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The village shop and post office
had come up for sale.
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Someone suggested that I would be
the perfect person to take it over.
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I started my first job
as a postman back in 1965.
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00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,720
and in 1994,
I took over the post office.
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I passed my interview, so, yeah,
I was given the position.
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And everything was perfect.
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We had a group of pensioners
who would come in
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to get their pension every week.
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Very much part of a community.
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28p, please, love.
How much?
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You do get to know your locals.
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We'd have a good banter,
a good laugh with all the customers.
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It was really good.
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You're not only their postmaster.
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You were also an adviser to people.
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It was lovely.
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You felt like you were actually
the heart of the village.
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Morning. With you in a minute.
No rush.
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00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,200
'It was idyllic.'
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00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,640
I felt that I'd managed
to get myself a good position.
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As a postmistress, it's not easy.
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'The idea was it would be
my retirement business.'
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'I thought I was gonna
spend the rest of my life there.'
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But I didn't know
what was ahead of me.
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I went through hell.
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'It was diabolical.'
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Something had to be done about it.
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'Look, Alan!'
[CHEERING]
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'Look what we did,
look what you did!'
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'Should the Post Office bosses
go to prison, too?'
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'No. No, no.
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'Hit them in their pockets.'
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Hit them in their pockets.
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That's what you want to do.
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That's... That's what's gonna
hurt them.
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TOBY JONES: This is the story
of a saga that began
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nearly 25 years ago.
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We were not mad, were we?
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00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:07,520
Dealing with Post Office
has been harder
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00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,080
than dealing with the mafia.
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00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,680
It's like fighting a steam roller.
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A group of subpostmasters
from all over the UK
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fought to expose one of the widest
miscarriages of justice
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00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:19,360
in British legal history.
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We want answers now
to know who's actually done this
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to so many people, and why.
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NEWSREEL: 'There begins
the long chain of accounting,
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'and every ha'penny
of every transaction accounted for.'
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The Post Office was established
in 1660,
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and had always used paper and pen
to balance the books.
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00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,640
But in 1999, management introduced
something completely new...
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..a computer system called Horizon.
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It was the biggest IT roll-out
in Europe.
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The Post Office connected 40,000
terminals across the country
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to one central hub.
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00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,040
'An engineer arrived.'
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He screwed it on the desk,
and I asked him what it was,
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and he goes, "That's Horizon.
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"It's going live shortly,
you'll hear all about it."
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00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,840
It was great,
I was really enthusiastic.
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00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,280
I'd been involved with developing
bespoke software packages
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where I'd worked before,
and I was all for it.
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Basically, I never had a problem
balancing until that was installed,
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00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,840
and then a couple of months
after that,
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I had a very big shortfall
at the end of the week.
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It said I was minus £2,000.
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00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,360
Just overnight,
£11,000 of stamps had gone missing.
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00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,560
I suddenly found
I had £6,000 shortfall,
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and I couldn't understand
where that had gone.
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That was a ridiculous amount.
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There was no way of going back
and checking stuff
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like you did with the paper,
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cos once you pressed that button,
it had gone.
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00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,080
I rang the help desk,
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and they told me
to do various things,
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which doubled the shortfall
to minus £4,000.
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When I rang the helpline,
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I was told that there was
nobody else having these problems.
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00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,280
Oh, yes, the helpline
was telling you,
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"Nobody else has got a problem.
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00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:25,920
"You're the only one."
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"You're the only one
this is happening to."
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"You're the only one."
That's what they kept saying.
84
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,040
Then I started feeling
like I was going mad.
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I knew I wasn't computer-literate,
but I wasn't stupid either.
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00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:41,560
In the end,
you were totally confused,
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and nothing was done.
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Under the terms of their contracts,
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the 20,000 subpostmasters
were liable for any shortfall,
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00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,360
whatever the cause.
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00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,960
When it got to about £9,000 short,
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I told my parents and my husband,
and I said,
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00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,000
"Can we re-mortgage
and put the money in?
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00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,000
"Cos I've got no idea
what's happening,
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00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,360
"but I've got to make it good."
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00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,440
My mum went down
to the building society
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and drew it out,
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and we put it into -
the money into the safe.
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00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,360
Every week, I was
putting money in myself.
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00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,880
So, we basically went through
the cash until it all ran out
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00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,680
to try and make up the balance
every day.
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It was just up and down,
up and down.
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00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:29,960
It was never, ever right.
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00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,040
And on the end of the month when
we had to do the main balance...
105
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,720
..that's when it all
used to come out, like...
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00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,000
Where's this money gone?
107
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And the amount kept growing,
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so I then didn't say anything.
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I kept quiet and let it grow
to £36,000.
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Terrified of what was gonna happen.
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In North Wales,
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one subpostmaster
took a different approach.
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I had £1,000 of shortfall,
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and I've never been
accepting the figure
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that Horizon had
thrown up each week.
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Because I always felt
that if I cleared it,
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00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,720
I was accepting
the Horizon system's figures.
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And I wasn't prepared to do that.
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Eventually,
they got round to telling me
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I had to do it or else.
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00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,200
And I said, "I won't do it, not
until I have access to the system."
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00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,520
And eventually, they decided
just to terminate my contract
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without giving me any reason,
and that was it.
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So, they walked off
with my life savings
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and they decided to give
my post office to somebody else.
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Horizon just created
a whole batch of worry,
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not just for me,
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but for subpostmasters
all over the country.
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00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,840
I shall probably clean
at least till I'm 70-ish.
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00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:19,000
I'm resigned to the fact
that I only have the state pension,
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and unless I sell my house,
I need to keep working.
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The Post Office used
their sweeping powers
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to bring private prosecutions
against their own employees.
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In 2003,
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they went after Jo for the money
they said she'd stolen.
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I was originally charged
with theft,
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and I pleaded not guilty.
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And we almost got to trial,
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00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,560
and they offered up a plea bargain
at the 11th hour,
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And said, "Well, if you plead guilty
to false accounting,
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"we'll drop the theft charge,
provided you repay the money."
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That meant Jo was forced to borrow
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00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,200
in order to pay back the £36,000
the computer said was missing.
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00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,280
I could only raise £30,000
on the house,
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so we had a village meeting.
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And I had to explain to everybody
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that I was in trouble
in the Post Office.
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And someone put up their hand
and they said,
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cos it was November, they said,
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"Well, couldn't Jo have
an early Christmas present?"
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00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,520
And from the moment I told them,
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I thought they were all gonna think
I'd stolen money, and they didn't,
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it was quite the opposite,
and, erm... yeah.
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It was very humbling.
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Literally thousands of pounds
went through the letterbox.
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I think we'd reached it
in about two weeks, and... Yeah.
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INTERVIEWER: Wow.
My village.
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When she went to court,
the village showed up again.
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00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:05,400
I just looked at the judge,
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00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,400
and he goes, "Well I'm not
considering a custodial sentence."
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Well, I was literally...
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Just the tears were
streaming down my face.
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Jo was sentenced
to a 12-month supervision order.
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00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,480
But there were other people whose
ordeals left an even greater mark.
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00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,600
'We had a lot
of happy memories here.'
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00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,760
Especially when the children
used to come off the bus.
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We used to look forward
to seeing them after school.
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They used to come running
across this road.
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Yeah.
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'They enjoyed being here as well.
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'Would've handed it over to them.
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'A lot of happy memories.'
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But they all got broken.
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In 2009, the Post Office charged
Jess with the theft of £5,000.
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00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,680
And her face was splashed
across the local papers.
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Family members actually went
round to the shops, local shops,
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00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,240
and gathered as many papers
as they could.
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It was also in one
of the Punjabi papers as well.
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00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,520
So, basically, everybody read
that story and pointed fingers.
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00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,680
We had somebody come in
and spit on the floor as well.
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00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,080
We had car windows broken.
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00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,880
You know, they did try and,
like, traumatise us, really.
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I got this feeling
that everybody else is thinking
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that "she's a thief".
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And thinking about it day and night,
day and night.
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I just wanted to end my life.
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I'm showing you the box.
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We can cross quickly.
189
00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:09,320
And this is where
the Post Office was.
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00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,160
Noel Thomas became a postman
at the age of 17.
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00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,400
In 2005, when his nightmare began,
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he had only ever worked
for the Post Office.
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00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,520
There we are.
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00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,480
We're by the box
which was the Post Office
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00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:30,640
that my wife and I ran for,
erm, 36 years.
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00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:36,200
You know, it was a betrayal,
wasn't it, when we lost this?
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00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,680
At half past seven,
there was a knock on the door,
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00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:44,440
and, er, there was a lady
and a gentleman in the door,
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00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,480
and said they were Post Office
auditors, and so I let them in,
200
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,720
made them a cup of tea, and I told
them straightaway that I was,
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00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:58,720
erm, about £52,000 down,
so all hell let loose.
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00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,120
Noel was arrested and questioned
at a police station.
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00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:10,240
She was just, "Where was the money?
Where was the money?
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00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:11,520
"And what did you do with it?"
205
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,080
You know,
it was really aggressive.
206
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,840
Then the Post Office did to Noel
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00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,840
what they did
to many other subpostmasters.
208
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,200
They offered
to drop the theft charge
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00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,680
if he agreed to plead guilty
to false accounting.
210
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,240
I remember me telling him,
"Will it keep me out of jail?"
211
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:34,720
And he said, "Yes."
212
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,160
But unfortunately,
when I went into court,
213
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,480
er, the judge, erm,
came to his sentencing words,
214
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,640
and he said, erm, "Nine months,"
and he sort of paused.
215
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,720
And I waited
for a suspended sentence.
216
00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,040
But he said, erm, "Take him down."
217
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,240
'I'd been a councillor,
I'd been a postmaster,
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00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,480
'I'd been a postman and,
er, highly thought of.'
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00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,560
All of a sudden, er,
it was all taken away from me,
220
00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,560
like taking a mat
from under your feet, if you like.
221
00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:21,680
It was bloody horrible.
222
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,600
'My journalistic life
has been dominated by this.'
223
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,880
I mean, it's the biggest story
I've worked on.
224
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,080
It's probably the biggest story
I'll ever work on.
225
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,520
In 2009, the story hadn't
hit the press yet.
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00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,800
Social media was in its infancy.
227
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,560
Even though many subpostmasters
were being prosecuted,
228
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,280
each one of them thought
they were the only one.
229
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,360
But that was about to change.
230
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,040
This particular article began
231
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,320
because we were contacted by
a subpostmaster about his problems.
232
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,800
Often when you get contacted
by a single person,
233
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,200
it's very hard to stand up a story.
234
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,280
But one of my former colleagues,
an alarm bell rang in his head,
235
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,280
and he thought,
"I've heard this before."
236
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,440
And I think
it was four years earlier,
237
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,360
he'd been contacted by Alan Bates,
who'd had the same problems.
238
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,200
Then they started
to build up a picture.
239
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:33,560
People having the same problems,
240
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,880
people being told the same thing
from the Post Office,
241
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,520
which eventually led to them
gathering information
242
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,640
about four other subpostmasters
and doing this first story.
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00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,760
But we were so worried
about legal action.
244
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,360
We didn't publish it for a year.
245
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,960
This was the response
from the Post Office.
246
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,760
That was an outright lie.
247
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,640
We knew of seven postmasters
who had complained,
248
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,920
and also, we know that computers
have problems,
249
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,160
especially complex systems.
250
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,880
Suddenly,
subpostmasters who had problems
251
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,640
were seeing the story,
contacting each other,
252
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,480
which then started the campaign.
253
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,760
That's the seven
from Computer Weekly,
254
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,920
then there's, er,
two that came via our website.
255
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,960
But where are all the others?
256
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,920
So we thought, "Let's see
if we can get people together,
257
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,240
"and let's see
how big the problem actually is."
258
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:41,720
Somewhere central.
259
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,640
Fenny...
Compton.
260
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,360
We didn't know if anyone
was gonna turn up, but, er,
261
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,960
slowly but surely, people turned up.
262
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,760
We all sat round in a circle
telling our stories,
263
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,840
and you almost felt embarrassed
about having to say,
264
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,360
"Oh, I'm Jo,
and I've been done for £36,000."
265
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,800
But I realised, "Oh, my God,
we're all exactly the same."
266
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,640
That's when the stories...
267
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,800
A jigsaw started coming together,
if you know what I mean.
268
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,880
And we'd all had our lives
completely tipped upside down.
269
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,240
People had been losing houses,
cashing in their pensions,
270
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,640
they'd been borrowing money
off relatives,
271
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,440
marriages were splitting up.
272
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,840
We all looked like
we'd been in a war
273
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,160
and just weary with the stress
that we'd been put through,
274
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,760
and the shame of it.
275
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,280
It was diabolical.
276
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,680
But that's when we knew
something had to be done about it.
277
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,240
And that's when we picked
Alan Bates as chairman.
278
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,320
That was really
the start of everything,
279
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,120
and that's where the JFSA,
280
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,000
Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance,
was born.
281
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,080
It was like a switch got turned,
and the Post Office was the enemy.
282
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,920
They'd gone from this trusted brand
to a monster.
283
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,440
And it was like,
"We are gonna get them."
284
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:44,240
This is the view I have of him
most of the time.
285
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,880
I mean, most mornings,
this is what he's doing,
286
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,560
and as you can see,
he's still in his dressing gown.
287
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,240
TOBY JONES: For the past 20 years,
Alan and his partner, Suzanne,
288
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,880
have had their lives dominated
by one thing.
289
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:04,000
The whole of this Post Office issue
has, er, turned into probably
290
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,880
the worst unpaid full-time job
you can imagine.
291
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,880
I'm gonna do the cat,
292
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,480
and I'll have her sitting down
on the carpet here,
293
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:16,720
looking up at him as if to say,
294
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,880
"Well, when are you gonna finish,
you know?
295
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,880
"When are you gonna take a break?"
296
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:28,040
Because you are hearing stories
of such distress and family ruin.
297
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,080
So you couldn't give up
working on something like this
298
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,760
because it developed
a life of its own.
299
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,800
And it wasn't just me.
300
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,280
Other people were
chasing their own MPs.
301
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,440
The good thing about being an MP is,
302
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,800
if you contact someone like
the Chairman of the Post Office
303
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,480
and say, "I'd like to meet you
to talk this through,"
304
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,520
they tend to respond.
305
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,440
Erm, Mrs Hamilton?
That's me.
306
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,160
James Arbuthnot.
Thank you for coming.
307
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,840
'He came out to the shop
and met my parents.'
308
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,400
And he was just
a thoroughly decent guy.
309
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,280
There are two other cases
in my constituency alone.
310
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,040
Wow, really?
It's very odd, isn't it?
311
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,400
I thought, "There's something
obviously not right."
312
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,080
'And so I went to see
313
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,480
'the then Chief Executive
of the Post Office, Paula Vennells.'
314
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,280
We're the ones who are going
to keep the Post Office
315
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,640
as relevant and as loved
and as trusted in the communities
316
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,480
that it is today.
317
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:37,000
Paula Vennells was hired
by the Post Office in 2007.
318
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,680
By 2012, she'd worked her way up
to the top job,
319
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,600
and used her in-house PR
320
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,640
to highlight her commitment
to subpostmasters.
321
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,880
I say this very specifically,
actually,
322
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,480
putting our subpostmasters
323
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,720
and the colleagues
who work in our agency branches
324
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,320
right at the forefront
of everything we think about.
325
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,480
It was Paula Vennells who suggested
that what we needed
326
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,840
was forensic accountants
to go into the allegations,
327
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,200
and we said,
"That's exactly what we need.
328
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,200
"Who would you recommend?"
329
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,800
Ron Warmington runs Second Sight.
330
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,400
I was Head of Investigations
331
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,520
for one of the world's biggest banks
for many years.
332
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,000
And now I'm meant to be retired.
333
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,440
The only reason I'm not retired
is because of this case.
334
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,960
Ron's investigation was paid for
by the Post Office itself.
335
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,640
But, obviously, we had
very serious concerns that
336
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,160
it's gonna be a bit of a whitewash.
337
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,680
So Alan and the MPs brought in
their own top forensic accountant.
338
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,240
RON: Kay Linnell flew at me
like a tigress.
339
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,160
I don't doubt
your paper qualifications,
340
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,080
I have them here in front of me,
but I see nothing to persuade me
341
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,400
that Second Sight
is remotely capable
342
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,720
of producing
a truly independent report.
343
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,120
Clearly suspecting that either
we were hired to do a whitewash
344
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:08,760
or that
we'd be hopelessly incompetent -
345
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,200
probably, she thought both.
346
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,120
The involvement
with the Post Office
347
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,400
started with Jo Hamilton,
my local subpostmistress.
348
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,960
Kay volunteered
to help the subpostmasters.
349
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,440
I had no idea
how long it would take,
350
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,000
but I knew we had a room of people
who had lost everything
351
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,840
or were losing everything,
352
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,840
and people were still being
prosecuted almost on a daily basis.
353
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,240
And I knew we had to do something
354
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,640
to try and stop the tide
or raise the profile.
355
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,720
She clearly was exactly
the person we needed.
356
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,400
Having had that meeting
with Ron and Ian,
357
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,360
which I suspect they will remember,
358
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,400
I was satisfied
they would do an independent job.
359
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:02,520
Ron's team began their investigation
in 2012.
360
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,120
At that time,
the Post Office continued
361
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,600
to prosecute subpostmasters.
362
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,200
Basically, I was told I was going
to get two years in prison.
363
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,320
In the West Midlands,
364
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,240
Jess was convinced a faulty PIN pad
on her Horizon terminal
365
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,600
had caused the shortfall.
366
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,080
And she pleaded not guilty to theft.
367
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,560
But the case dragged on
for three years.
368
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,320
Went to numerous courts
up and down the country.
369
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,320
In Wolverhampton Crown Court,
370
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,240
the judge said,
"Where's the PIN pad?"
371
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,480
And the Post Office said,
372
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,400
"The PIN pad's been taken away
for repair."
373
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,520
And so the judge said, "Well...
374
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,120
"If it's gone for repair,
it was faulty."
375
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,640
That's when it all got thrown out,
basically.
376
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,440
By then, the damage had been done.
377
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,480
The stress that we'd been through,
378
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:07,080
the trauma that we'd been through,
lied to, bullied,
379
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,880
it all mounted up,
and I ended up in hospital.
380
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,040
And I-I went to commit suicide.
381
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,080
I even tried to commit suicide
in hospital.
382
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:25,760
Jess was so ill,
383
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,640
the doctors decided to treat her
with electroconvulsive therapy.
384
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,000
All I remember
is they used to put this...
385
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,280
Like a helmet type thing on my head.
386
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,520
And the shockwaves
were going through my brain.
387
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,160
So I had... I think I had
14 treatments like that.
388
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,760
After that, I lost all my memory.
389
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,400
I don't remember anything
from my childhood.
390
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,920
I couldn't sleep
unless I had sleeping tablets.
391
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,440
Put me on numerous medication...
392
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,520
..which I'm still on today.
393
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,400
And it's all down
to the Post Office.
394
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,120
During Ron's investigation,
it became clear
395
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:23,640
the Post Office had
some serious questions to answer.
396
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,840
There were documents which
looked extremely suspicious,
397
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,080
very poor investigative processes
that were directed
398
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,120
blatantly at simply
recovering assets
399
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:42,880
by trying to get
the easiest conviction possible,
400
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,720
which generally
was false accounting,
401
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:50,920
using as a cudgel,
bluffing that they had a theft case.
402
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,280
I'm pretty used to being able
to detect crooks.
403
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,920
But when I really dug deeper,
404
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,160
I didn't find any evidence
of theft at all.
405
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,080
We didn't know whether
the investigation would work,
406
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,120
but the very fact that they had
access to Post Office's data,
407
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,200
erm, seemed quite promising.
408
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,600
And at that time, we did understand
409
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,360
that Post Office... did actually
want to get to the truth.
410
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,760
I felt we were getting somewhere.
411
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,800
Ha, little did I know
how long the journey was gonna be.
412
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:54,040
Remote access to the system
was always a huge concern.
413
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,800
And the reason why
414
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,880
was it meant that someone else
could be accessing your accounts
415
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,800
on your counter in your Post Office,
and you did not know about it.
416
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,760
When the Post Office rolled out
their new computer system,
417
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,960
every subpostmaster's computer
was hard-wired to a central hub.
418
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,760
This was located at the headquarters
of the company
419
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,840
who designed and managed Horizon,
Fujitsu.
420
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:29,360
Post Office were quite adamant
that no-one else
421
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,800
could ever access the systems
or do anything like this at all.
422
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,080
And that was something
423
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,960
that we wanted Second Sight
to prove had occurred,
424
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,320
or how it had occurred.
425
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,040
I went to Fujitsu headquarters
with the intention of helping
426
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,120
and looking at the system,
427
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:56,960
and how we accounted for
bureau de change within branches.
428
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,520
Er, Michael Rudkin
to see George Delph.
429
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,800
That was the purpose of my visit.
430
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,760
'I arrived, as scheduled,
about ten o'clock in the morning.'
431
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,840
Cheers.
'Went into reception.'
432
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,520
Mr Rudkin, George Delph, hi.
433
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,240
'Within a few minutes,
my chaperone arrived.'
434
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,080
I was really taken aback
by the number of security doors
435
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,480
that we had to pass through.
436
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,600
I was encouraged to enter into
the boiler room by my chaperone.
437
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,320
And in doing so, I then recognised
to the right-hand side of me,
438
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,000
there's two Horizon terminals
on this workbench.
439
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,040
One of the guys not happy with
my presence gets up and walks out.
440
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,800
My chaperone said,
441
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,560
"This is my covert operations team
and my covert operations room."
442
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,600
He proceeded to enter into
this particular account,
443
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,640
and he started, er,
altering figures,
444
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,680
which I said to him,
"Is this real-time?"
445
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,240
He says,
"Look, I'll just prove it."
446
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,560
He says, "I'll alter the Euro
figures in this branch's accounts."
447
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,800
You're inside some subpostmaster's
Horizon, and he doesn't know?
448
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,600
In total disbelief, I said,
449
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,760
"Are you sure you can
alter these figures in real time?"
450
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,600
And he said, "Yes."
451
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,800
I said,
"Well, for your information..."
452
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,760
I've been telling my members
for years,
453
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,440
no-one else has access
to their branch accounts.
454
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,480
' "And here you are proving
that you've got remote access." '
455
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,160
At which there was an immediate look
of disdain on his face,
456
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,600
and then ushered me out,
457
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,080
and more or less thrown out
as though I was...
458
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:33,880
..a thief.
459
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,040
I said to Michael, "Your story
is really, really interesting.
460
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,040
"But Post Office, of course,
461
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,960
"will ask for evidence
to support what you're saying.
462
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,760
"So we need to find
the visitors book."
463
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,920
The so-called visitors book
that I signed,
464
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,120
ironically, is the only
visitors book that's disappeared.
465
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,200
"So, Michael, you need to have
a look through your email records
466
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,280
"to see if you can find the
invitation that came through to you,
467
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,720
"so get to it, Michael,
I need it, and I need it quickly."
468
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,960
I had a telephone conversation
with Ron.
469
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,760
I said, "I have the evidence.
Are you in front of your computer?"
470
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,680
He said, "Yes."
471
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,200
I said, "Well,
I'm pressing send now." I did.
472
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,200
The reply came back.
473
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,040
"Oh, my effing good God.
474
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,320
"They are now going to become
a hostage to fortune."
475
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,760
The day after Michael's visit
to Fujitsu,
476
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,400
Post Office officials
paid him a visit.
477
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,320
What come as an even greater shock
478
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,280
was the orders that then came
into my bedroom at 8:30
479
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,320
that following morning,
sat on the edge of my bed, and said,
480
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,280
"You've got a £44,000 shortage
in your office."
481
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,280
My wife, Susan,
who's managing the branch,
482
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,360
ended up being convicted
with 300 hours community service,
483
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,160
electronically tagged
for six months.
484
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,600
She had to live through
and endure that experience.
485
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:15,280
In 2013, Second Sight
published their initial findings.
486
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,200
With Ron's report
in the public domain,
487
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,040
Post Office management
changed their approach.
488
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,800
Paula Vennells rang me up to say,
489
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,640
"What we're proposing
is a mediation scheme
490
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,000
"between the subpostmasters
and the Post Office,
491
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,680
"with a senior judge
as the mediator.
492
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,400
"And that will be able to get
to the bottom of all these cases."
493
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,480
And I said,
"Well, that sounds right and proper.
494
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,040
"Let's go ahead with that."
495
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,800
Alan put forward 150 cases
for the new scheme.
496
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,360
The whole process was only meant
to take X amount of months in total.
497
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,560
It was running into years.
498
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,000
You're supposed to go to mediation
with a willingness to settle,
499
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,800
but it appeared that the Post Office
was sending two lawyers
500
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,080
who turned up and said,
501
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,040
"You're out of time to make a claim,
it's over six years old. Forget it."
502
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,280
I think they were actually
uncovering the real truth
503
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,480
of what had been going on,
504
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,640
and they didn't want
to come forward with it.
505
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,360
The Post Office has spent
public money on a mediation scheme
506
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,120
which they themselves
have set out to sabotage.
507
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,600
In Westminster, James Arbuthnot
508
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,120
was working hard to keep the case
in the public eye.
509
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,320
And they've broken their word
to Members of Parliament
510
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,360
in so many different respects
that it is frankly bewildering.
511
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,840
If you could just introduce yourself
for voice transcription purposes.
512
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,320
Paula Vennells,
Chief Executive of Post Office.
513
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,640
And then Paula was called in
to face MPs.
514
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,520
'People do not like appearing
in front of select committees.'
515
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,000
Because the select committee
may get to the bottom of things
516
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,800
that the witnesses may prefer
that they didn't.
517
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,320
Before the hearing,
518
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,800
Paula Vennells asked colleagues
to help clarify what she should say.
519
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,720
Here we go.
520
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,400
A copy of her email
has since come to light.
521
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,920
"Urgent: Accessing Horizon.
522
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,160
"Dear both, your help,
please, in prep for the SC,
523
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,040
"the select committee hearing."
524
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,440
That's obviously the question
she's being warned
525
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,320
she's gonna have to answer.
526
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,040
This is a system that works well,
527
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,280
and it works well
for the vast majority of people.
528
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,600
For those it doesn't work for,
we are doing our utmost.
529
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,680
I've got Nadhim,
and then I've got Brian...
530
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,880
The MPs wanted to know why
the Post Office had been obstructive
531
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,160
during Second Sight's investigation.
532
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,800
Paula, why don't you
give those files over?
533
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,200
What's the problem?
Erm, so, I...
534
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,520
I think the point I want
to pick up first, if I may...
535
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,120
No, just...
No, answer my question first.
536
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,760
Why won't you give Ian Henderson
those files? Why?
537
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,840
We have...
As far as I'm aware, Mr Zahawi,
538
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,800
we have shared whatever information
was appropriate on every single...
539
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,440
That's not what
Ian Henderson's saying.
540
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,440
It is the first time personally
I have heard that.
541
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,240
You're the head of the organisation.
542
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:49,960
Will you provide it? Yes or no?
Simple.
543
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,000
I'm not prepared,
on behalf of the Post Office...
544
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,880
Right, I've got my answer,
so you won't...
545
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,720
No, you haven't got your answer,
you haven't heard a yes or no.
546
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,800
I'm simply saying
that at the moment,
547
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,040
I'm not able to answer
your question.
548
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,600
'It was pointed out to her
time after time
549
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,720
'that she was in charge
and the decisions were with her.'
550
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,080
But it just seemed to wash over her.
551
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,040
Well, this sounds like a shambles
to me.
552
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,160
You came in here, opened by saying
the system's working beautifully.
553
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,760
You now realise why you're in front
of the committee, is that right?
554
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,680
The system... The reason...
Ian said...
555
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,280
ALAN: I just couldn't understand
why, even after that,
556
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,760
she didn't take things on board
and actually be honest and own up
557
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,560
and actually try and resolve it,
558
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,360
which she should've done
far earlier.
559
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,200
I'm very sorry
that I can't answer that. It's..
560
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,360
JO: When I listened to the evidence
from Paula Vennells...
561
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,240
..I realised
what we were gonna be up against,
562
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:49,080
and just what it looks like.
563
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,320
I have been told that
we're providing information.
564
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,400
It looks like
it's a massive corporate cover-up.
565
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,320
Then, a few weeks after
the select committee hearing,
566
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,920
the Post Office
changed their approach again.
567
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,040
Post Office dynamited
the mediation working group
568
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,520
and fired everybody.
569
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,240
I think at that stage,
570
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:19,360
she decided it was preferable
to cover up the injustice
571
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:25,080
and to allow these subpostmasters
to go to the wall.
572
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,480
And I think that's shocking.
573
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,920
We were growing information,
we were growing data.
574
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,160
TOBY JONES:
For more than ten years,
575
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,680
Alan Bates and his team
of campaigners
576
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,560
had been carefully
gathering evidence bit by bit
577
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,720
against the Post Office.
578
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:50,800
Because we had those documents,
579
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,360
there was a possibility then
of starting some sort of litigation
580
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,640
in the civil courts
against the Post Office.
581
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,720
If we could find a legal firm
to take it on board for us.
582
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,680
REPORTER:
'The headlines this morning.
583
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,280
'A report has criticised
the Post Office for sacking
584
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:11,880
'or prosecuting subpostmasters
585
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,120
'without establishing the cause
of cash shortfalls
586
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,520
'at their branches.'
587
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,640
Driving into work, normal day,
into Leeds,
588
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,720
and I heard a BBC radio programme.
589
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:26,240
'If the cash recorded
by the computer system
590
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:30,640
'does not match up with the cash
that's actually held at the branch,
591
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,520
'then they are held responsible
for it.'
592
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,200
I thought, "There may be something
we could do about this to help,"
593
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,080
because it didn't sound right,
so I contacted Alan Bates.
594
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,800
I explained the case to him,
595
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,760
I showed him the type of evidence
that we had at the time.
596
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,400
And I explained we had no money
at all,
597
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,160
but we felt there was a case there.
598
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,120
So I needed to weigh up
whether or not
599
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,520
we could raise the necessary
litigation funding.
600
00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,320
There are specialist funders
who are willing to take the risk,
601
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,560
but only if there are enough of you.
602
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,440
Because otherwise we knew
that Post Office would outspend us
603
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:07,680
and we would lose.
604
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,320
The only way that we were gonna
be able to break through this
605
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,920
and uncover it
was a full-scale group action.
606
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,840
Group litigation orders are used
when you've got very poor claimants
607
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,960
and they've got enough similarity
in their cases
608
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,200
that you can literally fund one case
609
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,800
and solve a lot
of people's problems.
610
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,040
It was the only way, and to do that,
611
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,760
we needed a much larger group
of postmasters.
612
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,760
How many would you need?
613
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,360
At least 500.
614
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,080
The meeting kicked off
a nationwide search
615
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,760
to find subpostmasters
616
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,680
who'd had problems with Horizon.
617
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,080
Eventually, 555 people pursued
a group litigation order
618
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,080
against the Post Office.
619
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,080
The case against Post Office
was very much to expose
620
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,320
the way individuals had
been mistreated in there.
621
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,480
The lack of information
that was available from Post Office.
622
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,760
The flaws in the system
they'd never owned up to.
623
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,440
The denial that had happened,
the bullying that had gone on.
624
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:21,160
The abuse of individuals, the way
that they'd raided people's houses.
625
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,400
The way they'd been so high-handed,
God almighty, didn't give a damn,
626
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,760
their Post Office
and they can do what they want -
627
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,920
that's what we wanted exposing.
628
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,320
Alan had found the lawyers,
they'd got the funding.
629
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:35,760
And we were on.
630
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,040
Alan and the Justice
For Subpostmasters Alliance
631
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,960
finally took the Post Office
to court to seek financial redress.
632
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:50,680
Well, I went four days
after my mum died.
633
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,720
She'd said to me,
"Please don't stop."
634
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:57,600
And she said, "I'll be with you.
635
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,560
"Wherever you are,
I'll be with you."
636
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,360
And, erm, yeah, four days later,
I went to court.
637
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,800
Among Alan's group
of 555 subpostmasters
638
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,800
were people whose lives had been
devastated by the Post Office.
639
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,600
Many had been bankrupted,
prosecuted or imprisoned.
640
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,400
Gathering enough evidence
at the beginning of the case
641
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,440
was challenging because
Post Office had the evidence,
642
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,880
which meant we were having
to build the case
643
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,040
with one arm tied behind our backs.
644
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:37,480
But during the case, the Post Office
was forced to disclose evidence
645
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,800
they'd always claimed
was irrelevant.
646
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,920
So, what we've got here
is a known-error log.
647
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,320
So what this records is the fact
that there were internet problems,
648
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:48,920
network problems,
649
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,880
which were causing the error
in the system,
650
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,120
which in turn were messing up
the figures
651
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,280
and causing a financial discrepancy.
652
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,600
This particular example showed that
the transaction that had gone wrong
653
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,480
needed to be manually corrected.
654
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,920
They had teams and teams of people
doing it all day long, year on year.
655
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,560
Quite often in litigation cases,
in court cases, lawyers will say,
656
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,320
"Well, very rarely are we ever
gonna find a smoking gun."
657
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,360
These were smoking guns.
658
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,360
Not just one smoking gun,
multiple smoking guns,
659
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,480
which prove to us
and prove to the court
660
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,120
that there were multiple problems
in the system,
661
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,600
there had been from day one
when it was installed.
662
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,080
And that was why Post Office
lost the court case.
663
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,560
At the end of the court hearings,
664
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,880
Justice Fraser delivered
a 330-page judgement
665
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,360
outlining his findings
on the Horizon system.
666
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,760
On the day the judgement
was handed down,
667
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,360
our side was totally crammed
with people.
668
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,840
The other side of the court,
there were just two people.
669
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,320
They knew what was gonna happen,
670
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,880
they knew which way this judgement
was going to land, and it did.
671
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,080
Mr Justice Fraser's
Horizon Issues judgement:
672
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,080
"This approach by the Post Office
673
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,840
"has amounted, in reality,
to bear assertions and denials..."
674
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,120
"..that ignore
what has actually occurred."
675
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,400
"It amounts to
the 21st-century equivalent
676
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,480
"of maintaining
that the Earth is flat."
677
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,520
[SHE GIGGLES]
Good old Justice Fraser.
678
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,720
The judge said there seemed
to be a culture of secrecy
679
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:35,160
and excessive confidentially
within the Post Office.
680
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,400
[THEY CHEER]
681
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,360
We couldn't be more happy
with the judgement from the court.
682
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,520
This has been the result
of many years' work
683
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,160
to achieve justice
for over 550 people.
684
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,800
It was overwhelming. It was utterly,
utterly damning of Post Office,
685
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,960
and it just vindicated everything
we'd ever said about them.
686
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,960
The win was one of the best days
of my life.
687
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,720
The civil justice system in the UK
had got to the truth.
688
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,040
But the win came
at huge financial cost.
689
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:13,320
Although the Post Office agreed
to pay £57.5 million in damages,
690
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:14,840
after legal costs,
691
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,320
the subpostmasters were left
with around £20,000 each.
692
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:26,120
But the civil court win
did enable the subpostmasters
693
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,600
to appeal
their criminal convictions.
694
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,840
These subpostmasters have not only
had their convictions quashed,
695
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,200
but they've been exonerated
by the Court of Appeal.
696
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,800
I'm not a criminal any more,
I'm a victim.
697
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:48,200
To date,
93 out of 736 subpostmasters
698
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,640
have had their names cleared.
699
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,400
The sun was shining, and I was free.
700
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,320
REPORTER: How do you feel now?
Very happy.
701
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,080
At last, you could go home
and tell people you were innocent.
702
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,760
That emotion will...
703
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,080
It was like lifting
that big rucksack
704
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,920
with rocks on your back for years,
and getting rid of it.
705
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,480
Thank you, all.
Let him through, please.
706
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,960
You know,
you could just throw it away.
707
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,080
It was such a big, big relief,
708
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,320
cos the Post Office did a lot
of damage, really, to him.
709
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:44,120
It's something that we couldn't
fathom that was gonna happen to him.
710
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,200
I didn't have this many people
at my wedding.
711
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,520
But I'm seeing my dad coming back
now, you know, bit by bit.
712
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,200
So we are really grateful,
713
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,320
you know, that we've had this chance
to see that, cos not many have.
714
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:00,840
[CHEERING]
715
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,640
Well done. Well done.
716
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,960
God's got me through everything.
717
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,000
I just thought I wanted to
bring you here to show you as well.
718
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,880
I've built myself up.
719
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,120
I've made myself stronger,
720
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,360
and I want everybody to know
that I wasn't a thief.
721
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,480
I didn't rob the Post Office,
as they say.
722
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,240
That's what matters to me,
my name cleared.
723
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:38,880
And it needs to be told.
Our stories do need to be out there.
724
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,040
It's not just...
725
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,520
a little group of people,
it's hundreds.
726
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,760
Hundreds of people
have been through this.
727
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,960
Everybody ready?
728
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:05,160
A statutory inquiry has been set up
to find out what went wrong.
729
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,200
Would you not remember
something that significant?
730
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,800
I'm afraid I don't.
731
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,800
I'm sorry, I don't have
an awful lot of memory on that.
732
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,880
I don't remember that at all.
733
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,920
I know who should be
held to account.
734
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:25,880
I mean, it's the people
who have had a very cushy lifestyle
735
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,880
on vast quantities of money,
736
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:37,760
whilst they've made hundreds, if not
thousands of individuals suffer,
737
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,040
whilst knowing the real truth
of what's been going on
738
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,160
and denying the truth
to all these individuals.
739
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,680
Those are the people
who should be held responsible.
740
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,480
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