All language subtitles for Sins.Of.The.Parents.The.Crumbley.Trials.2024-eng

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[operator] 9-1-1, what's the location
of your emergency?

[James] Okay, I'm... I'm not really sure.

I'm at my house. There's an active
shooter situation

going on at the high school.
My son goes to the high school

I have a missing gun at my house.

I think my son took the gun.

I don't know if it's him,
I don't know what's going on.

I am really freaking out.

[news reporter]
It's a groundbreaking case

that's resulted in four
counts of involuntary

manslaughter charges

against both James
and Jennifer Crumbley.

Authorities say the shooter
used a handgun.

His father had bought
just days earlier.

[news reporter 2] The first
parents in America

to be charged
in a school shooting.

[news reporter 3]
Parents of the shooter

at Oxford High School
who killed four students

and wounded others
in November 2021.

[Karen] There are very
rare circumstances

where gross negligence rises

to the level where you can be
charged with a serious crime.

This is one of them.

[reporter 1] Crumbley's defense

has said a conviction

would set a dangerous precedent

for unwitting parents.

[Marc] This case
is very different.

This is about parents

who largely ignored their son

neglected his cries for help,
and then bought him a gun.

[Karen] It really
was just common sense.

You don't get to walk away
from that. You just don't.

That's a criminal act.

My name is Jennifer Crumbley,
and I'm the defendant.

I felt as a family
where we were

the three of us
were really close.

We did a lot
of things together.

I joined the ski patrol because
the family can ski free.

Also to help people out.

So I got him into skiing
and he would come out

with me on my patrol shifts.

We did a lot of board games.

Every year around Thanksgiving

we would go cut
a Christmas tree down.

Halloween, we grew
our own pumpkins.

So we always carved
our own pumpkins

and had a whole bunch
put around the house.

The Crumbley's were
a middle-class family.

They vacationed together.
They worked.

[Jennifer ] I was
a marketing director

at a real estate
acquisition company.

My husband had a hard time
holding down a job.

He was doing DoorDash.

[Mariell] James
was a great father.

He spent time with his son.

No one is perfect, but James
did the best he could.

They spent a lot
of time together

especially during COVID.

Even the morning of the shooting
James drove his son to school

which was not abnormal.
That happened a lot.

There was a couple
of times where Ethan

had expressed anxiety.

Anxiety about what he was
going to do after high school.

But not to a level where
I felt he needed to go

see a psychiatrist or
a mental health professional.

As a parent, you spend
your whole life trying

to protect your child
from other dangers.

You never would think
you have to protect

your child from
harming somebody else.

[indistinct police
radio chatter]

[female operator] Shooter
situation at the Oxford School.

745 North Oxford road.

[indistinct chatter]

[David] The shooting
started about 12:50.

He went into a bathroom
with a backpack.

[Marc] He went into
the handicapped stall

and then he took a 9mm
out of his backpack.

He loaded it and he racked it.

[Edward] He comes out
of the bathroom

and immediately
to his left is a victim.

And he shoots her and then
her boyfriend was there.

He put his hand up
and shot him.

He then quickly turned
his gun to a group of four girls

that were just standing there.

He shot Hana St. Juliana

and she immediately
fell to the ground.

And I see someone dressed
in dark, oversized clothing.

They have the mask on.

A hat, glasses and a hood.

And I lock eyes with them.

I realize he's raising
a gun to me.

[Edward] He then goes
around the hallway.

He might have reloaded his gun.

Like if you were at
a gun range and practicing.

Ethan then came into closer view
and I could tell it was Ethan.

I said, buddy, are you okay?
What's going on?

And when he didn't respond
to me and he looked away

that's when I knew it was him.

That he was the shooter.

[Edward] And then he continues
on down the hallway

and stops at the bathroom
where Justin was killed.

[Keegan] I went to the stall,
I squatted on the toilet

so he couldn't see my feet.

It was quiet for a second
and then I heard a shot.

[woman 1] What did you see when
you came out of the stall?

[Keegan] Justin's body
in a pool of blood.

Tonight, the scene
tragically too familiar.

Armed officers racing
into school in lockdown.

Bloodshed. Terrified children
running for their lives.

[reporter 2] This time
at Oxford High School

some 40 miles north of Detroit.

[reporter 3] Oxford High School
shooting in Michigan

that left four students dead
and seven others injured.

[Deputy] Deputies responded
within five minutes

had the suspect in custody.

He gave the weapon up.

He did have the weapon
on him at the time.

It was a semi-automatic handgun.

I am charging the young man

who took the gun
into that school and shot

Hana St. Juliana, age 14,

a volleyball player
and a basketball player

and her father asked me
to tell you that she was

one of the happiest
and most joyful kids.

Madisyn Baldwin, age 17,

a talented artist
and big sister.

Justin Shilling,

co-captain of the Oxford
bowling team and a golfer.

Tate Myre, a junior football
player, an honor student.

Mr. Myre asked me
when I spoke to him if I had children

and I said that I did
and that I would treat this case

like these are my own children.

[Karen] The shooting took
place on a Tuesday.

They presented the case
the next morning on the shooter.

[David] Then over the period
of Wednesday into Thursday

we received more
information about

what had happened
leading up to the shooting.

We knew that James Crumbley
called 911 and told 911 operator

that he thinks his son
was the shooter.

[David] We learned
that he'd written a journal

and he talked
about wanting a gun.

Trying to get his parents
to get him a gun.

Everything else we learned
just made it worse.

November the 26th,
they walked up to the counter

and the dad said,
that's the gun I'm going to buy.

And he paid in cash.
They bought it.

They waited for the background
check to clear.

Eventually did,
and they walked out.

His post and I think
it was to Instagram,

and it says, "Got my
new beauty today."

[Marc] And the next day,
the 27th, they're at the range.

He shows his mom how to use it.

There was a teacher who found
him researching ammunition.

So then that person left

a voicemail
for Jennifer Crumbley.

[School official] I'm calling from
Oxford High School.

One of his teachers had sent
an email to the office,

said that she was concerned.

He was on his phone
looking at bullets.

[Marc] And that's when
Jennifer Crumbley

texted her son.

[Marc] He turned in
a, a math homework

with a very disturbing
drawings and words on it.

[David] The counselor
texted the drawings

to the shooter's parents.

[Marc] They called
the parents and said

we need you to come in.

At first, Jennifer Crumbley
said she can't.

And she said, have you
called my husband?

And we now have evidence

to show that they were
communicating with each other.

Eventually they both came in.

The school counselor
told them that I think

you need to get him services
and take him home.

And both Jennifer Crumbley
and James Crumbley

said they couldn't do it.

Neither one of them
at any point said

that you bought him
a gun four days ago.

They're being told
by a school counselor,

he's saying this
is suicidal ideation.

And they do nothing.

They do less than nothing.
They don't look for the gun.

[man over radio] There are
requesting medical assistance.

Multiple injuries. Possible...

One of the first questions
that Karen asked was

where did he get the gun?

And that's when the focus
turned to the parents.

[Karen] As soon as I heard
that they were

called to the school that day

the messages about,
LOL, don't get caught

those were very, very
concerning to me.

And so when they presented
the case on the shooter

I addressed that.

What about the parents?

[reporter 4] Oakland County
Prosecutor, Karen McDonald

announcing charges against
the parents of the 15-year-old

charged in this week's
deadly school shooting.

The facts of this
case are so egregious.

The notion that a parent
could read those words

and also know that their son
had access to a deadly weapon

that they gave him

is unconscionable
and I think it's criminal.

Thank you.

[Marc] We were in communications
with the sheriff's office

and then they went
to go pick 'em up

and they couldn't find 'em.

So that's when
things really blew up.

That was national
news that whole night.

Do you know where the shooter's
parents are right now?

I do not. I'm...

I'm being briefed on any kind
of update but no, I don't.

[reporter 5] They were scheduled
to surrender to authorities

at 2:00 p.m. local time
Friday, but did not appear.

[reporter 6] US Marshals
late Friday night

put up wanted posters.

We're now offering
a $10,000 reward.

[David] That really wound up

becoming a real sideshow.

[reporter 7] Authorities
say the couple

skipped their arraignment

sparking a manhunt.

[Karen] They went on a run
and drove 40 miles south

downtown Detroit

at a friend's art studio
in a warehouse.

[operator 2] 911, what is the
address of the emergency?

[informer] The parents of the shooter

that are running away...
they're here.

It's their car and the woman is here.

[David] And I believe it
was after midnight

when the parents were
captured hiding out in Detroit.

[officer] On your stomach.

Get on your fucking stomach.

[officer 1] We have, in fact,
taken into custody

without incident James
and Jennifer Crumbley,

the fugitives involved
in the Oxford incident.

[Karen] Hey, um...

Hey, Kate?

Kate? I really need, like, quiet
until I get through this brief.

[assistant] Would you run across
from Marc...

[Karen] Everyone thinks that
being a prosecutor is exciting

because, you know,
they see the shows.

But the thing that really
intrigued me about it was

standing up for people
who were vulnerable

and that couldn't represent
or advocate for themselves,

who had been victims of crime.

I was a public school
teacher for three years

and then decided
to pursue a law degree.

I was an assistant prosecutor
in this very building

and I would walk in here every
day, about 25 years ago

never imagining
someday I'd be walking in

with my name on the door.

[man 2] Good luck, sir.
Let me know if anything.

-We're gonna let David, um...
-[man 2] Sorry.

We're gonna let
David do the work

and then you can
film Marc and I.

Did somebody leave
this on your desk?

Because, like,
what's the message here?

Did you get one of these?

It's like a stress ball.

I've been an
attorney for 16 years.

I've been here for 15.

And I went to law
school to be a prosecutor.

[David] You're coming in
at a time when...

Karen and I have been in
office now for about 18 months.

When I joined the office

I spent a lot of time
thinking about

the problems
we might encounter.

And it never occurred to me

that one of them would
be a school shooting.

[Marc] I do remember
vividly at one point

we were all at the media room,
and Karen said

I want everyone
to go around the room

to give their opinion.

But I'm telling you right now,
we're charging the parents.

And then she walked out.

[interviewer 1] Did you even know...
that nothing like that

had ever been done before?

No. No.

But certainly understood
the extraordinary set of facts.

I know, I know we have
a legal duty as parents

to protect other people
from our dangerous kids.

[Karen] Okay. Come here.

It's okay. Sit. Sit, sit, sit.

Josie, chill. It's okay.

Did you read that?

It wasn't earth-shattering.

There'll be more
and more of them.

[Karen] Mm-hmm.

The amount of attention
and significance of it.

Everyone talking about
what a message it sends.

And I know that it
does send a message.

I absolutely get that.

Oh, here it is.

It wasn't a motivator.

It really was just
common sense.

This is your lunch.

-[Jeffrey] Right.
-Do you need it?

-[Jeffrey] Yeah.
-Will you eat it? Okay.

I actually do make him a salad.

And about 50% of the
time, he leaves it at home.

-So that's highly...
-[Jeffrey] We get at least 50%.

It's highly frustrating to me.

Oh, thank you.

Alright. See you. Alright.

Okay. Bye. Love you.

-Okay. Have a good day.
-Thank you. You too.

Good girl. Good to see you.

[Karen] There are many
issues and motions

that has to be
decided by the court.

Then we're also simultaneously
prepping for trial,

which is a giant task.

I think it's powerful when
he takes the stance in the hallway

and takes aim prior to shooting.

I think that that image
for people of his actions

it doesn't have to show what--

Well, actually, I think
it's also to show

that he was experienced
with a firearm.

And he was
experienced with a firearm

because the only thing
his parents did with him

took him to a shooting range.

[Marc] We could even
splice that video in

with the shooting range video.

-It's the same stance.
-Right. Right.

[Karen] He doesn't look like
he's some kid with a gun.

-Do you guys think?
-[Marc] No.

I think he looks like he
knows what he's doing

just doing what he was taught.

[interviewer 1] You've kind of hinted
a couple of times

that you have
a really strong case...

maybe stronger than
people know publicly.

When you get down
to the actual elements,

their big defense has been

that they locked their weapon.

[Karen] Well, first they went
to the substation

and they were asked at least
two or three times

where the weapon was

and they never
said it was locked.

[interrogator] That was your gun?

[James] It was hidden in our armoire
in the case.

They said it was hidden
under some clothing

in an armoire.

And she also lies.

In the back of the police car,
she says,

we had no notice.

He was a perfect kid.
He's never been in trouble.

He gave us no issues whatsoever.

He's never been in trouble.
He's never done anything.

He's never done anything wrong.
He's a good kid.

[man 3] Right.

Why are you lying about that?

Why are you
trying to cover it up?

And the reason you
were trying to cover it up

is because you did know,
you did have signs

and you took him
to the gun range.

[Karen] I spent almost
a whole weekend

reviewing the Facebook messages

between James and Jennifer
for the last two years.

And that was not easy,
I'll tell you that

because those people are yikes.

The life they lived
was just crazy.

Like, just completely
completely consumed

with the highs and lows
of the relationship

and then, like, the sexting
and the really terrible things

they'd, like,
video of their sexual acts.

[David] Early on, it came out

that Jennifer Crumbley
was having an affair.

We felt it was
potentially relevant

because it showed how
she was spending her time

instead of taking
care of her son.

And you see what
her priorities were

how much money
they spent on their horses

and these are people who,
like, money was tight.

They had serious
drinking habits.

And she bought a horse
while drunk for $5,000.

They wound up with two horses

so that was a very
expensive hobby.

[Karen] It's a very toxic,
turbulent relationship

but none of it was
about their son.

Like, none of it.

[David] Everyone knows there's
a ton of information here.

The text messages alone,

depending on which
thread you're looking at

you know, are over 5,000 pages.

And, you know, this is still

months and months
out from trial.

Right.

He had in his backpack,

I don't know maybe 50,

60 individual sheets of paper.

Really?

Yes. And, in fact, there's
one where it says

he specifically says,

I can't wait till Tuesday.

[Marc] We are all
under the assumption

that that math test on the 30th

was his final leakage
or plea for help

but it looks like he's been
doing it for a while.

[Marc] When you speak
with an expert

in the area of mass shootings

and school
shootings in particular

there's this concept
of leakage.

That's when an individual
who's already decided

that they're going
to commit this act,

they're basically,
they're giving, you know

a window into their plans.

He was manifesting many,
many issues for a long time.

There's leakage in text
messages to mom and dad,

into his friend.

[Karen] Okay. Tell me
what happened at the...

Did you have a meeting or...

[Marc] We talked about
the paper from the backpack.

Right, but we don't have any
evidence that they saw that.

No, we don't have any
evidence that they saw that.

We don't know who saw it.

We don't even know
if it was ever turned in.

It bolsters their argument
that it was the school

not the parents,
because we don't know.

We just don't know
who saw it or who didn't.

I mean, I think
we need to find out...

We need to find out when
these assignments were given

because if he has been
making these drawings for weeks

it's just more evidence
of had you paid any attention.

[Karen] Okay, just pushing
back on that

and being the only one
of us here

that has parented teenagers...

[Marc] I know you're not looking
through a backpack.

You're never looking
through a backpack.

[Marc] I know that. I know that.

[David] There's a belief
that a shooter just snaps

and that's just not true.

There are always signs

and there are always
things that lead up to it.

There's been a lot of talk
about the bird video

which I've seen it now,
I guess, twice.

It's not easy to look at.

The defendant, he's got tongs,
and he's got the baby bird

and he dips it in water
and then he proceeds to take

like, a screwdriver

and try to jam it
into the bird's leg

and see if he can tear it off.

While he's doing that,
he's got this kind of cooing voice.

He's like, Hey, buddy,
you got a boo-boo on your leg?

After he just tried to, like,
break the bird's leg off.

And we know he'd done
it before when he

when he... decapitated a bird
and then put it in a jar

and then took it to school.

In his journal

he talked about wanting
to see people suffer.

And, yeah, a lot of
people are suffering.

Also, if he feels remorse,

you would think that
seeing what he did

would elicit some
emotional response.

But it has not.

[Mariell] I think that
if somebody

is made out to be a bad parent,

then their behavior
can be contorted

into criminal behavior.

Maybe a parent that
doesn't see the signs,

a parent that doesn't know

that their child is struggling
with something.

I think that

James Crumbley was

made out to be someone
that he's not.

The morning of the shooting,

he was a sophomore
in high school's father.

By 1:30 that afternoon,

he was the father
of a school shooter.

And by December 3rd,
he was a monster.

And I think that that,
that theme carried

throughout the prosecution
in this case.

[♪ soft instrumental
music playing]

[woman] All rise. Oakland County
Court is now in session.

The Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews
presiding.

[judge] Can you both raise
your right hand?

Do you swear or affirm
the testimony

you're about to give
will be the truth,

so help you, God?

[Jennifer and James] Yes

[Shannon]
Your Honor, if I may,

the other, the concern we have

is we just found out

you know, two or three days ago,

that, uh, Ethan Crumbley's trial

was moved to January.

-And--
-[judge] Yes, why do I care?

Because we need him
as a witness in this trial.

This is not about the defendants

wanting to throw
their son under the bus

or make him look bad.

This is about our clients

defending the case.

-[judge] I understand. I do.
-Okay.

[Marc] The judge granted
our request

and denied their request
about the hearsay.

Things about the journal,
uh, the text messages

between the shooter
and his friend,

those are huge for us.

The thing that really
we didn't expect today

at least was that
these defendants

want to put
their son on the stand

to excuse their own liability.

So, what I would like to do now

is talk about next steps.

She put on the record

they're gonna
call their own son.

I just keep thinking

how that might feel to a parent

whose kid was injured
or was in that school

or was killed.

Because you know what
they're gonna ask now?

The logical question
they're gonna ask is,

"Oh, are you gonna
give him a deal

to testify against his parents?"

[Kelly] Parents of injured
or deceased victims

are gonna love, I wanna hear

from the kid who killed my kid.

I wanna hear what he has...

-I mean, they want...
-[David] It's hard to know.

It's hard to know.
Some of them may react like,

great, put that [no audio]
on the stand, right?

What could he possibly say
that would weaken our case?

-[man 5] Right.
-[Washington] Well, I just don't

think we can make
any assumptions

about how he's gonna testify

once he takes the stand.

He hasn't seen his parents.

He hasn't talked to his parents.

We don't know
what that first reaction

is gonna be
when he sees his parents

for the first time on the stand

if he were to testify

and how that's gonna look.

So I think it would be

a little presumptuous

for us to say that it won't have

a negative impact.
We don't know.

[♪ soft instrumental
music playing]

[insects chittering]

[David] Everyone
who's raised children

sometimes thinks I am

a less than perfect parent.

They think, you know,
on my worst day,

if someone were to capture me,

I might not look
that great either.

Am I gonna wind up on trial?

-[David] Hey, Benj.
-[Benj] Hey. Good to see you.

-How are you?
-[Benj] Doing well.

[David] And what's different
about this

is the decisions they made,

both about what not to do,

but what they affirmatively did.

-Eat dinner?
-Yeah, I got some pizza.

-Good to see you.
-Oh, good to see you.

[David] When I read

the shooter's journal,

you can see that, um,

he believed that he needed help.

Where's your sister?

[David] The opposite
of love is not hate.

It's just being ignored.

[interviewer 1] First, I just wanted
to ask you...

if you could tell me
your first and last name?

[Steve] Steve St. Juliana.

Father of one of the victims.

[interviewer 1] And how would you describe
who you are right now?

[exhales] Who am I right now?

Um... I'm a fraction
of who I used to be.

This would be
the easiest way to say it.

[♪ poignant music playing]

This corner just has some
of Hana's favorite things,

stuffed animals and that,
that I, that we got for her.

Well, some of the bracelets...

um, that they did for
the girls' lacrosse team,

created pictures there
of her in...

volleyball and basketball.

[Reina]
This will eternally be up

because Hana loved Christmas

and this is a tree
that we decorated...

now last year...

right after Thanksgiving,
we put it up.

-Yeah.
-[Steve] Before the shooting.

[Reina] I don't wanna decorate
a tree without her.

So, I like it just the way it is.

Yeah. I mean,
there's so many things

that bring back memories

and you just never know how hard

one's gonna hit you
versus another.

[Steve] I believe
what the prosecutor

is trying to accomplish

in prosecuting the parents

is absolutely the right thing.

My only concern, really,

is that because of that effort,

there isn't much attention

being put onto the school

from the prosecutor's office.

[Ven] What's missing from
the criminal end of things

is the accountability
of the school.

My name is Ven Johnson.

I am the president of
Ven Johnson Law, PLC

and we are
the plaintiff attorneys

on behalf of a number
of families.

I'm Meghan Gregory.
I am the mom of Keegan Gregory

who was in the school that day.

I'm Craig Shilling.

I'm the father
of Justin Shilling,

one of the victims
from that day.

[Meghan] When the police
dropped him off,

they said to us...

"Your son has witnessed things
that we've never witnessed

in our 20-some years
of being police."

I had reached out to Craig
the night of the shooting...

and just, I didn't know Craig,

but I sent him a text
and just said...

"I just want you to know

"your son was not alone
in the bathroom.

"My son was there.

"And I'm sure there's
a lot of questions

and since he's the only one
that can answer them,"

you know, "when the time's
right, please reach out."

You know, it gave us
some comfort

knowing that,
you know, he wasn't,

you know, that Justin was there
with somebody else.

But, you know...

we're still looking for answers.

Our entire situation

is full accountability.

Who are the ones in positions

to help prevent all of this?

Shooter and parents?
Absolutely.

ut so were multiple people
in the school district.

And when you hear
what was going on

in that home,

I can't feel sorry
for the shooter...

but he was
in a shit environment...

clearly.

[Meghan] If my child was saying
he was seeing things

or hearing voices,

I would immediately
be at the hospital with my child.

And I think there's a difference
of bad parenting

and gross negligence, right?

I mean, that was neglect
on that child.

[interviewer 1] Is there anything
that you can tell me

about the loss of your son?

I mean, uh...

it's a very large... hole.

My life is nowadays it's, um...

it's ridiculous.

Families take it pretty hard.

There's a big, huge hole in it.

You know, I'm looking at...

you know,
trying to build a bridge

across the hole
so I can at least

get to the other side.

But, you know,
that's a long process.

[interviewer 1] What does justice
look like for you?

My son asked me,
"Why does this happen?"

I don't know.

So, this pursuit of justice

is, uh... necessary

to answer that question
for him...

not just for me.

But it's also necessary for...

you know, the parents
of all of these

and all the other
mass shootings.

And, you know, accountability
isn't just a word.

I mean, this is... This is life.

[♪ solemn music playing]

[Karen] Every court date
that is set,

every piece of news,

every event that goes on,
in this case,

it has a serious
emotional effect

on so many people.

-[man 6] Good morning.
-[woman] Hi.

-Hi, how are you?
-[woman] I'm good, how are you?

Oh, I didn't realize
you guys were all here.

Nothing like him in the...

[Marc] There's
a mask requirement for...

-Oh, there is?
-Yeah.

-Do you have one?
-Um...

I did not realize that.

-Yeah.
-Thank you.

Okay.

[indistinct]

[person 1] I don't think
I'm going to the courtroom.

-It's not the courthouse, right?
-Yeah.

Okay.

[Paulette] We filed a notice
asserting the defense

of insanity on
January 27th of 2022.

At this time,
we are withdrawing that notice,

and we'll be proceeding
with a guilty plea.

Is it true that the firearm
that you used

on November the 30th
was purchased

on November the 26th, 2021

by your father, James Crumbley?

Yes.

Is it true that you asked him

to buy that firearm?

-Yes.
-Is it true

that you gave him
your own money

to buy that firearm?

Yes.

Is it true that you picked
that gun out to buy?

Yes.

Is it true that
on November 30th, 2021,

that 9-mm handgun that you used
in Oxford High School

was not kept in a safe
or locked container?

Yes, it was not locked.

[Marc] People are satisfied.

[Karen] Their big defense was,
"We secured the gun."

Well, their son pled
and gave testimony

during that plea
that the gun wasn't locked,

and that actually it was
his money that they purcha...

It was actually his.

So, they don't have that
to argue anymore,

so that's significant.

[man 8] The court understands
that there are several

identified victims that may
wish to speak in this case.

Could you please
tell me your name?

[Reina]
Um, I'm Reina St. Juliana.

[man 8] Thank you. And is there
a statement you wish

to share with the court
this morning?

[Reina] Uh, yes.

The empty seat
at the dining table

is the loudest silence
I have ever heard.

We were going to be
the best duo

on the lacrosse field.

Instead of speaking
at her wedding,

I spoke at her funeral.

Instead of fishtailing
her hair for a game,

I curled her hair in a casket.

It doesn't matter if I go to
her room to steal her clothes,

show her an outfit,
or ask for advice.

I am met with silence
and darkness.

[♪ poignant music playing]

[man 9] Um, so since we're here

and this is a way
to visualize it...

if you look at putting
the memorial maples

along the road here...

[Steve] We started, as a family,
thinking of different ideas

and also come up
with the idea of a garden.

Because that's Hana's name.

Yeah, because Hana's name
means flower in Japanese.

[Reina] I mean,
I think it really

captures Hana, like...

really well.
I think it kind of...

it's gonna bring
people together.

And...

I don't know,
I guess just looking

at this design,

it, like, makes you happy,

which, I mean, she had
a special talent of doing.

It's making everyone happy,
so I'm not crying, but...

Yeah, I think it's really nice
because...

it's something that like
we get to have a say in.

And I guess it really
means a lot to everyone.

[Karen] Okay, I really don't
remember

the briefing
on what's happening.

-[woman] For the march today?
-Mm-hmm.

[woman] So there is
national day of action

for March for Our Lives
across the nation.

-Okay, now I know that.
-Yeah.

-I mean, just logistically.
-Logistically.

The first part will be speakers.

And then the plan
is to start marching

at 10:30 to Oxford.

[Karen] I have not attended
any protests

or announcements
about gun legislation,

but this march I think
is really important

because those are students.

I'm not gonna tell them no.

[all cheering]

My little sister, Hana,
was one of the four

killed on November 30th
at Oxford High School.

People are killers
as much as guns

are enablers for those killings.

My sister died because
of the bullets in her body.

I am calling on all of you
to take action and demand

that your
political representatives,

regardless of party affiliation,

immediately take significant
and meaningful action

to make changes
necessary to protect us all.

[Karen]
It's a responsibility, I feel,

to contribute to

a solution that

weighs heavily on me.

Protect our kids, not our guns.

Thank you.

[all cheering]

[Karen]
A lot of people own guns.

I think they have
a right to own guns.

I grew up in a house where,

you know, my dad owned guns.

[all chanting]
Protect our schools.

[Karen] But owning a gun

and gifting it to a minor

and leaving it in a way
that is so accessible

and so grossly negligent.

[all chanting] No more violence!
Ban gun violence.

It's just, to me,
it's just common sense.

[♪ soft instrumental
music playing]

[reporter 8] This morning,
opening arguments expected

in an unprecedented trial.

Jennifer Crumbley
facing four counts

of involuntary manslaughter
for her alleged role

in the 2021
Michigan school shooting

carried out by her son.

-Good morning.
-[woman] Good morning.

[Karen] Anybody who does
this for a living,

if you're walking
in the courtroom,

and you're feeling great,

there is something really wrong.

This is terrible,
this is torture.

This is I can't eat, sleep,

I think I might throw up
awfulness.

[indistinct chatter]

-Hi. I'm gonna need a minute.
-[man 12] Yes.

[Karen] Okay, thank you.

[indistinct chatter]

[Marshal] All rise. The Sixth Circuit
Court for the County of Oakland

is now in session.

The Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews
presiding.

Morning. You may be seated.

We're all here.

[Shannon] You okay?

[Marc] Good morning, everybody.

I want to introduce you
to Hana St. Juliana...

Madisyn Baldwin...

Tate Myre...

and Justin Shilling.

They died on November
the 30th of 2021.

We're here because

when Jennifer looked
at this drawing...

she didn't look at it
the way a stranger would.

She looked at it knowing
the context and the origin.

And when someone with that kind
of information looks at this...

the unimaginable
becomes predictable.

It becomes
reasonably foreseeable.

On my way to court today,

I blasted Taylor Swift

to warm up my voice
and calm my nerves.

And there was a line
in one of her songs

that... summarized
what this case is about.

Band-Aids
don't stop bullet holes.

And that's what
this case is about.

It's about the prosecution
attempting

to put a Band-Aid...

on problems that can't be fixed
with a Band-Aid.

[♪ instrumental music playing]

[Judge] Do you swear or affirm
the testimony you're about to give

is the truth, so help you God?

-Yes, I do.
-Yes, ma'am.

[Brett] I do.

This is the 9-millimeter pistol

that was used
in the school shooting.

I locked eyes.
He didn't hesitate.

[Marc] That's you at the top
of the screen?

Yes.

[Kristy] That's when right there

is when I know it's Tate.

[man 14] I'm gonna show you
a portion

of that text message thread.

Okay.

Tell us what he wrote.

[Edward] That I'm asking
to go to the doctor.

Then he says, my mom
laughed when I told her.

What is the moment that
you're gonna point to a jury

and say, that's the moment
of gross negligence?

The day of the shooting,
the moment they're in the office,

with their son, and being shown
this drawing that he made,

and they didn't say anything.

"Blood everywhere.
The thoughts won't stop."

"Help me."

And then making a decision

once a counselor tells you,

"We think he needs
to get some help.

Here are some names."

We can't.

[Marc] Now, describe
Jennifer Crumbley's demeanor

when she walked
into your office.

She sat down in the chair.

Um...

Felt a little bit distant.

It felt like it was a little bit
of an inconvenience to be there.

[Marc] Well, first of all,
did you communicate your hope

that they take him home,
to the defendant?

I did not specifically ask
them to take him home.

I asked them
to take him to get help

and therapeutic help.

[Marc] Nothing further.
Thank you.

[Shannon] When you saw
the gun

drawn on the sheet,

that was not enough
to make you believe

that Mrs. Crumbley's son
posed a risk to himself

or other students, correct?

[Shawn] I wasn't sure whether
he posed a risk to himself,

so that is why I called in
the parents.

If I believed that he was
a threat to people,

I would have taken
different actions.

On November the 30th, when
you met with Jennifer Crumbley,

did she tell you
her son had texted her

-that he was seeing demons?
-No.

That she thought
Ethan was depressed?

-No.
-[Marc] That she had never once

set an appointment with
any mental health professional?

No.

[Marc] Did Jennifer Crumbley
tell you that

she and her husband gave her son

a SIG Sauer 9-mm handgun

just four days
before the shooting?

No.

[Marc] Nothing further.

[David] We're at the end of
day three of testimony.

I think it's gone
really well for our side,

for the prosecution.

I'm just scanning back through

some of the testimony
that I missed, in particular,

looking for
Shannon Smith's conduct.

We were all stunned when
she gave her opening statement

and said that she was listening
to Taylor Swift on the way in

this morning to calm her nerves
and warm up her voice.

And it occurred to her that
Band-Aids over bullet holes

was what this case
was really about.

I hope Taylor Swift heard that,
because that's really offensive

um... and bizarre.

[Karen] Um...

Marc, do you wanna, do you wanna
go through first

-like, our outline for tomorrow.
-[Marc] Yeah.

We have 13 witnesses left.

-We're about halfway through.
-[David] Hmm.

How many have you guys done?

[Karen] Eight.
We've done eight.

-[David] Eight?
-[Karen] Eight witnesses.

That's it.

[Karen] So let's talk
about the photos

and how we're going to handle
that tomorrow.

[Marc] So there's 55 photos

that there's no agreement on.

[Karen] And we're supposed
to start arguing

-about those tomorrow at 8:30.
-[Marc] Correct.

[David] There was a big debate
at the end of the day today about

um, showing photos of their
house which was like

just a complete, like,

wreck because there's like

booze bottles everywhere

and, like, just
clothes everywhere.

Shannon Smith is saying,
"Well, that's not relevant"

and it makes 'em look bad and

You know, our thing is
like, well, we can't change

the condition of the house
when the police got there.

The level of chaos
and lack of knowledge

and what their kid
was doing or caring,

it was critical to this case
and the state of his

two, not one bedroom
but two

because one got too messy,
he just moved to the next

is absolutely relevant.

Alright, cool. See everybody
tomorrow at 8:30.

[Adam] At some point after
we cleared the classrooms

we were told to go to
the old residence

of Jennifer and James Crumbley.

[Marc] So, what are we
looking at here

in this photograph,
Exhibit 164.

[Adam] I was made aware this
was the shooter's bedroom.

There was... targets visible
on the wall that had...

what was apparent to be
bullet holes in them.

[Marc] Okay I'm going to do
another angle here.

That's the same bedroom?

[Adam] Correct.

There was things
all over the floor...

things all over the place,
really.

[Marc] Now, is this the
condition that this gun case

and empty box of ammunition

were found on November 30th, 2021?

[Adam] Correct.

[Marc] And that's
on the master bedroom?

[Adam] Yes. Yes.

[David] I talked to Marc
before I left

and clearly,
he was like, feeling...

Like there's still a lot to do.

[Karen] Okay, I need to call him.

-[Marc] Hello?
-[Karen] David said you...

What are you saying
about Meloche?

[Marc] Okay, I don't think
we should call him.

[Betsey] What were
the points that

you were trying to score
with Meloche?

Meloche is a, you know,
he's the boyfriend, she can't...

Her cross is gonna be limited
because she's...

-They don't want it coming ou--
-She's...

She sought to exclude all
the evidence of the boyfriend.

[Marc] An attorney like Shannon
can feed

on a witness
like Brian Meloche.

Yeah, we've given her
nothing to eat yet.

This is not a decision that
the two of us are gonna make

the night before, we...
It is just not...

It's just not, Marc.
It's gonna...

It's gonna have to be made
with like people

who have slept and eaten dinner

and breakfast
and sat around the room.

We're not gonna make this
decision right now.

It's not the right, it's not
the right thing to do.

Okay, um,
so I'll see you at 7:30.

[court reporter] Jurors heard
from a man first identified

as Jennifer Crumbley's
high school friend.

During questioning,
it was revealed he and Crumbley

had been having an affair.

[Marc] So the first message
here would actually be

November of the 30th...

[Karen] The only reason
that we called Brian Meloche

is that she told him that day

that she was worried her kid
was gonna do something stupid.

You did tell the police
in the interview

that she said she was
worried he might hurt himself

or something like that,
that was your actually...

-Your type statement.
-Yes.

The only reason we ever fought

to admit evidence of that
affair was to show

that there was so much time
being spent outside of work

in those endeavors
and it wasn't just one.

[Marc] Did you do know that
you met her at a Costco

parking lot across the street
from her employer,

and that would happen
during the work days.

-Correct. Correct.
-And during work hours.

-And was it a regular thing?
-Yes.

As a juror, as a mother,
as anyone, you know,

does it matter to me
that you were spending

all of this time outside
of work during work

you know, engaged in
all of that, then another

three and a half hours
at the stable with the horses

you know, yes it does, because
you know where you weren't?

Home with your kid
or even checking in.

[Shannon] Hi, can you start
by stating your name?

It's Jennifer Crumbley.

[Shannon] On the day after
Thanksgiving, did you know

what James and your son
were going to be doing that day?

[Jennifer] Him and Ethan were
at the Acne firearm store

looking at guns.

[Shannon] Did they
purchase a gun that day?

[Jennifer] They did.

He asked me if I wanted to go

to the shooting range with him
and he never asked me

just me to go before.

I shot it a couple times
and he did the rest.

I felt it was a fun day,
I felt good about it.

[Shannon] Do you remember
Tuesday, the 30th?

[Jennifer] Yes.

[Shannon] And we heard lots

of testimony already
about you

getting a call
from Shawn Hopkins.

Correct, he sent me
a copy of a math worksheet.

[Shannon] What did you think
when you saw that?

I was a little concerned, I was,
I was pretty concerned.

[Shannon] What was it like
walking into the meeting with

Mr. Hopkins and Mr. Ejak?

[Jennifer] It was pretty
nonchalant, it was pretty brief

He told us that he didn't feel
my son was a risk and actually

gave him the option if he wanted
to stay at school

or go home, my son
wanted to stay at school

and then I said I'm gonna
go back to work.

[Shannon] Do you believe
there were things

you were thinking at the time,
I should do this

but I'm not doing it,
do you look back

and think that?

No, I don't. I mean, I...

Of course, I look back
after this all

all happened and, um,
I've asked myself

if I would've done anything
differently

and I wouldn't, no.

[Shannon] If you could change
what happened, would you?

Oh, absolutely. I wish he would
have killed us instead.

I think the prosecution
has done an excellent job

of presenting their case.

But... [sighs] Who knows?

We're talking about a jury,

you know, there's 17 people

in the jury box
and they each have

their own views and experiences,

and own interpretations.

Um, I hope that
they see it similar to I do.

[♪ intense music playing]

[Marshal] All rise for the jury.

[Judge] Ladies and gentlemen,
I've been informed

that you have a verdict.

-Is that correct?
-[juror] That is correct.

[Judge] Could you please
read your verdict?

[woman 2] On count one
of involuntary manslaughter

as to Madisyn Baldwin,
we find the defendant guilty,

of involuntary manslaughter.

On count two
of involuntary manslaughter

in regards to Tate Myre,

we find the defendant guilty

of involuntary manslaughter.

A Michigan mother found
guilty on all four counts

of involuntary manslaughter.

[reporter 9] After a day
and a half of deliberations,

a Michigan jury finding
Jennifer Crumbley guilty.

[reporter 10] The jury
determined Crumbley

failed in her duty as a parent

by ignoring the signs
of her son's

deteriorating mental health.

Jennifer Crumbley
is the first U.S. parent

convicted of manslaughter
over a mass shooting

carried out by their own child.

[reporter 11]
It is a historic decision.

This is a landmark ruling,
there's no doubt

that this will be seen as
a very significant moment.

[woman 3] If you start using

the Crumbley case
as a precedent,

how many parents
who are good parents

will get caught in this net?

[David] Getting ready for
the second trial,

it's no longer a first,
so it's a little bit different.

I think most, if not all,
of the jurors know

that Jennifer Crumbley
was found guilty.

It just changes
the dynamic a little bit.

You understand that
you are charged with

four counts of involuntary
manslaughter?

[James] Yes.

-[♪ instrumental music playing]
-[dog barking]

So, we're going to Oxford.

[Gregory] I'm Gregory Beaudry,

foreman for
the James Crumbley trial.

So I guess East Street's
right up here.

The Crumbley family lived there.

And the high school will be

right up here
at the top of the hill.

[man 20] I appreciate you
taking us.

Yeah, it's definitely
a sad day.

The first thing
I could think of was, uh,

how did a kid get a gun?

[♪ suspenseful music playing]

[reporter 12] James Crumbley
will go on trial

following the conviction
of his wife,

Jennifer Crumbley,
on similar charges.

[woman] All rise.
The court is now in session

with the Honorable
Cheryl A. Matthews, presiding.

I felt very strongly about what

my approach was going to be
to this case

and what my defense
was going to be.

I do believe what
I'm fighting for in this case.

I've believed it from
the beginning.

Alright, so we're gonna hear,
um, openings. Prosecutors?

[Marc] Thank you, judge.

The shooter's case is done.

The shooter's mother,
Jennifer Crumbley,

her case is done.

You're here to decide
the level of gross negligence

of James Crumbley.

And you will learn
throughout this trial

that he was the adult
out of anyone in the world

in the best position
to prevent these kids' deaths.

This nightmare, these murders,

were preventable by him,
foreseeable by him.

[Mariell] For me, it boils down
to reasonable foreseeability.

And whether or not
James had knowledge

of what his son was capable of
or what his son was planning.

This case is not
about what happened

inside of Oxford High School.

This case is about what happened

outside of Oxford High School.

He had no knowledge that
his son had obtained access

to the firearms that
James thought he had

responsibly hidden
and, and prevented

his son from having access to.

[indistinct chatter]

[♪ instrumental music playing]

[David] They started
with opening statements

this morning.

There's an issue where

the defendant makes calls

from the jail,
and those are recorded,

and the prosecution
is allowed to listen to those.

He's made some
statements that are

threatening to the prosecutor.

[James] Shit's fucking
goin' down.

I mean, it's going
fucking down.

When I get out of here,

I am fuckin'
on a rampage, Karen.

Yes, Karen McDonald,
your ass is goin' down,

and you better be
fuckin' scared.

[David] So, this afternoon,
at the end of the day,

I'm gonna ask that the judge
cut off his jail communications

other than with his attorney
or a clergy member.

[indistinct chatter]

[David] And, judge,
I'm happy to do that.

[Mariell] Okay, Your Honor,
my client is not

willing to agree to the order.

[Judge] Okay, so...

[Mariell] It's basically
restricting his

ability to speak
to people, judge.

I mean, it-it's...

It's a complete revocation,

except for counsel and clergy.

[Judge] I'm most concerned about
him being able to talk to you.

[David] Right, we're asking that
the communications be limited

to only counsel
and legitimate clergy

during the rest of the trial.

Defense counsel?

-What?
-[indistinct]

-No. Help me.
-Okay.

Your Honor, he is not
agreeing to the order.

[Mariell] May I speak with
Mr. Williams for one moment?

[Judge] Please step out of the room.

[Mariell] I disagree with the
prosecution's characterization

of those phone calls.

Some of the phone calls that
the prosecution was claiming

were threatening
in some way were from...

years before the trial began.

They seem more to be venting
about frustrations involving

the prosecution
and the fact that

James was still incarcerated.

It felt like the prosecution
was trying

to make James look bad

by raising this issue

after the trial
had already started.

[long sigh]

Look...

being in... the public eye
in the capacity

that I am, particularly
right now in this country,

is, comes with a giant spoonful

of threatening statements

and behavior.

If this were anyone else
in my office,

I would be stridently,
um, insisting

that it be brought to the court.

[♪ mellow music playing]

[Karen] Um...

She did not say hardly anything

about how the gun was stored.

She said, you'll hear
that he didn't believe

that he had access.

But how will we hear that unless
he testifies?

-Right.
-[Karen] That is the curious thing.

Right? They never say,
like, once,

oh, my God, like,
how did he get this gun?

Which, like, if they were
shocked...

Here's, here's what it is.
I got it.

If they were truly shocked
that he had the gun,

they would have expressed
that shock to law enforcement.

They just would have.

And there was no shock.

-[Marc] Zero.
-Zero.

[Marc] That's a good slide
for closing.

Today is the part of
the evening where I tell Marc...

What is it you're really doing?

Does it have to be done?

And you probably should go home.

I will spend only
as much time as I need.

I am preparing for
examinations for tomorrow.

And it does need
to be done right now.

[laughter]

[Karen] Okay, you guys.

-See you tomorrow.
-Goodnight.

Bye.

[Marc] Good job today.

-You too.
-[David] Yeah. It's a good job.

[♪ instrumental music playing]

[Judge] Prosecutors,
you next your witness.

[Marc] Ms. Cammy Back.

Have you sold a firearm
to James Crumbley?

[Cammy] Yes.

[Marc] Whose responsibility
it is to actually

make the gun statement?

The buyer.

[Brett] This is the pistol case
that would've came with it.

There were no locking mechanisms
in it when it was found.

The legal key is foreseeability.

When you think
about what he knew

about the gun,
about his son...

and then he sees
that drawing...

what do you do?

And any responsible person
is gonna do a couple of things.

They're gonna ask him
what's going on,

and they would look
at that drawing and say,

my, God, that's the same
gun we just bought him.

It's easy to go in
hindsight on a lot of things.

Um, based on what
my concerns were,

I was concerned about
student well-being.

We talked about hindsight and
looking back at some of the,

what they might call the signs

when it comes to the shooter,

that those weren't
considered signs

until after the shooting occurred.

Is it your decision
to testify,

or is your decision
to remain silent?

It is my decision
to remain silent.

In James' case, the jury
got to hear from him.

They got to hear from
him on the 911 call.

[James on audio recording]
My son goes to the high school.

I have a missing gun
at my house.

[Mariell] Says he sees his son
for the first time

after the shooting...

-Why?
-[James] I love you.

I love you. I love you.
I love you.

[Mariell] Those recordings
allow the jury to hear

from James in those moments

when he's learning
all of this new information

and-and hearing
from him as it happens.

[Judge] Members of the jury,
the evidence and

arguments in this
case are finished.

Remember that you
have taken an oath

to return a true
and just verdict.

Based only on the evidence,
you must not let

sympathy, bias, or prejudice
influence your decision.

[Gregory] When we went into
deliberation,

I, uh, first said, "Let's find
out what we're at here."

We went around the table

and we come up with

nine guilty... two not guilty,
and one undecided.

It wasn't easy.
Uh, a lot of emotions.

And, uh, that's why
it took over 10 hours.

[Karen] When we were
waiting for the verdict,

Marc and I just left
and ended up

sitting out in my waiting room.

We knew they were gonna
stay till 7

and it got to be like 6:50.

And then we both
were just like,

Ugh, God! Please.

And then he just said,
there's a verdict.

[Judge] Ladies and gentlemen,
I know you've worked very hard.

We've all been
awaiting your decision.

I know this was a very intense

decision for you all to make.

Uh, I believe you've
selected a foreperson.

Who's the foreperson?
You are the foreperson.

Could you read
the verdict, please?

[Gregory] Count one,
involuntary manslaughter

as to Madisyn Baldwin.

Guilty.

Count two, guilty
of involuntary manslaughter

as to Tate Myre.

Count three, guilty
of involuntary manslaughter

as to Hana St. Juliana.

Count four, guilty
of involuntary manslaughter

as to Justin Shilling.

[♪ instrumental music playing]

[metal clinking]

[Karen] No amount of years
in prison is gonna make

their grief or pain any less.

It's not gonna bring
anybody back.

What they want most of all
is just accountability.

The thought that I would have...

put all of these people
in that community

and all of these victims
through this journey

and asked so much of them

and have it not be... successful

was almost too much to bear.

[♪ instrumental music playing]

[♪ intense music playing]