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Downloaded from
YTS.MX
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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[ominous music]
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This is a BBC news special.
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00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,520
A Malaysian passenger plane
with around 300 people on board
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00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,439
has crashed close to the
Ukrainian border with Russia.
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There are unconfirmed reports
that it was shot down.
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The Malaysian airliner
had been flying normally
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without problems and...
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00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:04,879
An American journalist
has been beheaded
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by ISIS terrorists.
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00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,280
A video showing
the horrific killing
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00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:11,599
was released on the internet
a short while ago,
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00:01:11,689 --> 00:01:13,959
along with a message
to the United States...
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00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,640
Devastation in the rebel-held
Sucari neighborhood of Aleppo
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00:01:18,719 --> 00:01:19,799
on Wednesday.
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00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:24,079
Activists blame a barrel bombing
by government forces.
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00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:26,560
At least 100 people
have been killed
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00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,000
The flight would have been
at cruising altitude,
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which means it would be
at about 32,000 feet.
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For someone to mistake
that for a hostile aircraft
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between Russia and Ukraine
would be difficult.
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00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:41,760
It's difficult to see
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00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,599
how this could just be
a mistake.
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This is nonsense.
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There are
no Russian armed forces
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anywhere in the east of Ukraine.
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00:01:50,599 --> 00:01:56,439
A horrific scene
in Charlottesville, Virginia.
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A white nationalist rally
that descended
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into deadly violence and chaos.
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00:02:01,239 --> 00:02:02,519
The image is just coming in.
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00:02:02,599 --> 00:02:04,560
Unfortunately,
the Russian-backed separatists
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00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:05,640
who control the area
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00:02:05,719 --> 00:02:07,719
continue to block
the investigation.
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00:02:08,090 --> 00:02:10,120
The separatists
are removing evidence
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00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:11,479
from the crash site
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all of which begs the question,
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00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,560
what exactly
are they trying to hide?
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00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,560
We have to make sure
that the truth is out.
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00:02:35,719 --> 00:02:37,719
[theme music]
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00:02:55,159 --> 00:02:57,400
Before any official
investigation
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00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:00,240
into the tragedy
of flight MH17 is complete
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00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:02,360
the website of one citizen
journalist claims
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to have connected the dots.
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00:03:04,199 --> 00:03:06,280
Bellingcat is run
by Eliot Higgins,
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00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,680
a 36-year-old laid-off
office worker.
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00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,080
Among Bellingcat's
favorite tools
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00:03:11,159 --> 00:03:12,719
are YouTube and Google Earth.
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00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,840
Something Higgins used
to back his claim
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that Russia
faked satellite images
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00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,439
to blame the Ukrainian army
for the MH17 crash.
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00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,759
When I was younger
I was super, super shy.
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00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,479
When I was at University,
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00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,960
I couldn't even leave the house,
I was so shy.
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00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,159
Terribly nerdy as it sounds,
56
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,719
I was really into computers
and gaming.
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00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:38,159
I was very withdrawn as well,
so I got into computers.
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00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,000
It's what
that kind of people do.
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00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,400
I used to play these games a lot
and I would like join a group.
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00:03:43,479 --> 00:03:45,759
Inevitably I would end up
the leader of the group,
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00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,560
because I would really get
into stuff.
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I've always been like that.
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00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,159
I have this kind of
obsessive tendency
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00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:52,479
where if I like something
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I'll really get into it.
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00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,599
Growing up, my interests
were very counter culture.
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00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,319
So, I was very interested
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00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,280
in the way US foreign policy
affected the world.
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00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:05,719
Of course we have things
like the first
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00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:06,800
and second Iraq war,
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00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:09,319
and you know,
all the mess America was making.
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00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,879
When social media became popular
in 2007, 2008,
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00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:14,960
we had smartphones
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00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:17,639
and those two technologies
combined with apps
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that allow you
to take photographs
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00:04:19,319 --> 00:04:21,399
and share it immediately
with the entire world.
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The fact that you could do
that was revolutionary.
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-[bell dings]
-[indistinct announcement]
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This is something
I've been working on
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00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:39,279
for a presentation
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it's about the white
nationalist's violence.
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-Whose streets?
-Our streets.
83
00:04:43,050 --> 00:04:44,680
-Whose streets?
-Our streets.
84
00:04:44,759 --> 00:04:46,639
-Whose streets?
-Our streets.
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00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:50,240
There was this image taken,
showing him attacking that guy.
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00:04:50,319 --> 00:04:52,170
So we wanted to know
who this could be.
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00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:53,839
We looked for all the
photographs and videos
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of these white nationalists
and we found this guy.
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Now, he has certain
similarities,
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00:04:59,170 --> 00:05:01,279
for example he has
a very similar shirt on.
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00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,120
So, we looked for more images
and photographs
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00:05:03,199 --> 00:05:04,839
and we found this photograph
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00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,319
which appeared
to be the same person.
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So we compare him
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and the one thing
that stands out
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is the pattern of moles
on his neck
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is exactly the same.
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What we started doing is looking
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00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:16,680
at the people
who stood around him.
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00:05:17,439 --> 00:05:18,439
Because what happens
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00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:20,920
is some of these people
turn up in tweets
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00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,399
by this account
"Yes, You're Racist,"
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00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,519
where they actually name
the individuals in question.
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00:05:25,610 --> 00:05:27,800
They show they have
social media accounts.
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What we're able to do is go
to these social media accounts
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and look through the people
they follow.
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00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,639
And we come across
this guy here.
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00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,120
If we go to his page,
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we can look
at the photographs he's got
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00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:41,920
and again you can start
seeing matches.
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So you can see the moles
on his neck
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00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,480
match the pattern
of moles there.
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00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:51,199
So, you know, he appears
to have been committing a crime.
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00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:52,279
So, what we're trying to do
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00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,480
is see if we can ID
the people behind these.
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00:05:55,079 --> 00:05:56,160
And this kind of work
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is becoming more and more
interesting
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to law enforcement.
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I originally
was going to come here
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and talk to you
about a revolution
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00:06:11,519 --> 00:06:14,279
but with the discussion
of the post-truth world,
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00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,560
it feels like
a counter revolution now.
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00:06:16,639 --> 00:06:20,040
And it's been a very peaceful
and quiet revolution,
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00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:23,920
thanks to smartphones,
thanks to social media...
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00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,959
and thanks to the vast amount
of information
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00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,399
now available online to anyone.
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00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,560
And this revolution has allowed
a new field to grow.
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I like to call this field
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"online open source
investigation."
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We can use it to influence
the powerful,
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we can use it to challenge
the powerful
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00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:44,000
and we can bring them
to accountability as well.
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00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,480
Now, I started Bellingcat
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00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,720
because I wanted to teach people
how to do this.
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00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,800
It used to be that the tools
of media production
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00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,959
were in the hands of the media.
137
00:06:58,079 --> 00:07:00,639
And with the rise
of the internet,
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00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,199
that is no longer true.
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00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:05,360
With vlogging starting in 2000
140
00:07:05,439 --> 00:07:08,120
and social media starting
in 2004
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00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:11,720
and YouTube,
which I think started in 2005,
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00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,519
now the tools
for media production
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00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:19,120
have been given to the people
formerly known as the audience.
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00:07:23,439 --> 00:07:24,439
Historians will look back,
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00:07:24,519 --> 00:07:26,920
I think, and recognize
that this was the time
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00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,879
almost 20 years
after the internet emerged
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00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:31,959
where the kind of realities
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00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,759
of our networked environment
became true.
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00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:36,079
In human history,
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00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,319
when we've had these moments
of significant change
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00:07:38,399 --> 00:07:39,560
whether it was
the printing press,
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00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:42,360
or radio, or television,
we've had similar moments of...
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00:07:42,439 --> 00:07:43,439
[gasps]
Oh, my goodness,
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00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:44,680
what is it going to mean?
155
00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:47,839
And we're there right now,
but we do have to recognize
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00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,920
the seriousness
of what this means
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00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,120
because ultimately,
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00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:54,480
this technology
is a reflection of humans.
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00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,279
So, for the last five years
we've been terrified
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00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,720
about artificial intelligence
and robots.
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00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,000
The horrible truth is,
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00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:02,920
the thing that might
bring us down
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00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,920
is technology
that simply reflects
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00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,480
our worst aspects back
to each other.
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00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,959
[keyboard clanking]
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I'd just been looking at Twitter
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00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:17,759
and I noticed there was
a new ISIS video.
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00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:20,600
And someone said
there's James Foley on it.
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00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,560
This is James Wright Foley,
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00:08:23,839 --> 00:08:26,480
an American citizen
of your country.
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00:08:28,759 --> 00:08:30,639
I just felt like I needed
to do something
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00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:31,839
so that's why I thought I'd see
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if I could find out
where this had taken place.
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00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:37,090
The first thing I noticed
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00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,639
was that it was in this dry
and arid area
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but in the distance
you can actually see
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00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,159
a very green and fertile area.
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00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,960
And if you're familiar
with the terrain around Raqqa
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00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,840
which is obviously
the stronghold at this point
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00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:52,919
you could see this valley with
this river running through it,
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00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000
and it's very green
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00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:56,639
but the foothills around it
were very dry and arid.
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00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,360
These are obviously very dusty,
hilly areas
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00:08:58,450 --> 00:08:59,919
but you can see,
in the distance,
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00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,559
all these individual trees.
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00:09:02,090 --> 00:09:03,799
So when you look at Raqqa,
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00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:05,039
this is exactly
what you're seeing.
188
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You're seeing this green valley
with these hills.
189
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,210
I basically just went through
and followed this line,
190
00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:12,279
looking for similar terrain.
191
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,720
You can see here
it's very, very rough indeed.
192
00:09:14,799 --> 00:09:16,879
So I thought
it was a likely location.
193
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,039
Then I started looking
194
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:19,559
at all these little
background details,
195
00:09:19,639 --> 00:09:21,039
like these trees and the road
196
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:22,799
and comparing them to imagery
197
00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:24,840
that was visible
from that line of sight.
198
00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:28,159
Once I had a possible location,
199
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,090
I published it to kind of see
if I could generate a discussion
200
00:09:31,159 --> 00:09:32,840
around where this could
have happened.
201
00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:37,450
Then, several months later,
that's why I started Bellingcat.
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00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,720
Bellingcat doesn't have
institutional support.
203
00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:50,879
They don't have a big building
at The Hague or Brussels,
204
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,210
where they do their work.
205
00:09:52,279 --> 00:09:56,450
They actually publish
very detailed analyses
206
00:09:56,519 --> 00:09:59,159
and many of them
are volunteers living at home.
207
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,679
They don't have security
and so what they do
208
00:10:02,759 --> 00:10:07,210
is really risk a great deal
to find out the truth
209
00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:09,559
in very complex situations
210
00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:11,960
that include
major global players.
211
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,159
[explosion]
212
00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:29,759
[in Russian]
213
00:11:34,919 --> 00:11:36,919
[truck engine rumbles]
214
00:11:43,919 --> 00:11:46,120
[in English] How I got involved
in Bellingcat was that
215
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,440
I had been following
the Ukraine conflict
216
00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:49,960
pretty much since the beginning.
217
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,720
And then, when MH17
was shot down, I got curious.
218
00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:56,960
Because passenger planes
fly very high.
219
00:11:57,039 --> 00:12:00,559
They fly, or cruise,
at altitudes of 10 kilometers.
220
00:12:00,639 --> 00:12:04,000
I hadn't seen weapon systems
that could reach that high.
221
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,399
So previously what I'd seen
222
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,519
is these
shoulder-launched missiles...
223
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,159
that could only reach
a couple of kilometers,
224
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,759
but nothing that could down
a passenger airliner.
225
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,440
There were these pictures
of all the parts of the aircraft
226
00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:17,759
that were starting to appear
on social media.
227
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,840
What I wanted to understand was,
228
00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:25,240
could we actually see any damage
on the aircraft parts itself
229
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,399
that could indicate
what brought it down?
230
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,840
That's how I got talking to,
then, other people.
231
00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:34,639
There was Eliot, there was Aric,
then Timmi came along as well.
232
00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:36,919
We sort of naturally started,
233
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,559
I suppose,
talking to each other.
234
00:12:38,639 --> 00:12:40,600
Then at some point Eliot
235
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,039
reached out
to all of us and said,
236
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,799
"Hey, do you want
to actually do something
237
00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:45,399
in a more coordinated fashion?"
238
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,559
That's how we sort of ended up
as the core Bellingcat team.
239
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,080
I was at work here
in Charlotte at a bank.
240
00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:03,519
My job was to monitor events
that were going on
241
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:04,919
and try to see
if there's any danger
242
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,480
or risk to the bankers,
employees
243
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:07,759
or travelers or whatever.
244
00:13:08,399 --> 00:13:10,360
I focused a lot on Ukraine
and Russia at work
245
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,759
because I studied
Russian literature
246
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,679
in graduate school.
247
00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:15,240
And I did a lot of
moderating things to do
248
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,320
with Russia and Ukraine.
249
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,480
And I remember seeing some news
250
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,519
that a plane was shot down
over Ukraine.
251
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,000
At first I thought,
oh, it's no big deal,
252
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:25,799
another plane
has been shot down.
253
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,559
But soon, obviously,
as everyone knows,
254
00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:31,639
we realized it wasn't
a Ukrainian plane.
255
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,279
Then I, like everybody else,
was wondering what was going on.
256
00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:38,279
And I was looking
at the online evidence
257
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,720
around the shoot down.
258
00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:42,159
There were a handful
of photographs and videos
259
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,440
that emerged on the day
of the shoot down
260
00:13:44,519 --> 00:13:46,360
and then more
that would come later on.
261
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,519
When you think about
like the Lockerbie bombing,
262
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,279
or the US shoot down
of the Iranian plane
263
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,879
you know, all these
other disasters,
264
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,559
there's really not much to go on
265
00:13:55,639 --> 00:13:58,120
except for what you see
on the news.
266
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,320
But with MH17
it was so different
267
00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:03,039
because there was
this huge digital trail.
268
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,720
I remember
I was watching social media
269
00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:08,440
and I was watching
a few different feeds of news.
270
00:14:08,519 --> 00:14:10,600
I remember I had Rossiya 1,
271
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,720
which is the main
Russian state news channel,
272
00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:14,039
and LifeNews.
273
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,759
The LifeNews channel,
274
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,559
I remember, the stream
specifically was horrific.
275
00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:20,879
They were showing the bodies,
it was awful.
276
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:22,639
They showed people
riffling through.
277
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,559
It was just
a horrible, horrible scene.
278
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:27,120
And, of course you want to know
who did this
279
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,240
why did it happen and how
can you bring some relief
280
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:31,919
and, you know, justice to it?
281
00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:36,080
We know the trajectory.
We know where it came from.
282
00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:39,080
We know the timing
and it was exactly at the time
283
00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:41,879
that this aircraft disappeared
from the radar.
284
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,000
We also know
from voice identification
285
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,720
that the separatists
were bragging
286
00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:48,480
about shooting it down
afterwards.
287
00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:51,840
So there's a stacking up
of evidence here
288
00:14:51,919 --> 00:14:53,480
What I really wanted
to first understand.
289
00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:54,799
What was it shot down with?
290
00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:57,240
Because that then would lead
to the "who did it".
291
00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,759
A couple of weeks before MH17
was shot down,
292
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,039
there was a report
on Voice of Russia
293
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,440
that the rebels in east Ukraine
294
00:15:06,519 --> 00:15:09,840
had taken over this Buk
missile base in Donetsk.
295
00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:13,960
Ans when I first thought that,
okay, it's conceivable
296
00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:16,279
since Ukraine does
also have Buks
297
00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:18,519
and the rebels,
if they had access to the Buks,
298
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,440
they could have access
to people as well
299
00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:23,000
who could operate those systems.
300
00:15:23,559 --> 00:15:25,159
But it was only then,
301
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,440
after a little while
of first learning
302
00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:31,240
that the same missile launcher
303
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,679
had been actually seen
in Russia.
304
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,159
That's really when things
started clicking together
305
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,440
and the Russian role
started becoming apparent.
306
00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:41,519
[light music]
307
00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:50,960
[in German]
308
00:17:24,410 --> 00:17:26,279
[in English] The way citizen
journalism investigations
309
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,890
are trusted is different
than professional journalism.
310
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,480
In professional journalism,
311
00:17:31,559 --> 00:17:35,720
you have the reputation
of the BBC behind you, right?
312
00:17:35,799 --> 00:17:41,519
Uh, and the standards
of an institution
313
00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:44,799
are the basis for trust.
314
00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:47,920
In citizen journalism
it works differently.
315
00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,920
Trust is generated
not by the brand name
316
00:17:53,599 --> 00:17:55,799
or the glory of the institution.
317
00:17:56,650 --> 00:17:58,559
It's generated
through transparency.
318
00:17:59,650 --> 00:18:03,890
And so, in citizen
journalism investigations
319
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,170
what the journalist says is not,
"Trust me, I'm with the BBC."
320
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,890
It's, "Don't believe me?
Here's the evidence."
321
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,170
[explosion]
322
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:25,079
Syria's deadly civil war is now
even more dangerous
323
00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:28,839
with both the US and Russia
launching air strikes,
324
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,480
but supporting different sides.
325
00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,279
The core of what I've been doing
with Bellingcat,
326
00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:36,920
is human rights activism.
327
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,240
With some of my colleagues,
we started a Facebook group
328
00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:42,650
called the Syrian Uprising
Information Centre.
329
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,410
In the beginning, 2011,
330
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,839
we were just locating
were the peaceful protests
331
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,170
were coming from.
332
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,359
But that turned into pinpointing
human rights violations
333
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,720
and that work led, eventually,
334
00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:59,119
working on doing open source
analysis with Bellingcat.
335
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,440
So, if we go from the beginning,
336
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,559
you see it's like
the first moment of the attack.
337
00:19:09,650 --> 00:19:13,440
You see four rockets going
into the market.
338
00:19:13,519 --> 00:19:17,039
We are trying to see
if it is a fake video.
339
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:18,720
Maybe from a different country.
340
00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:22,119
Maybe in Syria,
but in a different time.
341
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,359
We have seen
this has happened a lot.
342
00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:31,759
[in English]
If you remember the director
343
00:19:31,839 --> 00:19:34,759
who filmed a boy
that has been killed.
344
00:19:35,839 --> 00:19:37,960
It was just a film
that they were doing,
345
00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:40,119
in a different country, even.
346
00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:43,559
But it got a lot of traction
when people used it as,
347
00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:46,200
"Look at what's happening
in Syria." Right?
348
00:19:46,279 --> 00:19:48,680
But actually
it wasn't happening in Syria.
349
00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:52,799
So we really need to make sure
350
00:19:52,890 --> 00:19:56,000
that whatever we're looking at,
it's clearly verified.
351
00:19:56,079 --> 00:19:58,119
Uh, it's not just propaganda.
352
00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:02,079
As human beings we are
very susceptible to information
353
00:20:02,170 --> 00:20:04,279
that reinforces our world views.
354
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:05,440
We like to think that people
355
00:20:05,519 --> 00:20:07,359
have a rational relationship
to information.
356
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:08,440
We do not.
357
00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:10,240
We have an emotional
relationship to information.
358
00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:13,960
So when we see overt lies
or falsehoods
359
00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:15,359
or manipulated video
360
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,890
it's very easy as academics
or researchers
361
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:18,960
or journalists to say,
362
00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:20,410
"Why is this working?"
363
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,799
How can we see
foreign governments
364
00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:25,000
put out false information
and get away with it?
365
00:20:25,079 --> 00:20:29,720
Because they are successful
because humans don't want to do
366
00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:31,200
the necessary checks.
367
00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:32,759
Because if you receive
information
368
00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:34,839
that reinforces
your world view...
369
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,519
you've got no interest
to check it.
370
00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:41,119
[computer beeps]
371
00:20:58,319 --> 00:20:59,920
[explosion]
372
00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:05,799
So, you can see
there's four bombs falling
373
00:21:05,890 --> 00:21:07,599
from the sky and then impacting.
374
00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:10,480
Three of them in pretty much
the same place
375
00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:12,890
and then the fourth hits
a little bit further out.
376
00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:16,359
So there we see
the bigger impacts here
377
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,680
and then there's one further
down here.
378
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,720
It's hard to say
what exactly it is
379
00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:24,839
but I wouldn't exclude
either the Syrians
380
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,480
or the Russians from this one.
381
00:21:27,079 --> 00:21:29,279
But in addition to this,
it would be really good to see
382
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,920
the actual remnants
of the bombs themselves.
383
00:21:32,519 --> 00:21:34,559
Because that then gives you
more data
384
00:21:34,650 --> 00:21:36,720
about what exactly
the bombs were
385
00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:40,000
and then that can tell you
who possibly did the strike.
386
00:21:41,650 --> 00:21:44,200
Veli-Pekka was part
of the Finnish military.
387
00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:45,359
Because they are more focused
388
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,079
toward Russia
than other nations are,
389
00:21:47,170 --> 00:21:48,890
he has a better understanding
of military doctrine,
390
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:49,960
I suppose you could say.
391
00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:51,759
He has a good analytical eye.
392
00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:54,480
He picks up the ideas
about open source investigation
393
00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:57,480
and verification and geolocation
very, very quickly.
394
00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:59,519
He had this persistence
and obsessiveness
395
00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:01,400
that is kind of needed
in an investigator
396
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,720
and the stability
that you also need.
397
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:08,839
[computer beeps]
398
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,839
The work
that Hadi and Bellingcat
399
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,160
have been doing, is critical.
400
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,839
They're grabbing, obviously,
large quantities of information
401
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,079
much of which can disappear
quite quickly from the internet
402
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,039
and preserving it,
so that we have it
403
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,680
for future accountability
mechanisms.
404
00:22:31,079 --> 00:22:32,279
One of the things that Hadi
405
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:33,559
and the Syrian archive
have been doing
406
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,279
and we've been really trying
to support them in that process
407
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,160
is figuring out how do you code,
408
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,960
label and tag
all of these videos
409
00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:44,359
so that if, for example,
a legal investigator later says,
410
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,960
"We want to investigate
this particular crime,
411
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:48,920
on a particular date
and a particular place"
412
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,599
they can pull up
that information quickly,
413
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,440
they can explain how they got it
414
00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:55,559
so it's transparent
for a court of law
415
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,440
and can then actually send it on
416
00:22:57,519 --> 00:22:59,680
to the investigators in a way
that makes sense.
417
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,119
Hadi and I have been working
a lot together on ideas
418
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,279
about how open source
information
419
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:09,920
can be archived
and actually be used
420
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,960
and stored in a useful way.
421
00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:13,759
Hadi, you know, he's lived this.
422
00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:14,839
This is his home,
423
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,319
these are his friends
and family.
424
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,519
He is part of that community
of Syrians
425
00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:20,640
who are living abroad,
working on this.
426
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,680
So, he really cares
about these issues
427
00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:23,920
and cares about doing it right
428
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,039
especially when it comes
to the work
429
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,680
we're doing on justice
and accountability.
430
00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:29,640
[church bell dings]
431
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,000
Timmi is helping
to understand better
432
00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:50,279
what happened
in the impact sites.
433
00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:53,680
So what I'm asking Timmi
is if he can create
434
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:57,559
a 3D structure of this location
435
00:23:58,039 --> 00:23:59,880
so then we can go in detail
436
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,880
and see what happened
in each building.
437
00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:12,039
[in German]
438
00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:48,359
[chuckles]
439
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:52,559
[indistinct chatter]
440
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,720
[in English] I've got an update
from Timmi and Hadi
441
00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:59,160
about the location
of the bombing.
442
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,279
The big challenge
for journalists is just,
443
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,400
if you think about the work
that Bellingcat is doing
444
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,920
the amount of time that it takes
to go through this.
445
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,680
So we have people on their
free time in the evenings.
446
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:13,279
You know, they're spending
hours and hours
447
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,400
going through this.
448
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,000
Uh, I see pressure
449
00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:18,319
with many traditional
journalist outfits
450
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,480
is that they're getting
so tight on resources
451
00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:23,640
and time these days
that it's hard for them
452
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,680
to actually spend enough time
to go through all of this
453
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:29,640
and analyze it in the way
that the volunteer groups can.
454
00:26:31,079 --> 00:26:32,759
In the case of Syria itself,
455
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:36,480
there's more hours
of the conflict online
456
00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:38,599
than hours
of the conflict itself.
457
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,480
It's the most documented
conflict in history.
458
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:46,519
I don't see big news agencies
doing any work like this.
459
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,519
This is the market one month
before the attack.
460
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,799
There are more than 60 people
who were killed.
461
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,440
It's just a market.
462
00:26:58,519 --> 00:27:00,359
I mean,
there is no military airbase.
463
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:02,960
It's not near the frontline.
464
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:05,079
It was attacked
by an air strike.
465
00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:09,440
Why would you attack civilians?
I mean, what is the reason?
466
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,960
[engine rumbles]
467
00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:23,599
The delegations stating
unfounded allegations
468
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,680
against my country
469
00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:27,559
are depending
on amateur bloggers and videos.
470
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,079
Among one of them
is a very famous British citizen
471
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,599
called Eliot Higgins
472
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,839
whose online inputs
about the situation in Syria
473
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,799
are intensively
yet mistakenly adopted
474
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,799
by many media outlets
as well as governments.
475
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:44,880
According to Wikipedia,
and I quote.
476
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,400
Eliot Higgins, in 2012,
"when he began bloggin
477
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,440
the Syrian situation"
478
00:27:50,519 --> 00:27:53,960
was an unemployed finance
and admin worker
479
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,920
who spent his days taking care
of his child at home.
480
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,200
Higgins' analysis
of Syrian weapons
481
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:01,400
began as a hobby,
482
00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:04,319
out of his home
in his spare time.
483
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,599
Higgins has no background
or training in weapons
484
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,799
and is entirely self-taught.
485
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,720
He said,
"Before the Arab spring,
486
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:16,559
I knew no more about weapons
than the average Xbox owner.
487
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,279
I had no knowledge beyond
what I had learned
488
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,480
from Arnold Schwarzenegger
and Rambo."
489
00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:26,319
Never been to Syria,
doesn't speak a word of Arabic
490
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,119
and he conducts
his profound research
491
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,920
from the comfort of his armchair
in his home.
492
00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:40,759
[water sloshes]
493
00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:48,680
Even at school I was really,
crushingly shy.
494
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:50,880
So how did I get over that?
495
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,519
It's being passionate
about something
496
00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:54,160
and then doing stuff
that is outside
497
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,240
of your comfort zone.
498
00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:56,880
And partly because of
my wife telling me to stop
499
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,319
being shy
about stuff all the time,
500
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,400
and that helps.
501
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,039
[baby mumbles]
502
00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:02,960
She came to England
to study English
503
00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:04,039
and be an au pair,
504
00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:05,839
then we met
and we just started dating.
505
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,680
Uh, also, going to Turkey
to propose
506
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:09,160
to someone was quite a,
507
00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:12,039
for me
an amazingly bizarrely brave
508
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:13,559
and insane thing to do.
509
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,440
So that's when
I kind of started to change
510
00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:18,519
and then this came along
511
00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:19,759
and then I had
to start doing stuff
512
00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:21,559
that really was outside
my comfort zone.
513
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,039
[indistinct chatter]
514
00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:26,000
When I first started coming up
with the idea
515
00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:28,480
for the website
at the start of 2014
516
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:30,599
I was trying to think
of a clever name.
517
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,559
And I basically failed.
518
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:33,799
I was saying,
519
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,839
"I'll call it the Open
Source or Investigation Online",
520
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,400
crap names.
521
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,400
And they were all taken anyway.
522
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,599
Either way, thank God they were,
523
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,039
because I probably
would've picked one.
524
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:45,640
So, I was stuck
and I contacted my friend.
525
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,480
He's a playwright, so I thought.
He knows words, so I'll ask him.
526
00:29:49,559 --> 00:29:52,720
Quite quickly he said.
"What about Belling the Cat?"
527
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880
A mouse town
was recently visited by a cat.
528
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,400
Since then, all of the mice
haven't had any peace.
529
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,559
The mice decided
to be rid of this cat.
530
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,599
-No cat.
-No cat.
531
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:08,599
I have an idea.
532
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,160
How about putting a bell around
the cat's neck?
533
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,559
How about you bell the cat
as you seem to be
534
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,680
the one with the great idea?
535
00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:19,799
[mumbles]
Me? No, no, no, I can't.
536
00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:23,599
Even the greatest ideas
are nothing
537
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,119
when they can't be done.
538
00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:27,880
So, what we're doing
at Bellingcat
539
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,480
is we're teaching people
how to bell the cat.
540
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,480
That's all you gonna eat.
541
00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:35,920
It's your favorite,
isn't it Ella?
542
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,119
Cashew nuts?
543
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,640
Phase 0, in a way,
was how the internet used to be
544
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,119
before social media
and smartphones.
545
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:43,279
To share a photograph
with someone
546
00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:44,400
you had to upload it up
to a site
547
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,240
and put a link in a forum.
548
00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:49,039
If someone read that forum
they would see the photograph.
549
00:30:50,119 --> 00:30:52,000
That's kind of
when I started getting involved,
550
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:53,799
when I was doing my blogging.
551
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,920
And that was the period up
until 2014
552
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,640
where NGO's and journalists
were becoming interested.
553
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,839
In part because of
what I was doing.
554
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,799
Now what's happening
is policy makers
555
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,079
are getting
a lot more interested in this.
556
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,440
Governments,
intelligence, military.
557
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:10,599
Because we're going out there
in this period
558
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,200
and challenging
the Russian government directly
559
00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:15,160
with evidence
that they can't refute.
560
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,079
We're making them look bad,
we're challenging
561
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,519
the narrative
they're trying to push.
562
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,559
That moved towards
the fourth period, in 2017
563
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,519
where we're now thinking
about this
564
00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:26,960
for justice and accountability.
565
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,640
So, Phase 5
is when we'll actually be
566
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,079
in court
with this kind of thing.
567
00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:51,079
So, this is the photograph
of the Buk that shot down MH17.
568
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,720
This is taken about four hours
before the shootdown.
569
00:31:54,559 --> 00:31:55,559
When we look at this,
570
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,200
we can see a few things
that are pretty obvious.
571
00:31:57,279 --> 00:31:59,319
Like, we have the Buk
right here,
572
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,160
in the back of a white Volvo
573
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,039
with a red low-loader trailer
behind it.
574
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:07,880
Also, we have, here, the Jeep.
575
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:13,880
If we look at other videos
of this convoy,
576
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,119
we can find the same vehicles
in each one.
577
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,759
So for example, right here,
578
00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:20,960
this is the white Volvo carrying
the Buk.
579
00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:26,839
And here you see the same Jeep
that we saw in the photograph
580
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,799
along with a video taken
two days prior
581
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,160
accompanying a number of Russian
582
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,359
and separatists' tanks
583
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,200
through eastern Ukraine
to Donetsk.
584
00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,720
This video was taken
585
00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:38,519
on the day
of the MH17 shoot down,
586
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:40,440
five hours
before the shoot down.
587
00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:43,039
You can see one
of the most important details.
588
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,680
Is on this Buk we can see
589
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:48,759
one, two, three, four missiles
on the Buk
590
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:50,119
that shot down MH17.
591
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,680
Five hours
before the shoot down.
592
00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:54,599
If we look at a video filmed
the next morning
593
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,200
around 5:00 or 6:00 in Luhansk
this missile was missing.
594
00:32:58,279 --> 00:32:59,559
There's only three missiles.
595
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,880
We know what happened
to that missile.
596
00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:06,400
There are many ways
to know exactly
597
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,559
when and where this video
was taken.
598
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,400
One reason or one way we know,
599
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:17,960
is that at the end of this video
we see fuel prices.
600
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:19,640
If we look at historical data
601
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,640
of what the fuel prices
were on the day
602
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,640
of the MH17 shoot down
and compare
603
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,119
they were the exact same prices
that we see right here.
604
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,960
So we know exactly
when the video was taken.
605
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:31,319
Also, there is even
a satellite image
606
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,519
showing the same vehicle
in Makiyivka.
607
00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:36,079
The satellite image
is on Google Earth,
608
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,160
anyone can find it.
609
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,920
It was taken at 11:08 a.m.
on the day of the shoot down.
610
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,240
With Google Earth
if we just go to Makiyivka
611
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,720
this is the gas station,
right here.
612
00:33:48,759 --> 00:33:50,440
Where the Buk passed by.
613
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:51,519
If we go further on,
614
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:53,640
we can go and view
like a time machine.
615
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:55,960
We can go back to the day
616
00:33:56,039 --> 00:33:57,759
of the MH17 shoot down
in Google Earth
617
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:00,160
and look at the satellite image
that was taken on that day.
618
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:08,289
July 17th, 2014.
619
00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:12,880
We can look here
and see this is the same.
620
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,159
These are the vehicles.
621
00:34:15,769 --> 00:34:19,400
Here. If you zoom in here,
very closely
622
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,480
It's hard to see
623
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,329
'cause the resolution
isn't very good.
624
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,769
But this video was taken
625
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,559
just about 45 seconds
626
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,000
before this satellite image
was taken.
627
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:32,840
It's a cosmic luck,
coincidence that this happened.
628
00:34:33,809 --> 00:34:36,199
You see right here,
you see the white cabin
629
00:34:36,289 --> 00:34:38,679
of the Volvo truck
carrying the Buk.
630
00:34:38,769 --> 00:34:40,480
This is the Buk right here.
631
00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:42,719
The one way we know
is the shadow being cast
632
00:34:42,809 --> 00:34:45,639
by the Buk is quite large
and it matches exactly
633
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,519
with what a Buk
should look like.
634
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,289
If we go through, we can match
every single element in here.
635
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,000
Even back at the gas station
636
00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:59,639
the arrangement of the cars
at the gas station.
637
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:04,719
You see here this white car
with the door open.
638
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,719
If you go back here,
you can see it here as well.
639
00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:11,679
This is the exact same scene
that was filmed in this video,
640
00:35:11,769 --> 00:35:13,239
just 45 seconds later.
641
00:35:14,289 --> 00:35:16,000
A website calling itself
a resource
642
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:17,840
for citizen
investigative journalists
643
00:35:18,329 --> 00:35:20,840
is to publish
its own findings today.
644
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,360
Anastasia Churkina looks at
645
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,329
what this information
is based on.
646
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,559
What does it take
to shape public opinion
647
00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:29,400
and be a newsmaker
over the conflict in Ukraine.
648
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,960
finding answers and solutions
649
00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:33,639
which eluded even
the brightest political minds?
650
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,880
Could a cozy couch and a laptop
651
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,809
with internet access
to endless social media posts
652
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,329
be enough to paint
the full picture?
653
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,719
RT went to find the man
behind Bellingcat
654
00:35:43,809 --> 00:35:45,159
for his side of the story.
655
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,719
When a Russia Today
656
00:35:46,809 --> 00:35:49,480
reporter basically tried
to hunt me down in my home town
657
00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:50,559
even though he knew
658
00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,289
I wasn't interested
in being interviewed by him
659
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,519
and I wasn't going to meet him.
660
00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:55,920
They turned that
into a whole thing.
661
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,960
I had a week where I had
like five different interviews,
662
00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:00,159
one TV crew
in my house every day.
663
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,360
It was like I won the lottery.
664
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:02,559
Must have been
for the neighbors.
665
00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:03,639
And I didn't leave,
666
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,119
so they must've wondered
if I murdered someone.
667
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:07,559
So they came every day,
one of them was CNN.
668
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:10,039
And CNN did a whole piece on it,
it was a big deal
669
00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:12,480
but they described me
as a stay-at-home Mr. Mom.
670
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,719
Sometimes we use the phrase
"accidental journalists"
671
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,719
for somebody
who happens to be there
672
00:36:23,809 --> 00:36:26,039
when the plane goes down
and takes the photograph.
673
00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:29,440
But this is different
because it's not accidental.
674
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:30,519
It's intentional.
675
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:33,960
And they are an increasingly
important category of the public
676
00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:37,440
and people in professions
that touch on this work
677
00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:41,119
should just get used
to their existence.
678
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,840
[in Dutch]
679
00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:55,960
[drone whirs]
680
00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:57,679
[beeps]
681
00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:46,039
[drone whirs]
682
00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:49,159
[in English]
Christiaan is really brilliant.
683
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,239
I hired him because he has
684
00:37:50,329 --> 00:37:52,119
certain language skills
and experience
685
00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:53,599
that other people don't.
686
00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:55,960
He's amazingly good
at geolocation.
687
00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:58,360
He's like,
supernaturally good at it.
688
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,599
If we ever get stuck,
he'll find it in five minutes.
689
00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:02,559
It's like,
amazing how he does it.
690
00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:05,559
[in Dutch]
691
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,329
[people clamoring]
692
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:05,119
[in English]
I will present in English
693
00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:06,920
because I just know some words.
694
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,679
Um, but welcome everyone here
this morning.
695
00:40:10,769 --> 00:40:16,079
And I'd like to talk about
a very new way of investigating.
696
00:40:16,159 --> 00:40:18,039
And this
is basically investigating
697
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:20,769
using only digital,
698
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,559
openly available information
699
00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:25,289
and by looking at the
visual clues in the photo.
700
00:40:25,809 --> 00:40:28,599
And this has become known
as the Bellingcat method.
701
00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:31,329
Here we have
the Russian Ministry of Defense.
702
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,119
Their official Twitter account,
as you can see, it's verified.
703
00:40:34,599 --> 00:40:38,400
They say, what they show,
"Irrefutable evidence
704
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,400
that US actually
are covering ISIS combat units."
705
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,840
That they're supporting ISIS.
706
00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:45,239
Let's see where it comes from.
707
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,559
This is a screenshot
from a YouTube video,
708
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,559
which is a game simulator,
a Gunship simulator.
709
00:40:53,039 --> 00:40:55,679
The Russian Ministry of Defense
took a picture,
710
00:40:55,769 --> 00:40:57,199
a screenshot, from a videogame
711
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,719
and they presented it
as evidence.
712
00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:02,559
Which is fascinating,
713
00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:07,360
because why would they present
a videogame still as evidence?
714
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:10,329
Every country
has a foreign policy.
715
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,809
Every country has reasons
to hope or believe
716
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,000
that certain outcomes
717
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:16,440
will happen
in different countries.
718
00:41:16,769 --> 00:41:19,519
If you think globally,
some of them are subtle,
719
00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:20,719
some of these are quite clear.
720
00:41:20,809 --> 00:41:23,329
For Russia,
it's in Russia's interest
721
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,159
to destabilize Western-Europe.
722
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,329
It's in Russia's interest
for NATO
723
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,809
to no longer exist.
724
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,199
There are many reasons
why they would enjoy
725
00:41:31,289 --> 00:41:33,679
the European Union to not exist
in the way that it does.
726
00:41:33,769 --> 00:41:35,199
It's on Russia's border.
727
00:41:35,289 --> 00:41:37,809
So if you want to make
these countries
728
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,159
even more unstable
729
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,769
you're flooding
these communities
730
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,559
with disinformation.
731
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:48,079
[indistinct chatter]
732
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,920
[in Dutch]
733
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:27,119
[in English]
"A car bomb kills at least eight
734
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:29,719
in the Baghdad market.
Police and medics.
735
00:42:29,809 --> 00:42:31,329
A car bomb parked
in a shopping street
736
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:32,840
of a Shi'ite district of Baghdad
737
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,329
killed at least eight people
738
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,960
and wounded
more than 30 others on Sunday
739
00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:39,329
police and medical staff said."
740
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,960
[in Dutch]
741
00:42:47,769 --> 00:42:49,920
[in English] "The latest
parked car bomb kills ten
742
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,519
in Baghdad neighborhood."
743
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:52,719
[in Dutch]
744
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,920
[explosion]
745
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,840
[people clamoring]
746
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,599
[in English] I've been
a journalist for 50 years
747
00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:41,960
and I have never known
the system of journalism
748
00:44:42,039 --> 00:44:43,719
to be in such a perilous state.
749
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,679
There's hardly any money spent
on training journalists.
750
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,639
There aren't many journalists
with decent jobs these days.
751
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,199
Most of them
are working freelance.
752
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,840
It's very difficult
to earn a living.
753
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,480
Um, big media organizations
754
00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:58,199
don't spend money
on investigative journalism.
755
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,239
They're not sort of
properly representing
756
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:01,639
the communities they serve.
757
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,400
The contribution
to democracy of good,
758
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,599
reliable, ethical journalism
is diminishing by the day.
759
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:08,880
Every newspaper that closes,
760
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,280
every radio station
that goes down
761
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,440
every newsroom in TV
that is further constrained
762
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:16,199
is making journalism weaker.
763
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:22,119
There's a very small
number of journalists globally
764
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,039
that can do the kind of
forensic verification work
765
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:26,480
on videos and images
766
00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:29,159
which is why it's very effective
767
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,400
to put out something
that's false
768
00:45:31,519 --> 00:45:34,239
and it often gets used
by mainstream newsrooms
769
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,519
that don't know
how to do the checks themselves.
770
00:45:36,599 --> 00:45:40,960
And so, we need independent
professional experts
771
00:45:41,039 --> 00:45:42,320
like Bellingcat
772
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,679
who can help audiences navigate
this information space.
773
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:53,480
This is the James Foley
execution video being faked.
774
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:55,880
They've tried quite hard
to recreate it.
775
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,320
One thing they've done
is they've made sure
776
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:58,639
they've got wind blowing in.
777
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,559
Do you see
how his clothes are moving?
778
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:03,000
They've tried quite hard
to make it look really like
779
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:04,920
the actual execution video.
780
00:46:06,079 --> 00:46:08,679
They want you
to not trust yourself.
781
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,159
In an era of social media,
you want to get clicks.
782
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,480
So, having a headline that says,
783
00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:16,079
"You're not going to believe
that this beheading isn't true"
784
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:17,559
will get you many more clicks.
785
00:46:18,119 --> 00:46:20,039
Anybody who is making this
is thinking,
786
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:22,159
"How can I get many people
to look at a video
787
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,199
that might undermine trust
in anything they see?"
788
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,280
But we do have to acknowledge
that many Western countries
789
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,840
have used similar forms
of information warfare
790
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,199
in other countries
around the world.
791
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,199
So, what we're seeing right now
in this focus on Russia
792
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:36,679
we do have to understand
793
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,079
it gets used
by many other countries.
794
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,639
Anybody who is trying
to find out
795
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,599
what actually happened
796
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,920
and bring it
to the attention of the world,
797
00:46:49,599 --> 00:46:51,760
is doing an important job.
798
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,840
Whether it's their profession
or their passion.
799
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,239
And we should appreciate them
for what they're doing.
800
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,480
We should
also ask questions about
801
00:47:03,559 --> 00:47:05,320
what they're doing so we know
whether to trust it.
802
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,320
That's why transparency
is the method of trust
803
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:10,960
for this kind of work.
804
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:12,039
[all cheer]
805
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:14,159
At the same time
that they're doing their job,
806
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,840
bad actors are doing their job
to try to undermine trust
807
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,480
in any kind of journalism,
any kind of verification.
808
00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:25,159
There are people in the world
809
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,559
who want all forms
of verification to just go away
810
00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:30,360
so they don't have to deal
with them.
811
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,320
They want to be able
to say anything
812
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:33,559
and have it believed.
813
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,599
This sleazy guy right over here,
from ABC,
814
00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:39,280
he's a sleaze in my book.
815
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,320
The fake media tried to stop us
from going to the White House,
816
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,920
but I'm president
and they're not.
817
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,599
Right now they're winning.
818
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,199
So we need people fighting
against that.
819
00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:57,119
[in Russian]
820
00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:18,320
[in English]
We've been targeted
821
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:19,840
by cyber-attacks from Russia.
822
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,320
We've been targeted by,
823
00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:24,599
you know, various criticism
in the media.
824
00:48:24,679 --> 00:48:26,360
People have been sent
to track me down
825
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,039
in Leicester by Russia Today.
826
00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:29,559
We had
the Russian Foreign Ministry
827
00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:31,920
and the Russian MOD
criticize our work and attack us
828
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,960
so there are possible dangers
in doing this kind of work.
829
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:37,400
[in German]
830
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:31,760
[in English]
Over there behind the fence,
831
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,800
that's the former military base
were I served from 1998 to 1999.
832
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,239
We actually
had the Buk system there.
833
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,480
This is the Buk-M1,
834
00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:46,039
so the missile launcher part
of the system.
835
00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:48,199
This is a similar one
to the system
836
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,960
we saw now in Ukraine
when MH17 was shot down.
837
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,000
Here we have the missile.
838
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:55,880
This is where the warhead
would be.
839
00:49:56,119 --> 00:49:58,360
So this is actually
the part that explodes.
840
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,320
This has layers
of metal fragments on it
841
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,760
different sized metal fragments
that are actually
842
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:06,519
then the destructive component
843
00:50:06,599 --> 00:50:08,519
that then actually
brings down the aircraft.
844
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,159
And so the other parts here,
845
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:12,719
so there's the guidance
part there
846
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,760
that actually guides
the missile to the target.
847
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:15,880
It can maneuvre,
848
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,039
it can actually move in the air
if the target is moving.
849
00:50:19,119 --> 00:50:21,559
When the radar
is illuminating the target,
850
00:50:21,639 --> 00:50:22,719
then that seeker head
851
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,960
is actually guided
to that radar beam.
852
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:27,039
[whooshes]
853
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,000
[sighs]
854
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,880
First time I'm sitting
inside of a Buk,
855
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,239
so that's exciting.
856
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,760
So which one do I push
to fire a missile?
857
00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:45,639
[machine whirrs]
858
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,320
Now put yourself
in the situation of that crew
859
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:49,440
that shot down the aircraft.
860
00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:51,119
Based on the information
that's out there,
861
00:50:51,199 --> 00:50:55,079
the crew crossed over
into Ukraine the previous night.
862
00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:57,480
So, did they get a lot of sleep?
863
00:50:57,559 --> 00:50:59,440
You know, they were travelling
to the place.
864
00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:02,159
And sort of that was actually
their mental state?
865
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,840
Were they just focused
on that they'd get a call
866
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,960
and then they shoot down
the first thing
867
00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:09,440
that they pick up on the radar?
868
00:51:09,519 --> 00:51:11,880
-[machine whirrs]
-[beeping]
869
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,679
Hard to say. Hard to get
inside people's heads.
870
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:20,079
[whooshes]
871
00:51:23,079 --> 00:51:24,320
We mapped out and found
872
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,440
all the different sightings
of this convoy.
873
00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:30,199
It's clear that it left
from Kursk to the border.
874
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,199
In Kursk there's only
one anti-aircraft brigade,
875
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:34,960
which is the 53rd
anti-aircraft brigade
876
00:51:35,039 --> 00:51:36,920
which made it
the most logical answer
877
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,039
for which brigade
this Buk belonged to.
878
00:51:40,119 --> 00:51:43,840
Then we went through
social media profiles for people
879
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,360
who serve
in this military unit in Kursk.
880
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,360
Finding profiles of soldiers
is super easy.
881
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,840
You just go to a social media
site like Contactia,
882
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,199
which is the Russian Facebook.
883
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,119
There's this filter,
you can say,
884
00:51:55,199 --> 00:51:56,920
"only people who list
their military service
885
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,039
as this military unit."
886
00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:00,800
You just type
in the military unit number
887
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,079
for the 53rd brigade
888
00:52:02,159 --> 00:52:05,039
and say they started service
in 2013 or 2014.
889
00:52:05,559 --> 00:52:08,039
Then you have a list
of 20, 30, 50 soldiers.
890
00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:09,679
And there you go.
891
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,440
Of those profiles
that you go through
892
00:52:12,519 --> 00:52:13,960
a lot of them posted photographs
893
00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:16,519
and videos of being
in the convoy
894
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,039
that went from Kursk
to the Ukrainian border.
895
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:21,119
In some of them
you can actually see the Buk
896
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:22,719
that shot down MH17
in the background.
897
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,440
They even posted them
standing next to road signs
898
00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:28,239
with the name of the city
that they were in.
899
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:29,840
So you can track them
pretty easily,
900
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,079
because, you know,
they're 19, 20, 21-year-old kids
901
00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:34,000
who are kind of off
on a trip, right?
902
00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:35,159
To the border.
903
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:37,920
One of the sources
of information
904
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,719
is not just
from the soldiers themselves
905
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:40,960
but from the people
close to them
906
00:52:41,039 --> 00:52:43,679
who receive information
from the soldiers.
907
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,559
Maybe this information
is too sensitive,
908
00:52:45,639 --> 00:52:47,320
they feel,
to post on their private pages
909
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,880
but, within these
trusted communities,
910
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:50,960
among other wives,
911
00:52:51,039 --> 00:52:52,639
mothers and girlfriends
of soldiers
912
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:53,840
they'll share this information
913
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,079
because they feel like
maybe the world isn't watching.
914
00:52:57,159 --> 00:52:58,559
There's lots of these groups.
915
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:00,119
It's not just like
there's one site
916
00:53:00,199 --> 00:53:01,199
but here's one of them,
917
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,320
it's called Mama Soldata,
which is "soldier's mother".
918
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,719
And one of these posts
that one of the mothers
919
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,679
of one of the soldiers posted
was on June 23rd 2014
920
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,159
which was the day
that the convoy left from Kursk
921
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:15,480
on its way
to the Ukrainian border.
922
00:53:15,559 --> 00:53:16,639
And she wrote...
923
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,960
Excuse my awful accent,
but it means,
924
00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:31,000
"Today I accidentally found out
my son didn't tell me,
925
00:53:31,639 --> 00:53:34,719
that our boys
weren't sent to the field,
926
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,519
but instead
to the Rostov Oblast"
927
00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:40,960
which is on the border,
to the border of Ukraine.
928
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:47,159
So here, she said even though
the sons may not be saying
929
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:48,840
"we're going to the
Ukrainian border"
930
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:50,639
on their Contactia pages,
931
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,960
the mothers, wives
and girlfriends, they knew.
932
00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:56,039
They were talking much more
openly about this stuff
933
00:53:56,119 --> 00:53:58,800
because it concerned them,
obviously, very personally
934
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:00,960
and they didn't have
the same stringent
935
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:03,960
or expected requirements
of secrecy,
936
00:54:04,039 --> 00:54:05,199
like you had in the military.
937
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:07,199
There aren't going to be
any consequences
938
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,119
for them leaking information
or whatever.
939
00:54:16,639 --> 00:54:19,519
Ladies and gentlemen,
welcome to this press conference
940
00:54:19,599 --> 00:54:23,719
of the Joint Investigation Team,
in short, the JIT.
941
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,039
The JIT performs
criminal investigation
942
00:54:27,119 --> 00:54:28,599
into the downing of flight MH17
943
00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:30,519
on the 17th of July 2014.
944
00:54:31,039 --> 00:54:34,199
In the JIT, Australia, Belgium,
Malaysia,
945
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:35,519
the Netherlands and Ukraine
946
00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:37,039
work closely together.
947
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,840
Today, we will make a number
of specific requests
948
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,599
and we'll give you
partial insight
949
00:54:42,679 --> 00:54:44,559
into the progress
of the investigation.
950
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,000
We urgently appeal to everyone,
anywhere in the world.
951
00:54:49,079 --> 00:54:51,800
Who can give
the JIT more information
952
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:52,880
about the following,
953
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:54,760
Hello.
954
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,000
[in German]
955
00:55:03,679 --> 00:55:05,920
[in English] So this is a call
between two guys,
956
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:07,880
they're obviously
speaking Russian.
957
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,880
And one of them is referred to
as Nikolay Fyodorovich.
958
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,119
This other guy
with the higher voice
959
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:15,800
we don't know exactly
what his role is with MH17,
960
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:17,400
but obviously
it's something important
961
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,480
if the JIT,
Joint Investigation Team
962
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,639
put out a call for witnesses
about who these guys were.
963
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,960
So there's a few different ways
we can approach it.
964
00:55:26,039 --> 00:55:29,559
Um, we were planning to work
with some Russian partners.
965
00:55:29,639 --> 00:55:32,840
Because there's a lot we can do
through digital,
966
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:33,920
open-source research
967
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,480
but a lot of avenues
are opened up
968
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:36,960
when we work
with Russian partners
969
00:55:37,039 --> 00:55:38,360
who have access
to more information.
970
00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:41,559
We're working
with a Russian journalist
971
00:55:41,639 --> 00:55:43,960
who works for The Insider.
972
00:55:44,039 --> 00:55:45,920
He, over a period of weeks,
973
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,840
was phoning up
the person in question
974
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,920
saying that he would like
to do an interview
975
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,800
for a Russian Ministry
of Defense newspaper.
976
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,800
It took him a long time
to set this interview up,
977
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,360
and the guy gave him
20 minutes in total.
978
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,719
So we've got a really
lengthy session of him talking.
979
00:56:03,199 --> 00:56:06,039
Um, and so that's
what we've used
980
00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:07,239
for the analyses.
981
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:18,199
We have this new theory
about the identity
982
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:19,519
of this one Russian commander
983
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:21,159
who's codenamed Delfin.
984
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,760
And right now there is audio
analyses happening of his voice
985
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,119
to try to match him out
986
00:56:26,199 --> 00:56:28,760
to the audio intercepts
that JIT released.
987
00:56:29,519 --> 00:56:31,239
[in Russian]
988
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,079
[in English]
The audio lab in Vilnius
989
00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:48,159
is the one we chose
990
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,639
because it's got a very good
reputation internationally
991
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,800
plus their familiarity
with Russian.
992
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,000
[in Russian]
993
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,840
[clears throat]
994
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:26,840
[in English]
Hello, this is Eliot Higgins.
995
00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:31,760
Hello, this is Vidmadov speaking
from Vilnius.
996
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,000
Oh, hi. How are you doing?
I'm good, thanks.
997
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,960
So we finished our examination
998
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,519
and our experts came
to the conclusion
999
00:57:42,599 --> 00:57:45,800
that in one conversation
one speaker
1000
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:47,599
highly probably matches.
1001
00:57:47,679 --> 00:57:48,679
Okay.
1002
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,800
So it's highly probable
that one of them matches.
1003
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,800
This is the one that is Delfin?
1004
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:55,719
Probably, yes. Probably, yes.
1005
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:57,880
How sure are you that you
have discovered
1006
00:57:57,960 --> 00:57:59,039
the identity of Delfin?
1007
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:01,239
We're very certain
at this point.
1008
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,000
We've done open-source analysis
1009
00:58:03,079 --> 00:58:04,679
that pointed us
to an individual.
1010
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,159
We managed to require
a recording of him speaking.
1011
00:58:08,239 --> 00:58:12,440
We sent it off to two separate
forensic analysis laboratories
1012
00:58:12,519 --> 00:58:15,079
who came back and told us
it was a match.
1013
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:18,039
But does this prove
that Russia was involved?
1014
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:19,119
Involved how?
1015
00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:20,840
Well, we can certainly say
1016
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,280
that Russia sent
the missile launcher
1017
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:23,599
that shot down MH17.
1018
00:58:23,679 --> 00:58:26,000
And this is part
of a wider effort by Russia
1019
00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:29,239
to send military equipment
into Ukraine during 2014
1020
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,039
to support separatist forces,
1021
00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:33,199
something Vladimir Putin
has denied repeatedly.
1022
00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:37,159
Are you saying this was not
a Russian missile?
1023
00:58:38,119 --> 00:58:39,719
This was not
a Russian army missile?
1024
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:41,960
[in Russian]
1025
00:58:43,239 --> 00:58:45,559
[in English] It's in people's
interests to argue
1026
00:58:45,639 --> 00:58:47,599
that Bellingcat
are not trustworthy.
1027
00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:50,599
So because of the work
they have done
1028
00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:53,199
they have been undermined
by the Russian government,
1029
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:54,719
but also by others.
1030
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:56,800
And so no surprises there.
1031
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,440
If you're trying
to discredit somebody
1032
00:58:59,519 --> 00:59:01,199
who is pushing out information
1033
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:02,719
that you don't want
to be pushed out,
1034
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,280
it's in your interest
to undermine that as a source.
1035
00:59:12,239 --> 00:59:13,440
[beeps]
1036
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:27,440
I'm really interested
1037
00:59:27,519 --> 00:59:29,480
in how you apply
open-source investigation
1038
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:34,280
to justice and accountability.
That's a big, complex topic.
1039
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,239
We're looking
at one of the biggest
1040
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:37,599
and most significant changes
1041
00:59:37,679 --> 00:59:39,159
around justice
and accountability
1042
00:59:39,239 --> 00:59:40,719
that may have ever occurred.
1043
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:43,960
Because you're talking about
a massive amount
1044
00:59:44,039 --> 00:59:45,760
of evidence available online.
1045
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,159
Um, and lots of questions
about how they use it.
1046
00:59:48,239 --> 00:59:50,920
So, in the summer of 2017,
1047
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,400
the International Criminal Court
1048
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,440
published their
first arrest warrant
1049
00:59:54,519 --> 00:59:55,760
that was based
on videos uploaded
1050
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:57,760
to Facebook showing executions.
1051
01:00:14,119 --> 01:00:17,920
[in Dutch]
1052
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:23,920
[in Arabic]
1053
01:00:27,159 --> 01:00:28,960
[in Dutch]
1054
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:37,400
[gunshots]
1055
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:38,519
[in Arabic]
1056
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:47,880
[in Dutch]
1057
01:01:29,519 --> 01:01:30,800
[in English]
So one of the reasons
1058
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,280
why the Werfalli case
is so important historically
1059
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,679
in getting legal accountability
for these crimes
1060
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,199
is that it was one of the
first ever arrest warrants
1061
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,159
issued by the
International Criminal Court
1062
01:01:40,239 --> 01:01:42,880
to be based almost solely
on information
1063
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:44,559
that was taken
from social media.
1064
01:01:44,639 --> 01:01:46,440
They of course
had other resources
1065
01:01:46,519 --> 01:01:47,840
that they were relying upon
1066
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:49,760
but when you read
the arrest warrant,
1067
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,559
you see that much of it is based
on information
1068
01:01:51,639 --> 01:01:53,199
from Facebook and Twitter.
1069
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,000
So this is sort of
a monumental point in time
1070
01:01:56,079 --> 01:01:57,079
where we're realizing
1071
01:01:57,159 --> 01:01:59,079
that we really need
to be grabbing information
1072
01:01:59,159 --> 01:02:01,079
from those platforms
and preserving it.
1073
01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:03,760
Because that information
is providing the basis
1074
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:05,239
for legal cases in a way
1075
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,440
that quite frankly
never has before.
1076
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,159
[quirky music]
1077
01:02:20,519 --> 01:02:23,159
So what is happening
with Werfalli right now?
1078
01:02:23,239 --> 01:02:26,079
He doesn't really seem to care
about the warrant.
1079
01:02:26,159 --> 01:02:29,039
I'm just wondering,
after the arrest warrant,
1080
01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:34,239
if it doesn't have
any direct impact on him
1081
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:36,519
then many others will be doing
1082
01:02:36,599 --> 01:02:39,639
the same type
of random executions.
1083
01:02:41,039 --> 01:02:42,639
I think this is one
of the messages
1084
01:02:42,719 --> 01:02:44,360
that they wanted to send also
1085
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,039
to people like Werfalli.
1086
01:02:46,119 --> 01:02:47,679
He's still walking around,
1087
01:02:48,639 --> 01:02:51,440
and maybe he will be
all the time.
1088
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,519
This still does give
the message, showing,
1089
01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:57,880
okay, this footage can be used
in a legal case.
1090
01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:59,960
[indistinct chatter]
1091
01:03:01,639 --> 01:03:03,079
[in Dutch]
1092
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:04,920
[in English]
Werfalli was an interesting case
1093
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,599
because he handed himself
in to the Libyan authorities.
1094
01:04:08,679 --> 01:04:10,000
There were massive protests
1095
01:04:10,079 --> 01:04:12,719
by supporters
and he was released.
1096
01:04:13,239 --> 01:04:15,679
And they posted a video of him
on Instagram
1097
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,000
having a special release cake.
1098
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:20,519
So that was a bizarre thing
to see.
1099
01:04:20,599 --> 01:04:23,880
He's currently still wanted
by the ICC,
1100
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,039
but he's currently
not in jail anywhere.
1101
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:29,960
I think there's a good chance
1102
01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:31,440
Werfalli could be brought
to justice.
1103
01:04:31,519 --> 01:04:34,480
I think the video information
that we have against him,
1104
01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:35,559
is do damning
1105
01:04:35,639 --> 01:04:37,880
and it so clearly ties him
to the potential crimes
1106
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,599
that were alleged
have been committed
1107
01:04:39,679 --> 01:04:41,679
that it's really hard
to turn away
1108
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:42,760
from that video and say,
1109
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:44,519
"Oh, no,
he doesn't have any ties
1110
01:04:44,599 --> 01:04:45,960
to what's taken place."
1111
01:04:46,039 --> 01:04:47,519
Um, so the fact
that these videos
1112
01:04:47,599 --> 01:04:48,599
are being grabbed,
1113
01:04:48,679 --> 01:04:49,760
that they're being preserved
1114
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,000
that there are different videos
being collected
1115
01:04:52,079 --> 01:04:53,519
by the International
Criminal Court
1116
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:55,960
from what Eliot and Bellingcat
have been grabbing
1117
01:04:56,039 --> 01:04:58,119
it creates
a much richer environment
1118
01:04:58,199 --> 01:04:59,760
for providing the evidence
1119
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:01,039
that will be needed long term.
1120
01:05:01,119 --> 01:05:03,400
Now the challenge
will be getting him into custody
1121
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,119
and actually
getting him extradited
1122
01:05:05,199 --> 01:05:06,760
so that you can have a trial.
1123
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:08,159
But that's really
a political question
1124
01:05:08,239 --> 01:05:09,440
and not a technical one.
1125
01:05:13,239 --> 01:05:15,239
[bell ringing]
1126
01:05:26,119 --> 01:05:31,320
[in Dutch]
1127
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:00,480
[in English]
When you know people online
1128
01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:02,239
and something happens to them
in the real world
1129
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:03,920
and they're suddenly not online
1130
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,079
you realize how much
of how you reach out to them
1131
01:06:06,159 --> 01:06:09,480
is through, you know,
directly contacting them online.
1132
01:06:09,559 --> 01:06:11,400
You know, sending them
a direct message on Twitter
1133
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:12,960
or contacting them on Slack.
1134
01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:14,400
Uh, you know,
when we phone him up,
1135
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:15,960
there's no answer on his phone.
1136
01:06:16,039 --> 01:06:21,239
So we suddenly felt
very disconnected from him.
1137
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:26,119
Um, considering
the pressure we get
1138
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:27,360
from the Russian government
1139
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,280
it's very worrying
when someone just disappears.
1140
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,599
[in Dutch]
1141
01:06:48,599 --> 01:06:50,400
[in English] One of the
possibilities that is added
1142
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:52,079
to our list of things
that could happen to him
1143
01:06:52,159 --> 01:06:54,960
is maybe it has been a State
suddenly trying to do something.
1144
01:06:55,039 --> 01:06:56,760
And that is kind of worrying.
1145
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:57,960
You just have to look
at what happened
1146
01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:00,199
in the UK in 2018,
1147
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:01,480
with the Skripal poisoning.
1148
01:07:01,559 --> 01:07:03,559
[thunder rumbles]
1149
01:07:03,639 --> 01:07:07,559
It is now clear that Mr. Skripal
and his daughter were poisoned
1150
01:07:07,639 --> 01:07:09,719
with a military-grade
nerve agent
1151
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:11,840
of a type developed by Russia.
1152
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,440
This is part of a group
of nerve agents
1153
01:07:14,519 --> 01:07:15,960
known as Novichok.
1154
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,119
That's obviously very concerning
1155
01:07:18,199 --> 01:07:20,679
when even in the UK things
like that are happening.
1156
01:07:21,239 --> 01:07:22,639
[beeps]
1157
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,840
When you are investigating
what powerful people do
1158
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,079
whether they are states
or companies or billionaires
1159
01:07:46,159 --> 01:07:48,719
you are vulnerable
in many different ways.
1160
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,000
And you could be
investigated yourself.
1161
01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:52,760
You can be surveilled.
1162
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,440
Uh, you can have
propaganda campaigns
1163
01:07:56,519 --> 01:07:57,960
launched against you.
1164
01:07:58,039 --> 01:07:59,719
You can get harassed online.
1165
01:08:00,519 --> 01:08:01,639
All of that.
1166
01:08:02,199 --> 01:08:05,960
And I think the more important
your work is
1167
01:08:06,039 --> 01:08:07,960
and the closer it is to power
1168
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,639
the closer it gets
to figuring out
1169
01:08:11,719 --> 01:08:13,039
what power is doing,
1170
01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:15,519
the more risk there is.
1171
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,079
[in Russian]
1172
01:08:54,239 --> 01:08:56,279
[in Dutch]
1173
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:11,840
[in English]
Based on these specific features
1174
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:13,649
the JIT was able to retrieve
1175
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,279
a type of fingerprint
from this Buk-TELAR.
1176
01:09:17,039 --> 01:09:20,920
[in Dutch]
1177
01:09:41,159 --> 01:09:44,239
[in English] We realize
that the investigation
1178
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:45,880
collective Bellingcat
1179
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,359
has already concluded the same
and published it.
1180
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:50,960
[in Dutch]
1181
01:10:03,159 --> 01:10:05,039
[in English]
A question for Dutch TV?
1182
01:10:05,119 --> 01:10:06,119
-Hi.
-Hi.
1183
01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:09,039
Gert-Jan Dennekamp
from Nieuwsuur.
1184
01:10:09,569 --> 01:10:12,840
Um... um...
1185
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:15,760
In fact what we heard today
1186
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,439
was what you already
investigated
1187
01:10:18,529 --> 01:10:19,960
a couple of years back.
1188
01:10:20,039 --> 01:10:23,039
Uh, are you happy
with this result?
1189
01:10:23,119 --> 01:10:24,720
It's nice to see
that they agree with us.
1190
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:26,569
If they had presented
something completely different,
1191
01:10:26,649 --> 01:10:27,920
that would have been
a huge problem.
1192
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,199
But not only did we have
the stuff
1193
01:10:30,279 --> 01:10:31,359
that we saw on stage today
1194
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:32,439
but we've
had additional material
1195
01:10:32,529 --> 01:10:33,569
that further confirms
1196
01:10:33,649 --> 01:10:34,840
it's the same missile launcher.
1197
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:36,880
And tomorrow we'll be having
our own press conference
1198
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:38,720
about our new report releasing
as well.
1199
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,439
About something
that no one has read about yet,
1200
01:10:40,529 --> 01:10:41,800
so that will be big news.
1201
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:43,649
What can we expect tomorrow?
1202
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:45,760
Um, we're not going to say
too much at the moment
1203
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:50,000
because it's very sensitive,
but it involves more details
1204
01:10:50,079 --> 01:10:51,279
about who was responsible
1205
01:10:51,359 --> 01:10:54,960
and who was behind
what happened with MH17.
1206
01:10:55,039 --> 01:10:56,649
-Okay, thank you.
-Thank you.
1207
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:58,000
Good luck tomorrow.
1208
01:10:58,079 --> 01:10:59,199
[in Dutch]
1209
01:12:07,609 --> 01:12:12,079
[in English] I just received
a message from Julia,
1210
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,159
the daughter of Timmi.
1211
01:12:15,079 --> 01:12:18,359
"Unfortunately Timmi cannot talk
on the phone at the moment.
1212
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:20,720
He is currently in the hospital.
1213
01:12:21,279 --> 01:12:23,159
Should I give him a message
from you?"
1214
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:30,680
I answered her,
"Thanks, Julia, for the message.
1215
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:31,800
We are very worried.
1216
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,439
Can I come
to the hospital directly?"
1217
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,319
And she wrote back,
1218
01:12:38,399 --> 01:12:41,439
"At the moment
a visit would not be good.
1219
01:12:42,079 --> 01:12:43,239
He is still recovering
1220
01:12:43,319 --> 01:12:45,079
from a severe brain
inflammation.
1221
01:12:46,199 --> 01:12:50,079
He was in a coma for a few days,
but he is getting better.
1222
01:12:50,569 --> 01:12:54,079
It will take a while,
but he will be well soon.
1223
01:12:54,159 --> 01:12:57,439
I'm sorry to be the bearer
of such bad news."
1224
01:12:58,529 --> 01:12:59,720
He's doing well.
1225
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:01,880
I mean, he's lucky
and he's doing well.
1226
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:08,920
But it's still very sad news,
you know.
1227
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,000
[waves crashing]
1228
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:18,199
It's the first time
we've ever done
1229
01:13:18,279 --> 01:13:20,279
a press conference so everything
that is happening here
1230
01:13:20,359 --> 01:13:21,649
is the first time
I've tried to do anything.
1231
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,649
So, yeah, there's a lot
of moving parts
1232
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:25,000
that I'm very unfamiliar with,
1233
01:13:25,079 --> 01:13:26,840
so yeah, it's stressful.
1234
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,840
[indistinct chatter]
1235
01:13:34,569 --> 01:13:35,720
Welcome, everyone.
1236
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:36,800
Today, Bellingcat
1237
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:38,479
and The Insider
will be releasing details
1238
01:13:38,569 --> 01:13:41,920
of a new investigation
into the downing of MH17.
1239
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,920
One thing that we must make
clear is that we cannot, today,
1240
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,920
or basically at any time
1241
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:49,279
confirm exactly the role
of this person
1242
01:13:49,359 --> 01:13:52,319
who goes by the call name Orion.
1243
01:13:52,399 --> 01:13:54,279
As published
by the Joint Investigation Team
1244
01:13:54,359 --> 01:13:56,960
and earlier by the
Secret Service of the Ukraine
1245
01:13:57,039 --> 01:13:59,319
this person is...
1246
01:13:59,399 --> 01:14:04,199
Was, the highest-military
ranking officer at the time
1247
01:14:04,279 --> 01:14:06,960
in the so-called
Luhansk People's Republic.
1248
01:14:07,569 --> 01:14:09,239
He represented
1249
01:14:09,319 --> 01:14:12,529
the military intelligence
of Russia at the time
1250
01:14:12,609 --> 01:14:15,399
and he was in direct command
and control
1251
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:18,840
of the mercenary,
volunteer operations
1252
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,920
of military units and militants
in eastern Ukraine,
1253
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,960
in the Luhansk area
of eastern Ukraine.
1254
01:14:29,399 --> 01:14:33,159
Oleg Vladimirovich Ivannikov
is the full name,
1255
01:14:33,239 --> 01:14:35,359
the full legal name
that we've identified.
1256
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:38,880
He was born
on the 2nd of April 1967
1257
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,609
and his nickname is Orion.
1258
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:42,960
[in Dutch]
1259
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,239
[in English] Paul Eldering,
Telegraaf, Netherlands.
1260
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:13,439
How can you connect
1261
01:15:13,529 --> 01:15:17,399
this guy directly
to the downing of MH17?
1262
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:19,680
For now, the proof
is only circumstantial.
1263
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:23,680
We believe that the JIT
has the proof
1264
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:25,279
that they will publish
in due course.
1265
01:15:25,359 --> 01:15:28,720
At this point our reasons
to strongly believe
1266
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:30,039
in the hypothesis he's connected
1267
01:15:30,119 --> 01:15:33,079
is based on the fact
that two days
1268
01:15:33,159 --> 01:15:34,569
before the shooting down
1269
01:15:35,039 --> 01:15:37,760
his voice
was recorded confirming
1270
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:38,880
that they received the Buk
1271
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:41,359
and that they would start
shooting down planes.
1272
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:42,529
That was heard clearly
1273
01:15:42,609 --> 01:15:47,680
on a call released
on the 18th of July 2014.
1274
01:15:48,239 --> 01:15:50,319
From a chain
of command perspective,
1275
01:15:50,399 --> 01:15:53,159
we do not see a hypothesis
in which he's not involved.
1276
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:55,239
Okay, that's everything.
1277
01:15:55,319 --> 01:15:56,760
Thank you very much
for your time.
1278
01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:58,079
We'll be doing
one-on-one interviews
1279
01:15:58,159 --> 01:15:59,159
in five minutes.
1280
01:15:59,239 --> 01:16:00,319
Thank you very much.
1281
01:16:00,399 --> 01:16:02,279
[bell dings]
1282
01:16:08,039 --> 01:16:10,039
[indistinct chatter]
1283
01:16:15,359 --> 01:16:17,359
[crowd applause]
1284
01:16:19,359 --> 01:16:20,960
Well, thank you
for helping me out.
1285
01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:26,039
And yes, well,
it's a big surprise, I think.
1286
01:16:26,119 --> 01:16:27,359
[giggles]
1287
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:31,609
The 2017 Innovation Award
goes to Christiaan Triebert.
1288
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:33,680
[all cheer]
1289
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,720
Bellingcat has developed
a lot of the talent
1290
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:43,960
that's doing this work now.
1291
01:16:44,039 --> 01:16:45,840
And more and more
because there's recognition
1292
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:47,399
of the value
of Bellingcat's work.
1293
01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:50,399
There's more and more people
being contacted
1294
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:51,960
who are part
of the Bellingcat team saying,
1295
01:16:52,039 --> 01:16:54,529
"Do you want to work
for this organization or that?"
1296
01:16:54,609 --> 01:16:57,039
And they are the best
open-source investigators
1297
01:16:57,119 --> 01:17:00,079
that I know of.
I really want to hire them
1298
01:17:00,159 --> 01:17:02,000
but I can't begrudge them
if they want to go off
1299
01:17:02,079 --> 01:17:05,079
and get a job to pay them a wage
rather than volunteering.
1300
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,279
It's an online community
of people
1301
01:17:08,359 --> 01:17:09,920
that are doing this voluntarily
1302
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,159
that are looking into stuff
1303
01:17:11,239 --> 01:17:13,680
and challenge bigger actors
in this world.
1304
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:15,960
I think this is
a really great thing
1305
01:17:16,039 --> 01:17:17,039
to see developing
1306
01:17:17,119 --> 01:17:19,359
and I hope that this
will stimulate it as well.
1307
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:20,800
-Thank you so much.
-Thank you.
1308
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:22,880
[crowd applause]
1309
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:25,609
It would suck certainly
if Christiaan went off
1310
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:27,039
and worked somewhere else.
1311
01:17:27,119 --> 01:17:28,399
But I wouldn't begrudge him
1312
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:31,079
because people have to get paid
for the work they're doing.
1313
01:17:34,199 --> 01:17:37,880
Okay, where do we start?
You've mentioned that company.
1314
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:39,119
Yes, so they've agree
1315
01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:42,439
to give me 80,000 euros
for the first year
1316
01:17:42,529 --> 01:17:44,279
and 80,000 for the second year,
1317
01:17:44,359 --> 01:17:46,920
and that could possibly go up
to a 100,000 in the second year.
1318
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:50,920
In principle, we would be ready
to consider longer contributions
1319
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,000
to Bellingcat.
1320
01:17:52,079 --> 01:17:54,119
For me it's just a matter
of making sure
1321
01:17:54,199 --> 01:17:55,649
the next six months are covered.
1322
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:57,609
We do not have any flexibility
in the funding
1323
01:17:57,680 --> 01:17:58,840
of Bellingcat at the moment.
1324
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:00,479
We're literally at the point
1325
01:18:00,569 --> 01:18:03,159
where my bank account
is dropping to nearly zero.
1326
01:18:12,529 --> 01:18:14,079
[in Dutch]
1327
01:19:49,649 --> 01:19:51,649
[in English]
The two men wanted in the UK
1328
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:53,039
for the Skripal poisoning
1329
01:19:53,119 --> 01:19:56,239
insisted they were civilians
on holiday, visiting Salisbury.
1330
01:19:56,319 --> 01:19:59,960
But today the real identity
of one of the men was revealed
1331
01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:02,960
by the investigations team
at Bellingcat.
1332
01:20:03,039 --> 01:20:05,840
He's not, as he claimed,
Ruslan Boshirov,
1333
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:07,319
a fitness instructor
1334
01:20:07,399 --> 01:20:09,359
but colonel Anatoliy Chepiga,
1335
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:10,439
a highly-decorated
1336
01:20:10,529 --> 01:20:12,649
Russian Military Intelligence
officer.
1337
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:14,119
The Skripal case
that came up recently
1338
01:20:14,199 --> 01:20:16,199
was actually not something
we really focused on
1339
01:20:16,279 --> 01:20:18,000
until the UK released images
1340
01:20:18,079 --> 01:20:19,649
of the suspects along
with pseudonyms.
1341
01:20:20,239 --> 01:20:22,199
We were in a position
to get details
1342
01:20:22,279 --> 01:20:24,960
of the ID documents from Russia
1343
01:20:25,039 --> 01:20:26,079
for those two people.
1344
01:20:26,159 --> 01:20:27,920
And we discovered
some interesting things,
1345
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:31,439
for examples, their ID numbers
were nearly sequential.
1346
01:20:31,529 --> 01:20:33,239
There's only a couple of spaces
between them.
1347
01:20:33,319 --> 01:20:35,439
And we discovered
another GRU officer
1348
01:20:35,529 --> 01:20:37,079
who'd been arrested
in Montenegro
1349
01:20:37,159 --> 01:20:38,840
also had a very similar number
1350
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,079
that was only
about 25 digits different.
1351
01:20:41,159 --> 01:20:43,399
So we discovered
this little batch of ID numbers
1352
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:45,680
that seemed to be linked
to GRU agents.
1353
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:47,159
Once we published that,
1354
01:20:47,239 --> 01:20:49,800
we had a big reaction
from the media
1355
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:51,159
lots of coverage in Russia,
1356
01:20:51,239 --> 01:20:52,720
a reaction
from the Russian government
1357
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,960
-Are these people you?
-Yeah, that's us.
1358
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:58,239
What were you doing there?
1359
01:20:59,239 --> 01:21:01,529
There's the famous
Salisbury Cathedral.
1360
01:21:01,609 --> 01:21:04,239
Famous not only in Europe,
but in the whole world.
1361
01:21:04,319 --> 01:21:07,609
It's famous
for its 123-metre spire.
1362
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:08,840
They claimed
there they got there
1363
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:10,760
and the snow was so deep,
they had to turn back.
1364
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,800
But it's not a long walk
to Salisbury Cathedral,
1365
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:15,439
you can see it
from the train station.
1366
01:21:15,529 --> 01:21:17,439
And when the police released
their photographs,
1367
01:21:17,529 --> 01:21:19,920
you had them walking
through Gatwick Airport.
1368
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:21,439
People claimed
that they were going
1369
01:21:21,529 --> 01:21:22,880
through the same gate
at the same time
1370
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:24,239
that can reveal...
1371
01:21:24,319 --> 01:21:26,000
But again, that just turned out
to be nonsense.
1372
01:21:26,079 --> 01:21:28,279
We found images of those gates
1373
01:21:28,359 --> 01:21:30,279
at Gatwick Airport
on Google Streetview
1374
01:21:30,359 --> 01:21:31,359
and it could prove
1375
01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:32,760
that they were walking
side by side.
1376
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:34,880
Not in the same place
at the same time,
1377
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:36,239
as people tried to claim
they were.
1378
01:21:36,319 --> 01:21:38,760
But yeah, the reaction has been
absolutely massive.
1379
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:40,720
We've yet again revealed
the identity
1380
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:42,569
of another GRU officer.
1381
01:21:43,119 --> 01:21:44,399
The first thing to say
is presumably
1382
01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:45,920
they messed up very badly here.
1383
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:48,569
Somebody that is so senior
in Russian Intelligence,
1384
01:21:48,649 --> 01:21:51,569
that was a very bad day for him,
wasn't it?
1385
01:21:51,649 --> 01:21:54,529
Today has probably been
the worst day of his life.
1386
01:21:54,609 --> 01:21:56,529
But, tell me about his record.
1387
01:21:56,609 --> 01:21:58,840
You've been through them,
you know what he did.
1388
01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:00,569
You know how senior he is.
1389
01:22:00,649 --> 01:22:02,720
We've identified
that he's been decorated
1390
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:04,880
to the highest degree in Russia.
1391
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:06,359
He's got the award of
1392
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,000
"Hero of the
Russian Federation".
1393
01:22:08,079 --> 01:22:09,159
So this is somebody
1394
01:22:09,239 --> 01:22:12,800
who did something outstanding
in the eyes of Putin.
1395
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:15,800
And that somebody was sent
on a mission
1396
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:17,840
to poison an ex-colleague.
1397
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:23,569
[in Russian]
1398
01:22:44,649 --> 01:22:46,649
[calm music]
1399
01:22:58,569 --> 01:23:02,159
[in German]
1400
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:34,119
-[doorbell dings]
-[mumbles]
1401
01:23:41,319 --> 01:23:43,199
-[in English] Come on in.
-[all laugh]
1402
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:45,119
Come in.
1403
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:47,920
Hello, Hadi.
1404
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:49,359
Good to see you.
1405
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:50,609
[mumbles]
1406
01:23:52,359 --> 01:23:53,359
It's a weird thing
1407
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:54,920
because when you're
working online with people
1408
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:56,000
you don't get too much
1409
01:23:56,079 --> 01:23:58,199
of their real personality
coming through.
1410
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:00,680
So it's kind of strange
especially
1411
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,399
'cause I've worked
with these people for so long
1412
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:04,880
in a purely online space.
1413
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:06,279
And then you meet them
in person.
1414
01:24:06,359 --> 01:24:07,920
So it's kind of a weird...
1415
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:09,079
It's like you really know them,
1416
01:24:09,159 --> 01:24:10,920
but at the same time
you don't really know them.
1417
01:24:13,609 --> 01:24:16,880
One great reason why people join
big organization
1418
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:18,880
like the BBC
or The New York Times
1419
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:21,800
is the institution has lawyers,
1420
01:24:22,479 --> 01:24:24,039
it has professionals
1421
01:24:24,529 --> 01:24:26,880
who can help you if you get sued
1422
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:30,800
or who know
what are the safe practice is.
1423
01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:33,920
And people operating
on their own
1424
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,840
don't have that,
that's one of the risk.
1425
01:24:36,920 --> 01:24:39,159
But you could also say
from another point of view
1426
01:24:39,239 --> 01:24:41,119
that that's exactly
why they're heroes,
1427
01:24:41,609 --> 01:24:43,399
that's exactly
why they're inspiring
1428
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:46,479
because they do this work
'cause they believe in it
1429
01:24:46,569 --> 01:24:48,720
and they don't have
a lot of protection
1430
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:50,319
but they do it
because it's important.
1431
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:53,079
We used to live
in an environment
1432
01:24:53,159 --> 01:24:54,319
where we have gatekeepers.
1433
01:24:54,399 --> 01:24:56,609
So a certain time of night
everybody would sit down
1434
01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:58,039
and watch television
at the same time.
1435
01:24:58,119 --> 01:25:01,439
we had number of newspapers
or radio outlets
1436
01:25:01,529 --> 01:25:03,119
and there were
professional journalist
1437
01:25:03,199 --> 01:25:05,359
giving you information
that have been fact check
1438
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:06,840
and sourced professionally.
1439
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:09,159
So when into that landscape
1440
01:25:09,239 --> 01:25:12,840
you have people flooding it
with misinformation
1441
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:14,399
and lies and falsehood.
1442
01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:16,680
Then what it leads to
is people just saying,
1443
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,000
"I'm just gonna step away
from the process."
1444
01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:21,199
So your gonna have people
that are not voting,
1445
01:25:21,279 --> 01:25:22,960
your gonna have people
turning away
1446
01:25:23,039 --> 01:25:24,159
from the mainstream media
1447
01:25:24,239 --> 01:25:25,239
and you gonna have people
1448
01:25:25,319 --> 01:25:27,529
basically connecting
with one another
1449
01:25:27,609 --> 01:25:29,840
with other people
who feel the same way as them.
1450
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:31,649
So, we are not quite there yet,
1451
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:33,609
but it's not gonna take
very long for us
1452
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:34,960
to be in that situation.
1453
01:25:35,039 --> 01:25:37,119
I bought Bellingcat T-shirt
for everyone.
1454
01:25:37,199 --> 01:25:38,399
Yey!
1455
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:39,800
It's definitely
not because my wife
1456
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:40,920
told me to get rid of them.
1457
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:42,239
[all laugh]
1458
01:25:42,319 --> 01:25:46,000
There are no solution,
there's no fix,
1459
01:25:46,079 --> 01:25:50,439
there's just endless
struggle ahead.
1460
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,039
And if you believe in democracy
if you think it's important
1461
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:58,720
that political
democracy survives
1462
01:25:59,649 --> 01:26:01,880
that we have consent
of the governed,
1463
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:03,960
that we have open societies,
1464
01:26:04,039 --> 01:26:06,279
that we have civil liberties
for all.
1465
01:26:06,359 --> 01:26:08,680
If you think those things
are important
1466
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:09,960
we are entering to a period
1467
01:26:10,039 --> 01:26:11,680
where they have
to be fought for.
1468
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:14,399
[all laugh]
1469
01:26:15,079 --> 01:26:16,720
Okay, so, um, first of all,
1470
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:17,800
a toast to Timmi,
1471
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:19,199
it's great to see
that he is better
1472
01:26:19,279 --> 01:26:20,840
and he is recovering,
1473
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:22,649
so, uh, a toast to Timmi.
1474
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:24,359
-Toast to Timmi.
-Yeah.
1475
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:25,569
Toast.
1476
01:26:26,119 --> 01:26:27,680
-Cheers.
-Cheers.
1477
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:32,399
The investigative
website Bellingcat
1478
01:26:32,479 --> 01:26:36,399
has identify the second suspect
responsible for poisoning
1479
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:38,920
former Russian spy
Sergei Skripal.
1480
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:42,680
Bellingcat says his name is
Alexander Yevgenyevich Mishkin.
1481
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,279
A military doctor with
Russia's Military Intelligence
1482
01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:47,159
agency to the GRU.
1483
01:26:47,239 --> 01:26:50,159
Bellingcat says he was recruited
by GRU
1484
01:26:50,239 --> 01:26:52,279
during his medical studies.
1485
01:27:57,079 --> 01:27:59,079
[closing theme music]
107651
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