All language subtitles for Mary.and.George.S01E00.Mary.and.George.and.Me.1080p.WEB.h264-EDITH.Hi

'Mary and George Villiers, the
most fascinating mother-and-son duo

in British history that you've
probably never heard of.

Mary, a down-and-out aristocrat

with a cunning wit and
insatiable desire for power.

And George, her
impossibly beautiful son,

who proved the ultimate
weapon for penetrating

and then dominating
King James's court.

The two rocked the foundations
of 17th-century England,

performing an astonishing
display of social climbing

to wreak political havoc and seize
a terrifying volume of power.

As someone with a lifelong
obsession with iconic women,

and something of a
penchant for niche trivia,

I want to know more about this
tumultuous period of Jacobean history

and about the lives of
the courtiers and royals

as they romped their way
- on horseback, obviously

through the early 1600s.

So I'm here to meet the new
wave of historians unravelling

these complex, messy,
emotional versions of our past

and the creative forces responsible
for bringing it all back to life.

This is Jacobean history,
but not as you know it.

This is Mary & George

& me.

The audacious historical
psychodrama Mary & George

has resurrected these
formidable characters to portray

a twisted battle of
sex, love and power.

But in order to fully grasp
the societal structures

that Mary so elegantly dismantled,
I wanted to know a little bit more

about Jacobean Times and
King James I's English reign,

which is where my new best friend,
author, scholar and low key genius

Katherine Rundell,
comes into play.'

So to begin with, do you mind giving
us just a kind of broad overview

to what's so fascinating about
this section of British history?

If you picked up
the Jacobean court

and turned it upside down
and shook it(CHUCKLES)

out of it would fall so many

schemes and love affairs

and a thousand
machinating souls.

It was a time where, if
you could not strategise,

you fell by the
wayside. And it was also

incredibly glamorous.

It was a moment where people
were moving away from the more

strict chivalric
code of Elizabeth

and toward something a little
bit looser, a little bit wilder.

'Cut! Hold it there.

OK, so short intermission for those
who slept through history class.

The Jacobean Era - 'Jacobus'
being Latin for 'James'

spans from 1603 to 1625,

and is best known for
its cultural bangers,

namely Shakespeare, Guy
Fawkes' gunpowder plot,

and King James's v popular
translation of the Bible,

which remains one of the most
widely read texts in the world.

Starting life with a
bang, no pun intended,

in 1567, barely out of nappies,

James, aged one,
becomes king of Scotland

after his mother,
Mary, Queen of Scots,

was forced off the
throne and imprisoned.

In 1603, when Queen Elizabeth
I died without an heir,

James inherited the English crown
to become King James I of England

and VI of Scotland: A step
towards unifying the two nations.

And now back to the main event.'

What can you tell us about James
I and how he rose to power?

Shortly after he became king,

a secretary wrote to
the Doge of Venice that,

"he seems to have
forgotten that he is king

except in his kingly
pursuit of stags

"to which he is much
dedicated." Wow.

He also had terrible
table manners.

His tongue was slightly
too big for his mouth,

so when he drank,
he used to dribble.

So, there's this version of the
king, a literal dribbling idiot.

(LAUGHS) But then
there's a reimagining

of the king, the scholar king.
And is there a particular way

that James I ruled
that we can see now?

Was he any different
to other monarchs?

James' court was more fluid,

a little bit more open.

Everything was a little
bit looser and newer.

And we have these
fascinating letters,

written by people who had been
prominent in Elizabeth's court,

panicking that they no
longer understood the rules

and are utterly dismayed

at what they experiencing
is a kind of... snake pit.

'So it was clear from the
beginning of James's reign

that he was going to rewrite the
rulebook of British aristocracy.

Fast forward 20 years
and you find Mary,

ready to take advantage
of this new loose society

for her own gains.'

I'm here at the National
Portrait Gallery,

which is my favourite
place in London.

It's very exciting today
because, apparently,

there's a portrait of Mary
Villiers here in the archive

that they've agreed to, you know,
get out and dust off for us.

Follow moi.

Obviously, she's
absolutely stunning.

Where does she normally live?
She's part of our reference

collection, so she's normally
kept in the archive basement.

How many other images have you
ever seen of Mary Villiers?

Well, I guess the most beautiful one
is a full-length painted portrait,

but we haven't seen that since it
was sold at Christie's in 1938.

No one knows where it is now.
So someone's just got that

hanging in their house
potentially? I hope so, yes.

Do many people come asking to
see images of Mary Villiers?

No. That's really sad!

It is, given the significance of
her life and her achievements.

'Eyes fresh from the real
deal Mary, it was time

for a coffee with Julianne Moore to
find out how she brought her version

of this devious woman
to life on screen.'

Mary's character was
outrageous in a sense.

Here was this person who had
absolutely no agency of her own,

no autonomy, didn't
own any property,

had such a strong sense
of self and a directness

and a kind of ambition for herself
and particularly for her children.

And when you think about
what she managed to achieve,

she really left everyone
set up very, very well.

Can you describe this relationship
she has with her children?

In particular, of course,
there's George.Right.

What was it about him that she saw
that she felt she could sort of

manipulate more than
her other children?

In her educating
them, she learned

that George was utterly
charming and a great dancer.

So he wasn't great at academics,

but he was great at
entertaining people.

She sees his charm
and his beauty

and how attractive he
is to other people.

Especially to someone
like King James I.Yeah.

Who was, kind of, her
main prize. Her idea is

to find a way to, you know

after the death of
her first husband,

who we portray as a
brutal and difficult man,

she's looking for a way

to educate our children
and keep herself alive.

And the only way
she's able to do that

is through her relationships
with powerful men.

And she herself therefore
becomes powerful,

but she's quite a
complex character. Right.

How did you go about playing
someone like Mary Villiers?

There was something so
outrageous about her,

something so direct.
She seemed to have

her own desire for power

in a situation where she
might possibly have none.

It felt really
unusual and clever.

I think she's written brilliantly.
DC Moore, Dave, our writer,

I think, wrote a really
interesting, compelling,

very funny, ambitious woman.

What if I come later?
When I'm older?

You could.

But if you miss this
chance, you'll fail us all

and live like your father, smeared
in the unwashable excrement

of eternal shame.

Bon voyage. (THUMPS CARRIAGE)

Do you have an opinion about what
was motivating Mary Villiers?

I think ambition.
(LAUGHS) Right.

Just raw, kind of,
like thirst? Well,

I think... yeah, yeah,
but also survival.

Yeah. You know, when you have
no autonomy, you have no agency.

All you have is really, you know,
through who you're married to

and realising that she
has to wield her own charm

or sexuality to
gain that agency.

So it's either going to be
through someone that she marries

or someone that her
sons are aligned with.

And so she did manage to
do that really pretty well.

No, it's so impressive!
Yeah. As you say,

like, women obviously were
completely disenfranchised

at that time.Mm-hm. There
were very few options.

'It's pretty impressive stuff. She's
like a chess master manoeuvring

her men around like pawns.
I'm personally intrigued

to find out what it's like to be on
the receiving end of her powers.'

What is George's
relationship with Mary like?

And how does that kind of evolve?
It's a very complex relationship,

but he's the second son. Mary
sees the potential in him,

chooses him out of
all her children,

to really put her
faith in and back.

He's just desperate
for her validation

and her love, and he'll do
anything to achieve that.

She really manipulates him and
there's obvious, genuine love there,

but it never really comes

unconditionally, which is a very
difficult thing for a child to have.

It's interesting as well
that your character is

kind of raised like a girl.

It's things we've seen in other
series where they're playing

the piano or whatever, or
kind of using their wiles.

It's very interesting.
I think it lends some

level of femininity to
this masculine character.

And I think, you know, we're
obviously in this really

interesting time nowadays
where the sort of borders

between masculinity and femininity
are blending a little bit.Yeah.

There is something within that
that modern audiences, I think,

will really appreciate and be able
to connect with. This is a woman

operating in a
male-dominated world and

no family rose this quickly

in such a high trajectory
during this period of time.

Her power and, you know,
Julianne's performance

and portraying Mary,
it's hard not to admire.

'It took a team of
creatives to excavate

this dark and twisted history
where it seems to have lain hidden

for the past few hundred years.

That's until exec producer
Liza Marshall got involved.'

It's kind of your
fault, all of this.

I suppose so, yes. I was reading
an article about five years ago

and I saw a little piece
about James I being gay.

I started doing loads of
research and tried to find

a really interesting
way into his story.

And then I came across Ben
Woolley's book, King's Assassin,

then took it to Dave, who then
wrote the brilliant scripts.

Obviously you read Ben's
book. What happens next?

How do you approach
fictionalising this text?

The amount of information there
is about Mary for me is perfect.

There are glimmers
of this astonishingly

powerful and influential person
working behind the scenes.

And as a writer, that really
appeals to me because it means

I get to make a lot up, but
I also can sort of return

to the well of truth every now and
then for the general curve of it.

When you're writing the scripts,
you're like, "How do I give

this person an agency,
an intelligence

and a wit that she
must have had?"

Sir Thomas Compton?
Afraid so. You?

Your next wife.

Sorry, love? Don't be.

She clearly had enormous
ambition, but that doesn't show up

in the historical record
basically until later in her life

when people start to
get annoyed with her.

They're very puzzled how this
woman from a relatively lowly

gentry background managed to
achieve this enormous influence

in James's court. There
was a kind of scramble

to understand who she was
and where she came from.

I do not own my home.

Or any asset. My
children are unwed.

If the king's affection for
you curdles, we have nothing.

What was it about Mary
Villiers in particular

that you found so compelling?
What I always want

to do is try and put women
at the centre of history,

because too often history
has been written by the men.

In fact, entirely, history's
been written by men.

She's a minor
character in the book,

but I just think the idea that
she essentially pimped out

her very hot second
son to seduce James I

was a brilliant jumping-off
point for a story.

Her behaviour is complicated
in the sense that it's hard

to know whether she's
this iconic woman

managing to find
her way to power

or whether she was just
using someone and is kind of

a bit of a dark lord.
How do you view her?

I think without doubt she was
the smartest person in the room,

cos I think to go from the
outer reaches of the gentry,

she was essentially a serving
woman, so not quite a servant,

but was working in
service, you know,

as a sort of
gentlewoman to a lady.

And to go from there to
become the closest woman

to James I is such
an extraordinary rise

at a time when women
had virtually no power.

Do you see Mary as a feminist?

Depends what the
definition of feminism is.

I mean, if it means
supporting other women,

I think probably
the answer is no,

because she's definitely prepared
to throw other women under the bus

if... you know, if it
helps her rise to power.

She's not a sympathetic woman,
but she's doing whatever she can

at that time to survive.

So, I think you like her, despite
the fact that maybe sometimes

she does some dark things.
Yeah. She doesn't have to be

a nice person for us to be
compelled by her journey.

What do you think the
value is of portraying

these amazingly kind of
complex female characters?

Cos that's how women
are in real life.

Yeah, you got it! Correct.
I think these stories are

really important. I think
you need to refocus history

and remember all the powerful
women that were there.

Even though it's a slightly
heightened world that we're in

and that Dave has
created with his scripts,

pretty much everything you
see in the drama is true.Yeah.

So she really did do all
of these crazy things.

I think it's pretty
astonishing that Mary Villiers

is someone that's kind of ostensibly
been written out of history,

but actually her actions and
her gumption and this kind of

propulsion she had to better her
life and that of her families

has led to very meaningful

historical events,

and yet it's someone
that we've overlooked.

Think of how many more
women there are in history

to explore that have had
this butterfly effect

on the way we are.

'Despite the fact that
the Swinging Sixteens

were clearly a time of
loosening social order,

how Mary infiltrated
King James's court was

an outrageously bold achievement,
begging the question:

What was royal life like in the
17th century and how might someone

lark their way into it, should
they have the taste for power?'

We see a lot of
scenes taking place

in Mary & George happening
around the king's orbit.

Can you tell us what the
king's court actually is?

So the king's court is
not one physical place.

It's the group of
people around the king

moving from maybe St James's
Palace to Hampton Court,

which had kitchens that
could feed a thousand people.

So this was an enormous
number of people,

and it would be dukes and
nobles and hangers-on,

and of course, ravishingly
beautiful young men.

'Well, that sounds amazing.

So as Mary clawed
her way up the ranks,

her style changed dramatically,

knowing, like many a
successful social climber,

the power of looking the part.'

How was it for people
in the 17th century?

What did your clothes
mean and could they be

wielded as a powerful tool?

Clothes have always
been a way of speaking,

whether they're saying, "Oh,
ignore me" or "Admire me" or...

"Endow my words with
greater seriousness

than you would were I not
wearing this enormous hat."

Like, it's always
been a way of talking

and Jacobean clothes spoke.

How did people in the 17th
century know what was trending?

There was an aisle in
St Paul's Cathedral

called Duke Humphrey's
Walk. It was said

that if you wanted
the most precise

and new set of clothes, you
took your tailor by the wrist

and you made him stand behind
a pillar and watch the gallants

walking up and down the aisle.
And by the end of half an hour,

he would have seen every fresh,
new fashion and within the week,

you could have your clothes
with the first printing.

Wow! I love that. God, people
don't really change, do they?

'Clearly, the power
of a great outfit

has stayed true for
the past 400 years.

But beyond the obvious,
what I'm really here for

is to find out what was hot
and what was not circa 1620.

Because fashion's
cyclical, isn't it?

So it's only a matter of time before
this stuff comes back around.'

I'd wear that now with jeans.

This is my dream
wardrobe, legit.

If I could open my wardrobe
and it was just like, ye-olde-y

white frilly things...
I'd be thrilled.

I feel like these fabrics
are the more drab end

cos they're for the crowd
rather than the main characters.

Peasants.

It's a sexy hat.

Incredible.

Isn't that nice?

Sup. Too much?

'And enough messing around.

It was time to remember
the reason I was here.'

So the lady who heads up
this entire department,

who's like kind of
the imagination behind

all of these beautiful costumes
is a woman called Annie.

And I'm going to go and find
her and ask her to tell me

what the hell is going on here.

So much effeminate bow
scenarios going on.

It's nonsense. I
love it. (CHUCKLES)

That's like when I try and,
like, scuff up my Converse

so they look a bit cooler. Well,
send them over to us. (LAUGHS)

Bum rolls. Bum
rolls. I love them.

Beautiful. So nice.

'Well, we obviously got
on like a house on fire.'

Shall we talk about
Jacobean fashion in general?

Like, how did you start to
put all of this together?

The first port of
call is a painting.

At this period, court paintings
were very heavily stylised.

So what you get is a very
abstract line of beauty,

which is actually very
useful for design,

because designing costume,
you're always trying to find

the keys into the
period. I think for me,

certainly it's very clear
what the Jacobean shapes are

and they're very exciting cos
they haven't really been done.

There's a lot of Elizabethan
and Tudor costume

and then later Stuart stuff
around but not this period.

When it came to approaching Mary's
costume, where did you start?

I met Julianne and basically
fitted shapes on her to see

what worked on her figure

and what worked
with the timeline.

This is Mary. All of this
is her costume.Right.

This is her kind of most
iconic sort of look.Mm-hm.

I think this shape and it

it's getting, I
think, quite modern.

It's almost new-lookish.
It's... Totally.

It has a contemporary
simplicity,

but that seemed quite important
for her as a character

that, you know, we understood
her as a woman with power

and not cluttered with all

the artifice of courts.

This, for example, is
when she becomes Countess.

Wow. It really is her
Cinderella moment.

Yeah! Beautiful. So
we went a bit flash.

This is a more quiet version,
but this is her portrait,

just before the height
of her wealth and powers.

In Mary's story, the
start of her story,

she's fallen on hard times.
She's got a grotty hem.

She's got a very grotty
hem. She had had money.

Yeah. And it all
went terribly wrong.

She ended up dragging
herself through the mud,

metaphorically and
physically. Mm-hmm.

I wanted to describe
that whole world as

mouldy cheese, stale bread,
parched bones, congealed blood.

Some of my favourite patterns
in that list.(LAUGHS)

As she moves through her story,

she becomes more and more

eloquent in her clothing choices

and

wears a ridiculously
wrong dress at court,

when she finally gets into
court, which is purple,

which is a complete taboo thing
to wear. Mm, that's a no no.

And she wears it in the
style of Elizabeth I.

But she's doing that to
get noticed? Oh, yeah.Yeah.

Everything she does
is... she's calculating.

See, this is the power of
clothes, isn't it? Absolutely.

What was the most surprising thing
to learn about Jacobean dress?

Other than the arm cages,
is there anything else?

The falling ruff, this
sort of strange transition

from wide sticky-outey ruff

to a soft falling ruff
that then developed

into these huge lacy collars.

Oh, that's where that comes from?
Yeah, because it all started off

with a little frill at
the neck in Tudor times.

And as people got
more extravagant,

the frill got bigger
and bigger and bigger,

and then it started flopping
down again. (LAUGHS)Yeah.

'I was seeing some real potential
in this iconic accessory,

and luckily enough,
just a few desks down,

I found Marija,
resident ruff maker

and authority on all
things frilly collar.'

What typifies a Jacobean ruff?

Everything you see before was
solid, very, very plain shape,

maybe with a little
trim around. Yeah.

And then from 1570s,
they started using lace.

Cool that men and women both had
them on, so it wasn't just the girls.

The guys were really giving
it their best shot as well.

Like Annie said, it
was a transition time

from this masculine Tudor stuff
into more baroque, feminine.

Everything just became
less rigid and square.

But also that might
be more a king

that's more open-minded
about these things.

Like, if Henry VIII is more
kind of like, "I'm a dude."

Yeah. "And I'm big,"
but old mate James

is more like, "Meh. Let's enjoy
some snacks and then we'll shag."

James I seems more masculine in
a way, in the fact that he's able

to dress more effeminately.
He's probably more confident.

This is George's collar.

That's actually back
to front. Oh, my God.

(LAUGHS) Mortified!

This is upside down. Oh,
my God. Come on then.

'Next, Annie was taking
me to meet David,

the principal costume
cutter.' Very noble.

'I couldn't help but get a little
bit distracted along the way.'

It feels right. That's amazing.

Ah, we found him.

How is Jacobean men's fashion
different to the women's?

In terms of, like,
societal position,

they were running the show, so
they didn't need the dresses,

the cumbersome dresses. Their
costume and their fashion was

a bit more wearable.
Still, this silhouette was

extreme compared to
what it is today.

This is for George.
This is our main boy.

So Nick is wearing this. The
main body or the main jacket

was the doublet, and that would
be worn as a modern-day jacket.

Yeah. Clothing was expensive,
so normal men of the time

could only afford, say, one
doublet or maybe two doublets.

But then they would say,
"Let's order six more sleeves."

Oh, great! So it's
like a modular outfit.

A bit like a kind of modern
capsule wardrobe. Yeah!

The line of it is sort of
like a modern leather jacket.

Yeah. Like a biker jacket. So
we've softened the silhouette

a little bit and looked to try and
bring in modern interpretations.

That's also the thing
which we need to remember.

We've been interpreting a Jacobean
silhouette for a modern body.

All of our body shapes as men
and are completely different

to what they were in
Jacobean times. In what way?

More athletic, more
broad shoulders,

taller as well, so

it's been quite interesting

trying to explain the silhouette
to our actors as well,

because the shape is not something
that we see in modern day.

I googled George Villiers

just to see what he looked
like and found a portrait where

he looks like he's wearing,
like, a black leather jacket,

barnacled in pearls?
Yeah. They loved pearls.

The pearl was a symbol
of their might at sea.

And they're beautiful and
also they're light-emitting

and it was Queen Anne's favourite
jewel as well, apparently.

I like the idea that George might
have been conquered by James.

That's why he's got so many

pearls on his
costume. (LAUGHS) Yes.

It's also got a bit of
a Blackadder vibe to it.

(LAUGHTER)

Once seen, never
unseen. Exactly.

'Leaving the makers in
peace to work their craft,

it was finally time for what
I'd really come here for.'

We're looking for
a dress to try on.

Can I nick that?

Do I need underpants?

I'm going to get changed
and when I come back,

I'm going to be a
dazzling Jacobean lady.

Dazzled. Come on in.

This chemise is soft as butter.

I'm just into how it looks now.

It's so comfy, the bum roll. I
feel like you could sit anywhere

and it would be cosy.
Junk in the trunk there.

Oof. Lovely!

It just feels like
you're being held.

So it's not uncomfortable,
it's actually quite reassuring.

It's like being
swaddled as a baby.

♪ I'm just a lonely
Jacobean woman... ♪

(BLOWS KISS)

'Another day, another
glorious trailer.'

WOMAN: (KNOCKING) Alexa, hair and
makeup are ready for you! Thank you.

'Time to get to work.'

For the period that we're
doing, the Jacobean,

ladies wouldn't wear
makeup. Really?!

It was more prostitutes
that would use it.(GASPS)

Oh, my God. So our aim
is to make you look

flawless, cos that
was the fashion.

Very pale. If you were tanned,

you were perceived as working
outdoors or a labourer,

whereas pale skin indicates
that you live indoors.

You have servants, people
to do everything for you.

And how pale would they go? Is
it... As pale as they could be.

Similar to Elizabethan
times? Like those pictures

of Queen Elizabeth we
see with, like, white...

She used a white
lead on her skin,

but unfortunately
that ate the skin

and it poisoned the wearer.

So they had other things
like ground up rice

or starch powder that they
would mix to make base.

There was no commercial
products as such.

Behind me, I noticed a photograph
of a guy with a silver nose on.

That is the advanced
stage of syphilis,

and it would eat all the
soft bones of your face.

So your nose would
be eaten away.

You would go mad because it ate
the brain, so the pewter nose

is because he's
lost his nose. Wow.

Paul, I love the makeup so much.

Can we add a wig so I can have
the full experience? Yes, indeed.

So the fashion was to have

some height at the front,
keep it flat on top,

and then a bun at the back,
and that was almost universal.

The influence came
from the French court.

So Britain followed
French fashions. Classic.

So we've prepped one
here for you. Great.

Which we'll put on now to complete
the effect. I'm so jazzed.

In our story, we have
Queen Anne of Denmark.

She was the wife
of King James I.

They didn't live
together or anything,

they had a very distant
relationship, but her hairdos

which we have here,
were very, very high,

which we achieve
with a cage inside.

Amazing. That denoted a status.

So other courtiers would never
have hair as big as she did.

They weren't allowed or it
just... It just wasn't done.Right.

And later on in this century,

it became a real
thing in society

that the bigger your hair,
the more important you were.

"The higher the hair, the closer
to God," as Dolly Parton once said.

That's right. Just put your
fingers underneath, if you could.

That's it and get it on
there at the front.(GASPS)

Oh, my God, and I'm
blonde! (LAUGHS)

A lot of dreams coming
true today for me.

(LAUGHTER) (GASPS)

Don't think of Mickey
Mouse. Oh, I love it!

Wow!

I think I was born in the wrong
time. This might be my look.

'To set, for my long-awaited
period drama debut.

Turns out I wasn't actually needed,
and Queen Anne wanted her hair back,

so here we are.

Deflated hair aside, I was
thrilled to find myself

in the grounds of Crowhurst Place,
a sprawling English residence

dating back to
the 15th century.'

I actually am genuinely
interested in interiors.

And this is like the dream house

from the outside, so I'm
kind of gagging to get in.

If the clothes are anything to go by,
maybe they quite like chintzy fabrics

and, like, opulent, decadent things.
But actually, do you know what?

It's looking kind of
medieval in there.

'The house is one of many
featured in Mary & George,

where a size able art department
have been breathing life

back into banqueting
halls and bed chambers...'

This is very beautiful.
That's amazing, the carving.

Oh, my God. Oh, yeah.

'..allowing us a glimpse
of Jacobean times

in their full
post-medieval glory.'

Wow. You've got a fireplace.

I'll take it. This is
where I want to stay now.

Just the height is
insane, isn't it? Yeah.

This to us is Mary's London
residence. She's made it big time.

Is it a typical Jacobean house?

Short answer is no. It's
not a Jacobean house,

in that it wasn't built
in Jacobean period.

But that was quite a
short period of time.Yes.

Most people would have been
living in houses that were...

Built much earlier? Like, now my
house is from, like, the 1800s,

but obviously that's not
how I've kept it, sadly.

But for someone that's a bit of a
novice when it comes to sort of...

Jacobean interiors, what might
a signifier be of that era?

So Jacobean interior,
they were really

into things looking flashy,

It was... sort of
renaissance interiors.

A lot of wood carving.

A lot of specialist detail.

Let's just say that I'm

a very wealthy Jacobean person

and I've moved into these
beautiful dwellings.

What kind of thing could I
look at in terms of decoration?

Your friends are going to
think you're quite flash

because you've got a lot of
glass, which was very expensive.

On occasion, people would take
them out if they were going away

on a long trip because they
were like a hot commodity.

'It takes a leap of imagination
to picture a scenario

where one might take
a window on holiday.

Series director Oliver Hermanus
conjured up an entire world

within these harsh limitations.'

A lot of our locations I'd walk into
and I couldn't stand up straight.

Life was pretty grim
if you were poor.

We dirtied everyone's teeth and
we dirtied everyone's fingernails,

including Mary's. I mean, I think
that's an interesting thing,

is that there was
an extreme. Mmm.

The vast majority of people were
not having a great time.Yeah.

So you understand
the desire to climb.

Once our story enters
the court of the king

and the main characters
are around the king a lot,

the king's life is full
of hunting and banquets

and he turned his world
into this opulence.

It was very unbridled,
which I kind of love.

When it came to entertainment,

what would they have
for their guests?

A lot of food and the
food is interesting.

Our food economist really
took this very seriously.

Right. And sometimes I
would say that on the set...

We have a scene where the
king visits Mary's house

for the first time, and there's
this U-shaped table full of food.

Everything that we made, we
really made. So this was all done

in the sort of traditional
way they would've done it.

They could have anything
from, like, 5 to 12 courses.

Lamb, boar, venison,

even things like peacocks.

They would eat peacocks?
They would eat peacocks.

It would just be such
an extravagant affair.

You'd have like the head
table and then you'd have

separate tables for perhaps
people that were less noble

or close to the family
that were hosting.

Candelabras everywhere. Mmm.

You'd even have
musicians coming in,

theatrical things
going on. Brilliant.

So it was a vibrant
and exciting thing.

And as the drinks flow,

the party just...
it just continues.

Wine was very French. There was
also the sort of tension of wine

because they didn't really like
the French. I like the idea

of them going, "Sorry, are you
drinking... Is that a wine?"

Get it out of here. He's not
gonna like this."(LAUGHS)

James I spent so much time in
France. He was kind of French,

and so he loved his wine. So we
play into that with the king,

and then there are the live
musicians who are in the background,

and I can't imagine how hard
that must have been for them,

because there's no sort of,
like, volume button on...

(LAUGHTER)

on the playlist.Right. So it
must've just been very noisy.

This is the viola da gamba.
"Da gamba" means legs,

so the way you play it,
it goes between the legs.

That is how you hold the bow.
Oh! So your finger is always

touching the string.
Love. If you don't mind,

I'm just going to
(PLAYS DULL NOTE)

entertain myself for a
while. (CONTINUES PLAYING)

'Having tried my hardest, I seem
to have failed to land myself

a gig in Mary & George. So
it was back to the day job.

Beyond the backstabbing
and banqueting, the other

ever-present theme in this
odyssey through Jacobean England

is... sex.

What I've gleaned thus far is that
the power of sexual desire has played

a huge but under
reported part in history.

Luckily for us, contemporary sleuths
like sex historian Kate Lister

are throwing back the sheets
to reveal a much fuller picture

of what was really going on
in the bed chambers of those

who shaped our modern world.'

Why is it important
to look at sex

from the perspective of a
historian in particular?

Well, how important
is sex today?

Right? It's something that we still
obsess about and we talk about

and we endlessly pore
over and people research.

Everyone's got opinions.
Well, it's been like that

as long as people have
been having sex.Yeah.

So it's important that we
know, first of all, what,

or as close as we can get
to know what was going on

in people's bedrooms of
yore, but how we've ended up

where we are right now.
Yeah. That's important.

How have the attitudes
that we have today

have they always been the same or
have they changed? Like, what...

How were gay, bisexual people
viewed in the past? Yeah.

And that's really,
really important.

I think understanding sex,

that's how you understand humans
and human history.Absolutely.

Can you paint a sort
of broad picture for us

about what sex lives were
like in the Jacobean era?

It depends who you were.
Money always talks.

So the more money, the more power,
the more influence you have,

the more sex or... whatever
it is that you want to do,

you can do that, but there were
very strict punishments in place

for regular, everyday people.
The church said things like,

"You can't have sex
on Advent or Lent

or Wednesdays or Sundays

or feast days or
before menstruation

or after menstruation or
after you've been pregnant."

Like, when you actually add
it all up, you could have sex

like two days a year.
Only in ovulation.

Yep. (CHUCKLES)They're like,
"It is for getting pregnant."

That's what they taught.
"It's for getting pregnant

and have as little fun as possible
while you're actually having it."

That was the church's take. Now,
that doesn't mean anyone listened.

'In Mary & George,
rule-breaking is turned

into something of an art
form, presenting a new vision

of Jacobean sexuality captured from
a distinctly modern perspective.'

How did you design the
sexual cadence of the show?

The characters are very
sexually liberated.

It's the characters do not
hesitate in having sex.

With George and
the king, you know,

when we meet the king, all we
know is that he likes orgies

and there are lots of
orgies that we shot.

And that was a journey
for me in terms of

inventing many different
sexual positions.

(LAUGHTER) You were like,
"We've done that one."

Yeah. "Sorry." You could
do bingo with it, maybe.

Our intimacy coordinator
literally had to come

with, like, loads of
diagrams and... (LAUGHS)

"We've done that one." I
love the idea of everyone

looking at that being
like, "Wow, OK."

In fact, the very last day that
Tony and Nick worked together,

it was a scene with me and it
was them having sex under a tree.

And because we'd been shooting
for six months, we were literally

all stood there going, "What
haven't we done?" (LAUGHS)

We've been very
excited about the fact

that we've... hopefully
will show the world

the many different ways
two men can have sex.

So in the show, there's a
lot of bonking going on.

There's orgies, there's
everyone sort of at it.

Everyone's got side lovers.
How accurate is that

in terms of history? (LAUGHS)
We're not the first ones

to have invented sex. There would
certainly have been mass orgies

occurring somewhere and people
having all kinds of sex.

We just don't have the
documents to prove it.

It's very rare to find, like, an
'I went to an orgy' ticket slip.

(LAUGHS) in the 17th
century, that we go,

"That definitely happened." Yeah.
It's really easy to look at the past

and think that everyone was
really repressed and prudish,

but these people would have been
a lot more familiar with sex

and naked bodies than
we are today in ways

that we can't really conceive
of. Like space, for example.

Families would probably
be growing up in one room.

So you would probably

have been aware of
your parents having sex

cos they'd have been
in the bed next to you.

You would certainly have
seen everybody naked.

And if you went into work,
like, if you were a servant

or something like that,
you'd be sharing rooms

and sharing close quarters, so you
would see people getting undressed.

You would probably see
people having sex in ways

that today would be a
little bit strange to us.

Yeah, I guess just by
proximity. By proximity, right.

'Sadly, no tickets to
the orgy were available.

So I've gone with
the next best option:

A trip to a very glamorous studio
where King James and George

took a minute out of their
busy lovemaking schedule

to reflect upon their
characters' expansive sex lives

where spouses and lovers were
all carefully attended to.'

What are the main things I can
learn about sex and relationships

in the Jacobean era?
The more the merrier.

(LAUGHS) I'd say that's...

It's OK to have a threesome.
Don't limit it at three.

Don't limit yourself to...
Bump those numbers up.

Those are rookie numbers.
Monogamy... At least 12, 13 people.

You want to get lost in
limbs. It's a snake pit.

It's a snake pit. James, at
the time when I first read it,

he was obviously a
man who was fluid.

You know, I had a
wife, Anne of Denmark.

He had nine children. Three
only made it to adulthood.

Obviously there was a
marriage of convenience there,

but his sensuality,
his sexuality,

he liked men and he
fell in love with,

you know, not a handful,
but he had his favourites.

At the time, there
was no terminology.

People just did what they did.

And I guess because
he was the king,

he was not a fan of politics. He
was not a fan of going to court.

He was a fan of hunting,
he was a fan of the arts,

of writing, and he was a
fan of making love, I guess.

He was a very modern
man. There you go.

Fuck me alive again.

In the 1600s, was there the
identity politics around

that exist today? They
didn't have language.

Like today, you'd say, "I
am gay" or you'd come out.

Gay today is an
identity, your sexuality.

You'd say, "I'm straight, I'm
gay, I'm bi," whatever it is.

When we talk about this
period in the 17th century,

it's not so much
part of your identity

so much as something
that you do.

But that doesn't mean
that there wasn't

what we now call the
gay community. Mm-hm.

We know that there was
language being used.

Catamite, sodomite, mollies
was a very affectionate term,

used within the queer community.
Lesbians were known as

tribades and fricatrices.
So there were...

Come again?
Fricatrice. (CHUCKLES)

Fricatrices... Yeah,
friction. Oh, great.

So we know that this language
existed. We know that these

communities existed,
but it wasn't

as open as it is
today. But people knew.

Like, there were satirical
pamphlets about James

and his many lovers
written all the time.

Like, courtiers talk
about it, joke about it.

There was an ongoing joke at the
time of Elizabeth was the king,

and now James is the
queen. Oh!(FEIGNS LAUGHTER)

And then they all fall
about laughing. So it was...

I fell for it too.
Right? It's very clever.

(LAUGHTER)

Were you surprised to learn
that about Jacobean times?

That they were so fluid? The sort
of fluidity? Yeah, I think so,

because I think we obviously,
you know, as modern people

in the 21st century,
we consider ourselves,

you know, at the
forefront of being

liberal and conceptual
about all these things.Yes.

For George, it's like his sex

and his ability to be so fluid,

you know, it's his
power in a lot of ways,

his ability to kind of
slip into... you know,

different modes to accomplish
what he needed to accomplish.

What do you think
his motivation is?

He's driven by this
matriarch in Mary, you know?

He is... Everything he
does is to kind of achieve

some semblance of
validation in Mary's eyes.

But then I think
as he goes along,

he realises that he can
attain power by himself,

and then it just becomes this
voracious appetite for the wealth

and, you know, climbing
within this court, you know?

The higher you climb, the
more that is possible and...

The more you get laid. A
bonk fest. It's a bonk fest.

What's your take on
their relationship?

In the beginning, when I read
the show and I got to understand

the nature of King James,

he sort of... you meet him as
a sort of buffoon in a sense.

The first time you
meet him, he's naked

and walking around with an
erection in episode one.

But by episode three and four,
he deepens as a character

and you realise that he's
a very complicated man

and he does very
much love George.

And then from George's
side, you sense

that he too is in love
with James in his way.Mm.

And I remember when we
researched the show,

we were made aware of these letters
that James had sent George over time

and the nature of those letters
and the language of those letters,

are very clearly a
love relationship.

I think the letters I wrote,
he was deeply in love.

He was in love with a
few men in his time.

There was a gentleman in Scotland
called Lord Lennox as well.

I think his romantic exploits

and sensual sexual exploits were
an escapism, most definitely.

And plus, the fact that, you
know, his father was blown up,

Lord Darnley. His mother,
Mary, Queen of Scots

was decapitated by
Queen Elizabeth,

and he was raised by a bunch
of men, a bunch of regents.

They all wanted a piece of him,
you know? So it is very much...

Just got to fuck the
pain away. Yeah.(LAUGHS)

Heavy sleeps the head that
wears the crown, as it were.

If I am Prometheus,

you are the eagle plucking
at my liver.(MEN LAUGH)

King James I obviously
partial to a male love affair.

How did that influence his
decisions in terms of lawmaking?

He actually strengthens
the sodomy laws.

He argues that there shouldn't
be any room for interpretation

in these cases, that judges should
just execute people straight away.

But I thought it was like an
open secret to those around him

that he was enjoying this.
He doesn't seem to have been

particularly ashamed of
this at all, and yet,

when it comes to other
people, he was vicious.

The fact that he was
falling in love with men,

I thought of that era as
being kind of more open.

So we know that by
the 18th century,

there is a molly house
culture in London.

It probably existed
much before that.

We just don't have the records.
A molly house wasn't quite

a brothel, it wasn't
quite a tavern.

It was somewhere between them.

This is an underground, secretive,
marginalised group of people

who will pay a huge
price if they get caught.

And was it only for queer
people? It was for queer men.

A woman wasn't allowed
to go into a bar.

We know that women were having
sex with women, definitely.

I'd have put money on it, that there
were lesbian gatherings of women,

but it would've been behind closed
doors and you'd have to know someone

who knew someone who knew somebody.
They were just better at hiding it.

'Reflective of this feminine
cunning in Mary & George,

Mary is having her own
illicit love affair

across forbidden lines
of gender and class.'

Mary, particularly, is probably
the more exciting journey, I guess,

as a character, because you make
an assumption, I think, about

her sexuality at the start of the
show and she kind of defies that

and her major love relationship
in the show is with another woman.

The sexual nature of it
is incredibly liberated

and exploratory
and unapologetic.

Mary's conducting a little
business in a brothel,

and she meets this
enchanting young woman

played by Niamh
Algar named Sandie.

She challenges her
and interests her

and they end up in a
relationship together.

And it's interesting that
there's this tenderness

with a female relationship that
she maybe doesn't experience

through her male relationships.
Right. I think she feels

a sense of equality with her.

And in a society and in a
world where she feels so,

so dominated by the male figures
in her life and so powerless,

here she meets someone
who recognises her

for what she is and is able
to kind of meet her head on.

Were you surprised when
you first got this script

to see sexuality in the Jacobean
era being represented in this way?

No. (LAUGHTER)

You're like, "Humans are
humans." I think people have sex.

Yeah. I mean, I think
that's the thing, right?

None of us would be here
if they didn't. (LAUGHS)

Why then has history,

or mainstream history
kind of focussed on this

sort of straight
perspective, then?

Why has so much of
it been eradicated?

History tends to be told from the
perspective of people who write it,

and throughout most of our
history, the people repeating it

have been within a very
heteronormative society.

Even if they thought
they were gay,

they'd probably struggle
to actually say that.

"You're going to out
the king? Are you?"Yeah.

You know? So it's not that... I
mean, it has been straight-washed.

It has. And we're now in the
process of reclaiming it.

But I think maybe we're just
ready to have those conversations

in a way that that we
haven't been before.Mm.

How important do you think
it is to have this incredible

historical queer
story living today?

For me personally, of
course, it's really important

to make inclusive stories
where we look back in history

and tell stories in a
way that includes people

and highlights the fact
that our assumptions

about the past aren't as
clear as we thought they were.

So that's really fun. But
I also think it's important

to not drive that home too much
because I think the real sign

of inclusion is to not have
to label it all the time.

Right. And Mary
& George does not

spend its time trying to educate
the audience about queerness

or trying to advertise
it as a primary.

I think what's really great
about it is that we make it

as part of it and it's not
the reason for the show

and the nature of the
characters in the show

are allowed to be who they are
and we don't vilify them for it

and we don't sort of highlight
them in a way that makes it seem

like we're trying to
be preachy about it.

What do you think is so important
about bringing stories like this

to the screen? I think they're
entertaining, for one thing.

I think that people really,
really love historical fiction.

It's a lot of fun. It's a
kind of way to have one foot

in actual history and
another foot in fantasy.

You know, it is storytelling
and it's beautiful.

It's sumptuously done. The
production design is gorgeous.

The costumes are
wonderful. Hair and makeup,

all of the terrific actors. I
think it's a lot of fun to watch,

but it's also illuminating because
I think this is a period of time

that people aren't terribly
familiar with.Yeah.

Now that you've had distance
from playing this character,

do you have a perception of
Mary and whether she was kind of

this social climbing person

or whether she should be kind of

more notable in history and someone
that's a bit of an iconoclast?

I think it's interesting
what she achieved

in a time when women couldn't
even own property.Yeah.

And the fact that she
actually managed to be buried

in Westminster Abbey? That's
a pretty amazing achievement.

When you think about where
she came from and what she did

and actually how she set up each
and every one of her children

for success, it's
pretty remarkable.

So I guess the Jacobeans,
not too dissimilar from us.

They loved frolicking
and fashion,

major parties. They
were all so open-minded

in this attitude towards
sex and sexuality,

really in keeping
with modern times.

And then we've got this new
vision of the royal family.

King James I, lover of
banquets and beautiful men,

including his much younger
male lover, George Villiers,

who's managed to social climb to
this position of incredible power.

And then there's Mary Villiers, who
went on this incredible journey,

ending up being buried at Westminster
Abbey among kings and queens,

having a portrait of herself,
albeit very, very tiny,

stored here at the
National Portrait Gallery.

I'm pleased that I got
to learn more about her.

'As my excursion through
Jacobean England draws to an end,

I'm more acutely aware that the
past has been selectively recounted

by those telling the stories.

What's clear is that history is
less a static record of facts,

but rather an ever-shifting
series of stories,

a multiverse of
interpretations of artefacts

left behind by our predecessors.

So all it takes is a fresh lens
from a different perspective

and a new version of our
past, this time with Mary

and George Villiers
centre stage, emerges.'

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