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[dark, mysterious music plays]
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[tense music plays]
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[sombre piano music plays]
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[tram bell dings]
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[interviewer] Okay.
Let's start with the easy stuff.
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[sighs]
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[interviewer] Do you have a photo
of your mum - Carolyn?
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Sure.
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This is my mum - Carolyn.
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I remember looking at it and being
like, "I wonder if she was happy."
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I knew that every person
that I ever met
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was eventually going to ask me...
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where my mum was.
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And... I dreaded it.
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Because I didn't
want to have to explain
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the whole situation.
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I felt a lot of shame around it.
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Just having to deal with
other people's reactions
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or responses or opinions,
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or hold their anger,
confusion, disgust, pain,
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surprise, awkwardness,
or their silence.
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Sometimes I would make things up.
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Would just say a different...
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cause of death, um,
that seemed, like, simpler.
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It was somewhere between
"I don't want to talk about it"
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and just lying
about the way she died.
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But the truth is...
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my dad killed my mum.
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I was three months old.
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My life was just always
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in the shadow
of this horrible tragedy.
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Because I was never told anything,
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I've always wanted to know
what happened,
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how it happened, why it happened.
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To keep knowing until
somehow I can make it better.
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I would never want this
to happen to anybody.
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But...
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I am who I am because of it.
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[dark music swells]
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Mm-hm.
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I came to know Carolyn
probably about two...
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well, about two years
before all of this happened.
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Uh, my name is Jill Brodie.
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Um, I met Carolyn
when I was in my late twenties.
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Um, and she was a wonderful teacher.
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Amazing musician. Kind.
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And, of course, physically,
she was so beautiful.
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My name's Vicki Sheaffe.
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I was a good friend of Carolyn Stuckey
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in our late twenties, early thirties.
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Um, and now I'm sitting here at 71.
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[woman] Yeah, we got scholarships
to go to teachers' college
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and we developed
a very strong friendship.
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We just clicked.
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She was teaching
our children at the time.
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And they had known her
all their short lives
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and were very fond of her.
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I can remember my son aged five
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saying, "I love Mrs Stuckey, Mum."
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You know? And he meant it.
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[Kathryn] I think she loved children.
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I think, you know, you probably
don't become a school teacher
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if you don't love children.
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She says, "I'm going to go
into Miss Lismore."
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And I thought, "Oh, good on you!"
You know?
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And the next thing, she's in the paper
and she's won!
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This one...
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is where she was announced Miss Lismore.
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And there's Jacki Weaver down there
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with some guys going, "Heh, heh, heh,"
in the background.
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It was a big thing. It was real
prestigious to be, you know, Miss Lismore.
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Oh, yeah. It was special.
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So, yeah, she would've been
easily recognisable.
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Definitely.
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She was the sort of woman
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that people would turn around
and look at.
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But she was oblivious
to her beauty.
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She was oblivious to the effect
she had on people.
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[Anne] I was with Carolyn
at the Lismore Workers Club
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and it was a Wednesday night
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when she met her husband -
Allan Stuckey.
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I don't know whether
he owned the pharmacy,
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but he was certainly the principal
in the pharmacy in Lismore.
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And he was eight years older.
So he was well placed.
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We were only 18. You know?
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We're going, "Who's this dude?"
You know?
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"Who's this dude coming over here?"
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She was there for the picking,
wasn't she?
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She's a pretty little thing,
big blue eyes, blonde hair.
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Easily...
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easily won over, I would say.
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This one is, um, the two of them
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and my dad's sister,
uh, at their wedding.
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I mean, the first thing I think is...
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those sideburns
were quite a statement.
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[laughs] Um...
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Yeah, I mean, look,
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it's a bit strange to look at
wedding photos of them.
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There's a lot of, like,
hope and promise in that moment
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of a future that...
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would look a lot different
than it turned out to look.
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Um...
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[Vicki] Her marriage to Allan Stuckey,
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they just didn't, to me,
and to a lot of people,
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didn't seem to... mash together.
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He was into tennis in a big way.
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But, yeah,
that wasn't her thing at all. No.
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She was more literary and arty
and music and... You know?
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Different.
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Yeah, they were
chalk and cheese, really,
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when you analyse it like that.
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The Lismore Theatre Club
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was a very kind of vibrant community.
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I think it was a place where
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a lot of people could kind of
have some fun
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and have this social connection.
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Most of our friends at that time
belonged to the Theatre Club.
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[Jill] And Carolyn had never
previously been in the Theatre Club.
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But I think she envied the fun we had.
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And so she auditioned.
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Is it cold being a ghost?
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No, I don't think so.
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What happens if I touch you?
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I doubt if you can.
Do you want to?
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Oh, Elvira!
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[Kathryn] 'Blithe Spirit' is a play
written by Noel Coward.
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It's about a man who is haunted
by the ghost of his dead wife.
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The ghost is played by my mum - Carolyn.
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You are here, aren't you?
You're not an illusion?
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I may be an illusion,
but I'm most definitely here.
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[Kathryn] And her husband
is played by Allen Ennew.
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You must promise me that in future
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you'll only come and talk to me
when I'm alone.
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[man] My dear Madame Arcati.
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[woman] I'm afraid I'm rather late.
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[Kathryn] And also in this play
was Allen's wife, Madeline,
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who is playing a psychic.
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I may have to go into a slight trance,
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but if I do, pay no attention.
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[sombre music plays]
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[exhales heavily]
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[Clare] The last time I was here
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was when 'Blithe Spirit'
was a production.
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Mmm. There's Dad.
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It's a very typical
'Dad in Theatre Club' look.
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There's Mum.
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You know, my dad loved this place.
He loved acting.
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And Mum did too. She was a good actor.
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There's the program there.
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Who's in it.
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00:10:21,821 --> 00:10:23,481
And then...
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a bunch of photos, so...
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It's this one.
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There's a couple like this,
with Dad and Carolyn.
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Just this moment caught
where they're looking at each other
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and I just go, "Yeah."
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You know, that's the sort of vibe
that my mum would've got hold of.
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Because the emotions were real, right?
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They weren't just acting.
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[Kathryn] I don't know all the details
of what went on there.
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But definitely a relationship
was developing
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and a friendship and an attraction.
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The silliest thing I ever did
in my whole life was to love you.
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[Jill] They say a grand passion
is like an insanity,
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and it was for both of them.
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I came because the power
of Charles's love
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tugged and tugged and tugged at me.
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Didn't it, my sweet?
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Yes, there was a lot of
sneaking around,
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which happens in an affair.
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But lots of presents
and flowers and gifts.
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I did have to keep a secret.
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I could see how happy they both were.
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I mean, I cared deeply
for Madeline as well,
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so that was very difficult.
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[Jill] The risks that Allen Ennew
and Carolyn took,
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the notes that were left on the
telegraph pole at the end of the road,
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on her car...
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I saw one at the supermarket
when I was there one day.
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Walked past her car
and there was one of these notes.
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[man] "My dearest, most precious Carolyn,
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"I love you."
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[woman] "You are a wonderful man.
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00:12:06,129 --> 00:12:10,389
"Kind, thoughtful, understanding."
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00:12:10,489 --> 00:12:13,148
[man] "I love the thoughts
of our ultimate togetherness,
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"which I now see as inevitable."
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Allen Ennew had moved out of his home
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00:12:19,168 --> 00:12:22,427
and had rented a little flat.
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00:12:22,527 --> 00:12:25,627
Madeline wasn't coping at all.
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00:12:25,727 --> 00:12:28,567
She lost a lot of weight very quickly.
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00:12:29,647 --> 00:12:33,286
[Jill] I remember one day she told me
she was going to kill herself.
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00:12:34,326 --> 00:12:36,426
I said, "Oh, you can't do that."
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00:12:36,526 --> 00:12:39,065
Her two boys were
at university in Sydney.
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00:12:39,165 --> 00:12:41,745
Her daughter, Clare, was 18.
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00:12:41,845 --> 00:12:44,225
She said she couldn't be jilted,
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00:12:44,325 --> 00:12:46,065
she couldn't be left on her own
197
00:12:46,165 --> 00:12:49,384
as someone left
for the younger person.
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00:12:49,484 --> 00:12:51,784
She couldn't deal
with that humiliation.
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00:12:51,884 --> 00:12:55,984
And I spoke to my GP, and he said
what people used to say in those days.
200
00:12:56,084 --> 00:12:59,663
He said, "Oh, if they talk about it,
they don't do it."
201
00:12:59,763 --> 00:13:02,663
And he was a well-meaning man,
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00:13:02,763 --> 00:13:05,303
but that was wrong.
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00:13:05,403 --> 00:13:07,182
Allen found the body.
204
00:13:07,282 --> 00:13:10,902
And she'd organised
so that Clare wasn't home that night.
205
00:13:11,002 --> 00:13:15,421
And, sure enough,
everything in the house was tip-top.
206
00:13:15,521 --> 00:13:18,721
Food was made for her own funeral.
207
00:13:19,321 --> 00:13:21,321
[sniffles]
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00:13:22,481 --> 00:13:26,380
In her letter to me,
'cause she wrote suicide letters,
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00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,060
she told me not to blame my father,
and, honestly, I don't.
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00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,499
I don't blame anyone in this story.
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00:13:33,599 --> 00:13:39,699
It's just really hard
being the child of that story.
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00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:41,798
You know?
213
00:13:42,198 --> 00:13:45,738
It's all very tragic
to think about the fact
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00:13:45,838 --> 00:13:49,817
that these two women in this play
are now dead,
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00:13:49,917 --> 00:13:52,037
and the ways that they died.
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00:13:56,997 --> 00:14:00,816
Carolyn was...
she was devastated by it
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00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:03,336
and felt incredible guilt.
218
00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:05,976
I would say that Allen Ennew,
219
00:14:06,076 --> 00:14:08,575
he was very sad about Madeline
220
00:14:08,675 --> 00:14:11,135
and it was a traumatic
and hideous thing that happened
221
00:14:11,235 --> 00:14:13,235
and he found her.
222
00:14:13,795 --> 00:14:16,094
But he was so obsessed
223
00:14:16,194 --> 00:14:18,814
with the fact that one day
Carolyn would come to him,
224
00:14:18,914 --> 00:14:21,534
and so he bought this big house.
225
00:14:21,634 --> 00:14:23,694
That was going to be the home
with lots of bedrooms
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00:14:23,794 --> 00:14:25,013
so that they could have
227
00:14:25,113 --> 00:14:27,333
all their children there
eventually at times.
228
00:14:27,433 --> 00:14:28,653
That was his idea.
229
00:14:28,753 --> 00:14:30,493
No one wanted to be divorced.
230
00:14:30,593 --> 00:14:32,333
No one wanted
to leave their husband.
231
00:14:32,433 --> 00:14:35,652
Because there was a lot of stigma
in the community.
232
00:14:35,752 --> 00:14:39,092
Not today,
but back in the '70s, dead right.
233
00:14:39,192 --> 00:14:40,572
And '80s.
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00:14:40,672 --> 00:14:42,372
If she left the marriage,
235
00:14:42,472 --> 00:14:48,971
she was concerned what, I guess,
the parents of her students, the church...
236
00:14:49,071 --> 00:14:51,690
She felt enormous shame
237
00:14:51,790 --> 00:14:54,210
for going against
what she'd been taught
238
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:56,250
as far as her religion was concerned.
239
00:14:56,350 --> 00:15:00,249
Religion was a big part
of growing up in the '50s and '60s.
240
00:15:00,349 --> 00:15:02,129
Huge. You know? Everybody.
241
00:15:02,229 --> 00:15:04,469
It was rare for a family
not to go to church.
242
00:15:07,029 --> 00:15:10,208
[Jill] When she told us
that Allan Stuckey had found out,
243
00:15:10,308 --> 00:15:12,728
I thought, "Right, now,
something will happen now.
244
00:15:12,828 --> 00:15:15,768
"Either she will stay with him
or she'll go with Allen Ennew."
245
00:15:15,868 --> 00:15:19,367
But at least it's not this
terrible, dangerous game
246
00:15:19,467 --> 00:15:21,467
that they were still playing.
247
00:15:22,947 --> 00:15:25,287
[man] "You've distanced yourself
and made me resentful
248
00:15:25,387 --> 00:15:27,586
"by taunting me with Allen Ennew.
249
00:15:28,666 --> 00:15:30,686
"If you do not love me,
250
00:15:30,786 --> 00:15:34,426
"then I cannot go on
to even try to work things out."
251
00:15:35,705 --> 00:15:38,805
My mum decided to stay with my dad.
252
00:15:38,905 --> 00:15:42,925
And he made her swear on the Bible
253
00:15:43,025 --> 00:15:45,864
and he wrote vows for her to take.
254
00:15:49,544 --> 00:15:54,283
[woman] "I swear never to say
or do anything again to hurt you."
255
00:15:54,383 --> 00:15:59,103
"I swear never to lie
to my husband Allan ever again."
256
00:16:00,263 --> 00:16:04,122
"I swear that the affair
is over completely
257
00:16:04,222 --> 00:16:07,762
"and that I will never
do anything directly or indirectly
258
00:16:07,862 --> 00:16:11,441
"to have any type
of relationship with him again.
259
00:16:11,541 --> 00:16:16,161
"I swear to love, honour
and cherish you
260
00:16:16,261 --> 00:16:18,261
"for the rest of my days."
261
00:16:19,301 --> 00:16:23,680
I asked her if she was
worried for her own safety.
262
00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:26,040
And she said no. No.
263
00:16:26,140 --> 00:16:30,739
She said, "I'm not. But I am worried
what he might do to Allen Ennew."
264
00:16:32,139 --> 00:16:34,759
[man] "Allen, if you
should have any thoughts
265
00:16:34,859 --> 00:16:36,999
"of trying to rekindle the relationship
266
00:16:37,099 --> 00:16:39,478
"or even getting in touch with her
in any way,
267
00:16:39,578 --> 00:16:43,218
"then I will tell you now
you will join your wife."
268
00:16:45,578 --> 00:16:48,277
[Vicki] But she was very unhappy.
269
00:16:48,377 --> 00:16:51,797
She... Well, she'd just had a baby.
270
00:16:51,897 --> 00:16:53,897
Um...
271
00:16:54,457 --> 00:16:56,516
It must've been so stressful for her.
272
00:16:56,616 --> 00:16:59,016
And she had two little boys as well.
273
00:17:03,855 --> 00:17:06,035
[woman] "My darling Allen,
274
00:17:06,135 --> 00:17:09,875
"to choose to go to you
meant the disruption of a family,
275
00:17:09,975 --> 00:17:13,654
"gossip and talk about
the cause of Madeline's death.
276
00:17:15,614 --> 00:17:20,714
"To stay with Allan
meant unbearable pain for you.
277
00:17:20,814 --> 00:17:23,033
"For me, it meant an ache inside
278
00:17:23,133 --> 00:17:27,533
"which I know will be with me
every day for the rest of my life."
279
00:17:28,893 --> 00:17:31,072
She'd supposedly
broken off with Allen Ennew,
280
00:17:31,172 --> 00:17:32,552
it was over,
281
00:17:32,652 --> 00:17:34,352
suddenly she was seeing him again.
282
00:17:34,452 --> 00:17:39,951
And I said, "Allan Stuckey
will not let her go without a fight."
283
00:17:40,051 --> 00:17:41,711
We always knew
284
00:17:41,811 --> 00:17:47,670
that he was a man
who would not be able to accept it.
285
00:17:47,770 --> 00:17:50,330
Like a lot of people, I suppose.
286
00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:55,990
And then he puts
a private detective on her? Good God!
287
00:17:56,090 --> 00:18:00,989
She thought Allan Stuckey
had, um, been having her followed.
288
00:18:01,089 --> 00:18:03,749
I think she said
a "little grey Volkswagen".
289
00:18:03,849 --> 00:18:05,848
"I think I'm being followed."
290
00:18:06,488 --> 00:18:10,788
Um, to which I just thought,
"Oh, my God, where's that gonna go?"
291
00:18:10,888 --> 00:18:14,267
There's absolutely no excuse
for that behaviour.
292
00:18:14,367 --> 00:18:16,707
Monitoring someone's movements
293
00:18:16,807 --> 00:18:20,347
is a huge indicator of family violence,
of coercive control.
294
00:18:20,447 --> 00:18:23,226
I find it really disturbing
that he did that.
295
00:18:23,326 --> 00:18:26,366
That he felt justified in doing that.
296
00:18:40,565 --> 00:18:42,184
[man] "My darling,
297
00:18:42,284 --> 00:18:46,264
"I'm going to ask you again
for the complete peace of mind -
298
00:18:46,364 --> 00:18:50,023
"have you had any contact
since your vows?
299
00:18:50,123 --> 00:18:55,503
"I beg you, I implore you,
do not tell me a lie."
300
00:18:55,603 --> 00:18:59,602
"It is the most important question
you will ever answer."
301
00:19:01,642 --> 00:19:04,682
"All I know is
I love you more than anything.
302
00:19:05,642 --> 00:19:07,641
"Allan."
303
00:19:10,281 --> 00:19:14,981
I happened to be in the station
on 31st January 1985
304
00:19:15,081 --> 00:19:18,820
when the phone rang, and I answered it.
305
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,580
There was a male voice
on the other end of the phone.
306
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,540
Very calmly said,
307
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:30,339
"It's Allan Stuckey from 5 Banksia Court,
Lismore Heights."
308
00:19:30,439 --> 00:19:33,259
And I said,
"Yes, Allan, how can we help you?"
309
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,178
And he said, "You'd better come up.
I've just shot my wife."
310
00:19:38,278 --> 00:19:40,818
You know, when you did your training
at the Police Academy
311
00:19:40,918 --> 00:19:43,297
one of the things
that I do remember very clearly
312
00:19:43,397 --> 00:19:45,737
that they instilled in young police
313
00:19:45,837 --> 00:19:50,497
was that domestic violence incidents,
attending those
314
00:19:50,597 --> 00:19:53,596
was the most dangerous situation
that we would go to.
315
00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:59,056
Of course, you know, I was anxious
316
00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:01,455
approaching the house
under those circumstances.
317
00:20:01,555 --> 00:20:04,415
And, you know, we went into the house
318
00:20:04,515 --> 00:20:08,575
and Allan Stuckey was sitting
in the kitchen at a bench.
319
00:20:08,675 --> 00:20:14,654
He was just sitting there calmly,
sipping coffee from a mug
320
00:20:14,754 --> 00:20:17,134
as though nothing had happened.
321
00:20:17,234 --> 00:20:19,913
It was... Yeah, it was quite surreal.
322
00:20:25,073 --> 00:20:30,652
I walked into the main bedroom
and there was a double bed to the right.
323
00:20:30,752 --> 00:20:36,291
At the foot of the bed
was a female person.
324
00:20:36,391 --> 00:20:39,931
It was quite shocking, obviously,
what had happened, to start with,
325
00:20:40,031 --> 00:20:42,531
but also having the, you know,
326
00:20:42,631 --> 00:20:45,650
the three children in the house
at the time.
327
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:47,970
And... yeah.
328
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:55,009
By good fortune, perhaps,
nothing happened to them at the time.
329
00:20:55,109 --> 00:20:58,409
I was teaching
down the other end of the peninsula here.
330
00:20:58,509 --> 00:21:01,449
Out on the playground on duty
and my husband pulled up.
331
00:21:01,549 --> 00:21:03,048
I said, "What are you doing here?"
332
00:21:03,148 --> 00:21:06,568
He said, "Oh, I've got
some terrible news to tell you."
333
00:21:06,668 --> 00:21:10,328
I turned the radio on. Next to the bed.
334
00:21:10,428 --> 00:21:12,607
And it said, uh...
335
00:21:12,707 --> 00:21:18,527
that a 32-year-old Lismore woman
had been shot dead overnight.
336
00:21:18,627 --> 00:21:21,186
Police were at the scene in Goonellabah.
337
00:21:22,146 --> 00:21:24,146
And we knew.
338
00:21:25,666 --> 00:21:28,085
It was fairly hysterical in our house.
There was...
339
00:21:28,185 --> 00:21:30,005
We were incredibly upset.
340
00:21:30,105 --> 00:21:32,325
Allan had killed Carolyn.
341
00:21:32,425 --> 00:21:36,405
And, as a child, I just had no concept
342
00:21:36,505 --> 00:21:39,564
of what that... how that could happen.
343
00:21:39,664 --> 00:21:41,364
I can still remember the feeling
344
00:21:41,464 --> 00:21:45,723
and thinking, "Oh, my God,
I could've stopped this."
345
00:21:45,823 --> 00:21:50,523
That was something I think
a lot of people thought.
346
00:21:50,623 --> 00:21:53,043
In a case like that, a murder,
347
00:21:53,143 --> 00:21:56,722
or an unlawful killing of someone,
348
00:21:56,822 --> 00:21:59,882
we call out the detectives,
they come to the scene,
349
00:21:59,982 --> 00:22:02,042
they take over the investigation.
350
00:22:02,142 --> 00:22:06,361
The lead investigator
was Detective Sergeant Don Cuell.
351
00:22:06,461 --> 00:22:08,961
Senior Constable Will Palmer
rang me at home.
352
00:22:09,061 --> 00:22:14,520
Told me that there'd been a shooting
and a lady was deceased.
353
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:17,120
We, uh, went back to the police station
354
00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:20,120
where he was interviewed
in the presence of his solicitor.
355
00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:22,279
Given some of the answers and whatnot,
356
00:22:22,379 --> 00:22:27,399
I'd say that he'd ran through
a lot of the possible situations
357
00:22:27,499 --> 00:22:29,199
with his solicitor prior.
358
00:22:29,299 --> 00:22:31,278
Which he's entitled to do.
359
00:22:31,378 --> 00:22:33,758
[policeman] For the information
of this record of interview,
360
00:22:33,858 --> 00:22:35,318
what is your full name?
361
00:22:35,418 --> 00:22:37,158
[man] Allan James Stuckey.
362
00:22:37,258 --> 00:22:39,717
I had reason to doubt her fidelity,
363
00:22:39,817 --> 00:22:43,117
and I engaged a private investigator
to check her movements.
364
00:22:43,217 --> 00:22:44,877
[policeman] Can you tell me
what happened?
365
00:22:44,977 --> 00:22:47,876
[man] She admitted that she had been
with Allen Ennew on that day.
366
00:22:47,976 --> 00:22:49,596
She said she couldn't give him up.
367
00:22:49,696 --> 00:22:51,036
[policeman] What did you do?
368
00:22:51,136 --> 00:22:54,516
[man] I took the rifle from my study
and raced back to the bedroom.
369
00:22:54,616 --> 00:22:57,195
She screamed
and grabbed the barrel of the rifle
370
00:22:57,295 --> 00:22:58,635
and we struggled.
371
00:22:58,735 --> 00:23:00,195
Shots were fired.
372
00:23:00,295 --> 00:23:01,995
[policeman] When did you load this rifle?
373
00:23:02,095 --> 00:23:04,675
[man] I was going to shoot
a flying fox a couple of months ago,
374
00:23:04,775 --> 00:23:05,994
and that's when.
375
00:23:06,094 --> 00:23:07,954
[policeman]
Did you leave the magazine loaded
376
00:23:08,054 --> 00:23:11,034
with live cartridges in this rifle
in your study?
377
00:23:11,134 --> 00:23:13,394
[man] Yes, but it was
right back behind the bed
378
00:23:13,494 --> 00:23:15,753
so that it's not easy
for anybody to get at.
379
00:23:15,853 --> 00:23:17,313
[policeman] What happened then?
380
00:23:17,413 --> 00:23:19,473
[man] I had a shower
and tried to compose my mind
381
00:23:19,573 --> 00:23:21,993
and work out
if I should kill myself or not.
382
00:23:22,093 --> 00:23:25,872
I rang my sister to ask her
to come and collect my children
383
00:23:25,972 --> 00:23:28,672
and it occurred to me that
there was a debt that I hadn't paid,
384
00:23:28,772 --> 00:23:30,712
and that was to the private investigator.
385
00:23:30,812 --> 00:23:34,791
And I rang his residence to tell him
that his money was in the work safe.
386
00:23:34,891 --> 00:23:37,831
I didn't want to feel
that I had left some money owing.
387
00:23:37,931 --> 00:23:39,511
[policeman] You have explained to us
388
00:23:39,611 --> 00:23:41,790
your wife's affair
with the person Allen Ennew.
389
00:23:41,890 --> 00:23:45,750
Is that the only reason you can give us
for this shooting having taken place?
390
00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:48,310
[man] Yes.
And considerations allied to it, yes.
391
00:23:48,410 --> 00:23:52,389
[policeman] Is there anything further you
wish to say in relation to this matter?
392
00:23:52,489 --> 00:23:55,769
[man] Just that the affair
has been going on for two years.
393
00:23:56,489 --> 00:23:58,488
That's all.
394
00:24:01,728 --> 00:24:04,388
[Kathryn] I was three months old.
395
00:24:04,488 --> 00:24:07,987
My brothers were four and eight.
396
00:24:08,087 --> 00:24:12,027
And to have the children
in the house when he did it.
397
00:24:12,127 --> 00:24:16,106
I mean...
you can't imagine that scene.
398
00:24:16,206 --> 00:24:19,786
I don't think you can make sense of it.
It's unforgivable.
399
00:24:19,886 --> 00:24:21,706
Should never have happened.
400
00:24:21,806 --> 00:24:23,906
Um...
401
00:24:24,006 --> 00:24:25,385
I mean,
402
00:24:25,485 --> 00:24:28,865
the type of thing that was going on
happens all the time.
403
00:24:28,965 --> 00:24:31,105
People don't die for it.
404
00:24:31,205 --> 00:24:36,724
After he was charged with murder,
Allan Stuckey was bailed.
405
00:24:37,524 --> 00:24:40,704
The reason he would've got bail is
because of his standing in the community.
406
00:24:40,804 --> 00:24:44,063
He was a chemist. No prior convictions.
407
00:24:44,163 --> 00:24:47,983
His young children were still there
and he's not gonna decamp.
408
00:24:48,083 --> 00:24:52,742
So Stuckey got bail.
Went back to work, I think.
409
00:24:52,842 --> 00:24:55,382
Well, my dad was charged with murder.
410
00:24:55,482 --> 00:24:56,862
Um...
411
00:24:56,962 --> 00:25:00,581
But the trial
wasn't for a year and a half.
412
00:25:00,681 --> 00:25:02,901
It was quite surprising to me, I think,
413
00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,661
when I realised that
414
00:25:05,761 --> 00:25:10,040
my brothers and I were at home
with my dad a lot of that time.
415
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:15,820
He was able to get out,
resume a normal life
416
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,619
with his children,
with his three young children,
417
00:25:18,719 --> 00:25:21,499
back in his house
in Lismore Heights
418
00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:26,378
and go back as a practising pharmacist
of all things.
419
00:25:26,478 --> 00:25:30,058
Despite the fact
that he had killed Carolyn
420
00:25:30,158 --> 00:25:35,977
he still had the legal right
to dispose of her body as her husband.
421
00:25:36,077 --> 00:25:40,657
And he just simply
had her cremated instantly
422
00:25:40,757 --> 00:25:43,017
with no ceremony.
423
00:25:43,117 --> 00:25:49,936
And nobody had a chance to recognise
424
00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:54,095
what had happened
or to say goodbye to her.
425
00:25:54,195 --> 00:25:57,315
It was just as though
she'd been put out with the rubbish.
426
00:25:58,075 --> 00:26:03,094
I've always wanted to know
everything about it.
427
00:26:03,194 --> 00:26:05,414
You know, like,
everything surrounding it.
428
00:26:05,514 --> 00:26:08,254
And I've always wanted to know
429
00:26:08,354 --> 00:26:10,653
what happened, how it happened,
430
00:26:10,753 --> 00:26:12,753
why it happened.
431
00:26:16,353 --> 00:26:19,872
That's been a lifelong journey.
432
00:26:23,112 --> 00:26:28,211
I want to understand
where we were and where I was
433
00:26:28,311 --> 00:26:30,291
and what happened afterwards,
434
00:26:30,391 --> 00:26:33,271
and why the decisions that were made
were made.
435
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:44,210
So, part of it is just wanting to know
about my own life
436
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:48,029
and know information
and put those puzzle pieces together.
437
00:26:52,469 --> 00:26:55,188
[woman] So, this is the trial transcript.
438
00:26:58,948 --> 00:27:02,208
And are you feeling okay
about looking at it now?
439
00:27:02,308 --> 00:27:04,767
I am.
I feel a little bit nervous about it.
440
00:27:04,867 --> 00:27:06,807
- Mmm.
- Um... I don't know.
441
00:27:06,907 --> 00:27:09,167
There's a part of me
that sort of wants information
442
00:27:09,267 --> 00:27:11,247
and, like, sort of wants to look at it
443
00:27:11,347 --> 00:27:14,966
and then a part of me that finds it
quite, you know, upsetting.
444
00:27:15,066 --> 00:27:16,726
- Absolutely.
- So, um...
445
00:27:16,826 --> 00:27:18,926
So, in this trial
446
00:27:19,026 --> 00:27:24,845
your father argued
that he acted in response to provocation.
447
00:27:24,945 --> 00:27:28,965
The provocation in this case
was said to be
448
00:27:29,065 --> 00:27:32,804
that Carolyn was having an affair.
449
00:27:32,904 --> 00:27:39,123
They're arguing that a person's actions
contributed to their death.
450
00:27:39,223 --> 00:27:40,203
Yeah.
451
00:27:40,303 --> 00:27:44,203
The provocation defence
is actually a partial defence.
452
00:27:44,303 --> 00:27:49,562
It will reduce your culpability
from murder to manslaughter.
453
00:27:49,662 --> 00:27:54,082
The guideline of the provocation
and the evidence required
454
00:27:54,182 --> 00:27:58,161
is that it comes back to
what an ordinary person would do
455
00:27:58,261 --> 00:28:00,001
under those circumstances.
456
00:28:00,101 --> 00:28:01,881
So, in other words, you and I,
457
00:28:01,981 --> 00:28:06,920
would we react the same way
as Allan Stuckey acted
458
00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:08,840
given the circumstances?
459
00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:11,520
People's marriages break down.
460
00:28:11,620 --> 00:28:13,160
I'm a lawyer.
461
00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:16,799
And I hate being a family lawyer,
but somebody's gotta do it.
462
00:28:16,899 --> 00:28:19,599
And it happens all the time.
463
00:28:19,699 --> 00:28:22,698
But you don't turn around
and kill your spouse.
464
00:28:28,218 --> 00:28:29,918
[man 1] Your full name is?
465
00:28:30,018 --> 00:28:31,997
[man 2] William Arthur Barclay.
466
00:28:32,097 --> 00:28:35,197
A consultant psychiatrist
now in private practice.
467
00:28:35,297 --> 00:28:39,157
[man 1] Are you able to express an opinion
as to whether that conduct
468
00:28:39,257 --> 00:28:43,636
could have induced an ordinary person
to lose self-control
469
00:28:43,736 --> 00:28:45,956
in psychiatric terms?
470
00:28:46,056 --> 00:28:48,636
[man 2] Yes, I believe so.
471
00:28:48,736 --> 00:28:55,635
There was a certain element of, um,
if someone was wronged in that way
472
00:28:55,735 --> 00:28:59,154
then they could be excused
for not being able to control themselves.
473
00:28:59,254 --> 00:29:05,154
Does an ordinary person get a gun,
which is already in the house, loaded,
474
00:29:05,254 --> 00:29:07,773
with three young children in the place?
475
00:29:08,613 --> 00:29:10,393
Does an ordinary person do that?
476
00:29:10,493 --> 00:29:14,233
And does an ordinary person
shoot his wife?
477
00:29:14,333 --> 00:29:17,112
And does an ordinary person
have a shower,
478
00:29:17,212 --> 00:29:18,912
ring a friend, ring his solicitor?
479
00:29:19,012 --> 00:29:21,432
Does an ordinary person do that?
480
00:29:21,532 --> 00:29:24,192
The person that they've killed
is no longer able
481
00:29:24,292 --> 00:29:27,831
to give their side of the story
or talk about what they went through.
482
00:29:27,931 --> 00:29:30,591
- Mmm.
- It's very one sided.
483
00:29:30,691 --> 00:29:34,270
And it's highly critical of that person.
484
00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:37,550
And then at the same time
you also get people giving evidence
485
00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:41,510
about the positive characteristics
of the accused.
486
00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:43,349
[Kathryn] Yeah.
487
00:29:43,449 --> 00:29:45,389
[man] When you spoke to your brother,
488
00:29:45,489 --> 00:29:48,709
can you describe
how he appeared to you to be?
489
00:29:48,809 --> 00:29:50,549
[woman] Extremely upset.
490
00:29:50,649 --> 00:29:53,628
[man] What sort of person is your brother?
491
00:29:53,728 --> 00:29:56,228
[woman] A very serious minded,
492
00:29:56,328 --> 00:29:59,947
very moral, quiet, shy,
493
00:30:00,047 --> 00:30:02,307
very idealistic person.
494
00:30:02,407 --> 00:30:05,107
I also think very naive.
495
00:30:05,207 --> 00:30:07,707
[man] Is he a violent sort of person?
496
00:30:07,807 --> 00:30:10,266
[woman] No, no, not at all.
497
00:30:10,366 --> 00:30:13,546
He loved the children, he always has.
498
00:30:13,646 --> 00:30:18,345
[man] Did he ever express to you
the view he took of marriage?
499
00:30:18,445 --> 00:30:21,085
[woman] That marriage is a sacred thing.
500
00:30:23,125 --> 00:30:24,905
[Kathryn] It seemed so odd to me
501
00:30:25,005 --> 00:30:29,704
that none of her friends
got to speak for her, at least.
502
00:30:29,804 --> 00:30:31,544
Because she wasn't able to speak.
503
00:30:31,644 --> 00:30:35,543
So, it's like there were other people
who could've at least
504
00:30:35,643 --> 00:30:38,263
spoke to her character
505
00:30:38,363 --> 00:30:43,902
and given some indication
of what she was going through.
506
00:30:44,002 --> 00:30:45,382
I just... Yeah.
507
00:30:45,482 --> 00:30:49,102
Yeah, it becomes a very one-sided
sort of view of what happens
508
00:30:49,202 --> 00:30:50,622
in that situation.
509
00:30:50,722 --> 00:30:52,422
- Doesn't it?
- Yeah. Yeah.
510
00:30:52,522 --> 00:30:57,501
Sometimes the prosecution
could go much further
511
00:30:57,601 --> 00:30:59,381
in the way that they approach this
512
00:30:59,481 --> 00:31:01,261
and in trying to ask questions
513
00:31:01,361 --> 00:31:04,540
and get more information
about that context.
514
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,180
They don't always understand
the dynamics of family violence themselves
515
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,779
and the importance of it
516
00:31:11,879 --> 00:31:15,899
for understanding
what happens in domestic homicides.
517
00:31:15,999 --> 00:31:20,658
What we really needed in this trial
as far as the prosecution was concerned,
518
00:31:20,758 --> 00:31:23,018
we needed someone
that was going to get in there
519
00:31:23,118 --> 00:31:25,978
and fight like a bulldog
and shake their head and carry on.
520
00:31:26,078 --> 00:31:29,637
And unfortunately
we finished up with a golden retriever.
521
00:31:30,637 --> 00:31:33,857
I was appalled at the lack of prosecution.
522
00:31:33,957 --> 00:31:36,377
I mean, I remember
sitting in the back of the court
523
00:31:36,477 --> 00:31:38,696
and just thinking, "Oh, my God!"
524
00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:41,136
The worst thing
about trying to recover from this
525
00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:43,496
for all of us
526
00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:48,455
was that there was
so much shock and horror
527
00:31:48,555 --> 00:31:52,015
because she was this "scarlet woman".
528
00:31:52,115 --> 00:31:55,814
We would hear, indirectly,
529
00:31:55,914 --> 00:31:59,934
about the outrage, about what
this woman had done to this poor chap,
530
00:32:00,034 --> 00:32:03,533
not what this chap
had done to this poor woman.
531
00:32:03,633 --> 00:32:08,733
Yeah, I just think
there was this mind-set that...
532
00:32:08,833 --> 00:32:12,732
she's the villain in all this,
she's done the wrong thing.
533
00:32:12,832 --> 00:32:14,852
And, in a sense - I hate to say it -
534
00:32:14,952 --> 00:32:20,392
but some of those people, I'm sure,
think she got what she deserved.
535
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:40,169
[Deborah]
So there's quite a lot of evidence
536
00:32:40,269 --> 00:32:42,249
in relation to the ballistics,
537
00:32:42,349 --> 00:32:47,508
what sort of weapon was used
and how that weapon is operated.
538
00:32:50,988 --> 00:32:54,128
[Don] Carolyn was shot three times.
539
00:32:54,228 --> 00:32:56,447
Once in the abdomen, twice in the head.
540
00:32:56,547 --> 00:32:59,427
Oh. This one's gonna be really graphic.
541
00:33:04,027 --> 00:33:07,046
[Don] After the first shot,
she's wounded and lying on the floor.
542
00:33:07,146 --> 00:33:10,406
And she wouldn't have died from
that shot either, the doctors have said.
543
00:33:10,506 --> 00:33:14,325
Surely,
he should've realised what he's doing.
544
00:33:14,425 --> 00:33:18,085
Two more times he cocked that gun
and fired it again.
545
00:33:18,185 --> 00:33:21,565
And this is a bolt-action gun.
A bolt-action .22 rifle.
546
00:33:21,665 --> 00:33:24,964
So, it's not like a semi-automatic
where you just have to pull the trigger.
547
00:33:25,064 --> 00:33:31,643
There was a manual requirement
to reload that gun.
548
00:33:31,743 --> 00:33:34,983
Or you could probably just
do it like that. That's one. Bang!
549
00:33:35,783 --> 00:33:36,843
Two.
550
00:33:36,943 --> 00:33:40,262
It's a very deliberate action.
That's what I'm trying to say.
551
00:33:46,342 --> 00:33:48,842
[Deborah] Yeah, there is quite a lot
in the trial transcript
552
00:33:48,942 --> 00:33:52,681
about whereabouts in the house
the shooting occurred.
553
00:33:52,781 --> 00:33:56,881
There's a map that's been provided
as part of the evidence.
554
00:33:56,981 --> 00:33:59,740
Let's see that there.
555
00:34:00,780 --> 00:34:02,680
This was my bedroom.
556
00:34:02,780 --> 00:34:06,360
This is my dad's room still.
All the way through my life.
557
00:34:06,460 --> 00:34:10,939
I go into this room every day
that she was...
558
00:34:11,779 --> 00:34:13,959
you know, lying here dying.
559
00:34:14,059 --> 00:34:15,758
And just...
560
00:34:15,858 --> 00:34:19,178
- [Deborah] Yeah, that's horrible.
- Yeah. It's awful.
561
00:34:27,337 --> 00:34:31,077
[man] He was, undoubtedly, at all times
a man of exceptional character
562
00:34:31,177 --> 00:34:34,096
and obvious good standing
in the community.
563
00:34:35,096 --> 00:34:38,356
The prisoner's control of himself
over a lengthy period
564
00:34:38,456 --> 00:34:39,916
ultimately snapped
565
00:34:40,016 --> 00:34:43,475
when his wife told him
she could not give up her lover.
566
00:34:43,575 --> 00:34:45,195
In the circumstances,
567
00:34:45,295 --> 00:34:48,875
some response on his part
would not have been unreasonable.
568
00:34:48,975 --> 00:34:52,794
However,
to shoot the deceased three times
569
00:34:52,894 --> 00:34:56,994
was hardly proportionate
to the devastating verbal message.
570
00:34:57,094 --> 00:35:01,033
It was greater
than the circumstances warranted.
571
00:35:01,133 --> 00:35:06,033
In my view, the prisoner is unlikely
to again offend against the law.
572
00:35:06,133 --> 00:35:08,552
The prisoner's strong, subjective matters,
573
00:35:08,652 --> 00:35:10,472
unlike many other cases,
574
00:35:10,572 --> 00:35:14,072
provide the basis
for specifying a non-parole period
575
00:35:14,172 --> 00:35:15,912
which will give him the opportunity
576
00:35:16,012 --> 00:35:19,871
of resuming his life in the community
and with his children
577
00:35:19,971 --> 00:35:22,251
at a reasonably early time.
578
00:35:22,851 --> 00:35:25,191
Allan James Stuckey,
579
00:35:25,291 --> 00:35:28,590
on the charge
on which the jury has convicted you,
580
00:35:28,690 --> 00:35:32,670
I sentence you
to penal servitude for eight years.
581
00:35:32,770 --> 00:35:36,669
I specify a non-parole period
of three years.
582
00:35:36,769 --> 00:35:38,709
[hushed murmuring]
583
00:35:38,809 --> 00:35:40,789
"She, like, sort of made me do it.
584
00:35:40,889 --> 00:35:43,668
"She ran off... you know,
went off with another man."
585
00:35:43,768 --> 00:35:47,048
It was all, "Poor me, poor me,
I'm the victim here."
586
00:35:48,608 --> 00:35:52,408
Yeah, it makes me really furious, actually.
587
00:35:53,367 --> 00:35:57,387
I have difficulty reconciling the fact
588
00:35:57,487 --> 00:36:00,627
that this matter resulted in
a conviction for manslaughter.
589
00:36:00,727 --> 00:36:01,866
I really do.
590
00:36:01,966 --> 00:36:04,106
But, of course,
I have to accept the court's decision.
591
00:36:04,206 --> 00:36:06,406
That's the system of justice
that we have in this country.
592
00:36:06,886 --> 00:36:11,225
Even though we don't have
provocation defence available
593
00:36:11,325 --> 00:36:13,265
in most states in Australia anymore,
594
00:36:13,365 --> 00:36:17,305
we still see the same explanations
595
00:36:17,405 --> 00:36:21,304
for why men acted the way
they did in these cases.
596
00:36:21,404 --> 00:36:24,064
The provocation narrative
can still be used
597
00:36:24,164 --> 00:36:25,984
to understand their actions
598
00:36:26,084 --> 00:36:28,143
when they're considering sentencing.
599
00:36:28,243 --> 00:36:30,663
I asked him one time, like...
600
00:36:30,763 --> 00:36:33,543
said something about the fact
that he had never apologised to us.
601
00:36:33,643 --> 00:36:36,463
And he was, like,
"I don't owe you or anyone an apology."
602
00:36:36,563 --> 00:36:38,742
- [Deborah] Wow.
- Like...
603
00:36:38,842 --> 00:36:41,902
The absence of the impact on the children
604
00:36:42,002 --> 00:36:45,781
- is really striking as well.
- Yeah.
605
00:36:45,881 --> 00:36:50,061
It felt like a real sense of, like,
what's best for my father
606
00:36:50,161 --> 00:36:51,821
and really centred around him
607
00:36:51,921 --> 00:36:54,300
rather than thinking about us
608
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,340
and the long-term impacts
of the decisions that were made.
609
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,819
The actual conclusion of that drama
610
00:37:03,919 --> 00:37:08,559
was catastrophic
for the children especially.
611
00:37:24,357 --> 00:37:26,697
So these are, um, letters
612
00:37:26,797 --> 00:37:31,056
that my dad wrote me
when he was in prison.
613
00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:35,976
So I was probably about
two or three years old.
614
00:37:36,076 --> 00:37:38,555
Most of them are, um...
615
00:37:40,595 --> 00:37:45,215
...like, pictures of birds
that my dad has drawn.
616
00:37:45,315 --> 00:37:47,314
Or trees.
617
00:37:47,714 --> 00:37:49,014
"Dear Kathryn,
618
00:37:49,114 --> 00:37:52,414
"it is Sunday here as I'm writing this
and the weather is very poor.
619
00:37:52,514 --> 00:37:55,054
"There is a big fog all over the camp
620
00:37:55,154 --> 00:37:57,813
"and it is just so thick
it is almost like rain.
621
00:37:57,913 --> 00:37:59,893
"This is a kookaburra.
622
00:37:59,993 --> 00:38:02,413
"See his big, strong beak for eating meat.
623
00:38:02,513 --> 00:38:04,213
"Sometimes they eat snakes
624
00:38:04,313 --> 00:38:06,532
"and their song is just like a laugh.
625
00:38:06,632 --> 00:38:08,632
"Love, Dad."
626
00:38:17,431 --> 00:38:21,391
My father served 22 months
for killing my mother.
627
00:38:22,430 --> 00:38:26,490
On his release, my brothers and I
went back to live with him.
628
00:38:26,590 --> 00:38:28,830
I was about four years old.
629
00:38:31,669 --> 00:38:35,809
[Jan] I was appalled that he could
be given custody of the children.
630
00:38:35,909 --> 00:38:40,328
I cannot understand
how the court made an order
631
00:38:40,428 --> 00:38:43,388
that she was to live with her father.
632
00:38:44,628 --> 00:38:49,007
I really cannot understand that.
633
00:38:49,107 --> 00:38:53,507
So, this is a picture of me
in primary school.
634
00:38:54,747 --> 00:38:56,607
I excelled at school
635
00:38:56,707 --> 00:38:59,406
and I had a lot of friends
and I enjoyed it.
636
00:38:59,506 --> 00:39:04,286
But it felt like a different world
when I went home.
637
00:39:04,386 --> 00:39:06,685
I felt a real disconnect between
638
00:39:06,785 --> 00:39:11,265
what I was showing people
and what I was experiencing internally.
639
00:39:14,185 --> 00:39:17,584
I wasn't allowed to talk about my mother.
640
00:39:20,424 --> 00:39:24,083
There weren't photos.
There weren't stories.
641
00:39:24,183 --> 00:39:28,203
I didn't have any sense of who she was.
642
00:39:28,303 --> 00:39:31,023
Her name was never mentioned.
643
00:39:33,862 --> 00:39:35,762
The story that I was told
644
00:39:35,862 --> 00:39:40,402
was that she had done this awful thing,
645
00:39:40,502 --> 00:39:44,521
he had snapped and then he killed her
646
00:39:44,621 --> 00:39:49,261
and really framed
as this sort of accident.
647
00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:56,560
I feel like there was
a really significant shift
648
00:39:56,660 --> 00:39:59,000
in my relationship with my dad
649
00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:01,959
when I went to high school.
650
00:40:02,059 --> 00:40:07,619
I really felt like I'd become someone
that he really didn't like.
651
00:40:09,138 --> 00:40:13,238
Where there was this sense
of, like, entitlement and control
652
00:40:13,338 --> 00:40:16,158
and that if you step outside
of this little box
653
00:40:16,258 --> 00:40:18,397
that he's kind of put you in,
654
00:40:18,497 --> 00:40:21,077
then you become
this huge disappointment
655
00:40:21,177 --> 00:40:23,217
and you're uncontrollable.
656
00:40:26,736 --> 00:40:30,236
I knew that I had to be a certain way,
657
00:40:30,336 --> 00:40:34,076
show that I was fine,
658
00:40:34,176 --> 00:40:36,175
even if I was suffering.
659
00:40:38,855 --> 00:40:43,335
Feeling like at any moment
love will be withdrawn.
660
00:40:46,294 --> 00:40:48,954
I just remember
bumping into her one day
661
00:40:49,054 --> 00:40:50,554
and I knew it was her birthday
662
00:40:50,654 --> 00:40:53,153
and I took her around to the cafe
and we had an ice chocolate
663
00:40:53,253 --> 00:40:55,253
and we had a chat.
664
00:40:56,333 --> 00:40:59,713
She told me that she understood
665
00:40:59,813 --> 00:41:04,472
that her mother
was leaving her and the boys.
666
00:41:04,572 --> 00:41:07,272
And I just said, "No, that's not true."
667
00:41:07,372 --> 00:41:09,372
[inhales deeply]
668
00:41:12,171 --> 00:41:15,391
[tearfully] That's what her father
had told her.
669
00:41:15,491 --> 00:41:17,491
Um...
670
00:41:18,051 --> 00:41:20,050
And I told her...
671
00:41:22,650 --> 00:41:25,870
...that there was no way
her mother would've left her.
672
00:41:25,970 --> 00:41:29,469
And the lies that she'd been told
673
00:41:29,569 --> 00:41:33,449
were just... not right.
674
00:41:35,289 --> 00:41:41,068
When I was 16,
I needed to get my passport.
675
00:41:41,168 --> 00:41:43,288
And I needed
to get a death certificate.
676
00:41:44,768 --> 00:41:47,267
And so it was the first time
I actually had seen
677
00:41:47,367 --> 00:41:49,587
her cause of death, like, written down.
678
00:41:49,687 --> 00:41:53,107
Which was something like "the effects
of a gunshot wound to the head".
679
00:41:53,207 --> 00:41:58,106
Which was incredibly confronting
for me at 16
680
00:41:58,206 --> 00:42:00,946
because nobody
had ever said that to me.
681
00:42:01,046 --> 00:42:04,105
They hadn't actually said, like,
"This is how she died."
682
00:42:04,205 --> 00:42:07,665
I remember that feeling
of reading that death certificate
683
00:42:07,765 --> 00:42:11,944
and being really shocked at,
I guess, the bluntness of it.
684
00:42:12,044 --> 00:42:15,424
But just also that
that was what it was.
685
00:42:15,524 --> 00:42:17,544
You know? Um...
686
00:42:17,644 --> 00:42:21,863
That my dad had shot her in the head.
687
00:42:21,963 --> 00:42:28,043
That knowledge made me realise
that I was unsafe, actually.
688
00:42:29,083 --> 00:42:31,142
Like, physically unsafe.
689
00:42:31,242 --> 00:42:34,742
And it's not...
It's like I felt that before.
690
00:42:34,842 --> 00:42:38,861
But I had this example
of like how far he could go.
691
00:42:38,961 --> 00:42:41,841
I felt scared of my dad at that time.
692
00:42:43,841 --> 00:42:46,061
And what he could do.
693
00:42:46,161 --> 00:42:48,980
Because I was also just living
on my own with him at that point.
694
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,660
My brothers had left home.
695
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,779
And I think, why didn't anyone else,
why didn't the adults, you know,
696
00:42:55,879 --> 00:42:58,619
ask some questions, check in?
697
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,179
All of those things.
698
00:43:00,279 --> 00:43:05,058
It's not like people didn't know
that that was fucking strange.
699
00:43:05,158 --> 00:43:06,738
That was a weird thing
700
00:43:06,838 --> 00:43:09,938
that we were growing up
in the house that our mother was killed
701
00:43:10,038 --> 00:43:12,038
with the man that killed her.
702
00:43:15,077 --> 00:43:19,417
I think there was an assumption
that everything was fine.
703
00:43:19,517 --> 00:43:21,217
Everyone wanted it to be fine.
704
00:43:21,317 --> 00:43:24,456
So I thought, "Well, if I'm not fine,
705
00:43:24,556 --> 00:43:27,356
"then something's wrong with me,
not them."
706
00:43:29,316 --> 00:43:33,255
I started having nightmares
about her death.
707
00:43:33,355 --> 00:43:38,415
Like, very graphic nightmares
about, um, her being shot
708
00:43:38,515 --> 00:43:40,514
in this house that I was living in.
709
00:43:41,354 --> 00:43:43,894
And it was also just, like,
my everyday house.
710
00:43:43,994 --> 00:43:47,094
You know, like, come home from school
and make myself a snack
711
00:43:47,194 --> 00:43:50,893
and, you know, sometimes
I would watch something with my dad
712
00:43:50,993 --> 00:43:52,973
and it was funny and we'd laugh and...
713
00:43:53,073 --> 00:43:54,653
It was just my life.
714
00:43:54,753 --> 00:43:59,292
And it was also terrifying at times.
715
00:43:59,392 --> 00:44:01,392
Yeah.
716
00:44:09,871 --> 00:44:12,731
I knew that to have any sort of peace
717
00:44:12,831 --> 00:44:15,950
that I needed to leave Lismore.
718
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:20,450
And I finished my last exam,
719
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:23,530
packed up my stuff
one day when my dad was at work
720
00:44:23,630 --> 00:44:25,629
and just left.
721
00:44:28,509 --> 00:44:31,309
I actually don't remember
saying goodbye to my dad at all.
722
00:44:33,468 --> 00:44:35,688
So I went to Sydney.
723
00:44:35,788 --> 00:44:40,768
And moved in
with my cousin Elle and the family.
724
00:44:40,868 --> 00:44:45,087
And we went to uni together
at Sydney Uni.
725
00:44:45,187 --> 00:44:50,167
At some point, I got a job
at Sydney Theatre Company,
726
00:44:50,267 --> 00:44:52,446
and that's where I met Tanya.
727
00:44:52,546 --> 00:44:57,046
Kathryn's my best friend,
my former partner.
728
00:44:57,146 --> 00:44:59,885
We met in 2008.
729
00:44:59,985 --> 00:45:02,205
Neither of us had been
in a queer relationship before.
730
00:45:02,305 --> 00:45:05,885
So our falling in love
was a really beautiful time
731
00:45:05,985 --> 00:45:07,685
and also complicated time.
732
00:45:07,785 --> 00:45:09,764
We had, like, a great crew of friends
733
00:45:09,864 --> 00:45:12,244
that we spent time with
and saw a lot of art.
734
00:45:12,344 --> 00:45:14,084
We were super broke,
735
00:45:14,184 --> 00:45:19,883
but it was a beautiful kind of love story
736
00:45:19,983 --> 00:45:22,163
and then also, like...
737
00:45:22,263 --> 00:45:26,122
interwoven with a lot of trauma
and pain, I guess.
738
00:45:26,222 --> 00:45:33,922
I felt like I would leave behind
everything that had happened,
739
00:45:34,022 --> 00:45:39,921
including that feeling of...
I guess, you know, depression.
740
00:45:40,021 --> 00:45:43,480
I just assumed that that would go away
741
00:45:43,580 --> 00:45:46,880
once I was out of the house
and away from my dad.
742
00:45:46,980 --> 00:45:48,980
And...
743
00:45:50,180 --> 00:45:51,840
it didn't.
744
00:45:51,940 --> 00:45:54,959
In fact, it felt worse.
745
00:45:55,059 --> 00:45:58,119
I was more depressed.
I was really depressed.
746
00:45:58,219 --> 00:46:02,558
I don't think
I've ever seen Kathryn asleep.
747
00:46:02,658 --> 00:46:05,798
And we were together for four years.
748
00:46:05,898 --> 00:46:09,418
Insomnia and nightmares
were a big part of our life.
749
00:46:10,097 --> 00:46:14,357
They would sit bolt upright
and they would be screaming.
750
00:46:14,457 --> 00:46:17,597
It was a guttural scream.
751
00:46:17,697 --> 00:46:21,516
And they would be shaking, hyperventilating.
752
00:46:21,616 --> 00:46:25,976
It was just fear.
Just... just fear.
753
00:46:26,816 --> 00:46:29,555
How anyone thought
that he could raise those kids
754
00:46:29,655 --> 00:46:32,555
in the home where he killed Carolyn
755
00:46:32,655 --> 00:46:38,234
and then have one of them grow up
with physical likeness to this person
756
00:46:38,334 --> 00:46:39,874
and for people not to think
757
00:46:39,974 --> 00:46:42,714
that there was going to be
some problems there,
758
00:46:42,814 --> 00:46:44,354
perplexes me.
759
00:46:44,454 --> 00:46:48,753
My father was still
in regular contact with me
760
00:46:48,853 --> 00:46:53,273
and writing me letters
that were pretty awful.
761
00:46:53,373 --> 00:46:54,912
Some days we would be
762
00:46:55,012 --> 00:46:57,192
going about our days
in our tiny little apartment
763
00:46:57,292 --> 00:47:00,832
and it was like living
with someone that wasn't there.
764
00:47:00,932 --> 00:47:03,151
Like, they were the closest person
to me in the world,
765
00:47:03,251 --> 00:47:05,251
so when they did disappear...
766
00:47:06,291 --> 00:47:08,691
it was difficult.
767
00:47:10,011 --> 00:47:12,010
And I didn't know what to do.
768
00:47:12,970 --> 00:47:15,790
And it was during that time
769
00:47:15,890 --> 00:47:18,710
that I went through
a lot of things in my life.
770
00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:20,949
A break-up with Tanya.
771
00:47:21,049 --> 00:47:26,549
That brought a lot of grief, um...
772
00:47:26,649 --> 00:47:29,948
and loss into my... to my world.
773
00:47:30,048 --> 00:47:33,428
So I started going to therapy,
774
00:47:33,528 --> 00:47:36,128
like, really seriously for the first time.
775
00:47:37,568 --> 00:47:43,527
And really started
dealing with my childhood.
776
00:47:53,046 --> 00:47:57,265
So, in 2013
I dropped my surname, Stuckey.
777
00:47:57,365 --> 00:48:01,965
And I made my middle name
my surname, which is Joy.
778
00:48:02,845 --> 00:48:05,584
And Joy was my mum's middle name.
779
00:48:05,684 --> 00:48:11,064
Part of it was not wanting
to just be easily tracked down
780
00:48:11,164 --> 00:48:12,624
by my father.
781
00:48:12,724 --> 00:48:15,823
And then there was
really embracing my mum
782
00:48:15,923 --> 00:48:17,923
and that side of the family.
783
00:48:21,323 --> 00:48:23,322
[birds twittering]
784
00:48:38,721 --> 00:48:42,480
I always felt like
I wasn't going to be around for very long.
785
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,880
Like I was going to have a short life.
786
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,519
Like my mum.
787
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,299
I worked out how old she was
when she was killed.
788
00:48:54,399 --> 00:48:59,318
Which was 32 years,
nine weeks and six days.
789
00:49:00,678 --> 00:49:04,058
And I worked out what date
that will be for me.
790
00:49:04,158 --> 00:49:08,597
And it's 27th December 2016.
791
00:49:09,797 --> 00:49:12,337
So I have a cut-off date in my head.
792
00:49:12,437 --> 00:49:15,276
And I have about six months.
793
00:49:16,476 --> 00:49:21,756
I've always just assumed
that I would die sometime before then.
794
00:49:24,235 --> 00:49:26,315
That's... that's it for me.
795
00:49:35,634 --> 00:49:39,894
Part of feeling like
I'm not going to be here next year
796
00:49:39,994 --> 00:49:43,413
is not having a mother
797
00:49:43,513 --> 00:49:45,533
to kind of see what that looks like,
798
00:49:45,633 --> 00:49:48,773
what that next part looks like
and getting older looks like.
799
00:49:48,873 --> 00:49:52,612
And a lot of people
look to their parents for that.
800
00:49:52,712 --> 00:49:56,752
But part of it, I think, is just that I...
801
00:49:58,432 --> 00:50:01,831
feel like we're somehow the same person.
802
00:50:03,351 --> 00:50:06,831
And that's probably not the healthiest
thing in the world. [heavy exhale]
803
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:11,190
[sighing softly]
804
00:50:16,030 --> 00:50:18,649
So it's like 2 a.m. or something
805
00:50:18,749 --> 00:50:23,849
and... I can't sleep because...
806
00:50:23,949 --> 00:50:26,088
I've never been able
to take sleeping pills
807
00:50:26,188 --> 00:50:30,168
because they give me these nightmares.
808
00:50:30,268 --> 00:50:33,888
I feel like having them around
is probably not a good idea.
809
00:50:33,988 --> 00:50:35,987
So...
810
00:50:42,947 --> 00:50:44,046
[exhales softly]
811
00:50:44,146 --> 00:50:46,786
I'm supposed to be at therapy today.
812
00:50:47,826 --> 00:50:52,125
I had to cancel it
because I can't afford to go.
813
00:50:52,225 --> 00:50:55,425
Like, I'm 32 and I can't pay my rent.
814
00:50:58,345 --> 00:51:00,924
I think that's enough for today.
815
00:51:01,024 --> 00:51:03,024
[sniffles]
816
00:51:06,344 --> 00:51:10,823
I really didn't want to do this today
because I feel awful and...
817
00:51:12,183 --> 00:51:14,183
[sighs]
818
00:51:14,943 --> 00:51:20,422
...and I'm afraid of...
not coming out of it.
819
00:51:22,742 --> 00:51:24,822
[sniffles]
820
00:51:26,742 --> 00:51:28,741
[exhales]
821
00:51:32,101 --> 00:51:35,021
Today is December 26th.
822
00:51:36,061 --> 00:51:38,480
So, tomorrow...
823
00:51:38,580 --> 00:51:43,060
I will be the exact age that my mother was
when she was killed.
824
00:52:23,015 --> 00:52:26,715
[Kathryn] So, today is New Year's Day
825
00:52:26,815 --> 00:52:28,315
and I'm alive.
826
00:52:28,415 --> 00:52:32,174
So that's... kind of strange.
827
00:52:33,134 --> 00:52:38,833
I've just realised how many people
in my life are willing to help.
828
00:52:38,933 --> 00:52:41,633
And it's a really beautiful thing, so...
829
00:52:41,733 --> 00:52:44,833
I guess, just thinking about
the next couple of months,
830
00:52:44,933 --> 00:52:48,212
thinking about how I'm going to survive.
831
00:52:49,932 --> 00:52:53,512
And some of those things
are just kind of practical things
832
00:52:53,612 --> 00:52:59,271
to do with work and finding another job.
833
00:52:59,371 --> 00:53:00,751
[sighs]
834
00:53:00,851 --> 00:53:02,971
I think I need to learn to drive.
835
00:53:07,570 --> 00:53:09,570
I will...
836
00:53:11,810 --> 00:53:15,129
...I guess, be back tomorrow.
837
00:53:21,209 --> 00:53:24,228
For such a long time
838
00:53:24,328 --> 00:53:27,788
the only thing
that I knew about my mum
839
00:53:27,888 --> 00:53:29,888
was the way that she died.
840
00:53:31,327 --> 00:53:36,487
Then that became
my whole relationship with her.
841
00:53:39,247 --> 00:53:41,106
It's been really important to me
842
00:53:41,206 --> 00:53:45,666
for her to exist as a person who lived
843
00:53:45,766 --> 00:53:49,525
and not just a person who was killed.
844
00:53:54,365 --> 00:53:59,544
I decided that I wanted
to write to some people
845
00:53:59,644 --> 00:54:01,804
and, like, ask them...
846
00:54:03,524 --> 00:54:05,524
...what my mum was like.
847
00:54:09,003 --> 00:54:14,043
So, we're going to Brisbane
to meet Anne McKinnon.
848
00:54:15,362 --> 00:54:17,142
A friend of my mum's.
849
00:54:17,242 --> 00:54:18,702
I'm excited
850
00:54:18,802 --> 00:54:23,462
because I never really knew
what happened to her.
851
00:54:23,562 --> 00:54:26,441
We couldn't get a lot of information.
852
00:54:27,281 --> 00:54:28,821
We lost our friend,
853
00:54:28,921 --> 00:54:32,061
but you don't know
what happened to the children.
854
00:54:32,161 --> 00:54:35,680
I probably had never thought about it
from the point of view of the child.
855
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,000
Their feelings
and what their lives turned out like.
856
00:54:43,919 --> 00:54:45,499
[Kathryn] When my mum was younger,
857
00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:48,619
I think they studied together
at teachers' college,
858
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,178
from what I know.
859
00:54:50,278 --> 00:54:52,278
So, it'll be nice to hear about...
860
00:54:53,878 --> 00:54:57,738
...I guess, those days
before my mum was a mother too.
861
00:54:57,838 --> 00:55:00,557
You know? Just her as a younger person.
862
00:55:05,997 --> 00:55:07,697
May I hug you? Is that okay?
863
00:55:07,797 --> 00:55:10,256
Perfectly. Oh, you beautiful girl.
864
00:55:10,356 --> 00:55:14,296
I just wanted you stand next to me
like Mum and I.
865
00:55:14,396 --> 00:55:16,136
[gasps] Oh, my goodness!
866
00:55:16,236 --> 00:55:19,615
- [Anne] You're a little bit taller. Look.
- [Kathryn] Wow!
867
00:55:19,715 --> 00:55:23,375
- [Anne] That's going to the ball.
- [Kathryn] Oh, that's a beautiful picture.
868
00:55:23,475 --> 00:55:25,934
- [Anne] Oh, we would've been 18.
- [Kathryn] Wow.
869
00:55:26,034 --> 00:55:28,174
- God, you're like her. Oh, my God!
- [laughs]
870
00:55:28,274 --> 00:55:30,894
- It's so nice to see you!
- It's so nice to see you.
871
00:55:30,994 --> 00:55:32,854
- 'Cause we buddied up.
- Mmm.
872
00:55:32,954 --> 00:55:35,453
And we used to just
wake up at ten to 9:00,
873
00:55:35,553 --> 00:55:37,253
put the Levi's on and the gym boots
874
00:55:37,353 --> 00:55:39,973
and tuck our hair in
and jump the fence and go to uni.
875
00:55:40,073 --> 00:55:41,973
We had to go nine to five
in those days.
876
00:55:42,073 --> 00:55:44,332
It was very regimented,
mark the roll, you know.
877
00:55:44,432 --> 00:55:46,652
And she started skipping.
878
00:55:46,752 --> 00:55:49,092
I said,
"You gotta come to Social Studies!"
879
00:55:49,192 --> 00:55:50,492
She goes, "Ohh..."
880
00:55:50,592 --> 00:55:52,411
[Kathryn] Yes! I love this inf...
881
00:55:52,511 --> 00:55:55,651
- I love this, 'cause this is so me.
- And I'd say, "Get up!"
882
00:55:55,751 --> 00:55:57,691
She goes, "Ohh, I can't be bothered."
883
00:55:57,791 --> 00:56:00,371
I said, "Oh, you'll fail." And she did.
884
00:56:00,471 --> 00:56:02,450
- [Kathryn laughs]
- Anyway, she got through it.
885
00:56:02,550 --> 00:56:03,650
- She... Yeah.
- Yeah.
886
00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:07,210
- She was messy.
- I'm really messy too. [laughs]
887
00:56:07,310 --> 00:56:08,850
- Are you messy?
- I'm so messy.
888
00:56:08,950 --> 00:56:10,249
- Show me your hands.
- I'm so untidy.
889
00:56:10,349 --> 00:56:12,129
- You don't get eczema?
- I do, yes, yeah.
890
00:56:12,229 --> 00:56:13,929
So did she.
891
00:56:14,029 --> 00:56:16,489
And this is a recipe.
892
00:56:16,589 --> 00:56:18,289
That's Mum's writing.
893
00:56:18,389 --> 00:56:21,208
Oh, yes! She had such neat writing.
894
00:56:21,308 --> 00:56:24,328
Carolyn. And that's rum cream pie.
I've got a copy of that.
895
00:56:24,428 --> 00:56:26,568
- So you have that.
- Amazing. Oh, thank you.
896
00:56:26,668 --> 00:56:27,847
You have that.
897
00:56:27,947 --> 00:56:29,767
This is my little
treasure trove I got out.
898
00:56:29,867 --> 00:56:34,647
I'm gonna veganise this recipe
and make it. [laughs]
899
00:56:34,747 --> 00:56:36,646
- Well, you keep all those.
- [Kathryn] Thank you.
900
00:56:36,746 --> 00:56:38,406
[Anne] You know,
you're more than welcome.
901
00:56:38,506 --> 00:56:40,366
It was so nice to meet you.
Thank you so much
902
00:56:40,466 --> 00:56:42,566
- It's just been wonderful.
- It's been really lovely.
903
00:56:42,666 --> 00:56:45,325
And I really hope we can catch up again
and stay in touch.
904
00:56:45,425 --> 00:56:47,425
- Thank you. Ohh...
- Give me a big hug.
905
00:56:52,905 --> 00:56:56,164
I decided to get in touch
with Allen Ennew.
906
00:56:56,264 --> 00:57:01,444
He was the man my mother
fell in love with, had an affair with,
907
00:57:01,544 --> 00:57:05,023
and ask some questions about my mum.
908
00:57:06,303 --> 00:57:08,203
[man] "Dear Kathryn,
909
00:57:08,303 --> 00:57:10,963
"the first thing I should mention
regarding our relationship
910
00:57:11,063 --> 00:57:13,002
"is that while it started as an affair,
911
00:57:13,102 --> 00:57:15,102
"it developed into much more.
912
00:57:16,302 --> 00:57:19,042
"Carolyn was
a very special person to me.
913
00:57:19,142 --> 00:57:22,641
"But not only to me
but many friends she had
914
00:57:22,741 --> 00:57:26,521
"and was and is sadly missed
915
00:57:26,621 --> 00:57:28,781
"even after all this time."
916
00:57:30,460 --> 00:57:35,020
I had also received a letter
from Clare during that time.
917
00:57:36,580 --> 00:57:39,479
She contacted me
918
00:57:39,579 --> 00:57:43,559
after she had heard
that I'd reached out to her dad.
919
00:57:43,659 --> 00:57:49,038
And we just became really good friends.
920
00:57:49,138 --> 00:57:52,698
And such a big anchor for me.
921
00:57:53,698 --> 00:57:58,797
While we didn't have the same experience,
922
00:57:58,897 --> 00:58:02,117
there were so many things
that were similar
923
00:58:02,217 --> 00:58:04,236
and there was just a real understanding
924
00:58:04,336 --> 00:58:08,176
of our families and that town
and everything that happened.
925
00:58:17,495 --> 00:58:21,595
I don't think I've ever
really been around here much.
926
00:58:21,695 --> 00:58:23,594
Ahh! Greenwood... That's...
927
00:58:23,694 --> 00:58:26,014
I feel like that name was in the trial.
928
00:58:29,214 --> 00:58:33,913
So, this is the house
where my dad and your mum
929
00:58:34,013 --> 00:58:36,633
we're planning on being together.
930
00:58:36,733 --> 00:58:39,353
So, Dad bought this house thinking
931
00:58:39,453 --> 00:58:43,472
that you and your brothers
would move in here.
932
00:58:43,572 --> 00:58:45,572
And, of course, your mum.
933
00:58:46,572 --> 00:58:48,651
This would've been your home.
934
00:58:50,491 --> 00:58:52,691
- And yours.
- And mine.
935
00:58:58,090 --> 00:59:03,930
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a different...
whole, like, life that...
936
00:59:06,369 --> 00:59:08,369
...could have been.
937
00:59:11,009 --> 00:59:14,309
And that being, yeah, taken away.
938
00:59:14,409 --> 00:59:16,388
From her and from us.
939
00:59:16,488 --> 00:59:18,488
From all of us.
940
00:59:19,088 --> 00:59:21,088
[sighs]
941
00:59:30,007 --> 00:59:32,067
[Jill] When you said
that you used to think,
942
00:59:32,167 --> 00:59:34,386
"Where are those people
who were my mother's friends?
943
00:59:34,486 --> 00:59:36,026
"Why aren't they helping me?"
944
00:59:36,126 --> 00:59:39,146
I just... You know,
that was devastating to hear that.
945
00:59:39,246 --> 00:59:44,225
I knew your father's animosity
to anyone who was from that time.
946
00:59:44,325 --> 00:59:46,145
But maybe we should've gone past that.
947
00:59:46,245 --> 00:59:48,265
You know, maybe that's...
948
00:59:48,365 --> 00:59:50,504
You know, we should've been brave...
949
00:59:50,604 --> 00:59:53,424
I guess, selfishly we were all
looking after ourselves as well.
950
00:59:53,524 --> 00:59:56,144
- And...
- We were afraid too.
951
00:59:56,244 --> 00:59:59,223
I was scared to ask questions
'cause I didn't know who to ask.
952
00:59:59,323 --> 01:00:03,183
And, like, it was honestly
like it had never happened.
953
01:00:03,283 --> 01:00:06,503
But I just imagined that
every time anywhere you went
954
01:00:06,603 --> 01:00:08,702
that people would have said,
"Oh, you know..."
955
01:00:08,802 --> 01:00:11,582
I'm sure they did.
I mean, that's the thing too.
956
01:00:11,682 --> 01:00:13,502
Growing up knowing that other people...
957
01:00:13,602 --> 01:00:15,302
Well, not even knowing but feeling
958
01:00:15,402 --> 01:00:17,381
like people were talking
about you all the time.
959
01:00:17,481 --> 01:00:19,781
- Did you?
- [Kathryn] Yeah.
960
01:00:19,881 --> 01:00:22,521
You know, we could... [exhales deeply]
961
01:00:24,441 --> 01:00:27,620
...can handle anything
but the silence.
962
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,720
- [Kathryn] Yeah.
- [Jill] Yes.
963
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,619
I hated that everyone
always was so careful.
964
01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:38,019
I mean, I know it was
a protective thing, but that...
965
01:00:38,119 --> 01:00:39,539
Yeah, we... [inhales]
966
01:00:39,639 --> 01:00:43,098
It's like, I've already lived
through the worst of it.
967
01:00:43,198 --> 01:00:47,078
Yeah, the worst part
is not speaking about it.
968
01:00:50,638 --> 01:00:53,817
So, I went back to Banksia Court,
969
01:00:53,917 --> 01:00:57,737
my old street that I grew up in.
970
01:00:57,837 --> 01:01:03,636
But I was with Helen and Lyndel,
my two old neighbours.
971
01:01:06,116 --> 01:01:07,416
[Helen] Wow.
972
01:01:07,516 --> 01:01:11,215
[Lyndel] How do you feel coming back?
And have you been back before?
973
01:01:11,315 --> 01:01:13,495
I think I've driven past once
974
01:01:13,595 --> 01:01:15,535
in the last, you know,
20 years or something.
975
01:01:15,635 --> 01:01:18,055
But I haven't, kind of, stood here and...
976
01:01:18,155 --> 01:01:19,534
[Helen & Lyndel] Yep.
977
01:01:19,634 --> 01:01:21,254
[sighs]
978
01:01:21,354 --> 01:01:23,594
It's... hard.
979
01:01:25,034 --> 01:01:26,534
Yeah.
980
01:01:26,634 --> 01:01:28,853
I remember it being
a really dark house growing up.
981
01:01:28,953 --> 01:01:31,253
I mean, I don't know
if that was my state of mind or...
982
01:01:31,353 --> 01:01:34,653
- But the house itself felt really... Yeah.
- It is a dark house. Yeah.
983
01:01:34,753 --> 01:01:37,652
And I feel like the curtains
were always closed.
984
01:01:37,752 --> 01:01:39,452
Did you notice the difference
985
01:01:39,552 --> 01:01:41,852
between, like, when my mum
was there and after?
986
01:01:41,952 --> 01:01:44,052
Like, did it feel very different?
987
01:01:44,152 --> 01:01:46,691
I remember being here
to look after your brothers, Kathryn,
988
01:01:46,791 --> 01:01:49,451
when your dad took you as a little baby.
989
01:01:49,551 --> 01:01:51,251
And I just was sitting in the house
990
01:01:51,351 --> 01:01:54,250
just feeling the enormity
of what had happened.
991
01:01:54,350 --> 01:01:57,370
And how dark and, you know, um...
992
01:01:57,470 --> 01:01:59,250
You know, your mum was always vibrant
993
01:01:59,350 --> 01:02:01,850
and there'd be snacks
and lots of activity happening
994
01:02:01,950 --> 01:02:03,409
and giggling, and...
995
01:02:03,509 --> 01:02:08,169
The sense was just
that huge contrast between...
996
01:02:08,269 --> 01:02:11,568
you know, this is now and here on.
997
01:02:11,668 --> 01:02:14,648
But I think now we get to grieve that.
998
01:02:14,748 --> 01:02:17,088
- [Kathryn] Mmm.
- Whereas back then we didn't.
999
01:02:17,188 --> 01:02:19,188
Because we didn't know how.
1000
01:02:28,267 --> 01:02:30,426
- There she is.
- Oh, there she is.
1001
01:02:34,826 --> 01:02:37,605
I feel really angry about the fact
that it says "passed away".
1002
01:02:37,705 --> 01:02:40,885
- [Helen] I was just looking at that.
- [Kathryn] It just makes me really mad.
1003
01:02:40,985 --> 01:02:42,985
Because he... he did this.
1004
01:02:44,145 --> 01:02:47,124
[Lyndel] She'll always be older than me.
1005
01:02:47,224 --> 01:02:50,204
I'm 52 and I still look at Carolyn as...
1006
01:02:50,304 --> 01:02:53,324
- [Kathryn] I know. Isn't that strange?
- [Lyndel] She's always gonna be...
1007
01:02:53,424 --> 01:02:57,283
[Helen] Your mum read this to you
when you were a baby.
1008
01:02:57,383 --> 01:02:59,283
"I carry your heart with me.
1009
01:02:59,383 --> 01:03:01,403
"I carry it in my heart.
1010
01:03:01,503 --> 01:03:03,283
"I am never without it.
1011
01:03:03,383 --> 01:03:06,762
"Anywhere I go, you go, my dear..."
1012
01:03:06,862 --> 01:03:09,202
[woman, VO]
"And whatever is done by only me
1013
01:03:09,302 --> 01:03:11,682
"is your doing, my darling.
1014
01:03:11,782 --> 01:03:14,321
"I fear no fate.
1015
01:03:14,421 --> 01:03:17,041
"For you are my fate, my sweet.
1016
01:03:17,141 --> 01:03:19,481
"I want no world.
1017
01:03:19,581 --> 01:03:23,240
"For beautiful you are my world, my true.
1018
01:03:23,340 --> 01:03:25,680
"I carry your heart.
1019
01:03:25,780 --> 01:03:27,940
"I carry it in my heart."
1020
01:03:36,419 --> 01:03:38,619
She loved you so much.
1021
01:03:40,418 --> 01:03:42,898
The three of you so, so much.
1022
01:03:57,296 --> 01:04:01,816
[Kathryn] I had been having these thoughts
about doing a memorial for my mum.
1023
01:04:03,856 --> 01:04:07,515
Make a space for all of us
to talk a bit more about her
1024
01:04:07,615 --> 01:04:10,395
and have some ritual around it.
1025
01:04:10,495 --> 01:04:14,714
I felt like I needed that.
Like a grief ritual.
1026
01:04:14,814 --> 01:04:16,594
And...
1027
01:04:16,694 --> 01:04:18,734
And I felt like other people did too.
1028
01:04:19,734 --> 01:04:21,734
[birds whistling, twittering]
1029
01:04:23,334 --> 01:04:26,113
[Tanya] Kathryn wanted
to do something in Lismore.
1030
01:04:26,213 --> 01:04:29,573
To bring together friends and family,
to honour Carolyn.
1031
01:04:30,653 --> 01:04:33,432
They ended up
finding this outdoor cathedral.
1032
01:04:33,532 --> 01:04:36,552
Which was so beautiful
and, yeah, really connected
1033
01:04:36,652 --> 01:04:40,912
Kathryn's kind of
environmental spirituality
1034
01:04:41,012 --> 01:04:43,251
and Carolyn's faith.
1035
01:04:54,570 --> 01:04:56,710
- [indistinct chatter]
- [Kathryn] They're amazing.
1036
01:04:56,810 --> 01:04:58,809
They're just one for each person.
1037
01:05:00,809 --> 01:05:03,969
[sighs heavily] Gosh.
1038
01:05:04,809 --> 01:05:06,469
[Kathryn] So many people, really,
1039
01:05:06,569 --> 01:05:08,428
were just waiting for me to ask.
1040
01:05:08,528 --> 01:05:11,988
You know, like, really actually wanted
the opportunity to speak about her.
1041
01:05:12,088 --> 01:05:13,828
- Hi! How you going?
- This is my daughter.
1042
01:05:13,928 --> 01:05:15,308
So nice to meet you.
1043
01:05:15,408 --> 01:05:17,267
- How are you?
- Good to see you.
1044
01:05:17,367 --> 01:05:19,947
This is the first photo
of Kathryn's mother.
1045
01:05:20,047 --> 01:05:23,007
So, Carolyn would've been
around four to five.
1046
01:05:25,047 --> 01:05:27,306
[Kathryn] Ohh. It's a beautiful photo.
1047
01:05:27,406 --> 01:05:31,626
Kathryn did an amazing job
of organising the memorial.
1048
01:05:31,726 --> 01:05:34,945
She got all sorts of people
came together.
1049
01:05:35,045 --> 01:05:38,145
People that I hadn't seen
for years were there.
1050
01:05:38,245 --> 01:05:42,005
That made it emotional
because we knew why we were there.
1051
01:05:44,044 --> 01:05:47,344
[Tanya] It was also a real time
of connection and beauty
1052
01:05:47,444 --> 01:05:49,444
and community.
1053
01:05:49,844 --> 01:05:51,504
[Jill Brodie] And it was amazing.
1054
01:05:51,604 --> 01:05:54,863
And it was so cathartic
for all of us there.
1055
01:05:54,963 --> 01:05:57,803
Emotion was so raw, so real.
1056
01:05:58,483 --> 01:06:02,222
It was as if it was a week after
something had happened.
1057
01:06:02,322 --> 01:06:04,322
And I'll never forget it.
1058
01:06:05,322 --> 01:06:07,342
I just wanted to welcome everyone here.
1059
01:06:07,442 --> 01:06:10,061
You probably all know
it's Carolyn's birthday today.
1060
01:06:10,161 --> 01:06:12,981
And I feel like maybe if she were here
1061
01:06:13,081 --> 01:06:15,581
she would put on
some spectacular dinner party,
1062
01:06:15,681 --> 01:06:17,181
she would print out menus.
1063
01:06:17,281 --> 01:06:21,500
Her attention to detail,
I have heard, was pretty spot on.
1064
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:23,860
Carolyn, your death came before
1065
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:26,620
the groundswell change of public outrage
1066
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:28,699
at the incidents of domestic violence
1067
01:06:28,799 --> 01:06:30,339
that blight our community.
1068
01:06:30,439 --> 01:06:32,579
Even now, 30 years later,
1069
01:06:32,679 --> 01:06:34,499
I find it difficult to speak without
1070
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:36,378
getting a little bit
of a lump in my throat.
1071
01:06:36,478 --> 01:06:39,618
And today is closure for me as well.
1072
01:06:39,718 --> 01:06:43,618
And I just... I'm so happy
and so pleased to see you,
1073
01:06:43,718 --> 01:06:46,377
the embodiment of your mother,
1074
01:06:46,477 --> 01:06:51,857
and with the approach to life that
I think she would be very, very proud of.
1075
01:06:51,957 --> 01:06:54,656
I've been trying to put words
to how I feel about my mother
1076
01:06:54,756 --> 01:06:56,576
my whole life.
1077
01:06:56,676 --> 01:06:59,576
The feeling of being part of her,
and her me,
1078
01:06:59,676 --> 01:07:03,975
but also the absence,
of something missing.
1079
01:07:04,075 --> 01:07:08,455
Happy anniversary of your birth,
Carolyn Joy.
1080
01:07:08,555 --> 01:07:11,214
You have lived in my heart
and mind and body
1081
01:07:11,314 --> 01:07:13,654
since the very first moment
I took breath.
1082
01:07:13,754 --> 01:07:14,774
[sniffles]
1083
01:07:14,874 --> 01:07:17,234
And you will be there until the last.
1084
01:07:18,194 --> 01:07:21,833
And in that way, you have lived
far longer than your 32 years.
1085
01:07:22,753 --> 01:07:26,033
[sombre piano music plays]
1086
01:08:12,148 --> 01:08:17,607
[Kathryn] That my mother died
as a result of family violence,
1087
01:08:17,707 --> 01:08:20,847
I didn't think of it that way for so long.
1088
01:08:20,947 --> 01:08:23,606
Because there was this idea that
1089
01:08:23,706 --> 01:08:27,286
that was just an anomaly
in my dad's behaviour
1090
01:08:27,386 --> 01:08:31,545
instead of an actual act
of family violence.
1091
01:08:32,545 --> 01:08:35,765
That was also a crime against us.
1092
01:08:35,865 --> 01:08:37,865
Or should have been.
1093
01:08:38,945 --> 01:08:42,544
That was a really big shift
in my thinking.
1094
01:08:47,504 --> 01:08:52,683
I started working on the research project
at Melbourne Uni
1095
01:08:52,783 --> 01:08:56,323
that aims to improve support
1096
01:08:56,423 --> 01:08:58,522
and better understand
children and young people
1097
01:08:58,622 --> 01:09:01,042
who have been bereaved
by a domestic homicide.
1098
01:09:01,142 --> 01:09:04,762
Acting in the best interest of the child
is seen as secondary
1099
01:09:04,862 --> 01:09:07,801
to ensuring that the accused
gets a fair trial.
1100
01:09:07,901 --> 01:09:11,081
But also, how much are they supported
to have agency?
1101
01:09:11,181 --> 01:09:14,520
So it's not just about having a voice,
it's actually that that leads to change.
1102
01:09:14,620 --> 01:09:17,680
Yeah, it's a bigger issue
than probably people have realised.
1103
01:09:17,780 --> 01:09:18,920
[Kathryn] Yeah, totally.
1104
01:09:19,020 --> 01:09:23,160
Bev is somebody that I interviewed
for our research project.
1105
01:09:23,260 --> 01:09:25,119
I hear a gunshot
1106
01:09:25,219 --> 01:09:28,119
and I'm like, "What the hell?"
1107
01:09:28,219 --> 01:09:30,399
And I see my mum being shot in the back.
1108
01:09:30,499 --> 01:09:32,318
[Kathryn] And how old were you
at this point?
1109
01:09:32,418 --> 01:09:33,918
I'm 11 at this point.
1110
01:09:34,018 --> 01:09:37,198
I can't remember how many shots in total,
but the final shot was to the head.
1111
01:09:37,298 --> 01:09:41,277
I still see that image
pretty much every day.
1112
01:09:41,377 --> 01:09:43,877
How do we heal from this experience?
1113
01:09:43,977 --> 01:09:45,437
Do we ever really heal?
1114
01:09:45,537 --> 01:09:47,677
Where do we stand
and what do we have left to do
1115
01:09:47,777 --> 01:09:49,157
here in this space?
1116
01:09:49,257 --> 01:09:50,516
Because there is a lot more...
1117
01:09:50,616 --> 01:09:52,716
- So much to do. [laughs]
- ...to be done in this space.
1118
01:09:52,816 --> 01:09:54,816
And we're gonna do it, Bev.
1119
01:09:56,816 --> 01:10:00,515
[Bev] 52 women a year are dying.
1120
01:10:00,615 --> 01:10:03,755
These women are mothers, grandmothers,
1121
01:10:03,855 --> 01:10:06,395
someone's aunt, someone's friend.
1122
01:10:06,495 --> 01:10:09,054
Where are the voices
of those who are left behind?
1123
01:10:11,654 --> 01:10:14,434
[Kathryn]
I think that the work that we're doing
1124
01:10:14,534 --> 01:10:15,994
and what we're fighting for
1125
01:10:16,094 --> 01:10:18,933
will make a difference
to children and young people.
1126
01:10:21,053 --> 01:10:22,633
Children are primary victims
1127
01:10:22,733 --> 01:10:23,833
in this situation.
1128
01:10:23,933 --> 01:10:26,152
Like, it's a direct crime
1129
01:10:26,252 --> 01:10:28,192
against them as well.
1130
01:10:28,292 --> 01:10:30,272
The men who commit these crimes
1131
01:10:30,372 --> 01:10:32,952
are considered intelligent, charming.
1132
01:10:33,052 --> 01:10:36,191
They might not fit the stereotype
of what an abuser looks like.
1133
01:10:36,291 --> 01:10:37,791
And my dad was those things.
1134
01:10:37,891 --> 01:10:40,791
I don't have any relationship
with him anymore and I don't...
1135
01:10:40,891 --> 01:10:44,630
I practise very deliberate
non-forgiveness.
1136
01:10:44,730 --> 01:10:46,550
I don't know my dad now.
1137
01:10:46,650 --> 01:10:50,190
So, I can't really speak
to the person he is now.
1138
01:10:50,290 --> 01:10:54,509
But the further away I get
the more clearly I can see
1139
01:10:54,609 --> 01:10:57,509
what it's like to be in
an abusive relationship.
1140
01:10:57,609 --> 01:10:59,629
And that was an abusive relationship.
1141
01:10:59,729 --> 01:11:02,068
So, me wanting to come back to him,
1142
01:11:02,168 --> 01:11:04,708
him to be proud of me
and be in his favour,
1143
01:11:04,808 --> 01:11:07,228
yes, that's a child wanting that.
1144
01:11:07,328 --> 01:11:08,828
But that's also somebody
1145
01:11:08,928 --> 01:11:11,667
who is going through the dynamic
1146
01:11:11,767 --> 01:11:14,867
of somebody else's push and pull
1147
01:11:14,967 --> 01:11:16,967
and somebody else's control.
1148
01:11:20,686 --> 01:11:22,886
I don't have him in my head anymore.
1149
01:11:24,206 --> 01:11:28,705
So many of the depressive
kind of episodes that I've had
1150
01:11:28,805 --> 01:11:33,185
are around that stuff
that I can't change
1151
01:11:33,285 --> 01:11:35,425
no matter how much therapy I do.
1152
01:11:35,525 --> 01:11:37,984
And that's where activism
comes into my life.
1153
01:11:38,084 --> 01:11:39,544
I think, that's where I go,
1154
01:11:39,644 --> 01:11:44,324
"Well, I can't just be
doing interior work."
1155
01:11:45,043 --> 01:11:48,743
I feel like if you're
gonna live in this world,
1156
01:11:48,843 --> 01:11:50,843
you have to do something.
1157
01:11:52,723 --> 01:11:55,662
I love the concept of Killjoys.
1158
01:11:55,762 --> 01:11:58,482
Of feminist Killjoys, specifically.
1159
01:11:59,362 --> 01:12:01,142
Sara Ahmed,
1160
01:12:01,242 --> 01:12:04,941
who is an amazing thinker and writer,
1161
01:12:05,041 --> 01:12:07,801
and she coined this term.
1162
01:12:09,041 --> 01:12:10,581
People who are willing
1163
01:12:10,681 --> 01:12:15,260
to sort of not stay quiet about injustice.
1164
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,300
And I have been called a killjoy.
1165
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:20,059
And I embrace that.
1166
01:12:20,159 --> 01:12:22,159
I think it's a good thing.
1167
01:12:36,158 --> 01:12:40,477
I'm not here now
as, like, some healed human.
1168
01:12:44,117 --> 01:12:46,117
It's ongoing.
1169
01:12:46,676 --> 01:12:51,496
It's always kind of navigating
my mental health
1170
01:12:51,596 --> 01:12:54,116
and experiences and trauma.
1171
01:12:58,395 --> 01:13:01,015
Being almost 40 now
1172
01:13:01,115 --> 01:13:04,634
and realising that my mum
only got to 32...
1173
01:13:06,914 --> 01:13:09,134
For me, my thirties have just been
1174
01:13:09,234 --> 01:13:12,454
such a huge time
of understanding myself.
1175
01:13:12,554 --> 01:13:15,913
And she didn't really get that time.
1176
01:13:18,953 --> 01:13:22,272
I think if I could speak to my mum now...
1177
01:13:23,232 --> 01:13:27,152
I would... tell her I loved her.
1178
01:13:29,472 --> 01:13:31,471
And let her know that...
1179
01:13:34,431 --> 01:13:37,191
...my life is, like, so full.
1180
01:13:44,470 --> 01:13:49,189
I don't just have to tolerate
being sort of okay.
1181
01:13:52,189 --> 01:13:55,509
You know, I'm actually
allowed to feel good.
1182
01:13:59,508 --> 01:14:02,848
I'm in a new place where I feel like
I might actually live for a while.
1183
01:14:02,948 --> 01:14:05,607
I mean, who knows?
Who knows what will happen?
1184
01:14:05,707 --> 01:14:08,687
[sombre piano music plays]
1185
01:14:08,787 --> 01:14:11,787
[light chatter and laughter fade out]
90451
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