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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:24,073 --> 00:00:26,151 We're talking about swinging, 2 00:00:26,175 --> 00:00:27,953 two couples who swing. Larry Levenson is here. 3 00:00:27,977 --> 00:00:30,088 He's owner of Plato's Retreat in New York City, 4 00:00:30,112 --> 00:00:32,791 an actual commercial establishment where people can go and swing. 5 00:00:32,815 --> 00:00:35,143 Some of the tenets of swingers 6 00:00:35,167 --> 00:00:37,546 include the separation of... What they say 7 00:00:37,570 --> 00:00:40,007 is the separation of sex and love. 8 00:00:40,339 --> 00:00:43,335 We promote social intercourse and sexual intercourse. 9 00:00:43,359 --> 00:00:45,410 Whatever you want to do, you can do. 10 00:00:47,113 --> 00:00:49,240 - Aren't you illegal? - No. No way. 11 00:00:49,264 --> 00:00:51,343 Sex is not illegal anyplace in New York. 12 00:00:51,367 --> 00:00:53,479 But I couldn't open a cathouse, could I? 13 00:00:53,503 --> 00:00:56,103 Well, that's paid sex. 14 00:01:04,413 --> 00:01:07,075 The '70s were a transitional period. 15 00:01:07,099 --> 00:01:09,878 It was when the ethic of the '60s took hold. 16 00:01:09,902 --> 00:01:13,415 1500 cops are injured. 17 00:01:13,439 --> 00:01:16,551 People were complaining New York had become a pit of vice. 18 00:01:16,575 --> 00:01:18,587 That contributed to disco 19 00:01:18,611 --> 00:01:21,623 and Plato's also played its part 20 00:01:21,647 --> 00:01:23,892 in suddenly turning things around in New York 21 00:01:23,916 --> 00:01:25,593 and making New York what it was... 22 00:01:25,617 --> 00:01:27,268 The most exciting city in the world. 23 00:01:29,304 --> 00:01:31,132 - ♪ you make me feel... ♪ - it was a party town. 24 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:33,084 1977 in New York was a fabulous year. 25 00:01:33,108 --> 00:01:34,953 Sexuality was in the air. 26 00:01:34,977 --> 00:01:37,205 Everybody was immensely curious. 27 00:01:37,229 --> 00:01:39,007 Lots and lots of heteros would go to the gay clubs 28 00:01:39,031 --> 00:01:40,675 just to look at the glory holes. 29 00:01:40,699 --> 00:01:43,778 And lots of people who were not remotely exhibitionistic would go to Plato's. 30 00:01:43,802 --> 00:01:46,181 Swing couples went there to swap. 31 00:01:46,205 --> 00:01:47,950 You try my wife and I'll try your wife. 32 00:01:47,974 --> 00:01:51,620 Forget about the sex. You could wander around. You could actually swim. 33 00:01:51,644 --> 00:01:55,090 You could eat this free third-rate buffet... 34 00:01:55,114 --> 00:01:59,017 which I always considered tempting, but dangerous. 35 00:02:01,554 --> 00:02:03,765 They had dancing. They had a show. 36 00:02:03,789 --> 00:02:06,751 I thought to myself, "this really can't be real. 37 00:02:06,775 --> 00:02:08,703 Maybe I'm watching a dirty movie." 38 00:02:08,727 --> 00:02:11,607 But it was a dirty movie that really came to life. 39 00:02:11,631 --> 00:02:15,593 Friends of mine said that they went there by looking at it on cable television. 40 00:02:15,617 --> 00:02:18,063 I was never in Plato's Retreat. 41 00:02:18,087 --> 00:02:21,767 I have no idea if they in fact took off... 42 00:02:21,791 --> 00:02:24,559 Other than clothing. 43 00:02:26,345 --> 00:02:29,324 10 years earlier everyone was rolling around naked 44 00:02:29,348 --> 00:02:32,060 in Woodstock, you know, 45 00:02:32,084 --> 00:02:36,264 and smoking pot and screwing their brains out, you know, 46 00:02:36,288 --> 00:02:37,932 in the meadows. 47 00:02:37,956 --> 00:02:41,426 So this was just an indoor version that was accessible to New Yorkers. 48 00:02:43,262 --> 00:02:46,574 I am Larry's sister. We were five years apart. 49 00:02:46,598 --> 00:02:48,527 We were very very close 50 00:02:48,551 --> 00:02:51,763 and we grew up as best friends. 51 00:02:51,787 --> 00:02:54,933 My parents had a very conventional lifestyle and marriage. 52 00:02:54,957 --> 00:02:57,186 My father was a hard-working man. 53 00:02:57,210 --> 00:02:59,104 He was in the kosher meat business. 54 00:02:59,128 --> 00:03:02,491 Oldest memories of Larry are as a... 55 00:03:02,515 --> 00:03:04,375 smiling young man, 56 00:03:04,399 --> 00:03:07,895 didn't really love the academic pursuits. 57 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,898 When I first met Larry, he had just gotten out of the service. 58 00:03:10,922 --> 00:03:14,435 He had told me that his father had a butcher shop 59 00:03:14,459 --> 00:03:17,305 and he was a wholesale distributer of briskets. 60 00:03:17,329 --> 00:03:19,157 And he would work nights. 61 00:03:19,181 --> 00:03:21,826 And I really feel that some of the times that he said 62 00:03:21,850 --> 00:03:24,162 he was working, he wasn't working. 63 00:03:24,186 --> 00:03:28,550 When he first married Gloria, I don't think any of us thought that it wouldn't last 64 00:03:28,574 --> 00:03:31,953 because we didn't know anybody who had separated or divorced. 65 00:03:31,977 --> 00:03:34,172 I thought he was cheating on me. 66 00:03:34,196 --> 00:03:37,893 My dad and my mom got divorced when I was six. 67 00:03:37,917 --> 00:03:40,262 So my dad really wasn't around a lot. 68 00:03:40,286 --> 00:03:42,897 My parents separated when I was very young. 69 00:03:42,921 --> 00:03:46,335 So my first recollection actually is when my dad used to work at McDonald's 70 00:03:46,359 --> 00:03:49,120 and he brought me the hamburglar... it was a little stuffed hamburglar. 71 00:03:49,144 --> 00:03:52,340 So that's what I used to sleep with... I used to sleep with a little hamburglar. 72 00:03:52,364 --> 00:03:54,626 All I can remember is through those years, 73 00:03:54,650 --> 00:03:57,362 my mother yelling at my father on the phone, "they're waiting for you. 74 00:03:57,386 --> 00:03:59,597 You didn't show up. You said you were coming." 75 00:03:59,621 --> 00:04:03,118 And of course every business that Larry was in was on the weekends. 76 00:04:03,142 --> 00:04:06,070 So the times when fathers would be with their children, 77 00:04:06,094 --> 00:04:08,924 Larry was either off selling sodas on the beach 78 00:04:08,948 --> 00:04:11,159 or preparing for swingers parties, 79 00:04:11,183 --> 00:04:13,261 wherever they might be held. 80 00:04:13,285 --> 00:04:15,881 I was very surprised when Larry was involved 81 00:04:15,905 --> 00:04:17,715 in that kind of lifestyle. 82 00:04:17,739 --> 00:04:21,419 I really didn't think that it was something that would be his thing to do. 83 00:04:21,443 --> 00:04:24,379 But maybe I just didn't know him that well. 84 00:04:29,234 --> 00:04:32,430 ♪ What's our favorite evening game? ♪ 85 00:04:32,454 --> 00:04:34,265 ♪ Night baseball? ♪ 86 00:04:34,289 --> 00:04:36,735 ♪ Oh, baby, you're all wet ♪ 87 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:40,371 ♪ let's swap partners is the name ♪ 88 00:04:40,395 --> 00:04:43,542 ♪ suburban roulette... ♪ 89 00:04:43,566 --> 00:04:46,211 You know what I don't like to see is this thing about you have to be monogamous. 90 00:04:46,235 --> 00:04:48,613 I say nobody's monogamous. And if you make somebody say 91 00:04:48,637 --> 00:04:50,782 that you're fucking monogamous and you're gonna be legitimate, 92 00:04:50,806 --> 00:04:52,717 "I married her. I'm never gonna fuck," I'm a liar. 93 00:04:52,741 --> 00:04:55,137 The swinging movement was very small 94 00:04:55,161 --> 00:04:57,039 and very secret. 95 00:04:57,063 --> 00:04:59,508 We all have jobs and we all pay mortgages. 96 00:04:59,532 --> 00:05:03,011 Just because we consider ourselves swingers, 97 00:05:03,035 --> 00:05:06,715 we're not freaks of nature. 98 00:05:06,739 --> 00:05:08,950 ♪ I love your sister ♪ 99 00:05:08,974 --> 00:05:10,352 ♪ tomorrow night... ♪ 100 00:05:10,376 --> 00:05:14,355 At a swing party, you can go, you can find... meet other people 101 00:05:14,379 --> 00:05:16,441 that maybe can meet some of your sexual needs 102 00:05:16,465 --> 00:05:18,360 that maybe your spouse can't. 103 00:05:18,384 --> 00:05:21,029 And yet you don't have to go out and cheat. 104 00:05:21,053 --> 00:05:24,615 Swinging is a situation where a man and a woman, 105 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:27,152 part of their sex life 106 00:05:27,176 --> 00:05:29,620 is to find other couples or other people 107 00:05:29,644 --> 00:05:31,555 that have similar interests, 108 00:05:31,579 --> 00:05:34,125 that they like socially, they like to be with, 109 00:05:34,149 --> 00:05:36,661 but in particular they want to have sex with. 110 00:05:36,685 --> 00:05:39,831 ♪ Suburban roulette... ♪ 111 00:05:39,855 --> 00:05:44,025 ♪ suburban roulette! ♪ 112 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:49,624 The meeting area was usually a bar 113 00:05:49,648 --> 00:05:54,563 that they took over for Friday, Saturday night. 114 00:05:54,587 --> 00:05:57,798 I worked as a waitress and some guys used to come in 115 00:05:57,822 --> 00:06:00,568 and they brought in "screw" magazine and I brought it home 116 00:06:00,592 --> 00:06:03,271 and I showed it to Charlie. 117 00:06:03,295 --> 00:06:07,108 - And that's all it took. - And there were all kinds of ads in it. 118 00:06:07,132 --> 00:06:11,379 - And we started to think about it. - Get interested. 119 00:06:11,403 --> 00:06:13,571 It was interesting. 120 00:06:17,226 --> 00:06:19,621 It was a place for them to dance, 121 00:06:19,645 --> 00:06:21,289 have a drink, meet each other. 122 00:06:21,313 --> 00:06:23,225 I remember it looked more like a Bar Mitzvah. 123 00:06:23,249 --> 00:06:27,062 ♪ Hey, little girl, get your dancing shoes ♪ 124 00:06:27,086 --> 00:06:28,630 ♪ gold satin jacket... ♪ 125 00:06:28,654 --> 00:06:32,099 I don't know anybody's last name in any of these places. 126 00:06:32,123 --> 00:06:34,836 And yet you can go home with them, make love to them, 127 00:06:34,860 --> 00:06:37,722 spend the weekend with them, kiss them goodbye... 128 00:06:37,746 --> 00:06:40,158 "see you next week, John, Mary. Bye-bye." 129 00:06:40,182 --> 00:06:43,328 And that's the end of it and you're best friends for life. 130 00:06:43,352 --> 00:06:45,647 People would be handing out slips that say, 131 00:06:45,671 --> 00:06:48,065 "okay, there's a party on the east side tonight." 132 00:06:48,089 --> 00:06:50,485 The only problem is when you're stoned, 133 00:06:50,509 --> 00:06:54,122 and I said, "Now I gotta go to Queens?" 134 00:06:54,146 --> 00:06:57,175 ♪ the roller coaster gotta make the most ♪ 135 00:06:57,199 --> 00:06:58,510 ♪ and dance dance dance... ♪ 136 00:06:58,534 --> 00:07:02,380 I met Larry Levenson at a party back in the mid-'70s 137 00:07:02,404 --> 00:07:04,249 in Coney Island, Brooklyn. 138 00:07:04,273 --> 00:07:07,918 And he started arranging some organized swing parties. 139 00:07:07,942 --> 00:07:10,188 He liked the idea 140 00:07:10,212 --> 00:07:13,274 of being able to have that scene out in the open 141 00:07:13,298 --> 00:07:15,109 the way gay bars did. 142 00:07:15,133 --> 00:07:17,712 It was a one-man band at the beginning. 143 00:07:17,736 --> 00:07:21,305 It was just him and Mary and maybe a couple of other people. 144 00:07:24,175 --> 00:07:26,420 Mary made all the phone calls. 145 00:07:26,444 --> 00:07:28,874 Mary did a lot of the footwork. 146 00:07:28,898 --> 00:07:31,593 Mary was actually responsible for putting together 147 00:07:31,617 --> 00:07:33,728 the logo of Plato's. 148 00:07:33,752 --> 00:07:36,831 The backward twos was Mary's idea. 149 00:07:36,855 --> 00:07:40,201 I'm going to ask you one of my favorite indiscreet questions. 150 00:07:40,225 --> 00:07:43,888 How did you and Larry meet? Now come on, the truth now. 151 00:07:43,912 --> 00:07:48,393 Well, I had come with another young man to Plato's 152 00:07:48,417 --> 00:07:50,328 in its first location. 153 00:07:50,352 --> 00:07:53,732 And I fell in love with him on the spot. 154 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:56,217 ♪ When I get home, babe... ♪ 155 00:07:56,241 --> 00:07:59,203 Mary and Larry were swingers 156 00:07:59,227 --> 00:08:01,472 And they started the club together. 157 00:08:01,496 --> 00:08:04,092 And it seemed like a perfect idea 158 00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:06,745 and a way to be close. 159 00:08:06,769 --> 00:08:08,947 So it was a family thing. 160 00:08:08,971 --> 00:08:11,532 ♪ I wanna kiss you all over... ♪ 161 00:08:11,556 --> 00:08:14,803 What did he say? Do you remember? 162 00:08:14,827 --> 00:08:16,621 Out with it! 163 00:08:16,645 --> 00:08:19,758 I was on my way to the ladies' room 164 00:08:19,782 --> 00:08:23,161 and he told me to come on in the water. 165 00:08:23,185 --> 00:08:25,229 And I told him I couldn't right then 166 00:08:25,253 --> 00:08:27,599 because I was on my way to the ladies' room. 167 00:08:27,623 --> 00:08:30,368 And he said, "come on in. The water's nice and warm 168 00:08:30,392 --> 00:08:32,170 and that's how it got that way." 169 00:08:32,194 --> 00:08:35,239 That's it, that's Larry... Mr. Taste. 170 00:08:35,263 --> 00:08:37,608 - You got to know Mary better than me... - Yes. 171 00:08:37,632 --> 00:08:41,279 Physically and mentally. 172 00:08:41,303 --> 00:08:45,166 That might have been your first female, I think. Really, huh? 173 00:08:45,190 --> 00:08:46,851 - No. - No? 174 00:08:46,875 --> 00:08:48,987 It mushroomed from there. 175 00:08:49,011 --> 00:08:50,855 Got ahold of a hotel... 176 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:54,292 This hotel basement pool area. 177 00:08:54,316 --> 00:08:56,244 Yeah, so this call came in from somebody... 178 00:08:56,268 --> 00:08:58,062 I don't remember who it is anymore, 179 00:08:58,086 --> 00:09:01,733 some friend or acquaintance and said, "there's this live sex club 180 00:09:01,757 --> 00:09:04,201 where people are having sex in front of everybody." 181 00:09:04,225 --> 00:09:06,821 And I said, "you mean a gay bar?" 182 00:09:06,845 --> 00:09:09,557 and they said, "no no, these are straight people." 183 00:09:09,581 --> 00:09:12,877 ♪ am I dreaming ♪ 184 00:09:12,901 --> 00:09:14,863 ♪ that you're with me? ♪ 185 00:09:14,887 --> 00:09:17,232 - ♪ am I dreaming... ♪ - Plato's was always 186 00:09:17,256 --> 00:09:19,367 for couples only. 187 00:09:19,391 --> 00:09:23,037 And of course we always invited single ladies. 188 00:09:23,061 --> 00:09:25,072 It was a tacky little place. 189 00:09:25,096 --> 00:09:27,625 And sitting behind there is this guy Larry... 190 00:09:27,649 --> 00:09:30,495 Who I later learned is Larry Levenson. He seemed in charge 191 00:09:30,519 --> 00:09:33,114 and he's sitting there in a towel, 192 00:09:33,138 --> 00:09:34,416 and that's it. 193 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,918 One of the best parts of it for me 194 00:09:36,942 --> 00:09:39,087 was that it was relaxed in the sense that people 195 00:09:39,111 --> 00:09:41,156 were coming and not necessarily doing anything. 196 00:09:41,180 --> 00:09:43,258 Not even necessarily taking their clothes off. 197 00:09:43,282 --> 00:09:44,909 Two of the men... 198 00:09:44,933 --> 00:09:47,111 were wearing no clothes 199 00:09:47,135 --> 00:09:49,880 except for black socks and shoes. 200 00:09:49,904 --> 00:09:54,386 And walking around that way, kinda like that stag-film look. 201 00:09:54,410 --> 00:09:56,304 So I wrote it up. 202 00:09:56,328 --> 00:09:58,539 I played it pretty big. 203 00:09:58,563 --> 00:10:01,977 And a few days later I went there... went back. 204 00:10:02,001 --> 00:10:05,797 ♪ One thing I feel that I like... ♪ 205 00:10:05,821 --> 00:10:09,017 Plato's was a simple name. It's the only one I could spell actually. 206 00:10:09,041 --> 00:10:11,252 So we used Plato's. Then after that I found out 207 00:10:11,276 --> 00:10:13,488 that Plato's was gay, but it was too late. 208 00:10:13,512 --> 00:10:16,174 The lines were just unbelievable. 209 00:10:16,198 --> 00:10:20,244 I mean we went from, what? 30, 40 couples or people 210 00:10:20,268 --> 00:10:21,779 to 400! 211 00:10:21,803 --> 00:10:24,748 Now you have a lot of people that don't know the old crowd. 212 00:10:24,772 --> 00:10:26,984 There were people that used to come to Plato's 213 00:10:27,008 --> 00:10:30,688 that to most people... would say were not the most physically appealing, 214 00:10:30,712 --> 00:10:33,842 but they were the nicest people you'd ever want to meet in the world. 215 00:10:33,866 --> 00:10:37,429 They were walking around with the black socks and the shoes, 216 00:10:37,453 --> 00:10:40,181 and this new group were just naked 217 00:10:40,205 --> 00:10:42,533 and much wilder. 218 00:10:42,557 --> 00:10:46,403 People say, "hey, you got a date? You want a night out?" et cetera, et cetera. 219 00:10:46,427 --> 00:10:50,164 "You and your date, you got a date that's sort of on the wild side?" 220 00:10:52,968 --> 00:10:55,446 Personally I think that 221 00:10:55,470 --> 00:10:57,715 with a little encouragement 222 00:10:57,739 --> 00:11:00,684 everybody's on the wild side. 223 00:11:00,708 --> 00:11:03,655 All of a sudden he really was on a runaway tiger... 224 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,279 Of sex. 225 00:11:10,568 --> 00:11:14,332 - It was like a big party. - There was literally lines around the block. 226 00:11:14,356 --> 00:11:17,602 They were just coming down and in and taking over 227 00:11:17,626 --> 00:11:20,371 and dancing and holding hands, 228 00:11:20,395 --> 00:11:22,296 and hugging. It was a sight. 229 00:11:24,967 --> 00:11:26,583 Freaked me out. I didn't know. 230 00:11:28,170 --> 00:11:31,766 Plato's was becoming big. We needed a big place. 231 00:11:31,790 --> 00:11:33,734 We needed a special place. 232 00:11:33,758 --> 00:11:36,404 He contacted a couple of good friends of his 233 00:11:36,428 --> 00:11:39,223 which I also knew: Frank Pernice, 234 00:11:39,247 --> 00:11:41,709 Frankie... he was some sort of caterer. 235 00:11:41,733 --> 00:11:44,678 Frank came home one day and said, 236 00:11:44,702 --> 00:11:48,232 "what a great idea. This has to be fantastic." 237 00:11:48,256 --> 00:11:50,535 About a week or two weeks later, 238 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,737 we met Hy Gordon there. 239 00:11:52,761 --> 00:11:55,606 Could be dangerous. 240 00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:58,409 They were gentlemen. They were the type of people that they didn't have 241 00:11:58,433 --> 00:12:01,512 to throw their weight around, if you understand what I mean. 242 00:12:01,536 --> 00:12:03,781 Why Larry had to hook up with these people... 243 00:12:03,805 --> 00:12:06,767 I can't tell. I don't know. 244 00:12:06,791 --> 00:12:09,887 Frankie used to say that Larry had a grocery store 245 00:12:09,911 --> 00:12:11,740 and he turned it into a supermarket. 246 00:12:11,764 --> 00:12:15,043 He ended up renting the Ansonia Hotel. 247 00:12:15,067 --> 00:12:18,046 It was actually a gay... 248 00:12:18,070 --> 00:12:20,031 - bathhouse. - Bathhouse. 249 00:12:20,055 --> 00:12:22,800 In fact Bette Midler sang there. 250 00:12:22,824 --> 00:12:24,535 And what's-his-name. 251 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,922 - The piano player... Barry Manilow. - Barry Manilow. 252 00:12:27,946 --> 00:12:32,010 ♪ Tootsie roll soul and doodle-white shoes... ♪ 253 00:12:32,034 --> 00:12:34,462 When I first heard about Plato's, 254 00:12:34,486 --> 00:12:38,316 all my ideas and everything I had heard about Plato's basically was wrong. 255 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:40,818 I thought that I would walk through the door and trip over 256 00:12:40,842 --> 00:12:43,121 a lot of fucking bodies in the middle of the floor. 257 00:12:43,145 --> 00:12:45,423 And it just doesn't happen that way. 258 00:12:45,447 --> 00:12:48,476 It was a dark door, just a rope outside. 259 00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:51,212 It had a long stairway going down. 260 00:12:51,236 --> 00:12:53,248 And I think the admissions people 261 00:12:53,272 --> 00:12:55,616 were at the top of the stairway. 262 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,538 Walking into Plato's is not necessarily an event in itself. 263 00:13:00,562 --> 00:13:03,458 Just being there is the event. 264 00:13:03,482 --> 00:13:06,777 Plato's Retreat is not a sex club, it's a swing club 265 00:13:06,801 --> 00:13:09,079 for free-thinking free-living adult couples. 266 00:13:09,103 --> 00:13:12,867 It's a club with everything disco, everything included, 267 00:13:12,891 --> 00:13:14,808 with sex available if couples want it. 268 00:13:16,378 --> 00:13:18,673 I asked, "what the fuck is it?" 269 00:13:18,697 --> 00:13:21,876 You know? There's like 20 mattresses laid together. 270 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:25,146 It was a dance floor. Then you had the dance floor in front of me. 271 00:13:25,170 --> 00:13:28,483 Most everyone was walking around naked. 272 00:13:28,507 --> 00:13:32,653 As I said, at first we wrapped our towels around us 273 00:13:32,677 --> 00:13:35,089 when we first walked out, but then when we saw 274 00:13:35,113 --> 00:13:37,675 the atmosphere of everybody very free, 275 00:13:37,699 --> 00:13:40,027 laughing, kissing, 276 00:13:40,051 --> 00:13:44,199 and really without their towels, we figured what the heck. 277 00:13:44,223 --> 00:13:46,501 I don't know, it was just kind of like 278 00:13:46,525 --> 00:13:49,120 a bathhouse locker room. But I do think that there was 279 00:13:49,144 --> 00:13:51,973 A lot of, like, coaching going on, 280 00:13:51,997 --> 00:13:54,792 at least with the women and encouragement, 281 00:13:54,816 --> 00:13:57,879 and a feeling of sisterhood like we're all in this together. 282 00:13:57,903 --> 00:14:00,181 There was just lots of lonely people 283 00:14:00,205 --> 00:14:02,650 looking to meet other people. 284 00:14:02,674 --> 00:14:05,720 Sex was part of the game, but it wasn't the whole game. 285 00:14:05,744 --> 00:14:07,955 Nobody made fun of you. 286 00:14:07,979 --> 00:14:09,941 Nobody said, "ugh!" you know? 287 00:14:09,965 --> 00:14:13,595 How you look, how you look disgusting or whatever... 288 00:14:13,619 --> 00:14:16,069 Any inhibitions you had you got over. 289 00:14:17,439 --> 00:14:19,684 And you didn't have them anymore. 290 00:14:19,708 --> 00:14:22,903 ♪ I can see you coming a mile away... ♪ 291 00:14:22,927 --> 00:14:24,822 And you had a jacuzzi. 292 00:14:24,846 --> 00:14:27,241 Anyone who went into the jacuzzi was insane 293 00:14:27,265 --> 00:14:30,545 Because I think there was every kind of bacteria. It was chemical warfare. 294 00:14:30,569 --> 00:14:33,214 We played ping-pong. We went swimming. 295 00:14:33,238 --> 00:14:36,984 People have a sense of being cleansed in a pool. 296 00:14:37,008 --> 00:14:38,986 This was a naughty pool. 297 00:14:39,010 --> 00:14:42,156 Guys were floating on the top of the water 298 00:14:42,180 --> 00:14:45,582 And their penises were sticking up and it looked like periscopes. 299 00:14:48,220 --> 00:14:52,683 I had just come from Paris so I was a young photographer, 300 00:14:52,707 --> 00:14:55,453 and kind of a shy girl from Ohio. 301 00:14:55,477 --> 00:14:57,405 So I... I... 302 00:14:57,429 --> 00:14:58,846 I disrobed... 303 00:15:00,248 --> 00:15:02,092 And I plunge into the pool. 304 00:15:02,116 --> 00:15:03,661 And I'm swimming. I, like, go. 305 00:15:03,685 --> 00:15:06,797 I sort of underwatered the whole length of the pool. 306 00:15:06,821 --> 00:15:11,302 And when I come up, I see all these men standing around the pool 307 00:15:11,326 --> 00:15:13,504 And they're all jerking off. 308 00:15:13,528 --> 00:15:16,440 And their come is, like, coming in an arc 309 00:15:16,464 --> 00:15:18,909 across the pool over my head. 310 00:15:18,933 --> 00:15:21,044 It was just amazing. 311 00:15:21,068 --> 00:15:23,080 That was one of my biggest regrets... 312 00:15:23,104 --> 00:15:24,815 Was that I didn't get that picture. 313 00:15:24,839 --> 00:15:27,351 - You go there, right? - Definitely, yes. 314 00:15:27,375 --> 00:15:29,520 - There's a membership fee? How much is it? - Right. 315 00:15:29,544 --> 00:15:31,088 It cost $25 per couple. 316 00:15:31,112 --> 00:15:34,258 Now for that, you get a meal that was fantastic, 317 00:15:34,282 --> 00:15:36,945 like you get at any Bar Mitzvah, a full smorgasbord. 318 00:15:36,969 --> 00:15:40,447 Chicken, ribs, chow mein, 319 00:15:40,471 --> 00:15:43,651 lasagna, meatballs. 320 00:15:43,675 --> 00:15:46,471 - Spaghetti. - No, lasagna. 321 00:15:46,495 --> 00:15:48,790 - Oh, okay. - Potato salad, macaroni. 322 00:15:48,814 --> 00:15:51,291 - Cold cuts. - Coleslaw. 323 00:15:51,315 --> 00:15:53,027 - Cold cuts. - Cold cuts. 324 00:15:53,051 --> 00:15:55,496 - Did I say chicken? - Yeah. 325 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,350 Why are you asking about that horrible food? 326 00:15:59,374 --> 00:16:04,221 Jesus. Which, by the way, Larry thought was wonderful. 327 00:16:04,245 --> 00:16:07,058 Larry really thought that was wonderful. 328 00:16:07,082 --> 00:16:09,993 He was so proud of his buffet. 329 00:16:10,017 --> 00:16:11,895 But the buffet was disgusting. 330 00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:14,898 There was people... Oral sex this and that... 331 00:16:14,922 --> 00:16:18,035 All crazy sex things. So we left there. 332 00:16:18,059 --> 00:16:20,738 I said I want to go to the room and eat my sandwich. 333 00:16:20,762 --> 00:16:23,574 So we went to another room... I guess the pool table... 334 00:16:23,598 --> 00:16:25,776 And they were having sex on the pool table. 335 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,778 We used to go buy pizza for ourselves 336 00:16:27,802 --> 00:16:30,113 and it was real good pizza and we said to Larry, 337 00:16:30,137 --> 00:16:32,850 - "it would be nice after the food's almost gone"... - just to break it up. 338 00:16:32,874 --> 00:16:36,186 - About 1:00 in the morning. - When you start running out of food 339 00:16:36,210 --> 00:16:38,422 and people come out of the orgy or they're dancing, 340 00:16:38,446 --> 00:16:41,325 swimming... you feel like grabbing something. 341 00:16:41,349 --> 00:16:43,928 They're tired of a bologna sandwich. 342 00:16:43,952 --> 00:16:46,553 I said, "Hey, why don't you order 10 pies?" 343 00:16:47,689 --> 00:16:49,566 "Why not?" 344 00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:51,836 - You weren't hiding, were you? - No. 345 00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:54,161 - Did you meet a nice girl? - No. 346 00:16:55,997 --> 00:16:58,759 Everything was open except these few black cubicles. 347 00:16:58,783 --> 00:17:01,462 That you could have private sex if you felt embarrassed 348 00:17:01,486 --> 00:17:03,898 to be doing it in front of the Japanese tourists. 349 00:17:03,922 --> 00:17:06,567 You could hear conversations in the room to the right of you, 350 00:17:06,591 --> 00:17:09,020 on the left of you. You'd hear women trying to figure out 351 00:17:09,044 --> 00:17:11,622 who was going to carpool to Hebrew School in the morning. 352 00:17:11,646 --> 00:17:13,808 We spent some very very happy hours 353 00:17:13,832 --> 00:17:17,512 controlling our hysteria 354 00:17:17,536 --> 00:17:20,481 so that people inside wouldn't know that we were listening 355 00:17:20,505 --> 00:17:24,251 to the kind of forced dialogue between people who have just met 356 00:17:24,275 --> 00:17:26,487 in an orgy room. 357 00:17:26,511 --> 00:17:30,391 It was good stuff. I wish I'd recorded some of it. 358 00:17:30,415 --> 00:17:33,010 When Larry showed me into this closed Cubicle 359 00:17:33,034 --> 00:17:35,746 and the woman in there was his wife Mary, 360 00:17:35,770 --> 00:17:39,650 he seemed almost excited to be able to introduce Mary to the press: 361 00:17:39,674 --> 00:17:42,386 "Hi, Mary, how are you? This is John Leo." 362 00:17:42,410 --> 00:17:46,624 And again it was almost the enthusiasm 363 00:17:46,648 --> 00:17:49,861 of a Kiwanis executive showing off his home town. 364 00:17:49,885 --> 00:17:52,279 - Why repress your desires? - What? 365 00:17:52,303 --> 00:17:55,533 - Why repress your desires? - I'd like to be in the Indianapolis 500 too, 366 00:17:55,557 --> 00:17:58,959 but I have the common sense not to engage in it because it's not good for me. 367 00:18:03,681 --> 00:18:07,478 And that's just what he said... "it's not good for everybody." 368 00:18:07,502 --> 00:18:09,446 So for you, it wouldn't be good. 369 00:18:09,470 --> 00:18:12,149 The mattress room was the most intense. 370 00:18:12,173 --> 00:18:15,552 And for people who found Plato's really uncomfortable 371 00:18:15,576 --> 00:18:18,422 in terms of almost morally, 372 00:18:18,446 --> 00:18:20,725 that was the toughest place to go and look. 373 00:18:20,749 --> 00:18:23,444 You would have maybe 200 bodies in there 374 00:18:23,468 --> 00:18:25,312 on a busy night 375 00:18:25,336 --> 00:18:29,150 and just writhing together like a bucket of worms. 376 00:18:29,174 --> 00:18:32,487 ♪ Love today, cry tomorrow ♪ 377 00:18:32,511 --> 00:18:35,656 ♪ who's to say ♪ 378 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,542 ♪ life is gay... ♪ - "look at that guy's... 379 00:18:38,566 --> 00:18:42,129 He's not really handsome, but look what he's got. 380 00:18:42,153 --> 00:18:44,665 And look what she's got and where is that going?" 381 00:18:44,689 --> 00:18:47,301 It was real and your ears could hear it was real. 382 00:18:47,325 --> 00:18:49,236 Someone... 383 00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:52,473 The breathing and even the smell and the sweat 384 00:18:52,497 --> 00:18:53,808 and the... ugh. 385 00:18:53,832 --> 00:18:56,943 It exhilarated me and at the same time 386 00:18:56,967 --> 00:18:58,945 it sort of depressed me. 387 00:18:58,969 --> 00:19:02,883 Because it completely kills your notions 388 00:19:02,907 --> 00:19:05,252 about romance. 389 00:19:05,276 --> 00:19:08,673 Like a dance floor, sometimes people are just dancing. 390 00:19:08,697 --> 00:19:13,360 But sometimes there's a groove... a tribal groove 391 00:19:13,384 --> 00:19:14,861 that people get in 392 00:19:14,885 --> 00:19:17,531 and be in incredible synch and there would be 393 00:19:17,555 --> 00:19:20,200 a lot of energy and it was like that with the mattress room. 394 00:19:20,224 --> 00:19:23,059 I was terrified of the matt room. 395 00:19:27,782 --> 00:19:30,945 And you'd fuck a little and you watch a little and hang out, 396 00:19:30,969 --> 00:19:32,430 fuck a little more. 397 00:19:32,454 --> 00:19:37,341 ♪ Danger in the shape of something wild ♪ 398 00:19:41,112 --> 00:19:45,782 ♪ stranger dressed in black, she's a hungry child... ♪ 399 00:20:04,435 --> 00:20:08,049 Bacho the disc jockey, he told me, "you're a reporter, right?" 400 00:20:08,073 --> 00:20:10,384 He says, "watch!" he played the music. 401 00:20:10,408 --> 00:20:14,087 He'd speed up the music and the things would go faster. 402 00:20:14,111 --> 00:20:17,057 He slowed down the music and the things would go slower. 403 00:20:17,081 --> 00:20:19,650 It was unbelievable. You had to be there to see that. 404 00:20:22,921 --> 00:20:25,472 Fast and slow lovemaking. 405 00:20:35,199 --> 00:20:37,478 Ejaculation juices were everywhere. 406 00:20:37,502 --> 00:20:39,730 So I'm sitting on a lot of these wet cushions. 407 00:20:39,754 --> 00:20:41,698 And then on one of these nights I go home 408 00:20:41,722 --> 00:20:44,285 and I start feeling really itchy. 409 00:20:44,309 --> 00:20:47,020 "Oooh, what's that? What is that?" 410 00:20:47,044 --> 00:20:51,525 And then I looked down and I see all these crabs were in there 411 00:20:51,549 --> 00:20:54,295 and I just got a big dose of it. 412 00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:57,231 You know, because that's where crabs breed 413 00:20:57,255 --> 00:21:01,768 is in all those damp, moist... 414 00:21:01,792 --> 00:21:04,505 nether places. 415 00:21:04,529 --> 00:21:06,573 I mean, I just remember a lot of this... 416 00:21:06,597 --> 00:21:09,210 You know, in the mattress room. 417 00:21:09,234 --> 00:21:12,730 ♪ Hot child in the city. ♪ 418 00:21:12,754 --> 00:21:15,698 What made you organize... 419 00:21:15,722 --> 00:21:18,235 Originate Plato's Retreat, 420 00:21:18,259 --> 00:21:20,437 A place for swinging couples? 421 00:21:20,461 --> 00:21:23,372 - What is the swinging movement? - It's a couples' movement. 422 00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:25,741 Couples that want to be free-thinking, 423 00:21:25,765 --> 00:21:27,977 free-living adult couples. 424 00:21:28,001 --> 00:21:30,080 They don't believe in monogamous relationships. 425 00:21:30,104 --> 00:21:33,382 They would rather get involved with other people 426 00:21:33,406 --> 00:21:36,642 but together with their spouses instead of cheating with them. 427 00:21:38,212 --> 00:21:42,542 ♪ I was born with a smile on my face ♪ 428 00:21:42,566 --> 00:21:45,345 ♪ the whole of my life's been a pantomime... ♪ 429 00:21:45,369 --> 00:21:48,048 Larry had the pitch and tone of a missionary. 430 00:21:48,072 --> 00:21:51,751 He thought he was the future and he was pulling back the curtain 431 00:21:51,775 --> 00:21:54,654 on something wholesome and happy. 432 00:21:54,678 --> 00:21:56,957 I only actually met him once, 433 00:21:56,981 --> 00:21:59,859 and I was unable to shake his hand 434 00:21:59,883 --> 00:22:03,163 because just before he extended it, 435 00:22:03,187 --> 00:22:05,131 he was doing something with it 436 00:22:05,155 --> 00:22:09,035 that would tend to make you want to stay several yards away. 437 00:22:09,059 --> 00:22:12,605 ♪ Born with a smile on my face... ♪ 438 00:22:12,629 --> 00:22:15,991 Larry said, "I fall in love with every woman 439 00:22:16,015 --> 00:22:18,861 I have sex with, even if I have sex with 10 women a night." 440 00:22:18,885 --> 00:22:21,414 And Larry could have sex with 10 women a night. 441 00:22:21,438 --> 00:22:23,549 He was phenomenal that way. 442 00:22:23,573 --> 00:22:25,718 He said, "It's always romance, 443 00:22:25,742 --> 00:22:28,854 it's always exciting and I'm always grateful." 444 00:22:28,878 --> 00:22:32,108 ♪ to have your leisure give you pleasure... ♪ 445 00:22:32,132 --> 00:22:34,060 The thing I mostly remember is he had these giant teeth. 446 00:22:34,084 --> 00:22:36,062 He had really huge teeth. 447 00:22:36,086 --> 00:22:38,948 There's a yiddish word... hamisch... and that's what he was. 448 00:22:38,972 --> 00:22:41,617 He was like your nicest uncle. 449 00:22:41,641 --> 00:22:43,336 - A Hugh Hefner. - A maitre d'. 450 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:45,454 Larry was... 451 00:22:45,478 --> 00:22:47,924 no question a trailblazer. He was a pioneer 452 00:22:47,948 --> 00:22:50,010 in his field. Quite the guy. 453 00:22:50,034 --> 00:22:52,462 Whether you were in the business, whether you were rich, 454 00:22:52,486 --> 00:22:54,764 whatever, Larry always had time for you... 455 00:22:54,788 --> 00:22:57,200 especially if you had a great-looking wife. 456 00:22:57,224 --> 00:22:59,919 I think he was lonely. I think he loved attention. 457 00:22:59,943 --> 00:23:02,588 He loved having people around him, you know? 458 00:23:02,612 --> 00:23:04,757 And he loved being, I guess, 459 00:23:04,781 --> 00:23:06,493 you know, the guy with... 460 00:23:06,517 --> 00:23:09,362 The kid with the... With the baseball bat. 461 00:23:09,386 --> 00:23:11,797 It was his glove, his bat, his ball, you know? 462 00:23:11,821 --> 00:23:13,599 Hi there. It's Larry and Mary again 463 00:23:13,623 --> 00:23:15,334 to tell you about Plato's Retreat, 464 00:23:15,358 --> 00:23:18,204 the first and only couples' club of its kind anywhere. 465 00:23:18,228 --> 00:23:20,306 Yes, there's a full-length swimming pool 466 00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:23,609 and outrageous whirlpool which holds about 30 people at a time, 467 00:23:23,633 --> 00:23:25,644 disco dancing with a live DJ. 468 00:23:25,668 --> 00:23:28,848 I grew up in the upper-middleclass Jewish Catskills 469 00:23:28,872 --> 00:23:30,833 of the Concord Hotel. 470 00:23:30,857 --> 00:23:33,186 I was Miss Concord Hotel at 16. 471 00:23:33,210 --> 00:23:35,020 And it seemed to me that 472 00:23:35,044 --> 00:23:37,907 all of those people had children, 473 00:23:37,931 --> 00:23:41,211 and all those children moved to Long Island, 474 00:23:41,235 --> 00:23:43,980 and Southern Jersey. 475 00:23:44,004 --> 00:23:46,572 And all of them went to Plato's. 476 00:23:50,410 --> 00:23:52,755 ♪ When I wake up ♪ 477 00:23:52,779 --> 00:23:54,907 ♪ in the morning light... ♪ 478 00:23:54,931 --> 00:23:58,494 The crowd at Plato's was conventional. 479 00:23:58,518 --> 00:24:00,463 It wasn't filled with my friends, 480 00:24:00,487 --> 00:24:03,266 but it did a great job in some ways because it sort of 481 00:24:03,290 --> 00:24:06,452 liberated Long Island. It liberated New Jersey. 482 00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:09,088 I never saw a velvet-rope type situation there. 483 00:24:09,112 --> 00:24:11,491 I don't think there might have been a velvet rope. 484 00:24:11,515 --> 00:24:13,225 I never saw an eager crowd waiting to get in 485 00:24:13,249 --> 00:24:14,727 with bouncers keeping them out. 486 00:24:14,751 --> 00:24:19,682 Everything at Plato's, even the ugly person... 487 00:24:19,706 --> 00:24:22,285 I don't think there were any... was... was... 488 00:24:22,309 --> 00:24:23,986 Had a certain charm. 489 00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:26,805 - It was a poor man's playboy mansion. - Absolutely. 490 00:24:26,829 --> 00:24:29,208 I actually admire people that are that free 491 00:24:29,232 --> 00:24:31,844 that could go into a place like that and just let it all hang out, 492 00:24:31,868 --> 00:24:34,013 take all their clothes off and walk around... 493 00:24:34,037 --> 00:24:37,100 Including those fat people that look like they've got, you know, 494 00:24:37,124 --> 00:24:39,135 double sets of twins in their belly. 495 00:24:39,159 --> 00:24:41,487 I'm amazed that they can do that because even though 496 00:24:41,511 --> 00:24:45,591 I looked a lot different then... I was skinnier 497 00:24:45,615 --> 00:24:49,395 and I had two breasts... I couldn't take my clothes off in front of strangers. 498 00:24:49,419 --> 00:24:52,932 I mean, I think it takes a lot of something to be able to do that. 499 00:24:52,956 --> 00:24:55,384 ♪ I'll meet ya in the usual place... ♪ 500 00:24:55,408 --> 00:24:57,820 I thought they had resuscitated the orgy 501 00:24:57,844 --> 00:25:00,689 For the man in the street, which is exactly what they did. 502 00:25:00,713 --> 00:25:02,641 You pay whatever it is... 20, 25 bucks... 503 00:25:02,665 --> 00:25:05,945 You get in and you can join in an orgy. 504 00:25:05,969 --> 00:25:08,204 Where can you do that in the United States? 505 00:25:09,373 --> 00:25:11,284 You could do it at Plato's. 506 00:25:11,308 --> 00:25:13,152 My friends were very... 507 00:25:13,176 --> 00:25:15,522 you know, backwards. 508 00:25:15,546 --> 00:25:19,358 And I... I grew away from my friends. 509 00:25:19,382 --> 00:25:23,696 I grew away. I went to the city. I went to bars. 510 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,332 I went up on Second Avenue, First Avenue, 511 00:25:26,356 --> 00:25:30,069 up to Uptown. I wanted to meet a more educated crowd. 512 00:25:30,093 --> 00:25:32,271 I was no boy scout. I was a wild guy, 513 00:25:32,295 --> 00:25:34,557 Very uninhibited. I was a model. 514 00:25:34,581 --> 00:25:36,892 The first time I heard about Plato's Retreat 515 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:40,012 was I went to Club Med at Martinique with a friend of mine 516 00:25:40,036 --> 00:25:43,183 and this guy was telling me, "Miles, you're gonna love this place. 517 00:25:43,207 --> 00:25:46,052 It's wild. Everyone's having sex all over the place." 518 00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:48,505 My boyfriend was a minister. 519 00:25:48,529 --> 00:25:52,308 And he asked me 520 00:25:52,332 --> 00:25:55,144 to go to Plato's Retreat that night 521 00:25:55,168 --> 00:25:56,779 And we went. 522 00:25:56,803 --> 00:25:59,915 I was a tingling mess of hormones. 523 00:25:59,939 --> 00:26:02,768 I was like... almost like when you're a teenager. 524 00:26:02,792 --> 00:26:05,087 As soon as I walked down the stairs, 525 00:26:05,111 --> 00:26:07,122 a little redheaded girl comes up to me, 526 00:26:07,146 --> 00:26:08,957 really pretty, grabs me by the arm 527 00:26:08,981 --> 00:26:11,027 and says, "Come here. Come with me." 528 00:26:11,051 --> 00:26:14,947 At first we talked to each other for a little bit. 529 00:26:14,971 --> 00:26:17,316 And, um, you know, 530 00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:20,019 he was obviously more comfortable there than I was. 531 00:26:20,043 --> 00:26:22,371 We go right into a little private room. 532 00:26:22,395 --> 00:26:24,256 You'll love that. We're in Plato's Retreat, 533 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,475 where everyone's having sex all over the place, 534 00:26:26,499 --> 00:26:29,144 there are little rooms called "for the inhibited." 535 00:26:29,168 --> 00:26:32,898 Everybody was so nice to me. Everybody made you feel at home. 536 00:26:32,922 --> 00:26:35,651 I had a chance to... 537 00:26:35,675 --> 00:26:38,020 look around a little bit. 538 00:26:38,044 --> 00:26:42,514 And somewhere in there he disappeared. 539 00:26:45,118 --> 00:26:47,864 And I found myself 540 00:26:47,888 --> 00:26:51,167 with a construction worker from Connecticut. 541 00:26:51,191 --> 00:26:53,570 ♪ At Plato's Retreat ♪ 542 00:26:53,594 --> 00:26:56,372 ♪ you can make your dreams come true ♪ 543 00:26:56,396 --> 00:26:59,576 ♪ fulfill your wildest fantasies ♪ 544 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,678 ♪ we've got them all for you... ♪ 545 00:27:01,702 --> 00:27:03,746 She was nuts, absolutely wild. 546 00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:06,549 She goes, "Oooh, pussy loves cock. Pussy loves cock." 547 00:27:06,573 --> 00:27:09,652 Unbelievable... a maniac. I said, "this is my kind of place." 548 00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:12,138 ♪ the pleasure and the fun ♪ 549 00:27:12,162 --> 00:27:14,557 ♪ will keep you feeling young ♪ 550 00:27:14,581 --> 00:27:17,243 ♪ it's for you ♪ 551 00:27:17,267 --> 00:27:19,845 ♪ it's for you... ♪ 552 00:27:19,869 --> 00:27:21,847 I was a young good-looking kid, I guess, 553 00:27:21,871 --> 00:27:23,549 and several girls came on to me 554 00:27:23,573 --> 00:27:25,618 and their boyfriends weren't that attractive. 555 00:27:25,642 --> 00:27:28,654 And if you had to go with one... You had to trade off. 556 00:27:28,678 --> 00:27:31,524 And she yelled at me, she screamed at me, 557 00:27:31,548 --> 00:27:33,959 and I said, "Just do it! Just do it." 558 00:27:33,983 --> 00:27:36,094 You know? And... 559 00:27:36,118 --> 00:27:37,797 we didn't talk much after that. 560 00:27:37,821 --> 00:27:39,682 ♪ The pleasure and the fun ♪ 561 00:27:39,706 --> 00:27:41,834 ♪ will keep you feeling young ♪ 562 00:27:41,858 --> 00:27:43,352 ♪ it's for you ♪ 563 00:27:43,376 --> 00:27:44,970 ♪ it's for you... ♪ 564 00:27:44,994 --> 00:27:47,179 He was a wonderful lover. 565 00:27:48,848 --> 00:27:52,595 And I said to myself, "People who come to Plato's Retreat 566 00:27:52,619 --> 00:27:55,798 must be pretty good lovers," because this man had been. 567 00:27:55,822 --> 00:27:57,122 Um... 568 00:27:58,258 --> 00:28:01,537 ♪ it's for you! ♪ 569 00:28:01,561 --> 00:28:03,923 I wanted to tell the people I grew up with, 570 00:28:03,947 --> 00:28:06,992 like, no, I came from a neighborhood in Queens, New York. 571 00:28:07,016 --> 00:28:09,429 But you couldn't tell... You couldn't talk about 572 00:28:09,453 --> 00:28:13,365 that kind of thing with guys from the neighborhood because they wouldn't believe you. 573 00:28:13,389 --> 00:28:15,401 To be honest, 574 00:28:15,425 --> 00:28:18,738 it was going out on an edge for me. 575 00:28:18,762 --> 00:28:21,374 It was a very edgy thing to do 576 00:28:21,398 --> 00:28:25,077 to... 577 00:28:25,101 --> 00:28:27,780 you know, spend an evening in Plato's Retreat. 578 00:28:27,804 --> 00:28:30,933 There was this attractive mulatto woman 579 00:28:30,957 --> 00:28:34,570 going down on her man with her ass up in the air. 580 00:28:34,594 --> 00:28:37,106 I sat down 581 00:28:37,130 --> 00:28:40,643 on the mattress next to her and started stroking her. 582 00:28:40,667 --> 00:28:44,379 No opposition, so I... 583 00:28:44,403 --> 00:28:47,717 I guess, you know, stuck my cock in her pussy 584 00:28:47,741 --> 00:28:49,785 and screwed her. 585 00:28:49,809 --> 00:28:53,512 And she didn't even look back. She was too busy blowing her boyfriend. 586 00:28:57,483 --> 00:29:00,452 I hope I'm not being too vulgar. 587 00:29:01,822 --> 00:29:04,133 The minister and I... 588 00:29:04,157 --> 00:29:07,269 did hook up sometime during that evening. 589 00:29:07,293 --> 00:29:10,730 But I don't remember when. 590 00:29:12,366 --> 00:29:14,109 - Which is telling. - Phil? 591 00:29:14,133 --> 00:29:17,463 Yeah... yes, Larry Levenson, Plato's Retreat. 592 00:29:17,487 --> 00:29:19,015 I can speak for Plato's 593 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:21,650 and we get about 50% new couples every night. 594 00:29:21,674 --> 00:29:24,737 We have disco dancing... In fact we have a song 595 00:29:24,761 --> 00:29:27,462 about Plato's Retreat that's number six in the country right now. 596 00:29:32,151 --> 00:29:34,764 I met people years later who said things like, 597 00:29:34,788 --> 00:29:37,150 "oh, I went in there. I went to Plato's." 598 00:29:37,174 --> 00:29:40,670 I went to Plato's, you know? It became part of the memoir. 599 00:29:40,694 --> 00:29:43,305 You know? That was exciting in itself. 600 00:29:43,329 --> 00:29:45,674 We had judges, lawyers, police... 601 00:29:45,698 --> 00:29:47,443 - Senators. - Senators. 602 00:29:47,467 --> 00:29:49,518 Robin Leach who was... 603 00:29:51,554 --> 00:29:53,131 He was there just to look. 604 00:29:53,155 --> 00:29:55,267 Students met their professors, 605 00:29:55,291 --> 00:29:57,736 guys met their ex-wives, 606 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,505 future wives. 607 00:29:59,529 --> 00:30:01,874 Sammy Davis, JR. On the dance floor 608 00:30:01,898 --> 00:30:04,209 at Plato's Retreat, it was a treat. 609 00:30:04,233 --> 00:30:06,946 They'd tell me this guy was a big star... 610 00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:08,831 Frank Sinatra's friend, you know. 611 00:30:08,855 --> 00:30:10,816 - Althea, his wife... - Althea, his wife. 612 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,151 Pulled her shirt up. 613 00:30:12,175 --> 00:30:14,870 Oh, man, how could I forget his name? 614 00:30:14,894 --> 00:30:17,773 He's a writer... Hugh Hefner's friend, 615 00:30:17,797 --> 00:30:19,642 he committed suicide... 616 00:30:19,666 --> 00:30:21,476 Jerzy Kosinski. 617 00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:23,679 Much of the cast of "Saturday Night Live." 618 00:30:23,703 --> 00:30:26,198 What's his name? Dreyf... Richard Dreyfuss. 619 00:30:26,222 --> 00:30:28,150 He never came down with a lady. 620 00:30:28,174 --> 00:30:30,686 Again he was invited to stay. 621 00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:33,139 Dan Pastorini was having a big year 622 00:30:33,163 --> 00:30:36,441 with the Houston Oilers. And the men recognize him. 623 00:30:36,465 --> 00:30:39,278 And the men started, "It's Dan Pastorini! It's Dan Pastorini!" 624 00:30:39,302 --> 00:30:42,381 And just immediately grabbing their wives 625 00:30:42,405 --> 00:30:44,349 and just... you know, 626 00:30:44,373 --> 00:30:46,118 "fuck Dan Pastorini!" 627 00:30:46,142 --> 00:30:50,840 Why did you decide in early 1973 628 00:30:50,864 --> 00:30:52,558 to go underground? 629 00:30:52,582 --> 00:30:56,161 There was no way that I could possibly get a fair trial. 630 00:30:56,185 --> 00:30:58,714 Abbie Hoffman was underground, 631 00:30:58,738 --> 00:31:00,482 running from the FBI, basically. 632 00:31:00,506 --> 00:31:04,503 And one of these times I got a phone call from him saying, "I'm in town. 633 00:31:04,527 --> 00:31:08,941 And I've been reading all about Plato's 634 00:31:08,965 --> 00:31:12,845 in your column in the 'Voice' and I want to go to Plato's Retreat." 635 00:31:12,869 --> 00:31:15,480 And I said, "are you out of your mind?" 636 00:31:15,504 --> 00:31:19,602 This is where we're working on the new constitution. 637 00:31:19,626 --> 00:31:22,104 And he said, "no no no, I gotta go. I gotta go. 638 00:31:22,128 --> 00:31:24,073 I gotta go there. I gotta see it. 639 00:31:24,097 --> 00:31:26,008 I can't miss this." 640 00:31:26,032 --> 00:31:28,293 He comes over after awhile and he says, 641 00:31:28,317 --> 00:31:31,263 "Can't I tell them who I am? I mean, they... they... 642 00:31:31,287 --> 00:31:34,834 They just walk away from me. I thought you said everybody gets laid here." 643 00:31:34,858 --> 00:31:39,154 I said, "go ahead, but I think it's really dangerous." 644 00:31:39,178 --> 00:31:42,358 Abbie was one of the first people 645 00:31:42,382 --> 00:31:45,417 that I knew that couldn't get laid at Plato's. 646 00:31:46,886 --> 00:31:49,632 I probably wouldn't have gone as many times as I did, 647 00:31:49,656 --> 00:31:52,100 but friends from California kept asking me 648 00:31:52,124 --> 00:31:53,736 to walk them in. 649 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,921 I was wondering, do you get a lot of curiosity seekers, 650 00:31:55,945 --> 00:31:57,690 people that just like to go and watch? 651 00:31:57,714 --> 00:31:59,959 - Yes, voyeurs, definitely. - Like me. 652 00:31:59,983 --> 00:32:02,294 Yes, there's no pressure, there's no obligation 653 00:32:02,318 --> 00:32:04,463 and no commitment to do anything at our club. 654 00:32:04,487 --> 00:32:06,899 And I'm positive it's the same way at Larry's club. 655 00:32:06,923 --> 00:32:09,584 I come for... 656 00:32:09,608 --> 00:32:12,271 sex, good conversation, 657 00:32:12,295 --> 00:32:14,262 intellect. 658 00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:19,318 The only rule, actually, in the entire club was no. 659 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,131 If somebody said no, that was it. 660 00:32:23,155 --> 00:32:25,334 But if they allowed it, anything went. 661 00:32:25,358 --> 00:32:28,754 Females first. They set the rule. 662 00:32:28,778 --> 00:32:31,257 If they want to be touched, that's fine. 663 00:32:31,281 --> 00:32:33,959 They don't want to be touched, they're not gonna be touched. 664 00:32:33,983 --> 00:32:35,823 If she wants to walk around with her top off... 665 00:32:38,388 --> 00:32:42,067 she walks around with her top off. That was it. 666 00:32:42,091 --> 00:32:44,820 I think at Plato's it was kind of interesting that women 667 00:32:44,844 --> 00:32:47,956 were really in a position to be assertive, 668 00:32:47,980 --> 00:32:50,960 to approach men for sex, 669 00:32:50,984 --> 00:32:53,195 to kind of try out a lot of the things 670 00:32:53,219 --> 00:32:55,931 that we had been on the receiving end of. 671 00:32:55,955 --> 00:32:59,318 It was yummy. Why let them have all the pleasure? 672 00:32:59,342 --> 00:33:02,822 Why even pretend that you didn't feel good about it 673 00:33:02,846 --> 00:33:05,881 and you didn't have a good time when you were sexually involved? 674 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,545 The whole thing with Plato's is 675 00:33:10,569 --> 00:33:12,781 that you would walk into this space, 676 00:33:12,805 --> 00:33:15,917 and whether or not you had sex with anyone was really not the point. 677 00:33:15,941 --> 00:33:18,387 The point was is that everybody there 678 00:33:18,411 --> 00:33:21,256 was willing to be nude, 679 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,576 available maybe for sex 680 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,395 and open. 681 00:33:26,419 --> 00:33:29,347 Sex with another man is a fantasy of mine. 682 00:33:29,371 --> 00:33:31,950 I'm someone else. It's an ego trip. 683 00:33:31,974 --> 00:33:34,319 I think that's exactly what it is. It's an ego trip 684 00:33:34,343 --> 00:33:37,273 having some other man, other than my husband, telling me "you're beautiful. 685 00:33:37,297 --> 00:33:40,192 You're good in bed." all this, you know? 686 00:33:40,216 --> 00:33:42,161 It's really a fantasy for me. 687 00:33:42,185 --> 00:33:44,413 And it also felt like you had a secret, 688 00:33:44,437 --> 00:33:46,281 that you had a secret world 689 00:33:46,305 --> 00:33:48,784 that most of the people who were either going to work 690 00:33:48,808 --> 00:33:51,053 or just going about their business in the city 691 00:33:51,077 --> 00:33:53,555 that they didn't know what you had experienced. 692 00:33:53,579 --> 00:33:56,675 Again, it's not just sex. It's not going in there 693 00:33:56,699 --> 00:33:59,444 and say, "I'm going in there 'cause I just want to grab somebody 694 00:33:59,468 --> 00:34:01,480 and I wanna..." 695 00:34:01,504 --> 00:34:03,382 Can I say certain words? Okay. 696 00:34:03,406 --> 00:34:04,883 "get laid." 697 00:34:04,907 --> 00:34:07,659 I was a social worker in 1978. 698 00:34:09,162 --> 00:34:12,664 But I had good evenings after my social work. 699 00:34:14,633 --> 00:34:16,862 ♪ Oh, how happy ♪ 700 00:34:16,886 --> 00:34:20,132 ♪ you have made me ♪ 701 00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:22,901 ♪ oh, how happy ♪ 702 00:34:22,925 --> 00:34:25,137 ♪ you have made me ♪ 703 00:34:25,161 --> 00:34:27,740 ♪ I have kissed your lips ♪ 704 00:34:27,764 --> 00:34:29,708 ♪ a thousand times... ♪ 705 00:34:29,732 --> 00:34:32,227 I remember once, this couple... 706 00:34:32,251 --> 00:34:35,464 I'm sure they've been thrown out of every swingers club in the world 707 00:34:35,488 --> 00:34:38,700 because they were so large. They had to weigh 300 lbs each. 708 00:34:38,724 --> 00:34:41,820 And they were jitterbugging. They were dancing. 709 00:34:41,844 --> 00:34:45,190 They had on their towels. They had to have double towels 710 00:34:45,214 --> 00:34:47,926 around them. And the towels, of course, fell off. 711 00:34:47,950 --> 00:34:50,896 And then nobody gave a doo-doo-caca. 712 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,999 But what happened was... It was when they stomped, 713 00:34:54,023 --> 00:34:57,636 they were shaking the... The... the... 714 00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:00,238 The Platters for the DJ because they weighed so much. 715 00:35:00,262 --> 00:35:02,608 I mean, they were shaking the whole damn floor. 716 00:35:02,632 --> 00:35:04,342 But it was... nobody cared. 717 00:35:04,366 --> 00:35:06,445 It was really very very nice. 718 00:35:06,469 --> 00:35:08,781 This was Larry Levenson's castle. 719 00:35:08,805 --> 00:35:12,785 Plato's Retreat was the way that Larry could 720 00:35:12,809 --> 00:35:15,721 embrace everybody and... and... 721 00:35:15,745 --> 00:35:18,790 Exude his generosity, his bounty. 722 00:35:18,814 --> 00:35:21,760 Family togetherness today at a place called Plato's Retreat. 723 00:35:21,784 --> 00:35:25,114 This afternoon the owner held an open house there for children. 724 00:35:25,138 --> 00:35:28,317 In most cases it was a family affair at Plato's today... 725 00:35:28,341 --> 00:35:30,702 The first time I actually went 726 00:35:30,726 --> 00:35:32,187 to the club, the club was closed. 727 00:35:32,211 --> 00:35:34,840 My father used to run, like, holiday parties... 728 00:35:34,864 --> 00:35:36,942 Memorial Day, Labor Day. 729 00:35:36,966 --> 00:35:40,512 He would actually rent the big bus, have it parked at my high school. 730 00:35:40,536 --> 00:35:42,781 I would invite 40 of my best friends. 731 00:35:42,805 --> 00:35:45,550 - Do you mind that your mother comes here? - No, I don't care. 732 00:35:45,574 --> 00:35:49,071 He had a disco and there was a game room there. 733 00:35:49,095 --> 00:35:52,174 Everything was the same as if it was open, except there was no nudity 734 00:35:52,198 --> 00:35:53,842 or no sex. It was a bunch of kids. 735 00:35:53,866 --> 00:35:56,428 That's when we started understanding 736 00:35:56,452 --> 00:35:59,597 what everything was about. 737 00:35:59,621 --> 00:36:02,317 He used to be called... what? King of Swing. 738 00:36:02,341 --> 00:36:05,687 Yeah, that's right. He was called King of Swing. 739 00:36:05,711 --> 00:36:07,423 ♪ At Plato's Retreat... ♪ 740 00:36:07,447 --> 00:36:09,625 Larry, let us into your heart a minute. 741 00:36:09,649 --> 00:36:12,444 A lot of people are saying Larry Levenson, 742 00:36:12,468 --> 00:36:14,312 a lot of people say sleaze. 743 00:36:14,336 --> 00:36:17,716 I heard the President's speech the other night. He talked about truth, 744 00:36:17,740 --> 00:36:20,552 service, sacrifice, the American dream. 745 00:36:20,576 --> 00:36:23,822 And then we see in this country a disintegration of the American family... 746 00:36:23,846 --> 00:36:26,892 That's what you're really telling us. That's what Plato's Retreat 747 00:36:26,916 --> 00:36:29,161 - is about... or monogamy is dead. - Oh no. 748 00:36:29,185 --> 00:36:30,795 - No! - I'm saying that... 749 00:36:30,819 --> 00:36:33,399 This is a preservation in a sense, Stanley. 750 00:36:33,423 --> 00:36:35,117 Don't you realize how many men say 751 00:36:35,141 --> 00:36:37,453 "I'm going out with the boys tonight," 752 00:36:37,477 --> 00:36:39,488 - And they cheat and they lie? - The question is 753 00:36:39,512 --> 00:36:41,213 why aren't you in jail? 754 00:36:42,582 --> 00:36:44,960 We're here at the New York Aquarium now. 755 00:36:44,984 --> 00:36:49,898 - Watching orca Shamu do his thing. 756 00:36:49,922 --> 00:36:52,317 Larry, you know, I've never really gotten a chance to talk to you. 757 00:36:52,341 --> 00:36:55,193 Why don't you play with my ass and tell me your philosophy of life? 758 00:36:56,479 --> 00:36:58,757 Whoo! 759 00:36:58,781 --> 00:37:02,428 - Oh my god, he's doing it. - Larry got involved with younger women, 760 00:37:02,452 --> 00:37:06,431 wanted to hang out with these women that took him for his money... 761 00:37:06,455 --> 00:37:08,634 The money he didn't have 762 00:37:08,658 --> 00:37:11,003 and the drugs he did have. 763 00:37:11,027 --> 00:37:13,956 Larry was boring because he thought 764 00:37:13,980 --> 00:37:16,024 his whole world was sex. 765 00:37:16,048 --> 00:37:19,027 His world was genitalia. 766 00:37:19,051 --> 00:37:21,263 Again, he never read a book. 767 00:37:21,287 --> 00:37:25,300 He never had a thought. It was all about him as a legend. 768 00:37:25,324 --> 00:37:28,587 He really thought that when it came to swinging 769 00:37:28,611 --> 00:37:32,257 he was... everyone looked at him as "The King" literally. 770 00:37:32,281 --> 00:37:34,860 We got people from Fort Lauderdale. We got people from California. 771 00:37:34,884 --> 00:37:38,480 We got people from Paris, France, coming to Plato's. They fly in. 772 00:37:38,504 --> 00:37:40,816 We're the eighth wonder of the world. Okay? 773 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,218 I think it's different, but I don't think it's immoral. 774 00:37:43,242 --> 00:37:46,154 This is the biggest thing to hit New York city since the World's Fair. 775 00:37:46,178 --> 00:37:47,212 And it is. 776 00:37:52,635 --> 00:37:55,346 The interesting thing about Larry was 777 00:37:55,370 --> 00:37:57,549 The guy was getting social security checks. 778 00:37:57,573 --> 00:37:59,284 He didn't have any money, 779 00:37:59,308 --> 00:38:02,287 yet he was able to borrow $150,000. 780 00:38:02,311 --> 00:38:05,046 Where does a guy get $150,000? 781 00:38:10,336 --> 00:38:12,114 He was Colonel Sanders 782 00:38:12,138 --> 00:38:14,383 and he had to do his little step... 783 00:38:14,407 --> 00:38:16,368 Step-and-fix-it routine. 784 00:38:16,392 --> 00:38:19,221 Is it your view we're gonna have Plato's Retreats... 785 00:38:19,245 --> 00:38:21,723 It's gonna be part of Oshkosh, Wisconsin, too someday? 786 00:38:21,747 --> 00:38:26,484 Within the next three months there will be four more Plato's Retreats around the country. 787 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,718 Larry started to believe the bullshit. 788 00:38:33,742 --> 00:38:36,721 I bullshit all the time when I'm interviewing. 789 00:38:36,745 --> 00:38:41,026 Larry did too, but Larry exaggerated the importance. 790 00:38:41,050 --> 00:38:43,561 I always argued, "It's just fucking." 791 00:38:43,585 --> 00:38:46,398 What is fucking? It's friction. 792 00:38:46,422 --> 00:38:49,317 You believe in a free society? 793 00:38:49,341 --> 00:38:51,787 A free society where people can just have a good time 794 00:38:51,811 --> 00:38:55,180 and enjoy themselves the way they want to, without hurting anybody else. 795 00:38:56,849 --> 00:38:58,827 It's a devastating therapy. 796 00:38:58,851 --> 00:39:01,169 - But it works for them. - Is it for them? 797 00:39:05,742 --> 00:39:08,971 I saw a fight between a couple there at Plato's once 798 00:39:08,995 --> 00:39:11,973 where the husband had found out 799 00:39:11,997 --> 00:39:15,811 that his wife had mended the pants 800 00:39:15,835 --> 00:39:18,147 for a man who was there. 801 00:39:18,171 --> 00:39:20,715 And in fact they'd had sex many times, 802 00:39:20,739 --> 00:39:24,019 but it was this little personal touch that showed affection 803 00:39:24,043 --> 00:39:25,988 that made the husband insane. 804 00:39:26,012 --> 00:39:28,757 I could never bring somebody special, somebody I cared about there. 805 00:39:28,781 --> 00:39:32,160 I couldn't handle my wife or my girlfriend being with somebody else. 806 00:39:32,184 --> 00:39:34,496 And me sitting and watching? 807 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,849 You really did see that sometimes 808 00:39:37,873 --> 00:39:41,920 that what they came out for bit them in the behind. 809 00:39:41,944 --> 00:39:44,923 They got more than what they really bargained for. 810 00:39:44,947 --> 00:39:47,242 If I wanted to have an affair with a man or sleep with a man 811 00:39:47,266 --> 00:39:50,795 that I felt attractive, I can do it. 812 00:39:50,819 --> 00:39:52,364 And Michael knows about it. 813 00:39:52,388 --> 00:39:54,072 It's like dual infidelity. 814 00:39:57,143 --> 00:40:00,622 Do you think Larry is faithful to you out of Plato's Retreat? 815 00:40:00,646 --> 00:40:02,708 For example, is he with other women, do you think? 816 00:40:02,732 --> 00:40:04,542 - Yes, very definitely. - How do you know? 817 00:40:04,566 --> 00:40:06,034 - I don't have time. - Trust. 818 00:40:07,686 --> 00:40:09,832 I believe Mary... 819 00:40:09,856 --> 00:40:12,357 Always had feelings for Larry. 820 00:40:13,893 --> 00:40:16,939 I think her whole life was wrapped around him, 821 00:40:16,963 --> 00:40:19,241 wrapped around the lifestyle. 822 00:40:19,265 --> 00:40:23,545 Most people look at Plato's as the new sexual lifestyle 823 00:40:23,569 --> 00:40:24,946 of the 21st century. 824 00:40:24,970 --> 00:40:26,765 Honestly what most people feel... 825 00:40:26,789 --> 00:40:28,433 I know this is another judgment... 826 00:40:28,457 --> 00:40:31,370 They feel something's gone wrong here. 827 00:40:31,394 --> 00:40:33,171 Well, maybe something has. 828 00:40:33,195 --> 00:40:36,859 Maybe every marriage in this country has a little something wrong with it. 829 00:40:36,883 --> 00:40:39,650 She knew the people. She knew the crowd. 830 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,198 And I think, like anything else, 831 00:40:43,222 --> 00:40:46,134 too much of something 832 00:40:46,158 --> 00:40:48,203 could freak you out. 833 00:40:48,227 --> 00:40:50,805 There was no Mary room. There was no... 834 00:40:50,829 --> 00:40:53,575 fancy room where Mary could sit up there and be queen 835 00:40:53,599 --> 00:40:55,544 and men would come and court her. 836 00:40:55,568 --> 00:40:58,703 They seemed to have a respectful relationship for a time. 837 00:41:01,674 --> 00:41:03,986 I don't have much more to add about that. 838 00:41:04,010 --> 00:41:05,921 No, I don't remember much more... same. 839 00:41:05,945 --> 00:41:07,589 - Are you married? - No, uh... 840 00:41:07,613 --> 00:41:09,391 - We were... I was... - Are you married? 841 00:41:09,415 --> 00:41:11,527 In strictly monogamous relationships. 842 00:41:11,551 --> 00:41:13,128 - In a sense... - You don't hear me. 843 00:41:13,152 --> 00:41:14,863 In a sense, David, we are married 844 00:41:14,887 --> 00:41:17,098 because I intend to spend the rest of my life with Larry 845 00:41:17,122 --> 00:41:19,300 whether he likes it or not, but, uh... 846 00:41:19,324 --> 00:41:21,927 - But technically no? - Technically no, we're not. 847 00:41:24,162 --> 00:41:26,040 What is the address of the new Plato's 848 00:41:26,064 --> 00:41:27,975 and what is the opening date? 849 00:41:27,999 --> 00:41:30,996 The grand opening will be December 5th, on a Friday night at 9:00 P.M. 850 00:41:31,020 --> 00:41:33,170 That's of this year, of course. 851 00:41:37,943 --> 00:41:40,872 When the 34th street location opened, 852 00:41:40,896 --> 00:41:42,508 it was hopping. 853 00:41:42,532 --> 00:41:44,142 This is the matt room. 854 00:41:44,166 --> 00:41:46,778 This is a place where you get 20, 30 couples in here at one time. 855 00:41:46,802 --> 00:41:49,631 You must be undressed to come in here. It's a beautiful sight. 856 00:41:49,655 --> 00:41:53,552 It was located directly across from McDonald's. 857 00:41:53,576 --> 00:41:57,662 And people used to say it had become the McDonald's of sex. 858 00:42:05,738 --> 00:42:07,983 I was this normal housewife person. 859 00:42:08,007 --> 00:42:10,541 My husband left, his girlfriend was having a baby. 860 00:42:13,045 --> 00:42:16,508 And you meet different people. I was working at the movie theater in the village. 861 00:42:16,532 --> 00:42:18,877 I was selling the tickets to "Rocky Horror." 862 00:42:18,901 --> 00:42:21,746 And the first time I went to Plato's, it seemed people... 863 00:42:21,770 --> 00:42:24,850 Like actually doing something in the open, 864 00:42:24,874 --> 00:42:27,308 you just... you don't believe what you saw. 865 00:42:32,347 --> 00:42:34,876 Because it was like turning a page in a magazine 866 00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:36,778 and you're sitting there 867 00:42:36,802 --> 00:42:39,231 and then you make up your mind. 868 00:42:39,255 --> 00:42:41,549 You know, you're either into it or you're not. 869 00:42:41,573 --> 00:42:43,274 And I was into it. 870 00:42:47,246 --> 00:42:50,025 One time I was standing there by the ladies' room 871 00:42:50,049 --> 00:42:52,427 in the back and a young girl came up to me, 872 00:42:52,451 --> 00:42:55,998 and she said to me, "are you outrageous?" 873 00:42:56,022 --> 00:42:59,367 And I said, "yes, I am." and with that I put my hand on her breast. 874 00:42:59,391 --> 00:43:01,636 She said, "perhaps you'd like to join us?" 875 00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:03,839 I said, "oh, thank you very much" 876 00:43:03,863 --> 00:43:06,765 and I was invited to go in this room with seven other ladies. 877 00:43:10,036 --> 00:43:12,814 Another time I was there with a young gentleman 878 00:43:12,838 --> 00:43:15,750 and he knew this couple: 879 00:43:15,774 --> 00:43:18,887 The lady was Chinese, the husband was a white gentleman. 880 00:43:18,911 --> 00:43:21,540 And he said to me, "You want to do something with them? 881 00:43:21,564 --> 00:43:24,108 The husband doesn't do anything. He just sits in the corner. 882 00:43:24,132 --> 00:43:26,445 We could be with the lady, the three of us." 883 00:43:26,469 --> 00:43:28,880 And I said okay. 884 00:43:28,904 --> 00:43:31,806 And the husband just sat there in the corner. 885 00:43:33,158 --> 00:43:36,021 Like touching his wife's shoulder, 886 00:43:36,045 --> 00:43:38,212 but not joining in. 887 00:43:39,431 --> 00:43:42,644 I was going to be President of the P.T.A. 888 00:43:42,668 --> 00:43:46,148 What do you want out of your life that you're not getting from Mary? 889 00:43:46,172 --> 00:43:48,833 That I am not getting from Mary? There is no man in the world 890 00:43:48,857 --> 00:43:50,702 that can say that his woman gives him 891 00:43:50,726 --> 00:43:53,071 every need that he has... That there is to have. 892 00:43:53,095 --> 00:43:55,690 I want as much as I can possibly have in this lifetime. 893 00:43:55,714 --> 00:43:57,959 And that's what I'm doing. I'm enjoying myself, 894 00:43:57,983 --> 00:43:59,995 I'm happy and that's the bottom line. 895 00:44:00,019 --> 00:44:03,248 One of his constant refrains whenever he was interviewed 896 00:44:03,272 --> 00:44:05,016 or talked to anybody was 897 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,453 swinging and Plato's will not save a bad marriage. 898 00:44:08,477 --> 00:44:12,023 It's something extra you do in a great marriage for fun. 899 00:44:12,047 --> 00:44:15,193 As swinging was explained to me by him when I was a kid 900 00:44:15,217 --> 00:44:17,228 was: There is no jealousy. 901 00:44:17,252 --> 00:44:21,299 You know? Swinging is a thing where couples are 902 00:44:21,323 --> 00:44:23,468 in a relationship with each other. 903 00:44:23,492 --> 00:44:26,337 Okay? They have feelings for each other 904 00:44:26,361 --> 00:44:28,940 as if non-swingers do. 905 00:44:28,964 --> 00:44:30,775 But the only difference is 906 00:44:30,799 --> 00:44:33,044 that when they're with someone else, 907 00:44:33,068 --> 00:44:35,436 it's just sex. There's no feelings. 908 00:44:37,657 --> 00:44:40,402 I never saw him going around with Mary. 909 00:44:40,426 --> 00:44:43,605 I never saw them having sex with other couples. 910 00:44:43,629 --> 00:44:45,791 It was always Larry. 911 00:44:45,815 --> 00:44:47,842 Do you have relationships with other men there? 912 00:44:47,866 --> 00:44:50,144 - Occasionally, yes. - Does he know about it? 913 00:44:50,168 --> 00:44:52,080 Yes. 914 00:44:52,104 --> 00:44:54,866 - Do you countenance it? - I think it's fantastic. 915 00:44:54,890 --> 00:44:57,235 Mary would be having a lot of men. 916 00:44:57,259 --> 00:45:00,605 You weren't really supposed to have a gangbang just out on the main floor. 917 00:45:00,629 --> 00:45:04,459 You were supposed to go somewhere, and Larry might speak to Mary about it, 918 00:45:04,483 --> 00:45:07,562 and then he'd go off and... Ohhh... you know, 919 00:45:07,586 --> 00:45:10,465 and say, "Mary's upset." 920 00:45:10,489 --> 00:45:14,168 We'd say, "Mary doesn't look upset. Mary looks like she's having a good time." 921 00:45:14,192 --> 00:45:15,893 "No, Mary's upset." 922 00:45:18,214 --> 00:45:20,191 She was losing Larry, 923 00:45:20,215 --> 00:45:24,662 not just to the lifestyle, but to one particular woman or another. 924 00:45:24,686 --> 00:45:27,331 Do you really believe that you can make love to a person one time 925 00:45:27,355 --> 00:45:29,835 and fall in love with them? I don't think it can happen. 926 00:45:29,859 --> 00:45:31,736 I really don't. I've never seen it happen. 927 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,439 He was there just to have sex. 928 00:45:34,463 --> 00:45:38,800 The whole thing was how many women he could get. 929 00:45:40,352 --> 00:45:43,131 She wasn't having it and I don't blame her. 930 00:45:43,155 --> 00:45:48,202 So she went on with this affair with the chauffeur. 931 00:45:48,226 --> 00:45:50,221 Mary and Larry were... were... 932 00:45:50,245 --> 00:45:52,940 He was starting to tell her to stay home, 933 00:45:52,964 --> 00:45:55,910 and the chauffeur knew both of them 934 00:45:55,934 --> 00:45:59,013 because he used to drive both of them to Plato's. 935 00:45:59,037 --> 00:46:01,116 It ended badly. 936 00:46:01,140 --> 00:46:03,318 They wanted to kill each other. 937 00:46:03,342 --> 00:46:05,653 The chauffeur was in love with Mary. 938 00:46:05,677 --> 00:46:07,755 Larry was in love with Mary. 939 00:46:07,779 --> 00:46:12,160 Mary was in love with the chauffeur... it was this big nasty triangle. 940 00:46:12,184 --> 00:46:14,713 - Larry would send Mary home with Ron. - Yeah. 941 00:46:14,737 --> 00:46:16,938 So maybe one thing led to another. 942 00:46:18,006 --> 00:46:20,485 I think in the end 943 00:46:20,509 --> 00:46:22,487 he... 944 00:46:22,511 --> 00:46:24,456 The chauffeur had Larry 945 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,891 kidnapped, beaten to a pulp, 946 00:46:26,915 --> 00:46:29,193 sent... put in the hospital 947 00:46:29,217 --> 00:46:32,096 in an effort to end it in his favor. 948 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,398 That's what I believe happened. 949 00:46:34,422 --> 00:46:37,219 - I never seen a guy that was beat... - So beat up. 950 00:46:37,243 --> 00:46:39,861 - I mean... - His face was like out to here. 951 00:46:43,548 --> 00:46:46,527 I think Larry Levenson wound up in the hospital 952 00:46:46,551 --> 00:46:50,464 in Queens stemming from this conflict 953 00:46:50,488 --> 00:46:52,901 between him, Mary and the chauffeur. 954 00:46:52,925 --> 00:46:56,421 After the kidnapping, Mary came by the club a couple of times. 955 00:46:56,445 --> 00:46:59,390 You know, she seemed basically out of it. 956 00:46:59,414 --> 00:47:02,994 You know, she was older and at one point she might have been the queen, 957 00:47:03,018 --> 00:47:04,552 but she definitely wasn't now. 958 00:47:13,495 --> 00:47:15,830 She almost wound up on the street. 959 00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:19,210 She was institutionalized, I believe, 960 00:47:19,234 --> 00:47:20,878 at Bellevue for a while 961 00:47:20,902 --> 00:47:23,237 and she did have a breakdown. 962 00:47:24,406 --> 00:47:27,385 She was really a nice woman. Nice lady. 963 00:47:27,409 --> 00:47:29,721 Maybe they made up that story that it was this guy 964 00:47:29,745 --> 00:47:31,723 - to stay away from the wiseguys. - Ron. 965 00:47:31,747 --> 00:47:33,225 We don't know. 966 00:47:33,249 --> 00:47:35,382 Why it happened, we never knew. 967 00:47:39,487 --> 00:47:42,317 But even then Larry was running around, like, in a wheelchair 968 00:47:42,341 --> 00:47:45,052 and he was perfectly fine. He was saying, "Aw, it's nothing." 969 00:47:45,076 --> 00:47:47,088 I'll be fine. I'll be walking." and he was. 970 00:47:47,112 --> 00:47:49,824 He was, like, smiling through it all. 971 00:47:49,848 --> 00:47:53,762 Plato's Retreat is an unlicensed club 972 00:47:53,786 --> 00:47:57,182 - for swinging couples, right? - We have a charter. 973 00:47:57,206 --> 00:47:59,918 In approximately July of 1979, 974 00:47:59,942 --> 00:48:02,470 there had been some newspaper article 975 00:48:02,494 --> 00:48:05,323 wherein Larry Levenson had 976 00:48:05,347 --> 00:48:07,358 stated and boasted that, 977 00:48:07,382 --> 00:48:10,194 "We don't pay taxes for Plato's Retreat Inc." 978 00:48:10,218 --> 00:48:12,229 We are definitely a non-profit corporation. 979 00:48:12,253 --> 00:48:15,333 - Now wait a minute, Larry. What do you mean a non-profit? - I'm telling you. 980 00:48:15,357 --> 00:48:18,703 Two gentlemen appeared 981 00:48:18,727 --> 00:48:21,205 9:00 in the morning. I'm half asleep. 982 00:48:21,229 --> 00:48:25,276 And they says, "We came here to see the books." 983 00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:27,635 So I gave them the books. 984 00:48:29,988 --> 00:48:32,306 I didn't know they were from the Internal Revenue. 985 00:48:35,377 --> 00:48:38,222 And they find out they got a gold mine in front of them, 986 00:48:38,246 --> 00:48:41,476 that these people have been cheating their income tax 987 00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:42,993 for three years. 988 00:48:43,017 --> 00:48:46,497 In one year I think they claimed only $300 989 00:48:46,521 --> 00:48:49,700 of taxable income and paid zero tax. 990 00:48:49,724 --> 00:48:52,587 Ann Grippo reentered the business room. 991 00:48:52,611 --> 00:48:56,524 She looked over our shoulder and was peering intently. 992 00:48:56,548 --> 00:48:58,960 She just blurted out voluntarily, 993 00:48:58,984 --> 00:49:00,862 "we're dead." 994 00:49:00,886 --> 00:49:03,014 I tried to take the books away from them. 995 00:49:03,038 --> 00:49:05,550 - Yeah? - And I did, I took the books. 996 00:49:05,574 --> 00:49:08,185 They didn't keep them. They weren't allowed to keep them. 997 00:49:08,209 --> 00:49:09,554 - Correct. - I took them. 998 00:49:09,578 --> 00:49:11,522 - But now they know that they have... - Wait. 999 00:49:11,546 --> 00:49:13,858 - So now you got the books back in your hand. - Yeah. 1000 00:49:13,882 --> 00:49:16,744 - Did you call Larry? - When they came in that night I told them what happened. 1001 00:49:16,768 --> 00:49:19,013 - You didn't do nothing till that night? - No, till that night. 1002 00:49:19,037 --> 00:49:22,650 Hy said to me, "You know, I covered our tracks here for three years. 1003 00:49:22,674 --> 00:49:24,386 Now we're dead." 1004 00:49:24,410 --> 00:49:27,755 There was nothing I could say or do 1005 00:49:27,779 --> 00:49:30,024 except that, "hey, I'm sorry." 1006 00:49:30,048 --> 00:49:33,577 When they came home that night, they packed their bags and they were gone. 1007 00:49:33,601 --> 00:49:37,215 They were so terrified that they were gonna get whacked. 1008 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:41,119 I didn't hear from them again... 1009 00:49:41,143 --> 00:49:42,887 It's funny. I laugh because 1010 00:49:42,911 --> 00:49:45,423 when I saw them again it was on TV. 1011 00:49:45,447 --> 00:49:47,408 Come on up here, Grippos. 1012 00:49:47,432 --> 00:49:49,277 Charlie and Ann Grippo. 1013 00:49:49,301 --> 00:49:52,263 Welcome. What did you yell, Charlie, when you were running up here? 1014 00:49:52,287 --> 00:49:55,000 - We're coming! - We're coming and we'll get it right 1015 00:49:55,024 --> 00:49:57,035 if it takes us all night. 1016 00:49:57,059 --> 00:50:00,838 He went onto some kind of quiz show in Vegas. 1017 00:50:00,862 --> 00:50:03,091 "Las Vegas Gambit." 1018 00:50:03,115 --> 00:50:04,692 - You're from where? - New York City. 1019 00:50:04,716 --> 00:50:06,660 - On vacation? - Yes. 1020 00:50:06,684 --> 00:50:08,980 I don't think we're sitting there five minutes. 1021 00:50:09,004 --> 00:50:11,315 Yeah, just about five minutes we heard... 1022 00:50:11,339 --> 00:50:13,257 We get two cards and it's blackjack. 1023 00:50:14,993 --> 00:50:17,989 - And you get $1,000. - And we win $1200. 1024 00:50:18,013 --> 00:50:19,547 Or $1,000. She jumps up... 1025 00:50:23,585 --> 00:50:26,270 We're gonna send you the tape. Funny as hell. 1026 00:50:27,572 --> 00:50:28,973 Hysterical. 1027 00:50:29,975 --> 00:50:32,454 My baby. Okay? Awww. 1028 00:50:32,478 --> 00:50:34,339 Baby, baby. 1029 00:50:34,363 --> 00:50:36,424 And I thought to myself, 1030 00:50:36,448 --> 00:50:39,160 "these guys are running from the mob and here they are 1031 00:50:39,184 --> 00:50:42,063 advertising who they..." 1032 00:50:42,087 --> 00:50:45,200 - We got a trip to the Super Bowl. - A washer-dryer. 1033 00:50:45,224 --> 00:50:47,168 And what about the V.C... Not a V.C.R., that... 1034 00:50:47,192 --> 00:50:49,187 - A Betamax. - The Betamax. 1035 00:50:49,211 --> 00:50:51,762 - We won a load of stuff. - A load of stuff. 1036 00:51:00,305 --> 00:51:03,818 It was a trial. On trial was Larry, 1037 00:51:03,842 --> 00:51:06,787 Hy, Frank, 1038 00:51:06,811 --> 00:51:08,362 the accountant. 1039 00:51:11,917 --> 00:51:15,997 Larry took the stand and tried to explain 1040 00:51:16,021 --> 00:51:17,698 the circumstances. 1041 00:51:17,722 --> 00:51:20,785 He believed that he was in a... a non-profit, 1042 00:51:20,809 --> 00:51:25,023 not-for-profit club and that he truly believed that. 1043 00:51:25,047 --> 00:51:27,742 Larry Levenson wasn't on the stand. 1044 00:51:27,766 --> 00:51:29,611 He was on the stage. 1045 00:51:29,635 --> 00:51:32,613 Everything was a joke to him, or so it appeared. 1046 00:51:32,637 --> 00:51:36,017 I think the jury, as I recall, was laughing at him. 1047 00:51:36,041 --> 00:51:38,119 The trial was completed. The jury deliberated 1048 00:51:38,143 --> 00:51:40,654 for approximately five or six hours, I believe. 1049 00:51:40,678 --> 00:51:43,180 And came back with guilty verdicts. 1050 00:51:49,888 --> 00:51:53,801 Larry Levenson, Frank Pernice, Hy Gordon received eight years plus a fine. 1051 00:51:53,825 --> 00:51:56,287 I think an eight-year jail sentence at that time 1052 00:51:56,311 --> 00:51:59,257 for this type of a tax evasion was something of a record. 1053 00:51:59,281 --> 00:52:02,860 What fucked him up was he was stealing cash. 1054 00:52:02,884 --> 00:52:04,895 And he did the dumbest thing of all. 1055 00:52:04,919 --> 00:52:07,232 If any of you ever do cash or have your own company, 1056 00:52:07,256 --> 00:52:09,567 you don't do it in front of employees, 1057 00:52:09,591 --> 00:52:13,387 'cause the guy who's working for you or the gal who's working for you, 1058 00:52:13,411 --> 00:52:17,391 you're gonna fire them or yell at them and they're gonna bring you down. 1059 00:52:17,415 --> 00:52:19,560 A lot of cash... 1060 00:52:19,584 --> 00:52:21,795 Just like Studio 54! 1061 00:52:21,819 --> 00:52:23,831 I don't believe he was stealing money, 1062 00:52:23,855 --> 00:52:27,168 I don't believe that he was creating books that... 1063 00:52:27,192 --> 00:52:29,170 Didn't exist. I mean... 1064 00:52:29,194 --> 00:52:34,041 Double books? Larry was being King of Swing. 1065 00:52:34,065 --> 00:52:36,210 The demeanor at the defense table changed. 1066 00:52:36,234 --> 00:52:39,647 All of a sudden there was silence upon the announcement of the verdict. 1067 00:52:39,671 --> 00:52:43,418 There was no more affable, class-clown Larry Levenson. 1068 00:52:43,442 --> 00:52:45,375 It was total silence. 1069 00:52:47,379 --> 00:52:50,975 If you break the law, there's 1070 00:52:50,999 --> 00:52:54,935 "If ya can't affords the time, ya don't commits the crime." 1071 00:52:57,439 --> 00:52:58,805 True. 1072 00:53:00,241 --> 00:53:03,120 ♪ Happiness, happiness ♪ 1073 00:53:03,144 --> 00:53:06,139 ♪ the greatest gift that I possess ♪ 1074 00:53:06,163 --> 00:53:09,258 ♪ I thank the lord that I've been blessed... ♪ 1075 00:53:09,282 --> 00:53:11,877 Some of you may have been wondering whatever happened to Larry Levenson? 1076 00:53:11,901 --> 00:53:14,647 He's here in Allenwood, which is a federal penitentiary. 1077 00:53:14,671 --> 00:53:16,683 It's considered a level-one prison. 1078 00:53:16,707 --> 00:53:20,102 In the trunk we'd have clothes, suitcases, 1079 00:53:20,126 --> 00:53:22,138 golf clubs, a tennis racket. 1080 00:53:22,162 --> 00:53:24,741 We thought it was a place where you basically just... 1081 00:53:24,765 --> 00:53:26,776 You hung out but you couldn't leave. 1082 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,795 The lack of sex... very rarely discussed or anything. 1083 00:53:29,819 --> 00:53:33,065 Everybody takes care of that situation by themselves, you know? 1084 00:53:33,089 --> 00:53:35,101 We were in constant communication. 1085 00:53:35,125 --> 00:53:37,771 - And he never complained about it, right? - Right. 1086 00:53:37,795 --> 00:53:40,440 ♪ The greatest gift that I possess ♪ 1087 00:53:40,464 --> 00:53:42,709 "Larry Levenson, you're okay, 1088 00:53:42,733 --> 00:53:44,244 even though you've gone away. 1089 00:53:44,268 --> 00:53:46,546 You got into an awful mess. 1090 00:53:46,570 --> 00:53:49,282 You just can't fuck with the I.R.S." 1091 00:53:49,306 --> 00:53:51,901 Plato's without Larry was like Easter 1092 00:53:51,925 --> 00:53:53,970 at the Vatican without the Pope. 1093 00:53:53,994 --> 00:53:57,963 The Pope had this tracheotomy and the Christians are running amok. 1094 00:54:07,574 --> 00:54:10,053 Without Larry, Plato's took a big dive. 1095 00:54:10,077 --> 00:54:12,088 And it wasn't Plato's anymore. It wasn't... 1096 00:54:12,112 --> 00:54:13,923 It wasn't even wholesome anymore. 1097 00:54:13,947 --> 00:54:16,960 You know? Because without that benevolent heart behind it, 1098 00:54:16,984 --> 00:54:20,086 it was just a tacky swingers club, you know? 1099 00:54:21,688 --> 00:54:24,918 It required a lot more people to fill the place. 1100 00:54:24,942 --> 00:54:28,722 So they had special parties... sometimes they would have kinky nights. 1101 00:54:28,746 --> 00:54:31,774 I, uh, use the... Uh, the Pussy Propulsion 1102 00:54:31,798 --> 00:54:33,949 which is the basis for all space travel. 1103 00:54:35,352 --> 00:54:38,582 Belle du jour presents an S&M costume ball 1104 00:54:38,606 --> 00:54:41,067 and dinner party. Do they have to be in costume? 1105 00:54:41,091 --> 00:54:43,359 Not necessarily, but it would be fun. 1106 00:54:46,146 --> 00:54:49,731 I'm here every Tuesday and it starts at 8:15. 1107 00:54:50,784 --> 00:54:53,112 And I fulfill all their fantasies 1108 00:54:53,136 --> 00:54:55,905 in S&M... 1109 00:54:56,957 --> 00:54:59,436 and all erotic fantasies. 1110 00:54:59,460 --> 00:55:01,170 Sounds good to me. 1111 00:55:01,194 --> 00:55:03,813 I'm Danny the wonder pony. I give women pony rides. 1112 00:55:05,215 --> 00:55:07,126 I dance in a fashion that makes them 1113 00:55:07,150 --> 00:55:09,161 look and feel like they're riding a pony, 1114 00:55:09,185 --> 00:55:11,380 Except to the music. 1115 00:55:11,404 --> 00:55:14,523 And if you've ever watched a woman ride a horse, it's very erotic. 1116 00:55:19,429 --> 00:55:23,349 He had foxy boxing, which was girls fighting each other. 1117 00:55:25,252 --> 00:55:27,964 Okay, stick around. Next match coming soon. 1118 00:55:27,988 --> 00:55:30,433 The amusing part of that is in between each round 1119 00:55:30,457 --> 00:55:32,758 the girls would throw up in a bucket. 1120 00:55:34,127 --> 00:55:35,795 There were brothers and sisters. 1121 00:55:37,932 --> 00:55:41,411 Those things weren't as taboo as they are now. 1122 00:55:41,435 --> 00:55:43,446 ♪ If you like what we're doing when we're doing what we're doing ♪ 1123 00:55:43,470 --> 00:55:45,682 ♪ come on, clap your hands ♪ 1124 00:55:45,706 --> 00:55:47,784 ♪ if you like what we're doing when we're doing what we're doing ♪ 1125 00:55:47,808 --> 00:55:49,508 ♪ hey-yyyy! ♪ 1126 00:55:51,695 --> 00:55:54,006 I remember they had girls up there... 1127 00:55:54,030 --> 00:55:56,359 I think they were porno stars... performing, 1128 00:55:56,383 --> 00:55:58,044 doing musical feats. 1129 00:55:58,068 --> 00:56:00,969 ♪ Party party ♪ 1130 00:56:02,322 --> 00:56:05,418 ♪ party party... ♪ 1131 00:56:05,442 --> 00:56:07,687 And there were men in the audience 1132 00:56:07,711 --> 00:56:10,456 who were masturbating... 1133 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,381 If my memory serves me correct. 1134 00:56:15,852 --> 00:56:17,597 Don't you, on certain levels, 1135 00:56:17,621 --> 00:56:19,782 feel that swinging sort of has shot its load? 1136 00:56:19,806 --> 00:56:24,053 That it's a tired phenomena that dates back more to the '60s and '70s? 1137 00:56:24,077 --> 00:56:27,607 - And for the '80s nobody really gives a shit? - No, on the contrary. 1138 00:56:27,631 --> 00:56:31,077 I think swinging is just now really coming into its own. 1139 00:56:31,101 --> 00:56:34,047 While Larry was in jail he did these little 1140 00:56:34,071 --> 00:56:35,765 weekly announcements that were really cute. 1141 00:56:35,789 --> 00:56:37,183 What about your job? 1142 00:56:37,207 --> 00:56:40,637 - Did you say you worked in the sewer system? - Yeah. 1143 00:56:40,661 --> 00:56:42,805 We would set up a tape recorder 1144 00:56:42,829 --> 00:56:44,974 that was attached to the telephone. 1145 00:56:44,998 --> 00:56:47,343 He wants to be heard 1146 00:56:47,367 --> 00:56:49,212 from prison or no. 1147 00:56:49,236 --> 00:56:51,331 - What do you do? - I test the... 1148 00:56:51,355 --> 00:56:53,165 The garbage, what? Do you eat it? 1149 00:56:53,189 --> 00:56:56,001 Yeah, the waste and everything. No, the amoeba eats it. 1150 00:56:56,025 --> 00:56:59,038 He had senators there with him. He had judges there with him. 1151 00:56:59,062 --> 00:57:02,708 He had lawyers there with him. It was not a terrible place to be. 1152 00:57:02,732 --> 00:57:05,928 When that water goes into the river, you can actually drink it. 1153 00:57:05,952 --> 00:57:09,037 ♪ Happiness! ♪ 1154 00:57:13,276 --> 00:57:16,439 I got a phone call from a friend of mine who says, "you're not going to believe this. 1155 00:57:16,463 --> 00:57:19,342 I just heard on the radio that the King of Swing 1156 00:57:19,366 --> 00:57:21,143 is home from prison." 1157 00:57:21,167 --> 00:57:23,229 I just want to say now, ladies and gentlemen, 1158 00:57:23,253 --> 00:57:25,465 that I am more than proud to present 1159 00:57:25,489 --> 00:57:29,719 for the first time back here in 32 months, 1160 00:57:29,743 --> 00:57:32,705 the man responsible for creating Plato's Retreat, 1161 00:57:32,729 --> 00:57:35,141 ladies and gentlemen, the owner, the creator 1162 00:57:35,165 --> 00:57:38,244 of Plato's Retreat, the King of Swing, 1163 00:57:38,268 --> 00:57:42,248 Mr. Larry Levenson. Come right out, gang. 1164 00:57:42,272 --> 00:57:45,835 Okay, Larry Levenson, skinnier, his dick is bigger. 1165 00:57:45,859 --> 00:57:49,622 Here he is, Larry, back from 32 months of homosexuality. 1166 00:57:49,646 --> 00:57:52,792 What's it like to be here at the place, the dream you created? 1167 00:57:52,816 --> 00:57:55,862 You know, the person who doesn't know how to answer you. 1168 00:57:55,886 --> 00:57:58,547 - You're such a slob. - We're here with his lovely mother Renee. 1169 00:57:58,571 --> 00:58:02,452 Renee, how do you feel that your son broke out of prison and is here at Plato's today? 1170 00:58:02,476 --> 00:58:06,422 I should have expected something like this from you, Al. I'm not the least bit surprised. 1171 00:58:06,446 --> 00:58:10,126 It's not true you called the parole board and said, "keep the bastard"? 1172 00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:12,795 No, you did that, honey. You were a little mixed up. 1173 00:58:12,819 --> 00:58:15,531 ♪ And you try to show ♪ 1174 00:58:15,555 --> 00:58:18,734 ♪ your love for me. ♪ 1175 00:58:18,758 --> 00:58:20,870 I'm thrilled to no end right now 1176 00:58:20,894 --> 00:58:25,024 as I look around and see you friendly faces, 1177 00:58:25,048 --> 00:58:29,051 faces of old friends and soon-to-be new friends. 1178 00:58:31,788 --> 00:58:35,251 To you members that frequent Plato's, 1179 00:58:35,275 --> 00:58:39,538 our club is much more than a sexual haven. 1180 00:58:39,562 --> 00:58:42,147 We are the closest thing to a family here. 1181 00:58:50,857 --> 00:58:54,236 I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna make this club better than ever, 1182 00:58:54,260 --> 00:58:57,490 and we're gonna have more fun than ever and it's just gonna be beautiful. 1183 00:58:57,514 --> 00:58:59,959 Larry, we welcome you back and congratulations 1184 00:58:59,983 --> 00:59:02,011 on completing the 32-month Allenwood diet. 1185 00:59:02,035 --> 00:59:06,015 Everything hits a peak, so there was a peak for sexuality. 1186 00:59:06,039 --> 00:59:07,884 There was a peak for disco. 1187 00:59:07,908 --> 00:59:11,754 ♪ Karma karma karma karma karma chameleon... ♪ 1188 00:59:11,778 --> 00:59:15,625 The club was in a decline and so was Larry. 1189 00:59:15,649 --> 00:59:17,727 Were we distressed about it? 1190 00:59:17,751 --> 00:59:19,095 Yes. 1191 00:59:19,119 --> 00:59:21,897 Come down and fulfill your most fantastic fantasies 1192 00:59:21,921 --> 00:59:24,601 and stimulate your wildest dreams. 1193 00:59:24,625 --> 00:59:26,669 ♪ Oh yes, it's ladies' night ♪ 1194 00:59:26,693 --> 00:59:28,904 ♪ and the feeling's right... ♪ 1195 00:59:28,928 --> 00:59:32,024 Is it going to be ladies' night every Monday, do you know? 1196 00:59:32,048 --> 00:59:35,295 Ladies' night, 6:00-9:00; then 9:00 the men come in. 1197 00:59:35,319 --> 00:59:37,863 They would have at Plato's singles nights 1198 00:59:37,887 --> 00:59:41,100 to kind of introduce people who never swung before. 1199 00:59:41,124 --> 00:59:42,602 ♪ Oh yes, it's ladies' night ♪ 1200 00:59:42,626 --> 00:59:44,520 ♪ oh, what a night, oh, what a night... ♪ 1201 00:59:44,544 --> 00:59:46,338 There'd be stripper after stripper 1202 00:59:46,362 --> 00:59:48,190 and the women are getting wilder and wilder. 1203 00:59:48,214 --> 00:59:51,427 Then 9:00, or a couple of hours later, 1204 00:59:51,451 --> 00:59:53,730 the men... the single men would be allowed in. 1205 00:59:53,754 --> 00:59:56,399 And these guys were horny fucks. 1206 00:59:56,423 --> 00:59:59,518 Then what they'd do though, they'd have to have a lot more girls 1207 00:59:59,542 --> 01:00:01,577 that would be like girls that would be hired. 1208 01:00:05,782 --> 01:00:07,994 But you couldn't necessarily separate 1209 01:00:08,018 --> 01:00:09,895 the prostitutes from the wives 1210 01:00:09,919 --> 01:00:12,147 because the wives were kind of doing themselves up 1211 01:00:12,171 --> 01:00:13,616 like prostitutes often. 1212 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:15,567 There was coke everywhere. 1213 01:00:15,591 --> 01:00:18,304 And everybody used it to stay awake, 1214 01:00:18,328 --> 01:00:20,757 to keep going, for this, that and the other thing, 1215 01:00:20,781 --> 01:00:21,924 to feel better. 1216 01:00:21,948 --> 01:00:24,727 Stay up, keep going, 1217 01:00:24,751 --> 01:00:26,662 Don't stop. 1218 01:00:26,686 --> 01:00:28,721 I'm gonna have fun. 1219 01:00:31,191 --> 01:00:34,937 Prostitution was the tail that wagged the dog. 1220 01:00:34,961 --> 01:00:38,474 Because I believe 40%-50% of the girls there 1221 01:00:38,498 --> 01:00:41,710 every night, with their, quote, date, 1222 01:00:41,734 --> 01:00:44,613 were hookers. And I know that to be a fact 1223 01:00:44,637 --> 01:00:46,782 because the hookers advertised in "screw." 1224 01:00:46,806 --> 01:00:49,985 I remember I met an African-American woman 1225 01:00:50,009 --> 01:00:52,705 and we went into the back and we went into one of the rooms 1226 01:00:52,729 --> 01:00:55,708 and the next thing she stuck her hand out and she wanted money from me. 1227 01:00:55,732 --> 01:00:57,977 And I just didn't have it, you know? 1228 01:00:58,001 --> 01:01:01,214 She said, "Well, I'm sorry." 1229 01:01:01,238 --> 01:01:04,300 There was just this... A sense of impending doom. 1230 01:01:04,324 --> 01:01:06,803 But I don't know how much we talked about it. 1231 01:01:06,827 --> 01:01:09,038 It lost the warmth. 1232 01:01:09,062 --> 01:01:11,074 And that wasn't, I think, just the steam 1233 01:01:11,098 --> 01:01:13,842 rising off of all that water they had going in there. 1234 01:01:13,866 --> 01:01:17,413 It was moving towards that point in the '80s 1235 01:01:17,437 --> 01:01:20,439 when sex was terrifying. 1236 01:01:32,752 --> 01:01:36,499 ♪ I've just closed my eyes again... ♪ 1237 01:01:36,523 --> 01:01:39,469 AIDS reduces the number of helper cells in the blood. 1238 01:01:39,493 --> 01:01:42,838 Therefore the body has no way of either detecting 1239 01:01:42,862 --> 01:01:45,992 or attacking certain infections. 1240 01:01:46,016 --> 01:01:51,470 ♪ Driver, take away my worries of today... ♪ 1241 01:01:52,839 --> 01:01:56,685 When AIDS first hit, nobody even knew what it was yet. 1242 01:01:56,709 --> 01:01:59,122 No one quite knew how it was transmitted. 1243 01:01:59,146 --> 01:02:02,492 - No one knew how to have safe sex. - ♪ dream Weaver ♪ 1244 01:02:02,516 --> 01:02:07,512 ♪ I believe you can get me through the night... ♪ 1245 01:02:07,536 --> 01:02:10,983 The people who cared about their lives stopped going to sex clubs. 1246 01:02:11,007 --> 01:02:14,670 And so you got a more hardcore, self-destructive 1247 01:02:14,694 --> 01:02:18,613 - group of people. - ♪ Dream Weaver. ♪ 1248 01:02:22,936 --> 01:02:25,881 All this talk about AIDS, aren't you worried about it? 1249 01:02:25,905 --> 01:02:27,883 Being with so many different men? 1250 01:02:27,907 --> 01:02:31,237 Larry, I've never heard of a woman that has contacted AIDS 1251 01:02:31,261 --> 01:02:34,006 through sexual intercourse. 1252 01:02:34,030 --> 01:02:37,476 I went from one extreme to the other, 1253 01:02:37,500 --> 01:02:41,113 saying "this is not something you get a shot for, 1254 01:02:41,137 --> 01:02:44,516 or take a pill for. This is your life. 1255 01:02:44,540 --> 01:02:49,294 And you need to rethink your priorities in life."- 1256 01:02:50,830 --> 01:02:53,576 And I say god was kind and I was spared. 1257 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,179 Some other people were not that lucky. 1258 01:02:56,203 --> 01:03:00,967 That 73% of the AIDS cases are in homosexuals, 1259 01:03:00,991 --> 01:03:03,302 this is put out by the State of New York, Dr. Axelrod. 1260 01:03:03,326 --> 01:03:06,038 Wait, let me... let me finish. 1261 01:03:06,062 --> 01:03:07,940 Sir... sir, let me finish. 1262 01:03:07,964 --> 01:03:12,428 It was like a ghost town. For about 30 days, 1263 01:03:12,452 --> 01:03:14,163 it was like nobody. 1264 01:03:14,187 --> 01:03:16,582 Everybody was just scared. They didn't even know 1265 01:03:16,606 --> 01:03:18,384 if you could get it mouth to mouth. 1266 01:03:18,408 --> 01:03:20,703 The St. Marks Bathhouse was shut down 1267 01:03:20,727 --> 01:03:23,989 after undercover inspectors reported that they had observed 1268 01:03:24,013 --> 01:03:27,109 49 acts of high-risk sexual activity 1269 01:03:27,133 --> 01:03:30,012 involving more than 80 people. 1270 01:03:30,036 --> 01:03:33,165 Only medical science 1271 01:03:33,189 --> 01:03:35,551 can ever truly defeat AIDS. 1272 01:03:35,575 --> 01:03:38,871 I think that Koch, who I admired, 1273 01:03:38,895 --> 01:03:41,808 wanted to bust down on the gay clubs. 1274 01:03:41,832 --> 01:03:45,317 To make things even, he busted down on Plato's. 1275 01:03:47,487 --> 01:03:50,699 They said that AIDS did go through Plato's Retreat. 1276 01:03:50,723 --> 01:03:53,136 No, they came down and interviewed me. 1277 01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:54,904 And that's all they did. 1278 01:03:54,928 --> 01:03:58,574 And we found out since that with the smell of chlorine 1279 01:03:58,598 --> 01:04:00,743 in the air at Plato's Retreat, 1280 01:04:00,767 --> 01:04:03,412 the AIDS virus does not have a chance. 1281 01:04:03,436 --> 01:04:05,381 It just happens to be a factual thing. 1282 01:04:05,405 --> 01:04:08,083 One of the key parts of the effort would be 1283 01:04:08,107 --> 01:04:10,619 to collect evidence, which if it was necessary, 1284 01:04:10,643 --> 01:04:13,322 if it became necessary to seek to close a place down, 1285 01:04:13,346 --> 01:04:15,842 this is the kind of evidence that would hold up in court. 1286 01:04:15,866 --> 01:04:18,393 Larry had signs posted. 1287 01:04:18,417 --> 01:04:21,880 And he has his security that are walking around actually telling people, 1288 01:04:21,904 --> 01:04:24,816 "Wait till this little thing is over with. But right now, 1289 01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,553 we can't allow anal sex, we can't allow oral sex on a guy." 1290 01:04:27,577 --> 01:04:31,256 The law prohibits anal sex and fellatio. 1291 01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,493 - Excuse me? - You can have sexual intercourse 1292 01:04:34,517 --> 01:04:36,351 legally on Plato's premises. 1293 01:04:37,854 --> 01:04:39,064 Hello? 1294 01:04:39,088 --> 01:04:42,067 Some of the inspectors were so... 1295 01:04:42,091 --> 01:04:45,604 uh, overwhelmed... 1296 01:04:45,628 --> 01:04:48,491 Distressed by what they saw 1297 01:04:48,515 --> 01:04:51,744 that they needed actually counseling 1298 01:04:51,768 --> 01:04:53,779 and counseling was provided. 1299 01:04:53,803 --> 01:04:56,081 "Government of the people, for the people 1300 01:04:56,105 --> 01:04:58,617 and by the people should not perish from this earth." 1301 01:04:58,641 --> 01:05:01,153 Now Mr. Koch is trying to tell me that the people 1302 01:05:01,177 --> 01:05:03,355 have nothing to do with government. 1303 01:05:03,379 --> 01:05:06,515 It's like a war. You're fighting the city. 1304 01:05:12,855 --> 01:05:15,201 I want to talk to the fat guy on the right. 1305 01:05:15,225 --> 01:05:17,553 There are two fat guys here. Which one? 1306 01:05:17,577 --> 01:05:19,688 On the right? Go ahead, fat guy. 1307 01:05:19,712 --> 01:05:22,290 - What do you have to say? - Do you suck? 1308 01:05:22,314 --> 01:05:23,826 Oh, you're a moron. 1309 01:05:23,850 --> 01:05:26,395 Good evening. Plato's Retreat is the latest casualty 1310 01:05:26,419 --> 01:05:28,821 in New York's war on dangerous sex. 1311 01:05:35,127 --> 01:05:37,606 Inspectors would come in and they described what to us 1312 01:05:37,630 --> 01:05:40,209 seemed like prostitution activities. 1313 01:05:40,233 --> 01:05:43,312 In its prime, thousands of heterosexual couples 1314 01:05:43,336 --> 01:05:45,314 flocked to Plato's Retreat. 1315 01:05:45,338 --> 01:05:48,317 But the party came to a halt at the well-known nightclub. 1316 01:05:48,341 --> 01:05:50,770 Minutes before its scheduled opening, 1317 01:05:50,794 --> 01:05:54,289 city officials closed the venue on charges of prostitution. 1318 01:05:54,313 --> 01:05:56,692 The city knows as everybody else knows 1319 01:05:56,716 --> 01:05:59,061 we never allowed prostitution on our premises, 1320 01:05:59,085 --> 01:06:00,963 and I always say that we never will. 1321 01:06:00,987 --> 01:06:02,514 So we went in there 1322 01:06:02,538 --> 01:06:04,817 and the judge signed the preliminary injunction. 1323 01:06:04,841 --> 01:06:07,153 It went to an appellate court and the appellate court 1324 01:06:07,177 --> 01:06:09,244 changed the temporary closing order. 1325 01:06:11,247 --> 01:06:13,492 - Hello, you're on the air. - Yeah, hi. 1326 01:06:13,516 --> 01:06:16,561 Um, can you tell me what the status of the club is right now? 1327 01:06:16,585 --> 01:06:21,100 And, um... is it still closed or what are they doing at this point? 1328 01:06:21,124 --> 01:06:23,402 - At Plato's, you mean, sir? - Yes, sir. 1329 01:06:23,426 --> 01:06:25,360 Plato's Retreat is now open. 1330 01:06:26,962 --> 01:06:29,942 The place is reopened and we send inspectors in there again. 1331 01:06:29,966 --> 01:06:32,945 And within a short period of time, the inspectors are coming back 1332 01:06:32,969 --> 01:06:35,380 and they're saying, "forget about prostitution now. 1333 01:06:35,404 --> 01:06:37,349 We're seeing high-risk sexual activities." 1334 01:06:37,373 --> 01:06:40,719 Starting tonight for the next year, 1335 01:06:40,743 --> 01:06:44,089 all profits made by Plato's Retreat, 1336 01:06:44,113 --> 01:06:47,826 will be donated to AIDS research. 1337 01:06:47,850 --> 01:06:50,579 Two weeks later, New Year's Eve, boof! 1338 01:06:50,603 --> 01:06:52,214 We get closed for good. 1339 01:06:52,238 --> 01:06:54,617 Tonight the city closed Plato's Retreat, that notorious 1340 01:06:54,641 --> 01:06:56,942 heterosexual sex club on Manhattan's West Side. 1341 01:06:59,179 --> 01:07:01,123 Plato's Retreat is more than just a club. 1342 01:07:01,147 --> 01:07:03,859 It's an institution. It's a monument to sexual freedom. 1343 01:07:03,883 --> 01:07:05,628 And they set us back 50 years. 1344 01:07:05,652 --> 01:07:08,363 Plato's was then closed on December 31st. 1345 01:07:08,387 --> 01:07:11,389 And actually, it never reopened after that. 1346 01:07:15,845 --> 01:07:19,909 I remember driving up at 7:30 and seeing the door padlocked 1347 01:07:19,933 --> 01:07:22,077 with the police tape on it. 1348 01:07:22,101 --> 01:07:23,412 And... 1349 01:07:23,436 --> 01:07:26,014 there was no notice, no nothing. 1350 01:07:26,038 --> 01:07:29,184 They didn't tell anyone that we're going to be closing you down. 1351 01:07:29,208 --> 01:07:30,853 They just came on New Year's Eve. 1352 01:07:30,877 --> 01:07:32,421 I think it was to spank them. 1353 01:07:32,445 --> 01:07:34,840 Larry's really really upset. He's almost holding back tears. 1354 01:07:34,864 --> 01:07:37,509 You could see it. Because now he knows that the city just crippled him 1355 01:07:37,533 --> 01:07:40,145 and he's looking at the future. He goes, "I can't stay open, Ron. 1356 01:07:40,169 --> 01:07:42,881 The money I made from New Year's Eve was going to keep me going with rent." 1357 01:07:42,905 --> 01:07:45,234 Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. 1358 01:07:45,258 --> 01:07:48,103 Everything fell apart: All the connections, 1359 01:07:48,127 --> 01:07:50,405 the phone calls... Everything stopped. 1360 01:07:50,429 --> 01:07:53,475 We have no meeting ground anymore. 1361 01:07:53,499 --> 01:07:56,378 We have no home for the family anymore. 1362 01:07:56,402 --> 01:07:59,181 So everybody takes off to different areas. 1363 01:07:59,205 --> 01:08:01,851 Everybody goes back to real life. 1364 01:08:01,875 --> 01:08:04,787 From what I could see, most clubs in Manhattan 1365 01:08:04,811 --> 01:08:07,389 lasted a few years. They'd be really hot, 1366 01:08:07,413 --> 01:08:10,859 maybe six, eight, 10 years and then they'd close down. 1367 01:08:10,883 --> 01:08:12,951 And people were on to the new club. 1368 01:08:15,521 --> 01:08:18,957 I think Plato's kind of died a natural death actually. 1369 01:08:20,660 --> 01:08:23,672 It might have had a little help. 1370 01:08:23,696 --> 01:08:26,348 It was a different era then with everything that was going on. 1371 01:08:27,750 --> 01:08:31,230 A place like that... It wasn't going to last anyway. 1372 01:08:31,254 --> 01:08:33,288 A lot of people... 1373 01:08:34,657 --> 01:08:36,952 Just couldn't... Don't like the lifestyle 1374 01:08:36,976 --> 01:08:38,620 so they put it down, 1375 01:08:38,644 --> 01:08:41,339 like our mayors and our governors. 1376 01:08:41,363 --> 01:08:44,276 But meanwhile they're the ones in here. 1377 01:08:44,300 --> 01:08:46,796 It was like, "We should all sing 'Old Lang Sone'..." 1378 01:08:46,820 --> 01:08:48,463 "Old Lang..." 1379 01:08:48,487 --> 01:08:50,899 - "Syne." - Whatever. "'Old Lang whatever.'" 1380 01:08:50,923 --> 01:08:53,485 After the club closed 1381 01:08:53,509 --> 01:08:56,822 I think that's when it took him over completely. 1382 01:08:56,846 --> 01:09:00,492 I think that's when Larry really 1383 01:09:00,516 --> 01:09:03,295 fell into hard times... 1384 01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:05,954 No finances. 1385 01:09:08,440 --> 01:09:10,986 Tonight we're talking with Larry Levenson. 1386 01:09:11,010 --> 01:09:14,023 Larry was the owner of Plato's Retreat. 1387 01:09:14,047 --> 01:09:18,844 Plato's Retreat was the largest swing club in New York. 1388 01:09:18,868 --> 01:09:22,564 He was the original prototype swinger. 1389 01:09:22,588 --> 01:09:25,400 That was his life. That was why he started the club. 1390 01:09:25,424 --> 01:09:28,537 And basically the club ended because of that narcissism. 1391 01:09:28,561 --> 01:09:31,390 You start believing it and you think you can do no wrong 1392 01:09:31,414 --> 01:09:33,392 and you're gonna beat the system. 1393 01:09:33,416 --> 01:09:36,579 Larry was depressed. And I'd visit him in his apartment in Brooklyn 1394 01:09:36,603 --> 01:09:38,414 and he'd be doing crack cocaine. 1395 01:09:38,438 --> 01:09:41,116 And he's sweating... "Larry, you're sweating like a pig. 1396 01:09:41,140 --> 01:09:43,185 It doesn't look like you're having fun." 1397 01:09:43,209 --> 01:09:46,338 He goes, "trust me. It's a nice feeling and it takes away the pain." 1398 01:09:46,362 --> 01:09:49,125 He went to parents without partners and he was enjoying that 1399 01:09:49,149 --> 01:09:50,993 and meeting lots of different people. 1400 01:09:51,017 --> 01:09:53,629 And he did meet Marilyn there. 1401 01:09:53,653 --> 01:09:55,798 - I just got engaged last week. - Mazel tov. 1402 01:09:55,822 --> 01:09:57,766 - A beautiful young lady, yeah. - Mazel tov. 1403 01:09:57,790 --> 01:10:00,302 - Yeah, I'm very happy. - And she's sweet woman. 1404 01:10:00,326 --> 01:10:02,604 She is wonderful. And the whole point is 1405 01:10:02,628 --> 01:10:04,162 what do I want to do with my life? 1406 01:10:10,402 --> 01:10:12,714 Don't know how long it was good. 1407 01:10:12,738 --> 01:10:17,519 I do remember one incident where he asked me to go to the house 1408 01:10:17,543 --> 01:10:19,187 and pick up a check. 1409 01:10:19,211 --> 01:10:21,623 He got divorced again, so now... 1410 01:10:21,647 --> 01:10:24,826 now he's back to being single and he's back in Brooklyn again. 1411 01:10:24,850 --> 01:10:26,979 Remember he was driving a cab? 1412 01:10:27,003 --> 01:10:29,448 He was driving a cab, I remember that. 1413 01:10:29,472 --> 01:10:33,835 ♪ I still get that same old feeling ♪ 1414 01:10:33,859 --> 01:10:36,605 ♪ tearing at this heart of mine... ♪ 1415 01:10:36,629 --> 01:10:38,674 I hailed a yellow cab. I got in. 1416 01:10:38,698 --> 01:10:42,812 And sometimes I have a habit of looking at the hack license. 1417 01:10:42,836 --> 01:10:45,848 When my dad had the club, he had all the friends. 1418 01:10:45,872 --> 01:10:48,216 Everybody wanted to hang out with him. 1419 01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:51,053 Then when he didn't have the club, they were gone. 1420 01:10:51,077 --> 01:10:53,272 I saw the name Larry Levenson. 1421 01:10:53,296 --> 01:10:56,475 And I kept saying, "Larry Levenson, Larry Levenson? 1422 01:10:56,499 --> 01:10:58,810 That's the man who owned Plato's." 1423 01:10:58,834 --> 01:11:02,180 You have to pick and choose who your friends are. 1424 01:11:02,204 --> 01:11:06,608 And you have to stay grounded. I think my dad was never grounded. 1425 01:11:10,864 --> 01:11:15,077 I thought that we were a great family. 1426 01:11:15,101 --> 01:11:17,980 And I really believed, truly, 1427 01:11:18,004 --> 01:11:20,582 that we were a community. 1428 01:11:20,606 --> 01:11:23,819 But I guess I was mistaken. 1429 01:11:23,843 --> 01:11:26,822 It was me... 1430 01:11:26,846 --> 01:11:28,757 that felt that. 1431 01:11:28,781 --> 01:11:31,216 I was the king. 1432 01:11:32,485 --> 01:11:35,814 One day he invited us to Brooklyn to see his house. 1433 01:11:35,838 --> 01:11:38,567 And he lived down in the basement because... 1434 01:11:38,591 --> 01:11:41,202 The brick building, he rented upstairs... 1435 01:11:41,226 --> 01:11:43,305 I guess the two floors. 1436 01:11:43,329 --> 01:11:47,142 And I was shocked the way he lives down in the basement with cats and everything. 1437 01:11:47,166 --> 01:11:50,979 It both... my mind... how could he live in a basement? 1438 01:11:51,003 --> 01:11:54,383 Then he took us out for a nice lobster dinner. 1439 01:11:54,407 --> 01:11:56,618 He had just gone through heart surgery. 1440 01:11:56,642 --> 01:12:00,055 He was in the hospital. We were living down here. 1441 01:12:00,079 --> 01:12:03,825 He had had a heart attack. He was in the intensive care unit. 1442 01:12:03,849 --> 01:12:06,694 I brought some flowers for his nurses. 1443 01:12:06,718 --> 01:12:09,364 He seemed in good spirits. 1444 01:12:09,388 --> 01:12:11,683 When I heard that Larry Levenson 1445 01:12:11,707 --> 01:12:15,854 died from a heart attack and that he'd become a cab driver 1446 01:12:15,878 --> 01:12:19,324 I just thought, "wow, that was just so hard to reconcile 1447 01:12:19,348 --> 01:12:22,527 that the king of Plato's Retreat 1448 01:12:22,551 --> 01:12:26,364 Could end up like a broken-down old hack." 1449 01:12:26,388 --> 01:12:28,967 I just remember getting a phone call that Larry's passed away. 1450 01:12:28,991 --> 01:12:32,477 I was pretty miserable for quite a while. It was one of the ones that really hurt. 1451 01:12:51,630 --> 01:12:54,559 When Larry started Plato's, 1452 01:12:54,583 --> 01:12:57,029 We were still in that period where 1453 01:12:57,053 --> 01:12:59,898 sex wasn't just sex and pleasure, 1454 01:12:59,922 --> 01:13:02,467 it was also about kind of revolution, 1455 01:13:02,491 --> 01:13:04,469 a breaking with the past. 1456 01:13:04,493 --> 01:13:08,440 I think the only difference between Larry and many men in our society 1457 01:13:08,464 --> 01:13:11,876 and culture is that Larry didn't hesitate to talk about it 1458 01:13:11,900 --> 01:13:14,446 and tell the truth about it, how he actually felt. 1459 01:13:14,470 --> 01:13:17,516 I wonder how many men 1460 01:13:17,540 --> 01:13:21,553 hide how they really feel about sex. 1461 01:13:21,577 --> 01:13:24,656 Or how many men would have the courage to say 1462 01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,292 "I want to do them all"? 1463 01:13:27,316 --> 01:13:30,295 Every time I drive by the club, even to this day, 1464 01:13:30,319 --> 01:13:32,220 I still feel the magic. 1465 01:13:36,058 --> 01:13:38,253 Look at it, the lights are still here. 1466 01:13:38,277 --> 01:13:40,422 Oh, there's disco lights over there. 1467 01:13:40,446 --> 01:13:42,380 The sprinkler system was here. 1468 01:13:44,267 --> 01:13:47,746 There's our fan, still up there to this day. 1469 01:13:47,770 --> 01:13:50,315 Whatever Frankie built, it's still there. 1470 01:13:50,339 --> 01:13:54,185 So... amazing. 1471 01:13:54,209 --> 01:13:56,287 One thing about getting older 1472 01:13:56,311 --> 01:13:58,222 is that you don't want to look back and say 1473 01:13:58,246 --> 01:14:00,959 "Wow, really I'm sorry I didn't do that. 1474 01:14:00,983 --> 01:14:02,978 I really am sorry I missed that. 1475 01:14:03,002 --> 01:14:05,414 I really am sorry I didn't take advantage of that." 1476 01:14:05,438 --> 01:14:08,417 I'm an old lady with no regrets, 1477 01:14:08,441 --> 01:14:09,718 because I'll tell you: 1478 01:14:09,742 --> 01:14:12,544 Those... that period was very special. 1479 01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:18,009 It was the same routine every night but different bodies. 1480 01:14:18,033 --> 01:14:19,668 Different sizes. 1481 01:14:21,771 --> 01:14:23,838 Tall, short... 1482 01:14:25,107 --> 01:14:27,085 It was, you know, a sight to see... 1483 01:14:27,109 --> 01:14:29,188 Every night. 1484 01:14:29,212 --> 01:14:31,807 Somehow whenever anybody 1485 01:14:31,831 --> 01:14:35,210 discusses Plato's Retreat, they do it with a smile on their face. 1486 01:14:35,234 --> 01:14:37,145 If anybody was there, they're happy. 1487 01:14:37,169 --> 01:14:39,915 If anybody wasn't there, they're only sorry 1488 01:14:39,939 --> 01:14:43,641 that they didn't get an opportunity to go there and see it. 1489 01:14:45,177 --> 01:14:47,756 It was very exciting to a lot of people. 1490 01:14:47,780 --> 01:14:50,258 And when we finally caught up with it, 1491 01:14:50,282 --> 01:14:52,883 we were amused by it as well. 1492 01:14:55,671 --> 01:14:57,849 I'm... I'm really glad I went. 1493 01:14:57,873 --> 01:15:00,585 I'm glad to have the experience of having gone. 1494 01:15:00,609 --> 01:15:03,455 Just as I'm glad that I got to the top 1495 01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:05,714 of the World Trade Center once. 1496 01:15:08,718 --> 01:15:11,947 Even to today people say things to me: 1497 01:15:11,971 --> 01:15:14,956 "I knew your father. I remember your father." 1498 01:15:17,309 --> 01:15:20,372 Okay, some people, they have no memories. 1499 01:15:20,396 --> 01:15:22,240 They had a boring normal... 1500 01:15:22,264 --> 01:15:25,877 Let's say everyday-straight kind of life. 1501 01:15:25,901 --> 01:15:29,581 I've led a different kind of life. I've had that life 1502 01:15:29,605 --> 01:15:31,272 and my life changed... 1503 01:15:32,858 --> 01:15:35,293 By going to Plato's... 1504 01:15:37,062 --> 01:15:39,308 by getting into open sex. 1505 01:15:39,332 --> 01:15:42,578 These are things that you never thought you would ever do in life. 1506 01:15:42,602 --> 01:15:44,480 You didn't even think about it. 1507 01:15:44,504 --> 01:15:47,349 So a lot of people, they don't have those memories. 1508 01:15:47,373 --> 01:15:51,443 I have those memories. I can see the faces in front of me now. 1509 01:16:29,782 --> 01:16:32,393 It was good for me. 1510 01:16:32,417 --> 01:16:34,429 It was good for me. 1511 01:16:34,453 --> 01:16:37,398 It was great for me. 1512 01:16:37,422 --> 01:16:39,217 Is Larry still around, by the way? 1513 01:16:39,241 --> 01:16:43,655 - Are you guys talking to Larry? - He passed away in '99. 1514 01:16:43,679 --> 01:16:45,790 - He passed away? - Yeah. 1515 01:16:45,814 --> 01:16:48,750 - He was only about 50. - 62. 1516 01:16:49,951 --> 01:16:51,218 Wow. 1517 01:17:03,664 --> 01:17:06,510 ♪ Oh, how happy ♪ 1518 01:17:06,534 --> 01:17:09,180 ♪ you have made me ♪ 1519 01:17:09,204 --> 01:17:11,882 ♪ oh, how happy ♪ 1520 01:17:11,906 --> 01:17:14,218 ♪ you have made me ♪ 1521 01:17:14,242 --> 01:17:17,088 ♪ I have kissed your lips ♪ 1522 01:17:17,112 --> 01:17:19,757 ♪ a thousand times ♪ 1523 01:17:19,781 --> 01:17:22,593 ♪ and more times than I can count ♪ 1524 01:17:22,617 --> 01:17:24,929 ♪ I have called you mine ♪ 1525 01:17:24,953 --> 01:17:26,063 ♪ you have stood... ♪ 1526 01:17:26,087 --> 01:17:28,165 I tried to hide the fact 1527 01:17:28,189 --> 01:17:30,500 That Larry Levenson was my brother. 1528 01:17:30,524 --> 01:17:32,536 After all, my name was Karen Posner. 1529 01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,372 It wasn't too difficult, I thought, to keep it a secret. 1530 01:17:35,396 --> 01:17:38,542 But of course everybody knew because of the car showing up at the house 1531 01:17:38,566 --> 01:17:42,079 and Larry marching into all of our backyard barbecues. 1532 01:17:42,103 --> 01:17:44,749 I saw people getting down 1533 01:17:44,773 --> 01:17:48,152 in various stages. Big deal. 1534 01:17:48,176 --> 01:17:50,837 What did you expect? Where do you expect babies come from? 1535 01:17:50,861 --> 01:17:54,074 I wouldn't just take my clothes off and just walk around like that. 1536 01:17:54,098 --> 01:17:56,766 You know? Have I done anything there? 1537 01:17:58,736 --> 01:18:02,266 I really can't talk about that... if I've ever done anything there. 1538 01:18:02,290 --> 01:18:05,886 What is the difference between parsley and pussy? 1539 01:18:05,910 --> 01:18:08,555 He says, "What is the difference?" I says, 1540 01:18:08,579 --> 01:18:10,613 "Well, who eats parsley?" 1541 01:18:12,950 --> 01:18:15,161 One of Larry's ideas 1542 01:18:15,185 --> 01:18:18,632 was that he seriously believed 1543 01:18:18,656 --> 01:18:22,436 that he could have sex with every single woman 1544 01:18:22,460 --> 01:18:25,729 in New York and I was going to help him do it. 1545 01:18:26,964 --> 01:18:29,310 What do you say to something like that? 1546 01:18:29,334 --> 01:18:30,777 We laugh. 1547 01:18:30,801 --> 01:18:34,314 That's what keeps a marriage going sometimes 1548 01:18:34,338 --> 01:18:36,116 is laughter. 1549 01:18:36,140 --> 01:18:38,251 I mean he makes me laugh, I make him laugh. 1550 01:18:38,275 --> 01:18:41,087 - And now we have a new life. - Uh uh uh! 1551 01:18:41,111 --> 01:18:42,723 Yeah, but now we got a new life. 1552 01:18:42,747 --> 01:18:44,691 - But uh uh uh. - No, home. 1553 01:18:44,715 --> 01:18:46,960 Oh yeah. Our poker life. 1554 01:18:46,984 --> 01:18:51,588 Now we can't wait to get back to Vegas in December. 1555 01:18:53,290 --> 01:18:54,468 Go ahead. What else? 1556 01:18:54,492 --> 01:18:56,020 ♪ ...Made me ♪ 1557 01:18:56,044 --> 01:18:58,522 ♪ you have made me ♪ 1558 01:18:58,546 --> 01:19:00,991 ♪ you have made me ♪ 1559 01:19:01,015 --> 01:19:03,350 ♪ you have made me. ♪ 1560 01:20:11,492 --> 01:20:12,492 Subtitles by LeapinLar 130171

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