All language subtitles for BBC.Louis.Theroux.Savile.720p.HDTV.x264.AAC.MVGroup.org

This programme contains some
strong language

and scenes which some viewers may
find upsetting

Jimmy, what are you up to?

'This footage is of a visit
Jimmy Savile made

'to my house in 2001.'

Come and look at
my exercise bike.

We'd had a friendly relationship

since making a documentary
together the previous year.

# Ho ho ho

# Ho ho ho
Ho ho ho

# Ho ho ho... #

One of my reasons for keeping
in touch

was that I thought there was
a side to him I hadn't seen.

All right, then.

Thanks for coming by.
OK. Good morning.

And if you ever do need
a place to crash in London,

you've seen you've got
a room upstairs.

I'm serious. Thank you very much.
I appreciated that.

I'm just going to check out
that it's safe out here.

If I go out backwards,
people will think I'm coming in.

There.

But I never found out the truth
while he was alive.

Good to see you. Good.
All right.

Jimmy! Jimmy! Jimmy!

A report into how Jimmy Savile
was able to abuse children

while working for the BBC
is due to be published.

A leaked draft of
Dame Janet Smith's report

criticised a culture of untouchable
stars at the corporation.

Our media correspondent David
Sillitoe can give us the latest.

David, what do we know so far?

Well, this is the box in which
I keep my Jimmy Savile material.

So the background is I made
this film... It's quite heavy.

..in 2000. When Louis Met Jimmy,
and spent several weeks

over the course of a few months
trying to get to know him.

How's it going? Nice to meet you.
How are you?

Yeah, not too bad.
How are you doing?

You're better looking than me,
you'll have to go.

Anybody better looking than me,
that's it.

Step this way.

How are you feeling?
Regularly. How are you?

Not too bad.

Marvellous, I'm like a
butcher's dog, as it happens,

and there's nothing more fitter and
stronger than a butcher's dog.

All the scraps, all the bones,
all the hair. That's it. Yeah.

15 years after I first
met him,

and three years after the revelation
of his vast offence history,

I decided to speak to some of the
people who'd known Jimmy Savile.

His friends and his victims.

I wanted to try to understand

how he'd got away with
his crimes for so long,

to see what clues there
were in hindsight

'and make sense of my own failure
to recognise him for what he was.'

I've come to wake you up.

That makes the searching
documentaries of the world here...

Hello. Get back. Don't mind him.
Is Kat available?

She is. Shall we come in? Yes.

How are you doing? Nice to meet you.

The first to speak out after he died
had been an ex-pupil at Duncroft,

a boarding school
for troubled teenage girls.

Her name was Kat Ward.

This is Duncroft,
that was how Duncroft was.

I was sent there because I was in
care in Norfolk.

And I kept running away.

So can you remember
the first time

Jimmy Savile came to the school?

There was a level of excitement,
I suppose.

He was someone off the telly.
Oh, God, yes.

We'd all get excited about it.

Well, we'd wonder what he's going to
bring this time.

Sometimes he brought records.
I mean, he was a disc jockey

and he always came loaded
with cigarettes.

Because, of course, back then all
the girls smoked.

And some of the girls would
get chosen to take a ride

in the Rolls with Jimmy.
Is that right?

Yes.

BLEEPING

Did you have any inkling of
what might be in store?

Had there been whispers?

There weren't whispers.
We talked about it openly.

About what he was after?
Yeah, yeah.

He had mainly been doing
a bit of snogging,

sticking his tongue down
your throat,

which was horrible because he
tasted of those fat, smelly cigars,

and he liked to have a grope,
if he could.

There was nothing to grope on my
chest, but he did like to grope.

I think he preferred smaller
breasts, actually.

What makes you say that?

Because the girls that he tended
to select

tended to be on the slender
and less developed side.

If I'm absolutely honest
with you,

the abuse that I suffered at the
hands of Jimmy Savile

was nothing compared to what
had gone before.

So... From your stepfather?

Yeah, and my stepfather's friends.

By the time I was about ten,

I had decided that
men were predators.

Men were bullies.

Men only wanted women
for sexual favours.

So, because I was used to abuse...

This must sound awful.

Because I was more used to it,

I didn't find the sort of
things that he asked for

to be peculiar, because by
that time I had decided that,

well, that's what men do, all men.

You know, I can remember the first
time that he wanted me

to fellate him and I was like,

"No, I don't want to,
I don't want to."

So I gave him hand relief instead.

But then the next time he took me
out and asked me to fellate him,

and I said, "I don't want to.
I don't want to."

He said, "Look if you do, you can
come to London

"and be on my television
programme."

Morning all. Morning all.

Welcome to Clunk Clink.

How are we today?

Obviously if you, as a child,

have to fellate an adult,

there's a lot of gagging
and retching

and quite often vomiting
involved.

He flung the car door open and said,
"Not in the car, not in the car."

Did you watch my documentary
at the time?

Yeah. What did you make of it?

Um...

What were you expecting
and what did you see?

My actual reaction was
along the lines of,

"Poor Louis.

"He's really, really been
hoodwinked here."

Sorry.

Sorry.

It's an awful thing to say.
No, no, it's good to hear that.

After he died, I really had
to take a step back

and examine my own conscience
a little bit to think about,

"Well, what did I miss and what
more could I have done?"

We can all look back now and say,
"Why didn't we see that?

"Yeah, he told us what he was.

"And we didn't see it.
Why didn't we see it?"

He was very clever.

The idea that he might
have a secret

was one of the motivations
behind my original documentary.

Like many, from my teenage years,
I had heard unsavoury rumours

about Jimmy Savile.

From our first day together,

it was clear he enjoyed
the perception

that no-one knew his
private affairs.

Do we not talk about that?
We can talk about anything.

Prince Charles and Princess Diana.
That's right. Talk about anything.

You'll find out how tricky I am.
Next.

Got him on the ropes.

I've got him on the ropes.
He's on the ropes.

But as filming progressed, I saw
that he was committing himself

to the documentary in ways
I hadn't expected

from someone of his celebrity.

Whoa!

'Working long hours.'

Give me the bag, Jimmy.

'Staying overnight in a
caravan in Scotland.

'Letting me sleep in his
dead mother's bedroom.

'On one of our last days
of filming,

'I'd asked about the rumours that
swirled around him.'

It's easy for me,
as a single man, to say,

"I don't like children."

Because that puts a lot
of salacious tabloid people

off the hunt.

Are you basically saying that
so tabloids don't pursue

this whole is he, isn't he a
paedophile line, basically?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Oh, aye.

How do they know whether
I am or not?

How does anybody know
whether I am?

Nobody knows whether I am or not.
I know I'm not.

I can tell you from experience
the easy way of doing it

when they say "All them children on
Jim'll Fix It."

"Yeah, hate them."
Yeah,

To me, that sounds more sort of
suspicious in a way... Hard luck.

..because it seems so implausible.

That's my policy.
That's the way it goes. Really?

'At the time it hadn't felt

'like a particularly
revealing exchange.'

Ho, ho, ho.

And it's on until 10pm.

After the documentary went out,

I felt a degree of gratitude for
the effort he'd put into it

and we kept in touch.

Here we go.
What Jimmy and Louis did next.

"Welcome to the 21st century's
strangest friendship."

"I found Jimmy rather defensive",
says Louis.

"If someone came into your house and
went through your stuff,

"what would you be?" rails Jimmy.

"But I tell you something -
he found zilch.

"I'm not into white powder,
I'm not into that underage shit.

"I'm a marathon runner and we're
very boring people."

JONATHAN ROSS: Louis Theroux with us
in the studio.

Thank you for coming in.
Thanks for having me.

Like most of the country,
I think, I'm intrigued

by what actually goes on
in Jimmy's head,

in Jimmy's life,
in Jimmy's house.

Was there any one thing you wanted
to ask Jimmy when you were there

and you lost your nerve?

Well, it's hard to say.
No, he's pretty much...

You can ask him almost anything.

He is a sexual enigma.

I still haven't really sorted out
what's goes on there exactly.

Our association had lasted
a number of years.

Jimmy Savile used to boast that he
didn't have emotions.

But there are many people who knew
him in a friendly way for decades.

I wondered if they might shed
light on who he really was.

DOORBELL PLAYS JAUNTY TUNE

Hi, Janet. Good morning. Louis.
Hello. How do you do?

I'm better now I've seen you.
Come in.

Shall I take these off?

Only if you're staying in.

What do you think?

Should we go into the garage
and look at some of the stuff?

Yes. Right, I'll just get my coat.

Yes. Can I shut the door now?

Course you can. You do what you
want, Janet? Cut.

Janet Cope was
Jimmy Savile's PA.

Besides his mother, she probably
spent more time with him

than any other woman.

This is your stuff that remains
from when you were working with him

and you worked with him for about
28 years, didn't you?

Yeah, nearly 30.

"Dear Jimmy. I was enormously
touched by your very kind letter.

"Yours sincerely,
Prince Charles."

There's one like that from
Mrs Thatcher somewhere. Is there?

Yeah.

But he always remembered
his team. Yeah.

There wasn't anywhere
I couldn't ring.

To get hold of Downing Street,

I had a direct line
to Downing Street.

It's been quite hard finding close
friends of his to speak now.

Yeah. He didn't have many
close friends.

He found friends an incumbence.

He liked his freedom. He didn't want
anything that weighed him down.

In a way a friendship is a
two-way relationship.

Yes. And really, he wanted
one-way relationships.

Yes. Which is why, I think,
Jim and I got on so well.

He controlled things.

Not in a nasty way,
but in a positive way.

He'd come over here for his dinner.

But he still had control over me,
like what we ate,

the time he would arrive,
the smoking indoors.

Oh, look! "After all this,
it's got to be that."

What do you think about that?

Didn't worry me.
Didn't think twice about it.

Well, for someone who advertised
the fact

that he didn't have any emotions...

No, no, course he...

He loves me cos I'm convenient.

I think I know the answer to this.
Did...?

No, I didn't love him.

Did you see the documentary
I made with him?

Yeah. Yeah. I did.

Did you have any thoughts on it?

I laughed because I thought,

especially when you were in the back
of that camper van

and he said he slept in
it all night.

I thought, "Good old Louis,
he's believed him."

You think he didn't?
No, of course he didn't.

What makes you think he didn't?

Because he's a good liar.

He used to tell people how
many marathons he'd done.

Every time he'd tell journalists the
number of marathons he'd done,

the number was different.

But I had no proof and neither
did anybody else,

because nobody checked up on it.

Did you feel that he had
any sexual interests?

I used to tell people that
he was asexual

because people always accused him
of being gay and he wasn't gay.

But then he wasn't craving
what I call female...closeness.

In my... Not that I ever
saw or witnessed. Ever.

Jim fixed me.
I remember that.

I read it at the time.

"For 28 years she was PA to the
eccentric Savile.

"Even cooking
and cleaning for him.

" 'Then one day', says Janet Cope,
'she was out, not with a warning

" 'and not even a thank you.' "

I was sick to death of hearing him
say, "Put the kettle on."

Made the tea, took it in.
Just put it all around the table.

And then he said... One thing led to
another. I can't remember.

He said, "She's going." She's out.
She's out.

Pointing at you?

Yeah, well, I was...

I don't know how I felt,
I was gobsmacked.

I went up to him and I just said,

"Jim, why have you done this to me?
Why have you done this?

"I've lied for you. I've looked
after you all this time.
Why have you done this to me?"

He had a pile of papers
in his hand.

He said, "Today's today,
tomorrow's tomorrow.

"I've got a train to catch. End of."

He didn't understand
other people's feelings.

He didn't.

He just didn't.

But then they weren't
important to him,

so why should he understand them?

Janet, you have been Jimmy's
assistant for 20 years...? Was. Was.

LAUGHTER

Before you leave his employ,
can you tell us about it?

Yes, Jimmy has a dream and he
usually makes dreams come true.

I couldn't help feeling that Janet
too had been used by Jimmy Savile.

A provider of food and shelter
and showing total loyalty

and yet without ever really
getting close.

It was striking that someone
could know him so well

while also knowing him
barely at all.

In our time together,

Jimmy Savile had only entertained
serious questions

about his private life
on one occasion.

Do they ever ask you to host it?
Not just now.

'During a visit to the flat in
Scarborough he'd once shared

'with the only woman he'd ever
said he loved.'

You said you have the
Duchess's clothes?

Yeah, artefacts. Artefacts.
Artefacts.

'His mother, who he called
the Duchess.'

My cleaner takes them out

and gets them cleaned and freshened
up once...

about once a year. Now all this gear
was gear she wore,

so instead of slinging it away,
I thought I would hang on to it,

cos these make better souvenirs
than photographs.

Look, it's all knitting,
stuff like that.

Knitting.

Knitting.

We both lived here.
Together? Of course.

Did that not cramp your style
a little bit?

No, not at all.

If you see over there on the
horizon a caravan camp.

Yeah. I had a caravan there.

So that was the love nest.

It was my big chance to address
the central question

of what his sexual interests were.

Do you mean to say that you've
never, ever, ever had a girlfriend?

Friends that are girls,
eight million.

Friends that are girls.
Yeah.

But girlfriend in the sense
of today,

ie, you are together, you don't
bother with anyone else, et cetera -

no, never.

Never.

Not even for like a week?
No. Not even for a week. No.

What strikes me looking back
is that in describing large numbers

of fleeting encounters,

he was telling part of the truth,

leaving out that they involved
child molestation,

rape and sexual assault.

A few weeks after the documentary
aired in 2000, I received a letter.

It came from two women
who described themselves

as girlfriends of Jimmy Savile.

"We watched your TV programme
with great interest.

"It's a shame in your research you
didn't find us

"and ask us some questions
about Jim.

"We could have directed you
as to how to tackle him

"and what to ask.

"Contrary to what Jim would like you
to believe,

"Jim did have a lot of girlfriends,
not girls that were just friends.

"We were two of them. All
Jim's girlfriends knew each other.

"There was never jealousies.

"We're all enormous friends
to this day."

I went along to meet them
for tea in London.

They were in their mid-40s.

They described a long friendly
relationship

that had start decades
earlier at the BBC.

But knowing everything I know now
about Jimmy Savile,

some details of what they told
me are troubling.

I said to one of them,
"How old were you?"

"You sound like Jimmy", she said,

"That's the first question he
would always ask. How old are you?"

"Why?" I said, "Why do you think?"

If you extract the details,

it is predatory and...

inappropriate and unhealthy.

In fact, one of them had been 15
when she started the relationship,

so it is criminal.

But you've got the friendship
and also their tone,

which was to do with affection.

At the time, I took the
relationships to be symptomatic

of a different era, the show
business world of the '60s and '70s.

In fact, in those early days
at the BBC,

Jimmy Savile was involved
in multiple sexual assaults.

Some involving children.

The shows he made gave him
access to vulnerable youngsters...

and also the celebrity
and the cache to win their trust.

Oh, don't go in the water.

Hi, Gill. Hi, Louis.

Louis, how do you do?
How do you do? Nice to meet you.

You too.

Do you come out here quite a bit.

'Gill Stribling-Wright,
an ex-BBC producer,

'worked with him on and off
for 30 years.'

What was your professional
association with Jimmy Savile?

Well, I was a researcher on
Jim'll Fix It

right from the beginning,

and before that, two series of a not
very successful show

called Clunk Click. Did you also
work on Top Of The Pops?

I worked on Top Of The Pops, yes.

Have you familiarised yourself with
the various accounts

by victims of what happened in the
reports that have come out?

No. I haven't read in detail
the reports

because I don't quite know what
I'd do with it. Hmm.

I didn't see anything.

I've done various interviews
about it

and I really didn't see anything

that would give me cause
for concern.

The music industry was like that,

sex and drugs and rock and roll.

People could get away with stuff,
as much as they probably still do.

The small difference of this being
a BBC studio,

a BBC dressing room, basically a
kids' show... Right.

A kids' show that you
were working on.

It always sounds shocking when
people say they're not shocked

and horrified and dramatically
overwhelmed by everything,

but, um...I wasn't.

I wonder if you would react slightly
differently if you read the reports.

There's an accumulation of account
which is...

There were words that you mentioned,

"horrifying", but which are
actually justified.

And which you can only
really appreciate

if you see the scale, if you try to
comprehend the scale

of what went on.

It sounds when we talk about it
like you're trying to...

I feel like I'm trying to justify
why this thing happened

and why nobody did
anything about it.

I mean, my relationship with Savile
was very much in the workplace.

I didn't see him on any
social occasions,

but then, as he once said to me,

I was a bit walnut-ish.
I was in my mid-20s.

What did you take
walnut-ish to mean?

A bit too old.

Because walnuts are sort of wrinkly?

Wrinkly, exactly.
Brown and wrinkly. Exactly.

Part of his persona was the fact

that he would tread very close
to the line,

in hindsight, you realise now.

I once had a conversation with
him about the perfect crime.

And he said, "The problem is
it's not a perfect crime

"unless you can get the kudos for
having committed the perfect crime,

"but the second you get the kudos
for having committed

"the perfect crime,
ie by telling somebody,

"it is then no longer
the perfect crime."

I sometimes wonder if he was
kind of teasing the world

in an effort to be discovered.

Here's another one. Louis's tip.

I think that's when he came into
the office on one occasion.

In 2001, Jimmy Savile paid a visit
to my BBC offices

for a short follow-up documentary.

Good morning. Hello. How are you?

What a dreadful tip this is.

Dreadful tip.

He was dressed inappropriately,
his behaviour was borderline creepy,

but at the time, like others,

I felt this was part of his
comic persona.

Louis's tip.

Right.

Oh, my goodness!

Oh, yes! Yes!

Here. I hope that
Mr Louis Theroux never comes.

That will do for me.

I would like to strip these girls,
baring their secrets.

Mr Jimmy Savile, how are you doing?

You didn't jog all the way down,
did you?

Where've you been?

This beautiful girl has just
come in bearing gifts.

Thank you. You are very, very kind.

Can you walk away slowly, please?

Thank you. Now what I'm going to do,
because I'm in the BBC,

I must now change.

You don't mind if I
change here, do you?

Looking back he almost seems
to be showing

how much he can get away with.

And daring us to challenge him.

Later, his conversation returned
to a favourite theme

of how to deal with unwelcome
attention from the tabloids.

Does it perturb you at all that you
are actually in that category

where somebody can have a
go at you?

They don't care whether it's right,
wrong, true, false,

so long as they've got names, baby,
they'll have a feast.

Say, for instance, you were
interviewing me

on an allegation of something that
was not nice, right?

And you said to me,
you're alleged to have...

de-dum-de-dum-de-dum.

My answer would be, "It would be a
lot worse if it were true."

Well...
LOUIS CLEARS HIS THROAT

They do say no smoke without
a fire, don't they?

After he died,
there were numerous reports

detailing the scale of
Jimmy Savile's offending.

They identified 326 victims,

describing a range of incidents,

from the relatively less serious
to rape and child abuse.

72 victims involved the BBC.

177 were at hospitals.

"We know that your client has
agreed not to pursue a claim

"against this newspaper."
That's right.

They said that I was derogatory
to patients.

Right. Which I wasn't. And so they
agreed that I wasn't

and they said,
"We have made a mistake,

"kindly take this nice few quid."

That seems a bit rich,
given how much...

I mean for them to accuse you of
being derogatory to patients

given how much money you raise.
That's why they all pay up.

Do they? Oh, aye.

Cherie Wheatcroft was a
patient at Stoke Mandeville in 1973.

DOORBELL BUZZES

Hello. Louis.

How do you do? How do you do?
Nice to meet you. Hello, hello.

Come in. Thank you.

How do you like to say your name?
Che-ree or Cher-ee?

Are you Clive? Hi. Louis.

Very pleased to meet you.
Nice to meet you.

Are these all your paintings? Yes.

That's what I spend
most of my time doing.

Painting all day
and actually all night, mostly.

They're beautiful. Thank you.
Very nice.

There's a lot of
James Blunt pictures.

Well, I did...

Do you specialise in him?

No.

Basically, my daughter was a big fan
and she introduced me to him.

We went to see him.

Believe it or not, James Blunt
came at the side of me

and I got pushed into him.

Look at that. That's brilliant.
Yeah.

All right?

Do you consider yourself
to have been a victim?

Are you happy with that term?

Em...yeah.

I would never let my children
watch him on television.

As soon as anything
came on about him,

I would turn the television off.

When Jim'll Fix It was on?

Yeah, anything like that.

But you said you watched
the documentary I made in 2000?

Yes, I did watch that.

So what did you...?
What was the feeling of...?

I was just really, really annoyed.
I was, like, fuming.

I just thought,
"Oh, he's a silly chap,

"he doesn't know what goes on.
He doesn't know.

"So gullible." You know?

Why have you written my name
and address on this pad?

Because I never know whether you
existed or not.

Yeah. How did you get the address?

I get anything, me.
How did you get it, though?

I can get anything.
There's nothing I can't get

and there's nothing I can't do.

Thank you.

You felt that I was gullible
and silly?

Mm, oh, yeah.

You were young. And he was like,
"I'm the celebrity.

"I'm... I'm big." You know.

And then that just came over
that he was manipulating things.

What has been difficult
is realising that...

I failed to get to the truth about
him and that I wasn't able to do

more to kind of bring him to account
while he was still alive.

Well, he was so good
at disguising everything.

I was at school doing A-levels.
But all hell went loose because

I found out I was pregnant.

I was too scared to let my parents
know about it, and I had it

on January 18th
and they didn't know.

I just wanted to go home.
And there was a huge electric

two-bar fire behind the door,
and I fell on it,

like this. So I remember looking at
my hands and just fainting.

And then I didn't know
where I was going, of course.

I just remember seeing trees go by.

I got to the hospital and
obviously started to come round.

I couldn't use my hands.
They were all bandaged up.

And I was sitting on the end
of my bed and I was just

looking out the window,
as I am now...

..and I saw somebody just running,
but as they were running,

they looked at me, and of course
I was looking at them.

And their run...
They changed course.

And the eyes fixed on me. And they
started running directly towards me.

And the next minute, the person
tried to climb in the window.

And I just couldn't
believe it. I was like

in shock, and he was
climbing in, and by the

time he got down,
jumped down, he was then

smiling but came straight at me.

Went to kiss me and stuck
his tongue right down my throat.

Went for my face. Obviously,
I couldn't use my hands.

Held my face and put his tongue
right down my throat.

And it wasn't just quick.
It went on and on.

And then he started jabbering.

"You've been a naughty girl,
haven't you?

"You've been
a naughty girl, haven't you?

"You've been a naughty girl
with your boyfriend, haven't you?"

He just kept on repeating.
It wasn't just, like,

going on to one sentence and then
another. He just kept repeating it.

Because I didn't answer,
he kept repeating it.

And there was things
coming out about my health

and previous things,
and I thought...

Straight away I knew
that he'd seen my health record.

Something gave me the idea that he'd
seen my health records or that he'd

spoken to the head surgeon,
as well, whatever,

or somebody had told him
that I'm on my own in there.

It sort of suggests
that he had scoped you out.

I mean, I don't want to compare

something hideous
that you went through to

something trivial,
but in my documentary

there's a moment when
he shows me a bit of paper

with my address on it,
which was ex-directory

and therefore not easy
to get hold of, that led

me to believe that he had
somehow finagled his way into...

or knew someone with access to my...
You know, some civil servant.

I think he probably did.

You've been with Clive
about 20 years, did you say?

Yes. And I imagine
you spoke to Clive about

the Jimmy Savile incidents? Oh, yes,
yes. You knew about that before?

I've known about it in fleeting
parts, only when Cherie has

opened up about it. Mm-hm.

The most current question
that people ask, I have

noticed, is "Why didn't you
say something about it?"

I'm furious with myself, as well.

Why on earth didn't
I just go up to somebody

and complain and make a thing of it?

But you were scared to.
He'd got money, influence.

You know, that whole thing,
you were, you know,

you were just, like, scared
to say anything, you know.

'In 2000, Jimmy Savile
had taken me to

'the hospital where he'd
once abused Cherie.

'Throughout the '70s
and afterwards, he'd continued

'to visit, raising millions
for a new building.'

So, where are we, in fact?
This is the Stoke Mandeville

spinal injuries centre?

No, this is the National
Spinal Injuries Centre

at Stoke Mandeville Hospital.

'Is this the jewel in the crown of
the Jimmy Savile accomplishments?'

I would have said
it's the biggest. Yes.

How does it make you feel,
walking through these

corridors which you were
instrumental in building?

Well, seeing as they've
been open for 20 years,

I don't feel anything now.
Just nice and happy that it's here.

'At the time, amid all his
bizarre qualities, Jimmy Savile's

'charitable work had felt like
his great redeeming feature.

'In hindsight,
it was a smokescreen for his abuse

'and a way of getting access
to vulnerable people.

'I was curious to meet
someone from the hospital

'and to hear how they made sense
of it all now, looking back.

'Sylvia Nicol worked closely
with Jimmy Savile on the

'Stoke Mandeville appeal.'

Hi. Sylvia? Louis.
Yes! Hello, Louis!

Can I come in? Yeah, I'll let
you come in! You'll let me? OK.

I will. Thank you.

Is that you there? Yeah, that's me.
That's Jan, me and Marie-Ann.

In what capacity were you working
when you first met him?

As a medical secretary, at the NHS

in the spinal centre
at Stoke Mandeville Hospital.

He came to Stoke in '69, and it was

to do a walk for the Red Cross.
And he stayed.

He basically made our office
a bit of a base.

It was 2nd January 1980.

We had a really bad snowstorm.

All our ceilings were caving in.
They were wooden huts built in 1943.

The lights were full of water

as the snow was melting,
you know, that deep,

and it was chaos.

And Dr Silver then phoned Jim.

"You must come, you must come.
You've got to do something."

And Jim did. And within two days,
we were flooded with letters

into Stoke Mandeville.

Just "Jimmy Savile, Stoke Mandeville
Hospital" is all it would say.

And in it would be cheques
and money, fluffy toys,

everything came in. And when
did it open, do you recall?

1983, August 3rd
was the opening day.

That was where Prince Charles
and Princess Diana came along? Yeah.

Prince Charles went to
Stoke Mandeville Hospital

in Buckinghamshire today
to open a new unit, and even

though it wasn't planned,
he took his wife along with him.

Only I know the real reason the
princess is here, and I must say

it's a complicated way of getting
a request played on Radio 1.

LAUGHTER

When I said that it cost
£10 million,

how on earth do you raise
£10 million in three years?

APPLAUSE

Oh, my goodness. You can get it out,
if you can. Yeah.

Can I? There it is. There it is.

So this picture, when people said,

"Have you got anything you can give
us when we send you money in?"

we sent them this, quite
a big photograph, probably

that big, of Jim, rolled up.

As a thank you for donations, yeah.

There's the Lego. And, as you can
see, it's the same colouring.

Who did that? Lego. Lego did it?
Legoland sent us that.

Everything just came to him.
It was an unbelievable experience,

that appeal.

Now, every morning I open this door
and say, "Why don't you do

"something about all this?"
You do? I do.

I can see him. I don't
quite cover his face,

and I say, "Why don't you do
something about all this?"

Because I reckoned
he could do anything.

Do something about what?

This...what's...furore
that's arisen since he died.

Do you really do that? I really
do that. Why do you do that?

I don't know. I don't know. Because
what else can you do? You can't...

I did pray to God a little bit,
occasionally. Sort of said,

"Why is all this happening?"

Because it was just...shattering.

So, basically, am I right
in thinking you don't really believe

that, um...

..he raped, abused, molested?

No, I've never said
that I don't believe that.

I've made an absolute point
of saying

I only saw the good in Jimmy Savile.

I never saw anything in that line.

And had I seen anything
in that line, I would

have been the first to report it.

I believe that you didn't see
anything like that.

I didn't see anything like that
either. Nor hear anything like that.

But I also have to, erm...

..believe those accounts and...

try to square them with...
the person that I thought I knew.

But you didn't know him
for as long as I did.

We've had a pretty ghastly time.

Go on.

I'm a victim,
his family are victims

as much as anyone else
would be a victim.

Who or what are you a victim of?

I'm a victim of...
losing those memories.

And that is quite a big thing
out of your life...

..because when you get older, your
memories do become more important.

And that was many years of memories.

He wasn't a friend to me,
he was a friend to what I'd...

..spent 50 years of my life with,
which is the spinal centre.

And...

we wouldn't have a spinal centre
there now but for Jimmy,

which would mean we wouldn't have
a lot of people still alive.

Look in the corner. Oh, yeah.

You needn't film that,
but I'm not going to get rid of it.

Can I take it out? Yeah.

Past...

This one? Hmm.

It's been there for years.
It's been there for...

It was Jim on one of his cruises.

That one can go back there.
That's discreet.

So I try to only know,
and I do know,

that I only saw good.

And that's all
I can ever say about this.

Sylvia seemed a stark example
of how Jimmy Savile

was able to win the good opinion
of well-meaning people.

'In the two years
after my documentary,

'I made three or four visits
up to Leeds.

'There was always
a professional reason,

'recording DVD inserts
or doing press for shows.

'And I continued to be tantalised
by whether the mask might slip.'

It's all right, no sweat.

'But there was also
a social dimension -

'a part of me had come to see him
as something like a friend...'

Don't think I've ever been here
in the summer before.

Yeah, me neither.

What's happening now?

I'm just getting you
the attention you deserve.

'..while he had begun taking a
proprietary interest in my career.'

Your future is safe in my hands.

Not only is your future safe,
it's also glittering.

We would visit a local restaurant
called the Flying Pizza.

All right, my pleasure.
See you later.

SAVILE LAUGHS

These images now make
for uncomfortable viewing.

In fact, the mother and daughter
were known to Jimmy Savile

but it's striking, looking back now,

how he normalised
physically invasive behaviour,

constantly blurring the line
of what he was permitted to do.

She said, "I love your programmes,"

and the other one goes,
"I think they're boring."

SAVILE LAUGHS

That's true.
She said, "I think they're boring."

I know.

Going home? Yes, please.

Still got the Flying Pizza
name on it. It is.

It's Saint Carlo Flying Pizza.
Yeah.

Let's hop out.

It's actually quite an
unprepossessing building, isn't it?

I was back in Jimmy Savile's
hometown of Leeds

for the first time
since being there with him.

'I was with Susan,
a woman who'd met him in the '70s,

'and still lives close
to his old stomping ground.'

So you'd actually met him
on these two occasions,

is that right?

Yes, the first time
when I tested his eyes,

and the second
when I delivered the specs.

I think it was 1972.

ANNOUNCER: Jimmy Savile!

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

He used to wear
great big plastic glasses.

And I remember the manager
called and said,

"Your specs are ready,"

and that's when
he said to the manager,

"Send the one with the big knockers
and the short skirt."

That was how I looked
when I was about 21, 22,

so that's...

That's who you were at that time?
That's who I was.

In those days, one of
my main features was my boobs

and I always got teased about them
so, yeah,

when he said, "Send the one with
the big knockers and short skirt,"

it didn't mean anything.

You know, I never thought
anything of it. Yeah.

Evidently, because you went.
Because I went, in a taxi.

Clutching a pair of specs,
knocked on his door and in I went.

And then went through into this
really shabby back-to-back terrace,

down Consort Terrace it was.

So, "Jimmy Savile
guided tours of Leeds".

I didn't know
they were doing that. Gosh!

That was April 2012.
That can't have lasted very long.

Yeah, now I look at it,

I can remember going up the steps
and ringing the bell.

And it was just disgusting,
it was filthy.

Clothes... His tracksuits
all over the floor.

Empty cereal packets everywhere.
Just dirty.

So then what happened?

So then I took the glasses
out of the box,

and I must have stood
obviously fairly near him,

like this, to put the specs on,

and that's when he grabbed my boobs

and he actually
stuck his tongue in my mouth.

And then as I stood back,
he dropped his tracksuit bottoms

and said, "How's about that, then?"

And there was his...pink,
wrinkly willy, as I described it.

And he said,
"How's about that, then?"

Yeah, cos that was his phrase.

That was his catchphrase.
That was his catchphrase, yeah.

And then he just sort of
got on with the rest,

put the glasses on, did...

Pulled his tracksuit bottoms
back up?

Pulled his tracksuit bottoms
back up,

and then just carried on
as though nothing had happened.

Put the glasses on, and then
he did this very brief interview

on a reel-to-reel tape thing,
I think it was.

Having just exposed himself to you,

he said, "Do you want to be
on my radio programme?" Yeah.

Yeah, and of course, I'm there
with this famous person,

so I said, "Yeah, OK."

APPLAUSE

This afternoon, as we celebrate
Jimmy Savile's requiem mass,

it is our belief that although
his body is stilled in death,

his flamboyant and generous soul
lives on.

I listened to Radio Leeds, and
they wanted people to come forward

with stories about Jimmy Savile,

so I put forward that
I'd tested his eyes as a student

and that's
where I stopped the story.

DJ: "Back in 1972, I was a very
inexperienced student optometrist.

"I had to test Jimmy's eyes.

"I later then delivered
his new specs to his home,

"which was full of tracksuits, bling
and packets of cornflakes!"

CHUCKLING:
That's a great story, that!

Thank you very much indeed for that,
Susan, I enjoyed reading that!

Everybody else was texting
Radio Leeds, and I thought,

"Well, I actually met him,
I did test his eyes,"

so that's all I was saying.

I missed the second half
of the sentence out.

NEWS REPORTER:
13 different police forces

are now dealing with
a catalogue of complaints

against the late Sir Jimmy Savile,

including the shocking allegation

that the TV star molested
a brain-damaged girl

at the Leeds General Infirmary...

When everything was revealed,

I realised that
I'd had a lucky escape.

And then, of course, I sent
yet another message to Radio Leeds

to say, "Well, actually,
I sent a message to say

"that he tested my eyes,
but here's the full story,"

and within half an hour,

they'd sent a reporter
up to my work.

It's made me feel worse now
than it did 40-odd years ago.

Oh, I'm sorry.
No, no, I can live with it.

It just makes you think.

It had taken Susan nearly 40 years
to acknowledge to herself

that what had taken place
was an assault.

It was as though Jimmy Savile's
sense of personality and entitlement

had been so strong in life

that she hadn't felt permitted
to see her experience

for what it was.

TV: This has been one of
the most important inquiries

in the history of this organisation.

What happened was profoundly wrong.

It should never have started,

it should certainly
have been stopped.

Sexual abuse is sexual abuse.

It can never be excused.

When Dame Janet Smith
published her report

into the BBC's role
in the Savile affair,

among the many victims interviewed
were the two women

who had written me a letter in 2000
and who I'd met for coffee.

'They'd come forward
amid the tsunami of revelations

'to say that their relations
with Jimmy Savile had been abusive.'

That was sort of the closest
I got to getting the truth.

But at the time that I met them,

they were still describing
themselves as his friends.

But I feel as though
if they'd been more able to speak...

speak out that time,

I could have done more to bring out
the truth while he was alive.

It was upsetting to realise that
I'd actually met two victims

while Jimmy Savile was still alive.

I wondered whether if I'd handled
the encounter in a different way,

they might have felt able
to say more

or whether they simply
hadn't been ready,

intimidated by the perception
of his power.

Once he'd been unmasked,

the rumours that had circulated
around Jimmy Savile in life

took on a whole new gravity.

I tried to think
where I'd heard the rumours

and traced one back
through my mum to my aunt,

who worked at the Mail On Sunday.

She told me she'd heard it from
a co-worker called Angela Levin.

Hi, Angela. Louis. Hello.

How do you do? Nice to meet you.

Mind if I join you? Please.

So, you heard
that there was an interest

in disabled youngsters when?

What year was that?
In the mid-'80s.

When you did your first profile?

Well, I found him despicable
and I found him a bully

and I found him a control freak.

He would, I was told anonymously
by one nurse,

play with little girls who were
paralysed from the waist down.

I mean, it seems odd
that in a newspaper

where you have the resources
to get that story out there

and do something about it,

that if you believed it,

that you couldn't have somehow
done something?

Well, I think it wasn't the case
that if you believed it,

you could do it, because
the libel laws were very strong.

He was also extremely connected.

He raised £30 million,

he could threaten
to not raise another penny.

You'd have to be a very brave paper
to do that.

Let me present a kind of alternate
reality scenario to you,

that a nurse tells you

that Jimmy Savile
comes to visit her hospital,

and he molests disabled girls,
right?

Which is sort of... That's what
she told you, is that right?

And then you then feed that back
to the investigations team,

or some senior people at the Mail,

and they go to work
attempting to substantiate that,

and he's caught,

and then maybe
even hundreds of victims

are prevented
from ever being molested.

It's not a scenario
that ever happened.

I don't think I went back
and told the investigations team.

No, but I'm saying, if you had,
if you'd blown the whistle...

Are you trying to blame this
on me?!

No, no, I'm just trying to,
in a sense...

I mean, there were lots of people...

..see if there was more
we could have done.

We as a society are attempting
to learn from what's happened.

Yes, I think you mustn't be
overwhelmed by someone's fame,

but I think that nobody is,
in the same way, you know.

He was very, very famous,
he had very, very good connections,

he raised a load of money
for charity.

And I think
that's very intimidating.

He knew people in high places.

Jimmy Savile's power had created

an aura of invulnerability...

..so strong that, even now,
after all the revelations,

there are still those
under its influence...

..as I had discovered when
I'd interviewed Janet Cope.

This is my wedding certificate,

and it's got Jimmy Savile on it,
look.

Oh, yeah. "In the presence of..."
And that's...

That's a good photo.

That's outside the registry office,

cos I had to start the ball rolling
in the registry office.

And then we went to Stoke Mandeville
church, at the hospital.

Basically, he gave you away,
is that right?

He did indeed. As a father
normally would?

Yeah, but I didn't have
any relatives,

so Jim was my nearest and dearest,

so I asked him if he would give me
away, and he said yes. Ready?

Ready.

TAPE RECORDER CLICKS

APPLAUSE

'Today and days like this

'I think enrich the lives of
human beings.

'When we get together on a day
like today, it lifts us all.

'Thank you for coming,
and God bless the both of you.'

APPLAUSE

Jim is now lying
in an unmarked grave

on a hill in Yorkshire, and he's...

He's not recognised any more

as being the good, good person
that he was.

I don't know whether you've seen it
all, but it's made my hair curl.

Do you mean things that came out
after he died

about his activities?
Yeah, that people made up. Yeah.

Which he didn't do.
Which you don't believe?

No, I don't believe it.

It was impossible for him to do
many of the things

that he was accused of.

You've read the Stoke Mandeville
report.

Yeah, this one, yeah. And you
didn't find them persuasive?

Many of these claims from Jim
are going back to the '60s.

I mean, I was grateful if somebody
gave me a pat on the bum,

but you can't apply the same rules,

because it was a different era,
it was just different.

It's important to remember

that many of the allegations
and the encounters

that are described are much more
serious than a pat on the bum.

Go on, then, give me one.

Girls aged between 10 and 14

in which he puts his hand down

and touches them intimately,
you know,

in a totally unwelcome...
I doubt it, I doubt it.

Do you think it's possible

that because of your
close association with him

for so many years, that you've
slightly lost your objectivity?

Do you think that's possible?

No.

No. Definitely not,
I don't think so.

What makes you ask that?

The discovery of Jimmy Savile's
offences has meant that

anyone who knew him
has the task of reappraising

that part of their life.

Shall I put a finger on the knot?

INDISTINCT CONVERSATION

As I look back at rushes
from my documentary,

I'm caught between a sense of
missed clues

and an awareness of the
distorting power of hindsight.

And I think how amazing it is

to realise he knows
he's being recorded.

Now, then, hey! Hey, hey, hey,
wonderful. Very good, very good.

Jimmy...

What was going on there?

Well, what was going on there
is called opportunity.

And I'm a great opportunist.

And if I see a lady in distress,
scantily clad,

I'm the first to offer my finger
to put on the knot.

See you in the morn. OK.

Goodnight. Night.

In fact, in all the hours of footage
I've seen of Jimmy Savile,

there is only one section
I know of

in which he doesn't appear
to realise he's on camera -

when the director of my original
documentary taped him

after I'd gone to bed.

In the dance halls,
I invented zero tolerance.

I wouldn't stand for
any nonsense whatsoever, ever.

Ever, ever, ever.

I was always in trouble with the law
for being heavy-handed, always,

but I couldn't care less
about that.

Ejecting people
who were mucking about?

No, I never threw anybody out.
Tied 'em up and put 'em

down in the bloody boiler house

until I was ready for 'em - two
o'clock in the fucking morning.

They'd plead to get out!

At the time, this material
was shocking because it felt

so unlike the Jimmy Savile
most of us knew.

You know, if a copper
came and said,

"You was a bit heavy with that kid,"
or those two guys, whatever,

I'd say, "Your daughter
comes in here.

"She's 16, she's not supposed
to come into town,

"but she does and she comes here.

"I presume you'd like me
to look after her.

"If you don't want me
to look after her, tell me

"and I'll let them dirty slags
do what they want to her."

"All right, Jim, all right."

"All right, then. Don't give me
a fucking hard time, then."

"Yeah, you're right,

"you didn't give the bastard
half enough, I'll tell you, Jim."

"Thank you, goodbye."
I never got nicked.

HE CHUCKLES

And I've never altered. No.
I've got a zero tolerance, me.

Now it feels like one of
the only examples we have on film

of Jimmy Savile behind the scenes.

The Jimmy Savile his victims knew.

Hello. Hello! Are you Sam? I am Sam.

Louis. How are you doing?
I'm good, thank you.

Nice to meet you. And you.
Shall I take my shoes off?

Our paths crossed
because we used to go to church

on a Saturday evening,
which is where he used to go.

Because that was on
the hospital premises.

It was the Stoke Mandeville chapel,

in effect. Yeah.

My job at church was to take
the collection plate around.

There was a little presbytery room,
and that's where I used to go

and get my collection plate.

And he used to go and stand
in there.

So I'd go in, I'd get the plate,

which would always be
behind Jimmy Savile.

So I always had to reach
to get the plate.

And then... And then he would do
whatever he wanted to do.

While the service was going on...
Mm. ..he'd be back there...

The whole time. He would never sit
with the congregation,

he would always be in the back room.

Now, how old were you?
That was about 11.

Because my grandad had stopped,
um...

had had to stop abusing me
about that time,

because we moved
to a different house.

How old had you been when your
grandfather began molesting you?

From about two.

I was in hospital a lot.

For as long as you can remember,
in other words. Always, yeah.

Always.

It was easy for Jimmy Savile.

What he was doing was no different
from what, you know,

had happened all my life, so...

He picked really easily and well.

Are you OK? I'm just aware
that it's quite distressing to...

It's quite... I mean,
it's a horrible thing to...

We've heard... ..hear about.
We've...

It's quite nice, actually,

that Mum has got brave
enough recently

to be able to do this,
because then we're grown-ups, too.

So...

And Mum's our responsibility
as much as we are hers, so...

Are you OK to go into
a little more detail?

Yeah, as long as you're OK, because
I'm going to say it as it is.

Yes, please. I'm not going to
make anything sound nice,

or...or I'm not going to
soften anything.

I'm going to say the acts.

Nobody really wants to hear them
facts... No. Hmm.

And they're real facts.

I used to go in there,
there were times when...

Because I didn't have my period
for a long...

You know, I was quite late.
So what I used to try and do

to keep myself safe to go to church

was, my oldest sister
had Tampaxes,

so I used to force the Tampaxes
into myself to try and...

..stop...

try and protect myself.

And I used to wear lots of pairs
of knickers,

just to make it harder.

Sometimes he used to put his hands
into my mouth, erm...

..while he was doing
everything else,

touching wherever
he wanted to touch.

I just used to think, "Just hurry up
that bit of the service,"

so I could come out of the room.

But then I knew I had to
go back in the room.

You know, I never looked up,

I never said to him, "Don't,"
because I knew he could.

I think paedophiles in general,

but especially Jimmy Savile,

he had a sort of instinct
for vulnerability.

I think all paedophiles know.

I think they all know,
they're so clever.

I was really backward as a child.

My grandad was the one who'd come
and fight for me in school.

Fight for me when teachers would hit
my head off a wall and things,

he would be the one
to come and fight for me.

So it was so confusing,
because that person

who set me up for everything
was also my saviour.

All wrapped into one person.

I have lovely memories
of my grandad,

which everybody else
really struggles with,

because he took time out with me...
a lot.

Now, I know now
why he took his time out,

but if I'm to make that person
a whole one person,

then I'm really in the trouble,
because I've got no...

Where does your nice bit ever be?

And you can't do that,

you can't have a whole childhood
of horrible stuff.

So I take the good bits out
because it's easier to do that.

I think... I understand perfectly
what you mean,

and I feel as though it's OK
to have the nice bits. Yeah.

You've got to take something
somewhere.

Even people who do evil things
do good things from time to time.

Yeah. It doesn't make them
good people. Yeah.

I grapple with what
Jimmy Savile did -

he molested, raped, abused
hundreds of people -

and at the same time, he was someone
who, when he was alive,

I called a friend,
which I still struggle with.

Do you feel like you were groomed?

I think "groomed"
is maybe too big a word

for what he did to me,
because, um...

..he didn't abuse me,
he didn't abuse...

But mentally groomed,
mentally given...

He mugged you off by giving you
what he wanted to give you,

and did you believe
what he gave you?

I believed parts of it.
I thought he was a...

I thought he was
an enigmatic person,

that he had a secretive...
I knew there was a secret there,

I just didn't know
exactly what the secret was.

And then I feel a bit ashamed,
now knowing what we know.

I feel as though, um...

You didn't do the right thing.
Well, I don't...

I want to stand up and say
that I don't really regret that,

in the sense that I don't want

to say that I've anything
to feel ashamed of,

in a sense, because...
But you haven't, have you?

..I didn't see anything.

I accept that I was one
of many people who failed

to see what he was about.
How did you fail to see that?

Because even then,
you looked at him, you smelt him.

His mannerisms, to me,
were all really obvious.

Perhaps that's just because
you know. Yeah.

It's like they say about quizzes -

it's only obvious
if you know the answer. Yeah.

What are you doing here?

Straight punter!

Boring.

Don't do booze, don't do drugs,

don't do none of them foolish things
that I see on your programmes.

However, I suppose it's nice to do

somebody that's a bit straight
for a change.

Yeah. You'll have your work cut out
being interesting.

Yeah. No, I know... Do you really
regard yourself as normal?

No. I regard myself as odd. Yeah.
I think I'm odd.

It's sometimes said that monsters
don't get close to children -

nice men do.

The altar. That's the alter there.
Why do you call it the altar?

Because I go to sleep in it
and I smile

and it's nice to be there. Yeah.

That doesn't sound like an altar
to me.

It just sounds like one to me.
Really? Yes.

Now we know the truth about Jimmy
Savile, it all seems so clear.

Give 'em a wave, I want to see...
No, no, in a minute. Why?

I'll tell you
when to give them a wave.

Why can't we give them a wave now?

Leave it to me.
Instinct tells me when to carry on.

I am the archetypal carry-er on-er.

We know how we're doing.

But in his time, he charmed royalty
and prime ministers,

and millions of us
who listened to him on the radio

and watched him on TV.

Cheers. That's really it.
Have we forgotten anything?

Jangle, jangle,
jewellery, jewellery.

JIMMY CHUCKLES

Excellent.

And so, to understand his crimes,

we should also remember
how we were beguiled.