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1
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[Ian] He Just leapt
up and pushed him
2
00:00:04,107 --> 00:00:06,040
and the train came in.
3
00:00:06,075 --> 00:00:07,421
[tense music]
4
00:00:07,455 --> 00:00:10,251
[Rob] Keiran Patrick Kelly,
he'd been killing people
5
00:00:10,286 --> 00:00:12,736
by pushing them in
front of tube trains.
6
00:00:13,082 --> 00:00:15,025
[Kelly] And then you've
been captured for a while
7
00:00:15,049 --> 00:00:17,362
so what do you
think you do then.
8
00:00:17,396 --> 00:00:19,409
[Officer] You tell the
truth is what you're saying,
9
00:00:19,433 --> 00:00:21,504
you then tell the
truth about everything.
10
00:00:22,263 --> 00:00:24,127
[Ian] We were expected
to believe he got away
11
00:00:24,162 --> 00:00:27,234
with all these crimes because
no one noticed them happening.
12
00:00:28,097 --> 00:00:29,684
I just don't believe that.
13
00:00:29,719 --> 00:00:31,134
[Nicola] Psycho Kelly.
14
00:00:32,066 --> 00:00:33,561
They were very
vulnerable sleeping rough
15
00:00:33,585 --> 00:00:35,414
on the streets in London.
16
00:00:35,449 --> 00:00:36,771
[John] When they had
nothing left they had would
17
00:00:36,795 --> 00:00:38,728
go out and rob
others in the street.
18
00:00:39,487 --> 00:00:41,051
[Officer] You were
caught bang to rights.
19
00:00:41,075 --> 00:00:42,225
You know there is
no way out of that,
20
00:00:42,249 --> 00:00:43,526
you then decide to come clean
21
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:44,734
and tell us all the truth.
22
00:00:45,217 --> 00:00:47,116
No one had heard
of Kieran Kelly.
23
00:00:47,150 --> 00:00:48,600
[Nicola] I don't
think he's lying.
24
00:00:48,634 --> 00:00:51,292
I think he genuinely
believes that he's done this.
25
00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:54,468
[Ian] He was like a
stick of dynamite,
26
00:00:54,502 --> 00:00:57,091
once you lit the fuse
there was no stopping him.
27
00:00:57,126 --> 00:00:59,473
[dramatic music]
28
00:01:06,135 --> 00:01:08,620
[tense music]
29
00:01:15,144 --> 00:01:18,423
Was the underground once
stalked by a serial killer,
30
00:01:18,457 --> 00:01:21,805
who push people from tube
platforms to their deaths
31
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,428
and then got away with it?
32
00:01:23,462 --> 00:01:25,464
This former detective says yes.
33
00:01:25,740 --> 00:01:28,053
Astonishing claims
that you're making.
34
00:01:28,088 --> 00:01:30,573
Why do you think that
this is the case,
35
00:01:30,607 --> 00:01:33,265
that there was an actual serial
killer on the underground?
36
00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:34,094
[tense music]
37
00:01:34,128 --> 00:01:36,717
He just leapt up and pushed him.
38
00:01:36,751 --> 00:01:38,236
And the train came in.
39
00:01:39,375 --> 00:01:42,136
There's a pit, and he fell
into that and the train went
40
00:01:42,171 --> 00:01:43,448
over the top of him.
41
00:01:44,034 --> 00:01:46,485
[tense music]
42
00:01:57,703 --> 00:02:00,706
A man was arrested for
robbery on Clapham Common.
43
00:02:00,741 --> 00:02:02,467
He was taken to
the police station,
44
00:02:02,501 --> 00:02:04,124
detained in one of the cells.
45
00:02:05,815 --> 00:02:07,541
[Officer] And that's
the man you pushed?
46
00:02:07,575 --> 00:02:08,690
[Kelly] I didn't push him.
47
00:02:08,714 --> 00:02:10,060
- Well- - I gave him a wallop.
48
00:02:10,095 --> 00:02:11,338
[Officer] Why was that?
49
00:02:11,372 --> 00:02:12,798
[Kelly] And I caught him
on one of the shoulders.
50
00:02:12,822 --> 00:02:14,755
And he went, gone, and
I wasn't worried whether
51
00:02:14,789 --> 00:02:17,447
there was a train
coming in or not.
52
00:02:17,482 --> 00:02:20,519
Another one he'd thrown
in front of a tube.
53
00:02:20,554 --> 00:02:21,796
He'd admitted to the police
54
00:02:21,831 --> 00:02:25,179
that he actually killed all
these people on the Underground.
55
00:02:25,214 --> 00:02:27,216
He was like a stick of dynamite.
56
00:02:27,250 --> 00:02:29,390
Once you lit the
fuse, it would go,
57
00:02:29,425 --> 00:02:30,702
and there was no stopping it.
58
00:02:30,736 --> 00:02:33,394
[tense music]
59
00:02:36,017 --> 00:02:37,778
[Announcer] This
is an emergency.
60
00:02:37,812 --> 00:02:39,159
Please evacuate.
61
00:02:41,264 --> 00:02:43,508
[tense music]
62
00:02:43,542 --> 00:02:46,649
In the early summer of 2015,
63
00:02:46,683 --> 00:02:49,583
I was actually on a
job in London Bridge,
64
00:02:50,825 --> 00:02:55,485
and a colleague of mine in
Ireland just sent me a link
65
00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,144
to a newspaper article,
about an Irish guy,
66
00:02:59,179 --> 00:03:02,734
who, you know, according to
the report that he sent me,
67
00:03:02,768 --> 00:03:06,772
you know, had committed
multiple murders
68
00:03:06,807 --> 00:03:10,569
in London all the
way back to the 1950s
69
00:03:10,604 --> 00:03:12,744
and just said,
70
00:03:12,778 --> 00:03:14,573
you know, you've been
in London a few years,
71
00:03:14,608 --> 00:03:18,025
did you ever hear of this
guy pushing his victims onto
72
00:03:18,059 --> 00:03:21,408
in front of trains and
from the tube lines?
73
00:03:21,442 --> 00:03:23,306
[tense music]
74
00:03:23,341 --> 00:03:28,311
The initial headline was
a former cop who claimed
75
00:03:28,346 --> 00:03:29,623
that he was on the Case.
76
00:03:29,657 --> 00:03:34,800
He was revealing the crimes of
a then unknown serial killer.
77
00:03:34,835 --> 00:03:36,526
My name is Jeff Edwards.
78
00:03:36,561 --> 00:03:39,978
For 35 years I was a Fleet
Street crime reporter.
79
00:03:40,012 --> 00:03:44,258
I saw those 2015 headlines,
and I thought to myself
80
00:03:44,293 --> 00:03:48,573
at that time, I don't know
who this guy is: Keiran Kelly,
81
00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:51,265
who was being called
a serial killer,
82
00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:53,302
and he was called the
London Underground Killer
83
00:03:53,336 --> 00:03:55,718
because he allegedly
pushed a lot
84
00:03:55,752 --> 00:03:57,616
of people in front
of tube trains
85
00:03:57,651 --> 00:03:59,446
on the London
Underground Network.
86
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,793
[tense music]
87
00:04:01,827 --> 00:04:04,036
The police prepared a
report which was submitted
88
00:04:04,071 --> 00:04:06,142
to the Home Office
and to the Director
89
00:04:06,176 --> 00:04:07,557
of public prosecution to decide
90
00:04:07,592 --> 00:04:09,559
what charges were appropriate.
91
00:04:09,594 --> 00:04:11,630
As a result, the
Home Office got back
92
00:04:11,665 --> 00:04:13,701
and instructed the police
that the story was not
93
00:04:13,736 --> 00:04:16,359
to be released to the
Metropolitan Police Bureau
94
00:04:16,394 --> 00:04:18,292
or to the media direct.
95
00:04:18,327 --> 00:04:21,468
Society had to be
protected from this maniac
96
00:04:21,502 --> 00:04:25,161
or people just wouldn't use
the trains, the Underground
97
00:04:25,195 --> 00:04:27,197
if they knew the truth
of what was happening.
98
00:04:27,232 --> 00:04:29,037
People would simply say,
I'm not going on the tube.
99
00:04:29,061 --> 00:04:32,133
If, if there's a, you
know, if there's a lunatic
100
00:04:32,168 --> 00:04:34,343
at large, it's just
not conceivable.
101
00:04:34,377 --> 00:04:35,999
I think the fact is
there was a chance
102
00:04:36,034 --> 00:04:38,001
of mass hysteria there
was also a chance
103
00:04:38,036 --> 00:04:39,658
that people might
not go to work.
104
00:04:39,693 --> 00:04:41,493
We did contact the
British Transport Police,
105
00:04:41,522 --> 00:04:44,111
they said today that they
know about the claims.
106
00:04:44,145 --> 00:04:45,744
They they said it's
difficult to substantiate
107
00:04:45,768 --> 00:04:47,494
your claims because of
the passage of time.
108
00:04:47,528 --> 00:04:50,186
We're talking about something
that happened in the '70s.
109
00:04:51,014 --> 00:04:52,602
This was an exceptional story
110
00:04:52,637 --> 00:04:55,536
that I'd never heard anyone
share in all those years.
111
00:04:55,571 --> 00:04:59,160
So, I guess, you know,
the story arrived
112
00:04:59,195 --> 00:05:00,748
like a bolt out of
the blue like that,
113
00:05:00,783 --> 00:05:03,026
I guess you were just
kind of interested,
114
00:05:03,061 --> 00:05:05,270
intrigued, you know,
115
00:05:05,305 --> 00:05:07,652
why they never heard
of this story before.
116
00:05:07,686 --> 00:05:08,756
Was it true?
117
00:05:08,791 --> 00:05:12,415
Was this a serial killer
hiding in plain sight?
118
00:05:12,450 --> 00:05:15,418
[tense music]
119
00:05:22,632 --> 00:05:25,497
[train rumbling]
120
00:05:33,781 --> 00:05:34,851
[tense music]
121
00:05:34,886 --> 00:05:36,646
[Ian] I'm Detective
Inspector Ian Brown,
122
00:05:36,681 --> 00:05:38,165
at Clapham Police Station,
123
00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:40,512
today is the 17th
of August, 1983.
124
00:05:43,412 --> 00:05:47,416
I broke serial number
HGG702 on a new tape.
125
00:05:47,450 --> 00:05:53,076
The time is now 3:56, and
the machine will remain on.
126
00:05:53,422 --> 00:05:55,182
[tense music]
127
00:05:55,216 --> 00:05:58,358
The unique thing about
this case is the fact
128
00:05:58,392 --> 00:06:00,981
that there's actually
tapes of the interview
129
00:06:01,015 --> 00:06:04,329
still surviving
some 40 years later.
130
00:06:04,364 --> 00:06:07,228
There were originally three
tapes, but one of them
131
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,542
is the only one
that I've got left.
132
00:06:10,577 --> 00:06:13,165
The other two were lent
and never returned.
133
00:06:16,445 --> 00:06:17,825
My name is Ian Brown.
134
00:06:19,102 --> 00:06:22,312
I'm a retired detective
superintendent
135
00:06:22,347 --> 00:06:24,556
from the Metropolitan Police.
136
00:06:24,591 --> 00:06:26,351
I was detective inspector
137
00:06:26,386 --> 00:06:29,699
at Clapham Police
Station in South London.
138
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,428
A role that I certainly
wasn't happy with
139
00:06:34,463 --> 00:06:37,120
because I'd always
been active and now,
140
00:06:37,155 --> 00:06:42,091
I was sitting behind a
desk telling other people
141
00:06:42,125 --> 00:06:44,404
and checking on
other people's work.
142
00:06:45,508 --> 00:06:48,787
And then along
came Kieran Kelly.
143
00:06:50,306 --> 00:06:51,756
[tense music]
144
00:06:51,790 --> 00:06:53,551
How are you, Kelly?
- [Kelly] All right.
145
00:06:53,585 --> 00:06:55,587
- Do you want a cup of tea?
- Cup of tea please.
146
00:06:55,622 --> 00:06:59,557
Cup of tea, one sugar?
147
00:06:59,591 --> 00:07:01,351
One sugar, please.
148
00:07:03,146 --> 00:07:06,598
This, of course,
is the only picture
149
00:07:06,633 --> 00:07:08,807
of the infamous Kelly.
150
00:07:10,326 --> 00:07:14,295
And I don't think you
really need to be a genius
151
00:07:14,330 --> 00:07:17,782
to look in those
eyes and realise
152
00:07:17,816 --> 00:07:21,510
that there's not a lot there.
153
00:07:21,544 --> 00:07:22,476
He's somewhere else,
154
00:07:22,511 --> 00:07:25,099
or they're looking
straight through you.
155
00:07:26,273 --> 00:07:31,658
I mean, there's just
certainly a look of
156
00:07:31,692 --> 00:07:34,315
somebody that could
easily be a killer.
157
00:07:36,214 --> 00:07:37,353
Kieran, Patrick Kelly
158
00:07:37,387 --> 00:07:38,537
Never heard of Kieran Kelly,
159
00:07:38,561 --> 00:07:41,081
so never knew a word
about him growing up.
160
00:07:41,115 --> 00:07:42,738
He's not somebody I
knew about at all.
161
00:07:42,772 --> 00:07:44,612
[Ian] What I wanted to do
was go through a few things
162
00:07:44,636 --> 00:07:45,603
with you again.
163
00:07:45,637 --> 00:07:47,777
Because what we're both
after is the truth.
164
00:07:47,812 --> 00:07:50,021
You got the truth as
far as I'm concerned.
165
00:07:50,055 --> 00:07:53,024
Psycho Kelly or Mad Kelly.
166
00:07:53,058 --> 00:07:53,749
A couple of years.
167
00:07:53,783 --> 00:07:56,130
Like I heard, heard about,
168
00:07:56,165 --> 00:07:58,339
something appeared in
the papers or something.
169
00:07:58,788 --> 00:08:01,481
That was the first
I heard of him.
170
00:08:02,378 --> 00:08:05,519
This is the most bizarre
story I've ever heard
171
00:08:05,554 --> 00:08:07,107
in my career.
172
00:08:07,383 --> 00:08:10,766
Do you mind if we go through
it just a few points again?
173
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,215
- Ask the points.
- Okay.
174
00:08:12,250 --> 00:08:13,596
Fair enough.
175
00:08:14,632 --> 00:08:17,531
And hopefully this will be
the last time we speak to you.
176
00:08:17,566 --> 00:08:20,154
A lot of what Kelly is alleged
177
00:08:20,189 --> 00:08:23,019
to have done happens
down the tube station.
178
00:08:23,054 --> 00:08:28,715
Well, if you're homeless
and a drunk, alcoholic.
179
00:08:31,511 --> 00:08:36,550
It's raining, it's cold,
where are you going to drink?
180
00:08:37,517 --> 00:08:39,588
When he was apparently
murdering people,
181
00:08:39,622 --> 00:08:43,488
this was in the period,
sort of in the early 1980s
182
00:08:43,523 --> 00:08:44,972
when I was at my, you know,
183
00:08:45,007 --> 00:08:48,113
in the heyday of my
career, in fact, 1983,
184
00:08:48,148 --> 00:08:51,323
I was the crime reporter
on the News of the World.
185
00:08:52,186 --> 00:08:54,534
And I thought, if
this is all true,
186
00:08:54,568 --> 00:08:56,812
how come I don't
remember this chap
187
00:08:59,608 --> 00:09:01,161
He was taken out of the cell,
188
00:09:01,195 --> 00:09:03,232
he was loaded with
testosterone and adrenaline,
189
00:09:03,266 --> 00:09:06,338
he was really fired up
he started unloading.
190
00:09:06,373 --> 00:09:08,109
[Kelly] You put yourself
in my shoes, right?
191
00:09:08,133 --> 00:09:09,065
[Ian] Yeah.
192
00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:11,343
[Kelly] You go and
kill a geezer, right?
193
00:09:11,378 --> 00:09:12,655
And years go by.
194
00:09:12,690 --> 00:09:14,519
Jumps and you do another few.
195
00:09:14,554 --> 00:09:15,347
Right.
196
00:09:15,382 --> 00:09:16,625
And you're not captured.
197
00:09:16,659 --> 00:09:17,764
Right?
198
00:09:17,798 --> 00:09:20,180
And then you're
captured for one.
199
00:09:20,214 --> 00:09:21,043
So what do you do?
200
00:09:21,077 --> 00:09:21,699
Think.
201
00:09:21,733 --> 00:09:22,838
What do you do then?
202
00:09:22,872 --> 00:09:23,735
[Ian] You tell the truth,
is what you're saying.
203
00:09:23,770 --> 00:09:24,943
[Kelly] That's it.
204
00:09:24,978 --> 00:09:27,187
[Ian] You then tell the
truth about everything.
205
00:09:28,188 --> 00:09:29,534
[tense music]
206
00:09:29,569 --> 00:09:32,330
Kieran Kelly was
essentially, you know,
207
00:09:32,364 --> 00:09:35,057
in part pushing his
victims on the tube.
208
00:09:35,091 --> 00:09:37,680
I think in the
beginning it was north
209
00:09:37,715 --> 00:09:41,304
of a dozen murders that Kieran
Kelly was being, you know,
210
00:09:41,339 --> 00:09:43,375
then reported to have committed.
211
00:09:43,410 --> 00:09:44,618
Who were these victims?
212
00:09:44,653 --> 00:09:46,447
Who was Kieran Kelly?
213
00:09:46,482 --> 00:09:48,588
What can we find out?
214
00:09:48,622 --> 00:09:51,004
And I guess, I suppose
like any story,
215
00:09:51,038 --> 00:09:53,593
you begin by asking
questions and trying
216
00:09:53,627 --> 00:09:56,009
to find the people
who might have answers
217
00:09:56,043 --> 00:09:57,389
to those questions.
218
00:09:59,357 --> 00:10:02,636
There were so many stories
that were incapable
219
00:10:02,671 --> 00:10:06,157
of being substantiated,
and yet there were
220
00:10:06,191 --> 00:10:11,265
so many stories that were
so accurate, but no proof.
221
00:10:12,577 --> 00:10:16,167
The real reason I think
that he never, ever emerged,
222
00:10:16,201 --> 00:10:20,585
you know, until almost 20
years after he was, you know,
223
00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:24,693
at his most active
apparently, is because,
224
00:10:24,727 --> 00:10:27,212
I think there's real
doubts about, you know,
225
00:10:27,247 --> 00:10:30,112
how much of a serial
killer he really was.
226
00:10:30,146 --> 00:10:32,666
It was really difficult
to find people
227
00:10:32,701 --> 00:10:37,222
who knew Kieran Kelly or
were familiar with the story.
228
00:10:37,257 --> 00:10:39,742
[tense music]
229
00:10:42,227 --> 00:10:46,991
I mean Kelly's life at
times was half normal.
230
00:10:47,025 --> 00:10:51,478
Two children, a wife, looking
after another five kids.
231
00:10:51,512 --> 00:10:55,275
He would get day's work
as a building labourer,
232
00:10:55,309 --> 00:10:58,209
and apparently, I'm
told he was very,
233
00:10:58,243 --> 00:11:00,107
very good when he was sober.
234
00:11:00,729 --> 00:11:02,696
But the minute he
got a drink on him,
235
00:11:02,731 --> 00:11:07,045
he changed personality
and completely.
236
00:11:09,013 --> 00:11:11,118
I know he worked
for a few builders,
237
00:11:12,119 --> 00:11:13,983
but only on a daily basis
238
00:11:14,018 --> 00:11:17,711
and certainly not for
more than a couple of days
239
00:11:17,746 --> 00:11:20,231
before he went
back on the booze.
240
00:11:20,265 --> 00:11:24,304
And then he basically
stopped working
241
00:11:24,338 --> 00:11:28,204
and took to the
road as they say.
242
00:11:28,239 --> 00:11:30,690
There's no record of him
ever having worked again.
243
00:11:30,724 --> 00:11:36,350
He just purely led that
life of a petty thief.
244
00:11:37,144 --> 00:11:38,594
[dramatic music]
245
00:11:38,628 --> 00:11:40,216
Come clean and tell
us all the truth.
246
00:11:40,251 --> 00:11:41,424
[Kelly] Yeah.
247
00:11:41,459 --> 00:11:43,254
- And that is right, is it?
- That's right.
248
00:11:43,288 --> 00:11:44,738
And that's what I've done.
249
00:11:44,773 --> 00:11:48,466
It wasn't frustrating
because it was something
250
00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:50,779
that I'd never
experienced before.
251
00:11:50,813 --> 00:11:54,092
And in actual fact, I
most probably enjoyed it
252
00:11:54,783 --> 00:11:59,097
because it became a game
of who's telling the truth
253
00:11:59,132 --> 00:12:02,169
and who can get the truth.
254
00:12:02,204 --> 00:12:06,242
A cat and mouse game more
than anything else, really.
255
00:12:09,073 --> 00:12:10,660
[recorder clicking]
256
00:12:11,489 --> 00:12:14,319
[siren wailing]
257
00:12:14,354 --> 00:12:17,150
[tense music]
258
00:12:17,184 --> 00:12:20,636
We're stood in Clapham
common in southwest London.
259
00:12:21,706 --> 00:12:24,398
The commons today, like
many commons in London,
260
00:12:24,433 --> 00:12:28,782
are used, I guess as
recreational spaces for sports,
261
00:12:28,817 --> 00:12:31,509
for picnicking
families, whatever.
262
00:12:31,543 --> 00:12:34,650
But back during Kieran
Kelly's time in the 1970s
263
00:12:34,684 --> 00:12:37,618
and early 1980s, the
commons were places
264
00:12:37,653 --> 00:12:40,000
that street drinkers
like Kieran Kelly
265
00:12:40,035 --> 00:12:44,591
and his cohorts would retreat
into to feed their habits.
266
00:12:45,661 --> 00:12:48,319
[tense music]
267
00:12:52,806 --> 00:12:54,014
My name's Andy Baker.
268
00:12:54,049 --> 00:12:56,603
I was a detective sergeant
at Clapham Police Station
269
00:12:56,637 --> 00:13:00,434
from 1981 to 1984, and
I worked with Ian Brown,
270
00:13:00,469 --> 00:13:02,333
who was a detective
inspector there.
271
00:13:02,367 --> 00:13:04,645
The CID office at
Clapham dealt with
272
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,028
about 15 burglaries a
day, every day at Clapham.
273
00:13:08,063 --> 00:13:09,305
Two or three robberies.
274
00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:13,965
Nothing really unusual occurred
two or three murders a year,
275
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,002
some domestic,
some on the street,
276
00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:20,316
but nothing more than
that back in 1983.
277
00:13:20,351 --> 00:13:23,009
[tense music]
278
00:13:24,665 --> 00:13:26,736
Members of the public had long,
279
00:13:26,771 --> 00:13:31,224
the parks had long ago ceased
to be places of recreation.
280
00:13:31,258 --> 00:13:34,227
The public didn't go there
anymore for relaxation.
281
00:13:35,607 --> 00:13:41,607
You had to be living in 1983
to understand this community
282
00:13:41,751 --> 00:13:45,755
of misfits of people
who were all alcoholics
283
00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:51,554
and wanted to live on the streets
or they didn't want homes.
284
00:13:52,590 --> 00:13:55,144
Clapham, Balham,
Tooting, Kennington,
285
00:13:55,179 --> 00:13:58,285
all that sort of South
London area was their home.
286
00:13:59,390 --> 00:14:00,598
That was their home.
287
00:14:03,532 --> 00:14:05,120
[dramatic music]
288
00:14:05,154 --> 00:14:08,986
I am Benjamin, former
homeless and yeah,
289
00:14:09,020 --> 00:14:10,780
a former addict.
290
00:14:13,714 --> 00:14:18,167
I grew up around this area,
it was an environment I knew
291
00:14:18,202 --> 00:14:19,997
and Clapham Common,
292
00:14:20,031 --> 00:14:21,688
it's not a park,
it's common land,
293
00:14:21,722 --> 00:14:25,381
so you can get away with
sleeping rough there.
294
00:14:25,416 --> 00:14:27,763
So I started sleeping
rough on Clapham Common.
295
00:14:29,247 --> 00:14:30,800
It's easy to tell
a homeless person
296
00:14:30,835 --> 00:14:33,217
'cause they've got
the fullish rucksack,
297
00:14:33,251 --> 00:14:36,323
they've got their whole life
in the rucksack you know,
298
00:14:36,358 --> 00:14:38,118
and that's how you live.
299
00:14:38,153 --> 00:14:40,672
You live in a bag
and that's your life.
300
00:14:43,468 --> 00:14:46,299
[dramatic music]
301
00:14:50,130 --> 00:14:52,408
I'm Dr. Nicola Davies.
302
00:14:52,443 --> 00:14:53,962
I'm a behavioural scientist
303
00:14:53,996 --> 00:14:57,137
with a special interest
in criminal behaviour.
304
00:14:57,172 --> 00:14:59,415
I think you can tell a
lot about human nature
305
00:14:59,450 --> 00:15:02,211
from analysing the extreme ends.
306
00:15:03,799 --> 00:15:07,354
Homelessness is a
whole new subculture.
307
00:15:07,389 --> 00:15:11,393
It's kind of under the legal
radar, under the moral radar,
308
00:15:11,427 --> 00:15:14,810
it's a totally
different environment.
309
00:15:14,844 --> 00:15:17,468
Clapham had its fair
share of homeless people,
310
00:15:17,502 --> 00:15:21,575
street drinkers, they would
drink in church yards,
311
00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:24,233
on the Common, on park benches.
312
00:15:24,268 --> 00:15:26,511
The street drinkers,
considered their park bench,
313
00:15:26,546 --> 00:15:28,065
their property and
they'd protect it,
314
00:15:28,099 --> 00:15:29,549
they would fight for it as well.
315
00:15:30,722 --> 00:15:34,519
Wino jungle was a place
where chronic alcoholics used
316
00:15:34,554 --> 00:15:38,282
to be congregate in the parks.
317
00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:41,181
These parks were
small little parks.
318
00:15:41,216 --> 00:15:45,737
They were stretched from
John O'Groats to Land's End,
319
00:15:46,428 --> 00:15:50,984
and the police used to pen
the winos in these parks.
320
00:15:51,019 --> 00:15:52,099
They all knew each other,
321
00:15:52,123 --> 00:15:55,092
but they didn't
know their names.
322
00:15:55,126 --> 00:15:57,128
There was no need
to know their names.
323
00:15:57,163 --> 00:16:00,649
The only thing they needed to
know was did he have a drink?
324
00:16:00,683 --> 00:16:03,341
[tense music]
325
00:16:04,549 --> 00:16:10,141
I'm John Healy, I started to
drink when I was about 15.
326
00:16:10,659 --> 00:16:13,696
Of course, it's nothing
now, but them times.
327
00:16:13,731 --> 00:16:16,630
And it went from bad to
worse, you know, the drink.
328
00:16:16,665 --> 00:16:19,116
But I was boxing
at the same time.
329
00:16:19,150 --> 00:16:24,328
I became a junior ABA champion.
330
00:16:24,362 --> 00:16:27,745
I was frequently turning up
drunk for a training session.
331
00:16:29,402 --> 00:16:35,402
So I sold all my cups and
medals and that for drink.
332
00:16:35,718 --> 00:16:39,067
And just ended
up, on the street.
333
00:16:40,551 --> 00:16:42,484
I started drinking worse.
334
00:16:42,518 --> 00:16:47,213
And then I ended up
in the winos jungles.
335
00:16:49,146 --> 00:16:52,218
We weren't able to do
anything except drink
336
00:16:52,252 --> 00:16:54,668
or fight for the drink.
337
00:16:54,703 --> 00:16:58,017
And the drink was cheap.
338
00:16:58,051 --> 00:17:01,261
South African red,
it was the dregs
339
00:17:01,296 --> 00:17:02,711
of South African wine.
340
00:17:04,161 --> 00:17:05,990
Well no one cared about winos.
341
00:17:06,025 --> 00:17:08,130
I mean, why would
they care about winos?
342
00:17:08,165 --> 00:17:10,132
They were sort of the
scum of the earth.
343
00:17:10,167 --> 00:17:12,617
And that was it.
344
00:17:12,652 --> 00:17:14,343
No one cared about them.
345
00:17:14,378 --> 00:17:16,242
I mean, why should
they care about them?
346
00:17:16,276 --> 00:17:17,760
Who'd care about winos?
347
00:17:18,761 --> 00:17:20,280
[dramatic music]
348
00:17:20,315 --> 00:17:22,489
An awful lot of them
were from Ireland
349
00:17:22,524 --> 00:17:27,322
because it was at a time when
the Irish immigrant society
350
00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:29,634
was very, very big
coming into England
351
00:17:29,669 --> 00:17:34,467
and a lot of them couldn't find
jobs and resorted to drink.
352
00:17:38,091 --> 00:17:40,162
Most of the wealth of
this country is in London.
353
00:17:40,197 --> 00:17:42,578
Most of the opportunities
is in London.
354
00:17:42,613 --> 00:17:47,687
And London's always been
cosmopolitan, always.
355
00:17:49,551 --> 00:17:53,693
And not just in wealth,
the different blue-collar,
356
00:17:53,727 --> 00:17:57,283
rich, working class, homeless,
357
00:17:57,317 --> 00:17:59,216
there's always been
these subcultures.
358
00:17:59,250 --> 00:18:02,495
So, it's just which
one you fall in.
359
00:18:04,635 --> 00:18:07,189
I am Pauline McKeown,
Chief Executive
360
00:18:07,224 --> 00:18:09,467
of Coolmine
Therapeutic Community,
361
00:18:09,502 --> 00:18:12,505
and that's a national drug
and alcohol treatment centre
362
00:18:12,539 --> 00:18:13,747
here in Ireland.
363
00:18:13,782 --> 00:18:18,166
As I worked with the homeless
Irish community in London,
364
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:24,033
I quite quickly realised
that whilst there was alcohol
365
00:18:24,068 --> 00:18:28,555
and other drugs sometimes
featuring for people,
366
00:18:28,590 --> 00:18:31,524
everyone had a backstory.
367
00:18:31,558 --> 00:18:33,319
They'd left Ireland at a time
368
00:18:33,353 --> 00:18:35,804
where there wasn't
many opportunities.
369
00:18:35,838 --> 00:18:38,531
There wasn't, work a plentiful.
370
00:18:38,565 --> 00:18:43,087
So going over to London or
to Manchester or anywhere,
371
00:18:43,122 --> 00:18:47,264
they very much were hoping
for a better future.
372
00:18:47,298 --> 00:18:50,405
But when they arrived,
they realised that they had
373
00:18:50,439 --> 00:18:51,268
to make their own way.
374
00:18:51,302 --> 00:18:52,269
And there was loneliness.
375
00:18:52,303 --> 00:18:54,271
And there was
isolation featuring.
376
00:18:56,549 --> 00:19:00,553
And for a crutch and to
enable them to participate
377
00:19:00,587 --> 00:19:05,074
in any way in daily
life, drinking, alcohol,
378
00:19:05,109 --> 00:19:08,457
going to the pub, then onto
street drinking became a very,
379
00:19:08,492 --> 00:19:10,804
very natural way of life.
380
00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:12,565
They were very
vulnerable, sleeping rough
381
00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:14,222
on the streets in London.
382
00:19:14,498 --> 00:19:17,190
[tense music]
383
00:19:17,225 --> 00:19:19,779
It's impossible to
say for certain,
384
00:19:19,813 --> 00:19:22,299
to kind of measure
Kieran Kelly's decline
385
00:19:22,333 --> 00:19:25,233
as to kind of why he
ended up in this space.
386
00:19:25,267 --> 00:19:27,442
But you know, the
considered context
387
00:19:27,476 --> 00:19:31,273
I guess would've
been his alcoholism.
388
00:19:31,308 --> 00:19:35,104
He was obviously a heavy
drinker and, you know,
389
00:19:35,139 --> 00:19:38,038
by his own admission
alcohol was something
390
00:19:38,073 --> 00:19:41,283
that drove him and was an
addiction that needed to be met.
391
00:19:43,216 --> 00:19:47,047
When you are on the
street with addiction,
392
00:19:47,082 --> 00:19:49,222
your mindset is just set.
393
00:19:49,257 --> 00:19:52,329
The most important
thing is your addiction.
394
00:19:52,363 --> 00:19:54,607
It becomes the most
important thing
395
00:19:54,641 --> 00:19:57,230
because it's the
tool that you use
396
00:19:57,265 --> 00:20:00,785
to escape the immediate
environment that you're in now.
397
00:20:00,820 --> 00:20:03,478
And your life quickly
comes down to just
398
00:20:03,512 --> 00:20:06,170
living a day-to-day
existence anyway.
399
00:20:07,792 --> 00:20:10,554
Alcohol really is a
blessing and a curse
400
00:20:10,588 --> 00:20:14,661
to homeless people, and it
definitely was for Kelly.
401
00:20:14,696 --> 00:20:18,182
Alcohol can become a
bit of a barter system.
402
00:20:18,217 --> 00:20:23,256
It can propel you to the
top of the social hierarchy.
403
00:20:23,291 --> 00:20:26,708
It might allow you to enter
a particular social circle,
404
00:20:26,742 --> 00:20:29,573
and if you can supply
alcohol, you're going
405
00:20:29,607 --> 00:20:31,437
to be the favoured one as well,
406
00:20:32,438 --> 00:20:35,648
I mean, the drinks and
food would be shoplifted.
407
00:20:35,682 --> 00:20:39,479
And their method is that if
they go in absolutely drunk
408
00:20:39,514 --> 00:20:43,034
and collapse on a few
tins or something,
409
00:20:43,069 --> 00:20:46,590
they can slip a few in their
pocket and walk out again.
410
00:20:47,522 --> 00:20:51,042
But of course, they
always managed to collapse
411
00:20:51,077 --> 00:20:53,769
and fall on bottles of booze.
412
00:20:53,804 --> 00:20:56,013
It was very
difficult to shoplift
413
00:20:56,047 --> 00:20:58,429
'cause you smell and stank.
414
00:20:58,464 --> 00:21:00,811
People would smell you
if they couldn't see you.
415
00:21:01,605 --> 00:21:05,160
And so a lot of violence,
416
00:21:05,194 --> 00:21:08,681
then the winos were
termed predate felons,
417
00:21:08,715 --> 00:21:10,786
predatory felons.
418
00:21:10,821 --> 00:21:12,201
And because of the way
419
00:21:12,236 --> 00:21:15,308
they would attack
people for money.
420
00:21:15,343 --> 00:21:18,069
That's why the
violence was so bad.
421
00:21:18,104 --> 00:21:20,555
[tense music]
422
00:21:24,524 --> 00:21:28,321
It was just another day at
Clapham or another night
423
00:21:28,356 --> 00:21:31,704
when two young police
officers were patrolling
424
00:21:31,738 --> 00:21:35,639
and found a well-known
man of the night,
425
00:21:35,673 --> 00:21:37,641
a guy called William Boyd.
426
00:21:37,675 --> 00:21:41,300
He was laying on a bench in
the edge of Clapham Common,
427
00:21:42,266 --> 00:21:44,337
and these two young
officers came across him
428
00:21:44,372 --> 00:21:46,201
and for some unknown reason,
429
00:21:46,235 --> 00:21:48,307
decided that they
would arrest him.
430
00:21:49,238 --> 00:21:52,069
William Boyd had
been picked up for,
431
00:21:52,103 --> 00:21:55,279
I guess being homeless and
just, I guess, you know,
432
00:21:55,314 --> 00:21:56,245
being on the streets
433
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,765
or because somebody
complained about him.
434
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,181
I guess William Boyd had,
essentially, been brought in
435
00:22:01,216 --> 00:22:04,253
to Clapham Common Police
Station to sleep off the drink.
436
00:22:05,047 --> 00:22:07,049
If they fancied it, they'd
nick you for nothing.
437
00:22:07,084 --> 00:22:08,223
Just suss.
438
00:22:08,257 --> 00:22:11,330
[tense music]
439
00:22:15,092 --> 00:22:15,955
In that society.
440
00:22:15,989 --> 00:22:18,440
They were quite
happy to be arrested.
441
00:22:18,475 --> 00:22:20,131
They weren't sleeping outside.
442
00:22:20,166 --> 00:22:24,584
They have a cell, even if
it was a floor or a mattress
443
00:22:24,619 --> 00:22:27,794
to sleep on, perhaps a
blanket to keep them warm.
444
00:22:27,829 --> 00:22:29,693
This was luxury.
445
00:22:29,727 --> 00:22:32,005
So William Boyd was quite happy.
446
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,354
He went to the cell
and layed on the floor
447
00:22:35,388 --> 00:22:36,665
and started snoring.
448
00:22:37,563 --> 00:22:40,531
He would be there
until he'd sobered up,
449
00:22:40,566 --> 00:22:43,016
which might be
tomorrow afternoon.
450
00:22:43,810 --> 00:22:45,812
[door clicking]
451
00:22:49,644 --> 00:22:52,301
[tense music]
452
00:22:54,062 --> 00:22:56,133
The day after William Boyd
453
00:22:56,167 --> 00:22:58,653
was picked up, two
homeless street drinkers,
454
00:22:58,687 --> 00:23:02,208
Kieran Kelly and Paul
McManus approached a man
455
00:23:02,242 --> 00:23:05,556
who was sitting on a bench
here in Clapham Common
456
00:23:05,591 --> 00:23:08,456
and mugged him,
took a ring off him,
457
00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:10,527
took some money off him.
458
00:23:10,561 --> 00:23:12,425
[tense music]
459
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:16,705
Luckily, there were local
police walking the streets
460
00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:21,054
and they arrested both
Kelly and McManus.
461
00:23:21,089 --> 00:23:23,402
They took them to
Clapham police station,
462
00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:28,199
so there were only three cells
at Clapham police station,
463
00:23:29,166 --> 00:23:32,445
and he decided that
it would be wise
464
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,379
to put all three
together in the cell.
465
00:23:36,553 --> 00:23:39,418
It would save contaminating
the other two cells.
466
00:23:40,246 --> 00:23:43,283
And so at two o'clock
in the afternoon,
467
00:23:43,318 --> 00:23:44,561
that's exactly what happened.
468
00:23:44,595 --> 00:23:47,598
The three of them
were put in the cells.
469
00:23:47,633 --> 00:23:50,290
[tense music]
470
00:23:59,092 --> 00:24:02,337
At about five o'clock, I
decided it was time to go.
471
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,099
I walked out, and as
I got into the yard,
472
00:24:06,134 --> 00:24:09,655
a young constable ran out and
shouted, "Governor, Governor,
473
00:24:09,689 --> 00:24:11,760
quick down the cell."
474
00:24:11,795 --> 00:24:15,454
McManus was banging on the
door, screaming to get out.
475
00:24:15,488 --> 00:24:17,041
[door banging]
476
00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:20,355
So I turned and went down
the cell, opened the door,
477
00:24:20,389 --> 00:24:26,389
and there before me was William
Boyd laying on the floor,
478
00:24:27,017 --> 00:24:30,607
prone on his back and
a young police sergeant
479
00:24:30,641 --> 00:24:32,332
giving him the kiss of life.
480
00:24:32,712 --> 00:24:34,024
[tense music]
481
00:24:34,058 --> 00:24:36,716
Round his neck was
a pair of socks
482
00:24:36,751 --> 00:24:38,477
that had been knotted together,
483
00:24:39,374 --> 00:24:40,996
and he'd just been strangled.
484
00:24:41,031 --> 00:24:44,552
I looked round and sitting in
the corner was Kieran Kelly,
485
00:24:46,346 --> 00:24:49,695
sitting on the floor
cross-legged with no socks.
486
00:24:50,730 --> 00:24:55,494
Now we now have a situation
where we have a murder
487
00:24:55,528 --> 00:24:57,772
in the cells at
Clapham Police Station.
488
00:24:58,635 --> 00:25:01,292
[tense music]
489
00:25:05,262 --> 00:25:08,714
Now I haven't heard of
Kieran Kelly until now.
490
00:25:10,405 --> 00:25:12,476
But unfortunately, that's
the way of the world
491
00:25:12,511 --> 00:25:16,066
and that's been going
on since before society
492
00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:17,585
that we know anyway.
493
00:25:17,619 --> 00:25:20,415
There's good and bad
people in the world.
494
00:25:20,449 --> 00:25:22,969
If we want to do something,
495
00:25:23,004 --> 00:25:25,627
well we can be really
good at that want.
496
00:25:25,662 --> 00:25:28,285
It's just that want,
knowing what you want.
497
00:25:29,148 --> 00:25:30,770
Life is choice.
498
00:25:30,805 --> 00:25:34,636
You could choose to be good
or you can choose to be bad.
499
00:25:36,535 --> 00:25:38,778
[tense music]
500
00:25:38,813 --> 00:25:41,056
Keiran?
501
00:25:41,091 --> 00:25:42,506
We didn't know
much about Kieran.
502
00:25:42,541 --> 00:25:43,231
He lived in London.
503
00:25:43,265 --> 00:25:45,405
I met this girl across the road.
504
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,442
She knew him in London and,
505
00:25:48,685 --> 00:25:51,101
didn't have much to
say about him, really.
506
00:25:51,135 --> 00:25:54,207
[soft violin music]
507
00:26:07,220 --> 00:26:11,086
Kieran Kelly was born in 1930.
508
00:26:11,121 --> 00:26:13,572
He was born in a small
village, in the Midlands
509
00:26:13,606 --> 00:26:15,401
in Ireland called Rathdowney.
510
00:26:16,195 --> 00:26:18,991
[gentle orchestral music]
511
00:26:19,025 --> 00:26:22,166
My name is Michael Ryan We're
in the town of Rathdowney,
512
00:26:22,201 --> 00:26:25,618
a small town in Southwest
Laois Midlands of Ireland.
513
00:26:29,311 --> 00:26:32,038
It's a wonderful town,
wonderful people,
514
00:26:34,593 --> 00:26:37,147
growing up in
Rathdowney was lovely.
515
00:26:37,181 --> 00:26:41,427
We had our primary
school, it was very,
516
00:26:41,461 --> 00:26:46,397
you know, there was no social
distinction whether you were,
517
00:26:47,709 --> 00:26:51,195
any way well healed or
on the poverty line.
518
00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:52,645
[gentle orchestral music]
519
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,270
Kieran Kelly's father owned
a small shop in Rathdowney.
520
00:26:57,305 --> 00:27:01,102
At another time, his father
was in the Irish Police Force.
521
00:27:01,136 --> 00:27:04,553
He had brothers and
sisters and yeah,
522
00:27:04,588 --> 00:27:08,040
I guess had an unremarkable
childhood, really.
523
00:27:08,074 --> 00:27:09,386
[gentle orchestral music]
524
00:27:09,420 --> 00:27:11,019
There's no date in
this old photograph,
525
00:27:11,043 --> 00:27:14,460
but it's about I'm guessing
1900, give or take.
526
00:27:14,494 --> 00:27:17,532
The men typical at
clothing, three-piece suits,
527
00:27:17,566 --> 00:27:19,776
caps, so I suppose his parents
528
00:27:19,810 --> 00:27:23,434
could well be standing there
if one thinks about it.
529
00:27:24,435 --> 00:27:28,060
[gentle orchestral music]
530
00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:30,234
The house I lived in,
531
00:27:30,269 --> 00:27:31,384
where I was reared to the house,
532
00:27:31,408 --> 00:27:33,617
who Mr. Kelly was
reared in as well.
533
00:27:34,445 --> 00:27:37,138
My family wouldn't really
have known him very well.
534
00:27:38,726 --> 00:27:40,659
There are Kellys
here around Kelly's
535
00:27:40,693 --> 00:27:43,316
down the road with no
relation to that at all no.
536
00:27:44,352 --> 00:27:46,388
Kelly is a common enough name.
537
00:27:46,423 --> 00:27:48,667
In fact, I think
it's maybe the second
538
00:27:48,701 --> 00:27:50,772
or third most common
name in Ireland.
539
00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:53,706
[clapboard clicking]
540
00:27:53,741 --> 00:27:55,535
My name is Mary Delaney.
541
00:27:57,365 --> 00:28:02,163
Well, I have lived in
Rathdowney 60 years now.
542
00:28:02,197 --> 00:28:04,348
You probably heard there was a
brewery here for a long time.
543
00:28:04,372 --> 00:28:06,167
A lot of people
were employed there.
544
00:28:06,201 --> 00:28:08,514
A lot of men were employed
in the brewery for years.
545
00:28:08,548 --> 00:28:12,242
My husband worked there
for, until they closed down.
546
00:28:13,450 --> 00:28:15,141
And that was really, oh yeah,
547
00:28:15,176 --> 00:28:17,661
there was a textile
factory up here as well.
548
00:28:17,696 --> 00:28:18,524
Yeah.
549
00:28:18,558 --> 00:28:21,147
It employed a lot
of people as well.
550
00:28:21,182 --> 00:28:25,324
And that was about all
there was here, and 17 pubs.
551
00:28:25,358 --> 00:28:26,049
- 17?
- Yes.
552
00:28:26,083 --> 00:28:28,637
It was 17 pubs here at one time.
553
00:28:28,672 --> 00:28:32,124
[soft violin music]
554
00:28:32,158 --> 00:28:34,747
We don't know much about
Kieran Kelly's childhood.
555
00:28:35,748 --> 00:28:37,301
We know from some sources
556
00:28:37,336 --> 00:28:40,511
that he was maybe a
little bit insecure.
557
00:28:40,546 --> 00:28:45,620
We know his father started
off as a policeman,
558
00:28:45,654 --> 00:28:47,656
to an insurance
broker, to a labourer.
559
00:28:47,691 --> 00:28:51,246
So, he somehow went
down the status.
560
00:28:52,144 --> 00:28:54,698
We don't know a lot, and we
usually do look at the childhood
561
00:28:54,733 --> 00:28:58,391
to understand how someone's
behaving as an adult.
562
00:28:58,426 --> 00:29:00,083
It doesn't give us
the entire answer
563
00:29:00,117 --> 00:29:03,155
'cause we're the product
of nature and nurture.
564
00:29:03,189 --> 00:29:05,640
But it does give
us some indicators.
565
00:29:07,193 --> 00:29:08,988
[soft music]
566
00:29:09,023 --> 00:29:12,681
He joined the Army at
18 and was out by 19.
567
00:29:12,716 --> 00:29:14,442
He got kicked out of the army.
568
00:29:16,030 --> 00:29:19,412
I guess Kieran Kelly only
really pops up in terms
569
00:29:19,447 --> 00:29:21,518
of official marking of his life
570
00:29:21,552 --> 00:29:25,764
in court records in the
early 1950s when he begins
571
00:29:25,798 --> 00:29:30,596
to be picked up for petty
crimes, stealing, theft,
572
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:34,462
housebreaking, public
order, that type of thing,
573
00:29:34,496 --> 00:29:39,225
and then comes to
England in the 1950s.
574
00:29:39,260 --> 00:29:43,195
[grand orchestral music]
575
00:29:43,229 --> 00:29:45,611
An awful lot of young
people, at that time
576
00:29:45,645 --> 00:29:46,715
who went over to England.
577
00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:48,338
An awful lot of
them stayed there
578
00:29:48,372 --> 00:29:50,616
for their, most
part of their lives.
579
00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:52,411
[dramatic music]
580
00:29:52,445 --> 00:29:57,623
Someone like Kieran Kelly
coming from Ireland to London,
581
00:29:57,657 --> 00:29:59,556
it would've been very
daunting for him.
582
00:29:59,590 --> 00:30:02,628
If you think of London,
just how busy the hustle
583
00:30:02,662 --> 00:30:05,044
and bustle of it
compared to Ireland.
584
00:30:05,079 --> 00:30:09,393
He's trying to find his place
and his place was London.
585
00:30:16,815 --> 00:30:21,785
[train horn blowing]
[soft music]
586
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:23,131
I'm Anna McGuire.
587
00:30:23,166 --> 00:30:26,065
I'm lecturer in public history
at University College London.
588
00:30:27,204 --> 00:30:29,620
So if you were arriving
into London on the train
589
00:30:29,655 --> 00:30:33,003
in the 1950s, you could've
encountered a city
590
00:30:33,038 --> 00:30:37,007
of contradictions
and kind of tensions.
591
00:30:37,042 --> 00:30:38,526
Bomb damage would
still be evident.
592
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,253
There'd be houses that
are crumbling around you,
593
00:30:41,287 --> 00:30:43,048
different parts of the
city that are still
594
00:30:43,082 --> 00:30:45,084
in that kind of
post-war recovery.
595
00:30:46,845 --> 00:30:49,986
I must say that most Irish
people did very well over here.
596
00:30:50,020 --> 00:30:51,021
Well, they did okay.
597
00:30:51,056 --> 00:30:52,678
They settled down, had families,
598
00:30:53,575 --> 00:30:55,208
but the ones we're
talking about are people
599
00:30:55,232 --> 00:30:57,510
who never get that opportunity.
600
00:31:00,203 --> 00:31:04,552
My name is Alex McDonald,
I'm the coordinator of the
601
00:31:04,586 --> 00:31:08,418
Aisling Return to Ireland
project, which works with
602
00:31:08,452 --> 00:31:11,421
homeless vulnerable Irish people
603
00:31:11,455 --> 00:31:14,596
in London who've lost
contact with their families
604
00:31:14,631 --> 00:31:17,254
and their homeland.
605
00:31:17,289 --> 00:31:19,325
[train clacking]
606
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,328
When they got there, that
work wasn't there for them,
607
00:31:22,363 --> 00:31:24,296
and they didn't have any money.
608
00:31:24,330 --> 00:31:26,401
So when you don't
have any income,
609
00:31:26,436 --> 00:31:28,162
your choices are pretty limited,
610
00:31:28,196 --> 00:31:29,749
your choices are pretty limited,
611
00:31:29,784 --> 00:31:32,166
and that would've led
to the rough sleeping
612
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,582
and the homelessness
on the streets as well.
613
00:31:35,790 --> 00:31:39,173
[wind whooshing]
614
00:31:39,207 --> 00:31:42,072
We see so many different
sides to Kieran Kelly,
615
00:31:42,107 --> 00:31:44,350
depending on who
you ask as well.
616
00:31:44,385 --> 00:31:45,282
What was he like?
617
00:31:45,317 --> 00:31:47,008
You're going to get
a different story
618
00:31:47,043 --> 00:31:51,979
from past employers,
family, children.
619
00:31:52,013 --> 00:31:56,362
Obviously, we know that
Kelly was a father.
620
00:31:56,397 --> 00:31:58,709
He was married for
a period of time,
621
00:31:58,744 --> 00:32:02,334
he was a hard worker and
he was also kind of popular
622
00:32:02,368 --> 00:32:06,303
with his workmates, but also
feared, gregarious, you know-
623
00:32:07,442 --> 00:32:09,789
So thinking particularly
about work on building sites
624
00:32:09,824 --> 00:32:14,415
in this period, high rates
of injury, really high risk.
625
00:32:14,449 --> 00:32:17,211
Being paid in cash, kind
of like danger money
626
00:32:17,245 --> 00:32:19,282
that they used to call it.
627
00:32:19,316 --> 00:32:21,594
That would be great
if you could get it.
628
00:32:21,629 --> 00:32:24,149
But knowing that you
have no backup plan
629
00:32:24,183 --> 00:32:26,323
if you get injured or
if something goes wrong.
630
00:32:26,358 --> 00:32:29,740
Working in the rain and
digging trenches in the rain
631
00:32:29,775 --> 00:32:33,537
and the rheumatism sets
in and they go straight
632
00:32:33,572 --> 00:32:36,126
in the pub when they
get off the lorry
633
00:32:36,161 --> 00:32:40,268
to dry out and 'cause
they've got nowhere
634
00:32:40,303 --> 00:32:44,169
to sleep and or if they've got
a room, it's got no heating.
635
00:32:45,135 --> 00:32:47,172
There was a thing
called the Lump,
636
00:32:47,206 --> 00:32:49,277
which meant you got paid cash,
637
00:32:50,106 --> 00:32:52,453
and typically you'd
get paid in the pub,
638
00:32:53,419 --> 00:32:54,420
there'd be a gang man.
639
00:32:54,455 --> 00:32:57,699
And he'd pay people in the pub
640
00:32:57,734 --> 00:33:01,013
and he'd have an arrangement
with the landlord
641
00:33:01,048 --> 00:33:04,465
of the pub that he'd
keep the lads in the pub
642
00:33:04,499 --> 00:33:06,605
as long as he could
before he paid them.
643
00:33:06,639 --> 00:33:10,367
So [laughing] by that time,
they'd run up a big tab.
644
00:33:11,230 --> 00:33:13,612
[all chattering]
[lively music]
645
00:33:13,646 --> 00:33:16,235
It was like a conspiracy
to keep people drinking.
646
00:33:17,547 --> 00:33:22,310
And you can see how sort of
casual life became for people.
647
00:33:23,415 --> 00:33:24,347
That kind of chimes
648
00:33:24,381 --> 00:33:26,314
with Kieran Kelly's
personal experience
649
00:33:26,349 --> 00:33:28,627
where he would've
worked in construction.
650
00:33:28,661 --> 00:33:32,631
He would've had, you know,
multiple addresses in London,
651
00:33:32,665 --> 00:33:37,222
you know, kind of a transient
lifestyle around South London.
652
00:33:37,256 --> 00:33:39,396
[tense music]
653
00:33:39,431 --> 00:33:43,159
The men from the second World
War, they were disturbed
654
00:33:43,193 --> 00:33:45,402
and they would rob
their own kind.
655
00:33:45,437 --> 00:33:47,277
And when they had nothing
left, they would go out
656
00:33:47,301 --> 00:33:49,165
and rob others in the street.
657
00:33:49,199 --> 00:33:51,236
So there was a lot
of mugging going on.
658
00:33:52,340 --> 00:33:53,790
That's the whole truth about it,
659
00:33:53,824 --> 00:33:56,103
because there was no other way.
660
00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:00,521
[tense music]
661
00:34:07,252 --> 00:34:10,289
Kieran Kelly had been brought
in for the theft of a ring,
662
00:34:11,359 --> 00:34:14,466
and now there's a body, a
dead body inside in the cells
663
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:15,708
in the police station.
664
00:34:16,813 --> 00:34:19,747
Ian Brown is thinking,
who is this guy
665
00:34:19,781 --> 00:34:21,680
that's just committed
this terrible,
666
00:34:21,714 --> 00:34:23,751
brutal murder
inside in the cells?
667
00:34:26,340 --> 00:34:29,412
Round his neck was
a pair of socks
668
00:34:29,446 --> 00:34:30,792
that had been knotted together,
669
00:34:31,759 --> 00:34:34,279
and he'd just been strangled.
670
00:34:35,314 --> 00:34:37,282
I looked round and
sitting in the corner
671
00:34:37,316 --> 00:34:42,390
was Kieran Kelly sitting
on the floor cross-legged
672
00:34:43,184 --> 00:34:44,220
with no socks.
673
00:34:45,428 --> 00:34:47,671
[dramatic music]
674
00:34:47,706 --> 00:34:51,744
Now, I'm not the best detective
that there's ever been,
675
00:34:51,779 --> 00:34:54,540
but I managed to
solve that crime.
676
00:34:57,785 --> 00:35:01,306
Kelly's moved to another
cell, the coroner is called,
677
00:35:01,340 --> 00:35:04,343
and Boyd is declared
dead at the scene.
678
00:35:06,034 --> 00:35:09,383
Kieran Kelly knew what
prison life was like.
679
00:35:09,417 --> 00:35:11,764
He was in and out of it
most of his adult life.
680
00:35:11,799 --> 00:35:15,665
And I suspect that by the
time we get to William Boyd
681
00:35:15,699 --> 00:35:17,770
and killing him in
that prison cell,
682
00:35:17,805 --> 00:35:20,635
[dramatic music]
683
00:35:20,670 --> 00:35:24,087
perhaps he had come to
the realisation that life
684
00:35:24,122 --> 00:35:28,160
might be better and easier
in prison with a roof
685
00:35:28,195 --> 00:35:30,473
over his head with
food, with a bed,
686
00:35:30,507 --> 00:35:33,476
because clearly he was going
to get caught for this one.
687
00:35:34,546 --> 00:35:37,307
[dramatic music continues]
688
00:35:37,342 --> 00:35:40,345
I get Kelly's file, and
before we ever interview him,
689
00:35:40,379 --> 00:35:42,174
we want to know what
we're dealing with,
690
00:35:42,209 --> 00:35:44,487
and I sit down and
read Kelly's file.
691
00:35:47,766 --> 00:35:50,009
Kieran Kelly, the man
who just confessed
692
00:35:50,044 --> 00:35:51,528
to murdering somebody
in the cells,
693
00:35:51,563 --> 00:35:54,497
had been acquitted on a murder
charge from years previous
694
00:35:54,531 --> 00:35:56,292
of another man
called Edward Toal.
695
00:35:56,775 --> 00:35:59,398
[tense music]
696
00:36:03,713 --> 00:36:07,061
Toal was another one
of the Vagrant society
697
00:36:07,095 --> 00:36:09,443
who was sleeping on a tomb.
698
00:36:11,514 --> 00:36:15,103
That community was very,
very protective of its,
699
00:36:15,138 --> 00:36:17,140
what they called their skipper,
700
00:36:17,175 --> 00:36:19,004
the place that they slept.
701
00:36:19,038 --> 00:36:20,212
If it was a tombstone,
702
00:36:20,247 --> 00:36:24,078
nobody would dare sleep
on that tombstone,
703
00:36:24,112 --> 00:36:26,253
or they did so at their own risk
704
00:36:26,287 --> 00:36:29,428
because the person who
slept there would make sure
705
00:36:29,463 --> 00:36:34,537
that they were evicted and
usually violently evicted
706
00:36:35,331 --> 00:36:39,197
because violence was never
very far from the surface
707
00:36:41,095 --> 00:36:46,169
as alcohol was the
main purpose in life.
708
00:36:46,618 --> 00:36:48,171
[dramatic orchestral music]
709
00:36:48,206 --> 00:36:50,760
There's certain nights of
the week that you know,
710
00:36:50,794 --> 00:36:53,280
you're more at risk like a
Friday or a Saturday night
711
00:36:53,314 --> 00:36:55,592
because a lot more
people are intoxicated.
712
00:36:55,627 --> 00:36:58,664
And when you're intoxicated,
you're not right in your mind.
713
00:36:58,699 --> 00:37:02,323
Most of the time they're
hurting themselves, they're not,
714
00:37:04,152 --> 00:37:06,120
they're just lashing out
and hurting themselves.
715
00:37:06,154 --> 00:37:10,676
But you constantly
feel like you know,
716
00:37:10,711 --> 00:37:12,678
you need to be
ready for something.
717
00:37:12,713 --> 00:37:17,096
You never relax, you
never feel comfortable.
718
00:37:17,683 --> 00:37:19,547
[tense music]
719
00:37:19,582 --> 00:37:22,274
Edward Toal not
dissimilar to Boyd,
720
00:37:22,309 --> 00:37:24,069
had been strangled to death.
721
00:37:26,382 --> 00:37:28,246
Kelly was picked up for that.
722
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:33,320
It went to court, but by
the time it went to trial
723
00:37:33,630 --> 00:37:35,736
Kelly had been
remanded in prison
724
00:37:35,770 --> 00:37:36,806
for a number of months.
725
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,394
He hadn't had a drink.
726
00:37:38,428 --> 00:37:40,361
He was well dressed,
he was fresh,
727
00:37:40,396 --> 00:37:43,364
he'd kind of had months of
sleep, he'd months without drink,
728
00:37:43,399 --> 00:37:46,333
and the two key
witnesses who were there
729
00:37:46,367 --> 00:37:49,646
to testify against him were
basically pulled off the street,
730
00:37:49,681 --> 00:37:51,441
still in the grip of addiction.
731
00:37:52,373 --> 00:37:53,995
If there is a
murder, they'll have
732
00:37:54,030 --> 00:37:55,549
to gather enough evidence.
733
00:37:55,583 --> 00:37:58,724
And the homeless community
closes up shop, they don't talk.
734
00:37:58,759 --> 00:38:01,348
You don't talk because
you ain't going to survive
735
00:38:01,382 --> 00:38:04,074
if you're grassing
on fellow people.
736
00:38:04,109 --> 00:38:07,285
So how could they put
any more resources
737
00:38:07,319 --> 00:38:13,319
into a place where no one
willingly wants that to be solved?
738
00:38:14,361 --> 00:38:17,536
If I witnessed something like
that, I'd be reporting it.
739
00:38:18,399 --> 00:38:22,058
If I saw someone struggle
with somebody as an assault,
740
00:38:22,092 --> 00:38:24,440
I think I'd raise
my voice at least,
741
00:38:24,474 --> 00:38:28,236
depending on how brave
I felt or how capable
742
00:38:28,271 --> 00:38:30,066
I would try and intervene
743
00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:31,481
if I felt it was safe to do so.
744
00:38:33,276 --> 00:38:35,382
Not everybody's
like that though.
745
00:38:35,416 --> 00:38:38,246
People will turn a blind
eye and look the other way,
746
00:38:38,281 --> 00:38:41,491
feel threatened themselves by
witnessing something like that,
747
00:38:41,526 --> 00:38:44,114
thinking that someone's
going to come after them.
748
00:38:45,012 --> 00:38:48,360
Obviously some sort
of violence would be,
749
00:38:48,395 --> 00:38:51,674
some sort of revenge
would be enacted after,
750
00:38:51,708 --> 00:38:55,712
but inherently in themselves
they wouldn't do that.
751
00:38:55,747 --> 00:38:57,024
That's informing.
752
00:38:57,058 --> 00:38:58,266
They wouldn't do that.
753
00:38:59,267 --> 00:39:00,683
And What would you care?
754
00:39:00,717 --> 00:39:02,650
Why would you want
to track 'em down?
755
00:39:03,789 --> 00:39:04,963
You want to get a drink.
756
00:39:04,997 --> 00:39:07,759
You're not worried whether
they're dead or alive.
757
00:39:10,762 --> 00:39:15,007
Any witnesses he did have
were seen as unreliable
758
00:39:15,042 --> 00:39:18,183
by the police, and they
probably were unreliable because
759
00:39:18,217 --> 00:39:19,529
of drugs and alcohol.
760
00:39:22,532 --> 00:39:24,672
Kelly was subsequently
acquitted.
761
00:39:26,571 --> 00:39:29,263
[tense music]
762
00:39:30,678 --> 00:39:34,786
In the file in front of me
was this story of murder.
763
00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:38,686
And before I went into
interview Kelly, I thought,
764
00:39:39,653 --> 00:39:43,553
I wonder now he's caught
bang to rights for murder
765
00:39:43,588 --> 00:39:44,727
in the cell.
766
00:39:45,348 --> 00:39:47,350
I wonder if he'll
actually tell the truth
767
00:39:47,385 --> 00:39:50,733
and admit that he killed Toal.
768
00:39:52,597 --> 00:39:56,566
I questioned him about why
he did the thing to Boyd
769
00:39:56,601 --> 00:40:01,571
in the cell, and he said,
"He was snoring, he was loud,
770
00:40:01,606 --> 00:40:05,195
"he ain't now," and that
was Kelly's attitude.
771
00:40:05,230 --> 00:40:06,265
He'd done it.
772
00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:08,992
So, he was quite happy.
773
00:40:09,027 --> 00:40:10,349
You're caught bang
to rights with Boyd.
774
00:40:10,373 --> 00:40:11,592
You know there's
no way out of that.
775
00:40:11,616 --> 00:40:14,377
You then decide to come clean
and tell us all the truth.
776
00:40:14,412 --> 00:40:16,103
As far as the police
were concerned,
777
00:40:16,137 --> 00:40:18,312
that was still an
unsolved murder.
778
00:40:18,346 --> 00:40:21,211
So, I won't mention
it, but I'll just say,
779
00:40:21,246 --> 00:40:22,420
what about the others?
780
00:40:24,111 --> 00:40:26,562
[tense music]
781
00:40:27,494 --> 00:40:29,565
He said, "You're talking
about Fisher, aren't you?"
782
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:31,429
Fisher?
783
00:40:34,362 --> 00:40:36,364
I didn't have a
clue who Fisher was.
784
00:40:37,538 --> 00:40:39,229
[tense music]
785
00:40:39,264 --> 00:40:41,542
Would you tell me
again how you did him?
786
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:45,408
[Kelly] I give him a whallop.
787
00:40:45,443 --> 00:40:48,135
And I cut him, I don't
think they were stabs.
788
00:40:48,169 --> 00:40:49,169
I'm not sure.
789
00:40:50,068 --> 00:40:53,036
[tense music]
790
00:40:53,071 --> 00:40:55,487
And he said, "I was too
clever for you, wasn't I?"
791
00:40:55,522 --> 00:40:56,592
I said, "Yep."
792
00:40:58,076 --> 00:40:59,491
I didn't know anything.
793
00:41:00,147 --> 00:41:03,357
And winked at the sergeant who
flew out the door to find out
794
00:41:03,391 --> 00:41:04,391
who Fisher was.
795
00:41:05,532 --> 00:41:08,500
We see a big kid here,
he's very childish
796
00:41:08,535 --> 00:41:11,020
and very emotionally
immature in this sense.
797
00:41:11,054 --> 00:41:12,653
It's kind of, yeah,
I've got one over you.
798
00:41:12,677 --> 00:41:13,747
He's playing with them.
799
00:41:13,781 --> 00:41:15,196
He's goading them.
800
00:41:15,231 --> 00:41:17,682
Yeah, and we see him
thriving from doing that.
801
00:41:18,061 --> 00:41:19,822
[Kelly laughing]
802
00:41:22,307 --> 00:41:24,792
[tense music]
803
00:41:26,656 --> 00:41:31,143
In 1975, a businessman
called Hector Fisher,
804
00:41:31,178 --> 00:41:35,423
his body was found on a
park bench behind me here,
805
00:41:35,458 --> 00:41:37,425
stabbed and beaten.
806
00:41:37,460 --> 00:41:39,669
[siren wailing]
807
00:41:39,704 --> 00:41:41,464
Nobody had ever been arrested.
808
00:41:42,292 --> 00:41:47,366
It was just another
murder by some vagrant.
809
00:41:49,299 --> 00:41:52,544
So I said to Kelly, "Okay,
let's talk about Fisher.
810
00:41:52,579 --> 00:41:53,614
What happened?"
811
00:41:53,649 --> 00:41:55,443
Now, funnily enough,
Hector Fisher
812
00:41:55,478 --> 00:41:58,654
was not actually
part of that society.
813
00:41:58,688 --> 00:42:01,691
He had a house, I
think he had a pension.
814
00:42:02,589 --> 00:42:03,590
[tense music]
815
00:42:03,624 --> 00:42:04,970
His business failed.
816
00:42:05,005 --> 00:42:09,768
He fell on hard times,
and he found himself
817
00:42:09,803 --> 00:42:14,117
in the company of homeless
people like Kelly.
818
00:42:14,152 --> 00:42:16,499
They'd drunk together
on numerous occasions.
819
00:42:17,465 --> 00:42:18,984
How many times did you stab him?
820
00:42:19,019 --> 00:42:20,710
[Kelly] I don't know.
821
00:42:20,745 --> 00:42:23,126
I was, I had a good drink on me.
822
00:42:23,161 --> 00:42:27,717
He said, "Dirty bugger
wanted my arse."
823
00:42:27,752 --> 00:42:30,271
So I cut him, I
cut his bollocks.
824
00:42:31,687 --> 00:42:33,585
So then I stabbed him,
and then I hit him
825
00:42:33,620 --> 00:42:35,553
"over the head with a brick."
826
00:42:35,587 --> 00:42:37,451
He said, "But you
never knew it was me."
827
00:42:37,485 --> 00:42:38,659
I said, "No, I didn't."
828
00:42:39,626 --> 00:42:41,351
[dramatic orchestral music]
829
00:42:41,386 --> 00:42:43,319
He said, "I robbed him as well."
830
00:42:44,251 --> 00:42:45,528
I said, "Oh, did you?"
831
00:42:45,563 --> 00:42:46,564
"Yeah."
832
00:42:46,598 --> 00:42:49,359
He said, "He had a wad
of money in his pocket,
833
00:42:49,394 --> 00:42:52,017
and I took it all
except for 40 quid,
834
00:42:52,052 --> 00:42:55,158
and I left the 40 pounds,
two 20 pound notes, it was,"
835
00:42:55,193 --> 00:42:57,575
he said, "And I left
them in his pocket."
836
00:42:58,437 --> 00:43:01,579
We look at the report from
the pathologist who went
837
00:43:01,613 --> 00:43:03,719
to the scene, and sure enough,
838
00:43:03,753 --> 00:43:07,654
inside Fisher's pockets
was two 20 pound notes.
839
00:43:07,688 --> 00:43:09,379
Nobody could have known that,
840
00:43:10,415 --> 00:43:12,037
it had to be right.
841
00:43:12,072 --> 00:43:13,418
[dramatic orchestral music]
842
00:43:13,452 --> 00:43:16,352
All of the details match
that he would do that apart
843
00:43:16,386 --> 00:43:20,632
from one, he says that
he cut in his word,
844
00:43:20,667 --> 00:43:25,706
his bollocks, which wasn't
found to be the case.
845
00:43:26,224 --> 00:43:29,676
I think this is just a
simple embellishment.
846
00:43:29,710 --> 00:43:32,782
He embellishes,
that's Kelly to a T.
847
00:43:32,817 --> 00:43:34,301
He's got to tell a story.
848
00:43:34,335 --> 00:43:36,061
He's got to do his performance.
849
00:43:36,683 --> 00:43:39,064
Ian and I conducted the
first few interviews
850
00:43:39,099 --> 00:43:42,171
with Kelly when he was arrested
at Clapham Police Station.
851
00:43:42,205 --> 00:43:44,725
Kelly told us that he
was actually interviewed.
852
00:43:46,175 --> 00:43:48,453
He must have been a person
of interest at that time,
853
00:43:48,487 --> 00:43:49,488
or a suspect.
854
00:43:50,662 --> 00:43:54,079
So Brown now has a
file in front of him
855
00:43:54,114 --> 00:43:57,082
that Kieran Kelly, the
man who just confessed
856
00:43:57,117 --> 00:43:58,566
to murdering somebody
in the cells,
857
00:43:58,601 --> 00:44:00,568
had been acquitted
on a murder charge
858
00:44:00,603 --> 00:44:02,570
from years previous
of another man.
859
00:44:02,743 --> 00:44:04,607
He subsequently confessed
860
00:44:04,642 --> 00:44:08,128
to murdering Hector Fisher
here in Clapham Common.
861
00:44:10,061 --> 00:44:13,651
[dramatic orchestral music]
862
00:44:16,446 --> 00:44:19,587
I said, "Okay, when did
it all start, Kelly?"
863
00:44:19,622 --> 00:44:21,589
He said, "Coronation."
864
00:44:21,624 --> 00:44:23,315
[grand orchestral music]
865
00:44:23,350 --> 00:44:24,316
I said, "What do you mean?"
866
00:44:24,351 --> 00:44:26,318
"1953," he said.
867
00:44:26,353 --> 00:44:28,631
"Baker Street Tube Station."
868
00:44:28,666 --> 00:44:31,461
Suddenly you're
sitting there thinking,
869
00:44:31,496 --> 00:44:35,224
I had a simple murder here,
one person dead in the cells.
870
00:44:37,088 --> 00:44:41,057
And suddenly I haven't
got a clue what I've got.
871
00:44:41,092 --> 00:44:44,716
[dramatic orchestral music]
872
00:44:46,787 --> 00:44:49,687
[Announcer] And with what
pride shall those who watch
873
00:44:49,721 --> 00:44:54,312
recall in after years, "I saw
the queen on Coronation Day."
874
00:44:54,346 --> 00:44:57,453
[crowd cheering]
875
00:44:57,487 --> 00:44:59,351
[dramatic orchestral music]
876
00:44:59,386 --> 00:45:02,423
[Rob] Brown says, "Okay, Kelly,
when did this all start?"
877
00:45:04,529 --> 00:45:06,496
And Kelly says, "It
started in 1953"
878
00:45:07,601 --> 00:45:10,604
when I pushed my friend
in front of a tube train
879
00:45:10,638 --> 00:45:12,364
"at Baker Street Tube Station."
880
00:45:12,399 --> 00:45:15,022
[dramatic orchestral music]
881
00:45:15,057 --> 00:45:17,024
He said, "I came
over from Ireland"
882
00:45:17,059 --> 00:45:21,304
with a friend of mine,
Christy Smith, and two tongs,
883
00:45:21,339 --> 00:45:23,065
two prostitutes.
884
00:45:23,099 --> 00:45:26,689
One was Kathleen, and that
was Christie's girlfriend,
885
00:45:27,448 --> 00:45:29,519
the other one," he said,
"I can't remember her name,
886
00:45:29,554 --> 00:45:32,488
but I didn't want
anything to do with her."
887
00:45:33,454 --> 00:45:36,699
They had travelled to London
for the Queen's coronation.
888
00:45:38,770 --> 00:45:41,497
And after a day on
the town in London,
889
00:45:41,531 --> 00:45:43,706
they're in Baker
Street Tube Station.
890
00:45:45,501 --> 00:45:47,779
[Officer] Alright then-Mr.
Brown's gonna ask you now
891
00:45:47,814 --> 00:45:52,508
about Christy Smith
and go over that again.
892
00:45:52,542 --> 00:45:53,612
[Ian] Yeah.
893
00:45:53,647 --> 00:45:57,237
It's interesting Kelly
that when we talk to you,
894
00:45:58,790 --> 00:46:00,999
you usually come
back to Christy Smith
895
00:46:01,034 --> 00:46:02,218
'cause that's where
it all started.
896
00:46:02,242 --> 00:46:04,244
[Kelly] Well yeah, that was,
897
00:46:04,278 --> 00:46:07,799
I would've never
mentioned none of them.
898
00:46:11,458 --> 00:46:13,667
According to Kelly on
this particular day,
899
00:46:13,701 --> 00:46:15,289
they were had a good
drink and they were
900
00:46:15,324 --> 00:46:19,293
at Baker Street Tube
Station when Christy Smith
901
00:46:20,778 --> 00:46:22,262
called him a queer.
902
00:46:22,296 --> 00:46:26,335
And Kelly got upset and
threw him under the tube.
903
00:46:26,369 --> 00:46:28,613
[train whooshing]
904
00:46:28,647 --> 00:46:30,373
Now that's Kelly's story.
905
00:46:31,616 --> 00:46:32,651
Did it happen?
906
00:46:33,514 --> 00:46:36,483
We'll never know, but
there's no record anywhere
907
00:46:36,517 --> 00:46:38,692
of anybody being killed
908
00:46:38,726 --> 00:46:42,385
at Baker Street Tube
Station in 1953.
909
00:46:45,216 --> 00:46:47,218
Kelly says he killed
Christy Smith.
910
00:46:47,252 --> 00:46:51,049
And he absolutely believed
that he killed Christy Smith.
911
00:46:51,084 --> 00:46:53,603
[tense music]
912
00:46:56,434 --> 00:46:59,575
The London Underground
Network it's a big system.
913
00:46:59,609 --> 00:47:02,578
It's one of the biggest
systems in the world,
914
00:47:02,612 --> 00:47:03,751
and it's very busy.
915
00:47:03,786 --> 00:47:07,376
It's carrying literally
millions of people every day.
916
00:47:08,515 --> 00:47:11,069
And of course, death on
the London Underground
917
00:47:11,104 --> 00:47:14,003
is quite a common event
because unfortunately,
918
00:47:14,038 --> 00:47:17,696
it's the method of choice
for a lot of people
919
00:47:17,731 --> 00:47:20,354
who decide to end
their own lives.
920
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,048
[dramatic orchestral music]
921
00:47:24,082 --> 00:47:27,775
I'm John McDermott and I
was homeless in the '80s,
922
00:47:28,638 --> 00:47:32,470
never really settled down for
more than five years anywhere.
923
00:47:34,023 --> 00:47:37,371
There were people who
basically lived down
924
00:47:37,406 --> 00:47:40,443
underground really, and they
knew there was passing traffic.
925
00:47:40,478 --> 00:47:44,171
They knew they could
blag a 10p or whatever.
926
00:47:44,206 --> 00:47:46,760
Back in those days, it
was like for a cup of tea
927
00:47:46,794 --> 00:47:49,245
or something, so they
could pass the day.
928
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,384
It was reasonably safe.
929
00:47:50,419 --> 00:47:51,834
It was dry.
930
00:47:52,214 --> 00:47:56,011
It was frightening being in
a packed tube station waiting
931
00:47:56,045 --> 00:47:59,531
for a tube coming in at
20 miles an hour even.
932
00:47:59,566 --> 00:48:02,983
Somebody who's malicious,
who's psychopathic,
933
00:48:03,018 --> 00:48:04,502
sociopathic, yeah, sure.
934
00:48:04,536 --> 00:48:07,332
Yeah, I can imagine that
would be ideal opportunity
935
00:48:07,367 --> 00:48:08,816
to go and hurt someone.
936
00:48:09,645 --> 00:48:12,820
Yeah, I mean, there's some
horrible, nasty people out there.
937
00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:16,755
[tense music]
938
00:48:19,275 --> 00:48:23,107
Kelly never, ever showed
emotion except for one thing.
939
00:48:24,108 --> 00:48:27,697
And that was Christy
Smith where it all started
940
00:48:27,732 --> 00:48:29,009
and it's on your mind.
941
00:48:29,044 --> 00:48:32,254
He said so many times
it's on your mind.
942
00:48:32,288 --> 00:48:34,394
Not all the time, but
it's on your mind.
943
00:48:36,396 --> 00:48:39,399
I don't think he had
regret, but it was one
944
00:48:39,433 --> 00:48:41,228
that kept coming back to him
945
00:48:41,263 --> 00:48:43,265
because he was
actually a friend.
946
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,096
Had he not murdered
Christy Smith,
947
00:48:47,131 --> 00:48:50,513
his life may have
gone down another road
948
00:48:50,548 --> 00:48:54,552
than the road of murder that
he ultimately travelled.
949
00:48:55,587 --> 00:48:58,004
That time period when
Christie Smith died
950
00:48:58,038 --> 00:48:59,971
had some significance for him,
951
00:49:00,006 --> 00:49:02,594
and that's why it's become
ingrained in his memory.
952
00:49:03,388 --> 00:49:05,287
We know Kelly liked
to tell a story.
953
00:49:05,321 --> 00:49:06,598
We know he liked to perform.
954
00:49:06,633 --> 00:49:09,498
So, I believe he's
been telling people,
955
00:49:09,532 --> 00:49:12,811
probably homeless people
to boost his status.
956
00:49:12,846 --> 00:49:13,812
He's been telling them
957
00:49:13,847 --> 00:49:16,229
that he did this
Christy Smith murder,
958
00:49:16,263 --> 00:49:20,198
and after 30 years of telling
that story mixed with alcohol,
959
00:49:20,233 --> 00:49:24,582
mixed with loads of other
violent crimes and other murders,
960
00:49:24,616 --> 00:49:27,309
he genuinely believes he did it.
961
00:49:28,413 --> 00:49:30,553
[Kelly] But I want, I just
wanted to [indistinct].
962
00:49:30,588 --> 00:49:32,566
[Ian] You really want to get
Christy Smith off your mind,
963
00:49:32,590 --> 00:49:34,178
don't ya?
964
00:49:34,212 --> 00:49:36,156
[Kelly] I wanted to get
'em all out my mind, right?
965
00:49:36,180 --> 00:49:37,778
Yeah, but that's the
first- that's the big one.
966
00:49:37,802 --> 00:49:40,184
[Kelly] That was the one
that started it, yeah.
967
00:49:40,218 --> 00:49:43,739
[tense music]
968
00:49:43,773 --> 00:49:47,398
Could it be that Kieran
Kelly heard somewhere
969
00:49:47,432 --> 00:49:50,539
down the line that Christie
Smith died under a train
970
00:49:51,333 --> 00:49:53,991
and thought that maybe
he was responsible
971
00:49:54,025 --> 00:49:55,544
and that it happened
at Baker Street
972
00:49:55,578 --> 00:50:00,204
and that he didn't have all
the details of the story.
973
00:50:00,238 --> 00:50:02,413
[tense music]
974
00:50:02,447 --> 00:50:07,521
In 1983, we didn't have
ticket gates on Tube Stations,
975
00:50:07,797 --> 00:50:11,215
so it was easy to pass
without being checked.
976
00:50:11,249 --> 00:50:15,046
And a lot of the street dwellers
drinkers, homeless people,
977
00:50:15,081 --> 00:50:17,531
would go down the
underground, the tube,
978
00:50:17,566 --> 00:50:19,430
to keep warm and
out of the rain.
979
00:50:19,464 --> 00:50:22,812
It was a case of surviving
out in the elements,
980
00:50:22,847 --> 00:50:25,815
knowing that you're going
to wake up relatively dry
981
00:50:25,850 --> 00:50:31,850
or safe and not so cold as
you were the night before.
982
00:50:35,032 --> 00:50:37,448
There's a lot of
violence in this world.
983
00:50:37,482 --> 00:50:39,312
I guess it naturally
follows with Kelly
984
00:50:39,346 --> 00:50:42,246
that they get into an
altercation on the tube train.
985
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,352
This is something that he did
on more than one occasion.
986
00:50:45,697 --> 00:50:47,320
[tense music]
987
00:50:47,354 --> 00:50:48,804
When you are down
a tube station,
988
00:50:48,838 --> 00:50:50,771
they run every two
minutes and you are going
989
00:50:50,806 --> 00:50:52,704
to have a fight, the likelihood
990
00:50:52,739 --> 00:50:55,397
is that somebody will
finish up under the train.
991
00:50:56,467 --> 00:50:59,780
And I think that that is
purely and simply the facts
992
00:50:59,815 --> 00:51:01,610
of Kelly's life.
993
00:51:01,644 --> 00:51:05,269
If somebody tried to steal
his drink, he'd hit him,
994
00:51:05,303 --> 00:51:08,099
he'd assault him, he'd
push him, he'd shove him.
995
00:51:08,134 --> 00:51:10,446
Well, if there happened to
be a train going by, well,
996
00:51:10,481 --> 00:51:12,172
so what, didn't matter.
997
00:51:13,208 --> 00:51:15,382
[tense music]
998
00:51:15,417 --> 00:51:18,489
Millions of people use the
London Underground every day.
999
00:51:19,386 --> 00:51:21,181
Probably lots of people think,
1000
00:51:21,216 --> 00:51:23,114
somebody could push me
in front of that train
1001
00:51:23,149 --> 00:51:26,462
if somebody was deranged,
was standing behind me.
1002
00:51:26,497 --> 00:51:28,533
But you know, it could happen.
1003
00:51:29,465 --> 00:51:32,296
I honestly don't think he
said, "Oh, this is fun.
1004
00:51:32,330 --> 00:51:34,574
I'll push people under a train."
1005
00:51:34,608 --> 00:51:37,059
I mean, he said
about Jock Gordon,
1006
00:51:37,818 --> 00:51:39,303
"I just gave him a whack."
1007
00:51:40,580 --> 00:51:41,788
Why did you?
1008
00:51:41,822 --> 00:51:43,490
[Kelly] I told you I was
sitting on the station waiting
1009
00:51:43,514 --> 00:51:44,377
to get the tube.
1010
00:51:44,411 --> 00:51:46,033
Had no ticket, right?
1011
00:51:46,068 --> 00:51:47,173
[Ian] Yes.
1012
00:51:47,207 --> 00:51:50,210
[Kelly] And he came along
and he was a bit drunk.
1013
00:51:50,245 --> 00:51:53,386
He wasn't really drunk, but
he had the drink on him.
1014
00:51:54,180 --> 00:51:55,664
He said, "Hello
there, you any drink?"
1015
00:51:55,698 --> 00:51:57,010
I said, "No fucking drink.
1016
00:51:57,044 --> 00:51:59,219
I am waiting on the tube."
1017
00:51:59,254 --> 00:52:00,117
And he said "You must have."
1018
00:52:00,151 --> 00:52:01,635
And I said, "Fuck off."
1019
00:52:01,670 --> 00:52:02,774
And I'm sitting down.
1020
00:52:03,637 --> 00:52:04,845
He came by me.
1021
00:52:06,606 --> 00:52:08,194
He told me, "What did you say?"
1022
00:52:08,228 --> 00:52:09,516
So I let fly at him,
but I missed him.
1023
00:52:09,540 --> 00:52:10,610
I caught him on the-
1024
00:52:11,714 --> 00:52:12,760
- Shoulder?
- On the shoulder,
1025
00:52:12,784 --> 00:52:14,165
and he went, gone.
1026
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,178
And I wasn't worried, if there
was a train coming in or not.
1027
00:52:16,202 --> 00:52:17,341
Fair enough.
1028
00:52:17,375 --> 00:52:20,585
[dramatic music]
1029
00:52:21,310 --> 00:52:24,624
If he got into a
fight, he wouldn't care
1030
00:52:24,658 --> 00:52:26,798
whether there was a
train going by or not.
1031
00:52:27,730 --> 00:52:31,078
10 fights, three people
finish up under a train.
1032
00:52:32,563 --> 00:52:35,704
It's just law of
averages they've got to.
1033
00:52:35,738 --> 00:52:36,774
[tense music]
1034
00:52:36,808 --> 00:52:38,638
We've got this
perfect storm here
1035
00:52:38,672 --> 00:52:42,228
where you've got a
violent man living
1036
00:52:42,262 --> 00:52:47,060
in a subculture where he could
get away with that violence.
1037
00:52:52,134 --> 00:52:53,756
[tense music]
1038
00:52:53,791 --> 00:52:56,794
I really couldn't see that
it was possible for anybody
1039
00:52:56,828 --> 00:52:58,589
to commit that number of murders
1040
00:52:58,623 --> 00:53:02,213
on the London Underground
Network, and nobody noticed.
1041
00:53:02,248 --> 00:53:03,811
'Cause that's what we
were expected to believe,
1042
00:53:03,835 --> 00:53:05,423
that he got away
with all these crimes
1043
00:53:05,458 --> 00:53:07,632
because no one noticed
them happening.
1044
00:53:07,667 --> 00:53:09,496
I just don't believe that.
1045
00:53:10,532 --> 00:53:13,190
[tense music]
1046
00:53:14,743 --> 00:53:19,679
Kelly confessed to killing
another homeless man in 1976,
1047
00:53:20,818 --> 00:53:26,617
in a squat used by Kelly and
other kind of homeless people,
1048
00:53:26,651 --> 00:53:28,550
or kind of people
looking for somewhere
1049
00:53:28,584 --> 00:53:30,655
to kind of bed
down for the night.
1050
00:53:30,690 --> 00:53:32,726
The man was called Patsy Waters.
1051
00:53:33,762 --> 00:53:35,049
[Ian] So you knew Patsy Walters.
1052
00:53:35,073 --> 00:53:36,282
Is that Correct?
1053
00:53:36,316 --> 00:53:37,352
[Kelly] Pardon?
1054
00:53:38,422 --> 00:53:39,388
[Ian] Come on, you're
laughing again.
1055
00:53:39,423 --> 00:53:40,527
Come on, Kelly.
1056
00:53:40,562 --> 00:53:43,427
You told me that you didn't
know who the man was.
1057
00:53:43,461 --> 00:53:45,705
Now I've just said to you,
was Patsy Walters there?
1058
00:53:45,739 --> 00:53:49,743
And you said yes, he
was there, haven't ya?
1059
00:53:49,778 --> 00:53:52,090
Now, you knew Patsy
Walkers, Kelly.
1060
00:53:52,815 --> 00:53:53,644
Come on now.
1061
00:53:53,678 --> 00:53:54,852
Will you tell us the truth?
1062
00:53:56,750 --> 00:54:00,789
So when Kelly described the
murder of Patsy Walters,
1063
00:54:00,823 --> 00:54:06,760
he described it in detail of
how they were in this skipper,
1064
00:54:06,795 --> 00:54:09,487
as they call them,
place to sleep.
1065
00:54:09,522 --> 00:54:11,627
It was a derelict building.
1066
00:54:11,662 --> 00:54:14,596
Patsy Walters had
upset him, how?
1067
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:19,117
We don't know, but Kelly
had a bottle of whisky.
1068
00:54:19,842 --> 00:54:21,475
[Kelly] That one
photograph you just shown.
1069
00:54:21,499 --> 00:54:22,673
[Ian] The photograph, yeah.
1070
00:54:22,707 --> 00:54:24,433
[Kelly] That's the man I done.
1071
00:54:24,468 --> 00:54:26,332
But I didn't know who he was.
1072
00:54:26,366 --> 00:54:29,576
[tense music]
1073
00:54:29,611 --> 00:54:31,613
Kelly said he
killed Patsy Walters
1074
00:54:31,647 --> 00:54:35,237
by force-feeding him
a bottle of whisky.
1075
00:54:35,272 --> 00:54:38,033
He sat across Patsy
Walters when he was drunk
1076
00:54:38,067 --> 00:54:41,623
on the floor and
essentially stuffed a bottle
1077
00:54:41,657 --> 00:54:45,316
of whisky down his
throat and that Walters
1078
00:54:45,351 --> 00:54:48,112
was bringing up and kind
of essentially choked
1079
00:54:48,146 --> 00:54:49,562
on his own vomit.
1080
00:54:50,252 --> 00:54:54,083
[Ian] The way you described to
me that you killed him before
1081
00:54:54,118 --> 00:54:55,337
when you, remember you got down
1082
00:54:55,361 --> 00:54:56,741
on your knees in this office,
1083
00:54:56,776 --> 00:54:58,156
and you showed me
with the towel.
1084
00:54:58,191 --> 00:54:59,365
[Kelly] Yeah.
1085
00:54:59,399 --> 00:55:03,369
He demonstrated how he
got down on his knees,
1086
00:55:03,403 --> 00:55:07,131
put his head between his
legs, pulled his chin down
1087
00:55:07,165 --> 00:55:09,340
and poured the whisky
down his throat.
1088
00:55:10,479 --> 00:55:13,551
When he's explaining
that he's very graphic
1089
00:55:13,586 --> 00:55:16,313
about putting a towel
or some kind of fabric
1090
00:55:16,347 --> 00:55:21,110
around the neck, up to the
ears, pouring the drink down,
1091
00:55:21,145 --> 00:55:22,733
hearing the man gurgling.
1092
00:55:23,527 --> 00:55:25,287
[Patsy coughing]
1093
00:55:25,322 --> 00:55:28,255
[Ian] Patsy Walters
died in exactly the way
1094
00:55:28,290 --> 00:55:30,119
that Kelly said he did.
1095
00:55:31,293 --> 00:55:35,262
But according to the
records, Kelly was in prison
1096
00:55:36,091 --> 00:55:38,196
at the time of that death.
1097
00:55:40,716 --> 00:55:43,443
Even if he didn't do
that, this is something,
1098
00:55:43,478 --> 00:55:44,996
I believe he had
done in the past.
1099
00:55:45,031 --> 00:55:46,791
So even if it wasn't
that particular man,
1100
00:55:46,826 --> 00:55:51,209
he has killed someone this
way, I suspect before.
1101
00:55:51,244 --> 00:55:53,315
This is the whole
Kelly Case to a T.
1102
00:55:53,350 --> 00:55:54,696
Just utter chaos.
1103
00:55:54,730 --> 00:55:58,769
He doesn't even remember
who he's killed.
1104
00:56:00,357 --> 00:56:02,635
[Ian] But you were in prison
when Patsy Walters died.
1105
00:56:02,669 --> 00:56:05,016
[Kelly] Then that's
not the same one.
1106
00:56:05,051 --> 00:56:08,157
[Ian] But you, see you're
playing a game with us Kelly.
1107
00:56:08,192 --> 00:56:09,331
You're laughing again.
1108
00:56:09,366 --> 00:56:11,126
And you're playing-
- That's it.
1109
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:12,265
Right?
1110
00:56:12,299 --> 00:56:13,404
I could go make a fella.
1111
00:56:13,439 --> 00:56:15,786
He could turn around
and say I'm Paty Walters
1112
00:56:15,820 --> 00:56:17,304
and I'd fucking kill him.
1113
00:56:18,167 --> 00:56:19,168
Right.
1114
00:56:19,203 --> 00:56:20,100
Simple as that.
1115
00:56:20,135 --> 00:56:21,032
They don't use all the one.
1116
00:56:21,067 --> 00:56:23,034
[Ian] No, listen,
you are laughing.
1117
00:56:23,069 --> 00:56:25,451
[tense music]
1118
00:56:25,485 --> 00:56:28,557
So if the records are right,
he couldn't have done it.
1119
00:56:29,455 --> 00:56:33,769
There's a few instances where
Kelly introduces stories
1120
00:56:33,804 --> 00:56:36,185
that would indicate he's lying.
1121
00:56:36,220 --> 00:56:37,359
I don't think he's lying.
1122
00:56:37,394 --> 00:56:39,775
I think he genuinely believes
that he's done these.
1123
00:56:42,329 --> 00:56:45,781
Kelly was so drunk for so much
1124
00:56:45,816 --> 00:56:51,062
of the time that his
recollection can't be pure.
1125
00:56:51,753 --> 00:56:56,274
It's got to be alcohol
induced or alcohol affected.
1126
00:56:56,309 --> 00:56:58,725
So, I don't know if Kelly lied
1127
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,349
or if he just didn't
know the truth.
1128
00:57:02,384 --> 00:57:04,835
[tense music]
1129
00:57:07,424 --> 00:57:10,461
If we think about the
Christie Smith case,
1130
00:57:10,496 --> 00:57:13,257
he said that that
was his first murder.
1131
00:57:13,291 --> 00:57:16,743
It was what set him
off down this road.
1132
00:57:16,778 --> 00:57:19,608
Ultimately, we
traced Christy Smith,
1133
00:57:19,643 --> 00:57:22,335
or we traced his
family back in Ireland,
1134
00:57:22,369 --> 00:57:25,269
and they tell us that
yes, Christie did die
1135
00:57:25,303 --> 00:57:26,512
under a tube train.
1136
00:57:27,409 --> 00:57:30,032
[tense music]
1137
00:57:30,723 --> 00:57:32,725
But it wasn't at
Baker Street Station,
1138
00:57:32,759 --> 00:57:35,555
and it wasn't in 1953.
1139
00:57:35,590 --> 00:57:37,143
[Ian] Tell us the truth.
1140
00:57:37,177 --> 00:57:39,317
Tell us the truth, Kelly.
1141
00:57:40,526 --> 00:57:43,011
[tense music]
1142
00:57:43,045 --> 00:57:45,496
He died under a train in Pinner,
1143
00:57:45,531 --> 00:57:48,741
where he was kind of
working, for a rail company.
1144
00:57:48,775 --> 00:57:52,607
And the dates didn't match,
and the location didn't match.
1145
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,025
Christy Smith was
hit by a train,
1146
00:57:57,059 --> 00:57:59,510
so we know that Keiran
Kelly didn't do that.
1147
00:58:01,029 --> 00:58:03,065
So why is he
claiming that he did?
1148
00:58:04,411 --> 00:58:05,516
[Ian] Tell us the truth.
1149
00:58:05,551 --> 00:58:07,553
[Kelly] I'm telling
you the truth.
1150
00:58:08,312 --> 00:58:11,660
[tense music]
1151
00:58:11,695 --> 00:58:15,353
Alcohol affects the executive
function of the brain.
1152
00:58:15,388 --> 00:58:19,496
So that's the part of the brain
that controls our impulses,
1153
00:58:19,530 --> 00:58:23,500
controls our emotions, and
helps us regulate our emotions.
1154
00:58:23,534 --> 00:58:26,123
It also helps us make decisions.
1155
00:58:27,331 --> 00:58:31,128
Alcohol reduces your impulses,
and here we've got a man
1156
00:58:31,162 --> 00:58:33,268
with impulse control issues.
1157
00:58:33,302 --> 00:58:36,305
So once you add
the two together,
1158
00:58:36,340 --> 00:58:38,687
it's just an explosion
waiting to happen.
1159
00:58:39,826 --> 00:58:43,071
The big problem is that
you really don't know
1160
00:58:43,105 --> 00:58:46,212
when you're talking to
Kelly what to believe
1161
00:58:46,246 --> 00:58:47,593
and what not to.
1162
00:58:52,632 --> 00:58:55,635
[tense music]
1163
00:58:55,670 --> 00:59:00,019
Kieran Kelly was I think
primarily intoxicated.
1164
00:59:01,434 --> 00:59:04,023
He was drunk more
than he wasn't.
1165
00:59:04,057 --> 00:59:09,304
So, you've got this
boiling pot of a man
1166
00:59:09,338 --> 00:59:13,377
with impulse control issues,
pouring alcohol and all
1167
00:59:13,411 --> 00:59:16,414
of the stresses of homelessness
into that boiling pot.
1168
00:59:18,140 --> 00:59:21,074
It's a disaster waiting
to happen really.
1169
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:24,561
Kieran Kelly existed in
a word where violence
1170
00:59:24,595 --> 00:59:28,081
was the currency of justice,
Kelly was a violent man
1171
00:59:28,116 --> 00:59:32,189
who could kill people when he
was rubbed up the wrong way,
1172
00:59:32,223 --> 00:59:34,260
I guess, for want
of a better word.
1173
00:59:35,261 --> 00:59:36,780
He's a walking contradiction.
1174
00:59:36,814 --> 00:59:40,991
So you have some people
saying how charming he was,
1175
00:59:41,025 --> 00:59:44,822
yet you're seeing this completely
aggressive side to him.
1176
00:59:47,445 --> 00:59:48,792
In the police interview,
1177
00:59:48,826 --> 00:59:50,448
you see a polite side to him.
1178
00:59:50,483 --> 00:59:54,176
He's putting in that effort
to say, please and thank you.
1179
00:59:54,211 --> 00:59:57,663
Yet this is a man who has
just strangled someone
1180
00:59:57,697 --> 00:59:59,699
to death with his own socks.
1181
01:00:00,769 --> 01:00:02,702
It just doesn't match up.
1182
01:00:08,018 --> 01:00:10,365
Kelly always had some
kind of love interest.
1183
01:00:10,399 --> 01:00:13,575
Granted the relationships
didn't last for that long.
1184
01:00:13,610 --> 01:00:16,198
When you're
investigating murder,
1185
01:00:16,233 --> 01:00:18,407
you have to
investigate the victims
1186
01:00:18,442 --> 01:00:19,754
as well as the murderers,
1187
01:00:19,788 --> 01:00:22,480
and you want to know
their life story.
1188
01:00:22,515 --> 01:00:25,104
Kelly told us that he, in
fact, had married someone
1189
01:00:25,138 --> 01:00:28,038
who had five children
before he married her.
1190
01:00:28,072 --> 01:00:29,522
So Kelly would've spent
1191
01:00:29,556 --> 01:00:31,351
a lot of time in
and out of prison,
1192
01:00:31,386 --> 01:00:33,457
most of his adult life
in and out of prison.
1193
01:00:33,491 --> 01:00:36,736
So, he would've been on
a constant rollercoaster
1194
01:00:36,771 --> 01:00:39,566
of intoxication and
coming off alcohol.
1195
01:00:40,533 --> 01:00:45,227
And we do hear reports of
Kelly being a lot nicer
1196
01:00:45,262 --> 01:00:46,504
when he's not on alcohol.
1197
01:00:46,539 --> 01:00:49,473
So not as impulsive,
not as aggressive,
1198
01:00:49,507 --> 01:00:51,302
and also quite charming.
1199
01:00:52,131 --> 01:00:53,546
[dramatic music]
1200
01:00:53,580 --> 01:00:56,722
[Ian] It appears
that for a few years,
1201
01:00:56,756 --> 01:00:59,172
Kelly seems to have
gone fairly straight.
1202
01:01:01,071 --> 01:01:04,626
His rap sheet kind of pauses
in terms of the offences
1203
01:01:04,661 --> 01:01:07,111
that he'd been getting
picked up for by the cops
1204
01:01:07,146 --> 01:01:08,630
in Ireland and England.
1205
01:01:08,665 --> 01:01:10,149
He was busy with his family.
1206
01:01:10,183 --> 01:01:11,426
He was working.
1207
01:01:11,460 --> 01:01:13,773
I'm guessing, you
know, things were good.
1208
01:01:13,808 --> 01:01:15,257
[tense music]
1209
01:01:15,292 --> 01:01:19,261
You might hear people
saying, Kelly was charming,
1210
01:01:19,296 --> 01:01:22,506
but he had a temper on him,
or "I really like Kelly,
1211
01:01:22,540 --> 01:01:24,370
but yeah, he's
capable of murder."
1212
01:01:24,404 --> 01:01:27,442
You've got that constant
contradiction going on.
1213
01:01:28,443 --> 01:01:30,756
And that's another factor
that I think made him
1214
01:01:30,790 --> 01:01:33,724
so dangerous as well
because he could just snap
1215
01:01:33,759 --> 01:01:35,243
at any moment.
1216
01:01:35,277 --> 01:01:37,003
[tense music]
1217
01:01:37,038 --> 01:01:40,455
So if we think of the
intermittent explosive disorder,
1218
01:01:40,489 --> 01:01:43,976
which is usually
someone being violent
1219
01:01:44,010 --> 01:01:45,702
or aggressive when
there's something
1220
01:01:45,736 --> 01:01:49,050
that has evoked them
that's out of proportion.
1221
01:01:51,708 --> 01:01:55,228
Imagine living with
someone who's like that.
1222
01:01:55,263 --> 01:01:58,128
You'd be constantly
walking on eggshells.
1223
01:01:58,162 --> 01:02:00,443
And I think that's why he
couldn't hold down his marriage.
1224
01:02:00,475 --> 01:02:03,685
He couldn't hold down his work,
he couldn't manage to live
1225
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,998
in what we might see
as normal society
1226
01:02:06,032 --> 01:02:11,106
because his behaviours were
just so socially unacceptable.
1227
01:02:12,004 --> 01:02:14,696
Well, the drink and
people are disturbed
1228
01:02:14,731 --> 01:02:16,353
and paranoia used to set in.
1229
01:02:17,250 --> 01:02:18,769
People think someone
said something
1230
01:02:18,804 --> 01:02:23,049
or someone said something
and then it kicks off.
1231
01:02:24,810 --> 01:02:26,604
Broken bottles, everything.
1232
01:02:27,433 --> 01:02:31,023
Well just broken bottles,
fists or broken bottles.
1233
01:02:32,541 --> 01:02:34,681
[tense music]
1234
01:02:34,716 --> 01:02:38,755
The next episode in his life
is the robbery of a house
1235
01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:40,791
where he held people hostage.
1236
01:02:40,826 --> 01:02:43,621
And for that, he gets sent away
1237
01:02:43,656 --> 01:02:46,659
under the Mental
Health Act to Broadmoor
1238
01:02:46,693 --> 01:02:48,281
where he spends two years.
1239
01:02:49,282 --> 01:02:50,283
[tense music]
1240
01:02:50,318 --> 01:02:53,010
Broadmoor had a notorious
reputation then.
1241
01:02:53,045 --> 01:02:55,092
I think he may have been
there during the same period
1242
01:02:55,116 --> 01:02:57,049
as one of the Kray's
was in Broadmoor
1243
01:02:57,083 --> 01:03:01,363
and other high-profile people
in the criminal landscape
1244
01:03:01,398 --> 01:03:03,572
in Britain of that period.
1245
01:03:03,607 --> 01:03:07,093
The psychiatric report of
those days put him there.
1246
01:03:07,128 --> 01:03:10,579
I vaguely remember
that he was diagnosed
1247
01:03:10,614 --> 01:03:13,582
as incorrigible and untreatable.
1248
01:03:13,617 --> 01:03:16,551
I think those were the
words on the bit of paper.
1249
01:03:16,585 --> 01:03:20,624
Today there's debate whether
psychopaths can be treated,
1250
01:03:20,658 --> 01:03:23,420
but we do know it is
resistant to treatment
1251
01:03:23,454 --> 01:03:27,148
and certainly during the time
that Kelly was being assessed,
1252
01:03:27,182 --> 01:03:29,150
it would've been
seen as untreatable.
1253
01:03:30,013 --> 01:03:31,393
What that means, I don't know.
1254
01:03:31,428 --> 01:03:34,258
Well, what it means is
that they chucked him
1255
01:03:34,293 --> 01:03:39,263
back into society even though
he was a danger to society,
1256
01:03:39,298 --> 01:03:41,231
but no treatment.
1257
01:03:43,095 --> 01:03:44,199
[tense music]
1258
01:03:44,234 --> 01:03:47,547
A lot of mental health
issues aren't picked up on.
1259
01:03:48,410 --> 01:03:52,725
And it is a factor in
homelessness, a lot of people
1260
01:03:52,759 --> 01:03:57,834
become homeless because
of their mental illness.
1261
01:03:58,075 --> 01:04:01,044
Alcohol, drugs can only
exacerbate the problem,
1262
01:04:01,078 --> 01:04:02,114
make it worse.
1263
01:04:02,148 --> 01:04:06,118
And that happens a lot.
1264
01:04:06,152 --> 01:04:09,742
A lot of people are undiagnosed
with mental illness.
1265
01:04:09,776 --> 01:04:12,089
There's a lot of people
are schizophrenic.
1266
01:04:12,849 --> 01:04:15,058
When you've got no fixed
abode, you've got no address,
1267
01:04:15,092 --> 01:04:16,714
how do you get
treatment from anyone?
1268
01:04:16,749 --> 01:04:19,269
How do you even sign
on with a doctor?
1269
01:04:21,581 --> 01:04:23,618
People would just be surviving,
1270
01:04:23,652 --> 01:04:26,000
and it just becomes
something you're known for,
1271
01:04:26,034 --> 01:04:30,659
you know, being paranoid
or being a bit crazy.
1272
01:04:30,694 --> 01:04:31,626
[tense music]
1273
01:04:31,660 --> 01:04:33,973
When we were looking
for the witnesses
1274
01:04:34,008 --> 01:04:36,389
to any of the cases,
they were concerned
1275
01:04:36,424 --> 01:04:38,667
that they were gonna
be safe from Kelly
1276
01:04:38,702 --> 01:04:40,117
if he wasn't locked up.
1277
01:04:41,222 --> 01:04:42,775
He was labelled Mad Kelly.
1278
01:04:42,809 --> 01:04:44,673
No doubt he deserved that from
1279
01:04:44,708 --> 01:04:47,262
what he'd done to people
and, and had been seen to do.
1280
01:04:47,297 --> 01:04:48,539
Quite a violent person.
1281
01:04:48,574 --> 01:04:50,541
[tense music]
1282
01:04:50,576 --> 01:04:54,960
Psycho Kelly or Mad Kelly
become his stage name
1283
01:04:54,994 --> 01:04:56,582
in so many ways.
1284
01:04:56,616 --> 01:04:59,688
I think he crafted
that stage name as well
1285
01:04:59,723 --> 01:05:03,692
in order to survive homelessness
1286
01:05:05,142 --> 01:05:08,456
and in order to get to the
top of the pecking order.
1287
01:05:10,147 --> 01:05:12,598
Kelly definitely
was a performer.
1288
01:05:12,632 --> 01:05:17,051
We see him performing in
so many areas of life.
1289
01:05:18,190 --> 01:05:21,400
His boss said he used
to do the Grand National
1290
01:05:21,434 --> 01:05:24,161
and football
commentating in the pub.
1291
01:05:24,196 --> 01:05:25,542
So he liked an audience.
1292
01:05:25,576 --> 01:05:27,509
He liked to be
having the crowd look
1293
01:05:27,544 --> 01:05:30,064
at him and to entertain them.
1294
01:05:30,098 --> 01:05:32,342
And I think that's
exactly what he was doing
1295
01:05:32,376 --> 01:05:34,413
on the streets with
his violence and rage.
1296
01:05:34,447 --> 01:05:38,003
He was getting his
audience, he was performing.
1297
01:05:38,693 --> 01:05:40,419
He was a performer.
1298
01:05:40,453 --> 01:05:42,697
I think that was
building up his ego.
1299
01:05:42,731 --> 01:05:45,389
He knows he's good at being
violent at scaring people,
1300
01:05:45,424 --> 01:05:49,359
and that is why he feeds
that into his performance.
1301
01:05:49,393 --> 01:05:52,776
And that's why he would
often release his rage
1302
01:05:52,810 --> 01:05:53,915
in front of people.
1303
01:05:53,950 --> 01:05:56,711
He wanted them Chinese
whispers to go around
1304
01:05:56,745 --> 01:05:59,265
that you don't miss
mess with Kieran Kelly.
1305
01:05:59,300 --> 01:06:00,611
[dramatic music]
1306
01:06:00,646 --> 01:06:03,373
He had so many strange quirks,
1307
01:06:03,407 --> 01:06:09,407
but basically put a drink
on him and he was violent,
1308
01:06:12,106 --> 01:06:14,004
violent to anybody around him.
1309
01:06:15,212 --> 01:06:17,732
And a killer.
1310
01:06:17,766 --> 01:06:20,597
[dramatic music]
1311
01:06:23,048 --> 01:06:26,154
You know the more serious
crimes happened post him
1312
01:06:26,189 --> 01:06:27,431
being sent to Broadmoor.
1313
01:06:28,812 --> 01:06:32,022
[car horns honking]
1314
01:06:34,438 --> 01:06:37,786
That become an addiction
for him, killing people, no?
1315
01:06:37,821 --> 01:06:38,995
If he started doing it
1316
01:06:39,029 --> 01:06:40,375
and he'd done it more than once
1317
01:06:40,410 --> 01:06:43,275
it become a drug, it
becomes a suppressant
1318
01:06:43,309 --> 01:06:44,621
for himself really.
1319
01:06:44,655 --> 01:06:48,038
So like anything you get
good at it, don't you?
1320
01:06:49,143 --> 01:06:52,801
And you'll learn how
to get away with it.
1321
01:06:52,836 --> 01:06:55,287
The main thing really
is don't tell anyone,
1322
01:06:55,321 --> 01:06:57,047
you'll get away with it, really.
1323
01:06:58,290 --> 01:07:00,809
[tense music]
1324
01:07:03,743 --> 01:07:07,402
There is an exception
to the chaotic nature
1325
01:07:07,437 --> 01:07:11,441
of Kelly's murders, and
that is Mickey Dunne.
1326
01:07:11,475 --> 01:07:16,653
With Mickey Dunne, this
seems much more thought out.
1327
01:07:16,687 --> 01:07:19,552
He says that he wanted
to kill him slowly.
1328
01:07:19,587 --> 01:07:22,141
And the difference here
is that Mickey Dunne
1329
01:07:22,176 --> 01:07:25,731
testified against him
on a different case.
1330
01:07:25,765 --> 01:07:27,595
[Ian] Mickey Dunne.
1331
01:07:27,629 --> 01:07:29,331
That's the same Mickey
Dunne that gave evidence
1332
01:07:29,355 --> 01:07:30,712
against you in that
other murder, isn't it?
1333
01:07:30,736 --> 01:07:32,255
The Toal murder.
- [Kelly] Yeah.
1334
01:07:32,289 --> 01:07:33,808
The story of Mickey Dunne,
1335
01:07:33,842 --> 01:07:35,810
again goes back to Toal.
1336
01:07:35,844 --> 01:07:40,263
The murder of Edward
Toal, one of the witnesses
1337
01:07:40,297 --> 01:07:43,059
who testified against
Kelly in the Old Bailey
1338
01:07:43,093 --> 01:07:44,093
was Mickey Dunne.
1339
01:07:47,132 --> 01:07:49,824
He said, Toal was
sleeping on his tombstone.
1340
01:07:50,825 --> 01:07:52,792
The trouble was it
was Kelly's tomb.
1341
01:07:55,105 --> 01:07:57,314
So, he went over to
him, took the rope
1342
01:07:57,349 --> 01:08:00,524
from round his trousers,
that he kept his trousers up
1343
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:05,322
and put it round Toal's
neck and garrotted him.
1344
01:08:06,496 --> 01:08:08,394
[Kelly breathing heavily]
1345
01:08:08,429 --> 01:08:12,364
As he walked away, another
one of the people there said,
1346
01:08:12,398 --> 01:08:14,297
"Oh, you might've
killed him, Kelly."
1347
01:08:15,746 --> 01:08:18,646
And Kelly went back and
garrotted him again.
1348
01:08:19,578 --> 01:08:22,339
And as he walked away, he
said, "I fucking have now."
1349
01:08:24,445 --> 01:08:27,275
[tense music]
1350
01:08:27,310 --> 01:08:29,381
But Kelly was acquitted
for on the murder charge
1351
01:08:29,415 --> 01:08:30,623
of Edward Toal.
1352
01:08:31,279 --> 01:08:33,385
Subsequently Kelly finds himself
1353
01:08:33,419 --> 01:08:34,765
in the company of Mickey Dunne.
1354
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,665
They're in a churchyard
in Balham drinking.
1355
01:08:37,699 --> 01:08:39,322
Kelly tells Ian Brown
1356
01:08:39,356 --> 01:08:42,187
and the other detective that
he had a score to settle
1357
01:08:42,221 --> 01:08:43,567
with Dunne.
1358
01:08:43,602 --> 01:08:44,751
He said, "Yeah, I got him."
1359
01:08:44,775 --> 01:08:46,743
I said, "How did that happen?"
1360
01:08:46,777 --> 01:08:50,091
He said, "I got
some white spirit
1361
01:08:51,092 --> 01:08:54,647
orange juice mixed
up a cocktail."
1362
01:08:56,546 --> 01:08:59,204
He had held him in a
skipper, pinned him down
1363
01:08:59,238 --> 01:09:03,173
and poured, a toxic
cocktail down his throat.
1364
01:09:04,623 --> 01:09:05,865
Did you know that the stuff
1365
01:09:05,900 --> 01:09:08,765
that you were giving Mickey
Dunne was gonna kill him then?
1366
01:09:08,799 --> 01:09:09,766
Or did you hope it would?
1367
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,008
You hoped that it would?
1368
01:09:11,043 --> 01:09:13,149
[Kelly] Yeah, I hoped it would.
1369
01:09:13,183 --> 01:09:14,529
I killed him slowly.
1370
01:09:14,564 --> 01:09:17,256
Didn't kill him there and then.
1371
01:09:17,291 --> 01:09:19,638
I gave him a few marks.
- A whack?
1372
01:09:19,672 --> 01:09:21,709
You cut his face with hits?
1373
01:09:21,743 --> 01:09:23,089
By hitting him?
1374
01:09:23,124 --> 01:09:24,056
Punching him?
1375
01:09:24,090 --> 01:09:25,091
[Kelly] Huh?
1376
01:09:25,126 --> 01:09:26,655
[Ian] What did you
use to cut him with?
1377
01:09:26,679 --> 01:09:28,519
[Kelly] I don't know,
like a fucking tin opener
1378
01:09:28,543 --> 01:09:30,062
or some fuck...
1379
01:09:32,168 --> 01:09:34,756
[Ian] Did you give him
a few whacks as well?
1380
01:09:34,791 --> 01:09:36,206
[Kelly] Yeah.
1381
01:09:36,241 --> 01:09:37,449
[Ian] When you say whacks
1382
01:09:37,483 --> 01:09:41,349
with your fists or give him
a few kicks or was he down?
1383
01:09:42,247 --> 01:09:44,697
[Kelly] He went
down, but he got up.
1384
01:09:46,803 --> 01:09:50,738
So, we checked that one out,
and sure enough, Mickey Dunne
1385
01:09:50,772 --> 01:09:54,431
had gone to a
shelter in Clapham.
1386
01:09:54,466 --> 01:09:57,607
He'd staggered in there
and immediately been rushed
1387
01:09:57,641 --> 01:10:02,232
to St. Thomas' Hospital,
where a day later he died
1388
01:10:02,267 --> 01:10:05,546
of what was on the
death certificate,
1389
01:10:05,580 --> 01:10:07,237
was sclerosis of the liver.
1390
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:12,484
But then an awful lot
of them died of that.
1391
01:10:13,450 --> 01:10:16,004
[tense music]
1392
01:10:16,039 --> 01:10:18,386
We don't see that
premeditation with any
1393
01:10:18,421 --> 01:10:19,663
of the other murders.
1394
01:10:19,698 --> 01:10:21,562
At least he doesn't
tell us any of that.
1395
01:10:21,596 --> 01:10:24,358
So, this is really
a bit of an anomaly
1396
01:10:24,392 --> 01:10:26,636
to how he usually does things.
1397
01:10:26,670 --> 01:10:29,190
You wouldn't want to
get on his bad side.
1398
01:10:29,225 --> 01:10:31,986
He could either snap and
kill you without meaning to,
1399
01:10:32,020 --> 01:10:35,023
or he could make that
conscious decision to kill you.
1400
01:10:35,058 --> 01:10:36,128
[tense music]
1401
01:10:36,162 --> 01:10:39,062
Kelly kept confessing to
more and more murders.
1402
01:10:39,096 --> 01:10:41,720
It's so and so, it was him.
1403
01:10:41,754 --> 01:10:44,205
It was them, I did it here.
1404
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:45,344
I did it there.
1405
01:10:45,379 --> 01:10:47,277
We were talking, is that it?
1406
01:10:47,312 --> 01:10:49,072
And suddenly he said, "Oh,
1407
01:10:49,106 --> 01:10:52,075
there's one in the skipper
on Clapham Common."
1408
01:10:52,109 --> 01:10:55,009
The skipper being
where they slept.
1409
01:10:55,043 --> 01:10:57,770
He said, "That was a
fires I set them alight."
1410
01:10:57,805 --> 01:10:58,599
[tense music]
1411
01:10:58,633 --> 01:11:00,083
"I watched them go up."
1412
01:11:04,467 --> 01:11:06,307
You said one burnt to death
somewhere, didn't you?
1413
01:11:06,331 --> 01:11:09,644
Or somebody was
burnt in a skipper.
1414
01:11:09,679 --> 01:11:11,991
[Kelly] We were the ones in
Clapham Common. [laughing]
1415
01:11:12,026 --> 01:11:12,958
[Ian] Clapham Common?
1416
01:11:12,992 --> 01:11:14,453
[Kelly] We were them
going up to cunts?
1417
01:11:14,477 --> 01:11:15,616
[Ian] Yeah?
1418
01:11:16,582 --> 01:11:20,345
- We were there when.
- Was that you?
1419
01:11:20,379 --> 01:11:22,381
- Huh?
- You're rubbing your hands?
1420
01:11:22,416 --> 01:11:23,796
Was that you?
- No no.
1421
01:11:24,763 --> 01:11:26,040
- Who was it?
- I don't know.
1422
01:11:26,074 --> 01:11:29,215
- You did it that?
- What? [laughing]
1423
01:11:29,250 --> 01:11:31,148
Well put them down
now, what's then
1424
01:11:31,183 --> 01:11:33,599
that's fucking 11 then.
1425
01:11:33,634 --> 01:11:35,221
[tense music]
1426
01:11:35,256 --> 01:11:39,018
And he just burst out laughing
and rubbed his hand said,
1427
01:11:39,053 --> 01:11:41,469
we said, "Well, was it you?"
1428
01:11:41,504 --> 01:11:42,505
"Oh, well put it down.
1429
01:11:42,539 --> 01:11:43,368
Put it down.
1430
01:11:43,402 --> 01:11:44,679
That's 11."
1431
01:11:45,646 --> 01:11:50,306
And you think, well, "What
the hell is going on?"
1432
01:11:51,548 --> 01:11:53,619
[tense music]
1433
01:11:53,654 --> 01:11:56,484
His audience, the
detectives are engaged,
1434
01:11:57,451 --> 01:11:59,211
he's got to 11 murders.
1435
01:11:59,245 --> 01:12:00,799
The more engaged they are,
1436
01:12:00,833 --> 01:12:03,215
the more he notches
that performance up.
1437
01:12:04,147 --> 01:12:05,745
[Ian] Kelly, have you done
anything else you want
1438
01:12:05,769 --> 01:12:07,115
to tell us about?
1439
01:12:07,150 --> 01:12:09,221
[Kelly] I forget now, honestly.
1440
01:12:10,291 --> 01:12:11,982
[Ian] Is there that many, Kelly?
1441
01:12:12,017 --> 01:12:15,054
[Kelly] There is boss,
but I'm doing the,
1442
01:12:15,089 --> 01:12:17,678
my brain has been mithered.
1443
01:12:17,712 --> 01:12:20,715
I don't murder, I don't
mean murdered but mithered.
1444
01:12:20,750 --> 01:12:22,165
[Ian] By alcohol?
1445
01:12:22,199 --> 01:12:24,650
[Kelly] Yeah, and I
go and deal with him-
1446
01:12:24,685 --> 01:12:26,318
[Ian] Well, you haven't had
a drink for a few days now.
1447
01:12:26,342 --> 01:12:28,447
[Kelly] I don't give a fuck.
1448
01:12:28,482 --> 01:12:30,449
[Ian] Now, when
you've had a drink
1449
01:12:30,484 --> 01:12:32,313
you don't give a
damn what you do?
1450
01:12:32,348 --> 01:12:33,452
[Kelly] Yeah.
1451
01:12:35,212 --> 01:12:37,491
Could he really have done
all these terrible things
1452
01:12:37,525 --> 01:12:38,492
that he claims?
1453
01:12:38,526 --> 01:12:39,803
Is it credible?
1454
01:12:39,838 --> 01:12:42,461
[tense music]
1455
01:12:43,497 --> 01:12:46,465
The impact of drinking
alcohol for a sustained
1456
01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:49,537
length of time at
such a high level,
1457
01:12:49,572 --> 01:12:52,195
certainly impacts the memory.
1458
01:12:52,229 --> 01:12:56,233
I think whether it's
a diagnosed psychosis
1459
01:12:56,268 --> 01:12:59,305
or the long-term
impact from that,
1460
01:12:59,340 --> 01:13:03,033
memory recall can
very much be impaired.
1461
01:13:03,068 --> 01:13:05,553
[tense music]
1462
01:13:09,177 --> 01:13:10,800
He'd stabbed somebody
in Bournemouth.
1463
01:13:10,834 --> 01:13:12,595
Well, that was never traced.
1464
01:13:12,629 --> 01:13:14,217
He then named another tramp
1465
01:13:14,251 --> 01:13:19,084
that he killed, and exactly
the right circumstances.
1466
01:13:19,118 --> 01:13:21,086
He'd hit him over
the head with a brick
1467
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:25,090
and he'd gone down to a
basement down some steps.
1468
01:13:25,124 --> 01:13:27,437
The autopsy on him
was accidental death
1469
01:13:27,472 --> 01:13:30,682
because he got wounds on
his head, but he was a drunk
1470
01:13:30,716 --> 01:13:32,477
and he'd fallen down the steps.
1471
01:13:33,547 --> 01:13:34,755
[recorder clicking]
1472
01:13:34,789 --> 01:13:37,378
Everybody's identities
are obscured,
1473
01:13:37,413 --> 01:13:39,104
and the police aren't
really interested
1474
01:13:39,138 --> 01:13:41,313
because you're off the
streets and you're in parks
1475
01:13:41,347 --> 01:13:43,522
and you're to your own group.
1476
01:13:43,557 --> 01:13:47,250
They're getting this kind
of like wandering confession
1477
01:13:47,284 --> 01:13:51,530
of murder from Kelly
that spans 30 years.
1478
01:13:51,565 --> 01:13:52,600
[tense music]
1479
01:13:52,635 --> 01:13:53,601
They never got investigated
1480
01:13:53,636 --> 01:13:56,501
'cause it's difficult
to investigate them.
1481
01:13:56,535 --> 01:13:58,123
They wouldn't be able
to classify them.
1482
01:13:58,157 --> 01:14:01,540
Like there wasn't like
scientific stuff like now.
1483
01:14:01,575 --> 01:14:05,130
You know, people used to rot
in them derelict buildings.
1484
01:14:05,164 --> 01:14:07,753
They'd die without violence.
1485
01:14:07,788 --> 01:14:11,792
You know, the rats
would start eating them.
1486
01:14:11,826 --> 01:14:13,345
People often did go missing
1487
01:14:13,379 --> 01:14:15,209
and they'd be never seen again.
1488
01:14:15,243 --> 01:14:18,143
They were lost into this
kind of street life.
1489
01:14:19,420 --> 01:14:20,490
[tense music]
1490
01:14:20,525 --> 01:14:23,113
Nearly everybody had
some sort of nickname
1491
01:14:23,148 --> 01:14:25,288
and a name like
Kelly's very common.
1492
01:14:25,322 --> 01:14:26,403
And if you are Keiran Kelly,
1493
01:14:26,427 --> 01:14:28,267
there's probably a couple
of dozen of them around,
1494
01:14:28,291 --> 01:14:29,775
so they'll have
to have a nickname
1495
01:14:29,810 --> 01:14:32,675
so you'd know which one
you're talking about.
1496
01:14:32,709 --> 01:14:33,824
When you live on the streets,
1497
01:14:33,848 --> 01:14:37,542
you've got to be in constant
fight or flight mode.
1498
01:14:37,576 --> 01:14:39,613
I'm either going to run
or I'm going to fight.
1499
01:14:39,647 --> 01:14:42,685
And Kelly was in
constant fight mode.
1500
01:14:42,719 --> 01:14:44,549
That was what worked for him.
1501
01:14:44,583 --> 01:14:48,414
That's what he saw as being
successful on the streets.
1502
01:14:50,347 --> 01:14:53,765
Kelly admitted all these
murders, all these victims.
1503
01:14:53,799 --> 01:14:55,180
We don't know how many he did.
1504
01:14:55,214 --> 01:14:57,147
I don't think he
knew how many he did.
1505
01:14:57,182 --> 01:14:59,011
He just kept throwing out names,
1506
01:14:59,046 --> 01:15:01,265
he walked off and didn't know
if they were alive or dead,
1507
01:15:01,289 --> 01:15:03,095
we just don't know how
many victims there were.
1508
01:15:03,119 --> 01:15:05,052
We definitely knew
there were two.
1509
01:15:05,086 --> 01:15:09,712
The whole object became
Let's just get him put away.
1510
01:15:09,746 --> 01:15:13,439
We need him convicted
and sent to prison.
1511
01:15:14,475 --> 01:15:16,581
He can't get out of two murders.
1512
01:15:16,615 --> 01:15:18,514
That's two life sentences.
1513
01:15:19,100 --> 01:15:20,274
And that'll do.
1514
01:15:21,344 --> 01:15:23,346
[tense music]
1515
01:15:23,380 --> 01:15:25,555
Why he got away
with it that long.
1516
01:15:28,385 --> 01:15:30,698
When you are actually
on the drugs and that,
1517
01:15:30,733 --> 01:15:32,562
yeah you're more vulnerable,
1518
01:15:32,597 --> 01:15:36,221
you are more susceptible
to everything.
1519
01:15:36,255 --> 01:15:39,535
Even though there's times
you're around other people,
1520
01:15:39,569 --> 01:15:40,777
you are alone.
1521
01:15:40,812 --> 01:15:42,158
You're very isolated.
1522
01:15:42,192 --> 01:15:45,644
You feel that, that's the most
prominent thing about being
1523
01:15:45,679 --> 01:15:47,612
on the streets, is
that loneliness.
1524
01:15:48,647 --> 01:15:52,582
And you are just trying to
survive by any means necessary.
1525
01:15:52,617 --> 01:15:55,551
You don't recognise the law
in the same way, do you?
1526
01:15:55,758 --> 01:15:57,725
You just recognise surviving.
1527
01:15:58,795 --> 01:16:02,592
That is a really natural
praying ground for people
1528
01:16:02,627 --> 01:16:04,456
that want to do
things like that.
1529
01:16:05,353 --> 01:16:07,735
[dramatic music]
1530
01:16:07,770 --> 01:16:11,567
Ultimately, we charged Kelly
with, obviously, the murder
1531
01:16:11,601 --> 01:16:16,572
in the cell, of William Boyd
and also the murder of Fisher.
1532
01:16:16,606 --> 01:16:20,679
McManus was the witness
to the murder in the cell,
1533
01:16:21,266 --> 01:16:24,510
and McManus was
out getting drunk,
1534
01:16:24,545 --> 01:16:28,307
and I actually gave
McManus two pounds a week
1535
01:16:28,342 --> 01:16:32,035
providing he came to the
police station on a Friday,
1536
01:16:32,484 --> 01:16:36,246
and for the whole time,
Kelly was awaiting trial.
1537
01:16:36,281 --> 01:16:40,043
He religiously came every
Friday for his two pound.
1538
01:16:41,182 --> 01:16:42,528
[dramatic orchestral music]
1539
01:16:42,563 --> 01:16:45,393
Kelly would come in and
we'd interview him again,
1540
01:16:46,498 --> 01:16:49,743
much more lucid, less alcohol
in his, his body then,
1541
01:16:49,777 --> 01:16:53,022
because he'd been in custody,
he admitted more cases
1542
01:16:53,056 --> 01:16:54,610
or gave us more facts
1543
01:16:54,644 --> 01:16:57,198
about the cases he'd
already told us about,
1544
01:16:57,233 --> 01:16:58,648
the murders he'd committed.
1545
01:16:58,683 --> 01:17:02,203
If I wanted to interview Kelly,
1546
01:17:02,238 --> 01:17:05,448
I would send a young
apprentice detective
1547
01:17:05,482 --> 01:17:08,554
to Brixton Prison to collect
Kelly and bring him back
1548
01:17:08,589 --> 01:17:11,557
for his interview, and then he
would be returned to Prison.
1549
01:17:11,592 --> 01:17:13,594
And the guy that I used for this
1550
01:17:13,629 --> 01:17:15,561
was a guy called Geoff Platt,
1551
01:17:16,459 --> 01:17:19,427
who actually started
all this going
1552
01:17:19,462 --> 01:17:21,360
by writing a book
1553
01:17:21,395 --> 01:17:24,778
called "The London
Underground Serial Killer".
1554
01:17:24,812 --> 01:17:26,434
[dramatic orchestral music]
1555
01:17:26,469 --> 01:17:28,609
Suddenly you are struck
that Keiran Patrick Kelly
1556
01:17:28,644 --> 01:17:30,611
is standing next to them,
he was seen by Policeman
1557
01:17:30,646 --> 01:17:32,440
at the scene next to the body.
1558
01:17:32,475 --> 01:17:35,823
"You start to think, Well, maybe
he is telling us the truth."
1559
01:17:37,791 --> 01:17:40,414
In the 1980s, you know,
when Kieran clearly says
1560
01:17:40,448 --> 01:17:42,796
he was killing people by
pushing him in front of trains,
1561
01:17:42,830 --> 01:17:45,488
you wouldn't have had
that CCTV coverage.
1562
01:17:45,522 --> 01:17:48,594
However very few London
underground stations
1563
01:17:48,629 --> 01:17:51,080
are what you would
call a remote location
1564
01:17:51,114 --> 01:17:53,358
where nobody's around
to see what happens.
1565
01:17:54,393 --> 01:17:56,430
Most of the London
underground stations
1566
01:17:56,464 --> 01:17:59,675
are busy right around the
clock, even late at night,
1567
01:17:59,709 --> 01:18:02,539
early in the morning, most
of the underground starts
1568
01:18:02,574 --> 01:18:05,611
about five a.m.,
finishes about midnight,
1569
01:18:06,405 --> 01:18:08,200
lots of witnesses around.
1570
01:18:08,235 --> 01:18:09,522
And there's also
underground, you know,
1571
01:18:09,546 --> 01:18:11,307
station staff around.
1572
01:18:11,341 --> 01:18:13,447
And there are, most
critical of all really,
1573
01:18:13,481 --> 01:18:17,106
are the Tube train drivers
who've gotta have, you know,
1574
01:18:17,140 --> 01:18:19,522
the best view possible of
the events taking place
1575
01:18:19,556 --> 01:18:20,419
in front of them.
1576
01:18:20,454 --> 01:18:22,076
And if they aren't
all saying, yeah,
1577
01:18:22,111 --> 01:18:25,010
somebody was pushed
in front of my train,
1578
01:18:26,046 --> 01:18:28,151
my argument is it didn't happen.
1579
01:18:31,189 --> 01:18:35,020
I mean, the Kelly Case
never hit the headlines,
1580
01:18:36,401 --> 01:18:40,577
most probably because
of who he was,
1581
01:18:40,612 --> 01:18:44,133
what he was and his victims,
1582
01:18:44,167 --> 01:18:47,757
because they were the
hidden society, if you like,
1583
01:18:48,654 --> 01:18:52,589
the people that people
didn't want to know existed.
1584
01:18:54,315 --> 01:18:58,043
It wasn't until the book came
out with an absolute load
1585
01:18:58,078 --> 01:19:03,048
of rubbish about how
the police had conspired
1586
01:19:03,083 --> 01:19:08,226
with the home office
to stop people knowing
1587
01:19:08,260 --> 01:19:10,193
about this man who
was running around
1588
01:19:10,228 --> 01:19:12,264
pushing people under trains.
1589
01:19:13,749 --> 01:19:15,578
The detail of it sounded
quite convincing,
1590
01:19:15,612 --> 01:19:18,098
I'm not quite sure why no
action was taken at the time?
1591
01:19:18,132 --> 01:19:20,007
[Speaker] They said at the
time apparently the detective
1592
01:19:20,031 --> 01:19:21,042
was told that it
was something to do
1593
01:19:21,066 --> 01:19:22,492
with the Home office not
wishing to spread panic.
1594
01:19:22,516 --> 01:19:23,735
But I do wonder if
its an investigation
1595
01:19:23,759 --> 01:19:25,346
you might consider
reopening then?
1596
01:19:25,381 --> 01:19:27,245
Well, first of all
that's an off reason.
1597
01:19:27,279 --> 01:19:29,119
I find that not very
persuasive if I am honest-
1598
01:19:29,143 --> 01:19:30,524
I just don't believe,
1599
01:19:30,558 --> 01:19:31,570
I can't say I don't
believe it I just find,
1600
01:19:31,594 --> 01:19:34,528
I'll take some persuading
about the reason.
1601
01:19:34,562 --> 01:19:37,220
[tense music]
1602
01:19:38,808 --> 01:19:41,431
I'm quite surprised that
this former police officer
1603
01:19:41,466 --> 01:19:42,812
who wrote the book
1604
01:19:42,847 --> 01:19:48,093
should take at face value
the confessions of Kelly,
1605
01:19:48,128 --> 01:19:49,992
because if it's done properly,
1606
01:19:50,026 --> 01:19:52,270
you should get that person
to go back and say, well,
1607
01:19:52,304 --> 01:19:53,236
who did you murder?
1608
01:19:53,271 --> 01:19:54,513
What exactly did you do?
1609
01:19:54,548 --> 01:19:55,583
When did it happen?
1610
01:19:55,618 --> 01:19:56,584
Where did it happen?
1611
01:19:56,619 --> 01:19:58,172
How did it happen?
1612
01:19:58,207 --> 01:20:00,174
I want detail, detail, detail.
1613
01:20:00,209 --> 01:20:02,211
I want absolutely
forensic detail.
1614
01:20:02,245 --> 01:20:04,523
In the case of
Kelly, he's vague.
1615
01:20:04,558 --> 01:20:08,424
He can't talk about specifics
and the devil is always
1616
01:20:08,458 --> 01:20:10,426
in the detail.
1617
01:20:10,460 --> 01:20:12,773
[tense music]
1618
01:20:12,808 --> 01:20:16,052
We went to the Old Bailey
and McManus turned up,
1619
01:20:16,087 --> 01:20:17,605
or we got him there.
1620
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:20,712
We had to clean him
up, put him in a suit,
1621
01:20:20,746 --> 01:20:22,196
make him presentable.
1622
01:20:22,852 --> 01:20:25,061
We thought he ought
to have a tie.
1623
01:20:27,063 --> 01:20:30,618
So, he actually wore that tie
1624
01:20:30,653 --> 01:20:33,345
to give evidence at the
old Bailey against Kelly.
1625
01:20:34,346 --> 01:20:36,486
Kelly appeared at the old
Bailey later that year,
1626
01:20:36,521 --> 01:20:38,419
first for the murder
of Hector Fisher,
1627
01:20:38,454 --> 01:20:40,766
where he is tried for murder
and convicted of murder.
1628
01:20:40,801 --> 01:20:42,182
Jury found him guilty.
1629
01:20:42,216 --> 01:20:44,494
And then a second trial,
which was for the murder
1630
01:20:44,529 --> 01:20:46,496
of William Boyd in
Clapham Police Station.
1631
01:20:46,531 --> 01:20:48,291
The jury couldn't
come to a decision,
1632
01:20:48,326 --> 01:20:52,261
so the judge gave them the
alternative of finding him guilty
1633
01:20:52,295 --> 01:20:54,297
of manslaughter, and
they returned a verdict
1634
01:20:54,332 --> 01:20:56,472
of guilty for manslaughter.
1635
01:20:56,506 --> 01:20:58,301
He was sent off to Brixton.
1636
01:20:59,337 --> 01:21:02,443
[tense music]
1637
01:21:02,478 --> 01:21:03,558
I'd heard about the murder
1638
01:21:03,582 --> 01:21:06,033
in the police station cell
as soon as it happened.
1639
01:21:06,068 --> 01:21:07,414
It was news in the paper.
1640
01:21:08,242 --> 01:21:10,348
The prison was locked
down, we had to go
1641
01:21:10,382 --> 01:21:13,040
to the gate because they
brought him to reception.
1642
01:21:13,799 --> 01:21:16,319
I went to the gate and we
brought in Kieran Kelly,
1643
01:21:16,354 --> 01:21:19,184
who had just been released
by the police from Clapham.
1644
01:21:20,082 --> 01:21:21,807
He was not an aggressive person.
1645
01:21:21,842 --> 01:21:24,810
He just came in and he wasn't
in handcuffs or anything,
1646
01:21:24,845 --> 01:21:26,467
he just walked in.
1647
01:21:27,089 --> 01:21:29,125
Just an ordinary little fella.
1648
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:30,540
He would just mingling.
1649
01:21:30,575 --> 01:21:32,128
You wouldn't even notice him.
1650
01:21:32,163 --> 01:21:34,061
He was just easy going.
1651
01:21:34,096 --> 01:21:36,443
The governor knew him,
having been in Brixton
1652
01:21:36,477 --> 01:21:38,134
many, many times.
1653
01:21:38,169 --> 01:21:40,481
Mainly drunk and
disorderly and things,
1654
01:21:40,516 --> 01:21:42,518
fights and things, whatever.
1655
01:21:42,552 --> 01:21:43,415
And the governor said to him,
1656
01:21:43,450 --> 01:21:46,039
"What the hell have
you been up to?"
1657
01:21:46,073 --> 01:21:47,109
He'd committed a murder.
1658
01:21:48,110 --> 01:21:51,113
So he would ultimately go
into the hospital wing.
1659
01:21:51,147 --> 01:21:53,425
They're all doctors there,
and they just assess him,
1660
01:21:53,460 --> 01:21:56,601
talk to them, and if
they had no problems,
1661
01:21:56,635 --> 01:21:58,534
they're located in the wing.
1662
01:21:58,568 --> 01:22:00,087
He'd be assessed on the wing
1663
01:22:00,122 --> 01:22:02,169
and he'd probably be kept
in one of the rooms of pads
1664
01:22:02,193 --> 01:22:04,574
that was just for safety
for the prison itself.
1665
01:22:06,576 --> 01:22:12,513
I think that in some ways
that the time of Kelly spent
1666
01:22:12,548 --> 01:22:17,553
in prison was most probably
the happiest of his life,
1667
01:22:17,794 --> 01:22:20,728
because he had
somewhere to live.
1668
01:22:20,763 --> 01:22:23,524
He wasn't drinking,
he was eating.
1669
01:22:23,559 --> 01:22:25,250
He had company.
1670
01:22:25,285 --> 01:22:28,046
[dramatic music]
1671
01:22:28,081 --> 01:22:29,427
Kelly was no fool.
1672
01:22:29,461 --> 01:22:30,359
He was devious.
1673
01:22:30,393 --> 01:22:33,120
He was cunning, but
he wasn't stupid.
1674
01:22:34,363 --> 01:22:35,536
They loved to be in Brixton
1675
01:22:35,571 --> 01:22:37,469
because they got
three meals a day,
1676
01:22:37,504 --> 01:22:40,541
and it was full board and they
didn't need to do anything.
1677
01:22:40,576 --> 01:22:41,646
[dramatic music]
1678
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:44,131
Kieran Kelly might've
been ready to go to prison
1679
01:22:44,166 --> 01:22:48,170
where he was guaranteed a bed
with a blanket every night
1680
01:22:48,204 --> 01:22:50,137
and three-square meals.
1681
01:22:50,172 --> 01:22:54,210
And that might've been
just all he all he wanted,
1682
01:22:55,487 --> 01:22:58,180
because there was no
real remorse in terms
1683
01:22:58,214 --> 01:23:00,354
of what Kelly was admitting to.
1684
01:23:01,528 --> 01:23:05,118
[gentle music]
1685
01:23:05,152 --> 01:23:08,328
Killers are usually motivated
by one of four things.
1686
01:23:08,362 --> 01:23:11,779
It could be anger, it could
be power, it could be lust,
1687
01:23:11,814 --> 01:23:13,816
or it could be financial.
1688
01:23:13,850 --> 01:23:16,370
And he's definitely
motivated by the anger,
1689
01:23:16,405 --> 01:23:18,407
and it's not just
any type of anger.
1690
01:23:18,441 --> 01:23:21,444
It's an extreme rage
that he has in him.
1691
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:26,449
So it doesn't take much
for that rage to erupt.
1692
01:23:26,484 --> 01:23:29,556
[ominous music]
1693
01:23:29,590 --> 01:23:32,352
In terms of the intermittent
explosive disorder,
1694
01:23:32,386 --> 01:23:35,355
I think that also explains
why he doesn't stay around
1695
01:23:35,389 --> 01:23:38,047
to see if his victims are dead.
1696
01:23:38,082 --> 01:23:40,670
His priority is to
get rid of his rage.
1697
01:23:40,705 --> 01:23:45,813
If someone happens to die
because of that, then so be it.
1698
01:23:45,848 --> 01:23:48,575
[ominous music]
1699
01:23:48,609 --> 01:23:51,543
We do know that certainly
in two instances
1700
01:23:51,578 --> 01:23:56,031
in the early 1980s,
Kieran Kelly was proven
1701
01:23:56,065 --> 01:23:59,620
to have pushed two
people onto train lines
1702
01:23:59,655 --> 01:24:02,037
of the London
Underground Network.
1703
01:24:03,210 --> 01:24:05,350
So, this is something
that Kieran Kelly did
1704
01:24:05,385 --> 01:24:06,765
and was proven to do.
1705
01:24:08,664 --> 01:24:11,736
He was out of sight, out
of mind, so to speak,
1706
01:24:11,770 --> 01:24:14,497
because of the subculture
in which he lived in.
1707
01:24:15,602 --> 01:24:19,295
He's working
underneath the radar
1708
01:24:19,330 --> 01:24:22,298
and getting away with
it for a very long time.
1709
01:24:22,333 --> 01:24:24,645
Both Kelly and his
victims were underground,
1710
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,096
and that is why it
did go on for so long.
1711
01:24:27,131 --> 01:24:31,307
There was no real
identity to these people.
1712
01:24:31,342 --> 01:24:33,102
They will have probably
not be in contact
1713
01:24:33,137 --> 01:24:37,348
with their families, not
have any kind of paper trail,
1714
01:24:37,382 --> 01:24:39,695
be lost to drugs, alcohol.
1715
01:24:41,214 --> 01:24:43,561
The whole case is underground.
1716
01:24:44,700 --> 01:24:47,185
[dramatic music]
1717
01:24:47,220 --> 01:24:49,153
There was a thing
called the Vagrancy Act.
1718
01:24:49,187 --> 01:24:53,640
Police could arrest you
for merely being homeless.
1719
01:24:53,674 --> 01:24:56,021
It was a different
policing environment then.
1720
01:24:56,056 --> 01:24:58,196
And, you know, they were
considered to be vagrants,
1721
01:24:58,231 --> 01:25:01,648
were considered to be, you
know, a very low form of life.
1722
01:25:02,787 --> 01:25:03,891
[dramatic music]
1723
01:25:03,926 --> 01:25:07,447
The social divide and
keeping yourself hidden,
1724
01:25:07,481 --> 01:25:10,553
was a lot more important
then, with the legal threat
1725
01:25:10,588 --> 01:25:14,557
of vagrancy and the
stigma attached,
1726
01:25:14,592 --> 01:25:18,458
people made themselves more
invisible in some ways, I think.
1727
01:25:20,115 --> 01:25:23,187
My view of homeless people
before I was homeless
1728
01:25:23,221 --> 01:25:24,291
was naive, no.
1729
01:25:24,326 --> 01:25:27,605
Oh, most of them
want to be there.
1730
01:25:27,639 --> 01:25:31,091
They put themselves there,
and they deserve it.
1731
01:25:31,126 --> 01:25:32,506
I didn't want to be there.
1732
01:25:32,541 --> 01:25:35,992
But I was just, I couldn't
think of, I knew as long
1733
01:25:36,027 --> 01:25:40,169
as I was an addict, that's
all that was important to me.
1734
01:25:40,204 --> 01:25:42,689
And the streets offers that.
1735
01:25:42,723 --> 01:25:46,693
It offers that you can just
focus all your resources
1736
01:25:46,727 --> 01:25:49,040
on just being an addict,
1737
01:25:49,074 --> 01:25:51,698
but then you just get trapped
in this vicious circle.
1738
01:25:53,217 --> 01:25:56,358
That time the psychology
was different.
1739
01:25:56,392 --> 01:25:59,430
We knew we were winos,
it was against the law.
1740
01:25:59,464 --> 01:26:01,121
Begging was against the law.
1741
01:26:01,156 --> 01:26:04,089
Everything was against
the law, sleeping rough.
1742
01:26:04,124 --> 01:26:08,024
So you, you just, there was
no other, you accepted it,
1743
01:26:08,059 --> 01:26:11,545
you didn't like it,
but that was the law.
1744
01:26:11,580 --> 01:26:14,134
Yeah I think there's
a lot more compassion
1745
01:26:14,169 --> 01:26:16,240
or understanding or
acceptance nowadays.
1746
01:26:17,379 --> 01:26:21,659
There's a lot more people, well,
1747
01:26:21,693 --> 01:26:24,800
the society is more
fractional, fractionalized.
1748
01:26:24,834 --> 01:26:30,254
So it's become more
accepted, I think, anyway.
1749
01:26:30,288 --> 01:26:32,566
I mean obviously
you still get sort
1750
01:26:32,601 --> 01:26:35,328
of an angry response
occasionally
1751
01:26:35,362 --> 01:26:39,711
or people will be
abrupt or abusive,
1752
01:26:39,746 --> 01:26:43,128
but I didn't find
that very often.
1753
01:26:43,163 --> 01:26:45,061
There's a lot more support,
1754
01:26:46,166 --> 01:26:49,273
consideration for
people's mental health.
1755
01:26:49,307 --> 01:26:53,587
You learn a lot of humility
being on the streets,
1756
01:26:53,622 --> 01:26:58,696
and you learn that you don't
need so much that alone,
1757
01:26:59,283 --> 01:27:01,354
that in itself is an addiction.
1758
01:27:01,388 --> 01:27:04,322
Just going out and buying
or you're trying to,
1759
01:27:04,357 --> 01:27:07,256
there's better ways to
fulfilling that emptiness
1760
01:27:07,291 --> 01:27:11,433
in your life and you
use them, you know.
1761
01:27:12,261 --> 01:27:14,746
[tense music]
1762
01:27:21,132 --> 01:27:22,720
This London underground network
1763
01:27:22,754 --> 01:27:25,205
was essentially a
killing field for Kelly,
1764
01:27:26,068 --> 01:27:28,173
the man who just murdered
somebody in the cells
1765
01:27:28,208 --> 01:27:30,590
and had now confessed
to a spree of murders
1766
01:27:30,624 --> 01:27:32,316
across 30 years,
1767
01:27:32,350 --> 01:27:34,594
this was something that
the police were forced
1768
01:27:34,628 --> 01:27:36,112
to take very seriously.
1769
01:27:36,596 --> 01:27:38,045
[tense music]
1770
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,566
When I heard about this
supposed serial killer,
1771
01:27:41,601 --> 01:27:44,604
the first thing that I thought
was, if he's a serial killer,
1772
01:27:44,638 --> 01:27:46,053
how come I've
never heard of him.
1773
01:27:46,088 --> 01:27:49,471
1983, I was at the
height of my career.
1774
01:27:49,505 --> 01:27:52,991
I thought to myself, there's
gotta be some mistake here.
1775
01:27:53,026 --> 01:27:54,786
You know if this really
1776
01:27:54,821 --> 01:27:57,755
was a serial killer
investigation,
1777
01:27:57,789 --> 01:27:59,584
it would've been
headlines everywhere.
1778
01:27:59,619 --> 01:28:01,621
And clearly it wasn't.
1779
01:28:01,655 --> 01:28:03,795
So there has to be
a reason for that.
1780
01:28:03,830 --> 01:28:06,488
[tense music]
1781
01:28:08,144 --> 01:28:11,803
When you're killing people
who no one cares about,
1782
01:28:11,838 --> 01:28:13,046
no one cares about them.
1783
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:17,119
So, there's no real need
to follow up or investigate
1784
01:28:17,153 --> 01:28:21,123
or respond and whether
it's a serial killer
1785
01:28:21,157 --> 01:28:24,126
or whether it's a
one-off, the coroner
1786
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:26,093
or whoever investigated a death
1787
01:28:26,128 --> 01:28:28,441
would've probably passed it
off as something as simple
1788
01:28:28,475 --> 01:28:30,788
as possible so it
wouldn't take up finances
1789
01:28:30,822 --> 01:28:34,067
or time or energy resources.
1790
01:28:34,101 --> 01:28:37,070
Yeah, it's disappointing,
isn't it really?
1791
01:28:37,104 --> 01:28:40,176
[dramatic orchestral music]
1792
01:28:40,211 --> 01:28:44,284
An unnamed anonymous
rough sleeper
1793
01:28:44,319 --> 01:28:46,735
is found dead
somewhere in London.
1794
01:28:48,599 --> 01:28:51,602
You're not gonna get
television crews descending
1795
01:28:51,636 --> 01:28:54,087
on the scene to find
out what happened.
1796
01:28:54,121 --> 01:28:55,754
They're just not, it's
just a fact of life.
1797
01:28:55,778 --> 01:28:58,229
There's no great
interest in that.
1798
01:28:58,263 --> 01:29:02,164
And I would say that it's
entirely possible that for a man
1799
01:29:02,198 --> 01:29:06,375
like Kieran Kelly
could, could have killed
1800
01:29:06,410 --> 01:29:09,482
more than once in his life.
1801
01:29:09,516 --> 01:29:12,519
[dramatic orchestral music]
1802
01:29:12,554 --> 01:29:14,556
How many murders
did Kelly commit?
1803
01:29:15,695 --> 01:29:17,041
Nobody really knows.
1804
01:29:17,075 --> 01:29:18,214
Nobody will ever know.
1805
01:29:20,182 --> 01:29:23,703
He died in 2001
in Durham Prison.
1806
01:29:23,737 --> 01:29:27,500
[dramatic orchestral music]
1807
01:29:29,294 --> 01:29:30,537
In the first interview,
1808
01:29:30,572 --> 01:29:34,783
we talked to Kelly about the
robbery from the old bloke up
1809
01:29:34,817 --> 01:29:40,064
in Clapham high street,
and Kelly had put his hand
1810
01:29:41,134 --> 01:29:45,069
under his tongue and pulled
out the ring and said,
1811
01:29:45,103 --> 01:29:46,760
"You better have that."
1812
01:29:46,795 --> 01:29:49,453
and laid it on the
table and gave it to me.
1813
01:29:50,626 --> 01:29:53,526
Two days later when
we interview Kelly,
1814
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:58,462
the third time he
demands the ring back.
1815
01:29:58,496 --> 01:30:01,534
I mean you were arrested
over the ring, weren't ya?
1816
01:30:01,568 --> 01:30:02,535
[Kelly] No.
1817
01:30:02,569 --> 01:30:04,029
[Ian] What were
arrested for originally?
1818
01:30:04,053 --> 01:30:05,123
[Kelly] Yeah.
1819
01:30:05,158 --> 01:30:08,506
[Ian] Right, so the ring
is an exhibit to show
1820
01:30:08,541 --> 01:30:10,266
why you got arrested.
1821
01:30:10,301 --> 01:30:11,371
All right.
1822
01:30:11,406 --> 01:30:13,442
It's for a court to decide
whether you stole it
1823
01:30:13,477 --> 01:30:14,650
or whether you didn't-
1824
01:30:14,685 --> 01:30:15,765
[Kelly] I'm pleading not
guilty to the whole lot.
1825
01:30:15,789 --> 01:30:17,239
[Ian] All right.
1826
01:30:17,273 --> 01:30:19,079
[Kelly] That's it, I'm
not guilty to this one.
1827
01:30:19,103 --> 01:30:20,622
So you can go now and chase,
1828
01:30:20,656 --> 01:30:22,555
chase all your- -
All right Kelly.
1829
01:30:22,589 --> 01:30:24,004
[Kelly] All right, that's it.
1830
01:30:24,039 --> 01:30:25,040
Sorry.
1831
01:30:25,074 --> 01:30:26,317
That's the way it stays.
1832
01:30:26,351 --> 01:30:29,113
You can chase, I am not guilty
to the murder in this cell.
1833
01:30:30,839 --> 01:30:32,219
- Because of the ring?
- What?
1834
01:30:32,254 --> 01:30:33,680
[Ian] Because we won't
give you the ring?
1835
01:30:33,704 --> 01:30:35,326
[Kelly] I am not
guilty to the murder
1836
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:36,741
of the man down in this cell.
1837
01:30:36,776 --> 01:30:37,742
[Ian] And you're saying that
1838
01:30:37,777 --> 01:30:40,020
because we won't
give you the ring?
1839
01:30:40,055 --> 01:30:42,540
[tense music]
1840
01:30:48,339 --> 01:30:53,171
The interview
concluded at 5:20 p.m.
1841
01:30:53,206 --> 01:30:55,760
Kelly returned to the
cells, tape switched off.
1842
01:30:58,314 --> 01:30:59,594
[Speaker] Identify Yourselves.
1843
01:30:59,626 --> 01:31:01,155
[Adams] Detective Chief
Superintendent Adams
1844
01:31:01,179 --> 01:31:03,319
in the presence of
Detective Inspector Brown.
1845
01:31:05,701 --> 01:31:08,497
[tape clicking]
1846
01:31:10,741 --> 01:31:13,398
[tense music]
1847
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:26,200
[tense music]
143909
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