Original subtitles

Hey, Erik. Sorry.

It's okay. There's nothing else to do.

Uh, I know, right? It's just terrible you're locked up in here.

But that is what I am here for, right?

You don't smoke, do you?

No, never.

Good.

It is a disgusting habit, and I will never kick it. I know it.

I wish I never started.

Yeah, my... my dad smoked.

- It just always disgusted me. - Good.

Just the smell of it in his mouth.

Well, I always try to chew a piece of gum afterwards.

No, it doesn't bother me with you.

Okay, good.

Don't ever start, okay?

Mmm.

Uh.

So...

Yeah, so...

How you doing in here?

Uh, not, uh... Not great.

Sure. But you're eating now, yeah?

Yeah. It's more that, uh, ever since they found that letter and Lyle got moved,

I've been here in 7,000 by myself now, kinda.

I... I found a friend who's just made being in here easier,

but, um, on Saturday, he was just gone.

Oh no.

Yeah, just... I don't know whether they moved him or where he went, but...

Well, I'm sorry.

It was just out of nowhere, so I've just been feeling kind of, uh...

- Lonesome. - Yeah.

Well, I'm sorry about that.

And, Erik, I'm sorry about what we have to talk about now.

Okay.

- Because, you know, I talked to Lyle... - Yeah, I know.

Lyle's lawyer, Jill, was there too,

and I actually asked Jill if I could just come talk to you alone today.

Oh, okay.

And she was okay with that.

- I think I prefer this. - Okay, good.

Because I talked to Lyle about the things you told Dr. Vicary.

Yeah.

And, um, you know, rough stuff with Lyle,

but with your dad too, and... and the objects,

and the things that Lyle did to you,

but also the things he knew that were going on with you and your dad,

and how he thought it had stopped, and when he found out it hadn't, that...

Yeah, all of that.

Yeah. And Lyle told you about his experience

with your dad, with the abuse, yeah?

Yes. That's what we, uh...

In the days leading up to that night, that's what we talked about,

kind of for the first time, like we were, uh, comparing notes.

- Sure. - I guess you could say.

But not... not in a happy way.

Like, it was good to finally talk about it,

to have it be out in the open.

Okay. And just to ask, just to say it out loud...

You believe him. Yeah?

- Yeah. I know he's telling the truth. - Yes.

- What? Am I supposed... - No, so do I.

I just... I just want to keep underlining that for all of us is all.

That however much you loved this man, he was a monster.

And that what he did was real.

And so, you know, I think that Lyle's point of view

is that however bad he had it,

and I really do get this feeling from him,

he feels you had it worse.

Yeah.

- Mm-hmm. - Yeah. It was, um, much worse.

- Can you... - Sure.

I just need you right now, if you can, to just tell me everything.

- Yeah. Okay. - Can you do that?

Yeah. I can.

Okay.

Um...

Where... Where should I start? I...

I know. It's awful.

Um...

Well, I guess... I would just ask...

Do you remember when it started?

Hmm.

Yeah, uh...

Well, it kinda seems like it was always happening,

because, I mean, I was always afraid of him.

- Your dad or Lyle? - My dad. I was never afraid of Lyle.

I always felt like Lyle was my, uh, my protector.

Even when he was abusing you?

Yeah. He... he wasn't.

I just mean that...

Like, my earliest memories are of running away.

You know, I was, like, five or something, and I wouldn't get far.

I would just get to, uh, my aunt's house just a few blocks down.

And it was like, um...

Well, because that's what Lyle said when he found out I was still...

He was... He was like, mad, right?

Hmm.

And he said, you know, "Erik, how could you let this happen?"

"Do you like it or something? 'Cause you could just run away."

I was like, "Because they always come find me."

Every time I tried, they would find me, and it just would get worse. So...

- So running away never helped? - No. No.

My mom and my dad and my whole family,

they were like this octopus that you could never escape from.

Because their tentacles would come and grab you?

- Or... - Yeah. Something like that.

Um...

But as far as when it started, Lyle thinks I was six.

And, uh, that seems right.

- That's when your father started with him. - Right.

- So that makes some sense. - Yeah. And I, uh, didn't...

Um...

- What? - Well, that's when I had Coach Wadlington.

I was six when I started with him.

And I remember it was happening around then, or...

Well, the massages did.

Erik, what?

- It didn't start out bad, you know? - Yeah.

It would just be after tennis, or after swimming, and...

Um...

- Mm-hmm. Go on. - Uh...

Well, I knew that my dad didn't like me.

How do you mean?

Just... He was always so mean.

You know, he loved Lyle, but he didn't love me.

And, uh, I could tell, but he would also say it.

- He'd call me these names and they were... - What kinda names?

Just stuff you shouldn't say to a... a kid. Like...

stupid, or faggot.

Okay.

And so then you're always trying to impress him, or to not make him mad.

And my mom would... she would do it, too. They would gang up on me.

Like, if I said I was scared of the closet,

they'd lock me in the closet until I stopped screaming.

And, I think they were laughing, so I knew I wasn't gonna die.

But still, it was just like...

"Why would you do that?"

Or, uh, the basement.

- They'd lock you in the basement? - Yeah. Because I was scared of it.

It was to toughen me up. And...

How long?

Just all afternoon, or until I stopped crying.

And my mom would do it too, but it was mostly my dad.

That's awful.

So, anyways, when, uh... when you know your dad thinks you're weak,

or, uh, I don't know, too scared,

or something, like, not tough enough.

And, well, then you start to think, "Well, I guess I'm not tough enough."

And he's always mad at you.

Like, then the times that he's not.

And the times when he takes you upstairs

and says, uh, "You know, let's take a shower,"

and he was...

Well, at first, he was, uh...

- Like, he was finally nice. You know? - Hmm.

Like, to see that side of him where he was, um...

- Tender. - Yeah.

Because it was then, like, he could stop being mad when no one else was there.

But around everyone else and even when family was over,

he would just call you those names or he would hit you

and everyone... everyone saw it.

But when it was just you and him, that's... that's when he would, um...

- What? - That's when he'd tell me he loved me.

- When he was abusing you? - Yeah.

It... it wasn't...

It was just the massages at first,

like, with oil, or he'd have his shirt off and I'd just be in my shorts, and it was...

- What? - All the other stuff hadn't started yet.

And so it was just like time

being with my dad where I felt like he cared about me.

And, uh, it was just me and him.

And that was good.

Like, those were my favorite memories.

Mm-hmm.

And then the massages changed?

Yes.

He would say, uh, turn over and he'd do my front.

And by front?

He'd massage my penis.

- Okay. - And so we'd fondle each other.

- But it... it still wasn't, uh... - What?

Like it... it wasn't scary yet, what we were doing,

except I think I didn't want to, like I would try not to do it.

The front part?

Yeah, because he'd be lying on his back and I'd try to skip that part,

and he'd say, "No, you have to do that."

And, uh, just... then the mouth massages as I got older.

Like Lyle said, with the objects and the toothbrush and...

How old?

Uh, definitely second grade 'cause...

- The toothbrush? - Mm-hmm.

Because I remember the day at school afterwards,

there was a picture of a toothbrush on the bulletin board or whatever,

just about how you should go to the dentist.

And, um, I remember thinking

that the toothbrush in the picture wouldn't have hurt as much.

Hmm.

Uh, and so there were four different kinds of... of sex with my dad.

There was nice, which was the, um...

Well, the massages came before, but...

Then, when he started making me use my mouth, it was just...

It was too big, and I, uh, I didn't... I didn't like that.

Yeah.

- Doing that to him seemed really dirty. - Yeah.

When he did it to me, that was...

But to him, the... the naked... He called them "naked mouth massages."

- Doing that to him felt really dirty. - Yeah.

Uh, and I didn't like it,

but he would say, you know, "You did good. Good boy."

And it was just...

the only time I felt like I had a real relationship with my dad,

where I felt that he did love me.

And, uh, they'd go on for a long time, the nice sex sessions.

Sometimes I started to wonder where everybody else was

just because they'd go on for so long.

And in a lot of ways, even though it felt dirty, it was also like...

like I was the center of the world for once, you know?

- Mm-hmm. - And it... it also felt...

Nice?

Mm-hmm.

Go on.

The objects were to get me ready.

Lyle and I realized that when we finally, um...

- When you talked about it. - Yeah.

And that he was, uh, preparing our bodies

for something bigger.

And, uh, at first he made me do it to him.

Do?

Sex.

Like, to penetrate him.

Hmm.

He always said he wanted to teach me how to use my... my penis.

- And that felt really dirty every time. - Yeah.

And I didn't like it.

And, um...

- What? - In order to do that, you have to be...

Erect.

That... That''s what was so, uh, weird about it.

And that I could ever...

- Um... - What?

- It's okay. - Or... orgasm.

That was, uh, really confusing to me at that age.

Of course it would be.

Uh...

And then he... he...

Then he started to rape me and that...

He'd take a slat from underneath the bed and he'd put it under the doorknob...

Oh my God.

And I... I would cry, and it hurt,

and he'd say, "You know, why can't you be like Lyle?"

"Just be a Menendez and get used to it."

And I just...

I remember feeling so, um... disappointed

because he was comparing us again,

Lyle and me, like I wasn't good enough again,

and like, all of the stuff that he'd said about loving me,

like, that was just gone.

Or like that had never even, like, happened.

How often did this happen?

The just sex?

Mm-hmm.

Um, like, two or three times a month?

From when?

Uh...

Like, junior high, I think.

So 11.

Mm-hmm.

Until...

- Uh, right before... - Right before they're dead?

- Yeah. Just a few months before. - Was the last time?

Yes.

Erik...

You were raped hundreds of times by your father?

Yes.

That was just what my life was like.

I'm so sorry, Erik.

It's okay. It's just...

You kind of, uh...

You get through it.

Yeah, and you just, um, survive, I guess.

You live for those times when it doesn't happen, you know?

And you think, like...

Well, I mean, you do get through it. It's like...

It's like... It's like Christmas morning, you know?

And you think, "Okay, I got through that,

I'm not gonna have to, uh, do that for a while now."

Or, "Maybe because this time, it was knees,

maybe next time, it'll be nice sex or maybe..."

Sorry. Knees?

Well, that was another one of the, um...

I had different names for things. Knees was... It wasn't my favorite.

It'd be when I do the mouth massages to him, and he would, uh...

What?

He would finish, I guess, in my mouth, and I just hated the taste of it.

That's why I started putting the cinnamon into his coffee

and putting lemon on my food and stuff.

- The cinnamon was for the taste. - To make it taste better.

So if I had done that or I had gotten through that,

I'd think, "Maybe next time, he'll do a mouth massage to me,

or it'll just not be the rough sex."

I just... I never wanted it to be the rough sex.

And what was rough sex like?

Uh, just...

Just...

hitting,

and, um, really painful.

He would get mean, and he would punch me, and he was really strong.

And I couldn't, um...

I don't know why, but for some reason, I just could never hit him back.

It was like when I was little, when I was running away.

Like, it just doesn't work. You...

You can't get out of it.

Like, he won't stop. You just have to do it.

You have to just try to, uh... to get... get through it.

But the, um, the rough sex was...

Hmm. What?

Uh...

I'd have to, um, kneel on the headboard.

But, like, at the end of the bed, like the foot of the bed.

But, like, it'd be into my shins.

So it'd be stuff to make it hurt.

Because he would always say, "This is what the Greeks did."

"This is how they toughened themselves up to make things not hurt."

So if it hurt, you had to try to get through it.

So I'd be inserting objects into my, um...

Or, like, with my penis, like pins or, uh...

Like, he cut my leg. Like, I've got a scar on my leg

because he'd be doing this stuff while I'd be doing the mouth massages to him.

And he'd be, uh, you know, just trying to toughen me up.

But, um, when...

when he's tying something around your penis, like a rope or, like...

like, I don't think that's supposed to make someone tough. Like...

No, it does not.

Wait, that's more kind of, like, torturing someone?

Yes, Erik.

And I just don't think that's what a father's supposed to, uh...

No, it's not.

Like, that's not what you do to someone you, um...

That's what you do to someone you hate, you know?

- Erik, you did not deserve that. - He'd call me these, like...

Sometimes it was what he would say that would somehow hurt even more, like...

Like what?

I just wanted to say to him, like, "If I'm such a faggot,

then why are you asking me to fuck you in the ass?"

You know? Like, that's...

- Yeah. - You know? And I...

- What? - I don't know.

- No, what were you going to say? - No, I don't know. I don't know.

And you're supposed to... I mean...

Like, this is a man who did such amazing stuff, you know?

Like, my dad was an amazing man.

I loved him so much. And I still love him so much.

And that's why I'm like... I don't wanna be in here for the rest of my life,

because, like, to have that thought, like...

to have that thought,

laying alone in here in a cell at night, all cooped up in here,

and to have that be a thought you're thinking...

What thought?

Like, that I love my dad.

Like, that's...

Like, it wasn't the rough sex, the pins, and the rope that were the torture. Like...

Like, that would be the torture. To, uh...

To still love him.

And that's why Lyle used to say, you know, "Erik, they'd be proud of us."

And I'd always agree with him.

But then later, I'd think, I mean, "They're not proud that we killed them."

But then, just the last few days in here,

and really since Saturday, like, just thinking a lot,

it just really occurred to me that...

What did?

That he probably would. You know?

Like in Heaven, right now, he'd be looking down, and he'd say,

"Thank you, Erik and Lyle."

"You know, you did what you had to do to me

because what I did to you was really wrong."

"And I love you."

"And you... you took that off my shoulders,"

or, "You took that off my soul," or whatever, if that makes sense.

- I don't know. - It does. It does.

"You made me into someone who doesn't do that anymore,"

is what Lyle meant, and what I mean.

So that now I could... Now we can love him again.

Really, for the first time, because he's not doing that anymore.

Wow.

So, that's why I don't want to be here, all alone,

with that thought banging around my head,

not without Lyle not here, and my friend gone now.

What?

No, I'm just... I'm just blown away by you, Erik Menendez.

- You don't... You... you shouldn't say that. - No, I mean it. I really, really do.

Really do.

I know a lot of people.

I know a lot of very impressive people,

and you are right at the top.

With everything you have been through and what you have had to do,

and who you are right now, telling me all of this...

The bravery, Erik?

You are just an incredible person, and I just have to say it.

- And... - Thank you.

I'm not gonna make this about me,

but, you know, my father was a fucking son of a bitch.

- Really? - Yeah. Yeah.

Abandoned me and my brother.

Just... This man that I loved, told me I was his little princess,

and he just dropped off without so much as a word,

ran away with another family, and I haven't heard from him in 34 years.

- And... - Oh, I'm so sorry.

Well, thank you. I... Nothing like yours.

I just say that by way of, you know, hearing all of this,

which is just mind-boggling,

and hearing it, thank you,

is just, you know...

You don't have to forgive him.

Your father. Okay?

My father wasn't one-tenth of one-millionth

of a percentage as bad as yours.

Okay, just no comparison.

And my brother, he's forgiven him.

You know, he talks to him.

But, Erik,

no fucking way will I forgive him for what he did.

Not now, not ever.

And I just say that 'cause you have that option, too.

- Okay? - Okay.

Because, you know, hearing all this,

I... I just have to keep asking myself and asking you,

where was your mother in all of this?

- Well, see because she... - Let's not make excuses for her.

He cheated on her.

And Lyle said he walked in on them one time, and my dad was raping her.

Okay, well, that's still...

My dad ruined her life, I think.

And she would sometimes say, which, well, wasn't even...

She would, um...

What?

With Lyle, she would sometimes... she would sometimes get naked.

- This is your mother? - Yes.

But it wasn't... it wasn't like it was with my dad.

She was...

She just wanted us to think she had a nice body, and she liked ours.

But it was just looking. Or...

Well, yeah, it was just looking.

She would...

When I was 16, she started doing this thing where...

Because I think by then, the stuff with Dad was intense.

And she...

My mom would do this thing where she would inspect my...

- Penis? - Yeah.

And, you know, she'd be like, "Why do you shave it all?"

And I'd be like, "No, Dad did that."

But I couldn't say that because, well...

It was weird 'cause we were close.

But then Dad also had these girlfriends,

so, I think that she also thought I was, too.

- Was what? - That I was sleeping with Dad.

So, I was...

She... she was...

I... I was coming between them.

And that wasn't ever something that we talked about.

Like, she would've never said anything.

It was something you knew, but didn't talk about

because that was just our family.

But I knew how she felt.

And her feeling that way was why I think she, like, made me get a girlfriend,

but she would do the inspections, right?

- Of your... - She'd do inspections of my... Yeah.

Because she was terrified of AIDS,

and she would always check me for blisters, like, on my penis.

And I think it was because it was a way to see if, like...

You know, because I think she knew that Dad and I were,

so if one of Dad's girlfriends had something...

- Hold on. - ...then I got it, that means she'd get it.

I wanna go back for a second.

Actually, it's not important.

- Forget that. - But why did she think you had AIDS?

- It's not important. Just forget it. - But why would she think that?

- I said, it's not important. Forget it! - What I mean is...

She just wanted to make sure, so she'd do those inspections. That's why.

But why would she think you would get AIDS?

And before you answer that, I just wanna say that I'm not your mother.

Okay? And frankly, I don't like your mother.

- Yeah, but she was... - I'm sorry. No. That's not a mother, Erik.

Okay? And I am a mother.

Wasn't the perfect one, I'm sure.

Maybe that's why I want another shot at it, okay?

But for you to... I mean, I know you loved her.

I do. We were really close.

Lyle and her weren't, but me and her, we were.

- Everyone's gonna love their mother. - Yes, and I do.

But for her to have known, and to have not intervened...

Yes. Because she was...

No, but let me... I'm sorry. Let me just say this and we can go back.

Because there were a lot of avenues that she could have taken there, okay?

Where she could have gone to the authorities,

where she could have said, "No, not my sons."

"You will not abuse my sons!" Right?

- Yes. - And that's a pretty low bar, okay?

And she didn't do that.

She didn't do any of that.

Not because of you. Look at me.

Not because of you, but because of her.

Okay?

So for you to...

Yes, you can love her.

Yes, you can sympathize with her, and then I wanna ask you something.

I wanna say this to you, and I'd say it to Lyle...

You deserved better than her.

I won't even mention your father. That goes without saying.

That man is in a place is all I'll say.

But your mom too.

And if what you are saying is true, and what Lyle is saying is true,

you deserved better.

Okay? So that's just where I'm coming from.

But, Erik,

can you tell me why she thought you had AIDS?

Can you just tell me?

Well, see, um,

this is what's so hard.

What?

About...

Because I don't know.

I don't know what way you are and what way you're supposed to be

when that's your childhood.

Like, when that's what your dad's doing to you. Like...

Well, I remember one time, my mom, she called Lyle and me,

and I don't think she meant it,

but she screamed at us, like, "You're sociopaths!"

And a part of me was like, "Well, maybe we are sociopaths,

but can you blame us if we are,

when you know what's been happening to us?"

So, like, the feelings I have of, like...

sex stuff or, um, or...

- Orientation. - Yeah.

Or of Dad's, or like whatever feelings I have, or which way I...

Like, I just...

I don't... I don't know if it's me or how I was supposed to be.

And, uh, that's why she...

With the inspections when I was 16 because...

It's okay.

I don't want to say who it was, but, um...

I was...

I was kind of in love with a boy.

Or a teenager like me, who was a boy.

Okay.

But it was because I was having sex with my dad,

like, that's not normal.

And that made me not normal. And so he wasn't... He didn't...

He... This boy, he didn't have a dad who did that to him.

He was just always that way, but I'm not sure I was,

and I'm... I'm not sure I am, but like, I have those feelings. Like...

I was in love with someone, and, uh...

he, this boy, we said we would never say each other's names and I won't.

But when we had sex then, it was... it wasn't like it was with my dad.

It was...

Nice.

It was really nice.

It was really nice.

And in here, it was... was really nice, but now it's...

Whatever. It doesn't matter. But, um...

Okay.

- Okay. - No, actually, I don't think you, uh...

No, I understand.

No, I... I think you think I'm saying something different than I am.

Like, yes, I've done certain things.

And so, you know, you're gonna say I'm one way,

and you're gonna tell everyone I'm one way, but I'm not.

- No, I'm not. I'm not gonna tell anyone. - I'm actually... No.

Okay. But what I'm saying is...

I'm just saying, I don't know.

Okay? I don't know what I am.

I can't tell what I am, and I never will be able to tell is what I'm saying.

And yeah, maybe I am a sociopath,

and maybe I should've got AIDS, and maybe I'll only like it this way.

Because with girls, it was like,

how could I even know when he's done this to me?

When it's been happening for so long, I don't remember when it started.

When I can't remember a time when my dad wasn't fucking me.

- Like, he broke me. I'm a broken person. - No, you're not.

Yes, I am. He broke me in two. He cracked me in half.

- I am not a real person. - You are a real person.

You can't be when the only man you wanna love

does that to you, you stop being real.

- You are real. - Stop saying that.

Just stop.

I am the Hurt Man.

What is the Hurt Man?

It's me.

- That's the name for yourself? - Yes, since I...

- Since when you were little. - For as long as I can remember.

That's what I call myself.

Since forever.

That's always been my name.

And it's never gonna end.

And it's never gonna not hurt.

I shot my mom in the face.

And my dad, I think.

That's not a... That's not a normal thing you do.

So... I don't know what I am.

And I don't think I'll ever know

is what I realized since Saturday if I don't get out of here.

- I will get you out of here. - No. Stop, stop saying that.

I will never really know who I am if I don't get out of here.

I'll never know.