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- I love it when you
pretentious types get it.
5
00:00:35,368 --> 00:00:38,705
It shows how much of a fuckin'
asshole that you really are.
6
00:00:38,772 --> 00:00:40,707
- Now you have no
friends on our side either,
7
00:00:40,774 --> 00:00:42,275
because you're a
stupid fuckin' cunt.
8
00:00:42,375 --> 00:00:43,676
So I hope you kill yourself.
9
00:00:45,211 --> 00:00:46,780
- [Taylor] I wonder what
her blood looks like.
10
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,049
I'd take her blood
on the streets,
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00:00:49,115 --> 00:00:51,284
then having to go to
jail for a few years.
12
00:00:56,056 --> 00:00:58,725
- I never heard that
term cancel culture
13
00:00:58,792 --> 00:01:00,860
until after I'd been
cancelled.
14
00:01:02,695 --> 00:01:04,731
- Hey bud, just want
to give you a heads up
15
00:01:04,798 --> 00:01:05,799
and warn you that your behavior
16
00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:06,800
is probably going to end
17
00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:09,569
in someone killing you
and your wife and child.
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00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:11,237
You are scum.
19
00:01:11,304 --> 00:01:12,305
Fuck you.
20
00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:13,573
Fuck your wife.
21
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,642
Fuck that baby in
the New York Times.
22
00:01:15,742 --> 00:01:17,243
Fuck off forever.
23
00:01:17,310 --> 00:01:18,611
Eat shit and die.
24
00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:26,119
(soft music)
25
00:01:30,657 --> 00:01:32,926
- [Monica] Imagine
waking up one morning
26
00:01:32,992 --> 00:01:33,993
with the whole world,
27
00:01:34,094 --> 00:01:37,564
suddenly knowing your name,
and talking about you.
28
00:01:39,432 --> 00:01:42,335
Not because you cured a disease,
29
00:01:42,435 --> 00:01:44,904
or saved your neighbor's
house from burning down.
30
00:01:46,272 --> 00:01:48,675
Everyone knows who you are,
31
00:01:48,775 --> 00:01:50,610
because your mistake,
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00:01:50,677 --> 00:01:53,613
your secret, has now
been made public.
33
00:01:54,447 --> 00:01:55,615
- [Reporter] Monica,
look over here!
34
00:01:55,682 --> 00:01:58,518
- [Monica] Trust me, I know a
little something about this.
35
00:01:58,618 --> 00:01:59,853
- [Reporter] Monica, Monica!
36
00:01:59,953 --> 00:02:01,855
Say something, Monica!
37
00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:07,293
- In 1998, I lost my
reputation,
38
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,329
and my dignity,
39
00:02:09,429 --> 00:02:11,865
and I almost lost my life.
40
00:02:11,965 --> 00:02:14,367
- If you are hazy on the
Monica Lewinsky story, at 22,
41
00:02:14,467 --> 00:02:16,002
she and President Clinton
began a relationship
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00:02:16,102 --> 00:02:18,338
that very long story short ended
43
00:02:18,438 --> 00:02:20,373
up with graphic details
being made public.
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00:02:20,473 --> 00:02:22,876
- I was branded as a tramp,
45
00:02:23,776 --> 00:02:25,311
tart,
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00:02:25,378 --> 00:02:26,880
slut,
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00:02:26,980 --> 00:02:27,780
whore,
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00:02:28,715 --> 00:02:29,849
bimbo.
49
00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:33,853
Overnight, I went from being
a completely private figure
50
00:02:33,953 --> 00:02:37,357
to a publicly humiliated
one worldwide.
51
00:02:37,457 --> 00:02:39,058
- Monica said at
one point today,
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00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:42,328
she is seeing a therapist
over her addiction to sex,
53
00:02:42,395 --> 00:02:43,663
and she's seeing a dietician
54
00:02:43,730 --> 00:02:45,965
to overcome her
addiction to food.
55
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:48,668
You know she could have
solved both of these problems
56
00:02:48,735 --> 00:02:50,503
just by keeping her mouth shut.
57
00:02:50,570 --> 00:02:51,738
(audience laughing)
58
00:02:51,838 --> 00:02:53,573
- [Monica] I was patient zero
59
00:02:53,673 --> 00:02:56,843
of having a reputation
completely destroyed
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00:02:56,910 --> 00:02:59,546
worldwide because
of the internet.
61
00:03:01,514 --> 00:03:03,149
And I would not be the last.
62
00:03:06,019 --> 00:03:08,521
As the internet
grew and changed.
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00:03:08,588 --> 00:03:11,257
- You make a profile,
by answering some questions.
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00:03:11,357 --> 00:03:14,894
- [Monica] I saw it become a
breeding ground for outrage.
65
00:03:14,994 --> 00:03:16,229
- [Reporter] We live in
an outrage culture.
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00:03:16,329 --> 00:03:17,263
- [Monica] And ridicule.
67
00:03:17,363 --> 00:03:18,565
- Shit.
68
00:03:18,665 --> 00:03:19,365
- [Reporter] Threat from a woman
who sparked a Twitter backlash.
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00:03:19,432 --> 00:03:20,366
- [Monica] Whether
it was pile-ons.
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00:03:20,433 --> 00:03:22,769
- [Reporter] Judge and
juries on social media
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00:03:22,869 --> 00:03:23,903
began weighing in.
72
00:03:24,003 --> 00:03:25,205
- [Monica] Hateful troll mobs.
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00:03:25,271 --> 00:03:26,906
- The video sparking
outrage on Twitter.
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00:03:27,006 --> 00:03:27,907
- So mean.
75
00:03:28,007 --> 00:03:29,108
- [Monica] Or cyber harassment.
76
00:03:29,209 --> 00:03:31,878
- Men going after women in
really hostile, aggressive ways.
77
00:03:31,945 --> 00:03:34,280
- Cyber bullying has
tripled in the past year.
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00:03:36,216 --> 00:03:39,018
- [Monica] Our culture
was drowning in something.
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00:03:40,787 --> 00:03:41,588
- Shame.
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00:03:43,289 --> 00:03:44,090
Shame,
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00:03:45,725 --> 00:03:46,526
shame,
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00:03:48,027 --> 00:03:49,562
shame.
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00:03:49,629 --> 00:03:52,799
- [Monica] And I wanted
to understand why.
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00:03:52,899 --> 00:03:56,069
(upbeat piano music)
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00:03:56,135 --> 00:03:58,738
- [Monica] So I teamed up
with filmmaker, Max Joseph,
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00:03:58,805 --> 00:03:59,939
who knows a thing or two
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00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:02,475
about documenting
internet phenomena.
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00:04:02,575 --> 00:04:03,443
And together,
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00:04:03,543 --> 00:04:05,245
we decided to get to the bottom
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00:04:05,311 --> 00:04:07,981
of this Renaissance
of public shaming.
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00:04:08,081 --> 00:04:09,649
- Okay, today is the day
92
00:04:09,749 --> 00:04:14,220
I am finally leaving to
go film this documentary.
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00:04:15,822 --> 00:04:17,323
- [Monica] We talked
to the thought leaders.
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00:04:17,423 --> 00:04:19,626
- I'm here because I wrote
a book about public shaming.
95
00:04:19,726 --> 00:04:22,095
- I'm asked about cancel
culture probably every day.
96
00:04:22,161 --> 00:04:23,463
- [Max] We talked
to the experts.
97
00:04:23,563 --> 00:04:25,498
- There's something
about social media
98
00:04:25,598 --> 00:04:28,501
that you can get a
flash mob of outrage
99
00:04:28,601 --> 00:04:30,803
against somebody in seconds.
100
00:04:30,903 --> 00:04:33,673
- There is a self-censoring
effect, a chilling effect.
101
00:04:33,773 --> 00:04:37,677
Even if you're witnessing
somebody else become the target.
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00:04:37,777 --> 00:04:40,013
- The outrage, the bullying.
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00:04:40,113 --> 00:04:42,448
We are operating
at our lowest level
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00:04:42,515 --> 00:04:43,650
as a species right now.
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00:04:45,618 --> 00:04:46,786
- Shaming culture.
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00:04:46,853 --> 00:04:47,687
- I think we've
gone way too far.
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00:04:47,787 --> 00:04:48,421
- [Reporter] So what are
the consequences?
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00:04:48,488 --> 00:04:50,023
- [Monica] How did we get here?
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00:04:50,123 --> 00:04:51,291
- [Reporter] Celebrities
sex taping...
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00:04:51,357 --> 00:04:52,358
- [Max] Where is it leading us?
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00:04:52,458 --> 00:04:53,159
- [Commentator] You hit one
of those trip wires,
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00:04:53,259 --> 00:04:54,127
the whole world
is gonna blow up.
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00:04:54,193 --> 00:04:56,329
- [Monica] And where
the fuck are we going?
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00:05:01,034 --> 00:05:04,003
(tense piano music)
115
00:05:18,384 --> 00:05:21,187
(birds chirping)
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00:05:38,571 --> 00:05:40,506
- [Max] Well, let me show you
where we're gonna do this.
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00:05:40,573 --> 00:05:41,874
- [Jon] Wow, look at this.
118
00:05:41,974 --> 00:05:43,076
- [Max] Yeah.
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00:05:43,176 --> 00:05:44,877
We pulled out all the
stops for you, Jon.
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00:05:46,312 --> 00:05:48,381
Are you ready to
talk all about shame?
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00:05:48,481 --> 00:05:49,749
- [Jon] Sure, we could
do that.
122
00:05:51,417 --> 00:05:53,920
- [Max] Jon Ronson is
an author, a journalist,
123
00:05:54,020 --> 00:05:55,822
a podcaster, a screenwriter.
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00:05:55,888 --> 00:05:58,591
- And I'm here because I wrote
a book about public shaming,
125
00:05:58,691 --> 00:06:00,426
called, So You've
Been Publicly Shamed.
126
00:06:00,526 --> 00:06:02,362
- [Max] The book
was released in 2015
127
00:06:02,428 --> 00:06:05,031
and received a fair
amount of attention.
128
00:06:05,098 --> 00:06:08,368
- For a little while I
became like Mister Shame,
129
00:06:08,434 --> 00:06:09,702
like people would call on me
130
00:06:09,769 --> 00:06:13,106
to adjudicate shaming situations
131
00:06:13,206 --> 00:06:16,542
like does this person
deserve their shame?
132
00:06:21,381 --> 00:06:23,783
I didn't want to be that
person for a bunch of reasons.
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00:06:23,883 --> 00:06:27,887
One reason is that if I've
learned anything from this,
134
00:06:27,954 --> 00:06:31,290
I've learned that each
individual story
135
00:06:31,391 --> 00:06:32,792
is very nuanced.
136
00:06:32,892 --> 00:06:36,362
There's severities
of transgression.
137
00:06:36,429 --> 00:06:39,298
There's the type of world that
the transgressor comes from.
138
00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:42,468
They tend to be people
who have been deemed
139
00:06:42,568 --> 00:06:46,973
representative of something
that's wrong with society.
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00:06:47,073 --> 00:06:49,075
And the fact is
sometimes they are,
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00:06:49,142 --> 00:06:50,977
and sometimes they're not.
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00:06:51,077 --> 00:06:52,111
I think it's just,
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00:06:52,211 --> 00:06:54,814
it's really important to
differentiate between, you know,
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00:06:54,914 --> 00:06:57,717
who is the person being shamed
and what have they done?
145
00:07:10,263 --> 00:07:11,597
- Hi, my name is Matt Colvin.
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00:07:11,664 --> 00:07:13,166
I live in Chattanooga,
Tennessee,
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00:07:13,266 --> 00:07:16,335
and I'm known for
148
00:07:16,436 --> 00:07:18,671
my article in the New
York Times about having
149
00:07:18,771 --> 00:07:21,107
17,000 bottles of
hand sanitizer.
150
00:07:22,942 --> 00:07:24,010
- It's a story that
has gone viral.
151
00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:28,614
A Hixson man purchased 18,000
bottles of hand sanitizer.
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00:07:28,681 --> 00:07:31,350
- It's a story that is
dominating national headlines,
153
00:07:31,451 --> 00:07:34,086
after the New York Times
wrote about Matt Colvin,
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00:07:34,153 --> 00:07:37,190
stockpiling goods amid
the coronavirus outbreak.
155
00:07:37,290 --> 00:07:39,926
(foregin press non English)
- Matt Colvin.
156
00:07:39,992 --> 00:07:42,128
(foregin press non English)
- Matt Colvin.
157
00:07:42,195 --> 00:07:43,362
- [Max] Matt
Colvin experienced
158
00:07:43,463 --> 00:07:45,298
one of the biggest
shamings of 2020.
159
00:07:45,364 --> 00:07:49,368
- If you are selling
hand sanitizer for $200,
160
00:07:49,469 --> 00:07:51,137
shame on you.
- Who is doing that?
161
00:07:51,204 --> 00:07:53,139
- Shame on you.
162
00:07:53,206 --> 00:07:55,374
- [Max] Pretty much the
world over felt justified
163
00:07:55,475 --> 00:07:56,876
in calling him an asshole.
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00:07:56,976 --> 00:08:00,046
♪ Matt Colvin,
you're an asshole ♪
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00:08:00,146 --> 00:08:01,881
- Hey Max, how's it going?
166
00:08:01,981 --> 00:08:03,115
- [Max] Whatever he was,
167
00:08:03,182 --> 00:08:06,219
how did this guy working out
of his garage in Chattanooga?
168
00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:07,720
- This is where
the New York Times
169
00:08:07,820 --> 00:08:09,322
photos were done and everything.
170
00:08:09,388 --> 00:08:11,791
- [Max] Become a magnet
for worldwide shame?
171
00:08:14,827 --> 00:08:16,729
- In early 2020,
172
00:08:16,829 --> 00:08:20,233
I was the owner of a
thriving E-commerce business,
173
00:08:20,333 --> 00:08:22,735
selling things on Amazon.
174
00:08:22,835 --> 00:08:24,904
A lot of times it's
a third-party seller
175
00:08:25,004 --> 00:08:27,206
who Amazon is allowing
to use their platform.
176
00:08:28,674 --> 00:08:31,511
I sold everything from
bird seed to toys, dolls,
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00:08:31,577 --> 00:08:33,746
going to stores like
Ross and Walmart
178
00:08:33,846 --> 00:08:35,681
and finding things
that were discontinued
179
00:08:35,748 --> 00:08:36,916
or in short supply,
180
00:08:37,016 --> 00:08:38,684
that people were willing to pay
181
00:08:38,751 --> 00:08:40,586
a little bit more for on Amazon
182
00:08:40,686 --> 00:08:42,321
and making my
living off of that.
183
00:08:47,693 --> 00:08:49,195
This patch here is from the time
184
00:08:49,262 --> 00:08:51,097
that I spent in the military.
185
00:08:51,197 --> 00:08:54,000
It's got Iraq and Afghanistan.
186
00:08:55,868 --> 00:08:58,070
I joined the
military after 9/11.
187
00:08:59,372 --> 00:09:01,674
It almost felt
like a civic duty.
188
00:09:02,875 --> 00:09:06,379
I saw a lot of death,
doom, and destruction,
189
00:09:06,445 --> 00:09:10,283
and for my mental
and personal safety,
190
00:09:10,383 --> 00:09:12,351
I needed to get out
of that environment.
191
00:09:14,053 --> 00:09:16,122
Being able to work around
192
00:09:16,222 --> 00:09:17,790
some of the physical
and mental issues
193
00:09:17,890 --> 00:09:19,058
that come and go.
194
00:09:19,125 --> 00:09:21,694
Selling on Amazon
with Amazon handling
195
00:09:21,761 --> 00:09:24,597
the fulfillment for things
gave me that flexibility.
196
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,703
- [Max] And how did you start
getting into hand sanitizer?
197
00:09:34,974 --> 00:09:36,576
- To talk about
the hand sanitizer,
198
00:09:36,642 --> 00:09:38,210
you want to go back to February.
199
00:09:39,645 --> 00:09:41,981
- [News Reporter] We only
have about a dozen cases
200
00:09:42,081 --> 00:09:44,750
that have been diagnosed
in the United States.
201
00:09:44,817 --> 00:09:47,820
Most of those in travelers
from China and the flow...
202
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,822
- [Matt] I had heard about
the coronavirus.
203
00:09:49,922 --> 00:09:52,892
It seemed like something
that was remote
204
00:09:52,959 --> 00:09:54,160
and happening in China.
205
00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:56,796
And I didn't see it
gaining a foothold here.
206
00:09:58,764 --> 00:10:00,433
I tracked things
that were trending
207
00:10:00,499 --> 00:10:04,403
and hand sanitizer was
starting to be a thing.
208
00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:07,273
I bought several thousand
bottles from Dollar Tree.
209
00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:09,141
And then from driving around.
210
00:10:10,610 --> 00:10:12,845
I was selling my stuff at
higher than market pricing,
211
00:10:12,945 --> 00:10:15,481
but I was never
the highest price.
212
00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:25,858
Amazon has conditioned
people that shipping is free.
213
00:10:25,958 --> 00:10:28,094
It's not free to
the small business,
214
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,796
especially if you're
shipping a hazmat substance
215
00:10:30,863 --> 00:10:34,800
like the hand sanitizer that
has to be sent a certain way.
216
00:10:34,867 --> 00:10:37,870
So the prices that
were being charged
217
00:10:37,970 --> 00:10:40,973
were not something that is
indefensible, in my mind.
218
00:10:48,481 --> 00:10:49,882
- [News Reporter] Amazon says
219
00:10:49,982 --> 00:10:51,884
it's blocking or removing
thousands of offers
220
00:10:51,984 --> 00:10:55,554
where bad actors are attempting
to artificially raise prices
221
00:10:55,655 --> 00:10:58,824
on basic need products during
a global health crisis.
222
00:11:01,994 --> 00:11:04,063
- Amazon shut those
listings down,
223
00:11:04,163 --> 00:11:06,499
said that my pricing
was too high,
224
00:11:06,565 --> 00:11:08,067
while Amazon at the same time
225
00:11:08,167 --> 00:11:11,037
was massively inflating
their own prices.
226
00:11:16,075 --> 00:11:19,512
The New York Times was
looking to talk to sellers
227
00:11:19,578 --> 00:11:22,682
that had been shut
down on Amazon.
228
00:11:22,748 --> 00:11:24,583
I've always tried to
advocate for other sellers
229
00:11:24,684 --> 00:11:27,386
and this looked like a way
for me to be able to do that.
230
00:11:28,754 --> 00:11:31,857
They asked a lot of questions
about the inventory.
231
00:11:31,924 --> 00:11:34,060
In the photos wanted
me to look pissed.
232
00:11:35,194 --> 00:11:36,929
The whole article was coached
233
00:11:37,029 --> 00:11:39,198
in that Amazon's
being this big bully,
234
00:11:39,265 --> 00:11:41,067
and we're gonna
expose them for that.
235
00:11:42,702 --> 00:11:44,837
But that's not what
it turned out to be.
236
00:11:54,714 --> 00:11:59,719
(phone buzzing)
237
00:12:02,555 --> 00:12:04,623
When the story came out,
238
00:12:04,724 --> 00:12:08,027
we were in bed and my
phone was going crazy.
239
00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:14,033
And then I read the
article, and I understood.
240
00:12:17,737 --> 00:12:19,071
March 1st, the day after
241
00:12:19,138 --> 00:12:22,475
the first death from
Coronavirus in the US,
242
00:12:22,575 --> 00:12:24,643
Matt Colvin went out
and started buying
243
00:12:24,744 --> 00:12:26,979
hand sanitizer like an asshole.
244
00:12:27,079 --> 00:12:27,947
I was horrified.
245
00:12:29,482 --> 00:12:32,651
It said I was selling a
single bottle for $70,
246
00:12:32,752 --> 00:12:35,755
but that was a pack
of multiple bottles.
247
00:12:35,821 --> 00:12:36,622
Didn't matter.
248
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:46,098
I was just getting bombarded.
249
00:12:48,768 --> 00:12:50,469
There was a certain
level of glee.
250
00:12:53,939 --> 00:12:55,941
The hate if it
was even possible,
251
00:12:56,008 --> 00:12:57,476
just got ramped up even higher.
252
00:13:00,446 --> 00:13:03,516
- [News Reporter] Matt Colvin
bought nearly 18,000 bottles
253
00:13:03,616 --> 00:13:04,917
of hand sanitizer,
254
00:13:04,984 --> 00:13:07,620
while many are still
searching to find even one.
255
00:13:07,686 --> 00:13:10,589
For Matt Coleman, a pandemic
meant an opportunity.
256
00:13:26,806 --> 00:13:29,308
- [Max] Was Matt's public
shaming anything new?
257
00:13:30,476 --> 00:13:31,877
- [Monica] Or was it
just a new version
258
00:13:31,977 --> 00:13:34,346
of something we've always done?
259
00:13:35,815 --> 00:13:37,483
- So there's this
extraordinary history
260
00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:39,485
of public humiliation.
261
00:13:39,552 --> 00:13:42,321
- [Monica] Tiffany Watt
Smith is a cultural historian
262
00:13:42,388 --> 00:13:45,057
at Queen Mary
University of London.
263
00:13:45,157 --> 00:13:46,058
- In our distant past,
264
00:13:46,158 --> 00:13:48,727
this is still true of
many communities today,
265
00:13:48,828 --> 00:13:50,896
we were living in very
small groups of people,
266
00:13:50,996 --> 00:13:53,465
and it was very important
that everyone kind of pulled
267
00:13:53,532 --> 00:13:56,869
together and we're playing
by the same rules and
268
00:13:56,969 --> 00:13:58,404
things are shared equally,
269
00:13:58,504 --> 00:14:00,973
and no one is hoarding anything.
270
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,241
These kind of societies
271
00:14:02,341 --> 00:14:04,243
punish very quickly
and very severely
272
00:14:04,343 --> 00:14:07,246
anyone who is trying to take
more than their fair share,
273
00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:08,214
anyone who sort of thinks
274
00:14:08,314 --> 00:14:10,716
that they don't have
to abide by the rules.
275
00:14:13,352 --> 00:14:15,087
And societies across the ages
276
00:14:15,187 --> 00:14:19,024
have this kind of
this strange process
277
00:14:19,091 --> 00:14:21,227
of ritualized
public humiliation.
278
00:14:24,029 --> 00:14:25,264
- [Narrator] For many
of our students,
279
00:14:25,364 --> 00:14:27,733
this is the lesson
you've been waiting for.
280
00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:32,204
- [Max] In the beginning,
281
00:14:32,271 --> 00:14:33,072
there was shame.
282
00:14:35,374 --> 00:14:37,176
Swiftly followed by banishment.
283
00:14:39,445 --> 00:14:41,280
In China, they put you in a cage
284
00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:43,616
and leave you at the
gates to the city.
285
00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:45,284
In ancient
Mediterranean cultures,
286
00:14:45,384 --> 00:14:48,354
they'd shave your head and
burn off all your body hair.
287
00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:49,455
(sizzling)
♪ Yeah ♪
288
00:14:49,555 --> 00:14:50,689
- [Matt] In ancient Greece,
289
00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:52,625
citizens could vote
you off the island
290
00:14:52,725 --> 00:14:54,426
and you couldn't come
back for 10 years.
291
00:14:55,694 --> 00:14:58,130
They voted with these shards
of pottery called ostraka,
292
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:59,732
hence ostracizing.
293
00:14:59,798 --> 00:15:00,900
(bell rings)
294
00:15:00,966 --> 00:15:02,635
♪ Gonna wash my hands ♪
295
00:15:02,735 --> 00:15:04,136
- [Max] Tarring and feathering
first appeared
296
00:15:04,236 --> 00:15:05,871
in 12th century England,
297
00:15:05,938 --> 00:15:07,072
an instant classic.
298
00:15:08,574 --> 00:15:11,143
There was also the bride's
muzzle, the scolds bridle,
299
00:15:11,243 --> 00:15:13,779
the drunkards cloak,
and the cucking stool.
300
00:15:15,581 --> 00:15:17,082
But it was the early 1300's
301
00:15:17,149 --> 00:15:19,151
that witnessed the emergence
of what would become
302
00:15:19,251 --> 00:15:22,922
everyone's favorite public
shaming device, the pillory.
303
00:15:25,591 --> 00:15:27,092
- It was a kind of
wooden contraption,
304
00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:29,662
and you'd put your
arms and your head
305
00:15:29,762 --> 00:15:30,829
kind of through
this contraption,
306
00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,631
and that would be
fixed in place.
307
00:15:33,933 --> 00:15:36,101
And you would be made
to kind of parade
308
00:15:36,168 --> 00:15:38,170
to the site of the pillory.
309
00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:41,440
And those parades were vicious.
310
00:15:41,507 --> 00:15:43,609
People would shout abuse,
311
00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:45,511
hurl things at you.
312
00:15:45,611 --> 00:15:47,012
There are examples
of people who died
313
00:15:47,112 --> 00:15:49,281
on their way to the pillory.
314
00:15:49,348 --> 00:15:51,850
This is a person
who is suffering
315
00:15:51,951 --> 00:15:54,687
because they have
done something wrong,
316
00:15:54,787 --> 00:15:57,790
and we have to punish them in
order to tell everyone else
317
00:15:57,856 --> 00:15:59,091
not to do the same thing.
318
00:16:06,131 --> 00:16:09,702
- Some people had actually
found my home address.
319
00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:12,037
In my head, I was
convinced that everything
320
00:16:12,137 --> 00:16:13,372
that I've read that was negative
321
00:16:13,472 --> 00:16:15,107
was about to actually happen.
322
00:16:18,811 --> 00:16:21,313
We went and stayed in an Airbnb.
323
00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:24,883
I'm glad that we did because
about 11 o'clock that night,
324
00:16:24,984 --> 00:16:27,186
someone showed up and
started banging on the door.
325
00:16:31,223 --> 00:16:32,992
I purchased a small handgun,
326
00:16:33,058 --> 00:16:35,694
because I was that concerned
for our family's safety.
327
00:16:37,062 --> 00:16:37,997
- Just don't buy up all the guns
328
00:16:38,063 --> 00:16:39,631
like you did the sanitizer man.
329
00:16:42,167 --> 00:16:45,137
- The fact that somebody
actually recognized who I was,
330
00:16:47,172 --> 00:16:48,040
that shook me.
331
00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:52,911
Some of the items that I sold,
332
00:16:53,012 --> 00:16:55,014
I feel like I did get caught up
333
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,016
and didn't take
everything into account
334
00:16:57,082 --> 00:17:00,085
and did make a mistake with
how high my pricing was.
335
00:17:00,185 --> 00:17:02,187
And it costs me in a big way.
336
00:17:04,757 --> 00:17:08,594
The economic impact from
this has been substantial.
337
00:17:08,694 --> 00:17:12,364
We're dipping into
our emergency funds
338
00:17:12,431 --> 00:17:16,502
and don't really have a way out.
339
00:17:20,372 --> 00:17:22,541
- Someone said to me once,
340
00:17:22,608 --> 00:17:27,046
Twitter purports
to hate tabloids,
341
00:17:27,112 --> 00:17:29,782
but acts exactly like
a tabloid, you know,
342
00:17:29,882 --> 00:17:34,286
ridding the story
of nuance, context.
343
00:17:34,386 --> 00:17:35,954
Just treating somebody as this,
344
00:17:36,055 --> 00:17:40,459
as this one monolithic
aspect of their personality.
345
00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:41,460
I mean, yeah,
346
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,465
British tabloids were
tearing people to shreds
347
00:17:46,565 --> 00:17:48,400
since the dawn of
the printing press.
348
00:17:50,736 --> 00:17:52,304
- [Monica] The
printing revolution
349
00:17:52,404 --> 00:17:54,907
was a big leap for civilization,
350
00:17:54,973 --> 00:17:59,411
for literacy, for culture,
for the spread of knowledge,
351
00:17:59,478 --> 00:18:02,748
but it was also the
heir to the pillory.
352
00:18:02,815 --> 00:18:07,653
- We go from the stocks and
the pillories to the tabloids.
353
00:18:07,753 --> 00:18:09,054
They take no prisoners
354
00:18:09,121 --> 00:18:12,825
when it comes to the
spectacle of public shaming.
355
00:18:12,925 --> 00:18:15,094
They'd make this link
between the sense
356
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,662
that we enjoy seeing people
357
00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:18,997
exposed and punished
in the papers,
358
00:18:19,098 --> 00:18:21,100
and the sense that we're
willing to pay for it.
359
00:18:21,166 --> 00:18:23,836
- [Monica] Technology had
taken our love of shame
360
00:18:23,936 --> 00:18:27,840
out of the town square and
put it onto the newsstand.
361
00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:31,944
And with that, humiliation
had been monetized.
362
00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:35,681
Fast forward to the
1970's when Rupert Murdoch
363
00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:39,518
brought his wildly successful
tabloid formula to America,
364
00:18:39,618 --> 00:18:43,789
where capitalism found a million
new ways to distribute it.
365
00:18:43,856 --> 00:18:46,358
It was the beginning of
a blending and bleeding
366
00:18:46,458 --> 00:18:48,460
of supermarket tabloid culture
367
00:18:48,527 --> 00:18:50,362
into every form of media.
368
00:18:50,462 --> 00:18:52,297
- [News Reporter] Coming up
on E-news, a Week in Review,
369
00:18:52,364 --> 00:18:54,633
celebrities and their sex lives.
370
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:57,369
- Ratings for my show.
371
00:18:57,469 --> 00:18:59,037
(cheering)
372
00:18:59,138 --> 00:19:01,974
- When I started, I
understood the media
373
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,043
might be interested
in what I did,
374
00:19:05,144 --> 00:19:08,213
but I was not aware
of how overwhelming
375
00:19:08,313 --> 00:19:11,283
that attention would become.
376
00:19:14,887 --> 00:19:18,991
(camera shutters clicking)
377
00:19:19,057 --> 00:19:20,893
- [News Reporter] It's been
reported in the last few minutes
378
00:19:20,993 --> 00:19:23,795
that Diana, Princess of Wales
has been seriously injured
379
00:19:23,862 --> 00:19:25,364
in a car crash in Paris.
380
00:19:26,565 --> 00:19:28,066
- Now there is confirmation
381
00:19:28,167 --> 00:19:31,637
that Diana, Princess
of Wales, has died.
382
00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:33,672
- [Reporter] French officials
say the couple
383
00:19:33,739 --> 00:19:35,007
were being chased by paparazzi.
384
00:19:37,342 --> 00:19:38,744
- [Monica] Diana's
death could have been
385
00:19:38,844 --> 00:19:40,913
a catalyst for change,
386
00:19:41,013 --> 00:19:44,349
an indictment of this
culture of humiliation,
387
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:46,084
but it wasn't.
388
00:19:46,185 --> 00:19:48,754
(somber music)
389
00:19:48,854 --> 00:19:50,923
And less than five months later,
390
00:19:51,023 --> 00:19:55,694
I would personally come to
understand the price of shame.
391
00:19:58,764 --> 00:20:00,098
- The vote is just in,
392
00:20:00,199 --> 00:20:01,066
an overwhelming vote
393
00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:02,434
in the House of Representatives
394
00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:04,036
as a whole,
395
00:20:04,102 --> 00:20:07,272
to release the details
of the Ken Starr report.
396
00:20:07,372 --> 00:20:10,108
- We're told they're going
to put this on the internet.
397
00:20:10,209 --> 00:20:12,945
I think what is going to
be stunning to people,
398
00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:16,281
is how graphic some
of it is going to be.
399
00:20:16,381 --> 00:20:18,784
- [Monica] Public
humiliation wasn't new,
400
00:20:18,884 --> 00:20:22,221
but public shaming on the
internet was a whole new thing.
401
00:20:23,222 --> 00:20:26,191
(modem connection beeping)
402
00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:31,463
- [News Reporter] It was a
star-filled day for the internet
403
00:20:31,563 --> 00:20:34,233
with some websites getting
20 times the visits
404
00:20:34,299 --> 00:20:35,434
of a normal day.
405
00:20:35,534 --> 00:20:38,303
So many people tried to reach
the congressional websites
406
00:20:38,403 --> 00:20:39,805
to read the Starr Report,
407
00:20:39,905 --> 00:20:42,975
those sites were shut
down by the overload.
408
00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:45,410
- [Monica] There was no
handbook on what to do,
409
00:20:45,477 --> 00:20:47,613
being publicly shamed
on the internet.
410
00:20:52,417 --> 00:20:53,619
I was mortified.
411
00:20:56,588 --> 00:21:00,259
I couldn't draw a border
around how many people knew,
412
00:21:00,325 --> 00:21:03,228
how many people were
reveling in my shame,
413
00:21:04,162 --> 00:21:06,331
and the image of
people laughing,
414
00:21:06,431 --> 00:21:09,234
proliferated like
stars in the night sky,
415
00:21:09,301 --> 00:21:11,770
as it gets darker and darker.
416
00:21:11,837 --> 00:21:13,905
- Monica was a young tramp.
417
00:21:16,775 --> 00:21:19,278
- [Monica] The internet
allowed anyone, anywhere,
418
00:21:19,344 --> 00:21:21,813
to instantly read
about my shaming,
419
00:21:22,781 --> 00:21:24,916
and to take part in it as well.
420
00:21:29,454 --> 00:21:32,291
- When someone is just
a name on a screen
421
00:21:32,357 --> 00:21:34,526
with some of their text,
422
00:21:34,626 --> 00:21:37,362
as well as maybe a
stranger you've never met,
423
00:21:37,462 --> 00:21:41,366
that is not enough information
for our human brains
424
00:21:41,466 --> 00:21:44,036
to fully perceive
them as a human.
425
00:21:44,703 --> 00:21:47,306
- [Max] Doctor Helen Weng
is both a neuroscientist
426
00:21:47,372 --> 00:21:48,640
and a psychologist.
427
00:21:49,875 --> 00:21:51,476
She has spent the
last decade studying
428
00:21:51,543 --> 00:21:54,713
how our brains evolved
to process emotions.
429
00:21:54,813 --> 00:21:56,882
- So one quick
route that our brain
430
00:21:56,982 --> 00:21:58,717
understands the mental
states of others,
431
00:21:58,817 --> 00:22:02,487
is viewing people's
faces and body language.
432
00:22:02,554 --> 00:22:05,657
And our brains process this
information very, very quickly.
433
00:22:06,825 --> 00:22:09,061
If we don't have access
to that information
434
00:22:09,161 --> 00:22:10,562
through the internet,
435
00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:13,999
then it's harder for
us to even think about
436
00:22:14,066 --> 00:22:16,335
what this person might
be thinking or feeling.
437
00:22:17,736 --> 00:22:20,238
We need all of those
inputs to fully understand
438
00:22:20,339 --> 00:22:24,476
that someone is a full human
being with their own feelings.
439
00:22:29,748 --> 00:22:33,485
- [Matt] All it takes is one
mention of price gouging.
440
00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:35,420
And next thing you know,
441
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,156
I'm going down
the rabbit hole of
442
00:22:39,424 --> 00:22:41,059
reading my own press.
443
00:22:42,861 --> 00:22:45,497
There's a part of me that's
searching for an answer
444
00:22:46,698 --> 00:22:49,234
to your question of
am I really that guy?
445
00:22:58,877 --> 00:23:00,779
- [Max] In an election year,
446
00:23:00,879 --> 00:23:04,216
where there was also a
once in a century pandemic,
447
00:23:04,282 --> 00:23:06,885
the New York Times
article on Matt Colvin
448
00:23:06,952 --> 00:23:09,588
got the attention of the world.
449
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:24,436
- People love to say,
oh, it's the internet.
450
00:23:24,536 --> 00:23:25,537
It's not real,
451
00:23:25,604 --> 00:23:28,573
so I am not responsible for
dehumanizing the person,
452
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,075
the internet is.
453
00:23:30,142 --> 00:23:31,410
The internet is there,
454
00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:33,145
but we are responsible
for the ways
455
00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:35,046
in which we
dehumanize each other.
456
00:23:36,481 --> 00:23:39,217
- [Monica] Roxane Gay is a
writer, professor, editor,
457
00:23:39,284 --> 00:23:41,153
and cultural commentator.
458
00:23:41,253 --> 00:23:44,756
She's won the Eisner award,
a Guggenheim fellowship,
459
00:23:44,823 --> 00:23:46,591
the Penn Freedom to Write Award,
460
00:23:46,658 --> 00:23:49,327
and she's a New York
Times bestselling author.
461
00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:53,098
She's also a big
deal on social media.
462
00:23:53,165 --> 00:23:54,766
- I think social
media is a good idea,
463
00:23:54,833 --> 00:23:56,768
but people ruin everything.
464
00:23:56,835 --> 00:23:58,670
It's a very toxic atmosphere.
465
00:23:58,770 --> 00:24:02,340
It's an atmosphere where the
more marginalized you are,
466
00:24:02,441 --> 00:24:05,777
the more harassment you're
going to receive for existing,
467
00:24:05,844 --> 00:24:08,113
and expressing
thoughts and opinions.
468
00:24:08,180 --> 00:24:12,951
It's a medium now where
people are very punitive.
469
00:24:13,018 --> 00:24:15,787
There is no tolerance
for mistakes or nuance.
470
00:24:15,854 --> 00:24:17,355
It's really unfortunate to see
471
00:24:17,456 --> 00:24:20,325
how the platform has devolved,
it used to be really great.
472
00:24:23,295 --> 00:24:25,964
I loved that you were able
to connect with people
473
00:24:26,031 --> 00:24:28,667
you would never have
the opportunity to meet,
474
00:24:30,202 --> 00:24:34,039
and expect nothing in return,
but sometimes get a response.
475
00:24:34,139 --> 00:24:36,942
And that's just really cool.
476
00:24:38,643 --> 00:24:39,878
It's just like a cocktail party
477
00:24:39,978 --> 00:24:41,613
you can go to in your pajamas.
478
00:24:43,148 --> 00:24:45,984
I think social media
has really allowed
479
00:24:46,051 --> 00:24:47,686
wallflowers to shine.
480
00:24:48,887 --> 00:24:51,223
- The first, maybe
four years of Twitter,
481
00:24:51,323 --> 00:24:55,627
between about 2008 and 2012,
it was kind of utopian.
482
00:24:57,162 --> 00:25:01,399
- You could have conversations
and you could be left alone.
483
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:04,503
- People were curious
about each other.
484
00:25:04,569 --> 00:25:07,072
- And nobody would be like, oh,
485
00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:11,309
it's time to end you because
you disagree with me.
486
00:25:13,245 --> 00:25:15,413
- The change started
around 2012.
487
00:25:15,514 --> 00:25:19,584
We realized that when
people outside of our circle
488
00:25:19,684 --> 00:25:21,887
transgressed, we could
do something about it.
489
00:25:24,689 --> 00:25:26,191
I remember there was a
heavily pregnant woman
490
00:25:26,258 --> 00:25:29,427
who tried to cancel her
membership to LA Fitness.
491
00:25:29,528 --> 00:25:31,263
LA Fitness wouldn't let
her cancel her membership,
492
00:25:31,363 --> 00:25:33,198
so she went on Twitter
and complained.
493
00:25:33,265 --> 00:25:34,766
(Twiter bird tweet)
494
00:25:34,866 --> 00:25:36,568
(bell ringing)
495
00:25:37,536 --> 00:25:40,105
We got them, we got LA fitness.
496
00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:42,707
We just piled on LA
fitness and we got them.
497
00:25:42,774 --> 00:25:43,942
We hit them with a weapon
498
00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:45,110
that we understood
and they didn't,
499
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:47,445
which was the social
media shaming.
500
00:25:47,546 --> 00:25:48,947
It was that, whoa,
501
00:25:49,047 --> 00:25:50,582
we've got all this new power.
502
00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:52,851
- For most of modern history,
503
00:25:52,918 --> 00:25:56,054
we've seen information coming
to us from people in power,
504
00:25:56,121 --> 00:25:58,089
from authority figures,
from politicians.
505
00:25:59,291 --> 00:26:01,226
The information only
goes in one direction.
506
00:26:01,293 --> 00:26:02,127
- [Max] Aja Romano is a
507
00:26:02,227 --> 00:26:03,461
writer and journalist,
508
00:26:03,562 --> 00:26:04,529
whose expertise
509
00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:06,464
is internet culture.
510
00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:07,966
- But now because
of social media,
511
00:26:08,066 --> 00:26:08,967
you have people without power
512
00:26:09,067 --> 00:26:11,803
using their collective
voice to speak back.
513
00:26:11,903 --> 00:26:14,139
- [Man] I am leading
a Twitter revolution.
514
00:26:14,239 --> 00:26:14,973
- [Reporter] You're
giving Facebook
515
00:26:15,073 --> 00:26:16,041
a lot of credit for this.
516
00:26:16,107 --> 00:26:17,742
- [Wael] I want to meet Mark
Zuckerberg one day
517
00:26:17,809 --> 00:26:18,443
and thank him.
518
00:26:18,543 --> 00:26:19,244
- I think we see public shaming
519
00:26:19,311 --> 00:26:21,079
being used for
good all the time.
520
00:26:21,146 --> 00:26:23,415
Like a boycott, having
a positive result.
521
00:26:23,481 --> 00:26:24,316
- [Protester] Whose streets?
522
00:26:24,416 --> 00:26:25,150
- [Crowd] Our streets!
523
00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:25,984
- [Protester] Whose streets?
524
00:26:26,084 --> 00:26:26,985
- [Crowd] Our streets!
525
00:26:27,085 --> 00:26:28,920
- [Monica] That long predates
cancel culture.
526
00:26:28,987 --> 00:26:30,155
- [News Reporter] Protests held
527
00:26:30,255 --> 00:26:32,324
at every sea park
around the world.
528
00:26:32,424 --> 00:26:34,159
- There are things that
happen in this world
529
00:26:34,259 --> 00:26:35,327
that are outrageous.
530
00:26:35,427 --> 00:26:36,227
- [Student] I go to UVA!
531
00:26:36,294 --> 00:26:37,329
- Stop (beep) fighting.
532
00:26:37,429 --> 00:26:38,997
- You (beep) racists!
533
00:26:39,097 --> 00:26:42,300
- There's a lot of resentment
and it's reasonable.
534
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,302
- [Protester] Black lives
they matter where?
535
00:26:44,402 --> 00:26:46,104
- [Crowd] Black lives
they matter here!
536
00:26:46,171 --> 00:26:49,274
- People are so
unseenand so unheard,
537
00:26:49,341 --> 00:26:51,676
and they've been
unrepresented for so long,
538
00:26:51,776 --> 00:26:53,745
and you see something
done about it.
539
00:26:53,812 --> 00:26:55,347
That is incredibly satisfying.
540
00:26:55,447 --> 00:26:56,948
- [News Reporter] President
Joe Biden has revoked
541
00:26:57,015 --> 00:27:00,185
the permit needed to build
the Keystone XL pipeline.
542
00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:01,119
- [News Reporter]
Social media posts
543
00:27:01,186 --> 00:27:03,021
calling to stop Asian hate.
544
00:27:03,121 --> 00:27:04,255
- [News Reporter] In city
after city around the world.
545
00:27:04,322 --> 00:27:06,524
- [News Reporter] Watershed
moment for the #MeToo movement.
546
00:27:06,625 --> 00:27:09,294
Harvey Weinstein
sentenced to 23 years.
547
00:27:09,361 --> 00:27:10,528
- [News Reporter] The
NFL's Washington Redskins
548
00:27:10,629 --> 00:27:11,863
are changing the team name
549
00:27:11,963 --> 00:27:13,865
and the team's
Native American logo.
550
00:27:13,965 --> 00:27:15,667
Proof today that
activism matters.
551
00:27:18,136 --> 00:27:21,039
- And I think what started
to happen around that point
552
00:27:21,139 --> 00:27:24,542
was that we fell in love
with this new power too much,
553
00:27:24,643 --> 00:27:26,378
that our standards
began to slip.
554
00:27:26,478 --> 00:27:29,047
And instead of getting
powerful corporations
555
00:27:29,147 --> 00:27:32,217
who had committed transgressions
with actual victims,
556
00:27:32,317 --> 00:27:35,120
we started getting people
for, who had misspoken.
557
00:27:36,488 --> 00:27:38,156
- [Monica] In this picture,
Lindsay can be seen
558
00:27:38,223 --> 00:27:41,226
flipping off the
Tomb of the Unknowns.
559
00:27:41,326 --> 00:27:43,395
- [Woman] And Kim Kardashian
is facing backlash
560
00:27:43,495 --> 00:27:45,163
after flying her
family and friends
561
00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:46,164
to a private island to...
562
00:27:46,231 --> 00:27:48,566
- [Reporter] Mothers all over
are being shamed
563
00:27:48,667 --> 00:27:50,135
for their parenting decisions.
564
00:27:50,201 --> 00:27:52,671
- Because we were too in
love with this new power.
565
00:27:52,737 --> 00:27:55,240
So a day without a shaming,
felt like a day, you know,
566
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:57,575
picking fingernails
and treading water,
567
00:27:57,676 --> 00:27:59,077
that it felt weird and empty
568
00:27:59,177 --> 00:28:00,512
when there wasn't somebody
who had done something wrong
569
00:28:00,578 --> 00:28:01,513
that we could get.
570
00:28:04,349 --> 00:28:06,251
And that's where we started
disproportionately
571
00:28:06,351 --> 00:28:08,186
shaming people who
didn't deserve it.
572
00:28:08,253 --> 00:28:09,688
- [News Reporter] It's
the viral encounter
573
00:28:09,754 --> 00:28:12,524
that ignited a social
media powder keg.
574
00:28:12,590 --> 00:28:15,427
But now new footage showing
there were other tensions
575
00:28:15,527 --> 00:28:16,761
before that incident.
576
00:28:16,861 --> 00:28:18,430
- Or we just find out
that we got it wrong.
577
00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:19,597
They hadn't done the thing
578
00:28:19,698 --> 00:28:20,999
that we'd all
thought they'd done.
579
00:28:22,701 --> 00:28:25,403
(birds singing)
580
00:28:33,211 --> 00:28:35,213
- I'm from San Diego.
581
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,116
I love having San Diego
as a first, you know,
582
00:28:38,216 --> 00:28:40,351
part of the title of my job,
583
00:28:40,418 --> 00:28:43,121
San Diego Gas and
Electric Locator.
584
00:28:43,221 --> 00:28:44,022
I like that.
585
00:28:46,791 --> 00:28:48,093
That sounds like somebody.
586
00:28:51,629 --> 00:28:54,399
When I landed the job at SDGE,
587
00:28:54,466 --> 00:28:58,636
it felt like my proudest
professional achievement.
588
00:28:58,737 --> 00:29:00,472
When she told me over
the phone, she said,
589
00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:04,576
it's gonna start at 41.05,
is that okay, she asked me.
590
00:29:04,642 --> 00:29:06,111
I put the phone down, okay?
591
00:29:07,312 --> 00:29:09,214
Yeah, it's way more than okay.
592
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,750
And when I first told my
oldest daughter about the job
593
00:29:11,816 --> 00:29:13,251
and she was like, oh, so I guess
594
00:29:13,318 --> 00:29:15,787
our Christmas presents
will be upgraded this year,
595
00:29:17,155 --> 00:29:18,490
which I thought was funny,
596
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:20,258
but it turned out to be true.
597
00:29:22,327 --> 00:29:23,661
I knew who I was.
598
00:29:23,762 --> 00:29:26,931
I was a locator for San
Diego Gas and Electric,
599
00:29:26,998 --> 00:29:29,100
and I was gonna do
that till I retired.
600
00:29:31,603 --> 00:29:33,338
- [News Reporter] George Floyd
tomorrow
601
00:29:33,438 --> 00:29:34,506
here in Minneapolis.
602
00:29:34,606 --> 00:29:36,841
- [Emmanuel] It's early summer,
603
00:29:36,941 --> 00:29:39,644
eight days past the
George Floyd murder.
604
00:29:41,446 --> 00:29:43,448
I filled out my time sheet
605
00:29:43,515 --> 00:29:45,483
and I started heading
home for the day.
606
00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:50,488
That's when I come across a
Black Lives Matter protest.
607
00:29:53,291 --> 00:29:58,196
I travel east for over a
mile, hand on the wheel,
608
00:29:58,296 --> 00:30:01,366
window down, I got my
hand resting on the door,
609
00:30:01,466 --> 00:30:03,868
and I'm just doing
a series of these,
610
00:30:03,968 --> 00:30:05,804
just a fidgety habit I have.
611
00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:07,872
It's just my hand
tightens up sometimes
612
00:30:07,972 --> 00:30:09,107
at the end of the day.
613
00:30:09,974 --> 00:30:10,842
So I'm doing that,
614
00:30:12,143 --> 00:30:14,279
when I'm approached
by a motorist,
615
00:30:15,647 --> 00:30:19,884
a balding, Caucasian
in his mid 50's.
616
00:30:19,984 --> 00:30:22,887
Pissed, pissed like
I stole his dog.
617
00:30:22,987 --> 00:30:24,489
He does this thing.
618
00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:27,325
And he says, "You're
gonna do this, asshole?
619
00:30:27,392 --> 00:30:29,661
Really? You're
going to do this?"
620
00:30:29,727 --> 00:30:31,229
The light turns green.
621
00:30:31,329 --> 00:30:36,301
He calls me a piece
of shit, speeds away.
622
00:30:36,901 --> 00:30:37,468
And that was it.
623
00:30:45,677 --> 00:30:47,145
Couple hours later, I get a call
624
00:30:47,212 --> 00:30:49,681
from one of
my immediate supervisors.
625
00:30:49,747 --> 00:30:54,319
He tells me there's been a
photo of you in your work truck
626
00:30:56,087 --> 00:30:58,089
posted on Twitter,
627
00:30:58,189 --> 00:31:00,925
and the accusation
is that you're doing
628
00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:03,828
a white supremacist hand gesture
629
00:31:08,032 --> 00:31:10,068
in front of a Black
Lives Matter protest.
630
00:31:12,770 --> 00:31:15,173
(dark music)
631
00:31:25,950 --> 00:31:28,887
The higher ups have
gotten wind of it.
632
00:31:28,953 --> 00:31:30,889
They are taking it very serious.
633
00:31:36,628 --> 00:31:39,564
The following
Monday, I get a call.
634
00:31:39,631 --> 00:31:43,468
We all gathered together
in a conference room.
635
00:31:43,568 --> 00:31:48,406
We haven't sat down 10 seconds
when, before he says, well,
636
00:31:48,473 --> 00:31:51,910
we've decided that there are
too many holes in your story
637
00:31:51,976 --> 00:31:54,812
and we're going
to terminate you.
638
00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:57,415
I asked him, what
are these holes?
639
00:31:57,482 --> 00:31:59,584
Let me fill them
for you right now.
640
00:31:59,651 --> 00:32:03,254
I got to the point where I
raised both my arms and I say,
641
00:32:03,321 --> 00:32:05,490
"You do see this, right?
642
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:08,426
You see the color
of my skin, right?
643
00:32:08,493 --> 00:32:11,095
So you see how
preposterous it would be
644
00:32:11,162 --> 00:32:16,134
for me to be a white supremacist
when I'm not white myself.
645
00:32:17,602 --> 00:32:20,505
Well, so now it's been
determined, it's official.
646
00:32:20,605 --> 00:32:21,472
I'm terminated.
647
00:32:32,183 --> 00:32:33,618
- [Woman] If it
wasn't so serious
648
00:32:33,685 --> 00:32:37,121
I would bag on you so hard
for all of this, it's funny.
649
00:32:37,188 --> 00:32:38,289
- [Emmanuel] What's funny,
go ahead, bag on me.
650
00:32:38,356 --> 00:32:39,791
What's funny about it?
651
00:32:39,857 --> 00:32:42,360
- [Woman] Everyone's like,
oh, you're trying to battle
652
00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:43,861
like the white
supremacist system.
653
00:32:43,962 --> 00:32:46,531
You're trying to battle this
institutionalized racism.
654
00:32:46,631 --> 00:32:47,932
And all it takes is a white dude
655
00:32:47,999 --> 00:32:49,133
saying that this guy's a racist
656
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,802
for a Mexican dude
to lose his job.
657
00:32:50,868 --> 00:32:52,370
That's the irony of it.
658
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:55,606
- There was no punch line
in this shit, no punch line.
659
00:32:57,809 --> 00:33:00,545
- I never heard that
term, cancel culture,
660
00:33:00,645 --> 00:33:02,880
until after I'd been canceled.
661
00:33:02,981 --> 00:33:04,382
First time I heard it,
662
00:33:04,482 --> 00:33:05,717
this cancel culture
stuff has got to go.
663
00:33:05,817 --> 00:33:07,151
I had to look it up.
664
00:33:07,218 --> 00:33:08,553
Like what is that?
665
00:33:08,653 --> 00:33:10,154
- The origins of the
term cancel culture
666
00:33:10,221 --> 00:33:11,389
are a little nebulous.
667
00:33:11,489 --> 00:33:15,059
You can trace back
dating from 1991.
668
00:33:15,159 --> 00:33:18,796
when the Wesley Snipes film
"New Jack City" came out.
669
00:33:18,863 --> 00:33:21,899
(upbeat music)
670
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,668
Basically there's a
scene where Wesley Snipes
671
00:33:23,735 --> 00:33:26,004
is breaking up with
one of his girlfriends,
672
00:33:26,070 --> 00:33:27,672
or mistresses, and he says-
673
00:33:27,739 --> 00:33:28,706
- Cancel that bitch.
674
00:33:29,674 --> 00:33:31,676
I'll buy another one.
675
00:33:31,743 --> 00:33:33,678
- Right before the term, cancel
culture, really takes off.
676
00:33:33,745 --> 00:33:35,580
At the end of 2014,
December, 2014,
677
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,082
you have an episode
of Love and Hip Hop.
678
00:33:38,182 --> 00:33:39,183
- I have a daughter.
679
00:33:40,184 --> 00:33:41,052
- You what?
680
00:33:41,152 --> 00:33:42,754
- We're all gonna be
one big happy family.
681
00:33:42,854 --> 00:33:44,522
- You're canceled.
682
00:33:44,589 --> 00:33:45,990
You're canceled.
683
00:33:47,025 --> 00:33:47,925
- It took off from there.
684
00:33:48,026 --> 00:33:50,595
People started using it
initially humorously.
685
00:33:50,695 --> 00:33:54,032
- Finally, welcome to my
caucasian home, come inside.
686
00:33:54,098 --> 00:33:55,900
- Well that's over,
it's canceled.
687
00:34:01,372 --> 00:34:03,274
- And then it sort of.
688
00:34:03,374 --> 00:34:04,609
(clicking)
(gunshot)
689
00:34:04,709 --> 00:34:06,778
(upbeat music)
690
00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:07,612
♪ Check it out ♪
691
00:34:07,712 --> 00:34:09,881
- I want to apologize
to everybody.
692
00:34:09,947 --> 00:34:11,449
- I want to apologize.
693
00:34:11,549 --> 00:34:12,784
- I'm simply here to apologize.
694
00:34:12,884 --> 00:34:14,519
- I'm just genuinely sorry.
695
00:34:14,585 --> 00:34:15,553
I'm sorry.
696
00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:16,454
- I'm sorry.
697
00:34:16,554 --> 00:34:17,955
- I am so unbelievably sorry.
698
00:34:18,056 --> 00:34:19,223
- And I'm really sorry.
699
00:34:20,291 --> 00:34:22,193
- I beg for your forgiveness.
700
00:34:27,732 --> 00:34:29,400
- I just call it
consequence culture.
701
00:34:29,467 --> 00:34:32,870
It's when people make missteps
or mistakes and get caught,
702
00:34:32,937 --> 00:34:36,574
and have to face the
public court of opinion.
703
00:34:36,641 --> 00:34:40,745
Does it happen sometimes happen
to people who are innocent?
704
00:34:40,812 --> 00:34:44,816
Yes, and just like with
the judicial system,
705
00:34:44,916 --> 00:34:46,083
we have to address that.
706
00:34:46,150 --> 00:34:48,152
It just, it's not canceling.
707
00:34:48,252 --> 00:34:49,487
There's consequences.
708
00:34:49,587 --> 00:34:51,322
And sometimes the consequences
709
00:34:51,422 --> 00:34:53,091
for sexually harassing
women at your job
710
00:34:53,157 --> 00:34:54,559
is to lose that job.
711
00:34:54,625 --> 00:34:57,662
I'm sorry, but maybe you
shouldn't have grabbed her ass.
712
00:34:57,762 --> 00:34:59,163
- You say something offensive,
713
00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:01,265
and then you're offended
that people are offended.
714
00:35:01,332 --> 00:35:02,500
I don't know what's
wrong with you.
715
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:03,668
Stop saying offensive things.
716
00:35:03,768 --> 00:35:04,936
Stop saying stupid things.
717
00:35:05,002 --> 00:35:06,771
Stop saying racist things.
718
00:35:06,838 --> 00:35:09,107
- [Max] Kara Swisher does a lot.
719
00:35:09,173 --> 00:35:10,108
- All right, let's
answer some questions
720
00:35:10,174 --> 00:35:11,342
from the New York Times.
721
00:35:11,442 --> 00:35:13,111
I'm Editor at Large,
at New York magazine.
722
00:35:13,177 --> 00:35:14,011
What do I think will come out
723
00:35:14,112 --> 00:35:14,846
of these congressional hearings?
724
00:35:14,946 --> 00:35:15,680
Nothing.
725
00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:17,515
I do commentary for NBC.
726
00:35:17,615 --> 00:35:18,449
They make the market,
727
00:35:18,516 --> 00:35:20,017
and then they own the market.
728
00:35:20,118 --> 00:35:21,686
And I do podcasts for Vox media.
729
00:35:21,786 --> 00:35:24,188
I have a lot of content,
I make a lot of content.
730
00:35:24,288 --> 00:35:26,457
- [Max] She's also known
as one of Silicon Valley's
731
00:35:26,524 --> 00:35:29,160
most feared, but
respected journalists.
732
00:35:31,295 --> 00:35:32,697
- What would happen
is for years,
733
00:35:32,797 --> 00:35:34,699
people got to say these
things without any price.
734
00:35:34,799 --> 00:35:36,134
Other people who
never got to talk
735
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,635
are sick and tired
of listening to them,
736
00:35:37,702 --> 00:35:40,138
and they're sick and tired
of not having a voice too.
737
00:35:40,204 --> 00:35:44,809
And so they're saying your
voice on your elite platform
738
00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:46,444
has dominated for so long,
739
00:35:46,511 --> 00:35:47,979
and we don't want to
listen to you anymore.
740
00:35:48,045 --> 00:35:49,213
And we're gonna tell you why.
741
00:35:49,313 --> 00:35:51,983
And they're suddenly
like, I can't speak.
742
00:35:52,049 --> 00:35:54,652
People in power do not
willingly give up power.
743
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,053
You take it from them.
744
00:35:56,154 --> 00:35:57,989
And that's what's
happening right now.
745
00:35:58,055 --> 00:36:00,358
So it's gonna be
ugly for a while.
746
00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:11,502
- The best use of call
out culture for me
747
00:36:11,569 --> 00:36:14,839
is to help marginalized
people find a voice.
748
00:36:14,906 --> 00:36:17,842
And it's not so coincidental
at the same time,
749
00:36:17,909 --> 00:36:19,677
we're finding our voices,
750
00:36:19,744 --> 00:36:22,680
and calling out white
supremacy and the patriarchy,
751
00:36:22,747 --> 00:36:25,183
and ableism and homophobia
and transphobia,
752
00:36:25,249 --> 00:36:26,417
and all the isms,
753
00:36:26,517 --> 00:36:28,519
that now we're being criticized,
754
00:36:28,586 --> 00:36:30,354
and told that we're
lacking reason
755
00:36:30,421 --> 00:36:31,923
and we're lacking civility
756
00:36:32,023 --> 00:36:36,093
and we are suppressing free
speech and all that stuff.
757
00:36:36,194 --> 00:36:37,929
I think that we can use it,
758
00:36:38,029 --> 00:36:39,931
but we have to use
it judiciously.
759
00:36:40,031 --> 00:36:41,933
- [Monica] Loretta J
Ross has been fighting
760
00:36:42,033 --> 00:36:45,269
for human, civil, and
women's reproductive rights,
761
00:36:45,369 --> 00:36:46,771
her entire life,
762
00:36:46,871 --> 00:36:50,107
and has long been a luminary
in activist communities.
763
00:36:50,208 --> 00:36:52,376
She's also a professor
at Smith College,
764
00:36:52,443 --> 00:36:53,778
where she teaches courses
765
00:36:53,878 --> 00:36:57,181
on both intersectionality
and white supremacy.
766
00:36:58,549 --> 00:37:01,118
- I think call-outs are
wonderful when they're used
767
00:37:01,219 --> 00:37:04,455
to bring corporations
into accountability,
768
00:37:04,555 --> 00:37:07,558
to bring political figures
who are unreachable
769
00:37:07,625 --> 00:37:08,793
into accountability,
770
00:37:08,893 --> 00:37:12,530
because then public
shaming actually works.
771
00:37:12,597 --> 00:37:15,733
But public shaming of
people never is effective.
772
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,302
It doesn't really
take into account
773
00:37:18,402 --> 00:37:21,405
the humanity of the
person being called out.
774
00:37:21,472 --> 00:37:25,810
It doesn't set up any
kind of opportunity
775
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:28,579
to actually achieve
accountability.
776
00:37:28,646 --> 00:37:31,983
It's a way of trying to
hold people accountable,
777
00:37:32,083 --> 00:37:33,818
theoretically,
778
00:37:33,918 --> 00:37:37,922
but doing it in such
a publicly shaming way
779
00:37:37,989 --> 00:37:40,491
that you actually
achieve another goal,
780
00:37:40,591 --> 00:37:43,828
and that is to blow up
somebody else's life.
781
00:37:43,928 --> 00:37:46,163
- I think outrage is
one of those things
782
00:37:46,264 --> 00:37:49,100
that spreads very quickly
783
00:37:49,166 --> 00:37:53,571
and all too often, and I
include everyone in this,
784
00:37:53,638 --> 00:37:55,439
we don't do any research.
785
00:37:55,506 --> 00:37:58,109
We just sort of take this
person at face value,
786
00:37:58,175 --> 00:38:00,611
when they say this
outrageous thing happened
787
00:38:00,678 --> 00:38:03,447
and it just spreads.
788
00:38:16,027 --> 00:38:18,195
- This guy who did this picture.
789
00:38:18,296 --> 00:38:21,198
I think he either he
wanted Twitter followers
790
00:38:21,299 --> 00:38:24,502
or he wanted to be a part
of the movement somehow,
791
00:38:27,204 --> 00:38:31,475
but he kinda lost his
venom early in the fight.
792
00:38:31,542 --> 00:38:32,476
- We spoke to the man
793
00:38:32,543 --> 00:38:34,812
who originally posted
the picture on Twitter.
794
00:38:34,879 --> 00:38:36,547
He has since deleted his account
795
00:38:36,647 --> 00:38:38,716
and says he may
have gotten spun up
796
00:38:38,816 --> 00:38:41,552
about the interaction
and misinterpreted it.
797
00:38:41,652 --> 00:38:43,554
- That was a punch in
the gut, another one,
798
00:38:43,654 --> 00:38:46,824
but this couple
who re-posted it,
799
00:38:46,891 --> 00:38:48,893
recontacted SDGE,
800
00:38:48,993 --> 00:38:53,397
they never did, like
blew the picture up,
801
00:38:53,497 --> 00:38:56,033
changed the filter so you
could see my face more.
802
00:39:00,671 --> 00:39:03,074
Time is compounding the
803
00:39:03,174 --> 00:39:05,509
uncomfortable uneasiness
uncertainty
804
00:39:05,576 --> 00:39:08,546
that I'm feeling, because
now I'm running out of money.
805
00:39:08,646 --> 00:39:10,081
Right? I had some savings.
806
00:39:10,181 --> 00:39:13,884
I had a 401k, but
it's depleting.
807
00:39:13,984 --> 00:39:16,887
I've tried to downsize,
get a smaller place.
808
00:39:16,987 --> 00:39:19,090
And without a job
who rents to you?
809
00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:20,758
Nobody.
810
00:39:26,664 --> 00:39:27,932
(birds chirping)
811
00:39:28,032 --> 00:39:31,769
- [Jon] The problem with
social media justice
812
00:39:31,869 --> 00:39:34,772
is that we really want
to do the right thing.
813
00:39:34,872 --> 00:39:36,173
We really want to right wrongs,
814
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:40,411
and be moral, good,
ethical, empathetic people.
815
00:39:40,511 --> 00:39:43,581
But maybe because we
want that so much,
816
00:39:43,681 --> 00:39:47,618
sometimes it gets a little
bit dizzying and we, you know,
817
00:39:47,718 --> 00:39:50,354
tear somebody to
shreds on no evidence,
818
00:39:50,421 --> 00:39:51,956
not because we're
cruel and horrible,
819
00:39:52,056 --> 00:39:53,290
but because we want
to do the right thing,
820
00:39:53,391 --> 00:39:54,792
we want to do something good.
821
00:39:56,527 --> 00:39:59,463
- We used to have zap
squads where we'd go around
822
00:39:59,563 --> 00:40:02,266
and what would probably
now be called doxing,
823
00:40:02,366 --> 00:40:03,768
people who were rapists,
824
00:40:03,868 --> 00:40:05,436
who couldn't be
brought to account
825
00:40:05,536 --> 00:40:06,804
in the criminal justice system
826
00:40:06,904 --> 00:40:08,806
and we'd out them
in the community,
827
00:40:08,906 --> 00:40:11,475
like this person is a
rapist, don't hire them,
828
00:40:11,575 --> 00:40:12,943
that kind of thing.
829
00:40:13,043 --> 00:40:14,412
Lawyers used to get
really nervous
830
00:40:14,478 --> 00:40:16,814
around our tactics back then.
831
00:40:16,914 --> 00:40:18,482
We didn't pay any attention.
832
00:40:18,582 --> 00:40:20,418
We took a lot of
joy out of that.
833
00:40:21,385 --> 00:40:21,986
Almost,
834
00:40:22,086 --> 00:40:23,821
and that's why I
tend to describe
835
00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:25,456
the whole call-out culture,
836
00:40:25,556 --> 00:40:27,992
having more than a
tinge of sadism in it,
837
00:40:28,092 --> 00:40:33,097
because I do remember the
joy of calling out people.
838
00:40:33,431 --> 00:40:35,466
I cringe thinking about
839
00:40:35,566 --> 00:40:37,935
how much satisfaction
I got out of that.
840
00:40:43,741 --> 00:40:47,077
- There are studies that show
that dopamine is released
841
00:40:47,144 --> 00:40:49,947
when we see a transgressor
being punished.
842
00:40:51,348 --> 00:40:52,616
You see now, I think
it's possible
843
00:40:52,683 --> 00:40:54,485
that we just are chasing
844
00:40:54,585 --> 00:40:56,487
that kind of hit that we get
845
00:40:56,587 --> 00:40:59,323
when we see someone that we've
perceived to be a wrongdoer,
846
00:40:59,423 --> 00:41:01,292
get that kind of comeuppance.
847
00:41:04,295 --> 00:41:06,697
- People talk a lot
about moral outrage.
848
00:41:06,797 --> 00:41:09,867
They talk about injustice.
849
00:41:09,967 --> 00:41:11,869
You know what they're
not really talking about
850
00:41:11,969 --> 00:41:13,103
is the pleasure.
851
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:19,844
They're not talking
about why we might
852
00:41:19,944 --> 00:41:21,545
get something from
this experience
853
00:41:21,645 --> 00:41:24,114
that is more than morality,
854
00:41:24,181 --> 00:41:25,883
but is actually just about fun.
855
00:41:25,983 --> 00:41:28,519
You know, why do we
want to be spectators
856
00:41:28,619 --> 00:41:30,387
of these terrible pile-ons?
857
00:41:30,488 --> 00:41:34,225
Perhaps the answer is what I
study, which is Schadenfreude.
858
00:41:36,694 --> 00:41:37,561
- [Max] Tiffany Watt Smith
859
00:41:37,661 --> 00:41:40,064
is also one of the
world's leading experts
860
00:41:40,164 --> 00:41:42,566
in Schadenfreude.
861
00:41:42,666 --> 00:41:47,471
- Schaden, from damage, Freude,
from joy, Schadenfreude.
862
00:41:48,506 --> 00:41:49,406
It's okay.
863
00:41:49,507 --> 00:41:50,741
The pleasure that you get
864
00:41:50,841 --> 00:41:52,910
in seeing someone
else's misfortune.
865
00:41:55,179 --> 00:41:57,548
We feel a lot of
Schadenfreude around envy.
866
00:41:57,648 --> 00:42:00,251
You know, when all these
people who are better than us
867
00:42:00,351 --> 00:42:01,652
and better looking than
us and richer than us,
868
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,054
and they get taken
down a peg or two,
869
00:42:04,154 --> 00:42:06,857
and that sort of makes us
feel good in that moment.
870
00:42:07,758 --> 00:42:10,394
We see these extraordinary
871
00:42:10,494 --> 00:42:13,764
curated images of
people's lives.
872
00:42:13,864 --> 00:42:15,232
And of course, we
compare ourselves to them
873
00:42:15,332 --> 00:42:17,501
and we feel like losers.
874
00:42:17,568 --> 00:42:18,936
And of course,
875
00:42:19,036 --> 00:42:22,940
a community of losers is
exactly the kind of community
876
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,776
that wants that hit
of Schadenfreude,
877
00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:30,347
that wants to feel that
ersatz moment of superiority.
878
00:42:30,414 --> 00:42:32,616
(shouting)
879
00:42:35,853 --> 00:42:38,222
(rock music)
880
00:42:41,859 --> 00:42:43,761
There were these
Dutch psychologists
881
00:42:43,861 --> 00:42:47,131
and they got football
fans to allow their faces
882
00:42:47,231 --> 00:42:51,268
to be rigged up with
electromyography pads.
883
00:42:51,368 --> 00:42:52,703
And they show these
football fans,
884
00:42:52,770 --> 00:42:55,306
videos of their own
team scoring a goal.
885
00:42:56,206 --> 00:42:57,308
And as you'd expect,
886
00:42:57,408 --> 00:42:59,643
everyone was pleased
and smiled and so on.
887
00:42:59,743 --> 00:43:01,812
And then they showed them videos
888
00:43:01,912 --> 00:43:04,648
of their arch rival
missing goals.
889
00:43:05,382 --> 00:43:08,786
(crowd cheering)
890
00:43:08,886 --> 00:43:11,822
At those videos, that's when
they smiled most broadly,
891
00:43:11,922 --> 00:43:13,157
and most quickly,
892
00:43:13,257 --> 00:43:15,626
it wasn't seeing their
own teams score a goal,
893
00:43:15,726 --> 00:43:18,228
it was seeing their
rivals miss a goal.
894
00:43:19,063 --> 00:43:21,165
(crowd cheering)
895
00:43:21,265 --> 00:43:22,800
What that experiment shows
896
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:25,669
is that we enjoy seeing
other people fail
897
00:43:25,769 --> 00:43:28,238
more than we enjoy
winning ourselves.
898
00:43:29,607 --> 00:43:33,310
- [Max] I don't know much about
European soccer rivalries,
899
00:43:33,410 --> 00:43:35,813
but we've got a
rivalry here in the US
900
00:43:35,913 --> 00:43:38,115
that's been heating
up for decades.
901
00:43:39,083 --> 00:43:40,818
(cheering and applause)
902
00:43:40,918 --> 00:43:42,186
- [Crowd] U-S-A!
903
00:43:42,286 --> 00:43:43,921
- Freedom!
904
00:43:45,623 --> 00:43:47,524
- What's being found
over and over again
905
00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:50,527
is that Schadenfreude
is at its most intense
906
00:43:50,628 --> 00:43:54,198
when we are divided
into rival tribes.
907
00:43:55,966 --> 00:43:58,202
And that's a very,
very dangerous place
908
00:43:58,302 --> 00:43:59,637
for a society to be in.
909
00:44:00,938 --> 00:44:03,474
(dog barking)
910
00:44:04,942 --> 00:44:08,846
- My husband is a Republican.
911
00:44:08,946 --> 00:44:12,182
My brother's incredibly
conservative.
912
00:44:12,282 --> 00:44:15,219
I am incredibly liberal.
913
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:18,555
And somehow we learn
how to coexist.
914
00:44:21,191 --> 00:44:25,062
Even though you are at
political ends of the spectrum,
915
00:44:25,162 --> 00:44:27,031
they're still your
friends and family,
916
00:44:27,131 --> 00:44:28,699
and they make fun of you,
917
00:44:28,799 --> 00:44:29,900
and just sort of rip on you.
918
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,202
It's like this sort of
a blue-collar thing.
919
00:44:32,302 --> 00:44:34,204
When people give it to me,
I can dish it right back,
920
00:44:34,304 --> 00:44:35,406
and it's just, it's funny.
921
00:44:35,506 --> 00:44:38,409
- How'd you get the camera, I
thought he was the director.
922
00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:40,044
- Shut up.
923
00:44:40,144 --> 00:44:44,848
- I wanted to be in politics,
helping women electeds.
924
00:44:47,184 --> 00:44:49,586
I had almost 10 years working
925
00:44:49,687 --> 00:44:54,258
for these amazing female
elected officials.
926
00:44:54,358 --> 00:44:55,225
And through that,
927
00:44:55,325 --> 00:44:58,028
I was able to plan my next step.
928
00:44:59,196 --> 00:45:03,100
I had a passion for
cancer advocacy.
929
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,571
My father died at a very
young age from throat cancer.
930
00:45:07,671 --> 00:45:09,907
I wanted to work in the field,
931
00:45:10,007 --> 00:45:13,343
advocating for cancer patients
trying to get funding.
932
00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:14,211
And I did that.
933
00:45:17,715 --> 00:45:21,785
I used Facebook and my
Facebook was mostly my kids.
934
00:45:23,353 --> 00:45:25,289
My settings I have
it set to private.
935
00:45:26,523 --> 00:45:28,292
Mostly everybody
was someone I knew
936
00:45:28,392 --> 00:45:32,262
or had some sort of
interaction with.
937
00:45:32,362 --> 00:45:36,633
I didn't have any
strangers on my page,
938
00:45:36,734 --> 00:45:39,737
which makes all of
this more strange.
939
00:45:46,610 --> 00:45:47,644
Okay, I did.
940
00:45:47,745 --> 00:45:49,279
Sorry, someone told me I could-
941
00:45:49,379 --> 00:45:52,116
That morning that the
incident happened,
942
00:45:52,216 --> 00:45:53,784
the only reason why I
was even on social media,
943
00:45:53,884 --> 00:45:55,986
because I was trying
to source toilet paper
944
00:45:56,086 --> 00:45:57,421
from mommy groups.
945
00:45:58,422 --> 00:45:59,656
As I go on social media,
946
00:45:59,757 --> 00:46:04,628
I see all these articles
about the disbelief
947
00:46:04,728 --> 00:46:08,298
that there was a need for
ventilators in New York state.
948
00:46:08,398 --> 00:46:10,667
And I got annoyed.
949
00:46:10,768 --> 00:46:12,836
And so I posted the articles,
950
00:46:12,936 --> 00:46:14,004
and I just wrote,
951
00:46:14,104 --> 00:46:17,307
(keyboard keys clicking)
952
00:46:17,407 --> 00:46:18,442
(digital chime)
953
00:46:21,278 --> 00:46:22,246
(digital chime)
954
00:46:23,447 --> 00:46:26,350
(keyboard keys clicking)
955
00:46:26,450 --> 00:46:27,351
(digital chime)
956
00:46:27,451 --> 00:46:28,786
and I see, you know,
957
00:46:28,852 --> 00:46:31,655
a friend says
"this isn't real."
958
00:46:31,755 --> 00:46:33,957
Like fine, if you
don't think it's real,
959
00:46:34,024 --> 00:46:35,159
don't go to the hospital.
960
00:46:35,259 --> 00:46:36,126
(keyboard keys clicking)
961
00:46:36,193 --> 00:46:37,161
(digital chime)
962
00:46:38,195 --> 00:46:41,532
And then my kids were
clamoring at the door.
963
00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:44,168
I went outside for a little bit.
964
00:46:45,803 --> 00:46:50,774
And when I came back,
everything was just
965
00:46:52,442 --> 00:46:53,510
lit up.
966
00:46:55,646 --> 00:47:00,551
I was tagged by someone who
was in my Facebook friends.
967
00:47:03,687 --> 00:47:05,689
He had given this commentary
968
00:47:05,789 --> 00:47:08,525
to someone who's
a public figure.
969
00:47:08,625 --> 00:47:12,362
My friends were telling
me it's Michael Caputo,
970
00:47:12,462 --> 00:47:15,165
who's going after you and
971
00:47:16,633 --> 00:47:17,701
then I got scared.
972
00:47:17,801 --> 00:47:19,069
- [Caputo] People like you,
973
00:47:19,169 --> 00:47:21,705
who sit here and take
uncorroborated testimony.
974
00:47:21,805 --> 00:47:24,241
- I knew how
vicious he could be.
975
00:47:24,341 --> 00:47:27,578
- Decent man, and ruin him
because it gets you ratings.
976
00:47:27,678 --> 00:47:28,912
Enough of that.
977
00:47:30,347 --> 00:47:32,983
- I knew he had
thousands of followers.
978
00:47:42,359 --> 00:47:45,762
Then I start to get calls
and I'm getting text messages
979
00:47:45,863 --> 00:47:47,397
from people I don't know,
980
00:47:47,497 --> 00:47:51,168
and it's like literally my
whole world is vibrating.
981
00:47:53,370 --> 00:47:56,506
I issue an apology right away.
982
00:48:00,711 --> 00:48:03,881
But the frenzy
just kept growing.
983
00:48:06,016 --> 00:48:08,585
I would see people
making comments
984
00:48:08,685 --> 00:48:11,955
saying she has a bot
operation on her.
985
00:48:13,690 --> 00:48:17,461
Michael Caputo kept
tagging my employer.
986
00:48:19,863 --> 00:48:24,735
And then our newspaper did
a story saying I was fired.
987
00:48:27,738 --> 00:48:29,706
And that's how I
found out I was fired.
988
00:48:34,211 --> 00:48:37,114
I was at the bottom
of this avalanche,
989
00:48:37,214 --> 00:48:39,416
except I didn't know
I was in an avalanche,
990
00:48:41,418 --> 00:48:43,754
and I was immediately
so humiliated.
991
00:48:47,724 --> 00:48:49,493
I went to a dark place.
992
00:48:55,132 --> 00:48:59,937
I just became this comedic
thing on the internet.
993
00:49:01,571 --> 00:49:04,007
And people were just
tearing me apart.
994
00:49:08,946 --> 00:49:12,616
- [Max] Laura made a bad joke
that offended a lot of people,
995
00:49:13,784 --> 00:49:17,354
but how much of that
outrage was even real?
996
00:49:25,262 --> 00:49:30,200
- So in the earlier days of
organized online hate mobs,
997
00:49:30,667 --> 00:49:36,039
we saw the use of fake
accounts and bots.
998
00:49:36,139 --> 00:49:37,374
- [Monica] Yasmin Green heads up
999
00:49:37,474 --> 00:49:39,543
research and
development at Jigsaw,
1000
00:49:39,643 --> 00:49:42,279
which is an independent
unit within Google,
1001
00:49:42,346 --> 00:49:45,215
dedicated to solving
toxicity on the internet.
1002
00:49:45,315 --> 00:49:47,551
- Then we started
to see fake accounts
1003
00:49:47,651 --> 00:49:49,553
with a little bit of
investment in them,
1004
00:49:49,653 --> 00:49:50,854
you know a lot of photos.
1005
00:49:50,954 --> 00:49:53,223
They had presence on
different platforms.
1006
00:49:53,323 --> 00:49:54,891
The major platforms actually
got quite good at spotting
1007
00:49:54,992 --> 00:49:56,560
when there was fake accounts,
1008
00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:59,062
or when somebody was operating
in a different country
1009
00:49:59,162 --> 00:50:00,697
to the one they
were claiming to be.
1010
00:50:00,797 --> 00:50:02,733
The way this is evolved is,
1011
00:50:02,833 --> 00:50:06,370
kind of worries me for our
ability to be able to detect it.
1012
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:09,406
And that is because
the new innovation is,
1013
00:50:09,506 --> 00:50:11,408
and I saw this in the troll
farms in the Philippines,
1014
00:50:11,508 --> 00:50:14,378
is that rather than trying
to buy fake accounts,
1015
00:50:14,478 --> 00:50:16,046
or create fake accounts,
1016
00:50:16,146 --> 00:50:19,750
they were starting to rent
the accounts of real people.
1017
00:50:19,850 --> 00:50:21,918
And once either
you convince people
1018
00:50:22,019 --> 00:50:24,588
to do this type of
thing in their own name,
1019
00:50:24,688 --> 00:50:28,525
you understand that this is a
threat that is not going away.
1020
00:50:31,495 --> 00:50:32,929
- Two, three days later,
1021
00:50:34,197 --> 00:50:36,566
I think it's gonna die down.
1022
00:50:36,666 --> 00:50:38,268
Then I get a call from a friend
1023
00:50:38,368 --> 00:50:40,937
that says you were on
Sean Hannity last night.
1024
00:50:42,339 --> 00:50:43,573
I said, oh great.
1025
00:50:43,673 --> 00:50:45,609
- So many villains
to choose from sadly
1026
00:50:45,709 --> 00:50:47,277
in the midst of a
national emergency.
1027
00:50:47,377 --> 00:50:50,280
But well, there are
two hospital executives
1028
00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:51,915
hoping that Donald
Trump's supporters
1029
00:50:52,015 --> 00:50:53,950
get infected with coronavirus.
1030
00:50:54,051 --> 00:50:56,019
- One exec wrote, quoting here,
1031
00:50:56,086 --> 00:50:57,454
Trump supporters need to pledge
1032
00:50:57,554 --> 00:51:00,123
to give up their ventilators
for someone else.
1033
00:51:00,223 --> 00:51:01,291
- First of all,
1034
00:51:01,391 --> 00:51:03,627
the fact that
hospital executives
1035
00:51:03,727 --> 00:51:06,129
are wishing an
illness on anyone.
1036
00:51:06,229 --> 00:51:08,598
- [Laura] The story
starts to proliferate
1037
00:51:08,698 --> 00:51:11,935
into larger media markets.
1038
00:51:12,035 --> 00:51:14,971
- A high ranking Roswell
Park employee has been fired
1039
00:51:15,072 --> 00:51:16,139
following negative comments
1040
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,276
that the person made on
social media about supporters.
1041
00:51:19,376 --> 00:51:23,313
- That was the story
that got regurgitated
1042
00:51:24,414 --> 00:51:26,650
into all the national
media outlets.
1043
00:51:26,750 --> 00:51:29,252
The Hill ran that story.
1044
00:51:30,921 --> 00:51:33,990
(digital chimes)
1045
00:51:34,091 --> 00:51:37,961
And then that same article
was then regurgitated
1046
00:51:38,061 --> 00:51:42,399
and bastardized in these
alt-right websites.
1047
00:51:43,266 --> 00:51:45,168
They got a lot of play.
1048
00:51:45,268 --> 00:51:46,503
The commentary
1049
00:51:48,138 --> 00:51:49,306
on the page, I mean,
they were getting
1050
00:51:49,406 --> 00:51:53,176
thousands of comments
on their article.
1051
00:51:53,276 --> 00:51:56,680
I feel like I was
just clickbait.
1052
00:51:59,449 --> 00:52:02,586
- Trolling women is big
business on the internet.
1053
00:52:02,652 --> 00:52:05,689
I mean, there's an
incredible amount of profit
1054
00:52:05,789 --> 00:52:09,526
to be made from the
distortion and control
1055
00:52:09,626 --> 00:52:11,661
of people's lives.
1056
00:52:11,761 --> 00:52:13,196
- [Max] Safiya
Noble is a Professor
1057
00:52:13,296 --> 00:52:16,700
of African-American and
Gender Studies at UCLA,
1058
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,703
a board member of the cyber
civil rights initiative,
1059
00:52:19,803 --> 00:52:22,372
and the author of
Algorithms of Oppression.
1060
00:52:23,773 --> 00:52:26,042
- Clicking on those stories,
reading those stories
1061
00:52:26,143 --> 00:52:28,945
is a money generator
for those platforms.
1062
00:52:29,012 --> 00:52:31,681
And the more they
can spin that story
1063
00:52:31,781 --> 00:52:35,352
in a shameful, degrading,
titillating way,
1064
00:52:35,452 --> 00:52:37,354
the more money
they're gonna make.
1065
00:52:37,454 --> 00:52:38,855
So we want to always remember
1066
00:52:38,955 --> 00:52:41,725
that across all
internet platforms
1067
00:52:41,825 --> 00:52:43,860
engagement is the
business model.
1068
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,196
If the engagement
is around misogyny,
1069
00:52:46,296 --> 00:52:47,731
that's just as profitable
1070
00:52:47,831 --> 00:52:50,200
as if the engagement
is around education
1071
00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:52,969
or some other type
of entertainment.
1072
00:52:53,036 --> 00:52:57,474
This is the big money-making
model of the internet.
1073
00:53:00,177 --> 00:53:02,579
(soft music)
1074
00:53:04,981 --> 00:53:07,584
(birds chirping)
1075
00:53:07,684 --> 00:53:09,886
- [Max] Tristan Harris
used to work at Google,
1076
00:53:09,986 --> 00:53:13,223
but then he had a crisis
of faith, left the company,
1077
00:53:13,323 --> 00:53:16,259
and started the Center
for Humane Technology.
1078
00:53:16,359 --> 00:53:17,894
The Atlantic once called him
1079
00:53:17,994 --> 00:53:21,565
the closest thing Silicon
Valley has to a conscience.
1080
00:53:21,665 --> 00:53:23,433
If someone could
tell us how big tech
1081
00:53:23,533 --> 00:53:26,770
is making money off of
our humiliation, it's him.
1082
00:53:27,904 --> 00:53:29,339
- So, you know,
1083
00:53:29,406 --> 00:53:31,107
how does the business model
relate to these problems?
1084
00:53:31,208 --> 00:53:32,409
Well, how much have you paid
1085
00:53:32,509 --> 00:53:33,843
for your Facebook
account recently?
1086
00:53:35,178 --> 00:53:35,912
Or Twitter?
1087
00:53:36,012 --> 00:53:37,080
Well, if you haven't
paid anything,
1088
00:53:37,180 --> 00:53:40,617
then what are they making
$500 billion of market value
1089
00:53:40,717 --> 00:53:42,452
and their stock price from?
1090
00:53:42,552 --> 00:53:43,787
Well, they're selling
human attention,
1091
00:53:43,887 --> 00:53:46,022
because the business
model is advertising,
1092
00:53:47,891 --> 00:53:49,125
but it's not just that
1093
00:53:49,226 --> 00:53:51,628
they want to show you
a rectangle with an ad.
1094
00:53:51,728 --> 00:53:53,296
To get you to see those ads,
1095
00:53:53,396 --> 00:53:55,265
it means they have to
get your attention.
1096
00:53:55,365 --> 00:53:58,301
So one study from NYU found
1097
00:53:58,401 --> 00:54:00,804
that for every word
of moral outrage,
1098
00:54:00,904 --> 00:54:03,807
negative, moral emotions,
that you added to a tweet,
1099
00:54:03,907 --> 00:54:07,310
it's horrible, it's a
disgrace, it's an abomination,
1100
00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:10,880
it increased the
retweet rate by 13%.
1101
00:54:12,382 --> 00:54:13,984
It's not like at Twitter
there's just Jack Dorsey,
1102
00:54:14,084 --> 00:54:15,151
sitting at the top,
1103
00:54:15,252 --> 00:54:17,153
thinking that tweet, I'll
promote that tweet over there.
1104
00:54:17,254 --> 00:54:18,455
And this that's a good one,
1105
00:54:18,555 --> 00:54:20,156
I'll promote that
tweet over there.
1106
00:54:20,257 --> 00:54:22,726
In fact, the reason these tech
companies are so profitable,
1107
00:54:22,792 --> 00:54:24,327
is that a machine is choosing
1108
00:54:24,427 --> 00:54:26,896
which tweets to show at
the very top of the list.
1109
00:54:28,431 --> 00:54:31,301
If you think about you
driving down the highway,
1110
00:54:31,401 --> 00:54:33,003
and you had a computer
that was like, okay,
1111
00:54:33,103 --> 00:54:34,671
what does this person want?
1112
00:54:34,771 --> 00:54:35,839
And we're gonna determine that
1113
00:54:35,939 --> 00:54:37,507
based on what
their eyes look at.
1114
00:54:37,607 --> 00:54:39,142
Well, when you drive
down a highway,
1115
00:54:39,242 --> 00:54:40,510
suddenly there's a big car crash
1116
00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:41,845
and your eye just like stares
1117
00:54:41,945 --> 00:54:43,513
at this car crash as you go by,
1118
00:54:43,613 --> 00:54:45,915
the computer says, oh, I know
this person wants car crashes.
1119
00:54:45,982 --> 00:54:47,350
And they start
feeding you car crash
1120
00:54:47,450 --> 00:54:49,653
after car crash after car crash.
1121
00:54:49,753 --> 00:54:51,855
And that's what the
Twitter algorithm is like.
1122
00:54:51,955 --> 00:54:56,526
(upbeat orchestral music)
1123
00:54:56,626 --> 00:54:58,194
- One of the things
we want to understand
1124
00:54:58,295 --> 00:54:59,529
is that the way most people
1125
00:54:59,629 --> 00:55:03,166
think of algorithms
or kind of AI systems,
1126
00:55:03,266 --> 00:55:04,868
is most people think of these
1127
00:55:04,968 --> 00:55:07,537
as being just neutral
and objective.
1128
00:55:07,637 --> 00:55:09,339
But you see what
they're interested in
1129
00:55:09,439 --> 00:55:13,543
is drawing eyeballs to
material in their platforms.
1130
00:55:13,643 --> 00:55:17,280
(uptempo orchestral music)
1131
00:55:19,616 --> 00:55:21,518
- They kind of created
this Frankenstein.
1132
00:55:21,618 --> 00:55:23,687
All it knows is, oh,
if that gets attention,
1133
00:55:23,787 --> 00:55:25,355
then my job is to elevate it,
1134
00:55:25,455 --> 00:55:27,157
make sure everyone
sees that thing.
1135
00:55:28,992 --> 00:55:31,394
I often think about being a kid
1136
00:55:31,494 --> 00:55:32,395
on the playgrounds, you know,
1137
00:55:32,495 --> 00:55:33,897
when you see the two kids
1138
00:55:33,997 --> 00:55:36,066
kind of just barely start
to disagree with each other,
1139
00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:37,867
and some third kid
shows up and goes,
1140
00:55:37,967 --> 00:55:39,869
fight, fight, fight, fight.
1141
00:55:39,969 --> 00:55:41,404
Well, that's like Twitter.
1142
00:55:42,472 --> 00:55:44,708
(dramatic orchestral music)
1143
00:55:44,808 --> 00:55:48,211
- The algorithmic
bias is really about
1144
00:55:48,311 --> 00:55:51,581
looking for titillating
kinds of content.
1145
00:55:51,681 --> 00:55:53,416
And much of that is racist,
1146
00:55:53,516 --> 00:55:56,586
it's sexist, it's inflammatory.
1147
00:55:56,686 --> 00:55:59,389
(dramatic orchestral music)
1148
00:55:59,489 --> 00:56:01,324
And it's also a big business.
1149
00:56:02,992 --> 00:56:04,260
- You think about
outrage as an emotion.
1150
00:56:04,361 --> 00:56:05,729
It causes you to shut down
1151
00:56:05,829 --> 00:56:08,231
and act more reactively
and impulsively.
1152
00:56:08,331 --> 00:56:10,600
And usually in that
reactive action,
1153
00:56:10,700 --> 00:56:12,769
we're not gonna like yell
at the plant in our room,
1154
00:56:12,869 --> 00:56:14,738
we're gonna hit the
button that's available
1155
00:56:14,838 --> 00:56:17,107
to show other people
why we're right.
1156
00:56:19,075 --> 00:56:22,112
- And the more that people
look at it and click on it,
1157
00:56:22,212 --> 00:56:23,713
the more those companies make.
1158
00:56:25,215 --> 00:56:28,618
- I say why I'm angry, I'm
contributing more content.
1159
00:56:28,718 --> 00:56:30,453
You didn't have to
pay me for that.
1160
00:56:33,757 --> 00:56:36,459
So I'm a useful idiot in a scam
1161
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:39,295
to create more attention
for everyone else.
1162
00:56:39,396 --> 00:56:42,098
(dramatic orchestral music)
1163
00:56:42,198 --> 00:56:45,301
You run that algorithm
for three to 10 years,
1164
00:56:45,402 --> 00:56:48,571
and you let society run
through that washing machine.
1165
00:56:49,873 --> 00:56:53,276
That dystopia is exactly the
world that we live in now.
1166
00:56:53,376 --> 00:56:56,646
We're more profitable if
we're addicted, outraged,
1167
00:56:56,746 --> 00:56:59,449
irritable, disinformed,
and polarized,
1168
00:56:59,549 --> 00:57:00,884
than if we're a human being.
1169
00:57:02,085 --> 00:57:05,755
(dramatic orchestral music)
1170
00:57:12,762 --> 00:57:15,432
(water burbles)
1171
00:57:33,283 --> 00:57:34,150
- Okay, so there are
a couple of things
1172
00:57:34,250 --> 00:57:36,486
that we have to understand.
1173
00:57:36,586 --> 00:57:40,023
When you pick up your
phone, when you log on,
1174
00:57:40,123 --> 00:57:42,358
it's not just a transaction,
1175
00:57:42,459 --> 00:57:45,662
you're actually going somewhere.
1176
00:57:45,762 --> 00:57:47,330
And the place that you're going
1177
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:51,267
is a powerful
psychological space.
1178
00:57:53,269 --> 00:57:54,871
- [Max] Mary Aiken
is one of the world's
1179
00:57:54,971 --> 00:57:58,508
leading experts in
forensic cyber psychology.
1180
00:57:58,608 --> 00:58:00,043
She works with Interpol,
1181
00:58:00,143 --> 00:58:02,345
the European Cyber Crime Center,
1182
00:58:02,445 --> 00:58:04,180
and the United States government
1183
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,884
to help track down cyber
criminals around the world.
1184
00:58:07,984 --> 00:58:11,187
- Human behavior changes online.
1185
00:58:11,287 --> 00:58:16,226
There are powerful psychological
drivers, or effects,
1186
00:58:16,559 --> 00:58:19,896
like the online
disinhibition effect.
1187
00:58:19,996 --> 00:58:23,900
Online disinhibition
is like inebriation,
1188
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,635
or being drunk online.
1189
00:58:26,836 --> 00:58:28,805
It means that you
do things online
1190
00:58:28,872 --> 00:58:30,974
that you wouldn't do
in the real world.
1191
00:58:32,642 --> 00:58:35,478
As we're given opportunities
to have platforms
1192
00:58:35,545 --> 00:58:39,883
where we can actively
target people relentlessly,
1193
00:58:39,983 --> 00:58:44,721
what we've seen is
decreasing levels of empathy
1194
00:58:44,821 --> 00:58:48,424
in students surveyed
across the US,
1195
00:58:48,525 --> 00:58:51,427
and increasing
levels of narcissism.
1196
00:58:55,899 --> 00:58:59,736
As we continue our
journey with technology,
1197
00:58:59,836 --> 00:59:02,405
I think the most important thing
1198
00:59:02,505 --> 00:59:06,576
is that we remember
what it is to be human.
1199
00:59:06,676 --> 00:59:11,080
If however, we see the
rise of the narcissists
1200
00:59:11,180 --> 00:59:14,450
then we're going to
1201
00:59:14,551 --> 00:59:19,522
live in a very ugly
society going forward.
1202
00:59:21,357 --> 00:59:24,694
- [Amy] Welcome to Democracy
Now, democracynow.org.
1203
00:59:24,761 --> 00:59:25,929
I'm Amy Goodman.
1204
00:59:26,029 --> 00:59:29,465
Michael Caputo, a long-time
Republican political operative,
1205
00:59:29,566 --> 00:59:31,434
and Trump ally was
appointed last week
1206
00:59:31,534 --> 00:59:34,637
as Assistant Secretary
for Public Affairs at HHS.
1207
00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:41,277
- Michael Caputo, who
managed the effort against me
1208
00:59:42,378 --> 00:59:45,715
was appointed to
the White House.
1209
00:59:46,816 --> 00:59:48,818
- [Reporter] Michael Caputo
has no health background,
1210
00:59:48,918 --> 00:59:51,220
no science background
whatsoever,
1211
00:59:51,287 --> 00:59:52,789
but in April, the
Trump White House
1212
00:59:52,889 --> 00:59:54,824
installed him as
the top spokesperson
1213
00:59:54,924 --> 00:59:57,160
at the Department of
Health and Human Services.
1214
00:59:57,260 --> 00:59:58,928
- Department of Health
and Human Services'
1215
00:59:58,995 --> 01:00:01,764
new spokesperson repeatedly
made racist comments
1216
01:00:01,831 --> 01:00:03,833
about Chinese people
and claimed Democrats
1217
01:00:03,933 --> 01:00:06,269
wanted the coronavirus
to kill thousands.
1218
01:00:09,105 --> 01:00:11,107
- His employer said, so what?
1219
01:00:16,112 --> 01:00:18,848
And he said, so what?
1220
01:00:18,948 --> 01:00:20,617
So what I said these things?
1221
01:00:23,953 --> 01:00:25,355
- A really bad,
1222
01:00:25,455 --> 01:00:28,024
and I think probably
unexpected consequence
1223
01:00:28,124 --> 01:00:30,526
of the over use of public
shaming as a weapon
1224
01:00:30,627 --> 01:00:33,196
is that some
transgressors are mutated
1225
01:00:33,296 --> 01:00:34,998
to become impervious to shame.
1226
01:00:36,633 --> 01:00:39,535
- If you look at
Darwinian principles
1227
01:00:39,636 --> 01:00:42,205
of survival of the fittest,
1228
01:00:42,305 --> 01:00:46,876
what we're looking at is
survival of the shameless.
1229
01:00:46,976 --> 01:00:49,679
- Some trolls are misogynists,
some are homophobes,
1230
01:00:49,779 --> 01:00:52,548
some are genuinely cruel.
1231
01:00:52,649 --> 01:00:54,317
The challenge is
that you rarely know
1232
01:00:54,384 --> 01:00:57,520
which flavor of troll they are,
1233
01:00:57,620 --> 01:01:00,323
and which are going
1234
01:01:00,390 --> 01:01:02,392
to take it too far
1235
01:01:02,492 --> 01:01:05,461
and bring it off of the
internet and into the world.
1236
01:01:12,635 --> 01:01:13,836
- [Taylor] I had applied
to eight different
1237
01:01:13,903 --> 01:01:15,038
colleges and universities,
1238
01:01:15,138 --> 01:01:18,241
and I got a text message from
my mom in my English class
1239
01:01:18,341 --> 01:01:19,676
in my senior year saying,
1240
01:01:19,742 --> 01:01:21,577
"I have one more school
for you to apply to,
1241
01:01:21,678 --> 01:01:23,379
and it's American University."
1242
01:01:23,479 --> 01:01:25,715
And so I got to see American
University's campus.
1243
01:01:25,815 --> 01:01:28,418
And I walked around the
quad and I was able to see
1244
01:01:29,352 --> 01:01:30,887
myself there and to really think
1245
01:01:30,987 --> 01:01:33,723
like I could definitely
just sit out on the grass
1246
01:01:33,823 --> 01:01:35,725
and just relax, like
a college student.
1247
01:01:35,825 --> 01:01:37,260
And I applied to American,
1248
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,328
and that ended up
being my first choice.
1249
01:01:40,863 --> 01:01:42,565
As a black student at AU,
1250
01:01:42,665 --> 01:01:44,600
I was gonna put
in a bunch of work
1251
01:01:44,701 --> 01:01:46,269
to try and make sure
that the university
1252
01:01:46,369 --> 01:01:48,838
was a better place than
the place that I came into.
1253
01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:51,874
I was Vice President
for Student Advocates
1254
01:01:51,941 --> 01:01:53,242
for Native Communities.
1255
01:01:53,342 --> 01:01:56,612
I was involved in the
Black Student Alliance.
1256
01:01:56,713 --> 01:01:58,281
- So much of who she is today
1257
01:01:58,381 --> 01:02:01,384
is who she was when
she was growing up.
1258
01:02:01,451 --> 01:02:03,052
- When I was in
elementary school,
1259
01:02:03,119 --> 01:02:04,620
I wanted to be an astronaut,
1260
01:02:04,721 --> 01:02:05,955
but I'm actually
afraid of heights,
1261
01:02:06,055 --> 01:02:08,224
so that kind of
went out the window.
1262
01:02:08,291 --> 01:02:11,627
- [Kim] We always were
ready to prepare her
1263
01:02:11,728 --> 01:02:14,397
for understanding who she was.
1264
01:02:14,464 --> 01:02:16,899
- [Taylor] My dad's mom went
to the March on Washington.
1265
01:02:16,966 --> 01:02:19,635
My grandmother did
sit-ins with SNCC.
1266
01:02:19,736 --> 01:02:21,270
- Whether that meant
understanding
1267
01:02:21,370 --> 01:02:23,139
her own family roots
1268
01:02:23,239 --> 01:02:24,574
or understanding
the accomplishments
1269
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,110
of people of color.
1270
01:02:27,210 --> 01:02:29,445
- I came from a long
line of freedom fighters,
1271
01:02:29,545 --> 01:02:32,081
and that was what I really
was interested in doing.
1272
01:02:33,416 --> 01:02:34,617
I became a member
1273
01:02:34,717 --> 01:02:35,818
of Alpha Kappa Alpha
Sorority Incorporated.
1274
01:02:35,918 --> 01:02:38,554
And I became the intercultural
Greek Collective President.
1275
01:02:38,621 --> 01:02:40,123
By the time that I was a junior,
1276
01:02:40,223 --> 01:02:42,158
I was like, okay but
like what's next?
1277
01:02:42,258 --> 01:02:44,427
And I decided that
I needed to run
1278
01:02:44,494 --> 01:02:46,262
for Student
Government President.
1279
01:02:46,329 --> 01:02:47,563
I remember stopping students
1280
01:02:47,630 --> 01:02:48,831
that were just walking
on the way to class.
1281
01:02:48,931 --> 01:02:50,333
Hey, hold on a second.
1282
01:02:50,433 --> 01:02:51,801
Have you voted for Student
Government President?
1283
01:02:51,901 --> 01:02:53,603
I'm running, please vote.
1284
01:02:53,669 --> 01:02:57,340
The odds were not in my favor,
it looked like at first.
1285
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:58,841
And the person's like.
1286
01:02:58,941 --> 01:03:02,078
- Taylor Dumpson.
(crowd cheering)
1287
01:03:02,145 --> 01:03:04,447
- I don't have words for this.
1288
01:03:04,514 --> 01:03:05,515
I just,
1289
01:03:05,615 --> 01:03:07,850
I don't have any words.
1290
01:03:07,950 --> 01:03:10,453
And then I went home
and I went to sleep,
1291
01:03:12,455 --> 01:03:13,689
and I woke up.
1292
01:03:14,924 --> 01:03:15,858
And when I was coming
out of the train,
1293
01:03:15,958 --> 01:03:17,360
I was reading my phone,
1294
01:03:19,095 --> 01:03:21,998
and I had seen a message
from one of my classmates,
1295
01:03:22,098 --> 01:03:24,534
who said, Taylor, I don't
know if you've seen this yet,
1296
01:03:24,634 --> 01:03:26,536
but I just wanted to
share it with you.
1297
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:34,877
- [News Reporter] A
still unidentified person
1298
01:03:34,977 --> 01:03:37,046
committed the
on-campus hate crime,
1299
01:03:37,146 --> 01:03:38,881
stringing up
bananas with nooses,
1300
01:03:38,981 --> 01:03:41,384
with the initials of the
historically black sorority
1301
01:03:41,484 --> 01:03:44,487
Dumpson belongs to, and
other racist messages.
1302
01:03:45,655 --> 01:03:47,056
- I remember going
to the bathroom,
1303
01:03:47,156 --> 01:03:49,959
locking myself in the far
stall, and I called my mom.
1304
01:03:50,026 --> 01:03:54,530
- At this point we have a number
of outside investigators,
1305
01:03:54,630 --> 01:03:57,800
including the FBI,
including the...
1306
01:03:57,867 --> 01:04:00,403
- [Taylor] I hadn't
processed anything.
1307
01:04:01,637 --> 01:04:04,974
I was going into,
okay, crisis mode.
1308
01:04:05,041 --> 01:04:07,510
How do I make sure
that students are safe?
1309
01:04:07,577 --> 01:04:10,079
I didn't really give
myself the space to feel.
1310
01:04:12,348 --> 01:04:15,585
It was like, everybody's
looking to you to be president,
1311
01:04:15,685 --> 01:04:17,720
so you don't really
have a chance to process
1312
01:04:17,820 --> 01:04:19,255
that this is targeting you.
1313
01:04:21,357 --> 01:04:22,859
- You know, when you
see public shaming,
1314
01:04:22,925 --> 01:04:24,260
people are trying to shame them
1315
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:25,895
for things that they've done.
1316
01:04:25,995 --> 01:04:29,398
But the harassment
that is identity-based,
1317
01:04:29,498 --> 01:04:32,068
is bigotry in action.
1318
01:04:32,168 --> 01:04:35,771
And they're not the same thing.
1319
01:04:35,872 --> 01:04:39,208
When people are harassed
for their identity,
1320
01:04:39,275 --> 01:04:42,278
that harassment sometimes
ends in a noose.
1321
01:04:42,378 --> 01:04:45,414
It sometimes ends in a murder.
1322
01:04:45,514 --> 01:04:47,717
Whereas when someone is
being publicly shamed
1323
01:04:47,783 --> 01:04:49,552
for a mistake that they've made,
1324
01:04:50,786 --> 01:04:53,089
they're generally gonna
reap some repercussions,
1325
01:04:53,189 --> 01:04:54,757
and some of those
repercussions are horrible,
1326
01:04:54,857 --> 01:04:57,627
but they're not going to lose
their life at the end of it.
1327
01:05:01,364 --> 01:05:04,066
- [Loretta] We kept
warning people
1328
01:05:04,133 --> 01:05:06,435
that these storm
clouds were coming,
1329
01:05:06,535 --> 01:05:07,970
but we felt like Chicken Little,
1330
01:05:08,070 --> 01:05:09,572
because nobody was listening,
1331
01:05:09,639 --> 01:05:12,074
particularly with the
elections of Bill Clinton,
1332
01:05:12,141 --> 01:05:14,810
and then the election
of President Obama,
1333
01:05:14,911 --> 01:05:17,780
everybody thought
that it was all over,
1334
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:19,815
that we have turned
the corner on
1335
01:05:19,916 --> 01:05:22,118
a dreadful
history in America,
1336
01:05:22,218 --> 01:05:25,755
and we were gonna march
forward into the 21st century.
1337
01:05:25,821 --> 01:05:28,090
And we saw how that
turned out, didn't we?
1338
01:05:28,491 --> 01:05:30,960
- [Crowd] You will not
replace us!
1339
01:05:31,060 --> 01:05:33,996
You will not replace us!
1340
01:05:34,096 --> 01:05:35,965
- [Loretta] There's a white
grievance culture
1341
01:05:36,065 --> 01:05:38,801
that's still out there resentful
of the women's movement,
1342
01:05:38,901 --> 01:05:40,636
resentful of civil rights,
1343
01:05:40,736 --> 01:05:45,474
resentful of the fact that
their power to dominate
1344
01:05:45,574 --> 01:05:47,977
everything in our society
is being challenged
1345
01:05:48,077 --> 01:05:49,278
by these social movements.
1346
01:05:51,414 --> 01:05:56,852
(crowds yelling and
chanting indistinctly)
1347
01:05:59,422 --> 01:06:00,823
- [Taylor] My mom had just
dropped me off
1348
01:06:00,923 --> 01:06:01,991
at my apartment,
1349
01:06:02,091 --> 01:06:04,360
and she was like, "Taylor,
you need to get some sleep."
1350
01:06:06,429 --> 01:06:09,165
I got an email from the
Anti-Defamation League.
1351
01:06:10,933 --> 01:06:12,501
We would like to
notify you about
1352
01:06:12,601 --> 01:06:15,004
an emerging online
campaign targeting
1353
01:06:15,104 --> 01:06:17,206
Student Body President
Taylor Dumpson.
1354
01:06:17,306 --> 01:06:19,976
Andrew Anglin, founder
of the neo-Nazi website,
1355
01:06:20,042 --> 01:06:22,645
The Daily Stormer, is
encouraging his followers
1356
01:06:22,712 --> 01:06:26,215
to troll Miss Dumpson and any
related social media accounts.
1357
01:06:27,850 --> 01:06:31,821
Andrew Anglin runs a website
called The Daily Stormer,
1358
01:06:31,887 --> 01:06:33,522
which is one of
the most clicked on
1359
01:06:33,622 --> 01:06:36,192
white supremacist
websites in the world.
1360
01:06:37,727 --> 01:06:40,863
He wrote the article and
published that actually
1361
01:06:40,963 --> 01:06:43,165
on a section called Race War.
1362
01:06:47,370 --> 01:06:49,572
These comments that
I saw initially
1363
01:06:49,672 --> 01:06:51,907
were underneath of his article,
1364
01:06:52,008 --> 01:06:54,710
but that was not
where they stopped.
1365
01:06:54,810 --> 01:06:58,914
He really opened up Pandora's
Box and you can't close that.
1366
01:07:01,417 --> 01:07:03,986
Those people left
The Daily Stormer,
1367
01:07:04,053 --> 01:07:07,089
and continued to comment
on any kind of post
1368
01:07:07,189 --> 01:07:08,724
where there's a comment section
1369
01:07:08,824 --> 01:07:10,860
that has something
to do with me.
1370
01:07:10,926 --> 01:07:12,728
- [News Reporter] A
hate-filled feeding frenzy
1371
01:07:12,828 --> 01:07:14,897
began when the website
published her name,
1372
01:07:14,997 --> 01:07:18,434
photo, contact information,
and social media accounts.
1373
01:07:18,534 --> 01:07:22,838
- [Man] He told his many,
many followers to go get her.
1374
01:07:22,905 --> 01:07:25,007
- My heart jumped to my throat.
1375
01:07:25,074 --> 01:07:26,108
I started shaking.
1376
01:07:27,343 --> 01:07:30,079
I got up and I
closed the blinds.
1377
01:07:30,179 --> 01:07:31,580
I turned the lights off.
1378
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:32,948
I locked the doors.
1379
01:07:34,583 --> 01:07:37,420
I read the comments and
I read the articles.
1380
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:41,123
I looked at every
single comment.
1381
01:07:45,561 --> 01:07:48,764
I've seen the N word, I've
heard the N word in person.
1382
01:07:48,864 --> 01:07:54,103
But seeing in that way, people
were gendering racial slurs.
1383
01:07:54,203 --> 01:07:55,471
So they weren't just
calling me a nigger,
1384
01:07:55,571 --> 01:07:57,139
they were calling me
a nigger agitator.
1385
01:07:57,239 --> 01:07:58,574
They weren't just calling
me a nigger agitator,
1386
01:07:58,641 --> 01:07:59,775
they were calling me a Negress.
1387
01:07:59,875 --> 01:08:00,943
They weren't just
calling me a Negress,
1388
01:08:01,043 --> 01:08:02,478
they were calling me a sheboon.
1389
01:08:04,780 --> 01:08:06,949
Sometimes people
think of harassment
1390
01:08:07,049 --> 01:08:09,919
as one person saying
a bunch of things.
1391
01:08:09,985 --> 01:08:12,922
But what happens when
it's hundreds of people
1392
01:08:12,988 --> 01:08:14,590
saying one thing?
1393
01:08:17,593 --> 01:08:20,296
- Everyone is not
equal on the internet.
1394
01:08:20,396 --> 01:08:24,767
People who are vulnerable are
often made more vulnerable.
1395
01:08:24,834 --> 01:08:28,504
People who are powerful are
often made even more powerful.
1396
01:08:28,604 --> 01:08:30,806
There are already so many ways
1397
01:08:30,906 --> 01:08:33,008
in which harms are
enacted against people,
1398
01:08:33,109 --> 01:08:37,680
vulnerable people, people of
color, trans people, women.
1399
01:08:37,780 --> 01:08:42,118
When you are fomenting hate
or misognying on the internet,
1400
01:08:42,184 --> 01:08:43,319
you really don't have,
1401
01:08:43,419 --> 01:08:44,987
no one's gonna hold
you accountable.
1402
01:08:45,087 --> 01:08:49,024
It's like the ultimate
cover for crime.
1403
01:08:52,695 --> 01:08:54,630
- Initially I filed
a police report,
1404
01:08:54,697 --> 01:08:57,833
but I'm sitting here
right now I can't say that
1405
01:08:57,933 --> 01:09:01,203
I remember them following
up too much on that.
1406
01:09:01,303 --> 01:09:02,471
They were very much like,
1407
01:09:02,538 --> 01:09:03,506
there's not much
we can do for you.
1408
01:09:03,606 --> 01:09:04,807
It's like online.
1409
01:09:04,874 --> 01:09:07,510
I mean, it's not really
crossing the line.
1410
01:09:07,610 --> 01:09:11,714
And I'm like, it's illegal to
place a threat over the phone.
1411
01:09:11,814 --> 01:09:13,649
So like, I don't
really understand
1412
01:09:13,716 --> 01:09:15,050
what you're talking about.
1413
01:09:16,318 --> 01:09:18,787
- [Max] The legal situation
surrounding cyber harassment
1414
01:09:18,854 --> 01:09:22,725
in the United States
is a bit nebulous.
1415
01:09:22,825 --> 01:09:24,994
So we went to talk to someone
1416
01:09:25,060 --> 01:09:26,729
who could demystify it for us.
1417
01:09:27,963 --> 01:09:31,367
- I've been described
as a renegade lawyer,
1418
01:09:31,467 --> 01:09:34,069
as a social justice warrior,
1419
01:09:34,170 --> 01:09:36,372
as a complete asshole.
(laughs)
1420
01:09:36,472 --> 01:09:38,741
- [Monica] Carrie Goldberg
is one of the few lawyers
1421
01:09:38,841 --> 01:09:40,743
in the US that specializes
1422
01:09:40,843 --> 01:09:43,412
in defending victims
of cyber harassment.
1423
01:09:43,512 --> 01:09:48,517
- It was the victim of a
retaliatory ex-boyfriend,
1424
01:09:49,151 --> 01:09:51,387
and I couldn't find a
lawyer who could help me.
1425
01:09:51,487 --> 01:09:54,690
And when I finally got to
the other side of my crisis,
1426
01:09:54,757 --> 01:09:56,492
I stopped everything.
1427
01:09:56,559 --> 01:09:59,428
I left my very secure
job at a non-profit,
1428
01:09:59,528 --> 01:10:02,031
and started this law firm.
1429
01:10:05,334 --> 01:10:09,104
Social media companies
are the most malicious,
1430
01:10:09,205 --> 01:10:13,209
but untouchable actor when
it comes to online harms.
1431
01:10:13,275 --> 01:10:17,079
We have no right to demand
that they remove our content.
1432
01:10:17,179 --> 01:10:18,914
Even if they have policies,
1433
01:10:19,014 --> 01:10:20,783
there is no legal obligation
1434
01:10:20,883 --> 01:10:23,552
for them to enforce
those policies.
1435
01:10:23,619 --> 01:10:27,590
Try to find anywhere
on Facebook or Google,
1436
01:10:27,690 --> 01:10:29,725
where you have some
sort of ability
1437
01:10:29,792 --> 01:10:32,528
to email or contact somebody.
1438
01:10:32,595 --> 01:10:34,730
- You don't really hear
back from Facebook.
1439
01:10:34,797 --> 01:10:37,433
They just say, thank you.
1440
01:10:37,533 --> 01:10:40,769
If you feel like
you're being harassed,
1441
01:10:40,869 --> 01:10:42,972
you can just block this person.
1442
01:10:43,072 --> 01:10:45,307
- Mark Zuckerberg
has created a city
1443
01:10:45,407 --> 01:10:48,978
that has no police, has
no firemen or firewomen.
1444
01:10:49,078 --> 01:10:51,947
They have no water
department that works.
1445
01:10:52,047 --> 01:10:54,883
They have no electrical
department that's regular,
1446
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:57,720
but they collect all the rent
for all of us that live there.
1447
01:10:57,786 --> 01:10:59,755
And every night
they go, good luck.
1448
01:10:59,822 --> 01:11:01,924
- They won't take
responsibility.
1449
01:11:01,991 --> 01:11:03,225
I think it's because of hubris.
1450
01:11:03,292 --> 01:11:04,793
I think it's
because of laziness.
1451
01:11:04,893 --> 01:11:09,098
But most of all, I think
it's because of section 230.
1452
01:11:09,164 --> 01:11:13,002
("Beethoven's Ninth Symphony")
1453
01:11:13,102 --> 01:11:15,437
(gun firing)
1454
01:11:15,504 --> 01:11:18,140
- [Max] Section 230 has been
in the news a lot lately,
1455
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,010
because everybody seems
to have a problem with it,
1456
01:11:21,110 --> 01:11:23,479
but they just can't
agree on how to fix it.
1457
01:11:25,914 --> 01:11:28,851
Section 230 is part of a law
that says that tech companies
1458
01:11:28,951 --> 01:11:32,788
can't be sued for anything
users post on their platforms.
1459
01:11:32,855 --> 01:11:35,858
But the thing is when
it was passed in 1996,
1460
01:11:35,958 --> 01:11:37,526
it was actually a good thing.
1461
01:11:38,761 --> 01:11:40,796
Without having to
worry about being sued,
1462
01:11:40,863 --> 01:11:44,333
plucky tech startups
could innovate and create.
1463
01:11:44,433 --> 01:11:47,636
But now as online harms
become an everyday reality,
1464
01:11:47,703 --> 01:11:48,704
they're being forced to grapple
1465
01:11:48,804 --> 01:11:50,839
with their broad
immunity more and more.
1466
01:11:50,939 --> 01:11:52,374
- Mister Dorsey
1467
01:11:52,474 --> 01:11:54,209
from Twitter,
the floor is yours.
1468
01:11:54,310 --> 01:11:55,844
- We acknowledged
there's still concerns
1469
01:11:55,944 --> 01:11:57,946
around how we moderate content,
1470
01:11:58,013 --> 01:12:00,816
and specifically our
use of section 230.
1471
01:12:00,883 --> 01:12:04,553
- I do think that we
have responsibilities,
1472
01:12:04,653 --> 01:12:08,190
and it may make sense
for there to be liability
1473
01:12:08,290 --> 01:12:10,559
for some of the content
that is on the platform.
1474
01:12:10,659 --> 01:12:13,562
- I'm in media, if I get
it wrong, I get sued.
1475
01:12:13,662 --> 01:12:16,365
Companies like Facebook or any
of these internet companies
1476
01:12:16,465 --> 01:12:19,835
are not liable for anything.
1477
01:12:19,902 --> 01:12:21,737
Why do you think
Facebook's so profitable?
1478
01:12:21,837 --> 01:12:23,539
Because they don't have to
pay for cleaning things.
1479
01:12:23,639 --> 01:12:24,540
If you don't have to pay
1480
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,408
for cleaning the river
that you've polluted,
1481
01:12:26,508 --> 01:12:28,243
you could make a lot of money.
1482
01:12:28,344 --> 01:12:29,244
Over the last 20 years,
1483
01:12:29,345 --> 01:12:31,847
those companies have
become the most wealthy,
1484
01:12:31,914 --> 01:12:35,517
omnipotent companies in the
history of the universe.
1485
01:12:36,685 --> 01:12:38,220
You're a cheap date
to these people.
1486
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,924
They are the richest people
in the history of Earth.
1487
01:12:42,024 --> 01:12:44,560
The top 10 richest people are
all tech people, by the way.
1488
01:12:44,660 --> 01:12:46,362
- And yet we don't
have the ability,
1489
01:12:46,428 --> 01:12:49,565
because of federal law,
to hold them accountable,
1490
01:12:49,665 --> 01:12:51,700
if our life has
been destroyed.
1491
01:13:01,176 --> 01:13:05,214
- We had a final assignment
to create a wearable sculpture
1492
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:09,051
that explains who we are.
1493
01:13:13,255 --> 01:13:15,724
I can see the physical toll,
1494
01:13:17,059 --> 01:13:18,560
my weight fluctuating,
1495
01:13:19,695 --> 01:13:22,264
probably like 105
pounds in that picture.
1496
01:13:24,566 --> 01:13:28,971
The next few months was
me going to counseling,
1497
01:13:29,071 --> 01:13:31,073
me trying to figure
out how to walk
1498
01:13:31,140 --> 01:13:33,308
on American University's campus,
1499
01:13:34,777 --> 01:13:37,246
while constantly being triggered
1500
01:13:37,312 --> 01:13:39,081
every single day that I'm there.
1501
01:13:42,885 --> 01:13:46,588
I was diagnosed with PTSD,
depression, and anxiety.
1502
01:13:48,891 --> 01:13:52,494
- We need cyber civil rights,
because we need civil rights.
1503
01:13:52,594 --> 01:13:55,464
We need to understand
the way in which
1504
01:13:55,564 --> 01:13:59,134
what happens on the
internet directly erodes
1505
01:13:59,234 --> 01:14:02,104
people's civil and human
and sovereign rights.
1506
01:14:02,171 --> 01:14:06,775
(somber music)
1507
01:14:08,911 --> 01:14:10,479
- So, imagine you get a video
1508
01:14:10,579 --> 01:14:12,815
where someone has committed
some transgression,
1509
01:14:12,915 --> 01:14:15,017
and then you see them being
sort of pulled up for it,
1510
01:14:15,117 --> 01:14:17,119
or called out for
it in some way,
1511
01:14:17,186 --> 01:14:19,855
and you get to feel
pleased about that.
1512
01:14:19,955 --> 01:14:21,256
And then you see another video
1513
01:14:21,323 --> 01:14:22,324
kind of six months down the line
1514
01:14:22,424 --> 01:14:24,860
where that person has,
you know, lost their job,
1515
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:26,795
and they're
incredibly depressed.
1516
01:14:28,530 --> 01:14:32,468
If you were to see that
video of someone suffering
1517
01:14:32,534 --> 01:14:33,836
the terrible consequences
1518
01:14:33,936 --> 01:14:36,472
of what has befallen
them six months earlier,
1519
01:14:36,538 --> 01:14:38,540
you might well
think about the role
1520
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,210
that you played in
that whole experience.
1521
01:14:47,282 --> 01:14:49,384
- [Monica] There is actually
a country in the world
1522
01:14:49,485 --> 01:14:52,821
that did reconsider their
role in online harms.
1523
01:14:54,790 --> 01:14:57,326
But it took a tragedy
to wake them up.
1524
01:14:59,495 --> 01:15:00,362
- [Woman] Big, old,
tough Charlotte,
1525
01:15:00,462 --> 01:15:02,865
even big old opinionated,
tough Charlotte,
1526
01:15:02,965 --> 01:15:04,900
can sometimes be
punched down too.
1527
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:09,137
You talking about depression
is really admirable.
1528
01:15:09,204 --> 01:15:10,339
- [Man] It's weird, isn't it?
1529
01:15:10,405 --> 01:15:11,874
I would never have known that.
1530
01:15:11,974 --> 01:15:13,909
- [Man] In 2012,
Charlotte was admitted
1531
01:15:14,009 --> 01:15:15,711
to hospital with depression
1532
01:15:15,811 --> 01:15:19,681
after she received a barrage
of vicious comments on Twitter.
1533
01:15:19,748 --> 01:15:21,183
She posted a picture of herself
1534
01:15:21,250 --> 01:15:23,185
holding tablets with a comment,
1535
01:15:23,252 --> 01:15:25,053
hope this ends the misery.
1536
01:15:25,153 --> 01:15:28,090
- After a long and public
struggle with depression,
1537
01:15:28,190 --> 01:15:30,726
television personality,
Charlotte Dawson's life,
1538
01:15:30,826 --> 01:15:34,096
has ended tragically, with her
body discovered this morning
1539
01:15:34,196 --> 01:15:36,398
at her Woolloomooloo home.
1540
01:15:44,373 --> 01:15:48,377
- A petition started in
response to Charlotte's death.
1541
01:15:48,443 --> 01:15:49,578
Hundreds and thousands of people
1542
01:15:49,678 --> 01:15:51,413
said enough is enough.
1543
01:15:51,513 --> 01:15:52,781
This should not be happening.
1544
01:15:52,881 --> 01:15:54,283
Government needs to step in
1545
01:15:54,383 --> 01:15:58,086
and start regulating
the internet.
1546
01:15:58,186 --> 01:15:59,421
- [Monica] Julie Inman Grant
1547
01:15:59,521 --> 01:16:02,057
is Australia's
eSafety Commissioner.
1548
01:16:02,124 --> 01:16:04,626
- I'm essentially a
regulator of social media,
1549
01:16:04,726 --> 01:16:07,930
and our goal is to keep
all Australians safer
1550
01:16:08,030 --> 01:16:10,766
and to help them have more
positive experiences online.
1551
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,437
If a child in the US was
being seriously cyber bullied,
1552
01:16:15,537 --> 01:16:18,740
and reported to
Facebook or Instagram,
1553
01:16:18,807 --> 01:16:22,945
and it didn't come down, they
wouldn't have any recourse.
1554
01:16:23,045 --> 01:16:25,147
So if a social media company
1555
01:16:25,247 --> 01:16:27,883
doesn't take down content
1556
01:16:27,950 --> 01:16:30,919
that we deem to be
seriously harmful,
1557
01:16:30,986 --> 01:16:32,621
we can compel them
to take them down
1558
01:16:32,721 --> 01:16:36,291
through a range of civil
penalties, including fines.
1559
01:16:36,391 --> 01:16:37,960
- [Max] And Australia
isn't the only country
1560
01:16:38,060 --> 01:16:40,963
that's passed legislation
to curb online harms.
1561
01:16:41,063 --> 01:16:45,634
The UK, France, Germany and
India have also passed acts
1562
01:16:45,734 --> 01:16:47,836
to protect their
citizens on the internet,
1563
01:16:47,936 --> 01:16:50,806
giving us a bunch of examples
of how we might reconcile
1564
01:16:50,906 --> 01:16:54,276
free speech with all
those other civil rights.
1565
01:16:56,278 --> 01:16:59,681
But here in the US, we
still have section 230.
1566
01:17:00,115 --> 01:17:02,684
(electric blower whirrs)
1567
01:17:02,784 --> 01:17:05,320
So if you want to hold
someone accountable, legally,
1568
01:17:05,420 --> 01:17:08,123
you've got to think a
little outside the box.
1569
01:17:09,925 --> 01:17:12,628
- By December of 2017,
1570
01:17:12,694 --> 01:17:16,131
they had exhausted all credible
leads on the hate crime.
1571
01:17:16,198 --> 01:17:18,700
And so while I was an intern
at the lawyers committee,
1572
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,470
I remember going to my
supervisor and being like,
1573
01:17:21,536 --> 01:17:23,205
can we sue neo-Nazis?
1574
01:17:23,305 --> 01:17:25,807
And she was like,
yeah, you can do that.
1575
01:17:27,109 --> 01:17:28,543
Somebody needs to
be held accountable
1576
01:17:28,644 --> 01:17:30,178
for what happened to me.
1577
01:17:30,278 --> 01:17:32,147
We figured out who
we needed to sue.
1578
01:17:33,615 --> 01:17:35,684
And then I was in an intake
meeting that afternoon.
1579
01:17:38,153 --> 01:17:40,856
Andrew Anglin was a
foregone conclusion,
1580
01:17:40,956 --> 01:17:43,025
but because we had
compiled screenshots
1581
01:17:43,125 --> 01:17:44,059
from some of the messages,
1582
01:17:44,159 --> 01:17:46,495
we were able to identify people
1583
01:17:46,561 --> 01:17:48,397
based on their Twitter handles.
1584
01:17:48,497 --> 01:17:51,133
We were able to make a
kind of creative argument
1585
01:17:51,199 --> 01:17:54,036
that the online harassment
impacted my ability
1586
01:17:54,136 --> 01:17:56,571
to go to school and
to utilize my campus
1587
01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:58,040
to the fullest capacity.
1588
01:17:59,474 --> 01:18:01,677
My attorneys, they didn't
promise me anything.
1589
01:18:01,743 --> 01:18:03,078
And they were like, you know,
1590
01:18:03,178 --> 01:18:04,346
this is going to be
really, really difficult.
1591
01:18:04,413 --> 01:18:05,414
- [Interviewer]
What would you say
1592
01:18:05,514 --> 01:18:06,848
to the Andrew
Anglins of the world?
1593
01:18:06,915 --> 01:18:08,417
- You picked the wrong one.
1594
01:18:08,517 --> 01:18:11,319
And you picked somebody
that wasn't gonna back down.
1595
01:18:11,386 --> 01:18:13,221
- [Interviewer]
Dumpson won her case.
1596
01:18:15,190 --> 01:18:18,593
(compelling piano music)
1597
01:18:26,334 --> 01:18:29,738
- We sued three people
and one corporation,
1598
01:18:29,838 --> 01:18:32,908
but two people and the
corporation did not respond,
1599
01:18:33,008 --> 01:18:35,210
but one of the
individuals did respond.
1600
01:18:36,678 --> 01:18:39,214
That person happens
to be around my age.
1601
01:18:40,682 --> 01:18:42,284
One of the things
that we discussed
1602
01:18:42,384 --> 01:18:43,585
with my attorneys
in the beginning
1603
01:18:43,685 --> 01:18:46,455
was what did I want
out of litigation?
1604
01:18:47,923 --> 01:18:51,426
I remember doing a class,
it was about punishment.
1605
01:18:51,526 --> 01:18:52,794
One of the things
that we studied
1606
01:18:52,894 --> 01:18:54,596
was different forms
of punishment,
1607
01:18:54,696 --> 01:18:56,131
and who do you punish for?
1608
01:18:56,231 --> 01:18:58,233
Is the purpose rehabilitation?
1609
01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:00,969
Is it retribution?
1610
01:19:01,069 --> 01:19:03,472
I had been exposed to
what restorative justice
1611
01:19:03,572 --> 01:19:05,240
looked like and
what it could be.
1612
01:19:06,708 --> 01:19:09,444
So I was really interested
in trying to incorporate
1613
01:19:09,544 --> 01:19:12,481
those kinds of principles
into a settlement.
1614
01:19:12,581 --> 01:19:15,383
He was required to do 200
hours of community service
1615
01:19:15,450 --> 01:19:17,919
with a racial
justice organization.
1616
01:19:17,986 --> 01:19:20,756
He was required to
renounce white supremacy,
1617
01:19:22,924 --> 01:19:25,460
and we scheduled an apology.
1618
01:19:26,728 --> 01:19:29,631
I gave sort of like a
victim impact statement,
1619
01:19:29,731 --> 01:19:33,168
and I was looking him in
his eye the entire time.
1620
01:19:35,303 --> 01:19:37,105
After I spoke, then he spoke.
1621
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:43,612
After that, I felt like I was
able to take my next steps,
1622
01:19:43,678 --> 01:19:46,648
which were to close that
chapter of the book.
1623
01:19:50,352 --> 01:19:53,655
- Calling in is a
call-out done with love,
1624
01:19:53,755 --> 01:19:57,692
'cause we share a desire
to hold people accountable,
1625
01:19:57,793 --> 01:19:59,795
not only for the harm they do,
1626
01:19:59,861 --> 01:20:02,864
but help them learn how not
to do more harm in the future.
1627
01:20:06,535 --> 01:20:09,171
People change from the inside
1628
01:20:09,271 --> 01:20:12,207
because they want to call on
themselves to be better people.
1629
01:20:17,112 --> 01:20:20,882
I am not so much a turn
the other cheek girl
1630
01:20:20,982 --> 01:20:23,685
that I just think
that restorative
1631
01:20:23,785 --> 01:20:26,855
or transformative or
calling in is available,
1632
01:20:26,955 --> 01:20:29,391
or will work with everybody.
1633
01:20:29,491 --> 01:20:32,861
I just think we
overused calling out
1634
01:20:32,961 --> 01:20:36,064
in situations where
it being less punitive
1635
01:20:36,164 --> 01:20:40,035
could actually become a
more effective strategy.
1636
01:20:40,135 --> 01:20:42,204
And even if the person is wrong,
1637
01:20:42,304 --> 01:20:45,173
you can offer them the grace
of being wrong about it.
1638
01:20:47,742 --> 01:20:49,077
- After everything went down,
1639
01:20:50,045 --> 01:20:52,047
I hadn't had any
sort of release.
1640
01:20:53,648 --> 01:20:54,549
And I got an email,
1641
01:20:59,921 --> 01:21:03,358
I got an email and
he's like, hey dude,
1642
01:21:03,425 --> 01:21:05,427
I just wanted to
let you know that
1643
01:21:08,830 --> 01:21:11,032
I don't feel like you
did anything wrong.
1644
01:21:11,099 --> 01:21:13,268
You were just trying to
provide for your family,
1645
01:21:13,368 --> 01:21:15,937
and you got caught up in
the midst of the situation.
1646
01:21:21,176 --> 01:21:22,444
I lost it.
1647
01:21:26,514 --> 01:21:30,552
I was sobbing so hard that I
was shaking the entire bed.
1648
01:21:30,619 --> 01:21:33,922
I woke my wife up and
she asked me, she's like,
1649
01:21:34,022 --> 01:21:35,290
what's wrong, what's wrong?
1650
01:21:38,059 --> 01:21:41,263
And all I could get out
was, someone was nice to me.
1651
01:21:43,865 --> 01:21:46,568
(ethereal music)
1652
01:22:14,896 --> 01:22:16,798
- These are not chess pieces
1653
01:22:16,898 --> 01:22:19,968
to be moved on a board
to your pleasure.
1654
01:22:20,068 --> 01:22:22,003
These are human beings.
1655
01:22:22,103 --> 01:22:24,839
And if you fail to
see their humanity,
1656
01:22:24,940 --> 01:22:28,410
then you will always
thwart your own goals
1657
01:22:28,476 --> 01:22:30,779
in changing hearts and minds.
1658
01:22:31,279 --> 01:22:37,285
(dramatic music)
1659
01:23:15,991 --> 01:23:19,194
Anger is such powerful fuel.
1660
01:23:19,294 --> 01:23:20,895
And so when you're
bereft of that,
1661
01:23:20,996 --> 01:23:23,198
you have to land somewhere else
1662
01:23:23,298 --> 01:23:27,202
and really embrace what I call
a concept of radical love,
1663
01:23:27,302 --> 01:23:29,337
starting with love for self
1664
01:23:29,404 --> 01:23:30,705
and calling on myself
1665
01:23:30,805 --> 01:23:32,907
to be the best human
being I can be.
1666
01:23:49,524 --> 01:23:51,559
- [Monica] Imagine
waking up one morning
1667
01:23:51,659 --> 01:23:54,562
with the whole world
suddenly knowing your name.
1668
01:23:57,032 --> 01:24:00,035
What kind of world do
you want that to be?
1669
01:24:14,215 --> 01:24:17,185
(acoustic guitar music)
122081
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