All language subtitles for Mr.Bates.vs.The.Post.Office.S01E03.Episode.3.1080p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP5.1.H.264-FLUX

Sorry, Martin, I hit every red
light
on the way here, mate.

- You get later every day.
- Oh, come on.

You don't get no more cheerful, pal.

- I just need to get home.
- Ah, we all do, mate.

- Long day?
- They're all long days.

Any specials with these?

Giro pouch.

Cheque pouch.

- I'll have to come back for
them.
- Yeah.

Oh, God...

Aarrgghh...!

Please! No! No!

No!

Don't do it!

Stay there! Don't look at me!

Come on! Come on!

Come on, hurry up!

- Please!
- Hurry up!

- Go, go, go, go!
- Come on, now!

Argh!

Martin...

let's talk about what happened.

The total losses to Post Office
funds
that day were...

£54,354.96.

The police were there in five
minutes.
They got most of it back.

This is a culpability interview,
Martin.

You had the parcel hatch open,
and the safe.

In accordance with section 12,
paragraph 18

of the subpostmasters'
contract...

Martin?

...you're to take reasonable
precautions
to safeguard official cash and
property.

You are therefore contractually
liable
for an amount of...

£7,500?

So now the armed robbery
is our fault, too.

It wasn't the robbery
that got me sacked.

Sacked?

What?!

I'm already under investigation
for the Horizon shortfalls,

and now the robbery.

Three months' notice.

Oh, Martin...!

For four years of, every day,
opening that door, waiting
for...

For what?

For the day to end.

"Terminated for continued
poor accounting performance,

"not operating
individual stock units
correctly,

"failure to make good losses
in a timely manner."

They're just going on

and on about the contract
and blaming Martin for
everything,

never accepting it's Horizon's
fault.

How big did the shortfalls get?

£61,000 altogether.

They've had our savings already.

And our parents'.

Alan, we've nothing left to
give.

- OK.
-Wow!

Every time we meet,
there's more of us.

- Those are vegetarian ones.
- Thank you.

And we're always ravenous.

- Have we eaten Alan?

That phone is a full-time job.

And the effect it had on the
family was...

I mean, not just me and Lisa,
but, you know, the kids, we...

I mean, we had to move the
schools
cos of the bullying.

And...

then our daughter, Millie-Jo,
she hit her teens and...

...just stopped eating.

It was anorexia.

And they say don't blame
yourselves.
But you do.

- Yeah, of course you do.
- And nobody understands, do
they?

Jo's always been very kind to
us,
hasn't she?

- We call her "Mum".
- Yeah.

- If she's Mum, what's Alan?
- Dad?

We don't call him Dad!

Alan's the godfather.

Shall we, er, crack on?

Yep.
The don has spoken.

Are you all right?

The thing is, Alan, erm...

I'm not sure my computer
was really the problem.

I just had endless power cuts.

36 of them in one day.

If you get a power cut
in the middle of a transaction,
poof!

No wonder it comes out wrong.

You see, erm, my husband died...

...and I took over.

It was just before
Horizon was installed.

But then they didn't put
the new electricity lines in
properly, you see.

Oh, Pam, really?

Doesn't it just go to show
how absolutely bloody useless

they can be about
the simplest bloody things?

I told them when they closed me
down,
I said...

..."If you can prove
that I stole that money,

"then send the police round,
send them now."

Since then, I have not slept.

And I've been scared
every waking moment,

expecting that knock on the
door.

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

You've got nothing
to be sorry for, Pam.

I'm just so...

I'm just so angry.

I hate being so angry!

If I ever say
I'm going to give this up...

...remind me about people like
Pam.

So...

to, er, to recap.

My chat with Paula Vennells

has resulted in a new
investigation
and mediation scheme

which will allow all of us to
apply
for the compensation we deserve.

Even people like me and Jo?

Yeah, Alan's got their
commitment here
in black and white.

The Post Office says...

you may put your case
through the mediation scheme,

even if you've already received
a police caution

or been subject
to a criminal prosecution or
conviction.

- If we got our money back...
- And our good names.

An apology, even.

Oooh, steady on.

Or just getting to the truth.

So, with your agreement,

Kay and I will defend your
interests
every step of the way.

We will look into each
individual case
and fight our corner.

I know, but, Alan...

do you trust them?

I mean, do we trust them, really?

Well...

...they're putting money
and effort into it,

and it's coming from the top,
so...

Well, it...

It's got to be worth a try.

Shall we have a vote?

All those in favour?

Great.

42 pence change.

- Six first-class stamps,
please.
- There you go.

£3.60.

Sorry?

£3.60.

For a long time, he suspected
the staff,

you know, of stealing from the
tills.

The bad feeling that's still
causing.

But if it wasn't them,
then it had to be his fault,

like he's stupid, which he
isn't.

That was before,
before we knew about the Horizon
thing.

Can I talk to him?

Well, he won't talk to me about
it,
even now.

It drives me mad.

I know he's got depression.

He's a proud father,
and I think he thinks he's
failed us.

Failed our family.

Gina...

...put him on.

Love...

It's Alan Bates.

He wants to talk to you.

Please, Martin.

Martin?

Yes.

Listen, Martin...

...you're not alone.

There's a lot of us, and...

there's a new scheme
you can apply for.

I'm going to send you the forms.

Martin, you might get
some of your money back.

Yeah, erm...

I can't talk to you right now.

Ma...

People are trying to help

here!

I'm so sorry. Erm...

- He's just...
- It's OK, Gina.

I'll send you the forms.

But get him to apply.

It's important.

I'll try.

Bloody traffic.

- Hi.
- Oh, hi.

I'm a little late for a meeting
with Susan Crichton.

Bob, good to see you.

Susan's left us.

Why?

New times, new opportunities.

Moving forward,
I'll be your main point of
contact.

This is Susan Crichton.
I have left the Post Office.

Thank you for not leaving a
message.

Bob...

...we need to talk.

I'm not bloody signing up
to this nonsense.

The Post Office want me to stay
on,
but it's pointless.

They've unilaterally
taken away our access

to the legal and prosecution
files.

I can't investigate in a
blindfold
with both hands tied behind my
back.

Alan, professionally,
I just can't do it.

Bob, grit your teeth.

We can't do this without you.

- I don't know why you're doing
it at all.
- You do know why.

We have to go to mediation
because we can't afford to go to
law.

You're an idiot to trust them,
Alan.

I think they're mostly
just a bunch of lying bastards.

And I think they're wasting
your time and mine.

Bob, if you walk away now,

you'll never find out
which of those bastards is
lying,

what they knew and when.

And...

you'll never find out
what happens at the end of the
story.

- We must both be mad.
- We are.

Pint?

Big day tomorrow.

Your appeal against dismissal.

Martin...?

Why don't I run you a bath?
It'll relax you.

I'm all right. I'm OK, I'm OK.

Please let me wash these
clothes,
you've been wearing them for
days.

- Don't you wanna wash your
hair, love?
- No. Stop.

- For tomorrow!
- Gina...

It's a big day.

- All I'm saying is we could
just...
- Gina, Gina...

- ...make a little bit of an
effort to look nice.
- Please...

Gina, leave me alone, please.

OK.

We've been over this.

A parcel hatch is about that
big.
Then you've got a sack of mail,
which is...

You know how big
a sack of mail is, yeah?

Once they were in with weapons,
even if the safe was closed,

what would you do if they
threatened you
and said, "Open the safe!"?

I hope you're having a fabulous
morning.

The time is now coming up to
06:20am,
and it's time for a little
traffic update.

It looks like there's congestion
on the M62,

and it's building up
to the Runcorn turn-off.

- Martin?

You're off early, love.

Sorry.

- Morning.
- Where is he?

- We don't know.
- Martin?

It's not working.

I know it's not the other one.
It's...

Are you Mrs Griffiths?

- Can we have a word in private?
- No...

Yes.

OK.

No, I...

Mm.

Of course.

Thanks for letting me know.

He never regained consciousness.

Oh, God...

Gina's had to agree
to switch off life support.

Oh, Alan!

Blood on their hands now.

He had kids, Lee.

I know.

I expect he thought
he was doing them a favour.

- Are you doing it ever?
- No, no.

No, not really.

Sorry.

Sorry.

I won't think about it.
Look, I'm sorry.

Don't you...
Don't you ever do that!

I can't have you

feeling bad about this
for the rest of your life.

I could have just walked away.

I could have...
I could have just shut the
shop...

...and just put us on a slow boat
to China.

I could have done that.

And they'd have chased us
all the way to China for that
money, Lee.

They were never gonna let go.

Hey...

I know you did it for us.

I can't think straight.

I don't know what to do.

It's really very good of you to
come.

We're all so sorry for your
loss.

It was four days
before his notice ran out,

and he still hadn't told the
staff
he'd been sacked.

Yes, it's very hard.

And his appeal...

against being fined for the
robbery,
it didn't come to anything.

They didn't decide
one way or the other.

Stressful, obviously.

I used to get so cross with him,
Angela.

I never did understand the
problem.
And he couldn't explain it.

Just every morning going to work
and saying he was desperate.

He was really desperate!

Every morning, the same words.

"I hate it."

"I can't bear it."

For years.

Can you imagine?

We, er...

We're going to do right by you,
Gina.

You can rely on us.

Yeah.

So, as we launch this mediation
scheme,

I can confirm our agreement

that Martin Griffiths' case will
be dealt with
as a priority by this working
group.

Now, you've also received
a request from the family

that any approaches to Gina
should come through me.

Yes.
Yes, we are happy to agree to
this, too.

Shall we declare this mediation
scheme
up and running?

Yes.

We have a long list of cases to
examine.
So, let's get started.

Right, then, start with Martin.

First things first...

...Mr Griffiths.

Profits falling, Mrs Vennells.

Government subsidy on its way
out.

That means a reckoning
is on the horizon, does it not?

It does, absolutely.

And the whole point
about this investment programme

is to make sure we have models
that are commercially
sustainable.

- And my ambition would be...
- Yes.

- ...that within three to four
years' time....
- Horizon.

...the Post Office doesn't need
to take taxpayers' money

to support those post offices
that can be commercially
profitable.

So, Paula,
if you don't mind me asking,

- you're CEO of the Post
Office...
- Ask her about Horizon.

...but you're also a priest
in the Church of England.

How do you combine those two
roles?

Very good, thank you.

- Good to see you.
- Thank you very much.

Just one thing.
This, erm, Horizon business.

- Anything in it?
- I beg your pardon?

Horizon.

Some lurid allegations out
there.

Well, er...

Well, after two-and-a-half years
of investigations,

it is now clear
that the Horizon system is
robust

and works as it should.

Thank you.

And God said to Solomon,

"Ask for whatever
you want me to give you."

And Solomon said...

..."Give your servant a
discerning heart
to govern your people

"and to distinguish
between right and wrong."

The Lord was pleased
that Solomon had asked for this.

So God said to him,

"I will do what you have asked.

"I will give you
a wise and discerning heart."

I've been preparing for
this
mediation hearing for months.

You will remember
that I asked to see this data,

the ARQ data from your system,

so that I could see
if it matched up to my data

from my till in my branch.

I've kept everything, you see.

Now, you told me
I wouldn't be capable

of interpreting the ARQ data

because I was a silly woman
or something.

Anyway, may I direct you
to page seven?

Now, you will clearly see
a two-hour period

when money alterations
were being put in...

...but not by me,
because I was serving customers.

There is no functionality
in the Horizon system

to remotely access branch
terminals.

I...

- I just proved there is!

Mrs Stubbs,
we have to tell you now that,

at this mediation meeting,

we are under no legal
or moral obligation

to do anything whatsoever.

And we are working on
the principle of the contract,

which says that if you lose
money,
you repay it.

Well...

I'm finished with this, actually.

I'm finished with you.

See, I think you're lying to me.

- Mrs Stubbs, calm...
- And I know you're patronising
me.

And I'm going to tell the whole
world
what you are like.

May I remind you that you have
signed
a non-disclosure agreement?

I'll talk to anyone who will
listen.

I'll stand up with all my
papers,

and I will prove you lied about
this.

Mrs Stubbs, this will
have legal ramifications...

Oh, you want to take me to
court?

I couldn't give a toss!

The way they treat people!

They are despicable!

I have never, ever
been made to feel like this...

- ...in my entire life.

Pam?

Pam?

- You're breaking up.

I mean, are they lying or...

or just stupid?

Hello?

For a while there,
right at the start of
mediation...

...you got close to trusting
them,
didn't you?

Maybe.

Despite every awful story
they've heard,

despite all the work we've
done...

...they still don't get it.

They actually believe they're
right.

ARBUTHNOT:
I understand your impatience.

Of course I do.
But, Alan, really...

four closely typed pages of
complaint?

"Finding the truth
is the last thing they're
interested in."

Well...

that's been our experience
of their investigation.

Well, will you at least
acknowledge that,
before writing to the Minister,

it might possibly have been
useful
to raise your concerns with
Paula?

Martin Griffiths is dead.

Yes, I know.

I, too, am concerned

about the length of time
mediation is taking.

But Paula is very exercised.

I'm sorry, James, but...

these mediation hearings are a
joke.

Well, let's just ask
Paula
about that, shall we?

No, we have not dragged our
feet.

I've had 22 people working on
this,
full-time, for more than a year.

But not a single case finalised.

And now I am told that people
are walking out of their
mediation meetings.

Yes, it has taken longer
than we would've liked.

As Chief Executive of the Post
Office,

I could not put this scheme in
place
and not do it properly.

The system...

and the people who work in our
branches,
are too important for that.

Well...

at least we can agree on that
one.

Let's be clear,
we still have allegations here

of miscarriage of justice.

Our lawyers advise the correct
route
for challenges to criminal
prosecutions

is via
the Criminal Cases Review
Commission...

Hold on. Hold on.
- ...to the Appeal Court.

- No, you made promises, Paula.
- You promised me personally

that my constituent, Jo
Hamilton,

whom I believe was wrongly
convicted
and with whom all of this
started,

would be eligible for mediation.

Our lawyers advise that
no mediation scheme

has the power to overturn
a criminal conviction.

Paula, this is quite wrong.

You have broken your word to me.

And you have broken your word
to the subpostmasters.

You have broken your word
to Parliament.

The Post Office has broken its
word

to Members of Parliament
in so many different respects.

It may, of course, be that
the trade of subpostmastering

was infiltrated
by a sudden rash of criminals.

I have met a lot of these
people,
and I personally do not believe
it.

Frankly, I no longer trust
the Post Office,

and will not be negotiating
with it further.

It has spent public money
on a mediation scheme

that it has set out to sabotage.

He says he can get some interest
from the Select Committee.

Oh, not another talking shop.

Personally,
I'm looking forward to it.

Probably more than Paula.

Is it possible
to access the system remotely or
not?

I hope it is that we know
it is not possible,

and that we're able to explain
why that is.

I need to be able to say,
"No, it is not possible,

"and we're sure of this
because of X, X, X."

I need the facts.

That's Paula.

She looks very smart.

Very corporate.

Who's the other one?

Angela van den Bogerd.

The gruesome twosome.

Don't they have any blokes
at the Post Office?

I have spent a lot
of the past 12 months...

Yes! Come on, Bob.

...requesting access to documents
that have been challenged.

One issue we're looking into
relates to Fujitsu's office in
Bracknell.

Now, we first requested
documents
relating to that almost two
years ago,

and we have still not been
provided
with those documents.

Erm, may I respond?

We did provide
a year's worth of emails

that Second Sight requested.

Er, unfortunately,
those emails that were provided

were for the wrong year.

That seems to me an amazing
error.

Are there any other issues?

Probably most important
would be full access

to the legal and prosecution
files
held by the Post Office.

Paula, why don't you
make those files available?

What's the problem?

- The point I want to pick up
first, if I may...
- No, no.

Answer my question.

Er, it is the first time,
personally,
that I've heard that.

I'm happy to go away
and have a look.

They've been told that
under no circumstances

could they be given those files.

- Is that right or wrong?
- I...

I do not recall that, no.

And you can piss right off.

That sounds to me like a
shambles.

We are hearing from Bob

that your organisation
has been obstructive

to his independent work.

Is that right or wrong?

We have provided,
for every single case,

detailed, thorough,
independent investigation.

Let me stop you there.

We've just heard from Bob,
who is independent,

that you have not.

You are the head of the
organisation.

Will you provide the
information,
yes or no?

This is the first time that
I have been asked for this
information.

- Yes or no?
- I am not aware...

Will you provide it, yes or no?

- Give me a simple answer.
- Yes or no?

I am not prepared,
on behalf of the Post Office, to
give...

Right, I think I've got my
answer.
You won't provide it.

No, you have not got your
answer.
You have not heard a yes or no.

I am simply saying, at the
moment,

- I am not able to answer your
question.
- Honestly, I find it quite
astonishing

that you don't seem to know
anything

about an issue
that is so politically and
socially sensitive.

I know a huge amount about this.
I know the really important
things.

You are the Chief Executive,
so the buck stops with you.

It does stop with me.

I am not denying at all
that there are problems.

Of course there are.
There are problems in any
organisation.

But this is about the reputation
of the Post Office.

What?!

No, it's not!
It's about people's lives, you
moron!

Slaughtered her.

Paula's face.
She had no idea what just
happened.

Gina Griffiths has pulled out
of the mediation scheme.

- Well, that can't be right.
- Alan would've known that.

Unless they went to her
behind our backs.

What kind of people go back on a
promise
to a grieving widow?

It's not a huge amount of money.

Not, you know, life-changing.

And in return,
you had to pull out of
mediation.

I've got nothing coming in,
Alan.

I was gonna have to sell the
house
just to live.

I imagine they also got you to
sign
a non-disclosure agreement...

...promising not to talk to
anyone
about Martin's case.

I shouldn't even be speaking to
you.

They rang up, Alan.
They said it was a one-day
offer.

If I didn't say yes
by the end of the day, then...

I'm sorry.

It's all right, really.

I understand.

Well...

...I don't blame you.

When Angela came to see me...

Angela van den Bogerd came here?

She was nice...

I thought.

Kind.

Now I don't know about any of
them.

I think you just...

We just...

cling to a notion, don't we...

...that people can't be that bad?

Alan?

- Hello, Angela.
- Oh, good news.

No more reports for Bob to
write.

No more need for you
to trail down to London. No
more...

working group meetings.
A new way forward.

You're closing down
the mediation scheme.

No, no, no.

No, no, not closing it down.
We're...

simplifying it.

We're taking it in-house.

We'll decide each case
individually.

Closing it down.

After 18 months,
it's in everyone's interest

to speed things along now,
don't you think?

Well, if that's what you want to
do.

Oh.

Right.

Well, good to talk.

- Bye, Alan.
- Goodbye, Angela.

Oh, you sods.

Suzanne...?

I'm calling to tell you

that I'm not allowed
to talk to you any more.

Sacked again, eh?
That was quick.

Well, I considered pointing out
that they're not allowed

to just kick you and me
off the working group.

Well, they're not allowed
to go around ruining people's
lives

- or breaking their promises.

But since when
did that ever stop them?

They are not just dropping us,
Alan.
They're rubbing our noses in it.

They're making us destroy or
return

every, single document they gave
us.

The whole investigation...

three years' work up in smoke.

I'm so sorry, Alan.

Nice knowing you, Bob.

Yeah.

Goodbye, Alan.

Cheers.

Love?

Oh, there you are.

They're going ahead,
without me, without Bob,

without anyone fighting
our members' corner.

I did look at paint charts,
but...

in the end, I think I just want
white.

I'll get it done this weekend,
erm...

Help take my mind off it.

You what?

Yeah, so, erm...

...the test came back positive.

Hardly time to catch a cold, is
there...

let alone get cancer?

You'll outlive me.

Yeah.

They'll operate.

It'll be fine. I'll live.

I want to live.

I have to.

See some bastards go to prison.

I'll put the kettle on.

Mm.

Still here, then?

Tough, old bird.

I've, er...

- I've been thinking.
- Oh, God...!

No, no.

If we can't find a lawyer by,
I don't know, December...

...maybe it's time to call it a
day.

You once said to me,
"If I ever start talking about
giving up..."

That was then.

Don't you dare give up
on account of me, Alan.

Well, I'm not.

It's just, you know...

...12 years is...

long enough to keep banging my
head
against a brick wall.

Don't you dare!

Cos that would mean the last 12
years
of my life meant nothing, too.

OK.

New plan, then.

Oh, well, maybe you could've
fought me
a bit harder there.

What about if we all apply,
all of us,

to see everything
the Post Office has got on us?

Horizon logs, investigation
reports,
accounts, all of it.

And, er...

And then, if we can see them,
I think we've got a much better
chance...

You have a lovely day.

And don't dawdle
when Mummy comes to pick you up.

Are you gonna come in and help?

No, darling, not today.

Bye-bye, Joshua.

Granny Jo loves you.

Bye-bye.

You were only gonna be helping
them
make paper hats.

Yeah, it's not the school's
fault.

They can't let me be alone with
the children
when they know I've got a
criminal record.

Oh, God...

- Come on.
- Mum, will you stop it?

- This all right?
- Yeah.

It's fine.

I love a toast-based meal.

Are you all right?

Yeah.

Never was any good to me, was
it,
all that defective equipment?

Never did manage
to pop any babies out of it.

And, you know...

when you think about
the life we ended up having...

...maybe it's OK
the children never came along.

I'm here, sorry.

Oh, I think this might be
what I've been waiting for.

- Exciting.
- Signature there, please.

Cheers.

Do they think we're idiots or
what?

146 pages blacked out.
It's ridiculous!

Can you make any sense of, er...

...exactly what's been redacted?

No, I can't tell, it's all
black.

But I'll tell you
what's definitely not there.

The memo from my investigator.

The one where he admitted
there's no evidence against me.

The one that proves
it's a miscarriage of justice.

Ridiculous.

The
subpostmasters
applied to see this information,

as is their right,

and the Post Office think
they can just refuse to share
it.

It's simply inexplicable.

What the Post Office is saying
is this.

That there have been about
half a million users of the
Horizon system,

since it was introduced in 2001,
involved in Post Office
business,

and that only 150 people
have applied to the mediation
scheme

for events spanning
more than a decade.

The Post Office is saying

that the idea that there is
widespread unfairness is simply
not true.

Well, I would disagree.

These are people
who have been pillars of the
community,

who've had their reputations
dragged through the mud,

who've been sent to prison,
some of them,

and I understand that at least
one
has committed suicide.

And, Mrs Hamilton...

you believe that
you have done nothing wrong?

I have done nothing wrong.

I did not take a penny
from the Post Office,

but, unfortunately,
the contract which runs for 114
pages...

Excuse me,
could you just turn the radio
up?

Thanks.

...which many of us in
the Justice For Subpostmasters
Alliance

didn't receive a copy of,
says quite clearly

the postmaster is contractually
responsible
for the losses.

That's great.

We did ask the Post Office for
an interview.

No-one was available.

Alan Bates.

Hi, Alan.

My name's James Hartley.
I'm a solicitor.

Yeah, I just heard the Radio 4
piece.

I... I think I can help.

I always say to lawyers,

we're fighting a war against an
enemy
owned by the British government,

which means they have mighty
forces

and bottomless pockets
funded by the taxpayer.

While we're just...

skint little people.

Well, er...

I specialise in contract law.

And this contract is...

...114 pages of complete rubbish.

I only got the two-page version.

It's unfair.

It's out of date.

It even says you're not allowed
to gamble
on the premises.

Yeah, when we've got
Lottery terminals, yeah.

But, you know, we all signed it,
or some version of it, so...

Well, yes, but...

a contract that is not properly
understood
by both parties

is not necessarily legally
binding.

OK.

Look...

I think it may be possible
to raise the money

to fight them in court.

There are specialist funders

who are willing to take the
risk,

but only if there are enough of
you.

We had 130 applicants
to the mediation scheme

before the Post Office destroyed
it.
Mm...

Well, how many would you need?

At least 500.

Well...

I can do that.

Hello?

-Is that Alan Bates?
- Yeah.

Who's this?

I worked at Fujitsu
in technical support.

- I was gonna call you...

- ...but I wanted to make sure
you...

Hang on, hang on.
You're breaking up.

I'm going to pull over.

Hello?

- Hello?

- Sorry, I got cut off.
- No, no.

I... I lost you.

I don't want anyone knowing
I'm talking to you.

Of course.

I understand.

But they're lying.

That's the point.

They say there's no remote
access
to branch accounts,

but there was a whole room
full of us inside Fujitsu,

working overnights,
doing thousands of corrections

on Horizon
while the postmasters slept.

Nobody's gonna admit it,
obviously.

Are you still there?

Yes. Sorry.

Er, just getting comfortable.

Please, go on.

We were just constantly
firefighting.

Coding errors, bugs,
data corruption.

Horizon was much worse
than I thought.

It was shocking.
It needed scrapping, really.

It was hard-coded and
hard-designed
for a completely...