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This programme contains scenes of a
sexual nature, some strong language,
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00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,120
and scenes which some viewers may
find disturbing
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00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,760
SYNTH NOTES REVERBERATE
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00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:39,760
LOW NOTES BOOM
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00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,800
ELECTRONIC BEAT INTENSIFIES
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Look what I'm doing -
standing with a knife.
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MAN LAUGHS
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Even like this,
I can keep up my secret reputation
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as evil and vicious.
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Ah! Oh! God bless David Bowie.
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Which one? The LSD, the DMT
or the ketamine?
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The OTO, Cafe OTO, was great.
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It was beautiful.
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We really like doing those.
Your lunch is here.
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Lunch is served.
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Do you mind if I just give
her a little...?
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We moved here in '96.
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Way back in the '60s,
we wrote this poem about,
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"New York is the toilet of Europe.
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"They flush all the people
they don't want into New York."
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And strangely enough,
they flushed me here, too.
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Wow, what a life, Musty.
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What a life.
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One of the most transgressive
art collectives
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that this country's ever produced.
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It was pretty full-on. How do you
actually describe your own music?
27
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,240
To be as difficult as possible.
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No boundaries.
29
00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,440
You were intending to provoke
the establishment, weren't you?
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We've always strived to be honest.
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I'm interested in what human beings
are capable of doing to one another,
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good and bad.
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00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,760
I grew up with Throbbing Gristle.
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Utter inspiration to me
when I was younger and queer.
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The wreckers of civilisation,
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and anything less,
I'll be sorely disappointed.
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All my life I've been drawn
to gardens,
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and I'm a big believer that
everybody should touch the Earth
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once a day.
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00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,840
The garden is a very
spiritual place.
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It's, there's, the plants are not
going to ask you any questions,
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they're just going to make
their statement and be there.
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Maybe we should be more like that.
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Just be rather than try
and change everything.
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Ah, lovely! That powdery blue,
that lilac-y blue.
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00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,440
If you was at the beginning
of the world,
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and you were creating the world,
could you have thought of that?
48
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Would you have ever thought
a fish, that live in water?
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What great thing, what a great idea.
50
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,080
Whose idea was that?
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00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,680
They can't live in our world
and we can't live in theirs. Wow!
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I came originally from Hull.
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I grew up with Cosey.
We were neighbours.
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We were friends from the age
of dot.
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She's like my sister
rather than a friend.
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We are very close.
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00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,840
In our teens, we grew up and did
things together,
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00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:45,240
and, when she left home, she moved
into a different part of Hull,
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and eventually met up with Genesis,
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00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,360
and they'd started doing
different things under the name
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00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,360
of COUM Transmissions.
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I can't tell you when that actually
started, or when it ended,
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cos I feel it still goes on.
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COUM is transmitting now.
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00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,240
Les once made a point to me
years ago -
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we forget that as we grow,
we're growing away from the ground.
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He said, "When you're young,
you just see everything,
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"and you're on the ground
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"and you can see all this
are the world going on.
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"And as you grow your, your eyes
are moving away from that
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"and focusing on other things."
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And I think it's good to get back
down on the ground
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00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,240
and realise where everything
really comes from.
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00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,080
I grew up on a council estate
in Hull.
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00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,640
I was born in 1951 -
post-war baby.
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00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,040
I wasn't content with
what I was expected to be.
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I mean, especially being I wasn't
middle-lass, I was working-class,
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and you were definitely channelled
into just literally working
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for the rest of your life,
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00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,360
being a wife and working
and supporting your husband.
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00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,680
Even, even a lot of the women
on my estate didn't go to work.
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Some worked in factories,
but not many.
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00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,360
They were stay-at-home mums.
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And, erm, I,
I couldn't see myself doing that.
85
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,000
Maybe the way my dad brought me
up and gave me access to a more male
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00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,840
kind of view of the world, through,
you know, wanting me to be a boy.
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00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:14,120
I think that had a lot
to do with it.
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I remember having a conversation
with my father when I was 14.
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He wanted me to be a gas fitter
for British Gas.
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And I told him
I wanted to be a poet.
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I never really knew what that meant,
but it sounded nice.
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But I knew instinctively,
that I was different,
93
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and that I wasn't like
the other boys.
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I lived on a council estate.
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You were homosexual, you were queer,
you would be beaten up.
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Hull was pretty isolated.
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The Humber Bridge wasn't built.
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00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,320
Back in the 1960s, Hull was
a different sort of place.
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Most people just had to work,
and just tucked into that, you know,
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so a very drab, drab place, Hull.
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And I hate to say that,
but that's how it was.
102
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,440
Obviously, there was beginnings
of pop programmes
103
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,920
which became Top Of The Pops, but
there were all sorts of things
104
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,320
going on before then,
like Ready, Steady, Go.
105
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,240
So you've got an idea of
what was going on in the world
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00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,000
outside of Hull.
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00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,720
And, also, there were a lot of bands
that came to play in Hull.
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So, you'd get the Small Faces and
Walker Brothers,
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00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,120
and then Hendrix, of course,
came in,
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and that was a big sort of epiphany
for me, really,
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was seeing him.
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When I started going to all the
music and folk clubs
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and meeting those kind of people,
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I realised that a different
lifestyle was possible,
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00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,280
and that was where I was heading,
you know?
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00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,760
With a 303 rifle,
I was a first-class sniper.
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00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,520
So, Jen and I first really met
when we were travelling on a bus
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00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,680
to a cadet force day out.
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This is where you dressed
as soldiers and went out
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00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:56,040
and shot at things, you know?
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I'd got a few things in my pockets
that he was interested in.
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00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,680
I'd got my appendix I used to carry
around with me in a jar,
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00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,840
I'd got a dried-up leech, I'd got a
rabbit bone, you know,
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00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:08,520
all those things that boys have.
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00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,240
He was...effete.
126
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,040
He was kind of like the Oscar Wilde
of the school.
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00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,480
Solihull School in those days
was a very repressed place.
128
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,680
You know, we were very much
outsiders.
129
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,520
And, at that point, we did not
have a single friend.
130
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,720
And then there were these four boys
a year below me
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who were also in
the same kind of boat.
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They were getting bullied.
133
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,280
And it was our salvation, really,
cos we then realised
134
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,040
that we were into the weird,
new music that was happening,
135
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,680
and we were into beatnik poetry,
136
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,560
and it was spies that often informed
us of new stuff.
137
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,520
He told me, "There's a band called
The Velvet Underground,"
138
00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,960
and he'd first heard about Sun Ra
and the Mothers Of Invention.
139
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,680
It's hugely impossible to describe,
in the internet days,
140
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,840
when you can just google something,
but, you know,
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00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,280
we'd fall on this stuff
like starving men, really.
142
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,880
We felt like we were a miniature
version of the beats,
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00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,760
that we were protecting each other
and inspiring each other,
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00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,600
and we were working towards doing
something important.
145
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:32,280
We received...these visions,
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00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,600
under the name COUM Transmissions,
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00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,920
in the late summer of 1969.
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We thought that we were
completely alone
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00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,560
and that we'd experimented
with being in a commune in London
150
00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:49,120
and it hadn't worked, and we had no
great idea of direction.
151
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,040
We were just floating free.
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00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,480
We decided to hitchhike
around Britain and,
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00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,920
on the way, to drop in on
my parents in Shrewsbury.
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00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,800
There was this weekend where
they said,
155
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,320
"Would you like to go
for a drive in the countryside?"
156
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,520
So, we were driving around,
157
00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,760
and we closed our eyes
at some point.
158
00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,880
And suddenly there was an
explosion of psychedelic spirals
159
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,280
and colours and voices,
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00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,720
and we suddenly had this experience
that my being
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00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,120
had moved outside the car,
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but we were reduced to the molecules
and the atoms.
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00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,840
So, we were in the hedge,
but moving through it.
164
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,040
And as that realisation
was happening in my conscious mind,
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00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,160
suddenly all this other
information started coming in.
166
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,040
And part of that was this phrase
cosmic organicism
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00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,720
of the universal molecular.
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COUM for short - C-O-U-M.
169
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:07,200
I was at the point where I'd started
smoking dope, taking acid,
170
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,560
left my job because that was
just too straight.
171
00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:14,920
And there were people in the college
that I got to meet who had bands.
172
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,040
And so my whole world shifted
from the council estate to people
173
00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,160
that went to university,
art college, and I spent
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00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,400
all my time with them.
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00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,480
I was also in the throes
of being thrown out of home.
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And I've been thrown out once
and still not learned my lesson.
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00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:37,040
We had received amongst the visions
that we would meet a woman
178
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,280
who would be Cosmosis.
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00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,680
I was at the university
and had gone to an acid test,
180
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:45,920
which I didn't like at all.
181
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,160
I was about to leave.
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00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,880
And as I was coming down the stairs,
I saw this little guy
183
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:55,880
with a graduation gown and the hat
and the purple beard.
184
00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:01,800
And there was this classic flower
child and we kind of stopped
185
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,600
and looked at her.
186
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,000
I didn't quite know if he was real
or not.
187
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,200
And he'd seen me, apparently.
Someone came up to me and said,
188
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,040
"Cosmosis, Genesis wants
to see you."
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00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,120
That was the name he gave me.
190
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,640
Then about a week or two
later, I met up with him.
191
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,560
So we moved all our stuff
into Prince Street.
192
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:32,080
This totally Dickensian,
Georgian terrace.
193
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,880
Two of them were more or less
derelict, knocked into one.
194
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,240
They have 19 rooms.
195
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,320
But the downside was, when it rained
or snowed, it snowed and rained
196
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,200
in the kitchen.
197
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,560
And then shortly after, Spydeee
joined us.
198
00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:50,840
I'd gone hitchhiking
199
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,040
around the country and gone
to various places.
200
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,480
I'd gone to Hull then because
I had to leave home as well.
201
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,560
Eventually, I found Gen and Cosey
just living around the corner
202
00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,320
and moved in with them.
203
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,560
And as far as I'm concerned, that's
where COUM really began.
204
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,440
Hello, good morning and welcome
to Arena. Genesis P-Orridge,
205
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,480
who is fairly well known in Hull
for his walking about with long hair
206
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,960
and a beret, came into the studio
to tell me what was going to happen.
207
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,720
Well, obviously it starts with
COUMA Are Fab and Kinky.
208
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,720
"COUM is the folk music of tomorrow,
because there is no tomorrow.
209
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,440
"COUM urinate down the handrails
of your subconscious."
210
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,360
"Come away, you don't know where
they've been."
211
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,000
"COUM make a nice evening
out for the family."
212
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,040
There was nothing like it in Hull.
213
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,440
Totally nothing like it. We would go
out on the streets, on the main
214
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,320
shopping area, dressed up in really
vibrant colours and do bizarre
215
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,520
little Dada surrealist actions.
216
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,080
They said to me at one point
the people come and say,
217
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,840
"Well, what does it mean?"
It doesn't need to mean anything.
218
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:03,840
It just is.
219
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:11,000
We would bring props out and stand
there and maybe do a sort of recite
220
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:17,640
poetry or do songs and try
and involve the public.
221
00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,720
By the way, Hull was quite
a friendly place.
222
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,840
People were pleased to see,
you know, you brighten their day.
223
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,560
You know, you could almost say every
day was a performance, really.
224
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,480
It grabbed people's attention,
it made people smile.
225
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,240
Some people became angry,
they thought
226
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:37,960
we was absolute lunatics.
227
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,800
Some joined COUM from that and said,
"I really enjoyed the other night.
228
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,800
"It was like something
I'd never seen."
229
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,120
You know, "Next time you're doing
something, can I join in?"
230
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,120
We were interested in the idea that
people who've never been to art
231
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,600
college, people who were the
cast-offs of society, were actually
232
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,000
all potentially geniuses.
233
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:05,720
We considered ourselves as outlaws
and outcasts, really, because anyone
234
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,520
can do art.
You don't need a degree.
235
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,560
Anyone can play an instrument.
236
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:12,880
Anyone can make a noise.
237
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,520
I mean, I had a couple of very
cheap old tape recorders, reel
238
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,840
to reel, and I would mix them
up and I'd slow them down and record
239
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,840
off the other one and I'd use a bit
of Stockhausen and I'd use classical
240
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,680
music and underlay that with...
Record the sound of the beds in the
241
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,520
garden and just overlay it and
overlay it until I had a concoction
242
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,440
of sound which seemed to fill the
room.
243
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,960
Most of the people that we worked
with had nothing to do
244
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,760
with universities or art colleges.
245
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,480
They were just incredibly
eccentric, interesting people.
246
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,400
People inhabited these characters
that they had a particular interest
247
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,960
in and fetish for, even, if you want
to say that, and they were allowed
248
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,240
to go and explore that,
but in a public place.
249
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,480
Was a free thinking way
of doing things.
250
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:10,760
It was new.
251
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,040
It felt right.
252
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,440
It felt as if this is the direction
the whole world should go.
253
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,520
We did a gig in Bradford,
and that was how we met Foxtrot.
254
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,680
I always thought it was more
like a gang or a group, at least,
255
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,880
but a gang, really. In some ways it
was like a criminal gang or a kid's
256
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,000
gang. It was very much a '60s thing,
which I think was very healthy.
257
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,680
Everybody could have a go.
258
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,120
It was at a time when there was some
social mobility.
259
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,600
You know, your father could
have been a docker or something,
260
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:41,960
but you could do something.
261
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,360
I think this was to get
into Czechoslovakia.
262
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,040
I actually said COUM
was my company.
263
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,320
This is one of the patches,
which were embroidered by Cosey.
264
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,840
And the whole Daily News
or whatever it was.
265
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,080
There's Gen sitting in Prince
Street.
266
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,000
That was an extraordinary place.
267
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,680
It was a semi-derelict jam factory.
268
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,360
There were sort of dummies
and strange figures.
269
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,960
It was like a sort of wonderland,
really.
270
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,400
And I know Spydeee
said he was always cold.
271
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,640
The roof was leaking and the kitchen
was just a cobbled floor that used
272
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,960
to get frosted over in winter,
and the toilet in the corner,
273
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,520
which was disgusting.
274
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,280
And we used to have a water carrier
that we'd fill up and take upstairs
275
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,360
to do the cooking on the fire.
276
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,040
It was hard, but for me, I was kind
of living in a way I'd never lived
277
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,080
before, like everybody was.
We all were in that house.
278
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:41,960
It was just, I can't really describe
to people what it was like as an art
279
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,240
practice because I never
looked at it like that.
280
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,520
It was just the way I lived.
281
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,000
It was hand to mouth.
282
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:55,800
A lot of people don't realise
that having no money in your pocket
283
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,960
and no prospect of any money...
Where you going to go?
284
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,880
What are you going to do?
285
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,920
Genesis got the dole.
Cosey had part time jobs
286
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,240
to help them survive.
I had to get odd jobs as well.
287
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,840
You know, I worked at the docks
and I was a petrol pump attendant
288
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,440
and all sorts of in between.
289
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,320
I got quite fed up with not
having enough money to eat properly.
290
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,920
And I went and got a job
at the Humbrol paint factory.
291
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:28,600
So we could have regular
meals and we could afford to buy
292
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,800
certain things for the actions
that we wanted to do.
293
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,720
Cosey was actually on this poster.
294
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,400
This is a bone of contention.
295
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,560
Why was not the only female
member of the group
296
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,040
on the poster, you know?
297
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,360
Well, it was really.
298
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:56,720
I never even cottoned on that I was
the only woman because it's just not
299
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,120
the way I looked at it.
300
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:01,920
I was just part of this creative
community.
301
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,880
But, yeah, I did do a lot
of the housework.
302
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,200
So I think other people looked at me
as a woman and expected me
303
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,400
to do womanly duties.
304
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,280
I had no roof over my head
from being thrown out,
305
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,120
so this was my security,
this home.
306
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,200
Both Cosey and I,
we could have ended up homeless
307
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,480
on the streets, you know?
Absolutely could.
308
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,080
It was very close to that side
of things.
309
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,640
It's bad because I really don't
want to compartmentalise
310
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,200
her as the mother figure,
but she just had the common sense,
311
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,720
actually, is what it was,
the common sense that, you know,
312
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,360
we need to eat. We need to keep a
certain degree of cleanliness.
313
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,400
We need to keep a certain
degree of sanity.
314
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,640
General Idea, who were based
in Toronto, did a magazine called
315
00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:01,880
File, and amongst it in one
of their issues was about six pages
316
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:07,840
that were yellow paper and it was
called the Image Bank Request List.
317
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:13,360
And in it, there were literally
maybe 2,000 artists' names,
318
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,920
and you could give your name
and your mailing address,
319
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,800
and then you could request images
of what you needed for your work.
320
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,280
We started writing to people.
321
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,720
It was like being given a gift,
really.
322
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,200
And sending handmade things.
323
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,760
The whole idea was that you were
avoiding the galleries,
324
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,360
you were avoiding commerciality.
325
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,840
You are giving a gift to another
artist.
326
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,760
And so, word got around and people
would write to you and say,
327
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,600
"We're doing this, how do you fancy
doing some little thing "with us?"
328
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,520
Was a good time,
and it really accelerated
329
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,480
what we were doing in terms
of who we're meeting
330
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,840
and the opportunities that were sort
of presented to us as well.
331
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,360
Yeah, it sort of exploded.
332
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,560
Thank you all.
Is he going to smack me up?
333
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,480
It became too hot, so they moved
out. They made the right choice,
334
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,640
but it wasn't because of that,
they had to get out of Hull.
335
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,440
There was nothing left in Hull,
Hull had gone.
336
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,560
And I kept saying to them, you know,
most of the things we'd like to do,
337
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,280
I'm sure they'll be a more
receptive audience down in London.
338
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:36,160
And we had our Austin,
the big black van, and we piled
339
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,760
what we needed and could fit
into it.
340
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:48,920
ECHOING: You're walking along
that way
341
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,000
ECHOING: You're walking along
that way
342
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,400
because I've got to go now,
343
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:54,560
I own this house.
344
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,560
You know, sometimes I really do
think...
345
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,600
..that, you know... Keep me company.
346
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,640
It was a big, big thing
to move to London.
347
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,800
It was a big move that fragmented
us as a collective.
348
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,000
And then we met different people.
349
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,360
Robin Klassnik was saying
that there was a studio
350
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,640
at Martello St that was up,
351
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,040
and did we want it?
352
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,480
The electricity wasn't working
and the water was turned off
353
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,800
in the one sink and one tap.
354
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,680
But it was home. It was a bit better
than Prince St, but it was much
355
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,360
smaller, it was just one room
instead of 17.
356
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:41,040
I built this box in one corner,
357
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,560
a wooden cave box just big enough
358
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,600
for a mattress that Cosey
had sewn out of canvas.
359
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,400
And then we piled up foraged wood
around it to make it look
360
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,760
like that's where we kept our raw
material for sculptures,
361
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,880
because you weren't allowed
to live there.
362
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,680
And then under the arches
were all the factories, dress
363
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,160
factories, shoe factories, handbag
factories, which were a great source
364
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,960
of art materials for us.
365
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,640
And Hackney was just very working
class, hardcore area. We many times
366
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,560
got chased through the park and,
you know, harassed and stuff.
367
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,280
But it was no different
to Hull really.
368
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,320
REVERBERATING NOTE PLAYS
369
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,120
When we went into the Martello
St studio, Bruce Lacey
370
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:41,920
was the caretaker there and his son,
John Lacey, used to come and work
371
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,400
with him on his theatre productions.
372
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,680
And we got to know John
really well, and he joined COUM
373
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,000
and brought his expertise
on building synthesisers.
374
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,040
Testing, hello. Oh, listen.
375
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:01,480
When I first started working with
COUM, more of the music was either
376
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,720
acoustic or guitars and bass.
377
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,240
But in terms of effects,
units and synthesisers,
378
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,000
COUM weren't using those when I
started working with them.
379
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,600
John was quite a catalyst
in what we did, sound-wise.
380
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,920
I think he was the bridge from
what we did as COUM - chaos -
381
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,200
to then having all this equipment
382
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,080
because he had theatre lights
and everything.
383
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,480
The Oval House was about the COUMing
Of Age, it was called, and that one
384
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,280
in particular was the very innocent
views of sex.
385
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,520
It was about rites of passage.
386
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,280
I actually was in the control booth
doing lighting and sound.
387
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,160
We did use other music, though.
388
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,840
We used John Cale,
some Velvet Underground.
389
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,760
There was me on the swing,
pink swing with a heart hole
390
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,000
cut in the seat of it.
391
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,280
But then I peed right
across as I went along.
392
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,000
Jules Baker loaned
us this wonderful cage.
393
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,280
Used on monsters for Doctor Who
at the time.
394
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,400
And it had tendrils coming
in all over it.
395
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,560
And I was in that as a model
doing my modelling. But trapped
396
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,640
in this threatening environment.
397
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,240
And that was obviously drawn
in from what she was doing
398
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,080
by that point in her actual daily
life, which was photography
399
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,360
for other people.
400
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,720
I found this competition for
Men Only magazine for...for,
401
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,600
you know, nude photographs that,
you know, and if you got accepted,
402
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,000
you'd get a prize and maybe you'd
get some more work from it.
403
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,600
"Shall we enter it?
Would you do it?"
404
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,320
And I said, "Yeah, let's try it."
405
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,560
And that was the opportunity.
406
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,840
So he presented
really the opportunity for me
407
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,840
to start doing that,
must give him credit for that.
408
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,280
And I took the first photographs of
her. We'd done nude stuff before.
409
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:06,440
So you're kind of like open
to being naked in front of people.
410
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,640
And also, for myself, intrigued
by the whole sex market
411
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,040
and exploring my sexuality
in that way, because it's not
412
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,920
a commitment to anybody
and it's an experience.
413
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,560
And it fascinated me, not least
because I started doing collages
414
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,080
using porn magazines.
415
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,920
It would be really nice for me
to be cutting myself out
416
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:36,240
and using myself in collages,
in found material, but genuinely
417
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,240
found. If I enter that market
and become that person
418
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,320
in the magazine that I'm cutting
out, then that's a fantastic,
419
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,520
complete work to me.
420
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,600
I've entered it and brought it right
back to my artwork again,
421
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,080
and it's an artwork from beginning
to end.
422
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,680
We were trying to manipulate
the media in some way.
423
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,760
That was one of the big
ideas in COUM.
424
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,040
You know, either get yourself
mentioned in the papers or lead
425
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,880
them down the garden path in some
way or play with the way the media
426
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,240
would play with you.
427
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,120
It was fascinating because from
the beginnings of those little black
428
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:12,920
and white porn mags and some
colour ones off and on,
429
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,320
this whole thing sort of unfolded
before me about what it is
430
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,240
to be a model for these
sleazy little magazines.
431
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,240
It was a business.
432
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,600
And a big business.
433
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,920
I was in Greece, this is me
in Greece, modelling for Men Only.
434
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,600
I did a lot of modelling
for Laszlo Szabo.
435
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,160
He became a very good friend of mine
and he photocopied one of them
436
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,120
and sent it to me and signed it.
437
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,840
This is part of the life forms
artwork I did with a series
438
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,920
of about four or five sequences
of photographs.
439
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,920
It shows the body position of me
whatever arena I was working in,
440
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,560
one informed the other.
441
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,280
So we have the photograph
I did with Szabo, the striptease
442
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,400
I was doing in Shepherd's Bush in
London and the art performance, art
443
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,480
action I did at the Hayward Gallery.
444
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,680
I do this set of business cards,
but they're like little artworks
445
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,640
because they fix in time
certain important parts of my life.
446
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:19,080
And this was for one I did it
for Tate, which, as you can see
447
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,200
again, I had to...
448
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,640
..cross out the offending
areas, but there you go.
449
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,800
It's ongoing, isn't it?
450
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,600
I didn't find feminism
spoke for me at all.
451
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,960
In fact, I found it very divisive.
452
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,040
It would split me away from an area
that I was really
453
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,200
enjoying exploring.
454
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:47,400
And I'd been to Gay Liberation
Front in Notting Hill, and I'd seen
455
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,920
first-hand what it was like to be
all-inclusive rather than divisive.
456
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,680
And that's what I liked, and I felt
more affinity with than feminism
457
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,440
at that time.
458
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,720
I didn't hate men.
459
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,080
You know, I loved men, I didn't want
to have to say I don't want men
460
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,920
in my life.
461
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,880
I understand the points completely,
but I am actually out doing
462
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,440
there what you are prescribing,
but in a different way.
463
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,280
I was in a position where I could
explore who I was and do exactly
464
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,720
what I wanted to do.
I had no responsibilities to anyone.
465
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,120
I didn't have to answer to anyone.
466
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,200
Maybe, Gen, but,
467
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,040
you know, that was part
of a relationship and working out
468
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,400
what you are with each other and...
469
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,200
But I didn't find feminism
sparked for me at all.
470
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,960
ECHOING: Catch them, catch them,
catch them, catch them...
471
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,920
Don't waste it, don't waste it...
472
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,960
Sleazy was starting
to get into the mould
473
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,120
of everything, and it was starting
to change.
474
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,080
It became more sinister.
475
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,200
What are you wearing under that?
476
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,240
We met Sleazy when we did the
COUMing Of Age
477
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,320
at the Oval House in London.
478
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,160
Having seen the show one night
and then came to the cafe and sidled
479
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,000
up to us and said,
"Hi, my name is Peter.
480
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,960
"I'm a photographer and I'd like
to take photographs of your show.
481
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,600
"Is that OK with you?"
482
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,880
And yeah, that's why...when he
became Sleazy, because I said
483
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,880
he was...the way he approached
us was very sleazy.
484
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,880
And the fact that he approached us
to take photographs of us naked.
485
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,160
He was interested in COUM, and he
knew it was within his kind of
486
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,680
zone of alternative interests,
shall we say.
487
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,200
So he was wanting to be a part
of it, but also needing
488
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,720
to keep his foot in the Hypnosis
camp because that's
489
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,160
how he earned a living.
490
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,600
He's working with Hypnosis, doing
all these hyper expensive album
491
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:55,240
covers for hundreds of thousands
of pounds for Pink Floyd
492
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,960
and LED Zeppelin, and all in the era
of great overindulgence
493
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:01,360
and massive budgets.
494
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,000
He was just sort of gradually
becoming friends.
495
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,000
He was happy taking photographs
because he was a voyeur, Sleazy,
496
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,320
you know. It got to the point where
I said, "Well, are you actually
497
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,920
"going to do anything or are you
just coming here just to sort of get
498
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,520
"down and dirty now and again,
you know?"
499
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,800
And then we discovered that he'd
joined the Casualties Union
500
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,080
and that he could simulate
epileptic fits and create
501
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,960
really realistic wounds.
502
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,600
So you'd have like rehearsals
for disasters, so they had to make
503
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,120
it look real.
504
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,560
And that interested us in terms
of the art actions as well,
505
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,600
because it was a really fantastic
art form.
506
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,040
And we said, if you, you know,
if you want to do something
507
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,520
with COUM, that would be interesting
for you to do.
508
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,800
The first was Coumdensation Mucus
at the Royal College of Art,
509
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,480
and in the video,
510
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,320
Sleazy appears to slice his arm
open and then stitch
511
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,160
it up with the needle and thread.
512
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:12,320
And we do blood and milk
and wine enemas - which are real -
513
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,400
and then urinate into a milk
bottle and then masturbate.
514
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,280
And it still disturbs people
when we show them...
515
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,880
HE CHUCKLES
516
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,880
..for some strange reason.
517
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,440
Studio Of Lust, which were the three
of us gradually becoming naked
518
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,680
and becoming entwined, which was
something quite new for Sleazy
519
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,080
to be naked with a woman,
cos he was gay.
520
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,200
So I was quite sensitive
to that and careful how I positioned
521
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,040
myself, so I didn't freak
him out completely.
522
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,960
That was his zone that he liked
to be in, pushing himself as well.
523
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,960
It was really good to be with
somebody who was other like me,
524
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,360
if that's a good phrase to put.
525
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,880
Bringing the base element of the
human experience into a public
526
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,960
arena can shock people,
but at the time I had such a long
527
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,240
time in that sphere of being naked
and being at one with myself,
528
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,440
if you like, and with whatever my
bodily functions were, it was me.
529
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,840
We are all the same.
530
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,720
And it's quite OK to share
these things, rather than feel
531
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,920
that there's something we shouldn't
talk about or discuss in public.
532
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,520
My personal belief is that you can
do anything you want to yourself.
533
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,200
Body is your property.
534
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,560
It's not sacred.
535
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,440
It's not owned by society.
536
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,320
It's not owned by family.
537
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,760
It's not owned
by laws and regulations.
538
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,520
It's yours to do with as you choose,
539
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,800
and to explore as you choose.
540
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,040
And for me, that's...that's enough.
541
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,200
There's enough there to keep
you occupied for a very long time.
542
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,320
But the idea of then extending
that out even voluntarily to other
543
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,440
people, it becomes problematic.
544
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,200
It was a party and Chris
was doing a light show.
545
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,600
And then Chris and myself started
discussing our interest
546
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,640
in synthesisers. And as he sort
of entered our world...
547
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,960
..John left.
548
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,320
I was working for so many different
people doing soundtracks, doing
549
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:48,000
lighting, that I kind of felt
I'd lost my way a bit and I thought
550
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,360
I needed just to recoup.
551
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,720
So, yeah, Chris joined us
and he brought again, like John did,
552
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,600
he brought every bit of equipment
he did at one point to the studio
553
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,600
and set it all up. And that was just
like mind-blowing.
554
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,680
And I thought, you know,
this is something totally different.
555
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,160
Never heard anything like it.
556
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,520
What we could produce with
the assistance of Chris's knowledge
557
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,480
is going into new territory
completely with sound.
558
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:20,760
When you're trying to truly change
a society or behaviour or any part
559
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,800
of some social group...
560
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,520
..you can't just use one strategy.
You have to be really aware
561
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,000
of when the moment's gone
and you have to switch.
562
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:41,200
Throbbing Gristle is Yorkshire
slang for an erection.
563
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,920
Throbbing Gristle initially came
from Les. That was just
564
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,720
a throwaway statement.
565
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:48,320
I don't know if I can say this on
camera.
566
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,120
There used to be a big fishing
fraternity in Hull,
567
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,760
and that's their expression
they used to use.
568
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,720
It did describe the way we played.
569
00:34:55,720 --> 00:34:58,440
It was throbbing. And gristly,
it was tough.
570
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,480
And we proved that nobody needed
571
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,680
to have any training to make
successful radical new art.
572
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,640
It's proved that you can also
have a successful, radical,
573
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,240
innovative band with people
who can't play.
574
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:12,680
You have to go to first.
575
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,760
Sleazy wasn't into playing
an instrument.
576
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,920
He couldn't get a note out.
He did try.
577
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,400
He got a cornet and tried
to play it and couldn't do it.
578
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,560
Passed it to me and I managed
to do it.
579
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,520
Well, we don't want a drummer
because that immediately takes
580
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,920
you into traditional rhythms.
581
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,760
The guitarist must not be able
to play, and that was Cosey.
582
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,600
It was just through effects pedals,
striking the guitar and then working
583
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,040
the sound from there.
584
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,840
And there was an old bass guitar
lying around,
585
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,480
somebody had left there.
586
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,400
I think possibly the only one
that played any instrument straight
587
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,280
was Gen's bass because he kept
a rhythm with it.
588
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,520
And Chris was obviously
on his synths and effects units
589
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,640
that he built. And Sleazy wanted
to extend the tape recorder
590
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,280
experiments and cut-ups.
591
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,480
He'd got this Walkman, Sony Walkman.
What Chris did with him
592
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,440
was he used them to build a sampler
so that he could run tapes.
593
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,480
Then built them a little keyboard
that was hooked up to it.
594
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,240
And then you just play. We jammed.
595
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:17,360
ELECTRONIC SOUNDSCAPE
596
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,320
The timbre of the sounds,
the frequencies and the volume...
597
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,040
..that's what it was about.
598
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,440
It was just to sort of rebuild
the notion of what music could be.
599
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:39,960
The direct connection between
frequency and physical response
600
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,800
was something that we investigated
in Throbbing Gristle quite a bit.
601
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,280
In doing so we were quite often
physically sick or had optical
602
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,320
tunnelling effects and things
that could be regarded as probably
603
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,360
not very good for one's health.
604
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,400
We discovered some really weird
things to do with sort of high-level
605
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,840
sound and various sound waves.
Using low frequency sine waves
606
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,320
through really good speakers,
607
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,800
as loud as you can get it does
the strangest things to my knees.
608
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:05,880
It really does.
609
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,760
The ICA had another in its
long-running,
610
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,720
"let's make you sick" series.
611
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:16,120
This was called Prostitution
and featured all the tools
612
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,320
of the trade - and the leftovers.
613
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,800
1976.
614
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,160
We decided mutually that it was time
for COUM Transmissions to end.
615
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:35,920
We'd already been rehearsing
as TG since 1975.
616
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,120
We wanted to then try and see
what happened if we inserted
617
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,640
it into the culture.
618
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,440
The Prostitution show started
off with Ted Little,
619
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,600
who was then the director
of the ICA, inviting us to do
620
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,440
a male art show there.
621
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,400
Quickly turned into something
else as things do.
622
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,200
And during a conversation with him,
I must have mentioned this idea,
623
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,640
and he said, "I'll do
a retrospective."
624
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,080
So Prostitution became
a retrospective of COUM.
625
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,400
And basically our exit
from the art world.
626
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,800
Cosey had just done some modelling
for a magazine called Curious.
627
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,880
There was a picture of her on
a chaise longue with a blindfold
628
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,320
on and above it,
629
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,160
it just said "prostitution".
630
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,600
I thought, well, we're all
prostitutes, really.
631
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,840
So I proposed it should be
called Prostitution.
632
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,680
I decided that that would be where I
present the magazines for the first
633
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,960
time. My magazines were put out
the back in a kind of box
634
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,760
where they were slid in, you know,
like Athena posters used to be.
635
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,840
And you'd pull them out
to have a look, but you had to join
636
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,240
and become a member of the ICA first
before you could see them.
637
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:54,360
It was kind of work around
the laws of pornography.
638
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,360
We had props that we built,
so we ended up with those
639
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,160
being exhibited as well and bits
of costumes that Cosey had made
640
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,040
and bits of costumes that I'd worn.
641
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:11,080
I had this idea for these small
sculptures called Tampax Romana.
642
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,120
The tampons were my used tampons.
643
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,400
I had been collecting
for a while and we used them
644
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,080
in performances, again as part
of that whole thing of showing
645
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,160
what womanhood is.
646
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,920
There was a copy of the
News Of The World on a table...
647
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:32,520
..and I just thought I wonder
what would happen if we sent invites
648
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,720
to all the press.
649
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:39,280
Little did I realise what a furore
it was going to cause.
650
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,800
And then we had the opening.
651
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,080
And lo and behold, all those
editors and journalists
652
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,680
turned up and freaked.
653
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,560
We talked to Ted Little
and said, we want music.
654
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,120
So we got the band Chelsea
that became Generation X to play.
655
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,520
And so a punk element sort of
contingent came along to see them.
656
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:02,800
It was brilliant.
657
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:08,080
And a comedian, John Smith from
Bridlington, who told dirty jokes.
658
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,960
And we had a stripper.
659
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,320
Why not have a stripper?
Let's make it our party.
660
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,480
And then Throbbing Gristle played
live to launch the band.
661
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,960
MUSIC PLAYS
662
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,880
Everyone had been drinking a lot.
663
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,760
And Ian Hinchcliffe was there,
was another quite extreme artist.
664
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,240
I remember there was a cluster of
people and Ian was shouting at Gen
665
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,480
about something
because I didn't get on.
666
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,520
Suddenly I saw stars, and the
journalist from the Evening Standard
667
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,640
had hit me over the head
with a pint beer glass.
668
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,480
And there was just like
a huge fight on the floor
669
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,640
and Ted got kicked in the
balls, had to go to hospital.
670
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,240
Gen, I took Gen to hospital
because he thought he'd broken
671
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:09,200
his little finger and then we came
back and cleared the gear away
672
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,760
into the van and we went home.
673
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:12,800
It was just like...
674
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,960
..being stunned by some hand
grenade, really, that gig.
675
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,760
And the newspapers went crazy.
676
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,040
And then the next like ten days
or so handling all the press
677
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,000
and being hounded by them
outside the house and the market
678
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,560
nearby, in the gallery
being chased by them.
679
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,200
Being slagged off by Spare Rib,
all that, I just didn't even
680
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,160
want to know. Being called
the wreckers of civilisation
681
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,760
by Nicholas Fairbairn
wasn't a real problem.
682
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,600
I don't think we're uncivilised.
683
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,400
In actual fact, I think
we're more civilised
684
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,240
than some people
685
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,040
and some elements of society.
686
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,480
Monte Cazazza over there
will be making the video cassette
687
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,680
of the whole proceedings.
688
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,320
There was a Canadian artist
who called herself Anna Banana.
689
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,240
One day she wrote me this long
letter and amongst the letter,
690
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:19,360
it said, "We met this awful human
being, the worst person
691
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,000
"we've ever met.
He calls himself Monte Cazazza."
692
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,200
And he'd send us all this
information and photographs,
693
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,840
photocopied things that he'd been up
to.
694
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,480
We were at this person's house
talking and drinking wine,
695
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,880
and then he turned up
and he had this small suitcase
696
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,920
and he opened the little case and
it had a dead cat in it, roadkill.
697
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,560
And he had no fear at all
because he had no...
698
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,280
..no career hopes.
699
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,040
And he pulled out the cat, squirted
lighter fuel on it, set it on fire
700
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,720
and then pulled out this gun and
said, "You can't leave the room."
701
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,160
And we just thought,
"Wow, he sounds interesting.
702
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,800
"Sounds like my kind of guy."
703
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,600
He was there when industrial
music got named.
704
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,000
It was him that was saying, "Well,
you keep saying industrial, Gen.
705
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,680
"So it's industrial music."
And we went, "Yeah, you're right.
706
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,240
"It's industrial music."
707
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,280
It was industrious, there was a lot
of research involved.
708
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,520
Chris was obviously very industrious
with his technical experiments
709
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,200
and building equipment.
710
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,000
And that's where it came from
with the irony of the factory,
711
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,640
which is where we were.
712
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,720
In London Fields park, which we were
next to, there were the plague pits
713
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:40,240
from when the Black Plague happened.
714
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:46,080
And so hundreds of plague victims
had been buried under the ground
715
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,480
in the park, and as we were
in the basement, we were actually
716
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,640
at the same level as all
the plague victims.
717
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,920
And I called it the Death Factory.
718
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,480
It was fairly on the cards
that she was going to leave.
719
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,400
They'd fallen in love.
720
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,120
That can't be helped.
721
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,400
Me and Chris were together
but trying not to be for the sake
722
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,360
of the band, and my relationship
with Gen, which was in trouble
723
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:20,840
big time by then.
724
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:22,600
How are we going to cope
with that now?
725
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,520
You know, Gen's going to go
off and do his thing.
726
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,120
You're going to be doing your thing.
727
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,160
And someone like Gen, you know, he's
got a lot of personality and a lot
728
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,440
of energy there, so he was a
difficult man to be around.
729
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,840
And he could throw some
serious, serious tantrums.
730
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,960
That sort of display of anger
731
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,000
can be quite frightening.
732
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,600
It was never going to be an easy
parting, and there was a lot
733
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,320
at stake.
734
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,080
We were much more focused
by then and more serious
735
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,440
about the things we were interested
in and what we wanted
736
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,480
to communicate to people.
737
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,760
It wasn't frivolous any more,
and neither was the climate
738
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,720
in the country, and I think
that had a lot to do with it.
739
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,920
We met Al Ackerman - Blaster -
who we'd been doing mail art
740
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,560
exchanges with and who in the
end ended up writing the lyrics
741
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,120
to Hamburger Lady.
742
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,360
He'd been in Vietnam...
743
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:20,920
..as a medic, and he was working
on the night shift in a hospital
744
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,680
in Eugene, and there was a woman
who'd been in a car crash.
745
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,200
Been burnt so badly, she was known
around the wards as
746
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:30,640
the Hamburger Lady.
747
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,160
Her ears had got burned off
and she couldn't hear, her eyes
748
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,400
had been melted and gone,
so she couldn't see.
749
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,480
And her throat and tongue
had been so damaged,
750
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,480
she couldn't speak.
751
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,960
And we thought,
what would it sound like
752
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:47,680
in that ward, you know?
753
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,320
And it became probably one of the,
strangely enough, the most popular
754
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,400
songs we ever did.
755
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,160
People weren't sort of
turned off by it.
756
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,840
They were...they were driven
to a place of compassion.
757
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,400
# Medical advances... #
758
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,720
There was always an element for most
of TG when I was writing
759
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:19,440
all the lyrics of it being closer at
times to a newspaper. The darkness
760
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,000
in TG came from the time,
the political state of the time,
761
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,640
and also from our own
personal histories.
762
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,720
When I was growing up,
there was the Moors murders.
763
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:32,920
And then, of course, you go
from there in the '60s
764
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,000
and there's Charles Manson.
765
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,840
There was obviously the post-war
thing going on and our parents not
766
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,680
talking about it because
they were so traumatised.
767
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,160
People always go on about the Nazi
element of TG, which just wasn't
768
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:49,760
there at all.
769
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,360
It was just that we were willing
to discuss that thing.
770
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,960
Human beings have done horrendous
things to one another.
771
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,920
Put it out there for discussion.
772
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,000
It's not something you
should hide away.
773
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,040
Why is there this unwritten
boundary or a limitation
774
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,800
on what you can discuss in a lyric?
775
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,720
Just because you mention it
doesn't mean you approve of it.
776
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,600
You know, journalists write
about all sorts of terrible things
777
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,280
and they're not accused
of endorsing it.
778
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,440
People had started looking up to us
for some reason,
779
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,440
like we had all the answers.
We didn't. We were just posing them.
780
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,840
At the beginning, we did
lots of weird stuff, like once
781
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,880
we had just big mirrors in front
of us. That made people angry
782
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,280
because they couldn't see us.
783
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,160
We did another one where
we had halogen lamps along the front
784
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,040
of the stage on the audience,
so that they were blinded.
785
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,560
But we could see them, you know?
786
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,840
But there's only so many ways
you can play with the audience/band
787
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,000
dynamic before it becomes
just trickery.
788
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,280
Yeah, Oundle.
789
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,400
Some guy had heard about us
and written to us and said,
790
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,600
"I could get my music teacher
to book you."
791
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,960
We said, "We'll come and play as
long as we can have a tour of the
792
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,080
"school and have lunch with the boys
in the huge dining area."
793
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,280
It was very strange but interesting
because... I mean, Sleazy knew
794
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,600
what it was like because
he'd gone to public school
795
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,360
and Gen did to some extent,
796
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,080
and we just did what we did
797
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,800
and they really didn't know
what hit them.
798
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,120
And in the end, they started
singing Jerusalem.
799
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,560
It was quite amazing.
800
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,240
Beautiful moment,
full of testosterone.
801
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:43,080
MUSIC: Don't Do As You're Told,
Do As You Think
802
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,360
Monte said something interesting,
he said, "You know they all want
803
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,280
"you to die on stage, don't you?"
804
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,360
I said, "What?"
805
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:56,960
He said, "It would suit everybody
806
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,880
"if you took it so far, you would...
..you died on stage.
807
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,920
"Stay alive out of spite, Gen."
808
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,640
I'd never thought of it that way
that you could actually end up a bit
809
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,800
too much like a sideshow.
"What will Gen do to Gen next?"
810
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,080
And in the end, we're all
going to watch Gen die.
811
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,920
No, that's not what we're trying
to say.
812
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,520
# Persuasion... #
813
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,480
No, I always thought of TG
as a concept that I wanted to see
814
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:35,200
if we could change music and change
popular culture and give it some
815
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,920
extra weight and intelligence
816
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,200
and new systems of expression.
817
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:43,840
And it worked.
818
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:44,960
We did that.
819
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:52,160
But suddenly, it was part-time
for three out of four. We felt
820
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,960
that it became a pastiche
of itself and we'd taken
821
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,600
it as far as we wanted to take
it without it becoming some kind
822
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:04,520
of demon or beast that was not
totally within our control.
823
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:09,440
I think we'd...we'd finish
with the, you know, shouting
824
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,040
in the face and hitting people
on the head with a hammer
825
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,000
kind of approach.
826
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,760
And now we were more interested
in exploring areas that almost
827
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,720
we had no right to enter.
828
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:24,880
You know, real music, like Giorgio
Moroder territory kind of thing.
829
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,360
And even Abba.
830
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:31,320
But it interested us in how
we could approach it and do
831
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:32,600
it our way.
832
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,440
One of these myths that seems
to circulate is that TG ended in
833
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,360
1981 because of bedroom politics
and because I was jealous of Chris.
834
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,720
But I wasn't jealous of Chris.
835
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:49,360
When we were in the studio
recording,
836
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:50,760
it was still really great.
837
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,840
Yeah, because that was important
to, I think,
838
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,520
to all of us, including Gen.
839
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,680
You know, that whatever you decide
840
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:03,040
to do in your extracurricular time,
841
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,600
you could say, I felt should
have been kept separate
842
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,680
and could have been. I mean, we were
all grown ups, you know?
843
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,960
And, you know, we're going to get
into dodgy territory here.
844
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:16,560
I don't want to go into it.
Sure.
845
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:44,360
Can you tell us a bit about some
of the concepts
846
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:46,160
that you're dealing with?
847
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:49,640
No.
848
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,800
# When all the numbers swim together
and all the shadow settle
849
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,240
# Windows forced open shut again,
a fly trap and a petal
850
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:03,640
# My eyes burn and claws
rush to fill them
851
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:08,480
# And in the morning
I fall in love with the light. #
852
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:53,280
# Sometimes I felt I had to run
away... #
853
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:59,960
Mute Records wanted us to...
854
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,840
They put feelers out.
855
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:08,520
Would it be at all possible for us
to regroup to publicise
856
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,000
their release of 24 Hours on CD?
857
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,560
To be really frank,
858
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,280
I still thought, would it
just become like it was last time?
859
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,880
And I'm sure they thought
exactly the same thing,
860
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,280
but we all decided to see.
861
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,320
And so it took place.
862
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,240
When we did the Astoria,
863
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:29,360
that just totally blew me away.
864
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:30,680
When the cheer went up,
865
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,560
when we came out, I didn't quite
know what to do.
866
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,760
It was one of those moments where
you look behind you like someone
867
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,240
else is there
that they're cheering for.
868
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:43,280
I had no idea that we'd had that
effect on people, and such
869
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,720
a wide range of age groups
as well, wasn't just the people
870
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:48,960
that were around when we first
did it.
871
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,480
And that was good because it
more or less said to me
872
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,800
that it functioned well at its time,
873
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:54,920
and since.
874
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:01,000
this is a band called
Throbbing Gristle - Chris, Cosey,
875
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,960
Sleazy and me.
876
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,800
It's been almost
23 years to the day
877
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,600
since we played together.
878
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,160
Wouldn't you just know it?
879
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,920
Oh, it's so hard trying
to do this after so long.
880
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,600
# There's never a way
881
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,240
# To convince people... #
882
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,520
The first time we went
to the studio together after such
883
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,800
a long time, after 20 years or more,
884
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:48,440
we fitted in, we slotted in together
and gelled and produced music
885
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:52,800
within minutes, and it just
seemed like we'd never been away.
886
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,080
It was like being in a time
warp or something. As it went by,
887
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,600
it developed and we did more albums
that were new music
888
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,640
that were equally as interesting.
889
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,840
So it just was one of those things,
890
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,200
it would have mutated naturally
if it kept going.
891
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,440
The music of Throbbing Gristle
featuring Peter Christopherson,
892
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:14,880
who has died aged 55.
893
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,640
There's a part of
me that wasn't totally surprised,
894
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,600
because he'd lived a life of
massive indulgence,
895
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,000
of anything and everything
896
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:32,040
that could take him into
new dimensions and delirious realms
897
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,680
and then his strange,
twisted imagination.
898
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:39,920
Maybe that's why I
called him Sleazy.
899
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,320
You've got a kind of a few
conflicting memories,
900
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,160
but there is a truth in there,
which is all about using
901
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,560
your imagination, being open
to experience,
902
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,560
not being afraid to experiment.
903
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,920
It's allowable to be sad,
to be...or happy, to find humour
904
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,000
in something you shouldn't find
humour in because it's like a
905
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,000
safety valve.
And that's what we are.
906
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,400
Try and find a way to come to terms
with being alive and the strange
907
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,720
mystery of being alive,
but also the mortality.
908
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:18,040
And for me, art should deal
with those, the great mysteries.
909
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,080
And that's why we thought life
and art are inseparable.
910
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:26,000
You know, it's not just random and
death's not the end, you know,
911
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,760
but I can't explain why
I believe that or why.
912
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:31,280
To me, you just know.
116305
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