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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:01,380 --> 00:00:04,763 [dramatic music begins] 2 00:00:16,602 --> 00:00:20,296 [dramatic music continues] 3 00:00:38,348 --> 00:00:39,970 - [Reporter #1] Of Lucan himself, 4 00:00:39,970 --> 00:00:42,318 nothing has been seen since his children's nanny was found 5 00:00:42,318 --> 00:00:44,113 battered to death here in the basement 6 00:00:44,113 --> 00:00:46,011 of the family home in Belgravia. 7 00:00:46,011 --> 00:00:47,495 Exhaustive police searches 8 00:00:47,495 --> 00:00:49,877 of the South Coast produced no clue. 9 00:00:54,950 --> 00:00:56,607 - [Reporter #2] A massive manhunt is underway 10 00:00:56,607 --> 00:00:58,367 for the location of John Bingham, 11 00:00:58,368 --> 00:01:00,784 Seventh Earl of Lucan who has disappeared 12 00:01:00,784 --> 00:01:02,648 and is suspected of murder. 13 00:01:02,648 --> 00:01:06,135 Anyone with information is urged to contact police. 14 00:01:06,135 --> 00:01:09,759 [dramatic music continues] 15 00:01:15,385 --> 00:01:18,801 Bludgeoned to death at 46 Lower Belgrave Street. 16 00:01:20,563 --> 00:01:23,393 The Lucan family's 29-year-old nanny. 17 00:01:32,333 --> 00:01:37,338 - She is the primary victim and yet we don't talk about her. 18 00:01:38,650 --> 00:01:40,307 What we are really interested in, say the press, 19 00:01:40,307 --> 00:01:44,587 is the glamorous story of Lord Lucan and Veronica Lucan, 20 00:01:44,587 --> 00:01:47,210 and that is immensely tragic. 21 00:01:49,557 --> 00:01:53,182 - The murder that saw her lose her life has been defined 22 00:01:53,182 --> 00:01:57,220 in terms that don't even namecheck her. 23 00:01:57,220 --> 00:01:59,395 She's referred to retrospectively in the press 24 00:01:59,395 --> 00:02:01,328 as Little Miss Nobody. 25 00:02:01,328 --> 00:02:03,123 Well everybody is a somebody. 26 00:02:08,128 --> 00:02:10,509 - And she was always well turned out, 27 00:02:10,509 --> 00:02:13,719 very quiet girl just like the rest of us really. 28 00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:15,480 Very sad 'cause you don't want someone 29 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,896 you went to school with to be murdered, do you? 30 00:02:17,896 --> 00:02:20,243 It's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. 31 00:02:21,865 --> 00:02:23,487 - I feel guilty even now. 32 00:02:27,595 --> 00:02:31,634 I feel guilty because of a young baby going 33 00:02:31,634 --> 00:02:33,739 to grow without his mommy. 34 00:02:39,228 --> 00:02:42,334 - The victim in this case did have a name. 35 00:02:42,334 --> 00:02:44,509 That name was Sandra Rivett. 36 00:02:47,063 --> 00:02:50,273 [dramatic music fades] 37 00:02:56,003 --> 00:02:57,418 - The Lucan case. 38 00:02:57,418 --> 00:02:59,489 I can't remember a time when I didn't know about it. 39 00:03:03,183 --> 00:03:05,909 It's something that so many people have grown up with 40 00:03:05,909 --> 00:03:09,119 just in the collective consciousness somehow. 41 00:03:11,191 --> 00:03:13,227 People used to tell jokes. 42 00:03:15,574 --> 00:03:18,646 It's almost like he was a character 43 00:03:18,646 --> 00:03:20,683 rather than a person. 44 00:03:20,683 --> 00:03:24,583 I probably came across his name more commonly like 45 00:03:24,583 --> 00:03:27,655 that than I did for what he'd actually done. 46 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,971 - I joined the police in 1981 47 00:03:32,971 --> 00:03:35,870 and he was the suspect in a murder investigation. 48 00:03:35,870 --> 00:03:37,872 There would be times when I can remember friends 49 00:03:37,872 --> 00:03:39,391 and we were joking about something 50 00:03:39,391 --> 00:03:42,152 and I said, "Maybe Lord Lucan's gonna appear in a minute." 51 00:03:44,672 --> 00:03:48,331 - It has so many of the elements that make murder so very, 52 00:03:48,331 --> 00:03:51,645 very interesting and the fact that it happened in 53 00:03:51,645 --> 00:03:53,647 that incongruous setting of 54 00:03:53,647 --> 00:03:57,098 that beautiful tall white House in Belgravia 55 00:03:57,098 --> 00:04:00,170 and it's an unsolved mystery because Lord Lucan disappeared. 56 00:04:00,170 --> 00:04:02,725 So it's one of the great stories. 57 00:04:05,693 --> 00:04:09,973 - I've heard a lot of stories about Lord Lucan, 58 00:04:09,973 --> 00:04:14,184 but I know very, very little about Veronica Lucan 59 00:04:14,184 --> 00:04:17,636 and I didn't know Sandra Rivett's name until I came 60 00:04:17,636 --> 00:04:21,467 to do this project, which is alarming, isn't it? 61 00:04:25,713 --> 00:04:29,890 - This period of the 10 weeks when Sandra Rivett was nanny 62 00:04:29,890 --> 00:04:32,962 to the Lucan children is an unknown really. 63 00:04:32,962 --> 00:04:35,378 I believe she had a very good 64 00:04:35,378 --> 00:04:37,000 relationship with the children. 65 00:04:40,383 --> 00:04:44,318 There is no reason to disbelieve that she was happy there. 66 00:04:46,355 --> 00:04:49,323 She brought a cat to the house as well actually. 67 00:04:49,323 --> 00:04:51,670 So that was quite a sweet sort 68 00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:54,259 of domestic thing to do if you like. 69 00:04:54,259 --> 00:04:57,262 And it does seem like it was happy, 70 00:04:57,262 --> 00:05:00,576 it does seem like it worked for all parties. 71 00:05:00,576 --> 00:05:03,372 [gentle music] 72 00:05:04,614 --> 00:05:06,789 - She always wanted to go back to Australia. 73 00:05:06,789 --> 00:05:08,308 She talked about it a lot actually. 74 00:05:08,308 --> 00:05:10,655 She'd spent a lot of her childhood there 75 00:05:10,655 --> 00:05:14,623 and she just missed it terribly and she wanted to go back. 76 00:05:15,798 --> 00:05:17,593 She missed the weather, she missed the life. 77 00:05:21,286 --> 00:05:24,082 [dramatic music] 78 00:05:26,429 --> 00:05:28,568 My name's Mary Mackenzie 79 00:05:28,569 --> 00:05:31,572 and I went to school with Sandra when I lived in Caterham 80 00:05:33,402 --> 00:05:34,782 my friends rang me up 81 00:05:34,782 --> 00:05:37,267 and told me that Sandra had been murdered. 82 00:05:38,544 --> 00:05:42,617 Well I was shocked, hard to believe really and sad 83 00:05:42,618 --> 00:05:43,998 'cause she's got two boys. 84 00:05:43,998 --> 00:05:45,137 Sad for her children. 85 00:05:46,863 --> 00:05:48,727 They're more interested in him, weren't they? 86 00:05:48,727 --> 00:05:49,797 Than they were her. 87 00:05:51,385 --> 00:05:52,662 They seem to just put her as 88 00:05:52,662 --> 00:05:54,457 an afterthought really I thought. 89 00:05:55,976 --> 00:05:57,805 - [Reporter #2] The family's nanny killed in a murder 90 00:05:57,805 --> 00:05:59,048 most horrid. 91 00:05:59,048 --> 00:06:00,636 But the question on everyone's lips is 92 00:06:00,636 --> 00:06:02,292 where is Lord Lucan? 93 00:06:02,292 --> 00:06:03,259 Did he do it? 94 00:06:03,259 --> 00:06:05,365 If not, why has he disappeared 95 00:06:05,365 --> 00:06:07,125 and where could he be? 96 00:06:09,783 --> 00:06:12,268 - There's an article in which it says it was an ugly real 97 00:06:12,268 --> 00:06:14,339 life performance of upstairs, downstairs. 98 00:06:14,339 --> 00:06:15,616 And they then say, 99 00:06:15,616 --> 00:06:19,171 and she was firmly kept in her place downstairs 100 00:06:19,171 --> 00:06:21,346 where she was slaughtered. 101 00:06:21,346 --> 00:06:24,694 [dramatic music continues] 102 00:06:25,902 --> 00:06:29,250 So it is leaning into the class narrative. 103 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:32,978 I mean by what parameters are individuals judged. 104 00:06:32,978 --> 00:06:35,187 The Lucans were somebody 105 00:06:35,187 --> 00:06:40,227 and in relation to them, Sandra, she was erased. 106 00:06:40,779 --> 00:06:41,228 She was erased. 107 00:06:48,891 --> 00:06:51,687 [peaceful music] 108 00:06:55,242 --> 00:07:00,281 - Lord Lucan had a certain status in life 109 00:07:01,005 --> 00:07:02,869 and it was that status 110 00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:05,528 that protected him really. 111 00:07:05,528 --> 00:07:07,910 And we might think that things have changed, 112 00:07:07,910 --> 00:07:09,877 but if we look through history now, 113 00:07:09,877 --> 00:07:12,915 we've got our cultural royalty now rather 114 00:07:12,915 --> 00:07:15,055 than our actual aristocracy. 115 00:07:15,055 --> 00:07:19,646 People like Oscar Pistorius who are in these elevated 116 00:07:19,646 --> 00:07:24,582 and privileged positions and they killed partners. 117 00:07:25,893 --> 00:07:30,484 And yet in those cases, even given what we know now, 118 00:07:31,761 --> 00:07:35,489 we still focused on their narrative 119 00:07:35,489 --> 00:07:38,872 using their charisma to excuse 120 00:07:38,872 --> 00:07:41,495 and justify what they might have done. 121 00:07:41,495 --> 00:07:44,429 So things haven't changed that much. 122 00:07:49,054 --> 00:07:51,850 [peaceful music] 123 00:07:55,613 --> 00:07:57,994 - I got a call from a junior officer, 124 00:07:57,994 --> 00:07:59,893 like many officers in London 125 00:07:59,893 --> 00:08:02,723 that night would've heard the gossip. 126 00:08:02,723 --> 00:08:05,588 I think I'm right in saying I was probably the youngest 127 00:08:05,588 --> 00:08:07,694 reporter on the staff of the Evening Standard. 128 00:08:07,694 --> 00:08:11,283 I'd only just taken over on the crime desk. 129 00:08:11,283 --> 00:08:14,286 It was a very different time in the 70s. 130 00:08:14,286 --> 00:08:17,013 The police and the press, particularly in London, 131 00:08:17,013 --> 00:08:20,051 were very much in each other's pockets. 132 00:08:20,051 --> 00:08:22,363 There was also quite a lot of money passed 133 00:08:22,363 --> 00:08:25,746 and changed hands between reporters and police officers. 134 00:08:25,746 --> 00:08:28,715 In return for a good story, a return for a good tip. 135 00:08:29,992 --> 00:08:32,442 As a young crime reporter, I asked a colleague, 136 00:08:32,442 --> 00:08:33,823 "How do you get a policeman 137 00:08:33,823 --> 00:08:37,413 "to accept money in return for a story?" 138 00:08:37,413 --> 00:08:42,280 And I was told, "Well any copper in Britain will be happily 139 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,385 "accept a bottle of scotch." 140 00:08:44,385 --> 00:08:46,871 And after a while you say, I found this new way 141 00:08:46,871 --> 00:08:50,012 of putting a bottle of scotch in a brown paper envelope. 142 00:08:50,012 --> 00:08:51,461 It's called cash. 143 00:08:51,461 --> 00:08:55,293 And I found that little method of recruiting contacts 144 00:08:55,293 --> 00:08:57,157 to be quite powerful 145 00:08:57,157 --> 00:09:00,056 and in fact that was one of the ways I heard about 146 00:09:00,056 --> 00:09:03,197 that night was someone that I had recently treated 147 00:09:03,197 --> 00:09:05,924 to a paper envelope drink. 148 00:09:05,924 --> 00:09:08,064 Looking back on it, it was wrong, 149 00:09:08,064 --> 00:09:12,206 it was corrupt and I probably shouldn't be talking about it, 150 00:09:12,206 --> 00:09:14,968 but it happened in every Fleet Street newspaper 151 00:09:14,968 --> 00:09:17,004 and in every police station. 152 00:09:17,004 --> 00:09:19,697 [bell tolls] [dramatic music] 153 00:09:22,596 --> 00:09:24,564 - In terms of notifying police of the murder, 154 00:09:24,564 --> 00:09:27,705 it was actually the landlord of the Plumber's Arms. 155 00:09:27,705 --> 00:09:31,156 It was quite quiet that evening when Lady Lucan came 156 00:09:31,156 --> 00:09:34,297 through the door covered in blood being hysterical 157 00:09:34,297 --> 00:09:36,092 and almost fainting in front of them. 158 00:09:36,092 --> 00:09:38,163 It would've been a difficult scene. 159 00:09:38,163 --> 00:09:40,752 You know some people may have thought, is this a windup? 160 00:09:40,752 --> 00:09:42,789 She initially said her nanny had been killed. 161 00:09:42,789 --> 00:09:44,998 She said she'd been attacked by her husband. 162 00:09:44,998 --> 00:09:48,070 At that point the publican decided the best thing they could 163 00:09:48,070 --> 00:09:50,486 do was to try and calm her as best they could 164 00:09:50,486 --> 00:09:51,694 and inform the police. 165 00:09:53,351 --> 00:09:56,078 - I had a very good contact with Roy Ranson, 166 00:09:56,078 --> 00:09:58,563 the senior investigating officer, 167 00:09:58,563 --> 00:10:01,739 and I met him there that night at the scene. 168 00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:06,433 It was already quite chaotic. 169 00:10:06,433 --> 00:10:10,402 There was one or two policemen on the door. 170 00:10:10,402 --> 00:10:12,888 The forensic scientist I think had arrived. 171 00:10:12,888 --> 00:10:14,096 There was an ambulance, 172 00:10:14,096 --> 00:10:16,408 there was people looking out windows at 173 00:10:16,408 --> 00:10:19,515 what on earth was going on in the road outside. 174 00:10:19,515 --> 00:10:24,209 It was a very posh part of Belgravia and a very posh road. 175 00:10:24,209 --> 00:10:27,212 You didn't expect to see something like that. 176 00:10:27,212 --> 00:10:30,906 As I was about to join some of my other colleagues 177 00:10:30,906 --> 00:10:34,564 and photographers moving away down the street a little way, 178 00:10:34,564 --> 00:10:37,188 I literally got the wink from Roy. 179 00:10:37,188 --> 00:10:41,641 I slipped across to him and talked to him on that doorstep 180 00:10:41,641 --> 00:10:45,299 and he said there was a body, that it wasn't Lady Lucan, 181 00:10:45,299 --> 00:10:47,163 that Lady Lucan and had been hurt 182 00:10:47,163 --> 00:10:50,788 and that he was really interested in finding out 183 00:10:50,788 --> 00:10:52,962 where Lord Lucan was. 184 00:10:52,962 --> 00:10:55,482 [bell tolls] [dramatic music] 185 00:10:57,449 --> 00:11:00,211 - When you read the account provided by Roy Ranson 186 00:11:00,211 --> 00:11:01,937 and others, it was obviously a lot 187 00:11:01,937 --> 00:11:03,524 of officers had entered the premises, 188 00:11:03,524 --> 00:11:06,217 which would not happen now, 189 00:11:06,217 --> 00:11:08,771 the scene would have been contained very quickly, 190 00:11:08,771 --> 00:11:12,602 but back in 1974 it was a different time, a different era 191 00:11:12,602 --> 00:11:14,397 and things weren't necessarily dealt with 192 00:11:14,397 --> 00:11:16,572 as you would've wanted them to at the time. 193 00:11:18,056 --> 00:11:21,404 - Roy Ranson hadn't had any chance to talk to Lady Lucan. 194 00:11:21,404 --> 00:11:25,788 As we were talking, we were gravitating together almost 195 00:11:25,788 --> 00:11:27,031 to the top of the stairs 196 00:11:27,031 --> 00:11:30,482 and I got one look down into the basement. 197 00:11:33,623 --> 00:11:35,729 It had police lights down there. 198 00:11:35,729 --> 00:11:38,456 There were police officers who were walking through the pool 199 00:11:38,456 --> 00:11:41,665 of blood and tramping it up the stairs 200 00:11:41,665 --> 00:11:44,323 and it was just general mayhem. 201 00:11:45,774 --> 00:11:49,709 In the bottom of the stairs on the floor was the sack 202 00:11:49,709 --> 00:11:53,057 and Sandra Rivett's body was in that sack 203 00:11:53,057 --> 00:11:55,887 and she was doubled up. 204 00:11:55,887 --> 00:12:00,064 She'd been put in head and feet first. 205 00:12:00,064 --> 00:12:04,965 It was a very large American canvas mail sack, 206 00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:09,590 and as far as I know, they have never been able to find 207 00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:13,249 where that sack came from and why Lucan had it. 208 00:12:13,249 --> 00:12:14,941 We know why he took it to the house. 209 00:12:14,941 --> 00:12:17,150 It was to get rid of the body. 210 00:12:17,150 --> 00:12:18,599 So the only thing you could see 211 00:12:18,599 --> 00:12:21,568 of Sandra was very undignified. 212 00:12:21,568 --> 00:12:25,158 She had tights and white pants on and that was it. 213 00:12:28,506 --> 00:12:31,992 - The officers recovered a length of lead piping 214 00:12:31,992 --> 00:12:33,925 and it had been wrapped with tape. 215 00:12:33,925 --> 00:12:37,377 It was likely that that was the item that was used 216 00:12:37,377 --> 00:12:41,346 to attack not only Sandra Rivett but also Lady Lucan. 217 00:12:41,346 --> 00:12:43,866 We know that Lady Lucan's hair fibres were 218 00:12:43,866 --> 00:12:45,247 found on that item. 219 00:12:47,007 --> 00:12:49,078 One of the things to bear in mind is in this day 220 00:12:49,078 --> 00:12:51,943 and age, if you had a a weapon like that recovered, 221 00:12:51,943 --> 00:12:54,843 there would probably be that much more information 222 00:12:54,843 --> 00:12:56,845 that could be gleaned that you were more than likely 223 00:12:56,845 --> 00:12:58,950 to get DNA off of the weapon. 224 00:12:58,950 --> 00:13:01,401 But back then what they would mainly be looking 225 00:13:01,401 --> 00:13:04,611 for will be the fibres, blood and whether 226 00:13:04,611 --> 00:13:07,925 or not there were any traces of fingerprints. 227 00:13:10,479 --> 00:13:13,275 [dramatic music] 228 00:13:16,623 --> 00:13:19,971 Roy Ranson was the chief superintendent at the time. 229 00:13:19,971 --> 00:13:21,697 I tried to put myself in his shoes 230 00:13:21,697 --> 00:13:23,803 and think, so what would I do next? 231 00:13:23,803 --> 00:13:26,046 Well, we know that some of his staff were going 232 00:13:26,046 --> 00:13:28,911 to be doing the initial work at the scene in terms 233 00:13:28,911 --> 00:13:32,535 of exhibits, forensication, house to house inquiries. 234 00:13:32,535 --> 00:13:35,366 He would've been thinking, how am I going to identify 235 00:13:35,366 --> 00:13:37,299 how many suspects were involved in it? 236 00:13:38,783 --> 00:13:42,131 - The person who attacked her attacked her brutally 237 00:13:42,131 --> 00:13:45,203 and with an extreme amount of force, 238 00:13:45,203 --> 00:13:48,205 the force was from a blunt weapon 239 00:13:48,206 --> 00:13:52,038 and all of it was directed towards her head 240 00:13:52,038 --> 00:13:55,524 and face, which means that they were determined 241 00:13:55,524 --> 00:13:58,838 to do the most damage possible. 242 00:14:02,634 --> 00:14:05,637 This was a rage-fueled attack 243 00:14:05,637 --> 00:14:09,434 and it wasn't just one blow or a couple of blows. 244 00:14:09,434 --> 00:14:14,405 This was a lot of blows to Sandra's head. 245 00:14:14,405 --> 00:14:16,234 - The number one question 246 00:14:16,234 --> 00:14:18,616 that next morning would've been, who died? 247 00:14:18,616 --> 00:14:19,616 Who was murdered? 248 00:14:19,616 --> 00:14:21,204 And where's Lord Lucan? 249 00:14:21,205 --> 00:14:25,692 I can remember that being a very fierce topic of debate 250 00:14:25,692 --> 00:14:28,453 where he could possibly be, where he might be hiding. 251 00:14:31,940 --> 00:14:33,493 Had he done it? 252 00:14:35,012 --> 00:14:37,946 Sandra's identity and details 253 00:14:37,946 --> 00:14:41,052 such as they were would've come out the next day. 254 00:14:42,295 --> 00:14:44,642 - The police knowledge of the victim in terms 255 00:14:44,642 --> 00:14:48,025 of victimology was that she was the nanny 256 00:14:48,025 --> 00:14:49,647 to the three children. 257 00:14:49,647 --> 00:14:52,167 She had only been working at that address 258 00:14:52,167 --> 00:14:54,031 for about three months. 259 00:14:54,031 --> 00:14:56,274 She only started in August. 260 00:14:56,274 --> 00:14:58,828 It would've become apparent that the relationship 261 00:14:58,828 --> 00:15:02,349 between Lady Lucan and Sandra Rivett was healthy. 262 00:15:02,349 --> 00:15:03,178 It was good. 263 00:15:04,593 --> 00:15:08,355 - Sandra Rivett was almost certainly murdered in error. 264 00:15:08,355 --> 00:15:11,048 The intended victim had been Lady Lucan. 265 00:15:11,048 --> 00:15:14,534 This appalling set of circumstances 266 00:15:14,534 --> 00:15:18,572 whereby Sandra, who should have been on her night off, 267 00:15:18,572 --> 00:15:23,025 descended into the dark basement of this tall house 268 00:15:23,025 --> 00:15:24,440 to make some tea 269 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,547 and in the dark was mistaken for Veronica Lucan. 270 00:15:28,755 --> 00:15:31,137 - I think it's quite quickly forgotten 271 00:15:31,137 --> 00:15:35,037 that while Sandra is the victim of this piece, 272 00:15:35,037 --> 00:15:37,350 she's the young woman who lost her life, 273 00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:40,215 inexplicably and horribly. 274 00:15:40,215 --> 00:15:43,459 There is another victim and that's Veronica. 275 00:15:43,459 --> 00:15:47,325 [sombre music] 276 00:15:49,258 --> 00:15:51,605 - I have some sympathy with Lady Lucan 277 00:15:51,605 --> 00:15:56,438 because I think she did have mentally challenging issues. 278 00:15:57,784 --> 00:16:01,753 Lord Lucan wasn't a particularly caring husband to her 279 00:16:01,753 --> 00:16:03,238 and I don't think that 280 00:16:03,238 --> 00:16:06,413 after they got married he even liked her for long, 281 00:16:06,413 --> 00:16:08,036 from everything that I've heard. 282 00:16:09,934 --> 00:16:14,559 - Towards the end of 1972, Veronica turns to one 283 00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:16,837 of Lord Lucan's relatives 284 00:16:16,837 --> 00:16:19,185 and describes how she's been feeling 285 00:16:19,185 --> 00:16:22,153 and she says she could no longer cope. 286 00:16:24,259 --> 00:16:27,779 She describes how alone and unhappy she felt. 287 00:16:29,471 --> 00:16:33,233 She spoke of her husband's mental cruelty 288 00:16:33,233 --> 00:16:37,168 and she hinted at sexual and physical abuse. 289 00:16:39,377 --> 00:16:40,965 - We have to bear in mind 290 00:16:40,965 --> 00:16:43,347 that the accidental player in this narrative is Veronica. 291 00:16:43,347 --> 00:16:45,038 She's the person who survived 292 00:16:45,038 --> 00:16:47,454 and who later gave her testimony, wrote a book, et cetera. 293 00:16:47,454 --> 00:16:51,010 So we have to treat what she says with caution, 294 00:16:53,805 --> 00:16:57,671 but certainly she is very clear about aspects 295 00:16:57,671 --> 00:17:00,191 of their marriage that are shocking to read about. 296 00:17:00,191 --> 00:17:03,056 You know, the cane that was in his cupboard that he used 297 00:17:03,056 --> 00:17:04,264 to beat sense into her, 298 00:17:06,956 --> 00:17:09,718 beating out the nonsense before they had intercourse. 299 00:17:09,718 --> 00:17:11,789 This happened more than once. 300 00:17:13,998 --> 00:17:17,829 - There were accusations of abuse 301 00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:19,176 and control 302 00:17:19,176 --> 00:17:22,903 and stalking, which are the three classic, 303 00:17:22,903 --> 00:17:27,149 classic risk-markers that we would expect to see 304 00:17:27,149 --> 00:17:30,359 and I don't think I was surprised to see them, 305 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,259 but I was surprised that they were 306 00:17:33,259 --> 00:17:35,226 actually pretty well known, 307 00:17:35,226 --> 00:17:38,712 but nobody seemed to think they were particularly relevant. 308 00:17:38,712 --> 00:17:41,370 [sombre music continues] 309 00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:43,476 - Lord Lucan and starts telling people 310 00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:47,583 that Veronica's behaving oddly, suggesting 311 00:17:47,583 --> 00:17:52,278 that she's mad, making out that she's harmed herself 312 00:17:52,278 --> 00:17:54,418 by throwing herself down the stairs. 313 00:17:54,418 --> 00:17:56,558 He says all kinds of things that starts 314 00:17:56,558 --> 00:18:01,528 to build a very negative picture of her with other people. 315 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,394 His motives for doing that feel very devaluing. 316 00:18:05,394 --> 00:18:08,259 It's like, "I've had enough of this particular person 317 00:18:08,259 --> 00:18:10,779 "and I want them gone out of my life 318 00:18:10,779 --> 00:18:14,576 "and I will tell whatever story I need to get what I want." 319 00:18:15,715 --> 00:18:17,682 - The press knew within a day 320 00:18:17,682 --> 00:18:20,133 or two that some of the basic story 321 00:18:20,133 --> 00:18:23,411 that Lord Lucan wasn't living at the family home, 322 00:18:23,411 --> 00:18:26,173 that there had been disagreements 323 00:18:26,174 --> 00:18:28,072 about the custody of the children. 324 00:18:29,763 --> 00:18:31,696 There were several custody battles 325 00:18:31,696 --> 00:18:36,287 and Roy showed me the details of the one that really sank 326 00:18:36,287 --> 00:18:37,806 Lord Lucan in the end. 327 00:18:39,118 --> 00:18:42,776 Veronica reveals that Lord Lucan had made her dress 328 00:18:42,776 --> 00:18:46,125 in a rubber exercise suit so that she was hot 329 00:18:46,125 --> 00:18:48,955 and sweaty when they went to bed together. 330 00:18:48,955 --> 00:18:52,476 He had no clue that she'd ever used 331 00:18:52,476 --> 00:18:54,788 that information in public. 332 00:18:54,788 --> 00:18:58,516 So when Lord Lucan is sitting there in the custody hearing 333 00:18:58,516 --> 00:19:02,175 and he has his aged mother, Caitlin, the Doja Countess 334 00:19:02,175 --> 00:19:04,004 of Lucan at his side 335 00:19:04,004 --> 00:19:07,422 and suddenly out of the blue Veronica starts revealing 336 00:19:07,422 --> 00:19:12,427 the secrets of their bedroom sex games and his kinkiness. 337 00:19:14,222 --> 00:19:17,086 He had been so embarrassed that he hadn't been able 338 00:19:17,086 --> 00:19:20,918 to look at or talk to his mother for weeks afterwards. 339 00:19:20,918 --> 00:19:23,092 He didn't expect that to ever come out. 340 00:19:24,404 --> 00:19:26,025 I personally think 341 00:19:26,026 --> 00:19:29,375 that was the moment when Lord Lucan decided she had to die. 342 00:19:32,999 --> 00:19:37,072 - It's in the official record that he, 343 00:19:37,072 --> 00:19:40,179 I say manipulated her in her words, 344 00:19:40,179 --> 00:19:42,526 to go and get psychiatric treatment. 345 00:19:42,526 --> 00:19:45,977 He told her that she was going crazy. 346 00:19:45,977 --> 00:19:49,498 He told her that she needed drugs to keep her stable. 347 00:19:51,914 --> 00:19:56,125 - Veronica Lucan must have been a lonely person 348 00:19:56,125 --> 00:20:01,027 and Sandra must have filled a hole in her emotional 349 00:20:01,027 --> 00:20:03,512 and you know, social life. 350 00:20:03,512 --> 00:20:05,894 So they probably were getting on okay, 351 00:20:05,894 --> 00:20:08,137 they were getting on well enough for the children 352 00:20:08,137 --> 00:20:09,518 to really like her. 353 00:20:09,518 --> 00:20:13,212 They told their dad that she was a very nice nanny 354 00:20:13,212 --> 00:20:16,042 and that everything seemed to be going fine. 355 00:20:16,042 --> 00:20:19,045 [gentle piano music] 356 00:20:20,702 --> 00:20:24,326 - Sandra Elanor Hensby was born 357 00:20:24,326 --> 00:20:27,674 on the 16th of September, 1945. 358 00:20:27,674 --> 00:20:31,437 Her parents were Eunice and Albert 359 00:20:31,437 --> 00:20:35,234 and she had three sisters, two older, one younger. 360 00:20:36,959 --> 00:20:39,479 According to her school report, she was bright 361 00:20:39,479 --> 00:20:41,342 but not academic. 362 00:20:41,342 --> 00:20:45,760 She left school at age 14, which was not that unusual then. 363 00:20:47,107 --> 00:20:50,214 And then went out to work, which is what women did 364 00:20:50,214 --> 00:20:51,974 before they got married. 365 00:20:51,974 --> 00:20:55,771 First she trained to be a hairdresser, but then she moved on 366 00:20:55,771 --> 00:20:57,635 and became a secretary. 367 00:20:58,809 --> 00:21:00,706 - Sandra lived in the flats near me, 368 00:21:01,915 --> 00:21:04,573 we were all teenagers starting out on life 369 00:21:04,573 --> 00:21:05,988 and enjoying meeting people 370 00:21:05,988 --> 00:21:08,508 and looking forward to, well, deciding 371 00:21:08,508 --> 00:21:10,717 what you're gonna do the rest of your life. 372 00:21:12,132 --> 00:21:14,618 I took Sandra on one occasion 373 00:21:14,618 --> 00:21:17,690 to a dance in the barracks next door to us 374 00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:19,692 where the army was. 375 00:21:19,692 --> 00:21:22,073 It was always very nice, danced 376 00:21:22,073 --> 00:21:23,972 and met all the people there. 377 00:21:25,042 --> 00:21:27,561 I was 20 when I met my husband, 378 00:21:27,561 --> 00:21:28,976 I was at a dance at the barracks 379 00:21:28,977 --> 00:21:32,049 and he got me to pull out the raffle tickets 380 00:21:32,049 --> 00:21:33,361 and then he asked me out 381 00:21:33,361 --> 00:21:34,810 and then we went out together for a while 382 00:21:34,810 --> 00:21:37,641 and then we decided to get married and that was it. 383 00:21:37,641 --> 00:21:42,024 - In 1963 when she was 17, 18, 384 00:21:42,024 --> 00:21:44,303 Sandra had mental health issues 385 00:21:44,303 --> 00:21:47,685 and she did spend a bit of time in a hospital. 386 00:21:47,685 --> 00:21:50,378 That was after a very bad breakup, 387 00:21:50,378 --> 00:21:51,931 which I suppose is possible. 388 00:21:51,931 --> 00:21:55,383 You know girls are very susceptible at that age, 389 00:21:55,383 --> 00:21:59,145 but that seems to have resolved itself. 390 00:21:59,145 --> 00:22:01,837 But it was significant in another way 391 00:22:01,837 --> 00:22:06,221 in that she met a guy there slightly older who was working 392 00:22:06,221 --> 00:22:08,430 as a builder at the hospital 393 00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:12,572 and they fell for each other, young love, 394 00:22:12,572 --> 00:22:16,990 and when she was discharged, 395 00:22:16,990 --> 00:22:19,717 they carried on seeing each other 396 00:22:19,717 --> 00:22:22,030 and announced their engagement. 397 00:22:23,169 --> 00:22:26,275 - Very soon after Sandra becomes pregnant 398 00:22:26,275 --> 00:22:28,795 and she wants to get married to this guy 399 00:22:28,795 --> 00:22:32,972 and he gets cold feet and starts to withdraw 400 00:22:32,972 --> 00:22:34,594 and tells her, "You know what, 401 00:22:34,594 --> 00:22:35,837 "I'm not gonna go ahead with this." 402 00:22:35,837 --> 00:22:38,149 And this leaves Sandra heartbroken 403 00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:42,257 and on top of that, she's also pregnant at a time 404 00:22:42,257 --> 00:22:46,434 where single women pregnant, 405 00:22:46,434 --> 00:22:48,850 unable to look for support, 406 00:22:48,850 --> 00:22:50,886 would've left her in a very isolated 407 00:22:50,886 --> 00:22:52,992 and tricky position. 408 00:22:52,992 --> 00:22:55,512 [sombre music] 409 00:22:56,513 --> 00:22:57,376 [laughs] 410 00:22:57,376 --> 00:22:59,378 - Contraceptive options. 411 00:23:01,138 --> 00:23:04,037 Really the only way 412 00:23:04,037 --> 00:23:09,077 of not getting pregnant was to not have sex. 413 00:23:09,664 --> 00:23:11,907 [sombre music] 414 00:23:13,599 --> 00:23:16,187 - If girls had carried anything like condoms 415 00:23:16,187 --> 00:23:20,053 in the 60s, they would've been classed as loose women. 416 00:23:20,053 --> 00:23:23,263 It was a different world then you had to be more aware. 417 00:23:25,887 --> 00:23:29,580 - The contraceptive pill is not legalised until 1961 418 00:23:29,580 --> 00:23:33,239 and it's certainly not available to anyone initially. 419 00:23:33,239 --> 00:23:35,275 Wait for it, you have to be married 420 00:23:35,275 --> 00:23:38,555 and with one child to get the contraceptive pill 421 00:23:38,555 --> 00:23:39,831 in the early 1960s. 422 00:23:40,936 --> 00:23:45,113 - Abortion wasn't legal until 1967, 423 00:23:45,113 --> 00:23:46,908 she was either gonna become a single mother 424 00:23:46,908 --> 00:23:49,704 or she would do what a lot of young women did, 425 00:23:49,704 --> 00:23:51,775 which was give the baby up for adoption 426 00:23:51,775 --> 00:23:54,225 and that is what she prepared to do. 427 00:23:55,226 --> 00:23:56,814 But then her parents stepped in 428 00:23:56,814 --> 00:23:58,644 and said that they would bring him up 429 00:23:58,644 --> 00:24:00,818 and the baby believed 430 00:24:00,818 --> 00:24:04,407 that Sandra was his older sister, which was quite common. 431 00:24:08,136 --> 00:24:12,312 So moving on three years, we are in 1967, 432 00:24:12,312 --> 00:24:17,352 Sandra was having a relationship with a local estate agent 433 00:24:18,664 --> 00:24:20,286 and he was married so it didn't have a lot of future, 434 00:24:20,286 --> 00:24:23,082 unluckily got pregnant again. 435 00:24:23,082 --> 00:24:25,774 So she went down to her older sister Theresa, 436 00:24:25,774 --> 00:24:27,189 who lived in Portsmouth 437 00:24:27,189 --> 00:24:29,329 and this time she didn't really have a lot of choice 438 00:24:29,329 --> 00:24:31,400 but to give the baby up for adoption. 439 00:24:33,817 --> 00:24:35,197 - That's quite standard to move away 440 00:24:35,197 --> 00:24:37,268 when you're pregnant, you don't wanna be seen, 441 00:24:37,268 --> 00:24:39,478 don't wanna bring the family's name down 442 00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:44,068 and she gives birth when she's dating the man 443 00:24:44,068 --> 00:24:46,899 who becomes her husband, Roger Rivett. 444 00:24:46,899 --> 00:24:49,280 The baby, they don't keep, for whatever reason, 445 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,869 they decide they can't manage the child 446 00:24:51,869 --> 00:24:54,009 who is subsequently given up for adoption. 447 00:24:56,322 --> 00:24:57,841 - When I was researching the book, 448 00:24:57,841 --> 00:25:00,844 I found the adoption letter for the baby. 449 00:25:02,397 --> 00:25:05,331 I'm pleased to tell you we have a baby son for you. 450 00:25:06,574 --> 00:25:08,472 - [Tessa] He was born on February the fourth 451 00:25:08,472 --> 00:25:11,544 and weighs seven pounds, eight ounces. 452 00:25:11,544 --> 00:25:14,305 - His mother is a single girl, age 21. 453 00:25:14,305 --> 00:25:16,342 She already has one little boy 454 00:25:16,342 --> 00:25:19,345 who at the moment is being cared for by her parents 455 00:25:19,345 --> 00:25:21,278 and she feels she cannot possibly 456 00:25:21,278 --> 00:25:24,592 bring the baby up properly herself. 457 00:25:24,592 --> 00:25:26,766 - The baby's father is a man she's known 458 00:25:26,766 --> 00:25:28,285 for quite a long time. 459 00:25:28,285 --> 00:25:31,288 Unfortunately while his wife had a period in hospital, 460 00:25:31,288 --> 00:25:33,462 she visited his home on a number of occasions 461 00:25:33,462 --> 00:25:34,947 to help in the house. 462 00:25:34,947 --> 00:25:37,708 Intercourse occurred and she became pregnant. 463 00:25:38,985 --> 00:25:40,849 - She did not want to break his marriage, 464 00:25:40,849 --> 00:25:42,886 so came away from the area. 465 00:25:44,404 --> 00:25:46,821 God, that tells a tale, doesn't it? 466 00:25:46,821 --> 00:25:49,478 [sombre music continues] 467 00:25:49,478 --> 00:25:51,550 I think it's pretty sad, really. 468 00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:53,103 She was very attractive 469 00:25:53,103 --> 00:25:56,624 and it sounds like she was quite susceptible and she was 21. 470 00:25:56,624 --> 00:26:00,662 It's not very old and it sounds like the bloke might have 471 00:26:00,662 --> 00:26:03,976 thought his lucky day had come 472 00:26:03,976 --> 00:26:05,633 when his wife was in hospital. 473 00:26:07,807 --> 00:26:12,605 - Sandra had very few life choices when it came 474 00:26:12,605 --> 00:26:14,780 to how she lived her life. 475 00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:17,196 But at the same time, I get the sense 476 00:26:17,196 --> 00:26:21,856 that Sandra was a very carefree, 477 00:26:21,856 --> 00:26:23,650 energetic kind of human being. 478 00:26:23,651 --> 00:26:25,998 So she was almost ahead of her time in the way 479 00:26:25,998 --> 00:26:27,586 that she was living. 480 00:26:28,725 --> 00:26:31,728 - Her sister Teresa subsequently says, 481 00:26:31,728 --> 00:26:34,108 "My sister said she loved children 482 00:26:34,108 --> 00:26:36,110 :but she wasn't cut out to have them." 483 00:26:36,111 --> 00:26:37,630 Theresa is trying 484 00:26:37,630 --> 00:26:41,634 to justify why her sister didn't bring up her own children, 485 00:26:41,634 --> 00:26:43,187 but she doesn't need to 486 00:26:43,187 --> 00:26:45,362 because we know in that decade, in the 60s 487 00:26:45,362 --> 00:26:48,883 and the 70s, the majority of girls 488 00:26:48,883 --> 00:26:52,507 who had children out of wedlock could not keep them. 489 00:26:55,579 --> 00:26:58,201 We were the highest year 490 00:26:58,201 --> 00:27:02,102 for adoption rates in Britain in the 60s. 491 00:27:02,103 --> 00:27:03,932 1968, 492 00:27:03,932 --> 00:27:08,109 24,000 babies adopted. 493 00:27:08,109 --> 00:27:12,285 That is how many girls were trying their luck. 494 00:27:12,285 --> 00:27:16,738 Didn't know how to say no, fell the wrong side of the gamble 495 00:27:16,738 --> 00:27:19,327 and had a baby that was illegitimate. 496 00:27:19,327 --> 00:27:22,294 [babies crying] 497 00:27:22,294 --> 00:27:25,781 - She married Roger Rivett when she was 22. 498 00:27:25,782 --> 00:27:29,130 They got married in a registry office in Croydon. 499 00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:31,442 He was away at sea a lot of the time. 500 00:27:31,442 --> 00:27:33,513 Apparently he got suspicious when she used 501 00:27:33,513 --> 00:27:35,723 to write regularly and then the letters became a bit 502 00:27:35,723 --> 00:27:37,345 less frequent. 503 00:27:37,345 --> 00:27:38,760 - He's in the Navy. 504 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,589 I mean she's quite lonely I think when he's away, 505 00:27:40,589 --> 00:27:42,212 but she's always working. 506 00:27:42,212 --> 00:27:45,249 - In 1969, Roger came back to England. 507 00:27:45,249 --> 00:27:49,184 I think the marriage probably got back on track. 508 00:27:49,184 --> 00:27:51,877 Sandra was actually working at an orphanage. 509 00:27:51,877 --> 00:27:53,395 She started as a cleaner, 510 00:27:53,395 --> 00:27:55,881 but I think she got more involved 511 00:27:55,881 --> 00:27:58,090 with working with the children. 512 00:27:58,090 --> 00:28:01,507 But then we go to 1973 513 00:28:01,507 --> 00:28:04,475 and Roger went back to sea again. 514 00:28:04,475 --> 00:28:08,238 We had that pattern of letters becoming less frequent. 515 00:28:08,238 --> 00:28:11,241 And then the final, the sort of climax 516 00:28:11,241 --> 00:28:13,933 came in May of 1974. 517 00:28:13,933 --> 00:28:16,556 They had a huge row and he left. 518 00:28:16,556 --> 00:28:17,488 That was the end. 519 00:28:18,697 --> 00:28:20,008 - We know that when the marriage breaks down, 520 00:28:20,008 --> 00:28:21,769 she moves up to London. 521 00:28:21,769 --> 00:28:24,219 [sombre music continues] 522 00:28:25,496 --> 00:28:27,878 - She seemed to experience a new lease of life 523 00:28:27,878 --> 00:28:30,363 after separating from Roger, she was going out, 524 00:28:30,363 --> 00:28:32,952 she was engaging with friends, she was having a good time 525 00:28:32,952 --> 00:28:36,784 and she puts her name down for domestic service. 526 00:28:36,784 --> 00:28:40,132 She has one job that's fairly short-lived 527 00:28:40,132 --> 00:28:43,031 and then her next job is with the Lucans. 528 00:28:43,998 --> 00:28:46,759 [suspenseful music] 529 00:28:50,107 --> 00:28:54,008 - That was sort of paralleled almost by the dislocation 530 00:28:54,008 --> 00:28:57,494 and breakdown of Veronica's marriage 531 00:28:57,494 --> 00:29:00,152 and I think that's one of the reasons why the girls, 532 00:29:00,152 --> 00:29:01,670 the women hit it off. 533 00:29:01,670 --> 00:29:03,776 And actually Veronica says herself, these were happy times. 534 00:29:03,776 --> 00:29:05,226 They laughed a lot together. 535 00:29:06,641 --> 00:29:10,127 - She was employed to be a nanny to the three children 536 00:29:10,127 --> 00:29:14,200 of the Lucan marriage, Francis, George and Camilla. 537 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,031 The wage was 25 pounds a week, 538 00:29:17,031 --> 00:29:20,172 which even in modern money isn't very much, 539 00:29:20,172 --> 00:29:21,863 but of course she had accommodation. 540 00:29:21,863 --> 00:29:26,005 She was living in a house in Belgravia, 541 00:29:26,005 --> 00:29:29,250 a really very lovely house. 542 00:29:29,250 --> 00:29:33,426 She hadn't even unpacked all her things when she died. 543 00:29:35,014 --> 00:29:37,568 [tense music] 544 00:29:48,752 --> 00:29:51,651 - Veronica was a fairly challenging employer, 545 00:29:51,651 --> 00:29:55,103 but nonetheless Sandra knows how to please people, 546 00:29:55,103 --> 00:29:57,796 it's one of the things that makes Sandra so appealing, 547 00:29:57,796 --> 00:29:59,314 so attractive. 548 00:29:59,314 --> 00:30:03,215 - She was one of a long procession of nannies. 549 00:30:05,355 --> 00:30:08,047 There was one that only lasted four days. 550 00:30:08,047 --> 00:30:10,084 There was one that lasted a bit longer. 551 00:30:10,084 --> 00:30:14,639 There were 6, 7, 8, I don't know, it's not clear. 552 00:30:14,639 --> 00:30:17,090 But anyway, she arrived 553 00:30:18,333 --> 00:30:20,853 and it seems to have been a success. 554 00:30:24,443 --> 00:30:26,065 - Both Sandra 555 00:30:26,065 --> 00:30:31,070 and Veronica in their own lives had psychological struggles. 556 00:30:32,209 --> 00:30:34,349 They'd had real challenges and difficulties 557 00:30:34,349 --> 00:30:37,076 and they were trying 558 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:39,976 to find their way in their own lives 559 00:30:39,976 --> 00:30:43,151 and this is the point at which they come together under 560 00:30:43,151 --> 00:30:48,122 Veronica's roof and they make sense to one another. 561 00:30:50,469 --> 00:30:51,850 - What's interesting is noting 562 00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:53,921 how Sandra checked in on Veronica when she 563 00:30:53,921 --> 00:30:55,267 wasn't working the weekends. 564 00:30:55,267 --> 00:30:58,857 She picked up on her employer's vulnerability 565 00:30:58,857 --> 00:31:02,791 and Veronica felt able to share 566 00:31:02,791 --> 00:31:04,310 that vulnerability with Sandra. 567 00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:06,208 There was a kinship. 568 00:31:06,209 --> 00:31:09,452 There clearly was a feeling of mutual sympathy. 569 00:31:09,452 --> 00:31:12,628 They understood each other's circumstances. 570 00:31:15,632 --> 00:31:19,084 [bright music] 571 00:31:19,084 --> 00:31:21,845 - Veronica Duncan as she was, 572 00:31:21,845 --> 00:31:24,330 was born in 1937. 573 00:31:25,434 --> 00:31:28,368 She had a younger sister, Christina 574 00:31:28,369 --> 00:31:31,372 and her father was an army officer 575 00:31:31,372 --> 00:31:33,374 who was killed when she was quite young. 576 00:31:33,374 --> 00:31:36,446 He was killed in a car crash, but her mother married again 577 00:31:36,446 --> 00:31:40,312 and they spent some of their childhood in South Africa. 578 00:31:40,312 --> 00:31:44,005 - Her and her sister Christina are sent to boarding school 579 00:31:44,005 --> 00:31:47,388 and I think this is incredibly difficult 580 00:31:47,388 --> 00:31:49,804 for the very young Veronica. 581 00:31:49,804 --> 00:31:53,049 Her and her sister are bullied for a number of reasons, 582 00:31:53,049 --> 00:31:57,398 which makes life for Veronica incredibly difficult. 583 00:31:57,398 --> 00:32:01,091 And I think her mother struggles with what to do, 584 00:32:01,091 --> 00:32:05,371 sends Veronica to a psychiatrist 585 00:32:05,371 --> 00:32:09,479 who labels her, a troubled child 586 00:32:09,479 --> 00:32:13,828 and I think that's where some of her issues begin. 587 00:32:15,864 --> 00:32:19,144 - The family left South Africa in 1949. 588 00:32:19,144 --> 00:32:21,180 They came back and they lived quite near 589 00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:24,011 where Sandra was born in Basingstoke. 590 00:32:24,011 --> 00:32:28,187 The stepfather ran a pub called the Wheatsheaf. 591 00:32:28,187 --> 00:32:30,845 I can remember one of the policemen talking 592 00:32:30,845 --> 00:32:31,915 to me about Veronica 593 00:32:31,915 --> 00:32:33,710 and he said, she always said, 594 00:32:33,710 --> 00:32:36,092 "I am a Countess of the realm." 595 00:32:36,092 --> 00:32:39,129 And he said she grew up in a pub, 596 00:32:39,129 --> 00:32:40,337 but they were the daughters 597 00:32:40,337 --> 00:32:42,408 of an army officer and what have you. 598 00:32:42,408 --> 00:32:46,033 She was very status aware, Veronica, no question. 599 00:32:47,137 --> 00:32:49,174 - Veronica got herself up to London. 600 00:32:49,174 --> 00:32:51,107 She tried her hand at various jobs. 601 00:32:51,107 --> 00:32:52,039 She wasn't a sticker. 602 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:53,247 She left art college. 603 00:32:53,247 --> 00:32:54,213 She couldn't really bear the idea 604 00:32:54,213 --> 00:32:56,250 of doing four years on a course. 605 00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:57,837 Now that again doesn't surprise me. 606 00:32:57,837 --> 00:32:59,736 Nobody had long-term really invested in her 607 00:32:59,736 --> 00:33:00,909 or spent time with her. 608 00:33:00,909 --> 00:33:02,118 She'd never lived or been settled in 609 00:33:02,118 --> 00:33:03,498 one place for that long. 610 00:33:04,879 --> 00:33:07,399 - By now, Veronica is 25 611 00:33:07,399 --> 00:33:10,160 and very hard for us to understand. 612 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,645 But that was then getting to the point 613 00:33:12,645 --> 00:33:14,130 of why aren't you married? 614 00:33:14,130 --> 00:33:17,511 You know the shelf, the dreaded shelf, 615 00:33:19,031 --> 00:33:22,034 I suppose the shelf was when you were 30, 616 00:33:22,034 --> 00:33:25,831 but 25 is, you know, the shelf is visible. 617 00:33:25,831 --> 00:33:27,419 One of the things that was said was 618 00:33:27,419 --> 00:33:30,974 that Veronica had a complex about being very, very small. 619 00:33:30,974 --> 00:33:32,113 She was, she was tiny. 620 00:33:32,113 --> 00:33:34,978 She was like a China doll almost. 621 00:33:34,978 --> 00:33:39,569 And she thought that being small was a sign of bad breeding. 622 00:33:40,673 --> 00:33:43,262 - Veronica absolutely felt single. 623 00:33:43,262 --> 00:33:46,231 She tells us later in her memoir, she admits, 624 00:33:46,231 --> 00:33:48,716 she says herself, "I cannot stress the importance 625 00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:51,029 "of getting married for my generation of women." 626 00:33:53,134 --> 00:33:54,894 Of course, a situation for her, compounded 627 00:33:54,894 --> 00:33:56,896 by the fact her younger sister, 628 00:33:56,896 --> 00:34:00,693 she had a successful marriage into the Shand Kydd dynasty 629 00:34:00,693 --> 00:34:02,178 and all the trappings of wealth 630 00:34:02,178 --> 00:34:04,283 and prestige that came with it. 631 00:34:04,283 --> 00:34:06,354 Poor old Veronica wasn't quite so lucky. 632 00:34:06,354 --> 00:34:09,047 - Christina married Bill Shand Kydd 633 00:34:09,047 --> 00:34:11,394 who was very connected, connections 634 00:34:11,394 --> 00:34:14,776 to the late Princess of Wales, Diana. 635 00:34:14,776 --> 00:34:16,123 A rich man, 636 00:34:16,123 --> 00:34:20,127 but that put Veronica in an orbit if you like, 637 00:34:20,127 --> 00:34:22,474 because she could visit Bill and Christina 638 00:34:22,474 --> 00:34:25,063 and there would've been Bill's friends. 639 00:34:25,063 --> 00:34:28,652 [tense music] 640 00:34:30,896 --> 00:34:34,624 One of Bill Shand Kydd's friends was 641 00:34:34,624 --> 00:34:38,248 the then John Bingham who would become Lord Lucan. 642 00:34:43,046 --> 00:34:46,187 John Bingham was beyond her wildest dreams. 643 00:34:46,187 --> 00:34:48,914 She would've thought he was a god. 644 00:34:48,914 --> 00:34:52,573 He was regarded as extremely good looking. 645 00:34:52,573 --> 00:34:55,679 I mean, he was asked to test for films and so on. 646 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:57,716 He was a catch, no question. 647 00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:00,960 And possibly she may have thought a better catch 648 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,171 than Bill Shand Kydd, which I think she might have enjoyed. 649 00:35:06,552 --> 00:35:11,039 - Lucan was considered as a possible James Bond. 650 00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:14,802 I mean, he was a handsome man, he was very sporty. 651 00:35:14,802 --> 00:35:18,564 He raced powerboats and he was really good at it. 652 00:35:20,877 --> 00:35:24,708 When you look at it, if I was producing a James Bond movie 653 00:35:24,708 --> 00:35:26,538 and I needed a character, 654 00:35:26,538 --> 00:35:31,577 then a powerboat racing, handsome, bobsleigh skiing, 655 00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:35,857 gambling aristocrat is a pretty good choice. 656 00:35:36,858 --> 00:35:38,481 He would've been a good James Bond. 657 00:35:40,621 --> 00:35:43,071 - It always reminds me a little bit 658 00:35:43,071 --> 00:35:47,145 of when Diana met Prince Charles, you know, 659 00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:49,906 and they seemed to understand each other 660 00:35:49,906 --> 00:35:54,842 and he may have thought this sweet young girl will 661 00:35:54,842 --> 00:35:57,293 be a nice docile wife. 662 00:35:57,293 --> 00:35:59,536 And she seemed to understand him 663 00:35:59,536 --> 00:36:02,021 and Lucan said to her, you know, "I'm a gambler. 664 00:36:02,021 --> 00:36:03,782 I'm gonna, this is my way of life." 665 00:36:03,782 --> 00:36:05,370 And she said to him, "Oh no, that's fine. 666 00:36:05,370 --> 00:36:06,923 "That doesn't matter at all." 667 00:36:06,923 --> 00:36:10,444 [gentle piano music] 668 00:36:10,444 --> 00:36:13,964 - Lord Lucan operated in a clandestine world, 669 00:36:13,964 --> 00:36:16,484 the Clermont Club, this is a gambling fraternity. 670 00:36:16,484 --> 00:36:20,557 They're operating without the standard norms of society 671 00:36:20,557 --> 00:36:23,181 and they are very much a boys club. 672 00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:27,461 In an old school world where class, status, wealth 673 00:36:27,461 --> 00:36:29,704 and title really meant something, 674 00:36:29,704 --> 00:36:32,569 [gentle piano music continues] 675 00:36:33,984 --> 00:36:37,540 - By the time that they are married, it becomes clear 676 00:36:37,540 --> 00:36:41,164 that Lord Lucan's friends don't really think that much 677 00:36:41,164 --> 00:36:42,786 of Veronica. 678 00:36:42,786 --> 00:36:44,961 She's not one of their set. 679 00:36:44,961 --> 00:36:47,895 And I think this message is reinforced when she goes 680 00:36:47,895 --> 00:36:51,588 to the Clermont Club where she is made 681 00:36:51,588 --> 00:36:53,487 to sit on the widow's bench 682 00:36:53,487 --> 00:36:57,663 and he is at the centre gambling, 683 00:36:57,663 --> 00:37:01,702 doing whatever he wants to do as the man's man. 684 00:37:01,702 --> 00:37:05,568 [dramatic music] 685 00:37:05,568 --> 00:37:10,469 - Lord Lucan was living in a quite a misogynistic time 686 00:37:10,469 --> 00:37:12,402 in history. 687 00:37:12,402 --> 00:37:15,267 He certainly thought he was superior to women. 688 00:37:16,441 --> 00:37:20,514 He recognised that Veronica was actually 689 00:37:20,514 --> 00:37:24,759 quite an intelligent, witty, quick woman, 690 00:37:24,759 --> 00:37:26,382 and he said to her, 691 00:37:27,590 --> 00:37:29,626 there can only be one captain of the ship. 692 00:37:29,626 --> 00:37:32,905 That's like, "Whatever I say goes, 693 00:37:32,905 --> 00:37:34,769 " it doesn't matter if you think you know better 694 00:37:34,769 --> 00:37:37,220 "or even if you actually do know better. 695 00:37:37,220 --> 00:37:39,222 "I'm the captain of this ship." 696 00:37:41,328 --> 00:37:45,228 He started to undermine Veronica, 697 00:37:45,228 --> 00:37:47,368 and one of the ways that he started 698 00:37:47,368 --> 00:37:50,957 to undermine Veronica was to question her mental health, 699 00:37:50,958 --> 00:37:53,409 her emotional stability. 700 00:37:53,409 --> 00:37:57,171 And this was something that got a lot worse 701 00:37:57,171 --> 00:37:58,448 and worse over time. 702 00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:01,002 - The Lucans had three children. 703 00:38:01,002 --> 00:38:04,730 Francis was born in 1964, George, 704 00:38:04,730 --> 00:38:07,802 so the heir, was born in 1967 705 00:38:07,802 --> 00:38:10,218 and Camilla was born in 1970 706 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,983 and there were questions of postnatal depression. 707 00:38:18,606 --> 00:38:21,713 - Veronica was known to rock back 708 00:38:21,713 --> 00:38:25,475 and forth from a very early age, 709 00:38:25,475 --> 00:38:29,341 and she was seen doing this in the Clermont Club, 710 00:38:29,341 --> 00:38:32,551 and I think that might have been a way 711 00:38:32,551 --> 00:38:36,486 of self-soothing whatever she was experiencing, 712 00:38:36,486 --> 00:38:38,764 and I think it's just one of those behaviours 713 00:38:38,764 --> 00:38:42,768 that she found helpful without consciously being aware that 714 00:38:42,768 --> 00:38:44,045 that's what she was doing. 715 00:38:44,045 --> 00:38:46,738 It was something almost very primal to her. 716 00:38:48,740 --> 00:38:51,467 - There were two incidents in 1972. 717 00:38:51,467 --> 00:38:54,297 One was that the Lucans were at the Clermont Club 718 00:38:54,297 --> 00:38:57,576 and Veronica threw a glass of wine in a woman's face, 719 00:38:57,576 --> 00:39:01,166 which was like a thunderbolt. 720 00:39:03,375 --> 00:39:05,170 People had been sort of more 721 00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:08,587 and more saying, "Oh, she's a nightmare." 722 00:39:08,587 --> 00:39:10,658 Which you can interpret as you wish, 723 00:39:10,658 --> 00:39:12,004 but the fact is she did throw a glass 724 00:39:12,004 --> 00:39:13,592 of wine in someone's face. 725 00:39:13,592 --> 00:39:16,595 You might be sympathetic to her for doing it, but she did. 726 00:39:16,595 --> 00:39:21,012 And then the second thing was that she sacked this nanny, 727 00:39:21,013 --> 00:39:23,015 the long-term nanny, 728 00:39:23,015 --> 00:39:25,673 and that seems to have been the last straw for Lucan. 729 00:39:25,673 --> 00:39:29,643 [sombre music] 730 00:39:32,266 --> 00:39:34,061 - The family was clearly in crisis. 731 00:39:34,061 --> 00:39:35,959 He moves out of the marital home. 732 00:39:35,959 --> 00:39:39,584 Clermont Club is sold, his gambling's out of control. 733 00:39:39,584 --> 00:39:41,862 He's having to spend a lot of money claiming custody or 734 00:39:41,862 --> 00:39:43,863 otherwise of his children. 735 00:39:43,863 --> 00:39:46,762 Building up to the main custody battle. 736 00:39:46,763 --> 00:39:50,146 She has to prove that she's mentally capable of looking 737 00:39:50,146 --> 00:39:52,562 after those children, of being the primary parent. 738 00:39:52,562 --> 00:39:55,910 So she checks herself into the priory and is assessed. 739 00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:57,635 - She had a guy from the priory come 740 00:39:57,635 --> 00:39:59,672 and say that she was completely cured. 741 00:39:59,673 --> 00:40:01,157 As long as she kept taking the right drugs, 742 00:40:01,157 --> 00:40:02,434 she was completely cured. 743 00:40:05,023 --> 00:40:07,266 She won the hearing and all the things she'd said 744 00:40:07,266 --> 00:40:10,028 about Lucan which were meant to be kept under wraps, 745 00:40:10,028 --> 00:40:11,547 all came out. 746 00:40:11,547 --> 00:40:13,997 You know all these things about his sexual deviancy 747 00:40:13,997 --> 00:40:16,310 and his general violence, 748 00:40:16,310 --> 00:40:19,175 general ghastliness, all this came out. 749 00:40:19,175 --> 00:40:22,385 [sombre music continues] 750 00:40:22,385 --> 00:40:27,183 - Veronica is told she has to have a nanny to help her look 751 00:40:27,183 --> 00:40:28,840 after the children full time. 752 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,152 And this is hugely problematic. 753 00:40:33,879 --> 00:40:37,952 - Sandra, she'd had quite a few predecessors 754 00:40:37,952 --> 00:40:40,783 over the previous year or so. 755 00:40:42,681 --> 00:40:44,649 - My name is Pierrete Goletto. 756 00:40:44,649 --> 00:40:47,859 I am French by birth 757 00:40:47,859 --> 00:40:51,482 and Italian by both my parents. 758 00:40:51,482 --> 00:40:54,451 I live with the Lucan family for a long time 759 00:40:54,452 --> 00:40:56,488 of I think over a year, 760 00:40:56,488 --> 00:40:58,835 and I look after the three little children. 761 00:40:58,835 --> 00:41:01,528 [gentle piano music] 762 00:41:01,528 --> 00:41:05,980 In 1974, I saw an advert of 763 00:41:05,980 --> 00:41:09,881 an agency looking for nannies. 764 00:41:09,881 --> 00:41:13,712 I was told that the nanny before me lasted for a few days. 765 00:41:14,886 --> 00:41:17,302 I have to go to a lawyer to be accepted. 766 00:41:17,302 --> 00:41:20,443 The lawyer, and I remember his question, 767 00:41:20,443 --> 00:41:23,998 "Will you stay if they have trouble in the family?" 768 00:41:23,998 --> 00:41:25,896 I say, "I am here to protect the children, 769 00:41:25,896 --> 00:41:27,967 "to take them away from it. 770 00:41:27,968 --> 00:41:28,969 "That's all." 771 00:41:28,969 --> 00:41:30,349 And then he said to me, 772 00:41:30,349 --> 00:41:33,731 "Right, you got the job. You can start. Great." 773 00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:36,908 I really loved the children. 774 00:41:36,908 --> 00:41:38,219 Really, really. 775 00:41:39,393 --> 00:41:41,706 Camilla was about two and a half. 776 00:41:41,706 --> 00:41:44,467 George was about five. 777 00:41:44,467 --> 00:41:45,917 Francis was the biggest one. 778 00:41:45,917 --> 00:41:47,505 She was about seven. 779 00:41:47,505 --> 00:41:49,023 We get up in the morning, 780 00:41:49,023 --> 00:41:51,923 I bring the food up in the nursery, we eat up there. 781 00:41:51,923 --> 00:41:53,476 We have a lot of fun. 782 00:41:53,476 --> 00:41:56,997 We read the story, get ready, take 783 00:41:56,997 --> 00:42:00,241 Francisca to the school, George would stay with me, 784 00:42:00,241 --> 00:42:02,760 then I cook the supper. 785 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,281 This was seven days a week, but on Sunday it was fun 786 00:42:06,282 --> 00:42:08,008 because we could go to the park. 787 00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:12,633 [tense music] 788 00:42:19,191 --> 00:42:22,609 - This isn't a standard nannying situation, bearing in mind 789 00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:27,061 that it's not normal to be fighting the custody of children. 790 00:42:29,098 --> 00:42:32,515 Divorce isn't commonplace in the early 1970s, 791 00:42:32,515 --> 00:42:36,174 so the situation is unusual. 792 00:42:36,174 --> 00:42:37,969 It's highly charged 793 00:42:37,969 --> 00:42:41,938 and I would think challenging, emotionally challenging. 794 00:42:44,354 --> 00:42:47,668 - I remember clearly my first meeting with Lady Lucan, 795 00:42:47,668 --> 00:42:49,221 with Veronica. 796 00:42:49,221 --> 00:42:52,362 I was lying on the floor, playing with the children. 797 00:42:52,362 --> 00:42:55,573 She said to me, "Is this the way you do in France?" 798 00:42:55,573 --> 00:42:58,955 I said, "This this the way the children like it." 799 00:42:58,955 --> 00:43:00,370 And she just walk away. 800 00:43:02,752 --> 00:43:06,238 The children didn't see their mother sometime for weeks, 801 00:43:06,238 --> 00:43:09,448 and when I was seeing her dancing around the table 802 00:43:09,448 --> 00:43:13,176 with a bottle of vodka, 803 00:43:13,176 --> 00:43:15,385 I knew it wasn't the time to talk to her. 804 00:43:17,284 --> 00:43:19,699 - What one did here repeatedly was 805 00:43:19,699 --> 00:43:21,701 that Lucan was a very hands-on father, 806 00:43:21,702 --> 00:43:24,911 unusually so for, you might say, the time, 807 00:43:24,912 --> 00:43:26,120 the class, whatever, 808 00:43:28,536 --> 00:43:31,056 he was a very affectionate father. 809 00:43:31,056 --> 00:43:34,542 I remember speaking to a nanny of the children of one 810 00:43:34,542 --> 00:43:37,407 of his friends and she said he was the only one 811 00:43:37,407 --> 00:43:39,927 who came into the nursery. 812 00:43:39,927 --> 00:43:42,654 [gentle music] 813 00:43:43,724 --> 00:43:45,450 - He was living down the road. 814 00:43:45,450 --> 00:43:48,798 I think it was Elizabeth Street if I remember rightly, 815 00:43:48,798 --> 00:43:51,318 because sometime I was in the dining room downstairs 816 00:43:51,318 --> 00:43:54,183 studying when he was coming at two o'clock, 817 00:43:54,183 --> 00:43:55,563 three o'clock in the afternoon 818 00:43:55,563 --> 00:43:57,462 before I go to pick up the children. 819 00:43:58,774 --> 00:44:02,640 I could hear them arguing, arguing about money, 820 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,437 arguing about gambling, arguing about wasting money, 821 00:44:07,437 --> 00:44:09,405 arguing about the children. 822 00:44:10,613 --> 00:44:13,858 "I am going to prevent you to see George." 823 00:44:13,858 --> 00:44:18,863 And that was the biggest threat Lord Lucan can have 824 00:44:18,863 --> 00:44:22,798 because one thing is sure, he love his children. 825 00:44:27,250 --> 00:44:31,807 Just outside Belgrave Street is a little kind of park 826 00:44:31,807 --> 00:44:35,638 and I was going there and I know he was passing 827 00:44:35,638 --> 00:44:39,504 and taking photos of the children. 828 00:44:39,504 --> 00:44:41,195 - He did two things with the nannies. 829 00:44:41,195 --> 00:44:42,749 He had them followed 830 00:44:42,749 --> 00:44:46,614 and he also did his best to tape record their conversations. 831 00:44:46,614 --> 00:44:50,308 So he had a private investigation company 832 00:44:50,308 --> 00:44:51,619 that was working for him. 833 00:44:51,619 --> 00:44:54,346 At times, they had two different operatives 834 00:44:54,346 --> 00:44:56,935 who would follow the nannies when the children 835 00:44:56,935 --> 00:44:59,006 left the house and follow Lady Lucan. 836 00:45:00,801 --> 00:45:04,978 It was a concerted bit of espionage that was going on. 837 00:45:04,978 --> 00:45:07,739 - The most startling behaviour for me 838 00:45:07,739 --> 00:45:12,295 that I saw in this case was the stalking that happened 839 00:45:12,295 --> 00:45:14,504 after they had separated 840 00:45:14,504 --> 00:45:16,610 and it probably wouldn't have been called stalking back in 841 00:45:16,610 --> 00:45:20,510 the 70s, but what he was doing was actually stalking. 842 00:45:20,510 --> 00:45:24,583 He was parking up outside Veronica's house 843 00:45:24,583 --> 00:45:27,759 and he would sit there for hour upon hour 844 00:45:27,759 --> 00:45:30,382 staring at the house. 845 00:45:30,382 --> 00:45:34,524 One of the nannies reported that there were 22 846 00:45:34,524 --> 00:45:38,459 heavy breathing phone calls to the house in just one hour, 847 00:45:39,806 --> 00:45:43,671 leaving either silent messages or heavy breathing. 848 00:45:43,671 --> 00:45:46,364 [tense music] 849 00:45:47,710 --> 00:45:49,781 Now that is to frighten somebody. 850 00:45:49,781 --> 00:45:51,818 This man is actually wanting 851 00:45:51,818 --> 00:45:54,890 to dominate Veronica's life. 852 00:45:54,890 --> 00:45:57,720 "I'm still here. I'm not going anywhere." 853 00:45:59,101 --> 00:46:01,240 - He would tape a call to Veronica 854 00:46:02,552 --> 00:46:05,693 and he would start off talking reasonably to her, 855 00:46:05,693 --> 00:46:09,318 and then he would slowly provoke her into losing her temper 856 00:46:09,318 --> 00:46:13,080 on the telephone and starting to rant and rave at him. 857 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:14,944 And only when she was ranting 858 00:46:14,944 --> 00:46:18,465 and raving, he would then turn on his tape recorder when he 859 00:46:18,465 --> 00:46:23,297 realised that nothing was gonna work to get those kids back 860 00:46:23,297 --> 00:46:27,198 other than removing Veronica from the scene, 861 00:46:27,198 --> 00:46:30,788 he abandoned all the sort of the nanny shenanigans, 862 00:46:30,788 --> 00:46:34,412 if you like, and just began concentrating on 863 00:46:34,412 --> 00:46:37,035 how do you kill your wife and get away with it. 864 00:46:37,035 --> 00:46:39,969 [suspenseful music] 865 00:46:39,969 --> 00:46:43,904 - I think one marry the other one for money 866 00:46:43,904 --> 00:46:46,838 and one marry the other one for a title. 867 00:46:46,838 --> 00:46:51,360 Veronica was very, very attached of her title of the lady. 868 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,432 I don't think he has any sign of violence. 869 00:46:55,743 --> 00:47:00,162 Lot of sadness, lot of hunger yes, but violence. 870 00:47:01,335 --> 00:47:03,337 This wasn't a term that we used for him. 871 00:47:03,337 --> 00:47:04,235 No. 872 00:47:06,271 --> 00:47:08,032 And one thing is sure, 873 00:47:08,032 --> 00:47:11,276 when he was telling hello to me, he was not telling hello, 874 00:47:11,276 --> 00:47:13,520 like if I was a dog, he was looking at me. 875 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,143 He was looking and saying, good afternoon. 876 00:47:16,143 --> 00:47:18,249 Thank you for looking after the children. 877 00:47:19,422 --> 00:47:22,149 - Any behavioural issues that Veronica displayed. 878 00:47:22,149 --> 00:47:24,876 The police theory was that they were Lucan's fault. 879 00:47:24,876 --> 00:47:29,674 They said that Lord Lucan had been trying to send her mad 880 00:47:29,674 --> 00:47:31,572 or convince her that she was mad. 881 00:47:31,572 --> 00:47:35,024 She said to them, "He used to take me off to psychiatrists." 882 00:47:35,024 --> 00:47:36,992 There was pretty strong evidence 883 00:47:36,992 --> 00:47:39,063 that the children shouldn't be with her. 884 00:47:42,514 --> 00:47:45,655 He had concerns about her as early as 1967 885 00:47:45,655 --> 00:47:48,624 and he didn't even leave the marriage until 1973. 886 00:47:48,624 --> 00:47:51,696 So that means he was playing a very long game, 887 00:47:51,696 --> 00:47:54,768 which frankly he wasn't capable of. 888 00:47:54,768 --> 00:47:56,218 And it's ridiculous. 889 00:47:56,218 --> 00:47:59,152 He just wasn't that imaginative. 890 00:47:59,152 --> 00:48:01,809 He just wasn't. 891 00:48:01,809 --> 00:48:05,986 - There are conflicting descriptions of what Lord Lucan 892 00:48:05,986 --> 00:48:07,643 was like as a person. 893 00:48:07,643 --> 00:48:10,818 Some people describe him as very charming 894 00:48:10,818 --> 00:48:15,339 and very charismatic and friendly and nice. 895 00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:19,448 Other people say that that mask slipped quite a lot. 896 00:48:21,139 --> 00:48:25,316 One of the things that we know about controlling people is 897 00:48:25,316 --> 00:48:27,939 that they are very, very manipulative. 898 00:48:27,939 --> 00:48:31,874 So they will learn as they go through life. 899 00:48:31,874 --> 00:48:36,154 What works, what gives me the most control? 900 00:48:36,154 --> 00:48:39,847 Most of this charm would've been used on people 901 00:48:39,847 --> 00:48:41,470 who could be useful to him. 902 00:48:42,954 --> 00:48:45,439 - His motivations to get rid 903 00:48:45,439 --> 00:48:48,235 of Veronica were very, very strong. 904 00:48:50,203 --> 00:48:54,276 Veronica was, in his eyes, ruining his life. 905 00:48:54,276 --> 00:48:58,694 And it wasn't only that she had won custody of the children 906 00:48:58,694 --> 00:49:02,077 in the most embarrassing way possible for him. 907 00:49:02,077 --> 00:49:07,082 It was also that she was living in the Lucan Trust's 908 00:49:08,566 --> 00:49:11,776 Belgravia mansion, while Lucan was living around the corner 909 00:49:11,776 --> 00:49:13,812 in a little two bed flat 910 00:49:13,812 --> 00:49:18,679 and she was spending money at Harrod's like it was water. 911 00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:22,131 No court was going to let him sell their family home 912 00:49:22,131 --> 00:49:24,099 so he couldn't access any of the money 913 00:49:24,099 --> 00:49:25,928 that he had locked up there. 914 00:49:25,928 --> 00:49:27,585 He was like many aristocrats. 915 00:49:27,585 --> 00:49:30,588 He was asset rich and cash poor. 916 00:49:32,900 --> 00:49:36,317 Divorcing her, which he almost certainly would've wanted 917 00:49:36,318 --> 00:49:39,321 to do, would possibly have made the situation 918 00:49:39,321 --> 00:49:40,978 even worse for him. 919 00:49:45,913 --> 00:49:48,571 - I think it was about the end of September, I was told 920 00:49:48,571 --> 00:49:52,679 by the lady from the Au Pair agency I wasn't needed anymore 921 00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:55,647 and they needed somebody 922 00:49:55,647 --> 00:49:57,546 English to replace me. 923 00:49:57,546 --> 00:49:58,443 I have to go. 924 00:49:59,582 --> 00:50:02,033 And then I did my, they were at school. 925 00:50:02,033 --> 00:50:03,931 I put my thing and I went. 926 00:50:05,347 --> 00:50:09,178 - Sandra was with an agency in Belgravia 927 00:50:09,178 --> 00:50:14,183 and her next job was at 46 Lower Belgrave Street. 928 00:50:15,978 --> 00:50:18,567 - I know almost nothing about Sandra. 929 00:50:18,567 --> 00:50:22,053 I met Sandra once because I forgot some books 930 00:50:22,053 --> 00:50:25,262 and I rung up to come to get them 931 00:50:25,262 --> 00:50:27,540 and she opened the door. 932 00:50:27,541 --> 00:50:28,956 She was not very big. 933 00:50:28,956 --> 00:50:30,993 She looked like a pleasant lady. 934 00:50:30,993 --> 00:50:33,720 I don't think she say a word to me. 935 00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:37,068 She hold the book and I say, "Thank you very much." 936 00:50:37,068 --> 00:50:39,691 She closed the door. Nothing else. 937 00:50:39,691 --> 00:50:40,692 No contact. 938 00:50:41,969 --> 00:50:45,387 I would've loved to ask how the children, no, 939 00:50:45,387 --> 00:50:47,596 they were at school, the babies. 940 00:50:49,667 --> 00:50:53,153 [gentle piano music] 941 00:50:53,153 --> 00:50:56,984 - It was very hard to get a nanny, a good nanny in London 942 00:50:56,984 --> 00:50:59,365 for a rate that wasn't too over the top 943 00:50:59,366 --> 00:51:02,749 because we know Lucan had money issues and therefore 944 00:51:02,749 --> 00:51:05,407 you get this extraordinary sort of revolving door 945 00:51:05,407 --> 00:51:07,305 of carers and au pairs 946 00:51:07,305 --> 00:51:12,069 and nannies that arrive in the family house, 947 00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:15,002 some of whom leave, some of whom aren't appropriate, 948 00:51:15,002 --> 00:51:16,797 some of whom don't cut the mustard, 949 00:51:16,797 --> 00:51:18,523 some of whom Veronica doesn't get on with, 950 00:51:18,523 --> 00:51:20,215 some of whom are only temporary anyway 951 00:51:20,215 --> 00:51:23,356 until the agency can get the right nanny. 952 00:51:23,356 --> 00:51:25,289 We know Francis, the older girl didn't really get on 953 00:51:25,289 --> 00:51:27,255 with the nannies and can you blame her? 954 00:51:27,256 --> 00:51:29,396 She had a different one every week virtually. 955 00:51:29,396 --> 00:51:32,468 [soft music] 956 00:51:33,711 --> 00:51:36,886 - I became a penthouse pet and a Bunny Girls, 957 00:51:36,886 --> 00:51:38,371 and I love it. 958 00:51:38,371 --> 00:51:40,269 I love the money I was making. 959 00:51:40,269 --> 00:51:42,547 It was just glamorous. 960 00:51:46,033 --> 00:51:48,588 I cannot remember the exact date, 961 00:51:48,588 --> 00:51:52,143 but I know that I left weeks 962 00:51:52,143 --> 00:51:54,904 before everything happened. 963 00:51:56,458 --> 00:52:00,220 My boss said to me, "Have you read the last article?" 964 00:52:00,220 --> 00:52:01,566 And I said, "No." 965 00:52:01,566 --> 00:52:03,603 He said, "You worked with Lord Lucan, didn't you?" 966 00:52:03,603 --> 00:52:05,605 And he gave me the paper and I read it. 967 00:52:09,609 --> 00:52:12,715 And I just walk out and I walk in the street 968 00:52:12,715 --> 00:52:15,787 and I said, "It could have been me." 969 00:52:16,788 --> 00:52:19,170 And then I straightaway said, "No, 970 00:52:19,170 --> 00:52:22,346 "that would not have happened if I did stay." 971 00:52:22,346 --> 00:52:25,625 And from this minute, the guilt came. 972 00:52:25,625 --> 00:52:29,249 First of all, I thought it was Veronica was killed, 973 00:52:29,249 --> 00:52:31,424 and that really shocked me. 974 00:52:31,424 --> 00:52:35,254 Then when I saw it was a mother of a young baby, 975 00:52:35,255 --> 00:52:37,671 a young child, I felt guilty. 976 00:52:37,671 --> 00:52:40,364 And this guilt is still here now, 977 00:52:40,364 --> 00:52:43,298 50 years on this guilt is here. 978 00:52:46,024 --> 00:52:47,370 It's all right. 979 00:52:47,370 --> 00:52:49,130 I have to cope, I live with it. 980 00:52:50,926 --> 00:52:54,171 [music box plays] 981 00:52:57,104 --> 00:52:59,314 - I mean, when you think of the chain of events 982 00:52:59,314 --> 00:53:01,419 and how they're affecting people's lives, 983 00:53:01,419 --> 00:53:03,904 the idea that a judge saying there has 984 00:53:03,904 --> 00:53:06,459 to be a nanny in situ all the time, 985 00:53:06,459 --> 00:53:09,945 and Sandra happily, innocently 986 00:53:09,945 --> 00:53:12,085 thinking, oh, what a great job. 987 00:53:12,085 --> 00:53:13,224 It's awful really. 988 00:53:14,501 --> 00:53:17,401 - When the police ask me question, I said to them, 989 00:53:17,401 --> 00:53:18,850 "I feel guilty. 990 00:53:18,850 --> 00:53:22,095 "No way they would ever murdered me." 991 00:53:22,095 --> 00:53:24,304 I never heard from the children again. 992 00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:30,621 My guilt was so great at the time. 993 00:53:32,726 --> 00:53:36,834 I felt that the children could have been killed as well. 994 00:53:40,044 --> 00:53:44,221 [gentle piano music] 995 00:53:44,221 --> 00:53:45,981 - Sandra appeared happy at her place of work, 996 00:53:45,981 --> 00:53:47,603 and she told her mother that. 997 00:53:47,603 --> 00:53:49,881 She'd ring her mother every evening. 998 00:53:49,881 --> 00:53:53,264 She would ring her boyfriend and say how happy she was. 999 00:53:53,264 --> 00:53:54,990 They probably felt very secure 1000 00:53:54,990 --> 00:53:58,234 and safe within the environment at that address at the time. 1001 00:53:58,235 --> 00:54:01,134 Unfortunately, that was to then to become a significant 1002 00:54:01,134 --> 00:54:02,687 and horrendous murder scene. 1003 00:54:02,687 --> 00:54:05,966 Less than half an hour after they were watching a television 1004 00:54:05,966 --> 00:54:08,762 and she'd gone downstairs, Sandra would've been killed. 1005 00:54:11,144 --> 00:54:14,527 - On the night it happened with Lady Lucan 1006 00:54:14,527 --> 00:54:16,563 taken off to hospital, desperately injured. 1007 00:54:16,563 --> 00:54:19,117 She had massive wounds to her scalp. 1008 00:54:20,291 --> 00:54:22,845 Sandra Rivett dead in the basement. 1009 00:54:22,845 --> 00:54:24,985 The children were completely alone in the house 1010 00:54:24,985 --> 00:54:28,472 with this horrible scene happening downstairs. 1011 00:54:28,472 --> 00:54:32,959 Lucan himself tried to get some help for them. 1012 00:54:32,959 --> 00:54:35,099 He telephoned his mother 1013 00:54:35,099 --> 00:54:38,240 and said, could you go to the house? 1014 00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:41,623 I believe that the only person in the room with 1015 00:54:41,623 --> 00:54:46,524 the Dowager Countess of Lucan was a police woman. 1016 00:54:46,524 --> 00:54:50,632 The police woman realised Lucan was on the phone 1017 00:54:50,632 --> 00:54:53,359 and then just did nothing, just sat there and listened. 1018 00:54:54,532 --> 00:54:57,570 - Lord Lucans mother asked Lord Lucan whether 1019 00:54:57,570 --> 00:55:00,711 or not he wanted to speak to the officer. 1020 00:55:00,711 --> 00:55:04,439 And his response was, "No, tell the officer I will speak 1021 00:55:04,439 --> 00:55:05,785 "to her tomorrow." 1022 00:55:05,785 --> 00:55:08,719 And for me, that was where part 1023 00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,239 of the investigation was going to be hindered. 1024 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,932 You can't have your possible suspect on the opposite end 1025 00:55:14,932 --> 00:55:17,659 of the phone who says, "I'll ring you tomorrow." 1026 00:55:17,659 --> 00:55:20,731 Your natural instinct would be, "Give me that phone. 1027 00:55:20,731 --> 00:55:23,630 "Hello, mate, you need to wind your neck in 1028 00:55:23,630 --> 00:55:25,182 "and we need to talk." 1029 00:55:25,182 --> 00:55:26,908 That's just policing. 1030 00:55:26,909 --> 00:55:28,739 I don't think of any police officer who would go, 1031 00:55:28,739 --> 00:55:30,706 "Yeah, I agree with that." 1032 00:55:30,706 --> 00:55:33,709 I don't understand why the officer didn't do it, I'm sorry. 1033 00:55:35,849 --> 00:55:40,060 - I think the details of how Sandra died 1034 00:55:40,060 --> 00:55:43,167 and the details of how Lady Lucan was hurt 1035 00:55:43,167 --> 00:55:45,859 didn't really come out in any great detail 1036 00:55:45,859 --> 00:55:48,310 until the inquest into Sandra's death, 1037 00:55:48,310 --> 00:55:51,037 which was some considerable time later. 1038 00:55:52,314 --> 00:55:54,696 The whole attention of the police 1039 00:55:54,696 --> 00:55:56,249 and the press was supposed 1040 00:55:56,249 --> 00:55:59,528 to be the worldwide hunt for Lord Lucan. 1041 00:55:59,528 --> 00:56:00,909 - I wish to interview him 1042 00:56:00,909 --> 00:56:03,463 and I'd like to interview him as soon as possible. 1043 00:56:03,463 --> 00:56:06,535 And if any person is helping him 1044 00:56:06,535 --> 00:56:08,848 or assisting him, we'd like them to 1045 00:56:08,848 --> 00:56:10,815 or have any knowledge of his whereabouts. 1046 00:56:10,815 --> 00:56:12,369 We'd like them to let us know. 1047 00:56:13,818 --> 00:56:15,441 - After Lady Lucan ran off 1048 00:56:15,441 --> 00:56:18,582 to the pub screaming and shouting, 1049 00:56:19,755 --> 00:56:22,688 and Lucan realised that he had to get away. 1050 00:56:22,688 --> 00:56:26,071 He into his car, the car that he had hoped to carry, 1051 00:56:26,072 --> 00:56:30,421 Lady Lucan's body away in, and he fled the scene. 1052 00:56:30,421 --> 00:56:33,528 And the only indication of 1053 00:56:33,528 --> 00:56:38,429 what he did then comes from the late Susan Maxwell Scott, 1054 00:56:38,429 --> 00:56:41,087 who days later reported 1055 00:56:41,087 --> 00:56:43,814 that he had turned up at her house on 1056 00:56:43,814 --> 00:56:45,505 the night of the killing. 1057 00:56:45,505 --> 00:56:46,782 - He looked a bit dishevelled, 1058 00:56:46,782 --> 00:56:48,508 may have had a bit of blood on him. 1059 00:56:48,508 --> 00:56:51,097 He asked if he could get a pen and paper, 1060 00:56:51,097 --> 00:56:53,064 and he wanted to write a couple of letters. 1061 00:56:53,064 --> 00:56:54,065 He then left. 1062 00:56:55,273 --> 00:56:57,931 - One of the letters, went to Bill Shand Kydd, 1063 00:56:57,931 --> 00:56:59,588 his brother-in-law. 1064 00:56:59,588 --> 00:57:02,660 Bill was a very, very close friend of his. 1065 00:57:02,660 --> 00:57:05,491 - No, I obviously can't divulge the contents of the letter. 1066 00:57:05,491 --> 00:57:10,357 All I can say is that it confirmed the story, 1067 00:57:10,357 --> 00:57:12,463 which he had told his mother 1068 00:57:12,463 --> 00:57:13,982 that there had been an intruder in the house. 1069 00:57:13,982 --> 00:57:16,502 Apart from that, I can't divulge any of the contents. 1070 00:57:16,502 --> 00:57:18,952 - I think he used the phrase, it's been a night 1071 00:57:18,952 --> 00:57:21,645 of unbelievable coincidences. 1072 00:57:21,645 --> 00:57:26,684 And he set the scene for what is his version, 1073 00:57:27,823 --> 00:57:29,341 his alibi for what happened that night, 1074 00:57:29,341 --> 00:57:33,034 or rather his defence for what happened that night. 1075 00:57:33,035 --> 00:57:34,554 - And he saw the intruder? - Yes. 1076 00:57:34,554 --> 00:57:35,659 He disturbed the intruder. 1077 00:57:35,659 --> 00:57:36,936 - What sort of a man was he? 1078 00:57:36,936 --> 00:57:39,766 - Generous man. A very gentle man. 1079 00:57:40,733 --> 00:57:41,872 Very much a family man. 1080 00:57:41,872 --> 00:57:44,564 He's really devoted to his children. 1081 00:57:44,564 --> 00:57:47,153 They are the most important thing in his life. 1082 00:57:49,742 --> 00:57:52,814 - When I interrupted the fight at Lower Belgrave Street 1083 00:57:52,814 --> 00:57:57,715 and the man left, Veronica accused me of having hired him, 1084 00:57:57,715 --> 00:58:00,580 I took her upstairs and sent Francis up to bed 1085 00:58:00,580 --> 00:58:02,824 and tried to clean her up. 1086 00:58:02,824 --> 00:58:05,033 She laid Doggo for a bit, 1087 00:58:05,033 --> 00:58:08,001 and when I was in the bathroom, left the house. 1088 00:58:09,313 --> 00:58:12,454 The circumstantial evidence against me is strong in 1089 00:58:12,454 --> 00:58:15,526 that V will say it was all my doing. 1090 00:58:15,526 --> 00:58:17,424 I will also lie Doggo for a bit, 1091 00:58:17,424 --> 00:58:20,531 but I'm also concerned for the children. 1092 00:58:20,531 --> 00:58:23,569 If you can manage it, I want them to live with you. 1093 00:58:24,915 --> 00:58:27,193 - To use the term, the circumstantial evidence against 1094 00:58:27,193 --> 00:58:28,401 me is strong. 1095 00:58:28,401 --> 00:58:29,954 It doesn't sit right with me. 1096 00:58:29,954 --> 00:58:33,337 It doesn't feel like the thing a normal person would say. 1097 00:58:33,337 --> 00:58:36,236 - He said to Bill Shand Kydd that he was going to run away 1098 00:58:36,236 --> 00:58:38,273 and lie doggo for a while. 1099 00:58:38,273 --> 00:58:40,827 That phrase has haunted me for 50 years 1100 00:58:40,827 --> 00:58:44,659 because lying doggo for a while is not I'm gonna go 1101 00:58:44,659 --> 00:58:46,143 and kill myself. 1102 00:58:46,143 --> 00:58:47,627 It's I'm gonna go 1103 00:58:47,627 --> 00:58:50,388 and hide under the bed clothes until somebody finds me. 1104 00:58:50,388 --> 00:58:52,529 And it's just, he's been hiding very well 1105 00:58:53,322 --> 00:58:54,600 for five decades. 1106 00:58:59,915 --> 00:59:03,022 - On the 9th of November, police had received information 1107 00:59:03,022 --> 00:59:06,543 that the Ford Corsair, that Michael Stoop had loaned 1108 00:59:06,543 --> 00:59:09,166 to Lord Lucan had been found in Newhaven. 1109 00:59:10,616 --> 00:59:13,308 The individuals who came across the vehicle said it had been 1110 00:59:13,308 --> 00:59:16,242 parked between five and 8:00 AM that day. 1111 00:59:16,242 --> 00:59:19,486 The vehicle was subsequently found by the officers locked, 1112 00:59:19,486 --> 00:59:21,833 which would imply that whoever was in it 1113 00:59:21,834 --> 00:59:25,216 may have intended to come back to the vehicle. 1114 00:59:25,216 --> 00:59:27,839 - The natural suggestion would be 1115 00:59:27,839 --> 00:59:31,428 that he then got on the Newhaven to Dieppe Ferry 1116 00:59:31,429 --> 00:59:33,224 and escaped to France. 1117 00:59:33,224 --> 00:59:34,778 But the reality is 1118 00:59:34,778 --> 00:59:38,126 that the police questioned just every passenger they could 1119 00:59:38,126 --> 00:59:43,165 find who had made that crossing on the day after the murder. 1120 00:59:44,442 --> 00:59:46,754 And they could find nobody among the passengers 1121 00:59:46,754 --> 00:59:49,308 or crew who saw 1122 00:59:49,309 --> 00:59:53,831 or remembered a six foot tall former guards officer 1123 00:59:53,831 --> 00:59:55,868 with a very big bushy moustache 1124 00:59:55,868 --> 00:59:59,975 and talking in a very plummy, aristocratic accent. 1125 00:59:59,975 --> 01:00:02,909 He wasn't somebody you could mistake in a crowd. 1126 01:00:03,841 --> 01:00:05,809 I think the police believed 1127 01:00:05,809 --> 01:00:09,329 that the car was left at Newhaven as a red herring. 1128 01:00:09,329 --> 01:00:13,023 Nobody would know apart from Susan Maxwell Scott. 1129 01:00:13,023 --> 01:00:18,062 And and her evidence was just never forthcoming. 1130 01:00:19,374 --> 01:00:21,825 - I would think that the probability is that he is alive, 1131 01:00:22,998 --> 01:00:26,415 but I have no knowledge, no foundation for that. 1132 01:00:26,415 --> 01:00:28,728 It's just a feeling. I think he's alive. 1133 01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,974 - I don't think there's anybody, certainly in London 1134 01:00:32,974 --> 01:00:34,527 that didn't know about this case. 1135 01:00:34,527 --> 01:00:38,013 It would've been front page, back page news, everything. 1136 01:00:38,013 --> 01:00:40,291 But that sometimes can work against you 1137 01:00:40,291 --> 01:00:42,466 because you're gonna get lots 1138 01:00:42,466 --> 01:00:44,123 of sightings coming from all over the world. 1139 01:00:44,123 --> 01:00:45,744 They were coming from Australia, 1140 01:00:45,744 --> 01:00:48,678 they were coming from Europe, certainly in the UK. 1141 01:00:48,679 --> 01:00:51,578 So that would've made it even more difficult. 1142 01:00:51,578 --> 01:00:54,512 - In the days and weeks after the murder, 1143 01:00:54,512 --> 01:00:57,239 the media generally were full of stories 1144 01:00:57,239 --> 01:01:00,760 of this worldwide hunt for the missing Lord Lucan, 1145 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,520 it was a great headline. 1146 01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,144 The truth of the matter is that Roy Ranson, 1147 01:01:05,144 --> 01:01:07,767 the detective in charge of the case, 1148 01:01:07,767 --> 01:01:10,390 never went on a worldwide hunt 1149 01:01:10,390 --> 01:01:15,430 because he had no evidence of where Lucan might be. 1150 01:01:16,742 --> 01:01:18,571 - 14 years ago when I was in the Met, I believe 1151 01:01:18,571 --> 01:01:22,160 that they would've identified where Lord Lucan was 1152 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:24,852 and he would've been arrested within days 1153 01:01:24,853 --> 01:01:26,752 or even weeks at the maximum 1154 01:01:26,752 --> 01:01:29,755 because there's so much stuff now that we have to do 1155 01:01:29,755 --> 01:01:32,136 that the moment you have your phone in your pocket, 1156 01:01:32,136 --> 01:01:33,690 it's pinging away on 1157 01:01:33,690 --> 01:01:35,899 where you are from the moment he left the scene from the 1158 01:01:35,899 --> 01:01:38,487 moment he ended up out in Newhaven, 1159 01:01:38,487 --> 01:01:40,697 all that information would be downloaded 1160 01:01:40,697 --> 01:01:43,458 and would have all that information in a matter 1161 01:01:43,458 --> 01:01:45,771 of 72 hours max. 1162 01:01:45,771 --> 01:01:47,426 So Roy Ranson 1163 01:01:47,427 --> 01:01:51,397 and his team were hamstrung by the lack 1164 01:01:51,397 --> 01:01:52,709 of technology 1165 01:01:52,709 --> 01:01:54,089 and all of those things 1166 01:01:54,089 --> 01:01:57,575 that an SIO now has to bring to bear. 1167 01:01:57,575 --> 01:01:59,716 If you're lucky in this day and age, 1168 01:01:59,716 --> 01:02:02,546 you could have solved that within 72 hours. 1169 01:02:02,546 --> 01:02:04,893 And if you're not, maybe in a couple of weeks. 1170 01:02:06,377 --> 01:02:09,518 [tense music] 1171 01:02:09,518 --> 01:02:11,658 - The most plausible thing I think, 1172 01:02:11,658 --> 01:02:16,698 and supported by the evidence, is that Lord Lucan 1173 01:02:17,423 --> 01:02:21,496 was absolutely enraged 1174 01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:27,191 that he had no control over Veronica. 1175 01:02:27,191 --> 01:02:29,884 He wanted custody of his children, basically. 1176 01:02:29,884 --> 01:02:32,852 He wanted to win and he was losing. 1177 01:02:33,957 --> 01:02:35,923 He went through an escalation period. 1178 01:02:35,924 --> 01:02:38,789 He started to fantasise about how he was gonna win. 1179 01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:41,343 He was gonna win by killing her. 1180 01:02:41,343 --> 01:02:42,759 He planned to kill her. 1181 01:02:42,759 --> 01:02:44,691 He went round there to execute the plan. 1182 01:02:44,691 --> 01:02:46,659 He killed the wrong woman. 1183 01:02:46,659 --> 01:02:51,698 A typical intimate partner homicide that went wrong. 1184 01:02:54,046 --> 01:02:58,291 - I think the murder was very premeditated. 1185 01:02:58,291 --> 01:03:01,191 There were a number of indications that it was premeditated. 1186 01:03:03,675 --> 01:03:05,573 The week before it happened, 1187 01:03:05,574 --> 01:03:09,786 he had custody of the children for a weekend or an evening, 1188 01:03:09,786 --> 01:03:13,720 and he talked to them about their new nanny, Sandra, 1189 01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,068 and they told him all about Sandra 1190 01:03:16,068 --> 01:03:18,380 and what a nice girl she was. 1191 01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:21,901 So he said, "I suppose your nanny has a boyfriend?" 1192 01:03:21,901 --> 01:03:26,319 And the oldest, Lucan girl said, "She's got a boyfriend." 1193 01:03:26,319 --> 01:03:27,700 and giggled. 1194 01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:31,738 And I think said, "We saw her kissing him." 1195 01:03:31,738 --> 01:03:35,846 and Lucan then said, "Does the boyfriend take Sandra out?" 1196 01:03:35,846 --> 01:03:37,779 And the children said, "Oh yes, 1197 01:03:37,779 --> 01:03:40,057 "she goes out every Thursday night 1198 01:03:40,057 --> 01:03:42,025 "because that's her day off." 1199 01:03:42,025 --> 01:03:45,234 It was the very next Thursday night that Lucan 1200 01:03:45,234 --> 01:03:48,306 turned up in the house with his intent to kill. 1201 01:03:48,307 --> 01:03:51,241 So it was certainly premeditated to the point where he knew 1202 01:03:51,241 --> 01:03:53,381 that the nanny would be out of the house 1203 01:03:53,381 --> 01:03:55,728 and Lady Lucan would be alone 1204 01:03:55,728 --> 01:03:59,111 and he was most likely to be able to kill his wife. 1205 01:04:00,733 --> 01:04:02,010 - It was common knowledge 1206 01:04:02,010 --> 01:04:05,358 that Sandra normally had the Thursday night off. 1207 01:04:05,358 --> 01:04:07,015 But on this occasion, she decided 1208 01:04:07,015 --> 01:04:09,569 that she wanted to change it. 1209 01:04:09,569 --> 01:04:13,297 We know before the attack she'd spoken to her boyfriend, 1210 01:04:13,297 --> 01:04:15,610 they talked about meeting up the next day. 1211 01:04:20,857 --> 01:04:23,894 [dramatic music] 1212 01:04:23,894 --> 01:04:26,517 - The murder happened on the evening 1213 01:04:26,517 --> 01:04:29,451 of the 7th of November, 1974. 1214 01:04:29,451 --> 01:04:34,491 As ever with this, there are very few hard facts. 1215 01:04:35,664 --> 01:04:37,735 We don't even know what time it happened 1216 01:04:37,735 --> 01:04:40,014 because there are conflicting reports. 1217 01:04:41,049 --> 01:04:43,603 While Veronica, two of her children 1218 01:04:43,603 --> 01:04:47,780 and Sandra were all upstairs in the main bedroom, 1219 01:04:47,780 --> 01:04:50,334 Veronica's bedroom, they were all on the bed together 1220 01:04:50,334 --> 01:04:53,027 watching the $6 million man. 1221 01:04:53,027 --> 01:04:57,410 And on the floor above was Francis, the elder child 1222 01:04:57,410 --> 01:04:59,999 who was watching top of the pops. 1223 01:04:59,999 --> 01:05:04,244 At some point between 1224 01:05:04,245 --> 01:05:06,903 25 to nine and five to nine, 1225 01:05:06,903 --> 01:05:11,355 Sandra Rivett went down into the basement to make tea. 1226 01:05:12,529 --> 01:05:15,118 There was a light bulb had been removed, 1227 01:05:15,118 --> 01:05:17,327 so she was in the dark. 1228 01:05:17,327 --> 01:05:19,087 She went down those stairs 1229 01:05:19,087 --> 01:05:22,159 and at the bottom of the stairs was attacked. 1230 01:05:22,159 --> 01:05:25,611 [dramatic music crescendos] 1231 01:05:25,611 --> 01:05:28,476 - I think maybe after the first two or three blows. 1232 01:05:28,476 --> 01:05:29,615 And she may have screamed. 1233 01:05:29,615 --> 01:05:30,892 He may have thought this is not her, 1234 01:05:30,892 --> 01:05:32,238 but he could not have stopped then. 1235 01:05:32,238 --> 01:05:35,828 He couldn't say, "Oh, sorry, wrong person." 1236 01:05:35,828 --> 01:05:37,347 So he had to kill her. 1237 01:05:39,418 --> 01:05:42,939 - Sandra collapses in a pool of blood and Lord Lucan 1238 01:05:42,939 --> 01:05:44,561 scoops up the body 1239 01:05:44,561 --> 01:05:48,254 and puts it into the big sack that he's come prepared with. 1240 01:05:48,254 --> 01:05:51,325 Now, it is entirely possible 1241 01:05:51,325 --> 01:05:53,534 that he doesn't know he's killed Sandra. 1242 01:05:53,535 --> 01:05:55,537 He thinks he's killed Lady Lucan. 1243 01:05:56,953 --> 01:05:59,921 And so he goes off to wash off the blood, 1244 01:05:59,921 --> 01:06:02,096 leaving the body in the sack. 1245 01:06:02,096 --> 01:06:05,582 All he can see of the body is her rocked up skirt 1246 01:06:05,582 --> 01:06:08,343 and underwear, which could well have been his wife's. 1247 01:06:08,343 --> 01:06:09,896 So he goes upstairs to 1248 01:06:09,896 --> 01:06:12,658 where there is a light in the ground floor, cloak room, 1249 01:06:12,658 --> 01:06:15,281 and that's where he starts to wash the blood off. 1250 01:06:15,281 --> 01:06:18,457 And it's at that point that he hears a noise outside 1251 01:06:18,457 --> 01:06:21,460 and he throws open the door, and there's his wife. 1252 01:06:21,460 --> 01:06:23,876 The woman who he firmly believed at 1253 01:06:23,876 --> 01:06:27,017 that stage was downstairs dead in a sack. 1254 01:06:27,017 --> 01:06:30,434 [water Trickling] [tense music] 1255 01:06:31,297 --> 01:06:33,437 He's totally shocked by this. 1256 01:06:33,437 --> 01:06:35,681 And he attacks Lady Lucan viciously. 1257 01:06:35,681 --> 01:06:38,856 I mean, he's got this lead pipe in his hand 1258 01:06:38,856 --> 01:06:41,825 and he's still swinging his pipe at her. 1259 01:06:41,825 --> 01:06:44,379 He hits her across the head several times. 1260 01:06:44,379 --> 01:06:46,864 She wouldn't have had the slightest chance 1261 01:06:46,864 --> 01:06:49,798 or knowledge of what was happening to her. 1262 01:06:49,798 --> 01:06:52,836 - It is so hard to know what was actually going 1263 01:06:52,836 --> 01:06:54,457 through his head at that point. 1264 01:06:54,458 --> 01:06:59,498 But what I would theorise is that he sounded 1265 01:07:00,050 --> 01:07:01,637 blood hot angry. 1266 01:07:01,637 --> 01:07:03,501 And after that, there might have been a moment 1267 01:07:03,502 --> 01:07:07,437 where he went, "Oh God, what have I done?" 1268 01:07:07,437 --> 01:07:09,853 - Upstairs, he's in a narrow corridor. 1269 01:07:09,853 --> 01:07:11,786 He's facing Lady Lucan. 1270 01:07:11,786 --> 01:07:14,030 And although he hits her without enough force 1271 01:07:14,030 --> 01:07:18,931 to knock her out, she's a wiry, feisty young woman. 1272 01:07:18,931 --> 01:07:21,244 And she's fighting for her life. 1273 01:07:21,244 --> 01:07:24,350 She scratches him, they're wrestling together. 1274 01:07:24,350 --> 01:07:27,112 And in the end, she reaches down 1275 01:07:27,112 --> 01:07:30,770 and she grabs hold of his testicles and squeezes 1276 01:07:30,770 --> 01:07:33,187 and twists as hard as she can. 1277 01:07:33,187 --> 01:07:36,914 And Lucan collapses to the floor with her. 1278 01:07:36,914 --> 01:07:39,365 They slide down the walls together. 1279 01:07:39,365 --> 01:07:42,127 And Lady Lucan is so clever. 1280 01:07:42,127 --> 01:07:44,646 She says, "What are you doing, John? 1281 01:07:44,646 --> 01:07:47,132 "What on earth are you doing?" 1282 01:07:47,132 --> 01:07:50,100 And he mumbles incoherently. 1283 01:07:50,100 --> 01:07:52,171 And she says, "Where's Sandra? 1284 01:07:53,241 --> 01:07:54,760 "Where's my nanny?" 1285 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,487 And he says, "I think I've killed, I've killed your nanny." 1286 01:08:02,008 --> 01:08:04,390 - They went upstairs to the bedroom 1287 01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:08,532 and he rang out a towel to clean her up a bit. 1288 01:08:08,532 --> 01:08:12,571 We know he was there because Francis, his daughter, saw him. 1289 01:08:12,571 --> 01:08:14,538 But when he was in the bathroom 1290 01:08:14,538 --> 01:08:16,540 cleaning up the towel and everything, 1291 01:08:16,540 --> 01:08:19,819 Veronica ran down the stairs, ran out the house, 1292 01:08:19,819 --> 01:08:22,270 ran up the street to the The Plumber's Arms pub, 1293 01:08:22,270 --> 01:08:23,927 and burst into the bar. 1294 01:08:23,927 --> 01:08:26,032 This was 10 to 10 1295 01:08:27,379 --> 01:08:30,485 and said, "Help, help my husband's murdered my nanny." 1296 01:08:30,485 --> 01:08:33,350 And from that point, it became a police matter. 1297 01:08:33,350 --> 01:08:34,800 They descended on the house. 1298 01:08:37,009 --> 01:08:39,632 [sombre music] 1299 01:08:47,364 --> 01:08:49,987 - Lady Lucan attended the inquest, 1300 01:08:49,987 --> 01:08:54,544 and her role was to give an account of 1301 01:08:54,544 --> 01:08:58,099 what happened to her in terms of the attack, 1302 01:08:58,099 --> 01:09:00,929 which resulted in her receiving those injuries. 1303 01:09:00,929 --> 01:09:03,829 The problem in this case is that at the time, 1304 01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:05,969 the law did not allow her 1305 01:09:05,969 --> 01:09:10,387 to talk about her husband's attack on Sandra Rivett 1306 01:09:10,387 --> 01:09:13,183 because at that time a spouse couldn't give 1307 01:09:13,183 --> 01:09:14,978 evidence against the other. 1308 01:09:14,978 --> 01:09:17,049 So all that Lady Lucan could talk about 1309 01:09:17,049 --> 01:09:18,326 was the attack on her. 1310 01:09:18,326 --> 01:09:21,743 She couldn't, in any way, give evidence about 1311 01:09:21,743 --> 01:09:25,126 what Lord Lucan said when she managed to calm him down 1312 01:09:25,126 --> 01:09:28,647 and he actually confessed that he had killed Sandra. 1313 01:09:28,647 --> 01:09:30,166 She could not give that evidence. 1314 01:09:30,166 --> 01:09:32,927 But that law has subsequently changed 1315 01:09:32,927 --> 01:09:36,793 where a spouse can give evidence against the other spouse in 1316 01:09:36,793 --> 01:09:38,415 relation to any offence 1317 01:09:38,415 --> 01:09:40,762 that they may have committed against them. 1318 01:09:40,762 --> 01:09:44,939 - At the inquest, which was June, 1975, 1319 01:09:44,939 --> 01:09:48,977 Sandra became more striking to my mind, really, 1320 01:09:48,977 --> 01:09:51,221 because you can understand the initial flurry around Lucan 1321 01:09:51,221 --> 01:09:52,947 and the excitement. 1322 01:09:52,947 --> 01:09:54,949 This very unlikely murderer. 1323 01:09:56,122 --> 01:09:58,366 Sandra's family were there 1324 01:09:58,366 --> 01:10:03,129 and her father, Albert said to the press, you know this, 1325 01:10:03,129 --> 01:10:05,235 "This is all meant to be about my daughter." 1326 01:10:06,374 --> 01:10:09,343 And her Aunt Vera said the same thing, 1327 01:10:09,343 --> 01:10:11,586 but more, she was stronger. 1328 01:10:11,586 --> 01:10:14,589 "My niece is caught in the crossfire between the Lucans 1329 01:10:14,589 --> 01:10:17,109 "and it's all about the Lucans." 1330 01:10:17,109 --> 01:10:19,456 Veronica had had a tough time as well, 1331 01:10:19,456 --> 01:10:24,461 but Sandra's family is where the sympathy should be going. 1332 01:10:25,151 --> 01:10:26,429 - It's just the dad 1333 01:10:26,429 --> 01:10:29,397 and the aunt sitting at the back quietly. 1334 01:10:29,397 --> 01:10:32,883 And what they reflect on is 1335 01:10:32,883 --> 01:10:35,817 why wasn't this about Sandra? 1336 01:10:35,817 --> 01:10:38,130 Why was she completely ignored? 1337 01:10:38,130 --> 01:10:40,650 And that is devastating 1338 01:10:40,650 --> 01:10:45,620 because within that you can hear the frustration, 1339 01:10:46,690 --> 01:10:49,624 the pain, and I reckon the rage of 1340 01:10:49,624 --> 01:10:54,388 "How dare you ignore my child, my niece, 1341 01:10:54,388 --> 01:10:57,494 "the victim of this story as if she doesn't matter." 1342 01:11:00,221 --> 01:11:03,535 - I saw the crime scene photographs 1343 01:11:03,535 --> 01:11:07,815 and she had taken blows 1344 01:11:07,815 --> 01:11:12,095 to her head, which were clearly unsurvivable. 1345 01:11:13,338 --> 01:11:15,478 I am no medical expert. 1346 01:11:15,478 --> 01:11:18,377 But you could not have survived the beating 1347 01:11:18,377 --> 01:11:19,965 that Lord Lucan gave her. 1348 01:11:22,657 --> 01:11:27,421 At the inquest, the main source of interest was not 1349 01:11:27,421 --> 01:11:30,216 how Sandra died. 1350 01:11:30,216 --> 01:11:32,598 It was where was Lord Lucan 1351 01:11:32,598 --> 01:11:36,740 and what was the jury going to say in their final verdict? 1352 01:11:36,740 --> 01:11:41,400 Because the inquest turned into the trial of Lord Lucan. 1353 01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,678 Sandra was virtually forgotten. 1354 01:11:45,059 --> 01:11:47,544 - And so it became a bit of a circus to some degree. 1355 01:11:49,235 --> 01:11:51,617 [tense music] 1356 01:11:53,930 --> 01:11:55,241 The media were there. 1357 01:11:55,241 --> 01:11:58,175 People turned up in their fine regalia. 1358 01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:04,803 You had Lady Lucan 1359 01:12:04,803 --> 01:12:06,908 who was still suffering from her injuries. 1360 01:12:06,908 --> 01:12:09,221 She had a hat that she wore every day to hide them. 1361 01:12:10,498 --> 01:12:13,018 - Lord Lucan had hit her over the head three times 1362 01:12:13,018 --> 01:12:16,124 with the metal bar with which he'd killed Sandra. 1363 01:12:16,124 --> 01:12:20,922 And she had vertical gashes running down her scalp like 1364 01:12:20,922 --> 01:12:25,858 this deep bone revealing gashes. 1365 01:12:25,858 --> 01:12:28,205 And she was still scarred 1366 01:12:28,205 --> 01:12:31,485 and her hair was completely wrecked by this. 1367 01:12:31,485 --> 01:12:33,038 So she was in the habit 1368 01:12:33,038 --> 01:12:36,973 of wearing tight turban hats each day. 1369 01:12:38,319 --> 01:12:40,045 Lady Lucan's hat attire 1370 01:12:40,045 --> 01:12:43,945 became a sort of a fashion item in the papers. 1371 01:12:43,945 --> 01:12:46,120 - Nine times out of 10 when you have a inquest 1372 01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,675 and a coroner obviously involved, nobody knows about it. 1373 01:12:49,675 --> 01:12:51,988 But this one was like everyday news 1374 01:12:51,988 --> 01:12:53,541 and public could have attended. 1375 01:12:53,541 --> 01:12:56,061 It was a circus and I don't think that that necessarily 1376 01:12:57,338 --> 01:13:01,687 allowed Sandra's family to find some closure. 1377 01:13:04,103 --> 01:13:07,659 The postmortem in relation to Sandra Rivett basically showed 1378 01:13:07,659 --> 01:13:10,247 that she had received, at least is it nine blows 1379 01:13:10,247 --> 01:13:12,629 to the head and face. 1380 01:13:12,629 --> 01:13:15,287 There was significant blunt trauma 1381 01:13:15,287 --> 01:13:18,877 and ultimately she died as a result of those blows 1382 01:13:18,877 --> 01:13:21,397 as well as asphyxiation from her own blood. 1383 01:13:22,467 --> 01:13:24,641 - It's what we call overkill. 1384 01:13:24,641 --> 01:13:27,748 So this was gratuitous in a way. 1385 01:13:27,748 --> 01:13:32,753 It was more violence than was necessary just to cause death. 1386 01:13:34,064 --> 01:13:37,171 Plausibly, he probably thought 1387 01:13:37,171 --> 01:13:39,587 that it was Veronica that he was attacking. 1388 01:13:39,587 --> 01:13:44,040 She was the one he felt all this rage towards, 1389 01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,387 that rage was pent up. 1390 01:13:46,387 --> 01:13:50,046 And because it was such gratuitous violence, 1391 01:13:50,046 --> 01:13:53,221 this killer is not only 1392 01:13:53,221 --> 01:13:56,017 and simply performing a homicide, 1393 01:13:56,017 --> 01:13:58,744 they're getting some emotional kind 1394 01:13:58,744 --> 01:14:00,643 of benefit from this as well. 1395 01:14:02,058 --> 01:14:04,060 - The coroner's conclusion, 1396 01:14:04,060 --> 01:14:07,166 and this was quite rare, he basically said 1397 01:14:07,166 --> 01:14:10,446 that Lord Lucan was responsible for Sandra Rivett's murder 1398 01:14:10,446 --> 01:14:13,069 and that is something that was unheard of. 1399 01:14:13,069 --> 01:14:15,899 And it created a bit of a backlash 1400 01:14:15,899 --> 01:14:18,488 because the whole point of the inquest was 1401 01:14:18,488 --> 01:14:21,974 to establish the circumstances surrounding someone's death. 1402 01:14:21,974 --> 01:14:24,666 Was it an accident? Was it deliberate? 1403 01:14:24,666 --> 01:14:27,945 But the coroner in this case went beyond that 1404 01:14:27,946 --> 01:14:32,537 and actually indicated that Lord Lucan was the person 1405 01:14:32,537 --> 01:14:34,884 who had murdered Sandra Rivett. 1406 01:14:34,884 --> 01:14:37,852 [sombre music] 1407 01:14:37,852 --> 01:14:39,475 - What's interesting is because 1408 01:14:39,475 --> 01:14:42,580 of the fanciful nature in the way this story was written up, 1409 01:14:42,581 --> 01:14:45,308 the press behaved in a way 1410 01:14:45,308 --> 01:14:49,105 that I think disrespected the death of Sandra Rivett. 1411 01:14:51,797 --> 01:14:55,214 There was a case of the newspaper report offering a case 1412 01:14:55,214 --> 01:14:59,425 of champagne to a reader who came up 1413 01:14:59,425 --> 01:15:02,325 with the most inventive 1414 01:15:02,325 --> 01:15:07,364 or fanciful end for Lord Lucan I.E, where is he now? 1415 01:15:08,227 --> 01:15:11,334 Give this horror story an end 1416 01:15:11,334 --> 01:15:14,371 and we will give you a crate of champagne. 1417 01:15:14,371 --> 01:15:18,272 So they're turning it really into a drama 1418 01:15:18,272 --> 01:15:20,964 and it had become, yeah, a fairy story, 1419 01:15:20,964 --> 01:15:24,104 a horror fairy story, a grim fairy story. 1420 01:15:26,073 --> 01:15:28,316 - The Fleet Street reporters 1421 01:15:28,316 --> 01:15:32,286 and I speak as someone who was proudly one 1422 01:15:32,286 --> 01:15:33,735 for many reasons, 1423 01:15:34,875 --> 01:15:37,533 are a pretty unfeeling 1424 01:15:37,533 --> 01:15:42,571 and pretty nasty pack of people. 1425 01:15:43,918 --> 01:15:46,748 A lot of my former colleagues are now snarling at me. 1426 01:15:46,748 --> 01:15:47,818 But it's true. 1427 01:15:49,268 --> 01:15:53,410 If you are dealing with a constant stream of nastiness, 1428 01:15:53,410 --> 01:15:56,206 one of the ways of dealing with that is to laugh it off 1429 01:15:56,206 --> 01:15:58,277 and make gallows jokes about it. 1430 01:15:58,277 --> 01:16:02,592 So I can't deny that the death 1431 01:16:02,592 --> 01:16:07,147 of Sandra Rivett would not have been greeted by 1432 01:16:07,147 --> 01:16:11,669 the Fleet Street Crime reporting pack with great sympathy 1433 01:16:11,670 --> 01:16:13,603 and sorrow. 1434 01:16:13,603 --> 01:16:16,433 That's not to say that on a personal level, 1435 01:16:16,433 --> 01:16:19,885 I, or many of my then colleagues 1436 01:16:19,885 --> 01:16:22,474 would not have had every sympathy for her 1437 01:16:22,474 --> 01:16:27,167 because she was just so unlucky. 1438 01:16:27,168 --> 01:16:30,896 But when you are in that situation now, 1439 01:16:30,896 --> 01:16:35,625 50 years ago, the intense competition 1440 01:16:35,625 --> 01:16:39,387 of Fleet Street, and I'm talking really intense. 1441 01:16:41,079 --> 01:16:44,461 You were going through a time in the 70s when she died, 1442 01:16:44,461 --> 01:16:48,224 when both the police and the press 1443 01:16:48,224 --> 01:16:50,744 were not at their finest, 1444 01:16:50,744 --> 01:16:54,955 their morals were distinctly un-fine. 1445 01:16:54,955 --> 01:16:57,785 It's regrettable, but it was how it was 1446 01:16:57,785 --> 01:17:00,961 and it wasn't driven by anyone's malice, 1447 01:17:00,961 --> 01:17:05,689 it was driven by a need as reporters and media 1448 01:17:05,689 --> 01:17:09,969 and editors would've seen it at the time by a need to 1449 01:17:10,798 --> 01:17:13,801 inform and keep circulation. 1450 01:17:13,801 --> 01:17:17,702 I mean, you know, it was a very competitive era. 1451 01:17:19,635 --> 01:17:23,052 - I think the police investigation was pretty terrible. 1452 01:17:23,052 --> 01:17:24,916 There was quite a lot of insinuation about 1453 01:17:24,916 --> 01:17:26,642 how she had a lot of boyfriends. 1454 01:17:28,298 --> 01:17:31,094 - She clearly liked having a boyfriend. 1455 01:17:32,268 --> 01:17:35,064 Is that a crime to like having a boyfriend? 1456 01:17:35,064 --> 01:17:36,824 I mean, it's a confusing world, the 60s 1457 01:17:36,824 --> 01:17:39,033 and 70s where women have to have a man, 1458 01:17:39,033 --> 01:17:41,069 but they have to have a man according 1459 01:17:41,069 --> 01:17:44,693 to the very narrow social expectations of the day 1460 01:17:44,694 --> 01:17:48,940 and the way Sandra did it outside of wedlock or divorced. 1461 01:17:48,940 --> 01:17:49,803 Wow. 1462 01:17:50,631 --> 01:17:52,115 And a slight overlap. 1463 01:17:52,115 --> 01:17:53,703 I mean, how many men have had an overlap? 1464 01:17:53,703 --> 01:17:56,430 Does one really deserve to be murdered 1465 01:17:56,430 --> 01:17:58,950 for having a very slight emotional overlap 1466 01:17:58,950 --> 01:18:00,986 in your heterosexual relations? 1467 01:18:00,986 --> 01:18:02,677 I think not, Great Britain. 1468 01:18:04,749 --> 01:18:06,820 - What really makes me sad about Sandra is 1469 01:18:06,820 --> 01:18:11,859 that if she'd been born 20, even 10 years later, 1470 01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:14,897 I think her life would've been completely different. 1471 01:18:14,897 --> 01:18:18,970 Sandra's sort of acknowledged boyfriend was Australian, 1472 01:18:18,970 --> 01:18:21,351 he was called John Hankins 1473 01:18:21,351 --> 01:18:25,770 and she'd met him in the Plumber's Arms Pub. 1474 01:18:25,770 --> 01:18:29,187 They seemed to have been quite serious 1475 01:18:29,187 --> 01:18:31,465 because it was reported 1476 01:18:31,465 --> 01:18:35,883 that she had asked Roger Rivett for a divorce 1477 01:18:35,883 --> 01:18:37,643 'cause they never actually got divorced. 1478 01:18:37,643 --> 01:18:40,646 And he said, "Okay, I'll divorce you." 1479 01:18:40,646 --> 01:18:42,476 But he never heard from her again. 1480 01:18:42,476 --> 01:18:43,891 Presumably that was 1481 01:18:43,891 --> 01:18:46,066 because she was getting serious with John Hankins. 1482 01:18:47,723 --> 01:18:50,208 - Veronica states on record several times, 1483 01:18:50,208 --> 01:18:51,829 including during the inquiry. 1484 01:18:51,829 --> 01:18:54,694 She never had a problem with Sandra. 1485 01:18:54,695 --> 01:18:56,662 Sandra had relations with men, 1486 01:18:56,662 --> 01:18:58,492 but she did not bring those men home. 1487 01:18:58,492 --> 01:19:00,770 They did not affect her work. 1488 01:19:00,770 --> 01:19:04,567 It's irrelevant, it's totally irrelevant. 1489 01:19:05,671 --> 01:19:09,020 - She had a really attractive sort of 1490 01:19:09,020 --> 01:19:11,022 conventionally attractive appearance 1491 01:19:12,195 --> 01:19:14,750 and obviously that's appealing to the press. 1492 01:19:16,061 --> 01:19:18,063 There was a certain amount about her boyfriends. 1493 01:19:18,063 --> 01:19:21,135 There was a certain amount about her broken marriage 1494 01:19:21,135 --> 01:19:24,829 and I think that 1495 01:19:24,829 --> 01:19:27,245 I'm afraid is par for the course. 1496 01:19:27,245 --> 01:19:29,523 Sadly, I'm not sure how much that's changed. 1497 01:19:30,973 --> 01:19:32,940 - I don't believe that there were any preconceived views 1498 01:19:32,940 --> 01:19:34,770 by the officers at the time. 1499 01:19:34,770 --> 01:19:36,668 I tried to put myself in their position. 1500 01:19:36,668 --> 01:19:40,189 The officers would've turned up to a horrendous scene. 1501 01:19:40,189 --> 01:19:44,227 They would've established at a pretty early point the nature 1502 01:19:44,227 --> 01:19:47,058 of the injuries that she received, that she was a nanny, 1503 01:19:48,162 --> 01:19:50,751 her having a boyfriend or boyfriends. 1504 01:19:50,751 --> 01:19:53,374 I don't think that was necessarily anything 1505 01:19:53,374 --> 01:19:54,928 that would've been then thinking 1506 01:19:54,928 --> 01:19:56,653 that had anything to do with it. 1507 01:19:56,653 --> 01:19:59,725 I genuinely think that those officers were steadfast in 1508 01:19:59,725 --> 01:20:01,935 their desire to establish the facts. 1509 01:20:01,935 --> 01:20:05,076 So I don't believe that that had any bearing whatsoever on 1510 01:20:05,076 --> 01:20:07,319 the mindset of those officers at that time. 1511 01:20:10,012 --> 01:20:11,945 - I think she'd have had a great time now. 1512 01:20:11,945 --> 01:20:15,741 For somebody like her who didn't settle, 1513 01:20:16,742 --> 01:20:21,817 which, you know it's not a crime 1514 01:20:23,025 --> 01:20:25,061 and she wouldn't have had to be a nanny in 1515 01:20:25,061 --> 01:20:27,856 that weird household, let's face it, 1516 01:20:27,857 --> 01:20:31,619 she'd be alive almost certainly. 1517 01:20:31,619 --> 01:20:34,174 [sombre music] 1518 01:21:17,838 --> 01:21:20,634 [dramatic music] 1519 01:21:28,366 --> 01:21:30,057 - After nearly 50 years, 1520 01:21:30,057 --> 01:21:33,888 my understanding is that this is still a cold case 1521 01:21:33,888 --> 01:21:35,751 for the Metropolitan Police Service. 1522 01:21:36,926 --> 01:21:38,755 This case would've been very frustrating 1523 01:21:38,755 --> 01:21:42,311 for those officers involved because initially, 1524 01:21:42,311 --> 01:21:44,934 and this is no disrespect to my colleagues, 1525 01:21:44,934 --> 01:21:48,282 they may have assumed that this was an open and shut case. 1526 01:21:48,282 --> 01:21:50,043 Everything pointed to Lord Lucan. 1527 01:21:51,596 --> 01:21:54,910 The problem for them is they were never ever able to speak 1528 01:21:54,910 --> 01:21:57,326 to him because he disappeared 1529 01:21:57,326 --> 01:21:59,535 and has never been seen for 50 years. 1530 01:22:01,571 --> 01:22:03,642 - There are all these unanswered questions, 1531 01:22:03,642 --> 01:22:05,713 but it may be that they're just unanswered questions 1532 01:22:05,713 --> 01:22:08,026 for YouTubers and podcasters. 1533 01:22:08,026 --> 01:22:11,098 And the fact is we still know who did it. 1534 01:22:11,098 --> 01:22:13,411 If I had to put forward a theory, I'd probably say Lucan 1535 01:22:13,411 --> 01:22:16,862 employed a hitman and that's why they got the wrong woman 1536 01:22:19,210 --> 01:22:21,729 and attacked Veronica in a panic. 1537 01:22:21,729 --> 01:22:23,766 But even that doesn't fit all the facts. 1538 01:22:25,112 --> 01:22:27,149 - We all have our views 1539 01:22:27,149 --> 01:22:31,636 and thoughts as to what may have happened to Lord Lucan. 1540 01:22:31,636 --> 01:22:35,364 From my perspective, there's nothing to suggest 1541 01:22:35,364 --> 01:22:37,711 that he committed suicide. 1542 01:22:37,711 --> 01:22:39,885 For me, it would suggest that 1543 01:22:39,885 --> 01:22:42,750 after the event somebody helped him 1544 01:22:42,750 --> 01:22:47,134 to possibly leave the country at some point in time. 1545 01:22:47,134 --> 01:22:50,103 It didn't have to be in the first 48, 72 hours. 1546 01:22:50,103 --> 01:22:52,760 It could be a week, two weeks after 1547 01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:56,592 and has probably been able to look after him 1548 01:22:56,592 --> 01:22:58,663 and support him over the years. 1549 01:22:58,663 --> 01:23:00,113 That is my own personal view. 1550 01:23:00,113 --> 01:23:02,632 I know other people may probably disagree, 1551 01:23:02,632 --> 01:23:06,843 but it seems too convenient for someone to have disappeared 1552 01:23:06,843 --> 01:23:09,570 after such a significant incident 1553 01:23:09,570 --> 01:23:13,504 and not be found for 50 years without having some help. 1554 01:23:14,851 --> 01:23:18,579 - I still don't believe Lord Lucan did it. 1555 01:23:18,579 --> 01:23:19,822 No way. 1556 01:23:19,822 --> 01:23:23,722 I don't see him hurting a fly. 1557 01:23:23,722 --> 01:23:26,553 I never allow myself to judge her. 1558 01:23:26,553 --> 01:23:31,040 They were both lost creatures in this world of madness. 1559 01:23:34,423 --> 01:23:36,735 [gentle music] 1560 01:23:36,735 --> 01:23:41,395 - The trouble with this story is so many hangers on 1561 01:23:41,395 --> 01:23:46,435 after the event were just saying the most unbelievable. 1562 01:23:47,608 --> 01:23:51,095 I still hear things from people who say, "Oh, 1563 01:23:51,095 --> 01:23:52,579 "Veronica did this." 1564 01:23:52,579 --> 01:23:57,549 or "Do you know Lucan was fed to a bunch of tigers?" 1565 01:23:58,412 --> 01:24:00,966 And it's all, it's a story 1566 01:24:00,966 --> 01:24:04,591 that breeds a lot of real nonsense. 1567 01:24:05,799 --> 01:24:07,145 - I've heard the stories 1568 01:24:07,145 --> 01:24:10,079 of Aspinall feeding Lucan into the tigers. 1569 01:24:10,079 --> 01:24:12,771 I would've believed it more if he'd fed him to pigs 1570 01:24:12,771 --> 01:24:14,670 'cause pigs will eat anything. 1571 01:24:14,670 --> 01:24:17,569 It's never really rung true with me. 1572 01:24:19,088 --> 01:24:22,056 Aspinall wasn't a close friend of his. 1573 01:24:22,056 --> 01:24:24,472 He didn't particularly like Lucan, 1574 01:24:24,473 --> 01:24:26,613 but Lucan was very useful to him 1575 01:24:26,613 --> 01:24:28,511 because he was seen 1576 01:24:28,511 --> 01:24:32,653 as an aristocratic playing member at the club, 1577 01:24:32,653 --> 01:24:36,278 an attraction to others to go to Aspinall's clubs. 1578 01:24:36,278 --> 01:24:39,074 I can think of no reason on earth that he would've gone 1579 01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:42,870 to the trouble of trying to feed, you know, 1580 01:24:42,870 --> 01:24:44,527 Lucan to the tigers. 1581 01:24:45,804 --> 01:24:47,012 What happened to him? 1582 01:24:47,875 --> 01:24:49,429 I don't believe he's dead. 1583 01:24:49,429 --> 01:24:53,640 He may by now have died of natural causes. 1584 01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:56,298 He will be 90 very soon. 1585 01:24:57,678 --> 01:25:01,958 But his father lived to a decent age. 1586 01:25:01,958 --> 01:25:06,894 So if you accept that he ran away that night and escaped, 1587 01:25:06,894 --> 01:25:11,934 then he may well still be out there. 1588 01:25:12,521 --> 01:25:14,109 But the family 1589 01:25:14,109 --> 01:25:17,353 and friends of his have tried very hard through the years 1590 01:25:17,353 --> 01:25:20,701 to suggest that he took the honourable course 1591 01:25:20,701 --> 01:25:22,151 and killed himself. 1592 01:25:22,151 --> 01:25:25,396 But I've never believed that for one moment, 1593 01:25:25,396 --> 01:25:28,985 it's very hard to kill yourself and hide your own body. 1594 01:25:30,539 --> 01:25:34,025 [suspenseful music] 1595 01:25:36,303 --> 01:25:39,271 - Veronica had a really tough time after all this. 1596 01:25:39,272 --> 01:25:41,343 She got these head wounds. 1597 01:25:41,343 --> 01:25:42,896 She was in hospital. 1598 01:25:42,896 --> 01:25:46,796 She sort of seemed to cut herself off. 1599 01:25:46,796 --> 01:25:51,767 Her life did start to sort of fall apart really. 1600 01:25:51,767 --> 01:25:55,702 She did in fact lose her children at the end of it all. 1601 01:25:55,702 --> 01:25:57,566 - [Interviewer] Are you going to start proceedings 1602 01:25:57,566 --> 01:26:00,810 to get your husband declared legally dead? 1603 01:26:00,810 --> 01:26:02,847 - No, I'm not. - Why not? 1604 01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:05,953 - Because I don't think he is. 1605 01:26:08,163 --> 01:26:09,750 - [Interviewer] Would it not make a difference to your life 1606 01:26:09,750 --> 01:26:11,166 if you did? 1607 01:26:11,166 --> 01:26:14,859 As far as the last seven years have shown me, 1608 01:26:14,859 --> 01:26:17,344 it would make absolutely no difference 1609 01:26:17,344 --> 01:26:19,381 to my life whatsoever. 1610 01:26:19,381 --> 01:26:22,522 Apart from doing something which I don't 1611 01:26:22,522 --> 01:26:24,248 really believe to be true. 1612 01:26:24,248 --> 01:26:25,835 - [Interviewer] Do you think you'll see him again? 1613 01:26:25,835 --> 01:26:27,285 - I always hope to, 1614 01:26:27,285 --> 01:26:29,977 but I have a feeling that I won't see him again. 1615 01:26:29,977 --> 01:26:31,324 I don't think he'll come back. 1616 01:26:31,324 --> 01:26:33,533 He'll have made another life for himself. 1617 01:26:35,397 --> 01:26:38,365 I always hope though, there's always a possibility. 1618 01:26:38,365 --> 01:26:40,160 - How has life changed for you? 1619 01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:41,782 What do you do from day to day? 1620 01:26:42,990 --> 01:26:47,271 - It's changed to one day is like another. 1621 01:26:47,271 --> 01:26:50,377 It's like being isolated. 1622 01:26:50,377 --> 01:26:52,034 It's worse than being in prison 1623 01:26:53,484 --> 01:26:58,040 because I haven't got any prison inmates with me to talk to. 1624 01:26:58,868 --> 01:27:00,180 I'm in solitary confinement 1625 01:27:01,561 --> 01:27:05,220 and I feel hostility from those that I knew before. 1626 01:27:05,220 --> 01:27:10,052 - She lived in the muse house behind Lower Belgrave Street. 1627 01:27:10,052 --> 01:27:13,814 And then she would occasionally say, "I still adore John." 1628 01:27:13,814 --> 01:27:15,954 As she called him, Lucan. 1629 01:27:15,954 --> 01:27:17,232 She kept his portrait. 1630 01:27:19,648 --> 01:27:23,341 She's very complicated, Veronica. 1631 01:27:23,341 --> 01:27:26,931 She deliberately went on television near the end 1632 01:27:26,931 --> 01:27:31,418 of her life and just to reassert her version of events, 1633 01:27:31,418 --> 01:27:34,835 [gentle music] 1634 01:27:34,835 --> 01:27:37,217 she was brilliant, absolutely brilliant 1635 01:27:38,563 --> 01:27:40,841 'cause I think it did worry her that people said, 1636 01:27:42,981 --> 01:27:46,502 you know, some of this evidence is a bit conflicting. 1637 01:27:46,502 --> 01:27:51,058 She did have friends, but she seemed still to be 1638 01:27:51,058 --> 01:27:54,786 very, I don't know if she was obsessed with Lucan, 1639 01:27:54,786 --> 01:27:56,374 but I think the idea of having married him, 1640 01:27:56,374 --> 01:27:57,996 I think that still pleased her. 1641 01:27:59,619 --> 01:28:02,415 I saw her near Buckingham Palace not that long 1642 01:28:02,415 --> 01:28:03,899 before she died actually. 1643 01:28:03,899 --> 01:28:07,040 And she looked very, you know, she was immaculate 1644 01:28:09,387 --> 01:28:12,079 like older ladies in the 1970s really. 1645 01:28:13,943 --> 01:28:15,635 She died in 2017. 1646 01:28:15,635 --> 01:28:19,432 It seems a very difficult life. 1647 01:28:21,641 --> 01:28:23,159 - Veronica said towards the end of her life, 1648 01:28:23,159 --> 01:28:25,714 her biggest fear was becoming dependent on others 1649 01:28:25,714 --> 01:28:28,579 and that she supported assisted suicide. 1650 01:28:28,579 --> 01:28:31,167 And I don't think it's any real surprise 1651 01:28:31,167 --> 01:28:34,688 that she was subsequently found dead in her own home. 1652 01:28:34,688 --> 01:28:38,692 And it was presumed that she had indeed taken her own life. 1653 01:28:38,692 --> 01:28:41,661 There is something really very pitiful 1654 01:28:41,661 --> 01:28:43,939 about the whole episode. 1655 01:28:45,837 --> 01:28:49,772 - She was quite a feisty lady who was able 1656 01:28:49,772 --> 01:28:51,084 to stick up for herself. 1657 01:28:52,499 --> 01:28:55,709 I met her many years after this all happened. 1658 01:28:57,573 --> 01:29:00,852 I went to her house and I spoke to her 1659 01:29:00,852 --> 01:29:04,200 and she invited me in knowing I was a journalist 1660 01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:05,995 or knowing as I was then an author. 1661 01:29:05,995 --> 01:29:08,550 I wanted to write a book about it. 1662 01:29:08,550 --> 01:29:10,136 So I introduced myself. 1663 01:29:10,136 --> 01:29:14,071 She invited me into a little tiny living room that she had 1664 01:29:14,072 --> 01:29:16,040 and she actually brought out tea 1665 01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:17,697 and we had a cup of tea together. 1666 01:29:19,112 --> 01:29:21,908 And she was pleasant and helpful 1667 01:29:21,908 --> 01:29:26,533 and she tried to paint Lord Lucan in quite a good light. 1668 01:29:26,533 --> 01:29:29,743 She wasn't desperately nasty about him at all. 1669 01:29:29,743 --> 01:29:34,058 And I went back the very next day, banged on the same door 1670 01:29:34,058 --> 01:29:38,200 and she opened the door and threw a cup of urine in over me 1671 01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:40,409 and started literally in the middle 1672 01:29:40,409 --> 01:29:43,481 of the street screaming I was gutter press 1673 01:29:43,481 --> 01:29:45,759 and I should F off. 1674 01:29:45,759 --> 01:29:49,211 And I told that story to Bill Shand Kydd, 1675 01:29:49,211 --> 01:29:52,870 who'd raised her children and knew her very well indeed. 1676 01:29:52,870 --> 01:29:55,976 And he said, "Oh, that was typical Veronica." 1677 01:29:59,428 --> 01:30:00,947 - I think what was very touching 1678 01:30:00,947 --> 01:30:03,294 and really in some ways typical of what we've got to know 1679 01:30:03,294 --> 01:30:07,850 of Veronica, that she was able to recognise that the tragedy 1680 01:30:07,850 --> 01:30:10,370 of their marriage and the discord in that marriage led 1681 01:30:10,370 --> 01:30:12,890 to the loss of Sandra Rivett's life 1682 01:30:12,890 --> 01:30:15,686 and how sorry she was about that. 1683 01:30:15,686 --> 01:30:17,998 And that there was nothing she could do about that, 1684 01:30:17,998 --> 01:30:21,864 but that she would never forget her or it. 1685 01:30:21,864 --> 01:30:26,869 And that really speaks to Veronica's humanity, her empathy, 1686 01:30:28,146 --> 01:30:32,357 and also to a sisterhood, if you like, almost, 1687 01:30:33,531 --> 01:30:37,121 with a fellow woman who hadn't had an easy path 1688 01:30:37,121 --> 01:30:40,296 and who'd got caught up in a psychodrama 1689 01:30:40,296 --> 01:30:42,920 that was really of none of her doing. 1690 01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:45,509 [gentle piano music] 1691 01:30:46,924 --> 01:30:50,583 - Sandra's sister described her in the newspapers. 1692 01:30:50,583 --> 01:30:52,895 She said she was fun-loving. 1693 01:30:52,895 --> 01:30:56,416 She was, you know, up for a laugh. 1694 01:30:56,416 --> 01:31:01,317 She was sociable, she was kind, thoughtful. 1695 01:31:02,387 --> 01:31:05,011 Just all the things that make you 1696 01:31:05,011 --> 01:31:09,498 think she was actually a lovely young woman. 1697 01:31:09,498 --> 01:31:14,365 And it it just very, very poignant tribute to her. 1698 01:31:19,750 --> 01:31:21,165 - John actually, 1699 01:31:21,165 --> 01:31:24,962 her last boyfriend said she was a really good girl. 1700 01:31:24,962 --> 01:31:27,447 He actually was deeply one of the most touching bits 1701 01:31:27,447 --> 01:31:29,622 of the case, but never gets heard. 1702 01:31:29,622 --> 01:31:31,209 She was a lovely lass. 1703 01:31:31,209 --> 01:31:33,833 She might have had a rather lovely future 1704 01:31:33,833 --> 01:31:35,766 after a bit of a questionable start in life. 1705 01:31:35,766 --> 01:31:36,629 Poor girl. 1706 01:31:39,528 --> 01:31:42,462 - John Hankins talked to the papers quite a lot 1707 01:31:42,462 --> 01:31:44,706 after it all happened. 1708 01:31:44,706 --> 01:31:47,467 He gave the impression that they might have gone 1709 01:31:47,467 --> 01:31:51,091 to Australia, they might have had a happy life together. 1710 01:31:55,579 --> 01:31:58,582 - She was a lovely girl, lovely nature. 1711 01:31:59,928 --> 01:32:02,309 And it's sad really 'cause she didn't deserve that, 1712 01:32:03,448 --> 01:32:05,002 didn't have a bad bone in her at all. 1713 01:32:12,906 --> 01:32:15,530 [bright music] 1714 01:32:19,464 --> 01:32:22,191 - I think it's so often the case when we report 1715 01:32:22,191 --> 01:32:25,988 or record crime, the victim gets overlooked 1716 01:32:25,988 --> 01:32:27,783 time and time again. 1717 01:32:27,783 --> 01:32:31,131 And when we refer to the case of Lord Lucan, 1718 01:32:31,131 --> 01:32:34,894 can we please put before his name, 1719 01:32:34,894 --> 01:32:38,725 the name of the victim of the murder. 1720 01:32:38,725 --> 01:32:41,245 She was called Sandra Rivett, 1721 01:32:41,245 --> 01:32:42,833 and she lost her life on 1722 01:32:42,833 --> 01:32:46,733 that night in a basement in London in 1974. 1723 01:32:47,631 --> 01:32:49,494 The innocent victim of the case. 1724 01:32:51,324 --> 01:32:53,947 [bright music] 1725 01:33:14,968 --> 01:33:18,420 [bright music continues] 1726 01:33:28,016 --> 01:33:31,051 [bright music ends] 129458

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