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So why the long face, Horse?

I'm just having
a little girl trouble.

Bitch pressing charges?

I get that a lot.

Holden McNeil was set
in his ways.

The way he worked,
the way he lived,

and the way he thought
love should be.

But then she showed up.

Miramax Films presents a comedy
that tells it like it feels.

She's been around
and seen things

we've only read about
in books.

- What'd you do last night?
- Got lucky.

"Chasing Amy."

And now, at last, we come
to what at least I think

is the only good movie
on this week's show.

It's called "Chasing Amy,"

and it was written
and directed by Kevin Smith,

who made a name for himself
a few years ago

with a very low budget comedy
named "Clerks."

Now he's back
with "Chasing Amy,"

which is a terrific film--

well written, well acted--
about a love affair

that forces a comic book artist

to question all of his ideas
about himself.

Do you understand
why I love this movie so much?

No.

Give us a quick, you know,
thumbnail sketch of the plot.

It's about a guy who falls
in love with a lesbian.

I love you.

Finds out she's had
heterosexual relationships

and can't deal with that.

I want us to be something
that we can't be.

And what's that?

A normal couple.

In the late '90s,
it was still an occasion

to have a really big
queer film come out.

And this was big.

Ultimately, it made $12 million
in the box office.

There was Hollywood, and then
there's independent film.

And when an independent film
broke through,

everybody noticed.

It's extremely personalized,
extremely good.

I've never really seen
a romantic comedy

like it ever in my life.

It's a well-crafted film
that came out

in that great '90s era
of indie filmmaking.

Kevin Smith definitely
was one of the young kings

of independent film.

"'Chasing Amy' is obviously
a personal film for Smith--

a chance to work through his
masculinity issues on screen."

I do know that he's talked about
it being based on a relationship

that he had at one time.

You got this
Golden Globe nomination.

- Are you excited?
- I am. I'm very excited.

If I wrote about real life,
"Chasing Amy" would be all about

the fact that
I couldn't stand that

my girlfriend at the time
had went to Bali

when she was younger
and I didn't.

I think he was being true
to himself

and being as true as he could
to the the subject matter.

It directly addressed issues
of intersectionality,

sociopolitical issues,

and really looked
at identity politics

in a way that most films hadn't.

It's oh-so acceptable
to be a gay girl nowadays.

People think it's cute.

Do you find the film
to be authentic

to the LGBTQ community?

No, I find it to be authentic
to the straight white dude

who happens to fall
for a queer woman community.

This is a movie about
a woman who is a lesbian

and decides to be with a man.

I'm like, "You know, that's, uh,
gonna be controversial."

There are some people
that inevitably are going to see

a lesbian no longer
being a lesbian

by meeting "the right man"
and rejecting that entirely.

Set aside the notion
that any lesbian

can be magically turned straight
if the right guy comes along.

What's extra offensive
in hindsight

is the idea that that guy
would be Ben Affleck.

When I first saw the movie,
like,

I thought it was
kind of dumb but harmless.

That would have been excellent
for the poster tagline--

Dumb but Harmless.

There were some people
in the community

who did not appreciate
the ambiguity, the subtlety.

There were a lot of
question marks in that film.

I mean, it's not rocket science.

A straight man tells
a lesbian story,

and now everyone's
paying attention.

I hear the word problematic
with "Chasing Amy" a lot.

Is it bad that
it's problematic?

Is it okay that
it's kind of divisive?

Did you see that?
Your dyke-courting ass

just got me scored on.

Sometimes something that's
problematic can still mean

a lot in your development.

It was, I think, a brave film
at the time

to portray somebody who's...
fluid.

I know that
there's a lot of controversy

about these older gay films,
but at the same time,

like, it meant something
to you as a filmmaker

and, like, that is, like,
an undeniable thing.

I do have more respect for
this film than I thought I did,

less because of how
it's put together

and more for what
it was able to do

for people like you.

I do have a question--

why do you want
to make this movie?

When I was 12,

I exclusively wanted
to watch Ben Affleck movies.

It's an incredibly specific
thing for a child to demand.

But Ben Affleck was the star

of the 2003 superhero film
"Daredevil."

Naturally,
I was in love with him.

One day, while raiding
my family's movie collection,

I came across an unfamiliar box
with Mr. Affleck's face on it.

The title read "Chasing Amy."

"Chasing Amy" had everything
that I wanted.

The characters were
comic book writers.

They spoke
in romantic monologues

about the kind of love that
only seemed to exist in movies.

And there were openly
queer people,

and I didn't realize what
a big deal that would be for me.

Around this time,
I entered junior high school.

Young me did not have it
particularly easy.

While I was lucky
to have a few people

that I could call friends,
I often felt isolated,

but wasn't really sure why.

In one violent incident
in the seventh grade,

a group of boys surrounded me
as I waited for my mom

to pick me up after school.

I regarded these kids
as my friends.

So imagine my shock
when they started pushing me,

threatening me and hurling words

like "dyke," "queer,"
and "faggot" at me.

I had never heard the word
"dyke" before in my life.

This wasn't the last time

I'd encounter homophobia
as an adolescent,

but it was the first time

I realized just how
I was being othered.

See, it sucks when everyone else

knows you're queer
before you do,

because then you don't
have anything

to protect yourself with.

These young men weaponized my
perceived sexuality against me.

Back then, there were
virtually no consequences

for homophobic bullying
in Kansas.

But I did have this one movie.

I had a movie where the gay and
lesbian characters were good.

They were intelligent
and funny and out.

They were able to live
as their authentic selves.

And you know what?
The spirit of "Chasing Amy"

kept me alive for years to come,
despite the suicidal thoughts

that began to permeate
from the trauma

I was continuously
experiencing at school.

No matter what
I was dealing with,

I had this one movie
to bring me solace.

I once kept this movie
in my DVD player for a month.

I would watch it at least once
a day every day for 30 days.

Now, to be fair,

I didn't know that
there were other gay movies.

Nowadays, I'm a filmmaker,

and because I can't seem
to shake this topic,

I'm now directing a project

about the legacy of
"Chasing Amy" as an LGBTQ film.

It's by far the most dramatic
way of saying "thank you"

I could possibly think of.

Thank you.

The whole store, like,
looks the same.

It feels like I'm stepping into,
like, a time capsule

- in the best way.
- Yeah.

You know,
all the racks are the same.

I don't think the T-shirts
or the books were over there.

No.

And over here was cassingles,

which kind of dates it
pretty badly, but, uh...

But the exterior,
the carpet.

Oh, yeah.
It really feels like

I watched the movie and then
just, like, walked over here.

Maybe what's really
troubling you

is that your fragile fantasy
might not be true.

You remember that,

♪ Never will forget this,
never ♪

I want to get the rights
to that song

and just, like, do a montage
of this whole day.

♪ Never will forget this, I

♪ Never will, never will,
never will forget this ♪

♪ Never will forget this, I

♪ Never will, never will,
never will forget this ♪

♪ Never will forget this, I

♪ Never will, never will,
never will forget this ♪

Hey. Hey!

♪ Never will forget this, I

♪ Never will, never will,
never will forget this ♪

Wow.

I'm a little nervous.

I didn't know what I expected.

I did not expect all this.
This is cool.

- Ta da da!
- Oh, my.

Oh, my God.

That's the original piece
right up there.

Did they ever make, like,
a full "Chasing Amy" comic?

Does that exist somewhere?

- No.
- Okay.

Just the last page
and the cover.

Right.

I feel like I know
as much about "Chasing Amy"

without knowing Kevin
or actually physically

- being present, and so.
- Gotcha.

Everybody else's question
in my life is, like,

why are you doing this?

It's to pay tribute
to this movie,

but also to see why do
LGBTQ people not like this movie

and, like, what makes
good representation.

It's an honest movie,
if nothing else.

- Yes.
- It's shown from--

from Kevin's point of view.

Seeing that movie,
like, I was like,

"Oh, this is an option."

I am gay or I am straight,
basically, right?

Yeah. You had one
of two options.

Yeah.

Like, and now, more people are
coming out today more than ever,

but they're coming out
as, like, bisexual/pansexual.

You know, there's been
a total shift in the mindset.

And "Chasing Amy" helped me,
like,

figure out that,
"Oh, that's me."

A lot of people love
"Chasing Amy" just for that,

that it was so honest
and so raw.

Yeah.

- Do you like the movie?
- Love it.

I love all of Kevin's movies,

even the ones
that nobody else likes.

Holy shit.

I don't even.

What do you even push?

- Uh... I don't know.
- Knock, I suppose.

All right.

- Oh, wow. Hi. Hi.
- Hi. I'm Emily.

Hey, nice to meet you.

This is Brad.
Wow.

Holy shit!

This is bonkers.

Hello? Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.
How are you?

So good. Welcome to the house
that Amy built in many ways.

This is amazing.

She friendly? He friendly?

She's very.
She's just crippled as hell.

That's from
"Chasing Amy."

Chasing Amy
was fucking pivotal

because it changed me
as a filmmaker,

it changed me
as a professional,

it changed me as a human being
and stuff.

It is kind of the movie
without which nothing else

fucking happens.

I'm just so fucking happy
you made that movie.

I mean, it's--
You and me both.

I mean, I can't--

I don't want to cry
because I'm an ugly crier.

But--
You and me both.

We're both, uh--
I know you cry pretty easily

from the Internet.
All the time.

Oh, my God.

I love that you're a dude
that, like,

feels his feelings.
That dude wouldn't exist

were it not
for "Chasing Amy."

Like...
"This dude wouldn't exist

if not for 'Chasing Amy.'"

That's funny.

Where is she at?

She says she's coming out.
Where are you?

Anyway, I'm more excited.
I'm not nervous.

And I know I didn't forget
how to kiss, but...

I got you these flowers.

To your right, sorry.
To your right.

That is just too--
that's too far over.

That's too far.
That's still too far.

It's off center.
It looks weird.

Oh, my God. Filmmakers.

- Is that fine?
- That should be okay.

Okay. If not,
I can always take it off.

- The key to my heart?
- Yeah.

You're gonna take it off?

You could have given me
an engagement ring already.

Yep.

I'm Riley,
and I'm Sav's girlfriend.

Yeah! Finger cuffs.

We've known each other for,
like, seven years maybe.

That's gay.

We met each other
when we were very little.

Okay.

It feels like a long time ago.

When I was 17
and you were 18.

- We met online.
- Whoo!

On Tumblr.

You got to move
your shoulders, too, though.

- I did.
- You did it terribly.

We were nerdy teenagers
that liked "Glee,"

and we became friends.

Oh, oh, and we bonded over
your lies.

- My lies?
- Yeah.

I was like, "Oh, my God,
I love 'Lord of the Rings.'"

And you were like,
"Oh my God,

I love 'Lord of the Rings,'
too."

Little did I know,
you had no idea

what you were talking about.

No, I really liked you
and wanted to be your friend,

so I lied about liking
"Lord of the Rings."

This whole relationship
is based on a lie.

Yeah, you were like, "Oh,
I want to name my dog 'Gimli.'"

And I was like, "Gimli?"
And you were like,

"From 'Lord of the Rings.'"
Everybody knows that.

I was like, "Oh, shit.
I've been caught."

I wanted you to be
my friend really bad,

and I thought that if I didn't
like "Lord of the Rings,"

you wouldn't want
to talk to me anymore.

We followed each other,

and one day, we started
messaging each other on the--

on the website,
and then one day,

I was going to be away
from my computer

and I just couldn't stand
the thought

of not talking to you
for that long.

I think it was, like,
a long weekend or something,

and I was just like, "Okay,
this is a little weird,

but, you know,
can you give me your number?

I'll give you mine,
and we can text."

That was, like, a kind of
a crucial step

to our relationship--
as friends, at this point.

Check this out.

There's a "Chasing Amy" hat
down there.

- Yeah, I see it.
- And then there's a--

I think that's French?

- A French VHS of "Chasing Amy."
- Yeah.

And I told Kevin,
I was like,

"Oh, man, you have
the hat at the store."

And he's like,
"Do you want it?"

And I was like, "Kevin,
that's your hat.

I don't need it."

Why didn't you say yes?

If Kevin wants to get me a hat,
he can get me a hat,

but I'm not going to
take the one from the store.

Get on it, Kevin.

Lovely. Lovely.

That's just me.

Fucking look at that.

- Are you in it?
- Yeah.

I think that's smart.

I mean, I'm not thrilled
about it, necessarily.

No, I think that's smart.

But--
You had me at "Hello."

- All right, sound.
- Rolling.

- Cameras.
- Speed. Speed.

That speed? Okay.

K1, Take 1--
soft sticks.

Can you take me through
the genesis

of creating "Chasing Amy?"

"Chasing Amy"
is a weird bouillabaisse, right?

Like, for years, I've told
a version of, you know,

why that movie happened,
and they're all true,

but it's more like all of them
rather than any one single path.

Donald, my brother,
being gay plays a big part

in what "Chasing Amy" becomes.

When I told my brother I wanted
to be a filmmaker, I said,

"What about movies?

It must be irritating to sit
through a fucking movie

where two people that
you don't identify with, like,

fucking fall in love."

And he goes, "Well,
I can identify with love."

You had me at "Hello."

"But yeah, it's weird that 99%
of the things that I go out

to see are about
straight people."

I committed in my head
in that moment,

I'm always going to fucking try
to whip in

a little gay content for Don.
Then I got Scott Mosier,

and this has everything
to do with where

"Chasing Amy" comes from.

When we met in film school,
we were just like,

"Hey, like, you write a movie,
I'll write a movie,

and then we'll go make it."
I wrote some piece of shit,

and he wrote "Clerks."

So I finished "Clerks" first,
and he came down and kind of

got trapped into the role
of de facto producer.

To go back
to the very, very beginning,

we make "Clerks"

and we get into Sundance,

and John Pierson
is repping the film,

and he's also repping
a film called "Go Fish,"

which was written
by Guinevere Turner

and directed by Rose Troche.

My name is Guinevere Turner.

I am a screenwriter,
a filmmaker, an actress,

a lover, a warrior,
and a warrior princess.

Everyone was looking
forward to "Go Fish."

Everyone knew
about the avant garde,

black and white lesbian movie
and stuff.

Our movie was-- like,
there was no buzz whatsoever.

"Clerks" and "Go Fish,"
which was my first film, are--

They're basically,
like, siblings

in the indie film world
of the '90s.

They are black and white.

They are endless chatter
that only the people

who are being represented
would care about.

It's all about everybody
being on your side, as well.

It's not only about romance.

It's about having good friends,
and it's about having people

rooting for you, you know?

And yeah, those are things
that-- those are-- I think

that's what makes it
a universal film.

"Go Fish" comes out of a very
instinctive need to be, like,

"What the fuck?"

Where are we
in lesbian movies?

We weren't even outraged,
we were so young.

We were confused about, like,
why haven't we seen ourselves?

The girls were on fire
because their movie

was playing long
before ours and stuff.

So we started hanging out
with them there.

But, you know, Scott's, like,
funny and charming--

like, way more funny and
charming than me, to be honest.

And so him and Gwen, like,
hit it off instantly.

I became incredibly smitten
or sort of,

like, enthralled
with Guinevere Turner.

I just developed what I can
only call

a romantic friendship
with Scott Mosier,

who was just--
is just a lovely person.

Like, Kevin is a smart ass,
asshole, wonderful fuck face.

Scott Mosier is the yin
to that yang.

He'd go up to the city
and hang out with Gwen,

and Gwen would come down
to New Jersey

and hang out with Scott.

They would just go, like,
fuck off.

And then they'd hang out
in Scott's room with, like,

the door closed
and, you know...

This girl is gay.

We were in this moment
where we had all

just become filmmakers of note
while not expecting it at all.

And I just spent
a lot of time with Mosier.

I just loved him.

Part of "Chasing Amy" comes
from me watching that and going,

"You should do a movie."
I literally said to Scott,

"You should write a movie
about this shit."

In the moment he said it,

I was like, "I don't even know
what it is."

Like, I had no clarity
about what, like--

I don't even know
what the story was.

I'd sort of expressed
how I felt,

and I knew how she felt,
and I knew who she was,

so by sort of laying
all the cards on the table,

I think it actually
is the reason

why we had this sort
of romantic friendship.

- I love you.
- I love you, too.

- This is really cool.
- What?

This park is awesome.
This place is awesome.

Being here with you
is awesome.

I don't remember exactly
the first time I saw your face.

It was probably pretty early on.

Being able to put a face
to this--

like, best friend that I kept
in my pocket was amazing.

And then I heard your voice
and I was like,

"That is the sexiest voice

I've ever heard
in my entire life."

I'm always self-conscious
of being on camera, so--

but I'm way more self-conscious
when you're here, though,

- for some reason.
- Why?

I don't know,
'cause I think our relationship

is pretty private.

I like you, Holden.

I haven't liked a man
in a long time,

and I want you to feel
comfortable with me

because I'd really like us
to be friends.

So part of it was Scott
and Gwen going like, "Man,

like, fucking,
what a great story.

The guy falls in love
with a lesbian.

You should write that
as a movie. No? I'll do it."

It's kind of weird
being in a place

where, like...

a bunch of stuff,
like, changed your life.

You know,
like, the fact that, like,

"Clerks" happened
made "Chasing Amy" happen.

I don't feel, like, transformed
emotionally or anything,

but it's cool to, like,
come to a place

where my life was weirdly
affected in a positive way.

All right, let's go.

"Clerks" began my career.
"Mallrats" killed my career.

So you got me needing
to do something to stay

in this business,
or else we were out.

That's a big part of
where that movie comes from.

And then, of course,
Joey.

Holden, Banky,
this pile of PMS

is Alyssa Jones.

The character of Alyssa
is actually a confluence of me,

his only lesbian friend,
and Joey,

who he met and fell in love with
on the set of "Mallrats."

My next guest
is a very talented actress

who's been getting great reviews
for her role

in the film "Chasing Amy."
It's in theaters right now.

Please welcome
Joey Lauren Adams.

"Chasing Amy" without
Joey would have been

a soulless husk.

Like, an idea-- Joey and I
are in this relationship,

and then we're starting
to have these issues,

that becomes more interesting
to me, where I'm like,

"Well, maybe that should be
what the movie's about."

So maybe the idea is a guy
falls in love with a lesbian,

but like, what trips him up
is not, like,

that he's fallen in love
with a lesbian.

What trips him up
is, like, at one point,

she had sex with a guy.

I was very much like Holden.

I was very insecure
about girlfriends past

at the time
that I wrote that movie.

I have a very particular...

fondness for Joey Lauren Adams.

She is an Arkansas farm gal
and so grounded.

- You come from...
- Arkansas.

Arkansas, all right.
And you got--

Is your family there--
are they pretty conservative?

Yeah, so I have some,
you know,

members that are very religious
and then others who aren't.

They're just a little
backwards sometimes.

And of course, young women
often have an image

and are not allowed to be
much more than that image.

You got bent out of shape the
same way over that costume party

when we were in high school.

You fucked Rick Derris
on a pool table--

with everyone watching,
no less.

It was a costume party, T.S.

No one could tell
it was me.

But I appreciated her
down-to-earthness

and her native intelligence.

You play someone like Alyssa
in "Chasing Amy,"

who's so with it and articulate,
it's hard to go

and play the obligatory
girlfriend in some film.

And this character is strong
and smart and funny.

Dire Straits has a song
called "Romeo and Juliet,"

and there's a really wonderful
line in it where he says,

"I dreamed your dreams for you,
and now your dreams are real."

That's what it always felt like.

She really wanted
to be that actress.

She was friends
with Parker Posey,

and Parker, the year before
was the indie "it" girl

with a movie "Party Girl."

♪ And me

Like, Joey wanted that--
to be considered,

like, an actress,
serious actress.

And within, like, a year's time,
two years time,

I was able to give her
that kind of gift wrapped.

But, you know,
she had a lot to do with it.

The Golden Globe--
that's a big, big deal.

I think you do
really, really nice work.

Thank you.

And you're going to be
a big star.

Thank you. This is, like,
the pinnacle of my career.

"Chasing Amy" and the rest

of my fucking
professional career

was forged in a cauldron of--
of two years.

Not just my career, but who
I would become as a person.

Generally speaking, it all ends
if "Chasing Amy" doesn't happen.

But if you went back and told
27-year-old Kevin Smith that,

"Hey, man, fucking--
to get all that,

you have to sacrifice
this relationship,"

that kid wouldn't have done it.

That kid was so surprised that
everything crumbled after that.

He thought it would only
make things, like, stronger.

He was very naive.

I've been in love with you--

it sounds stupid
to say from, like,

the first second
we started talking,

but that's really how
it feels.

I don't remember a time knowing
you that I did not like you

or love you so expansively,

it felt like it was going
to swallow my heart whole.

I thought it was so cool
that you were, like,

an out lesbian
to your friends.

I was very out on the Internet,
very closeted in real life.

I'd picked a date
that I was going to tell you

that I liked you,

and you were the first person
I came out to as queer,

because I wanted you to know
that I was a romantic option.

And it was the entire reason
I came out.

You were the first person
that I talked to every day

and the last person
I talked to at night.

SHE SAID "YES"!

The second my alarm
went off at,

like, six in the morning
or something,

I was already texting you, and
you were up at the same time,

and we were just, like, texting
back and forth, back and forth.

We helped each other
get through the day

because back then when we met,

it was dark times
for both of us.

You know, being a teen
is just the worst thing ever,

and we just helped each other.

Fellas, I'm off the market
officially.

What about to the ladies?

Ladies, actually.

- Hey, everybody.
- Hi.

We're filming BTS.
Is that okay?

Say again?

Is it okay
if we film some BTS?

- Happily.
- All right.

Folks, here's some of
the most metal water

you will ever drink
in your life.

This is what you said
of John Pierson in 2003--

"It's rare when you become
friendly with your heroes.

It's rarer still when, even
after ten years of friendship

and familiarity,
they remain your heroes."

I guess I never really thought
of you as as my hero growing up

because I was just
a "Chasing Amy" fanatic,

but in this process of getting
to make this movie,

I think you have become
a, you know, a hero,

not on a pedestal,
but as the the person

who helped make
all of this possible.

You know, I'd be lying
if I was like, "Oh, my God,

I was trying to reach you."
You know what I'm saying?

But you got reached regardless.
And I didn't know it was you,

but, like, I was telling
my story. That's all I ever do.

But when you told me
the story, I'm like,

"Oh, I haven't met you before,
but I've met you before."

People who are like,
"That fucking saved my life."

Your case stands out
because I'm like,

"Savannah's way too young
for this shit to matter."

They've made way too many
better,

more expressive,
more on point,

more from the community
point of view movies than this.

But when you explained it
and, you know, in the TED Talk,

I was like,
"That makes sense."

It was surprising
but delightful

that you found
something in it.

Like that, it played a role
in your world.

Like, as an artist,
as the guy who made it,

of course, that just means,
like, everything.

All right, let's stop
for a minute.

Are you happy?

So we started dating,
and I was out

and completely open
to being queer, but...

you were not.

We were dating for two years
by the time you came out

- as queer to your family.
- Yeah.

I'm from Mexico City,
born and raised--

one of the first cities in the
world to legalize gay marriage.

However, in my--
in my family, in my circle,

there was--
it was like, "Okay,

it's great that gay people
can get married,

but, you know,
can they do it over there?"

Ow! Hide my double chin.

I wanted to talk to you
about the thing I told my dad

because, you know, he's my dad.

Yeah?

But I was
a little bit worried

because he can be
a little bit traditional

and, like, honestly,
I don't even know

how much he knows about,
like, trans people.

Personally, I was very nervous
because I didn't want anybody

to be anything other than
nice to you and accepting.

He was just, like,
"Um, does that--

And what does that mean
to your relationship?"

And I was just like,
"Well, things are going

to stay the same.

We still love each other

with everything we have,
and nothing has changed."

And then he was like,
"Oh, well, I'm really glad

that things are progressing."

And then he was like,
"Is he happy?"

- And he used the pronoun...
- Wow.

- Like straight-up.
- Wow.

- Yeah.
- That's... surprising

and very sweet.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like, "Yes.

You know this--
in terms of identity

and-- and self-image
and stuff like that,

it's the happiest
I've ever seen him."

Yeah.

And he was just like,
"I'm very happy for you both."

And another thumbs up.

- Wow. That is...
- Yeah.

...like all you can ask for, right?

- Nice to meet you, Alex.
- Nice to meet you.

- S-A-V.
- Oh, that's an awesome name.

- Sav. Brandon.
- Nice to meet you.

I'm the director of
"Chasing Chasing Amy."

I love "Chasing Amy."

I think it's way more sincere
than a lot of his other stuff.

He was on the forefront
of issues

that people are
talking about today.

I think there would be
a little less controversy

about it today if it came out.

But-- but that's probably
just some idealistic

thinking on my part
because I don't really follow

the news that much.

If you can't watch that movie
and find anything about it

that you don't love, something's
really wrong with you.

So-- But...

"Chasing Amy" was, to me,
more of a film

made for straight white men
that was,

you know, kind of introducing
people to queer communities.

"Chasing Amy," when it came out,
was controversial.

And I remember even thinking
to myself as I'm watching it,

I'm like,
"Wonder what my gay friends

are going to think of this."

If you've been marginalized
because of media that says

that lesbians can
all of a sudden not be lesbians

if they find the right man,

I totally get why
this movie would trigger you.

Hi, I'm Kurt Loder
with MTV News.

"Boy meets lesbian"
is the high concept thesis

of a new movie
opening on Friday in Boston,

Los Angeles,
San Francisco, Atlanta,

and a few other cities.

The movie is "Chasing Amy,"

the third film
from director Kevin Smith.

The theme, once again
is post-high school anxiety,

but does the boy
get the lesbian?

And for that matter,
how much of a lesbian

is the lesbian in question?

It's giving certain men
this belief

that you should go
after your lesbian friends

if you're attracted to them, right?

And that, like,
they might reciprocate.

Do you remember
for one fucking second who I am?

So, I mean, you know,
people change.

Oh!
Oh, it's that simple?

"Chasing Amy" is
a very particular queer story.

If queer cinema were a--
were a bus,

"Chasing Amy" would be like,
outside the bus,

but it would be outside the bus
in relatively good company.

There are other movies
from the same time period

and earlier that are
much more sensitive

with their perspectives,
with their language,

but that may not have been
as mainstream.

Can I kiss you?

How come we didn't know
about this before?

I mean, you don't seem gay.

I didn't say I was gay.
I said I was in love.

And so, like, even today,

we fall into the trappings
of mainstream expectations

when it comes to queer media.

Do you understand
why certain LGBTQ people

may not like "Chasing Amy?"

Yeah, of course.
Absolutely.

Believe me, I've had 22 years
to get used to that,

and I got used to that on the
fucking first week it came out.

There were some people, as Gwen
predicted, that were upset.

The backlash to be expected,
of course,

is from the lesbian community,
and not really unfairly.

Like here you are,
you're a white straight male.

What are you doing writing
a movie about gay people

or especially
a lesbian character?

But Gwen also said,
"I was always surprised

that more people
didn't come after you."

The biggest blowback--
and God's truth-- that I heard,

felt, and was told about was
when they told me that Ellen

and Anne Heche went to see
"Chasing Amy,"

and it was reported
that they walked out

in the first half hour.

And us being like,
"Man, like--

well, that's the most famous
lesbian in the world.

We just lost her.

That means we're never
getting on 'The Ellen Show.'"

Kevin Smith can't know
what it's like to be

a queer person
or a trans person.

Now that we know that
we're attracted to each other,

what do we do?

But he can know
what it's like to know them

and to have them in his life,

and that's the story
he's telling.

A big complaint seems
to be about Banky,

who'll, like, use
pretty harsh terminology

and throw around the "F" word
and stuff like that.

Well, yeah.
Banky's not "the villain,"

but Banky is meant to be
the idiot in the story.

What'd I tell you?
She just needs the right guy.

All every woman really wants,
be it mother, senator, nun,

is some serious
deep dicking.

Jason Lee's
character Banky is "the way in"

for straight guys
watching this movie.

I remember telling Kevin
that I was nervous

about some of Banky's dialog.

"You know, Kevin, there's just
a lot of offensive things

that Banky is saying,
and I don't want to be hated.

Like I don't want people
to think Banky

is just some ignorant prick."

What does it matter
if I refer to her as a dyke?

Banky is just flat out gay.
He was just repressed.

That's why he was so angry
and projecting and shit.

But I would like to state,
for the record,

did create all these characters

or rather steal them
from real life people.

So if anybody gets to say what
happens to him, I think it's me.

It isn't a healthy thing

to say that your homophobia
is excused

because you are gay
and you're closeted

and you're trying
to deal with that,

especially if you're hurting
other queer people.

You don't just get
a pass for that.

When you say that all
homophobes are secretly gay,

what you're doing is blaming
gay people for homophobia.

Exactly. And not just,
you know, bigots.

Right.

As time moves on, we look at
these films that have been made

and we start to read them
a little differently.

There's so much that you
would not get away with today

that they got away
with just fine.

And nobody even
questioned it.

Like that there would be
a homophobic character

that uses the word "faggot"
over and over and over again.

I think now we would judge
that director

and that would be
very problematic.

Back in the day, he was just
accurately portraying

how a guy like that
would actually talk.

What if she's
carrying a disease?

And you could just bring
to life flawed characters.

It's very much a film of
its time,

but it's still coming out
of that era

where people don't know
as much about,

like, the LGBTQ community.

A House panel
says no to gay marriages.

Yesterday, the Judiciary
Committee approved a bill

that would keep same sex unions
invalid under federal law,

even if a state
makes them legal.

What is it about gay men that
terrifies the rest of the world?

The Hooper X character
in the film

is really sort of
the moral compass.

There has always been
a hard thing when it comes

to, like, any sort of like,
doubly marginalized community,

of how do we tackle
both things at once?

There's an element of what--
you know,

what's called twoness
going on there.

And twoness is being black
and being an American.

And but twoness can also
be black and being gay.

It's pretty easy
for Holden and Banky

to write a comic book about
a bunch of stoners superheroes.

There's not a lot of risk there.

I got to deal with being
a minority

in the minority
of the minority,

and nobody's supporting
my ass.

That character could be
the whole subject

of a whole film of itself.

One of my first notes that I was
taking while I was watching

was Ben Affleck's
goatee was a bad idea.

And... Well, that's
that's the first note,

so I guess that tells you
all you need to know.

You know, when I was
growing up, I was, like,

"Holden, what a cool guy."

And then I like, grew up
and I was like,

"No, Banky was such a babe
in that movie."

He was, like, the cool guy.

Holden's, like, fucking wearing,
like, this loose flannel

and these jeans that don't fit
him right, and the goatee.

No wonder
he attracted a lesbian.

That's going into the movie.

Naturally, I gravitate
toward the Holden character.

That is the closest character

that I've ever written
to myself.

This girl loves me,
my friend--

loves me,
you know what I'm saying?

It's a film that centers
Holden McNeil,

who is a straight white man,

and so his lens
really shapes the storyline.

And while there are
sort of diverse perspectives,

it's still very much
Holden's lens.

There's always this assumption
that all we need

is to meet this right man,
and then we will change

everything about ourselves
to be with him

because it's a standard,
it's tradition,

it's just the way
that things are.

Why girls?

Why men?

Well, because that's
the standard.

And so I think we've been
faced with that

for most of our lives,
and so a lot of lesbians,

I think, innately just--
they detest that,

and I understand why.

There's this scene
in the movie

where Holden chases after Alyssa
in the rain

and she like, lets him have it.
She's just like, "Screw you."

That was so unfair!

"I'm lesbian.

You're an idiot.

How dare you?

I'm going to hitch
a ride back home."

And I was like,
"Yes, like, that's so good."

And then he, like, mopes back
to his car, and I'm like,

"Get out of there, Ben Affleck."

And then she runs back
to him and kisses him.

And I was like, "No!"

I was watching
Ben Affleck's speech

and I was thinking like,
"Holy crap,

this is actually,
literally the speech

that anyone, gay or straight,
would want to hear."

I love you.

Very, very simple.

Where I, like, related
to "Chasing Amy"

coming into it was that Kevin
is such a romantic

in the way that he describes
his feelings of love.

You are the-- the epitome
of everything I have ever

looked for
in another human being.

That's how I feel
about my fiance.

So this is what
I'm sending.

"I'm taking my fiancée
on a date to some diner

you shot in 20 years ago."

And this is where
Ben Affleck sat.

My butt has been where
Ben Affleck's butt has been.

Basically Ben Affleck.
Little shorter.

This movie made me
be honest with myself,

"Chasing Amy"
and "Chasing Chasing Amy."

You did it too late.

You tried to cheat.
I won.

This is the worst.

You brought me
all the way to New Jersey.

The last time I was here,
I was not very honest

with myself about who I was,
and now I'm back here

and engaged, more out.

It's a pretty good situation
to be in.

And now, I guess the weight
of this place isn't as heavy.

It's just a place,

and I'm not nearly as nervous as
I was just to exist in the world

or shoot in New Jersey.
It's kind of nice.

It's the "Chasing Amy"
memorial table.

Where homosexuals
go to die.

Well, you're the only homo
at this table.

I'm half.

I hope that went
on the record.

That I'm half gay?

Because-- Yeah,
Because you're half gay.

The character of
Alyssa Jones is Joey Adams.

It's written for Joey about Joey
based on things Joey said.

The bigger difference,
of course, is Alyssa is--

you know, she's identifies
as a lesbian,

at least in the beginning
of the movie.

I think Alyssa Jones,
as a character,

was an incredible role
for a woman at that time.

There really weren't
tons of roles for women

that had robust,
intelligent dialogue and banter

and the ability
to be more than one dimensional.

I think Kevin writes well
for women

because Kevin's very in touch
with his feminine side.

He's very much the female
in our relationship,

and I'm more the male.
He's very romantic.

He's very sentimental.

This character that
Kevin Smith created of Alyssa

is sort of, like, maybe a leap

and a bound
above the rest of the film

and past the time period in
which that this movie came out.

She's cool. She, like,
gets on the mic at a dyke night,

you know, and makes out
with her girlfriend in public.

There are things in this movie
that are so ill-advised.

Like, they're on the swings,
and he says like...

"Well, where's the penetration
in lesbian sex?"

The finger?

She goes...

Observe.

I don't know if anyone
in this room

has ever fisted someone,

but you for sure
don't do it like that.

Alyssa Jones
as a queer character

still comes in a very appetizing
to the male gaze package.

She's blonde, she's thin,
she's sexually available.

She has a promiscuous past.

I thought you would be
into this.

You did?

What does that say about me?

You've done stuff
like this before.

I mean, this should be
no big deal for you.

Any aspect of that movie
that might have seemed

ahead of its time
when we made it has long since,

like-- history has caught up
and then gone past it

to the point
where people do look at it

as "problematic"
or something like that.

This movie is, like,
so accidentally good

at talking about biphobia.

There are so many things that
the character Alyssa will say

that I have thought about
or seen in my queer experiences

with other queer women,

and I just felt like
how interesting it was

that Kevin Smith ended up
making this movie

when the intent
is clearly not there.

It really infuriates me
on this film

when we hear feedback about how
it's some guy's sexual fantasy,

and he's portraying women
and lesbians in a bad way,

because he really does--

he has such an honest respect
for women,

and he really understands them.

And I think it's obvious
in most of his scripts.

The way that Alyssa
as a character,

defines her experience
is really beautiful.

She offers language
for things that people

have not been able
to say before.

I like that Alyssa is never
actually questioning

her own sexuality.

Everyone else is doing it
for her, but she's good.

She knows what's up.

One of my favorite parts
of the film

is when they're lying
in each other's arms,

Holden and Alyssa,
and he says

something that's like,
very male, right?

Like, "Why me?
Why am I so special?"

And she has this beautiful,
like, sweet,

short monologue about...

I came to this
on my own terms.

Which is why
it makes it okay.

I'm not with you because
of what family, society, life

tried to instill in me
from day one.

She didn't fall into
a heterosexual relationship

because it was what was expected
of her or what the norm was,

what the assumption was.
She chose it.

So being able to see somebody
own their experience

in that way is really beautiful.

I think it taught me the
importance of, like-- at least

in that time of labeling myself
as bi, not allowing anyone

to tell me
that I wasn't queer enough.

The one scene that gives us,
I think, the most insight

about her
is the scene with her friends,

because you get to see
kind of her friends react

to her sexual fluidity.

She's like,
"Yeah, I'm with this guy now."

And they're like...
Another one bites the dust.

It's, like, in that moment,
it's not as if, like,

"Oh, she's just a different
kind of queer person."

It's as if her queerness
is now erased.

She is just a person trying to
find love, find companionship,

find someone who will be her
equal in so many things,

and I think that's touching.

To immediately halve
your options

by eliminating
the possibility of finding

that one person
within your own gender--

that just seems stupid to me.

It's hard to pinpoint
bisexuality

as a media representation
because it really operates

between two polar extremes.

There's the invisibility

and then there's
the hyper visibility.

So the invisibility refers
to the fact

that bisexual stories
haven't been told for very long.

Language is really important.

Being able to have a way
to talk about something

gives us the ability
to be that.

So if you don't have something
to call yourself,

how do you explain it to the
people who are important to you?

I'm not even sure
bisexuality exists.

I think it's just a layover
on the way to gay town.

When are you gonna make up your
mind between dick and pussy?

And spare us
the gory bisexual details.

Well, I'll see
your fugitive former flame

and raise you
a lesbian daughter.

Marissa?

Well, I'm sure it's just
a phase.

It was for me.

The hypervisibility is
all of the stereotypes

that we attach to bisexuality,
and "Chasing Amy"

brings up
a lot of those things.

The idea that bisexuality
is associated

with promiscuity
or sexual experience.

People often think of bisexual
people as being confused

because they aren't being true
to themselves.

A lot of that confusion
comes from the social scripts

that are laid in front of us.
It's the cultural context.

It's not that that person
doesn't understand

how they individually feel.

All right, y'all, ready?

One, two, three.

The coverage?

Yeah. One, two, three.

Take me through the genesis
of you two meeting.

I've heard Kevin's point
of view on it.

Well, Kevin has a far
superior memory than I do.

That's just a very nice way
of saying,

"Kevin cared more
than I ever did."

I remember meeting you.
All right, let's hear where.

It's a boring story
if I just say, like,

"Yeah, I walked onto set,
and he was there."

Is that where we met?
That's where I remember.

See?
I care more than she does.

We met in an audition
for "Mallrats."

- Okay, but that's where it--
- You did walk into a room.

That's where it gets
a little hazy for me.

You don't remember this?
Fuck.

This is why we broke up.

So did you guys start doing it
while you were

still in production,
or did you wait till "Mallrats"

was finished shooting?

"Bio-dome" was--
I was shooting "Bio-dome."

You were shooting--
No, I was done with "Bio-dome."

You were done--
We hated each other.

When I started dating Joey,
which was after "Mallrats"--

We met on "Mallrats,"
and we had great chemistry.

Like, just fooling around.
We'd make fun of each other,

mock each other, like,
all the time and shit.

I didn't realize
we were flirting.

That's how I talked
to most girls.

On "Mallrats," when he first
gave me my line reading,

he also told me
what to do with my hand

while I was saying the line,

and I almost had to leave
the room for a second

just to sort of--
you know,

my face turned red
and it's just so enraging.

But you just learn
to swallow your pride

and then you see
your performance

and you see the take
that when you did it your way

and then the take when you did
it his way and you just go,

"Oh, he's right."

She was just cool. Joey was
like, fun to be around.

Because I think he's funny.

- That helped.
- I would really laugh hard--

He could really make me laugh.

But not-- but it wasn't like--

you didn't give it away
for free.

You made me earn it and stuff,

but, like--
they were all top shelf.

The one time she said, like,

"You're the funniest person
I know,"

like, that's--
that's fucking everything.

It's nice when you do
a dramatic scene.

They called cut and it was
the greatest thing in the world

to have my boyfriend
come over and-- and hold me.

She was literally my muse.
I had a real insecurity

about, like,
she had a bigger past than me.

The scene in "Chasing Amy" where
Holden is like, baiting her...

Do you know a guy
named Rick Derris?

- Rick Derris?
- Yeah.

Sure. We used to hang out
in high school.

That was me.

I admired Kevin so much

because he had found
such a strong voice

and knew who he was without
having to go live in Bali.

...Alyssa, with you,
because...

I feel inadequate,

because you've had
such a big life

and so much experience,
and my life's been pretty small

in comparison.

That doesn't matter to me.

It did start functioning
as I'd write a scene

and give it to her.

We'd talk about it and, like,

she'd get emotional
because you were like,

"This is an apology." That scene
in the movie is kind of like,

"Oh, Holden figured it out,
too."

And then, of course,
Holden figured it out

because the guy who writes
for Holden figured it out.

Looks like a very
personal story.

I finally had
something personal to say.

"Chasing Amy"
has touched me in ways

that I didn't anticipate.
I wanted to feel love so badly

watching that movie.

I was like,
"I want some of that."

It's a roadmap of how to not
fuck up your relationship.

I think even calling you
"best friend,"

it didn't cover
what I felt for you.

ICE RINK

It was just like,
this is, like, a soulmate.

We were bonded on,
like, some next level.

I could talk to you
about anything,

and you just kept me going.
And, you know,

I think I did that for you, too.

You were so supportive at a time
when I was...

so alone in the world.

I mean, it was dark times
for both of us.

Every night you would just have,
like, these dark thoughts.

You would just talk about how,
you know, you hated--

you hated school
and, like, you hated your life.

The main thing was that
you just felt, like,

so alone in the world.

And I just remember being, like,
so adamant.

You have me, You have me,
You have me.

Maybe it's not enough,
but it's something.

I could just be this tiny,
tiny thing

that maybe was worth it--
you know, staying alive.

I feel a lot of shame
about that period.

- You shouldn't.
- I do.

I feel so much shame
because I put a lot on you.

But it's not about
putting things on me.

We were--
even before we were dating,

we've always been a team.

Can we cut?

We about ready?

Everybody speeding?

"Chasing Amy," well received.

Gets great fucking reviews
up there.

It did as it was intended.

Popped Joey in a big, bad way.

She was getting press
like crazy.

- But it was--
- Well, I'm a fan of this one.

Sounds like--

Her and I would do press
together as well,

which was kind of fun.

And our relationship started
kind of faltering and stuff.

Movie came out in April of '97.

We were broken up by July of '97
and the relationship was over.

You came on the show
when "Chasing Amy" came out

and we were rooting
for you then,

and this is very exciting
and you deserve this.

The Golden Globes ceremony
is going to be on January 18th,

so we'll cross
our fingers for you.

Thanks so much for coming.

It's very easy to romanticize
the end of the relationship

and be like,
"Our relationship was sacrificed

on the altar of 'Chasing Amy.'"

Like that's where
our relationship went.

Like, "I'm not saying
if there was no movie,

we'd still be
fucking together today."

Just putting everything out
there probably brought it

to an end a lot sooner than it
maybe might have naturally gone.

I never have a single regret
about it.

There's no way I would be
in a marriage

that has lasted 20 years
if I didn't meet Joey

and she didn't shape me.

When you watch "Chasing Amy,"
the tail end of the movie,

and you get this feeling like
he might figure it out one day.

And the scene in "Reboot"
allows you proof that,

like, he worked it out.

Alyssa and I aren't married.

Married people
don't like each other.

We're co-parents.

Wait a sec.
You have a kid?

Yeah. Alyssa and her partner
wanted to have a baby,

and since we've known each
other, and more importantly,

liked each other for 20 years,
they asked me to be the father.

In making that
little "Chasing Amy" sequel

in the middle of "Reboot,"

I kind of got to go
and address the criticism.

It's always a story
that should have been told

from a queer perspective
or a woman's perspective

or any perspective
other than cis white male's.

What was really beautiful to me
was catching up with Kevin

and hearing him talk about
where he was in his life

and where the scene came from
for him.

In the first draft
of the scene,

Holden and Alyssa had sex
to have the baby.

And so Joey was like, "Kevin,
you can't do that."

Like, I just had a remarkable
conversation with you

about how much
the movie meant to you,

but I almost didn't.
I almost just wrote back like,

"Oh, it's great. I love it.
Can't wait to shoot it.'

How wonderful that somebody
who is such a fan of the movie

affected what
the storytelling would be.

That's crazy.

"Chasing Amy" has always, like,
in a weird way, been part of--

it's different in that way--
that Kevin and I were dating,

and he wrote it
when we were dating,

and it's about part
of our growth.

I walked out of
that relationship fixed,

and nobody really can say that

at the end
of a relationship.

It wasn't like we ended
like, "See you later, pal."

Like, you know,
it was kind of shitty.

Apparently, I wrote
a passive aggressive letter

and just left Toronto.
And left a broom.

And left a broom.
Well, she said she needed

a broom,
and it was such a fuck-you move

because she had told me,
like, at one point, she's like,

"I need a broom
for this place."

So I wrote this, like, Dear John
breakup letter and shit,

and I went out of my way
to buy her a broom

and left it with a note
and it's like,

"P.S., They say
it sweeps clean."

Oh, I was such an asshole.
But in any event,

it was-- like, I became
the person that I became

for the rest of my life
because of that relationship.

I never went back
to being the other guy.

Please know that I am
forever changed

because of who you are
and what you've meant to me.

Anyway.

That's all I got.
Thank you both for this.

- This is amazing.
- Thank you.

This is a dream
fucking come true.

Excellent job.
I'll see you tomorrow.

All right.
Well done, kids.

What are you doing tomorrow?
The one-on-one interview?

- Yeah. Yeah.
- All right.

Finally.
So great to meet you.

Guys, thank you so much
for everything.

Excellent job.
Look at you, making a movie.

I know how documentaries work,

and they always do this thing

where while the camera
is rolling,

before you're actually asked
a question,

they just, like,
do this thing of like...

me being uncomfortable.

I'm just gonna
let you keep talking then.

In 1994, lesbians
were not represented

except for movies like
"Desert Hearts"

and "Claire of the Moon."

Sex between women
is as raw as it gets.

What we did with "Go Fish"
was life-changing.

Why are you taunting me?

I don't need to be reminded
every day that

I haven't slept
with a woman in ten months.

Got letters from everywhere.

Young women telling me that
their lives have been changed

by seeing this movie.

We actually ended up becoming
poster children for lesbianism.

I'm not going to lie,

it was very challenging that
we made "Go Fish"

and Kevin met us

and he decided that this would
be an interesting subject.

He was like,
"What do lesbians do?"

And I just started talking about
what it means to be gay

to the mainstream world
for the first time in my life.

And so I-- you know, I just--
I'm like, "No, like, ask me.

Ask me what?"
Now, watching "Chasing Amy,"

I'm like, huh.

That idea-- when she says,
like, you know,

"I want to go fuck this girl."
And then he's like,

"What? How do you?"
You said fuck.

She said fuck.
You said fuck to that girl.

You said
that you'd fuck her.

And?

It gets into
a whole conversation

about the broader term
of fucking versus penetration.

Well then what's
with saying fuck?

Shouldn't you say
"eat her out?"

Or at least modify
the term "fuck"

with something like "fist?"

I'm like, "Hm, you're welcome,
Kevin Smith."

That is 100% a conversation
that we had.

Watching "Chasing Amy"
all these years later,

Kevin Smith has an ear
for dialog.

He's just really good at that.

There's so much in this movie
that makes me just happy--

happy to have been a part of it.
It is heartfelt, it is lovely.

It's so within itself.
It's so true.

There are a lot of, like,
subtleties about friendships,

particularly friendships
between men.

I feel generous in a way
that I 100% didn't

when I was that age,

and I had various decades
of dyke rage about it.

I was 25 years old,

and I had made a movie
about dykes

that no one had ever seen.

And I watched him
doing everything

and getting all the deals
and all the things.

The winners are "Clerks,"
directed by Kevin Smith.

Had our first screening,
was really good,

and the second screening
was was great, too.

There was a piece
in the New York Times

about it as well.

So then the buzz started,

and after that
we had a sit-down dinner

with Harvey Weinstein
and Miramax,

and-- and they were into it
and they picked it up.

And I remember just,
like, sitting with him,

just being like, "Dude,
do you see what's happening?

Like, you're getting all
the opportunities and I'm not."

He was like, "You're jealous,
and you're being weird."

I don't think we--
either of us knew

exactly what was
going to happen.

But what emerged was that

Kevin got an empire,
and we were just some dykes.

So you make "Chasing Amy"

- for $250,000.
- We did.

And you take the film back
to Harvey Weinstein.

Yes.

So, as you know,
we met with him up

at the Stein Eriksen Lodge,
and I pitched,

"We're going to make
the movie for this.

If you like it,
you keep it.

If not, we take it out
and sell it."

We took it back to him
and showed him the movie

in the Tribeca screening room.

He's crying, Harvey.

And he goes,
"That's a Miramax movie."

Which I loved at the time.
I loved hearing that.

You know, I thought
he was who I thought he was.

Now, put through the filter
of what we know...

tough to fucking feel
sentimental about it.

I mean, maybe that's
how I do feel-- sentimental.

I go, "How sweet."

Like that,
naive, like 26-27 year-old.

He just believed
everything he was presented.

We go to Sundance with it.

It was an amazing evening
and stuff.

Harvey had dollar signs
in his eyes,

and fucking everybody was happy,

and it would have been great
if it stayed that way.

This is Sundance '97.

So if you follow
the Harvey Weinstein case,

that's the year
with Rose McGowan at--

where he attacks Rose McGowan.

All of this was happening while
we were doing "Chasing Amy,"

telling, you know,
showing this movie

to the world
that's very feminist

and, you know, kind of
forward thinking and stuff.

I can't erase the past.

I can't go back and take
his name off the fucking movies.

I don't even own the movies
and shit like that.

I can't undo the fact that
my career is tied up with him.

- Hi, Joey.
- Hi.

- How are you?
- Good.

Good.

- We're at your house.
- We are.

Thank you
for letting us be here.

Yeah.

This is the first time
there's been a film crew inside.

Ask me something I haven't been
asked about "Chasing Amy."

Okay.

That's a lot of pressure.

I think I can-- You know what?
I think I can do it, though.

Can you?

This moment
is 13 years in the making.

I think the first time
I saw it,

I was like, "This is a love
story, and I want love."

Like I feel-- You know, I think
the first time I saw it,

I was, like,
very much Holden.

And then slowly, as I started
to know more about my sexuality,

this is my only reference point
to how I may feel

about having a fluid sexuality, right?

And that movie gave me that--
that reference point,

and it literally is how
I came out to my mom was--

because she didn't know
what pansexual was.

I was like,
"Do you remember 'Chasing Amy?'

I feel how Alyssa feels."

And that was the moment
where my mom was like,

"Is that all? Is that what
all this fuss has been about?"

Well, you have a very cool mom.

A very cool mom.

But anyway, so I feel like
I can ask you a question

that maybe you haven't been
asked a thousand times before,

but I will have to ask you
some very basic questions.

So you get this role.

It's written specifically
for you, it's tailored for you.

And then, you know,
but also,

there's this LGBTQ element
of it.

Was that daunting to play,
as somebody who's straight?

Slightly? I mean,
I think because the script...

was somewhat personal
between Kevin and I,

I felt I had a right to play
the role to some degree.

And my biggest fear was, like,
lipstick lesbian,

that sort of thing.

I didn't want her
to seem like that.

And I just kept thinking like,
you know, what am I going to do?

What am I going to do?
What am I going to do?

And then I just
realized that like,

I shouldn't do
anything different.

It's not a haircut.
It's not the jewelry.

It's not-- Am I going try
and play her butch? Am I--

Like,
just play her authentic.

For me to try and, like,
do what I think is gay

just seemed wrong.

Does it feel weird to be,

I don't know,
like, the face of "Chasing Amy?"

Yes. Yes.

Kevin wrote that movie, not me.

It was my story,
to some degree,

but the film
wasn't my truth.

If I were to have written
a film

about Kevin and I's
relationship,

it would have been-- it
would not have been that film.

I was getting to play
a character

that was complicated
and amazing,

but for me to sort of
take credit

for how it affected someone
feels strange to me.

Whatever moved you
was Kevin's truth.

It wasn't my truth.

It's weird for a stranger
to put that on you.

There's a weird energy exchange
right here, and it's--

And I feel like--
Like, are you looking to me

for something
that I can't give you?

I don't know what it is
you want from me.

I don't know why you want
to talk to me.

I don't know.

It's cool that I get
to talk to you at all.

I hope we get to be friends
after this or something.

Right, but it's more
than that.

Like, you would not
have, like--

I mean, there's three cameras
in this room.

- Right.
- And you know what I mean?

Like, if you just wanted
to talk to me,

you could have come
to a convention I did.

- Sure.
- And come up to the table.

Like it's, you know--
like it's more than just, like,

"I just wanted to meet you
and talk to you."

Like, you wouldn't have...

been able to pull all
of this together.

Maybe what I'm here for is,
like,

we have been
strangely connected

through my weird fixation
on this movie.

While I think
it's totally understandable

why I am fixated on this movie.
I think it's really rad that,

you know, giving a fucking
TED Talk about it.

You know, watching it 200 times
to not kill myself.

- Right. Right.
- You know, like that.

And that's not a thing
I'm trying to put on anybody.

But like, that's literally what
my life was.

My journey with it
was so different from yours,

but it had just-- it had
a profound effect on my life.

We really hated each other,
and then we got together

and it's just great.

I'm so in love.

Kevin wasn't just,
like, a boyfriend.

Kevin was a very profound
relationship in my life.

How often do you sit with exes
and go back down memory lane

about a film
that you made together?

It wasn't fun getting shit
constantly about having been

with other men,
having gone to Bali.

There were fights
and they were-- they hurt.

You know, it was painful.
It was really, really painful.

As much as I loved Kevin,

it's really awful to be
in a relationship with someone

who, like, never believes
that you love them.

Why me?
You know? Why-- Why now?

Where you're constantly
having to be, like,

"But I wouldn't be with you
if I didn't love you."

- Who's my favorite director?
- Yeah.

- You can't ask me that.
- Why not?

Because we'll fight
all the way home.

Yeah, exactly.
I got to go home with this guy.

Oh, no.

It wasn't this cathartic
thing that I think

it was for Kevin.

It's not like, you know--

Like we did that movie
and everything was resolved,

which Kevin talks kind of
like...

He wrote the movie
and figured it all out.

While we were making
"Chasing Amy,"

for the first time,
I actually had this moment

where I was like,
"My God, I think I've grown."

I was doing a lot
of emotional directing.

I'm glad that he made a movie,

like, acknowledging
that it's fucked up,

but it doesn't change the fact
that, like, he made me feel bad

for having lived the life
I had lived

and been who I had been.

Right.

Because he was insecure.

I still carried...

what he had put on me.

"You're with another man?
How dare you?"

What the fuck's wrong with you?

How could you do
all those things?

Easily!

- It's a lot.
- Yeah.

Wow.

That's-- That's, like,
an enduring kind of,

like, fucked up thing.

Yeah.

And now there's this, like,
really neat little movie

where everything is, like,
kind of tied up in a bow

because he gives a speech
in a diner.

But what I did not get--
she didn't care.

She wasn't looking
for that guy anymore.

She was-- she was looking
for me-- for-- for the Bob.

And it's like,
everything wasn't okay.

We had still lived
through that.

By the time I figured
this all out,

it's too late.

- She moved on.
- I love the movie.

I'm glad I made it,
but it's, like,

I had to take all of that
and put it back on Kevin

because it's not mine to carry.

It's a lot to deal with.

Wow. Sorry. I'm still--

- I'm just processing all this.
- No, no, no, no.

Um, wow.
I love that this is, like,

unlike any "Chasing Amy"
interview I've ever done.

- See?
- And I might regret it.

- I don't know, but--
- I hope not.

I don't love looking back
on that time.

It brings up, like,
all of those--

those feelings of, like, that--
not just boyfriends,

but, like, casting directors
and producers of just like,

"You're just a piece of meat.
You're a whore."

I know that he gets asked
that since we date,

like, what do I look like naked
and things like that.

"What's it like
sleeping with her?"

That was when Harvey was around,
who treated me like shit.

And I was, like,
a young actress in Hollywood,

going through all those stories
that you've heard.

Me like you.

Oh, I like you.

Hi.

Sundance, for me, was like,

"Oh, Harvey's, like--
doesn't want to fuck me, so--"

You know,
and there was that energy there.

I mean, we all knew
who Harvey was.

You'd be in a room with him
and you could feel it.

Rose was getting raped.

You know, there was
another side to--

to the, like, "We made a movie
that went to Sundance,

and it did really well."
And there's a dark side, too.

I don't wish that like, "God,

I wish we were back doing
'Chasing Amy.'"

Like, that was not, like,
the best time in life for me.

So how do you feel
about being nominated tonight?

It's wonderful.

I mean, MTV, it's-- I think
that's more my audience

with a film like "Chasing Amy."

So it's an honor.

It really is.

It's that A.D. who's like,
"Come sit in my lap.

Come sit in my lap.

Come on. It's just fun."

Did I make you uncomfortable?

- No, no, no, no.
- I'm sorry.

You know how to make
a boy feel horny.

And you have to do it because
you can't be the actress

that's like, "Fuck you.

I'm not going to sit
in your lap."

Then you're difficult and
no one wants to work with you.

I went back through my IMDb,

of just like,
"Oh, right, on this movie...

Oh, and on that movie...
and on that movie,

the actor would come in
and show us his dick."

I hated Harvey.
I hated being around him,

and I hated how Kevin had
to kiss his ass.

And it's, like, it's hard
to go in as an actress

and like,
knowing that, like,

Harvey doesn't want you
to play the role.

And then for him to never call
and just be like,

"God, I've seen dailies, Joey,
and you're doing a great job."

Like he's just
a fucking asshole.

Like, that's what I was doing
in my 20s.

I was trying to, like, be taken
seriously as an actress,

and then I was dating this guy

who made me feel bad
about myself.

Tonight's nominees for
Best Performance by an Actress

in a Motion Picture,
Musical, or Comedy are...

Joey Lauren Adams,
"Chasing Amy."

You see why when you're like,

"Oh my God, 'Chasing Amy'
and this great--"

And, like, again, yes, the movie
is great and it's amazing,

but it's, like,
I have my own story with, like,

what was going on in my life
when-- at that age

and what surrounds that.

And it's those guys-- having to
go to dinner with old men

and being promised roles
and not getting them.

And for Kevin,
it's a funny fucking story.

Yeah.

And not to say that Kevin
writing that movie

didn't mean a lot to me.

You know, that he could see
at least,

like, what he was doing
was wrong.

But it doesn't change the two
years that, like, I lived it.

I'm really grateful still
that you were in this movie.

I am, too.
I mean, I'm incredibly grateful.

And I'm-- And I'm-- you know,
I am so happy that...

that it saved your life.

From the pain
and the fucked-up-ness

and everything, that something
this beautiful came from it

is incredible.

It could have just been pain
and fucked-up-ness

and you know,
nothing ever happened.

But that Kevin was able to make
something beautiful from it--

like, that's--
that's what's incredible.

Not me, you know?

I went back to Kansas
after the Joey interview.

I needed a bit of a break
from making this movie.

- Okay, well.
- I can do it.

- Is that how you cut hair?
- Yeah.

My grandma got sick with cancer.

I wanted to spend time with her,
I'd also just come out as trans.

And I really wanted
to transition privately,

with my family's support.

I've never had a partner
cut my hair before.

You've never had
a partner before?

I-- I dated people before you.

And I really needed
perspective.

Was I naive to go into
that interview the way I did?

Do you want that, like,
completely above your ear or?

Hey, Mom. Can you help her?

Just--
It's about what you want.

I don't know how to--

This is finally
your opportunity.

I don't know how to answer
that question.

I just needed a minute
to collect myself

and to not live
in "Chasing Amy" world.

I'll organize socks.

Yeah, I was going to say that,
because that's about

where your area of expertise
begins and ends.

Wow.

Thank you for doing
the laundry.

You're welcome.

I kind of lost steam--

lost a sense of purpose-- where
I was at with the documentary,

what I wanted to do,
who I want to be.

- Happy birthday.
- Happy birthday.

- Hello.
- Hello.

- You look cute.
- Thanks.

- Do you like my camera?
- I do.

- It's very high tech.
- I know.

Look at that.
It's the future.

Oh, you can see my mustache.

Of course you can.

It's barely there,
but you can see it.

After a while,
I reached out to Kevin,

and I was just like, "Hey, man,
can we just, like, catch up?"

I got to say, before,
when we first snapped onto Zoom

and I had my--
my windows blocked

because I was closing
other windows,

so I didn't see you.

Yeah. And it threw me
because I was like,

Oh, Sav is having me set up
with some tech,

because it did not sound
like your voice.

That's six months
on testosterone, my dude.

So I've got, like,
a more noticeable mustache,

and then I've got, like,
a lot of hair under here,

but you can't really see it

because I have that Zoom filter
on that makes you look better.

I don't know about that filter.

In the next decade, I'll have
the the beautiful beard

that I've always, like, wanted
and seen myself having,

I'm excited.

Like, I know who I am.

You know, it's been
a long process to,

like, accept myself,
and it was really fucking scary.

And, you know, I'm grateful
for your support.

It was just nice to have
an outside person who, like,

I finally told to just say like,
"Hey, man, you're okay.

Like, you're going to be fine
if you do this."

To me, it was like,
it's so weird

because almost from the
beginning of our relationship,

it was, like,
a matter of fact.

Well, I wanted you
to know me.

It's also a fascinating part
of the story.

Like, you know, first off,

I find you by the video,
the TED Talk,

and I was like,
"Oh, my God. Like, it's--"

Here's somebody saying
nice things about "Chasing Amy"

in 2020.

Like, that's-- that's rare.

But then when we meet,

it's like,
this story is going on,

it's still developing,
and it's the story of your life.

And in an odd way, our life
stories have now intersected.

I feel lucky that that you've
given me so much of your time

and your friendship
and mentorship,

whatever the fuck this is, like,
I'm just grateful for that.

Are you kidding me?
As a story teller,

to have somebody talk
about the deep impact

that something you created made
on their life and stuff--

it was just confirmation

that you don't get
very often in life.

It was the gift of self back.

The first time we ever talked,
you were like,

"You can never bother me."

And you explicitly said
that to me.

And while I sometimes feel
like I am bothering you

just by virtue
of I know that you're busy,

I do appreciate everything
that you've given me, too.

You've been there for me
before you were there for me.

It's not just "Chasing Amy"
at this point.

I gained a friend.

It's me paying you back.

It's not vice versa.

Don't you get it?
Like fucking that--

What you did, how do I pay
that fucking back?

You gave me my movie back.

- Are you eating a sandwich?
- Yes.

Thank you for making
this sandwich, Mom.

Provided by your mother.

I don't know what I learned
from this whole thing.

I'm a fundamentally different
person now.

Like, I feel guilty
about the TED Talk sometimes

because I feel like
you think it's,

like, Exhibit "A" of, like,
what you call bad parenting.

And I'm like, "You're the hero
in that fucking story."

Like, you are.

I knew that if I told you
everything,

every fucked up thing
that people did,

I would have to acknowledge that
those things were happening.

I think it was, like,
an internalized way of, like,

"I don't want my mom to know
I'm such a loser."

Like, that wasn't, like,
my thought process--

- Oh, Sav!
- What?

Oh, you're breaking
my fucking heart, kid.

I mean, but, like--
the fact that

you let me watch cool movies
was, like,

the bit of solace I had
when I was fundamentally

unable to communicate
any of these things to anybody.

That's good.

The hardest thing about
being a parent

is watching your child...

hurt and not being able
to fix it.

I just made so many choices

that were absolutely
the wrong choice,

not just for you, but for me,
you know, for us.

But I mean, I think
you are absolutely

the hero of of the story.

I know it's hard on you
sometimes, kid, but...

you're the one.

And a lot of things
could have been better for you,

you know, that I just
didn't really know about.

I didn't know about it either.

I couldn't even Google
trans stuff

because I was afraid
it would make it real.

Couldn't even tell--
I couldn't tell you.

I couldn't tell Riley.

I was worried Riley
would leave me.

She liked very feminine girls.
I was never a girl.

- Ready?
- No.

Let's talk about the fact
that you still call yourself

a lesbian, despite
being married to a man.

Very Alyssa of you.
Can you talk about the weight

of other people's opinions
on how you identify yourself?

It was a journey because,
you know, it all came to happen

when I was starting
to live my life,

you know, more freely as, like,

an out and proud queer person.

So I did start feeling
a little bit conflicted,

but I think that's why
"Chasing Amy" was so important

to me,
because it made me realize

how labels were
really not important.

And I remember, like, the impact
that Alyssa monologue had on me,

and I was like,
"She knows."

I feel justified
lying in your arms...

because I got here
on my own terms.

As empowering as it is
to have a label for yourself...

And I have no question there
was someplace I didn't look.

...I don't have to
explain myself to anybody.

So in the end,
all that matters to me is you.

Because this is my husband,
and this is the love of my life.

Did you ever consider leaving
me when I came out as trans?

No, because we had
been together for so long

and we had been friends
for even longer.

Life without you
was not an option.

What happened to me
in that moment

was that I just kind of started
freaking out about like,

"What am I going
to tell people?

Because I was just going around
yelling, 'I'm a lesbian,'

Now I'm with a man."
And then I was like,

"Well, you know what?

This is nobody's business
but mine."

I love you,
and I'm attracted to you.

Just be in love
and just honestly--

just celebrate the fact
that Sav...

can finally be happy
and live his truth.

- Good answer.
- Yeah.

I think it's your turn
to ask me some questions.

So...

The Joey interview.

Yeah, the Joey interview.

What were you thinking?

The interview with Joey
was definitely a turning point.

I learned a lot that day.

I'm sure it's much worse
for Joey, having "Chasing Amy"

be her most well-known movie
when she has

all of these negative feelings
associated with it

than it was for me to sit there
and have to grow up real fast

and to realign
my expectations.

I don't need "Chasing Amy"
the way that I used to,

and I shouldn't.

It was a life raft
when I needed it.

And now...

Now I have new dreams.

This is "I Love You,
Margot Robbie,"

written by Sav Rodgers
and Taylor Gates.

Are you actually
the real Margot Robbie?

If I'm not, I paid way too much
for the sign.

Got married.

Moved multiple times.

Uh, pugs, excuse me.

We moved to Vegas.

Moved out of your
parents' basement.

- Mm-hmm.
- How are you liking that?

I like living with you great.

You are my favorite roommate
I've ever had.

I've been making a documentary
that forces me to be reflexive

on the nature of my identity

and be in a pretty
vulnerable state

several hours out of the day.

It's not the movie
I set out to make,

but it's the movie we have.

What would you say you are
the most proud of?

I'm proud
that I followed through.

This was really hard.
All of it.

Boy from Kansas
with few connections

gets the chance
to tell a story,

connect with the guy that made
him want to become a filmmaker,

and in the process of trying to
tell this very specific story,

all of his dreams come true.

I mean, I've gotten everything
I think I've wanted out of this.

- Yeah.
- Have I thoroughly--

I think you got
some new shit.

Have I thoroughly asked you
enough questions

that are not your typical
"Chasing Amy" fanfare?

Yeah. Yeah.

Is that--
Is that a good thing?

It's a great thing.

Like, I think that, like,

I just didn't have
another bullshit

- "Chasing Amy" interview in me.
- Thank God.

- You know?
- Yeah.

And he gets to leave this part
of his life where it is.

I just feel lucky.

I feel lucky to have you.

I mean, I don't know
where I'd be without you.

This one time, you said,
you know,

"You're making a love letter
to Kevin Smith," or whatever,

but like,
you're the only person

I want to write
a love letter to.

If this movie doesn't say it,
let me just say it explicitly.

Like,
you are everything to me.

I don't need
"Chasing Amy" anymore

because I have something real
to attach myself to,

and that's you.

I...

will forever be better off...

because of what
you've been to me.

And I don't mean
to paraphrase Holden there, so.

Thank you.

Thank you.

After you.

♪ Asleep in electric beds

♪ Counting all our sheep

♪ But the sky
up above our heads ♪

♪ It opened up

♪ A note from a stranger read

♪ You had to give
into the things ♪

♪ That stand before you

♪ And still the distance
from your house ♪

♪ To my front door

♪ It's exactly the same

♪ You said it's terminal

♪ The way I clean my sheets

♪ Such a poetic phrasing

♪ Don't you know
it's wasted here ♪

♪ Ba-ba-ba ba-ba ba-ba-ba

♪ Ba-ba-ba ba-ba ba-ba-ba

♪ Ba-ba-ba ba-ba ba-ba-ba

♪ Ba ba-da-da

♪ Ba ba da

♪ And on the 4th of July

♪ We both looked to the sky

♪ And watched the stars
exploding ♪

♪ All around our heads

♪ And on the 4th of July

♪ We both looked to the sky

♪ And watched the stars
exploding ♪

♪ All around our heads

♪ And still the distance
from your house ♪

♪ To my front door

♪ Well, don't you know it's

♪ It's exactly the same