All language subtitles for CrimeFeed S01 E13_track3_[eng]

[theme music playing]

The Curious Case
of Natalia Grace,

Natalia Speaks.

Even now, so many questions
still unanswered.

What in the world did we just
witness with our own eyes?

So much to unpack
and all questions answered

hopefully tonight,

directly from the team

who put these
documentaries together,

the producers
and investigators

behind this amazing case.

We will have
never-before-seen footage

here exactly what it was like
to be in those rooms

during the show's
most explosive moments.

And we get firsthand accounts
of some shocking times

behind the scenes,
an action-packed show.

But first, as always,
investigative reporter,

Mara S. Campo,
and private investigator,

Derrick Levasseur,

what do you make of that
last minute bombshell?

It's like...
I feel like my head exploded.

I was so excited
and happy for Natalia

that it seemed like she had
finally found her family

and all the siblings and all
the love she was getting,

and then you hear
that things may not be

as great as they seem.

My heart broke for her.

But then,
it also raises questions.

You know, Natalia has been
the common denominator

in all of these families,
so what's going on?

Yeah. When I saw the Mans
and the dynamic

they had with Natalia,
I said, "This is it.

She's found her forever home."

And then that last 30 seconds,
I was just sitting there

watching it going,
I can't believe it.

-[Nancy] Like bombed.
-[Derrick] Yup.

Felt like a bomb just dropped,

because we go through
the entire series

looking for her to be happy,

finding out,
what is the truth?

How old is she?

Is she a con artist?
Is she a child?

All these questions
just hitting you

and you see a resolution.

In the end,
you think you know the answer

and then bam,
your head just blows open.

[Mara] You know,
she got her name changed,

she got adopted formally.

It seemed like
the happy ending

that everybody
was waiting for for her.

But it also reminded me
of the fact

that everything
she's been through,

you know, we just learned

in this series recently,
her true age.

Up until now,
that was the big mystery.

Is this an adult psychopath

posing as a child
or is this really a child?

Now we know
this was a child all along.

So let's say
she is a problem child.

She is a problem
for the Mans family,

after everything
she's been through,

you can certainly understand
why she's traumatized.

And I think Beth Karas,
who's joining us here

in just a bit explains
the challenges
of this case best

after working on it for years.

Let's hear
what she had to say.

I have been on a rollercoaster
with this case, right?

I had been up and down
one side,

the other side seeing things
from both sides,

trying to figure out,
who's telling the truth?

Is Michael lying?

Is Natalia lying?

Or maybe they are both
victims of the same monster.

Incredible.
And like I was saying

before that little clip,
you know,

it's one of those things
where we can acknowledge

what she went through.
I think the Barnetts...

I agree with you,
Michael, Kristine,

I got no use for 'em.

But the reality is,
with all these other families

seeing some of the things,
especially with the bombshell

we just talked about
at the end,

could it be true
that she experienced
a horrific childhood,

but there may have been
some things from her childhood

that led her
to these behaviors,

which obviously not--

[Nancy] I gotta back you up
just a moment.

-[Derrick] Hit me with it.
-When you're talking about,

who's telling the truth,

the moment that Barnett,

Michael Barnett comes in,

and he's blinking
and he's twisting

and he won't look at her
and he won't look at
the camera,

he won't look at anybody,
you can tell right then

he's about to drop a lie.

So, can I just ask you,

why would they lie
about anything?

Why would they "re-age"?

Who made that term up anyway?

What is re-age?

That is a lie.

That is a fraud.

I can't listen to anything
those two people say

because they lie
from the beginning.

[Mara] Well, no,
you're absolutely right.

And when you now
think about everything

that we've heard from them

in the context
of the fact that they knew,

we know that they had exams,

they had the dental exam,
they had hospital exams

that confirmed
Natalia's true age

and they still moved forward
with the re-age.

When I heard that dentist say,

"She's got baby teeth,
people."

That was it for me.

I didn't need to hear
anything else.

Guys, one of the biggest
takeaways of Natalia Speaks,

is that Michael
and Kristine Barnett

knew Natalia was a child.

Let's listen
to Natalia's dentist

who confirms her age.

[Dr. Gossweiler] This is way
too many baby teeth

to be an adult.

It's indisputable.

You can't fake teeth
coming in like this.

So when Mom and Natalia left,

Mom knew that Natalia
was around eight or nine,

which is right in the range

of what she said
that she was.

Oh, her age was...
They legally changed her age?

Oh, they tried to...
Oh, I wasn't aware of that.

And what was it changed to?

Oh, really?

Twenty-two.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's a...
That's a big jump.

Nothing on the x-ray
that we took

that would show
that she could be anywhere

near 15 years older.

Wow. That seems crazy.

So Kristine Barnett knew
Natalia's age

when she started
telling people

that she suspected
Natalia was an adult.

And here is the timeline
of the exams.

So in June of 2010,

this is months after
they've picked her up,

even before the adoption
was finalized,

there was an exam
that said her estimated age

was eight years old.

In May of 2011,
she had this dental exam

that we just heard
from the dentist.

June of 2012,
she had another exam,

which included
an endocrinologist

that said that she was about
10 or 11 years old.

And that same year,
they had her re-aged to 22.

[Nancy] Why do we keep
saying re-age?

Is that, number one,
even a word?

But what it boils down to me

is an official lie

on court documents
that you fill out.

That is fraud.
That is a crime.

And I can't help but wonder,

"Why would you lie about
the age of this little child

unless you were doing
something nefarious,

something wrong?"

So therefore,
I can't believe anything

either one of them say.

I think the series
did a great job

of pointing out
a potential motive, right?

We're seeing in this,
as you just laid out here

with the dentist,
the previous doctor,

they all confirmed her age.

It really wasn't up
for that much debate.

But Kristine wanted to create
this another child prodigy

just like her son, Jacob.

And when that didn't pan out,
she realized

there was no other book deal
in her future

and decided,
"Listen, we gotta re-age her

to get her out of the house

'cause this is not
what I had planned."

So it's unfortunate
that that's the situation.

Well, another lie
told by the Barnetts

that was exposed
in this documentary

is what really happened
at the dairy farm

the day Kristine says
Natalia tried to push her

into an electric fence.

A never-before-seen footage,
we hear from Natalia

on what she says
really happened.

She says, this was right
after Kristine made her stand

in one place for several days,

which is very painful
for someone

with this type of dwarfism,
with nothing to eat or drink.

Here's Natalia,
who by the way,

was under a gag order
during the criminal trial,

which is why we haven't heard
from her until now.

She told me,
"Natalia, you need to get up."

I told her, "I can't."

My feet were actually
bleeding too,

because I started getting
holes in the shoes that I had.

I couldn't get up anymore.

I was already sick
throwing up blood

because I haven't ate.

I'm dehydrated, starved.

I was sick as a dog.

She just kept telling me,
"You need to get up."

She tried to help me get up,

and we both fell.

And as soon as we went down,

she said, "Why did you try
to throw me into
the electric fence?"

"I didn't try to throw you
into an electric fence."

And then someone that works
at the farm saw it,

and they called the police
because I got sick

and I was throwing up blood.

And Natalia says she was taken
to the hospital

and treated for dehydration.

You know, there was also
the knife incident,

Michael waking up
in the middle of the night

with Natalia standing
at the foot of the bed

holding a knife.

Is that true?

This is what Natalia says.

For one...

their bed was literally
at the height

of, like, right here
when I was really little.

And you're all saying
I was standing

at the end of the bed?

I could barely even see over
the bed post that they had.

Second, I ain't that strong.

I'm an 8-year-old,
37-pound little girl.

If I tried to even stab you
or anything,

I wouldn't have been able
to do it.

And literally, I can't...
Like, I can't even grip it.

It's just...
It's loose in my hand

and I can't hold it
for that long.

And it gets tiring

because I'm pretty much,
like, using the muscle

that I can't really use.

Bottom line,
what she just said,

she would not even have
the physical capability

to drag the mom
into an electric fence

or to commit, say, stabbing
attack on her parents.

I just don't see it.

Well, I think
what the Barnetts did

very successfully was play
on existing fears

and misunderstandings
that people have

about those with dwarfism.

If this was not a child
with dwarfism,

would anyone look
at a 7-year-old and say,

"Oh, they're terrorizing
that entire family.

They are stalking them
at night with knives."

[Nancy]
A really good point, Mara.

They may be 22 years old,
there would be no question.

So they played
on these existing fears.

They ripped plot lines
from movie, The Orphan,

and it was successful.

It made people question

whether this was
a demon-possessed child

or a sociopathic adult
pretending to be a child.

[Nancy] Okay.
That never happened to me.

I just thought she may have
been lying about her age.

[Mara] But still
a sociopathic adult...

-Yes.
-masquerading as a child.

-That's pretty scary.
-Yup.

-Yes, you're right.
-Yeah. Absolutely.

Something else I found really
interesting in all of this

is the comparisons between
these stories the Barnett's
told about Natalia

and the movie, The Orphan.

Now, as Natalia points out,

this movie
is about a Russian girl

adopted by an American family,

and the story
told by Kristine Barnett

perfectly mirrors the movie.

If we can pull up
some of the trailer?

Now, you can see it
for yourself.

Something's happening to cause
Esther to feel this way.

[screaming]

[Sister Abigail]I think there's something
wrong with Esther.

We need to know
what we're dealing with.

Trouble does have a way
of finding her.

[Kate] What kind of trouble?

[eerie music playing]

And as you can see,
the similarities are striking,

a Russian girl,
Natalia's Ukrainian.

Older than she appears,

threatening behavior against
other children in the family,

standing by the bed
with a knife.

All these stories the Barnetts
told, all just like the movie.

[Nancy] So if you have to pick
between Michael Barnett

and Natalia Grace,
I think I'd have to go

-with believing Natalia...
-[Derrick] Agreed.

[Nancy] before him.

Wouldn't you agree with that
about the knife incident?

Yeah. Well, we've seen,
I mean the... These...

The series
has brilliantly laid out

so many contradictions.

I'll call them things
that he claims that are not--

-[Nancy] You mean lies?
-Well, they're... You know--

[Nancy] Because I will call it
what it is.

But he's continuing
to claim them,

for example, saying that he
never met the adoptive family.

And she said, "Well, you were
back there in the room

with them
for quite some time."

So... And you were on an email
thread with them.

So why are you saying that
this was a closed adoption,

you didn't even know
their names?

So they've done
a very good job

of laying out the fact
that Michael is far

from truthful and forthcoming.

And so whether or not, we know
Natalia's telling the truth,

we know Michael is a liar.

Well, this is what
the Barnetts say...

Well, Michael Barnett,
he goes,

"Look, there was
the birth family,

then there were the Ciccones,

then there were the Barnetts,

and now we're
on the fourth family

and they have problems.

So do all the families
have the problem

or does Natalia Grace
have the problem?

That's what
they're gonna be arguing.

Yeah, I think it's...
And that's what I was
going through earlier.

It could be a combination
of both where...

Like you said, the... From
what Natalia had been through,

she may be lied
here and there,

but absolutely these families

had some ulterior motive
for sure.

So now we have seen evidence.

The Barnetts did know
Natalia's age,

lied about it,
and allegedly abused Natalia.

Why no charges
against the mom?

Up next, Beth Karas joins us

to talk about that
and never-before-seen footage

from inside the court case.

And later,
what about that last twist,

the phone call from the Mans?

Why do they too

want to get rid
of Natalia Grace?

Is everybody lying
except her?

And does it change anything
we believe

about Natalia Grace?

We have seemingly seen proof

the Barnetts knew
Natalia was a child

when they left her
to live alone in an apartment,

but the Barnetts
are walking free.

And now,
never-before-seen footage

of what happened right
after Michael Barnett's found

not guilty on neglect charges.

During the trial,
I remember seeing Michael,

and when I looked at him,
he looked straight at me.

And he smiled at me,

like just...

And I'm just like, "What?

You know what you did?

Like, you really...
You're gonna smile?

You're gonna smile at me?"

It felt so torturous

that we knew he was guilty

and he was able to walk away.

There was no justice served.

It felt degrading.
It felt gross.

It was almost
like being raped.

That's what happened

immediately after Michael
Barnett was found not guilty.

But Kristine
never faced Lady Justice.

And with us now,
investigative reporter

and long-time colleague,
Beth Karas,

legal analyst and narrator
throughout the documentary,

Beth Karas, thank you so much
for being with us.

Why is Kristine Barnett
walking free?

It's so nice to be here
with you,

all of you, thank you.

This is quite a ride,
this whole story.

Kristine was charged
along with Michael.

The cases were severed,
he was tried first I...

And he was given a subpoena,

he was gonna testify
against her presumably, right?

He'd be compelled
to testify against her,

but otherwise
the evidence was the same.

A new prosecution team
took over

and I suspect they thought,

"Yeah. It's the same evidence.

Even with Michael,
he has credibility issues.

We probably can't prove it.

We don't wanna just waste
our resources

and go through this again."

But it's interesting because
the jury foreperson told us

that everybody believed
that he was guilty,

but the way
the judge charged them,

they had to find him
not guilty,

which to me
sounds like they...

It felt she was a dependent,
as a disabled person,

but she did...
She survived, right?

I mean, she did get
a little bit of help,

so maybe it didn't rise
to the level

of, you know,
complete abandonment.

I mean, she never was...
Her life wasn't in danger.

She was never close
to death for example.

Well, but they weren't allowed
to raise the question

about her age...

Oh, no, the judge
kept her out.

-Right. And so he--
-Which is the whole point
to me, Mara.

Right. But then the defense
very successfully argued,

"This is an adult.

She's capable
of taking care of herself.

And she can choose to be
estranged from her family

if she wants to."

But now that we know

that she was in fact a child
at that time,

can they face charges
of child abuse, child neglect?

And now that we know
they knew her age,

are they guilty
of defrauding the court?

[Kara] Well, that,
I definitely believe

they perpetrated fraud
on the court.

The statute of limitations
has probably expired on that,

but I don't know for sure.

Kristine's case was dismissed
with prejudice.

Now at that time,
the dismissal

was for the abandonment
of a dependent.

Can they resurrect
the charges depend...

Abandonment of a child?

Maybe. But again the statute
of limitations

is it's...
Has probably expired.

Speaking of the abuse,
you gotta think about

Natalia's story about
her being pepper sprayed

by Kristine
as a form of compliance.

Watch this.

I was only, like,
six or seven years old,

and Kristine tried to give me
a physics paper

and I'm like,
"I don't know what I'm doing.

Like, I don't...
Like what is this?"

And she's like,
"I know you know this

and you're gonna do it."

And then she walked away.

[ominous music playing]

[Natalia] But I was stuck.

And...

I guess she just got so mad

because I was telling her,
like, "I don't know this."

And she pepper sprayed me

right in the face.

She's like, "That's what
it's gonna feel like

every time that you do this."

Yeah.
And like as I was saying,

we have experiences before
as a police officer,

we have to be pepper sprayed
as part of our training.

I can tell you
it's extremely painful,

to have a situation
where you're using this

as a form of punishment,
I can't imagine it to a child.

You know, not only
with the Barnetts, re-age,

i.e. lie,
lie on official documents.

Why did they wanna get rid
of her, Beth?

And why did the judge
go along with it?

And in one stroke of the pen,

I believe you said this
in the documentary,
it was really good.

She went from being
a 7 or 8-year-old

to being able to buy booze,

vote, and what else
did you say?

-It was really good.
-Drive a car.

[Nancy] That, yes,
that's what you said.

Right.
All of a sudden an adult.

Would... And then abandon
with no coping mechanisms

in an apartment
that wasn't modified

for a disabled small person,

it just broke my heart
to see that.

Well, the whole re-aging,

we think, we can only sort of
interpret their conduct,

their actions, we don't...
We're not inside their heads

was that, she became
an albatross

or... And she became a burden,

she needed a lot
of medical care.

She was gonna be expensive,
she wasn't the genius

that Kristine hoped
she would be

so she could have another
Spark book, Spark Two.

You know, it just...
It didn't work out.

And so rather than risk
her reputation

which was growing at the time

in a... In a...
In certain circles,

she said,
"Let's just get rid of her.

Let's not give her
back up for adoption,

because that will hurt
her reputation

that she gave away."

Oh, wait,
I'm starting to see it.

So it would ruin
her reputation

as this activist.

-[Beth] Supermom.
-[Derrick] Supermom.

Yes.

So you think
that's the motive,

because that actually
suddenly fits for me?

Yes, and we do get
some of that from Michael,

because Michael does say that
Kristine was very concerned

about her image like...
She had written out a one...

You remember this in the--

She called herself
the Oprah of Autism, right?

Right. And that she said
she wrote all the reasons

why she qualified
for sainthood.

And all of the money she got,

more than half
a million dollars

-for the book was her money...
-[Derrick] The Spark.

not his and he had to help
support the family,

but that money was hers.

I mean, she was a very
selfish person, it appears

from everything Michael has--

So then, in her mind,
she had to change her age

and put her away
in an apartment

as opposed to just putting
her back up for adoption.

Yeah. Or get her
institutionalized permanently,

or get her in prison,
something like that.

Or something worse,

put her in an apartment
complex like that?

Well, what gets me
is how young Natalia Grace was

during all of this.

The lead prosecutor
on the abandonment case,

Jackie Starbuck
sums up how old she was,

during all of the lies
told by the Barnetts.

So if all of that
is true about her age,

that means Natalia
came into the country in 2008

when she was four,
almost five.

Adopted by the Barnetts
in 2010 when she was seven.

Natalia was eight when the age
change petition was filed

and was placed
in the apartment
in Westfield.

In July of 2013

when she was placed
in the Lafayette apartment,

she would've been nine

a few months shy
of turning 10.

What that means
is that Natalia was a child

living on her own.

A child this age
living all on her own?

Can you imagine
a child living alone

by themselves
at just eight years old?

What was that like? Next.

And the highly-charged
meetings

between Natalia Grace
and Michael Barnett,

what was it like
to be in those rooms?

[man] And God is in control.

You understand that?

-That's it? God is in control.
-No. No, that was it.

We're not gonna... We're not
gonna do anything with...

-I tried, I tried, I tried...
-we're gonna do... It's okay.

I tried, I tried,
I tried, I tried.

[theme music playing]

I've got two children

and it would be
a cold day in H-E-L-L,

I would leave them alone,

especially at night.

So much can go sideways

and they didn't like
to be alone,

I cannot imagine them

living in an apartment

by themselves,
feeding themselves,

taking care of themselves
at age eight.

What if they got sick?

What if there was an intruder?

What if they were hungry
or they were tired

and they were afraid?

Not to mention an overwhelming
sense of abandonment.

And that's seemingly
what happened here.

My long-time colleague,
Beth Karas,

explains how the Barnetts
had Natalia "re-aged."

The only medical professionals

who believe that Natalia

was an adult
was the family doctor,

McLaren and a social worker,

therapist, Susan Whitten,

and they were the basis

for the application
to re-age Natalia.

We're talking about

making her
twenty-two from eight,

so that
with a stroke of his pen,

overnight,
she is eligible to drink,

drive, and vote, okay?

Like that is highly unusual.

Now, along with Beth Karas,
Ken Maxwell,

the EP of The Curious Case
of Natalia Grace

and also the investigator
at the heart of it all.

It is a real honor to meet you

because when I first heard
about the story,

I thought, "Ah,
a grown woman from Ukraine

has committed a fraud. Next."

Then I found out
the horrible, uncomfortable,

upsetting truth
that it wasn't a con,

it was just really
a little girl

who was "re-aged"
as Beth Karas has been saying,

it's horrible.

Absolutely horrendous

to put a child like that
in the predicament

that she was placed in,

with no safety of cover at all

into an apartment that, uh,

put her age aside
for a second,

as a disabled person

to not have the type

of accessories and equipment

in an apartment
that would facilitate

a person of her stature
to do simple things.

To use the toilet,
to reach a shelf,

to use the stove,

it's just
absolutely horrendous

to put a young child

-in that type of predicament.
-[Nancy] It's heartbreaking.

And in this case,
Michael Barnett

tries to make himself
the equal of Natalia

in terms of being a victim.

Bot had the same monster,

but he's a grown man
and we're talking about

a disabled child
with dwarfism.

This certainly,
many would argue, Ken,

did not make
Michael look good,

-none of this.
-[Ken] No. Yeah.

Was it hard to get him
to talk to you

and why do you think
he wanted to do this?

Well, first of all,
I agree with you,

there's no
equivalency whatsoever

in terms of victimology

between Natalia
and Michael Barnett.

He's a grown adult.

He was a husband of Kristine.

He had an absolute duty
to intercede at a minimum

witnessing physical abuse

and the kinds of abuse
that Natalia went through.

But in terms of Michael
and what motivated him,

I think both
with respect to Michael

and we didn't have
an opportunity to speak

-to Kristine and she may know.
-[Derrick] Mmm-hmm.

[Ken] There's a constant
need for validation,

he's in the public arena,

he certainly likes the camera

in terms of how he emotes,

sometimes very,
very energetically

and emotionally,

and so I think
he likes that attention,

-to be honest with you.
-[Derrick and Nancy] Yeah.

And some people
in that predicament,

as weird as it may sound
to some people,

like the limelight.

So here's what got me.

So as you said, her age
was changed from 8 to 22.

So Natalya was eight,
nine years old

living in an apartment alone.

Let's listen
to what she describes.

I remember my power
actually being shut off

in the Lafayette apartment

for, like, a week and it was
in the middle of summer,

like, it was burning hot.

I remember, like, everything
in the fridge went bad, like,

and I couldn't go
grocery shopping.

And I was scared.

I was really scared.

Like I could've died.

I grew up way too early,

I've had to learn lessons

that I should've learned

when maybe, like,
just now turning 20.

I should be learning
those life's lessons.

It felt literally, like,

I had to grow up overnight.

And for me too,
it was hearing how dangerous

that neighborhood was

when Natalia
and Cynthia went back

to the Lafayette apartment,
watch what happened.

So she had to do
all this on her own

when she was so much
more smaller and...

-Yeah.
-and less stable.

You know, she was...

-[gunshot]
-Jesus, that scared me.

-[Natalia] Are you for real?
-[Cynthia laughs]

-[producer] What was that?
-Please tell me

that was a firework.

-I was eight.
-Nine and a half?

I was eight. I turned nine
when I met you guys.

-Okay. So nine years old.
-Yeah.

And she was walking
through this area herself.

Anything coulda happened.

I thank God it though.

-[gunshot]
-Jesus.

-[gunshot]
-Oh. Okay.

I'm ready to go.

Incredible to hear that.

And by the way,
we had talked about this,

you know, during
our briefing, Mara,

and you had talked about
actually visiting this area.

-We--
-Yeah. I've...
I visited this neighborhood.

I went to the apartment
while I was reporting

on this story
several years ago.

We... I went in
what's called "door-knocking"

when you're a reporter you're
trying to get information

from people. This...
They're not exaggerating.

This is an incredibly
sketchy neighborhood.

I was afraid
to door-knock there

and then my fears
were confirmed

by some of the people
who answered doors.

It blows my mind
that a 9-year-old

was living there alone and...
But for the grace of God,

nothing terrible
happened to her.

[Beth] With no skills,

she wasn't going to school.

And at one point,

when her electricity
was turned off

and Michael was like
texting with Kristine,

I mean, she's like,
"She's an adult,

she can figure it out."

"She can figure it out
on her own."

That's what
Kristine's response was,

"She can figure it out."

And really,
Michael was instrumental

in getting the power restored
and getting her a phone,

because they had
taken her phone too.

They didn't want her
to have any kind of contact.

[Nancy] Wait, so at that time,
she had no phone?

-No, they have taken it.
-For a period.

For a period of time.

Am I supposed to like him

because he got the power
turned back on

in the apartment he put her in

with a gunfire outside,
that guy?

Yeah. I'm not feeling
any more warm feelings

toward him for that.

More with Beth and Ken

and more on "Dad"
Michael Barnett,

like the moment he describes

watching wife Kristine
beat Natalia Grace.

Beatings

were similar to this...

[grunts]

[Nancy] Plus,
about that phone call

from the Mans,

what happened to this
outwardly loving family?

[theme music playing]

I would love to get
into some of the moments

where we see
Michael Barnett getting,

I guess I would describe it
as very emotional.

Like the moment he left
the first meeting with Natalia

as his lawyer and Antwon Mans
started having words.

Let's look at that.

It's okay.

-[man] And God is in control.
-No.

-[man] You understand that?
-That's not.

-[man] God is in control.
-No. No, that was it.

[man] We're not gonna...
We're not gonna do anything

-with Michael--
-I tried. I tried.

-It's okay.
-I tried. I tried.

I tried. I tried. I tried.

I tried, and I tried,
and I tried

to get rid of that monster,
that piece of...

I'm trying to talk through
everything in thickness.

-[Antwon] Let me, let me...
Let me talk to you.
-No. No, no.

-[Antwon] Let talk to you.
Hold on a second.
-No. No.

-[Antwon] Let me talk to you.
-[Michael] No.

[Antwon] Come here
for a second.

[Michael] No. I can't...
I tried--

Right. We're trying...
Let me... Let me speak

to you for a second.

Can I do that?

Hold on, hold on.
Let him... Let him do that.

Let him do that.

Yeah. That was
a really interesting moment.

And there was that moment
when Michael wanted to show

a time when he says
Kristine was beating Natalia.

So he gets on the floor
to demonstrate,

take a look at this.

The beatings

were similar to this...

[grunts]

Oh, my goodness.

Beth, what do you
make of that display?

You know,
I can't see that enough.

I don't understand why
he actually punched the floor.

Why couldn't he just
sort of demonstrate without--

And didn't I tell you
that he was hurt?

He's hurt himself doing that.

But I guess he made his point.

I mean, like,
as Ken was describing,

I mean,
Michael likes the camera.

He emotes a lot.

If you remember
the end of season one,

it ends as the credits
are rolling with him saying,

"You know, what...
Which Michael do you want,

like the emotional one?
I can give you the tears."

Like he can turn it on
and off real fast.

That's how season one ended
with the credits rolling.

-Remember? He's like...
-[Ken] Yeah. Yeah.

"I'll give you
the tears if you want."

-I'm paraphrasing.
-[Nancy] I'm so unimpressed.

And I'm just thinking
about the way he carried on

when he yanked his mic off.

If he would act like that

in a room full of producers

and in front of his daughter,
Natalia Grace,

what would he do
behind closed doors?

And he says he didn't know
about any of the re-aging,

that it's all Kristine,

that he didn't go
to the doctor's appointments.

He got all of this
secondhand knowledge.

Uh-uh, I don't believe that,

-but that's what he says.
-[Ken] Yeah.

Well, you wouldn't find
Michael's picture

next to the definition
of veracity

in anybody's dictionary.

We have caught him
in misrepresentations

and that you have to think
they're purposeful.

The incident at the creamery,

initially he told us that
he observed the whole thing.

-[Nancy] Mmm-hmm.
-And he actually heard

a verbiage, and, you know,

about, "I wanna kill
that SOB," you know, with, um,

referring to Kristine.

And then later on
he changed at 180 degrees

that he didn't see
what was happening.

[Nancy]He was "in the forest."

[Ken] It was...
Yes. On his way back

from where
they milked the cows.

There's an another instance
where he told us

that they took Natalia
out of grade school,

which she was doing
quite well, by the way,

because she was running
over children

with her wheelchair.

Well, we interviewed...

I interviewed
after the state police did,

her first grade teacher.

A highly-credible person
who said, "Ken,

I'm telling you right now,

that is a lot
of lies and nonsense.

I was her teacher.

If we knew that
she was running kids over

with her wheelchair,

you know,
if she was doing that,

I'd be the first to to know.

She was a very
well-behaved child,

typical first grader."

So, you know,
he has been caught before

in a be-kind
misrepresentations.

And you have
to think when people lie,

and somebody with
my experience interviewing

thousands of people
through the years,

there's always a reason,
an underlying motive.

It's hard to get yourself
into their brain,

into their mindset
exactly why.

In this case,

it would be
sheer speculation.

However, when you look
at that scene of him

really dramatically
pounding that floor,

this is the way
you beat a little person

who has disabilities,

keep in mind that
when he was first approached

by the Indiana State Police,

Investigator Davenport
in his backyard,

this is prior to his arrest,

almost immediately
he threw his wife, Kristine,

under the bus,

telling the state police

how Kristine inflict beatings.

Now, when he gets
that dramatic,

is he trying to deflect...

-[Derrick] Mmm-hmm.
-attention away from him

and his, at a minimum,

indirect/latent role

in allowing
this physical abuse

to happen
to a helpless child, right?

Or he's... Is he doing it
just for the cameras

or a combination of both?

Yeah. What is the truth?

Our guests are staying
right here with us.

More emotional bombshells

when Natalia Grace
and Michael Barnett

come together
for the first time

since that stunning
court verdict.

What really happened
in that explosive meeting?

And what do the filmmakers
think of that

phone call from the Mans?

[theme music playing]

We are back with Beth and Ken,

who along with Shannon
and Eric Evangelista,

created this incredible
documentary series

about this bizarre story.

And now,
more never-before-seen

footage of Michael Barnett
with his attorney

just before he meets
Natalia Grace again

after that
horrible court battle.

[Terrance] You're going
into this interview
with your daughter.

-Uh-huh.
-How do you feel about that?

[sighs]

Last night, very strange.

Felt the same way

as the night before
I was going to meet Natalia

for the first time
and adopt Natalia

-for the first time.
-[Terrance] Really?

There's that exact same

little flutter of apprehension

because I don't know what
they're gonna be thinking.

Is this something
you feel like you have to do?

[Michael sighs]

I feel like I'm compelled to.

I'm not... It's not I have to.

No one's pointing a gun
to me saying,

"You must do this!"

But, this needs to be done.

It needs to be done mainly,

honestly,
from her point of view first.

It needs to be done
from my point of view.

Look, we...

There are a lot of blanks

between she and I

that we can fill in
for each other.

Okay.

Ken, what really happened

with both sides
before the meeting?

What did they think
was going to happen?

Well, they knew there was
gonna be a confrontation

of some sort,
but they were trying to...

Both sides trying to mitigate

the amount of confrontation.

Michael's attorney,
who's very adept,

laid it out to him in terms
of how Michael looks

in the world of...

The court of public opinion.

And of course,
Natalia wants an opportunity

to tell her side
of the story as well

'cause she didn't have
that opportunity at trial.

So they both had
something to gain from this

in terms of informing
the public,

educating the public.

So those kinds
of discussions went on.

And they were
sensitive discussions.

It didn't happen overnight.

It took some convincing
and cajoling and not...

I wouldn't say arm-twisting,

but certainly
in a euphemistic type of way.

A little bit of arm-twisting,

"Listen,
this is your opportunity

to tell
what really happened here."

[Nancy]What do you think, Beth?

Well, I wanted to point out

that just like the jury

could not hear
about the re-aging of Natalia,

that topic
could not be discussed

in this confrontation either,

which I found
really interesting.

And what happened there?

I wasn't part
of these negotiations.

Yeah.

So the ground rules going in,

that was number one
ground rule

that Natalia
was not allowed to bring up

any questions
about the re-aging.

And the concern there
was litigation,

obviously,
'cause that's still open

in terms of Natalia

entertaining civil litigation
against the Barnetts.

So that was the ground rule.

As we got into it,

that ground rule
was quickly broken

when Natalia started asking
some questions about age.

And Michael
put his hands up, said,

"Didn't anybody brief her?
Didn't...

Did anybody tell her
she's not supposed to ask me

about those questions."

So that came up.

But that's...
Let's face it, that's key.

And that's the crux
of this whole story.

How old was this person?

Was she a child?
Was she an adult?

Why was the court

misled to be kind

in terms of getting her
re-aged the first time?

And the motive why
is speculative.

But all... We were hoping
with this confrontation

that we would get more
answers to those questions.

And it wasn't
entirely satisfactory,

-to be honest with you.
-No. Not at all

because I still
want vengeance.

Well, Michael just acted like
a victim the whole time too.

He apologized
for what Kristine had done,

but I don't recall him
taking any real [indistinct]

Never once.
He blamed everything on her

and ultimately
the ending for now anyway.

I'm overly sorry
about what she did to you.

I am horrified
by what she has done to you.

I am sorry I wasn't stronger
and didn't stop her.

I...

I wasn't.

I...

I just wasn't.

I forgive you.

You don't have to.

I don't forgive me.

You should.

Can I pray for you?

Please.

So this was the part for me
in the episode

where I felt like I had
a reveal to Michael's...

His ambitions
for this interview.

He wanted that right there

because as soon as he got it,

it was like, "Hey, thank you.
I'm on my way out."

In the moment he's like,
"Oh, I don't forgive myself."

But when he got outside,
shades go on,

"You know what?
All is forgiven."

-Done and done.
-I don't think so, Michael.

I don't think so.

So I said
to myself right there,

"That's what
he was looking for.

He's satisfied."
And that just tells me,

in my opinion, he didn't go
in there with a genuine...

Really wanting
to fix this thing.

And he got down
and he kneeled on the floor

and let her pray over him
regarding forgiveness?

Uh-uh. And now,
that bombshell phone call

from the Mans family. Listen.

Ken, I just can't believe it.

Right when we thought

everything
was going to work out

for Natalia Grace,

and now this
bombshell phone call.

When did that happen?

We got that call
just two weeks ago.

It was a wrap.
We had it in the can.

It was absolutely
a mad scramble.

We would be remiss
not to include that.

We'd be misleading
the viewers as documentarians.

We had to put
a little bit of that call

into the end of the show.

What's gonna happen
to Natalia?

That's the new question
to be answered.

We are all over this

in terms of this totally
unexpected development.

It's not finished.
This saga is continuing.

And, I mean,
I don't know if we'll be back

with more
to tell you about it,

but we're still...
We're gonna follow the story

-and hope that there is
more to tell.
-Can you tell us anything

about the circumstances
of the call?

Do we know why they called?

Really? I can get into that
at this juncture,

it's a little bit premature?

But there's a hint
in that phone call

where Antwon Mans says,

"And she's done
other things in this house."

-[Derrick] Yeah.
-[Nancy] Uh-oh.

Well, what are those
other things?

For me,
I leave it with Natalia

has been through some things,
some dramatic things

that I wouldn't wish
on anyone,

and I hope that going forward,

whether we get to see it
on TV or not,

she finds
what she's looking for

because it's amazing that
she's gotten this far in life

-with what she's been through.
-Exactly.

-It's absolutely amazing.
-And just think about it,

this would...
This would destroy anybody

much less
a little disabled girl,

seven, eight years old.

I just can't believe
this is happening

all over again for her.

Beth and Ken,
thank you so much.

And again, a reminder,
if you missed

any of The Curious Case
in Natalia Grace,
Natalia Speaks,

it replays right here
on ID Discovery,

plus on Max.

Thank you for joining us

for Mara, Derrick, and myself,

goodnight, [indistinct]

[theme music playing]