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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:15,930 --> 00:00:18,849 [dark, mysterious music plays] 2 00:00:34,728 --> 00:00:37,687 [tense music plays] 3 00:00:55,205 --> 00:00:58,465 [sombre piano music plays] 4 00:00:58,565 --> 00:01:00,565 [tram bell dings] 5 00:01:24,442 --> 00:01:27,302 [interviewer] Okay. Let's start with the easy stuff. 6 00:01:27,402 --> 00:01:29,401 [sighs] 7 00:01:29,761 --> 00:01:32,281 [interviewer] Do you have a photo of your mum - Carolyn? 8 00:01:33,001 --> 00:01:35,001 Sure. 9 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,160 This is my mum - Carolyn. 10 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,040 I remember looking at it and being like, "I wonder if she was happy." 11 00:01:48,359 --> 00:01:50,779 I knew that every person that I ever met 12 00:01:50,879 --> 00:01:54,019 was eventually going to ask me... 13 00:01:54,119 --> 00:01:55,698 where my mum was. 14 00:01:55,798 --> 00:01:58,538 And... I dreaded it. 15 00:01:58,638 --> 00:02:04,177 Because I didn't want to have to explain 16 00:02:04,277 --> 00:02:06,297 the whole situation. 17 00:02:06,397 --> 00:02:09,097 I felt a lot of shame around it. 18 00:02:09,197 --> 00:02:12,217 Just having to deal with other people's reactions 19 00:02:12,317 --> 00:02:14,696 or responses or opinions, 20 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:19,336 or hold their anger, confusion, disgust, pain, 21 00:02:19,436 --> 00:02:23,775 surprise, awkwardness, or their silence. 22 00:02:23,875 --> 00:02:25,855 Sometimes I would make things up. 23 00:02:25,955 --> 00:02:28,195 Would just say a different... 24 00:02:29,315 --> 00:02:33,554 cause of death, um, that seemed, like, simpler. 25 00:02:34,394 --> 00:02:36,894 It was somewhere between "I don't want to talk about it" 26 00:02:36,994 --> 00:02:40,873 and just lying about the way she died. 27 00:02:42,353 --> 00:02:44,893 But the truth is... 28 00:02:44,993 --> 00:02:47,033 my dad killed my mum. 29 00:02:48,033 --> 00:02:50,192 I was three months old. 30 00:03:05,790 --> 00:03:08,490 My life was just always 31 00:03:08,590 --> 00:03:12,710 in the shadow of this horrible tragedy. 32 00:03:20,429 --> 00:03:22,249 Because I was never told anything, 33 00:03:22,349 --> 00:03:25,928 I've always wanted to know what happened, 34 00:03:26,028 --> 00:03:28,348 how it happened, why it happened. 35 00:03:30,188 --> 00:03:34,307 To keep knowing until somehow I can make it better. 36 00:03:37,267 --> 00:03:40,307 I would never want this to happen to anybody. 37 00:03:42,186 --> 00:03:43,806 But... 38 00:03:43,906 --> 00:03:46,506 I am who I am because of it. 39 00:03:50,065 --> 00:03:52,065 [dark music swells] 40 00:03:59,344 --> 00:04:01,344 Mm-hm. 41 00:04:03,264 --> 00:04:05,924 I came to know Carolyn probably about two... 42 00:04:06,024 --> 00:04:09,123 well, about two years before all of this happened. 43 00:04:09,223 --> 00:04:11,483 Uh, my name is Jill Brodie. 44 00:04:11,583 --> 00:04:15,723 Um, I met Carolyn when I was in my late twenties. 45 00:04:15,823 --> 00:04:19,522 Um, and she was a wonderful teacher. 46 00:04:19,622 --> 00:04:22,202 Amazing musician. Kind. 47 00:04:22,302 --> 00:04:26,841 And, of course, physically, she was so beautiful. 48 00:04:26,941 --> 00:04:29,121 My name's Vicki Sheaffe. 49 00:04:29,221 --> 00:04:33,241 I was a good friend of Carolyn Stuckey 50 00:04:33,341 --> 00:04:37,800 in our late twenties, early thirties. 51 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:41,640 Um, and now I'm sitting here at 71. 52 00:04:41,740 --> 00:04:45,159 [woman] Yeah, we got scholarships to go to teachers' college 53 00:04:45,259 --> 00:04:47,519 and we developed a very strong friendship. 54 00:04:47,619 --> 00:04:49,039 We just clicked. 55 00:04:49,139 --> 00:04:51,518 She was teaching our children at the time. 56 00:04:51,618 --> 00:04:56,078 And they had known her all their short lives 57 00:04:56,178 --> 00:04:58,118 and were very fond of her. 58 00:04:58,218 --> 00:05:00,278 I can remember my son aged five 59 00:05:00,378 --> 00:05:02,837 saying, "I love Mrs Stuckey, Mum." 60 00:05:02,937 --> 00:05:05,097 You know? And he meant it. 61 00:05:06,017 --> 00:05:07,797 [Kathryn] I think she loved children. 62 00:05:07,897 --> 00:05:11,436 I think, you know, you probably don't become a school teacher 63 00:05:11,536 --> 00:05:13,156 if you don't love children. 64 00:05:13,256 --> 00:05:15,996 She says, "I'm going to go into Miss Lismore." 65 00:05:16,096 --> 00:05:19,075 And I thought, "Oh, good on you!" You know? 66 00:05:19,175 --> 00:05:22,775 And the next thing, she's in the paper and she's won! 67 00:05:23,615 --> 00:05:25,615 This one... 68 00:05:26,175 --> 00:05:30,534 is where she was announced Miss Lismore. 69 00:05:32,414 --> 00:05:35,554 And there's Jacki Weaver down there 70 00:05:35,654 --> 00:05:39,313 with some guys going, "Heh, heh, heh," in the background. 71 00:05:39,413 --> 00:05:43,673 It was a big thing. It was real prestigious to be, you know, Miss Lismore. 72 00:05:43,773 --> 00:05:46,832 Oh, yeah. It was special. 73 00:05:46,932 --> 00:05:49,512 So, yeah, she would've been easily recognisable. 74 00:05:49,612 --> 00:05:51,552 Definitely. 75 00:05:51,652 --> 00:05:53,112 She was the sort of woman 76 00:05:53,212 --> 00:05:54,951 that people would turn around and look at. 77 00:05:55,051 --> 00:05:56,871 But she was oblivious to her beauty. 78 00:05:56,971 --> 00:06:00,651 She was oblivious to the effect she had on people. 79 00:06:02,330 --> 00:06:05,030 [Anne] I was with Carolyn at the Lismore Workers Club 80 00:06:05,130 --> 00:06:07,070 and it was a Wednesday night 81 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:09,710 when she met her husband - Allan Stuckey. 82 00:06:09,810 --> 00:06:11,549 I don't know whether he owned the pharmacy, 83 00:06:11,649 --> 00:06:14,129 but he was certainly the principal in the pharmacy in Lismore. 84 00:06:15,289 --> 00:06:18,729 And he was eight years older. So he was well placed. 85 00:06:19,489 --> 00:06:21,628 We were only 18. You know? 86 00:06:21,728 --> 00:06:24,348 We're going, "Who's this dude?" You know? 87 00:06:24,448 --> 00:06:26,988 "Who's this dude coming over here?" 88 00:06:27,088 --> 00:06:29,627 She was there for the picking, wasn't she? 89 00:06:29,727 --> 00:06:33,247 She's a pretty little thing, big blue eyes, blonde hair. 90 00:06:33,807 --> 00:06:35,547 Easily... 91 00:06:35,647 --> 00:06:38,286 easily won over, I would say. 92 00:06:38,926 --> 00:06:42,306 This one is, um, the two of them 93 00:06:42,406 --> 00:06:46,365 and my dad's sister, uh, at their wedding. 94 00:06:49,405 --> 00:06:51,745 I mean, the first thing I think is... 95 00:06:51,845 --> 00:06:55,744 those sideburns were quite a statement. 96 00:06:55,844 --> 00:06:58,104 [laughs] Um... 97 00:06:58,204 --> 00:06:59,904 Yeah, I mean, look, 98 00:07:00,004 --> 00:07:03,684 it's a bit strange to look at wedding photos of them. 99 00:07:06,203 --> 00:07:09,423 There's a lot of, like, hope and promise in that moment 100 00:07:09,523 --> 00:07:12,622 of a future that... 101 00:07:12,722 --> 00:07:16,542 would look a lot different than it turned out to look. 102 00:07:16,642 --> 00:07:18,642 Um... 103 00:07:23,761 --> 00:07:26,541 [Vicki] Her marriage to Allan Stuckey, 104 00:07:26,641 --> 00:07:30,021 they just didn't, to me, and to a lot of people, 105 00:07:30,121 --> 00:07:33,860 didn't seem to... mash together. 106 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,100 He was into tennis in a big way. 107 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,619 But, yeah, that wasn't her thing at all. No. 108 00:07:40,719 --> 00:07:44,979 She was more literary and arty and music and... You know? 109 00:07:45,079 --> 00:07:46,139 Different. 110 00:07:46,239 --> 00:07:48,138 Yeah, they were chalk and cheese, really, 111 00:07:48,238 --> 00:07:50,458 when you analyse it like that. 112 00:07:50,558 --> 00:07:52,978 The Lismore Theatre Club 113 00:07:53,078 --> 00:07:57,477 was a very kind of vibrant community. 114 00:07:59,597 --> 00:08:02,057 I think it was a place where 115 00:08:02,157 --> 00:08:04,897 a lot of people could kind of have some fun 116 00:08:04,997 --> 00:08:07,676 and have this social connection. 117 00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:12,056 Most of our friends at that time belonged to the Theatre Club. 118 00:08:12,156 --> 00:08:16,055 [Jill] And Carolyn had never previously been in the Theatre Club. 119 00:08:16,155 --> 00:08:19,735 But I think she envied the fun we had. 120 00:08:19,835 --> 00:08:22,435 And so she auditioned. 121 00:08:23,274 --> 00:08:25,974 Is it cold being a ghost? 122 00:08:26,074 --> 00:08:27,694 No, I don't think so. 123 00:08:27,794 --> 00:08:29,414 What happens if I touch you? 124 00:08:29,514 --> 00:08:31,294 I doubt if you can. Do you want to? 125 00:08:31,394 --> 00:08:32,693 Oh, Elvira! 126 00:08:32,793 --> 00:08:36,653 [Kathryn] 'Blithe Spirit' is a play written by Noel Coward. 127 00:08:36,753 --> 00:08:40,513 It's about a man who is haunted by the ghost of his dead wife. 128 00:08:41,352 --> 00:08:43,752 The ghost is played by my mum - Carolyn. 129 00:08:44,232 --> 00:08:46,532 You are here, aren't you? You're not an illusion? 130 00:08:46,632 --> 00:08:49,691 I may be an illusion, but I'm most definitely here. 131 00:08:49,791 --> 00:08:52,951 [Kathryn] And her husband is played by Allen Ennew. 132 00:08:53,511 --> 00:08:55,211 You must promise me that in future 133 00:08:55,311 --> 00:08:57,511 you'll only come and talk to me when I'm alone. 134 00:08:58,071 --> 00:08:59,570 [man] My dear Madame Arcati. 135 00:08:59,670 --> 00:09:01,290 [woman] I'm afraid I'm rather late. 136 00:09:01,390 --> 00:09:06,210 [Kathryn] And also in this play was Allen's wife, Madeline, 137 00:09:06,310 --> 00:09:08,769 who is playing a psychic. 138 00:09:08,869 --> 00:09:11,249 I may have to go into a slight trance, 139 00:09:11,349 --> 00:09:13,789 but if I do, pay no attention. 140 00:09:35,186 --> 00:09:38,186 [sombre music plays] 141 00:09:40,426 --> 00:09:42,426 [exhales heavily] 142 00:09:44,425 --> 00:09:46,925 [Clare] The last time I was here 143 00:09:47,025 --> 00:09:50,105 was when 'Blithe Spirit' was a production. 144 00:09:58,304 --> 00:10:00,543 Mmm. There's Dad. 145 00:10:01,183 --> 00:10:04,683 It's a very typical 'Dad in Theatre Club' look. 146 00:10:04,783 --> 00:10:06,783 There's Mum. 147 00:10:08,183 --> 00:10:11,602 You know, my dad loved this place. He loved acting. 148 00:10:11,702 --> 00:10:15,602 And Mum did too. She was a good actor. 149 00:10:15,702 --> 00:10:17,702 There's the program there. 150 00:10:19,181 --> 00:10:21,181 Who's in it. 151 00:10:21,821 --> 00:10:23,481 And then... 152 00:10:23,581 --> 00:10:26,261 a bunch of photos, so... 153 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:28,440 It's this one. 154 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:32,080 There's a couple like this, with Dad and Carolyn. 155 00:10:32,180 --> 00:10:35,160 Just this moment caught where they're looking at each other 156 00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:38,939 and I just go, "Yeah." 157 00:10:39,939 --> 00:10:43,819 You know, that's the sort of vibe that my mum would've got hold of. 158 00:10:46,098 --> 00:10:48,558 Because the emotions were real, right? 159 00:10:48,658 --> 00:10:51,178 They weren't just acting. 160 00:10:54,937 --> 00:10:59,157 [Kathryn] I don't know all the details of what went on there. 161 00:10:59,257 --> 00:11:01,956 But definitely a relationship was developing 162 00:11:02,056 --> 00:11:05,276 and a friendship and an attraction. 163 00:11:05,376 --> 00:11:08,436 The silliest thing I ever did in my whole life was to love you. 164 00:11:08,536 --> 00:11:11,035 [Jill] They say a grand passion is like an insanity, 165 00:11:11,135 --> 00:11:13,115 and it was for both of them. 166 00:11:13,215 --> 00:11:16,515 I came because the power of Charles's love 167 00:11:16,615 --> 00:11:19,714 tugged and tugged and tugged at me. 168 00:11:19,814 --> 00:11:21,814 Didn't it, my sweet? 169 00:11:23,014 --> 00:11:25,594 Yes, there was a lot of sneaking around, 170 00:11:25,694 --> 00:11:27,154 which happens in an affair. 171 00:11:27,254 --> 00:11:31,093 But lots of presents and flowers and gifts. 172 00:11:32,173 --> 00:11:34,713 I did have to keep a secret. 173 00:11:34,813 --> 00:11:37,672 I could see how happy they both were. 174 00:11:37,772 --> 00:11:40,032 I mean, I cared deeply for Madeline as well, 175 00:11:40,132 --> 00:11:42,132 so that was very difficult. 176 00:11:43,012 --> 00:11:46,551 [Jill] The risks that Allen Ennew and Carolyn took, 177 00:11:46,651 --> 00:11:50,191 the notes that were left on the telegraph pole at the end of the road, 178 00:11:50,291 --> 00:11:51,671 on her car... 179 00:11:51,771 --> 00:11:55,030 I saw one at the supermarket when I was there one day. 180 00:11:55,130 --> 00:11:57,730 Walked past her car and there was one of these notes. 181 00:11:58,490 --> 00:12:01,470 [man] "My dearest, most precious Carolyn, 182 00:12:01,570 --> 00:12:03,630 "I love you." 183 00:12:03,730 --> 00:12:06,029 [woman] "You are a wonderful man. 184 00:12:06,129 --> 00:12:10,389 "Kind, thoughtful, understanding." 185 00:12:10,489 --> 00:12:13,148 [man] "I love the thoughts of our ultimate togetherness, 186 00:12:13,248 --> 00:12:15,248 "which I now see as inevitable." 187 00:12:15,808 --> 00:12:19,068 Allen Ennew had moved out of his home 188 00:12:19,168 --> 00:12:22,427 and had rented a little flat. 189 00:12:22,527 --> 00:12:25,627 Madeline wasn't coping at all. 190 00:12:25,727 --> 00:12:28,567 She lost a lot of weight very quickly. 191 00:12:29,647 --> 00:12:33,286 [Jill] I remember one day she told me she was going to kill herself. 192 00:12:34,326 --> 00:12:36,426 I said, "Oh, you can't do that." 193 00:12:36,526 --> 00:12:39,065 Her two boys were at university in Sydney. 194 00:12:39,165 --> 00:12:41,745 Her daughter, Clare, was 18. 195 00:12:41,845 --> 00:12:44,225 She said she couldn't be jilted, 196 00:12:44,325 --> 00:12:46,065 she couldn't be left on her own 197 00:12:46,165 --> 00:12:49,384 as someone left for the younger person. 198 00:12:49,484 --> 00:12:51,784 She couldn't deal with that humiliation. 199 00:12:51,884 --> 00:12:55,984 And I spoke to my GP, and he said what people used to say in those days. 200 00:12:56,084 --> 00:12:59,663 He said, "Oh, if they talk about it, they don't do it." 201 00:12:59,763 --> 00:13:02,663 And he was a well-meaning man, 202 00:13:02,763 --> 00:13:05,303 but that was wrong. 203 00:13:05,403 --> 00:13:07,182 Allen found the body. 204 00:13:07,282 --> 00:13:10,902 And she'd organised so that Clare wasn't home that night. 205 00:13:11,002 --> 00:13:15,421 And, sure enough, everything in the house was tip-top. 206 00:13:15,521 --> 00:13:18,721 Food was made for her own funeral. 207 00:13:19,321 --> 00:13:21,321 [sniffles] 208 00:13:22,481 --> 00:13:26,380 In her letter to me, 'cause she wrote suicide letters, 209 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,060 she told me not to blame my father, and, honestly, I don't. 210 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,499 I don't blame anyone in this story. 211 00:13:33,599 --> 00:13:39,699 It's just really hard being the child of that story. 212 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:41,798 You know? 213 00:13:42,198 --> 00:13:45,738 It's all very tragic to think about the fact 214 00:13:45,838 --> 00:13:49,817 that these two women in this play are now dead, 215 00:13:49,917 --> 00:13:52,037 and the ways that they died. 216 00:13:56,997 --> 00:14:00,816 Carolyn was... she was devastated by it 217 00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:03,336 and felt incredible guilt. 218 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:05,976 I would say that Allen Ennew, 219 00:14:06,076 --> 00:14:08,575 he was very sad about Madeline 220 00:14:08,675 --> 00:14:11,135 and it was a traumatic and hideous thing that happened 221 00:14:11,235 --> 00:14:13,235 and he found her. 222 00:14:13,795 --> 00:14:16,094 But he was so obsessed 223 00:14:16,194 --> 00:14:18,814 with the fact that one day Carolyn would come to him, 224 00:14:18,914 --> 00:14:21,534 and so he bought this big house. 225 00:14:21,634 --> 00:14:23,694 That was going to be the home with lots of bedrooms 226 00:14:23,794 --> 00:14:25,013 so that they could have 227 00:14:25,113 --> 00:14:27,333 all their children there eventually at times. 228 00:14:27,433 --> 00:14:28,653 That was his idea. 229 00:14:28,753 --> 00:14:30,493 No one wanted to be divorced. 230 00:14:30,593 --> 00:14:32,333 No one wanted to leave their husband. 231 00:14:32,433 --> 00:14:35,652 Because there was a lot of stigma in the community. 232 00:14:35,752 --> 00:14:39,092 Not today, but back in the '70s, dead right. 233 00:14:39,192 --> 00:14:40,572 And '80s. 234 00:14:40,672 --> 00:14:42,372 If she left the marriage, 235 00:14:42,472 --> 00:14:48,971 she was concerned what, I guess, the parents of her students, the church... 236 00:14:49,071 --> 00:14:51,690 She felt enormous shame 237 00:14:51,790 --> 00:14:54,210 for going against what she'd been taught 238 00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:56,250 as far as her religion was concerned. 239 00:14:56,350 --> 00:15:00,249 Religion was a big part of growing up in the '50s and '60s. 240 00:15:00,349 --> 00:15:02,129 Huge. You know? Everybody. 241 00:15:02,229 --> 00:15:04,469 It was rare for a family not to go to church. 242 00:15:07,029 --> 00:15:10,208 [Jill] When she told us that Allan Stuckey had found out, 243 00:15:10,308 --> 00:15:12,728 I thought, "Right, now, something will happen now. 244 00:15:12,828 --> 00:15:15,768 "Either she will stay with him or she'll go with Allen Ennew." 245 00:15:15,868 --> 00:15:19,367 But at least it's not this terrible, dangerous game 246 00:15:19,467 --> 00:15:21,467 that they were still playing. 247 00:15:22,947 --> 00:15:25,287 [man] "You've distanced yourself and made me resentful 248 00:15:25,387 --> 00:15:27,586 "by taunting me with Allen Ennew. 249 00:15:28,666 --> 00:15:30,686 "If you do not love me, 250 00:15:30,786 --> 00:15:34,426 "then I cannot go on to even try to work things out." 251 00:15:35,705 --> 00:15:38,805 My mum decided to stay with my dad. 252 00:15:38,905 --> 00:15:42,925 And he made her swear on the Bible 253 00:15:43,025 --> 00:15:45,864 and he wrote vows for her to take. 254 00:15:49,544 --> 00:15:54,283 [woman] "I swear never to say or do anything again to hurt you." 255 00:15:54,383 --> 00:15:59,103 "I swear never to lie to my husband Allan ever again." 256 00:16:00,263 --> 00:16:04,122 "I swear that the affair is over completely 257 00:16:04,222 --> 00:16:07,762 "and that I will never do anything directly or indirectly 258 00:16:07,862 --> 00:16:11,441 "to have any type of relationship with him again. 259 00:16:11,541 --> 00:16:16,161 "I swear to love, honour and cherish you 260 00:16:16,261 --> 00:16:18,261 "for the rest of my days." 261 00:16:19,301 --> 00:16:23,680 I asked her if she was worried for her own safety. 262 00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:26,040 And she said no. No. 263 00:16:26,140 --> 00:16:30,739 She said, "I'm not. But I am worried what he might do to Allen Ennew." 264 00:16:32,139 --> 00:16:34,759 [man] "Allen, if you should have any thoughts 265 00:16:34,859 --> 00:16:36,999 "of trying to rekindle the relationship 266 00:16:37,099 --> 00:16:39,478 "or even getting in touch with her in any way, 267 00:16:39,578 --> 00:16:43,218 "then I will tell you now you will join your wife." 268 00:16:45,578 --> 00:16:48,277 [Vicki] But she was very unhappy. 269 00:16:48,377 --> 00:16:51,797 She... Well, she'd just had a baby. 270 00:16:51,897 --> 00:16:53,897 Um... 271 00:16:54,457 --> 00:16:56,516 It must've been so stressful for her. 272 00:16:56,616 --> 00:16:59,016 And she had two little boys as well. 273 00:17:03,855 --> 00:17:06,035 [woman] "My darling Allen, 274 00:17:06,135 --> 00:17:09,875 "to choose to go to you meant the disruption of a family, 275 00:17:09,975 --> 00:17:13,654 "gossip and talk about the cause of Madeline's death. 276 00:17:15,614 --> 00:17:20,714 "To stay with Allan meant unbearable pain for you. 277 00:17:20,814 --> 00:17:23,033 "For me, it meant an ache inside 278 00:17:23,133 --> 00:17:27,533 "which I know will be with me every day for the rest of my life." 279 00:17:28,893 --> 00:17:31,072 She'd supposedly broken off with Allen Ennew, 280 00:17:31,172 --> 00:17:32,552 it was over, 281 00:17:32,652 --> 00:17:34,352 suddenly she was seeing him again. 282 00:17:34,452 --> 00:17:39,951 And I said, "Allan Stuckey will not let her go without a fight." 283 00:17:40,051 --> 00:17:41,711 We always knew 284 00:17:41,811 --> 00:17:47,670 that he was a man who would not be able to accept it. 285 00:17:47,770 --> 00:17:50,330 Like a lot of people, I suppose. 286 00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:55,990 And then he puts a private detective on her? Good God! 287 00:17:56,090 --> 00:18:00,989 She thought Allan Stuckey had, um, been having her followed. 288 00:18:01,089 --> 00:18:03,749 I think she said a "little grey Volkswagen". 289 00:18:03,849 --> 00:18:05,848 "I think I'm being followed." 290 00:18:06,488 --> 00:18:10,788 Um, to which I just thought, "Oh, my God, where's that gonna go?" 291 00:18:10,888 --> 00:18:14,267 There's absolutely no excuse for that behaviour. 292 00:18:14,367 --> 00:18:16,707 Monitoring someone's movements 293 00:18:16,807 --> 00:18:20,347 is a huge indicator of family violence, of coercive control. 294 00:18:20,447 --> 00:18:23,226 I find it really disturbing that he did that. 295 00:18:23,326 --> 00:18:26,366 That he felt justified in doing that. 296 00:18:40,565 --> 00:18:42,184 [man] "My darling, 297 00:18:42,284 --> 00:18:46,264 "I'm going to ask you again for the complete peace of mind - 298 00:18:46,364 --> 00:18:50,023 "have you had any contact since your vows? 299 00:18:50,123 --> 00:18:55,503 "I beg you, I implore you, do not tell me a lie." 300 00:18:55,603 --> 00:18:59,602 "It is the most important question you will ever answer." 301 00:19:01,642 --> 00:19:04,682 "All I know is I love you more than anything. 302 00:19:05,642 --> 00:19:07,641 "Allan." 303 00:19:10,281 --> 00:19:14,981 I happened to be in the station on 31st January 1985 304 00:19:15,081 --> 00:19:18,820 when the phone rang, and I answered it. 305 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,580 There was a male voice on the other end of the phone. 306 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,540 Very calmly said, 307 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:30,339 "It's Allan Stuckey from 5 Banksia Court, Lismore Heights." 308 00:19:30,439 --> 00:19:33,259 And I said, "Yes, Allan, how can we help you?" 309 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,178 And he said, "You'd better come up. I've just shot my wife." 310 00:19:38,278 --> 00:19:40,818 You know, when you did your training at the Police Academy 311 00:19:40,918 --> 00:19:43,297 one of the things that I do remember very clearly 312 00:19:43,397 --> 00:19:45,737 that they instilled in young police 313 00:19:45,837 --> 00:19:50,497 was that domestic violence incidents, attending those 314 00:19:50,597 --> 00:19:53,596 was the most dangerous situation that we would go to. 315 00:19:55,756 --> 00:19:59,056 Of course, you know, I was anxious 316 00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:01,455 approaching the house under those circumstances. 317 00:20:01,555 --> 00:20:04,415 And, you know, we went into the house 318 00:20:04,515 --> 00:20:08,575 and Allan Stuckey was sitting in the kitchen at a bench. 319 00:20:08,675 --> 00:20:14,654 He was just sitting there calmly, sipping coffee from a mug 320 00:20:14,754 --> 00:20:17,134 as though nothing had happened. 321 00:20:17,234 --> 00:20:19,913 It was... Yeah, it was quite surreal. 322 00:20:25,073 --> 00:20:30,652 I walked into the main bedroom and there was a double bed to the right. 323 00:20:30,752 --> 00:20:36,291 At the foot of the bed was a female person. 324 00:20:36,391 --> 00:20:39,931 It was quite shocking, obviously, what had happened, to start with, 325 00:20:40,031 --> 00:20:42,531 but also having the, you know, 326 00:20:42,631 --> 00:20:45,650 the three children in the house at the time. 327 00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:47,970 And... yeah. 328 00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:55,009 By good fortune, perhaps, nothing happened to them at the time. 329 00:20:55,109 --> 00:20:58,409 I was teaching down the other end of the peninsula here. 330 00:20:58,509 --> 00:21:01,449 Out on the playground on duty and my husband pulled up. 331 00:21:01,549 --> 00:21:03,048 I said, "What are you doing here?" 332 00:21:03,148 --> 00:21:06,568 He said, "Oh, I've got some terrible news to tell you." 333 00:21:06,668 --> 00:21:10,328 I turned the radio on. Next to the bed. 334 00:21:10,428 --> 00:21:12,607 And it said, uh... 335 00:21:12,707 --> 00:21:18,527 that a 32-year-old Lismore woman had been shot dead overnight. 336 00:21:18,627 --> 00:21:21,186 Police were at the scene in Goonellabah. 337 00:21:22,146 --> 00:21:24,146 And we knew. 338 00:21:25,666 --> 00:21:28,085 It was fairly hysterical in our house. There was... 339 00:21:28,185 --> 00:21:30,005 We were incredibly upset. 340 00:21:30,105 --> 00:21:32,325 Allan had killed Carolyn. 341 00:21:32,425 --> 00:21:36,405 And, as a child, I just had no concept 342 00:21:36,505 --> 00:21:39,564 of what that... how that could happen. 343 00:21:39,664 --> 00:21:41,364 I can still remember the feeling 344 00:21:41,464 --> 00:21:45,723 and thinking, "Oh, my God, I could've stopped this." 345 00:21:45,823 --> 00:21:50,523 That was something I think a lot of people thought. 346 00:21:50,623 --> 00:21:53,043 In a case like that, a murder, 347 00:21:53,143 --> 00:21:56,722 or an unlawful killing of someone, 348 00:21:56,822 --> 00:21:59,882 we call out the detectives, they come to the scene, 349 00:21:59,982 --> 00:22:02,042 they take over the investigation. 350 00:22:02,142 --> 00:22:06,361 The lead investigator was Detective Sergeant Don Cuell. 351 00:22:06,461 --> 00:22:08,961 Senior Constable Will Palmer rang me at home. 352 00:22:09,061 --> 00:22:14,520 Told me that there'd been a shooting and a lady was deceased. 353 00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:17,120 We, uh, went back to the police station 354 00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:20,120 where he was interviewed in the presence of his solicitor. 355 00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:22,279 Given some of the answers and whatnot, 356 00:22:22,379 --> 00:22:27,399 I'd say that he'd ran through a lot of the possible situations 357 00:22:27,499 --> 00:22:29,199 with his solicitor prior. 358 00:22:29,299 --> 00:22:31,278 Which he's entitled to do. 359 00:22:31,378 --> 00:22:33,758 [policeman] For the information of this record of interview, 360 00:22:33,858 --> 00:22:35,318 what is your full name? 361 00:22:35,418 --> 00:22:37,158 [man] Allan James Stuckey. 362 00:22:37,258 --> 00:22:39,717 I had reason to doubt her fidelity, 363 00:22:39,817 --> 00:22:43,117 and I engaged a private investigator to check her movements. 364 00:22:43,217 --> 00:22:44,877 [policeman] Can you tell me what happened? 365 00:22:44,977 --> 00:22:47,876 [man] She admitted that she had been with Allen Ennew on that day. 366 00:22:47,976 --> 00:22:49,596 She said she couldn't give him up. 367 00:22:49,696 --> 00:22:51,036 [policeman] What did you do? 368 00:22:51,136 --> 00:22:54,516 [man] I took the rifle from my study and raced back to the bedroom. 369 00:22:54,616 --> 00:22:57,195 She screamed and grabbed the barrel of the rifle 370 00:22:57,295 --> 00:22:58,635 and we struggled. 371 00:22:58,735 --> 00:23:00,195 Shots were fired. 372 00:23:00,295 --> 00:23:01,995 [policeman] When did you load this rifle? 373 00:23:02,095 --> 00:23:04,675 [man] I was going to shoot a flying fox a couple of months ago, 374 00:23:04,775 --> 00:23:05,994 and that's when. 375 00:23:06,094 --> 00:23:07,954 [policeman] Did you leave the magazine loaded 376 00:23:08,054 --> 00:23:11,034 with live cartridges in this rifle in your study? 377 00:23:11,134 --> 00:23:13,394 [man] Yes, but it was right back behind the bed 378 00:23:13,494 --> 00:23:15,753 so that it's not easy for anybody to get at. 379 00:23:15,853 --> 00:23:17,313 [policeman] What happened then? 380 00:23:17,413 --> 00:23:19,473 [man] I had a shower and tried to compose my mind 381 00:23:19,573 --> 00:23:21,993 and work out if I should kill myself or not. 382 00:23:22,093 --> 00:23:25,872 I rang my sister to ask her to come and collect my children 383 00:23:25,972 --> 00:23:28,672 and it occurred to me that there was a debt that I hadn't paid, 384 00:23:28,772 --> 00:23:30,712 and that was to the private investigator. 385 00:23:30,812 --> 00:23:34,791 And I rang his residence to tell him that his money was in the work safe. 386 00:23:34,891 --> 00:23:37,831 I didn't want to feel that I had left some money owing. 387 00:23:37,931 --> 00:23:39,511 [policeman] You have explained to us 388 00:23:39,611 --> 00:23:41,790 your wife's affair with the person Allen Ennew. 389 00:23:41,890 --> 00:23:45,750 Is that the only reason you can give us for this shooting having taken place? 390 00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:48,310 [man] Yes. And considerations allied to it, yes. 391 00:23:48,410 --> 00:23:52,389 [policeman] Is there anything further you wish to say in relation to this matter? 392 00:23:52,489 --> 00:23:55,769 [man] Just that the affair has been going on for two years. 393 00:23:56,489 --> 00:23:58,488 That's all. 394 00:24:01,728 --> 00:24:04,388 [Kathryn] I was three months old. 395 00:24:04,488 --> 00:24:07,987 My brothers were four and eight. 396 00:24:08,087 --> 00:24:12,027 And to have the children in the house when he did it. 397 00:24:12,127 --> 00:24:16,106 I mean... you can't imagine that scene. 398 00:24:16,206 --> 00:24:19,786 I don't think you can make sense of it. It's unforgivable. 399 00:24:19,886 --> 00:24:21,706 Should never have happened. 400 00:24:21,806 --> 00:24:23,906 Um... 401 00:24:24,006 --> 00:24:25,385 I mean, 402 00:24:25,485 --> 00:24:28,865 the type of thing that was going on happens all the time. 403 00:24:28,965 --> 00:24:31,105 People don't die for it. 404 00:24:31,205 --> 00:24:36,724 After he was charged with murder, Allan Stuckey was bailed. 405 00:24:37,524 --> 00:24:40,704 The reason he would've got bail is because of his standing in the community. 406 00:24:40,804 --> 00:24:44,063 He was a chemist. No prior convictions. 407 00:24:44,163 --> 00:24:47,983 His young children were still there and he's not gonna decamp. 408 00:24:48,083 --> 00:24:52,742 So Stuckey got bail. Went back to work, I think. 409 00:24:52,842 --> 00:24:55,382 Well, my dad was charged with murder. 410 00:24:55,482 --> 00:24:56,862 Um... 411 00:24:56,962 --> 00:25:00,581 But the trial wasn't for a year and a half. 412 00:25:00,681 --> 00:25:02,901 It was quite surprising to me, I think, 413 00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,661 when I realised that 414 00:25:05,761 --> 00:25:10,040 my brothers and I were at home with my dad a lot of that time. 415 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:15,820 He was able to get out, resume a normal life 416 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,619 with his children, with his three young children, 417 00:25:18,719 --> 00:25:21,499 back in his house in Lismore Heights 418 00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:26,378 and go back as a practising pharmacist of all things. 419 00:25:26,478 --> 00:25:30,058 Despite the fact that he had killed Carolyn 420 00:25:30,158 --> 00:25:35,977 he still had the legal right to dispose of her body as her husband. 421 00:25:36,077 --> 00:25:40,657 And he just simply had her cremated instantly 422 00:25:40,757 --> 00:25:43,017 with no ceremony. 423 00:25:43,117 --> 00:25:49,936 And nobody had a chance to recognise 424 00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:54,095 what had happened or to say goodbye to her. 425 00:25:54,195 --> 00:25:57,315 It was just as though she'd been put out with the rubbish. 426 00:25:58,075 --> 00:26:03,094 I've always wanted to know everything about it. 427 00:26:03,194 --> 00:26:05,414 You know, like, everything surrounding it. 428 00:26:05,514 --> 00:26:08,254 And I've always wanted to know 429 00:26:08,354 --> 00:26:10,653 what happened, how it happened, 430 00:26:10,753 --> 00:26:12,753 why it happened. 431 00:26:16,353 --> 00:26:19,872 That's been a lifelong journey. 432 00:26:23,112 --> 00:26:28,211 I want to understand where we were and where I was 433 00:26:28,311 --> 00:26:30,291 and what happened afterwards, 434 00:26:30,391 --> 00:26:33,271 and why the decisions that were made were made. 435 00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:44,210 So, part of it is just wanting to know about my own life 436 00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:48,029 and know information and put those puzzle pieces together. 437 00:26:52,469 --> 00:26:55,188 [woman] So, this is the trial transcript. 438 00:26:58,948 --> 00:27:02,208 And are you feeling okay about looking at it now? 439 00:27:02,308 --> 00:27:04,767 I am. I feel a little bit nervous about it. 440 00:27:04,867 --> 00:27:06,807 - Mmm. - Um... I don't know. 441 00:27:06,907 --> 00:27:09,167 There's a part of me that sort of wants information 442 00:27:09,267 --> 00:27:11,247 and, like, sort of wants to look at it 443 00:27:11,347 --> 00:27:14,966 and then a part of me that finds it quite, you know, upsetting. 444 00:27:15,066 --> 00:27:16,726 - Absolutely. - So, um... 445 00:27:16,826 --> 00:27:18,926 So, in this trial 446 00:27:19,026 --> 00:27:24,845 your father argued that he acted in response to provocation. 447 00:27:24,945 --> 00:27:28,965 The provocation in this case was said to be 448 00:27:29,065 --> 00:27:32,804 that Carolyn was having an affair. 449 00:27:32,904 --> 00:27:39,123 They're arguing that a person's actions contributed to their death. 450 00:27:39,223 --> 00:27:40,203 Yeah. 451 00:27:40,303 --> 00:27:44,203 The provocation defence is actually a partial defence. 452 00:27:44,303 --> 00:27:49,562 It will reduce your culpability from murder to manslaughter. 453 00:27:49,662 --> 00:27:54,082 The guideline of the provocation and the evidence required 454 00:27:54,182 --> 00:27:58,161 is that it comes back to what an ordinary person would do 455 00:27:58,261 --> 00:28:00,001 under those circumstances. 456 00:28:00,101 --> 00:28:01,881 So, in other words, you and I, 457 00:28:01,981 --> 00:28:06,920 would we react the same way as Allan Stuckey acted 458 00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:08,840 given the circumstances? 459 00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:11,520 People's marriages break down. 460 00:28:11,620 --> 00:28:13,160 I'm a lawyer. 461 00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:16,799 And I hate being a family lawyer, but somebody's gotta do it. 462 00:28:16,899 --> 00:28:19,599 And it happens all the time. 463 00:28:19,699 --> 00:28:22,698 But you don't turn around and kill your spouse. 464 00:28:28,218 --> 00:28:29,918 [man 1] Your full name is? 465 00:28:30,018 --> 00:28:31,997 [man 2] William Arthur Barclay. 466 00:28:32,097 --> 00:28:35,197 A consultant psychiatrist now in private practice. 467 00:28:35,297 --> 00:28:39,157 [man 1] Are you able to express an opinion as to whether that conduct 468 00:28:39,257 --> 00:28:43,636 could have induced an ordinary person to lose self-control 469 00:28:43,736 --> 00:28:45,956 in psychiatric terms? 470 00:28:46,056 --> 00:28:48,636 [man 2] Yes, I believe so. 471 00:28:48,736 --> 00:28:55,635 There was a certain element of, um, if someone was wronged in that way 472 00:28:55,735 --> 00:28:59,154 then they could be excused for not being able to control themselves. 473 00:28:59,254 --> 00:29:05,154 Does an ordinary person get a gun, which is already in the house, loaded, 474 00:29:05,254 --> 00:29:07,773 with three young children in the place? 475 00:29:08,613 --> 00:29:10,393 Does an ordinary person do that? 476 00:29:10,493 --> 00:29:14,233 And does an ordinary person shoot his wife? 477 00:29:14,333 --> 00:29:17,112 And does an ordinary person have a shower, 478 00:29:17,212 --> 00:29:18,912 ring a friend, ring his solicitor? 479 00:29:19,012 --> 00:29:21,432 Does an ordinary person do that? 480 00:29:21,532 --> 00:29:24,192 The person that they've killed is no longer able 481 00:29:24,292 --> 00:29:27,831 to give their side of the story or talk about what they went through. 482 00:29:27,931 --> 00:29:30,591 - Mmm. - It's very one sided. 483 00:29:30,691 --> 00:29:34,270 And it's highly critical of that person. 484 00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:37,550 And then at the same time you also get people giving evidence 485 00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:41,510 about the positive characteristics of the accused. 486 00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:43,349 [Kathryn] Yeah. 487 00:29:43,449 --> 00:29:45,389 [man] When you spoke to your brother, 488 00:29:45,489 --> 00:29:48,709 can you describe how he appeared to you to be? 489 00:29:48,809 --> 00:29:50,549 [woman] Extremely upset. 490 00:29:50,649 --> 00:29:53,628 [man] What sort of person is your brother? 491 00:29:53,728 --> 00:29:56,228 [woman] A very serious minded, 492 00:29:56,328 --> 00:29:59,947 very moral, quiet, shy, 493 00:30:00,047 --> 00:30:02,307 very idealistic person. 494 00:30:02,407 --> 00:30:05,107 I also think very naive. 495 00:30:05,207 --> 00:30:07,707 [man] Is he a violent sort of person? 496 00:30:07,807 --> 00:30:10,266 [woman] No, no, not at all. 497 00:30:10,366 --> 00:30:13,546 He loved the children, he always has. 498 00:30:13,646 --> 00:30:18,345 [man] Did he ever express to you the view he took of marriage? 499 00:30:18,445 --> 00:30:21,085 [woman] That marriage is a sacred thing. 500 00:30:23,125 --> 00:30:24,905 [Kathryn] It seemed so odd to me 501 00:30:25,005 --> 00:30:29,704 that none of her friends got to speak for her, at least. 502 00:30:29,804 --> 00:30:31,544 Because she wasn't able to speak. 503 00:30:31,644 --> 00:30:35,543 So, it's like there were other people who could've at least 504 00:30:35,643 --> 00:30:38,263 spoke to her character 505 00:30:38,363 --> 00:30:43,902 and given some indication of what she was going through. 506 00:30:44,002 --> 00:30:45,382 I just... Yeah. 507 00:30:45,482 --> 00:30:49,102 Yeah, it becomes a very one-sided sort of view of what happens 508 00:30:49,202 --> 00:30:50,622 in that situation. 509 00:30:50,722 --> 00:30:52,422 - Doesn't it? - Yeah. Yeah. 510 00:30:52,522 --> 00:30:57,501 Sometimes the prosecution could go much further 511 00:30:57,601 --> 00:30:59,381 in the way that they approach this 512 00:30:59,481 --> 00:31:01,261 and in trying to ask questions 513 00:31:01,361 --> 00:31:04,540 and get more information about that context. 514 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,180 They don't always understand the dynamics of family violence themselves 515 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,779 and the importance of it 516 00:31:11,879 --> 00:31:15,899 for understanding what happens in domestic homicides. 517 00:31:15,999 --> 00:31:20,658 What we really needed in this trial as far as the prosecution was concerned, 518 00:31:20,758 --> 00:31:23,018 we needed someone that was going to get in there 519 00:31:23,118 --> 00:31:25,978 and fight like a bulldog and shake their head and carry on. 520 00:31:26,078 --> 00:31:29,637 And unfortunately we finished up with a golden retriever. 521 00:31:30,637 --> 00:31:33,857 I was appalled at the lack of prosecution. 522 00:31:33,957 --> 00:31:36,377 I mean, I remember sitting in the back of the court 523 00:31:36,477 --> 00:31:38,696 and just thinking, "Oh, my God!" 524 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:41,136 The worst thing about trying to recover from this 525 00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:43,496 for all of us 526 00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:48,455 was that there was so much shock and horror 527 00:31:48,555 --> 00:31:52,015 because she was this "scarlet woman". 528 00:31:52,115 --> 00:31:55,814 We would hear, indirectly, 529 00:31:55,914 --> 00:31:59,934 about the outrage, about what this woman had done to this poor chap, 530 00:32:00,034 --> 00:32:03,533 not what this chap had done to this poor woman. 531 00:32:03,633 --> 00:32:08,733 Yeah, I just think there was this mind-set that... 532 00:32:08,833 --> 00:32:12,732 she's the villain in all this, she's done the wrong thing. 533 00:32:12,832 --> 00:32:14,852 And, in a sense - I hate to say it - 534 00:32:14,952 --> 00:32:20,392 but some of those people, I'm sure, think she got what she deserved. 535 00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:40,169 [Deborah] So there's quite a lot of evidence 536 00:32:40,269 --> 00:32:42,249 in relation to the ballistics, 537 00:32:42,349 --> 00:32:47,508 what sort of weapon was used and how that weapon is operated. 538 00:32:50,988 --> 00:32:54,128 [Don] Carolyn was shot three times. 539 00:32:54,228 --> 00:32:56,447 Once in the abdomen, twice in the head. 540 00:32:56,547 --> 00:32:59,427 Oh. This one's gonna be really graphic. 541 00:33:04,027 --> 00:33:07,046 [Don] After the first shot, she's wounded and lying on the floor. 542 00:33:07,146 --> 00:33:10,406 And she wouldn't have died from that shot either, the doctors have said. 543 00:33:10,506 --> 00:33:14,325 Surely, he should've realised what he's doing. 544 00:33:14,425 --> 00:33:18,085 Two more times he cocked that gun and fired it again. 545 00:33:18,185 --> 00:33:21,565 And this is a bolt-action gun. A bolt-action .22 rifle. 546 00:33:21,665 --> 00:33:24,964 So, it's not like a semi-automatic where you just have to pull the trigger. 547 00:33:25,064 --> 00:33:31,643 There was a manual requirement to reload that gun. 548 00:33:31,743 --> 00:33:34,983 Or you could probably just do it like that. That's one. Bang! 549 00:33:35,783 --> 00:33:36,843 Two. 550 00:33:36,943 --> 00:33:40,262 It's a very deliberate action. That's what I'm trying to say. 551 00:33:46,342 --> 00:33:48,842 [Deborah] Yeah, there is quite a lot in the trial transcript 552 00:33:48,942 --> 00:33:52,681 about whereabouts in the house the shooting occurred. 553 00:33:52,781 --> 00:33:56,881 There's a map that's been provided as part of the evidence. 554 00:33:56,981 --> 00:33:59,740 Let's see that there. 555 00:34:00,780 --> 00:34:02,680 This was my bedroom. 556 00:34:02,780 --> 00:34:06,360 This is my dad's room still. All the way through my life. 557 00:34:06,460 --> 00:34:10,939 I go into this room every day that she was... 558 00:34:11,779 --> 00:34:13,959 you know, lying here dying. 559 00:34:14,059 --> 00:34:15,758 And just... 560 00:34:15,858 --> 00:34:19,178 - [Deborah] Yeah, that's horrible. - Yeah. It's awful. 561 00:34:27,337 --> 00:34:31,077 [man] He was, undoubtedly, at all times a man of exceptional character 562 00:34:31,177 --> 00:34:34,096 and obvious good standing in the community. 563 00:34:35,096 --> 00:34:38,356 The prisoner's control of himself over a lengthy period 564 00:34:38,456 --> 00:34:39,916 ultimately snapped 565 00:34:40,016 --> 00:34:43,475 when his wife told him she could not give up her lover. 566 00:34:43,575 --> 00:34:45,195 In the circumstances, 567 00:34:45,295 --> 00:34:48,875 some response on his part would not have been unreasonable. 568 00:34:48,975 --> 00:34:52,794 However, to shoot the deceased three times 569 00:34:52,894 --> 00:34:56,994 was hardly proportionate to the devastating verbal message. 570 00:34:57,094 --> 00:35:01,033 It was greater than the circumstances warranted. 571 00:35:01,133 --> 00:35:06,033 In my view, the prisoner is unlikely to again offend against the law. 572 00:35:06,133 --> 00:35:08,552 The prisoner's strong, subjective matters, 573 00:35:08,652 --> 00:35:10,472 unlike many other cases, 574 00:35:10,572 --> 00:35:14,072 provide the basis for specifying a non-parole period 575 00:35:14,172 --> 00:35:15,912 which will give him the opportunity 576 00:35:16,012 --> 00:35:19,871 of resuming his life in the community and with his children 577 00:35:19,971 --> 00:35:22,251 at a reasonably early time. 578 00:35:22,851 --> 00:35:25,191 Allan James Stuckey, 579 00:35:25,291 --> 00:35:28,590 on the charge on which the jury has convicted you, 580 00:35:28,690 --> 00:35:32,670 I sentence you to penal servitude for eight years. 581 00:35:32,770 --> 00:35:36,669 I specify a non-parole period of three years. 582 00:35:36,769 --> 00:35:38,709 [hushed murmuring] 583 00:35:38,809 --> 00:35:40,789 "She, like, sort of made me do it. 584 00:35:40,889 --> 00:35:43,668 "She ran off... you know, went off with another man." 585 00:35:43,768 --> 00:35:47,048 It was all, "Poor me, poor me, I'm the victim here." 586 00:35:48,608 --> 00:35:52,408 Yeah, it makes me really furious, actually. 587 00:35:53,367 --> 00:35:57,387 I have difficulty reconciling the fact 588 00:35:57,487 --> 00:36:00,627 that this matter resulted in a conviction for manslaughter. 589 00:36:00,727 --> 00:36:01,866 I really do. 590 00:36:01,966 --> 00:36:04,106 But, of course, I have to accept the court's decision. 591 00:36:04,206 --> 00:36:06,406 That's the system of justice that we have in this country. 592 00:36:06,886 --> 00:36:11,225 Even though we don't have provocation defence available 593 00:36:11,325 --> 00:36:13,265 in most states in Australia anymore, 594 00:36:13,365 --> 00:36:17,305 we still see the same explanations 595 00:36:17,405 --> 00:36:21,304 for why men acted the way they did in these cases. 596 00:36:21,404 --> 00:36:24,064 The provocation narrative can still be used 597 00:36:24,164 --> 00:36:25,984 to understand their actions 598 00:36:26,084 --> 00:36:28,143 when they're considering sentencing. 599 00:36:28,243 --> 00:36:30,663 I asked him one time, like... 600 00:36:30,763 --> 00:36:33,543 said something about the fact that he had never apologised to us. 601 00:36:33,643 --> 00:36:36,463 And he was, like, "I don't owe you or anyone an apology." 602 00:36:36,563 --> 00:36:38,742 - [Deborah] Wow. - Like... 603 00:36:38,842 --> 00:36:41,902 The absence of the impact on the children 604 00:36:42,002 --> 00:36:45,781 - is really striking as well. - Yeah. 605 00:36:45,881 --> 00:36:50,061 It felt like a real sense of, like, what's best for my father 606 00:36:50,161 --> 00:36:51,821 and really centred around him 607 00:36:51,921 --> 00:36:54,300 rather than thinking about us 608 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,340 and the long-term impacts of the decisions that were made. 609 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,819 The actual conclusion of that drama 610 00:37:03,919 --> 00:37:08,559 was catastrophic for the children especially. 611 00:37:24,357 --> 00:37:26,697 So these are, um, letters 612 00:37:26,797 --> 00:37:31,056 that my dad wrote me when he was in prison. 613 00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:35,976 So I was probably about two or three years old. 614 00:37:36,076 --> 00:37:38,555 Most of them are, um... 615 00:37:40,595 --> 00:37:45,215 ...like, pictures of birds that my dad has drawn. 616 00:37:45,315 --> 00:37:47,314 Or trees. 617 00:37:47,714 --> 00:37:49,014 "Dear Kathryn, 618 00:37:49,114 --> 00:37:52,414 "it is Sunday here as I'm writing this and the weather is very poor. 619 00:37:52,514 --> 00:37:55,054 "There is a big fog all over the camp 620 00:37:55,154 --> 00:37:57,813 "and it is just so thick it is almost like rain. 621 00:37:57,913 --> 00:37:59,893 "This is a kookaburra. 622 00:37:59,993 --> 00:38:02,413 "See his big, strong beak for eating meat. 623 00:38:02,513 --> 00:38:04,213 "Sometimes they eat snakes 624 00:38:04,313 --> 00:38:06,532 "and their song is just like a laugh. 625 00:38:06,632 --> 00:38:08,632 "Love, Dad." 626 00:38:17,431 --> 00:38:21,391 My father served 22 months for killing my mother. 627 00:38:22,430 --> 00:38:26,490 On his release, my brothers and I went back to live with him. 628 00:38:26,590 --> 00:38:28,830 I was about four years old. 629 00:38:31,669 --> 00:38:35,809 [Jan] I was appalled that he could be given custody of the children. 630 00:38:35,909 --> 00:38:40,328 I cannot understand how the court made an order 631 00:38:40,428 --> 00:38:43,388 that she was to live with her father. 632 00:38:44,628 --> 00:38:49,007 I really cannot understand that. 633 00:38:49,107 --> 00:38:53,507 So, this is a picture of me in primary school. 634 00:38:54,747 --> 00:38:56,607 I excelled at school 635 00:38:56,707 --> 00:38:59,406 and I had a lot of friends and I enjoyed it. 636 00:38:59,506 --> 00:39:04,286 But it felt like a different world when I went home. 637 00:39:04,386 --> 00:39:06,685 I felt a real disconnect between 638 00:39:06,785 --> 00:39:11,265 what I was showing people and what I was experiencing internally. 639 00:39:14,185 --> 00:39:17,584 I wasn't allowed to talk about my mother. 640 00:39:20,424 --> 00:39:24,083 There weren't photos. There weren't stories. 641 00:39:24,183 --> 00:39:28,203 I didn't have any sense of who she was. 642 00:39:28,303 --> 00:39:31,023 Her name was never mentioned. 643 00:39:33,862 --> 00:39:35,762 The story that I was told 644 00:39:35,862 --> 00:39:40,402 was that she had done this awful thing, 645 00:39:40,502 --> 00:39:44,521 he had snapped and then he killed her 646 00:39:44,621 --> 00:39:49,261 and really framed as this sort of accident. 647 00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:56,560 I feel like there was a really significant shift 648 00:39:56,660 --> 00:39:59,000 in my relationship with my dad 649 00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:01,959 when I went to high school. 650 00:40:02,059 --> 00:40:07,619 I really felt like I'd become someone that he really didn't like. 651 00:40:09,138 --> 00:40:13,238 Where there was this sense of, like, entitlement and control 652 00:40:13,338 --> 00:40:16,158 and that if you step outside of this little box 653 00:40:16,258 --> 00:40:18,397 that he's kind of put you in, 654 00:40:18,497 --> 00:40:21,077 then you become this huge disappointment 655 00:40:21,177 --> 00:40:23,217 and you're uncontrollable. 656 00:40:26,736 --> 00:40:30,236 I knew that I had to be a certain way, 657 00:40:30,336 --> 00:40:34,076 show that I was fine, 658 00:40:34,176 --> 00:40:36,175 even if I was suffering. 659 00:40:38,855 --> 00:40:43,335 Feeling like at any moment love will be withdrawn. 660 00:40:46,294 --> 00:40:48,954 I just remember bumping into her one day 661 00:40:49,054 --> 00:40:50,554 and I knew it was her birthday 662 00:40:50,654 --> 00:40:53,153 and I took her around to the cafe and we had an ice chocolate 663 00:40:53,253 --> 00:40:55,253 and we had a chat. 664 00:40:56,333 --> 00:40:59,713 She told me that she understood 665 00:40:59,813 --> 00:41:04,472 that her mother was leaving her and the boys. 666 00:41:04,572 --> 00:41:07,272 And I just said, "No, that's not true." 667 00:41:07,372 --> 00:41:09,372 [inhales deeply] 668 00:41:12,171 --> 00:41:15,391 [tearfully] That's what her father had told her. 669 00:41:15,491 --> 00:41:17,491 Um... 670 00:41:18,051 --> 00:41:20,050 And I told her... 671 00:41:22,650 --> 00:41:25,870 ...that there was no way her mother would've left her. 672 00:41:25,970 --> 00:41:29,469 And the lies that she'd been told 673 00:41:29,569 --> 00:41:33,449 were just... not right. 674 00:41:35,289 --> 00:41:41,068 When I was 16, I needed to get my passport. 675 00:41:41,168 --> 00:41:43,288 And I needed to get a death certificate. 676 00:41:44,768 --> 00:41:47,267 And so it was the first time I actually had seen 677 00:41:47,367 --> 00:41:49,587 her cause of death, like, written down. 678 00:41:49,687 --> 00:41:53,107 Which was something like "the effects of a gunshot wound to the head". 679 00:41:53,207 --> 00:41:58,106 Which was incredibly confronting for me at 16 680 00:41:58,206 --> 00:42:00,946 because nobody had ever said that to me. 681 00:42:01,046 --> 00:42:04,105 They hadn't actually said, like, "This is how she died." 682 00:42:04,205 --> 00:42:07,665 I remember that feeling of reading that death certificate 683 00:42:07,765 --> 00:42:11,944 and being really shocked at, I guess, the bluntness of it. 684 00:42:12,044 --> 00:42:15,424 But just also that that was what it was. 685 00:42:15,524 --> 00:42:17,544 You know? Um... 686 00:42:17,644 --> 00:42:21,863 That my dad had shot her in the head. 687 00:42:21,963 --> 00:42:28,043 That knowledge made me realise that I was unsafe, actually. 688 00:42:29,083 --> 00:42:31,142 Like, physically unsafe. 689 00:42:31,242 --> 00:42:34,742 And it's not... It's like I felt that before. 690 00:42:34,842 --> 00:42:38,861 But I had this example of like how far he could go. 691 00:42:38,961 --> 00:42:41,841 I felt scared of my dad at that time. 692 00:42:43,841 --> 00:42:46,061 And what he could do. 693 00:42:46,161 --> 00:42:48,980 Because I was also just living on my own with him at that point. 694 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,660 My brothers had left home. 695 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,779 And I think, why didn't anyone else, why didn't the adults, you know, 696 00:42:55,879 --> 00:42:58,619 ask some questions, check in? 697 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,179 All of those things. 698 00:43:00,279 --> 00:43:05,058 It's not like people didn't know that that was fucking strange. 699 00:43:05,158 --> 00:43:06,738 That was a weird thing 700 00:43:06,838 --> 00:43:09,938 that we were growing up in the house that our mother was killed 701 00:43:10,038 --> 00:43:12,038 with the man that killed her. 702 00:43:15,077 --> 00:43:19,417 I think there was an assumption that everything was fine. 703 00:43:19,517 --> 00:43:21,217 Everyone wanted it to be fine. 704 00:43:21,317 --> 00:43:24,456 So I thought, "Well, if I'm not fine, 705 00:43:24,556 --> 00:43:27,356 "then something's wrong with me, not them." 706 00:43:29,316 --> 00:43:33,255 I started having nightmares about her death. 707 00:43:33,355 --> 00:43:38,415 Like, very graphic nightmares about, um, her being shot 708 00:43:38,515 --> 00:43:40,514 in this house that I was living in. 709 00:43:41,354 --> 00:43:43,894 And it was also just, like, my everyday house. 710 00:43:43,994 --> 00:43:47,094 You know, like, come home from school and make myself a snack 711 00:43:47,194 --> 00:43:50,893 and, you know, sometimes I would watch something with my dad 712 00:43:50,993 --> 00:43:52,973 and it was funny and we'd laugh and... 713 00:43:53,073 --> 00:43:54,653 It was just my life. 714 00:43:54,753 --> 00:43:59,292 And it was also terrifying at times. 715 00:43:59,392 --> 00:44:01,392 Yeah. 716 00:44:09,871 --> 00:44:12,731 I knew that to have any sort of peace 717 00:44:12,831 --> 00:44:15,950 that I needed to leave Lismore. 718 00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:20,450 And I finished my last exam, 719 00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:23,530 packed up my stuff one day when my dad was at work 720 00:44:23,630 --> 00:44:25,629 and just left. 721 00:44:28,509 --> 00:44:31,309 I actually don't remember saying goodbye to my dad at all. 722 00:44:33,468 --> 00:44:35,688 So I went to Sydney. 723 00:44:35,788 --> 00:44:40,768 And moved in with my cousin Elle and the family. 724 00:44:40,868 --> 00:44:45,087 And we went to uni together at Sydney Uni. 725 00:44:45,187 --> 00:44:50,167 At some point, I got a job at Sydney Theatre Company, 726 00:44:50,267 --> 00:44:52,446 and that's where I met Tanya. 727 00:44:52,546 --> 00:44:57,046 Kathryn's my best friend, my former partner. 728 00:44:57,146 --> 00:44:59,885 We met in 2008. 729 00:44:59,985 --> 00:45:02,205 Neither of us had been in a queer relationship before. 730 00:45:02,305 --> 00:45:05,885 So our falling in love was a really beautiful time 731 00:45:05,985 --> 00:45:07,685 and also complicated time. 732 00:45:07,785 --> 00:45:09,764 We had, like, a great crew of friends 733 00:45:09,864 --> 00:45:12,244 that we spent time with and saw a lot of art. 734 00:45:12,344 --> 00:45:14,084 We were super broke, 735 00:45:14,184 --> 00:45:19,883 but it was a beautiful kind of love story 736 00:45:19,983 --> 00:45:22,163 and then also, like... 737 00:45:22,263 --> 00:45:26,122 interwoven with a lot of trauma and pain, I guess. 738 00:45:26,222 --> 00:45:33,922 I felt like I would leave behind everything that had happened, 739 00:45:34,022 --> 00:45:39,921 including that feeling of... I guess, you know, depression. 740 00:45:40,021 --> 00:45:43,480 I just assumed that that would go away 741 00:45:43,580 --> 00:45:46,880 once I was out of the house and away from my dad. 742 00:45:46,980 --> 00:45:48,980 And... 743 00:45:50,180 --> 00:45:51,840 it didn't. 744 00:45:51,940 --> 00:45:54,959 In fact, it felt worse. 745 00:45:55,059 --> 00:45:58,119 I was more depressed. I was really depressed. 746 00:45:58,219 --> 00:46:02,558 I don't think I've ever seen Kathryn asleep. 747 00:46:02,658 --> 00:46:05,798 And we were together for four years. 748 00:46:05,898 --> 00:46:09,418 Insomnia and nightmares were a big part of our life. 749 00:46:10,097 --> 00:46:14,357 They would sit bolt upright and they would be screaming. 750 00:46:14,457 --> 00:46:17,597 It was a guttural scream. 751 00:46:17,697 --> 00:46:21,516 And they would be shaking, hyperventilating. 752 00:46:21,616 --> 00:46:25,976 It was just fear. Just... just fear. 753 00:46:26,816 --> 00:46:29,555 How anyone thought that he could raise those kids 754 00:46:29,655 --> 00:46:32,555 in the home where he killed Carolyn 755 00:46:32,655 --> 00:46:38,234 and then have one of them grow up with physical likeness to this person 756 00:46:38,334 --> 00:46:39,874 and for people not to think 757 00:46:39,974 --> 00:46:42,714 that there was going to be some problems there, 758 00:46:42,814 --> 00:46:44,354 perplexes me. 759 00:46:44,454 --> 00:46:48,753 My father was still in regular contact with me 760 00:46:48,853 --> 00:46:53,273 and writing me letters that were pretty awful. 761 00:46:53,373 --> 00:46:54,912 Some days we would be 762 00:46:55,012 --> 00:46:57,192 going about our days in our tiny little apartment 763 00:46:57,292 --> 00:47:00,832 and it was like living with someone that wasn't there. 764 00:47:00,932 --> 00:47:03,151 Like, they were the closest person to me in the world, 765 00:47:03,251 --> 00:47:05,251 so when they did disappear... 766 00:47:06,291 --> 00:47:08,691 it was difficult. 767 00:47:10,011 --> 00:47:12,010 And I didn't know what to do. 768 00:47:12,970 --> 00:47:15,790 And it was during that time 769 00:47:15,890 --> 00:47:18,710 that I went through a lot of things in my life. 770 00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:20,949 A break-up with Tanya. 771 00:47:21,049 --> 00:47:26,549 That brought a lot of grief, um... 772 00:47:26,649 --> 00:47:29,948 and loss into my... to my world. 773 00:47:30,048 --> 00:47:33,428 So I started going to therapy, 774 00:47:33,528 --> 00:47:36,128 like, really seriously for the first time. 775 00:47:37,568 --> 00:47:43,527 And really started dealing with my childhood. 776 00:47:53,046 --> 00:47:57,265 So, in 2013 I dropped my surname, Stuckey. 777 00:47:57,365 --> 00:48:01,965 And I made my middle name my surname, which is Joy. 778 00:48:02,845 --> 00:48:05,584 And Joy was my mum's middle name. 779 00:48:05,684 --> 00:48:11,064 Part of it was not wanting to just be easily tracked down 780 00:48:11,164 --> 00:48:12,624 by my father. 781 00:48:12,724 --> 00:48:15,823 And then there was really embracing my mum 782 00:48:15,923 --> 00:48:17,923 and that side of the family. 783 00:48:21,323 --> 00:48:23,322 [birds twittering] 784 00:48:38,721 --> 00:48:42,480 I always felt like I wasn't going to be around for very long. 785 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,880 Like I was going to have a short life. 786 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,519 Like my mum. 787 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,299 I worked out how old she was when she was killed. 788 00:48:54,399 --> 00:48:59,318 Which was 32 years, nine weeks and six days. 789 00:49:00,678 --> 00:49:04,058 And I worked out what date that will be for me. 790 00:49:04,158 --> 00:49:08,597 And it's 27th December 2016. 791 00:49:09,797 --> 00:49:12,337 So I have a cut-off date in my head. 792 00:49:12,437 --> 00:49:15,276 And I have about six months. 793 00:49:16,476 --> 00:49:21,756 I've always just assumed that I would die sometime before then. 794 00:49:24,235 --> 00:49:26,315 That's... that's it for me. 795 00:49:35,634 --> 00:49:39,894 Part of feeling like I'm not going to be here next year 796 00:49:39,994 --> 00:49:43,413 is not having a mother 797 00:49:43,513 --> 00:49:45,533 to kind of see what that looks like, 798 00:49:45,633 --> 00:49:48,773 what that next part looks like and getting older looks like. 799 00:49:48,873 --> 00:49:52,612 And a lot of people look to their parents for that. 800 00:49:52,712 --> 00:49:56,752 But part of it, I think, is just that I... 801 00:49:58,432 --> 00:50:01,831 feel like we're somehow the same person. 802 00:50:03,351 --> 00:50:06,831 And that's probably not the healthiest thing in the world. [heavy exhale] 803 00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:11,190 [sighing softly] 804 00:50:16,030 --> 00:50:18,649 So it's like 2 a.m. or something 805 00:50:18,749 --> 00:50:23,849 and... I can't sleep because... 806 00:50:23,949 --> 00:50:26,088 I've never been able to take sleeping pills 807 00:50:26,188 --> 00:50:30,168 because they give me these nightmares. 808 00:50:30,268 --> 00:50:33,888 I feel like having them around is probably not a good idea. 809 00:50:33,988 --> 00:50:35,987 So... 810 00:50:42,947 --> 00:50:44,046 [exhales softly] 811 00:50:44,146 --> 00:50:46,786 I'm supposed to be at therapy today. 812 00:50:47,826 --> 00:50:52,125 I had to cancel it because I can't afford to go. 813 00:50:52,225 --> 00:50:55,425 Like, I'm 32 and I can't pay my rent. 814 00:50:58,345 --> 00:51:00,924 I think that's enough for today. 815 00:51:01,024 --> 00:51:03,024 [sniffles] 816 00:51:06,344 --> 00:51:10,823 I really didn't want to do this today because I feel awful and... 817 00:51:12,183 --> 00:51:14,183 [sighs] 818 00:51:14,943 --> 00:51:20,422 ...and I'm afraid of... not coming out of it. 819 00:51:22,742 --> 00:51:24,822 [sniffles] 820 00:51:26,742 --> 00:51:28,741 [exhales] 821 00:51:32,101 --> 00:51:35,021 Today is December 26th. 822 00:51:36,061 --> 00:51:38,480 So, tomorrow... 823 00:51:38,580 --> 00:51:43,060 I will be the exact age that my mother was when she was killed. 824 00:52:23,015 --> 00:52:26,715 [Kathryn] So, today is New Year's Day 825 00:52:26,815 --> 00:52:28,315 and I'm alive. 826 00:52:28,415 --> 00:52:32,174 So that's... kind of strange. 827 00:52:33,134 --> 00:52:38,833 I've just realised how many people in my life are willing to help. 828 00:52:38,933 --> 00:52:41,633 And it's a really beautiful thing, so... 829 00:52:41,733 --> 00:52:44,833 I guess, just thinking about the next couple of months, 830 00:52:44,933 --> 00:52:48,212 thinking about how I'm going to survive. 831 00:52:49,932 --> 00:52:53,512 And some of those things are just kind of practical things 832 00:52:53,612 --> 00:52:59,271 to do with work and finding another job. 833 00:52:59,371 --> 00:53:00,751 [sighs] 834 00:53:00,851 --> 00:53:02,971 I think I need to learn to drive. 835 00:53:07,570 --> 00:53:09,570 I will... 836 00:53:11,810 --> 00:53:15,129 ...I guess, be back tomorrow. 837 00:53:21,209 --> 00:53:24,228 For such a long time 838 00:53:24,328 --> 00:53:27,788 the only thing that I knew about my mum 839 00:53:27,888 --> 00:53:29,888 was the way that she died. 840 00:53:31,327 --> 00:53:36,487 Then that became my whole relationship with her. 841 00:53:39,247 --> 00:53:41,106 It's been really important to me 842 00:53:41,206 --> 00:53:45,666 for her to exist as a person who lived 843 00:53:45,766 --> 00:53:49,525 and not just a person who was killed. 844 00:53:54,365 --> 00:53:59,544 I decided that I wanted to write to some people 845 00:53:59,644 --> 00:54:01,804 and, like, ask them... 846 00:54:03,524 --> 00:54:05,524 ...what my mum was like. 847 00:54:09,003 --> 00:54:14,043 So, we're going to Brisbane to meet Anne McKinnon. 848 00:54:15,362 --> 00:54:17,142 A friend of my mum's. 849 00:54:17,242 --> 00:54:18,702 I'm excited 850 00:54:18,802 --> 00:54:23,462 because I never really knew what happened to her. 851 00:54:23,562 --> 00:54:26,441 We couldn't get a lot of information. 852 00:54:27,281 --> 00:54:28,821 We lost our friend, 853 00:54:28,921 --> 00:54:32,061 but you don't know what happened to the children. 854 00:54:32,161 --> 00:54:35,680 I probably had never thought about it from the point of view of the child. 855 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,000 Their feelings and what their lives turned out like. 856 00:54:43,919 --> 00:54:45,499 [Kathryn] When my mum was younger, 857 00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:48,619 I think they studied together at teachers' college, 858 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,178 from what I know. 859 00:54:50,278 --> 00:54:52,278 So, it'll be nice to hear about... 860 00:54:53,878 --> 00:54:57,738 ...I guess, those days before my mum was a mother too. 861 00:54:57,838 --> 00:55:00,557 You know? Just her as a younger person. 862 00:55:05,997 --> 00:55:07,697 May I hug you? Is that okay? 863 00:55:07,797 --> 00:55:10,256 Perfectly. Oh, you beautiful girl. 864 00:55:10,356 --> 00:55:14,296 I just wanted you stand next to me like Mum and I. 865 00:55:14,396 --> 00:55:16,136 [gasps] Oh, my goodness! 866 00:55:16,236 --> 00:55:19,615 - [Anne] You're a little bit taller. Look. - [Kathryn] Wow! 867 00:55:19,715 --> 00:55:23,375 - [Anne] That's going to the ball. - [Kathryn] Oh, that's a beautiful picture. 868 00:55:23,475 --> 00:55:25,934 - [Anne] Oh, we would've been 18. - [Kathryn] Wow. 869 00:55:26,034 --> 00:55:28,174 - God, you're like her. Oh, my God! - [laughs] 870 00:55:28,274 --> 00:55:30,894 - It's so nice to see you! - It's so nice to see you. 871 00:55:30,994 --> 00:55:32,854 - 'Cause we buddied up. - Mmm. 872 00:55:32,954 --> 00:55:35,453 And we used to just wake up at ten to 9:00, 873 00:55:35,553 --> 00:55:37,253 put the Levi's on and the gym boots 874 00:55:37,353 --> 00:55:39,973 and tuck our hair in and jump the fence and go to uni. 875 00:55:40,073 --> 00:55:41,973 We had to go nine to five in those days. 876 00:55:42,073 --> 00:55:44,332 It was very regimented, mark the roll, you know. 877 00:55:44,432 --> 00:55:46,652 And she started skipping. 878 00:55:46,752 --> 00:55:49,092 I said, "You gotta come to Social Studies!" 879 00:55:49,192 --> 00:55:50,492 She goes, "Ohh..." 880 00:55:50,592 --> 00:55:52,411 [Kathryn] Yes! I love this inf... 881 00:55:52,511 --> 00:55:55,651 - I love this, 'cause this is so me. - And I'd say, "Get up!" 882 00:55:55,751 --> 00:55:57,691 She goes, "Ohh, I can't be bothered." 883 00:55:57,791 --> 00:56:00,371 I said, "Oh, you'll fail." And she did. 884 00:56:00,471 --> 00:56:02,450 - [Kathryn laughs] - Anyway, she got through it. 885 00:56:02,550 --> 00:56:03,650 - She... Yeah. - Yeah. 886 00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:07,210 - She was messy. - I'm really messy too. [laughs] 887 00:56:07,310 --> 00:56:08,850 - Are you messy? - I'm so messy. 888 00:56:08,950 --> 00:56:10,249 - Show me your hands. - I'm so untidy. 889 00:56:10,349 --> 00:56:12,129 - You don't get eczema? - I do, yes, yeah. 890 00:56:12,229 --> 00:56:13,929 So did she. 891 00:56:14,029 --> 00:56:16,489 And this is a recipe. 892 00:56:16,589 --> 00:56:18,289 That's Mum's writing. 893 00:56:18,389 --> 00:56:21,208 Oh, yes! She had such neat writing. 894 00:56:21,308 --> 00:56:24,328 Carolyn. And that's rum cream pie. I've got a copy of that. 895 00:56:24,428 --> 00:56:26,568 - So you have that. - Amazing. Oh, thank you. 896 00:56:26,668 --> 00:56:27,847 You have that. 897 00:56:27,947 --> 00:56:29,767 This is my little treasure trove I got out. 898 00:56:29,867 --> 00:56:34,647 I'm gonna veganise this recipe and make it. [laughs] 899 00:56:34,747 --> 00:56:36,646 - Well, you keep all those. - [Kathryn] Thank you. 900 00:56:36,746 --> 00:56:38,406 [Anne] You know, you're more than welcome. 901 00:56:38,506 --> 00:56:40,366 It was so nice to meet you. Thank you so much 902 00:56:40,466 --> 00:56:42,566 - It's just been wonderful. - It's been really lovely. 903 00:56:42,666 --> 00:56:45,325 And I really hope we can catch up again and stay in touch. 904 00:56:45,425 --> 00:56:47,425 - Thank you. Ohh... - Give me a big hug. 905 00:56:52,905 --> 00:56:56,164 I decided to get in touch with Allen Ennew. 906 00:56:56,264 --> 00:57:01,444 He was the man my mother fell in love with, had an affair with, 907 00:57:01,544 --> 00:57:05,023 and ask some questions about my mum. 908 00:57:06,303 --> 00:57:08,203 [man] "Dear Kathryn, 909 00:57:08,303 --> 00:57:10,963 "the first thing I should mention regarding our relationship 910 00:57:11,063 --> 00:57:13,002 "is that while it started as an affair, 911 00:57:13,102 --> 00:57:15,102 "it developed into much more. 912 00:57:16,302 --> 00:57:19,042 "Carolyn was a very special person to me. 913 00:57:19,142 --> 00:57:22,641 "But not only to me but many friends she had 914 00:57:22,741 --> 00:57:26,521 "and was and is sadly missed 915 00:57:26,621 --> 00:57:28,781 "even after all this time." 916 00:57:30,460 --> 00:57:35,020 I had also received a letter from Clare during that time. 917 00:57:36,580 --> 00:57:39,479 She contacted me 918 00:57:39,579 --> 00:57:43,559 after she had heard that I'd reached out to her dad. 919 00:57:43,659 --> 00:57:49,038 And we just became really good friends. 920 00:57:49,138 --> 00:57:52,698 And such a big anchor for me. 921 00:57:53,698 --> 00:57:58,797 While we didn't have the same experience, 922 00:57:58,897 --> 00:58:02,117 there were so many things that were similar 923 00:58:02,217 --> 00:58:04,236 and there was just a real understanding 924 00:58:04,336 --> 00:58:08,176 of our families and that town and everything that happened. 925 00:58:17,495 --> 00:58:21,595 I don't think I've ever really been around here much. 926 00:58:21,695 --> 00:58:23,594 Ahh! Greenwood... That's... 927 00:58:23,694 --> 00:58:26,014 I feel like that name was in the trial. 928 00:58:29,214 --> 00:58:33,913 So, this is the house where my dad and your mum 929 00:58:34,013 --> 00:58:36,633 we're planning on being together. 930 00:58:36,733 --> 00:58:39,353 So, Dad bought this house thinking 931 00:58:39,453 --> 00:58:43,472 that you and your brothers would move in here. 932 00:58:43,572 --> 00:58:45,572 And, of course, your mum. 933 00:58:46,572 --> 00:58:48,651 This would've been your home. 934 00:58:50,491 --> 00:58:52,691 - And yours. - And mine. 935 00:58:58,090 --> 00:59:03,930 Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a different... whole, like, life that... 936 00:59:06,369 --> 00:59:08,369 ...could have been. 937 00:59:11,009 --> 00:59:14,309 And that being, yeah, taken away. 938 00:59:14,409 --> 00:59:16,388 From her and from us. 939 00:59:16,488 --> 00:59:18,488 From all of us. 940 00:59:19,088 --> 00:59:21,088 [sighs] 941 00:59:30,007 --> 00:59:32,067 [Jill] When you said that you used to think, 942 00:59:32,167 --> 00:59:34,386 "Where are those people who were my mother's friends? 943 00:59:34,486 --> 00:59:36,026 "Why aren't they helping me?" 944 00:59:36,126 --> 00:59:39,146 I just... You know, that was devastating to hear that. 945 00:59:39,246 --> 00:59:44,225 I knew your father's animosity to anyone who was from that time. 946 00:59:44,325 --> 00:59:46,145 But maybe we should've gone past that. 947 00:59:46,245 --> 00:59:48,265 You know, maybe that's... 948 00:59:48,365 --> 00:59:50,504 You know, we should've been brave... 949 00:59:50,604 --> 00:59:53,424 I guess, selfishly we were all looking after ourselves as well. 950 00:59:53,524 --> 00:59:56,144 - And... - We were afraid too. 951 00:59:56,244 --> 00:59:59,223 I was scared to ask questions 'cause I didn't know who to ask. 952 00:59:59,323 --> 01:00:03,183 And, like, it was honestly like it had never happened. 953 01:00:03,283 --> 01:00:06,503 But I just imagined that every time anywhere you went 954 01:00:06,603 --> 01:00:08,702 that people would have said, "Oh, you know..." 955 01:00:08,802 --> 01:00:11,582 I'm sure they did. I mean, that's the thing too. 956 01:00:11,682 --> 01:00:13,502 Growing up knowing that other people... 957 01:00:13,602 --> 01:00:15,302 Well, not even knowing but feeling 958 01:00:15,402 --> 01:00:17,381 like people were talking about you all the time. 959 01:00:17,481 --> 01:00:19,781 - Did you? - [Kathryn] Yeah. 960 01:00:19,881 --> 01:00:22,521 You know, we could... [exhales deeply] 961 01:00:24,441 --> 01:00:27,620 ...can handle anything but the silence. 962 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,720 - [Kathryn] Yeah. - [Jill] Yes. 963 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,619 I hated that everyone always was so careful. 964 01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:38,019 I mean, I know it was a protective thing, but that... 965 01:00:38,119 --> 01:00:39,539 Yeah, we... [inhales] 966 01:00:39,639 --> 01:00:43,098 It's like, I've already lived through the worst of it. 967 01:00:43,198 --> 01:00:47,078 Yeah, the worst part is not speaking about it. 968 01:00:50,638 --> 01:00:53,817 So, I went back to Banksia Court, 969 01:00:53,917 --> 01:00:57,737 my old street that I grew up in. 970 01:00:57,837 --> 01:01:03,636 But I was with Helen and Lyndel, my two old neighbours. 971 01:01:06,116 --> 01:01:07,416 [Helen] Wow. 972 01:01:07,516 --> 01:01:11,215 [Lyndel] How do you feel coming back? And have you been back before? 973 01:01:11,315 --> 01:01:13,495 I think I've driven past once 974 01:01:13,595 --> 01:01:15,535 in the last, you know, 20 years or something. 975 01:01:15,635 --> 01:01:18,055 But I haven't, kind of, stood here and... 976 01:01:18,155 --> 01:01:19,534 [Helen & Lyndel] Yep. 977 01:01:19,634 --> 01:01:21,254 [sighs] 978 01:01:21,354 --> 01:01:23,594 It's... hard. 979 01:01:25,034 --> 01:01:26,534 Yeah. 980 01:01:26,634 --> 01:01:28,853 I remember it being a really dark house growing up. 981 01:01:28,953 --> 01:01:31,253 I mean, I don't know if that was my state of mind or... 982 01:01:31,353 --> 01:01:34,653 - But the house itself felt really... Yeah. - It is a dark house. Yeah. 983 01:01:34,753 --> 01:01:37,652 And I feel like the curtains were always closed. 984 01:01:37,752 --> 01:01:39,452 Did you notice the difference 985 01:01:39,552 --> 01:01:41,852 between, like, when my mum was there and after? 986 01:01:41,952 --> 01:01:44,052 Like, did it feel very different? 987 01:01:44,152 --> 01:01:46,691 I remember being here to look after your brothers, Kathryn, 988 01:01:46,791 --> 01:01:49,451 when your dad took you as a little baby. 989 01:01:49,551 --> 01:01:51,251 And I just was sitting in the house 990 01:01:51,351 --> 01:01:54,250 just feeling the enormity of what had happened. 991 01:01:54,350 --> 01:01:57,370 And how dark and, you know, um... 992 01:01:57,470 --> 01:01:59,250 You know, your mum was always vibrant 993 01:01:59,350 --> 01:02:01,850 and there'd be snacks and lots of activity happening 994 01:02:01,950 --> 01:02:03,409 and giggling, and... 995 01:02:03,509 --> 01:02:08,169 The sense was just that huge contrast between... 996 01:02:08,269 --> 01:02:11,568 you know, this is now and here on. 997 01:02:11,668 --> 01:02:14,648 But I think now we get to grieve that. 998 01:02:14,748 --> 01:02:17,088 - [Kathryn] Mmm. - Whereas back then we didn't. 999 01:02:17,188 --> 01:02:19,188 Because we didn't know how. 1000 01:02:28,267 --> 01:02:30,426 - There she is. - Oh, there she is. 1001 01:02:34,826 --> 01:02:37,605 I feel really angry about the fact that it says "passed away". 1002 01:02:37,705 --> 01:02:40,885 - [Helen] I was just looking at that. - [Kathryn] It just makes me really mad. 1003 01:02:40,985 --> 01:02:42,985 Because he... he did this. 1004 01:02:44,145 --> 01:02:47,124 [Lyndel] She'll always be older than me. 1005 01:02:47,224 --> 01:02:50,204 I'm 52 and I still look at Carolyn as... 1006 01:02:50,304 --> 01:02:53,324 - [Kathryn] I know. Isn't that strange? - [Lyndel] She's always gonna be... 1007 01:02:53,424 --> 01:02:57,283 [Helen] Your mum read this to you when you were a baby. 1008 01:02:57,383 --> 01:02:59,283 "I carry your heart with me. 1009 01:02:59,383 --> 01:03:01,403 "I carry it in my heart. 1010 01:03:01,503 --> 01:03:03,283 "I am never without it. 1011 01:03:03,383 --> 01:03:06,762 "Anywhere I go, you go, my dear..." 1012 01:03:06,862 --> 01:03:09,202 [woman, VO] "And whatever is done by only me 1013 01:03:09,302 --> 01:03:11,682 "is your doing, my darling. 1014 01:03:11,782 --> 01:03:14,321 "I fear no fate. 1015 01:03:14,421 --> 01:03:17,041 "For you are my fate, my sweet. 1016 01:03:17,141 --> 01:03:19,481 "I want no world. 1017 01:03:19,581 --> 01:03:23,240 "For beautiful you are my world, my true. 1018 01:03:23,340 --> 01:03:25,680 "I carry your heart. 1019 01:03:25,780 --> 01:03:27,940 "I carry it in my heart." 1020 01:03:36,419 --> 01:03:38,619 She loved you so much. 1021 01:03:40,418 --> 01:03:42,898 The three of you so, so much. 1022 01:03:57,296 --> 01:04:01,816 [Kathryn] I had been having these thoughts about doing a memorial for my mum. 1023 01:04:03,856 --> 01:04:07,515 Make a space for all of us to talk a bit more about her 1024 01:04:07,615 --> 01:04:10,395 and have some ritual around it. 1025 01:04:10,495 --> 01:04:14,714 I felt like I needed that. Like a grief ritual. 1026 01:04:14,814 --> 01:04:16,594 And... 1027 01:04:16,694 --> 01:04:18,734 And I felt like other people did too. 1028 01:04:19,734 --> 01:04:21,734 [birds whistling, twittering] 1029 01:04:23,334 --> 01:04:26,113 [Tanya] Kathryn wanted to do something in Lismore. 1030 01:04:26,213 --> 01:04:29,573 To bring together friends and family, to honour Carolyn. 1031 01:04:30,653 --> 01:04:33,432 They ended up finding this outdoor cathedral. 1032 01:04:33,532 --> 01:04:36,552 Which was so beautiful and, yeah, really connected 1033 01:04:36,652 --> 01:04:40,912 Kathryn's kind of environmental spirituality 1034 01:04:41,012 --> 01:04:43,251 and Carolyn's faith. 1035 01:04:54,570 --> 01:04:56,710 - [indistinct chatter] - [Kathryn] They're amazing. 1036 01:04:56,810 --> 01:04:58,809 They're just one for each person. 1037 01:05:00,809 --> 01:05:03,969 [sighs heavily] Gosh. 1038 01:05:04,809 --> 01:05:06,469 [Kathryn] So many people, really, 1039 01:05:06,569 --> 01:05:08,428 were just waiting for me to ask. 1040 01:05:08,528 --> 01:05:11,988 You know, like, really actually wanted the opportunity to speak about her. 1041 01:05:12,088 --> 01:05:13,828 - Hi! How you going? - This is my daughter. 1042 01:05:13,928 --> 01:05:15,308 So nice to meet you. 1043 01:05:15,408 --> 01:05:17,267 - How are you? - Good to see you. 1044 01:05:17,367 --> 01:05:19,947 This is the first photo of Kathryn's mother. 1045 01:05:20,047 --> 01:05:23,007 So, Carolyn would've been around four to five. 1046 01:05:25,047 --> 01:05:27,306 [Kathryn] Ohh. It's a beautiful photo. 1047 01:05:27,406 --> 01:05:31,626 Kathryn did an amazing job of organising the memorial. 1048 01:05:31,726 --> 01:05:34,945 She got all sorts of people came together. 1049 01:05:35,045 --> 01:05:38,145 People that I hadn't seen for years were there. 1050 01:05:38,245 --> 01:05:42,005 That made it emotional because we knew why we were there. 1051 01:05:44,044 --> 01:05:47,344 [Tanya] It was also a real time of connection and beauty 1052 01:05:47,444 --> 01:05:49,444 and community. 1053 01:05:49,844 --> 01:05:51,504 [Jill Brodie] And it was amazing. 1054 01:05:51,604 --> 01:05:54,863 And it was so cathartic for all of us there. 1055 01:05:54,963 --> 01:05:57,803 Emotion was so raw, so real. 1056 01:05:58,483 --> 01:06:02,222 It was as if it was a week after something had happened. 1057 01:06:02,322 --> 01:06:04,322 And I'll never forget it. 1058 01:06:05,322 --> 01:06:07,342 I just wanted to welcome everyone here. 1059 01:06:07,442 --> 01:06:10,061 You probably all know it's Carolyn's birthday today. 1060 01:06:10,161 --> 01:06:12,981 And I feel like maybe if she were here 1061 01:06:13,081 --> 01:06:15,581 she would put on some spectacular dinner party, 1062 01:06:15,681 --> 01:06:17,181 she would print out menus. 1063 01:06:17,281 --> 01:06:21,500 Her attention to detail, I have heard, was pretty spot on. 1064 01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:23,860 Carolyn, your death came before 1065 01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:26,620 the groundswell change of public outrage 1066 01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:28,699 at the incidents of domestic violence 1067 01:06:28,799 --> 01:06:30,339 that blight our community. 1068 01:06:30,439 --> 01:06:32,579 Even now, 30 years later, 1069 01:06:32,679 --> 01:06:34,499 I find it difficult to speak without 1070 01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:36,378 getting a little bit of a lump in my throat. 1071 01:06:36,478 --> 01:06:39,618 And today is closure for me as well. 1072 01:06:39,718 --> 01:06:43,618 And I just... I'm so happy and so pleased to see you, 1073 01:06:43,718 --> 01:06:46,377 the embodiment of your mother, 1074 01:06:46,477 --> 01:06:51,857 and with the approach to life that I think she would be very, very proud of. 1075 01:06:51,957 --> 01:06:54,656 I've been trying to put words to how I feel about my mother 1076 01:06:54,756 --> 01:06:56,576 my whole life. 1077 01:06:56,676 --> 01:06:59,576 The feeling of being part of her, and her me, 1078 01:06:59,676 --> 01:07:03,975 but also the absence, of something missing. 1079 01:07:04,075 --> 01:07:08,455 Happy anniversary of your birth, Carolyn Joy. 1080 01:07:08,555 --> 01:07:11,214 You have lived in my heart and mind and body 1081 01:07:11,314 --> 01:07:13,654 since the very first moment I took breath. 1082 01:07:13,754 --> 01:07:14,774 [sniffles] 1083 01:07:14,874 --> 01:07:17,234 And you will be there until the last. 1084 01:07:18,194 --> 01:07:21,833 And in that way, you have lived far longer than your 32 years. 1085 01:07:22,753 --> 01:07:26,033 [sombre piano music plays] 1086 01:08:12,148 --> 01:08:17,607 [Kathryn] That my mother died as a result of family violence, 1087 01:08:17,707 --> 01:08:20,847 I didn't think of it that way for so long. 1088 01:08:20,947 --> 01:08:23,606 Because there was this idea that 1089 01:08:23,706 --> 01:08:27,286 that was just an anomaly in my dad's behaviour 1090 01:08:27,386 --> 01:08:31,545 instead of an actual act of family violence. 1091 01:08:32,545 --> 01:08:35,765 That was also a crime against us. 1092 01:08:35,865 --> 01:08:37,865 Or should have been. 1093 01:08:38,945 --> 01:08:42,544 That was a really big shift in my thinking. 1094 01:08:47,504 --> 01:08:52,683 I started working on the research project at Melbourne Uni 1095 01:08:52,783 --> 01:08:56,323 that aims to improve support 1096 01:08:56,423 --> 01:08:58,522 and better understand children and young people 1097 01:08:58,622 --> 01:09:01,042 who have been bereaved by a domestic homicide. 1098 01:09:01,142 --> 01:09:04,762 Acting in the best interest of the child is seen as secondary 1099 01:09:04,862 --> 01:09:07,801 to ensuring that the accused gets a fair trial. 1100 01:09:07,901 --> 01:09:11,081 But also, how much are they supported to have agency? 1101 01:09:11,181 --> 01:09:14,520 So it's not just about having a voice, it's actually that that leads to change. 1102 01:09:14,620 --> 01:09:17,680 Yeah, it's a bigger issue than probably people have realised. 1103 01:09:17,780 --> 01:09:18,920 [Kathryn] Yeah, totally. 1104 01:09:19,020 --> 01:09:23,160 Bev is somebody that I interviewed for our research project. 1105 01:09:23,260 --> 01:09:25,119 I hear a gunshot 1106 01:09:25,219 --> 01:09:28,119 and I'm like, "What the hell?" 1107 01:09:28,219 --> 01:09:30,399 And I see my mum being shot in the back. 1108 01:09:30,499 --> 01:09:32,318 [Kathryn] And how old were you at this point? 1109 01:09:32,418 --> 01:09:33,918 I'm 11 at this point. 1110 01:09:34,018 --> 01:09:37,198 I can't remember how many shots in total, but the final shot was to the head. 1111 01:09:37,298 --> 01:09:41,277 I still see that image pretty much every day. 1112 01:09:41,377 --> 01:09:43,877 How do we heal from this experience? 1113 01:09:43,977 --> 01:09:45,437 Do we ever really heal? 1114 01:09:45,537 --> 01:09:47,677 Where do we stand and what do we have left to do 1115 01:09:47,777 --> 01:09:49,157 here in this space? 1116 01:09:49,257 --> 01:09:50,516 Because there is a lot more... 1117 01:09:50,616 --> 01:09:52,716 - So much to do. [laughs] - ...to be done in this space. 1118 01:09:52,816 --> 01:09:54,816 And we're gonna do it, Bev. 1119 01:09:56,816 --> 01:10:00,515 [Bev] 52 women a year are dying. 1120 01:10:00,615 --> 01:10:03,755 These women are mothers, grandmothers, 1121 01:10:03,855 --> 01:10:06,395 someone's aunt, someone's friend. 1122 01:10:06,495 --> 01:10:09,054 Where are the voices of those who are left behind? 1123 01:10:11,654 --> 01:10:14,434 [Kathryn] I think that the work that we're doing 1124 01:10:14,534 --> 01:10:15,994 and what we're fighting for 1125 01:10:16,094 --> 01:10:18,933 will make a difference to children and young people. 1126 01:10:21,053 --> 01:10:22,633 Children are primary victims 1127 01:10:22,733 --> 01:10:23,833 in this situation. 1128 01:10:23,933 --> 01:10:26,152 Like, it's a direct crime 1129 01:10:26,252 --> 01:10:28,192 against them as well. 1130 01:10:28,292 --> 01:10:30,272 The men who commit these crimes 1131 01:10:30,372 --> 01:10:32,952 are considered intelligent, charming. 1132 01:10:33,052 --> 01:10:36,191 They might not fit the stereotype of what an abuser looks like. 1133 01:10:36,291 --> 01:10:37,791 And my dad was those things. 1134 01:10:37,891 --> 01:10:40,791 I don't have any relationship with him anymore and I don't... 1135 01:10:40,891 --> 01:10:44,630 I practise very deliberate non-forgiveness. 1136 01:10:44,730 --> 01:10:46,550 I don't know my dad now. 1137 01:10:46,650 --> 01:10:50,190 So, I can't really speak to the person he is now. 1138 01:10:50,290 --> 01:10:54,509 But the further away I get the more clearly I can see 1139 01:10:54,609 --> 01:10:57,509 what it's like to be in an abusive relationship. 1140 01:10:57,609 --> 01:10:59,629 And that was an abusive relationship. 1141 01:10:59,729 --> 01:11:02,068 So, me wanting to come back to him, 1142 01:11:02,168 --> 01:11:04,708 him to be proud of me and be in his favour, 1143 01:11:04,808 --> 01:11:07,228 yes, that's a child wanting that. 1144 01:11:07,328 --> 01:11:08,828 But that's also somebody 1145 01:11:08,928 --> 01:11:11,667 who is going through the dynamic 1146 01:11:11,767 --> 01:11:14,867 of somebody else's push and pull 1147 01:11:14,967 --> 01:11:16,967 and somebody else's control. 1148 01:11:20,686 --> 01:11:22,886 I don't have him in my head anymore. 1149 01:11:24,206 --> 01:11:28,705 So many of the depressive kind of episodes that I've had 1150 01:11:28,805 --> 01:11:33,185 are around that stuff that I can't change 1151 01:11:33,285 --> 01:11:35,425 no matter how much therapy I do. 1152 01:11:35,525 --> 01:11:37,984 And that's where activism comes into my life. 1153 01:11:38,084 --> 01:11:39,544 I think, that's where I go, 1154 01:11:39,644 --> 01:11:44,324 "Well, I can't just be doing interior work." 1155 01:11:45,043 --> 01:11:48,743 I feel like if you're gonna live in this world, 1156 01:11:48,843 --> 01:11:50,843 you have to do something. 1157 01:11:52,723 --> 01:11:55,662 I love the concept of Killjoys. 1158 01:11:55,762 --> 01:11:58,482 Of feminist Killjoys, specifically. 1159 01:11:59,362 --> 01:12:01,142 Sara Ahmed, 1160 01:12:01,242 --> 01:12:04,941 who is an amazing thinker and writer, 1161 01:12:05,041 --> 01:12:07,801 and she coined this term. 1162 01:12:09,041 --> 01:12:10,581 People who are willing 1163 01:12:10,681 --> 01:12:15,260 to sort of not stay quiet about injustice. 1164 01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,300 And I have been called a killjoy. 1165 01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:20,059 And I embrace that. 1166 01:12:20,159 --> 01:12:22,159 I think it's a good thing. 1167 01:12:36,158 --> 01:12:40,477 I'm not here now as, like, some healed human. 1168 01:12:44,117 --> 01:12:46,117 It's ongoing. 1169 01:12:46,676 --> 01:12:51,496 It's always kind of navigating my mental health 1170 01:12:51,596 --> 01:12:54,116 and experiences and trauma. 1171 01:12:58,395 --> 01:13:01,015 Being almost 40 now 1172 01:13:01,115 --> 01:13:04,634 and realising that my mum only got to 32... 1173 01:13:06,914 --> 01:13:09,134 For me, my thirties have just been 1174 01:13:09,234 --> 01:13:12,454 such a huge time of understanding myself. 1175 01:13:12,554 --> 01:13:15,913 And she didn't really get that time. 1176 01:13:18,953 --> 01:13:22,272 I think if I could speak to my mum now... 1177 01:13:23,232 --> 01:13:27,152 I would... tell her I loved her. 1178 01:13:29,472 --> 01:13:31,471 And let her know that... 1179 01:13:34,431 --> 01:13:37,191 ...my life is, like, so full. 1180 01:13:44,470 --> 01:13:49,189 I don't just have to tolerate being sort of okay. 1181 01:13:52,189 --> 01:13:55,509 You know, I'm actually allowed to feel good. 1182 01:13:59,508 --> 01:14:02,848 I'm in a new place where I feel like I might actually live for a while. 1183 01:14:02,948 --> 01:14:05,607 I mean, who knows? Who knows what will happen? 1184 01:14:05,707 --> 01:14:08,687 [sombre piano music plays] 1185 01:14:08,787 --> 01:14:11,787 [light chatter and laughter fade out] 90451

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