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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:33,039 --> 00:00:35,039 [ominous music] 4 00:00:45,039 --> 00:00:47,159 This is a BBC news special. 5 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,520 A Malaysian passenger plane with around 300 people on board 6 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,439 has crashed close to the Ukrainian border with Russia. 7 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,880 There are unconfirmed reports that it was shot down. 8 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:00,200 The Malaysian airliner had been flying normally 9 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,039 without problems and... 10 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:04,879 An American journalist has been beheaded 11 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:06,560 by ISIS terrorists. 12 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,280 A video showing the horrific killing 13 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:11,599 was released on the internet a short while ago, 14 00:01:11,689 --> 00:01:13,959 along with a message to the United States... 15 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,640 Devastation in the rebel-held Sucari neighborhood of Aleppo 16 00:01:18,719 --> 00:01:19,799 on Wednesday. 17 00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:24,079 Activists blame a barrel bombing by government forces. 18 00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:26,560 At least 100 people have been killed 19 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,000 The flight would have been at cruising altitude, 20 00:01:29,079 --> 00:01:32,000 which means it would be at about 32,000 feet. 21 00:01:32,079 --> 00:01:36,599 For someone to mistake that for a hostile aircraft 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,400 between Russia and Ukraine would be difficult. 23 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:41,760 It's difficult to see 24 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,599 how this could just be a mistake. 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,040 This is nonsense. 26 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:48,719 There are no Russian armed forces 27 00:01:48,799 --> 00:01:50,519 anywhere in the east of Ukraine. 28 00:01:50,599 --> 00:01:56,439 A horrific scene in Charlottesville, Virginia. 29 00:01:56,519 --> 00:01:58,640 A white nationalist rally that descended 30 00:01:58,719 --> 00:02:01,159 into deadly violence and chaos. 31 00:02:01,239 --> 00:02:02,519 The image is just coming in. 32 00:02:02,599 --> 00:02:04,560 Unfortunately, the Russian-backed separatists 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:05,640 who control the area 34 00:02:05,719 --> 00:02:07,719 continue to block the investigation. 35 00:02:08,090 --> 00:02:10,120 The separatists are removing evidence 36 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:11,479 from the crash site 37 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,039 all of which begs the question, 38 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,560 what exactly are they trying to hide? 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,560 We have to make sure that the truth is out. 40 00:02:35,719 --> 00:02:37,719 [theme music] 41 00:02:55,159 --> 00:02:57,400 Before any official investigation 42 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:00,240 into the tragedy of flight MH17 is complete 43 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:02,360 the website of one citizen journalist claims 44 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:03,639 to have connected the dots. 45 00:03:04,199 --> 00:03:06,280 Bellingcat is run by Eliot Higgins, 46 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,680 a 36-year-old laid-off office worker. 47 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,080 Among Bellingcat's favorite tools 48 00:03:11,159 --> 00:03:12,719 are YouTube and Google Earth. 49 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,840 Something Higgins used to back his claim 50 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,159 that Russia faked satellite images 51 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,439 to blame the Ukrainian army for the MH17 crash. 52 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,759 When I was younger I was super, super shy. 53 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,479 When I was at University, 54 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,960 I couldn't even leave the house, I was so shy. 55 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,159 Terribly nerdy as it sounds, 56 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,719 I was really into computers and gaming. 57 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:38,159 I was very withdrawn as well, so I got into computers. 58 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,000 It's what that kind of people do. 59 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,400 I used to play these games a lot and I would like join a group. 60 00:03:43,479 --> 00:03:45,759 Inevitably I would end up the leader of the group, 61 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,560 because I would really get into stuff. 62 00:03:48,319 --> 00:03:49,319 I've always been like that. 63 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,159 I have this kind of obsessive tendency 64 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:52,479 where if I like something 65 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,439 I'll really get into it. 66 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,599 Growing up, my interests were very counter culture. 67 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,319 So, I was very interested 68 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,280 in the way US foreign policy affected the world. 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:05,719 Of course we have things like the first 70 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:06,800 and second Iraq war, 71 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:09,319 and you know, all the mess America was making. 72 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,879 When social media became popular in 2007, 2008, 73 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:14,960 we had smartphones 74 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:17,639 and those two technologies combined with apps 75 00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:19,240 that allow you to take photographs 76 00:04:19,319 --> 00:04:21,399 and share it immediately with the entire world. 77 00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:25,759 The fact that you could do that was revolutionary. 78 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,199 -[bell dings] -[indistinct announcement] 79 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,170 This is something I've been working on 80 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:39,279 for a presentation 81 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,480 it's about the white nationalist's violence. 82 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:42,959 -Whose streets? -Our streets. 83 00:04:43,050 --> 00:04:44,680 -Whose streets? -Our streets. 84 00:04:44,759 --> 00:04:46,639 -Whose streets? -Our streets. 85 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:50,240 There was this image taken, showing him attacking that guy. 86 00:04:50,319 --> 00:04:52,170 So we wanted to know who this could be. 87 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:53,839 We looked for all the photographs and videos 88 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,959 of these white nationalists and we found this guy. 89 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,079 Now, he has certain similarities, 90 00:04:59,170 --> 00:05:01,279 for example he has a very similar shirt on. 91 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,120 So, we looked for more images and photographs 92 00:05:03,199 --> 00:05:04,839 and we found this photograph 93 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,319 which appeared to be the same person. 94 00:05:06,399 --> 00:05:07,759 So we compare him 95 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:09,839 and the one thing that stands out 96 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,680 is the pattern of moles on his neck 97 00:05:12,759 --> 00:05:14,050 is exactly the same. 98 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:15,120 What we started doing is looking 99 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:16,680 at the people who stood around him. 100 00:05:17,439 --> 00:05:18,439 Because what happens 101 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:20,920 is some of these people turn up in tweets 102 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,399 by this account "Yes, You're Racist," 103 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,519 where they actually name the individuals in question. 104 00:05:25,610 --> 00:05:27,800 They show they have social media accounts. 105 00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:30,240 What we're able to do is go to these social media accounts 106 00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:32,720 and look through the people they follow. 107 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,639 And we come across this guy here. 108 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,120 If we go to his page, 109 00:05:37,199 --> 00:05:39,439 we can look at the photographs he's got 110 00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:41,920 and again you can start seeing matches. 111 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:44,759 So you can see the moles on his neck 112 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,480 match the pattern of moles there. 113 00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:51,199 So, you know, he appears to have been committing a crime. 114 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:52,279 So, what we're trying to do 115 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,480 is see if we can ID the people behind these. 116 00:05:55,079 --> 00:05:56,160 And this kind of work 117 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:57,360 is becoming more and more interesting 118 00:05:57,439 --> 00:05:58,920 to law enforcement. 119 00:06:08,639 --> 00:06:10,040 I originally was going to come here 120 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:11,439 and talk to you about a revolution 121 00:06:11,519 --> 00:06:14,279 but with the discussion of the post-truth world, 122 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,560 it feels like a counter revolution now. 123 00:06:16,639 --> 00:06:20,040 And it's been a very peaceful and quiet revolution, 124 00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:23,920 thanks to smartphones, thanks to social media... 125 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,959 and thanks to the vast amount of information 126 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,399 now available online to anyone. 127 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,560 And this revolution has allowed a new field to grow. 128 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:33,839 I like to call this field 129 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,000 "online open source investigation." 130 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,399 We can use it to influence the powerful, 131 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,360 we can use it to challenge the powerful 132 00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:44,000 and we can bring them to accountability as well. 133 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,480 Now, I started Bellingcat 134 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,720 because I wanted to teach people how to do this. 135 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,800 It used to be that the tools of media production 136 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,959 were in the hands of the media. 137 00:06:58,079 --> 00:07:00,639 And with the rise of the internet, 138 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,199 that is no longer true. 139 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:05,360 With vlogging starting in 2000 140 00:07:05,439 --> 00:07:08,120 and social media starting in 2004 141 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:11,720 and YouTube, which I think started in 2005, 142 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,519 now the tools for media production 143 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:19,120 have been given to the people formerly known as the audience. 144 00:07:23,439 --> 00:07:24,439 Historians will look back, 145 00:07:24,519 --> 00:07:26,920 I think, and recognize that this was the time 146 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,879 almost 20 years after the internet emerged 147 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:31,959 where the kind of realities 148 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,759 of our networked environment became true. 149 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:36,079 In human history, 150 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,319 when we've had these moments of significant change 151 00:07:38,399 --> 00:07:39,560 whether it was the printing press, 152 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:42,360 or radio, or television, we've had similar moments of... 153 00:07:42,439 --> 00:07:43,439 [gasps] Oh, my goodness, 154 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:44,680 what is it going to mean? 155 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:47,839 And we're there right now, but we do have to recognize 156 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,920 the seriousness of what this means 157 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,120 because ultimately, 158 00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:54,480 this technology is a reflection of humans. 159 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,279 So, for the last five years we've been terrified 160 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,720 about artificial intelligence and robots. 161 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,000 The horrible truth is, 162 00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:02,920 the thing that might bring us down 163 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,920 is technology that simply reflects 164 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,480 our worst aspects back to each other. 165 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,959 [keyboard clanking] 166 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,759 I'd just been looking at Twitter 167 00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:17,759 and I noticed there was a new ISIS video. 168 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:20,600 And someone said there's James Foley on it. 169 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,560 This is James Wright Foley, 170 00:08:23,839 --> 00:08:26,480 an American citizen of your country. 171 00:08:28,759 --> 00:08:30,639 I just felt like I needed to do something 172 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:31,839 so that's why I thought I'd see 173 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,240 if I could find out where this had taken place. 174 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:37,090 The first thing I noticed 175 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,639 was that it was in this dry and arid area 176 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,639 but in the distance you can actually see 177 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,159 a very green and fertile area. 178 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,960 And if you're familiar with the terrain around Raqqa 179 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,840 which is obviously the stronghold at this point 180 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:52,919 you could see this valley with this river running through it, 181 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000 and it's very green 182 00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:56,639 but the foothills around it were very dry and arid. 183 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,360 These are obviously very dusty, hilly areas 184 00:08:58,450 --> 00:08:59,919 but you can see, in the distance, 185 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,559 all these individual trees. 186 00:09:02,090 --> 00:09:03,799 So when you look at Raqqa, 187 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:05,039 this is exactly what you're seeing. 188 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,639 You're seeing this green valley with these hills. 189 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,210 I basically just went through and followed this line, 190 00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:12,279 looking for similar terrain. 191 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,720 You can see here it's very, very rough indeed. 192 00:09:14,799 --> 00:09:16,879 So I thought it was a likely location. 193 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,039 Then I started looking 194 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:19,559 at all these little background details, 195 00:09:19,639 --> 00:09:21,039 like these trees and the road 196 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:22,799 and comparing them to imagery 197 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:24,840 that was visible from that line of sight. 198 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:28,159 Once I had a possible location, 199 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,090 I published it to kind of see if I could generate a discussion 200 00:09:31,159 --> 00:09:32,840 around where this could have happened. 201 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:37,450 Then, several months later, that's why I started Bellingcat. 202 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,720 Bellingcat doesn't have institutional support. 203 00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:50,879 They don't have a big building at The Hague or Brussels, 204 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,210 where they do their work. 205 00:09:52,279 --> 00:09:56,450 They actually publish very detailed analyses 206 00:09:56,519 --> 00:09:59,159 and many of them are volunteers living at home. 207 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,679 They don't have security and so what they do 208 00:10:02,759 --> 00:10:07,210 is really risk a great deal to find out the truth 209 00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:09,559 in very complex situations 210 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:11,960 that include major global players. 211 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,159 [explosion] 212 00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:29,759 [in Russian] 213 00:11:34,919 --> 00:11:36,919 [truck engine rumbles] 214 00:11:43,919 --> 00:11:46,120 [in English] How I got involved in Bellingcat was that 215 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,440 I had been following the Ukraine conflict 216 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:49,960 pretty much since the beginning. 217 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,720 And then, when MH17 was shot down, I got curious. 218 00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:56,960 Because passenger planes fly very high. 219 00:11:57,039 --> 00:12:00,559 They fly, or cruise, at altitudes of 10 kilometers. 220 00:12:00,639 --> 00:12:04,000 I hadn't seen weapon systems that could reach that high. 221 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,399 So previously what I'd seen 222 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,519 is these shoulder-launched missiles... 223 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,159 that could only reach a couple of kilometers, 224 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,759 but nothing that could down a passenger airliner. 225 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,440 There were these pictures of all the parts of the aircraft 226 00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:17,759 that were starting to appear on social media. 227 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,840 What I wanted to understand was, 228 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:25,240 could we actually see any damage on the aircraft parts itself 229 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,399 that could indicate what brought it down? 230 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,840 That's how I got talking to, then, other people. 231 00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:34,639 There was Eliot, there was Aric, then Timmi came along as well. 232 00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:36,919 We sort of naturally started, 233 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,559 I suppose, talking to each other. 234 00:12:38,639 --> 00:12:40,600 Then at some point Eliot 235 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,039 reached out to all of us and said, 236 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,799 "Hey, do you want to actually do something 237 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:45,399 in a more coordinated fashion?" 238 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,559 That's how we sort of ended up as the core Bellingcat team. 239 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,080 I was at work here in Charlotte at a bank. 240 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:03,519 My job was to monitor events that were going on 241 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:04,919 and try to see if there's any danger 242 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,480 or risk to the bankers, employees 243 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:07,759 or travelers or whatever. 244 00:13:08,399 --> 00:13:10,360 I focused a lot on Ukraine and Russia at work 245 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,759 because I studied Russian literature 246 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,679 in graduate school. 247 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:15,240 And I did a lot of moderating things to do 248 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,320 with Russia and Ukraine. 249 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,480 And I remember seeing some news 250 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,519 that a plane was shot down over Ukraine. 251 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,000 At first I thought, oh, it's no big deal, 252 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:25,799 another plane has been shot down. 253 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,559 But soon, obviously, as everyone knows, 254 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:31,639 we realized it wasn't a Ukrainian plane. 255 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,279 Then I, like everybody else, was wondering what was going on. 256 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:38,279 And I was looking at the online evidence 257 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,720 around the shoot down. 258 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:42,159 There were a handful of photographs and videos 259 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,440 that emerged on the day of the shoot down 260 00:13:44,519 --> 00:13:46,360 and then more that would come later on. 261 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,519 When you think about like the Lockerbie bombing, 262 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,279 or the US shoot down of the Iranian plane 263 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,879 you know, all these other disasters, 264 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,559 there's really not much to go on 265 00:13:55,639 --> 00:13:58,120 except for what you see on the news. 266 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,320 But with MH17 it was so different 267 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:03,039 because there was this huge digital trail. 268 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,720 I remember I was watching social media 269 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:08,440 and I was watching a few different feeds of news. 270 00:14:08,519 --> 00:14:10,600 I remember I had Rossiya 1, 271 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,720 which is the main Russian state news channel, 272 00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:14,039 and LifeNews. 273 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,759 The LifeNews channel, 274 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,559 I remember, the stream specifically was horrific. 275 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:20,879 They were showing the bodies, it was awful. 276 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:22,639 They showed people riffling through. 277 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,559 It was just a horrible, horrible scene. 278 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:27,120 And, of course you want to know who did this 279 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,240 why did it happen and how can you bring some relief 280 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:31,919 and, you know, justice to it? 281 00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:36,080 We know the trajectory. We know where it came from. 282 00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:39,080 We know the timing and it was exactly at the time 283 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:41,879 that this aircraft disappeared from the radar. 284 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,000 We also know from voice identification 285 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,720 that the separatists were bragging 286 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:48,480 about shooting it down afterwards. 287 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:51,840 So there's a stacking up of evidence here 288 00:14:51,919 --> 00:14:53,480 What I really wanted to first understand. 289 00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:54,799 What was it shot down with? 290 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:57,240 Because that then would lead to the "who did it". 291 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,759 A couple of weeks before MH17 was shot down, 292 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,039 there was a report on Voice of Russia 293 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,440 that the rebels in east Ukraine 294 00:15:06,519 --> 00:15:09,840 had taken over this Buk missile base in Donetsk. 295 00:15:09,919 --> 00:15:13,960 Ans when I first thought that, okay, it's conceivable 296 00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:16,279 since Ukraine does also have Buks 297 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:18,519 and the rebels, if they had access to the Buks, 298 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,440 they could have access to people as well 299 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:23,000 who could operate those systems. 300 00:15:23,559 --> 00:15:25,159 But it was only then, 301 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,440 after a little while of first learning 302 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:31,240 that the same missile launcher 303 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,679 had been actually seen in Russia. 304 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,159 That's really when things started clicking together 305 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,440 and the Russian role started becoming apparent. 306 00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:41,519 [light music] 307 00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:50,960 [in German] 308 00:17:24,410 --> 00:17:26,279 [in English] The way citizen journalism investigations 309 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,890 are trusted is different than professional journalism. 310 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,480 In professional journalism, 311 00:17:31,559 --> 00:17:35,720 you have the reputation of the BBC behind you, right? 312 00:17:35,799 --> 00:17:41,519 Uh, and the standards of an institution 313 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:44,799 are the basis for trust. 314 00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:47,920 In citizen journalism it works differently. 315 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,920 Trust is generated not by the brand name 316 00:17:53,599 --> 00:17:55,799 or the glory of the institution. 317 00:17:56,650 --> 00:17:58,559 It's generated through transparency. 318 00:17:59,650 --> 00:18:03,890 And so, in citizen journalism investigations 319 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,170 what the journalist says is not, "Trust me, I'm with the BBC." 320 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,890 It's, "Don't believe me? Here's the evidence." 321 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,170 [explosion] 322 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:25,079 Syria's deadly civil war is now even more dangerous 323 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:28,839 with both the US and Russia launching air strikes, 324 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,480 but supporting different sides. 325 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,279 The core of what I've been doing with Bellingcat, 326 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:36,920 is human rights activism. 327 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,240 With some of my colleagues, we started a Facebook group 328 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:42,650 called the Syrian Uprising Information Centre. 329 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,410 In the beginning, 2011, 330 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,839 we were just locating were the peaceful protests 331 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,170 were coming from. 332 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,359 But that turned into pinpointing human rights violations 333 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,720 and that work led, eventually, 334 00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:59,119 working on doing open source analysis with Bellingcat. 335 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,440 So, if we go from the beginning, 336 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,559 you see it's like the first moment of the attack. 337 00:19:09,650 --> 00:19:13,440 You see four rockets going into the market. 338 00:19:13,519 --> 00:19:17,039 We are trying to see if it is a fake video. 339 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:18,720 Maybe from a different country. 340 00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:22,119 Maybe in Syria, but in a different time. 341 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,359 We have seen this has happened a lot. 342 00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:31,759 [in English] If you remember the director 343 00:19:31,839 --> 00:19:34,759 who filmed a boy that has been killed. 344 00:19:35,839 --> 00:19:37,960 It was just a film that they were doing, 345 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:40,119 in a different country, even. 346 00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:43,559 But it got a lot of traction when people used it as, 347 00:19:43,650 --> 00:19:46,200 "Look at what's happening in Syria." Right? 348 00:19:46,279 --> 00:19:48,680 But actually it wasn't happening in Syria. 349 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:52,799 So we really need to make sure 350 00:19:52,890 --> 00:19:56,000 that whatever we're looking at, it's clearly verified. 351 00:19:56,079 --> 00:19:58,119 Uh, it's not just propaganda. 352 00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:02,079 As human beings we are very susceptible to information 353 00:20:02,170 --> 00:20:04,279 that reinforces our world views. 354 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:05,440 We like to think that people 355 00:20:05,519 --> 00:20:07,359 have a rational relationship to information. 356 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:08,440 We do not. 357 00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:10,240 We have an emotional relationship to information. 358 00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:13,960 So when we see overt lies or falsehoods 359 00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:15,359 or manipulated video 360 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,890 it's very easy as academics or researchers 361 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:18,960 or journalists to say, 362 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:20,410 "Why is this working?" 363 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,799 How can we see foreign governments 364 00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:25,000 put out false information and get away with it? 365 00:20:25,079 --> 00:20:29,720 Because they are successful because humans don't want to do 366 00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:31,200 the necessary checks. 367 00:20:31,279 --> 00:20:32,759 Because if you receive information 368 00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:34,839 that reinforces your world view... 369 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,519 you've got no interest to check it. 370 00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:41,119 [computer beeps] 371 00:20:58,319 --> 00:20:59,920 [explosion] 372 00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:05,799 So, you can see there's four bombs falling 373 00:21:05,890 --> 00:21:07,599 from the sky and then impacting. 374 00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:10,480 Three of them in pretty much the same place 375 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:12,890 and then the fourth hits a little bit further out. 376 00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:16,359 So there we see the bigger impacts here 377 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,680 and then there's one further down here. 378 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,720 It's hard to say what exactly it is 379 00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:24,839 but I wouldn't exclude either the Syrians 380 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,480 or the Russians from this one. 381 00:21:27,079 --> 00:21:29,279 But in addition to this, it would be really good to see 382 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,920 the actual remnants of the bombs themselves. 383 00:21:32,519 --> 00:21:34,559 Because that then gives you more data 384 00:21:34,650 --> 00:21:36,720 about what exactly the bombs were 385 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:40,000 and then that can tell you who possibly did the strike. 386 00:21:41,650 --> 00:21:44,200 Veli-Pekka was part of the Finnish military. 387 00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:45,359 Because they are more focused 388 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,079 toward Russia than other nations are, 389 00:21:47,170 --> 00:21:48,890 he has a better understanding of military doctrine, 390 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:49,960 I suppose you could say. 391 00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:51,759 He has a good analytical eye. 392 00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:54,480 He picks up the ideas about open source investigation 393 00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:57,480 and verification and geolocation very, very quickly. 394 00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:59,519 He had this persistence and obsessiveness 395 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:01,400 that is kind of needed in an investigator 396 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,720 and the stability that you also need. 397 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:08,839 [computer beeps] 398 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,839 The work that Hadi and Bellingcat 399 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,160 have been doing, is critical. 400 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,839 They're grabbing, obviously, large quantities of information 401 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,079 much of which can disappear quite quickly from the internet 402 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,039 and preserving it, so that we have it 403 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,680 for future accountability mechanisms. 404 00:22:31,079 --> 00:22:32,279 One of the things that Hadi 405 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:33,559 and the Syrian archive have been doing 406 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,279 and we've been really trying to support them in that process 407 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,160 is figuring out how do you code, 408 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,960 label and tag all of these videos 409 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:44,359 so that if, for example, a legal investigator later says, 410 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,960 "We want to investigate this particular crime, 411 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:48,920 on a particular date and a particular place" 412 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,599 they can pull up that information quickly, 413 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,440 they can explain how they got it 414 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:55,559 so it's transparent for a court of law 415 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,440 and can then actually send it on 416 00:22:57,519 --> 00:22:59,680 to the investigators in a way that makes sense. 417 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,119 Hadi and I have been working a lot together on ideas 418 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,279 about how open source information 419 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:09,920 can be archived and actually be used 420 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,960 and stored in a useful way. 421 00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:13,759 Hadi, you know, he's lived this. 422 00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:14,839 This is his home, 423 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,319 these are his friends and family. 424 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,519 He is part of that community of Syrians 425 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:20,640 who are living abroad, working on this. 426 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,680 So, he really cares about these issues 427 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:23,920 and cares about doing it right 428 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,039 especially when it comes to the work 429 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,680 we're doing on justice and accountability. 430 00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:29,640 [church bell dings] 431 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,000 Timmi is helping to understand better 432 00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:50,279 what happened in the impact sites. 433 00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:53,680 So what I'm asking Timmi is if he can create 434 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:57,559 a 3D structure of this location 435 00:23:58,039 --> 00:23:59,880 so then we can go in detail 436 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,880 and see what happened in each building. 437 00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:12,039 [in German] 438 00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:48,359 [chuckles] 439 00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:52,559 [indistinct chatter] 440 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,720 [in English] I've got an update from Timmi and Hadi 441 00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:59,160 about the location of the bombing. 442 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,279 The big challenge for journalists is just, 443 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,400 if you think about the work that Bellingcat is doing 444 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,920 the amount of time that it takes to go through this. 445 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,680 So we have people on their free time in the evenings. 446 00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:13,279 You know, they're spending hours and hours 447 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,400 going through this. 448 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,000 Uh, I see pressure 449 00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:18,319 with many traditional journalist outfits 450 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,480 is that they're getting so tight on resources 451 00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:23,640 and time these days that it's hard for them 452 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,680 to actually spend enough time to go through all of this 453 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:29,640 and analyze it in the way that the volunteer groups can. 454 00:26:31,079 --> 00:26:32,759 In the case of Syria itself, 455 00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:36,480 there's more hours of the conflict online 456 00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:38,599 than hours of the conflict itself. 457 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,480 It's the most documented conflict in history. 458 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:46,519 I don't see big news agencies doing any work like this. 459 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,519 This is the market one month before the attack. 460 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,799 There are more than 60 people who were killed. 461 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,440 It's just a market. 462 00:26:58,519 --> 00:27:00,359 I mean, there is no military airbase. 463 00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:02,960 It's not near the frontline. 464 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:05,079 It was attacked by an air strike. 465 00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:09,440 Why would you attack civilians? I mean, what is the reason? 466 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,960 [engine rumbles] 467 00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:23,599 The delegations stating unfounded allegations 468 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,680 against my country 469 00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:27,559 are depending on amateur bloggers and videos. 470 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,079 Among one of them is a very famous British citizen 471 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,599 called Eliot Higgins 472 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,839 whose online inputs about the situation in Syria 473 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,799 are intensively yet mistakenly adopted 474 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,799 by many media outlets as well as governments. 475 00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:44,880 According to Wikipedia, and I quote. 476 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,400 Eliot Higgins, in 2012, "when he began bloggin 477 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,440 the Syrian situation" 478 00:27:50,519 --> 00:27:53,960 was an unemployed finance and admin worker 479 00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,920 who spent his days taking care of his child at home. 480 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,200 Higgins' analysis of Syrian weapons 481 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:01,400 began as a hobby, 482 00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:04,319 out of his home in his spare time. 483 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,599 Higgins has no background or training in weapons 484 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,799 and is entirely self-taught. 485 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,720 He said, "Before the Arab spring, 486 00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:16,559 I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. 487 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,279 I had no knowledge beyond what I had learned 488 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,480 from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." 489 00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:26,319 Never been to Syria, doesn't speak a word of Arabic 490 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,119 and he conducts his profound research 491 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,920 from the comfort of his armchair in his home. 492 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:40,759 [water sloshes] 493 00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:48,680 Even at school I was really, crushingly shy. 494 00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:50,880 So how did I get over that? 495 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,519 It's being passionate about something 496 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:54,160 and then doing stuff that is outside 497 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,240 of your comfort zone. 498 00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:56,880 And partly because of my wife telling me to stop 499 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,319 being shy about stuff all the time, 500 00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,400 and that helps. 501 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,039 [baby mumbles] 502 00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:02,960 She came to England to study English 503 00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:04,039 and be an au pair, 504 00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:05,839 then we met and we just started dating. 505 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,680 Uh, also, going to Turkey to propose 506 00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:09,160 to someone was quite a, 507 00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:12,039 for me an amazingly bizarrely brave 508 00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:13,559 and insane thing to do. 509 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,440 So that's when I kind of started to change 510 00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:18,519 and then this came along 511 00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:19,759 and then I had to start doing stuff 512 00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:21,559 that really was outside my comfort zone. 513 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,039 [indistinct chatter] 514 00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:26,000 When I first started coming up with the idea 515 00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:28,480 for the website at the start of 2014 516 00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:30,599 I was trying to think of a clever name. 517 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,559 And I basically failed. 518 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:33,799 I was saying, 519 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,839 "I'll call it the Open Source or Investigation Online", 520 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,400 crap names. 521 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,400 And they were all taken anyway. 522 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,599 Either way, thank God they were, 523 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,039 because I probably would've picked one. 524 00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:45,640 So, I was stuck and I contacted my friend. 525 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,480 He's a playwright, so I thought. He knows words, so I'll ask him. 526 00:29:49,559 --> 00:29:52,720 Quite quickly he said. "What about Belling the Cat?" 527 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880 A mouse town was recently visited by a cat. 528 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,400 Since then, all of the mice haven't had any peace. 529 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,559 The mice decided to be rid of this cat. 530 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,599 -No cat. -No cat. 531 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:08,599 I have an idea. 532 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,160 How about putting a bell around the cat's neck? 533 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,559 How about you bell the cat as you seem to be 534 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,680 the one with the great idea? 535 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:19,799 [mumbles] Me? No, no, no, I can't. 536 00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:23,599 Even the greatest ideas are nothing 537 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,119 when they can't be done. 538 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:27,880 So, what we're doing at Bellingcat 539 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,480 is we're teaching people how to bell the cat. 540 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,480 That's all you gonna eat. 541 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:35,920 It's your favorite, isn't it Ella? 542 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,119 Cashew nuts? 543 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,640 Phase 0, in a way, was how the internet used to be 544 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,119 before social media and smartphones. 545 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:43,279 To share a photograph with someone 546 00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:44,400 you had to upload it up to a site 547 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,240 and put a link in a forum. 548 00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:49,039 If someone read that forum they would see the photograph. 549 00:30:50,119 --> 00:30:52,000 That's kind of when I started getting involved, 550 00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:53,799 when I was doing my blogging. 551 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,920 And that was the period up until 2014 552 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,640 where NGO's and journalists were becoming interested. 553 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,839 In part because of what I was doing. 554 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,799 Now what's happening is policy makers 555 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,079 are getting a lot more interested in this. 556 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,440 Governments, intelligence, military. 557 00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:10,599 Because we're going out there in this period 558 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,200 and challenging the Russian government directly 559 00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:15,160 with evidence that they can't refute. 560 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,079 We're making them look bad, we're challenging 561 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,519 the narrative they're trying to push. 562 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,559 That moved towards the fourth period, in 2017 563 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,519 where we're now thinking about this 564 00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:26,960 for justice and accountability. 565 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,640 So, Phase 5 is when we'll actually be 566 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,079 in court with this kind of thing. 567 00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:51,079 So, this is the photograph of the Buk that shot down MH17. 568 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,720 This is taken about four hours before the shootdown. 569 00:31:54,559 --> 00:31:55,559 When we look at this, 570 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,200 we can see a few things that are pretty obvious. 571 00:31:57,279 --> 00:31:59,319 Like, we have the Buk right here, 572 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,160 in the back of a white Volvo 573 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,039 with a red low-loader trailer behind it. 574 00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:07,880 Also, we have, here, the Jeep. 575 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:13,880 If we look at other videos of this convoy, 576 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,119 we can find the same vehicles in each one. 577 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,759 So for example, right here, 578 00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:20,960 this is the white Volvo carrying the Buk. 579 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:26,839 And here you see the same Jeep that we saw in the photograph 580 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,799 along with a video taken two days prior 581 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,160 accompanying a number of Russian 582 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,359 and separatists' tanks 583 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,200 through eastern Ukraine to Donetsk. 584 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,720 This video was taken 585 00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:38,519 on the day of the MH17 shoot down, 586 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:40,440 five hours before the shoot down. 587 00:32:40,519 --> 00:32:43,039 You can see one of the most important details. 588 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,680 Is on this Buk we can see 589 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:48,759 one, two, three, four missiles on the Buk 590 00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:50,119 that shot down MH17. 591 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,680 Five hours before the shoot down. 592 00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:54,599 If we look at a video filmed the next morning 593 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,200 around 5:00 or 6:00 in Luhansk this missile was missing. 594 00:32:58,279 --> 00:32:59,559 There's only three missiles. 595 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,880 We know what happened to that missile. 596 00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:06,400 There are many ways to know exactly 597 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,559 when and where this video was taken. 598 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,400 One reason or one way we know, 599 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:17,960 is that at the end of this video we see fuel prices. 600 00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:19,640 If we look at historical data 601 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,640 of what the fuel prices were on the day 602 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,640 of the MH17 shoot down and compare 603 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,119 they were the exact same prices that we see right here. 604 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,960 So we know exactly when the video was taken. 605 00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:31,319 Also, there is even a satellite image 606 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,519 showing the same vehicle in Makiyivka. 607 00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:36,079 The satellite image is on Google Earth, 608 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,160 anyone can find it. 609 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,920 It was taken at 11:08 a.m. on the day of the shoot down. 610 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,240 With Google Earth if we just go to Makiyivka 611 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,720 this is the gas station, right here. 612 00:33:48,759 --> 00:33:50,440 Where the Buk passed by. 613 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:51,519 If we go further on, 614 00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:53,640 we can go and view like a time machine. 615 00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:55,960 We can go back to the day 616 00:33:56,039 --> 00:33:57,759 of the MH17 shoot down in Google Earth 617 00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:00,160 and look at the satellite image that was taken on that day. 618 00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:08,289 July 17th, 2014. 619 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:12,880 We can look here and see this is the same. 620 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,159 These are the vehicles. 621 00:34:15,769 --> 00:34:19,400 Here. If you zoom in here, very closely 622 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,480 It's hard to see 623 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,329 'cause the resolution isn't very good. 624 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,769 But this video was taken 625 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,559 just about 45 seconds 626 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,000 before this satellite image was taken. 627 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:32,840 It's a cosmic luck, coincidence that this happened. 628 00:34:33,809 --> 00:34:36,199 You see right here, you see the white cabin 629 00:34:36,289 --> 00:34:38,679 of the Volvo truck carrying the Buk. 630 00:34:38,769 --> 00:34:40,480 This is the Buk right here. 631 00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:42,719 The one way we know is the shadow being cast 632 00:34:42,809 --> 00:34:45,639 by the Buk is quite large and it matches exactly 633 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,519 with what a Buk should look like. 634 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,289 If we go through, we can match every single element in here. 635 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,000 Even back at the gas station 636 00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:59,639 the arrangement of the cars at the gas station. 637 00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:04,719 You see here this white car with the door open. 638 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,719 If you go back here, you can see it here as well. 639 00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:11,679 This is the exact same scene that was filmed in this video, 640 00:35:11,769 --> 00:35:13,239 just 45 seconds later. 641 00:35:14,289 --> 00:35:16,000 A website calling itself a resource 642 00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:17,840 for citizen investigative journalists 643 00:35:18,329 --> 00:35:20,840 is to publish its own findings today. 644 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,360 Anastasia Churkina looks at 645 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,329 what this information is based on. 646 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,559 What does it take to shape public opinion 647 00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:29,400 and be a newsmaker over the conflict in Ukraine. 648 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,960 finding answers and solutions 649 00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:33,639 which eluded even the brightest political minds? 650 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,880 Could a cozy couch and a laptop 651 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,809 with internet access to endless social media posts 652 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,329 be enough to paint the full picture? 653 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,719 RT went to find the man behind Bellingcat 654 00:35:43,809 --> 00:35:45,159 for his side of the story. 655 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,719 When a Russia Today 656 00:35:46,809 --> 00:35:49,480 reporter basically tried to hunt me down in my home town 657 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:50,559 even though he knew 658 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,289 I wasn't interested in being interviewed by him 659 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,519 and I wasn't going to meet him. 660 00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:55,920 They turned that into a whole thing. 661 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,960 I had a week where I had like five different interviews, 662 00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:00,159 one TV crew in my house every day. 663 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,360 It was like I won the lottery. 664 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:02,559 Must have been for the neighbors. 665 00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:03,639 And I didn't leave, 666 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,119 so they must've wondered if I murdered someone. 667 00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:07,559 So they came every day, one of them was CNN. 668 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:10,039 And CNN did a whole piece on it, it was a big deal 669 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:12,480 but they described me as a stay-at-home Mr. Mom. 670 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,719 Sometimes we use the phrase "accidental journalists" 671 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,719 for somebody who happens to be there 672 00:36:23,809 --> 00:36:26,039 when the plane goes down and takes the photograph. 673 00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:29,440 But this is different because it's not accidental. 674 00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:30,519 It's intentional. 675 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:33,960 And they are an increasingly important category of the public 676 00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:37,440 and people in professions that touch on this work 677 00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:41,119 should just get used to their existence. 678 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,840 [in Dutch] 679 00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:55,960 [drone whirs] 680 00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:57,679 [beeps] 681 00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:46,039 [drone whirs] 682 00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:49,159 [in English] Christiaan is really brilliant. 683 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,239 I hired him because he has 684 00:37:50,329 --> 00:37:52,119 certain language skills and experience 685 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:53,599 that other people don't. 686 00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:55,960 He's amazingly good at geolocation. 687 00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:58,360 He's like, supernaturally good at it. 688 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,599 If we ever get stuck, he'll find it in five minutes. 689 00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:02,559 It's like, amazing how he does it. 690 00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:05,559 [in Dutch] 691 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,329 [people clamoring] 692 00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:05,119 [in English] I will present in English 693 00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:06,920 because I just know some words. 694 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,679 Um, but welcome everyone here this morning. 695 00:40:10,769 --> 00:40:16,079 And I'd like to talk about a very new way of investigating. 696 00:40:16,159 --> 00:40:18,039 And this is basically investigating 697 00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:20,769 using only digital, 698 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,559 openly available information 699 00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:25,289 and by looking at the visual clues in the photo. 700 00:40:25,809 --> 00:40:28,599 And this has become known as the Bellingcat method. 701 00:40:28,679 --> 00:40:31,329 Here we have the Russian Ministry of Defense. 702 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,119 Their official Twitter account, as you can see, it's verified. 703 00:40:34,599 --> 00:40:38,400 They say, what they show, "Irrefutable evidence 704 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,400 that US actually are covering ISIS combat units." 705 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,840 That they're supporting ISIS. 706 00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:45,239 Let's see where it comes from. 707 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,559 This is a screenshot from a YouTube video, 708 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,559 which is a game simulator, a Gunship simulator. 709 00:40:53,039 --> 00:40:55,679 The Russian Ministry of Defense took a picture, 710 00:40:55,769 --> 00:40:57,199 a screenshot, from a videogame 711 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,719 and they presented it as evidence. 712 00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:02,559 Which is fascinating, 713 00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:07,360 because why would they present a videogame still as evidence? 714 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:10,329 Every country has a foreign policy. 715 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,809 Every country has reasons to hope or believe 716 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,000 that certain outcomes 717 00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:16,440 will happen in different countries. 718 00:41:16,769 --> 00:41:19,519 If you think globally, some of them are subtle, 719 00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:20,719 some of these are quite clear. 720 00:41:20,809 --> 00:41:23,329 For Russia, it's in Russia's interest 721 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,159 to destabilize Western-Europe. 722 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,329 It's in Russia's interest for NATO 723 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,809 to no longer exist. 724 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,199 There are many reasons why they would enjoy 725 00:41:31,289 --> 00:41:33,679 the European Union to not exist in the way that it does. 726 00:41:33,769 --> 00:41:35,199 It's on Russia's border. 727 00:41:35,289 --> 00:41:37,809 So if you want to make these countries 728 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,159 even more unstable 729 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,769 you're flooding these communities 730 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,559 with disinformation. 731 00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:48,079 [indistinct chatter] 732 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,920 [in Dutch] 733 00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:27,119 [in English] "A car bomb kills at least eight 734 00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:29,719 in the Baghdad market. Police and medics. 735 00:42:29,809 --> 00:42:31,329 A car bomb parked in a shopping street 736 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:32,840 of a Shi'ite district of Baghdad 737 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,329 killed at least eight people 738 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,960 and wounded more than 30 others on Sunday 739 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:39,329 police and medical staff said." 740 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,960 [in Dutch] 741 00:42:47,769 --> 00:42:49,920 [in English] "The latest parked car bomb kills ten 742 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,519 in Baghdad neighborhood." 743 00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:52,719 [in Dutch] 744 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,920 [explosion] 745 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,840 [people clamoring] 746 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,599 [in English] I've been a journalist for 50 years 747 00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:41,960 and I have never known the system of journalism 748 00:44:42,039 --> 00:44:43,719 to be in such a perilous state. 749 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,679 There's hardly any money spent on training journalists. 750 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,639 There aren't many journalists with decent jobs these days. 751 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,199 Most of them are working freelance. 752 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,840 It's very difficult to earn a living. 753 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,480 Um, big media organizations 754 00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:58,199 don't spend money on investigative journalism. 755 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,239 They're not sort of properly representing 756 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:01,639 the communities they serve. 757 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,400 The contribution to democracy of good, 758 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,599 reliable, ethical journalism is diminishing by the day. 759 00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:08,880 Every newspaper that closes, 760 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,280 every radio station that goes down 761 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,440 every newsroom in TV that is further constrained 762 00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:16,199 is making journalism weaker. 763 00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:22,119 There's a very small number of journalists globally 764 00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,039 that can do the kind of forensic verification work 765 00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:26,480 on videos and images 766 00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:29,159 which is why it's very effective 767 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,400 to put out something that's false 768 00:45:31,519 --> 00:45:34,239 and it often gets used by mainstream newsrooms 769 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,519 that don't know how to do the checks themselves. 770 00:45:36,599 --> 00:45:40,960 And so, we need independent professional experts 771 00:45:41,039 --> 00:45:42,320 like Bellingcat 772 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,679 who can help audiences navigate this information space. 773 00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:53,480 This is the James Foley execution video being faked. 774 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:55,880 They've tried quite hard to recreate it. 775 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,320 One thing they've done is they've made sure 776 00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:58,639 they've got wind blowing in. 777 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,559 Do you see how his clothes are moving? 778 00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:03,000 They've tried quite hard to make it look really like 779 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:04,920 the actual execution video. 780 00:46:06,079 --> 00:46:08,679 They want you to not trust yourself. 781 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,159 In an era of social media, you want to get clicks. 782 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,480 So, having a headline that says, 783 00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:16,079 "You're not going to believe that this beheading isn't true" 784 00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:17,559 will get you many more clicks. 785 00:46:18,119 --> 00:46:20,039 Anybody who is making this is thinking, 786 00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:22,159 "How can I get many people to look at a video 787 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,199 that might undermine trust in anything they see?" 788 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,280 But we do have to acknowledge that many Western countries 789 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,840 have used similar forms of information warfare 790 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,199 in other countries around the world. 791 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,199 So, what we're seeing right now in this focus on Russia 792 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:36,679 we do have to understand 793 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,079 it gets used by many other countries. 794 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,639 Anybody who is trying to find out 795 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,599 what actually happened 796 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,920 and bring it to the attention of the world, 797 00:46:49,599 --> 00:46:51,760 is doing an important job. 798 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,840 Whether it's their profession or their passion. 799 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,239 And we should appreciate them for what they're doing. 800 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,480 We should also ask questions about 801 00:47:03,559 --> 00:47:05,320 what they're doing so we know whether to trust it. 802 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,320 That's why transparency is the method of trust 803 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:10,960 for this kind of work. 804 00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:12,039 [all cheer] 805 00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:14,159 At the same time that they're doing their job, 806 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,840 bad actors are doing their job to try to undermine trust 807 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,480 in any kind of journalism, any kind of verification. 808 00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:25,159 There are people in the world 809 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,559 who want all forms of verification to just go away 810 00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:30,360 so they don't have to deal with them. 811 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,320 They want to be able to say anything 812 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:33,559 and have it believed. 813 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,599 This sleazy guy right over here, from ABC, 814 00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:39,280 he's a sleaze in my book. 815 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,320 The fake media tried to stop us from going to the White House, 816 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,920 but I'm president and they're not. 817 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,599 Right now they're winning. 818 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,199 So we need people fighting against that. 819 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:57,119 [in Russian] 820 00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:18,320 [in English] We've been targeted 821 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:19,840 by cyber-attacks from Russia. 822 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,320 We've been targeted by, 823 00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:24,599 you know, various criticism in the media. 824 00:48:24,679 --> 00:48:26,360 People have been sent to track me down 825 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,039 in Leicester by Russia Today. 826 00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:29,559 We had the Russian Foreign Ministry 827 00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:31,920 and the Russian MOD criticize our work and attack us 828 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,960 so there are possible dangers in doing this kind of work. 829 00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:37,400 [in German] 830 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:31,760 [in English] Over there behind the fence, 831 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,800 that's the former military base were I served from 1998 to 1999. 832 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,239 We actually had the Buk system there. 833 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,480 This is the Buk-M1, 834 00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:46,039 so the missile launcher part of the system. 835 00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:48,199 This is a similar one to the system 836 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,960 we saw now in Ukraine when MH17 was shot down. 837 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,000 Here we have the missile. 838 00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:55,880 This is where the warhead would be. 839 00:49:56,119 --> 00:49:58,360 So this is actually the part that explodes. 840 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,320 This has layers of metal fragments on it 841 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,760 different sized metal fragments that are actually 842 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:06,519 then the destructive component 843 00:50:06,599 --> 00:50:08,519 that then actually brings down the aircraft. 844 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,159 And so the other parts here, 845 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:12,719 so there's the guidance part there 846 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,760 that actually guides the missile to the target. 847 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:15,880 It can maneuvre, 848 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,039 it can actually move in the air if the target is moving. 849 00:50:19,119 --> 00:50:21,559 When the radar is illuminating the target, 850 00:50:21,639 --> 00:50:22,719 then that seeker head 851 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,960 is actually guided to that radar beam. 852 00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:27,039 [whooshes] 853 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,000 [sighs] 854 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,880 First time I'm sitting inside of a Buk, 855 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,239 so that's exciting. 856 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,760 So which one do I push to fire a missile? 857 00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:45,639 [machine whirrs] 858 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,320 Now put yourself in the situation of that crew 859 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:49,440 that shot down the aircraft. 860 00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:51,119 Based on the information that's out there, 861 00:50:51,199 --> 00:50:55,079 the crew crossed over into Ukraine the previous night. 862 00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:57,480 So, did they get a lot of sleep? 863 00:50:57,559 --> 00:50:59,440 You know, they were travelling to the place. 864 00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:02,159 And sort of that was actually their mental state? 865 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,840 Were they just focused on that they'd get a call 866 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,960 and then they shoot down the first thing 867 00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:09,440 that they pick up on the radar? 868 00:51:09,519 --> 00:51:11,880 -[machine whirrs] -[beeping] 869 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,679 Hard to say. Hard to get inside people's heads. 870 00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:20,079 [whooshes] 871 00:51:23,079 --> 00:51:24,320 We mapped out and found 872 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,440 all the different sightings of this convoy. 873 00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:30,199 It's clear that it left from Kursk to the border. 874 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,199 In Kursk there's only one anti-aircraft brigade, 875 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:34,960 which is the 53rd anti-aircraft brigade 876 00:51:35,039 --> 00:51:36,920 which made it the most logical answer 877 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,039 for which brigade this Buk belonged to. 878 00:51:40,119 --> 00:51:43,840 Then we went through social media profiles for people 879 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,360 who serve in this military unit in Kursk. 880 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,360 Finding profiles of soldiers is super easy. 881 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,840 You just go to a social media site like Contactia, 882 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,199 which is the Russian Facebook. 883 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,119 There's this filter, you can say, 884 00:51:55,199 --> 00:51:56,920 "only people who list their military service 885 00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,039 as this military unit." 886 00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:00,800 You just type in the military unit number 887 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,079 for the 53rd brigade 888 00:52:02,159 --> 00:52:05,039 and say they started service in 2013 or 2014. 889 00:52:05,559 --> 00:52:08,039 Then you have a list of 20, 30, 50 soldiers. 890 00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:09,679 And there you go. 891 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,440 Of those profiles that you go through 892 00:52:12,519 --> 00:52:13,960 a lot of them posted photographs 893 00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:16,519 and videos of being in the convoy 894 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,039 that went from Kursk to the Ukrainian border. 895 00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:21,119 In some of them you can actually see the Buk 896 00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:22,719 that shot down MH17 in the background. 897 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,440 They even posted them standing next to road signs 898 00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:28,239 with the name of the city that they were in. 899 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:29,840 So you can track them pretty easily, 900 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,079 because, you know, they're 19, 20, 21-year-old kids 901 00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:34,000 who are kind of off on a trip, right? 902 00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:35,159 To the border. 903 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:37,920 One of the sources of information 904 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,719 is not just from the soldiers themselves 905 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:40,960 but from the people close to them 906 00:52:41,039 --> 00:52:43,679 who receive information from the soldiers. 907 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,559 Maybe this information is too sensitive, 908 00:52:45,639 --> 00:52:47,320 they feel, to post on their private pages 909 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,880 but, within these trusted communities, 910 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:50,960 among other wives, 911 00:52:51,039 --> 00:52:52,639 mothers and girlfriends of soldiers 912 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:53,840 they'll share this information 913 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,079 because they feel like maybe the world isn't watching. 914 00:52:57,159 --> 00:52:58,559 There's lots of these groups. 915 00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:00,119 It's not just like there's one site 916 00:53:00,199 --> 00:53:01,199 but here's one of them, 917 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,320 it's called Mama Soldata, which is "soldier's mother". 918 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,719 And one of these posts that one of the mothers 919 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,679 of one of the soldiers posted was on June 23rd 2014 920 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,159 which was the day that the convoy left from Kursk 921 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:15,480 on its way to the Ukrainian border. 922 00:53:15,559 --> 00:53:16,639 And she wrote... 923 00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,960 Excuse my awful accent, but it means, 924 00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:31,000 "Today I accidentally found out my son didn't tell me, 925 00:53:31,639 --> 00:53:34,719 that our boys weren't sent to the field, 926 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,519 but instead to the Rostov Oblast" 927 00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:40,960 which is on the border, to the border of Ukraine. 928 00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:47,159 So here, she said even though the sons may not be saying 929 00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:48,840 "we're going to the Ukrainian border" 930 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:50,639 on their Contactia pages, 931 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,960 the mothers, wives and girlfriends, they knew. 932 00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:56,039 They were talking much more openly about this stuff 933 00:53:56,119 --> 00:53:58,800 because it concerned them, obviously, very personally 934 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:00,960 and they didn't have the same stringent 935 00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:03,960 or expected requirements of secrecy, 936 00:54:04,039 --> 00:54:05,199 like you had in the military. 937 00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:07,199 There aren't going to be any consequences 938 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,119 for them leaking information or whatever. 939 00:54:16,639 --> 00:54:19,519 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this press conference 940 00:54:19,599 --> 00:54:23,719 of the Joint Investigation Team, in short, the JIT. 941 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,039 The JIT performs criminal investigation 942 00:54:27,119 --> 00:54:28,599 into the downing of flight MH17 943 00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:30,519 on the 17th of July 2014. 944 00:54:31,039 --> 00:54:34,199 In the JIT, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, 945 00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:35,519 the Netherlands and Ukraine 946 00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:37,039 work closely together. 947 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,840 Today, we will make a number of specific requests 948 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,599 and we'll give you partial insight 949 00:54:42,679 --> 00:54:44,559 into the progress of the investigation. 950 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,000 We urgently appeal to everyone, anywhere in the world. 951 00:54:49,079 --> 00:54:51,800 Who can give the JIT more information 952 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:52,880 about the following, 953 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:54,760 Hello. 954 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,000 [in German] 955 00:55:03,679 --> 00:55:05,920 [in English] So this is a call between two guys, 956 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:07,880 they're obviously speaking Russian. 957 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,880 And one of them is referred to as Nikolay Fyodorovich. 958 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,119 This other guy with the higher voice 959 00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:15,800 we don't know exactly what his role is with MH17, 960 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:17,400 but obviously it's something important 961 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,480 if the JIT, Joint Investigation Team 962 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,639 put out a call for witnesses about who these guys were. 963 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,960 So there's a few different ways we can approach it. 964 00:55:26,039 --> 00:55:29,559 Um, we were planning to work with some Russian partners. 965 00:55:29,639 --> 00:55:32,840 Because there's a lot we can do through digital, 966 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:33,920 open-source research 967 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,480 but a lot of avenues are opened up 968 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:36,960 when we work with Russian partners 969 00:55:37,039 --> 00:55:38,360 who have access to more information. 970 00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:41,559 We're working with a Russian journalist 971 00:55:41,639 --> 00:55:43,960 who works for The Insider. 972 00:55:44,039 --> 00:55:45,920 He, over a period of weeks, 973 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,840 was phoning up the person in question 974 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,920 saying that he would like to do an interview 975 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,800 for a Russian Ministry of Defense newspaper. 976 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,800 It took him a long time to set this interview up, 977 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,360 and the guy gave him 20 minutes in total. 978 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,719 So we've got a really lengthy session of him talking. 979 00:56:03,199 --> 00:56:06,039 Um, and so that's what we've used 980 00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:07,239 for the analyses. 981 00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:18,199 We have this new theory about the identity 982 00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:19,519 of this one Russian commander 983 00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:21,159 who's codenamed Delfin. 984 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,760 And right now there is audio analyses happening of his voice 985 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,119 to try to match him out 986 00:56:26,199 --> 00:56:28,760 to the audio intercepts that JIT released. 987 00:56:29,519 --> 00:56:31,239 [in Russian] 988 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,079 [in English] The audio lab in Vilnius 989 00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:48,159 is the one we chose 990 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,639 because it's got a very good reputation internationally 991 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,800 plus their familiarity with Russian. 992 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,000 [in Russian] 993 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,840 [clears throat] 994 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:26,840 [in English] Hello, this is Eliot Higgins. 995 00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:31,760 Hello, this is Vidmadov speaking from Vilnius. 996 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,000 Oh, hi. How are you doing? I'm good, thanks. 997 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,960 So we finished our examination 998 00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,519 and our experts came to the conclusion 999 00:57:42,599 --> 00:57:45,800 that in one conversation one speaker 1000 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:47,599 highly probably matches. 1001 00:57:47,679 --> 00:57:48,679 Okay. 1002 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,800 So it's highly probable that one of them matches. 1003 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,800 This is the one that is Delfin? 1004 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:55,719 Probably, yes. Probably, yes. 1005 00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:57,880 How sure are you that you have discovered 1006 00:57:57,960 --> 00:57:59,039 the identity of Delfin? 1007 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:01,239 We're very certain at this point. 1008 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,000 We've done open-source analysis 1009 00:58:03,079 --> 00:58:04,679 that pointed us to an individual. 1010 00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:08,159 We managed to require a recording of him speaking. 1011 00:58:08,239 --> 00:58:12,440 We sent it off to two separate forensic analysis laboratories 1012 00:58:12,519 --> 00:58:15,079 who came back and told us it was a match. 1013 00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:18,039 But does this prove that Russia was involved? 1014 00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:19,119 Involved how? 1015 00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:20,840 Well, we can certainly say 1016 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,280 that Russia sent the missile launcher 1017 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:23,599 that shot down MH17. 1018 00:58:23,679 --> 00:58:26,000 And this is part of a wider effort by Russia 1019 00:58:26,079 --> 00:58:29,239 to send military equipment into Ukraine during 2014 1020 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,039 to support separatist forces, 1021 00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:33,199 something Vladimir Putin has denied repeatedly. 1022 00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:37,159 Are you saying this was not a Russian missile? 1023 00:58:38,119 --> 00:58:39,719 This was not a Russian army missile? 1024 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:41,960 [in Russian] 1025 00:58:43,239 --> 00:58:45,559 [in English] It's in people's interests to argue 1026 00:58:45,639 --> 00:58:47,599 that Bellingcat are not trustworthy. 1027 00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:50,599 So because of the work they have done 1028 00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:53,199 they have been undermined by the Russian government, 1029 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:54,719 but also by others. 1030 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:56,800 And so no surprises there. 1031 00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,440 If you're trying to discredit somebody 1032 00:58:59,519 --> 00:59:01,199 who is pushing out information 1033 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:02,719 that you don't want to be pushed out, 1034 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,280 it's in your interest to undermine that as a source. 1035 00:59:12,239 --> 00:59:13,440 [beeps] 1036 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:27,440 I'm really interested 1037 00:59:27,519 --> 00:59:29,480 in how you apply open-source investigation 1038 00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:34,280 to justice and accountability. That's a big, complex topic. 1039 00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,239 We're looking at one of the biggest 1040 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:37,599 and most significant changes 1041 00:59:37,679 --> 00:59:39,159 around justice and accountability 1042 00:59:39,239 --> 00:59:40,719 that may have ever occurred. 1043 00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:43,960 Because you're talking about a massive amount 1044 00:59:44,039 --> 00:59:45,760 of evidence available online. 1045 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,159 Um, and lots of questions about how they use it. 1046 00:59:48,239 --> 00:59:50,920 So, in the summer of 2017, 1047 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,400 the International Criminal Court 1048 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,440 published their first arrest warrant 1049 00:59:54,519 --> 00:59:55,760 that was based on videos uploaded 1050 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:57,760 to Facebook showing executions. 1051 01:00:14,119 --> 01:00:17,920 [in Dutch] 1052 01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:23,920 [in Arabic] 1053 01:00:27,159 --> 01:00:28,960 [in Dutch] 1054 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:37,400 [gunshots] 1055 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:38,519 [in Arabic] 1056 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:47,880 [in Dutch] 1057 01:01:29,519 --> 01:01:30,800 [in English] So one of the reasons 1058 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,280 why the Werfalli case is so important historically 1059 01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,679 in getting legal accountability for these crimes 1060 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,199 is that it was one of the first ever arrest warrants 1061 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,159 issued by the International Criminal Court 1062 01:01:40,239 --> 01:01:42,880 to be based almost solely on information 1063 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:44,559 that was taken from social media. 1064 01:01:44,639 --> 01:01:46,440 They of course had other resources 1065 01:01:46,519 --> 01:01:47,840 that they were relying upon 1066 01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:49,760 but when you read the arrest warrant, 1067 01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,559 you see that much of it is based on information 1068 01:01:51,639 --> 01:01:53,199 from Facebook and Twitter. 1069 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,000 So this is sort of a monumental point in time 1070 01:01:56,079 --> 01:01:57,079 where we're realizing 1071 01:01:57,159 --> 01:01:59,079 that we really need to be grabbing information 1072 01:01:59,159 --> 01:02:01,079 from those platforms and preserving it. 1073 01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:03,760 Because that information is providing the basis 1074 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:05,239 for legal cases in a way 1075 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,440 that quite frankly never has before. 1076 01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,159 [quirky music] 1077 01:02:20,519 --> 01:02:23,159 So what is happening with Werfalli right now? 1078 01:02:23,239 --> 01:02:26,079 He doesn't really seem to care about the warrant. 1079 01:02:26,159 --> 01:02:29,039 I'm just wondering, after the arrest warrant, 1080 01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:34,239 if it doesn't have any direct impact on him 1081 01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:36,519 then many others will be doing 1082 01:02:36,599 --> 01:02:39,639 the same type of random executions. 1083 01:02:41,039 --> 01:02:42,639 I think this is one of the messages 1084 01:02:42,719 --> 01:02:44,360 that they wanted to send also 1085 01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,039 to people like Werfalli. 1086 01:02:46,119 --> 01:02:47,679 He's still walking around, 1087 01:02:48,639 --> 01:02:51,440 and maybe he will be all the time. 1088 01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,519 This still does give the message, showing, 1089 01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:57,880 okay, this footage can be used in a legal case. 1090 01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:59,960 [indistinct chatter] 1091 01:03:01,639 --> 01:03:03,079 [in Dutch] 1092 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:04,920 [in English] Werfalli was an interesting case 1093 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,599 because he handed himself in to the Libyan authorities. 1094 01:04:08,679 --> 01:04:10,000 There were massive protests 1095 01:04:10,079 --> 01:04:12,719 by supporters and he was released. 1096 01:04:13,239 --> 01:04:15,679 And they posted a video of him on Instagram 1097 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,000 having a special release cake. 1098 01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:20,519 So that was a bizarre thing to see. 1099 01:04:20,599 --> 01:04:23,880 He's currently still wanted by the ICC, 1100 01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,039 but he's currently not in jail anywhere. 1101 01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:29,960 I think there's a good chance 1102 01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:31,440 Werfalli could be brought to justice. 1103 01:04:31,519 --> 01:04:34,480 I think the video information that we have against him, 1104 01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:35,559 is do damning 1105 01:04:35,639 --> 01:04:37,880 and it so clearly ties him to the potential crimes 1106 01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,599 that were alleged have been committed 1107 01:04:39,679 --> 01:04:41,679 that it's really hard to turn away 1108 01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:42,760 from that video and say, 1109 01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:44,519 "Oh, no, he doesn't have any ties 1110 01:04:44,599 --> 01:04:45,960 to what's taken place." 1111 01:04:46,039 --> 01:04:47,519 Um, so the fact that these videos 1112 01:04:47,599 --> 01:04:48,599 are being grabbed, 1113 01:04:48,679 --> 01:04:49,760 that they're being preserved 1114 01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,000 that there are different videos being collected 1115 01:04:52,079 --> 01:04:53,519 by the International Criminal Court 1116 01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:55,960 from what Eliot and Bellingcat have been grabbing 1117 01:04:56,039 --> 01:04:58,119 it creates a much richer environment 1118 01:04:58,199 --> 01:04:59,760 for providing the evidence 1119 01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:01,039 that will be needed long term. 1120 01:05:01,119 --> 01:05:03,400 Now the challenge will be getting him into custody 1121 01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,119 and actually getting him extradited 1122 01:05:05,199 --> 01:05:06,760 so that you can have a trial. 1123 01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:08,159 But that's really a political question 1124 01:05:08,239 --> 01:05:09,440 and not a technical one. 1125 01:05:13,239 --> 01:05:15,239 [bell ringing] 1126 01:05:26,119 --> 01:05:31,320 [in Dutch] 1127 01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:00,480 [in English] When you know people online 1128 01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:02,239 and something happens to them in the real world 1129 01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:03,920 and they're suddenly not online 1130 01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,079 you realize how much of how you reach out to them 1131 01:06:06,159 --> 01:06:09,480 is through, you know, directly contacting them online. 1132 01:06:09,559 --> 01:06:11,400 You know, sending them a direct message on Twitter 1133 01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:12,960 or contacting them on Slack. 1134 01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:14,400 Uh, you know, when we phone him up, 1135 01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:15,960 there's no answer on his phone. 1136 01:06:16,039 --> 01:06:21,239 So we suddenly felt very disconnected from him. 1137 01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:26,119 Um, considering the pressure we get 1138 01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:27,360 from the Russian government 1139 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,280 it's very worrying when someone just disappears. 1140 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:34,599 [in Dutch] 1141 01:06:48,599 --> 01:06:50,400 [in English] One of the possibilities that is added 1142 01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:52,079 to our list of things that could happen to him 1143 01:06:52,159 --> 01:06:54,960 is maybe it has been a State suddenly trying to do something. 1144 01:06:55,039 --> 01:06:56,760 And that is kind of worrying. 1145 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:57,960 You just have to look at what happened 1146 01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:00,199 in the UK in 2018, 1147 01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:01,480 with the Skripal poisoning. 1148 01:07:01,559 --> 01:07:03,559 [thunder rumbles] 1149 01:07:03,639 --> 01:07:07,559 It is now clear that Mr. Skripal and his daughter were poisoned 1150 01:07:07,639 --> 01:07:09,719 with a military-grade nerve agent 1151 01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:11,840 of a type developed by Russia. 1152 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,440 This is part of a group of nerve agents 1153 01:07:14,519 --> 01:07:15,960 known as Novichok. 1154 01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,119 That's obviously very concerning 1155 01:07:18,199 --> 01:07:20,679 when even in the UK things like that are happening. 1156 01:07:21,239 --> 01:07:22,639 [beeps] 1157 01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,840 When you are investigating what powerful people do 1158 01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,079 whether they are states or companies or billionaires 1159 01:07:46,159 --> 01:07:48,719 you are vulnerable in many different ways. 1160 01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,000 And you could be investigated yourself. 1161 01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:52,760 You can be surveilled. 1162 01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,440 Uh, you can have propaganda campaigns 1163 01:07:56,519 --> 01:07:57,960 launched against you. 1164 01:07:58,039 --> 01:07:59,719 You can get harassed online. 1165 01:08:00,519 --> 01:08:01,639 All of that. 1166 01:08:02,199 --> 01:08:05,960 And I think the more important your work is 1167 01:08:06,039 --> 01:08:07,960 and the closer it is to power 1168 01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,639 the closer it gets to figuring out 1169 01:08:11,719 --> 01:08:13,039 what power is doing, 1170 01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:15,519 the more risk there is. 1171 01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,079 [in Russian] 1172 01:08:54,239 --> 01:08:56,279 [in Dutch] 1173 01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:11,840 [in English] Based on these specific features 1174 01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:13,649 the JIT was able to retrieve 1175 01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,279 a type of fingerprint from this Buk-TELAR. 1176 01:09:17,039 --> 01:09:20,920 [in Dutch] 1177 01:09:41,159 --> 01:09:44,239 [in English] We realize that the investigation 1178 01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:45,880 collective Bellingcat 1179 01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,359 has already concluded the same and published it. 1180 01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:50,960 [in Dutch] 1181 01:10:03,159 --> 01:10:05,039 [in English] A question for Dutch TV? 1182 01:10:05,119 --> 01:10:06,119 -Hi. -Hi. 1183 01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:09,039 Gert-Jan Dennekamp from Nieuwsuur. 1184 01:10:09,569 --> 01:10:12,840 Um... um... 1185 01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:15,760 In fact what we heard today 1186 01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,439 was what you already investigated 1187 01:10:18,529 --> 01:10:19,960 a couple of years back. 1188 01:10:20,039 --> 01:10:23,039 Uh, are you happy with this result? 1189 01:10:23,119 --> 01:10:24,720 It's nice to see that they agree with us. 1190 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:26,569 If they had presented something completely different, 1191 01:10:26,649 --> 01:10:27,920 that would have been a huge problem. 1192 01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,199 But not only did we have the stuff 1193 01:10:30,279 --> 01:10:31,359 that we saw on stage today 1194 01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:32,439 but we've had additional material 1195 01:10:32,529 --> 01:10:33,569 that further confirms 1196 01:10:33,649 --> 01:10:34,840 it's the same missile launcher. 1197 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:36,880 And tomorrow we'll be having our own press conference 1198 01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:38,720 about our new report releasing as well. 1199 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,439 About something that no one has read about yet, 1200 01:10:40,529 --> 01:10:41,800 so that will be big news. 1201 01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:43,649 What can we expect tomorrow? 1202 01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:45,760 Um, we're not going to say too much at the moment 1203 01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:50,000 because it's very sensitive, but it involves more details 1204 01:10:50,079 --> 01:10:51,279 about who was responsible 1205 01:10:51,359 --> 01:10:54,960 and who was behind what happened with MH17. 1206 01:10:55,039 --> 01:10:56,649 -Okay, thank you. -Thank you. 1207 01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:58,000 Good luck tomorrow. 1208 01:10:58,079 --> 01:10:59,199 [in Dutch] 1209 01:12:07,609 --> 01:12:12,079 [in English] I just received a message from Julia, 1210 01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,159 the daughter of Timmi. 1211 01:12:15,079 --> 01:12:18,359 "Unfortunately Timmi cannot talk on the phone at the moment. 1212 01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:20,720 He is currently in the hospital. 1213 01:12:21,279 --> 01:12:23,159 Should I give him a message from you?" 1214 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:30,680 I answered her, "Thanks, Julia, for the message. 1215 01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:31,800 We are very worried. 1216 01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,439 Can I come to the hospital directly?" 1217 01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,319 And she wrote back, 1218 01:12:38,399 --> 01:12:41,439 "At the moment a visit would not be good. 1219 01:12:42,079 --> 01:12:43,239 He is still recovering 1220 01:12:43,319 --> 01:12:45,079 from a severe brain inflammation. 1221 01:12:46,199 --> 01:12:50,079 He was in a coma for a few days, but he is getting better. 1222 01:12:50,569 --> 01:12:54,079 It will take a while, but he will be well soon. 1223 01:12:54,159 --> 01:12:57,439 I'm sorry to be the bearer of such bad news." 1224 01:12:58,529 --> 01:12:59,720 He's doing well. 1225 01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:01,880 I mean, he's lucky and he's doing well. 1226 01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:08,920 But it's still very sad news, you know. 1227 01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,000 [waves crashing] 1228 01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:18,199 It's the first time we've ever done 1229 01:13:18,279 --> 01:13:20,279 a press conference so everything that is happening here 1230 01:13:20,359 --> 01:13:21,649 is the first time I've tried to do anything. 1231 01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,649 So, yeah, there's a lot of moving parts 1232 01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:25,000 that I'm very unfamiliar with, 1233 01:13:25,079 --> 01:13:26,840 so yeah, it's stressful. 1234 01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,840 [indistinct chatter] 1235 01:13:34,569 --> 01:13:35,720 Welcome, everyone. 1236 01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:36,800 Today, Bellingcat 1237 01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:38,479 and The Insider will be releasing details 1238 01:13:38,569 --> 01:13:41,920 of a new investigation into the downing of MH17. 1239 01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,920 One thing that we must make clear is that we cannot, today, 1240 01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,920 or basically at any time 1241 01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:49,279 confirm exactly the role of this person 1242 01:13:49,359 --> 01:13:52,319 who goes by the call name Orion. 1243 01:13:52,399 --> 01:13:54,279 As published by the Joint Investigation Team 1244 01:13:54,359 --> 01:13:56,960 and earlier by the Secret Service of the Ukraine 1245 01:13:57,039 --> 01:13:59,319 this person is... 1246 01:13:59,399 --> 01:14:04,199 Was, the highest-military ranking officer at the time 1247 01:14:04,279 --> 01:14:06,960 in the so-called Luhansk People's Republic. 1248 01:14:07,569 --> 01:14:09,239 He represented 1249 01:14:09,319 --> 01:14:12,529 the military intelligence of Russia at the time 1250 01:14:12,609 --> 01:14:15,399 and he was in direct command and control 1251 01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:18,840 of the mercenary, volunteer operations 1252 01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,920 of military units and militants in eastern Ukraine, 1253 01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,960 in the Luhansk area of eastern Ukraine. 1254 01:14:29,399 --> 01:14:33,159 Oleg Vladimirovich Ivannikov is the full name, 1255 01:14:33,239 --> 01:14:35,359 the full legal name that we've identified. 1256 01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:38,880 He was born on the 2nd of April 1967 1257 01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,609 and his nickname is Orion. 1258 01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:42,960 [in Dutch] 1259 01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,239 [in English] Paul Eldering, Telegraaf, Netherlands. 1260 01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:13,439 How can you connect 1261 01:15:13,529 --> 01:15:17,399 this guy directly to the downing of MH17? 1262 01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:19,680 For now, the proof is only circumstantial. 1263 01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:23,680 We believe that the JIT has the proof 1264 01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:25,279 that they will publish in due course. 1265 01:15:25,359 --> 01:15:28,720 At this point our reasons to strongly believe 1266 01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:30,039 in the hypothesis he's connected 1267 01:15:30,119 --> 01:15:33,079 is based on the fact that two days 1268 01:15:33,159 --> 01:15:34,569 before the shooting down 1269 01:15:35,039 --> 01:15:37,760 his voice was recorded confirming 1270 01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:38,880 that they received the Buk 1271 01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:41,359 and that they would start shooting down planes. 1272 01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:42,529 That was heard clearly 1273 01:15:42,609 --> 01:15:47,680 on a call released on the 18th of July 2014. 1274 01:15:48,239 --> 01:15:50,319 From a chain of command perspective, 1275 01:15:50,399 --> 01:15:53,159 we do not see a hypothesis in which he's not involved. 1276 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:55,239 Okay, that's everything. 1277 01:15:55,319 --> 01:15:56,760 Thank you very much for your time. 1278 01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:58,079 We'll be doing one-on-one interviews 1279 01:15:58,159 --> 01:15:59,159 in five minutes. 1280 01:15:59,239 --> 01:16:00,319 Thank you very much. 1281 01:16:00,399 --> 01:16:02,279 [bell dings] 1282 01:16:08,039 --> 01:16:10,039 [indistinct chatter] 1283 01:16:15,359 --> 01:16:17,359 [crowd applause] 1284 01:16:19,359 --> 01:16:20,960 Well, thank you for helping me out. 1285 01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:26,039 And yes, well, it's a big surprise, I think. 1286 01:16:26,119 --> 01:16:27,359 [giggles] 1287 01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:31,609 The 2017 Innovation Award goes to Christiaan Triebert. 1288 01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:33,680 [all cheer] 1289 01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,720 Bellingcat has developed a lot of the talent 1290 01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:43,960 that's doing this work now. 1291 01:16:44,039 --> 01:16:45,840 And more and more because there's recognition 1292 01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:47,399 of the value of Bellingcat's work. 1293 01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:50,399 There's more and more people being contacted 1294 01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:51,960 who are part of the Bellingcat team saying, 1295 01:16:52,039 --> 01:16:54,529 "Do you want to work for this organization or that?" 1296 01:16:54,609 --> 01:16:57,039 And they are the best open-source investigators 1297 01:16:57,119 --> 01:17:00,079 that I know of. I really want to hire them 1298 01:17:00,159 --> 01:17:02,000 but I can't begrudge them if they want to go off 1299 01:17:02,079 --> 01:17:05,079 and get a job to pay them a wage rather than volunteering. 1300 01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,279 It's an online community of people 1301 01:17:08,359 --> 01:17:09,920 that are doing this voluntarily 1302 01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,159 that are looking into stuff 1303 01:17:11,239 --> 01:17:13,680 and challenge bigger actors in this world. 1304 01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:15,960 I think this is a really great thing 1305 01:17:16,039 --> 01:17:17,039 to see developing 1306 01:17:17,119 --> 01:17:19,359 and I hope that this will stimulate it as well. 1307 01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:20,800 -Thank you so much. -Thank you. 1308 01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:22,880 [crowd applause] 1309 01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:25,609 It would suck certainly if Christiaan went off 1310 01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:27,039 and worked somewhere else. 1311 01:17:27,119 --> 01:17:28,399 But I wouldn't begrudge him 1312 01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:31,079 because people have to get paid for the work they're doing. 1313 01:17:34,199 --> 01:17:37,880 Okay, where do we start? You've mentioned that company. 1314 01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:39,119 Yes, so they've agree 1315 01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:42,439 to give me 80,000 euros for the first year 1316 01:17:42,529 --> 01:17:44,279 and 80,000 for the second year, 1317 01:17:44,359 --> 01:17:46,920 and that could possibly go up to a 100,000 in the second year. 1318 01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:50,920 In principle, we would be ready to consider longer contributions 1319 01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,000 to Bellingcat. 1320 01:17:52,079 --> 01:17:54,119 For me it's just a matter of making sure 1321 01:17:54,199 --> 01:17:55,649 the next six months are covered. 1322 01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:57,609 We do not have any flexibility in the funding 1323 01:17:57,680 --> 01:17:58,840 of Bellingcat at the moment. 1324 01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:00,479 We're literally at the point 1325 01:18:00,569 --> 01:18:03,159 where my bank account is dropping to nearly zero. 1326 01:18:12,529 --> 01:18:14,079 [in Dutch] 1327 01:19:49,649 --> 01:19:51,649 [in English] The two men wanted in the UK 1328 01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:53,039 for the Skripal poisoning 1329 01:19:53,119 --> 01:19:56,239 insisted they were civilians on holiday, visiting Salisbury. 1330 01:19:56,319 --> 01:19:59,960 But today the real identity of one of the men was revealed 1331 01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:02,960 by the investigations team at Bellingcat. 1332 01:20:03,039 --> 01:20:05,840 He's not, as he claimed, Ruslan Boshirov, 1333 01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:07,319 a fitness instructor 1334 01:20:07,399 --> 01:20:09,359 but colonel Anatoliy Chepiga, 1335 01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:10,439 a highly-decorated 1336 01:20:10,529 --> 01:20:12,649 Russian Military Intelligence officer. 1337 01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:14,119 The Skripal case that came up recently 1338 01:20:14,199 --> 01:20:16,199 was actually not something we really focused on 1339 01:20:16,279 --> 01:20:18,000 until the UK released images 1340 01:20:18,079 --> 01:20:19,649 of the suspects along with pseudonyms. 1341 01:20:20,239 --> 01:20:22,199 We were in a position to get details 1342 01:20:22,279 --> 01:20:24,960 of the ID documents from Russia 1343 01:20:25,039 --> 01:20:26,079 for those two people. 1344 01:20:26,159 --> 01:20:27,920 And we discovered some interesting things, 1345 01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:31,439 for examples, their ID numbers were nearly sequential. 1346 01:20:31,529 --> 01:20:33,239 There's only a couple of spaces between them. 1347 01:20:33,319 --> 01:20:35,439 And we discovered another GRU officer 1348 01:20:35,529 --> 01:20:37,079 who'd been arrested in Montenegro 1349 01:20:37,159 --> 01:20:38,840 also had a very similar number 1350 01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,079 that was only about 25 digits different. 1351 01:20:41,159 --> 01:20:43,399 So we discovered this little batch of ID numbers 1352 01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:45,680 that seemed to be linked to GRU agents. 1353 01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:47,159 Once we published that, 1354 01:20:47,239 --> 01:20:49,800 we had a big reaction from the media 1355 01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:51,159 lots of coverage in Russia, 1356 01:20:51,239 --> 01:20:52,720 a reaction from the Russian government 1357 01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,960 -Are these people you? -Yeah, that's us. 1358 01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:58,239 What were you doing there? 1359 01:20:59,239 --> 01:21:01,529 There's the famous Salisbury Cathedral. 1360 01:21:01,609 --> 01:21:04,239 Famous not only in Europe, but in the whole world. 1361 01:21:04,319 --> 01:21:07,609 It's famous for its 123-metre spire. 1362 01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:08,840 They claimed there they got there 1363 01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:10,760 and the snow was so deep, they had to turn back. 1364 01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,800 But it's not a long walk to Salisbury Cathedral, 1365 01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:15,439 you can see it from the train station. 1366 01:21:15,529 --> 01:21:17,439 And when the police released their photographs, 1367 01:21:17,529 --> 01:21:19,920 you had them walking through Gatwick Airport. 1368 01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:21,439 People claimed that they were going 1369 01:21:21,529 --> 01:21:22,880 through the same gate at the same time 1370 01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:24,239 that can reveal... 1371 01:21:24,319 --> 01:21:26,000 But again, that just turned out to be nonsense. 1372 01:21:26,079 --> 01:21:28,279 We found images of those gates 1373 01:21:28,359 --> 01:21:30,279 at Gatwick Airport on Google Streetview 1374 01:21:30,359 --> 01:21:31,359 and it could prove 1375 01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:32,760 that they were walking side by side. 1376 01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:34,880 Not in the same place at the same time, 1377 01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:36,239 as people tried to claim they were. 1378 01:21:36,319 --> 01:21:38,760 But yeah, the reaction has been absolutely massive. 1379 01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:40,720 We've yet again revealed the identity 1380 01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:42,569 of another GRU officer. 1381 01:21:43,119 --> 01:21:44,399 The first thing to say is presumably 1382 01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:45,920 they messed up very badly here. 1383 01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:48,569 Somebody that is so senior in Russian Intelligence, 1384 01:21:48,649 --> 01:21:51,569 that was a very bad day for him, wasn't it? 1385 01:21:51,649 --> 01:21:54,529 Today has probably been the worst day of his life. 1386 01:21:54,609 --> 01:21:56,529 But, tell me about his record. 1387 01:21:56,609 --> 01:21:58,840 You've been through them, you know what he did. 1388 01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:00,569 You know how senior he is. 1389 01:22:00,649 --> 01:22:02,720 We've identified that he's been decorated 1390 01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:04,880 to the highest degree in Russia. 1391 01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:06,359 He's got the award of 1392 01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,000 "Hero of the Russian Federation". 1393 01:22:08,079 --> 01:22:09,159 So this is somebody 1394 01:22:09,239 --> 01:22:12,800 who did something outstanding in the eyes of Putin. 1395 01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:15,800 And that somebody was sent on a mission 1396 01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:17,840 to poison an ex-colleague. 1397 01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:23,569 [in Russian] 1398 01:22:44,649 --> 01:22:46,649 [calm music] 1399 01:22:58,569 --> 01:23:02,159 [in German] 1400 01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:34,119 -[doorbell dings] -[mumbles] 1401 01:23:41,319 --> 01:23:43,199 -[in English] Come on in. -[all laugh] 1402 01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:45,119 Come in. 1403 01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:47,920 Hello, Hadi. 1404 01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:49,359 Good to see you. 1405 01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:50,609 [mumbles] 1406 01:23:52,359 --> 01:23:53,359 It's a weird thing 1407 01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:54,920 because when you're working online with people 1408 01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:56,000 you don't get too much 1409 01:23:56,079 --> 01:23:58,199 of their real personality coming through. 1410 01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:00,680 So it's kind of strange especially 1411 01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,399 'cause I've worked with these people for so long 1412 01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:04,880 in a purely online space. 1413 01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:06,279 And then you meet them in person. 1414 01:24:06,359 --> 01:24:07,920 So it's kind of a weird... 1415 01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:09,079 It's like you really know them, 1416 01:24:09,159 --> 01:24:10,920 but at the same time you don't really know them. 1417 01:24:13,609 --> 01:24:16,880 One great reason why people join big organization 1418 01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:18,880 like the BBC or The New York Times 1419 01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:21,800 is the institution has lawyers, 1420 01:24:22,479 --> 01:24:24,039 it has professionals 1421 01:24:24,529 --> 01:24:26,880 who can help you if you get sued 1422 01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:30,800 or who know what are the safe practice is. 1423 01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:33,920 And people operating on their own 1424 01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,840 don't have that, that's one of the risk. 1425 01:24:36,920 --> 01:24:39,159 But you could also say from another point of view 1426 01:24:39,239 --> 01:24:41,119 that that's exactly why they're heroes, 1427 01:24:41,609 --> 01:24:43,399 that's exactly why they're inspiring 1428 01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:46,479 because they do this work 'cause they believe in it 1429 01:24:46,569 --> 01:24:48,720 and they don't have a lot of protection 1430 01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:50,319 but they do it because it's important. 1431 01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:53,079 We used to live in an environment 1432 01:24:53,159 --> 01:24:54,319 where we have gatekeepers. 1433 01:24:54,399 --> 01:24:56,609 So a certain time of night everybody would sit down 1434 01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:58,039 and watch television at the same time. 1435 01:24:58,119 --> 01:25:01,439 we had number of newspapers or radio outlets 1436 01:25:01,529 --> 01:25:03,119 and there were professional journalist 1437 01:25:03,199 --> 01:25:05,359 giving you information that have been fact check 1438 01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:06,840 and sourced professionally. 1439 01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:09,159 So when into that landscape 1440 01:25:09,239 --> 01:25:12,840 you have people flooding it with misinformation 1441 01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:14,399 and lies and falsehood. 1442 01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:16,680 Then what it leads to is people just saying, 1443 01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,000 "I'm just gonna step away from the process." 1444 01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:21,199 So your gonna have people that are not voting, 1445 01:25:21,279 --> 01:25:22,960 your gonna have people turning away 1446 01:25:23,039 --> 01:25:24,159 from the mainstream media 1447 01:25:24,239 --> 01:25:25,239 and you gonna have people 1448 01:25:25,319 --> 01:25:27,529 basically connecting with one another 1449 01:25:27,609 --> 01:25:29,840 with other people who feel the same way as them. 1450 01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:31,649 So, we are not quite there yet, 1451 01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:33,609 but it's not gonna take very long for us 1452 01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:34,960 to be in that situation. 1453 01:25:35,039 --> 01:25:37,119 I bought Bellingcat T-shirt for everyone. 1454 01:25:37,199 --> 01:25:38,399 Yey! 1455 01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:39,800 It's definitely not because my wife 1456 01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:40,920 told me to get rid of them. 1457 01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:42,239 [all laugh] 1458 01:25:42,319 --> 01:25:46,000 There are no solution, there's no fix, 1459 01:25:46,079 --> 01:25:50,439 there's just endless struggle ahead. 1460 01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:55,039 And if you believe in democracy if you think it's important 1461 01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:58,720 that political democracy survives 1462 01:25:59,649 --> 01:26:01,880 that we have consent of the governed, 1463 01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:03,960 that we have open societies, 1464 01:26:04,039 --> 01:26:06,279 that we have civil liberties for all. 1465 01:26:06,359 --> 01:26:08,680 If you think those things are important 1466 01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:09,960 we are entering to a period 1467 01:26:10,039 --> 01:26:11,680 where they have to be fought for. 1468 01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:14,399 [all laugh] 1469 01:26:15,079 --> 01:26:16,720 Okay, so, um, first of all, 1470 01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:17,800 a toast to Timmi, 1471 01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:19,199 it's great to see that he is better 1472 01:26:19,279 --> 01:26:20,840 and he is recovering, 1473 01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:22,649 so, uh, a toast to Timmi. 1474 01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:24,359 -Toast to Timmi. -Yeah. 1475 01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:25,569 Toast. 1476 01:26:26,119 --> 01:26:27,680 -Cheers. -Cheers. 1477 01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:32,399 The investigative website Bellingcat 1478 01:26:32,479 --> 01:26:36,399 has identify the second suspect responsible for poisoning 1479 01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:38,920 former Russian spy Sergei Skripal. 1480 01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:42,680 Bellingcat says his name is Alexander Yevgenyevich Mishkin. 1481 01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:45,279 A military doctor with Russia's Military Intelligence 1482 01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:47,159 agency to the GRU. 1483 01:26:47,239 --> 01:26:50,159 Bellingcat says he was recruited by GRU 1484 01:26:50,239 --> 01:26:52,279 during his medical studies. 1485 01:27:57,079 --> 01:27:59,079 [closing theme music] 107651

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