All language subtitles for Louis.Theroux.The.Night.In.Question.2019.HDTV.x264-PLUTONiUM

This programme contains scenes which
some viewers may find upsetting,

and some strong language
from the start.

I get woken by her slapping me, and
she said we shouldn't have had sex,

and her friends shouldn't find out.
And at around...

..4pm, 5pm, she sent me
a text message saying,

"Saif, you're a piece of shit."

A few days later, I found out
that she's accusing me of rape.

I was making a documentary
about young men

accused of sexual assault
on American campuses.

Are you going to apologise
to the victim?

There are a lot of guys
who have been told

that they're the best and that
they can have whatever they want,

and I think the idea that a woman
might not want to sleep with them

can be kind of jarring.

Recent years have seen a huge
increase in reported cases

of sexual violence in universities.

CHANTING

There is also now a community
that believes there's

been an overreaction that tramples
on due process.

I don't know what accounts for
this moral hysteria,

but I think Yale is fully in the
grip of it

and I think that their procedures
are an obscene joke.

For six months, I'd followed a
young man called Saif Khan

through his university
investigation,

attempting to piece together
his story

and trying to figure out
where the truth lay.

It sounds like you want everyone
to believe you.

Not everyone.

Which...that's just not realistic.

Of course, but we aren't...

..entertaining the concept that
she could have lied.

INDISTINCT

A statement on confidentiality,
a timely warning, and the letter.

I was with Saif and a lawyer who is
advising him - Margaret Valois.

Here.

That's the...Department of Education
one.

In 2015, while at Yale, Saif was
accused of raping a fellow student.

Suspended from campus,
he was prosecuted

but found not guilty in a
criminal trial.

Tell me where you'd like to start.

Sure. So...

I mean, Yale responded on the 21st.

More than two years on,

he was awaiting the outcome of a
university Title IX investigation

into the same incident before he
could resume his studies.

So, Margaret, there is now a Title
IX in process, is that correct?

Yes. At Yale.

Where is Saif at right now?

He's in the same place he was in
November of 2015.

It's just like he's stuck
at day one.

Now, of course, there has been
a criminal trial,

and obviously things happened there
and he was acquitted of all charges.

But as far as the campus
investigation goes,

we don't have any further
information

that they're sharing with us since
the day he was suspended.

A neuroscience major,
Saif's life changed

due to events on October
31st, 2015.

Many of the details of that
night are disputed.

What is agreed is that Saif and a
female fellow student

both attended a Halloween party,
then met up at a concert,

eventually spending the
night together.

The following morning,

she told friends she'd been
sexually assaulted.

The alleged victim had not agreed
to speak to me, but I'd read police

notes of interviews with her
and other witnesses.

At a house rented by
the production,

I asked Saif about the
night in question.

Yale, as I understand it,

follows a policy of clear and
continuing unambiguous consent. Yes.

I mean, are you on board with that?

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's my version of events.

That's how things happened.

So, around ten o'clock,

I think she arrived with some
friends at the party

and, in her version, I think,

she says she had a couple of strong
drinks

and then some sips or some shots
of an unidentified liquor.

I think she also said she had two
glasses of white wine

and was beginning to feel
quite intoxicated.

I never witnessed her
drinking anything...

..so, I guess, I'll take her word
for what she drank.

We move things onto...
We were talking at the YSO show,

the Yale Symphony Orchestra event.

Her allegation is, at this point,
she's really quite drunk. Mm-hm.

And it's inside that she vomits
for the first time.

So we were sitting down,
we were flirting,

and then, out of the blue, she,
to the side, just, you know,

in the alleyway, she vomited.

Was it your impression that she was
drunk at this point? No, no.

She looked just like any other
person, just buzzed,

just enjoying themselves.

She was... She was normal.

And then, a little after
midnight, I think...

Quite a while after midnight.

..you arrive back at the dorm.

Yeah. I opened her door
and she said, "Saif."

And she gave me this look, as
if, expecting, and a tilted head.

And so I was like "Yeah?"

And she was like, "Do you
want to come with me?"

I just said, "Sure."

And so we went into her room.

At this point in her account,
it's blurry.

She alleges she was extremely drunk.

She vomited again and more or
less collapsed on the bed.

And then, in the night, was aware of
you on top of her,

kind of manhandling her, with her
head hanging off the bed.

And then, the next morning, awoke
to find two used condoms,

and the feeling of having, you
know, kind of, had sex.

She had the impression
she'd been violated.

What happened in my recollection
is that she started

taking her clothes off,

we were getting intimate, and so it
led towards me taking my pants off.

and she started giving me oral sex.

At one point, she asked me
what I really liked

and I said I liked going deep.

And so she said she
hadn't tried that,

and so she...

..tried to take me in deeper.

She gagged and...

..to the side, towards the door,
she vomited again.

And so...

..we clean up the mess, I took off
my condom, threw it to the corner.

She grabbed a white towel
to go shower.

I'm on the couch and my long term

open-relationship girlfriend
called me.

We talk almost every night and...

..the conversation went on for
about two and a half hours.

Two and a half hours,
that's a long time.

So she was in the bathroom for some
of it, then she was on the bed.

What was she doing?

Had she fallen asleep?

I don't recall because it was dark,
so I didn't really know.

You come off the call, what happens?

She woke up, saying,
"Hey, come cuddle with me."

And so I went to the bed.

She got on top of me

and, at that moment, I'd be generous
to say if I lasted 20, 25 seconds,

and so I just went to sleep.

I was just dead tired.

But a few days later, I found out
that she is accusing me of rape.

In your recollection, she was
with it, conscious,

fully consenting and not
incapacitated?

Yes.

Who wants to win a T-shirt?
CROWD CHEERS

Right there, come on up, come on up.

I need one more, right over here,
somewhere right over there.

Right there. Come on down.

Let's give these two a big, big
round of applause.

Come on, give it up.

So, here's the deal.

You're on a date. OK.

Date's going so well, you want to
give your partner a kiss.

You like this, all right, very good.

So...

How do you know when it's the right
time to make your move?

For freshmen throughout the US,
the start of the school year

involves orientation
classes on sexual consent.

CHANTING

LAUGHTER

Now, Joey, once you get the look,

do most people stop and say,
"May I kiss you?"

Or do most people just go for it?

What do you think most people do?

Probably go for it.

All right, let's see what
the room thinks.

ALL: Go for it.

Policies on consent vary,
but most require each sex act

to be clearly agreed to.

For instance, why don't we just ask,

"Can I kiss you?" - instead of
going for it?

If you agree with that, say,
"Yes, I do."

ALL: Yes, I do.

To investigate allegations
of misconduct

and take disciplinary measures,

colleges have special Title IX
administrators,

so named after the federal law

against sexual discrimination
in education.

I'm Louis. Nice to meet you, Jordan.

Jordan Draper is Title IX
coordinator

at the College of New Jersey.

These cases are not easy.
They're very hard.

There's a lot of grey.

There is this pressure of hook-up
culture.

There's pressure or involvement
of alcohol,

and it's all this kind of grey,
nuanced area

that makes it...

..unclear for students to be able
to really understand,

"Does this person want to engage
in this activity?"

And those are the cases that we -
myself and my colleagues -

are kind of seeing across college
campuses.

So is it the case that there
could be an incident that would not

meet a criminal standard
of being a sexual assault,

but that in a Title IX sense
would be a sexual assault?

Yes, absolutely... That's correct?

..and that's because of the
standard, so to...

Information to show beyond
a reasonable doubt that something

happened compared to more likely
than not is just drastic.

You need a lot less information
for the college process and again

that's because you're just removing
somebody, potentially,

from your institution
as opposed to jail.

But recently, under President Trump,
there has been pushback amid claims

the Title IX process is Kafkaesque
and overreaching.

The truth is that the system
established by the prior

administration has failed
too many students.

With the heavy hand of Washington
tipping the balance of her scale,

the sad reality is that Lady Justice

is not blind on campuses today.

Many young men found responsible
for sexual assault see themselves

as victims of a new politically
correct culture.

Saif's case had become
something of a cause celebre.

When we'd spoken, he'd been at pains
to stress what he saw

as the unfairness of his treatment.

This letter says that I'm suspended
immediately

and this letter says that I'm
being...

..you know, "investigated for sexual
misconduct

"by the university-wide committee."

So I went to the dean's office.

They told me I have 30 minutes to
pack up and leave,

and so I went to my room hurriedly.

And I said...

.."Fuck".

And I...started realising....

..like, wow, this...

..this is huge, that-that...
you know, that it's rape.

So you've been suspended...

..ever since?

Yeah. You know...

I-I've lost a lot.

HE SIGHS DEEPLY

I'm also very tired.

WHISPERING: Very tired.

HE SNIFFS

TEARFULLY: Just really tired.

HE SOBS

Saif's view of himself as a victim
of a cruel injustice was apparent

and yet it was also worth
recalling that for years

it had been the voices of female
victims

that had been largely unheard.

One of the early advocates
for more awareness of assault

was a young student at Columbia
University who made an allegation

against a fellow student in 2013.

Hi, Emma? Hi!

Louis. Nice to meet you.

Emma Sulkowicz is now an artist
working in New York.

Emma's best known work
remains a senior thesis project

which involved carrying
a mattress around campus.

Normally, when I give talks,
I just show this photo.

Was it your actual mattress
that you slept on

on the night in question?

No. But it was the same kind?

Yeah, yeah.

These are the rules of engagement...

..for myself to follow.

"Whenever I'm on campus property,

"I must have the mattress with me."

Then it says, "If my rapist is
suspended from school

"for any reason, I will not perform
during his leave.

"The performance ends if the
administration

"expels either my rapist or me."

For me, it was a thing that I lived
through for nine months.

Um...

This piece has affected
every aspect of my life.

Six months after the incident,
Emma met with an ex-girlfriend

of the same man,

who also alleged he'd been abusive,

and decided to go public.

The media picked up on the story

and copycat protests sprang
up on campuses across the country.

There was this guy... Mm-hmm.

..who had been a friend of yours,
correct?

Yeah. I invited him back to my room

because that was like our rapport
at that point.

Um...

And we were having consensual
sex, until...

..he started being violent in ways
that I wasn't comfortable with

and I asked him to stop
and he didn't.

His account of the night, you know,
differs from yours

and he says that you had
consensual sex.

Yeah, he has a really graphic...

..fantasy of what happened that
night.

So the conclusion of the Columbia
investigation

was that he was not responsible...
Mm-hmm.

..for any act of sexual misconduct
against you. Right.

You feel extremely ill-used
by Columbia, right?

Yeah.

The people on the panel
were so uneducated about rape.

Like, I was anally raped and
one of the people on the panel

was like, "I don't understand
how he could anally rape you

"if he didn't have lube."

And it's like she had this, like,
idea that rapists have,

like, rape lube or some shit like
that.

Like, she just didn't... I was
like, "Well, it's an act of force",

right? Like, that's the whole point
of why...it's, like,

painful and mean and rape, right?

But she didn't understand that.

So, it was like these were the
people who were deciding

everyone's fate, right?

Um...

It was a total mess.

So, as a result of the
performance...

..this guy sued the university
under Title IX,

claiming that he was discriminated
against,

and I suppose it's fair to say he
regards himself

as the real victim in all of this.
Mm-hmm.

I mean, I really just wanted him
to apologise,

and I still believe this,

like, if he had just been like,
"I'm so sorry I did that",

and, like, "I understand how
I should've listened to you",

you know, this would be such a
different story.

It would have ended there? Mm-hmm.

But... Do you think, then...?

Because, obviously, rape is a...

..you know...

..arguably the worst crime, or
one of the worst crimes, and...

So "sorry" seems quite weak.

You know "sorry I raped you"
seems rather weak, doesn't it?

I think a big reason why people

try and avoid being called rapists

is that they...

..know this label's going to follow
them for the rest of their life.

Right? Like...

"That man's a rapist", right?

That's, like, so final.

If we had a society in which people
could, like, be a rapist

but then change and get better,
and learn from it and stop

being a rapist, people
would be so much more willing

to change themselves, reform.

So, I wish he could have just
been like,

"Yeah, I did something bad
and I'm going to learn from that."

Emma's wish for a view of rape
that did not overly stigmatise

perpetrators, as strange
as it sounded, was a logical

consequence of the reality
of how rape often takes place.

But assaults of this type, during
sex that was until then consensual,

are also the kind of cases police
and prosecutors struggle with.

When Emma went to the police
18 months afterwards,

they did not pursue it.

Saif's case, involving someone
he did not know well,

had the hallmarks of being more
prosecutable, but at trial,

with the help of some anonymous
financial backers, he'd been able

to afford the services of one
of Connecticut's

pre-eminent defence attorneys -

Norm Pattis.

Hi. Norm? Yes. Louis.
Hey, Louis, nice to meet you.

Can I come in?
Of course you can, please.

How you doing?
Very well, how are you?

Norm was also helping advise Saif
on his Title IX process.

How's it going?

They agreed to meet me
in his offices in New Haven.

And so here we are.

So many of these sexual misconduct
cases seem to hinge on situations

involving alcohol, right? And quite
often you have a young woman

who doesn't remember a great deal
of what happened.

I think that, in general,
the university will focus, I think,

on whether Mr Khan knew,
or should have known,

that she'd had so much to drink

that any consent she gave
was compromised.

I don't doubt that she was feeling
the effects of the liquor,

but to suggest that she was comatose
or unable to know what was going

on around her, um, I don't buy it.

I mean, I-I saw her testify,
I saw the video.

Um...

I just don't buy it.

At trial, the prosecution maintained
that the alleged victim,

who testified she rarely drank,

was incapacitated on the night.

They introduced CCTV footage,

which they argued
showed her stumbling.

When you play that video in
real time,

what you'd see is her smiling,

on his arm,
as they walked across campus.

They weren't zigzagging.
He wasn't holding her up.

She wasn't falling over.

The question I asked at some point
is, "Didn't it look like a couple

"of young lovers crossing campus?"

This young woman has already spent
three days on the witness stand

and a jury of ordinary people
in Connecticut concluded

that she was not credible.

The jury came back "not guilty"
very, very quickly.

I don't know what accounts
for this moral hysteria, but I think

Yale is fully in the grip of it

and I think that their procedures
are an obscene joke.

So, Norm, you don't buy the idea
that there is a category of

sexual misconduct that falls short
of being a criminal act,

but which, nevertheless,
universities should not tolerate?

No, there may be, I just don't think
that it is at all applicable

in Mr Khan's case. What went
on in that room was not rape.

It was not non-consensual sex.

It was a young woman who
had a little too much to drink...

..who woke up with buyer's regret.

I should have possibly stayed put
and just cuddled with her,

yet I chose at that moment to run
away from that

and just go to the couch
and sleep there.

I should have had breakfast
with her in the morning.

There were a lot of things
that I could have done to not

hurt her feelings,

but I did not violate her rights.

I did not violate her body
or her...her autonomy.

I did not rape her.

For his supporters, part of the
appeal of Saif's case

was his embodiment of an aspect
of the American dream.

He'd been born to Afghan parents
in a refugee camp in Pakistan.

Later moving to the Middle East.

Coming to America on his own,
on a scholarship, aged 18.

I wondered whether his life journey,
from a traditional background

to an America still figuring
out its sexual mores,

might provide any clues as to what
had happened.

This is my first time in New York.

Wow. That must have been exciting.

There was a lot for me to catch up
on,

to understand how to adjust
culturally.

It was the first time I had really
eaten with a fork and a knife.

It was the first time I had slept
on a raised bed.

Did America represent something
for you, when you came?

A lot of things.

It represented...

..might.

It represented freedom.

Opportunity, as well?

Opportunity to-to make it big.

You were aware that it could
potentially lead to a career...

Yeah. ..and an income and status?

I mean, that's the American dream.

I'm curious whether the culture
in the world you came from,

you were aware of it
being more conservative... Mm-hmm.

..maybe more repressive,

and that, in coming to America,
that that would afford you,

also, sort of social and romantic
opportunities.

Sure. There was definitely...

..piqued interest from a lot
of people,

oftentimes relating to my background

and my ethnicity, and it seemed cool

for people to hang out with me
or hook up with me

based on who I was,

and that was often the case
at Yale as well.

And I was taking...benefit of that.

You mentioned when we first
spoke that you enjoyed,

uh, deep-throating women.

Where did that come from?

Is that something you'd seen
in pornography?

I don't... How had you acquired
that taste?

I don't know where it came from,
but...

..I do like...

..you know, trying to figure out
what I enjoy,

what I don't enjoy, you know.

At the end of the day, it's about...

..what do the two people want,

what do they enjoy?

On the night in question,
she asked you what you liked,

but I don't recall you asking...

..what she liked.

That is one of the...regrets
that I have.

Um...

It actually goes against my
philosophy, it goes against,

because, usually, I'm focused on the
other person, focused on...

..helping them achieve what
they want.

So you're saying that was
out of character for you? Yeah.

With an increasing number of male
students found responsible

for sexual misconduct,
many of them are finding redress

in an unlikely form,

by suing their universities
under the same law

that was used to prevent sexual
assault - Title IX.

They say they are experiencing
discrimination as men

and large pay-outs have been
awarded.

Hi. Will? Yes. Louis.
Nice to meet you.

Do you mind if I come in? Yes.

Will Norris had been studying
mechanical engineering

at CU Boulder, when, in 2016,

a friend and fellow student accused
him

of two instances of sexual
misconduct.

So this is the war room,
if you like?

This is my war room.

This is the trial, motions,
mediation...

The original criminal trial? Yes.

At trial, he'd been
found not guilty,

but a Title IX investigation

determined he was responsible for
one of the two incidents.

These are all files that are related
to the Title IX proceeding.

I get the sense, Karen,
you've been quite involved in this.

Yes, I have. In Will's case. I have.

I met him with his mother, Karen,
a retired federal prosecutor,

at her house in San Antonio, Texas.

The young woman in question,
how well...

..did you know her? You were close
friends, would you say?

We were like best friends.

We hung out all the time,
we watched movies together.

You know, we would go on hikes.

We...just, we hung out a lot.

I wasn't aware there was a situation

until one day in January of 2016,

when she says,
"You know you raped me."

Back the summer before,
we had kind of...

We had hooked up, we had started
to have sex, but stopped.

I have no idea if she has been
drinking, how much she had drank,

I just don't know. I just don't feel
comfortable doing it.

I don't want to do this any more.

So you stopped. So I stopped.

So I tell her, "No, I don't want...
We can't do this."

And she says, "Yeah, you're right."

Now, in the course of this, a second
incident came into the mix.

She said this other event happened

in, like, January or February
of 2014.

And... In which I, like, something
like that

I held her down and...tried
to put my hand in her pants.

"Pinned her...both arms above her
head." Right.

I think, at a time when you'd been
making out

and she possibly had her top off.

She gave several different
statements about this

and, in the first statement that she
gave to the detective,

she did not say she
had her shirt off.

I... What's your version?

I remember this...that night. Um...

We started, like, kind of playing
around, like, kind of tickling

each other, where, in the course
of that, like,

after, like, she keeps
poking me, I keep poking her,

I ended up grabbing her and pushing
her hands down,

which is what she was saying,
like, I pinned her hands down

on top of her head -
or over her head.

And...so, I mean, we're
continuing to kiss.

Well, at that point, I take one
of my hands off and I go to make

a move and she tells me,
"No, don't do that."

I said "OK".

So I stopped.

We continued to kind of kiss
throughout the rest of the night,

and, you know, we talk,
and then eventually she leaves.

And what is not in dispute

is that, following that incident...

..for the next 18 months,
you continued to be close friends.

Yes.

So the result of the
Title IX investigation,

how did they find? So, they found
that I was not responsible

for any sort of wrongdoing with
regards to the July incident,

where she came over to my house.

The 20 seconds of...sex? Yeah.

They basically found I had done
nothing wrong. As I understood,

they said, "Well, she may have been
incapacitated,

"but you would not necessarily have
known that."

But then there was the second part.
Right.

And the second part was stating
that this allegation in 2014 -

that I was responsible
for that other incident...

That was the pinning,
wrestling incident.

Right. They found against you,
in fact. Yes, they did.

So you were suspended for about 18
months. Yes.

And then, at which point,

what would happen,
you could be readmitted?

I could apply to come back,

but I would have to admit wrongdoing

and attend counselling
for the wrongdoing,

and that's just something
I wasn't willing to do

because I didn't do anything wrong.

There's a lot of grey area in here
and it's very difficult to sort out,

and I think some of it is taking
responsibility for your own actions,

if you got drunk and you maybe
had sex with somebody

that you wouldn't have otherwise
had sex with,

that doesn't mean that person
assaulted you.

Anybody who makes an allegation
like this absolutely deserves

to have it investigated fully -

no question.

The problem comes in with
presumptions that are made.

And so...sometimes the courts
have called it a pro-victim bias,

that a university will
have in these investigations,

and the problem with that is
that the second you use the word

"victim", you've made an assumption

about the veracity of the
allegation,

and, if you make that assumption
at the beginning,

your investigation will be tainted.

As I understand it now...

..you've turned the tables somewhat

and brought your own suit
against the university.

Is that right? That's correct.

I'd like to get my degree...

..that's a big part of it.

And then I'd like to...

..get some of the money back
that my family had to spend on this.

It's not just, you know,
a money dispute.

It's somebody's reputation,

it's somebody's career,
their education.

It's their life, going forward,

and so you need to have a good
quantum of evidence

before you hold someone accountable.

Will's case was difficult
to figure out.

Without speaking to his alleged
victim, I couldn't know for certain,

but, on the face of it, his
18-month suspension seemed harsh.

I was with Saif.

Hey, Louis. How's it going?

His investigation was still
ongoing, but Yale had allowed him

back to continue his studies -
pending the outcome.

I'd like to catch up with
you properly,

but I think we're going to do it in
your room.

I don't have a room.

What do you mean?

So, I've been e-mailing the
university for months now,

saying, you know, I want to come
back and I...

You know, I need housing,
food, classes,

and they're telling me that there's
no available housing.

Can you swipe me in, please? Yeah.
Thank you.

But since I'd last seen him, there
had been a strange development.

I'd had a call from the man who
first put me in touch with Saif.

They'd volunteered together at a
group called Face, that advocates

for students who feel
they've been wrongly accused

of sexual misconduct.

Hi. Jonathan? Yes. Louis. How are
you doing? Nice to meet you.

Can we come in? Sure.

Jonathan Andrews had also been the
subject of sexual assault

allegations and he'd helped Saif
during his trial.

That would be great,
I'd love a coffee.

They'd become close.

But since then, he'd left Face
and he and Saif had fallen out.

Thank you.

He was now making
some disturbing claims.

His intent, especially during
the trial,

was a lot more worrying,

and that's more telling
of what may have happened

than anything else, you know.
For example...

..he had me...

Well, he thought he had me
spy on her.

The alleged victim? Yes.

Of the...of the incident?

Yes.

He gave me her Snapchat information

and he wanted me to send her
Snapchats.

Was this during the trial?

Yes, it was.

So you've written "Send last name."

He's called Big Poppa. Yeah.

So he's texted you the last
name of the alleged victim. Right.

You've written, "Added me."

I was lying about her adding me
on Snapchat.

He's written, "Work your magic.
I know you can do this."

Meaning what?

Get to her and talk to her,
and find out what she was doing.

Get in her head in some way? Yeah.

"Jon, this is one of those
things..."

HE READS THE MESSAGES

So, uh, is he...

..suggesting that you record
her messages?

Yes. Without her knowing.

A lot of talk about Harry Potter.

Extended metaphors.

He, at one point, compared me to
Snape to his Dumbledore.

LOUIS SIGHS DEEPLY

So what was the nature
of your relationship?

SCOFFING: Um...

It's really weird to describe.

We spoke 24/7, almost...

When we weren't texting each other,
we were on the phone almost
constantly.

Sometimes nine hours a day
on the phone.

Started to turn into things like
sexting and videos, pornography.

It always had to be something
that was, um...

..humiliating for him to
get off to it.

How do you know that?

Because he had me pick
them out for him.

He just told me what he wanted
and I would search for it.

He dominated my life.

Do you think he was sexually
attracted to you?

No, I don't. Um...

And we did end up having a threesome

with someone else when we were in
DC.

With another...man? Woman.

He was rough with both of us.

Things like forcing her to
drink alcohol.

He...

..made me...

Made her penetrate me with...

..a sex toy.

And, at one point, I guess I had
been so intoxicated that I passed
out.

She and I had both at points
said "no" and "stop".

And she had said her safe word,
I didn't have the luxury

of having one, but she did.

For me, it was really an
uncomfortable experience all around.

Are you OK? Yeah.

What are you thinking about?

It definitely makes me feel
very guilty.

You know, did you enable this
person...

..to go back to Yale?

Because if I hadn't helped him
write the letter

asking for his suspension to be
lifted,

he wouldn't be allowed back in a few
days.

But he is allowed back,
and that's because of me.

Am I right in thinking that...

..you spoke to him, or you
communicated around the time

that I first interviewed him?

That's correct. And did he give any
feedback on that?

He was very pleased with himself.

Well, he was in-between laughs,
he was like, "Oh, yeah, I cried,

"and he's really sold
on that." And he...

He does that a lot -
he cries for people.

To create an effect? Yeah.

And I guess he did that with you.

So, what was his attitude
to making the programme?

He made me watch all of
your documentaries, actually,

and do write-ups of all of them.

Your mannerisms and how
you interviewed people.

WHISPERING: That's pretty weird.
Yeah, it was.

What was the idea?

He didn't trust you.

If he was so mistrustful, why did he
agree to do the documentary?

It was an opportunity for him
to spin his story.

This documentary was going
to be his vindication.

Jonathan's allegation about his
discomfort during a three-way

was hard to process.

Later, I heard from his ex
colleagues at Face that he'd made

other unsubstantiated claims about
people there.

Still, the screen grabs of
the messages directing Jonathan

to contact the alleged victim,

if real, suggested Saif was a much
more calculating figure

than he'd portrayed to me.

In the meantime, Saif had also
forwarded me

a transcript of his trial.

I'd been struck by the testimony
of witnesses who said they'd seen

the alleged victim vomiting.

Back at Yale, with the cloud
of suspicion hanging over him,

Saif had been assigned accommodation
at a hotel off campus.

You were kind enough to forward some
of the trial transcripts...

Yes.

..which I took a look at.

My sense is that these cases are
incredibly difficult and I think

I'm trying to explore
the possibility that there

are multiple narratives
that fit the facts.

You have...

..a very plausible,

on the face of it, scenario in which
a young woman who's very

light-framed drinks too much.

Her friend, who she's drinking
alongside,

drinks about the same amount... How
do you know she's light-framed?

Well, she's about 120lbs.

Oh, it was in the trial.
It was in the transcript.

Her friend has to be hospitalised,
who she's drinking alongside,

because she gets alcohol
poisoning drinking

more or less the same drinks.

It wasn't that alcohol poisoning.

It was she had to be hospitalised
because she was out of it.

We don't know why.

Well, then vomits at least twice.
That's hearsay and conjecture to say

they're of similar size,
they drank the same stuff.

There were at least three witnesses

that testified to the idea that,
um... OK, uh...

..the alleged victim
was incapacitated, right?

Billions of people believe
in specific gods -

does that make them right or
correct? And she vomited.

You were next to her when she
vomited at the auditorium...

Yes. ..on her dress.

But, in other words,
that's a plausible scenario.

And, in fact, it's the most common
scenario in which this type

of alleged campus assault
takes place, in which a young woman

drinks far too much and
becomes blackout drunk.

I guess the main contention
in this argument

is the idea that...

..we aren't entertaining the concept
that she could have lied.

She lied about being drunk?

It's like we are somehow going down
this intellectual debate,

where we're clearly disregarding
evidence.

And...

And only conjecturing based on...

Well, let's figure out... Well, the
vomit isn't evidence?

The three witnesses say she was
really drunk isn't evidence?

The fact that people saw her
drinking these drinks

and that her friend had to be
hospitalised for alcohol -

that's not evidence?

I don't know the reason
for her vomiting

and you're right that oftentimes
it is because of alcohol.

But she wasn't as drunk as...

..she's saying.

Will you come over here as
well, Saif, if you're comfortable?

Course.

So I need to talk to you about
something else that's come up.

Of course.

Um...

Someone reached out to us,

someone from Face,
called Jonathan Andrews.

Oh, I see. OK.

Do you know who I mean?
Yeah. He has been removed from Face.

Yes, he mentioned that. OK.

He made allegations about you that
I...

I think it's only fair to put to
you. Mm-hm.

I guess the most concrete one
and the one that therefore

I should put to you first
is that he...that you asked him

to friend the alleged victim
on social media during the trial.

No.

That's crazy. Does that does that
ring any bells with you?

No.

OK, here's the...

Does any of that look familiar?

OK, what...?

What else?

Well, so how do you respond
to that one?

He has this app on his Samsung
phone

where he edits text messages.

So you're saying that's not real?

Yeah, I deny that.

It's not my messages.

OK. He characterised

your relationship as being almost...

I don't know if romantic is the
term,

but a kind of quasi-sexual
relationship.

But I am into women.

He is a man.

He contends that on one occasion

you took part in a three-way sexual
session,

the two of you plus a woman,
and that it was, I guess, abusive

and in certain respects
not consensual.

SCOFFING: OK.

So what do I say to that?

Like, why do I have to confirm

or deny, like, rumours or, like,
allegations?

It's not... This is not a court.
This is...

I mean, obviously I deny
that I've had that sort

of relationship with him.

It's like...the kid is crazy.

So there was no three-way?

I did not have sexual relationships
with John.

I don't hear you denying
the three-way.

I don't know why you're focused
on that. Well, because he alleged

that it was abusive and not
in certain respects consensual.

I deny that.

I deny that that happened.

I guess the big picture
is that he's characterising

you as a cold-blooded master
strategist...

..who is deeply manipulative
and totally lacking in compassion.

Uh, how does one respond to that?

Because, like, that's not true.

That's fascinating. Manipulative
in what sense?

Stage managing your encounters
with us, I guess.

Crying on your own will,
more or less, in a fake way,

showing emotion.

It's actually really...

I don't know how one would do that.

Cry on command?

Yeah, I mean, like, onions.

Actors can do it.

Huh? Actors can do it.

Oh, OK.

I didn't know that.

I thought they did like some sort
of, like, onion or, like, pinch

themselves or, like, I don't know.

Help me understand what's
going on here.

I don't have to spend energy or
time trying to disprove

what he's saying or accusing.

It's not my job to prove
my innocence.

It's just not... Maybe...

Maybe that is what's wrong with me
in the sense that I do care about,

like, you know, others'
opinion of me.

But I don't go out of my way
to quash that.

I just simply let the truth
surface on its own.

It had been an uncomfortable
exchange.

I had this strong feeling that Saif
was being tactical and not

telling me everything he knew.

But perhaps most striking
was the steeliness

with which he'd handled
my questioning -

his almost unshakable composure.

What crime are we describing
happening in the scene?

What crime is being set
up in that moment? Just yell it out.

I heard rape and sexual assault.

Why would this be a rape
or sexual assault

by the way I described it?

Raise your hand, give me reasons,
all the way back there. Yes.

One of the changes of recent years
is a broader understanding

of what rape and sexual
assault can look like.

Do not do these things.

The issue has proved controversial,

some suggesting the new rules set
unrealistic standards of consent,

others seeing it simply as a long
overdue recognition of how rape

often takes place.

Some of you are looking at me,
going, "But, Mike, if I do just go
for it,

"they do have a choice to stop me."

That's not called a choice.

That's called self-defence.

It's messed up.

Yale has been an epicentre
of the debate.

In the last few years, a fraternity
there called Delta Kappa Epsilon

or Deke has featured in ten
allegations of sexual misconduct.

One victim was Molly Johnson.

She'd agreed to speak publicly
for the first time.

Thank you for agreeing to do this,
by the way.

I really appreciate it.

How are you feeling? I'm feeling OK.

I'm just a bit nervous. Yeah.

It's just a lot to talk about.
Sure.

Molly moved to the UK to work
with a law firm representing women

who have experienced harassment
and abuse.

Her boss Jeff was sitting
in for moral support.

What year was this? 2014. '14?

Yeah, this was...
Those are your parents.

Yeah, that's my mom, Venetia.
That's my dad, Tom.

There's me.

And then this is my brother, Matt.

That's lovely.

Yeah, that was right
when I got there.

So what was your impression
and experience in the first few

semesters at Yale? I loved it.

I felt more at home than I think
I ever really had.

I was surrounded by really nerdy
people, so I think

that was particularly exciting,
to finally feel like talking

about books all the time wasn't
really a weird thing to do.

Were you active? Did you have
an active social life and lots of

friends and going out?
What kind of...?

Yeah, no, I like to think I had a
good number of friends.

We went to a lot of the football
games.

Didn't really go out that often,

but, you know, enjoyed going out
with friends and never

really went to fraternities.

They have parties at the
fraternities -

is that partly what they're known
for?

That's, I think, basically
entirely what they're known for.

In 2016, Molly was in her third year
at Yale and not long

out of a two-year relationship.

With a friend, she went to a

Christmas party at the Deke frat
house.

Are you OK talking about this,

what happened next? Mm-hm.

I'll just have some coffee.

You go into his room and you're

thinking at this point he's a little
pushy,

but it feels as though it's more or
less within acceptable social norms.

Yeah. I mean, there were no red
flags had come up in my mind

at that point.

I think you... Which, something I
didn't realise before is that,

once you're in those situations,

you do feel
like you have to do certain things.

And so, for example, I've had
multiple people tell me

that they feel like, if they go into
a guy's room,

they feel like they have to give
him a blowjob

and so I did that, thinking
that it would be done,

and he then proceeded to keep asking
to have actual penetrative sex.

And I told him no, I didn't
want to do that.

We probably had that conversation
five, six times.

And he kept manoeuvring himself
so that he was on top of me,

and he is quite large.

Like, I'm pretty tall, but
he's significantly larger than me.

He kept being pushy

and finally I was like,
"OK, we can have sex, but only

"with a condom." And he was like,

"No, no, there's... There's
definitely not one in this house."

And I was like, "Well, OK, then, you
know, I'm not going to have sex

"with you, like, because this is
what I have set out."

And he continued kissing me,
and all of a sudden his penis

was inside of me -

and it was really shocking.

I think... Like I said, that was
what I felt

more than anything is that I just...

You know, you don't expect that
that's going to happen

when you've made your desires
pretty clear.

Was it the case that you were
fighting him off or was there

a point at which you more
or less gave up?

So I was trying to move
to avoid him penetrating me,

and was fighting that,

but, no, did I punch him in the
face? Of course not.

Would I ever punch someone in the
face? No.

I should reflect the fact
that he has maintained and probably

still maintains that...

..it was a consensual act.

I think a lot of people,
when they talk about these cases,

they are like, "Oh, you know,
they're so ambiguous.

"People aren't saying what they
want."

But I said what I wanted.

I said no. I made my constraints
very clear

and he went against them, so...

So then, the next morning,

you're attempting to process what's
happened, would that be...?

Yes, I went to class and I took
a quick shower, and I remember

like I was texting... Sorry.

Let me have a sip of coffee.

I was texting a few friends
at that point

and that's when I first
called my family.

I called my brother Matt and...

He said, "So you've been raped?"

And I was just like baulking.

That was the first time
that someone said that word to me.

I think it's a really scary
word to use.

But then once you realise
that, descriptively,

it matched what happened...

It's tough to not use it.

So what was the result
of their investigation?

They found that there was
an instance of sexual misconduct

and they suspended him.

He was responsible for...

They called penetration
without consent. Mm-hmm.

After he was removed from campus,

I felt like I could be a student
again.

That is part of the reason why
the suspension meant so much to me

because, every time I saw a large
man, I was...

..I would just like freeze up
because I thought it could be him.

I guess there are people who...

Maybe more old-fashioned people,

who take the view that,
"Oh, boys will be boys."

That's the phrase that gets used.

And we are attempting to legislate
and penalise

exuberant partying behaviour.

Do you think it makes sense
that there is a lower standard

of evidence for the Title IX
investigations

than there is for a criminal case?

They're very tough cases to prove,

given that they occur in such
private scenarios

and don't involve force oftentimes.

You almost have to have this
lower standard of evidence

because, you know, there...

I didn't come out of what happened
with, you know, a broken nose.

You know, I came out with, you know,
a broken sense of security.

Molly's account was compelling
and unsettling,

a striking example of the traumatic
effect of a sexual assault

that might not have been taken
seriously in a previous era.

In fact, though she'd reported
it to the police the day after,

and completed a rape kit,

it did not lead to charges
being brought.

Since Molly's case, the Deke frat
house has been closed down at Yale.

Her assailant returned to campus
once Molly graduated,

having served a 14-month suspension.

Meanwhile, on Saif's case,
more information had come to light.

The Yale Daily News had published
a story based

on Jonathan's allegations.

It quoted the woman involved
in the three-way.

She described being force fed
alcohol,

being hit with a paddle,
as she put it, "way too hard",

and having to use her safeword.

Based on the article,

Saif had been suspended again

and was no longer attending classes.

I visited him on the day he was due
to give testimony

in his original case in front of the
campus committee on sexual assault.

He was with his lawyer - Norm.

I was moved last night
by Mr Khan's optimism,

so I'm hoping it's redeemed today.

If you don't stand up...

..what's the point?

Let's go. Let's get it done.

With a moment to myself,

I reflected on where I'd got
to with Saif

and observed an attitude to sex

that was detached and transactional

to the point of being a little
chilly.

And there were aspects
of his version of events

that simply didn't add up.

It could still be weeks
before a verdict came down.

In the meantime, he would continue
in his state of limbo,

unable to study or stay on campus.

Hey, Louis. How'd it go?

Pretty good. A difficult day.

I saw five people struggle,
probably beyond their pay grade,

beyond their skill set,
to determine what happened here.

So this is the yellow brick
road - that's Oz -

and, somewhere behind the curtain,

somebody is hiding
and making a decision.

And it's never going to be
transparent to the public.

It was frustrating,
very frustrating.

I'm glad it's over.

It had been a long and strange
journey.

I'd heard that Saif's alleged victim
had testified via Skype.

I thought about everything
she must have been through

and alongside that was a sense
of perplexity at the figure of Saif.

The stamina he had shown

in weathering so much negative
attention

and his utter faith
in his own ability

to outsmart the allegations
against him.

Did you say that you read a poem?

Yeah, I started my opening
statement with a poem - Invictus.

Why did you do that?

They were good words that
communicated my feelings

and I first heard Obama say
them at Mandela's death.

I said, "In the fell clutch of
circumstance, I have not winced

"Nor cried aloud the bludgeoning
of chance.

"My head is bloody but unbowed.

"It matters not how straight..."

It is almost certain that

President Trump's Education
Secretary, Betsy De Vos,

will make changes to the federal
guidelines for how sexual assault

is investigated on US campuses...

..attempting to shore up the rights
of the accused,

requiring, among other things,

a higher standard of proof.

It's notable that some of
these changes

have received cross-party support.

I had come to see the system
as flawed but also necessary,

an all too human attempt
to recognise the rights of victims

and bring some safety to the most
intimate frontier of the bedroom.