Original subtitles

The Crown Prosecution Service has authorised Merseyside Police

to charge Thomas Cashman with the murder

of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Korbel.

We will see you in court.

Yeah, we will.

To clear my name.

OK.

If he was any type of man, he'd admit what he's done.

Ashley Dale was murdered in her own home.

The innocent victim of a callous crime.

We'll never come to terms with it.

I'll never accept it.

She's not here. She's not coming back.

She must have been so scared

when she heard the door getting kicked in.

And she's confronted with someone holding that.

AUTOMATIC GUNFIRE

I have never gone into a scene like that to see just how determined,

whoever it was that's gone in,

there is just no-one getting out of that house alive.

Niall Barry has been making threats towards Lee,

saying that he's put money on his head.

James, come with me, you're under arrest for suspicion of murder.

These two work for Niall Barry.

And if they carried out the attack, it'll be for him.

We believe that Witham and Peers have left the Pilch Lane flat,

and then have used the Hyundai to drive to Ashley's home address,

where the door has been forced to the premises.

The gunman has entered, which we believe is James Witham,

firing ten shots in Ashley's direction,

and then has run out of the house.

We believe that Joseph Peers is outside as more or less

the getaway driver of the Hyundai.

James, just before we go any further,

I need to make you aware that the interview

is being downstream monitored.

Members of the investigation team will be monitoring the live feed

of that interview.

James, what do you know about the murder of Ashley Dale?

Do you know anything about it?

Do you know why Ashley was shot and killed?

OK, Joseph, we're really interested in a grey Hyundai.

Do you recognise this vehicle?

No comment.

Have you ever driven the vehicle?

No comment.

We believe that vehicle was used

in the commission of Ashley's murder.

That means it was used to take the gunman to the address...

..where Ashley was shot on the head, she was forced.

To be more specific, James.

Did you have any part in forcing the front door of Leinster Road?

So the forensic examination of Leinster Road,

the CSI recovered a number of footprint lifts

from inside the address.

And he said that the marks were left by an On Cloudflyer trainer...

..in a size 8.5.

Did you leave those footwear marks in Leinster Road?

Or is it just a coincidence?

It's just part of the investigation.

We've conducted financial enquiries on a Lloyds account held

in your name, and those records show that

11.09 Saturday the 20th of August,

there was a transaction for £155

at Tesco Sports.

Do you know anything about that transaction?

We're going to show you some footage, James.

DCI CUMMINGS: He's sweating.

From isn't it - KMM4?

So this is footage from Tesco's.

Male comes to the till...

..and purchases black On Cloudflyer trainers..

..in a size 8.5.

Do you still have those trainers, James?

Where are they now?

Exhibit DB-21.

This is a bullet casing that has been left within the scene

at Leinster Road.

That specific casing has been submitted for forensic analysis.

So the scientist reports, "The reference DNA profile

"of James Witham is almost fully represented within this result.

"As I might expect if he was a contributor of DNA to this result."

So that bullet casing has been analysed.

The scientist is saying that has come from you.

Do you want to pause the interview? If that's what he wants, yeah.

Yeah, that's fine.

OK, Joseph, have you got any links to any organised crime group?

No comment.

As in what would be known as the Barry OCG.

You linked to the Barry OCG?

No comment.

Niall Barry, he's sometimes called Branch.

Does that mean anything to you? That name?

No comment.

Did you have any contact with Niall Barry, also known as Branch,

on the day of the murder? No comment.

OK, James, that's recording again there.

OK. Just before the break, James,

I explained to you about a bullet casing

in the address where Ashley Dale was murdered.

And I asked if there's anything you'd like to say

about those results.

Was Ashley, the intended target, James?

Were you aware of any of your associates

being in dispute with Ashley?

Niall Barry, does that name mean anything to you?

Do you know Niall?

Does the name Lee Harrison mean anything to you, James?

So we know Lee to have been the partner of Ashley

at the time she was killed.

Was Niall in dispute with Lee?

To your knowledge, did Niall have any involvement in this murder?

I've got no further questions.

And the interview is halted.

Detectives send their evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service

for a charging decision.

PHONE VIBRATES

Hello, Cath Cummings.

Are you?

Bail, it's not quite there on an evidential threshold.

For God's sake!

Mr Witham, just want to step up here for us, mate. OK.

But in relation to the murder you allegedly been involved

with and arrested for, there's decision being made

that you're going to be bailed on that matter. OK?

The request on us is to convince the CPS that it can't

have been anybody else.

So what we now need to do, and really with a fine-tooth comb,

is go through all call data for all those relevant people

that we believe were in the flat earlier on that day

into the evening.

And then the two that leave can only be Witham and Peers.

Why I feel frustrated is having to go and explain

to the family, yeah, we have made two arrests today,

but that unfortunately there isn't sufficient to charge.

We've had to release them on bail.

Also, we as the police have now got to manage these two individuals

in the communities, who also have access to a firearm.

SIREN BLARES

The trial's getting under way of the man accused of shooting dead

a nine-year-old girl at her home in Liverpool last summer.

Thomas Cashman denies murdering Olivia Pratt-Korbel in Dovecot.

Olivia's mother has just arrived there she is surrounded

by friends and family.

The trial was moved from Liverpool to Manchester

because they were concerned at just how strong the feelings

were in Liverpool, and whether that trial could be carried out fairly.

Judge Mrs Justice Yip noted the details of the case

will be sensitive, and said it would be normal for jurors

to experience emotions.

But she added, "It's important you put your emotions aside

"when listening to the evidence."

Cashman insisted he wasn't the gunman.

He claimed he'd been stitched up and appearing to become tearful.

He told the jury, "I'm not a killer, I'm a dad.

"I'm getting blamed for something I haven't done."

So can you see Cashman in the courtroom?

At the beginning, yes.

but they've pulled the blind down on the side where I'm sat.

I'd been told he'd asked for it to be pulled

down because we're intimidating.

Just by looking at him, and I've got every right to look at him.

I needed to because I wanted to see if there was any remorse...

..and there wasn't.

Nothing.

It's listening to him pleading his innocence,

which is more frustrating.

What are you doing just now?

Um, putting together my victim impact statement.

There's so much that I want to put in...

..for people to understand,

and especially Cashman.

To understand who Liv was...

..and for him to understand what he's done.

Understand what we've lost.

"Liv never stopped talking.

"Literally never.

"I would do and give anything in the world

"to have her chatting to me.

"It's so very lonely without her.

"She will never get to make her holy communion,

"wear that prom dress or have a Sweet 16 birthday.

"Walk down the aisle with the man of her dreams, or become a mother

"of her own children.

"This happened in our home where we felt safe,

"and that night when I realised Liv had been shot and needed me...

"..I was not able to do CPR properly on her because of my injury.

"I did not have full use of my hands and I felt helpless.

"My worst nightmare was being separated from Liv...

"and not being with her when she needed me the most.

"I was the first person to hold my baby girl,

"and as her mum, I should have been the last.

"Now I have to drive to the cemetery to be close to my baby daughter.

"I sit with her and talk to her, telling her I miss her smile,

"her kisses, her cuddles, her voice.

"I tell her she will live on in my heart.

"She will always be with us.

"My little shadow.

"We love you endless amounts, Liv."

And you'd like to say that to Cashman?

Yeah.

Yeah, very much so.

Because Liv hasn't got a voice any more.

I will be her voice.

APPLAUSE

Hundreds of balloons were released in Sefton Park in Liverpool

in honour of Ashley Dale.

Friends and family gathered to celebrate her life.

So I've known Ashley since we were two years of age.

We've grown up together. We've done everything together.

Went to secondary school together, finished uni at the same time.

We should have had many more milestones to come.

30th birthdays, babies, marriages.

I can't put into words how we feel to have her taken from us.

She had a violent death for just such a gentle soul.

If it can happen to Ashley, it can happen to anyone.

And that's the...scariest thing.

The gun crime in this city has got to stop.

It's got to stop.

So we seized this phone, which is an Encro enabled

phone from Niall Barry.

An Encro phone is a encrypted device.

This enables criminals to conduct their activities undetected.

It can be anything from supplying drugs, supplying firearms.

People like Barry thought that these messages would stay private,

but our colleagues in Europe cracked the encryption.

Detectives discover messages Nigel Barry sent to Sean Zeisz,

a lieutenant in his OCG who was with him on the night

of Ashley's murder.

Barry and Zeisz are shifting serious quantities of drugs. Oh, yeah.

We've got Niall Barry being offered,

um, cocaine here.

"They look sound, bro. I'll probably take four, bro.

"I'll take the four, and we'll pass £80,000 up front today."

So he's got a lot of cash on him.

Niall Barry's clearly shopping around for a firearm.

Jesus.

He's being offered two AK-47s. Nice.

85 sweets. So 85 bullets with each. Yeah.

One TEC-9 self-loading pistol.

Yeah. With either 2 or 400 sweets.

Yeah. Quite interestingly, one Scorpion with suppressor.

And said, "The scorp will defo have get us prices."

The Scorpion submachine gun was the same weapon that was used

to murder Ashley. Yeah, it was. Yeah.

We've got a conversation between Niall Barry and Sean Zeisz

regarding firearms here, mate.

They're plotting to attack someone who's stolen Sean's electric bike.

It's quite scary the way it reads. Go on.

Barry instructs Zeisz.

"Get that 38.

"Just get that and the scorp."

It looks like he's not scared to use it as he tells Sean,

"I reckon we blaze both gaffs."

"Just wait for them to run out..." Yeah.

"..and when they do, just do them."

It sounds like he wants to shoot him, dunnit?

He certainly does. And Sean seems to agree - "100%", he says.

Good morning, everyone.

This who were looking to arrest this morning, Niall Barry.

He was arrested initially on suspicion of

the murder of Ashley Dale.

However, he is to be arrested in relation

to a significant drug conspiracy.

He's also to be arrested for conspiracy to possess a firearm

without certificate and conspiracy to commit GBH.

What channel are we on?

Six, isn't it?

Yes. Niall Barry.

So it's N-I-A-L-L.

Get your cameras on.

It's open. It's open.

Property-wise, you say you've just got cash on you,

is that all you've got?

I've got £120 in my pocket.

No problem. OK.

Right. OK.

Boss, we've got Barry.

Sean Zeisz, the man who was with Barry on the night of Ashley's

murder, is also arrested.

Away from me, mate.

Eh, eh! Don't be making threats in here.

Tell you that now. Don't be making threats in here.

This interview is being digitally audio recorded.

Is your lifestyle funded from you selling drugs, Niall?

Quantities we have attributed to yourself are 22.25kg of cocaine,

2.5kg of heroin and 27kg of cannabis.

You're also arrested for conspiracy to possess a firearm

without a certificate and also conspiracy to commit GBH.

Have you got any knowledge of firearms at all, Niall?

Sean Zeisz, that's a friend of yours, isn't it?

He's someone you do business with nowadays.

You ever heard the term "scorp" before, Sean?

Firearms expert suggested

that's a Czechoslovakian self-loading pistol.

And then you say, "He's gonna have to get it, ain't he?"

He's going to have to get what?

He's got to get what's coming to him?

"I reckon we blaze both gaffs...

"..shoot at both gaffes and wait for them to run out.

"When they do, just do them."

Is that you planning an attack on the individuals responsible...

..for stealing your bike?

Not just an attack, a firearms attack.

Have we got anything wrong there at all?

Sean, anything you want to add?

And the interview's now at an end.

Boss, the CPS have got back to us about Barry and Zeisz.

Ellison's emailed me to say he's had a look.

He's happy to charge with all the offences that we thought.

Brilliant!

I want the family to know first about the arrests

before anything goes out.

Yeah? Thank you.

No problem, no worries.

Right, OK, Sean.

Sean? Yeah.

Can you hear me, mate? Yeah. Right, OK.

You conspired together with other persons to supply

a quantity of cocaine - a controlled drug of class A.

Is there any reply?

No reply.

You conspired together with other persons to have in your possession

firearms, namely revolvers and self-loading pistols.

And that's contrary to section 1-1 of the Criminal Law Act '77.

Any reply? No. No.

The charges for Barry and Zeisz is fantastic news

at this stage of the murder investigation, because what it means

is they will be remanded into custody, which ultimately takes

them off the streets.

And just sign here for us, please.

The focus now at all levels across the team

is for Witham and Peers that remain

on police bail and prove their involvement in Ashley's murder.

Your bodycam's rolling, isn't it?

Police responding to an incident in St Helens

make an unexpected discovery.

While I'm here, I'm just going to check that, because there's

one outstanding for a very serious offence.

Yep, that's the one.

There's a marker on in relation to Ashley Dale's murder.

It's the vehicle linked for that.

Don't go anywhere near it.

I knew it was.

It's on a false plate. And it's on a false plate.

The Hyundai Fastback is examined for any evidence

that may link it to the shooting.

It's weird seeing it in person.

I've been looking at on CCTV for weeks and weeks and weeks.

I know, yeah. I know.

Yeah, I'm amazed it's not on a boat to China.

Fingers crossed they'll find something that connects

Witham and Peers to this car.

Detectives analyse call data from phones used by the suspects

on the night of Ashley's murder.

Morning, boss. I've just gone through the CCTV and the telecoms,

and we've produced a sequence of events.

We've got some CCTV of Joseph Peers going to the local shop

next to the flat, where we can see that Peers purchases a SIM card.

Now, when we done some enquiries, that SIM card was used

nine minutes later by Barry.

First-ever used.

But that makes some significant calls later on

in the lead-up to the murder.

That's on the CCTV. Obviously, the two of them have left the flat,

Witham and Peers, and that's at 2210.

You then see at 2243, that SIM card attempts to make

a one-second phone call to Witham.

But it's Witham just left the flat? Yes.

And then you've also got, ten seconds later, Barry then tries

to speak to Joseph Peers for two seconds.

So, because he can't get hold of Witham, he then tries Peers.

He does, yeah.

So, that shows that by that time they're still together, aren't they?

Yes. Well, he thinks that they're still together. Yeah.

So, then we move forward.

2310, Sean Zeisz makes a 23-second phone call to Joseph Peers.

That is about 26 minutes before the tyres are slashed

on Ashley's vehicle.

You'll see from the cell site at the time, Witham, just before

the tyres are slashed, his cell site's within the area

of Ashley Dale's home address.

Wow. God, that's significant, isn't it? Yeah.

So, we believe that Ashley was murdered at approximately 0033.

The next phone call we've got is at 0047.

Sean Zeisz makes two attempts calls to Joseph Peers.

And then we'll see the first successful contact at 0059.

So, about 27 minutes after Ashley was murdered,

and that's Joseph Peers to Sean Zeisz.

Shortly after that phone call,

Niall Barry is checking the Liverpool Echo, at 1:01 and 1:03.

At 0125, we're seeing James Whitham and Joseph Peers

returning to the flat.

Whilst they're still in the flat, at 0138, now Barry's making

a further Google search on the Liverpool Echo,

and that continues into the early hours of the morning.

That is the first press release.

So, that's at 0926.

30 minutes later, now Barry accesses the Liverpool Echo.

So, basically, we've got now Barry and Sean Zeisz in that flat,

trying to get hold of the only two people that have left it. Yes.

James Witham and Joseph Peers.

This could be enough now to charge the two of them.

Hello. Is it James?

What? What's your name? James.

You're currently under arrest for murder, all right. What?

You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence

if you don't mention when questioned something you later rely on

in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

Just take a seat in there for me, mate.

Mr Witham, do you know why you're here?

Do you understand that you've been arrested on suspicion of murder?

The murder of Ashley Dale.

Are you staying silent now because you've been told to?

Who has the type of power to silence you like that?

So, in your first set of interviews, we spoke about a vehicle

which was key to the offence, which was, namely, a grey Hyundai i30.

Do you know anything further about that vehicle at this point?

No comment.

Merseyside Police have discovered the grey Hyundai.

So, we've forensically examined the vehicle, James.

And there's one exhibit that I want to discuss with you,

which is exhibit reference SM81.

It's a black bottle top from the rear nearside footwell

of the vehicle.

Your DNA is present on that bottle top.

To your knowledge, have you and Joseph, ever shared a bottled drink?

The major DNA profile matches the reference DNA profile

for Joseph Peers.

So, can you account of how that has come to be in that car?

No comment.

Because you've been in that car, simple as that.

No comment.

We're going to move on to some telecoms evidence.

Mobile phone number which we've linked to you,

coincidentally, powers down before the murder takes place.

There's Pilch Lane flat.

There's the murder scene.

And there's round about where you were

when you switched your phone off.

Roughly, four-minute journey in a car.

Do you find that interesting, James?

Because what's interesting, as well, is your mate,

Joseph Peers, switches his phone off at about the same time.

And, interestingly, he switched his back on again

three minutes after Ashley was murdered.

Why did your phone go silent?

Because it seems to us on the investigation team that,

well, perhaps you were just about to go and do something highly illegal.

Highly dangerous.

Something that you might get in a lot of trouble for.

Mr Witham, this is your last chance.

Do you want to tell us absolutely anything about anything

that we've spelled out here?

Are you protecting the person who murdered Ashley Dale

with your silence?

Is it easier not to say anything and take the repercussions,

whatever they may be, than risk the repercussions of talking?

Or is it that there's an agreed code of silence?

I've got no further questions. Nothing from me.

Charge is coming across now.

Dead nervous!

Has it come through?

Right. Brilliant.

Just had the authorities to charge through from CPS.

So, are you free now to put those charges on?

Yes. Of course. I'll put the charge.

Possession of a firearm and murder for both.

Full Code Test applied.

Well done. I know this is a lot to do, but...fantastic result.

I'm just racing out to the family now.

You all right, James?

So a decision has come back and you're going to be charged.

First charge is one for murder.

On the 21st of August 2022,

at Leinster Road, Liverpool, Merseyside,

you murdered Ashley Dale, contrary to common law.

Any reply to that first charge?

No.

You, without the authority of the Secretary of State,

purchased or acquired a firearm - namely a Skorpion machine pistol.

And that's contrary to Section 51A and Schedule 6

of the Firearms Act 1968.

NEWSREADER: Two men have been remanded in custody,

charged with the murder of Ashley Dale in Liverpool.

They're due to appear again at Liverpool Crown Court

later this week.

REPORTER: Thomas Cashman, guilty of the murder of Olivia Pratt-Korbel...

Yes!

..guilty, in fact, on all five counts.

REPORTER: Gasps and tears, we're told,

from Olivia's family as the verdicts returned

and Cashman turning back to his family, shaking his head.

NEWSREADER: We're standing by for the sentencing

at Manchester Crown Court of Thomas Cashman,

found guilty of the murder of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Korbel.

While we continue to wait for the sentencing of Thomas Cashman,

there has been a delay

because Thomas Cashman wishes to be sentenced in his absence.

He is refusing to enter the courtroom.

Mr Cashman has been brought to court today

but has refused to come from the cells to be sentenced.

I am therefore left with no choice but to sentence him in his absence.

I now pronounce the sentence.

On count one, for the murder of Olivia Pratt-Korbel,

the sentence will be life imprisonment.

The minimum term will be 42 years...

Oh! ..plus the time the defendant has already spent on remand.

CHEERING

42 years, that's a huge minimum sentence,

which means that he will be 76

before he's got any chance of being released.

My thanks go to the witnesses

who bravely assisted the prosecution case

and defied the usual stance of "People do not grass."

Today's sentence will never bring Olivia back.

I hope that the sentence of 42 years given to Thomas Cashman today

will act as a deterrent for anyone who thinks of picking up a gun

and putting our communities at risk through their reckless behaviour.

Thank you. Thank you all.

We're going to head over that way.

REPORTER: On the streets of Liverpool

is a family determined to make itself heard.

Hi! Would you like to support our online petition today

to support Face the Family? It's to make offenders to stand up in court

and face the family rather than hiding themselves.

They're calling for a change in the law to force criminals

to attend their sentencing.

Basically, do you remember little Olivia?

It's that lady, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

That's Liv, and I'm her sister.

Trying to get as many signatures as we can,

make this change in the law,

not so much to look him in the eye -

because I knew he wouldn't look me in the eye -

but for him to hear the pain that we went through,

the pain that he caused.

PRODUCER: And what was it like for you when he didn't?

It was like a punch in the stomach.

Hi, guys. Would you like to help sign our petition, please?

Face the Family campaign.

Get offenders into the dock.

Going to prison is supposed to be a rehabilitation.

That first port of call of rehabilitation

should be in that courtroom.

Actions speak louder than words,

and we said we were going to make a noise

and that's exactly what we're doing today.

NEWSREADER: Four men have each been told

that they will spend more than 40 years in prison

for murdering Ashley Dale in Liverpool last August.

REPORTER: The prosecution saying this was a deliberate and merciless

intent to kill, that James Whitham and Joseph Peers were dispatched

to assassinate Lee Harrison and leave no witnesses.

REPORTER: Niall Barry, the main instigator of the shooting,

got life with a minimum of 47 years.

Gunman James Witham will serve at least 43 years,

another plotter, Sean Zeisz, 42 years,

and getaway driver Joseph Peers, 41 years.

As James Witham stormed into Ashley's home that night,

wearing a balaclava, firing from a Skorpion submachine gun,

he took away Ashley, an ambitious, bubbly, charismatic young woman -

the community rocked,

her family and friends left devastated.

Whilst they will never get over losing their Ashley,

following today's results, I and the rest of the team hope

they will find some comfort in the knowledge

that those responsible will spend the rest of their lives behind bars.

The biggest thing that came out for me in the court

was that this feud that had been going on with the defendant

and Ashley's boyfriend, Lee, Ashley had major anxieties...over it.

And that came out in court and we didn't know anything about it.

And that... That is probably one of the hardest parts for me,

that me and Ashley were so close, but she didn't feel able to come

and talk about them anxieties that she had.

I don't think for one minute she thought that

something this serious would happen, cos who would?

Who would think that someone is going to burst into your home

at half past midnight at night and fire 15 shots? No-one.

It doesn't happen, it's not heard of, but it's happened to us.

PRODUCER: What was it like reading out

your victim impact statement in court?

I felt like that was my only chance to be able to speak to the defendant

and look them in the eye and tell them what they've done to my family.

And I addressed James Witham by name

when I told him that I hope he sees my baby girl's face every night

when he goes to sleep and he walked out the dock.

Why do you think he walked out of the dock?

Cos he knew what he'd done and, yeah, he couldn't take it.

He couldn't face it.

A couple of months after this happened to Ashley,

her work colleagues thought about doing, like, a tribute.

We thought the park where she loved coming would be a perfect place,

somewhere to come and remember Ashley.

She was my daughter. She was, you know, very important to me.

Sorry.

She loved life.

She just brought joy to us all the time.

Losing her, it's just left a hole in our family.

It's just a hole that will never be filled.

Hi. Morning. Morning. How are you? Yeah, not too bad. I'm Rishi.

Cheryl. Very nice to see you, Cheryl. Nice to meet you.

REPORTER: This was the day Cheryl Korbel's determination

to secure her daughter's legacy brought her

to the Prime Minister's door.

For the person responsible not to show up to his sentencing hearing

is just profoundly wrong.

It's not... It's not right.

And I could see all the emotion

that you had put into your impact statement.

And it's not an easy thing to do. This is the thing.

Like, after you have put all of that of yourself into it,

for him to just take the easy way out

and then not have to hear that and face up to what he's done,

it just... It isn't right.

And that's why today, we're announcing

that we're going to change that.

So it won't be possible any longer for people like him

to take the coward's way out.

When the Prime Minister met Cheryl Korbel today, he was able

to pledge that the change in the law that she and other families

have been campaigning for will now take place.

Under new rules, judges will be able to force offenders

to attend sentencing hearings.

Some flowers.

Boss, isn't it? Yeah.

She's done a boss job of that, hasn't she?

This is fab. The flowers... The colours are gorgeous as well.

This is Olivia's butterfly garden.

The butterfly was a workshop that was done in school,

the kids from St Margaret Mary's.

A lot of them were Olivia's friends.

And I thought it would help the children to remember Liv.

It's everything that Liv loved -

butterflies, the flowers,

the music notes.

It's so peaceful.

The minute you walk through the gates,

it's like a ton weight's been lifted.

You often get a butterfly or a robin that comes down,

so I feel as though she's here as well.

PRODUCER: Why is changing the law important to you?

We see it as Olivia's Law.

For her to be remembered.

Erm... She'll never be forgotten anyway.

I couldn't help her that night...

..and I managed...

..the change of law in her name.

It's big.

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