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Could you follow me around?
Just jot around?
4
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,320
Yeah, just see here. Yeah, look at me.
Here, around to the corner. That's it.
5
00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,280
The Cúirt Festival is renowned for risk,
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00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,480
but do the daredevils of Galway
know what it means to invite John Healy,
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00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,840
the author ofThe Grass Arena?
8
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,160
On first publication in 1988,
it was a sell-out sensation,
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00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,920
and Mr Healy threatened Faber
with violence to secure a reprint.
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00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,640
The Browser advises all concerned
to ensure appropriate protection.
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00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,000
-Make straight for the table.
-Okay.
12
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,760
I'd be pushing them off.
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00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:21,320
All right.
14
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,520
-Right, okay.
-Yeah.
15
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,320
So just start off with you,
just tell us, tell us your name.
16
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:29,840
-My name?
-Yeah.
17
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,880
My name is John Healy and, uh…
18
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,000
I was born in London in, uh, 1942.
19
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,880
My parents were Irish.
They came from Sligo.
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00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:48,200
And I had a very violent childhood,
and I started drinking when I was about 15
21
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,080
and in the end I ended up
drinking on the street.
22
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,200
Well, drinking on the streets,
then it wasn't like, um, drinking now.
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00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,720
All winos were muggers.
There was robbery and violence.
24
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,400
I was there 15 years,
in and out of prison,
25
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:10,560
and the burglar known as the Brighton Fox
taught me to play chess.
26
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,920
It's a mental opiate, chess,
and it altered my life.
27
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,760
Actually, I started to play
in chess matches and tournaments,
28
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,240
so I never took a drink after that.
29
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,200
I've got this desire to write something.
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00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,560
And gradually after a year,
I had a, a book.
31
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,400
It sold nearly 20,000 copies.
32
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,600
Then it was made into a film,
and it won the Best British Feature Film
33
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,800
and the book
was suddenly taken out of print.
34
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:46,640
How did that happen?
35
00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,600
I don't know.
Suddenly, the, the book just, uh…
36
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,400
Faber's took the book out of print.
37
00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:58,560
So the book has been
out of print for 15 years.
38
00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:00,000
Fifteen years, yeah.
39
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,600
Anytime your name appears in print now,
40
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,840
it seems to be associated with violence.
41
00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:12,400
Yes, I-- every time I'm invited
to a literary festival around the world,
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00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,360
something comes out in a paper,
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00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,240
say The Observer or something,
like sniping at me, running me down.
44
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:19,720
What actually happened?
45
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,640
Did you-- Did you feel like you said
the wrong thing to the wrong person?
46
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:23,720
No, I don't--
47
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,720
I don't think I said the wrong thing
to the wrong person at the time. I…
48
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,200
I've thought about it over the years
and, uh, I'm penniless
49
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,360
and everything, but, um…
50
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:37,880
Um…
51
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,640
It had to be said.
52
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,560
Well, what did you actually say to them?
53
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,040
-Bah. What? Do you want me to…
-I mean, you know…
54
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,800
I don't wanna say
that I threatened him with an axe, do I?
55
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,480
You know, it's, it's like…
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00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,160
If we're going to address it,
we need to address it head on.
57
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,440
But otherwise we just don't do,
you know, the fact is that--
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00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,800
It makes your program better
if I say the mad axe-man, yeah.
59
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,000
-Please welcome Mr John Healy.
-Welcome please John Healy.
60
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,120
John Healy…
61
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,120
John Healy is now a celebrated
novelist, and autobiographer.
62
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,320
Although he says
he was better off on the dole.
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00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:19,519
The Grass Arena is a one-off book.
It's phenomenally special.
64
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,400
It's one of the sort of as it were
top-10, top-15 books
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00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:23,560
that I've ever published.
66
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,520
This book is, you know, one of the best
autobiographies that I know of,
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00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,960
you know, written
over the last 20 or 30 years.
68
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,480
What struck me when I first
read it was how well written it was.
69
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,080
I really thought it was a masterpiece.
70
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,560
Few people could come
from where he came from
71
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,760
and write with such passion,
such vividness.
72
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:46,760
Like thousands of others,
73
00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:49,560
I'd readThe Grass Arena
in the early '90s.
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00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,800
It had been a touchstone book
for many of my generation,
75
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,960
and the sudden disappearance
of its author had puzzled me for years.
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00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,760
I wanted to find out
what happened to John Healy.
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00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,000
I had a lot of trouble here 20 years ago.
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00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,520
Just getting, you know, the truth told now
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00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:08,680
on a documentary they're making.
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00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,000
I've got put out of print here.
81
00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,120
It's not 'cause of my writing,
it's just 'cause I got put out of print
82
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,800
because of class by Fabers,
and the others took it up.
83
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,400
It's like hitting, uh,
hitting a screw in nick,
84
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:21,440
or they say you did.
85
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,960
You're tarnished forever,
your record, you know, so…
86
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,400
But I'm just slightly getting back now.
87
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,200
Though the basic facts
about what had happened soon became clear.
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00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:39,720
The reasons why were infinitely
more interesting.
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00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,280
I soon discovered
that John didn't like being on camera
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00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,200
and sometimes being interviewed
seemed to cause an actual pain.
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00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:53,120
Let's get a shot of this.
92
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:54,880
If you flip through the pages,
then I'll get a shot of them.
93
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,480
Yeah, but I don't wanna do that.
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00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,840
You're supposed to--
This is supposed to be spontaneous,
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00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,400
even the both, both of you--
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00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,720
filmmakers think there are
guys talking about it
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00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,920
and then he sits behind here.
I mean, that's just pony.
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00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:07,880
He also made it clear
that there were some areas
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00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,360
he didn't want the film to go into.
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00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,200
-I don't want to answer that.
-Okay.
101
00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:15,760
That puts me onto a barbed hook,
you see, some of these questions.
102
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,840
See, I don't wanna say things on camera.
Turn it off for a minute.
103
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,640
But I don't wanna get on a camera
saying this
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00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,440
-and get-- You know what I mean?
-No, what I--
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00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,400
It don't look right. Just a minute.
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00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,000
This is supposed to be
a documentary, isn't it?
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00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,160
-This is a part--
-Not a feature film.
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00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:32,240
No.
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00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,000
Let me see. I'm not sure about this.
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But when conversation turned
away from personal matters,
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00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,800
when it stopped being an interview,
he was immediately himself again.
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00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,040
-It's all right.
113
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,000
You're very photogenic.
Anybody'll tell you that.
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00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,240
Yeah, he looks good in the sun.
115
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,800
-Oh, fuck off.
116
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,680
Boring old fart seeks new bonne,
young 18 year old
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00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,480
for romps
on his Mediterranean-based yacht.
118
00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,280
Do you actually have a yacht?
119
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,800
Not a yacht, a squat?
120
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,480
I told myself that eventually
I'd capture that side of him in the film
121
00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:11,720
if he let me.
122
00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,600
So what is it you're working
on at the moment, John?
123
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,800
I hope to get some
of my other book published.
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00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,120
I've got a novel called
The Metal Mountain and Streets Above Us.
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00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,240
What is it you're actually reading?
126
00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,520
I'm reading The Metal Mountain,
just checking it, you know?
127
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,080
And when did you first start
writing The Metal Mountain?
128
00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,640
Oh, years ago, a long time ago.
I can't remember now.
129
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:55,240
I've been… I've been working on this
about I don't know, maybe ten years.
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00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,240
Do you work on it every day?
131
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,840
I used to yeah,
when I was writing it first, yeah.
132
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,400
And how often now do you?
133
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,200
Oh, very sparingly, you know,
only if I think of something.
134
00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,400
It's ready, like for publisher
to take a look at, yeah.
135
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,760
There's a big historic element
in the documentary, this documentary.
136
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,320
And I was thinking
it's some official voice
137
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,120
needs to authenticate some events.
138
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,799
Otherwise, witless, witless critics
will keep calling it harmlessness
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00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,919
and equating it with today
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00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,200
instead of explaining
that the laws, the vagrancy laws,
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00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,760
uh, created a subculture, a place to live…
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00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,080
one more day in the face of death.
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00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,320
Whereas homelessness allows them
to deflect attention
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00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,960
from the state of terrorism
against chronic alcoholics at the time,
145
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,960
and it's hatred
of Irish immigrants…
146
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,480
…especially when the trouble started
in 19…
147
00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:17,960
What was it? '68. Boy, oh, boy,
did they used to get beaten up then,
148
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,880
and they weren't even doing anything,
just alcoholic Irish.
149
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:23,760
In the last couple of years,
you were on the street yourself?
150
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:24,840
Yeah, that's right.
151
00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,040
Yeah, well, getting towards
but a year is a long time there.
152
00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,560
I mean, you can't compare it really,
can you? You can meet with anything.
153
00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:49,040
My mind wandered back
to the years I spent on the streets
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00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,680
with The Dipper, The Jockey,
Big Con, Mack the Knife,
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00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:59,960
Scarface Mick, Hogan,
Long John Flynn, Fenten, The Spiv,
156
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,600
Scotch Genie, Big Greta,
Belfast Mary, Liverpool Lille.
157
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,760
Roaming around like starving jackals.
158
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,200
Even when sick, shuffling along,
heads bent, we were always alert.
159
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,240
Ever aware, like half-tamed animals.
160
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,440
We looked at people
with only one thought in mind.
161
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,960
How can we get the price
of a drink out of them?
162
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,360
Do you remember
the first time you came here?
163
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,080
Do you remember
your first arrival in this park?
164
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:45,160
Nah.
165
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,160
What age would you
have been when you came here?
166
00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,360
Oh, I don't know.
167
00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:54,040
I was hopping in and out. I used to…
168
00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,360
I used to…
169
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,840
drink with winos then.
170
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,960
You think, "Well,
you know these, these guys…
171
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,160
These people are mad,
they're barbarians. They're crazy."
172
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,120
You couldn't live with them,
and I'd be able to hop out, you know,
173
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,480
'cause I looked-- I was young
and I could go thieving
174
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,400
and drink in pubs and get away with it.
175
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,240
Then eventually I couldn't drink in pubs.
176
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,200
They wouldn't let me in.
I was too violent,
177
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,440
and then I ended up
permanently with the winos.
178
00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,600
I couldn't leave them then
and I was one of them.
179
00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:30,920
So I became one of them. And…
180
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,680
-When you were in your 20s?
-So, in my 20s, yeah.
181
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,200
Probably I was about
six years older than John,
182
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,360
so I'd be kind of a, more
of a seasoned drinker.
183
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,400
More of a park drinker, you know.
184
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,080
But I thought it was a bit odd for Johnny.
185
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,840
I thought, "You're a bit young."
Probably at that time
186
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,600
I thought he should be away
to a disco or something.
187
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,320
'Cause he was very fit
and very active, you know.
188
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:55,760
He had boxed, he told me,
189
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,960
for the Saint Pancras Boxing Club,
you know,
190
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,000
and he'd been in the army
for a while as well, you know.
191
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,680
And he used to walk Hampstead Heath
up and down for exercise, you know,
192
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,000
keep fit, like, you know, I didn't…
193
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,600
But I thought, "It's a bit strange."
But next thing, he joined us completely.
194
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,920
John came from a regular family,
you know, like us all.
195
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,800
Oh, my mother would give him a few quid.
196
00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,160
Clean him up a bit, you know.
197
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,800
But what can you do
with a crawling alcoholic?
198
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,080
He's going to go
where he wants to go anyway.
199
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,400
He's gonna do what he wants to do
and a lot of them died.
200
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,160
But a lot of them come out of it
to tell the tale, you see.
201
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,840
That's the other side of life, isn't it?
202
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:41,920
The other side of life.
203
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,560
How did you find your way here?
204
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,800
Well, you get to know the haunts.
205
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,920
When I was young I started off
in Houston Gardens
206
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,120
and you know where, where people go.
207
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:10,080
It's like, "How do you get to learn
to talk?"
208
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,440
These emptying jails.
209
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,320
You thought there was that kind
of conviviality there.
210
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,560
You could feel normal with us, you know,
211
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,920
but he didn't feel much normal
outside of that, you know.
212
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,600
There was fun in it, you see,
there was laughs in it.
213
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,560
There was fucking hunger in it.
214
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:32,520
And there was a lot of violence
and thanks be to God I can take it.
215
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,120
Many are called to this thing, you know,
but few are chosen.
216
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,400
For over a decade from 1960 to 1971,
217
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,560
John Healy slept rough, stayed drunk,
and fought for survival
218
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,200
in the barbaric wino subculture
of Kentish Town and Houston.
219
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:54,760
You're out at night,
you're drunk,
220
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,160
-you're looking for a place to sleep.
-Yeah.
221
00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,360
What would you be looking for?
222
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,440
Somewhere to get in off the street where…
223
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,360
you know, because it was illegal
to be skippering
224
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,960
or to be on the street, vagrancy law.
225
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:10,640
-Yeah.
-So…
226
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,400
you just want to get somewhere
where you can get… get off.
227
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,000
I woke up in a skipper in Highbury
not a penny in my pockets,
228
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,320
freezing cold and dying for a drink.
229
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,720
Woke up lying in a puddle
of water at the bottom
230
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,000
of some iron stairs
in the basement of a house.
231
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,680
I woke up on top of a pile
of earth and stones,
232
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,160
the workmen that had dug out of a trench
at the side of the road.
233
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,000
You awake, rise, look for a drink,
234
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,720
or fall asleep again
staring into darkness,
235
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,200
seeing nothing, hearing nothing,
236
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,760
feeling nothing. Time passes nonetheless.
237
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,040
See? Get through there.
238
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,520
-Anyone if that was out like that… See?
-Yeah.
239
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,040
…if that was out a bit more
240
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,120
you'd get in there and lay there.
That'd be a skipper, just laying there.
241
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,560
Because of the vagrancy laws.
242
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,120
Tell us what you do to get in there.
243
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,920
Well, if you were sober enough,
you'd push that out
244
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,880
and get to see what he could
or pull some of that out
245
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,120
and get in and pull it back after you.
246
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,760
Pull the stuff back after you
for camouflage.
247
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,120
-So, you'd be hidden?
-So you'd be hidden.
248
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,120
I mean, you wouldn't care, would you?
249
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,480
You've had a drink and that,
it gets you out of the way.
250
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,720
-No one sees you.
-Jesus, that's…
251
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,880
So would you actually
have slept in a place such as…
252
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,200
Yeah, yeah.
253
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,920
Yeah, about here,
this hill went up like that.
254
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,160
There was a circular…
255
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,160
dip.
256
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:57,320
Similar to an ancient
amphitheater or collis-- arena,
257
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,520
but it's all been filled in now
and tidied up.
258
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,080
Fights used to start in here
and as mon-- amongst other things and…
259
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,600
Very, sort of…
260
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,080
dirtiest of weapons and broken bottle
and that. Very primitive.
261
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,760
So it was like an arena.
262
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,440
There was people killed here, yeah.
263
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,680
Yeah, with a bottle in the neck.
264
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:26,600
People you knew?
265
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:27,920
Oh, of course, yeah.
266
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,200
Do you know any--
Do you remember any names
267
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,720
of the people that you knew that were…
268
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,360
Uh…
269
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,760
Davey Stone was one guy
that was killed here, yeah.
270
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,280
-Who was he?
-He was a jock. He was a pimp.
271
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,200
Uh, by another pimp, he was killed.
272
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,800
So I never heard the bottle smash
above the gritty patter,
273
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,800
but he shoved a broken bottle right into…
Davey…
274
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,680
Stone's neck there.
275
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,960
Davey just keeled over with a hoarse,
broken sort of sigh.
276
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,319
I wanted to help him lay down,
277
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,880
but I-I was frightened
to getting blood smeared. Evidence.
278
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,040
I mean, they could fit me with it,
and so I jumped up and got the bench
279
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,520
between us and he had his hands out
like that, coming like that and…
280
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:19,000
And he was going around in a circle.
281
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,520
And I was drunk actually.
And then I was kind of…
282
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,560
Well, I was well-drunk, really, a bit,
283
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,960
and I couldn't make out
whether he was drunk
284
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,440
or I was drunk in the end,
and it was comical, really.
285
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,760
He was wandering around and he was
gurgling and blowing awful bubbles,
286
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,320
you know, and then he started to wander
287
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,240
into the road and…
288
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,080
Yeah, then I didn't see him.
After that he was gone.
289
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,640
Everyone and everything
is full of tension.
290
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,000
There are no tomorrows.
291
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,240
Tomorrow can't be relied upon to come.
292
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,720
Each day, you have
to prove yourself anew,
293
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,160
stealing, fighting, begging and drinking.
294
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,160
Violent acts quickly punished
by further violence,
295
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,480
deteriorates mind and body more and more
296
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,600
until eventually the supreme cycle
puts the final boot in.
297
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,200
Have you ever come back here before, John?
298
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,960
No, only the once,
when they were making the film, you know.
299
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,280
This is only the second time
300
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:24,880
-you've ever been back?
-Yeah.
301
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,200
Does it make you think about things
you'd rather not think about,
302
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,000
or is it better if you not care?
303
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,160
Oh, mostly I-I…
304
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:36,960
don't wanna think about it.
You know what I mean? Sometimes.
305
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,480
And sometimes you don't care, you know.
306
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,840
Next station,
ladies and gentlemen, will be Hove.
307
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,400
This train continues
to Worthing and Littlehampton.
308
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:57,880
Tell us a bit about, about Erwin,
309
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,160
How do you get on with him?
What's he like as a friend?
310
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,640
Well, if you walked in a room
and you said to someone like,
311
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,400
"Pick out the ex-lifer or in this room,"
you wouldn't pick Erwin.
312
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,640
Was kind of like a gentleman or something.
313
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,880
No, you know highly educated,
not more educated than I am.
314
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,680
I'll tell you one thing,
315
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,720
what I still can't get over
is looking at distances
316
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,600
'cause in prison you never see distance,
you never seen a distance.
317
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,800
Whenever I see a skyline like that,
you think, "My God!"
318
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,720
It's unbelievable,
'cause when you're in those places--
319
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,200
this is a fantasy,
just to sit and look at an ocean.
320
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:47,280
-Yeah.
-Okay.
321
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,240
It's only the English Channel but,
you know.
322
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,080
I first came across about the book
I was in prison.
323
00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:02,480
I think I was six years
into my, my life sentence.
324
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,040
I went to prison in 1984 for murder,
325
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,760
and it was a probation officer outside
sent me the book in.
326
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,240
I read it in one sitting.
327
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,320
And it had a massive impact.
328
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,240
I lived in the places that John had lived.
329
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,840
I slept in bus shelters,
slept on Brighton Beach,
330
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,040
slept on the streets,
and lived like a rat.
331
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:27,640
It gave me a sense of…
332
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,200
that it was possible to recover
333
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,120
from the worst place
you could possibly be, you know.
334
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,760
For 15 years after reading his book,
335
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,240
I was preoccupied with my own situation.
336
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,400
But as soon as I realized
337
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,440
that he hadn't had the life
that I imagined he would have had,
338
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,200
it bothered me
that he hadn't had the recognition.
339
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,120
I spoke to my agent about him.
340
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,720
Actually I said, "Look, is there anything
you could do with John's work?"
341
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,960
And he said,
"John Healy has written a classic."
342
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,080
He said, "Why doesn't he talk
to someone at Penguin Classics?"
343
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,360
I was sitting at my desk one day,
and I had a phone call from Erwin James
344
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,520
um, and he said to me, um,
345
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,400
"I gather you're considering
the book The Grass Arena
346
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,120
for Penguin Modern Classics."
347
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,360
And I said, "What?
I'd never heard of the book,
348
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,760
um, and I don't know
what you're talking about."
349
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,040
Um, and so he then told me about the book,
350
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,400
and I said, "This sounds
very, very interesting." Um…
351
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,920
And he promised to send me a copy,
which he did.
352
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,720
Um, and…
353
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,360
I started reading it.
354
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,240
And I couldn't put it down.
355
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:37,040
In 2008, The Grass Arena
was brought back into print
356
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,760
by Penguin Books as part
of their Modern Classics imprint.
357
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:51,800
What's that one smell like?
358
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,280
It smells like…
359
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:58,720
…paint stripper. Probably dear perfume.
360
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,280
Once upon a time, you would've drunk it.
361
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:05,840
I woulda drunk it, yeah.
This one smells like…
362
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,040
mentholated spirits.
363
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:13,160
I'm often rediscovering books
from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, um,
364
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,120
that are out of print,
and usually I have to champion them
365
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,720
to all my colleagues,
and they've never heard of them
366
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,360
or they vaguely might know
of the author or the title,
367
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,600
and very, very rarely have they read them.
368
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:30,440
With this book, I found a lot of people
in their late 30s to late 40s,
369
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,800
who all said,
"Of course, The Grass Arena."
370
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,600
"We remember that we read it 20 years ago
when it came out. What a book."
371
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,360
Um, and that was really striking
and, and kind of confirmed my sense
372
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,760
that this was a book
that deserved to be back in print.
373
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,480
-Is there many down there?
-Loads.
374
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,960
Here we go then.
375
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,560
For me, this book is, you know,
376
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,960
one of the best autobiographies
that I know of,
377
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,880
you know, written over
the last 20 or 30 years.
378
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,200
They waited.
379
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,120
Just dropped my lucky medal.
380
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,680
Six months later
381
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,360
in the depths
of a particularly harsh winter,
382
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,840
I visited John to find out
if having The Grass Arena back in print
383
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,720
had made much difference to his life.
384
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,440
Haven't made a lot of difference.
385
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,640
In a sense, monetary,
I didn't get a big advance.
386
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,000
The publishers are quite pleased
that it's selling steadily.
387
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:04,760
So…
388
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,080
Publishers are rich people.
389
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,360
Won't affect their life
one way or the other.
390
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,480
I'm, I'm looking forward
to filming the simul with you.
391
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,720
I think that's-- Have you done
one of those in a long time?
392
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,640
No, I haven't done for a long time.
393
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:17,720
Yeah, but I mean…
394
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,240
Yes, the last one I had 30 players.
395
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,120
I forget when it was now.
It must be 12 years ago.
396
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,160
And, uh…
397
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,320
And lucky enough, I managed
to win them all.
398
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,640
In an attempt to get publicity
399
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,800
and to draw attention
to his unpublished work,
400
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,280
John is playing 14 people and one computer
401
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:47,160
in a demanding type
of chess display known as a simul.
402
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,520
It's not something I really want to do.
403
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,920
You're-you're isolated
for long periods at a time,
404
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,680
and suddenly,
you're thrust into the limelight,
405
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,880
it… facing crowds.
It's very strange experience,
406
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,360
almost schizophrenic.
407
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,920
And why
put yourself through that?
408
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,480
Because I've got no other way
409
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,680
of letting people know about my work.
410
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,600
-Steven, this is John.
-Hi.
411
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,120
-Nice to meet you, John. How you doing?
-Oh, yeah.
412
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,120
-Beautiful room.
-Lovely, yeah.
413
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,200
Yeah, it's better
than some of the skippers I've been in.
414
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:38,440
I've been out of print for 20 years,
and now I'm back
415
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,840
and I want to try and make people aware
of my works, my writing.
416
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,960
They're not about chess, this is just…
417
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,400
another talent I have,
and I-- it's the only thing I can exploit
418
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,080
to try and get some publicity.
419
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,040
I don't play chess now…
420
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:54,840
much.
421
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,240
And…
422
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,360
every few months I might play with some--
423
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,200
when coming back
from a tournament, a couple of games,
424
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,760
but other than that, I don't play.
425
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,200
But you know,
are you not a bit out of practice?
426
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,240
A little. A little.
427
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,880
In 1971, in Pentonville Prison
on what was to be his final sentence,
428
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,880
John shared his cell
with a burglar named Harry Collins,
429
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,520
otherwise known as the Brighton Fox.
430
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,000
It's hard to describe him, really.
431
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,800
He had sort of a longish face
and the longest nose.
432
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,320
He probably looked like a fox.
433
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,000
He said to me,
434
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,400
"If I was to tell you
about a game, Oliver,"
435
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,160
he used to, he used to call me
Oliver Twist.
436
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,720
"And if I told you of a game, Oliver,
437
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,440
that if you were playing this game,
438
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,560
you can do all that you're doing
on the street now on the chess board
439
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:52,800
without getting nicked for it."
440
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,480
He says, "What is it
but breaking and entering
441
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,080
when you break
into your opponent's castle position,
442
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,120
steal his queen,
443
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,720
mug his king, rob his pawns."
444
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,360
So it was intriguing.
445
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,560
So I started to learn chess from him.
I didn't take me long.
446
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,160
I thought, "Well, this is my answer
and this, this is life."
447
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,760
"You could get kudos from this."
448
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,720
"You could get a Grand Master,
you get paid and…"
449
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,760
"You've got a peer group,
and you've got a set of rules,
450
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,680
and it's kind of like a life."
451
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:30,080
This belief stayed with me
for about, um, five years.
452
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,120
I was 30 years old
453
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,800
and had become besotted with chess,
ate it, drank it, dreamed about it.
454
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,360
It had replaced everything in my mind.
What would I need to do?
455
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,800
Chess is a jealous lover,
would tolerate no other,
456
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,120
especially in the form of too much drink.
457
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,360
I gave myself to her completely,
body and soul,
458
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,880
and for the first time in my life
459
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,640
I began to live without the constant,
nagging desire to drink.
460
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,800
The one thing
about all chess players is
461
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,000
they're obsessive.
462
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,760
You have to be completely obsessed
by chess to play it well,
463
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,440
because it-- it's a total detachment
from the real world.
464
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,280
The amount of calculation,
the amount of pattern recognition,
465
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:22,960
concept formation,
it's all the high-level mental skills.
466
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,480
This was the surprising thing
about John Healy,
467
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,800
that he actually had these enormous
mental abilities that chess demands.
468
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,360
He was winning tournaments. He was…
469
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,640
He was he could play four games
at the same time, blindfold.
470
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,960
He-- It was,
it was an unbelievable talent.
471
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,640
To see him at not having not started
playing until he was about 30,
472
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,680
suddenly outperforming people
who'd been playing all their lives.
473
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,520
It… It's impossible.
474
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,040
Everything was going
more or less smoothly until, um…
475
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,600
I kept getting…
476
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,640
more stress…
477
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,320
from… the chess.
478
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,320
It's very stressful subject
to play professionally
479
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:12,920
and in tournaments.
480
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,520
Just once in a while
he could, you know, flare up
481
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,160
and, and, and,
and really show he felt insecure
482
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,920
and I-I had a personal example of this.
483
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,280
One Saturday night,
and I was just working away.
484
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,240
And I'd had, you know,
quite normal relations
485
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,760
with John up to there,
486
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,480
and I got this, this call,
487
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,120
and then I think, you know,
I'd done something I'd…
488
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,160
I'd turned down
one of his positions or something,
489
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,920
and-and he, he said,
"Hey, I'm going to come over and--
490
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,560
I'm going to come over and kill you."
491
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,520
And I thought, "Well, this has…
492
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,400
this has never happened
to, to me quite, quite before,"
493
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:58,920
so I was very, very concerned.
494
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,000
I rang up-- even rang up the local,
local police station.
495
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,920
And they said,
"No, don't, don't worry, sir."
496
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,600
"We, we get these death threats
or all the time."
497
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,920
"They-- you know, most of the time,
they-they never happen."
498
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,760
And so I just let it slip,
and the next time I spoke to John,
499
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,400
he was very normal
and you know, we got… we got on fine
500
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,960
and-and we neither of us ever-ever
referred to this-this matter-matter again.
501
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,120
Chess is a blood sport,
because it's a hunt for king,
502
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,320
and if you face 15 opponents
at a blood sport
503
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,560
and this time blow on the flank,
504
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,440
sudden breakthrough in the center,
505
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,600
a piece offside--
506
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,680
small things,
but all these things can cost the game,
507
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,000
cause defeat,
and defeat is always waiting.
508
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,040
In that world, I had no real friends.
509
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,880
The game of chess
is about competition, not friendship.
510
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,600
Each time the chess game was over,
I was back on the street.
511
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,720
Tension was back,
512
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:08,440
chess was like the drink,
513
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,000
and it was going to be a big wrench
to get out of it
514
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,240
-since I had nothing to take its place.
515
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,960
I realized,
I had to realize then that these…
516
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,080
Masters, and they learn when they're five,
517
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,800
and I was 30 when I learned the moves,
so I began to realize that…
518
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,600
Pfft. "Oh, this is too…
519
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,440
I'm not going to conquer this."
520
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,120
And…
521
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,120
it took me another year to accept it.
522
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,360
John gave up tournament chess in 1975
523
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:43,560
and never went back.
524
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,720
I thought
you weren't going to film in taxis.
525
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,600
It's not my image, is it, in a cab.
Hey, we don't want a cabs, do we?
526
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,840
Hey.
527
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:01,320
Take me cap off.
528
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,880
I don't want no cabs, no.
Limousines, yeah, well…
529
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,320
Right, Christine.
Who is she?
530
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,120
She's a friend. She's a…
531
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,960
A friend. I've known her a long time.
She's a yoga teacher.
532
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,400
John's an extreme character.
533
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,040
Everything he does is extreme.
534
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,280
When he took up chess,
he became a champion.
535
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,600
He became a boxing champion,
536
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,120
um, and he then took up yoga,
made it a way of life.
537
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,960
I first met John in 1976,
538
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,360
in South London at a meditation evening
539
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,840
where he was giving a talk on his life.
540
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,000
I think there's a shared connection
through an understanding of yoga,
541
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,360
of being aware,
if you like, of the transients
542
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,760
of things in a worldly sense.
543
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,720
Because John isn't worldly.
He's very ambitious, but he isn't worldly.
544
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,520
Since early childhood,
545
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,200
physical pain caused by stress
had been a constant in John's life
546
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,600
and alcohol had been his escape route.
547
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,000
Now meditation was his savior,
but how did he come to it?
548
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,280
I was kicked in the mouth
by a chief screw.
549
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,120
Kicked my front teeth in,
so I was charged with disobeying an order
550
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,840
and I got 14 days solitary confinement.
551
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,800
There was nothing in the cell,
in the solitary cells,
552
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,440
and I lay on the floor
and my breath started to slow down.
553
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,080
Well, I had to concentrate on it,
554
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,960
because I didn't have anything else
to think about.
555
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,840
I was in pain,
and became aware of my breathing
556
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,320
and gradually it was easing,
and I was getting calmer and calmer,
557
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,680
and it went on for a few hours.
558
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,360
I didn't think any high philosophy
about it or anything like that.
559
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,040
I just thought, "This, this is all right.
I just-- it's all I can do."
560
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,159
I didn't think so--
561
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,920
I didn't attach anything else to it,
except it was doing me a favor then.
562
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,760
After I come out, of course,
I didn't need it. I forgot about it.
563
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:27,800
When I was playing chess,
564
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,440
I realized that I wasn't familiar
with the word "relaxation,"
565
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:32,960
but I knew I was lacking something
566
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,400
compared to the other people,
all those chess players.
567
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:36,719
They were more calm.
568
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,199
But then I happen to find
a book in a library.
569
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,600
It was called the Art of Relaxation.
570
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,520
It said screw your hands
around like that, very simple.
571
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,080
And screw that and screw your leg,
and I was doing this.
572
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,920
I was doing this for about
three months and nothing happened.
573
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,719
And I thought,
"Oh, well, this is rubbish."
574
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,800
"This is middle class stuff.
It may work for them."
575
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,320
"It ain't working for me."
576
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,040
And one night, I was laying in bed
and my body shot up straight,
577
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,760
and I started laughing
and crying and everything
578
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,480
and it was hysterical, really.
579
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,400
But the-- that was a there was a lot--
580
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,280
that must have been
a lot of tension being released.
581
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,080
It just sprung like that.
582
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,520
I must have been full of it,
and the-- so after that I was hooked.
583
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,160
I've had many talks with John about yoga.
584
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:30,160
We used to go together
to meditation groups in the early days.
585
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:33,120
And most people
go to a yoga class once a week,
586
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,720
but for John, it's a way of life.
587
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,600
Yes, I do it daily,
but sometimes it's deep
588
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,800
and most times it's not,
because of the unsatisfactoriness
589
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,040
you feel of life.
590
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,120
Depression and anxiety disorder.
Stuff like that.
591
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,040
All the stuff that gets in the way?
592
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,920
Well, because of the life I've had it's--
593
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:04,040
it's like a little bit-- Most people
would think it was a bit extreme.
594
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,760
He has a destiny,
and we believe-- through the yoga,
595
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,720
we believe in karma
and completing karma in a lifetime
596
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,880
is important to be able to then
move on clear, in a clear sense.
597
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,720
Move on from your karma
that you've had in this life
598
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:24,040
and the belief system is that if you
haven't completed your karma,
599
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,080
you then have to come back and…
600
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,400
re-- redo what you've missed out on.
601
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,480
-That's me, that's my mum.
-Yeah. Of course.
602
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,760
-That's my brother, Terry.
-Mm-hmm.
603
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,000
That's my sister Bernadette.
604
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,600
You know, that's Dermot,
605
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,000
the youngest, he was the baby,
and that's my sister Philomena.
606
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,120
Terry lives over at manor house,
607
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,320
And, um, Dermot lives in Essex.
608
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,600
And Bernadette and Philomena
are in Australia,
609
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,800
married and got grown-up kids.
610
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,800
This is where our house used to be.
611
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,840
Just there, they're the flats over there,
612
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,760
where on the top,
I used to go at that nursery.
613
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,200
There was a slide
614
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,600
and when I got on the top of the slide
I could see my house
615
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,440
and I wanted to go home so…
616
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,000
But you couldn't get out--
I couldn't open the gate,
617
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,600
for somehow they had a shield across it.
618
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,160
But one day,
I'd seen one of the teachers coming,
619
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:38,480
so I knew what I would do then, so I…
620
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,960
When no one was looking,
I put my hand through and got out.
621
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,200
And I was wandering around,
and I was found by the police,
622
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,520
you know, brought to the police station.
623
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,280
And my mum come frantic with worry
to collect me, yeah.
624
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,480
So they put a lock
on that door proper then,
625
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,320
so I could never escape my childhood.
626
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,280
My father didn't look like
he would harm anyone.
627
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:03,880
He had nice brown eyes
628
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,680
and when he laughed
you could see all of his perfect teeth.
629
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,520
He never laughed with me though.
630
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,040
Instead, whatever I did or said,
he would tell me to shut my mouth.
631
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,400
Well, we'd come down here,
632
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,680
me and my dad, when I was about six
or something and he had a puppy
633
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,080
on a bit of string, and um…
634
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,240
it started to snow.
635
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,120
Um, we took shelter under the bridge here.
636
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:31,920
And a policeman come by.
637
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:37,000
His helmet and tunic all white
with snowflake, and he made as if to stop,
638
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,080
uh, then nodded curtly
at my father and walked on.
639
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,560
And I looked at my father.
He looked worried and…
640
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,360
At six years of age,
641
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:46,920
it's difficult to know
what adults are thinking,
642
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,000
so I asked.
643
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,200
I said, "Haven't you got a dog license,
dad, or something?"
644
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,240
And his eyes turned back on his head.
645
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,400
I looked at my father's face,
and he drew back and hit me in the face,
646
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:00,520
knocked me to the ground.
647
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,760
I was full of blood and snot and slobber
and even crying.
648
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,520
He pulled me back up, he said,
649
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,160
shoved a hanky at me, and said,
"What are you crying for?" He says…
650
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,440
"Pack up that crying now," he says,
651
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,280
"or I'll tell your mother
what a tyrant you-you are."
652
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,960
I didn't know what a tyrant was
or how I'd become one.
653
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,960
Yeah, that was a long time ago.
It was a fucking cold day.
654
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,560
I think it was 1947. I'm not sure,
and that was a bad winter.
655
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,440
Ireland had long been
a place of refuge for John.
656
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,840
First as a child
escaping from the London he hated,
657
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,880
and later as an adult fugitive
from justice.
658
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,360
Going a ways a bit.
This road goes to Boyle.
659
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,160
So this is the road
we would have come when I was a kid.
660
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,320
Yeah, with the coster's car.
661
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,480
We used to come home
and spend all our school holidays here.
662
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,880
But the thing was
you didn't want to go back to London.
663
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,280
You know they used to drag us
to the train screaming.
664
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,520
Because none of us
wanted to go back to London.
665
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,360
We felt safe here in Ireland,
secure, you know.
666
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,880
Christ,
it didn't used to look like this.
667
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,000
-The gate open for us.
-Oh, that's neat.
668
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,320
Look at the side,
at the ditches, eh.
669
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,400
Like the olden days. Look at the old--
670
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,000
What we've got to do is
find out where he's hidden the money
671
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,920
and get the shovel and start digging.
672
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,040
Never mind that.
I wanna see the chickens.
673
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,360
What chickens?
674
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,280
It's just the same. Welcome to Brougher.
675
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,000
The last time John saw his Uncle Dominic
676
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,440
was when he was in his teens,
677
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,920
AWOL and on the run from the British Army.
678
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,480
Hello.
679
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,560
Hello, Dominic, how are you, man?
680
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,600
-Welcome home.
-All right, man.
681
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,360
-Welcome home.
-Oh, boy.
682
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,280
Are we going out?
683
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:06,880
You go in, Dominic.
684
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,240
-I'll just show you--
-Push you along--
685
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,400
No, no, I just want
to show them the buildings.
686
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,000
Oh yeah.
687
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,560
From the age of two,
I'll be brought over
688
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,680
and left with my grandmother in Ireland.
689
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,440
There's a sort of calmness
that seems to come out of the grass,
690
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,720
and the ditches and the mossy banks.
691
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,960
Everywhere was so green.
692
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,960
I used to walk about slowly.
693
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,080
My back still pained me,
but not nearly so much as in the city.
694
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:42,760
My God.
695
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,280
What was it like coming here from being
in the middle of London, being in Camden?
696
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,240
Well, it was like coming
to a dream place, wasn't it?
697
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,760
I suppose you'd call it now
like to a, a theme park
698
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,520
or an adventure playground.
699
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,240
Did you have
to do jobs around the place
700
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,000
-when you were a kid here?
-Yeah, you always have to do work.
701
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,840
A bit of work when you're a kid.
I mean, on a farm.
702
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,720
You do it because they're clever
at getting you to do it.
703
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,600
You know, they keep praising you up
704
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,680
and telling you you're a great man
and a strong man.
705
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,200
And then you want to lift more
and do everything,
706
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,480
and "I'll leave you the land."
707
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,080
And think, "Oh, wow."
When there's someone tells you
708
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,520
they're going to leave you
a vast lands at the age of seven,
709
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,120
you work harder.
710
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,320
Well, it's very straight.
711
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,080
-God bless all here. Hello, Jimmy.
-Hello.
712
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,280
Of course, I have got no headaches.
713
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,920
I remember we were rationing.
714
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,200
When was the last time
you saw each other? It's a while?
715
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,080
It was about 45 years ago
when-- yeah.
716
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:51,920
Was John much use around the farm?
717
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,440
He rather did, had a great interest in it.
718
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,360
-Was he interested in?
-Getting the land.
719
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,760
Did you ever think
of staying here for good and living here?
720
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,760
I would have liked to.
When I was young, I wanted to.
721
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,560
That's my dream, but of course
it couldn't work out, you know.
722
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,920
You should have found
a girl with a dowry.
723
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:22,440
Everybody was after that.
I don't, I don't think the girls.
724
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:24,680
would get the land.
725
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,680
There was always some brother involved.
726
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,120
Oh yeah.
727
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,200
-You have to get rid of the brothers.
-Actually…
728
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,280
-Oh, my God, now we're…
729
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,920
Now we're building up the crime so…
730
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:45,080
I got 20… I got 20 serious previous
without that, without murder.
731
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,680
When you had to leave,
that was a savage, heart-breaking thing.
732
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,160
I didn't want to leave it.
Just screaming, crying and everything.
733
00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:02,360
And they used to pull tricks,
you know, my aunties,
734
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,520
and that, trying to get me to--
get me to go.
735
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,160
And then you'd find out you was kidnapped.
You'd be back in London.
736
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:19,800
I was brought up to believe
737
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,480
that bravery was
the essence of everything.
738
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,280
And so you just fought and drank
739
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,680
and slept rough
and didn't complain about it.
740
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,000
But when I learned that I was an alcoholic
741
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,960
and I'd seen a better life
742
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,680
I thought, you know,
I'd rather have a normal life then,
743
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,480
where I could think and not be drunk.
744
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:50,600
At first I was living
in a bed and breakfast.
745
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,880
I was living there for quite some time
and then eventually I went back home.
746
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,680
When John went back
to live with his mother,
747
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,560
it was for selfish reasons.
He wanted, he needed somewhere to live,
748
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,760
and she was delighted to see him.
749
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,560
She thought he'd been dead for 10 years.
750
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,760
She was certainly shocked
when she opened the door to see me,
751
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,360
and of course,
had to be a certain amount of, um…
752
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,840
suspicion that I-I--
had I really given it up?
753
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,760
After a while,
she sees that I was off the drink.
754
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,560
I mean, she was delighted,
that she thought was a miracle.
755
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,760
My mother got ill.
756
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,720
She got Alzheimer's, and I was…
757
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,280
looking after her.
I was looking after her for a few years.
758
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,840
He said to me that, um,
759
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:50,280
he felt that that was his duty
to look after his mother, but also…
760
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,360
he said at one point
that he loved his mother,
761
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:54,960
which he'd never ever--
762
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,080
I never heard him say that before.
He'd never…
763
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,520
expressed that he could love,
in a way, love anybody.
764
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,080
She died from the Alzheimer's and…
765
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,400
soon after that I started writing.
766
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,600
John completedThe Grass Arenain 1986.
767
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,720
He was doing manual labor at the time
768
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,360
and his only connection
to the literary world was a woman he met
769
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,280
while cutting grass
at a cancer therapy center.
770
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:24,960
The photographer, Jo Spence.
771
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,680
I just reminded me
that I brought something to show you.
772
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,200
It's a book that I found.
773
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,040
Oh, Jo Spence, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
774
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,800
Is that Jo when she was ill?
That was lymph cancer.
775
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,080
Christ almighty, death, eh?
776
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,280
Well, have you seen
the photographs before?
777
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,280
-'Cause I never saw them until I saw that.
-I have seen them before, yeah.
778
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,680
Oh, no, I couldn't have seen…
I've seen these photos in the front,
779
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,800
but I never seen the end ones
because she was…
780
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,800
This is when she deteriorated.
781
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,360
It's a pity.
782
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:02,640
That's Jo, eh?
783
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:10,240
How did you meet her?
784
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,080
I was doing the garden
for these therapists, actually…
785
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,440
and she used to speak to me
going in and out.
786
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,240
I told her
that I got a bit of script of, you know,
787
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,800
The Grass Arena,
and she said, "Let me see it."
788
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:25,960
And she thought it was the…
789
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,240
best thing she's ever read.
It was terrific.
790
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,280
Jo was working
at the British Film Institute,
791
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,720
and she put the manuscript
into Colin McCabe.
792
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,120
He was the head
of the British Film Institute at the time.
793
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,760
I remember she handed me
this huge typed script.
794
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,640
I remember taking it home one weekend
and I started reading it,
795
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,520
and I just read the first page,
which is that incredible account
796
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,160
of his father's brutality to him.
797
00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:59,000
And the… Well, I didn't stop.
798
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,600
Colin McCabe was on the board
of directors at Faber and Faber
799
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,320
He brought the manuscript to them.
800
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,000
The manuscript was physically,
as it were, a mess.
801
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:14,280
Um, I mean, it looked like it had been
sleeping rough as it were or…
802
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,600
Uh, maybe John had been putting it
inside his underwear to keep warm
803
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,120
and he'd been sleeping rough.
804
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,120
What struck me when I first read it
was how well written it was
805
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,440
for someone who was doing it from scratch.
806
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,520
It was really out of this world.
807
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,240
It was edgy. It had an immediate impact.
808
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,240
It absolutely deserved to be published.
809
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,080
The Grass Arenawas published
by Faber and Faber in 1988
810
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:39,360
to immediate acclaim.
811
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,680
There's a bit of a surprise.
It's a shock, really.
812
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,680
You see-see a book
and your name on it and all that.
813
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:51,920
It's quite, it's quite,
it's quite exciting. Very exciting, yeah.
814
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,800
The Grass Arena is a one-off book.
815
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,160
It's phenomenally special.
816
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:58,160
I'm phenomenally proud
of having published it.
817
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:01,520
Um, you know, and that's from somebody
who published hundreds of books.
818
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,520
It's one of the sort of as it were
top ten, top 15 books
819
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:05,600
that I've ever published.
820
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,160
One of the things
that runs through your book
821
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:13,120
is that you're looking
for a woman all the time.
822
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,600
I mean, how is that aspect
of your life today?
823
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:23,080
-You happy?
-Yeah, yeah.
824
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,040
…to describe is,
is a world of violence.
825
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:28,440
How close have you personally…
826
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,200
Drink and petty crime
soon reduced John
827
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,040
to a life of living rough in London.
828
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,800
…national press to his credit.
829
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,680
-He became an alcoholic at school.
-You did not love?
830
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,000
Don't think so.
831
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,360
He had a hangover.
832
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,560
That's the least that they could do.
833
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,080
The book went from curiosity
to phenomenon, selling in its thousands
834
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,600
and winning Britain's top prize
for literary autobiography.
835
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,880
I got a phone call.
A posh voice asked me if I was…
836
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:03,640
John Healy,
837
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:06,320
and said it was,
she said, "You'll be pleased to know
838
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,600
that you are this year's winner
of the JR Ackerley Award."
839
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,680
I thought this might be someone
having a joke with me,
840
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:18,360
so I said-- I thought I said,
"I hope this isn't a Mickey Mouse prize."
841
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,200
She said, "Oh, good gosh, no."
842
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,560
She said, "Anthony Burgess
was last year's winner."
843
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,480
She said, "You're in good company."
844
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,040
So I said,
"I hope it's a lot better company
845
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,080
than the last lot I was in."
846
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,520
The book was filmed in 1991,
winning several prizes,
847
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,760
including the Michael Powell Award
for Best British Feature.
848
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,280
For the first time in his difficult life,
John Healy was a success.
849
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:53,640
I was just writing, writing.
I had a relationship with a woman…
850
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,640
And life was just kind of a…
851
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,120
There was some semblance of normality.
852
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,160
John's publisher, Faber and Faber,
853
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,000
had never really been known
for having ex-winos on their roster.
854
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,920
It must have been for him
an even bigger culture shock,
855
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,680
meeting me and my colleagues at Faber
856
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,240
than it was for me meeting him.
857
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:25,920
I mean, we thought that we were kind
of cutting-edge, radical, new voices,
858
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,680
but actually we…
when-when the new voice showed up,
859
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,720
we didn't know what to do with it,
actually.
860
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,320
He was an angry figure.
861
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,480
He was an embittered figure,
862
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,960
and he was somebody
who felt the system was against him.
863
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:42,240
Well, it wasn't against him actively,
864
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,960
but it was sort of by definition
very foreign to him.
865
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,720
As far as I was concerned, it was a--
It was a marriage made in heaven,
866
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,360
and then it turned
into a divorce made in hell.
867
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,960
But I didn't really understand
the-the process
868
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,000
by which one turned to the other.
869
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,440
What happened next
ended John Healy's writing career.
870
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,520
But no two people seem to agree
on what it actually was that happened.
871
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:19,760
I went in there,
threatening with an action,
872
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,160
and they pulled me out of print.
873
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:23,400
They said, "Oh, that cunt's
gone back to his old roots.
874
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,280
"He never changed at all, eh?
That girl that was with him is lucky
875
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,400
she never got her head rolled up,
presented with her head in the morning
876
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:30,760
in the carrier bag."
877
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,080
Having read the story,
knowing that that was his story,
878
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,640
I was before the first meeting,
undoubtedly wary.
879
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:42,640
I mean, it is 20 odd years ago,
but I can certainly remember that.
880
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,200
When he arrived, I felt I had reason
to be wary to some extent.
881
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,560
He would occasionally re-enact
882
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,680
some of the events
that he was describing in the book,
883
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,280
and some of them
were fairly violent events.
884
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,800
And I remember I had a long narrow office
885
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:04,200
and my desk and my chair
were down the window end,
886
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,120
so he would be sitting
between me and the door
887
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,960
uh, and from time to time
that did actually cross my mind
888
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,280
when he would,
as it were, jump up and say,
889
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,440
"Uh, you know,
and I was up at the Whitestone--
890
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,840
"Whitestone Pond,
and I had a hammer in my hand
891
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,040
and I hid behind the tree
'cause they were coming after me."
892
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:22,200
And he would be jumping up
893
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,600
and running around my room
re-enacting this.
894
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,920
And it was fantastically vivid
895
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,440
and to some extent,
I have to say, pretty alarming.
896
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,400
I left Faber in 1990
897
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,160
and had very little of a sort
of ongoing connection with the book.
898
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:40,080
What are your memories
of the conflict that arose with Fabers?
899
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,400
Well, none, actually.
900
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:44,920
Haven't I told you this before?
901
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,200
I have no memory of it at all,
because I mean--
902
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,720
I mean, apart from the fact
it became this kind of--
903
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,360
My only recollection of it
is it was a joke.
904
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,160
An in-house joke,
there was a man who wanted to--
905
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,200
Well, there was a writer,
and then this is what got into the papers.
906
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,880
There was a writer
who wanted to kill the chairman,
907
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:04,840
which you can see,
it could become an office joke.
908
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,320
But I have no other recollection of it.
909
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,120
Robert McCrum was
editor-in-chief at Faber and Faber
910
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,720
from 1979 to 1995.
911
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,360
We had a policy of having the door open,
912
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,520
you know, the house
was very open to people
913
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,360
to come in and, and talk to us
about their work.
914
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:21,440
So anyone could come in
915
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,160
and there was a kind of tremendous traffic
of people come in and out.
916
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:26,280
And he was-- I think
he had been encouraged to come in.
917
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,800
I couldn't get near them,
they wouldn't speak to me on the phone.
918
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,040
They never used to speak to me or meet me.
919
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,080
He was very angry with the place,
and he came in
920
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,280
he-- and he caused a scene,
that's my recollection,
921
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,400
um, in the foyer.
922
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:42,720
But I wasn't there when it happened,
923
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:47,040
and I just I think what must have happened
was he demanded his money to be paid,
924
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,120
and he-he was told
he couldn't have the money
925
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,080
by somebody quite junior downstairs.
926
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,000
Now the head of fiction at Osborne Books,
927
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,000
Megan Larkin was
just starting out in publishing
928
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,560
when she went to work at Fabers in 1989.
929
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,160
I suppose when I found you,
out of the blue and said,,
930
00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:04,560
"Do you, mind, you know,
speaking about John Healy?"
931
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,800
What was her first reaction when,
when you heard that?
932
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,760
The first thing was an immediate rush
of memory of that one phone call
933
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,120
and that, that particular situation,
and I--
934
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,160
Suddenly, very strong memories
came flooding back.
935
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,560
You know,
it was a major experience for me now.
936
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,720
Now, 20 years on,
it suddenly felt very fresh and real.
937
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,440
I can picture where I was having
that phone conversation
938
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,080
and just getting the feeling
939
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,920
that no one else would talk
to him on the phone.
940
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,360
So I was, so to say,
his sort of last port of call.
941
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,400
I was talking
to the translation rights woman
942
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,920
who was a fr-friend,
friend to me, and I told her,
943
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,360
I said, "I'd like to chop
their heads up with an axe,"
944
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,080
and she said, "Don't say that,
John, you know."
945
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,160
I said, "Yeah, do say that."
And I was quite…
946
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:55,960
I was quite stressed out at a time.
947
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,000
I probably was having a breakdown,
like a ment-- you know,
948
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:00,400
and I was fighting it.
949
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,080
I felt that he was a man
sort of at the end of his tether almost.
950
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:05,440
He was very…
951
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:07,760
very aggressive.
952
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,320
I mean, sort of ranting, I think.
953
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:16,400
And I was, I think, just making
soothing noises and trying to…
954
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:17,600
sort of calm him down.
955
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,040
She said, "Don't say that,"
and I said, "No, no, tell him,"
956
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:26,560
and I insisted and the poor woman,
you know, she-she-she liked me,
957
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,600
but she was trying
to protect me, obviously.
958
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:33,800
But she-she went and conveyed
the threat through her to them.
959
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,480
Probably deep down,
I didn't think he would do it.
960
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:42,400
I felt that this conversation was probably
his way of dealing with these feelings,
961
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:44,520
but obviously you know,
knowing the sort of background
962
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,000
that he came from and his whole attitude,
963
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,800
you had to take it seriously.
964
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,520
So that's when they called the police.
965
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:54,440
From our point of view
966
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:56,480
the rights department,
he started questioning things
967
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,920
and asking, you know, where his money was.
968
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,480
Or, you know, just trying to understand,
I think, what was going on.
969
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:07,160
Because of his demeanor
and his way of going about things,
970
00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:09,320
I think they probably found it
quite threatening
971
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:10,840
and didn't know how to deal with him,
972
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,360
so they just sort of closed the,
the shutters, closed ranks on him.
973
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,720
With my publishing experience now,
974
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,720
I say I don't think
his actual concerns and questions
975
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:22,840
were anything out of the ordinary, really,
976
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,880
so I think they should have been able
to be dealt with in a…
977
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,680
you know, yeah,
in a more sort of calm and open way,
978
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,760
but that, that's where I felt, uh,
979
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:38,880
the sort of social gulf came into force
and-and was the problem.
980
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,120
It appeared on the front page
of The Guardian.
981
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,360
The next morning.
982
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:51,360
They put the elitist publisher
or something and lowlife author,
983
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:57,200
they seemed to be the dream team,
had a falling out and what a falling out!
984
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,840
Their answer was
to immediately put me out of print.
985
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,760
From being a genius, the week before,
I was a smiling psychopath…
986
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,720
…the next week.
987
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,080
Quickly how--
Shows how quickly they can change,
988
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:15,320
and so then no publisher in Britain
would touch me.
989
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:20,280
We have 1,422 copies
of The Grass Arena in stock
990
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,920
and with the exception of 500 copies,
these should be destroyed
991
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,400
and the book answered out of print.
992
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,440
As a magnanimous gesture,
we are giving 500 copies to John Healy.
993
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,720
The Grass Arena was to remain out of print
994
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,000
and unobtainable for more than 15 years.
995
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,120
The row that grew up
between John and Faber
996
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:45,040
was incredibly damaging to his future
as a writer, because, um…
997
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:47,880
it promulgated the myth
998
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,360
that he was someone
who was impossible to work with.
999
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,680
But a lot of the accusations
that were made
1000
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,720
about his behavior made him
look like a very scary person.
1001
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,600
My recollection is that
it was an embarrassment.
1002
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:03,200
It was awkward.
1003
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:05,160
And it was upsetting.
1004
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,760
This is a story that was created
by the media in 1980, whatever it was.
1005
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:15,000
and time has passed and here we are again.
You know, we're eating our, our tail.
1006
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:17,320
And that's what it's really about.
1007
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:19,560
John keeps an archive of things
1008
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:21,840
that that he remembers,
and that was something
1009
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,400
that he showed me that I thought was--
that I was very touched by.
1010
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,240
"I hope you find
a brilliant publisher for your next book.
1011
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:31,320
"What I really mean is
1012
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,760
that I'm very pleased for you
to be free from Faber,
1013
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,680
but I can't put that in a letter
which will go in our files. Megan."
1014
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:38,800
Oh!
1015
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,240
Wha…
1016
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:44,080
Right?
1017
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:46,520
Do you remember writing that?
1018
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,400
Interesting, no, I don't, but, um,
1019
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:51,720
I'm pleased that I did.
1020
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,720
Uh, confirms that…
1021
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,920
we had a sort of personal connection.
1022
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,600
And that's-- Yes, he, he and I…
1023
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:09,520
did-- I said I'd always sympathized
with him and felt that I was on his side.
1024
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:10,640
Um…
1025
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,920
And I'm glad
that we sort of followed that through
1026
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:16,680
and maintained that connection.
1027
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,080
I-I think that John's
exclusion from the literary world
1028
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,160
was entirely about class.
1029
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:34,560
He went straight from prison
to a lauded autobiography,
1030
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:39,600
and he didn't have any
of, of the rest of the grammar
1031
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:44,720
about literary writing
or about, uh, social mores.
1032
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,200
In 2004, Robert McCrum
wrote an overview of his career at Faber
1033
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:50,760
for the Observer's Book section.
1034
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,480
The Observer ran, I think, a piece by you,
1035
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,840
which was a review of your career
with Faber. Do you remember?
1036
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,160
Yes, I do, yes, yes.
1037
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,920
And do you remember
the lead into that piece though?
1038
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:03,000
No.
1039
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,600
Because the opening paragraph
was about this actual event.
1040
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:06,960
-Really?
-It just led into it.
1041
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:09,920
It was with reference
to the fact that "John Healy
1042
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,080
had threatened myself and Matthew Evans."
1043
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,600
-Right, yes.
-Signed it under your bylaw.
1044
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:18,120
Well, that's, I mean, artistic license.
1045
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,360
I don't, I mean, I mean, I don't--
1046
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,840
I mean, that was, that was, what was
described in-in-in the Guardian.
1047
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:26,640
-Mm-hmm.
-Um, so I was really just quoting the--
1048
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,800
so here what I was doing
was responding to the press story.
1049
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:31,080
I don't recall…
1050
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,600
I mean, neither of us
were ever threatened physically,
1051
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:34,920
except in words.
1052
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:40,680
April 2007, and The Observer
newspaper's Browser column warns
1053
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,640
that 65-year-old John Healy
is still potentially dangerous.
1054
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:47,920
The column is edited by Robert McCrum,
1055
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,320
but neither he nor The Observer
can confirm who wrote the piece.
1056
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,760
I can't stress too strongly
that this was a tiny, tiny episode.
1057
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,440
I mean, it really was a minute episode
1058
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,520
in my mind, in the mind of the business,
1059
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,480
um, and obviously,
not for, not for The Guardian but--
1060
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,240
and clearly for John,
it was very important.
1061
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,280
But I think it's something which is almost
apocryphal actually…
1062
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,080
So there you are.
1063
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,640
It's a kind of little--
It's almost like an urban myth.
1064
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,000
Though his first book
had been a runaway success,
1065
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,280
no other publisher in Britain would agree
to take on The Grass Arena
1066
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,760
or any of John Healy's unpublished books.
1067
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:28,960
From now on, he was to be an untouchable.
1068
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,800
I was very angry at first,
and then despair sets in and…
1069
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:36,560
In the end, we just…
1070
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,960
I packed up trying,
so, eh, I was finished.
1071
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:46,120
Despite his best efforts
from 1992 to 2007,
1072
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,160
not one word written
by John Healy was published.
1073
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,480
He went into this barren period.
1074
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,680
Everything just went dead
for about 10 years.
1075
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:58,920
I think he gave up.
I think he almost gave up.
1076
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,320
Post-traumatic stress is
usually associated with, um, combatants,
1077
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,720
but I wouldn't be considered
that or anyone
1078
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,520
that was in The Grass Arena
or any grass arena.
1079
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:22,440
We're combatants,
but not military combatants or soldiers.
1080
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,680
We were fighting for ourselves,
1081
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:30,840
and I suppose all through the--
all the previous life, fighting against--
1082
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:34,280
I suppose drink is fighting
against depression, really,
1083
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:35,480
when you're young and that.
1084
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:39,320
All through life,
say 50 years or more of it,
1085
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:41,080
it comes with a head in the end.
1086
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:45,880
You can't just fight all the time,
and it sort of had a detrimental effect.
1087
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,600
It sort of went in,
and I was getting depression.
1088
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:56,400
You lose interest in everything
and nothing works.
1089
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,680
You can't see any future.
That is basically it.
1090
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:01,160
You can go on and on about it,
1091
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:05,560
but basically there's no future,
and there's a fear that you can't grasp.
1092
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,280
It's like… Isolation brings it on bad.
1093
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:12,120
I don't come out on top of it.
1094
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,160
It completely debilitates you,
1095
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,840
and it's hurtful and painful,
and I suffer from it.
1096
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:24,360
There it is. Right, it'll be written off…
1097
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,480
-Yeah.
-…from Jo, Jo Spence.
1098
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,880
She writes,
"When the only tool you have is a hammer,
1099
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,480
"all your problems look like nails.
1100
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:36,240
Jo."
1101
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:39,760
In 1992,
1102
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,360
the woman who had first brought
The Grass Arena to attention,
1103
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,520
Jo Spence, succumbed to cancer.
1104
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,520
She wouldn't see me
for a few years.
1105
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:53,480
When she found out
about the other woman, Linda, she puts…
1106
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:56,360
I don't remember, do I?
1107
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,960
But she did speak to me
towards the end on the phone,
1108
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:01,760
yeah, and she said, "Look after yourself."
1109
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:05,880
I thought, "Look after myself?"
And she's dying, so--
1110
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,440
And she said, "You've-You've crossed
unfamiliar galaxies
1111
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,560
to reach this--
to get this far," she said.
1112
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,800
"But you know," she says,
"you're in with the middle class
1113
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:16,920
and they are the most--
1114
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,120
you'll find they are
the most dangerous enemies
1115
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:20,880
you've come up against yet."
1116
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:23,520
"Be careful," you know.
1117
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,400
But I-I agree with her. She was right.
1118
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:29,680
Yeah, I mean,
it sounds like…
1119
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:31,480
I mean, the fact that she didn't talk
to you for a long time.
1120
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,000
I mean, it obviously meant a lot to her
1121
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,360
if she's going to call you
from her dying bed, you know.
1122
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:37,680
It's a time in your life
when you think about the people
1123
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,960
that are important to you,
so you were obviously important to her.
1124
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,400
Yeah, and I said--
well, I was told by other people
1125
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,040
and you can cut the details.
1126
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,640
"You'd be alright to come to the funeral.
You can come to the funeral."
1127
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:53,280
But I didn't wanna go
to the funeral because…
1128
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,400
When someone's dead,
that's-that's the end of it, you know.
1129
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:10,800
Sounds like she had a lot of time for you.
1130
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:12,240
You know that's all I'm saying.
1131
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,400
Oh, yeah, we were very close, yeah.
1132
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,600
-In the beginning.
-Yeah.
1133
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:21,760
But, um…
1134
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:38,120
What about, um…
1135
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:40,640
This, I was thinking…
1136
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,480
Oh, yeah, well,
this was what I was on about.
1137
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:49,760
Uh…
1138
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:03,320
We were nearly at the end of filming.
1139
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,120
And at times John seemed
just as difficult to communicate with
1140
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,160
as he'd been the first day I met him.
1141
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,560
There was sometimes the sense
you were walking on egg shells around him,
1142
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:18,240
no matter how well
we knew each other at this stage.
1143
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:23,240
I do feel like I'm intruding
on your life, you know, sometimes,
1144
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:25,680
you know, when I'm sitting here
when I'm talking to you.
1145
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:27,320
With the camera on and off,
1146
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,000
you're two different,
very different people.
1147
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:32,120
Yeah. Well, I suppose…
1148
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:39,800
it's-- I've been
in so many interrogation rooms.
1149
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,600
I've-I've-I've got a technique
1150
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,200
for not committing myself.
1151
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:54,080
And so it's very hard to get out of that.
1152
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,560
-Wait, why do you? Why is that?
1153
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,840
Well, I suppose it's the life I've led.
1154
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,360
You was like completely outlawed.
1155
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,800
You could be arrested
for anything, um, fitted up.
1156
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,880
Fitted up for, you know, life even
1157
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:16,279
with anything and…
…accused of anything.
1158
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:17,520
And, um…
1159
01:08:18,359 --> 01:08:21,080
so you become defensive, suppose.
1160
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:23,000
And…
1161
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:27,840
It's just something I can't help.
1162
01:08:28,399 --> 01:08:30,120
That's-That's how I am.
1163
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,399
Well, in the four years
that I've been sort of filming with you,
1164
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:45,479
a lot has happened.
1165
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:47,399
I mean, who knows what's going to happen
in the next year?
1166
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:48,920
-Yeah.
-If there's one thing
1167
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,479
that you wanted to happen
more than anything else, what would it be?
1168
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:56,160
Uh…
1169
01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:00,800
I'd like to get recognition for my work
and get it all published.
1170
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:06,319
John had nothing,
then everything, then nothing again.
1171
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:08,600
How does anybody deal with that?
1172
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:11,600
I began to realize
1173
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:14,680
that his spiritual beliefs were
a major part of the puzzle.
1174
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:18,399
I was reminded of a conversation
I'd had with him
1175
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:19,880
in the snow two years earlier.
1176
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:25,520
Since I've been practicing
meditation for a long time,
1177
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,279
I'd like to see how far you could go in…
1178
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:35,479
maybe transcending the mind
if you-- if you, you know,
1179
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:38,279
if you had no hassle
or anything like that.
1180
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:40,359
What?
Where would that get you?
1181
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,160
Well, the states of bliss
that we try to achieve
1182
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,319
through falling off and jumping off
a mountain right, right, or a plane.
1183
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:48,680
Well, playing there, a split second,
the mind has stopped.
1184
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,720
With the fear or…
Fear stops it or anything.
1185
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:58,520
All these or drink or drugs or LSD or acid
or whatever. All these things
1186
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,600
are just… artificial ways,
they don't last.
1187
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,360
They're not-- They're not true.
1188
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:10,400
The last question I'd wanna ask is when--
1189
01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:11,920
Remember when I came over when it snowed,
1190
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,720
and you said something
that really struck me,
1191
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:17,640
which is that your-your aim is
to transcend the rational mind.
1192
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:18,760
Yes.
1193
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,720
I would like to,
but I'm holding myself up, though.
1194
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:24,240
How's that?
1195
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:25,560
-Is that on?
-Yeah.
1196
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,840
Well, fancying them birds, you know?
1197
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:31,840
-No names, no petrol.
-Yeah.
1198
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:34,760
And on the way then you start,
1199
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:37,520
that-that-that holds you up,
takes you away.
1200
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:40,600
You-You gotta be totally centered when…
1201
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:47,160
like in the meditation
to-to-to still the mind
1202
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,400
for it to still,
you've gotta be totally centered.
1203
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:57,320
Even the thinking,
all the thinking, that's a problem too.
1204
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:02,000
Thinking, because the thoughts
are just like clouds going
1205
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:04,080
and they correct… they're nothing.
1206
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:05,800
They're just taking the energy.
1207
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:08,400
It's in the silence,
like in the meditation.
1208
01:11:08,480 --> 01:11:12,280
You transcend the thoughts,
and there's beauty in the stillness.
1209
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,160
Actually, there's ecstasy in it.
1210
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,120
This is surprising, really.
1211
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:20,840
There's nothing that you want.
1212
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:25,720
Till you come back out of it,
of course, with a bang.
1213
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:27,360
Then you want everything.
1214
01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:29,880
That's 'cause you haven't transcended,
of course.
1215
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:39,920
So what-what was it?
Was there something else?
1216
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:42,360
-No, I think that's it.
-Oh, yeah.
97106
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