All language subtitles for Death.By.Metal.2018.720p.WEB.H264-AMRAP

- I went to a party, it
was like late, late 1982.

There was local parties
in certain neighborhoods.

They would have bands
play and charge whatever,

five bucks to get in
and have a keg of beer

and just come in
there and hang out

and watch local band
play cover songs

in the backyard
instead of in a bar

and Chuck just
happened to be there

and we just struck up
conversation coincidentally

and had a lot of the
same musical influence

and stuff like
that so me and Kam

dropped out of
high school first,

pretty much the
same time then Chuck

dropped out a week or two later

and then we pretty much
spent seven days a week

in his garage.

Everybody heard
the music because when he

started the band Mantas,
it started coming

from the garage and
we were, my parents

were trying to figure out ways

to soundproof the garage
and everything else.

All the way up way
away you could hear,

actually you could
feel the vibrations,

the drums and stuff.

- Chuck had a really
great infrastructure

in terms of his, in
support from his mom, Jane,

and she allowed him
to follow his dream

to be a musician no
matter where it took him.

Whether that meant
bailing him out of Canada

when things didn't work out
with the Slaughter lineup

and helping him get back home

or whether that meant
putting up people

who were moving halfway
across the country

to join his band
or jam with him.

- They would pretty
much, there were times

they would come over for dinner

and it was always
a family dinner

and mom would say
oh, what's going on?

Well where are you staying?

Oh no, come stay with us.

That kind of thing.

- That was after my son
Frank had passed away

so to me that was great.

They were all about the
same age and it was great.

They were wonderful,
wonderful kids.

Now they're grown men
and all but back then.

- She believed in
him as an artist

and I think that
considering the art

that he was writing and
performing at that time,

that's a pretty
sizable leap of faith

because I think most parents

would just be like
what is this shit

that you're doing?

- It was never
like that with her.

It was always complete
support and love for Chuck

and not to exclude
his dad as well.

His dad probably tolerated it

more than loved
what he was doing.

- And we both had
a mutual friend

that went to school with me.

One day he invited me

to come over to his house
and listen to some records.

I went over to David's
house that afternoon

wearing my cutoff jean jacket

and my Iron Maiden
shirt or whatever.

We each got an armful of albums

and eventually Chuck came over

and he's wearing his
cutoff jean jacket

and we're all wearing
our cutoff jean jackets

so that was like
standard issue back then

and on the back of
his cutoff jean jacket

he had this drawing
on the back of it

of this crazy evil
looking creature

that said Mantas
across the top of it

and then along the
bottom it said Florida's

original death metal band.

At that point I
hadn't heard Possessed

but I asked him about it.

I'm like what's that
and he's like oh,

that's my band Mantas.

We're Florida's original
death metal band.

He said it just
like it was written

across the bottom of the jacket

and I was like cool,
death metal, right on.

Haven't heard of that yet.

I was lucky and found
out about underground metal.

Just by chance there
was a record shop

that carried Metal Forces and I

got the second issue
with Dio on the cover.

You know the one.

- You didn't have access
to this stuff otherwise.

There was no other
way to get it.

These records or these
recordings weren't in stores.

They only really had
the major label stuff

and maybe a couple of
independents, Metal Blade,

the early Roadrunner stuff.

Loudness and stuff but
there was way more out there

and because of the groundwork
No Life Til Leather

had created and this network

that it had created
globally, you had a lot

of hardcore fans.

- And people would
have like catalogs

of what all demos they owned.

It could be a whole photo album

full of just titles of
demos and live shows

and stuff like that and just
fill up a 90 minute tape

with however many demos or shows
you could squeeze on there.

- And then go and scribble
out a track listing,

find a package, get to a
post office and mail it,

cross your fingers
that it got there

and hope that whoever
you sent that tape to

will be cool enough to
send you something back.

- I didn't realize
until Frank the mailman

said Jane, I'm a little
worried about Chuck

and I said why.

He said well, look at this.

It was addressed
to Death and stuff

and I said he's doing
all that in his room.

- I remember that
Chuck in his bedroom

had all of these
envelopes and he

would be on the
phone and sometimes

with really big phone
bills to my parents

talking to people and
trading tapes back and forth.

- So I thought that
was really cool

that they were making their
own music and sharing it

and spreading the
music and that's

how a lot of these
bands became popular.

- Be able to put a jam box down

and hit record
with a tape player

outside the garage with
a towel over top of it

and it sounds okay to where
people can listen to it.

- And they would play
for hours, practice

for hours, all day
Saturday, all day Sunday.

Basically you couldn't
go in your own house

on Saturday and Sunday.

- And one day he comes in,

he had a box of cassettes
and they were Death cassettes

and he had a stack of
t-shirts and he's like Freddy,

would you mind?

I wanna put my
music in your store.

Would you mind selling
it, consign it?

So I said yeah,
absolutely, I'd love to.

This is like maybe
a day or two passed,

I called Chuck and I'm like
Chuck, hey, it's Freddy

and right away
he's like oh, dude,

you don't wanna
carry my product.

I said no, man, I sold
out of your cassette

and the shirt.

- So a friend of mine works
for a small radio station

in our area and she
came up to me one day

and said hey, this
guy is looking

for new members for
his band called Death

and I was just
thinking to myself

there's no way
it's the same band

or the same guy 'cause
I'm already into this

so I said yeah, give
me the phone number.

Let me call it.

And talked on the phone.

Try to feel things out.

I was kind of worried because
I was only 17 at the time

so I'm like yeah, I like
Artillery and I like Sodom,

Slayer or whatever and
he played me some riffs.

He's like yeah, let me
show you these riffs I got.

It's this song called
Scream Bloody Gore.

Well, that's a good title.

It's to the point.

I got the Sadus DTP
demo, Death To Posers.

I'm like oh, okay,
a local band, cool

and they're fucking badass.

That tape is a screamer.

- And the phone rings
and one of the guys

says man, you're not
gonna believe this

but there's a guy on the phone

saying they play in
a band called Death.

The name's not too serious
because it was too obvious.

Well it was no big deal because
they said they got the demo

and they liked it and
they wanted to hang out

so like alright.

Let's see what these
guys are all about.

- The whole band Sadus
actually piled in a car

and they came over to my house.

They just showed up.

I met the band
Death which was two guys.

A funny accented
guy from Florida

and a young skinny dude that
was still in high school.

They all had
like matching denim vests

or jackets and looked
like a fucking gang

and we went and we hung out,
smoked joints or whatever.

- And we were fans of Rush
and Maiden and everything.

Everybody's got the big kit.

During the day we would go
up to where they practiced

and Chris has a big
shining white drum kit.

John was looking at that
like man, that's great.

Killer, you can do a
lot of stuff on that set

and then when Death
would come over

to our practice house
they were really

digging our situation
and the room we had.

The deal was made pretty easy.

It's like Chris said
man, if you guys

let us come here and practice

I'll leave my kit set up.

Told John you can play it.

John was like oh wow, cool

and they had all these new toys.

- At that point,
Chuck was still living

in Antioch with this lady
who was managing the band

and she found this little studio

and we rented a bass 'cause
we didn't own a bass.

It was just me and him.

We couldn't find band
members ironically.

It wouldn't be
like that nowadays.

I remember being super
happy with how it came out.

It was pretty crushing.

It just evolved
out of five different demos

until April of 86, we
recorded our fifth demo

and we got signed finally
to Combat Records.

- And originally they
had a series they did

of bands that they
were kind of afraid

to take a chance on where
they put out a record

with a plain white sleeve

and a camouflage
sticker on the record

and that's what they
wanted to do, Combat,

and somehow she talked
them into turning it

into a proper record
deal and Combat

trusted us to find a
studio to record in

which turned out
to be a big mistake

so what happened
was Chuck wanted

to go back to Florida
and I actually went along

and stayed for the summer of 86

and we looked through
the phone book,

okay, there's a
studio in Orlando

and we talked to
a guy named Otto

and we were
explaining our vision.

He just gave us the blank look

like I have no idea what
you're talking about

but I'll record your band.

We might have just been
talking Klingon to him.

It would have been
the same thing.

So anyways, we start recording

and I remember the first
thing that was weird

is you know how you, you know,

tone down drum heads
by putting pads

with like tape on
'em or something,

he stuck a fucking
Maxipad on my floor tom.

I'm like I don't like this.

That's not what I would do

and now I have to
look at this thing

every time I hit
the drum so fuck.

So we got through
I think seven songs

and Combat had a
listen and they said no

so they just wrote
off that first session

as a mistake and booked
time in Los Angeles

with Randy Byrnes and
that was insane for us.

Like yeah, we can work
with fucking Randy Byrnes.

The key to Scream Bloody Gore

with Randy Byrnes.

Randy had experience
recording heavy thrash

so he was able to have
some kind of frame

of reference and didn't
throw his arms up

like what are you guys
trying to do here?

It was like alright, this
is what you wanna do.

Got it, let's do it.

That made all the
difference in the world.

For what death metal
would be defined by,

Scream Bloody Gore
is at ground zero

because it was the first record

that was released
on a record label

that had a legitimate release

because prior to
that you could not go

into a record store and
buy a death metal record.

- It didn't just come out.

It kind of started.

I know that people say
it was either Possessed,

Seven Churches or Death,
Scream Bloody Gore

but I listen to the performance
of Scream Bloody Gore

in comparison to Possessed,

I felt like Seven Churches
was kind of sloppy

and then you hear
Scream Bloody Gore

and it's tight and the songs
are really well produced

and it sounds great.

- We were sitting
in Chuck's apartment

and the test pressings arrived

with two pieces of
cardboard cut out

with the vinyl in between it

and I guess somewhere in transit

the temperature got to
'em and they got warped.

- I mean playable but warped.

I thought it would
be a good idea

to set the test
pressing out in the sun

and let it become soft and
then kind of flatten it again.

- And we're sitting
there, it's almost

like waiting for a cake
to come out of the oven.

Finally we just put
it on the turntable.

I remember he put
the needle on it

and the waves, the
lumps in the vinyl

are going by and
the needle's flying.

A couple times it got
thrown off the record.

- It just turned
into this thing.

And it was completely
unplayable then.

- That was a major thing.

I'm on vinyl.

I'm 18, this is
an accomplishment.

- And I think they
only gave us one

because Chuck was living with me

and I fucking ruined it.

Steve did learn the set

and we jammed with him
in the Sadus jam room.

And we had plans for shows.

We even were starting
to draw the flyers

with the Death and Sadus logo.

- We had the set ready
to go and all that

and then Chuck
said hey, I'm gonna

go back to Florida
and visit my folks

and whatever, go
home for a while,

and so some time went by.

Well actually I
think quite a bit

of time went by,
like a few months

because I filled in with
a band called Desecration

for a while 'cause I
didn't wanna get involved

in another full time
band 'cause as far

as I was concerned I
could be in Death still

and then Chuck
finally said hey dude,

I'm here to stay.

I don't wanna come
back to California

and so I was bummed.

I'm like oh, that
sucks but okay.

He's like well, if you
wanna come move out here

we'll just keep on it and
get some other members

and just keep moving forward.

Massacre did a
tour of the east coast.

We came home from
that tour and...

- We were supposed open
for Megadeth and Overkill

at the armory in Tampa
and we got to the show

and we're told we
weren't gonna play.

- Megadeth's management had
one of their other bands

come in, Massacre was
kicked off the bill.

Well at that same show some guy

came up to Rick, said
hey, Chuck's in town.

He moved back to Orlando.

So a few days after that Rick,
he went to Chuck's house.

- Without calling
him or anything

showed up at the guy's house.

He doesn't have a
freaking clue why I'm here

so I just said hey, man,
this is what's going on.

If you have any
interest give me a call.

So he called me
the next day and I

called Bill and Terry and
they were really excited.

- We learned a few songs and
we got together and jammed.

It had been literally
three or four weeks

that we were together.

The first show was at
Milwaukee Metal Fest.

I remember actually
on the flight

going to Milwaukee
going over each song

because that's how fresh
the songs were in my mind.

- The United States back then,

they really didn't have
these three day festivals

and Death was one of
the bands on there

and they were I guess somewhere

like in the afternoon.

- I remember being
in the McDonald's

next door to the
Eagles Auditorium

which was where
this place was at

and these kids were talking
about the Mutilation demo.

These kids, they
were just normal kids

just like me and they were like,

they couldn't wait to see Death

and they were talking
about the Mutilation demo.

- Jack had been in
contact with someone

at Combat who said
we have this new act

and their record had only
been out a short time.

I heard the record
literally just one

or two songs and didn't
pay much attention to it

so I stood in front of the stage

and I watched all these
other standard thrash

and metal bands play

and then when Death came on

there was sort of
an anticipation.

- And I remember
when Death played,

one thing I remember about Chuck

was just he would
kind of stand kind

of stiff, kind of
still and when he'd

open his mouth for one
of this big screams

his tongue would
stick out a little bit

and he'd just omit this like...

- So I was back
stage meeting people,

talking to people
and I eventually

made my way over and
introduced myself,

said my name is Eric Greif,

I'm a manager promoter dude

and I live here in Milwaukee.

He had a card that
said Death on it

and had an address
for giving out

to people that he
tape traded with

and I got in contact with him

and that was like
their first real tour

where they came up that far,

had played shows on the
way in, on the way back.

- Started rehearsing
more and more

after that Milwaukee Metal Fest

and when word came down that we

had a tour lined up we'd already

started writing
new songs and Chuck

was presenting the
songs at practice.

Hey, check out these riffs.

A couple of songs
Chuck had already

completely mapped out,
had 'em already written.

He would just play and Bill
would put beats to 'em.

We actually started
playing a few

of the songs from Leprosy on
the Scream Bloody Gore tour

we did, we'd already had
two or three of those songs.

- I got a call from Dan saying
I got this record to do.

They call it death metal,
it's the band Death

and Scott, your assistant,
he'd do the record with me

'cause I always worked with Dan

with Savatage and
stuff like that

and then I also went and Scott

asked me, you help me
set the mix up right

so I went in and started the mix

but for me, Chuck
and I were just

telling jokes to each
other while I was doing it,

then Scott had to do
all the hard work.

- And when I heard the
final mix at the time,

I heard, I thought
it was amazing.

Now when I listen back to it

the drums are a hair loud,
blah blah blah, whatever

but I thought at the time it

was just the most amazing
thing I'd ever heard in my life

but it was my first
time in a studio.

It was all new to me.

The other guys had
been to the studio

recording an album or demos.

I had Scott Byrnes
staring at me.

Rick, Chuck, Bill looking at me.

The producer looking at me.

It's like come on.

- He was a nervous wreck.

It's not like he
can't play the songs.

He played 'em on tour.

Play 'em at rehearsal.

- I was kind of thrown
in the fire on that

and I basically had
an anxiety attack,

panic attack at the studio

so I just asked Chuck, hey dude,

to save time and money
can you do the bass

and at the time there
was no problem at all.

Nothing was even
said about it really.

Chuck's like yeah dude.

I did the bass on
Scream Bloody Gore.

It's no problem.

- I was living in the
dorms at the time,

University of Iowa,
and my roommate

and my dorm partners,
the other guys

who lived in the
hall, pretty used

to the metal that I
would play fairly loudly

at the time throughout the day

and I remember getting Leprosy

and playing it full blast

and just it made people aghast.

What is this music?

It just was so obscene to ears

that had never heard
anything like it.

- What really kind of hit in 88

is the grindcore movement.

Like Napalm Death released
their second record,

Carcass releases
their first record.

Earache continues to grow
and crank out records.

- All that stuff was
starting to bubble

in the underground.

So Leprosy came in and seemed
to have a few more peers

in its weird little
extreme world.

Productions were
getting slicker.

Slayer had South of Heaven.

Metallica came out
with Injustice For All.

Voivod were maturing.

First Sanctuary album.

Fates Warning No Exit came out.

That was a pretty big
album at the time.

They're very dry.

They're very sort
of clean albums.

Leprosy was still just
total ferocity and brutality

and dirt but yet it was
being conveyed really well,

the recording was really great.

- When he was writing
he had hooks in mind.

Even as early back as Pull
the Plug or Born Dead.

Remember the vocals,
you remember the riff

but you remember the hook.

There were choruses
in those songs

that people came back to
and at the end of the day

in spite of all the
early brutality,

in spite of all the
later progressiveness

I think at its core he just
wanted to write good songs.

- It was just super heavy but
also technical but catchy.

It was memorable and I
think that's what Chuck

took from all of the
bands that he admired

is lot of these bands that
he really looked up to

and loved to listen to, they
just wrote really good songs

and really catchy songs and you

can be the heaviest
band in the world

but you can still write a hook

and write a catchy song.

- 'Cause we didn't have a
booking agent at the time.

Scott, who was a
good friend of ours

that actually
worked at the label

and he's like hey, there's
a tour if you want it.

It's you guys and Dark Angel.

- So two of the five acts
that were in the video

would tour together
and it sounded

like a great idea on paper.

- Combat, our record label,
they mentioned to Death,

to Chuck or somebody,
that it's equal billing

meaning that in the
ads, on the posters,

on the gig fliers, you're
gonna have Dark Angel

and you're gonna have
Death right next to it.

Equal billing.

That does not mean
co-headlining.

We started butting
heads over it.

The wording was
just simply that Death

would be billed at
the same percentage

of space or whatever.

Clearly Dark Angel
was more well known

than Death and had an album
out more than Death did.

It was implied that Dark Angel
really was the headliner.

- You know, to me
I'm like whatever.

We're on tour
promoting our album.

Sure enough, somewhere
around Milwaukee

or Utah or somewhere,
that was it.

- I just remember an
incident over drum risers

and they wanted Bill
to set up in front

of the riser and Gene
to set up on the riser

and everyone was
rolling their eyes.

- His demands were starting
to get rather cockamamie.

When Chuck, probably
for the 10th time,

said we're leaving the tour,

this time our tour
manager said go ahead.

If you don't wanna be here
we don't wanna keep you here.

So they turned around
from wherever they were,

Buttville, Montana,
whatever, and went home.

- Again, first time in Europe

which seemed like we all
wanted to go to Europe so bad

and we got there,
just seemed like

it was just an
alien world to us.

Equipment was in one van.

We were in another
van traveling.

- I think the van was driven
by the promoter's wife

and he would just
get on the phone

and be like I'm gonna die.

- We got hotels every
night which whatever,

we were sleeping,
there was no problem

but after about halfway
through that tour,

again, Chuck's like
I've had enough of this

so we quit the
tour and came home.

- Yeah, that was
kind of the pattern

was when I was in
Milwaukee trying

to run things for
Death in my office

a lot of the time I
felt like I needed

to physically be there.

- They would rehearse
in Chuck's mom's garage

in Altamont Springs
and that was three

and a half hour drive.

We would load into my
Wagoneer and go to his house,

watch the band rehearse.

Right until then,
before Rick was released

from the band we
actually started working

on one of the songs that
was on Spiritual Healing,

I think it may have been
the song Spiritual Healing.

- Legion of Doom, which
was one of our first songs,

other than we had a
song called Mantas,

Legion of Doom riff was
on Spiritual Healing.

- I was on the road
coming from New York

heading back to Milwaukee

but I didn't go the
normal way that I would

which was south
of the great lakes

and straight across
on the interstate,

I actually went through Toronto

because I wanted to go
to the Relativity office

and it was in Toronto
that I was at a payphone

and talked to Chuck and Chuck

said I've been thinking about it

and I wanna get rid of Rick
and so I phoned Rick right away

from that same phone.

- Eric had given me a call.

I was in New Jersey at the time.

Chuck called me
first and asked me

if I had my guitar and
I lied and I said yes

but I didn't because I knew
why he was asking me that.

I'm out, hanging out, I'm not
practicing, this and that.

- Rick was very gentlemanly.

It was almost as if he knew
the call was gonna come.

Now I don't know if
he sensed that Chuck

was going in a new direction.

- I assumed that's
why I was let go

'cause I know he was looking
to broaden his horizons

and it was his
thing so I have no,

I'm not gonna fight the guy.

It's not gonna help me stay
in the band any better.

- For Chuck, I think his
vision was always evolving

and part of the problem
was that the people

that he needed to
execute it at one point

in the band aren't
the same people

that he needs to
execute that vision

at another point in the band.

- And so we had
this tour of Mexico

that we had to do and we were

without a second guitar player.

- So we had been going up there

so there was this
kind of relationship

and he knew we had
a certain ability

on our instruments.

He could see that
we were very serious

about practicing our
instruments and getting better

and so Paul was the first call

when they were having problems.

- I met Paul and he
had to learn the songs

and all of that.

I sat next to him on the plane

going to Mexico City
and the entire time

I was trying to convince
him to join Death

but he would not do it.

He said no.

He said I've got Cynic.

I had to respect that.

I just had to finally give up

and then when we
had the pandemonium

at the tour of kind
of death mania,

I would have thought
that that would

have been enough for anybody
to wanna join the band

and he had a record deal,
he would have just walked in

but he just said no.

We had to go to plan B.

I had met
James at a club in Tampa

so when time came to try to
look for another guitar player

I recommended James.

I knew he was a shredder.

- James has a very
keen sense of melody

in terms of guitar solos.

There really wasn't anybody else

who played like James on death
metal records to that point.

He just had like this great feel

for how a solo should be.

- And it really
worked for where Death

was going with the new material.

So this was the right guy to
bring on at the right time.

- The first taste
of Death that I got

would have been 1990, it would
have been Spiritual Healing.

I was 15 then and I was
a fan of heavy metal.

I liked stuff like
Metallica or Iron Maiden

or Def Leppard or whatever
and I had a friend of mine

who was infinitely more
adventurous than I was

and he acquired
Spiritual Healing

and Beneath the Remains and
he basically played them

for me and I recoiled in horror.

I was just like I
don't know how anybody

can be into this.

This is crazy.

You really like this?

And so I retreated to
Injustice for All or whatever.

- And Spiritual Healing was
just a little bit less heralded

because it was the third one.

It wasn't anything new anymore

yet he was still taking
it into new areas.

It was just as
powerful, I think,

as the first two
albums lyrically

because it was horror
but it was real horror.

It was stuff that was
actually happening

and these awful things.

- Death is a band that I
can put my personal outlook

on certain things in life into

and I think it means a lot more

when you're singing about
something other people

can relate to.

That's why you don't hear Death

singing about demons flying down

and plucking nuns
from the Earth.

That's idiotic.

That's putting a
limit on people's...

- So I think Pull the Plug
might have been the gateway

to what happened on
Spiritual Healing

because Pull the
Plug you can look at

as maybe him wondering
about assisted suicide

or being kept alive artificially

and that obviously has
real life connotations.

- James and Chuck
started clashing a bit.

I think it was just
egos a little bit.

James is a good friend of mine

but he was a bit
quirky and at times

it might rub people raw.

It had been building up
between him and Chuck

that whole tour.

Chuck just snapped
and said that's it.

You're out of the band.

Unfortunately James rode home

with one of the opening
bands that was stationed,

they stayed with
us the whole time.

We didn't fly home,
we stayed on the tour.

We came home for a couple months

and we actually started
writing songs for Human

and we were to go Europe.

Walt was our sound man.

We'd been doing it for
years, he'd run sound for us.

Call him up, said hey.

We're fixing to do a tour.

We need a lead guitar player.

Are you interested?

He said yes so Walt
drove from Texas,

he stopped by Chuck's house.

Mercyful Fate was blasting
through the stereo.

Someone was vacuuming.

Walt's knocking on the
door, no one's answering.

He sees someone peek
out of the blinds

then the music turns off

but no one would
answer the door.

So he calls me, hey,
what's up with Chuck?

He won't open the door.

I said come to my house.

There's a bunch
of crap going on.

- He really dreaded
getting on the plane

and going to Europe
and he was also

going through a
period of fatigue

with keeping a
personal life going.

His pets, his family,
his girlfriend

and at that point in time
we were in a litigation

with each other.

- He never said anything to
us about what was going on.

It seemed like
everything was alright

but the thing with
Chuck is, was,

if he turns his
back on something,

over time it will go away.

A couple tours had been
canceled in the past.

The same thing.

Cancel the tour, lay
low for a couple months

and then everything smooths out.

But we had signed
contracts and we

had all this stuff
laid out already.

Merch was already made.

Techs were already
hired from creator,

there's a lot on the line.

So I called the booking agent,

the booking agent
called Chuck's mom,

she was Chuck's
power of attorney

and basically what we worked out

stated that Chuck
wasn't going to Europe

for the tour, he didn't
want any part of it.

He wasn't gonna be
held responsible for it

so me, Bill and Walt
drove to Orlando

and Chuck had signed the paper,

we signed the paper,
everyone got a copy

and that was that.

- And so they left
and they got Louis

and they got Walter
and then I got the call

from my lawyer.

You're never gonna guess
who just called me.

- Look, they were young

and I think that
everybody had their points

and everybody had
their feelings.

At first Chuck
was angry about it

but I think as the days wore on

I think that he
was more thoughtful

and pensive about it and then

it turned into,
instead of anger,

more of a sadness about it.

- You know, Death touring
and I'm in Florida.

It's just really
incredible concept

and it depressed
me at certain times

and I tried to get
over there at one point

and it's just not a
very good situation.

There's a lot bad things
going on out there

as far as feelings
towards me in general

and so I didn't make it
out there unfortunately.

I wanted to but never did.

- About three or four
weeks into the tour

Chuck called the
booking agent, TCI,

that was in New
York, represented us

and told him his head was
a little more clear now

and he felt like he
could go on tour.

He wanted to be
part of the tour.

Mitch from TCI told him dude,

you can not go, no.

Yeah.

He couldn't understand that.

That's my band.

He's like well contractually,
through the label,

there are two thirds of the
band over there right now.

I mean that's just the way it is

and Creator don't
want you over there

just 'cause of what happened.

- I was with Bill and
Terry for quite a while

and we were definitely more
than just band members,

we were best friends so
that's also another factor

that's really a drag
when you lose members,

sometimes friendship
is involved.

- And we knew at that point

when we did that tour that okay,

we're not in Death anymore.

We're fulfilling this tour,
this contract and all this

as Death but we knew
that when we came home

obviously that was it but
if he had just talked to us

we would have talked to him

and maybe we could try
to work something out.

I wanna just keep moving forward

and then have a record
each time around

where people could say
wow, that's a lot different

in a way from your last
album but still be the same.

You know what I mean?

Have a fresh approach
but at the same time

have it where
someone can put it on

and they can say that's Death

except a lot better.

- Therefore you're not getting
the same Death album twice

and you never did
and he continued

on this kind of path.

That path led to
a lot of fall outs

with musicians he
was working with

and he got a reputation for
being difficult to work with.

I think it was more just
having this solid creative eye,

this vision that
was not gonna waiver

for anybody or
anything and that's

how you get to a
record like Human.

- So when Sadus,
we were actually

sharing a bus with Obituary

and we were both support
bands for Sepultura,

this was November of 1990

and we came through
Florida and Chuck

came to town to the
venue in Orlando early

in the day and invited all
four Sadus guys to the place

and we just went, killed the day

just hanging out watching
watchtower videos on his TV,

made some good food and
just hung out there.

He had told us that some
previous guys had kind of,

they had a falling out
and they went on tour

without him under the name Death

and he was ready
to just start over

with a completely new lineup.

- Well at the moment I'm
working on new material.

Got half the record
down right now.

I got friends of mine
from the band Cynic.

The drummer Sean and
guitar player Paul

are helping me out, rehearsing.

They're gonna help
me out in the studio

so it's really great.

- And then I guess when
he started having problems

with his lineup,
I'm not even really

exactly sure what
the reason was,

he asked Paul if
he thought that I

would be interested
in doing the record

so when A, I got
the call from Chuck

and was like of course and then

it was gonna be like well, is he

gonna want me to, it's
gonna be interesting.

What is he gonna want?

- And so to me that
was exciting news.

I'm a friend of Chuck,
fan of his music.

I'm a fan of Cynic and
I'm picturing this union

and as the tour progresses we
get up to Milwaukee I think

and was part of
this Milwaukee Metal Fest.

- And the headliner
was Sepultura

and then Obituary
was on that tour

and then of course Sadus

and Steve just walked in
and I just said hey hippy.

- Congratulations, you're gonna
be on the next Death record

or something, I'm like what?

So I think I found a
payphone and called Chuck

and he goes oh yeah,
I was gonna ask you.

- He had worked on
some of the Human songs

with Terry, they had a split,

so some of the material was
already written and recorded

like demos of these songs.

So to give these songs
to these jazzy cats

from Miami was
incredible because it

came together in a way
that was totally fresh.

Look at that leap.

- Chuck was advancing to a point

where he needed guys
like Sean Reinert

who and Mahavishnu Orchestra

and all these kind
of fusion bands.

They understood that language.

They were studying that
stuff and they were

well into death metal as well.

- I think what Human
became was because

of the players themselves,

is the style of the playing,

is that Reinert is
all over the place

so no matter what he would have

been presented a song that Bill

had done Bill's way and
then he just said okay,

well this is how I play.

- That was the point
of him bringing a guy

like Sean Reinert who,
Cynic's already way different

than a lot of the,
you know, Obituary,

Deicide, Morbid
Angel, bands that

were really established.

He was looking for a departure

so he was looking for musicians

that would bring
a different angle.

Obviously it comes
in with context

of what Death is
supposed to sound like.

We're not gonna go in there
and play something ridiculous

but as long as it
didn't stray too much

from the heaviness
and the aggressiveness

that Death should be, of
course all the little nuances

on each instrument
were up to us.

- I was so nervous.

I was so nervous, it
was my first real life,

legitimate record
recording session.

I just remember losing
sleep the week before that

and we had been rehearsing this.

We had cut demos.

- We came pretty
prepared for Human.

We had some time.

We used the Cynic
warehouse down in Miami

to work out Chuck's
ideas and even

add our own ideas so
we came pretty prepared

so it was easy going.

- We got in, we got
tones in one day

and I finished that record
in like two and a half days

and we had like
eight days for drums

and we were left with like
six days left with drums

on the schedule
and they were like.

So we wrote Cosmic Sea.

We had worked on Vacant Planets

but we had written that
in the rehearsal room.

We wrote Cosmic
Sea in the studio.

I've always been writing my
material without a bass player

in some way or some form.

So with me and Giorgio,
we were just going for it.

We were just breaking shit down.

Oh, we can do this here,
we can do this here.

- That was easy
with Sean because he

had a completely
different approach to it.

He was playing the
beat but it was almost

like polyrhythmic to
what the riffs were

and so that opens
up this huge gap

between the guitar riff
and the drums for the bass

to just cruise back and
forth between everything,

between the melody
and the rhythm.

- We spent quite a
considerable amount

of time on that stuff
so it was a little bit

of a disappointment
when the mixes came out

and it was kind of buried.

'Cause there was a lot of stuff

that was matched
up with me and him,

you know what I mean.

- I think that had an influence

on other people starting
to play at the time

and it made them wanna stretch

and become Sean
Reinerts on the drums

or be a Stevie Giorgio
and be very fluent

and he brought almost
a jazz fusion element

into the playing that really
kind of fit with metal.

It's got a flow
that I think spoke

to a lot of metal fans.

I think you had an
immediate outgrowth

of a lot of musicians and bands

forming in the wake of Human.

None of the other Death albums

really sparked
that kind of desire

or that ambition to
play in that way.

- Because there were
other death metal records

that I picked up first.

Like Cause of Death by Obituary

is the first death metal record

that I seriously got.

It was pure death metal that
just changed things for me

and then it was a
few months later,

I ended up getting Death, Human.

That was the first Death record

that connected with
me 'cause again,

I'm 16 at the time.

Death metal is just blowing up.

- When I first heard
Human, kind of saw,

like back then it was in a sense

so when I first saw the artwork

in comparison to stuff
like Cannibal Corpse,

Tomb of the Mutilated, it's...

It's just more far
out there and it's one

of the things that
I really loved

about that record
at that time too

'cause you'll have like Morbid
Angel, Blessed Are The Sick

and then there's Human where
it's just really kind of like,

at the time it was different.

- When you brought in
Sean and Paul and Steve

they had so many
different backgrounds

between the three of
them, musical interests

and musical tastes.

It still had that basic
raw aggression in it.

There was just so
more to it I think.

You know what I mean,
so many more textures.

- Something like Human
seems more extreme

to me than Spiritual
Healing or even Leprosy

even though technically
it's less barbaric

and not nearly as heavy

in that old school
traditional sense

but this idea of pushing stuff

and stuff being more...

That's what resonated with me

and that was something
that was like this

is different, this is
something that I'm into

and from there on
I was just like,

I was a full on Death
fan from that moment on.

- It changed a lot of people's
conception of death metal.

It made them understand
that it could be expanded

and played around
with quite a bit

and new influence would
be brought into it

and not watered
down necessarily.

Still very much a
death metal record.

It's just a very, it's
kind of death metal

operating on a higher level.

- Death metal kind of involved

from this weird little
thing in the late 80s

to by around 1991,
1992, this movement

that had multiple
bands that were

selling hundreds of
thousands of records.

There were real media outlets

like even MTV
covering these bands,

like getting real attention.

- So we just, like
everybody else,

thought we have to do a video.

This is important to us now

and we went to
Relativity and we just

said we need a video.

That's what's
happening right now.

- I distinctly
remember being like 16

sitting in my bedroom and
having an old VHS cassette

in my VCR waiting when
the Triple Thrash Threat

would start to hit record

so I could get this
four minute video

of Death somewhere.

You hope maybe they're
gonna play it this week

so you'd sit there
and try to get it

but I know that I certainly

was not the only person
who saw that video.

It really kind of exposed
them to a wider audience.

- The idea of turning
on the television

and seeing yourself
was just so far removed

from our brain, like we
couldn't even imagine

that the band Death
would be on TV

and Headbanger's Ball was
the really only opportunity

by that time for metal to,

this is even before
Beavis and Butthead.

It's just, this was it.

- I knew the director because I

was managing a
band called London

from Los Angeles and
we had done a video

for one of their songs
and this guy Dave Bellino

had been the director
and I liked his work

so I just said would
you do this one

and he just said yeah.

- A one camera
shoot, one camera.

So I played that song
something like 30 times

and of course I have to
at least move most of it.

- Well actually, in a video
situation such as this,

this is how we do it now.

I don't know about.

We just run through the
song about 30 or 40 times,

do individual, we call
'em iso's, isolations.

- I was living in Kansas
when I was growing up

and I saw the video for
Lack of Comprehension

on Headbanger's Ball.

I was just totally blown away
especially by Sean Reinert.

There was a shot where
he's playing like this

and he looks like an octopus

playing this crazy drum pattern.

I was like whoa,
what the heck is that

and for me, being a
drummer, it sounded

like Neil Pert crossed
with Pete Sandoval.

It was just the craziest thing.

Oh my god!

- But what became striking
was the European metal press

writing about the
fact that Chuck

had an inability to
follow through with tours

and that became a problem.

- I think maybe we get
the inconvenient stuff

out of the way first, yeah?

Let's talk about the
European disaster.

So why didn't you
make it to Europe?

What is the reason behind it?

- They knew that he had bailed

towards the end of a tour and so

were thinking this guy
doesn't wanna be out there

and now there's another
tour with Kreator

and rumors were that Chuck

wasn't gonna show and
then when he didn't show,

that was it.

It was very difficult going
back to Europe with Human.

Nobody believed that it
was gonna occur, really.

- And all I can do is
say I'm looking forward

to making it to Europe finally

and I hope people show
up and support the music

and you know, that's about it.

- You know that a lot of people

are fed up with
the band right now.

Lot of Germany, there's a
lot of people pissed off

so you gotta win
'em back somehow.

So will this band make
it to Europe at last?

You sure?

What if not, what if not?

- Come back in another
life as an acorn

and that would suck, seriously.

- And I said to him okay, so
how do you wanna work this

and he said well I would like

to buy everybody
new instruments.

We'll use the equipment
for the North American tour

and then we'll ship it
to Europe and use it.

I'm like what?

Why do you wanna ship it?

Because it's our equipment and I

wanna work with my own stuff

and we'll get transformers
so they can be plugged in

and what am I supposed to say?

I just alright,
it's gonna be crazy

and so because we
had nothing left

I had to do a deal
so that the bus

would be fronted by
the British promoter

who had the British dates so
he would do it at the end.

- And you know, Paul
and I's first tour,

we got the bus, the whole thing.

We've driven vans and RVs
and we were just loving it

and back then, man,
your tours were long.

They were like two
months at a time.

- By then Chuck was
growing really homesick.

It would have been two weeks out

and he really wanted to go home

and then we got sick.

- And we were all sharing a bus

and they were a French
band and they all smoked

and our bus driver smoked

so we were traveling literally

in just a 40 foot fucking
second hand smoke capsule.

- And Reinert collapses.

He gets very, very sick.

Has to be brought
to the hospital.

Then I, being a diabetic
and not paying attention

to my health, I got sick.

- Then Eric had to
go to a hospital

and then that's
when it fell apart.

- So I stayed and the idea
was I would keep in touch

by phone for the venues.

Something happened when
Chuck got to Germany

where he flipped his
lid about the promoter

and something
related to the gigs

and by then, of course,
he was at wits end

because he did not wanna be

and the next thing
I know I'm fired

for not being by his
side and he's quit

and the tour is over.

I remember threatening Chuck

with lawsuits and
it was definitely,

it was just a weird
situation because we

were totally caught in
the middle of that thing,

you know what I mean?

- And because the
bus was put up,

the money for that was put
up by the British promoter

who hadn't had his shows yet,

they were at the
end of the tour,

he flipped out because
he lost all this money

so he put a lien on the gear.

- Our gear got
taken so my drums,

Paul's guitar amps and Mike
and all that shit

were held hostage and
we were now signed

and supposed to write
and record a record

and it took us like nine
months to get our gear back.

- And he gathered
the guys together

and somehow they made
it back to London

for the flights back home

because of course the
flights were from London

two months later so they
had to negotiate their way

to get back on their plane.

- Then it was Chuck saying Eric

and Eric saying Chuck
and the bus company

saying the entity
Death then that's

where everybody, it kind of
turned into Lord of the Flies.

You know what I mean, everybody

just didn't know who to trust

and it turned into this
whole weird situation.

- Well we cut it off two
weeks early actually.

We did six weeks of touring

and then the financial
part of things

completely fell
apart due to people

mismanaging our funds,
things not being paid,

a lot of things, it was
a nightmare financially.

Tour wise it was great.

The audiences were great.

People really, they
accepted things

and it was fantastic
on that level

but financially
it was a disaster

and you can not
tour without funds.

We do not make millions.

This is not a big, big,
big money making thing.

- Any notion of us
sitting at a table

and having a discussion
before the tour

about what we need to do
if you want all your gear

sent to Europe and not,
we don't just rent stuff,

all of that went down
the drain and someone

had to be blamed and so he just,

it was very convenient
to blame the manager.

- I never had any resolution
with Chuck unfortunately

and I never really had
a big fallout with Chuck

interestingly enough.

I never got the phone call.

I got a phone call
from Steve DiGiorgio

saying hey dude, we're
in the studio right now

and Gene's playing drums.

The only thing I'm upset about

is just not the communication.

Hearing it from
somebody, from somebody

when they're in the
studio, just like really?

Just call me, dude.

I understand.

You have a timeline,
you're a professional.

This is how you're living.

I'm not gonna be angry.

I'll be disappointed but anyway,

that's a whole other
part of that thing.

Went on to do their band

which they still had
together at the time

when they're helping me out

and so they're doing
their thing now

and that and then I needed

to start looking for new people

and luckily that
wasn't any problem.

I lucked out and
got a hold of Gene

formerly of Dark Angel
and called him up

and he's into jamming out.

- That was rather strange.

I was in the process
of leaving Dark Angel

when I got a call from
one morning

saying hey man, Chuck
is looking for a drummer

and I talked to Chuck earlier

and I brought your name up.

Whatever happened I
called Chuck a day later

or whatever and I said hey man,

called me and
said that you're looking.

He's like yeah,
are you interested

and it was completely
just like we

picked up our last
awesome conversation.

We just kind of picked
it up from there

and everything was great
and within a couple

of weeks or a month
I was in Florida

and we were rehearsing in
his mom's garage at that time

and Scott came up from Tampa

and he bought Chuck
a little four track.

Just like hey, you're not gonna

record your demos on a
ghetto blaster again.

Taught us how to work it.

And then to top
it off I got Steve back

jamming again.

He's taking time
from Sadus right now

who are still
together hanging out

and so it's been fantastic

and we got Andy LaRocque
from King Diamond

to come down and
do some lead work.

- It was just Andy LaRocque
from King Diamond coming in.

This is the man and Chuck
had picked the songs

he wanted Andy's
solos on but instead

of sending him the whole song

he just recorded
the little segments

where the solos go.

So Andy said he
received this tape,

it was just these
little blurbs of music

and he was kinda, it
wasn't really locked in.

He was out of context.

He didn't have the
vibe of the song.

He didn't know the move.

He just had these little parts.

Chuck was like
here's where you play

and Andy's like
I'm not feeling it.

He had showed up and
said yeah, I listened

to the tape but I didn't
really listen to it.

I didn't sit down
and analyze it.

I didn't really
prepare something

and Scott was like
oh no, here we go.

This guy comes all
the way in from Sweden

and he's just, and
he was only scheduled

for a couple days really.

He's like how are we
gonna get this done?

This is brutal.

We're gonna have to
start from square one.

Andy just looked
over at me and Chuck

and shrugged and said
don't worry about it, guys.

It'll be okay.

Just push record,
we'll see what happens.

This guy takes a big
sigh, alright, here we go.

Hits record, boom.

Andy lets something rip.

Me and Chuck are just
hair standing up,

goose bumping up watching
this guy in action.

We get to the end of
it and Andy's like,

kind of laugh like oh well,
I'm just getting warmed up.

Give me another run through.

Let me do something
for real and Scott

goes hold on, let me set
you up another track.

I'm keeping that.

I don't know if he
really prepared at home

and just kind of played it off

or if that's just what
comes out of that guy

but whatever it
was, it was awesome

'cause he was
knocking his solos out

and not only just playing
a cool melodic solo passage

with very, very few takes

but as soon as he
would finish a take

and we all got the
nod around the room

like that's it, that's it,
he would say roll it back

to the top and give
me another track

and he would double it.

Note for note,
inflection for inflection

and was just nailing
what he just did

in a harmony
position or something

and it was like holy crap.

- I don't ever try to
control what people play.

I just say come
in and let loose,

let the metal flow and
that's exactly what happened

and it's great to be
able to get people

that you know, that
you're friends with

and that are really
professionals,

strong at what they do and
have their own identity

and that is crucial
in any type of music.

You have to have your own style

whether you play
piano or whatever.

- He had made it clear
during the recordings,

I think he even made
it official one day.

We just went out for lunch.

- It was something
like hey, we've

been offered a two
or three week run

over in Europe and might
you be available for it?

It's a festival thing
that we're headlining.

- We weren't expected
to in the recording

to go out live but
he said you know,

I'd really like to
have you guys there.

Are you willing to do it?

And we just looked at
each other like hell yeah.

Go out and play this material
we just helped you invent.

That would be great.

- Death will always
remain a growing band

'cause I think
there's definitely

too much of a limit being
put on death metal right now

with this big rise
in Satanic stuff

and just brutal lyrics for
the sake of being brutal

rather than putting
some thought into

and trying to
conquer what people

already think of heavy
metal and death metal

or hard rock in general.

I feel like I won't
put a limit on this

and I wanna keep continuing
to grow as a musician

and as a person
in life and to try

to put into the music
what I learn, so to speak.

- I think he made it
clear that the scene,

the death metal scene
in and of itself

was for a lot of people
kind of a limiting box

to be in.

It was always be more
extreme, be more extreme.

Be brutal, be this, do
the sickest stuff ever

and I think he didn't
wanna do that anymore

and I think he realized
that where do you go?

You can't just keep pounding out

those kinds of
lyrics all the time

and if you're not, if
your heart isn't in it

you don't wanna fake
your way through it

so for him, I feel like
it would be pretty natural

for him to react negatively

to the idea that he was
just a death metal guy

and you saw him
do that, obviously

he said it in
interviews at the time

but he would kind of go
against the grain I think

in really I think fun ways

especially with like the
t-shirts that he wore.

That shirt that he wore in a
Headbanger's Ball interview

where he's got the cats,
the little kitties on them.

Like stuff like that
was always like,

nobody else would do that.

Nobody else had the
balls to do that

and it was just
basically, it was fun

but I think it was also
kind of a fuck you.

You don't have to be
this brutal all the time

and what is the point of it

and really, are we all really
this brutal all the time?

Is this really how life is?

- Now on the other
hand, Death went out

and what appears to be like
a pretty high budget video.

- Actually, it's very budgeted.

- Where did you film the video?

- We filmed it actually,
part of it was outside

in Natural Springs in
Florida and the other half

was shot two hours
away in some warehouse

in the middle of tornado land.

- 'Cause looking at the video

it looks like it was in some
rain forest or something.

You went and spent
all the money on it

and it's a nice video.

- Thank you, we're very
happy with how it turned out.

Definitely.

Ew, is this a joke?

Yeah, yeah.

I think this is
supposed to be funny.

Hey, check it out, it's Jeremy.

Yeah, he's still running.

- Who would have
guessed that they

would be cultural pacemakers?

Like if you got
Beavis and Butthead

to comment on your video, you

were getting a lot
of extra eyes on it

in primetime television
because like it or not,

the Headbanger's Ball audience

was still pretty limited
to midnight to two a.m.

on the east coast
on a Saturday night.

Anybody who stayed up was
already indoctrinated.

You were already into this shit

and were waiting for it.

IF you're watching
Beavis and Butthead

and you got hit with 40
seconds of a Death video,

that could hit anybody
at any point in time.

- Was it spawned out
of a love for the music

that was being played?

I don't know but things
everyone apart

no matter how good the music is.

I mean White Zombie, Crowbar.

I mean Crowbar are one
of my favorites bands

apart but I mean it then

becomes a part of the mainstream

when you have such
a popular show

like Beavis and Butthead
featuring Death.

- And the fact that
Chuck's only real job

was in a Del Taco when
he was a teenager.

I think that's classic.

I think saw this
dude in Burger World once.

I'd like two tacos please

and a small order of fries!

- That was pretty good, Beavis.

You suck almost as
much as this dude.

- We heard the stories
of the previous cycles

and I think me and Gene
had kind of committed

to each other to
kind of preempt that

as much as we could.

Like whatever was in our power

just as Chuck's buddy but I
think there were a few times

that some stressful
moment would come up,

I don't know if Chuck
was having family issues

at home or maybe
there was some kind

of bullshit with management.

Whatever the fact, when
he would get that tense

kind of irritated
like almost ready

to do something,
whatever that may be,

me and Gene would step
in with a calm voice

and just assure we're
there, we wanna finish.

We wanna trudge on
and I think sometimes

it pulled Chuck back
in 'cause we were able

to finish all the
dates and everything.

- Individual Thought
Patterns was an angry record.

Angry lyrically
because he was just,

that was how he got
out his aggression

at a very volatile time for him,

at a time when we were at
odds with our partnership.

A lot of the new lyrics

reflect that what comes around
goes around type attitude.

I am set in my ways.

I'm going to continue
doing what I do.

It's what I enjoy and what
I know best how to do.

If I didn't do this I
don't know what I'd do.

Maybe I'd be a cook.

I like cooking.

That's pretty limited.

- He put a lot of meaning.

There was some stuff if
you read between the lines.

It was a way for him
to express himself

and he was honest about stuff

but he was a whole lot
bigger than his music.

- It's obvious he
was a complex guy.

Everybody knows that.

It wasn't like he was
personally attacking people.

It wasn't like that.

- He was wound a little
tighter than most people

so I think sometimes when
those stress issues came up,

he was right on his last coil

and it just got to him
so we would see times

where he would
drift into that mode

but I think a combination
of having maybe guys

that were determined
like me and Gene,

trying to bring an air of
calm to the environment

plus I think Chuck
was maturing too.

We were all getting older.

I think he was able to
control himself too.

It just seemed to go a
little smoother that year.

When Symbolic songs
were being written

I was gonna be in
the lineup for that

and I was called to Florida

to work on the new song
ideas with him and Gene.

- Yeah, I essentially
moved into Chuck's place

for a long time, him,
myself and Steve DiGiorgio.

We had an eight
track recorder now

which was still
not a lot of tracks

but I remember we,
there was no way

we were gonna get
the decent drum sound

to make demos, it just
wasn't gonna happen

so we would work out
the songs, we'd play 'em

and I had my drum
machine with me

but what I did was I just
took my drum machine.

Everything that we'd
play in the afternoon

I'd spend hours at
night replicating

on the drum machine.

Then we'd have a
great sounding demo

where I'm the drum machine.

I'm playing exactly
what I'm playing live.

- And I recorded the
demo version of the song

and then my first
kid was being born

and Chuck was in a really
determined busy mode

and I wasn't able
to commit the time

so I wasn't able
to finish Symbolic.

- I can only speak to the
guy that I knew really well

and I know the guy I worked with

was really fun to be around

and really
artistically creative.

It was our first record together

but we had known each
other for probably seven

or eight years before that

'cause he'd been
working with Scott

so we'd see each
other in hallways,

go out to lunch and hang out.

When he first came to me to
say would you do the record

I said if you
really wanna do this

let's do it right.

Let's leave no stone unturned.

So he was very excited
about doing it.

He had no intrepidations
about doing it.

He just wanted to make
sure that we didn't

just say okay,
that's good enough.

It was always no,
is that good enough?

Yes, that's good enough.

Okay, let's try harder,
let's do it even more

and Chuck really wanting
to make a big step forward

on the record all
at the same time

and he kind of wanted to break
his own mold a little bit.

- There was no hiatus going on.

There just wasn't a
lot of live activity.

I know there was Voodoo
Club and then Voodoo Cult

but I didn't know that
Chuck was like yeah,

I did some project some guy.

, he did produce a lot

of the early Century
Media records

and he was also.

I think that was
his project mostly.

It was kind of this
early super group.

You didn't have a lot of metal
super groups at that time

and that was one
of the first ones

but it didn't have a US release,

I don't believe it did.

You can only get
it on import here

and it just didn't do that well

and I remember listening to it

and thinking that's too bad.

All these great
guys on one record

and it's just not that great.

- When I eventually did end
up getting a call from him

to see if I would be
interested in auditioning

we remembered that day,
remembered that afternoon.

We actually had a mutual friend.

John worked at this
store called Guitars Plus

which was in downtown Orlando

and he just called my
house and left a message.

Bobby, pick up the phone.

Bobby, pick up the phone.

God damn it, Bobby,
why aren't you home?

- So we kind of had that
guitar spot still open

which we were looking
for a permanent player

and we found Bobby Koelble.

He's an excellent guitar player

and he plays really
from his heart and soul

which is very important.

We need to keep things
running smoothly

and we need to have the
right people in the band

and this I feel is a
very good band right now.

It's excellent.

- So I got home and
I heard it, I'm like.

Obviously I called him back.

He's like dude, do you
remember that afternoon

at Dave's place and
I was like yeah man,

I remember that.

He was like yeah, that
was awesome right?

And I was like yeah, cool.

- For Symbolic, Chuck's
riffs were starting

to really explore his
love of 80s power metal.

It's like he went back 10 years

and really started
letting his metal flow.

- And he wanted to
really inject more

of a melodic content
into death metal

which is somewhat of a
dichotomy there, right,

but he really wanted to do it

so if you listen to
Symbolic and listen

for the guitar parts,
there's a giant leap forward

to my year in the melody
content of the guitar parts.

Maybe again
some of that was through

that appreciation for more
power metal structures

and vocals and things like that.

He was able to take
those influences

and translate them
into something

not necessarily more commercial

but something more relatable to.

- I think there's a chunky
sort of heavier direct element

to Symbolic that we hadn't
heard since Spiritual really.

I think Chuck started
to bring in some

of the riffs, bring in
some of the arrangements.

Make it maybe a
little more memorable.

- I think that just
came from his influence

of listening to more
mainstream metal acts

or even hard rock acts.

It's well known that he
was a fan of Queensryche

and all kinds of
different bands.

He wasn't just a
brutal metal guy,

only listen to brutal music.

It was far from it,
you know what I mean?

But he brought some
of those elements

but he did it his own way.

I think the song structure
certainly on Symbolic

had more metal in it and
not so much brutality

although it's still brutal
but in a different way,

you know what I mean?

Almost even the way
he sang the songs,

you could almost, he seemed

to pronounce the
words more clear.

- There's a stealthy melodic
content to his vocals.

He wanted to take
melodies and go.

He wanted to really
drive that direction.

How do you put more
melody into his music?

You can't do it
with the guitars.

He's already really,
really melodic

so the vocals is the next piece

and then I heard him sing
and I'm like oh my god,

you can sing, you're
great at doing this.

You could sing any
kind of metal stuff

and he said yeah,
but I don't like

to sing when I'm playing guitar

so I have to have a singer.

I still wish I could
have recorded Chuck

actually doing the
vocals through it

and had like another
version of the record

but that would never go.

- I think that the
last couple records

in particular, Symbolic and
The Sound of Perseverance

were records that I
think they were lost

to a generation of
early death metal fans

and I think people
only kinda began

to rediscover them
as time went on.

- Because he clearly
he wasn't kind of

doing the usual
death metal thing.

He wasn't sticking
to the stereotype.

He wasn't playing with all the
usual tropes of death metal.

He was always moving
forward and I think

by the time Symbolic
had come out

there really wasn't
that much great

happening in death
metal at the time anyway

so naturally he would wanna
distance himself a little bit

from that and again,
Chuck just wanted Death

to be a really really
super heavy metal band

and that's it,
nothing more or less.

It's just that he was
ensnared by his band's name

and his band's logo and you
can't get away from that.

- It's a pretty brutal
name definitely.

At the time I wanted
something extreme,

something brutal, shocking
to go along with the music

and now I would probably
call it something different

but it's kind of stuck with us.

I think the name Death
only hinders the band

to a certain point
but at the same time

people really dig
it and hopefully

they just take it as a name

describing the sound
that we started with.

- If you had a Jeff
Tate type vocalist,

a vocalist that would
grasp the invisible orange,

Chuck, that was Chuck's
action right there.

He would complain
constantly about like,

I wish I didn't have
to sing on this music.

I wish I had a real
singer doing this

because then I'd
be really happy.

- But it wouldn't be Death.

Roadrunner would flip, right,

if suddenly Chuck sang
and Chuck could sing.

They would've
flipped because they

were expecting Death and the
fans were expecting Death

so what the heck is
Chuck supposed to do?

So in his mind he invented
Control Denied at that point.

- I was gonna be more
of a melodic project

with him just playing guitar
with a different singer

and he was just kinda like dude,

I don't wanna deal
with this anymore.

- He just wanted to
do something bigger.

He felt like the
death metal thing

had kinda been done
really, really well

by him and other guys up to that

and he wanted to say
let's do the next thing.

Let's go farther.

- I don't know if that's
something a lot of people realize

but yeah, Death was
actually over as a band

after the Symbolic tours.

At that point in time,
Chuck's relationship

with Roadrunner had
pretty much gone south.

- People were getting boxed in.

It became like really,
really a stiff genre

which is exactly backwards
from the way it got invented.

The original death metal
stuff was let's be outrageous,

do new stuff, be
totally different

and then a few years
later, be totally different

as long as it's exactly this
and just one little thing.

Don't go outside of that.

You don't say that
to Chuck Schuldiner.

Don't do a thing different

would not work too
well with Chuck.

- We were in Europe for
about probably maybe five

or six weeks or so,
maybe four weeks,

and Symbolic was just
coming out at that time

I remember after or
during, after one show,

we got the latest
whatever huge magazine

in Europe it was, the back cover

was a Symbolic ad and
it had four other albums

from four different
death metal bands

and this is when Chuck
was really trying

to get away from that
tag, just flat out.

It's what he was trying to do.

He didn't wanna be
called death metal

and he called the
record label screaming,

raging at 'em, I told
you not to do this,

I told you not to
do this, fuck you,

I would rather break up my band

than work for you anymore.

Then a few days later
I had done something

to piss him off and I had really

never done anything
to piss him off before

but he got pissed
at this and then

the last 10 days of the tour

were just absolute misery.

- We were touring with the
English band Benediction

and we had a night
off from the tour

but Benediction had
a gig that night.

It was somewhere in Germany

and so we ended up
going to the gig

and we just parked outside

but we didn't do the gig,
Benediction did the gig.

So anyway, Benediction
was like oh,

you gotta come up
and play a song.

You gotta come up
and play a song.

It's like alright,
well whatever.

We'll see what happens.

Anyway, Chuck stayed on the bus.

Bryan, bass player
Bryan, Gene and I

ended up going inside and
checking out the Benediction gig

and there were like five people
in there in the audience.

There was nobody there.

There was like
literally five fans

standing in front of the stage

and then other beside from that

it was just staff of the place.

So we're just kicking back
having a couple of beers,

watching the show
and all of a sudden

Benediction's like we're
gonna have some musicians

in Death come up
and play a song.

Me and Brian are
just kind of looking

at each other like okay,
what's gonna happen?

And Gene started
getting up on stage.

It's like okay,
I guess we're on.

So we went up and
we got up there,

we're standing around, we
didn't know what to play.

We're just kind
of standing there

looking at each other.

What are we gonna do,
what are we gonna do?

Well come on,
Gene's like come on,

let's play something.

What are we gonna do?

Okay, Chuck's
nowhere to be found.

Let's play Zombie
Ritual in front

of these five German fans

and our sound guy Paul happened

to be hanging out there
and who's gonna sing it?

I don't know, who's
gonna sing it?

Paul, can you sing Zombie Ritual

and Paul's kind of like
well, okay I guess.

So he got up there,
grabbed the mic

and we plowed
through Zombie Ritual

and Paul was up
there singing it,

just kind of having fun with it.

Anyway, we did it
and that was that.

We all thought it was harmless.

Well Chuck found out about it

and he wasn't very
happy about it.

The next day he kind
of sat us all down.

He's like you know what,
that was really not cool

and disrespectful and basically,

you shouldn't have done that.

Very strongly worded

and no one else
really said anything

so I just for whatever reason,

I decided to speak
up, I'm like Chuck,

we really didn't
mean anything by it.

It really wasn't
that big of a deal.

There was no one in the club.

And he's like you
know what, man?

You're conjuring a dick.

I'll never forget that phrase.

It echoes in my head all
the time ever since then.

You're conjuring a dick.

I set you up, I take
care of you guys

and you go out and you
disrespect me and my music.

You're conjuring a dick.

- That last 10 days were
just, they weren't fun.

They were a real
challenge to get through.

We got through it
and that's the thing.

When Chuck broke up the band,

when he said this is it,
we're done after this

I was like now I
don't have to quit

'cause I was quitting
after Symbolic

because we had started working

on what was gonna become
The Sound of Perseverance

and I wasn't super
satisfied myself

with the direction
things were going.

I was dreading it
because I was like man,

I'm really gonna let him down.

He's probably happy to have
a relatively solid lineup

together and
probably thinks this

is gonna go on for a long time

and he told me something like

they had prepared all
these Control Denied demos.

They had the lineup,
they had the logo.

It was a full band.

They were ready to move
on to the next step.

That was to get a budget
from a record company,

get signed and do
it the real way.

- The labels didn't wanna gamble

with Control Denied.

They didn't wanna gamble
with him changing the name,

changing the plan because Death

was an established thing

and they wanted to
invest in something

that they knew was more solid

and they had a better idea
of what he was gonna do.

- Signs was Nuclear Blast.

They're the savior.

They're gonna be so fantastic.

They're my new label.

But they said we'll do
a Control Denied record

but we want one
more Death record.

- In other words, Bite
the Pain, Spirit Crusher,

Story To Tell, Voice of the Soul

and a Moment of
Clarity, all five

were originally
Control Denied songs.

We had recorded those
as demo versions.

Chuck had put some clean vocals

on a couple of those and we

were auditioning different
singers with those.

- When I got to
Metal Maniacs in 97

as a fan of Chuck and Death,

I had nothing to do with him

and then suddenly Borivoj
Krgin, he now runs Blabbermouth,

he was the news columnist
for Maniacs at the time.

He wrote something
about Control Denied

that Chuck didn't like.

It sort of intimated
that Control Denied

was being put on ice
because he couldn't

find a record deal and
he was reviving Death

and he even intimated that Death

was gonna be using some of
these Control Denied riffs

and Borivoj and
Chuck's relationship

up to that point had been a
little bit strained already

so Chuck took that
very personally,

though Borivoj was slagging him

or making, kind of cutting
him down a little bit

and I got the heat on that

because I printed
what Borivoj said

without checking with Chuck

and Chuck came to me directly,

I think I got a call
one day, it was Chuck,

before caller ID or whatever

and we talked and by the
end of the conversation

he understood that I'm
totally on his side,

I'm a total fan and
that I don't think,

I tried to tell him that I don't

think Borivoj wrote
anything all that negative.

He was just reporting.

- But since those
songs were complete

and it was a last minute deal

because they wanted to
push for that album,

for another Death album,

they wanted us to go do
that Dynamo festival,

headline with Pantera.

- And when I heard
that I was like,

it can't even be real
because the Dynamo festival

is massive and Dynamo
is the third live show

I'd ever played with the band

and it's in front of
about 40000 people.

- So we didn't even really
get much opportunity

to really even rehearse
for that whole first leg

of that tour.

The lineup started
getting a lot tighter

near the end of
it, around the time

where it got to
Chile and the shows

were getting a lot better

because we were a lot
tighter as a group.

- It wasn't too long after
we finished the American tour

for Sound of
Perseverance that we

started working on recording
the Control Denied album

and I helped Chuck
move from his house

in Orlando out to his farmhouse,

we're at his home studio

and we're moving some heavy
cabinets and things like that

and I kind of remember
a little bit after that,

he had some soreness and...

- I thought he was stressed out.

We talked about
it a lot and both

of us thought that the
issues he was having,

the tension he was
feeling in his neck

and stuff was
because of tension.

- He told me early on.

He told me when he had
like a pain in his neck

or something, he said that,

he had asked me if I was
familiar with acupuncture

and I was like no,
I have no idea.

He said he was going
to a chiropractor

to fix a pain in his neck,
it wasn't doing anything.

- I can't remember
what they did for him.

They probably made
some adjustments

which didn't help him obviously.

Then he went to an acupuncturist

and from what I understand
she put one needle

in the back of his
neck and went like this

and said go get an MRI.

- It was on his birthday

and the doctor told him
he had a brain tumor.

Yeah, I remember that day
like it was yesterday.

- And he picked me up
early from high school

which was strange and
it was my grandfather

and Chuck in Chuck's van,
my grandfather was driving

and Chuck said I got some
bad news, I'm really sick.

- And I remember kind
of being horrified

because I had just not
even given a thought

to something like that.

- You don't even
know how to respond

or react when your best friend

tells you that they have cancer.

It was just devastating.

- They went into the studio to
do the Control Denied record

and apparently it was
kind of a bad session

and he called me and he
made a cassette copy,

mailed it to me and said
will you play on the album?

So I called him, I
said sure, I'd love to

'cause I keep
getting called back

and when he sent me that tape,

I told him I'd like to
listen to it for a few weeks

and absorb it and
really get into it

and he's like no, I need
you to come tomorrow.

This is already overdue
so we don't have any time

to spare, you need to get here

and just get it recorded.

And so I said okay,
well I'll come straight

to your house, we'll
just go over everything.

Just push play, sit
there and jam with it

and I'll just learn it.

I'll just crash course,
learn as fast as I can.

He says okay.

The next day comes
and he calls me

and he says you all set to come?

I said yep.

He goes well I tell you what,

I'm not gonna be here
when you get here.

I need to go to New
York for radiation.

Whoa, okay, that's
heavy in two places.

Obviously the first
one being wow,

you're going to get
radiation but then

I said what am I gonna do?

I heard this stuff
like a day ago

and I need to record
all eight songs.

So he says well Shannon
will help you out.

Okay.

- It happened fairly fast.

By the time we
finished the album

he was already in New York

when Steve flew here
and I was showing Steve

all of the songs and
we went over there

to do his bass tracks.

At that point Chuck was
actually in New York at NYU

being operated on.

- Me and Jim, we would
take a couple minute break

from playing, we'd sit
there and we'd just

go this is unbelievable.

We had his number where
he was staying up there

and we talked to him
several times every day

and played him parts of songs

for him to kind of approve

and make sure we were
on the right track

and so we called
him on the phone

and held the phone up
to the studio monitor

and just let the song roll

and me and Jim were
looking at each other

like kind of remembering
how we finished up laughing,

like it's cool, remember,
ah, remember that?

And so after the song's
over go to the phone

and Florida to New York,
a little bit long distance

so I hear this.

I thought we lost the connection

'cause I had held the
phone for the whole four

or five minutes,
however long the song is

so maybe at some
point we got cut off.

Chuck, are you there?

And I here this kind
of choked up voice.

Yeah, I'm here.

What happened?

Nothing, I was
listening to the song.

I said oh, you
didn't say nothing.

I thought you left off.

He goes, then I could hear him.

It sounded kind of like he
was sobbing a little bit.

What's the matter, man?

He goes that was the
best get well card

I've ever heard in my life.

And I just, right then give
the phone right to Jim.

I was like I'm out.

I had to just compose myself

'cause he was up there.

He's used to being
part of the session

and I told him,
I said first time

in my life I've
ever been in Florida

without him there,
the first time,

and not only was
I just in Florida

but I was working on his record

and he wasn't there
like he always is

and to hear him react
like that, I was just...

- I just felt terrible.

This is my friend
that's in trouble,

really bad trouble,
and it's getting worse

and I really would
like him to know,

I'm sorry.

I would really like him to know

how important he was
to me as a human being.

- It was weird because
he just always assured us

that even though something scary

and serious was going on,

he always kind of
had this assurance

that it was okay, he was
gonna go get it treated.

- And he actually did start
getting better after that

and that's when
we started working

on this follow,
the second record.

- So much time had gone by
from the recording of it,

the patching of the
bass tracks and all that

that he was busy
writing and he was ready

for the next album right away

'cause I had recorded
bass in the middle of 99

and by the next year, he
had all kinds of new stuff

and he was working on it
extensively with Richard Christie.

- I remember
rehearsing and Chuck

writing the second
Control Denied album

and I just remember
us being so excited

for this second album and Chuck

was so proud of the music.

We were so well-rehearsed.

I went in there and we
did the drums in one day

and I remember Jim
Morris too looking at me

and looking at Chuck and he
was like what's going on here?

He was like, it was such
crazy, unique, innovative music

that Jim Morris just didn't
know what to think of it.

- And all of a sudden
it hit him again.

With this album, When
Man and Machine Collide,

he had taken home
those for that reason.

He had taken home
Richard's drum tracks

and put 'em on a
little eight track

digital hard disc
recorder so that he

could work on it at
home and he wouldn't

be sitting there at Morris Sound

where time is money.

Of course that's
what led to us having

to extract all this
stuff from that machine

and all the other issues
we've run into since

but that was the primary reason

is because he knew that
he didn't have the stamina

or the endurance to play
through the whole thing

and do it in a timely fashion

so he just wanted
to bring it home.

- There's a possibility
of finishing an album.

The amount of work that
would have to go into it

is tremendous to do it right

which is what Chuck
told me had to be done.

My last conversation
on the phone with Chuck

was I want you to
finish the record

if you can but don't fuck it up.

If you can't do a
good job don't do it.

- So at that point,
I don't think we ever

really came close.

There was a brief
moment where we

had considered going to Italy

and opening up for Metallica

at the God's of Rock Festival

which would have
been the biggest show

that Death had
ever done and Chuck

literally waited until
about the last week

before canceling to
see if he could do it

'cause he was having
problems with his left arm.

His whole left side was just,

he had no control
of his motor skills

so he couldn't
really count on it

and we rehearsed quite a
bit to strengthen him up

but he would have good days
and he would have bad days.

- Chuck's a fighter and Chuck

had a really positive
attitude about it.

I can't imagine how scary it is

to go through
something like that

and Chuck has the
greatest family

that anybody could ever ask for.

They were always there with him

and encouraging him and
they were like you know,

we're gonna do
whatever it takes.

- I was constantly on the phone

trying to find new doctors
and we would travel

and when one doctor
would say no,

we don't have anything,
that just meant to me

that they didn't
know what to do.

There must be somebody.

In my mind there
had to be somebody

that knew what to do and Chuck

told me I feel like I'm standing

at the edge of a cliff
with one foot off

and when he said
that to me I knew

we just have to try everything.

- I ended up calling him.

He was already like really sick

and so I called him up on
the phone just to say hi

and he sounded
terrible on the phone.

It was really kind
of heart breaking

but we talked for
a couple minutes

and that was about
all he could do

'cause he was really
pretty zonked out

with everything
that was going on

and I remember telling
him for some reason

about the new Voivod album.

I'm like dude, you've
gotta hear the new Voivod.

It's insane.

He's like oh yeah, cool.

Yeah.

We did have this thing
from Make Them Die Slowly

where one of the cannibals goes

and the other one goes

and so we got one of those in

in that last conversation.

It was kind of a weak

but he still did it.

I was like alright,
that's cool man.

And that was the
last time we talked.

- And they did one
more hail Mary pass

and that was there was a drug

and it was still at
an experimental stage

and they really didn't know
about dosing at the time

and they agreed to take the risk

as a last ditch effort
to save his life.

- So when we got back to Florida

he could barely walk and we
went right into a hospital

and then I showed him the
pretty little pamphlet

they gave me with the
pretty flower on it

and they were like
oh god, it's a child.

- Nobody could blame anybody
because at that point

working with this
drug was really

the only possibility,
as remote as it was

and I think that when they
knew that it was over,

I think they decided
to take him home

and they took him back to Citrus

and he passed away
within an hour

of being at home.

- That band was just,
as far as I'm concerned,

was responsible for expanding,

breaking out of that closed box

'cause death metal
had to be, again,

had to be brutal all the time

and I think Chuck is largely
responsible for that,

of having the balls to
want to do something

that he wanted to
do and not conform

to whatever everybody
else thought he should be,

you know what I mean?

And that is a testament
to a true musician

and somebody who
follows his own path

and not caters to what
he thinks other people

should think Death should be

or you should be like this
or you should play, you know.

- And somewhere there's
a lesson in there

for all of us.

Keep wanting to do better

because you never
know when you're not

gonna have a chance to do
anything else ever again.

He is a great example of growth.

If you wanna know the guy,
listen to the guitar playing

'cause that's him talking
to you right there.

That was the guy.

To me, the best musicians
I've worked with

are the ones where you
hear them in the notes.

You hear them and I think that's

where you get the real
personality of the player.

- Look, if you
like certain styles

of death metal or
if you're partial

to the early brutal
stuff and you don't

really care about
progressive stuff, fine,

but to say Death wasn't
a death metal band

up until the end is just silly.