. 346 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,920 Lucan was furious about the custody case. 347 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,880 He goes to the house to kill Veronica, 348 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,040 goes down into the basement, 349 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,360 removes the light bulb 350 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:42,240 then waits in the darkness. 351 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,720 And Sandra came down the stairs 352 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,560 to wash up some cups, 353 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,240 or make another cup of tea, and he bludgeoned her to death. 354 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,320 And then he violently attacks Veronica 355 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,240 when she'd come down to the basement to see where Sandra was. 356 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:05,200 Veronica managed to escape, run down the road and raised the alarm. 357 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,800 So he got the wrong woman? 358 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,680 A case of mistaken identity? 359 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,480 Do you think it was? 360 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:12,760 I did. 361 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,440 Everybody did. 362 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,440 Then I got a call from the police 363 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,360 asking if I wanted to come in and look at the case files. 364 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,960 The lady was very nice, 365 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,200 took me through lots of paperwork. 366 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,160 She said, "If this will help you, 367 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,600 "we have a book of the crime scene photographs." 368 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,960 I've never seen any pictures of the crime scene. 369 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,920 And I was due to get the train home. 370 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,240 The book was to one side. 371 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,920 I thought, "Oh..." 372 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,680 I did give a health warning. 373 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,120 Because once he turns the page and looks at those images, 374 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:02,000 you can't unsee them. 375 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,520 You could tell he was really thinking hard about 376 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,200 what he wanted to do, needed to do. 377 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,640 And he chose to turn those pages. 378 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,320 Front door steps. 379 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,680 They've worked their way into the house. 380 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,400 Downstairs, the basement. 381 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:31,800 The tea tray at the bottom of the stairs with all the broken cups. 382 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,000 Coming down the stairs, we can see broken crockery. 383 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,520 We start to see Sandra's body here in the mail sack. 384 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,000 Blood all over the floor. 385 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,880 And also some splattering, 386 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,720 right at the bottom of the stairs 387 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,960 where the first blows were struck. 388 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,800 Lots of blood on the door. 389 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,480 And the mail sack. 390 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,760 Other photographs... 391 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,040 It's probably about seven, eight really disturbing photographs. 392 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,720 Six major blows to the head, 393 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,360 splitting the scalp... 394 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,680 ..and then bruising to the back of the right hand, 395 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,920 defence wounds where she would have tried to block. 396 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,240 We found there was a lead pipe - 397 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,200 not very long, but very heavy. 398 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,160 The old-fashioned lead piping you used to get in old houses. 399 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,360 And then you think, "Well, why keep bashing her? 400 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:55,640 "What was the point?" 401 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,440 I mean, this is supposed to be a gentleman. 402 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,960 You know, why keep bashing the kid? 403 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,320 There's no excuse, but he was completely drunk. 404 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,160 Do you think? 405 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,680 Well, I know so, because he had drank two bottles of vodka, 406 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,240 he was about to kill his wife. 407 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,520 A cold blooded murderer wouldn't drink at all, would drink water. 408 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,000 The story goes, "He accidently kills the wrong person." 409 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,080 I don't believe that. 410 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,680 She was trying to protect herself with her forearms 411 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,960 and she's... I think she's got bruising on the front of the face. 412 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,080 That would indicate that somebody was, they were face-to-face. 413 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,040 SMASHING AND SCREAMING ON TV 414 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,360 Lucan's plan was to convince everybody that Veronica was mad 415 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:40,320 and then get custody of the children. 416 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,440 This was not going the right way for Lucan, was it? 417 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080 I think because Sandra was there, 418 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,720 Veronica was able to cope with it better. 419 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,160 When Sandra was in the house with Veronica, 420 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,560 I think it gave Veronica a sense of safety and security. 421 00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,480 His plans were falling apart. 422 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,120 He wanted rid of her. 423 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,720 The most upsetting thing about it all 424 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,680 is that she didn't die instantly. 425 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,680 It destroyed me. 426 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,160 And you never knew her? 427 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,800 No, I never... I never knew Sandra. 428 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,240 But that doesn't change things, does it? Erm, she's still your mother. 429 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,880 Good to see you. 430 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,560 I don't get to see many people 431 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,840 that knew my mum the way that you knew her. 432 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,040 So find out as much as you can before I cark it, pal. 433 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,040 That's why I'm here, John. 434 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,880 We were just enjoying life, that's all. 435 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,720 To be honest, your mum said to me, 436 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,480 three or four weeks into the relationship, 437 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,160 that she had baggage of her own, you know? 438 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,560 And she explained about putting herself into a... 439 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,880 A facility because she was depressed. 440 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,000 And I learned about Stephen and I learned about you. 441 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,280 Sandra was depressed? 442 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,160 Not when I knew her, she wasn't. 443 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,720 Working for somebody that, you know, she really liked 444 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,560 and vice versa, and the kids loved her. 445 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,600 What did she say about me, then, John? Because... 446 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,840 Nothing much, to be honest. I'm sorry. 447 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,600 I had no idea who adopted you or anything like that. 448 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,080 I can't give you much more information on that. 449 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,280 Oh, no, that's fine. 450 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,240 I'm pretty sure she felt that... 451 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,720 ..both of you were getting a better chance at life 452 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,000 to what she was able to give you. 453 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,480 Who knows? Later on down the track, 454 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,000 she might have started looking for you and Stephen, 455 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,800 and that sort of thing, I don't know. 456 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,560 It is what it is, I'm afraid. 457 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,360 Mm-hm. 458 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,800 Something you need to know about that particular night, erm... 459 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,600 The day before, erm... 460 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,880 Watneys, they'd gotten in touch with me 461 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,000 and said they want me to go into another pub. 462 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,880 So... 463 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,320 ..I rang your mum and said, 464 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,560 "Can you swap nights? Because I'm going have to be working 465 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,080 "on the Thursday night." 466 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,160 Which was normally her night off. 467 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,840 She spoke to Veronica, and Veronica said, "Yeah, that's no problem." 468 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,480 You know? So... 469 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,120 ..I got her to change her shift. 470 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:39,440 So, Sandra was home that night when she should have been out with me. 471 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,760 EXHALES 472 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,920 And, no matter what people say to you... 473 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,600 ..you can't forgive yourself for something like that. 474 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,600 And there's nothing I can do about it, you know, it was, erm... 475 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,880 It was my fault. 476 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,680 Give me a sec. 477 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,640 Imagine your girlfriend's brutally murdered 478 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,840 and John's had to put it in a box 479 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,360 and put the lid on it. 480 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,600 If I hadn't asked her to change her night off... 481 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,320 If, if, if, if, if. 482 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,560 50 years that he's been stewing on that. 483 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,680 Sometimes I feel as though as I'm the one that actually killed her. 484 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,320 That's a bit harsh. 485 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,200 You mustn't beat yourself up over it. 486 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,040 Who was to know that it wouldn't have happened a week after? 487 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,040 Until you've been in a situation 488 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,320 where somebody close to you has been murdered, 489 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,920 you really don't understand what... 490 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,720 What the feelings of anger, revenge... 491 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,080 ..injustice really mean. 492 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,960 ON TV: If you think of battering, 493 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,480 you're close to a person, 494 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,720 you must have a sense of who they are. 495 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,320 You must have a sense of the voice that you're hearing. 496 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,440 Even in the dark, you know the feel, the smell of people, don't you? 497 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,760 To put it at its most basic. 498 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,560 Bearing in mind that Sandra had different coloured hair, 499 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,880 then whoever attacked Sandra knew it was Sandra. 500 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,840 Do you agree? Mm. 501 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,600 Ah, it's just never-ending. 502 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,120 It's been very, very difficult. 503 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,520 Many, many hours, every weekend, up on the computer, 504 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,800 "Oh, come and look at this." 505 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,760 Quite good having a bit of a mission, isn't it? 506 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,200 Er, yes, it's good having a mission in life, 507 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,120 but not at the expense of...your own life. 508 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,000 It's just taken over. 509 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,360 I try to bring him back to normality, you know, 510 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,560 "What are we doing this week?" 511 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,840 You know, "Where are we going on holiday? Shall I book it?" 512 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,560 But the conversation always comes back to Lucan. 513 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,880 ON TV: And what happened to Lucan after that night? 514 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,240 My own view is that he's dead. 515 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,600 As far as the police were concerned, 516 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,800 I think it's fair to say that, from almost immediately 517 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,880 the case was solved, 518 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,760 and the only issue was, "Where is Lord Lucan?" 519 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,040 I wish to interview him and I'd like to interview him 520 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,360 as soon as possible. 521 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,880 And if any person is helping him 522 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,960 or have any knowledge of his whereabouts, 523 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,440 we'd like them to let us know. 524 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,320 Have you any idea why he isn't coming forward at the moment? No. 525 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,920 All the police knew 526 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,680 was that he'd driven, that night, 527 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,280 in a borrowed car, to Uckfield in Sussex. 528 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,800 Then he would have come along here. 529 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,000 But this is the area that we... 530 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,760 The next thing we know, which is, in a sense, the last thing, 531 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,160 is that the car he was driving was found abandoned in 532 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,480 an obscure residential road in Newhaven - 533 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,520 which is, of course, a port 534 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,360 and, therefore, natural narrative would lead one to say 535 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,680 that Newhaven is journey's end. 536 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,840 There were ferries that went regularly to Dieppe, 537 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:30,240 so one would say he got on one of those ferries and he jumped off. 538 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,240 We tried everything, even had the bloody ferry taken out of the water. 539 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,720 Because forensically, although it's been in the water, 540 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,240 they could still find whether propellers had chopped him up. 541 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,040 That was the theory, but they didn't find anything. 542 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,120 What do you think happened? 543 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,840 I think, in the end, he did himself in. 544 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,720 Soon afterwards? 545 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,280 I think so. 546 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,000 It had all gone so terribly wrong. 547 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,520 He must have been terribly depressed. 548 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,840 The search began at nine o'clock this morning, 549 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080 dogs were used to check a rugged half mile stretch of cliffs. 550 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,000 Police also searched caravans on a site overlooking the harbour. 551 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,840 He must have sobered up, 552 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,040 then he realises that he had committed 553 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,440 a terrible crime and there was no coming back. 554 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,760 The police divers are due to carry out an underwater search 555 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,880 of the harbour. They'll be concentrating on a deep hole 556 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,200 where a number of bodies have been found in the past. 557 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,600 The only thing that makes sense to me 558 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,520 was that he killed himself immediately. 559 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,960 Lucky was a very experienced sailor. 560 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,000 Puts weights on him, he goes down the Channel. 561 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,520 It's... But it's quite hard, isn't it? 562 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,040 Because bodies usually eventually come to the surface. 563 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,280 No, they don't if they're weighed down, 564 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,240 and fish eat you. 565 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,200 Please take my word, all his friends knew from day one, 566 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,240 Lucky died 50 years ago on that night. 567 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,720 "He's dead, job done." 568 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,960 That was the consensus. 569 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,480 I was stumped. 570 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,120 He seemed to have disappeared off the face of the earth. 571 00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:27,720 I didn't know what to do. 572 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,160 Morning, morning. Oh. Good to see you. Are you all right? 573 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,760 Ooh, yeah, not too bad. Are you all good? Yeah, it's cold out there. 574 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,840 Is it? Yeah. Are you hungry? 575 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,880 Yeah, bacon sandwich or something like that. 576 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,240 Toasted or... 577 00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:45,960 Normal. Normal. Normal, we're good. 578 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,160 Brown sauce or red sauce? 579 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,240 Not fussed. You? 580 00:34:49,240 --> 00:34:50,880 I met Glen in 2008. 581 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:51,920 I'm a bit hungry, actually. 582 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,720 I went for a run this morning, so I'm going to have a bit... 583 00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:55,640 Did you? When did you start doing that? 584 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,080 Oh, I'm trying to do couch to 5K in six months. 585 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,320 Glen, he's an investigative reporter. 586 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,320 It's only when you get to Dunkirk 587 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,520 that you realise just how easy it is 588 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,400 to get past French security. 589 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,600 Half an hour's drive through the Judaean desert 590 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:12,840 and you reach here, The Dead Sea. 591 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,400 This bridge is over the M6 near the Sandbach Services. 592 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,200 Because they know most badger baiters... 593 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,680 ..know first-hand the dangers of picking up battlefield ammunition. 594 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,280 Actually, I emailed the BBC after watching a programme, 595 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,000 and I think it was probably... 596 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,000 Plastic surgery, yeah. That's it. 597 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,400 1963. 598 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,360 Carolyn's father's notes detail an operation performed on Lucan. 599 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,400 What's that bit there, then? That's Lucan's nose? 600 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,480 That's Lucan's nose from the base. 601 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,360 I see. Looking up the nostrils. 602 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,240 The Holy Grail for me, 603 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:45,880 as it emerged in the '90s, 604 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,160 was the Lucan story. 605 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,960 And I wanted to get into the river and go and find the gold nugget. 606 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,880 When you told me the story about the... The brown envelope. Yeah. 607 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,640 Oh, I mean, it set all my journalistic bells ringing. 608 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,160 It was like St Paul's Cathedral, I was like, "Wow." 609 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,920 I mean, when you first meet people it's really difficult, isn't it? 610 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,760 Because you don't know how you're going to... 611 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:06,960 How you're going to get on. 612 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,080 I'll be very honest. I hid a lot of stuff from you. 613 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,160 Well, I know that. 614 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,920 Because I couldn't trust you, I didn't know you. 615 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,280 But I trusted you because I didn't have anywhere else to go, really. 616 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,120 Yeah, he is a rock. 617 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,360 He's my rock, actually. 618 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,960 Don't tell him that, but... 619 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,360 ..you know, I need him, don't I? 620 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,800 Where are you? You're under there. 621 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,160 I assessed the evidence on this case slowly over the '90s 622 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,680 and into the early 2000s. 623 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:47,720 HE BLOWS DUST 624 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,320 We know that the English Channel was scoured by police on both sides, 625 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,240 patrol boats up and down. 626 00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,760 Not a body, not a clue. 627 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:05,920 How could someone just fall off the face of the earth, you know? 628 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,640 Bumph, disappear. 629 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,440 Lucan, what's going on? Are you coming here? 630 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,840 HE WHISTLES 631 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,360 Lucan? 632 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,440 Good boy. Sit. 633 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,560 Every now and again, sightings would pop up. 634 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,080 It started in France, in Cherbourg. 635 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,680 The police inquiries have centred on the Grand Hotel 636 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,160 close to Cherbourg Harbour. 637 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,720 He come to restaurant with a girl, a.... 638 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:38,560 With a girl? Yeah. Young girl, French girl. 639 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,680 But you are satisfied that who you served a meal to is Lord Lucan. 640 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,160 Yes. Yes, yes. 641 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,600 And then there was a sighting over in Jersey. 642 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,080 A perfectly respectable Englishman 643 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,080 with amazing resemblances to Lord Lucan. 644 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,280 Anyone elegant with a moustache, 645 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,120 you'd find ten press photographers on your doorstep. 646 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,960 Lord Lucan's been sighted again, I understand? Yes, he has. 647 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:03,680 He was seen in a cafe somewhere in South Africa. 648 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,360 Where was he? God, he's been everywhere. 649 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:07,880 He's been everywhere! 650 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,400 The press, they'd all go down, find nothing whatsoever, 651 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,480 get drunk as skunks and come back to London absolutely pissed 652 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,760 out of their brains, which is a usual media reaction. 653 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,920 Seychelles, I went to Seychelles twice. 654 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,080 Mutare, Komatipoort... 655 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,600 Canada. 656 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,360 It was the single case that I spent most time on. 657 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,840 Sordid domestic murder - 658 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,560 people thought the aristocracy were above that. 659 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,800 Absolutely captured the public's imagination. 660 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,080 Suddenly the phone would ring and we'd get sightings. 661 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:56,960 South America, the Far East, 662 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,800 on a farm in Mexico. 663 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,640 He was seen crying into his prawns in Mozambique. 664 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,600 Transport cafe on the M1. 665 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,280 A depressed butcher in Brisbane. 666 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,080 He was in Japan, he was in the Philippines, 667 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,880 he was in Madagascar, Trinidad... 668 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,800 A man who lived in a camper van in New Zealand. 669 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,880 We spoke to Roger's neighbour. 670 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,960 She saw this photo of Lord Lucan 671 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,120 and is convinced he's living down the road. 672 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,160 I'm sure that was who he is, because he's trying to make out 673 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,400 that he's a very poor man. Poor man, my foot. 674 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,280 He sleeps in a Land Rover and has a pet possum named Redfern. 675 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,880 Are you Lord Lucan? No. 676 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,840 As time went on, people had given up on it being a serious investigation 677 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,880 to find a criminal on the run. 678 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,480 This, we're told, is Lord Lucan. 679 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,160 Living the life of a hippie in Goa 680 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,760 under the name of Jungle Barry. 681 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,600 Both sporting an aristocratic forehead, 682 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,400 left parting and distinctive eyebrows. 683 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,520 Lucky couldn't live outside of Belgravia and Mayfair. 684 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,440 The idea that he could live in Goa... 685 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,480 I mean, when he came to the South of France, 686 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,160 you could see him a mile away, an Englishman abroad. 687 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,720 You know, that charming way of not really knowing where you are. 688 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:14,800 But looking down at these people 689 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,560 and their strange habits. 690 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,280 There's no way. 691 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,640 Today, five years later, no-one knows whether he's alive or dead. 692 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,240 Lucan disappeared a decade ago... 693 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,400 20 years ago, Lord Lucan... 694 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,440 It was madness. 695 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,600 A horrific murder moves into a farce. 696 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,960 He was last seen running round on Shergar in the Bull Ring. 697 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,520 How do you investigate something like this? 698 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,880 If you're watching, Lord Lucan, please, you know, 699 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,400 give us a ring, because Gary... 700 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,480 Sometimes you need a lucky break. 701 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,760 My intuition, as his son, is that he died within about 12 hours of... 702 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,280 Of the event. 703 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,440 But... And that raises a whole load of questions 704 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,160 which I don't know where to go with. 705 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,560 A documentary had been on television. 706 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:10,960 Lucan's son was in it. 707 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,960 When that went out, 708 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,680 a woman called Marianne Robey was watching it at home. 709 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,960 George Bingham, he just said, 710 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,880 "I wish I knew what the truth was." 711 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,360 I suddenly thought, "Well, I remember sending you to Africa, 712 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,120 "I know your dad was alive. I could tell you some things." 713 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,520 So I set off trying to contact him, 714 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,560 which proved very difficult. 715 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,040 I tried a few journalists, 716 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,320 sent out three or four emails, 717 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,000 I was contacted by, erm, Glen Campbell of the BBC. 718 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,880 So, we just chat for a bit, really. 719 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,160 But not recording, are we not...? 720 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,720 Yeah, we are recording, yeah. 721 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:51,320 He wanted to do an interview, which I was very reluctant, 722 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,960 I honestly didn't feel that comfortable about saying too much. 723 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,280 Shall I just put it there...? 724 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:57,640 Yeah, sorry, I'll just... 725 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,720 She didn't want to be on camera. 726 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:02,200 So, what was your job? 727 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,000 In '79, I answered an ad and moved into Aspinall's. 728 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,360 Mr Aspinall's secretary, I was more a secretary for the casino. 729 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,240 Mr Aspinall's Clermont Club 730 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:15,760 in one of the last private houses in Berkeley Square. 731 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,640 This is the restaurant. 732 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,600 John Aspinall ran casinos. 733 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:20,960 Pick them out now. 734 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,080 He ran Howletts Zoo. 735 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,000 These animals are not tame. 736 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,440 We're not the boss. 737 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,240 As, no doubt, you can see. 738 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,320 And, he was a very, very good friend of Lord Lucan's. 739 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,600 He was a very good boss, very loyal, very kind. 740 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,240 Did me favours which I appreciated. 741 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,520 And had you heard of Lord Lucan and the whole mystery? 742 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,400 Maybe something had come in the news in '74, 743 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,680 I mean, I would have been 19. 744 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,200 In 1979, I was asked to be involved 745 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,760 in arranging for Lord Lucan's children 746 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,280 to go to visit him in Africa. 747 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,200 The bits I had to do was to arrange flights for them, 748 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,040 passports for them. 749 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,440 They had to have a second passport 750 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,360 because, otherwise, it would be stamped and their mother, 751 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,280 Lady Lucan, wasn't to know about this trip. 752 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,840 It was made clear to me that, if she were to get in touch 753 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:32,200 for any reason, there was no mention to be made about them going off. 754 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,400 There was a court order that the children would be wards of court 755 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,920 and that their guardian would be Lady Lucan's sister 756 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,960 and her husband Bill Shand Kydd. 757 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,560 Bill took them out of school a week early 758 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,440 without Lady Lucan being aware. 759 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,960 What I had been told, and what I believed, was that they would 760 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,680 believe that they were going to a safari at Tree Tops in Kenya. 761 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,560 And that their father just wanted to see them from a distance. 762 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,280 Not to, not for them to be aware and, therefore, 763 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,760 not for them to have to keep secrets. 764 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,440 Do you think that was odd? 765 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,800 I thought it was a little odd at the time, perhaps a bit elaborate, 766 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,360 But I didn't... 767 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,520 I didn't question it. 768 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,480 Perhaps that why he liked me, though, because I was quite silent. 769 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,520 Somebody that worked for John Aspinall, 770 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,120 she was charged with booking flights for the children. 771 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,520 Get them out to Africa so that Lucan could look at them, 772 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,200 but for them not to know that he was there looking at them. 773 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,400 I believe that as much as I believe 774 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,920 that I'm the man who went to St Helena in 1821 775 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,720 and assassinated Napoleon. 776 00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:56,520 Bullshit. 777 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,440 Two trips I specifically arranged, which were between '70... 778 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,920 You, you meet this lady and when I met this lady I believed her. 779 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,720 She's, she's easily not believed. 780 00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:10,280 But she's very believable when you meet her, credible. 781 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,360 I was in on the conversations 782 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,520 when John Aspinall and Sir James Goldsmith 783 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,680 were talking about 784 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,560 the fact that Lord Lucan had requested to see the children. 785 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,680 Sir James Goldsmith said, "Absolutely not, this won't work. 786 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,280 "He can't..." You know, "He can't see them, 787 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,960 "he's going to have to wait." 788 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:31,720 Mr Aspinall said, "He won't wait. 789 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:33,600 "If he doesn't see the children soon, 790 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,640 "he's just going to come back and risk everything." 791 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,720 Lord Lucan, I remember him calling, it was a Friday afternoon 792 00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:45,560 and Mr Aspinall had already gone down to Howletts. 793 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,600 The call came in. 794 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,640 "I've been asked to let you know that everything's been put in place 795 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:52,920 "and he'll be in touch." 796 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,560 How did he sound? 797 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,880 Very well spoken. What we would call "posh", I guess. 798 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,000 Do you think he's alive or dead? 799 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,280 I have a feeling he might be alive. 800 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960 Well, he knew from the start anyway that he was in Africa. 801 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,760 He had arranged for him to go to Africa. 802 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,920 Aspinall was rescuing gorillas from Africa. 803 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,960 Lord Lucan, he was a great friend of yours. 804 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,080 You actually say, "If he had begged asylum from me, 805 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,160 "he would have got it." 806 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,920 He would have got asylum regardless of the consequences, 807 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,560 as far as I'm concerned, because you don't have friends 808 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,040 unless you help them when they're in that position. 809 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,880 In fact, the very meaning and essence of friendship 810 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,080 is to help a man when he's in exactly a position like that. 811 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,240 Friends skip together, face the battle regardless, side by side. 812 00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:39,520 Loyalty like that is the one crucial factor. 813 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,040 And I mean, of course, if you're going to turn your friend 814 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,600 over to the authorities, be it the law, 815 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,040 you're no longer a person in my view. 816 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,560 A former Coldstream Guards officer, David Hardy. 817 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,720 He was unfortunately killed in a road accident in the late '70s. 818 00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:11,960 And the first police officer on the scene went through his pockets 819 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,040 and found an address book. 820 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,600 David Hardy's widow gave me this address book. 821 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,720 Hardy was an acquaintance of Lucan, 822 00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:29,840 on the fringes of the gambling set. 823 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,720 Under A is Aspinall's. 824 00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:37,080 You get to see the Clermont Club, Berkeley Square, SW1. 825 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,800 And then when you get under L... 826 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,000 ..you have here Lord Lucan, 827 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,800 care of Hotel Les Ambassadeurs, 828 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,320 Beira, Mozambique. 829 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,200 When we went to see Hardy's widow, 830 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,080 she gave us the address book 831 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,080 and said she had given it to her husband as a birthday present 832 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,320 around about '77, '78. 833 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,280 So, the question arises, 834 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,560 why would you put the address 835 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:17,680 of someone in an address book three or four years after he disappeared? 836 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,080 1984, I went to Beira, and of course... 837 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,960 ..he was gone. 838 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,400 We've got Hardy and the address book. 839 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:36,920 Marianne Robey. 840 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,920 Everything is pointing now towards Africa. 841 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,560 As always, I can't find... 842 00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:46,720 There you go. 843 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,440 Then I found out that Scotland Yard 844 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,640 had drawn up their own intelligence report. 845 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,440 "Recent developments have included 846 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,960 "alleged sightings of Lucan in Southern Africa." 847 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,440 Written in 2002, it drew together credible intelligence 848 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,760 that Lucan has got away to Africa. 849 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,200 And I got hold of it. 850 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,120 Did you share it with Neil? 851 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,320 I did. I did share it with Neil. 852 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,400 It's unbelievable. 853 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,320 It blew away all the established bullshit. 854 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,400 They're sort of talking about what they might want to do next. 855 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,040 Covert operations, for example. 856 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,880 There's police officers that wanted to carry on with this investigation. 857 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:33,800 It was shut down for whatever reason. 858 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,440 But it's here, it's all here. 859 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,120 And it gave a name. Lord Lucan had taken the name John Crawford. 860 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,160 And then something happened that we couldn't have predicted. 861 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,640 George was seven when Sandra was killed, exactly the same age as me. 862 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,240 He wanted to draw a line under everything, 863 00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:03,200 and I can understand that. 864 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,880 George wanted his father declared dead. 865 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,520 He put a tiny little advert in the West End Extra, 866 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,280 "Application for the granting of a presumption of death certificate." 867 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,440 He rejected my report that said that 868 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,720 him and his sister were flown out to Africa 869 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:29,880 so his father could watch him from afar. 870 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,920 I'd guess he had access to a boat 871 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,200 and he went a little way out into the English Channel 872 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,080 and sank it with himself on it. 873 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,800 It was about inheritance. 874 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,760 George would become the eighth Earl of Lucan. 875 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,600 For Neil, it would mean Lord Lucan was dead. 876 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,120 I didn't think he was dead. 877 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,000 I didn't want him declared dead. 878 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,400 I was one of the few people that could contest presumption of death 879 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,280 because I'm a member of the victim's family. 880 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,800 I applied to the High Court to intervene. 881 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,840 The court date was set. 882 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,120 And I had the intelligence report, 883 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,720 it was leaked to Glen, 884 00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:13,320 that would blow the whole case apart. 885 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,040 I sat in the High Court. 886 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:23,440 The judge said to me, 887 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,840 "Mr Berriman, have you got anything you'd like to say?" 888 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,240 And I said, "Yes, your Honour. 889 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:33,480 "I believe that Lord Lucan was alive in 2004." 890 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,960 And George Bingham's face, because he was sitting next to me, 891 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,440 went like stone. 892 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,480 And he said to me, "Where have you got this information from?" 893 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,960 And I said, "It's a confidential police report." 894 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,480 "Right." 895 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,320 Everything went silent, and, "Do you have it?" 896 00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,000 I said, "No." 897 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,800 Neil could not show that intelligence report. 898 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,640 The person who'd given it to me was a serving Scotland Yard Officer, 899 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,920 and he or she would have lost their jobs, their pensions. 900 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,240 There was a cost here. 901 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,400 I did think to myself, 902 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,600 I'm never going to get another chance like this, am I? 903 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,160 Well, there you go, can you imagine? 904 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,680 Can you imagine what the impact of that would have been everywhere? 905 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:32,920 The court this morning declared Richard John Bingham, my father, 906 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,680 known to most people as Lord Lucan, er, 907 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,160 to be dead for all legal purposes. 908 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,960 It was like having a rug pulled from under your feet. 909 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,600 I want to take this time to applaud the efforts of Mr Neil Berriman 910 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,440 to secure justice for his mother, 911 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,960 our beloved family nanny. 912 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,400 Nonetheless, I'm very pleased with the result that we achieved today. 913 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,120 I would all, you know, be very grateful 914 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,560 if we all moved on and find, found another Loch Ness Monster. 915 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:56,720 Can I just ask from a personal...? 916 00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:58,360 Well, he got what he wanted. 917 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,400 Do we now refer to you as Lord Lucan? 918 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,240 I would now be the eighth Earl of Lucan, or referred to as Lord Lucan. 919 00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:09,920 So, of course, having him declared dead almost gives the police 920 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,720 an excuse to think, "Well, we can push that away now. 921 00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:16,240 "There's no further to go on this. We don't need to do any more work." 922 00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:18,160 I am the son of Sandra Rivett. 923 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,440 I'm a builder and by no means used to these matters 924 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,800 but my intrigue moves me forward. 925 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,600 I know that the convenient drowning of Lord Lucan is not true. 926 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,280 Neil, what do you think happened to Lord Lucan? 927 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,680 Erm, he escaped. 928 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,360 Thank you, thank you. 929 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,400 This was a dark hour. 930 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,960 It was an emotional time. It was awful. 931 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,840 I nearly had about two years of being on antidepressants, didn't I? 932 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,040 I just remember you being completely... 933 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,280 You were like a different person. 934 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,520 You could just tell with the tone of voice, there was just nothing. 935 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,160 You were very angry. I remember you being very angry. 936 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,200 Angry. Yeah, I was angry, yeah. 937 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,360 Yeah, it's difficult for Melissa, of course it is. 938 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,120 Her dad's always had the bee in his bonnet, if you like. 939 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,800 Melissa was only a teenager, so... 940 00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,560 Do you remember this, this whole presumption of death 941 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,440 and then what happened afterwards? 942 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,120 I do remember it, 943 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,160 and I remember actually, at the time, not wanting to watch it, 944 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,200 and I didn't watch it for ages. 945 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,720 Because...it was hard for Dad. 946 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,640 Yeah, you know, it's been... 947 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,760 It's gone on for so long, 948 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,240 you kind of think... 949 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,880 .."OK, it's never really going to come to an end." 950 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,360 We're too far, we're too involved with it now. 951 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,760 You can't stop something that you're too involved in. 952 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,320 Especially if you've got a belief. 953 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,840 You can't just... It's not like a tap you can turn off. 954 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,600 24 hours a day, seven days a week. 955 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:40,480 He's pushing himself, 956 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,960 he's pushing his own mental health. 957 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,520 But for what purpose? 958 00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:00,440 This is the closest, really, we can get to her, isn't it? 959 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,400 Yeah, I think she fitted in well here. It's, erm... 960 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,000 Where's the house from here? 961 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,640 Just over there. 962 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,400 I sometimes feel better by coming here. 963 00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:23,000 This is where she enjoyed her last eight weeks. 964 00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,800 I imagine her to be very kind of fun and bubbly, and friendly. 965 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,320 Outgoing. Mm. 966 00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,080 Yeah. 967 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:34,480 But you're the same, aren't you? 968 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:36,880 Hmm. 969 00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,080 You and Kim have been through hell, so I'm sorry for that. 970 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,600 No, you don't need to apologise. 971 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,720 But we're past the point of no return now. 972 00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,440 I am convinced that he got away. 973 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,760 And that he survived for a while somewhere. 974 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,000 Lord Lucan? I'm sorry, 975 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,400 but obviously I cannot divulge my whereabouts at this time. 976 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,080 That would be quite out of the question. 977 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,640 I definitely knew, in 2000, that he was still alive. 978 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,480 I was pretty sure in 2005. 979 00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,680 Is he lying still undiscovered somewhere here in the Newhaven area? 980 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,400 Your adopted mother set you a bit of a challenge, really, didn't she? 981 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,400 Yeah, she did give me a puzzle. 982 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,000 But I wonder whether she thought 983 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,160 that I'd actually put the last piece in? 984 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,800 Well, this is massive. 985 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,080 If this man's correct... 986 00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:01,440 ..he's alive. 987 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,360 To catch a criminal, you have to think like a criminal. 988 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,240 Check, check, check, check. 989 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:13,600 Max is 45 minutes on these. 990 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,520 That's him. 991 00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,520 I know you want it to be. 992 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,440 And then he goes, "What if I am Lord Lucan? 993 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,880 "What the fuck are you going to do about it?" 994 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:25,160 That man, back there... 995 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:26,640 BOTH: Is Lord Lucan. 996 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:27,920 You know what? What? 997 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,400 Let's go and get this fucker. 123631

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