All language subtitles for Mehdi Hasan & Victor Gao at Forum

from Ukraine to Gaza the world seems more divided and uncertain than it's been for years Global powers and Western

alliances have been put to the test and amid the turmoil China is rising to

challenge the world order Chinese president Xi Jinping now in his third term in office has high ambitions

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territorial disputes have sparked fears of a larger conflict that could have Regional and Global implications you

have approached the waters near Chinese J including in the contested Waters of

the South China Sea your curse leave and keep F over and in Taiwan where the

threat of a Chinese military Invasion looms larger meanwhile at home attacks on

basic freedoms and human rights have become more severe like in Shin Jang where China continues to commit serious

human rights abuses some say a genocide against the weager Muslims so how far

will China's autocratic Vision reach and will long simmering tension with the West hit a boiling

point I'm M Hassen and I've come here to London's legendary Conway Hall to go

head-to-head with Victor gal he's vice president of of the center for China and globalization in Beijing former

interpreter for the late Chinese leader Deng shiao ping and a proud defender of the People's Republic I'll ask him about

China's Global Ambitions and its aggressive Crackdown on human rights and civil

liberties tonight I'll also be joined by three experts Steven Chan a professor at

the University of London's School of Oriental and African studies rahan Assad

a human rights lawyer of weer Heritage and Martin Jake author of the bestseller

when China rules the world and a political commentator on [Music]

[Applause]

China Victor gal thank you so much for joining me on head-to head this evening here in London thank you for having me

China has upped its military spending it's expanding its nuclear Arsenal it now has the biggest Navy in the world

Chinese president Xi Jinping has said that the country's military should be capable of quote fighting and winning

wars and told the military to focus all your energy on fighting improve your capability to win Victor who do you want

to fight and who do you want to win against first of all the Chinese military spending is the second largest

in the world but it is only a fraction of that of the United States and China

has a very uh difficult geopolitical situation China has 14 land and

neighboring countries all together and six Maritime Nations uh for China

therefore China's defense defensive in nature is not for fighting anyone except

those who want to invade China or to launch a war against China China's

military spending is for peace rather than war and War will be forced upon

China and China need to fight back you say it's for peace but your neighbors don't agree your neighbors are pretty worried about you you go through the

list Japan has sounded the alarm saying your military buildup is very serious concern to them India is worried about

China on its border and the Philippines president has warned that China is becoming a more pronounced and worrisome

threat he says those are the elected governments of countries representing over 1.6 billion people in Asia this is

not the United States this is not the West this is Asian neighbors saying we're worried about China may you

mentioned the three of the neighboring countries of China uh let's talk about one of them one each of them very

quickly Japan unconditionally surrendered not only to the United States but also to China in

1945 and if you read very carefully the unconditional surrender document that

Japan signed then you will know how Japan need to conduct its foreign affairs as well as its military troops

uh with China and with all those countries that Japan unconditionally surrendered for India is a great nation

and there is a territorial dispute between China and India but that dispute

was not created by China neither was it created by India it was created or left

behind by the British Indian uh government that's great history lesson

but right now China in 24 the defense spending is going up by 7% the most for

5 years you've had 29 consecutive years of military expenditure growth the most

of any country in the world since 2022 China has increased military drills around Taiwan it's escalated since the

new Taiwanese president was inaugurated in May China is not a fan of him since then there's been almost daily activity

involving China's warships drones cyber attacks against Taiwan China is getting ready to invade Taiwan isn't it there is

only one China Taiwan is part of China and the government of the People's Republic of China is the sole legitimate

government for the totality of China the exact status between the two sides of

the Taiwan state is The Unfinished Civil War back in 1949 so ever since the beginning of the

1980s China does not want to use a war to solve this unification problem you don't want to use a war but you're

surrounding it with ships drones cyber attacks and making lots of threats each time when the separatists in Taiwan want

to push the edge of the envelope they will come across more and more

demonstration of the commitment of the Chinese Nation to eventually achieve peaceful reunification or otherwise

that's the lious test your defense minister said anyone who dares to pursue independence for Taiwan will be crushed

into pieces and face destruction sounds like a truly peaceful guy that's a real

statement because if the separatists if the separatists really want to put P the

edge of the envelope with the aid of some big country for example which wants to use Taiwan as a proxy in its own

geopolitical rivalry against China then wait until you see what will happen

reunification will be achieved and China is the only permanent member of the United Nations security Council which

has not yet achieved a complete reunification what I'm what I I'm always amused with this phrase reunification

because if it's one China that clearly it's not One China clearly you're accepting by definition if you need to reunify it they are doing their own

thing and why this obsession with Taiwan you are a country of 3.7 million square

miles a population 60 times that of Taiwan economy 20 times the size of Taiwan why are you obsessed with Taiwan

why not just leave them be in terms of Defending China's sovereignty and

territorial Integrity any inch of land is not one inch too much any one single

person is not one one person too many so we need to achieve reunification as even

though they don't want to be part of your country 12% of the people of Taiwan say they want to reunify with China

12% you can't get more unpopular than that in thaty it's not up to the people in Taiwan to decide about the one China

policy you're very blunt in your disregard for people's views freedoms dignity you say that you don't care

about what they think you also said in an interview with the French newspaper lemond once we get the island back we'll

have to ask everyone's Origins those who have Japanese ancestry who you basicly say cons constitute 10% of the

population will have to pledge loyalty to reunification and writing otherwise

will'll have to help them leave you're basically calling for the ethnic cleansing of 2.3 million people in

Taiwan no you remember back in 1945 when Japan unconditionally

surrendered a lot of people in Taiwan who originally came from Japan they were

the rulers of uh Taiwan at the time they stay behind because of the magnanimity

of the Chinese Nation now several decades later they account for about 10%

of the local population in Taiwan now if you really do your homework you will

realize that those Die Hard Taiwanese separatists include many of these

Japanese but okay but you would get rid of them you would get rid of 2.3 million people no after the reunification

everyone in Taiwan need to make a pledge whether they acknowledge there is only one China and Taiwan is part of China

and if they don't make that pledge they us those who pledge wow for the one China policy they are local you didn't

by the way you didn't say everyone you said of Japanese descent that is literally ethnical you're picking people by their ethnic Heritage making them do

a loyalty test otherwise they have to get out of the country they've is not a loyalty test here for example in Britain

if you are a British citizen you need to support the monarchy you cannot say I no

I'm standing in Britain don't support the monarchy I don't like King Charles no you cannot say no I just said it m I

literally just said it you cannot take any action to oppose the monarchy system but I don't have to sign a pledge saying

I support King Charles well each country is different we are talking about China China is very and China has one policy

which is part of the Constitution involves people in Taiwan who don't want to be part of your country let's bring

in our panel who are waiting to come in and join let's see what they think I'm joined by Steven uh Chan professor at the University of London School of

Oriental and African studies um if you're in Taiwan today how worried are you about Al looming Invasion I'm not in

Taiwan today I'm going to be visiting next year I've been there five times in all of the great cities of Taiwan and

what I've noticed most conspicuously is that nobody I've talked to wants to rejoin or reunify with China because of

their sense of freedom and their sense of self-determination so I think that if

you're going to say our sovereignty matters more than your desire for your own self-determination and freedom then

you're doing something that will not make you popular in Taiwan and you won't win the argument for Chinese sovereignty

over the island Martin uh Martin Jakes is here with us author of the bestselling book when China rules the

world Martin you've said in the past that China cannot should not be seen through a solely Western lens so I and I

agree with you and there's issues there but I began the show by asking Victor about Japan and India and the

Philippines separate Taiwan just the issues in the region do you think China is responsible for some of those issues

all of those issues none of those issues well China is obviously involved in inevitably in all of those issues um I

think that uh that actually if you look at the rise of China over the last you

know 30 40 years spectacular biggest change we've ever seen in history really

and uh inevitably that is changing everything in the region in the world uh

that doesn't but the remarkable thing I'd say Med about China's R is how you

quoted the military figures and so on but China has not fought any wars since 1979 if you compare that with America

Europe Japan at the same stage of development they were they were extremely aggressive um let's talk human

rights Victor you've called Wagers in China's shinjang Province your brothers and sisters how do you feel about the

fact that at least half a million some say more of your brothers and sisters are being detained in camps by the

Chinese government that's 5% % of the adult weager population one of the highest imprisonment detention rates in

the world Med the weagles are proud ethnic group one of the

56 ethnic nationalities in China The Wiggles as far as I'm concerned are my

true brothers and sisters I know many of them I travel to Shin Jang regularly and I talk to many other wigos now if anyone

is serious about accusing China of practicing mass in Justice to the

weagles give me the evidence I think just did Human Rights Watch say half a million people detained over the years

in recent years you keep quote Human Rights Watch and I tell you do you know where they got those numbers from I

don't know can I tell you I I don't know I thought you were the exper you to shinjang you've spoken to wegers you

never heard these numbers I do not know where did they get the source so their source is the shinjang high people's

procurator uh which has published its own statistics shinjang official body which says it's convicted 54 4,826

people prosecuted in the region since 2017 the United Nations office for human rights looked at satellite footage they

say 10 to 20% of the population amnesty estimates a million people in camps half

a million is a conservative number many if you called that organization please be assured that that organization has

been completely discredited for the false information they every so this I

love this game we're playing you give give me a source I give you a source they're discredited they've said falsehoods how can let me ask you a

question how many people are in detention in shinjang you give me a number listen if you look at sh you give

me a number if you look and I do not have the number why not yeah hold on you can't say it's not half a million and

then say you don't have a number I have a number I have sources how many people do you think a det let me give you my

reason no I go to shinjang a lot I travel almost your brothers and sisters you go there a lot but you can't tell me

how many people are in detention listen they are happier they enjoy their life they enjoy their Muslim practice and

traditions listen how many people are in detention Victor many let me be philosophical no don't be philosophical

be numerical how many people are in detention you said not to no to half a million how about okay let's quarter of

a million let me let me let me finish my point nope if you answer the question you can't filibuster Victor on the show

anyone many do think Independence they will be dwelt with in how many of them

are in court and how many detention the very small minority so you don't have a number you say they're all happy but you

won't let in dependent investigators you won't letting journalists to go there why not there I will be happy to escort

you to Jing Jang really I can make that promise I will speak to the Chinese government here's the problem Chinese I

don't want escort I don't want minders I want to go freely will you allow that I do not made that decision oh a moment

ago you were going to make all sorts of interruptions suddenly I said let me go freely and speak to weas freely can I do that with no minders no Chinese

government escort I will be happy to make your case oh just now you said you'd organize it now we're about make a

case you can't guarantee uh rahan Assad is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council international human rights lawyer you are a weager uh who Victor

says brothers and sisters your literal brother has been held in an internment

camp in shinjang since 2016 I believe rahan tell us what happened to your brother and what is your response to

Victor to what you've heard and what is the latest on your brother if you don't mind sharing with us yeah my brother

Akbar Assad is a prominent Tech entrepreneur in fact your own media Outlet called him bright star in the

tech world right before his detention he was invited on a state Galla dinner and

then he disappeared how could you explain now M again in China we have about 20

Muslim ethnic groups you need to ask one question why the extremism existed

mostly among the wial communities because there are extremists among the

wigo community who want to separate Shin Jang away from your brother been convicted of any supported by CIA and

other Western organizations that's the real truth hold on talk to the hazaks they don't support

has your brother been convicted of a crime um according to un there's no trial has taken place he just forcibly

disappeared actually it amount the en Force disappearance but according to the Chinese government he committed a crime

of inciting ethnic discrimination while he's a systematically oppressed and when

I challenge that decision because under under the Chinese law if you're committed with the alleged crime that

you you have three years sentences but he got 15 years how do you in justify that then they switch the crime so how

do you even explain this is a rule of law system you mentioned that if people are not pro- independent then they're

fine in shinjang my brother by no means is pro- independent in fact your media

Outlet sees daily media invited him to exchange information did he split the

country when he visited beij you okay with the treatment of her brother M in front of this very Augusto body let me

make several very brief points the real crime involved by some of the wigo

people are agitating for shinjang Independence they violate the one China

policy Now set separate from that you know different communities May F find

their own different problems which need to be sorted out in the cuse of Law and

I hope but our brother's been detained for eight years well I did not know the ch I hope I can help you to really look

at the case at the accusation against him I hope your brother is not guilty of

inciting for separatism of Shing Jang if that is the case then let the law take

its CA well your media out that called him a model citizen who is a promoter of ethnic unity in sh have you been able to

speak to your brother or no not at all like you know for eight years he's forcibly disappeared um up until like

last months for the first time my parents saw him what kind of justice system is that you're making a mockery

you're not just detaining them Victor they're being tortured numerous testimonies the UN has collected are you

okay with that M when you talk about torture think about Guantanamo Bay prison oh my word rather than in Shin

Jang Shin Jang is a place of great peace and

stability hold on Victor the accounts of detainees include being beaten with Batts electric Batts while strapped in a

So-Cal tiger ch 158 being subjected to interrogation with water poured on their faces

prolonged solitary confinement forced to sit motionless on stools for long periods like this you're okay with this

this is the proud China probably you are reading the case in Iraq committed by the American solders I'm reading the U

report in August 2022 from detainees who came out of camps in Shin Jang you're

brothers and sisters but these brothers and sisters you don't seem to give a damn about how do you know any torture happened in Iraq out of Interest I know

how I know for sure how I talked to the Iraqi Ambassador in Beijing okay he wept in front of me and I'm sure Ran's

parents have wept and you don't seem to care and I hope you will tell your brother be a staunch supporter of one

China policy be a proud Chinese she can't tell him cuz she can't

speak to him because you deny access Victor Victor she can't speak to him are you going to arrange it are you going to

arrange a visit now I'd be happy to help you make a phone call there's a lot of promises being made here guys you should uh follow up on this office you are all

Witnesses we Are Witnesses indeed let me bring in Martin Jake Martin when you hear people say basically there's no

torture everyone's making it up there's nobody in detention come on that's ridiculous is it not Martin well I mean

I don't know all the details of the situation in ch Shin Jang but clearly

there's been a big problem for a long time in Shin Jang in terms of the

relationship between the weer and the Han and that came to a head in 2009

when there was a demonstration and 200 people were killed by by the weer then

the Chinese Chinese inflicted the same kind of damage on the so this is not

this is this is a deep problem in my view and it's not easily passed up there's no other problem in China of

this kind yeah but people consider that's a pretty big problem it's a very big problem for them yeah and I do the

other thing bet I'd say is that um um the point that's being made about

separatism is true that I think that what the 30 million Muslims in China the

ha is the biggest single minority they have they are completely integrated but the problem the problem is shin Jang is

clearly the issue of separatism Stephen let me ask you this question Victor's making a lot of promises tonight about

me going to shinjang and rean going to Shin everyone's going to be fine how how safe how okay are you with

visiting China how how free do you think you are when you go to China when I go to China and I haven't been for some

time I'm watched almost 247 there's always someone I can spot is

trailing me so I know when my hotel room is upgraded suddenly to a spacious Suite

I'm now in a place which is bugged so someone who's a mild critic and a

scholarly critic like me doesn't feel safe in China by contrast I feel safer

in time iwan Victor when you hear Steven say he doesn't feel that safe going to

China prefers going to Taiwan when we talk about freedom of speech for example in China I live in the United States of

America where I can say that Donald Trump is a I don't know hypothetically an orang faed

narcissist I also live here in the UK I'm British here you have Rishi sunak the former prime minister was called a

pints siiz Loser by a labor politician um no one in China has that

kind of fright freedom to talk about their government to talk about President Xi Jinping in that way you can't say

anything like you wouldn't dare say anything like that because you know what will happen to you when you go home you know what will happen to your family

that's what China is M if you do anything write anything email or chat to

your friends about taking any action against let's say prime minister of Britain president of the United States

you'll be dwelt with swiftly Victor you're a master of not what I said I

said was called a pint-sized loser would you call Xi Jinping a pint-sized loser many each country has different

sensitivities in UK so you're admitting you can't criticize the Chinese government no no no you can criticize

the government if you are positive inity you can criticize the government if you're positive is that the new

philosophy no if you can come up with your you got to come up with nice insults no what then constructive advice

constructive advice for example in dealing with a aging population what should be the government do what should

this governor should do but you can't say the president's lied he's a liar nothing you will be DeWalt with very

swiftly in China you cannot say that that is the most honest thing you've said tonight uh Victor gal we're going to take a break that's part one of

head-to-head with our guest vict to gal in part two we'll be talking about President Xi Jinping we'll be talking

about the issue of dictatorship and we'll hear from our very patient audience here in London's Conway Hall

[Music] [Applause]

welcome back to head-to-head on Al jazer English my guest this week is Victor gal former interpreter to the late Chinese

leader Den Shao ping vice president of the center for China and globalization in Beijing and an Ardent promoter of the

People's Republic we're also joined by an expert panel here in London's Conway Hall and a live audience who we're going

to hear from shortly Victor before we get to the audience in 2019 on this very show I asked the question is she being

gearing up to be president for Life dictator in Chief I mean he's the most powerful leader of China since Ma he's

abolished presidential term limits he's now in his third five-year term as president so I'll ask again tonight is

he now president for Life a true dictator for the record first of all

Chinese president XI jining will never be president for Life there will be a time limit when it will be will be

handled according to the Chinese legal system and Constitution secondly there is no dictator in China why because

dictatorship simply doesn't work democracy means modernization and how

can you explain profound transformation of China over the past 45 years in China

if you have dictatorship or authoritarian rule no every leader in

China will be put into a team and teamwork will be much more important

than individualism Victor maybe previous president did maybe Jang zamin or huin

everyone knows xiin ping has centralized power Consolidated power got rid of term limits you say there's a way to get rid

of him but there isn't actually a legal way to get rid of him he's in power for life and he likes being a dictator why are we pretending Med allow me to remind

you the Communist Party of China which is the ruling party of China has a membership of up to 100 million people

it's well structured every Province every state owned Enterprise Etc will

have a part cell there's no division or debate within the Chinese Communist Party listen to me no

single person in China can dictate to a population of 1.4 billion people and 100

million membership of the Communist Party of China okay let's test that that's a mission impossible Let's test

that proposition the president won a vote last year won a vote I'll put that in air quotes do you know the tally of

last year's presidential vote in favor of Xi Jinping by the national people's Congress part of that structure you just

advertised to us what was the vote can you tell our audience here I think it's up to about 100% that doesn't

2,952 to zero yes that's exactly what I said could you not find a few people

just to make it look a little even one or two many it's not surprising it's not

surprising 2952 to zero one R the Chinese system everyone

supports the Chinese president that's you just told us 10 seconds ago there's this huge system a big party one guy and

then you're like oh no but everyone supports him zero votes against him one person out of 3,000 couldn't say she

jining not my guy one what if he is the guy for all the Communist Party of China

you never know know well if that's the case then your entire first answer is redundant because it doesn't matter if

there's 100 million people they all have to follow the leader no he does command huge respect among the Chinese people as

well as you say respect I say fear do you know how many names were on the ballot papers that were given in

2013 how many names were on the ballot paper when they went to choose the president can you tell our audience I think there is only one candidate yeah

there were no no no other names that's a real that's a real secure leader a guy who knows he has the

confidence of his people you get to vote but only for me and none of you can actually vote against me would you not

want to end up in a situation with six prime ministers in 8 years yeah so you

prefer a dictatorship no we prefer a system that works for the benefit of the

Chinese people I I have not said a word about what works or not you got great economic growth look at the

dictatorship there is no dictatorship M you just admitted that there's no name on the ballot paper no votes against him

and they all just follow him that's the dictatorship Med when you have a say by name multiple times after but it's a

dictator how many candidates are there on the ballot paper how many what king Queen when the king succeeds the queen

how many candidates are there on the ballet paper how many how many does that make Britain not a democracy well you're

asking the wrong guy I'm a republican so I think we should be a full democracy and get rid of the monarchy and I can say that here you can't say that in

China you cannot take any action against that yes I can actually I can go out on the street I can hold up a placard and say let's get rid of King Charles I can

create a whole protest outside Buckingham Palace you can't do that in China you can't even put one other person's name on a ballot paper that's

how insecure Your Leader is I'm I'm a lawyer in my capacity as a lawyer I can

give you a long list of things that you cannot do regarding the monarchy here in I'm not debating that I'm saying that we

have an elected government we get to choose we get to swap six Prime Ministers God help us but we get to pick

everyone in this room who's a citizen gets to pick listen you end up with your mini budget which bankrupt the whole

country that's an honest answer Victor but Victor I admire that because that's an honest answer your answer is it's a

dictatorship that works at least say that no no no you can't you keep dodging one minute you say it's not a doip then

I show you it is you say but it's working we've got growth my pick one myy if that is your point I will seriously

urge you to do more homework about how the Chinese system works okay let's talk about the Chinese system because I did a

little bit of homework a little bit of homework it's it's it's did you know that Xi Jinping put his name in the

Constitution that's weird well the leader of the country put his own name in the Constitution while he's president

no has done that since Ma none of the other Chinese presidents not huin taau not your old boss Deng Xiao ping none of

them did it did they or am I wrong it's wrong uh did the Chinese Constitution

has been most frequently amended compared with any other country am I wrong about what I just said with my

name was put into the Constitution I D's name was put into the while he was president and J's name was put into the

not while they were sitting presidents and you know that tell our crowd here not while they were president they didn't do it themselves according to

recollection each of were put into the cons while they were while the leaders were still alive okay so I'm right not

while they were president I love the little slip even Donald Trump one of the great narcissists of our time has not

proposed yet putting his name into the US Constitution if you are the president of China you're elected without any

opponents no names on the ballot paper zero votes against you you put your name in the Constitution six-year-olds are

taught about Xi Jinping thought in primary school that is not just the dictatorship that is a cult of

personality I don't think China believes in personal uh so why are six-year-olds learning about Xi Jinping thought I'm

pretty sure no six-year-olds learned about Liz truss's mini budget Victor the Chinese system is such

that once you Orient the country in One Direction everyone follows the suit do

they follow or they ordered to follow they don't follow out a choice no it's like a vehicle with four wheels here you

have four wheels aligned in different directions in directions in China the

four wheels of a car all lined up in One Direction They Don't going forward they don't Victor let me give you an example

former for the Chinese way former foreign minister chin gang was removed from his post and has not been seen in

public since June 2023 a few months later China's defense minister General Lee Shang Fu disappeared from public

view for months has now been expelled from the party accused of corruption that's at least two ministers that disappeared just in the last year with

apologies to Oscar wild to lose one Minister might be unfortunate to lose two is careless is it not do you know

the point I want to make this means China is really merciless in dealing with Corruption of all kinds even among

the foreign minister and defense Min imagine Anthony blinkin and Lloyd Austin just disappeared tomorrow we don't know

where they are we've never seen them again that's not normal Victor listen corruption is rampant how do we know

they're corrupt they just disappeared where's the trial the tri finish my point Corruption

of all kinds in China need to be dwelt with so where's the trial mercilessness so where's the trial where's the trial

of the former for is we don't even know where he is many those things you don't know doesn't mean doesn't happen where

is the trial for this man you're just accusing of corruption Chang was my good friend for more than 20 years where is

he then he is involved in corruption where is he and he is dwelt with very swiftly where is he Victor regardless of

your good friend you don't know where he is regardless of where is the for foreign minister of China this is not a

hard question we're not asking where Ran's brother in the middle of shin Jang is that you can dodge where is the former foreign minister of China who

disappeared and by the way he wasn't accused of corruption the spokesman came out and said he has health reasons then corruption came later by the way where

did he go your friend that means there is a process and the process the process starts with one lie that he's ill and

then the next lie is he's corrupt he may be ill you never know I mean he's probably ill after he's been in a

Chinese prison may be ill now you never know but at least gong lost his job

because of his corruption last question that's the point where is he he's somewhere in China you will never see

him he is among the 1.4 billion people no it's not just him there's many other people who have disappeared the previous

defense minister disappeared the ministry of industry and Technology disappeared the former Interpol president disappeared in China you just

disappear if they don't like you that's the rule of law in China I'm so happy they disappear because if they keep

doing their job they will bring greater dis be careful what you wish for cuz everyone's watching this show and if you

get something wrong tonight maybe you disappear if I is a beer I hope you will bail me

out I'd have to find you first and China is apparently a big country um I want to bring in uh Steven Chan professor at the

University of London's School of Oriental African studies um Stephen XI jinping's policies his Crackdown on

dissident I mean China was never a democracy other presidents were also dictatorial but can we agree that

xinping is on a different level when it comes to repression at home the consolidation of power I assume you disagree with Victor's description of

him as part of a I don't know four-wheel car all driving in the same Direction Happily he certainly Consolidated his

power he is a very very strong president and I think that the real test of all of this is how China has treated Hong Kong

with the increasing clampdown on dissent and free expression of opinion when they

were meant to have a degree of freedom in a one country two system way of approaching life we can't see any

evidence of vibrant debate in China and I note that one of the great

disappointments of my life is when I read Chinese acad mic works everyone TOS a party line no one does independent

research to publish as it were anything critical of for instance not just Gan ping anything critical about Chinese

foreign policy or they might disappear they might not get promoted in any case rahan assat is a senior fellow at the

Atlantic Council international human rights law rahan in part one we' talked in depth about uh the repression against

the weers and your own personal situation in 2014 Xi Jinping privately called for an allout struggle quote

against terrorism and to show absolutely no mercy after a visit to shinjang how much do you believe Xi Jinping is

driving what's happening in Shin Jang how much do you think he's responsible for the repression in China well the

matter of the fact is that all of it happened under current Administration right so many scholars are attributing

to him it happened under his Reign he's the one who said absolutely no mercy um

stamping out roots and branches of the ERS breaking out their connection and these are the policies implemented under

his leadership so it's very hard to separate XI Jin ping from the current

policy shinan Martin Jake's author of the best selling book when China rules the world you you heard Victor talk

about well we can't be a dictatorship because we're doing so well the economy is doing amazing we don't have Liz trust

mini budgets Etc but then you get into the debate about can dictatorship and growth coexist do you need to have

democracy to go alongside that and I think about the pandemic Martin and I think about China's reaction to the

pandemic is that where the dictatorship the lack of transparency the disappearances caught up with China

because of course there was a black hole in China in terms of China's censorship methods its Draconian policies the zero

Co policy the Crackdown which led some people say to over a million two million deaths we saw protests in buildings

people screaming was that a moment where China actually collided with reality and said this system it it can't survive

longterm well I beg to differ okay on the question of the pandemic because actually for two years uh uh uh 2020 and

2021 actually China did under the circumstances extremely well and Well

outperformed the West and the reasons for it are quite complicated uh you've got to take into a very different kind

of system now one of the problems with the discussion I think uh uh so far on

this question is that uh the country it sounds as if the country doesn't work if

you say dictator despot all these I but if and and you say not you

personally but and one says there's no discussion this is I think this is

absolutely untrue so what we're presenting here is not an accurate picture we've got it's not about

accurate picture it's about balance right so I I don't deny what you're saying but you're British you would

think it was a political earthquake if the foreign secretary and the defense secretary disappeared in the space of six months not arrested disappeared

surely yeah yeah and and there is something on look Ching gong was was a friend of mine as well and I don't know

what's happened to him and I think it is odd certainly to our eyes it's we weird that this can happen but uh but I think

that the thing is that we've got to try and get Beyond cardboard cutouts when

we're talking about China and understand how it really works okay um let's bring

in our audience who've been waiting here in London's Conway Hall I'm going to go to the yes the lady there on the fourth

row yes you my question is as a disident from Hong

Kong knowing that I cannot express freely in Hong Kong or in the UK without

risking other people in trouble I also know that you just now made claims about there's free speech in China and it's

possible to criticize the Chinese government just now again can you please demonstrate that free speech and tell us

what are siin Ping's two worst mistakes in the past five years great question if you can demonstrate to us that it's okay

to criticize shping the Chinese government and China or even just say she kind of resembles winning the Poo

will be good enough for me thank you Victor do you want to take that question well thank you I would say uh China need

to make more prompt uh take more prompt actions in dealing with the dramatic uh

aging population in China and the dramatic uh demographic decline do you think XI Jin Ping's to blame for not

being fast enough on Aging no I think uh the whole Chinese government including the Central Committee State council

local government need to take actions quickly to reverse that dramatic uh

aging population problem and demographic we're not going to get a criticism out of VI let's go back to the audience uh

let's go to the gentleman here in the tie yes you yeah Alex sorry Alex Vin some chatam house my my question is uh

debt so there's been very bad riots for example it's been in the news in Kenya

some of that debt that's causing the problem is owed to China so the question

is is how is China uh going to handle the increasing uh pressures for debt

cancellation uh at least 17 African countries are in particular distress

this year thank you I understand the Chinese debt in

these large scale uh connectivity projects is only a small portion of the

overall national debt because they own debt to the United States to Britain to

the international uh financing uh institutions Etc they not just own debt

to China but to many other countries that's the reality secondly there is

accusation about the death trap which is completely wrong and false because if you want to do connectivity project

major project finance things you need to have Equity as well as debt debt is an

indispensable part of the packaging okay let's go back to the audience um I Sate

this gentlemen the time then go to the back then we go to that gentleman there you next after this

one my name is Sonam frazzi I would like to ask you a question on

Tibet I was born in Tibet before the Chinese invasion of Tibet unfortunately

1.2 million Tibetans have died since and we have been made

refugees my question is Tibet after 74 years of Chinese rule is still under

lockdown no journalists no individual tourists no even Tibetans are not

allowed to see their families what is China afraid of to keep keep Tibet in

such a tight control and Tibetans is such a inhuman existence in our own

country sir ever since the UN Dynasty if not even earlier Tibet has been part of

China through different dynasties different historical period I can assure you during your lifetime

and mine Tibet will always be part of China why are you so insistent on ruling

places that don't want to be ruled by China no Tibet we've been through Tibet Taiwan they're not happy in

shinjang Tibet being part of China doesn't depend on whether you like it or not it's a mega trend of our time a mega

Trend and you need to accept that before you will feel free to go back to China visit Tibet

you sound like you're threatening the man no I'm not he said you have to accept that before you can go back he's

from that place you live in peace in Britain that's good but he's a refugee but if you want to go back to Tibet

acknowledge Tibet is part of China period And what if he doesn't he can't go back to his home you cannot go

back because China doesn't want to see anyone advocating for the independence

of Tibet why can't no way there will that will never happen Victor why can't

China rest on its own merits why the bullying and the threats we're going to

break you to pieces Taiwan you can't go back until you sign this document or that declar why the insecurity second

biggest economy in the world major power you sound so insecure China security

rests on the principle that there is only one China and Taiwan is part of China Tibet is part of China and Shing

Jang is part of China period And even if the people there don't want to be part of it you don't give a damn the majority

of the people live happily as Chinese ciens did you do a vote I will go with you to we're going to go to Tibet and

we're going to talk to all the Tibetan I can go to Tibet but the guy who's from there can't go there you sound ludicrous

when you say this stuff I'm sorry to say let us go back to audience gentle at the back and then this gentleman here my

name is a Isa alun I am a British Ur except

ran and my question for many in the U diaspora

we have not been allowed contact with our families at home visin

the UR autonomous region since 2017 when Chinese government started

detaining more than 3 million plus ERS into their Hightech surveillance

concentration camps my question to you sir what's the Chinese government trying

to hide from us second okay why can't we why can't we

not talk freely with our families okay another yet another weager so many

Wagers the same story the same questions I'm always very happy to see Wherever I Go a wegle person because I do consider

The Wiggles as my brothers and sisters on one condition part of me starting to feel sorry for your actual brothers and

sisters I'll be honest on one on one on one condition though Wiggles need to acknowledge that Shin Jang is part of

China that's a big precondition if you do not accept that precondition you are

not my brother or sister hold on so he that's fine you don't have to be brothers and sisters but can he not talk

to his family it depends on where your family is there are indeed a wo

separatists who want to promote separatism of Wiggle turn what about the

people who are not separ just disappear turn Shin Jang into East turkistan this will never happen listen to this call

your friends to stick to the one CH policy he just wants to talk on the phone to a family

member years I didn't speak to my mother I want to speak to my mother I am British I want to speak to my mother do

you understand literally support One China policy support being part of China

Victor period do you have no heart to see this man who can't speak to his 82y old mother separ I wish your mother is

here in this Hall talking to you and why you let her go maybe she could but then

on one condition in China Zero Tolerance of any separatist movement 82 year- old

woman is a threat to China what does that say about China I hope she's not a separatist but if she's a separatist she

will be dwelt with by law period Victor before we finish I have one question for

you we're in the UK we're in Conway Hall historic Free Speech Society could we do

a show like this could I interview you like this could rahan come be on a panel like this in Beijing in say the Beijing

International Convention Center can we do a show like this audience members freely ask questions you take questions

from everyone no one's vetted no one's threatened could we do this in Beijing medy if you ask me to line up all the

support you will do that really I can assure you that a show where every audience member gets to speak freely No

One turns up at their house afterwards for many European countries you do not need a visa to go to China pick up your

luggage buy a ticket ask I'm not asking foreigners Victor asking foreigners to come I'm saying could a Chinese audience

turn up and ask whatever they want criticize Xi Jinping criticize the government ask you questions talk about

weers could you do it in Beijing m in China don't criticize our president so we couldn't do this unless you have glad

you positive constructive proposal to make from criticism from the horse's

mouth don't criticize unless it's posi is not the only goal criticism with constructive purposes will be a better

free speech free speech is goal we cherish on this show I'm glad to have offered you a platform for free speech I

wish you could offer me one back Victor gal thank you for your time thank you to the audience in Conway Hall and thank

you to everyone at home for watching this episode of head 10

[Music] [Applause]