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From 1968 to 2010,

the terrorist organization ETA murdered 852 people and wounded 2,661 others.

Source: Spanish Ministry of the Interior

ETA was founded in 1959, during Francisco Franco's dictatorship,

to fight for the independence of the Basque Country.

Following Franco's death in 1975, ETA became increasingly violent.

The organization committed more than 90% of its murders

after the transition to democracy.

The Spanish state as well as far-right and parapolice groups waged

an illicit war against ETA in which 73 people were killed.

Source: Basque government

Francisco Ruiz and Josu Urrutikoetxea do not know each other

and have only crossed paths once.

This is part of their story.

I moved to Euskadi

since I was… a child of the post-war period.

I moved there when I was three years old.

At 17, I qualified as a plumber.

And I lived there until I turned 28 or 29,

when I moved to Ciudad Real.

I lived there a long time.

I got married there.

My four daughters were born there.

And, to be perfectly honest…

I mean, I've always loved Euskadi.

And, well,

I remember that region fondly.

When I got out of the military,

three spots opened up for local police officers

where I lived, in Galdakao. There was a civil service entrance exam.

And it's not like I wanted to be a cop or…

It had never crossed my mind before.

But the fact is I thought I needed to put bread on the table

because, at the time, I had four daughters and we needed the money.

Francisco, what happened on February 9th, 1976?

On that day in '76,

I was on duty. I got to work at 6:00 a.m.

Apart from our regular responsibilities as local police officers,

we would protect the mayor.

He always left his house at 8:00 a.m. sharp.

I was with him that day.

Because of seniority, it was my turn

to wait for the mayor at his front door.

He'd then walk to his car,

which was about 550 yards away.

And, of course, he left at the same time every day

and always walked on the same side of the street.

Well, we were about 20 yards from his front door

when we ran into an ETA cell.

They came at us with handguns and machine guns,

and they opened fire on us.

I think the mayor was shot five or six times.

He died instantly, right then and there.

I was shot multiple times in the chest…

and in the stomach.

But I was able to react quickly and dove between two cars.

And, well, that saved my life.

When the terrorists started to run,

they fired at me with the machine gun again.

They hit me six more times below the waist.

But…

That didn't kill me. That, right there, didn't kill me.

I didn't lose consciousness.

Since I was Catholic at the time, I…

I was non-practicing but Catholic nonetheless. I prayed to the Virgin Mary…

asking her to keep me alive…

so I could raise my daughters.

That's when I lost consciousness. Later, they told me…

It was terrifying

because no one came to rescue us the whole time we were there.

And we were on the main street in town, by the way.

It was 8:00 a.m., when everybody was going to work.

They called my wife later, and she…

She assumed the worst.

She was speechless.

When they told her, she was speechless.

A police car went and picked her up

and brought her to the hospital.

I was already in the operating room.

The first thing they told her was that my chances were very slim

due to all my bullet wounds.

But I think my prayer… was answered.

She helped me out up there.

And we spent the next five months in there, Jordi.

Five months.

Five months in the hospital.

When I was discharged,

I left, but I was in a wheelchair.

And the first time I was out around town, I noticed

how people shunned me, Jordi.

They steered clear of me.

People that knew me would cross to the other side of the street.

By that time, people were already afraid, terrified, in the Basque Country.

Abertzales, nationalists, were afraid of being seen talking to terrorism victims.

And that was truly devastating.

It hurt as much as the attack.

When I saw how I was rejected by the society I had known

since I was three or six years old, when I moved to Galdakao…

I lived in that town. Everybody knew me.

I was ostracized since I was a victim…

That was really hard for me.

When my wife would go to the supermarket or butcher shop,

the butcher wouldn't pull any punches.

Even if the shop was full, he'd say,

"They should've killed that fascist years ago."

"And fuck that local cop for protecting him."

My wife would come home

with tears in her eyes.

So I had to make a decision. I spoke to my family,

and we decided to leave the Basque Country.

Like… I don't know.

Like lepers.

We had to leave.

Did you ever feel hatred

towards the people that attacked you and the mayor?

Did I ever feel hatred towards them? Of course, I did.

At the time, it was equal parts hatred and fear.

There was never any closure surrounding the attack.

It was impossible to identify multiple ETA terrorists who attacked you,

and others were granted amnesty in 1977.

We filmed a documentary

based on a conversation, an interview

with Josu Urrutikoetxea, historically a member of ETA.

Perhaps you've…

Yes, Josu Ternera.

We were surprised to hear

that he had new information about the day you were attacked.

And…

at the very least, you should know that happened.

Wow, this is the first time I've heard anything about it from an ETA terrorist.

Perhaps you'd like to see the footage. If you don't want to…

Of course, I want to.

A lot of time has passed,

and I'd like to learn something new about the day I was attacked.

Well, I'd be happy to show you.

Okay.

I know you don't like being called "Ternera."

But I've spoken to people who know you well,

former comrades, former ETA members. That's what they call you.

What's the story behind it?

We were bar hopping in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.

At one of our stops, someone, who will remain nameless, said,

"Jeez, you're acting like a ternera, a calf."

So what happened next?

Well, not long after that,

one of the people that was there was arrested

by the police in the Southern Basque Country.

That person was tortured and told the police,

"Yeah, at that bar on that day

I was with this person, that person, and the other guy."

"And some guy they call 'Ternera' was there." That's it.

"This guy?" They showed him a photo. He said, "Yup, him."

And from that point forward, in the…

in the international arrest warrants, that… nickname appeared.

- Josu Ternera. - Yes.

- Josu Ternera… - Josu Ternera…

Admiral Carrero Blanco, prime minister of Spain, has been assassinated.

He was attacked by terrorists.

ETA'S MILITARY ARM RESTRUCTURES AND MAKES URRUTIKOETXEA NUMBER TWO

"JOSU TERNERA" NOW TOP ETA LEADER, DIRECTLY CONTROLS MILITARY

ETA'S MOST POWERFUL LEADER EVER

José Antonio Urrutikoetxea has been arrested.

José Antonio Urrutikoetxea,

alias Josu Ternera, is considered to be ETA's number one.

NO EXTRADITIONS

FREE JOSU!

Today, French authorities handed over Josu Ternera, a top member of ETA,

to Spanish police.

He is suspected of leading ETA's international arm.

You sons of bitches!

Murderers!

Enough is enough!

Josu Ternera was released from prison today.

Long live ETA's military arm!

Obtaining a legislative seat is always better

than obtaining a handgun and using it.

That's always better.

As painful as it is, I think he has the right to do it.

Josu Ternera, tell your former comrades

to let us, the people, enact our own revolution,

our own changes at the polls.

The Batasuna member of Parliament

and ETA's former number one, Josu Ternera, is at large.

We do not know the whereabouts of Mr. Urrutikoetxea.

I have no information and no clue

if we'll learn where he is.

The Government will begin talks with ETA.

What was Josu Ternera's advantage? He knew the importance of Parliament.

ETA has decided to permanently disarm.

It's the end of the road according to a key figure, Josu Ternera.

"ETA was born from the people,

and now it dissolves back into the people."

These are the first images of Josu Ternera in custody after 17 years on the run.

Josu Ternera has been arrested. He was ETA's last top member.

…congratulate you on arresting José Antonio Urrutikoetxea Bengoetxea,

Josu Ternera.

Today, the Cabinet has requested that France extradite

the ETA member Josu Ternera.

A French judge acquitted the ETA member Josu Ternera

of the charge of membership in ETA between 2011 and 2013.

He has another trial pending in France

and will then be extradited to Spain to stand trial for the attack

on the Civil Guard barracks in Zaragoza

and for financing ETA through pubs run by sympathizers.

FACE TO FACE WITH ETA: CONVERSATIONS WITH A TERRORIST

"I was, am, and will be a member of ETA, and I'm proud of it."

- You said that in a trial in Paris. - Yes.

I certainly was a member of ETA.

And are you proud of that?

I was a member of ETA.

The historical context of that statement made in 1990

was entirely different from both the context in which I joined ETA

and the present.

I do not deny at all that I made that statement.

You had a… long career in ETA,

one of the longest within the terrorist organization ETA.

You joined soon after it was founded.

You were a major figure in almost all of its key moments.

You spent 12 years in prison.

More than 20 years in hiding.

And you announced the end of ETA in 2018.

That's a total of almost 50 years.

Has ETA been your life?

ETA is part of my life. That's undeniable.

As you just said.

I willingly joined ETA

at the age of 17.

I'm now over 71 years old.

Therefore, in one way or another,

clearly, there is a relationship.

However, I must clarify

ETA no longer exists.

What's your goal here?

Well, I hope to…

Up until now, other people have spoken for me.

Not only have they spoken. They've written books.

And, for different reasons,

I've had few opportunities to speak on my behalf.

We're in France. I don't know if I can say where we are.

I don't care, but we're not in France.

With all due respect,

you may think, and you clearly do,

that we're in France. Fine.

But I don't think we're in France.

People call it the French Basque Country,

but I consider it Euskal Herria, therefore the Northern Basque Country.

So, let's continue…

Let's continue this conversation with that in mind.

- I'll respect… the language you use. - Okay.

I do consider us to be in France. At least from a legal standpoint, we are.

In Saint-Jean-de-Luz.

For many people in Spain,

your name is synonymous with "terrorism"

as well as "brutality" and "cruelty."

Yet, at the same time, everyone involved in the peace process

that resulted in the end of the terrorist organization ETA,

including those on the government side,

see you as having played a key role in putting an end to that violence.

And?

How do you reconcile those two facets you have?

I'm not alone in that sense. However, my situation has been turned into…

a trophy.

And that's how they created a narrative with winners and losers.

They believe there is only one narrative,

and my personage is one of the bad guys in it.

They've taken my personage

and removed all human aspects. They've dehumanized my personage.

They talk about me like I'm the Devil.

Or they say we're bloodthirsty.

I'm just a regular person.

I've had and maintain strong beliefs.

Political, social, and cultural ones.

I have a family, like everyone else.

It's true that I was a member of ETA.

It's true that I was tried and convicted of that

in the French state but not in the Spanish state.

And it's true that the majority of my career in ETA… was devoted to

paving the way for conflict resolution, the subsequent end of the conflict,

and moving forward, moving on via political negotiation.

The Government will begin talks with ETA

and will not waver in its stance

that political matters shall only be resolved

by those who legitimately represent

the will

of the people.

Let's start at the end. The year is 2005.

Zapatero's socialist government initiated talks to try to end the violence,

and you were in charge of negotiating on behalf of ETA.

Were you the leader of ETA at the time?

Not at all.

My job was strictly confined to…

During those years, from 2002 to 2006,

my job was about building relationships and steering things towards,

trying to steer things towards a negotiation to end the conflict.

Despite not being ETA's leader, you negotiated on behalf of ETA.

- Yes. - Your counterpart was Jesús Eguiguren.

At the time, he was president of the Socialist Party of Euskadi.

Yes, that's right.

I was surprised

that the personage of Josu Urrutikoetxea, Josu Ternera, has barely… received

any of the credit,

when compared to other participants in that negotiation.

You actively participated, so it's odd that you haven't been given more--

Please… do not call me…

You want to call me Josu Urrutikoetxea? Fine. But not Josu Ternera because I…

That's what I've been doing thus far.

I said "Ternera" just now simply because that's what other people were calling you.

- That won't be the case here. - No, right…

Well, I don't know.

I was not in pro-independence left structures.

At the time, they must have decided

what they thought was best and went with it.

During your negotiations in June 2005,

there was an ETA attack, and there were no victims.

- It was at La Peineta in Madrid. - Yes.

How did you all feel? What did you say?

I found it troubling, obviously.

What do you mean, "I found it troubling?"

Well, that affects you.

Well, an operation… If it hadn't happened, that would've been better.

Because perhaps that would've…

laid better groundwork for the agreement, or whatever.

Also, during the first phase of those negotiations,

there was a jihadist attack on July 7th in London.

As a result, more than 50 people died in the British capital.

What was that like for you?

Well, I thought…

that sort of… violent "operation," if you could call it that,

that it had no raison d'être.

But I won't get into…

I can't fathom the logic of jihadist organizations.

I don't share their opinion,

which is fundamentally based on

their idea that any man or woman that has voted for a given government,

whether it's in Paris or London,

is an equal participant in and is equally responsible for

what British administrations have done in Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, or Pakistan.

That's their opinion. I don't agree with it.

But did you see those attacks and think, "What an absolute calamity"?

I'll repeat what I've already said.

I didn't see the rationale at all.

I couldn't fathom it.

No matter how much they try to justify,

I'm referring to Islamists,

that any citizen is a target,

I think that is absurd.

But that's what Islamists think.

Allow me to ask a question. What's the difference between

killing for one's god and killing for one's homeland?

Killing…

In my opinion…

I don't think you or anyone else…

has ever heard me say killing is okay.

Never.

My family was poor, working-class.

Both my father and mother came from farming families.

My family was what you'd call Roman Catholic.

And from a young age, basically, I was forced

to do the classic thing, Sunday mass…

They imposed it upon me because they were religious.

And they believed families had to be a certain way.

And were you a believer?

At that age, who can say they were a believer?

You were practically forced to repeat stuff.

I believe in things, just not God.

Human beings have believed in things since the very beginning.

Beliefs are one thing, and religion is another.

- What do you believe in? - I believe in my surroundings.

In what I see, in nature.

In human beings.

You must've learned the Ten Commandments.

I had to. We had Religion class in school.

Did you break many of the commandments by being in ETA?

"By being in ETA"?

I don't see the connection. I'm not religious,

so I'm not breaking rules by being in ETA. I don't believe in that stuff.

The seventh one is "Thou shalt not steal."

If you hadn't just told me, I wouldn't have known that.

- So? - Did you fulfill it or not?

How is that related? I didn't fulfill it. I obviously didn't fulfill it.

- And the fifth? "Thou shalt not kill"? - I fulfilled it.

How'd you find ETA?

ETA…

During the historical period in which it was born, the late '50s,

there was the occasional newspaper article given how the news was back then.

So I learned about it that way and from conversations at home.

Would your family say,

"We heard that so-and-so joined ETA" or…?

Yes, of course.

You'd get that news at home.

So I saw that the only way,

the only effective way,

to take on the system that was oppressing and suffocating us

was this new thing, ETA.

I was 17 years old

when one of my closest friends said,

"Look, I'm in ETA. Do you want to join ETA?"

And I accepted.

CIVIL GUARD - POLICE CHECKPOINT

CIVIL GUARD TRAFFIC OFFICER SHOT TO DEATH

ONE ASSAILANT WAS KILLED BY THE CIVIL GUARD

You joined ETA in 1968.

Soon after, ETA claimed its first victim, the Civil Guard officer José Pardines.

At the time, did you think

that killing was crossing the line?

No, because…

A very large part of the Basque people, Basque men and women, thought

that in order to go up against the oppressive system,

we had to use all means. So…

- Well… - Including violence.

All types of vio… All means.

It's not like that was just ETA's stance

or just my stance. Very many people felt that way.

Soon after the death of the Civil Guard officer Pardines,

the first member of ETA died,

Txabi Etxebarrieta. He had perpetrated the death of Pardines.

After seeing what happened to a fellow ETA member,

were you willing to die for your homeland?

When you join ETA, you know the consequences,

the fact that you may die.

For your homeland.

For a set of ideas, of course.

Did you receive military training in ETA?

Yes.

What did it include?

At the time, not much.

Not much because, at the time,

and I'm referring to the same period, ETA operated on four fronts.

They were the political, military, workers, and cultural fronts.

We didn't need military training

because we weren't in the military front.

But there was minimal training,

which included making Molotov cocktails,

basic explosives training,

and learning how handguns work and how to use them.

Did you learn how to shoot?

If you could call it that.

Since we were in the cultural front at the time, learning how to shoot meant

you learned how the handgun worked and fired one or two shots. That was it.

When did they give you your first gun?

The first gun I touched wasn't given to me.

When I touched a gun for the first time, I must've been…

eighteen or nineteen years old.

I was learning how it worked.

Then, I got my first gun in…

It must've been '71. And they didn't give me my first gun.

I mean, when I…

When I escaped and went into exile in the Northern Basque Country, Iparralde,

I was in the political front.

And at that time,

the only armed ETA members were in the military front.

So, I knew the risks

of crossing the border secretly, illegally, to do my political work,

I repeat, "political work," in the Southern Basque Country,

and I bought a handgun from a smuggler.

He was a Basque smuggler.

The handgun was made in Bayonne. It was a MAB.

- MAP? - MAB. M-A-B.

Manufacture d'armes de Bayonne.

It was a 7.65 millimeter handgun, and I paid 500 francs for it,

out of my own pocket.

Because the organization's weapons

were exclusively reserved for the members of the military front.

How many times did you have to use that gun?

- In my life? - Yes.

Well, a few times.

But when I used it,

it was in self-defense.

Did you ever join a cell?

Yes.

Which one?

- A cell. - But more than one?

No.

Well…

I mean, more than one but at different times.

- What was your cell's name? - It didn't have one.

Some cells had names or were given one later.

Where were they located?

One of them was practically mobile,

and another one was in Vizcaya.

What year was this?

The '70s.

Were you ever involved in an attack in which people died?

Yes.

Can you tell us which one?

Yes, I can tell you.

Indirectly, in…

Indirectly, not in the cell. But I was part of the group

for Carrero Blanco and…

And for another one, the mayor of Galdakao.

ETA murdered him?

ETA killed him and claimed responsibility, obviously.

MAYOR OF GALDAKAO MURDERED WHEN HE LEFT HIS HOUSE YESTERDAY MORNING

Your involvement in the attack on Carrero Blanco was common knowledge.

But we had no idea you were involved

in the murder of the mayor of Galdakao.

What role did you play in that cell?

The role I had to play.

Which was?

Whatever was needed.

You're in a cell and complete an assignment that leads to

a person being killed.

- Were you assigned as the shooter? - No.

Would you have shot if asked to?

Well, at the time, yes.

I think the attack on the mayor of Galdakao was in 1976.

Franco had already died.

I don't know exactly, but, yes. Well, I don't know exactly…

Anyway, the system, the fascist system

hadn't taken even the smallest step toward what would be known soon after as…

"reform."

So they were informed…

ETA released not one, but various statements

in which they said that if people didn't resign,

they would be considered as complicit in the system.

That was the threat that--

It wasn't a threat. It was an analysis of the political situation.

They were collaborating in the repression of the Basque people,

insofar as they represented institutions that had not been elected.

That seems like a threat to me.

You can see it however you want,

but that's what it was.

And they were all aware of it.

To the point that many of them had bodyguards.

- They had bodyguards by then? - Yes.

- Did the Galdakao mayor have bodyguards? - Yes.

You've acknowledged you participated in another lethal attack,

the murder of the prime minister of the Francoist government,

Luis Carrero Blanco, in 1973.

OGRO, GILLO PONTECORVO, 1979

Ask if anything has happened to the prime minister.

The officers in the other car have been injured,

and we are trying to locate the prime minister's car.

It looks like the car on the roof is the prime minister's.

It looks like he's dead.

One year earlier, in January 1972,

three tons of explosives were stolen from a supply depot in Hernani.

They were then used in this attack.

- Did you participate in that robbery? - Yes.

Were you later involved in the attack on Luis Carrero Blanco?

Not directly,

because I wasn't in what they call the "Txikia Cell."

But, yes, in some phases of the preparation of…

the Carrero Blanco operation.

Specifically…?

I just said one.

- The robbery? - Obviously.

Any others?

Technical aspects, transporting materials or…

Technical aspects.

But that wasn't the original plan.

That operation…

Before Carrero Blanco was appointed prime minister,

the organization planned to kidnap him.

In exchange for his freedom, they were going to ask

for the release of political prisoners, men and women.

But what happened?

When it was all set,

all the intel had been checked and double-checked,

and the logistics were set…

Surprise.

Carrero Blanco was appointed prime minister.

That meant he had more security

and that we had to adapt…

The group that was tasked with the operation…

with kidnapping him, had to change its plans.

In the early '70s, you were already in the French Basque Country,

and that was where

the far-right Spanish Basque Battalion tried to kill you.

I think it was in June 1975.

- Do you remember what happened? - Yes.

I remember that day perfectly.

My wife at the time was in the kitchen.

I was on my knees,

writing on a bed, instead of at a desk.

My eldest son was a little more than a year old,

and he was in the bed next to me.

And my daughter was a newborn.

She was in the room that had a view of where my car was parked.

I immediately went to the room closest to the explosion,

which is where she was in her crib.

She was covered in glass.

Well, she was lucky because she didn't…

Well, her eardrums were ruptured,

but that was the worst of it.

That's pretty bad on its own.

She survived the blast because the bed was taller than her crib.

So the glass… The explosion hit…

We went outside because there was a fire by the entrance.

We went out a different door,

and I saw that the car was on fire and…

completely destroyed. There was a body next to it.

Whose body?

It was one of the members of the mercenary group

that had put the bomb on my car.

He had put the bomb there, intending for it to explode

when I would get in the car with my family the next day.

How did you feel, knowing one of your kids could've died in that attack?

We all could've died.

How did I feel? Well…

They are victims… In that case, they would've been…

They are. They would've been and they are victims, obviously,

of an attack by the Spanish state.

Did you then have any moral qualms

about the bombs that ETA placed

to target people that were in the same situation as your family?

Obviously, I mean…

Armed conflict…

in my opinion,

and in that of ETA…

Armed conflict was never an end in itself.

Ever.

But those decades of armed conflict

caused countless victims on both sides.

Irreversible victims.

Irreversible outcomes, I mean.

And I think

those victims…

must be acknowledged.

And the confrontation, the conflict…

has led us…

to practically forget,

almost always, the ethical side of things.

That aspect has been pushed aside to an extent by the adverse consequences

of the crescendoing spiral of violence brought on by both sides.

And that violent spiral

has led all of us,

both men and women,

on both sides

to become desensitized to the suffering of others.

To the pain of others.

- Is that what happened to you? - Obviously.

But perhaps I realized that a posteriori.

Because, at the time, when you're deep in the violence,

to some extent you are unable

to move towards…

an awareness of your enemy's suffering.

And I'm referring to both sides.

There was no feeling of empathy towards the other side's suffering.

No one put themselves

in the other side's shoes to see how they suffered.

That happened on both sides.

Did you ever celebrate someone's death?

Absolutely not… Never.

Some ETA members have admitted to celebrating attacks.

- Did you ever celebrate an ETA attack? - No.

The only thing I've ever celebrated…

I'm not sure about Carrero Blanco. Maybe, I don't know.

…was the death of Franco.

My fellow Spaniards,

Franco… has died.

Clearly, Franco's death didn't lead ETA to abandon its goals.

Quite the opposite in fact, if we take a look at the numbers.

Eighty dead in 1979.

Ninety-eight dead in 1980.

Almost two deaths per week.

What was ETA trying to achieve with all those murders?

To use your words, at that time ETA "was trying…"

to get

the Spanish government

to sit down and talk, and, in turn, that dialogue would lead to

a negotiated solution to the problem.

Use corpses as leverage, to force the Government to negotiate.

The goal obviously was to destabilize the Government

so that the Government could analyze the situation and say,

"Well, in order to avoid more deaths,

let's see what these people who are causing these deaths really want."

"What do they want? Let's talk to them."

Didn't you find it troubling

the organization you belonged to killed 98 people in one year?

It's not about being "troubled."

I used the same language that you used regarding the La Peineta attack.

I've always thought that those deaths could've been avoided.

Were you a friend of Yoyes's?

I wouldn't say we were friends, but, yes, I knew her.

María Dolores González Katarain, Yoyes,

was the first woman to be a top member of ETA.

She cut ties with the organization in 1979

and went into exile in Mexico.

According to a friend,

you were the person that saw her off when she left for Mexico. Is that true?

Yes, I was there with other people too. Yes, I went with her. That's true.

But not just that.

I saw Yoyes in Mexico.

When was that?

I don't remember when exactly, but it was when she was in Mexico.

- She was already exiled in Mexico. - Yes.

- No longer in the organization. - Yes.

You knew Yoyes had left the organization.

- But you went to Mexico and saw her. - That's exactly right.

We had lunch, dinner, spent time… Yes.

ETA murdered Yoyes

on September 10th, 1986

in her town's main square. She was with her son.

She was 32 years old.

YOYES TRAITOR

YOYES SNITCH

How did you feel when ETA killed Yoyes?

It was different… It's… I don't know.

It's very hard to express my feelings at the time.

It was very tough.

I…

It tore me up inside and still does

because, as I said,

I knew her, and we had a relationship to an extent.

But at the time,

ETA, probably ETA's leadership,

determined…

that the steps that Yoyes had taken to get in touch with

people at the Ministry of the Interior…

Obviously, back then, "agreeing on" steps to some extent with the enemy meant

accepting a policy of rehabilitation, division,

that was put in place by Felipe González's administration.

Was crossing that line and contacting the Ministry of the Interior

why Yoyes was murdered?

It's clear that ETA found it necessary to cut out

the sort of cancer that could've resulted from that.

Once a person has…

I am speaking from a qualitative standpoint… That was key.

- Were you involved in that decision? - No.

I want to read to you from Yoyes's personal diary.

"I, María Dolores González Katarain, state that ETA threatened me

because they learned that I intended to return from exile

to live with my family in Southern Euskadi."

"It is unacceptable for an organization that claims to be revolutionary

to use Stalinist or fascist tactics

against former members."

As Yoyes wrote,

did ETA use fascist tactics to murder her?

I don't consider them to be fascist. They're the result of political analysis.

Have you ever had the chance to…?

Have you ever met anyone from Yoyes's family?

No.

If you could say something to them, what would you say?

First, my deepest sympathy.

In 1988, Yoyes's sister said

ETA had sentenced her to death because she didn't think like them.

As much as her death pains me,

I don't agree with that because…

I've never thought that ETA killed people because they didn't share their beliefs.

Instead, they killed her because, one way or another,

she collaborated with repressive ideas or in the repression

of the pro-independence left.

You think there's a political justification for this murder.

Killing…

is wrong.

Neither her death nor any others would've happened

if, when ETA voiced the demands

of a large portion of the Basque people, they had not fallen on deaf ears.

Instead, there was just more repression.

Allow me to highlight something.

Speaking of "a large portion of the Basque Country,"

according to the results of successive elections

where, in one way or another, the Basque pro-independence left ran

via their most famous party, which was Herri Batasuna,

they didn't receive more than 15% or 16% of the votes.

Meaning, it wasn't actually "a large portion."

It was a large portion. I'll say it again.

When you talk about "the Basque people,"

sometimes it might make sense to say, "part of the Basque people."

Yes, because in that sense… One should speak in geographic terms too.

Not just in terms of political preferences

but also geographically.

And, in terms of percentages, it's clear--

That's what I mean.

…at the polls, the majority of the Basque people never supported,

en masse, ETA's thesis.

Having said that, was Yoyes's murder a mistake?

I think that at the time,

I, as a member of the organization,

respected the organization's decision,

which was made for political reasons. That's it.

Do you know how to make a car bomb?

No.

No.

In just two years, 1986 and 1987,

four car bombs killed 49 people.

Ten of them were children.

- Were you a leader of ETA at the time? - No.

- Not in the political arm or military arm? - I was… No.

I was part of the international arm.

Wasn't that part of the leadership?

No.

- Not even the political leadership? - No.

The international arm was entirely separate from the rest.

Who did you report to? In which…?

Well, to people who were part of ETA's leadership.

Did you have any moral qualms

about the fact that this tactic could kill many people indiscriminately?

I think nobody knew beforehand people would be killed indiscriminately.

Who didn't know?

When you change tactics from one day to the next, nobody knows

if people will be killed indiscriminately.

- It became clear very quickly… - Yes…

Yes, exactly.

I don't know if it was the first car bomb or the second,

but there were already deaths that had nothing to do with ETA's targets.

And I'd prefer not to categorize victims, but ETA did.

No, it's disgusting…

If anyone categorized… victims,

it was the State.

For example…

ETA didn't?

Categorize victims? Never.

They avoided causing more victims but never categorized them.

I remember an attack on…

I don't think Aznar was the prime minister yet.

Someone died. I don't know if it was Portugal… Someone died.

Later on, that person wasn't mentioned in any critiques of that attack.

They were mentioned as dead, but they weren't important.

The important one… They were already categorizing people.

They made Aznar the important one.

You're saying someone died in an attack on Aznar,

and no one talked about them.

I mean, the categorization wasn't made by the pro-independence left.

But it obviously happened.

Do you remember what happened on June 19th, 1987?

The 19th…?

No. June 19th, 1987?

Well, no. I don't.

That year… no.

A lot of stuff happened that year. Tons of stuff.

But I don't remember that exact date.

- Hipercor. - Well, of course.

- Hello? - Yes?

- Good afternoon. - Good afternoon.

I'm calling on behalf of ETA.

JUNE 19TH

The Hipercor on Meridiana Ave. will explode at 3:30 p.m.

People should definitely leave the parking garage.

- 3:30 p.m.? - 3:40 p.m.

Everyone should leave, especially from the garage. But no cars.

Long live Euskadi.

I was surprised you didn't remember what happened that day.

- No, why would I? - Since it was so important.

Right, but I don't…

I'll tell you I do remember other days that year.

So…

There was, I believe,

the largest roundup in the French state since the Vél d'Hiv Roundup

in Paris in 1944.

That I do remember.

Either way…

There were so many dates… However, as you said,

this one is important. That's true. You're right,

due to the consequences of that day and the way it happened.

So I could have…

I could have remembered it.

What did you think when you saw that ETA killed 21 people,

four of which were children,

at a supermarket in a working-class area of Barcelona?

What did I think? Well…

I thought about the consequences…

of the organization's mistake.

Was Hipercor a mistake?

I think so.

But I consider it a mistake…

because…

ETA… trusted…

a Government, a State,

whose job was to protect its citizens.

And even though… two warnings to evacuate were given,

they didn't.

In fact, the State was also found guilty of police negligence.

Protecting society is their job,

especially…

if they receive two warnings about a bomb in a supermarket,

in which there were hundreds of people, hundreds of individuals.

Let me get this straight. Did ETA make a mistake or not?

Come on, I already said it was a mistake, insofar as ETA's assessment.

That's how they get you. That's how the Government tricks you.

You think that no matter what you do…

Because probably up until that point…

Up until that point, whenever ETA warned of a bomb,

the… corresponding authorities went and evacuated people.

"If that's how it works, let's keep doing it."

So that was the miscalculation.

It was a huge mistake that had irreparable consequences

and affected working-class people.

- That's a fact. - But that's why?

Just because the police didn't evacuate people?

Because killing 21 people wasn't ETA's goal.

That was a consequence of the police not evacuating.

I mean, when one puts a car bomb in a supermarket parking garage,

it may go off with people around.

That right there is a mistake. That's the mistake,

analyzing the potential consequences of a place with hundreds of people.

And on top of that, you add the fact that you trust

a State that doesn't do its job.

You're saying that ETA only meant to cause property damage in the attack.

Exactly.

And that's what they said when they claimed responsibility.

Apart from the explosives and shrapnel in the Hipercor car bomb,

there were soap flakes,

which allowed the fire to spread as far as possible.

That's why the victims, some of them, were burned alive.

When one builds a car bomb like that,

they're doing it for a reason, not just…

to cause property damage.

You're taking this a bit too far, and I'll tell you why.

Committing terrorism is the easiest thing in the world to do.

I don't believe, at all, that ETA's goal was committing terrorism.

Terrorism is what we saw in London, Paris…

And most recently in 2004 in Madrid.

So ETA's goal,

which has been stated time and time again,

never was to cause victims.

It was to cause damage.

And if the store caught fire, then that meant even more damage.

When we were discussing jihadist terrorism,

you said it "had no raison d'être"

and, furthermore, that you thought it was "absurd"

that any citizen could become a target.

Didn't ETA do the same thing at Hipercor?

Come on…

Not at all.

The reason behind what ETA did…

ETA's goal was clear.

It was to cause property damage.

There is no way…

There is no way that their goal was…

And comparing it to jihadist terrorism is a bit of a stretch.

No matter where jihadists strike, whether that's Madrid, London, or Syria,

they claim responsibility for everything,

and they say… they meant all of it.

They would've been thrilled

if 1,400 people had died in Madrid, not just 400.

Neither in Hipercor nor any other instance in ETA's history,

did the organization seek to kill people, as you say, "indiscriminately."

- Never. - But they have.

Obviously, they have.

Here we go again. ETA said it was a mistake.

- How'd you feel on the days followi--? - Terrible.

Terrible.

If you were talking to one of the Hipercor victims now,

what would you say?

Well…

I'd tell them that I feel for them, that I feel for them deeply.

But we'd be going back

to the question of whether whatever I say,

with as much empathy as possible, would help that person. No, it wouldn't.

It happened in the past.

Will they feel less pain if I say…?

Plus, they'll say, "You don't mean it."

And let me tell you something else.

If I were in their shoes, I'd probably do the same thing.

On December 11th, 1987,

ETA planted a car bomb

in a family barracks of the Civil Guard in Zaragoza.

Eleven people were killed. Six of them were children.

This was six months after Hipercor.

You called the Hipercor attack a mistake.

Was the Zaragoza attack a mistake?

I wouldn't examine it from that perspective at all.

If we turn to print news archives…

and look at ETA's statements and messages

from well before the attack,

we'd see that they said time and time again

that as of a certain date, which I don't remember,

not only Civil Guard officers, police, and soldiers would be targets

but also family barracks.

And that's why

the Civil Guard was asked to remove families from the family barracks.

That's public knowledge.

But the Civil Guard didn't listen,

and they hunkered down in their bunkers.

So ETA decided to act accordingly,

after conducting their political analysis

in which they "stated," for lack of a better term,

that family barracks would become targets.

So, that was a consequence of ETA's decision.

DECEMBER 11TH

Having said that,

do you have any qualms about the attack on the family barracks in Zaragoza?

The qualms I have are, on the one hand, the fact that victims obviously were

women… Above all, there were children.

That was the unfortunate, irreparable result

of the consequences of that attack.

I obviously was deeply affected by it,

by the fact that those victims were entirely unrelated

to the symbolism of the Civil Guard barracks.

But they planted a car bomb next to a Civil Guard barracks,

at night,

knowing that people were asleep inside,

including the families of Civil Guard officers

that were sleeping there with them. Children, husbands, wives…

They must've known what was going to happen.

I can't speak to the analysis of those who approved and conducted the operation.

But, well… They probably knew.

Who knows to what extent? Maybe they didn't know.

How could one think otherwise while planting a car bomb full of--?

I can't get inside the heads of the people

that conducted… that operation.

I can't tell you what was going through their heads.

What was going through yours when you saw the results of that atta--?

It was painful.

It was painful, and that shouldn't have happened.

Regarding the Zaragoza attack,

you're telling me that ETA had already announced

that family members should leave barracks

and that only Civil Guard officers should sleep in them.

Therefore, since that didn't happen, the result was what it was.

And you're telling me that, with respect to Hipercor,

the fact that the police didn't evacuate the garage also sort of meant,

"Well, shit. If they don't evacuate, what choice do we have?"

Isn't that cynical?

I think you're taking things out of context

and framing facts in a way that benefits you.

In my opinion, there clearly was a mistake in what happened with Hipercor. There was.

You'll say, "The consequences were…" I agree, horrible and irreparable.

In response to your question about the Zaragoza barracks,

I contextualized the situation at the time.

And the consequences were grave, irreversible, and painful.

So I'm not being cynical in the slightest.

There's no doubt I was deeply affected

by the fact that those victims were children.

What if they had been Civil Guard officers?

Well, the Civil Guard officers knew what their job was.

Wasn't their motto "Give everything for the homeland"?

If they were staying in that barracks or any other one,

especially if it was near the Basque Country

and housed groups…

like special task forces that repressed the Basque Country,

then they knew what to expect.

That was their job. You said…

Rather, I told you

that whenever ETA members

underwent whatever… or were repressed

or killed in a confrontation,

they weren't victims at all.

They volunteered, and so did the Civil Guard officers.

I mean, they weren't volunteers. They chose that career.

Earlier, you said categorizing victims was disgusting.

- Isn't that what you're doing now? - Not at all.

- So it's not as disgusting as you said? - I'm not doing that.

I'm not categorizing victims at all.

You're saying that if some victims are Civil Guard officers

or members of Spain's law enforcement…

They were ETA's targets at the time.

The fact they were targets is entirely separate…

I'm not categorizing victims at all.

Yes, you are. You're saying you felt bad when they were kids.

But the Civil Guard was defending their homeland, so they could die for it.

Yes, but I'm not categorizing victims at all. In my opinion--

That's a categorization, Mr. Urrutikoetxea.

That's not how I see it.

As you're well aware, the Spanish courts want to extradite and try you for this.

And, in fact, the French courts are willing to grant that.

You are accused

of being a leader of ETA at the time… and, therefore, of ordering that attack.

Mr. Urrutikoetxea, did you order the Zaragoza attack?

Absolutely not.

That's number one. Number two, I wasn't part of ETA's leadership.

There are Civil Guard reports that point to you

as ETA's political leader at the time.

There were also statements from your comrades, like Elena Beloki.

In a sworn statement, she named you

as a member of ETA's leadership in 1987.

That is one of the factors that led the Civil Guard to…

That's not literally what her statement said.

- What did it say? - It said it was possible.

But it wasn't an affirmation.

That was the case with everyone that accused me,

whether it was Soares Gamboa or anyone else.

They said the same thing.

There's no proof whatsoever, anywhere.

MAY 29TH

In 1991, ETA attacked

another Civil Guard family barracks.

This time, in Vic.

Ten people were killed, and half of them were children.

The perpetrators of that attack,

the terrorists that pushed the car bomb,

they sent it down a ramp at the family barracks in Vic.

At the bottom, you could see kids playing in the courtyard.

Despite that fact, they decided to push the car.

I don't know exactly… If you say that's what happened…

- That is what eyewitnesses said. - Yes, but I don't know…

If that's what you say, then that's what happened.

And what do you think about that?

Well, if that person pushed the car even though they saw kids there,

then I think an erroneous stance was taken by the people

that were going to conduct or that were conducting the operation.

I ask because, with respect to the Zaragoza attack, you said

the car bomb was placed at night

and that they weren't able to calculate the consequences.

I disagreed with you then, but in this case

the consequences were right at the bottom of the ramp.

I already addressed this.

José Antonio Urrutikoetxea, alias Josu Ternera,

was arrested by intelligence services while he was on his motorcycle.

Josu Ternera is considered to be ETA's number one.

He was involved in the death of Admiral Carrero Blanco

and had narrowly evaded French police

in Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle.

Following your arrest in 1989,

you spent 11 years in prison.

First, you did time in France. What were you convicted of?

I was arrested in '89 in Bayonne,

and they charged me with conspiracy

to commit terrorist acts, or something like that.

Perhaps that's not the literal translation,

but that's the crime I was tried for.

Today, French authorities handed over Josu Ternera, a top member of ETA,

to Spanish police at the border crossing near La Junquera.

He is suspected of leading ETA's international arm

and of being involved in the extortion of Basque business owners.

After serving seven years in France,

you were extradited to Spain in 1996

and sent to the Alcalá Meco prison.

You spent four more years in prison, in preventive detention in this case,

while you were being investigated for other crimes.

That same year, 1996, ETA had kidnapped

the corrections officer Ortega Lara.

I'd like to know what the corrections officers were like

when you arrived at Alcalá Meco

at the time that Ortega Lara was being held captive.

In general, they were very cold, very…

Excuse me. Very disdainful. However, allow me to clarify

that they had the same attitude after the Ortega Lara thing.

It wasn't only because… That's just how it was.

- They saw us as the enemy. - ETA clearly saw them the same way too.

- That's how ETA saw the prison guards. - Yes, at that time.

Kidnapping Ortega Lara was evidence of that.

He was held captive for 532 days in inhumane conditions, in a hole.

JULY 1ST

What did you think when you saw that iconic image?

That of Ortega Lara

after he suffered a kidnapping that was so…

What did I think? That must've been very hard for him.

If you've ever been in solitary confinement

like my comrades, both men and women,

for 20 years or more, not 539 days,

then you can imagine

it must be very hard to be stuck somewhere like that.

Would Ortega Lara have died if they hadn't found him?

I don't know.

Considering ETA's demands,

the transfer of imprisoned ETA members to Basque prisons…

I don't know. There were demands. There were facts…

I… In my opinion…

I think that ETA perhaps…

As you said, their goal was to exchange him for prisoners.

Perhaps they would've waited for that or for steps to be taken in that direction

and then let him go.

Well, we therefore think

that the police as well as many politicians

will praise the use of repression.

We'd like to give them some advice.

Be careful about getting drunk off repression

because there's the inevitable hangover.

Just days after Ortega Lara was freed, very few days after that in fact,

and a few days after that statement from the Herri Batasuna spokesman,

ETA kidnapped an Ermua town councilor from the Popular Party,

Miguel Ángel Blanco.

Was that the hangover?

That's your interpretation of it.

What about yours?

Of that? I don't think so. I don't know.

I can't get inside the heads of the people that decided

to kidnap Miguel Ángel Blanco.

Anyway, that wouldn't have made any sense.

- Was that ETA's revenge? - I don't think so.

I don't think so because, from what I've seen…

I've always thought, and from what I've seen,

that revenge is an attitude

that serves no purpose, none whatsoever, in helping us move forward

in our project to rebuild Euskal Herria.

None whatsoever.

And…

Besides, hate and revenge blind you

and don't allow you to analyze things correctly.

What did you think when you heard about the kidnapping of Miguel Ángel Blanco?

I thought that…

I didn't really understand it. That's the truth.

I didn't really understand what…

the goal of that operation was.

That's all. I didn't get it. I had no information. I didn't get it.

JULY 11TH

ETA KIDNAPS A TOWN COUNCILOR AND THREATENS TO MURDER HIM TOMORROW

DEADLINE SET AT 4:00 P.M.

ETA gave the Government 48 hours

to transfer prisoners to Euskadi.

Otherwise, they were going to execute Miguel Ángel Blanco.

At the time, you were an imprisoned ETA member.

How did you feel about that extortion?

I'll say it again. Due to the information I had at the time,

which was very limited, I thought…

I don't know. It didn't make sense. I couldn't see the reasoning.

During those 48 hours, did you express your disagreement with what ETA had done?

It wasn't about doing that publicly. Why would I have done that publicly?

My disagreement with what happened or my critiques

or my point of view…

I presented that constructively to whomever needed to hear it.

Did you when you had the chance?

Of course, I did.

JULY 12TH

Over those few days, hundreds of thousands of people,

not just in the rest of Spain but also in the Basque Country this time,

took to the streets, demanding that ETA spare Miguel Ángel Blanco.

Why didn't ETA listen?

I think ETA ignored what the people were saying,

what a part of the people were saying.

You ignore someone if you can't hear them or don't want to.

Forty-eight hours went by.

It was 4:00 p.m. that Saturday.

ETA made good on its threat

and murdered Miguel Ángel Blanco.

We've received confirmation…

JULY 13TH

…that Miguel Ángel has been murdered.

Murderers!

They're not Basque! They're murderers!

ETA, shoot me in the head!

You saw that crowd of Basque people shouting,

for example, "They're not Basque. They're murderers."

"ETA, shoot me in the head." What was your assessment?

My assessment was that it was clear and obvious

that part of the men and women of the Basque Country disagreed

and took issue with it.

That was my assessment.

Even people who used to agree with the thesis…

I don't know who did or didn't agree.

Maybe many people that historically hadn't "taken to the streets," as you say, did so

to voice their dissent.

That's obvious.

Did you know Francisco Javier García Gaztelu?

- Alias "Txapote." - No…

He perpetrated Miguel Ángel Blanco's murder.

If you could have talked to him, what would you have said

during the 48-hour kidnapping of Miguel Ángel Blanco?

I would've said I didn't think it was an operation….

that should have taken place. Period.

Why did you think that?

I believe it was…

a mistake…

in political and human terms, with irreversible consequences

that didn't favor whatsoever… the path…

which, from my point of view,

and I'm sure ETA's at the time,

was leading towards a negotiated settlement to the conflict.

Did you consider leaving ETA at that time?

Why? Because I disagreed with…?

No.

Today the Basque Country saw something unprecedented

yet entirely legal.

Josu Ternera, ETA's former leader,

entered the Parliament to register as a member of parliament.

Josu Ternera, one of ETA's heavyweights behind bars,

returned to prison after he had been freed for a few hours.

While in prison,

you were elected to the Basque Parliament in 1998

under the coalition Euskal Herritarrok,

which was a proxy of the party Batasuna.

You couldn't regularly attend parliamentary sessions

until you were freed in 2000.

Josu Ternera was released from prison today.

The Supreme Court ruled that in France he was already tried

and sentenced to ten years in prison for the same crime.

Now that I am free, I intend to participate

in an ongoing project in Euskal Herria, which is that of building Euskal Herria.

Seeing you in the Basque Parliament was stunning.

How did you feel the day you took your seat

as a representative of Basque citizens?

Nothing special. Just, well…

The people,

my constituency, obviously…

They elected me, and my duty was to do my job

in representing that part of the people, who elected me.

That was my duty. My obligation.

…information--

In 2000, the same year you start attending parliamentary sessions,

ETA doubled down and killed 23 people.

The last time ETA caused that many deaths in one year was eight years prior.

And they would never kill that many people in such a short span ever again.

Scream because as long as you scream, you're not killing!

Among the dead were

elected officials,

journalists,

or businesspeople that refused to pay ETA

the so-called revolutionary tax.

Doesn't the mafia kill people that don't pay up?

That's not the point.

Those deaths were avoidable.

Those people were involved in the process

and, as you said, knew the consequences.

Plus, they said so publicly and didn't bat an eye.

I'll say it again. I think it was sad,

but those were consequences of the conflict.

Did you support that type of revolutionary tax?

The revolutionary tax was necessary

for supporting the struggle of the pro-independence movement.

Following those 23 murders in 2000,

elections were held in the Basque Country in 2001.

You ran again as a candidate for Euskal Herritarrok.

The coalition went from 14 seats to 7 seats in the parliament,

and I believe they lost almost nine percentage points in votes.

I have a question.

I don't know if your decision to move towards ending the violence was

about ethics or strategy.

Both.

First of all, I had already realized

that we were in the middle of a repressive… spiral

and the ethical component wasn't being taken into account.

It hadn't really been taken into account, which led to certain outcomes.

The lack of sensitivity,

the lack of empathy on both sides… It was reciprocal.

So that was one factor.

The other factor was

that in order to move towards ending the conflict…

It's impossible to move towards ending the conflict,

if your strategy is violent confrontation.

I mean, that's entirely contradictory.

So, on the one hand, there was the ethical component,

or the fact that the confrontation lacked that component.

And on the other hand, there was the need to change strategies.

In 2002, the Supreme Court subpoenaed you to testify

about the 1987 attack on the Civil Guard barracks in Zaragoza.

You didn't appear in court.

You fled Spain and went back into hiding.

While in hiding, you participated

in the negotiations between ETA and the Spanish government

that began in June 2005.

You and the president of the Socialist Party of Euskadi,

Jesús Eguiguren, had your first meeting.

Is it true that one of the first things you said to him was

"I've come here to end the violence"?

"I've come…" That was one of the things I said to him.

"You and I are going to do whatever we can to put a stop to this period of violence."

I said that we needed to find a way to end the conflict,

that we couldn't leave it in the hands of future generations,

and that we had to do everything in our power to end it.

You and Jesús Eguiguren met again

in Oslo in November 2005.

You left Oslo with the commitment that there would be a cease fire

and that ETA would make a public statement to that effect.

In September 2006, you met in Switzerland.

And, this time, Jesús Eguiguren was there

as well as you and someone else on behalf of ETA,

Xabier López Peña, alias Thierry.

Was Thierry the leader of ETA at the time?

ETA never had…

ETA had collective groups, not individual leaders.

- No sole leader? - Not in that sense.

Was Thierry a member of ETA's collective leadership?

Of course, he came in that capacity.

I have no reason to believe

that he wasn't attending on behalf of ETA's leadership.

Why did Thierry go to the negotiation in Montreux?

At the time, I think ETA's leadership wasn't interested in…

negotiating. Instead, they were interested in continuity,

in continuing the political-military conflict,

the armed conflict.

That's because they weren't satisfied with the negotiations.

I thought otherwise.

And when I saw

that ETA's leadership disagreed with what I thought

and wanted to take a different tack, I had two options.

One, I could remain a member, which meant I'd have to follow orders,

or I could go.

And that's what I did.

- And you completely cut ties. - Completely.

- You no longer spoke to Eguiguren… - No one.

I went to a place I already knew.

- The Pyrenees? - The Pyrenees.

The department of Ariège.

Between 2007 and 2011, it's true that a debate arose within ETA

concerning… well, its future,

where ETA was going.

Though you were no longer in ETA,

did you participate in the internal debate in any way?

No, not at all.

Still on the topic of ETA and the surrounding environment,

during the last two decades, they felt enormous pressure

from Spanish law enforcement

as well as from the courts.

Different iterations of ETA's leadership were dismantled one after another.

Long live ETA! Long live a free Euskal Herria!

To what extent do you think the pressure from police drove ETA

to decide to permanently disarm?

That's part of controlling the narrative. They call it "controlling the narrative."

Meaning, they felt they needed to sell

the image of an organization in tatters.

That's the basis of psychological warfare.

You need to convince your citizens, both men and women,

that the enemy has been defeated, that they've lost.

Apart from psychological warfare, don't you think ETA felt cornered

by the pressure from its surroundings and even from within the organization?

I don't think… It was a matter of being practical.

When two separate States are coming at you with all their firepower,

especially in this day and age…

Well, that's tough for any organiza--

any movement, even more so for ETA

since they were in Europe and had the French and Spanish governments

breathing down their necks.

And it's also true

that the organization was always attuned to

what the people… had to say.

And at that time, the people were telling them things

that didn't fit within their framework of political-military confrontation.

ETA has decided to permanently disarm.

ETA calls upon the governments of Spain and France

to open a direct line of dialogue

in order to put an end to the consequences of the conflict

and to overcome armed confrontation.

ETA has announced that it will permanently disarm.

It is the clearest step towards peace the terrorist organization has ever taken.

Today we should celebrate this great victory of democracy.

What did you think about the final message of permanent disarmament?

Did you see it as a victory or a defeat?

- Neither. - How did you see it?

I saw it as the necessary step

given the reality of Euskal Herria.

Was that message delivered too late?

Not the message itself. The decision was made too late.

That decision, the permanent end…

to armed violence.

When was the right time for that message?

I thought so in 2005.

We get to May 2018.

- You personally read… - Yes.

You read what remains as ETA's final message.

"ETA,

the Basque socialist revolutionary organization for national liberation

hereby informs the Basque people that its journey has ended."

"As a consequence of this decision,

ETA has completely dismantled all of its structures."

"ETA was born from the people, and now it dissolves back into the people."

"Long live a free Euskal Herria."

- You were no longer in ETA. - No.

Why did you read ETA's final statement?

I read that statement

because I had a long career as a member of ETA

and as a member of the pro-independence left.

Whether you like it or not,

the fact that I appeared… How do you say it?

- Without a mask. - Yes.

That had… legal implications.

- Obviously. - Why?

I was reading a statement

from an organization that's considered a terrorist organization.

In theory, who would do that?

A member of the terrorist organization. However, that wasn't the case with me.

- That's an odd case. - Very odd.

But it's true.

This year, 2022, you're going to turn 72.

For decades, you encountered death up close.

- Are you afraid of it? - Not at all. That's life.

Do you think when the time comes for you to face death,

you might look back and have regrets?

Regrets? I think…

like any human being,

maybe I'd regret a few things.

For example, I'd regret…

that…

I hadn't done a lot more

in order to…

to stop that crazy wheel, that spiral of violence, much earlier.

I'd regret that because I didn't…

I mean, maybe I could've done much more to end that earlier.

In this conversation, you told us something we didn't know.

You revealed a lot, but there was a very specific thing we didn't know.

You were involved in the 1976 murder of the mayor of Galdakao.

We didn't know that, and you were never tried for that.

Do you still feel responsible for that murder?

Obviously.

Yes, I own the fact that I did what I was asked to do

as a member of ETA at the time.

So you claim personal responsibility

for the deaths caused not only by your cell but also--

No, I own my own actions.

Let's be clear. What I did.

I own what I did as a member of the organization.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I'd like to say the mayor's name.

It was Víctor Legorburu.

And his bodyguard was

a local police officer,

Francisco Ruiz Sánchez.

He was hit in the legs by machine gun fire.

And he wrote a book about that experience,

which was quite traumatic for him.

It was also traumatic for him to see how his neighbors shunned him.

People would cross to the other side of the street to avoid him in town.

He says that it was almost as if people were angry

that he survived that attack.

If the mayor's family is watching this, what would you say to them?

Well, I'd say what I've said before.

My deepest sympathy.

What about Mr. Francisco Ruiz Sánchez?

- The man that was wounded. - I'd say the same thing.

Let me tell you something.

No one enjoys killing.

No one.

Obviously not the person who's dead or their family.

But neither does the person who did it.

That is and always will be

a burden which that person, man or woman,

will carry for the rest of their life.

Do you carry it?

Obviously, and I'll say it for the third time

because I own

the responsibilities of my actions.

Therefore, I obviously carry that burden.

What's that burden like?

Well, it's a burden that entails…

a ton of things related to what one has done in their life.

Is it heavy?

Very.

Mr. Urrutikoetxea, was it all worth it?

Look,

if you're asking me whether my life has meant something,

because that's related to your question,

I'd say that for 50 years…

I participated in the struggles of the Basque people.

There were victories… Many victories and mistakes.

And…

it would be a shame for anyone

to say their life meant nothing after 50 years of fighting.

I'd call that a tragedy.

I participated…

and was true to my beliefs from the very beginning.

And up until the very end, I tried to live my life as a member

to the best of my ability.

Period.

I didn't expect any of this.

Jordi.

The thing is…

I just learned something new.

I never would've thought

that Josu Ternera was involved in that murder, Jordi.

I never would've thought that.

That's why it's worth saying that there are 330 cases,

whose perpetrators remain unknown.

We'd like to know who the perpetrators were.

As much as I was pleasantly surprised

by the interview that you conducted with this…

I was going to say "murderer."

We would've liked…

We'd like other people to testify in court.

That way we could live in peace and finally forget all of this.

Regarding your attack,

Josu Urrutikoetxea said that he expresses his "deepest sympathy."

I don't think so.

I don't think so.

He could've said…

He could've told you

that he regrets what he did.

Sure, he carries his burden around.

But he thought he was fighting for something,

to defend the Basque Country for whatever reason,

so they could be independent and form their own nation.

But he doesn't regret what he did.

If Josu Urrutikoetxea were here now, what would you say to him?

I'd tell him to apologize to me.

If he asks me for forgiveness

and acknowledges all the crimes he committed,

I'm a peaceful man.

All I want is peace.

So we can forget about that hate and terror we experienced for 60 years.

I don't know

if we'd end up shaking hands to put this whole thing behind us.

But I don't think that day will ever come.

After operating for nearly 60 years, ETA disbanded in 2018.

The organization never achieved

any of the goals upon which it was founded.

In 2021, the Basque pro-independence left acknowledged

that the pain that ETA's victims suffered "never should have happened."

As of the completion of this documentary in September 2023,

166 ETA members remain incarcerated in France and Spain.

In 2011, ETA announced that it would permanently disarm,

and the organization has never committed another act of terror.

ETA is the only terrorist organization in Europe to have done so.

Francisco Ruiz is retired and lives in a town in Ciudad Real, Spain.

Josu Urrutikoetxea is on parole in southern France

and awaiting extradition to Spain.

Subtitle translation by: Tom Sullivan