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The Con Queen article
had gotten a lot of attention.
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But people were still
being lured to Indonesia
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{\an8}and more people were being impersonated.
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Over the course of the investigation,
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I spoke to over four-hundred people
who were victims.
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So, we learned that he was
running this scam for almost ten years.
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And it honestly took ten years
before anybody did anything,
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so he had an MO that he was using
and it was working for him
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and nobody was stopping him.
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We work on a fair amount of cases
where there is an impersonation aspect
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that facilitates a scam, but this really
just felt different from the beginning.
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In a lot of cases, the con artist
picks a mark, targets them for money,
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gets the money,
and then tosses the victim aside.
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And that's not what happens here.
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When I was talking to victims, I never saw
two approaches that looked the same.
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And that was something
that was really unique about this
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is everyone's story had a little quirk,
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a new addition to, you know,
the psychological aspect of it
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and what he would put people through.
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The first time I heard from somebody
who had confronted him
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and the conversation continued,
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I was really surprised.
But then, it just kept happening.
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And so, I don't know
if that was a psychological thing
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to just turn the screws
one last time on people, or what,
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but it didn't make logical sense
from a scam-running perspective.
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The victims all,
independently of each other,
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come up with the same
kind of language to describe him.
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And that language is,
"psychological torture",
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you know, a kind of "psychological abuse".
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{\an8}No.
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I definitely think he was consciously
toying with people, for sure.
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They were put in a puzzle
and he would watch them squirm.
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So, for instance, he did
a very bizarre thing with this victim,
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he told them to watch The Truman Show.
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And that really jumped out at me,
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because The Truman Show
is sort of a perfect metaphor
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for what he was doing to his victims.
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Which was creating
an entire elaborate artifice,
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and then placing his victims
inside the artifice
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for the viewing pleasure of himself.
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It's almost like a God who creates a world
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and then allows his creations
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to contemplate the possibility
of awareness of their creator.
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And says, "Ha-ha,
look at what I'm doing to you.
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Is this gonna be enough for you
to kind of wake up?"
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I was really fascinated
with the psychology of it.
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I had a pretty good sense
that he was a lone operator,
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that he was the mastermind of the scam.
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I had some basic biographical information.
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I knew that his real name
was Hargobind Tahilramani,
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that he went by, "Harvey" as a kid,
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and that now that he was in London
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{\an8}operating an Instagram account,
he went by the name "Gavin".
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I think Purebytes was, perhaps, a way out.
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A way to restart his life
after he left Indonesia.
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Oh, my God!
We're on top of the world. Let's explore.
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Then you have to wonder,
"Well, to what end?"
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Was it because he wanted to be successful
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and have a legitimate
social media presence,
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that would give his life
substance and meaning?
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Or was it to build
the social media side up
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so that he could use it
for some nefarious purpose?
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{\an8}I'm fascinated by the fact that I could do
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{\an8}anything and everything
I put my heart into.
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{\an8}And you can, too.
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I was working at a restaurant
called Goodman, it was a steakhouse.
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{\an8}And I was working there
for about six years when I met Gavin.
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We got to know him pretty quickly
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because he was always
a little bit problematic.
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We could never cook
a steak correctly for him
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and he'd go as far
as putting it in his mouth,
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chewing it, spitting it out,
putting it on a linen napkin
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and handing it to you to say,
"This isn't correct, Julian".
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The strange thing was, you didn't
have to do anything to the bill for him,
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he was always happy to pay.
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He made it very clear with the staff
that he was an Instagram food influencer.
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And at the restaurant,
he'd photograph the food sometimes...
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We're here right now
at Goodman's Steakhouse.
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Fabulous steak
and fabulous people. Come on.
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Eventually, after getting to know him
is when he started to follow my Instagram.
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So then I had resigned from the restaurant
and I get a message from him.
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"Hi, Julian. I have some ideas.
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I think that I could do with your services
for my Purebytes account.
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Would you like to meet to discuss?"
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So, I meet him in a coffee shop
and he tells me,
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"Essentially, what the job will be,
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is I go to lunch, I go to restaurants,
you come with me,
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photograph everything
for my Instagram account.
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That's going to make it look a little bit
more professional and I pay you.
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I employ you.
It's a Monday to Friday gig."
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And I said, "Okay, cool.
That sounds feasible.
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Let's see what happens."
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And he says, "Okay, film me."
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But I made it clear to him that I was fine
with the photography side of things
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but I was certainly not a trained
or skilled videographer,
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but we can do our best. And he said,
"I don't even care. Just film me."
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- Action.
- I'm right here in Chinatown
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and my good friend, Sir Julian...
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Yes, sir. Yes, sir...
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Decided for me to get this specialty.
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This is the special fish-shaped custard.
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Around about 2 p.m., he said,
"I've really gotta make a phone call."
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And I went, "Okay, cool."
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00:09:09,633 --> 00:09:12,052
And then he kind of said to me,
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"No, you need to leave.
Like, go away! Disappear."
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Gavin always had a little bit
of an underlying distraction going on.
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He'd say, "I haven't slept."
And you know, "I've been up all night."
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Between what he was doing for Purebytes
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and the facilitation of the scam,
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he must've been on the phone all day.
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And he called people all hours of the day.
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{\an8}It would be four in the morning, UK time,
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{\an8}and he's having a conversation
with this person who's in Indonesia.
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00:09:48,338 --> 00:09:52,843
{\an8}And on the same day,
he would be talking to somebody in LA,
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{\an8}who just bought a plane ticket.
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{\an8}So, he definitely had people
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in different phases of the scam
at the same time.
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I found out from sources
that he was calling about 50 people a day
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to gauge their suitability
as possible marks.
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And he would keep notes
on all of his victims
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in the Gmail drafts folder.
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It's a skill set, really,
to be able to keep the symphony playing
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00:10:24,166 --> 00:10:26,752
and here he was in real life
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keeping track of the various stories
he would tell about himself.
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He started to openly talk about being
a producer working in the film industry
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and then eventually he started to mention
that he was working for Netflix.
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There were references all over his page
to working for Netflix,
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00:10:48,649 --> 00:10:52,402
so he would invent
entire interactions and jobs
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00:10:52,402 --> 00:10:55,155
that he was supposedly working on.
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00:10:55,906 --> 00:11:01,870
Which speaks to a very deliberate,
well-organized plan to deceive people.
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It's almost like he couldn't control it
or something.
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It just kept happening again,
and again, and again.
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That's it. Good.
And now, look off to the left.
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That's it.
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As a photographer,
I am known for taking portraits, mainly.
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Often, celebrities...
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00:11:38,115 --> 00:11:40,742
...but also chef portraits,
so people in the food industry.
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Gavin Ambani, he wrote me an email.
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{\an8}He said that he got in touch with me
because Itamar and Sarit,
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{\an8}two very well-respected chefs,
recommended me.
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And he said he wanted
some portraits done for Instagram.
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I replied to him and said, "It's
not really something that interests me
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and you might want to try someone else."
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Then he got back in touch and said
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he was the son
of the Ambani family in India,
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{\an8}which is a big, influential family.
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And he'd be willing to pay anything
I wanted for me to take the portrait.
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So, pretty much straightaway
we had two shoots planned.
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The first shoot we did
was with two chefs, Itamar and Sarit.
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My idea then was to have
this scenario of breaking bread.
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I got the sense that that was
something very special for him.
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At the end of the shoot,
I talked to Itamar and Sarit.
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I said, "Well, you know,
you recommended him."
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And I think I thanked them for it.
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And they said,
"Well, I don't really know him that well."
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Itamar said, you know,
"I've only talked to him once or twice
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and Sarit's never talked to him."
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But to some degree,
he's done what an influencer does,
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they exaggerate their position a bit.
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The idea behind the second shoot
was to shoot him at a high-end tea room.
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I remember on the day of that shoot
that he was stressed.
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He was on his phone a lot.
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I just thought, "Well,
it could be a stressful day at work."
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And as soon as I asked him
to focus on the camera,
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he switched and
he was exactly how I wanted him to be.
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At the end,
when we were packing up, he said,
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"Get the invoices through and
we'll pay you, you know, straightaway."
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Gavin said he's got an auntie in Hollywood
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that works for the family
as an accountant.
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So, I made up the invoice to her
and sent it
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and got a reply from her.
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He was very insistent.
Constantly going, you know,
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"You gotta make sure that you get paid.
Have you been paid yet?"
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00:14:01,091 --> 00:14:04,386
I'd go, "Well, I'll check."
And, "No, I haven't."
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00:14:04,386 --> 00:14:06,763
And he started
talking about new deadlines.
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00:14:06,763 --> 00:14:09,683
So, then it was all like, "Oh, well,
if you don't get the money by then,
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I'll come and pay you in cash."
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00:14:11,518 --> 00:14:14,396
One time, he said he was gonna
turn up and give me the cash.
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00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:17,107
{\an8}And I remember then
I waited for him for a while.
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00:14:20,944 --> 00:14:24,114
{\an8}An hour later, I got a message,
"Oh, held up in a meeting with my auntie.
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{\an8}My auntie is here now."
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{\an8}And I thought,
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"Well, okay. I'll write the auntie."
And I get a reply straightaway.
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Then you kinda go,
"That is... That's bull."
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And I thought,
"I'm gonna contact Itamar and Sarit."
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00:14:42,841 --> 00:14:47,387
So, I said, "Look, I'm really sorry.
I haven't been paid by Gavin."
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00:14:47,387 --> 00:14:51,350
{\an8}After I talked to Itamar,
I get an email from Gavin Ambani saying,
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00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:53,352
"I've just come off the phone with Itamar.
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00:14:53,352 --> 00:14:55,103
He's been shouting at me
because I haven't paid you."
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"Now you've made me
want to commit suicide."
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I'm going, "What is going on?"
You know? "This is incredible."
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00:15:12,746 --> 00:15:14,748
As far as I knew then was,
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00:15:14,748 --> 00:15:18,377
the only way I was gonna get money
is to go through small claims.
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00:15:20,546 --> 00:15:24,842
I know the stress of it and I know
it's not a fun process to go through.
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I decided just to forget about it.
It's not worth it.
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00:15:28,345 --> 00:15:30,848
And that's the last I ever heard of him.
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I am in Trafalgar Square,
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00:15:40,315 --> 00:15:44,695
and right now
this is a quintessential spot
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00:15:44,695 --> 00:15:47,614
for tourists to come and see these lions.
200
00:15:47,614 --> 00:15:51,994
He would do things like accents
and it was always in jest,
201
00:15:51,994 --> 00:15:54,746
it was jovial, it was him acting for me.
202
00:15:54,746 --> 00:15:58,292
Well, I just came back
from the Roman Amphitheatre
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00:15:58,292 --> 00:16:01,211
and it was wonderful
and all that good stuff.
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00:16:02,296 --> 00:16:06,341
It made me realize
that he wants to show all these characters
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00:16:06,341 --> 00:16:09,469
that he kind of thinks he's made up of.
206
00:16:10,679 --> 00:16:13,307
So, once he trusted me enough,
207
00:16:13,307 --> 00:16:18,103
he suggested that we start
photographing things in his flat
208
00:16:18,103 --> 00:16:24,151
and modeling himself off these
Bon Appétit magazine YouTube chefs.
209
00:16:24,151 --> 00:16:26,278
- You got the burgers. We--
- We got the answers.
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00:16:26,278 --> 00:16:28,113
Right from there, right from the pot.
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00:16:28,113 --> 00:16:29,865
Come on, Vinny,
stick your camera in there.
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00:16:29,865 --> 00:16:32,993
What he liked about them
was that they're full of life,
213
00:16:32,993 --> 00:16:35,204
they're all good looking,
they're energetic,
214
00:16:35,204 --> 00:16:37,873
very talented behind a kitchen counter.
215
00:16:39,541 --> 00:16:41,752
Maybe he thought,
"Well, I can do all of that,
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00:16:41,752 --> 00:16:44,546
because I've got a cameraman,
I've got nice outfits,
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00:16:44,546 --> 00:16:47,382
and I have the ability
to make a cooking video."
218
00:16:48,091 --> 00:16:50,802
- Hey! What's going on, Julian?
- How are you, Gavin?
219
00:16:50,802 --> 00:16:52,846
Amazing, as you can see.
220
00:16:52,846 --> 00:16:53,931
You know what, Julian?
221
00:16:53,931 --> 00:16:57,684
Lots of people talking smack
about others, including myself.
222
00:16:57,684 --> 00:17:00,521
Been there, done that.
I was one of those people, as well.
223
00:17:01,230 --> 00:17:04,525
- That's not very nice.
- That's not nice, but at the same time,
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00:17:04,525 --> 00:17:06,568
if we let people get to us
225
00:17:06,568 --> 00:17:10,364
and we take revenge, so to speak,
we'll never progress in life.
226
00:17:11,323 --> 00:17:14,367
He was adamant
that he was gonna use it as a platform
227
00:17:14,367 --> 00:17:18,539
to get back at people
that he thought had done him wrong.
228
00:17:18,539 --> 00:17:21,250
When I was bullied
because I was a big kid.
229
00:17:21,250 --> 00:17:22,876
Of course I'm going to talk about it.
230
00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:24,670
I will!
What are you talking about, Julian?
231
00:17:25,337 --> 00:17:27,714
I thought that,
"This is all a little bit strange
232
00:17:27,714 --> 00:17:30,384
and not really what I signed up for."
233
00:17:33,887 --> 00:17:36,932
Then eventually he started
to push the boundaries a little bit
234
00:17:36,932 --> 00:17:38,725
in terms of squeezing my cheeks
235
00:17:38,725 --> 00:17:41,937
or telling me I'm beautiful
or wanting to hug me.
236
00:17:41,937 --> 00:17:46,108
And then one day he said to me,
"I'd like you to photograph my outfit."
237
00:17:46,108 --> 00:17:50,445
And then, so,
he proceeded to undress in front of me,
238
00:17:50,445 --> 00:17:54,199
and he said to me,
"Don't worry. I'm not gonna rape you."
239
00:17:54,199 --> 00:17:58,412
So I'm trying to photograph it and
the one thing that I thought about was,
240
00:17:58,412 --> 00:18:02,499
he told me that Harvey Weinstein
was one of these people he revered
241
00:18:02,499 --> 00:18:05,169
and he said
that Harvey taught him all the ways
242
00:18:05,169 --> 00:18:07,546
of how to operate as a producer.
243
00:18:07,546 --> 00:18:11,133
"Harvey was a great guy
and these women are just vindictive,
244
00:18:11,133 --> 00:18:14,720
and they're liars,
and the Me Too movement is a scam."
245
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,388
Which was a kind of scary thought
246
00:18:16,388 --> 00:18:19,349
to be trapped in a flat
with someone that believed that.
247
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:21,435
I thought to myself,
248
00:18:21,435 --> 00:18:26,106
"Little do you know, this is the last day
I'm putting up with this shit."
249
00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:25,332
By putting out into the world
so much on his own social media,
250
00:19:25,332 --> 00:19:30,379
it was clear to me that he's somebody
who's not able to exist
251
00:19:30,379 --> 00:19:34,675
without sharing his vision with the world.
252
00:19:34,675 --> 00:19:36,718
But it also was his own undoing.
253
00:19:36,718 --> 00:19:39,888
Because it became a part
of my day-to-day life
254
00:19:39,888 --> 00:19:42,558
over the course of two years,
255
00:19:42,558 --> 00:19:45,352
{\an8}to go on Instagram
and look at this profile,
256
00:19:45,352 --> 00:19:47,396
and there were two timelines.
257
00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:50,190
I'm tracking the storyline of the scam,
258
00:19:50,190 --> 00:19:53,068
and I know he just went out
to eat at this restaurant
259
00:19:53,068 --> 00:19:55,863
and an hour previously,
he was on the phone
260
00:19:55,863 --> 00:19:57,990
with a new person in Indonesia.
261
00:19:58,490 --> 00:20:00,868
He was putting more information
out there into the world.
262
00:20:00,868 --> 00:20:04,997
{\an8}I don't think he knew
I was paying attention or following along.
263
00:20:09,334 --> 00:20:11,378
And that's just old school detective work,
264
00:20:11,378 --> 00:20:14,715
but I really wanted
to gather that evidence
265
00:20:14,715 --> 00:20:18,385
{\an8}should it prove useful
for law enforcement in the future.
266
00:20:26,476 --> 00:20:28,145
But there were definitely nights
267
00:20:28,145 --> 00:20:30,105
where my husband told me,
"Turn off the computer."
268
00:20:30,105 --> 00:20:34,943
It'd be, like, three in the morning
and I would be like Carrie Mathison
269
00:20:34,943 --> 00:20:37,362
connecting my dots all over the place.
270
00:20:39,323 --> 00:20:42,284
I definitely was obsessed
with seeing it through.
271
00:20:42,284 --> 00:20:46,121
Nothing's dissuading him
from what he's doing
272
00:20:46,121 --> 00:20:51,960
and so I felt like I had to be an advocate
for people, because nobody else was.
273
00:20:52,836 --> 00:20:57,341
A lot of it was being done outside
of work hours, when I could get to it,
274
00:20:57,341 --> 00:21:00,260
because I had my real job,
and my real cases.
275
00:21:01,303 --> 00:21:05,516
One time, someone called
and I really needed to be taking notes,
276
00:21:06,016 --> 00:21:09,520
so the only notebook I could find
was this one
277
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,273
and so this became
the case notebook for a while
278
00:21:13,273 --> 00:21:16,360
where I just kept it on my desk
and scribbled in details
279
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:20,072
and hilariously,
it's now locked and I can't open it.
280
00:21:20,072 --> 00:21:23,617
So the secrets of the Con Queen
live in here,
281
00:21:23,617 --> 00:21:28,580
but this one, my official one,
is just silly pictures.
282
00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:31,500
So, this is the life of a working mom.
283
00:21:35,587 --> 00:21:39,132
You know, when these victims
would go to the FBI and get rebuffed,
284
00:21:39,132 --> 00:21:42,886
very often the next person
that they would turn to would be Nicole.
285
00:21:42,886 --> 00:21:47,641
She wound up talking to them,
oftentimes for hours and hours,
286
00:21:47,641 --> 00:21:52,145
even after the demands of K-2's clients
had essentially been met.
287
00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:56,608
This case was unique
in that we're not generally able
288
00:21:56,608 --> 00:21:58,861
to talk about the work that we do,
289
00:21:58,861 --> 00:22:04,449
but so many people were being affected
on an ongoing basis and being harmed,
290
00:22:04,449 --> 00:22:07,536
that we made the decision
that for the public good,
291
00:22:07,536 --> 00:22:12,416
we would put our contact information
out there, so that if somebody Googled
292
00:22:12,416 --> 00:22:15,460
{\an8}"Indonesia scam producer",
293
00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:17,254
something would pop up.
294
00:22:21,466 --> 00:22:25,804
Then, one day, while we're out at brunch,
my phone starts ringing.
295
00:22:26,763 --> 00:22:29,308
And I look at it,
and it's a blocked number.
296
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:33,437
And when I picked up,
Gavin was on the other end.
297
00:22:34,062 --> 00:22:39,234
That's what started the series
of conversations over about a week period.
298
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,031
He would just call
five in the morning my time,
299
00:22:44,031 --> 00:22:46,617
I'd be on the subway into the office,
300
00:22:47,201 --> 00:22:50,204
and you know, I had to always
pick it up whenever he would call.
301
00:22:51,371 --> 00:22:53,624
He definitely used his tricks on me.
302
00:22:53,624 --> 00:22:58,629
I think he definitely was trying to
psychologically profile me a little bit.
303
00:22:59,922 --> 00:23:01,882
He said,
"I know you're just doing your job.
304
00:23:01,882 --> 00:23:03,759
I respect working women."
305
00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:05,677
He used a lot of flattery.
306
00:23:05,677 --> 00:23:08,847
He referenced things
about my personal life
307
00:23:08,847 --> 00:23:12,017
that I'm not sure how he cobbled together.
308
00:23:12,976 --> 00:23:16,271
You know, the conversations...
I kinda just let him talk.
309
00:23:16,271 --> 00:23:19,274
He never once
admitted to doing any of this
310
00:23:19,274 --> 00:23:22,361
and he was,
you know, trying to get rid of me.
311
00:23:22,361 --> 00:23:24,404
Trying to make me go away.
312
00:23:25,364 --> 00:23:29,368
And then he just said, "Miss Kotsianas,
you know lot of things.
313
00:23:29,368 --> 00:23:32,704
There's penalties for people
who know too much.
314
00:23:32,704 --> 00:23:34,039
You know too much."
315
00:23:35,332 --> 00:23:36,959
Like, in a way, I had to disengage.
316
00:23:36,959 --> 00:23:39,419
I said, "I'm not picking up
the phone anymore."
317
00:23:39,419 --> 00:23:42,756
But that was the only time
that he ever did anything
318
00:23:42,756 --> 00:23:44,508
that made me feel uncomfortable.
319
00:23:44,508 --> 00:23:47,052
And I think it was probably
because he was aware
320
00:23:47,052 --> 00:23:50,138
that the walls were closing in
321
00:23:50,138 --> 00:23:53,267
and, you know,
I was partially responsible for that.
322
00:23:56,979 --> 00:24:00,107
The role that Nicole played in this
was just critical.
323
00:24:00,107 --> 00:24:06,154
You have to remember Harvey
had been on the FBI's radar for years
324
00:24:06,154 --> 00:24:08,740
and they just hadn't ever done anything.
325
00:24:09,491 --> 00:24:13,537
And she, pretty single-handedly,
helped build the case.
326
00:24:14,371 --> 00:24:16,915
I think the biggest mistake he made
327
00:24:16,915 --> 00:24:19,918
was thinking that, like, I would go away
328
00:24:19,918 --> 00:24:23,547
as long as he stopped
impersonating this client, or this client,
329
00:24:23,547 --> 00:24:25,632
and that just didn't happen.
330
00:24:26,717 --> 00:24:31,054
Because by that point,
we had amassed enough evidence
331
00:24:31,054 --> 00:24:34,474
in terms of the losses combined
for the victims that we knew of,
332
00:24:35,184 --> 00:24:37,936
and it was well over a million dollars.
333
00:24:38,687 --> 00:24:43,192
And then the FBI could do something
about it and did do something about it.
334
00:24:43,192 --> 00:24:45,152
Because it got to the scale
335
00:24:45,152 --> 00:24:47,988
where it was the sort of thing
they could devote resources to.
336
00:24:47,988 --> 00:24:51,783
And so, that took us
two years to get to that point.
337
00:24:52,492 --> 00:24:55,621
And a case was formally opened.
338
00:24:55,621 --> 00:24:57,998
The FBI put out a press release
339
00:24:58,582 --> 00:25:01,126
announcing the existence
of the investigation
340
00:25:01,126 --> 00:25:06,089
and also soliciting victims
to input their information,
341
00:25:06,089 --> 00:25:12,054
and that really enabled the investigation
to take it to the next level
342
00:25:12,054 --> 00:25:18,018
and it moved us
from the central contact point,
343
00:25:18,018 --> 00:25:19,520
moved it to the FBI.
344
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,106
So, I went back to the victims
I had already spoken to and said,
345
00:25:23,106 --> 00:25:24,900
"Look, there's momentum here."
346
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,569
That moment was a big breakthrough for me,
347
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:31,281
because it is the sort of case
that falls between the cracks all the time
348
00:25:32,074 --> 00:25:34,743
and I thought, "We're going to be able
to do something here."
349
00:25:35,869 --> 00:25:39,122
When the FBI decided to officially
open an investigation,
350
00:25:39,122 --> 00:25:40,624
I wrote about that.
351
00:25:41,542 --> 00:25:46,046
And I had the sense
that an arrest was imminent,
352
00:25:46,046 --> 00:25:47,714
but over the course
353
00:25:47,714 --> 00:25:53,345
{\an8}of 2019 and 2020, that didn't happen.
354
00:25:54,346 --> 00:25:55,931
{\an8}The challenge for the FBI was that,
355
00:25:55,931 --> 00:25:58,600
first they had to identify
what the crimes actually were,
356
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:03,605
then they had to gather all the evidence
to tie those crimes directly to Harvey,
357
00:26:03,605 --> 00:26:05,482
and then they had to coordinate
358
00:26:05,482 --> 00:26:08,652
with foreign law enforcement agencies
to make an arrest.
359
00:26:11,196 --> 00:26:13,782
I was convinced
that COVID was gonna stop him.
360
00:26:13,782 --> 00:26:15,826
Nothing else was stopping him,
361
00:26:15,826 --> 00:26:18,704
but I was like, "He's not gonna be
able to get people to fly."
362
00:26:18,704 --> 00:26:22,374
And then, sure enough,
I get a call from somebody who says,
363
00:26:22,374 --> 00:26:26,712
"I just sent five-thousand dollars
to a bank account in Indonesia
364
00:26:26,712 --> 00:26:31,258
for some martial arts training
that I'm gonna do over Zoom."
365
00:26:31,675 --> 00:26:35,053
He got with the times.
He adapted to what we all were doing
366
00:26:35,053 --> 00:26:38,557
and how we were all living,
and tweaked his scam to fit it.
367
00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:42,853
Then as time went on, people would say,
"What is taking so long?"
368
00:26:42,853 --> 00:26:45,522
Of course, it was frustrating to us, too.
369
00:26:45,522 --> 00:26:49,860
But the wheels of justice turn slowly.
370
00:26:52,029 --> 00:26:54,948
And so, I just stayed on it.
I kept writing about it.
371
00:26:54,948 --> 00:26:56,575
I would do little updates.
372
00:26:58,952 --> 00:27:00,621
But I started, at that point, to think,
373
00:27:00,621 --> 00:27:04,666
"Well, this is just bigger
than simply an article."
374
00:27:05,584 --> 00:27:08,670
So, I had decided to write a book
about this whole saga,
375
00:27:08,670 --> 00:27:13,175
because I really wanted
to explore it more.
376
00:27:13,175 --> 00:27:15,511
And one of the big questions for me was,
377
00:27:15,511 --> 00:27:22,267
"Was this person acting out of malevolence
or had something happened to him?
378
00:27:23,018 --> 00:27:27,648
Had he been traumatized? Had he been hurt?
379
00:27:27,773 --> 00:27:30,651
And if so, how?"
380
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,197
So, I thought, "Well, maybe there's
a chance that he would talk to me."
381
00:27:35,197 --> 00:27:37,533
Because if I'm gonna
write a book about him,
382
00:27:37,533 --> 00:27:40,619
I can't not hear what he has to say.
383
00:27:41,620 --> 00:27:44,039
And I'd been trying for a long time,
384
00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:48,001
I'd sent him WhatsApp messages,
I'd sent him emails.
385
00:27:48,001 --> 00:27:50,087
I mean, I'd tried Instagram.
386
00:27:51,129 --> 00:27:54,216
I'd tried to call
numbers that I had for him.
387
00:27:54,216 --> 00:27:55,801
He just ignored me.
388
00:27:56,301 --> 00:27:59,471
{\an8}I contemplated many times
going to try to find him,
389
00:27:59,471 --> 00:28:03,559
{\an8}but one of the tricky things
was that he was moving constantly.
390
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:06,812
You could keep track of him on Purebytes,
391
00:28:06,812 --> 00:28:11,149
but you never really knew from one day
to the next, where he actually was.
392
00:28:11,149 --> 00:28:12,651
How's it going, Instagram folks?
393
00:28:12,651 --> 00:28:15,362
I'm currently
at the Victoria and Albert Museum.
394
00:28:15,362 --> 00:28:19,074
{\an8}He was in London one day,
he was in Manchester the next.
395
00:28:19,074 --> 00:28:24,663
Currently in rainy city, Manchester.
That should be the nickname of Manchester.
396
00:28:24,663 --> 00:28:27,165
So he did a lot of travelling
around the UK.
397
00:28:27,165 --> 00:28:29,126
I'm currently at Leeds.
398
00:28:29,126 --> 00:28:31,628
I'm in the sleepy town of Gullane.
399
00:28:31,628 --> 00:28:35,007
Rise and shine.
I'm currently in Edinburgh.
400
00:28:35,007 --> 00:28:39,720
And so, the prospect of going to the UK
401
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:45,767
and poking around in half a dozen
different cities until I find him,
402
00:28:45,767 --> 00:28:47,769
was not really an option.
403
00:28:48,729 --> 00:28:51,398
And then, Harvey took Purebytes down.
404
00:28:51,398 --> 00:28:53,942
He just dismantled it. He took it offline.
405
00:28:55,736 --> 00:28:59,156
At which point he sort of disappeared.
406
00:29:00,157 --> 00:29:03,285
And I think I'd gotten a little bit stuck.
407
00:29:03,827 --> 00:29:06,580
I didn't know where to go
with the story...
408
00:29:08,749 --> 00:29:13,962
...but everything sort of changed
in September of 2020.
409
00:29:13,962 --> 00:29:18,425
A woman in Indonesia
named Haseena Bharata,
410
00:29:18,425 --> 00:29:20,677
with whom I'd been in touch,
411
00:29:20,677 --> 00:29:24,306
she was somebody who knew Harvey as a kid,
412
00:29:24,306 --> 00:29:27,935
and Haseena had an Instagram show.
413
00:29:27,935 --> 00:29:32,022
So, one day, she messaged me
and she said that she planned
414
00:29:32,022 --> 00:29:34,274
to have Harvey on the show.
415
00:29:35,275 --> 00:29:39,530
As Hargobind, as himself,
which had never happened before.
416
00:29:39,905 --> 00:29:41,698
Hi, there. How are you?
417
00:29:41,698 --> 00:29:43,242
Fabulous. How are you?
418
00:29:43,242 --> 00:29:45,327
You're looking good, Gobind.
419
00:29:45,702 --> 00:29:47,246
Thank you so much.
420
00:29:47,246 --> 00:29:49,998
- So good to see you after ages...
- Likewise.
421
00:29:49,998 --> 00:29:53,836
...and thank you for wanting
to share with us your experience.
422
00:29:53,836 --> 00:29:58,549
I mean, he was taking
all kinds of risks by doing this video.
423
00:29:58,549 --> 00:30:04,263
But I think, in his mind,
it was an attempt to establish himself
424
00:30:04,263 --> 00:30:08,684
as a renewed, reinvigorated,
425
00:30:08,684 --> 00:30:15,023
reborn person
living his best life in the UK.
426
00:30:15,023 --> 00:30:18,777
How and what made you who you are today?
427
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:21,905
There's still a long way for me,
Haseena, to go.
428
00:30:21,905 --> 00:30:24,825
I mean, it's still a long way and...
429
00:30:25,826 --> 00:30:29,037
You know, I had to go through so much.
430
00:30:29,705 --> 00:30:33,500
I've done a lot of wrong things in my life
to get by, to survive,
431
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:35,669
because there was no way out.
432
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:41,091
You know, I was very destitute,
very troubled, in my life.
433
00:30:41,091 --> 00:30:45,721
And today I'm happy, I'm enjoying my life,
434
00:30:45,721 --> 00:30:49,975
I'm on my 20th floor
overlooking the beautiful city of London.
435
00:30:49,975 --> 00:30:53,604
Now I had this piece of information.
436
00:30:53,604 --> 00:30:56,356
Here he was, in a location.
437
00:30:57,941 --> 00:31:04,531
I realized I could use the data
from that interview to try to find him.
438
00:31:08,243 --> 00:31:12,331
I took a bunch of screenshots
of the interview,
439
00:31:12,998 --> 00:31:15,792
because there was a window behind him
440
00:31:15,792 --> 00:31:19,338
and you could see
a skyline and a cityscape.
441
00:31:20,506 --> 00:31:23,884
I had a friend who grew up in the UK,
442
00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:28,847
{\an8}I sent a bunch of pictures to him
and I said,
443
00:31:28,847 --> 00:31:33,685
"Can you identify anything
in these pictures, anything at all?"
444
00:31:35,354 --> 00:31:39,441
I had one picture in which you could see,
in the background, a tower
445
00:31:39,441 --> 00:31:41,568
and it said, "City Tower" on it.
446
00:31:41,568 --> 00:31:46,573
And my friend and I figured out
together where we thought he was.
447
00:31:46,573 --> 00:31:48,408
Where he actually was.
448
00:31:48,408 --> 00:31:53,789
And where he actually was,
was not London, as he told her,
449
00:31:53,789 --> 00:31:55,415
but it was Manchester.
450
00:31:55,415 --> 00:31:57,584
Now this is where
Manchester is, obviously.
451
00:31:57,584 --> 00:32:00,337
We zoom back in to the city
452
00:32:00,337 --> 00:32:04,842
and this is the tower that you were
talking before about. City Tower, here.
453
00:32:05,551 --> 00:32:09,596
But I kept coming back to this image,
this cluster of buildings here
454
00:32:09,596 --> 00:32:11,765
because it just seems so familiar to me.
455
00:32:11,765 --> 00:32:14,893
I realized that the photo
was gonna be mirrored
456
00:32:14,893 --> 00:32:16,937
'cause he's taking it as a selfie.
457
00:32:16,937 --> 00:32:20,190
But I've come across
these three buildings here,
458
00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:26,530
and you can see that, you know, it matches
the red and then the yellow and the white.
459
00:32:26,530 --> 00:32:28,615
I kind of looked around to see if...
460
00:32:28,615 --> 00:32:31,743
what I could see, and then, yeah,
lo and behold,
461
00:32:31,743 --> 00:32:34,329
- it is that building there.
- Oh, my gosh. There it is.
462
00:32:34,329 --> 00:32:38,876
You can see the City Tower is there,
463
00:32:38,876 --> 00:32:45,424
so I think that he's taken
from one of these apartments here.
464
00:32:45,966 --> 00:32:50,012
There were a couple of buildings
that were correctly positioned
465
00:32:50,012 --> 00:32:53,182
{\an8}such that they would give
that vantage point
466
00:32:53,182 --> 00:32:55,309
{\an8}that Harvey had from his window.
467
00:32:57,311 --> 00:33:00,147
{\an8}And one of them was called
468
00:33:00,147 --> 00:33:02,524
The Light ApartHotel.
469
00:33:02,524 --> 00:33:06,028
And that made perfect sense
because The Light ApartHotel
470
00:33:06,028 --> 00:33:08,822
is a kind of a temporary dwelling
471
00:33:08,822 --> 00:33:13,869
where you can rent
a fully furnished apartment
472
00:33:13,869 --> 00:33:17,456
for a day, a week, a month.
473
00:33:17,456 --> 00:33:23,587
It's perfect for somebody like Harvey
who didn't want to be settled anywhere.
474
00:33:23,587 --> 00:33:28,509
And I thought,
"Well, just a couple weeks ago
475
00:33:28,509 --> 00:33:32,012
he was in this Light ApartHotel
doing a video,
476
00:33:32,012 --> 00:33:35,974
it's COVID,
he's probably not travelling much,
477
00:33:35,974 --> 00:33:39,645
I've gotta go find him."
And so, I booked a flight
478
00:33:39,645 --> 00:33:45,484
and I booked a reservation
at the Light ApartHotel.
479
00:33:55,911 --> 00:33:59,414
{\an8}A big part of this journey is,
480
00:33:59,414 --> 00:34:05,420
my attempt to get to the bottom of this
before he becomes unavailable.
481
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:08,465
It might be a very long time,
482
00:34:09,341 --> 00:34:11,552
but it might be next week,
it might be tomorrow,
483
00:34:11,552 --> 00:34:16,181
and I don't wanna miss the opportunity
to at least try to find him,
484
00:34:16,181 --> 00:34:19,726
try to get to him
to see where he's been holed up,
485
00:34:19,726 --> 00:34:23,605
to see what his life is like.
486
00:34:26,608 --> 00:34:29,444
Then I landed in the UK,
487
00:34:29,444 --> 00:34:34,658
I checked in, and the rooms there are...
488
00:34:34,658 --> 00:34:37,494
It's just glass all around.
489
00:34:37,494 --> 00:34:40,330
It felt very exposed,
490
00:34:40,330 --> 00:34:42,833
and I sort of marveled at the idea
491
00:34:42,833 --> 00:34:49,547
that this person who had so successfully
hidden from so many people for so long
492
00:34:50,299 --> 00:34:53,886
was quite possibly
living in this fish bowl.
493
00:34:54,969 --> 00:34:59,933
But it just felt like
a pretty lonely existence
494
00:34:59,933 --> 00:35:05,564
living in this glass house, you know,
in the middle of this bustling city.
495
00:35:07,482 --> 00:35:10,611
I'm here in the hotel.
496
00:35:10,611 --> 00:35:13,488
I'm talking quietly because...
497
00:35:14,698 --> 00:35:16,950
I don't know how the sound carries in here
498
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:20,037
and for all I know
he could be on the same floor
499
00:35:20,746 --> 00:35:22,414
or in the next room over.
500
00:35:22,414 --> 00:35:27,628
Okay, that's all for now. I'm...
Let's see what I can find.
501
00:35:29,796 --> 00:35:34,384
So, the next day I woke up and I thought,
"I'm just gonna sit here in the lobby."
502
00:35:35,886 --> 00:35:40,891
So, I just sat down, pulled down my hat,
tried to make myself inconspicuous,
503
00:35:40,891 --> 00:35:43,477
and just buried myself in my phone.
504
00:35:44,269 --> 00:35:46,271
So, I sat there for about an hour,
505
00:35:46,271 --> 00:35:50,526
and then, all of a sudden,
I heard the elevator ding.
506
00:35:55,113 --> 00:35:56,782
And I heard the voice.
507
00:36:01,828 --> 00:36:04,373
And I just knew
right away that it was him.
508
00:36:11,338 --> 00:36:12,798
And so I followed him.
509
00:36:16,468 --> 00:36:18,887
I... okay, I found him.
510
00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:23,642
As soon as I made my way into the street,
there was a lot of buses,
511
00:36:23,642 --> 00:36:25,853
so I was kind of trying
to keep an eye on him.
512
00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:33,569
But then, to my dismay,
he was actually headed
513
00:36:33,569 --> 00:36:37,197
into the entrance of the giant mall.
514
00:36:38,031 --> 00:36:40,492
There were hundreds and hundreds
of people in the mall.
515
00:36:40,993 --> 00:36:46,957
So, I just spent the next
two hours or so just circling.
516
00:36:53,672 --> 00:36:55,424
And I couldn't find him anywhere.
517
00:37:02,848 --> 00:37:06,476
Writing a book is a massive endeavor.
It's four years of your life.
518
00:37:06,476 --> 00:37:08,270
You know, why this story?
519
00:37:09,563 --> 00:37:15,235
There were aspects of this story
that I think spoke to some themes
520
00:37:15,235 --> 00:37:18,697
that had been present
in my life ever since I was a kid.
521
00:37:18,697 --> 00:37:23,035
Ideas around deception, manipulation,
522
00:37:23,035 --> 00:37:25,829
those things sort of
spoke to me at a deeper level,
523
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:28,457
because of what my childhood was like.
524
00:37:30,250 --> 00:37:33,086
My parents divorced when I was about six,
525
00:37:33,086 --> 00:37:36,715
and I wound up
going overseas with my father.
526
00:37:36,715 --> 00:37:39,843
We had already lived
in India when I was a kid,
527
00:37:39,843 --> 00:37:43,847
and later we moved
to Pakistan and Yugoslavia,
528
00:37:43,847 --> 00:37:45,766
and it was really exhilarating.
529
00:37:46,391 --> 00:37:49,228
We were kind of off
on this big adventure.
530
00:37:49,895 --> 00:37:54,983
But what I didn't know was
that my dad was a spy for the CIA.
531
00:37:55,651 --> 00:37:59,238
And when you're fourteen and your dad
tells you he is basically James Bond,
532
00:37:59,238 --> 00:38:03,075
it's intoxicating to be let in
on such an interesting secret.
533
00:38:03,742 --> 00:38:06,370
But the reality is
a little bit more complicated,
534
00:38:06,370 --> 00:38:10,290
because in the movies,
James Bond didn't have a family,
535
00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:13,293
but real spies do have families.
536
00:38:14,169 --> 00:38:18,715
And sometimes,
those families have to become complicit
537
00:38:18,715 --> 00:38:20,801
in a certain amount of deception.
538
00:38:21,635 --> 00:38:25,347
When I was a kid,
I had to help him maintain his cover.
539
00:38:25,347 --> 00:38:28,725
I had to keep our story straight.
540
00:38:29,852 --> 00:38:32,688
The CIA actually
commissioned a study one time,
541
00:38:32,688 --> 00:38:35,941
where they tried to figure out
what job in the civilian world
542
00:38:35,941 --> 00:38:38,735
corresponded most closely
to the job that my father had,
543
00:38:38,735 --> 00:38:40,279
which was a case officer.
544
00:38:40,279 --> 00:38:45,158
And that job was foreign correspondent,
which is what I was for many years.
545
00:38:46,285 --> 00:38:49,663
And I didn't have to lie
to protect my father,
546
00:38:49,663 --> 00:38:53,250
but I had to kind of
lie about him to protect myself,
547
00:38:53,250 --> 00:38:56,962
because I was often working in these,
you know, dangerous places,
548
00:38:56,962 --> 00:39:02,843
and war zones, and the kinds of situations
where any sort of affiliation with the CIA
549
00:39:02,843 --> 00:39:06,138
would've been
very dangerous and even deadly.
550
00:39:06,722 --> 00:39:11,393
So, there were aspects of the story that
resonated with my own self-conception,
551
00:39:11,393 --> 00:39:14,813
this idea of the masks that we wear
and the lies that we tell.
552
00:39:15,355 --> 00:39:19,985
But Harvey's lies
and his sort of forays into transformation
553
00:39:19,985 --> 00:39:23,780
took on these really grotesque forms
554
00:39:23,780 --> 00:39:27,993
and became altogether sadistic and warped.
555
00:39:29,036 --> 00:39:31,371
And that drew me to the story, I think
556
00:39:31,371 --> 00:39:33,373
in a way
that other scams might not have.
557
00:39:40,297 --> 00:39:41,798
Today was a good day.
558
00:39:41,798 --> 00:39:46,845
After two years
and three months... I found him.
559
00:39:48,388 --> 00:39:52,935
When I saw him, my heart started racing.
I had to take a bunch of deep breaths.
560
00:39:54,478 --> 00:39:58,690
So I think tomorrow,
what I'm gonna do is get up early
561
00:39:58,690 --> 00:40:04,446
and if I see him leaving,
I'll try to follow him again.
562
00:40:06,406 --> 00:40:10,494
And then the next morning, I took up
my exact same position in the lobby.
563
00:40:11,620 --> 00:40:14,581
And sure enough, he was there again.
564
00:40:16,124 --> 00:40:19,837
So, I followed him
and he did the exact same thing.
565
00:40:22,756 --> 00:40:24,591
And this time I was closer to him,
566
00:40:24,591 --> 00:40:27,511
and I was very diligent
about not losing him.
567
00:40:31,431 --> 00:40:34,268
It was strange to be doing that.
568
00:40:41,608 --> 00:40:45,237
But I just wanted to find the best way
569
00:40:45,237 --> 00:40:48,031
to approach him
so that he would talk to me.
570
00:40:49,867 --> 00:40:52,286
He made his way to the grocery store,
571
00:40:54,288 --> 00:40:56,999
and then he went back in the hotel
and back up to his room.
572
00:40:57,791 --> 00:41:01,336
So, now I had a sense
of where he went every day.
573
00:41:06,717 --> 00:41:09,678
Today, he was all by himself again.
574
00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:15,350
But I'm a little bit nervous
about confronting him,
575
00:41:15,350 --> 00:41:20,939
because I know that he can and has been...
576
00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:26,612
you know, very volatile, and even violent.
577
00:41:30,365 --> 00:41:32,659
That's something I've been grappling with.
578
00:41:33,827 --> 00:41:36,705
My dad emailed me overnight
with some suggestions
579
00:41:36,705 --> 00:41:40,459
about what to say, how to say it...
580
00:41:41,585 --> 00:41:43,212
I've got butterflies in my stomach.
581
00:41:43,212 --> 00:41:46,507
I... I'm not sure how this is gonna go.
582
00:41:47,424 --> 00:41:50,886
There is gonna be somebody filming me...
583
00:41:52,763 --> 00:41:55,390
maybe from a distance with a mic on,
584
00:41:55,390 --> 00:41:58,644
so I can hopefully, pick up some audio.
585
00:42:10,489 --> 00:42:13,450
There. Wait, is that him?
Right there. This one?
586
00:42:17,955 --> 00:42:20,457
He's turned the corner. Here in the mall.
587
00:42:20,457 --> 00:42:23,752
Looks like he's going
on the same route as yesterday.
588
00:42:30,759 --> 00:42:32,344
He's in a long line.
589
00:42:39,351 --> 00:42:43,438
When he comes out,
I'm going to approach him.
590
00:43:01,498 --> 00:43:02,708
Sorry, excuse me.
591
00:43:03,166 --> 00:43:04,710
Can I have a minute of your time?
592
00:43:04,835 --> 00:43:06,587
- Yeah.
- Yeah, hey...
593
00:43:06,587 --> 00:43:09,089
Sorry to bother you. My name is Scott.
594
00:43:09,089 --> 00:43:12,217
I'm the journalist
who's been trying to contact you.
50294
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