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For about the last
30 hours, we here at NBC News
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00:00:29,558 --> 00:00:31,260
have been trying to
establish what happened
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00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,903
last night in Guyana on
the northern coast of South
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00:00:34,003 --> 00:00:36,666
America.
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00:00:36,766 --> 00:00:38,788
The searching
American soldiers have
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00:00:38,888 --> 00:00:42,352
finished counting the
bodies in Jonestown, Guyana.
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00:00:42,452 --> 00:00:48,679
910 died in the poison ritual
of the Peoples Temple last week.
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00:00:48,779 --> 00:00:50,601
Among the bodies
were those of the temple's
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fanatical founder, the
Reverend Jim Jones, his wife,
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00:00:53,424 --> 00:00:57,008
and at least one
of their children.
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00:00:57,108 --> 00:00:59,250
Most had reportedly
stood in line
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00:00:59,350 --> 00:01:05,016
to take doses of cyanide-laced
Kool-Aid from a large tub.
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00:01:10,922 --> 00:01:14,386
People want to blame
Jim Jones for the deaths,
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00:01:14,486 --> 00:01:19,111
and certainly, in many
respects, it was his vision.
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00:01:19,211 --> 00:01:21,213
But he couldn't have
done it by himself.
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00:01:31,384 --> 00:01:35,248
Carolyn,
Maria Katsaris, Annie Moore,
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00:01:35,348 --> 00:01:36,610
Marceline--
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00:01:36,710 --> 00:01:37,971
they're Jim's girls.
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00:01:38,071 --> 00:01:40,073
They're almost as
untouchable as Jim.
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00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,182
My sisters
were certainly involved
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00:01:48,282 --> 00:01:50,465
in planning the deaths.
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00:01:50,565 --> 00:01:51,826
They were true believers.
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00:01:51,926 --> 00:01:53,948
They were in the
leadership group.
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00:01:54,048 --> 00:01:55,070
They were on board.
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00:01:55,170 --> 00:01:56,751
That's for sure.
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00:02:01,416 --> 00:02:04,079
At the
end, his nurses and mistresses
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00:02:04,179 --> 00:02:07,283
and secretaries were the
ones who arranged things,
30
00:02:07,383 --> 00:02:11,047
so it wasn't that Jim did was a
mastermind and did everything.
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00:02:11,147 --> 00:02:14,170
I lay the
suicide decision solidly
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00:02:14,270 --> 00:02:16,833
at the feet of that inner
circle that made it happen.
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00:03:04,964 --> 00:03:08,308
There was
really true goodness in Mom,
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00:03:08,408 --> 00:03:11,951
and I think Dad was latching on
to something that made him more
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00:03:12,051 --> 00:03:13,153
respectable.
36
00:03:13,253 --> 00:03:16,516
And I'm sure he adored her then.
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00:03:16,616 --> 00:03:19,399
He thought, wow, she's
going to make me--
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00:03:19,499 --> 00:03:20,641
she makes me better.
39
00:03:27,188 --> 00:03:28,409
I met Jim Jones when
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00:03:28,509 --> 00:03:30,731
he was an orderly in the
hospital where I was in nurse's
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00:03:30,831 --> 00:03:32,834
training.
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00:03:37,238 --> 00:03:40,622
I knew there was something
special about him.
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00:03:40,722 --> 00:03:42,945
I saw greatness.
44
00:03:43,045 --> 00:03:46,028
In Mom's case,
she saw the beauty in him.
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00:03:46,128 --> 00:03:48,791
She saw this big,
fat, juicy heart,
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00:03:48,891 --> 00:03:52,414
and she felt like she
could make him better.
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00:03:55,458 --> 00:03:57,280
We had been
married about two years when
48
00:03:57,380 --> 00:04:02,005
he decided to become a
minister of the gospel.
49
00:04:02,105 --> 00:04:04,928
We had no money, and so
Jim borrowed the money
50
00:04:05,028 --> 00:04:08,732
to put a down payment on
the church in Indiana.
51
00:04:08,832 --> 00:04:11,355
And that was the
first Peoples Temple.
52
00:04:14,318 --> 00:04:16,300
Heaven was
created by poor people that
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00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,703
were working cotton fields
and working in mines
54
00:04:18,803 --> 00:04:20,304
and living in hell.
55
00:04:20,404 --> 00:04:25,510
Peoples Temple in its Indiana
stage was not yet a cult.
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00:04:25,610 --> 00:04:29,434
Jim and Marceline
were the kinds of Christians
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00:04:29,534 --> 00:04:32,918
who felt very committed to
a social justice gospel,
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00:04:33,018 --> 00:04:34,680
and so they took
it upon themselves
59
00:04:34,780 --> 00:04:38,163
to create this
multicultural family.
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00:04:38,263 --> 00:04:41,407
They adopted a couple
of children from Asia.
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00:04:41,507 --> 00:04:44,250
They gave birth to
a son, and then they
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00:04:44,350 --> 00:04:46,252
adopted a Black child.
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00:04:46,352 --> 00:04:48,214
In fact, they were
the first white couple
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00:04:48,314 --> 00:04:50,777
that had ever adopted a
Black child in Indiana
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00:04:50,877 --> 00:04:54,060
up to that time.
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00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,144
We were spoken of
as the rainbow family,
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00:04:57,244 --> 00:05:03,951
but everything Dad
did was to impress.
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00:05:04,051 --> 00:05:05,913
You could've adopted
a-- a Black child
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00:05:06,013 --> 00:05:08,836
without it having
to be a big show
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00:05:08,936 --> 00:05:10,798
and tell everybody about it.
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00:05:10,898 --> 00:05:15,123
He was always aware
of who was noticing
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00:05:15,223 --> 00:05:19,367
and what they thought
of what he was doing.
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00:05:19,467 --> 00:05:23,532
Mom was more genuine in her
compassion, more genuine
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00:05:23,632 --> 00:05:32,822
in her action, whereas Dad's
was ostentatious and dramatic.
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00:05:32,922 --> 00:05:34,624
Jim wanted to have
the kind of family
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00:05:34,724 --> 00:05:36,786
that people would
look at and say,
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00:05:36,886 --> 00:05:42,472
how dare you fly in the face
of white conventional society?
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00:05:42,572 --> 00:05:45,655
And he actually liked
courting antagonism.
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00:05:50,901 --> 00:05:53,163
I don't know what
Marceline's motivations were
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00:05:53,263 --> 00:05:55,085
except that they called
her Mother Jones.
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00:05:55,185 --> 00:05:57,808
She felt herself to be a mother
not just to her own children
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00:05:57,908 --> 00:05:59,610
but to the whole community.
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00:05:59,710 --> 00:06:03,214
That was one of the main
connectors between her and Jim
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00:06:03,314 --> 00:06:06,618
Jones religiously, was this
belief that God was actually
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00:06:06,718 --> 00:06:11,383
calling you to include more
people within your community.
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00:06:11,483 --> 00:06:14,626
Ultimately, it was decided that
they could do more of what they
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00:06:14,726 --> 00:06:17,229
wanted to do,
which was reach out
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00:06:17,329 --> 00:06:19,471
to vulnerable,
disenfranchised people
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00:06:19,571 --> 00:06:21,573
if they moved to
northern California.
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00:06:24,617 --> 00:06:29,242
I don't believe that they
knew when they left Indiana
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00:06:29,342 --> 00:06:33,126
that they were going to
create such a large movement.
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00:06:35,108 --> 00:06:38,171
In retrospect, the time
for her to have gotten out
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00:06:38,271 --> 00:06:39,092
would have been Indiana.
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00:06:54,569 --> 00:06:58,072
My sister Carolyn
Layton moved to Redwood Valley
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00:06:58,172 --> 00:07:01,156
in the late '60s with her
husband, Larry Layton,
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00:07:01,256 --> 00:07:04,199
and they started telling
us about this great church
97
00:07:04,299 --> 00:07:06,281
that they were attending.
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00:07:06,381 --> 00:07:07,683
I owe
something to my people,
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00:07:07,783 --> 00:07:08,884
and that's to be a good pastor.
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00:07:08,984 --> 00:07:09,645
And that I am.
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00:07:14,149 --> 00:07:16,732
The minister seemed to be
able to perform faith healings
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00:07:16,832 --> 00:07:18,374
and miracles.
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00:07:18,474 --> 00:07:21,257
The group was interracial,
and it was integrated.
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00:07:21,357 --> 00:07:23,299
They were committed
to social justice,
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00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:25,542
and these were all the things
that Carolyn had been looking
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00:07:25,642 --> 00:07:27,644
for.
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00:07:29,286 --> 00:07:31,268
Carolyn was passionately
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00:07:31,368 --> 00:07:35,392
engaged and wanting to have
social justice happen now,
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00:07:35,492 --> 00:07:38,516
and I think that her
feeling of urgency
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00:07:38,616 --> 00:07:42,720
met up with this brand new kind
of understanding of what church
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00:07:42,820 --> 00:07:46,524
could be when she walked
into Peoples Temple.
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00:07:46,624 --> 00:07:49,888
God is a
socialist [inaudible]..
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00:07:49,988 --> 00:07:51,569
He is one of the people.
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00:07:51,669 --> 00:07:55,534
He's an instrument of
all that you ever desire,
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00:07:55,634 --> 00:08:00,259
all that freedom embraces,
all that justice embodies.
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00:08:00,359 --> 00:08:02,221
I think
that Carolyn and so many
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00:08:02,321 --> 00:08:04,223
of those people that
joined in the late '60s
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00:08:04,323 --> 00:08:09,028
felt they were
building a new society.
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00:08:09,128 --> 00:08:11,070
It seemed to
be an activist church that
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00:08:11,170 --> 00:08:17,437
was actually working to
change people's lives.
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00:08:17,537 --> 00:08:20,000
They had homes for people
who'd been released
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00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:21,401
from the mental hospital.
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00:08:21,501 --> 00:08:24,244
They had places for
senior citizens to live.
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00:08:24,344 --> 00:08:26,246
They had a ranch.
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00:08:26,346 --> 00:08:28,929
They were doing a lot of
things, and it was quite clear
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00:08:29,029 --> 00:08:33,174
that it was worthwhile work.
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00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:11,054
As is often the case
with charismatic leaders,
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00:09:11,154 --> 00:09:16,700
followers begin to get a lot
of feelings of loyalty and love
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00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,822
flowing not just
from the movement
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00:09:18,922 --> 00:09:23,187
but to the head of the movement
as well, and so at some point,
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00:09:23,287 --> 00:09:26,651
Jim and Carolyn began having
a physical sexual affair.
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00:09:30,815 --> 00:09:33,598
I remember, my
dad took me out for a drive,
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00:09:33,698 --> 00:09:35,200
just me and him.
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00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:35,961
I was young.
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00:09:36,061 --> 00:09:37,402
I was 11, 12.
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00:09:37,502 --> 00:09:39,925
I felt really
special and wonderful
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00:09:40,025 --> 00:09:41,687
and nice to have time with him.
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00:09:41,787 --> 00:09:44,770
That was a rare
thing with my father.
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00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:47,933
I adored him.
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00:09:48,033 --> 00:09:55,141
And we ended up at Carolyn's
house, and I was introduced.
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00:09:55,241 --> 00:10:00,147
He was just beside himself
just with joy and just lit up.
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00:10:00,247 --> 00:10:03,430
She was the new woman.
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00:10:03,530 --> 00:10:06,313
I wanted to like her.
144
00:10:06,413 --> 00:10:11,198
I wanted what she had, whatever
it is she had that he clearly
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00:10:11,298 --> 00:10:14,642
adored, because I didn't
feel that from him,
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00:10:14,742 --> 00:10:17,605
nor did I see him give
that to my mother.
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00:10:17,705 --> 00:10:19,407
They ended up in her room.
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00:10:19,507 --> 00:10:21,890
I'm on the sofa right
outside their room.
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00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:23,772
I can hear what's
going on in there.
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00:10:23,872 --> 00:10:25,774
At first, I'm wondering
what the heck it is,
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00:10:25,874 --> 00:10:27,376
and then I realise it's them.
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00:10:27,476 --> 00:10:31,140
And then when they finish,
she sings a song to him
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00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,242
that I can hear
through the walls.
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00:10:36,886 --> 00:10:41,471
It wasn't long after that that I
came upon my mother distraught,
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00:10:41,571 --> 00:10:44,674
and I asked her what
was going on with her.
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00:10:44,774 --> 00:10:46,075
She wouldn't tell me.
157
00:10:46,175 --> 00:10:49,299
Eventually, she did tell me
that she knew about Carolyn.
158
00:10:52,182 --> 00:10:54,084
I could not believe my
father would tell her,
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00:10:54,184 --> 00:10:58,088
so I figured she was just kind
of guessing it or putting two
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00:10:58,188 --> 00:11:00,931
and two together and
somehow speculating.
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00:11:01,031 --> 00:11:03,134
There's no way she
could really know.
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00:11:03,234 --> 00:11:06,257
So the way she just put
it to bed for me is she--
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00:11:06,357 --> 00:11:11,843
she hummed the song that Carolyn
sang to him after they had sex.
164
00:11:15,367 --> 00:11:17,309
Marceline Jones was aware
165
00:11:17,409 --> 00:11:21,593
that Carolyn was Jim
Jones's mistress,
166
00:11:21,693 --> 00:11:23,796
but I actually don't think
of her as being a mistress.
167
00:11:23,896 --> 00:11:27,600
I actually think of her as being
the northern California wife.
168
00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:30,963
She was the wife that
represented this new educated
169
00:11:31,063 --> 00:11:35,648
group of people who had joined
with Jim and his grandiose idea
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00:11:35,748 --> 00:11:40,373
about transforming the world,
and I think, for a time,
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00:11:40,473 --> 00:11:44,097
it actually worked to the
benefit of a lot of people.
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00:11:44,197 --> 00:11:46,540
Part of the tragedy
of Peoples Temple
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00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,185
is that if we ended
the story in 1974,
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00:11:51,285 --> 00:11:53,828
we would probably
now be honouring
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00:11:53,928 --> 00:11:56,591
the great social justice
work of Peoples Temple.
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00:12:05,460 --> 00:12:07,402
Military officials
say that although they are not
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00:12:07,502 --> 00:12:09,805
remaining to continue
the search for survivors,
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00:12:09,905 --> 00:12:12,247
conditions in
Jonestown were so bad,
179
00:12:12,347 --> 00:12:14,389
they don't see how anyone
could still be alive.
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00:12:40,738 --> 00:12:43,681
It's now four
days since 400 suicides
181
00:12:43,781 --> 00:12:46,043
and killings, one of the
most astonishing stories
182
00:12:46,143 --> 00:12:48,145
of our time.
183
00:12:50,388 --> 00:12:51,930
Day by day, the newspaper
184
00:12:52,030 --> 00:12:54,312
would report that more
bodies were found.
185
00:12:57,876 --> 00:12:59,698
It's believed
that most of the cult members
186
00:12:59,798 --> 00:13:01,880
killed themselves, but some
may have been murdered.
187
00:13:04,803 --> 00:13:07,666
And I'm thinking,
my sisters were true believers.
188
00:13:07,766 --> 00:13:10,710
If anyone's dead,
they're going to be dead.
189
00:13:10,810 --> 00:13:14,754
And in fact, in my diary,
I had written, well,
190
00:13:14,854 --> 00:13:17,036
if they were responsible
for killing the children,
191
00:13:17,136 --> 00:13:19,138
then-- then I hope
that they are dead.
192
00:13:32,833 --> 00:13:37,939
Carolyn invited us to visit
her up in Redwood Valley.
193
00:13:38,039 --> 00:13:41,823
We traveled up, expecting
to see Carolyn and Larry.
194
00:13:41,923 --> 00:13:45,226
Instead, she was there with
a man who was introduced
195
00:13:45,326 --> 00:13:49,751
as her pastor, Jim Jones.
196
00:13:49,851 --> 00:13:52,334
My sister Annie and I
were sent out on a walk.
197
00:13:55,818 --> 00:13:59,522
When we got back, it was clear
that everyone had been crying,
198
00:13:59,622 --> 00:14:02,485
except maybe Jim, and that
something terrible had
199
00:14:02,585 --> 00:14:04,587
happened.
200
00:14:06,068 --> 00:14:08,771
On the way back in
the car, my parents
201
00:14:08,871 --> 00:14:12,856
disclosed that Carolyn and Larry
had gotten a quickie divorce,
202
00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:17,701
and Carolyn was in a
relationship with Jim.
203
00:14:17,801 --> 00:14:21,665
Needless to say, we were
devastated and shocked.
204
00:14:21,765 --> 00:14:23,948
My mother just couldn't
get over, well,
205
00:14:24,048 --> 00:14:26,951
why isn't Jim going
to marry Carolyn?
206
00:14:27,051 --> 00:14:30,314
They didn't realise the
dynamics of sex and power
207
00:14:30,414 --> 00:14:31,636
in Peoples Temple.
208
00:14:31,736 --> 00:14:34,599
Jim was not going
to marry my sister
209
00:14:34,699 --> 00:14:37,642
because Jim's wife,
Marceline, was much beloved
210
00:14:37,742 --> 00:14:39,744
by the congregation.
211
00:14:43,548 --> 00:14:46,732
Carolyn wrote a letter
to our family afterwards,
212
00:14:46,832 --> 00:14:50,896
explaining that his wife could
not relate to him, you know,
213
00:14:50,996 --> 00:14:53,900
sexually, and that was
why Carolyn was, you know,
214
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,545
stepping in to
provide that service.
215
00:14:58,645 --> 00:14:59,525
Perhaps you wonder
216
00:14:59,606 --> 00:15:02,068
why I talk so much about Jim.
217
00:15:02,168 --> 00:15:04,391
He is everything to me.
218
00:15:04,491 --> 00:15:07,034
Total acceptance and
communication make our love
219
00:15:07,134 --> 00:15:10,517
deeper than I thought
possible between two humans.
220
00:15:10,617 --> 00:15:15,362
Carolyn told us that Jim's
wife, Marceline, was totally OK
221
00:15:15,462 --> 00:15:17,204
with their relationship.
222
00:15:17,304 --> 00:15:20,168
So that was her
rationalisation to us,
223
00:15:20,268 --> 00:15:23,611
and I'm not sure that
I entirely believed it.
224
00:15:23,711 --> 00:15:25,413
I think even then I
might have thought,
225
00:15:25,513 --> 00:15:28,897
this sounds a little bit
like a self-justification,
226
00:15:28,997 --> 00:15:31,860
but nevertheless, that's what
Carolyn was telling herself.
227
00:15:33,522 --> 00:15:35,063
Marcy has
been mentally disturbed
228
00:15:35,163 --> 00:15:38,627
since childhood, but she has
actually been better since Jim
229
00:15:38,727 --> 00:15:40,729
and I have been leading.
230
00:15:42,411 --> 00:15:45,715
As Marcy herself will explain,
Jim was completely faithful
231
00:15:45,815 --> 00:15:47,817
to a sick woman for 20 years.
232
00:15:50,860 --> 00:15:53,883
She needed to
believe Mom was OK with it.
233
00:15:53,983 --> 00:15:59,409
There was an element
of prestige, I guess,
234
00:15:59,509 --> 00:16:02,292
that came along with that.
235
00:16:02,392 --> 00:16:04,395
It certainly made
her feel special.
236
00:16:06,637 --> 00:16:10,541
This is the great leader
of the organisations that's
237
00:16:10,641 --> 00:16:14,345
going to change the world,
and he picked me, you know?
238
00:16:14,445 --> 00:16:16,447
That's intoxicating.
239
00:16:19,491 --> 00:16:22,474
You know, Carolyn
was not the first mistress Jim
240
00:16:22,574 --> 00:16:25,157
had, nor would she be the last.
241
00:16:25,257 --> 00:16:27,920
And now we have a father
who loves each one of us
242
00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:30,923
so much that we don't
even have to ask,
243
00:16:31,023 --> 00:16:32,084
and the blessings are there.
244
00:16:32,184 --> 00:16:34,727
He wants to give us so
much that everything we
245
00:16:34,827 --> 00:16:36,529
need and everything
we desire that's good
246
00:16:36,629 --> 00:16:38,771
for us is there before we ask.
247
00:16:38,871 --> 00:16:39,933
How thankful we
are for you, Jim.
248
00:16:40,033 --> 00:16:40,693
Thank you.
249
00:16:42,355 --> 00:16:47,741
I think that it's a mistake
to underestimate what women
250
00:16:47,841 --> 00:16:51,905
received in return from the--
for the sexual favours that they
251
00:16:52,005 --> 00:16:53,867
gave Jim Jones.
252
00:16:53,967 --> 00:16:55,870
Some of these women
slept with Jim Jones
253
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:58,953
so that they could have
influence over him,
254
00:16:59,053 --> 00:17:02,276
that the power actually
flowed both ways.
255
00:17:02,376 --> 00:17:05,640
These were women who would
never have had the kind of power
256
00:17:05,740 --> 00:17:09,484
and authority and ability
to be hands on and making
257
00:17:09,584 --> 00:17:11,967
a difference like they
were in Peoples Temple,
258
00:17:12,067 --> 00:17:15,290
and I think this is particularly
the case with Carolyn Moore
259
00:17:15,390 --> 00:17:16,652
Layton.
260
00:17:16,752 --> 00:17:18,173
One of the things that
made Carolyn different
261
00:17:18,273 --> 00:17:21,257
is that she seemingly
was OK with him
262
00:17:21,357 --> 00:17:25,141
being sexual with other people,
whereas my mother was not.
263
00:17:25,241 --> 00:17:27,223
The women that were
sleeping with Jim Jones were
264
00:17:27,323 --> 00:17:29,866
aware that each other
were sleeping with him,
265
00:17:29,966 --> 00:17:32,068
and so I think that
a lot of the women
266
00:17:32,168 --> 00:17:33,990
entered into that
relationship with Jim Jones
267
00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:36,553
not thinking they would ever
be his exclusive partner
268
00:17:36,653 --> 00:17:37,994
or get married to him.
269
00:17:38,094 --> 00:17:42,199
These were people who had joined
with Jim and his grandiose idea
270
00:17:42,299 --> 00:17:46,003
about transforming the
world, changing the world.
271
00:17:46,103 --> 00:17:48,045
That was a very difficult
thing for Marceline.
272
00:17:51,389 --> 00:17:52,610
Why would Marceline
273
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:57,655
stay married to a philanderer
for all those years?
274
00:17:57,755 --> 00:18:02,941
Is it that she got something
herself, reflected glory
275
00:18:03,041 --> 00:18:06,385
from her being the mother
in Peoples Temple, Mother
276
00:18:06,485 --> 00:18:09,228
Marceline?
277
00:18:09,328 --> 00:18:11,790
No, I do not
believe she stayed because it
278
00:18:11,890 --> 00:18:12,751
felt good.
279
00:18:12,851 --> 00:18:14,894
I am convinced that
is not the case.
280
00:18:18,778 --> 00:18:21,160
I hope that in
today's, you know--
281
00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:24,364
in these times, a woman
can just grab our kids
282
00:18:24,464 --> 00:18:26,086
and go and sort it
out with them later,
283
00:18:26,186 --> 00:18:28,368
that they-- they
understand that,
284
00:18:28,468 --> 00:18:30,811
that it's not about the
kids being OK with it.
285
00:18:30,911 --> 00:18:33,454
I don't think my mother knew
that was an option then.
286
00:18:33,554 --> 00:18:35,776
We don't know
what went on between Carolyn
287
00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:37,818
and Marceline
behind closed doors.
288
00:18:37,918 --> 00:18:40,021
What we do know is
Marceline could have left
289
00:18:40,121 --> 00:18:42,583
and could have probably
even left with her children,
290
00:18:42,683 --> 00:18:45,386
but she would have
lost all these people
291
00:18:45,486 --> 00:18:49,471
with whom she had been living
her life for over a decade.
292
00:18:49,571 --> 00:18:51,953
And it would have meant
losing this possibility
293
00:18:52,053 --> 00:18:55,877
to bring about a
transformation in the world.
294
00:19:00,062 --> 00:19:01,764
Just like everyone else,
295
00:19:01,864 --> 00:19:05,688
it's painful for me to see
the person I love with someone
296
00:19:05,788 --> 00:19:07,490
else.
297
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:11,774
I realise that I have
been very selfish.
298
00:19:11,874 --> 00:19:14,697
I want to make a public
statement tonight
299
00:19:14,797 --> 00:19:19,623
that I am willing to share
my husband for the cause
300
00:19:19,723 --> 00:19:21,885
and that I won't
resent it any longer.
301
00:19:24,608 --> 00:19:25,789
She hung in.
302
00:19:25,889 --> 00:19:27,872
Once she hung in, yeah, you
look around and say, OK,
303
00:19:27,972 --> 00:19:28,953
what good can I do here?
304
00:19:29,053 --> 00:19:30,634
How can I be OK with this?
305
00:19:30,734 --> 00:19:32,677
How can I get out of
bed in the morning
306
00:19:32,777 --> 00:19:35,840
and-- and sleep at night?
307
00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:37,482
But she did the
best with what she
308
00:19:37,582 --> 00:19:39,684
had and tried to make the best
of the decision she'd made.
309
00:19:41,226 --> 00:19:43,809
She saw her
sacrifice of the monogamy
310
00:19:43,909 --> 00:19:47,412
in her marriage as part of
what God was requiring from her
311
00:19:47,512 --> 00:19:50,215
in order to make a difference
in the lives of literally
312
00:19:50,315 --> 00:19:54,019
thousands of people, but
ultimately, once they moved
313
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,783
to Jonestown, tragedy unfolds.
314
00:20:12,659 --> 00:20:15,042
Starting in 1970, Peoples Temple
315
00:20:15,142 --> 00:20:18,405
was a movement that
was taking off,
316
00:20:18,505 --> 00:20:22,370
and so Carolyn Moore Layton,
who'd been involved in Peoples
317
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:26,054
Temple and sexually involved
with Jim Jones since 1969,
318
00:20:26,154 --> 00:20:30,178
kept inviting both her sisters,
Becky and Annie, to come and be
319
00:20:30,278 --> 00:20:32,661
a part of Peoples Temple.
320
00:20:32,761 --> 00:20:33,782
Carolyn was always
321
00:20:33,882 --> 00:20:35,984
kind of a serious person.
322
00:20:36,084 --> 00:20:39,147
She took life seriously
and the world seriously,
323
00:20:39,247 --> 00:20:44,473
and so it's not hard to
see her in Peoples Temple.
324
00:20:44,573 --> 00:20:47,757
Annie, on the other
hand, she was funny,
325
00:20:47,857 --> 00:20:50,399
and she was a practical joker.
326
00:20:50,499 --> 00:20:57,127
So to see her transformation
from being kind of this funny,
327
00:20:57,227 --> 00:21:02,532
joking person to someone who's
planning mass deaths is--
328
00:21:02,632 --> 00:21:04,775
is really a struggle.
329
00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:21,393
As soon as she graduated
from high school,
330
00:21:21,493 --> 00:21:25,277
Annie took a trip to Redwood
Valley to visit Carolyn,
331
00:21:25,377 --> 00:21:30,122
and the temple gave her the hard
sell, showing them the projects
332
00:21:30,222 --> 00:21:31,563
that they were doing,
which are wonderful.
333
00:21:31,663 --> 00:21:32,524
They were.
334
00:21:36,629 --> 00:21:39,452
I visited Carolyn
and Peoples Temple a week or so
335
00:21:39,552 --> 00:21:44,557
ago, and I am convinced that
it is a good place to be.
336
00:21:50,483 --> 00:21:54,067
It seems like most of the
people who go there stay.
337
00:21:54,167 --> 00:21:56,069
Carolyn,
I think, saw the temple
338
00:21:56,169 --> 00:21:59,313
as a political movement.
339
00:21:59,413 --> 00:22:02,516
Annie, on the other
hand, seem to see this
340
00:22:02,616 --> 00:22:06,000
as a religious organisation
where people were actually
341
00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:09,404
doing what Jesus
told them to do.
342
00:22:09,504 --> 00:22:11,446
I don't know
if you or Mom and Dad
343
00:22:11,546 --> 00:22:14,289
understand where my thinking is.
344
00:22:14,389 --> 00:22:18,053
You see, I don't care if I
have a so-called good time
345
00:22:18,153 --> 00:22:21,737
and take time out for
my personal pleasures.
346
00:22:21,837 --> 00:22:22,898
Remember, she's 18,
347
00:22:22,998 --> 00:22:25,221
and she kind of
talked in that way.
348
00:22:25,321 --> 00:22:27,583
And everything was,
you know, wonderful,
349
00:22:27,683 --> 00:22:32,068
and she wanted to be part
of changing the world.
350
00:22:32,168 --> 00:22:33,509
LAURA JOHNSTON
I knew Annie
351
00:22:33,609 --> 00:22:37,594
better than I knew Carolyn she
was always fun to be around.
352
00:22:37,694 --> 00:22:41,278
She was, like, really
funny, kind of like a colt.
353
00:22:41,378 --> 00:22:44,521
You know, she was, like,
lanky and just kind of-- kind
354
00:22:44,621 --> 00:22:48,165
of awkward in a cute way.
355
00:22:48,265 --> 00:22:49,887
All I
want is to work hard
356
00:22:49,987 --> 00:22:54,612
for the ultimate goal,
brotherhood for all.
357
00:22:54,712 --> 00:22:59,217
I'm the gladdest I have ever
been to be in this church,
358
00:22:59,317 --> 00:23:02,340
working for social
justice and brotherhood.
359
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,862
She joined
the temple right out
360
00:23:03,962 --> 00:23:05,584
of high school.
361
00:23:05,684 --> 00:23:09,708
Pretty soon after, she
began attending college
362
00:23:09,808 --> 00:23:13,272
to get her nursing degree.
363
00:23:13,372 --> 00:23:16,195
She entered Peoples Temple
almost as though she
364
00:23:16,295 --> 00:23:18,838
were a nun entering a convent.
365
00:23:18,938 --> 00:23:21,080
She sold her possessions.
366
00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:22,882
She sold her guitar.
367
00:23:22,982 --> 00:23:28,288
She cut her long hair, and
she became at least outwardly
368
00:23:28,388 --> 00:23:30,971
serious to us.
369
00:23:31,071 --> 00:23:35,576
When Annie Moore
joins Peoples Temple in 1972,
370
00:23:35,676 --> 00:23:39,139
the group had expanded into
San Francisco and Los Angeles,
371
00:23:39,239 --> 00:23:42,983
and it numbered
thousands of people.
372
00:23:43,083 --> 00:23:44,145
At 15, I was
373
00:23:44,245 --> 00:23:46,027
on a crew that
would go down early
374
00:23:46,127 --> 00:23:49,390
and start passing out fliers,
go down to Market Street,
375
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:54,916
and preach about this incredible
healer named Jim Jones.
376
00:23:55,016 --> 00:23:56,638
It just started growing.
377
00:23:56,738 --> 00:24:00,162
He bought more buses, and then
we would go to San Francisco.
378
00:24:00,262 --> 00:24:02,364
And then he bought the
temple in Los Angeles,
379
00:24:02,464 --> 00:24:04,566
and so we would go to LA
and, of course, the bus
380
00:24:04,666 --> 00:24:07,490
trips across the country
that were recruiting trips.
381
00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:10,533
We were going to the projects,
knocking on people's doors
382
00:24:10,633 --> 00:24:15,939
that were poor, and invite
them to come to Peoples Temple.
383
00:24:16,039 --> 00:24:18,541
So the first meeting
was packed because we
384
00:24:18,641 --> 00:24:21,264
had done all this pre-work
to get people there.
385
00:24:21,364 --> 00:24:22,706
Then of course it was
a healing service.
386
00:24:27,210 --> 00:24:30,894
Peace now.
387
00:24:35,099 --> 00:24:37,101
Yeah.
388
00:24:38,863 --> 00:24:40,865
Yeah.
389
00:25:05,451 --> 00:25:07,313
Well, the healings were
fake, and we wouldn't know that
390
00:25:07,413 --> 00:25:09,195
till later.
391
00:25:09,295 --> 00:25:10,316
I knew-- wait a minute.
392
00:25:10,416 --> 00:25:12,759
I know that guy or gal.
393
00:25:12,859 --> 00:25:14,841
There's nothing wrong with
them, so I knew this was being--
394
00:25:14,941 --> 00:25:16,643
there was stuff being faked.
395
00:25:21,228 --> 00:25:23,771
The healings were faked.
396
00:25:23,871 --> 00:25:26,374
I don't know if Annie
knew that or not.
397
00:25:26,474 --> 00:25:29,697
I don't think she was
involved in the fakery,
398
00:25:29,797 --> 00:25:32,780
but certainly, there was a
small group of people who--
399
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,944
who were involved and
who knew that, you know,
400
00:25:36,044 --> 00:25:40,989
cancers were not being healed
and the lame were not suddenly
401
00:25:41,089 --> 00:25:43,872
jumping up and walking.
402
00:25:43,972 --> 00:25:46,956
The faith-healing
stuff bothers everyone
403
00:25:47,056 --> 00:25:49,839
at first, but that's not
the most important part
404
00:25:49,939 --> 00:25:52,281
of the church.
405
00:25:52,381 --> 00:25:54,964
This is the largest group
of people I have ever
406
00:25:55,064 --> 00:25:58,608
seen from such different
backgrounds, every color,
407
00:25:58,708 --> 00:26:01,972
every age, every income
group who are concerned
408
00:26:02,072 --> 00:26:05,055
about the world and are
fighting for truth and justice.
409
00:26:12,963 --> 00:26:17,228
Jim Jones was continuing to
preach a gospel of inclusion
410
00:26:17,328 --> 00:26:20,992
for the poor and the elderly
and a gospel of a totally
411
00:26:21,092 --> 00:26:24,956
integrated power-sharing
relationship between whites
412
00:26:25,056 --> 00:26:28,720
and Blacks, but in actual
fact, that wasn't happening
413
00:26:28,820 --> 00:26:29,721
on a day-to-day basis.
414
00:26:33,705 --> 00:26:36,248
Anyone of
at all influence in that
415
00:26:36,348 --> 00:26:41,814
inner circle was white because
Dad was an insecure man
416
00:26:41,914 --> 00:26:45,138
and, in his own way, a racist.
417
00:26:45,238 --> 00:26:49,422
This is my opinion, strong
opinion that he believed
418
00:26:49,522 --> 00:26:52,786
the Black myth, and
he was intimidated.
419
00:26:52,886 --> 00:26:57,431
He didn't want to be measured
up against the Black man in bed,
420
00:26:57,531 --> 00:26:59,553
so he avoided Black women.
421
00:26:59,653 --> 00:27:02,236
That's why the inner
circle was mostly white.
422
00:27:02,336 --> 00:27:04,338
It was all white.
423
00:27:05,940 --> 00:27:08,763
So in 1973,
there was a challenge mounted
424
00:27:08,863 --> 00:27:12,086
by a group of young people
wanting to call the Peoples
425
00:27:12,186 --> 00:27:14,449
Temple leadership
into accountability
426
00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:18,133
for their hypocrisy for saying
that they were inclusive when
427
00:27:18,233 --> 00:27:19,774
in fact they weren't.
428
00:27:19,874 --> 00:27:24,740
They wrote a manifesto
before they left the temple.
429
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,503
It said white women
would join the temple
430
00:27:27,603 --> 00:27:30,866
and within a matter of weeks
would be promoted to positions
431
00:27:30,966 --> 00:27:33,029
of leadership, and one of
the people they pointed out
432
00:27:33,129 --> 00:27:36,072
in this regard was
my sister Annie.
433
00:27:36,172 --> 00:27:39,515
They also said that the
rhetoric in Peoples Temple
434
00:27:39,615 --> 00:27:44,080
was all about sex, and I can
appreciate what they were
435
00:27:44,180 --> 00:27:47,564
saying because the letters
from Annie and Carolyn
436
00:27:47,664 --> 00:27:49,406
talk about sex.
437
00:27:49,506 --> 00:27:51,809
Annie said, you know,
everyone's a homosexual,
438
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:53,090
and I'm a homosexual.
439
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:57,054
And Jim's the only person
who has healthy sex.
440
00:27:57,154 --> 00:27:59,016
Carolyn wrote
about sex with Jim,
441
00:27:59,116 --> 00:28:01,619
and since then, we've learned
that he would have people
442
00:28:01,719 --> 00:28:04,422
perform sex acts in
front of the group.
443
00:28:04,522 --> 00:28:10,028
Or he would humiliate people
by making them undress.
444
00:28:10,128 --> 00:28:13,912
I don't think that Carolyn and
Annie joined Peoples Temple
445
00:28:14,012 --> 00:28:15,594
thinking that they
would be involved
446
00:28:15,694 --> 00:28:18,477
in physical or sexual abuse.
447
00:28:18,577 --> 00:28:21,040
I think that kind
of little, you know,
448
00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:24,203
morality problems
along the way were
449
00:28:24,303 --> 00:28:26,646
insignificant to
the greater cause.
450
00:28:28,227 --> 00:28:29,889
I think
they had that thought that, you
451
00:28:29,989 --> 00:28:31,331
know what?
452
00:28:31,431 --> 00:28:32,632
It doesn't matter that
there's a difference here.
453
00:28:32,712 --> 00:28:34,895
There is not equality,
because we're
454
00:28:34,995 --> 00:28:37,377
helping those poor people.
455
00:28:37,477 --> 00:28:39,660
You know, we're really
doing good work for them.
456
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,222
I'm shining because I'm doing
my part, even though I'm
457
00:28:42,322 --> 00:28:44,324
taking advantage of them.
458
00:28:46,527 --> 00:28:48,229
But how do you,
as a human being,
459
00:28:48,329 --> 00:28:50,912
know this and take advantage?
460
00:28:51,012 --> 00:28:54,115
And you're taking advantage
of little senior citizens.
461
00:28:54,215 --> 00:28:57,479
Some of these Black women
had horrific childhoods,
462
00:28:57,579 --> 00:29:01,162
had horrific experiences, and
they come to Peoples Temple.
463
00:29:01,262 --> 00:29:05,007
And they're showed all
this love, and it's fake.
464
00:29:05,107 --> 00:29:07,689
It's fake.
465
00:29:07,789 --> 00:29:09,211
We want your blood,
and we want your sweat.
466
00:29:09,311 --> 00:29:09,972
And we want your tears.
467
00:29:10,072 --> 00:29:11,133
You want your money.
468
00:29:11,233 --> 00:29:12,314
We want you to go out
there, and we want you
469
00:29:12,394 --> 00:29:14,857
to beg for money for the cause.
470
00:29:14,957 --> 00:29:18,181
We want everything that you
have to where once you give
471
00:29:18,281 --> 00:29:21,384
everything, you don't have
anything else but this,
472
00:29:21,484 --> 00:29:23,506
and it worked.
473
00:29:25,088 --> 00:29:31,675
Now, now will each
of you give a very fond embrace,
474
00:29:31,775 --> 00:29:34,878
a salutary kiss of
greeting to your neighbour.
475
00:29:34,978 --> 00:29:36,981
Let's fill this
atmosphere with warmth.
476
00:29:52,157 --> 00:29:55,100
Sometime in the summer of 1974,
477
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,103
Carolyn told my parents that
she was pregnant with Jim Jones'
478
00:29:58,203 --> 00:30:00,205
child.
479
00:30:01,967 --> 00:30:06,112
She told them that she'd been
on her way to an abortion clinic
480
00:30:06,212 --> 00:30:09,836
but that Jim had stopped
her because the child had
481
00:30:09,936 --> 00:30:11,397
to be born.
482
00:30:11,497 --> 00:30:13,119
And Marceline, Jim's wife,
483
00:30:13,219 --> 00:30:16,403
had given public testimony
saying, I understand.
484
00:30:16,503 --> 00:30:18,925
I need to share my
husband with the cause.
485
00:30:19,025 --> 00:30:21,848
But privately, she
died a thousand deaths
486
00:30:21,948 --> 00:30:24,291
trying to deal with the
fact that Jim was having
487
00:30:24,391 --> 00:30:26,413
these relationships
with these other women,
488
00:30:26,513 --> 00:30:29,096
especially when he and Carolyn
ended up having a child
489
00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:30,017
together.
490
00:30:30,117 --> 00:30:31,259
From the beginning,
491
00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:35,223
he was called Kimo, which
is "Jim" in Hawaiian.
492
00:30:35,323 --> 00:30:38,026
As time wore on,
Carolyn was somewhat
493
00:30:38,126 --> 00:30:42,270
in the role of Jim's wife,
Marceline, in that she also
494
00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:46,194
came second to other
lovers that Jim took on.
495
00:30:53,142 --> 00:30:57,446
Maria stayed in the same commune
496
00:30:57,546 --> 00:31:01,170
that I was in in
Redwood Valley, and we
497
00:31:01,270 --> 00:31:04,734
were both put on the planning
commission on the same night.
498
00:31:04,834 --> 00:31:12,142
She rose quite quickly into
a position of leadership.
499
00:31:12,242 --> 00:31:14,224
I knew Maria quite well.
500
00:31:14,324 --> 00:31:17,948
She was much younger, much
more naive than Carolyn
501
00:31:18,048 --> 00:31:20,431
and really such a
different personality.
502
00:31:20,531 --> 00:31:25,436
Carolyn, you know, was not as
easily manipulated as Maria.
503
00:31:25,536 --> 00:31:28,720
I think Jim targeted her because
she was 18 and a day old,
504
00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:30,822
and so he liked young meat.
505
00:31:33,505 --> 00:31:35,087
- HUE FORTSON,
- Maria
was one of the ones, also,
506
00:31:35,187 --> 00:31:38,010
that was part of
his inner circle.
507
00:31:38,110 --> 00:31:40,572
From my understanding,
she was a good bed partner
508
00:31:40,672 --> 00:31:44,016
for him or something, and
so she had privileges.
509
00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:45,858
She was like one of the ones
that you didn't talk to,
510
00:31:45,958 --> 00:31:47,260
almost like Carolyn.
511
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,143
You didn't really talk to them
unless they talked to you,
512
00:31:50,243 --> 00:31:52,105
because if not, she
would be bothered,
513
00:31:52,205 --> 00:31:54,908
and if she's bothered, then
he's going to be bothered.
514
00:31:55,008 --> 00:31:56,509
I think that some women that
515
00:31:56,609 --> 00:32:00,674
slept with Jim saw that they
were considered special,
516
00:32:00,774 --> 00:32:03,116
that they were chosen
to be with him,
517
00:32:03,216 --> 00:32:05,239
and therefore felt that they
were better than others.
518
00:32:05,339 --> 00:32:07,161
Absolutely, I believe that.
519
00:32:07,261 --> 00:32:08,362
Absolutely.
520
00:32:08,462 --> 00:32:11,565
I do think that Jim Jones
took advantage of people
521
00:32:11,665 --> 00:32:14,008
like Annie Moore
and Carolyn Layton
522
00:32:14,108 --> 00:32:17,051
and other women who came
to join Peoples Temple.
523
00:32:17,151 --> 00:32:18,973
He took advantage
of their desire
524
00:32:19,073 --> 00:32:22,017
to do a lot of good in
society, and at the same time,
525
00:32:22,117 --> 00:32:23,979
I think that they took
advantage of the fact
526
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:26,421
that there weren't any checks
and balances on the kind
527
00:32:26,521 --> 00:32:28,584
of authority and power
that they could wield.
528
00:32:28,684 --> 00:32:32,267
I think it wasn't until
criticism from concerned
529
00:32:32,367 --> 00:32:35,911
relatives and the media started
to mount that that sort of
530
00:32:36,011 --> 00:32:36,792
began to fall apart.
531
00:32:47,303 --> 00:32:51,568
My parents told me that some
really bad news had come out
532
00:32:51,668 --> 00:32:53,170
about Peoples Temple.
533
00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:58,015
The writers for the article
interviewed former members.
534
00:32:58,115 --> 00:33:00,618
There were allegations
of sexual activity
535
00:33:00,718 --> 00:33:02,059
on the part of Jim Jones.
536
00:33:02,159 --> 00:33:04,101
There were allegations
about corporal punishment
537
00:33:04,201 --> 00:33:05,943
within Peoples Temple.
538
00:33:06,043 --> 00:33:09,267
There were allegations
about financial wrongdoing.
539
00:33:09,367 --> 00:33:12,110
Carolyn and Annie
explained, oh, those people
540
00:33:12,210 --> 00:33:13,712
have always been
a bunch of liars,
541
00:33:13,812 --> 00:33:16,154
or, oh, well, they're
known child molesters.
542
00:33:16,254 --> 00:33:18,877
Or you can't trust
what those people say.
543
00:33:18,977 --> 00:33:20,439
They embezzled money
from the church.
544
00:33:22,261 --> 00:33:23,602
All of
the stories about us
545
00:33:23,702 --> 00:33:28,527
are lies told to discredit the
good projects we have done.
546
00:33:28,627 --> 00:33:30,970
All I can say is I have
never seen such atrocious
547
00:33:31,070 --> 00:33:34,294
lies in my life.
548
00:33:34,394 --> 00:33:36,816
And so for the
leadership circle of Peoples
549
00:33:36,916 --> 00:33:42,102
Temple, there was an awareness
that as criticism mounted,
550
00:33:42,202 --> 00:33:44,785
there would need to be a
place where people could move
551
00:33:44,885 --> 00:33:48,068
to in case the community
was going to be disbanded.
552
00:33:48,168 --> 00:33:49,990
Jim left
before the article was actually
553
00:33:50,090 --> 00:33:51,432
published.
554
00:33:51,532 --> 00:33:55,316
There is no way that he could
have withstood the backlash
555
00:33:55,416 --> 00:33:58,039
and the investigations that
this was going to cause,
556
00:33:58,139 --> 00:34:00,041
and so he ran.
557
00:34:00,141 --> 00:34:03,725
He ran, and that's when his
entire world fell apart.
558
00:34:12,314 --> 00:34:15,217
In 1974,
this piece of property
559
00:34:15,317 --> 00:34:18,421
was bought in Guyana, and
an agricultural project
560
00:34:18,521 --> 00:34:19,221
was set up.
561
00:34:19,321 --> 00:34:21,184
And they called it Jonestown.
562
00:34:21,284 --> 00:34:22,585
I mean, they used
to sing this song,
563
00:34:22,685 --> 00:34:24,988
going to the promised land,
going to the promised land,
564
00:34:25,088 --> 00:34:29,232
but he presented as a place to
visit for a while, to cool out,
565
00:34:29,332 --> 00:34:32,756
a vacation land,
that type thing.
566
00:34:32,856 --> 00:34:36,960
I was
curious about Jonestown.
567
00:34:37,060 --> 00:34:40,124
I wasn't overly eager to go.
568
00:34:40,224 --> 00:34:44,288
And then Maria came up
to me one afternoon,
569
00:34:44,388 --> 00:34:47,772
and she told me that I was
going to be going the next day.
570
00:34:47,872 --> 00:34:50,375
And so I did.
571
00:34:50,475 --> 00:34:56,381
People in Jonestown
participated in creating a film,
572
00:34:56,481 --> 00:34:58,543
playing up what
Jonestown was supposed
573
00:34:58,643 --> 00:34:59,785
to be like at the time.
574
00:35:02,528 --> 00:35:05,230
Today, all the
children of Jonestown
575
00:35:05,330 --> 00:35:09,555
are having a fun-day parade,
having a fun-day parade,
576
00:35:09,655 --> 00:35:12,318
and they're going
all around Jonestown
577
00:35:12,418 --> 00:35:15,481
and showing their happiness
and how-- how well they love it
578
00:35:15,581 --> 00:35:17,163
here in Jonestown.
579
00:35:17,263 --> 00:35:19,526
And if you can see
how happy they are--
580
00:35:19,626 --> 00:35:22,188
and they really love it here
in Jonestown, as you can see.
581
00:35:30,557 --> 00:35:32,540
These are potato chips
made from plantain,
582
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:33,861
and they're more delicious.
583
00:35:33,961 --> 00:35:35,823
They're a combination of
potato chip and a French fry.
584
00:35:35,923 --> 00:35:39,467
And radishes, mm, mm, mm.
585
00:35:39,567 --> 00:35:40,788
Here are the people
at the table,
586
00:35:40,888 --> 00:35:43,111
eating an afternoon snack.
587
00:35:43,211 --> 00:35:44,512
You don't know what
you're missing down here.
588
00:35:45,453 --> 00:35:47,075
It had dormitories.
589
00:35:47,175 --> 00:35:49,478
There was a pavilion where
public gatherings would take
590
00:35:49,578 --> 00:35:54,123
place, a kitchen, an
infirmary, school buildings.
591
00:35:54,223 --> 00:35:56,886
It was like a small
town right there
592
00:35:56,986 --> 00:36:00,289
in the middle of the jungle.
593
00:36:00,389 --> 00:36:02,051
Carolyn was
in charge of a public school
594
00:36:02,151 --> 00:36:03,332
system.
595
00:36:03,432 --> 00:36:06,656
Annie was basically in
charge of a medical center.
596
00:36:06,756 --> 00:36:09,018
They lived
in the cabin with Jim Jones
597
00:36:09,118 --> 00:36:11,661
along with Maria
Katsaris, another one
598
00:36:11,761 --> 00:36:13,663
of Jim's main mistresses.
599
00:36:16,687 --> 00:36:20,351
Dear Pop, how are you feeling?
600
00:36:20,451 --> 00:36:25,716
I can honestly say I've never
been happier or healthier.
601
00:36:25,816 --> 00:36:28,039
I do different
things around here.
602
00:36:28,139 --> 00:36:30,722
I sort of help
coordinate, but I also
603
00:36:30,822 --> 00:36:33,304
spend time in the medical
clinic and in the school.
604
00:36:38,830 --> 00:36:41,173
By the
end of the summer of '77,
605
00:36:41,273 --> 00:36:43,495
a lot of people were
coming over and more
606
00:36:43,595 --> 00:36:47,299
all the time because Jim wanted
as many people out of the San
607
00:36:47,399 --> 00:36:51,304
Francisco area and away from
the "New West Magazine" as soon
608
00:36:51,404 --> 00:36:52,064
as he could.
609
00:36:53,286 --> 00:36:54,387
When we went to Jonestown,
610
00:36:54,487 --> 00:36:57,550
Mom came over much later
because she stayed behind
611
00:36:57,650 --> 00:37:00,273
to manage things.
612
00:37:00,373 --> 00:37:02,916
Mrs. Jones, why
has not your husband returned
613
00:37:03,016 --> 00:37:06,400
to the United States to respond
to any of these charges?
614
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:10,724
The organisation decided that
if our people were going there
615
00:37:10,824 --> 00:37:13,727
and any people were going
there that his presence was
616
00:37:13,827 --> 00:37:16,370
necessary in order to--
617
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:18,472
his leadership was necessary.
618
00:37:21,355 --> 00:37:24,499
She was trying
to manage what should not
619
00:37:24,599 --> 00:37:27,302
be managed from a
healthy point of view.
620
00:37:27,402 --> 00:37:30,105
She got lost in
it in that respect
621
00:37:30,205 --> 00:37:33,068
because then she was just
playing triage, the worst
622
00:37:33,168 --> 00:37:35,170
kind of triage.
623
00:37:37,613 --> 00:37:40,035
This wholesale
move to Jonestown
624
00:37:40,135 --> 00:37:43,279
served the purpose of keeping
Jim Jones from being seen
625
00:37:43,379 --> 00:37:48,965
by outsiders because by the time
Jim Jones moves to Jonestown,
626
00:37:49,065 --> 00:37:52,208
he is addicted to phenobarbital.
627
00:37:52,308 --> 00:37:54,731
And that's when the
women really took over
628
00:37:54,831 --> 00:37:57,174
and where he began serving
them instead of the other way
629
00:37:57,274 --> 00:37:58,615
around.
630
00:38:07,364 --> 00:38:09,587
While the people
inside this Yucaipa home
631
00:38:09,687 --> 00:38:12,350
say they fear for the lives
of their friends and family
632
00:38:12,450 --> 00:38:15,153
far away in that Peoples
Temple in Guyana,
633
00:38:15,253 --> 00:38:18,156
they say they fear for
their own lives as well.
634
00:38:18,256 --> 00:38:22,401
The Reverend Jim Jones works
in some very unexpected ways.
635
00:38:22,501 --> 00:38:28,127
This picture here is
the picture for socialism.
636
00:38:28,227 --> 00:38:29,328
What do you mean?
637
00:38:29,428 --> 00:38:32,692
Well, everybody's
supposed to be in this one,
638
00:38:32,792 --> 00:38:35,294
and this is what he would
preach when he put on that robe.
639
00:38:35,394 --> 00:38:37,657
That's what he would say when
he had his hand up like that,
640
00:38:37,757 --> 00:38:43,503
socialism, socialism, socialism,
but nothing but a lie.
641
00:38:43,603 --> 00:38:46,586
Today, the Peoples
Temple said that this is--
642
00:38:46,686 --> 00:38:49,269
they had nothing to do-- that--
that the Peoples Temple would
643
00:38:49,369 --> 00:38:51,191
never have anything
to do with violence.
644
00:38:51,291 --> 00:38:52,353
Do you believe them?
645
00:38:52,453 --> 00:38:54,995
Oh no, that's the
biggest lie ever was told.
646
00:38:55,095 --> 00:38:57,097
Ain't nothing but violence.
647
00:39:08,830 --> 00:39:11,173
By the time they
transition to Jonestown,
648
00:39:11,273 --> 00:39:14,256
Jim Jones became increasingly
addicted to drugs,
649
00:39:14,356 --> 00:39:17,539
and his behaviour of
slurring his words,
650
00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:20,943
stumbling around, being
incoherent and disoriented
651
00:39:21,043 --> 00:39:24,667
at times was explained away
by Annie and other women
652
00:39:24,767 --> 00:39:28,351
in leadership as him being sick.
653
00:39:28,451 --> 00:39:32,275
He was a drug addict
addicted to phenobarbital,
654
00:39:32,375 --> 00:39:36,440
and so the women
then were in charge.
655
00:39:39,423 --> 00:39:40,844
Within the circle,
656
00:39:40,944 --> 00:39:44,008
Carolyn was the one who
organised everything.
657
00:39:44,108 --> 00:39:46,771
I mean, I do think
that behind the scenes,
658
00:39:46,871 --> 00:39:49,353
she was kind of the mastermind
of that inner circle.
659
00:39:52,837 --> 00:39:55,300
My understanding
of Annie's role in Jonestown
660
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,024
is that she did
some nursing care,
661
00:39:59,124 --> 00:40:01,226
but her primary
role in Jonestown
662
00:40:01,326 --> 00:40:03,949
was to be Jim Jones'
personal nurse.
663
00:40:04,049 --> 00:40:08,153
And what that entailed, I think,
was, you know, giving him,
664
00:40:08,253 --> 00:40:11,517
you know, uppers in the
morning and downers at night.
665
00:40:11,617 --> 00:40:14,880
It would have been very easy
to undermine Dad at that point,
666
00:40:14,980 --> 00:40:17,363
very easy if that was
what folks wanted to do,
667
00:40:17,463 --> 00:40:21,447
but apparently, those
in his leadership circle
668
00:40:21,547 --> 00:40:24,331
wanted to carry
his agenda forward.
669
00:40:24,431 --> 00:40:29,056
I really do believe that with
Jim's insanity that his nurses
670
00:40:29,156 --> 00:40:33,981
and mistresses and secretaries,
they caught that same insanity.
671
00:40:34,081 --> 00:40:35,983
you aware
that you're rolling?
672
00:40:36,083 --> 00:40:38,586
No, but I just want to
tell you right now, OK?
673
00:40:38,686 --> 00:40:40,948
I'm just telling you that you
say there's a lot of this,
674
00:40:41,048 --> 00:40:42,350
and you can't believe that.
675
00:40:42,450 --> 00:40:45,593
I'm telling you that
you have never met up
676
00:40:45,693 --> 00:40:48,356
with a man like Jim Jones.
677
00:40:48,456 --> 00:40:51,840
Are you saying
Jones is a bad man?
678
00:40:51,940 --> 00:40:55,884
Well, I think what he's done
to the people is really bad,
679
00:40:55,984 --> 00:40:58,487
so I guess, in that essence,
either he's very bad,
680
00:40:58,587 --> 00:41:00,009
or he's very sick.
681
00:41:00,109 --> 00:41:02,331
And he's probably very sick.
682
00:41:02,431 --> 00:41:05,655
The Concerned Relatives,
which was a group that strongly
683
00:41:05,755 --> 00:41:08,618
opposed Jim Jones
and Peoples Temple,
684
00:41:08,718 --> 00:41:11,981
was organised in
part by Tim Stoen
685
00:41:12,081 --> 00:41:13,743
along with his wife, Grace.
686
00:41:13,843 --> 00:41:16,746
They had left Peoples Temple
and were seeking custody
687
00:41:16,846 --> 00:41:21,592
of their son, John Victor, whom
they had left behind in Peoples
688
00:41:21,692 --> 00:41:25,195
Temple in the care of
Carolyn, Maria Katsaris,
689
00:41:25,295 --> 00:41:27,918
and other members there.
690
00:41:28,018 --> 00:41:30,361
How is it that Jim
Jones has your son?
691
00:41:30,461 --> 00:41:33,164
It's easy for someone to
stay out there and say, well,
692
00:41:33,264 --> 00:41:35,286
if it was my child, I
would have never left.
693
00:41:35,386 --> 00:41:38,289
You know, I'm a mother, and I
would have never left my child.
694
00:41:38,389 --> 00:41:40,852
Well, I-- you know, I've
been fighting this legal case
695
00:41:40,952 --> 00:41:43,175
for two years,
trying to get John,
696
00:41:43,275 --> 00:41:46,258
and I'll just keep on
trying and trying and--
697
00:41:46,358 --> 00:41:49,261
you know, until it's a dead end.
698
00:41:49,361 --> 00:41:54,907
The custody battle over John
Victor was extremely bitter.
699
00:41:55,007 --> 00:41:57,950
Part of the reason for this
was because Jim claimed
700
00:41:58,050 --> 00:42:01,114
to be the father.
701
00:42:01,214 --> 00:42:02,715
Grace was
one of those people who
702
00:42:02,815 --> 00:42:05,759
had had a sexual
relationship with Jim Jones,
703
00:42:05,859 --> 00:42:08,201
but she was also married and
having a sexual relationship
704
00:42:08,301 --> 00:42:10,083
with her own husband as well.
705
00:42:10,183 --> 00:42:14,168
And so in the beginning days
of John Victor Stoen's life,
706
00:42:14,268 --> 00:42:17,371
it wasn't really known
who the father was,
707
00:42:17,471 --> 00:42:19,734
and this was part of what was
at the heart of the custody
708
00:42:19,834 --> 00:42:20,735
battle.
709
00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:28,663
Maria Katsaris was a kind of
surrogate mom for John Victor
710
00:42:28,763 --> 00:42:31,666
during the years after his
mother and father defected
711
00:42:31,766 --> 00:42:36,151
from Peoples Temple, and he was
raised alongside Kimo, Carolyn
712
00:42:36,251 --> 00:42:38,834
Moore Layton and Jim Jones' son.
713
00:42:38,934 --> 00:42:42,598
And they were really raised
to be like siblings of one
714
00:42:42,698 --> 00:42:45,521
another, and from all
accounts Maria Katsaris
715
00:42:45,621 --> 00:42:47,924
loved this child like
her own and really took
716
00:42:48,024 --> 00:42:50,927
excellent care of him.
717
00:42:51,027 --> 00:42:52,328
This custody battle
718
00:42:52,428 --> 00:42:57,173
might have been a kind of
turning point in the psychology
719
00:42:57,273 --> 00:42:58,975
of those living in Jonestown.
720
00:43:00,637 --> 00:43:01,858
Peoples Temple decided
721
00:43:01,958 --> 00:43:06,583
to draw a line in the sand
around the custody of John
722
00:43:06,683 --> 00:43:08,826
Victor Stoen.
723
00:43:08,926 --> 00:43:10,187
The issue of John Stoen
724
00:43:10,287 --> 00:43:12,430
is not an isolated
custody case to us.
725
00:43:12,530 --> 00:43:14,472
If he were taken
from the collective,
726
00:43:14,572 --> 00:43:18,516
it would be number one in a
series of similar attempts.
727
00:43:18,616 --> 00:43:20,638
No child here would
ever again feel secure
728
00:43:20,738 --> 00:43:24,362
if we handed over John Stoen.
729
00:43:24,462 --> 00:43:25,884
Nobody in Jonestown
730
00:43:25,984 --> 00:43:30,048
would be safe if he were
returned to Grace and Tim.
731
00:43:30,148 --> 00:43:33,452
And so when the
lawyers for the Stoens
732
00:43:33,552 --> 00:43:37,216
attempted to serve
papers in Jonestown,
733
00:43:37,316 --> 00:43:38,898
Jim Jones freaked out.
734
00:43:49,289 --> 00:43:50,630
There was mass hysteria.
735
00:43:50,730 --> 00:43:53,033
Everyone in the
community was up in arms,
736
00:43:53,133 --> 00:43:55,876
defending what they
thought was going
737
00:43:55,976 --> 00:44:00,481
to be an attack by government
forces or US forces.
738
00:44:00,581 --> 00:44:01,762
It wasn't clear.
739
00:44:01,862 --> 00:44:04,125
All that was clear was
that they were very afraid.
740
00:44:05,987 --> 00:44:09,771
He pulled
everybody else into his drama
741
00:44:09,871 --> 00:44:13,535
and his pathology.
742
00:44:13,635 --> 00:44:16,818
I think that people were
manipulated into believing
743
00:44:16,918 --> 00:44:22,865
that we were in danger when
we weren't necessarily.
744
00:44:22,965 --> 00:44:25,347
I remember
sitting there, looking out
745
00:44:25,447 --> 00:44:28,791
at the jungle, thinking,
how was I going to die?
746
00:44:28,891 --> 00:44:32,435
Was it going to be
quick, or would they, you
747
00:44:32,535 --> 00:44:35,759
know, take us and torture us.
748
00:44:35,859 --> 00:44:39,603
We wouldn't know till later
that everything was staged,
749
00:44:39,703 --> 00:44:42,486
and John Victor
Stoen was probably,
750
00:44:42,586 --> 00:44:44,588
you know, a pawn
like everybody else.
751
00:44:47,631 --> 00:44:49,693
So now the
story had to escalate.
752
00:44:49,793 --> 00:44:52,657
Dad came up with this
whole staged thing
753
00:44:52,757 --> 00:44:54,218
where they were really
going to come and try
754
00:44:54,318 --> 00:44:56,501
to take John Victor away.
755
00:44:56,601 --> 00:44:58,943
And the plan was,
I would take John,
756
00:44:59,043 --> 00:45:01,146
and I would fake like he was--
757
00:45:01,246 --> 00:45:02,547
somebody tried to abduct him.
758
00:45:02,647 --> 00:45:05,110
I would personally somehow
throw something over his head,
759
00:45:05,210 --> 00:45:08,233
but then I would rescue him.
760
00:45:08,333 --> 00:45:12,037
At some point, Maria and Carolyn
just pulled me off to the side,
761
00:45:12,137 --> 00:45:15,000
and they said, we can't--
we can't let him do this.
762
00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:16,762
You've got to stop it.
763
00:45:16,862 --> 00:45:19,685
Certainly, in this case, Maria
was protecting John Victor.
764
00:45:19,785 --> 00:45:22,929
She didn't want him to
go through that terror.
765
00:45:23,029 --> 00:45:26,493
If you just say, no, no
way, they get somebody else.
766
00:45:26,593 --> 00:45:28,014
What you have to
do in situations
767
00:45:28,114 --> 00:45:31,618
like that is to find a way to
steer it in another direction,
768
00:45:31,718 --> 00:45:33,780
and that's what they were doing.
769
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,464
And to me, that was kind
of a glimpse into the--
770
00:45:37,564 --> 00:45:40,628
they worked it
whenever they could.
771
00:45:40,728 --> 00:45:42,269
I think that
Carolyn was probably
772
00:45:42,369 --> 00:45:44,071
trying to manage
things to a better end,
773
00:45:44,171 --> 00:45:47,075
but at whatever point she had
a chance to take a step back,
774
00:45:47,175 --> 00:45:48,476
she was too heavily invested.
775
00:45:54,182 --> 00:45:55,924
At any moment,
the marshal could be coming in
776
00:45:56,024 --> 00:45:58,206
to arrest Jim.
777
00:45:58,306 --> 00:46:02,010
We've decided that we would
die if that were required,
778
00:46:02,110 --> 00:46:06,095
and it seems to us that it is.
779
00:46:13,723 --> 00:46:16,105
In Jonestown,
the leadership circle
780
00:46:16,205 --> 00:46:19,910
knew that eventually the outside
forces that were attempting
781
00:46:20,010 --> 00:46:22,753
to tear them down
would have success.
782
00:46:22,853 --> 00:46:25,195
The whole
dramatic focus of this
783
00:46:25,295 --> 00:46:27,718
was this battle,
this custody battle
784
00:46:27,818 --> 00:46:31,482
to regain custody of
John Victor Stoen,
785
00:46:31,582 --> 00:46:33,884
and the entire community
had been mobilised
786
00:46:33,984 --> 00:46:37,128
against this threat,
which was more in the--
787
00:46:37,228 --> 00:46:41,332
created by Jim Jones
than in reality.
788
00:46:41,432 --> 00:46:44,576
Annie and Carolyn repeatedly
said in their letters
789
00:46:44,676 --> 00:46:47,339
that they were willing to die
for what they believed in.
790
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,783
I think it was a
gradual transformation
791
00:46:51,883 --> 00:46:56,589
within the temple in which
revolutionary suicide, which
792
00:46:56,689 --> 00:46:59,151
meant dying for
what you believe in,
793
00:46:59,251 --> 00:47:04,077
became transformed into suicide
committed by revolutionaries
794
00:47:04,177 --> 00:47:06,719
to make a point.
795
00:47:06,819 --> 00:47:09,002
I don't know
at what level Mom facilitated
796
00:47:09,102 --> 00:47:10,523
things.
797
00:47:10,623 --> 00:47:13,407
Part of her was lost in
trying to manage and mitigate
798
00:47:13,507 --> 00:47:16,450
what my father did and
perhaps right to the end.
799
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:19,213
I lay the
suicide decision solidly
800
00:47:19,313 --> 00:47:22,456
at the feet of that inner
circle that made it happen,
801
00:47:22,556 --> 00:47:24,538
and the people who were
at the forefront of this
802
00:47:24,638 --> 00:47:29,784
were Annie Moore, Carolyn
Layton, Maria Katsaris,
803
00:47:29,884 --> 00:47:31,886
and the other women in
the leadership circle.
804
00:47:43,378 --> 00:47:47,162
In Jonestown, Jim Jones would
be speaking over the loudspeaker
805
00:47:47,262 --> 00:47:49,265
during most waking hours.
806
00:47:59,836 --> 00:48:01,338
It was horrible.
807
00:48:01,438 --> 00:48:02,659
You just-- I just--
808
00:48:02,759 --> 00:48:07,024
I would cringe when I hear
it, and then I get angry.
809
00:48:07,124 --> 00:48:09,326
Please, would somebody
just, you know, end this?
810
00:48:21,179 --> 00:48:25,483
We just went into this whole
place of darkness and despair.
811
00:48:25,583 --> 00:48:28,647
I think people were just so
tired because you didn't know
812
00:48:28,747 --> 00:48:30,328
what was real.
813
00:48:30,428 --> 00:48:34,733
We had no news from the outside
world except what he gave us.
814
00:48:34,833 --> 00:48:36,455
If they had said there
was a nuclear war,
815
00:48:36,555 --> 00:48:39,138
we would have believed it
because we had no contact
816
00:48:39,238 --> 00:48:41,240
with the outside world.
817
00:48:43,122 --> 00:48:45,344
We don't always
factor in just how hard life
818
00:48:45,444 --> 00:48:49,269
was in Jonestown, how
exhausted people were,
819
00:48:49,369 --> 00:48:52,873
and how there was
no end in sight.
820
00:48:52,973 --> 00:48:56,516
There was no way for
that jungle commune
821
00:48:56,616 --> 00:48:59,560
to be able to sustain
that many people.
822
00:48:59,660 --> 00:49:05,126
Plus, 2/3 of the people were
elderly or children, which
823
00:49:05,226 --> 00:49:08,009
meant that it was a small number
of people who were actually
824
00:49:08,109 --> 00:49:10,531
running the day-to-day
operations of feeding
825
00:49:10,631 --> 00:49:13,855
the community, doing laundry,
cleaning up, disposal
826
00:49:13,955 --> 00:49:17,218
of garbage, making sure that
there was medicine available,
827
00:49:17,318 --> 00:49:19,301
education, and all
the other things that
828
00:49:19,401 --> 00:49:21,403
make a-- make a town work.
829
00:49:25,447 --> 00:49:27,509
Jonestown was
a terrible place to live.
830
00:49:27,609 --> 00:49:28,791
They were dire times.
831
00:49:28,891 --> 00:49:33,716
Dad was deeply
troubled and crazed
832
00:49:33,816 --> 00:49:37,080
by the threat he perceived.
833
00:49:37,180 --> 00:49:38,561
More and more, Jim Jones
834
00:49:38,661 --> 00:49:40,523
was becoming a figurehead
in his own movement
835
00:49:40,623 --> 00:49:43,246
because he's not good at
the bureaucratic, day-to-day
836
00:49:43,346 --> 00:49:45,008
running of an organisation.
837
00:49:45,108 --> 00:49:46,970
He was great at
getting people to join,
838
00:49:47,070 --> 00:49:48,892
but he was not
good at maintaining
839
00:49:48,992 --> 00:49:51,074
the health of the community
on a day-to-day basis.
840
00:49:53,998 --> 00:49:56,540
People wondered about him possibly
841
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,302
being on drugs
because when he would
842
00:49:58,402 --> 00:50:01,826
talk on the loudspeaker
from his cottage,
843
00:50:01,926 --> 00:50:03,928
he would slur his words.
844
00:50:21,146 --> 00:50:23,369
Soon after
Mom moved to Jonestown,
845
00:50:23,469 --> 00:50:24,730
she came to me and
said, we've got
846
00:50:24,830 --> 00:50:25,932
to get your father off drugs.
847
00:50:26,032 --> 00:50:28,094
We've got to isolate
him, and we're
848
00:50:28,194 --> 00:50:31,377
going to have to just get
him off drugs, you know?
849
00:50:31,477 --> 00:50:34,941
Even now, that's just
such a crazy statement.
850
00:50:35,041 --> 00:50:37,184
Like, and what I
said to her was, Mom,
851
00:50:37,284 --> 00:50:40,507
you don't tell God he's
got a drug problem,
852
00:50:40,607 --> 00:50:43,711
but she would even latch
onto that as a possibility.
853
00:50:43,811 --> 00:50:45,192
I don't know.
854
00:50:45,292 --> 00:50:49,397
I think it's evidence of
how lost she was in managing
855
00:50:49,497 --> 00:50:50,158
that situation.
856
00:50:52,019 --> 00:50:55,043
At that point, we saw less
and less of each other.
857
00:50:55,143 --> 00:50:56,204
And I think that that
was in large part
858
00:50:56,304 --> 00:51:00,248
that Dad wanted her way,
and she wanted to be away.
859
00:51:00,348 --> 00:51:02,090
She also-- when she
would come into town,
860
00:51:02,190 --> 00:51:04,052
she did not make
things easy for him.
861
00:51:04,152 --> 00:51:06,815
I think he felt
guilty, first of all,
862
00:51:06,915 --> 00:51:10,339
so having her not around made
it easier for him to just be
863
00:51:10,439 --> 00:51:12,441
in his new life and other life.
864
00:51:18,167 --> 00:51:19,949
- HUE FORTSON,
- Jones
said publicly, Marceline
865
00:51:20,049 --> 00:51:23,353
and I no longer
have a relationship.
866
00:51:23,453 --> 00:51:26,596
Her cottage is over there
on that side of Jonestown,
867
00:51:26,696 --> 00:51:28,839
and he had just had
one recently built
868
00:51:28,939 --> 00:51:31,201
on the other side of Jonestown.
869
00:51:31,301 --> 00:51:33,604
I think that
Marceline Jones felt more
870
00:51:33,704 --> 00:51:37,368
and more irrelevant the
longer that Jonestown went on,
871
00:51:37,468 --> 00:51:39,250
and the broader
group did not see her
872
00:51:39,350 --> 00:51:41,132
as being that important.
873
00:51:41,232 --> 00:51:43,134
Long gone were the
days of Indiana when
874
00:51:43,234 --> 00:51:45,416
she was known as Mother Jones.
875
00:51:45,516 --> 00:51:47,178
She was not the mother
to the community anymore.
876
00:51:53,365 --> 00:51:56,068
I remember
one time, I'm awakened.
877
00:51:56,168 --> 00:51:58,070
My father's calling,
and he wants
878
00:51:58,170 --> 00:51:59,912
to have a conversation with me.
879
00:52:00,012 --> 00:52:02,394
He's just propped up in bed
with that ridiculous hat of his.
880
00:52:02,494 --> 00:52:04,317
His sunglasses are on.
881
00:52:04,417 --> 00:52:07,120
Carolyn is hovering
off to the right.
882
00:52:07,220 --> 00:52:12,685
At some point, he looks at her,
and she quickly scurries in.
883
00:52:12,785 --> 00:52:18,011
And she shoots him up
intravenously with something.
884
00:52:18,111 --> 00:52:18,972
He says to me, don't worry.
885
00:52:19,072 --> 00:52:21,615
It's just B12.
886
00:52:21,715 --> 00:52:25,900
Within seconds, that B12 had
him slurring words and nodding
887
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,704
and just wasted.
888
00:52:29,804 --> 00:52:32,427
And I looked over at
her, and she was crying,
889
00:52:32,527 --> 00:52:35,310
looking just completely lost.
890
00:52:35,410 --> 00:52:40,075
I feel it was that she
recognised what they'd become,
891
00:52:40,175 --> 00:52:43,799
that her dream was lost.
892
00:52:47,342 --> 00:52:48,964
I think
that Carolyn was probably
893
00:52:49,064 --> 00:52:54,090
pretty lonely in Jonestown, that
she didn't have any friends.
894
00:52:54,190 --> 00:52:57,894
How can you be friends with
the mistress of the leader?
895
00:52:57,994 --> 00:53:01,417
Anything you said to that
person would go back directly
896
00:53:01,517 --> 00:53:03,019
to Jones.
897
00:53:03,119 --> 00:53:08,545
So I imagine her living kind
of in a cone of isolation.
898
00:53:08,645 --> 00:53:13,991
The only alternative was
interaction with her son, Kimo,
899
00:53:14,091 --> 00:53:19,917
who is, like, engaging and
funny and warm and loves her,
900
00:53:20,017 --> 00:53:24,122
and it's not clear to her at
that point who still might love
901
00:53:24,222 --> 00:53:27,085
her.
902
00:53:27,185 --> 00:53:31,529
I have no idea how Carolyn and
Annie related to each other,
903
00:53:31,629 --> 00:53:33,011
what it was like
to, you know, share
904
00:53:33,111 --> 00:53:36,535
the cabin along with
Maria, but what's
905
00:53:36,635 --> 00:53:41,140
interesting about Annie's
relationship or role in all
906
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:44,663
that is that there was
a letter that was found
907
00:53:44,763 --> 00:53:49,629
in Jonestown that she wrote to
Jim Jones in which she said--
908
00:53:49,729 --> 00:53:52,552
I just wanted for
you to know that I do not mind
909
00:53:52,652 --> 00:53:57,277
being your nurse, and there is
nothing more I would rather be.
910
00:53:57,377 --> 00:54:02,002
I would rather be around you
than anyone else in the world.
911
00:54:02,102 --> 00:54:07,568
I will do everything I can
think of to help keep you going.
912
00:54:07,668 --> 00:54:09,650
You can't
separate yourself from that--
913
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:12,053
that investment, that--
914
00:54:12,153 --> 00:54:14,856
all that you've poured in
there, how you're compromised
915
00:54:14,956 --> 00:54:18,379
yourself, how you've
colluded, and how you're
916
00:54:18,479 --> 00:54:20,982
tainted by all of that.
917
00:54:21,082 --> 00:54:23,104
It was only a matter of time.
918
00:54:28,170 --> 00:54:31,113
Well, think
that Jim Jones took his group
919
00:54:31,213 --> 00:54:33,395
down there because he was
afraid to face the publicity
920
00:54:33,495 --> 00:54:36,759
and answer the questions
here in this country,
921
00:54:36,859 --> 00:54:40,603
and I don't think that he feels
confident having people talk
922
00:54:40,703 --> 00:54:41,764
to their relatives.
923
00:54:41,864 --> 00:54:44,007
I think the only way he
can survive and sustain
924
00:54:44,107 --> 00:54:46,009
what he started
is to isolate all
925
00:54:46,109 --> 00:54:48,111
his followers from this country
and from their families.
926
00:55:00,684 --> 00:55:02,386
Back in the United States,
927
00:55:02,486 --> 00:55:07,071
the Concerned Relatives, working
with Maria Katsaris' father,
928
00:55:07,171 --> 00:55:11,756
Steven Katsaris, and others,
organised a very well-planned
929
00:55:11,856 --> 00:55:16,001
strategy to heighten public
awareness about what they felt
930
00:55:16,101 --> 00:55:19,845
were the dangers of Jonestown.
931
00:55:19,945 --> 00:55:23,809
They wrote a declaration
of human rights violations.
932
00:55:23,909 --> 00:55:25,010
Jones did this.
933
00:55:25,110 --> 00:55:26,532
Jones does that.
934
00:55:26,632 --> 00:55:28,134
Jones censors letters.
935
00:55:28,234 --> 00:55:31,137
Jones won't let people
leave, and so on.
936
00:55:31,237 --> 00:55:34,260
These actions might well have
been legitimate, but back
937
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,223
in Jonestown, it feels
like they're under attack.
938
00:55:37,323 --> 00:55:40,827
This declaration
prompted a response
939
00:55:40,927 --> 00:55:45,913
from Peoples Temple members,
including Maria Katsaris.
940
00:55:46,013 --> 00:55:46,914
OK, do you copy?
941
00:55:47,014 --> 00:55:49,016
MAN I copy.
942
00:56:07,796 --> 00:56:09,578
I don't think
Maria was brainwashed at all.
943
00:56:09,678 --> 00:56:12,661
I think she made a
series of commitments
944
00:56:12,761 --> 00:56:15,304
and that she lived within a
community that could not admit
945
00:56:15,404 --> 00:56:17,586
its mistakes.
946
00:56:17,686 --> 00:56:20,870
Maria's only choice in order
to stay loyal to her people
947
00:56:20,970 --> 00:56:22,832
was to openly
condemn her father.
948
00:56:42,112 --> 00:56:43,534
Steven loved his
daughter, and he
949
00:56:43,634 --> 00:56:45,536
had a lot of high hopes
for the kind of life
950
00:56:45,636 --> 00:56:46,818
that she would lead.
951
00:56:46,918 --> 00:56:49,821
And I think he
represented, like so many
952
00:56:49,921 --> 00:56:54,706
of the Concerned Relatives,
this kind of horror at the idea
953
00:56:54,806 --> 00:56:56,628
that their children
or their loved ones
954
00:56:56,728 --> 00:57:01,353
could turn their back
on the outside world.
955
00:57:01,453 --> 00:57:04,116
My father did not
agree to be part of Concerned
956
00:57:04,216 --> 00:57:08,561
Relatives, again, because
both he and my mother
957
00:57:08,661 --> 00:57:12,525
did not want to do anything that
would rupture the relationship
958
00:57:12,625 --> 00:57:15,288
that they had with
Carolyn and Annie,
959
00:57:15,388 --> 00:57:18,171
and this was definitely
confirmed by the fact
960
00:57:18,271 --> 00:57:22,095
that my folks visited Jonestown.
961
00:57:22,195 --> 00:57:25,539
And the reports were pretty
glowing because, as usual,
962
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:28,662
they only saw the
positive aspects of life
963
00:57:28,762 --> 00:57:32,386
in Peoples Temple and Jonestown.
964
00:57:32,486 --> 00:57:34,108
They had a good visit.
965
00:57:34,208 --> 00:57:36,831
They saw life in
Jonestown the way
966
00:57:36,931 --> 00:57:41,676
it could have been had
things really gone well.
967
00:57:41,776 --> 00:57:44,679
The work was hard, and
the conditions were tough.
968
00:57:44,779 --> 00:57:46,601
But there seemed to
be enough to eat,
969
00:57:46,701 --> 00:57:50,926
and people seem to
be in good spirits.
970
00:57:51,026 --> 00:57:52,568
That might have been
a false impression,
971
00:57:52,668 --> 00:57:55,851
but certainly,
they were relieved
972
00:57:55,951 --> 00:58:00,456
to see that my sisters were OK.
973
00:58:00,556 --> 00:58:02,739
When they came back,
the Temple leadership
974
00:58:02,839 --> 00:58:06,022
asked them to have a press
conference to counteract
975
00:58:06,122 --> 00:58:09,546
the bad publicity that they
had received from the Concerned
976
00:58:09,646 --> 00:58:11,648
Relatives.
977
00:58:39,718 --> 00:58:42,901
They felt that people
were engaged in something
978
00:58:43,001 --> 00:58:46,265
meaningful in Jonestown, and
that-- that they were doing
979
00:58:46,365 --> 00:58:48,367
something that they
felt was important.
980
00:59:21,362 --> 00:59:25,707
Even then, my parents were
kind of unwitting pawns
981
00:59:25,807 --> 00:59:30,672
or certainly unaware of what
was happening behind the scenes.
982
00:59:30,772 --> 00:59:34,717
Unknown to them, a couple of
days before they were there,
983
00:59:34,817 --> 00:59:36,819
Debbie Layton made her escape.
984
00:59:40,142 --> 00:59:43,846
Debbie was
treasurer, a secretary,
985
00:59:43,946 --> 00:59:48,411
and she was sent to Georgetown,
which is 150 miles away.
986
00:59:48,511 --> 00:59:50,493
And she went to the
American embassy
987
00:59:50,593 --> 00:59:52,295
and let them know
the man's crazy.
988
00:59:52,395 --> 00:59:53,617
He's going to kill those people.
989
00:59:53,717 --> 00:59:57,741
I want to go home
back to California.
990
00:59:57,841 --> 01:00:03,547
Debbie left and
went public with her charges
991
01:00:03,647 --> 01:00:07,311
that there were suicide drills,
that people were mistreated,
992
01:00:07,411 --> 01:00:11,836
that people were drugged,
and that she left in order
993
01:00:11,936 --> 01:00:15,280
to really save her own life
but also to save the lives
994
01:00:15,380 --> 01:00:18,123
of people who she left behind.
995
01:00:18,223 --> 01:00:21,967
And that was a huge blow
to the leadership of Peoples
996
01:00:22,067 --> 01:00:25,931
Temple, and the way that Jim
Jones and his leadership circle
997
01:00:26,031 --> 01:00:29,014
reacted to it was dramatic.
998
01:00:31,397 --> 01:00:33,940
- HUE FORTSON,
- I remember
we were weeding the pineapple
999
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,262
fields, and he
just starts saying,
1000
01:00:36,362 --> 01:00:38,184
alert, alert,
alert, alert, alert.
1001
01:00:38,284 --> 01:00:39,546
And I asked my leader, Jasmine.
1002
01:00:39,646 --> 01:00:40,547
I said, what is that?
1003
01:00:40,647 --> 01:00:43,310
She says, go immediately
to the pavilion.
1004
01:00:43,410 --> 01:00:45,072
Do not stop.
1005
01:00:45,172 --> 01:00:47,975
He began to share with us that
there had been a defection.
1006
01:01:07,315 --> 01:01:09,377
He won't let you.
1007
01:01:09,477 --> 01:01:11,299
He-- he won't let anybody out.
1008
01:01:11,399 --> 01:01:12,861
It's gone too far.
1009
01:01:12,961 --> 01:01:16,025
I mean, we were put through
a suicide trial once.
1010
01:01:16,125 --> 01:01:18,707
What's
a suicide trial?
1011
01:01:18,807 --> 01:01:20,309
He had a big meeting.
1012
01:01:20,409 --> 01:01:23,032
He said it was over, that the
mercenaries were coming in.
1013
01:01:23,132 --> 01:01:25,715
There was very little time left.
1014
01:01:25,815 --> 01:01:30,840
Everyone stood in a line,
went up, and drank this red--
1015
01:01:30,940 --> 01:01:34,484
you know, it was a kind of a--
1016
01:01:34,584 --> 01:01:38,448
tasted like-- what's this--
1017
01:01:38,548 --> 01:01:41,051
that thing-- the drink
little children drink,
1018
01:01:41,151 --> 01:01:42,733
but you have to put a
lot of sugar in it first?
1019
01:01:42,833 --> 01:01:44,835
Kool-Aid?
- Kool-Aid.
1020
01:01:57,208 --> 01:02:01,032
Debbie Layton had come out
and reported that there were
1021
01:02:01,132 --> 01:02:04,796
suicide drills, a
lack of adequate food,
1022
01:02:04,896 --> 01:02:07,399
a general atmosphere
of fear and terror
1023
01:02:07,499 --> 01:02:10,242
that were going on
in the community,
1024
01:02:10,342 --> 01:02:13,446
but we just didn't take
those reports seriously.
1025
01:02:13,546 --> 01:02:15,768
We never thought that they
would kill themselves.
1026
01:02:15,868 --> 01:02:21,154
That never occurred to us as
a possibility, I mean, really.
1027
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,904
What I'm trying
to say is, if we make a stand
1028
01:02:31,004 --> 01:02:34,628
or decide to die, how
are we going to do it?
1029
01:02:34,728 --> 01:02:36,831
Do you give everyone pills?
1030
01:02:36,931 --> 01:02:40,835
Perhaps planning is
the answer to all this.
1031
01:02:40,935 --> 01:02:42,276
Carolyn was very involved
1032
01:02:42,376 --> 01:02:46,000
in organising at all because
that was her role always.
1033
01:02:46,100 --> 01:02:51,206
She was very much the
mastermind of what was going on.
1034
01:02:51,306 --> 01:02:55,090
I think that Annie, you know,
would help out her sister
1035
01:02:55,190 --> 01:02:56,572
because she was
the younger sister,
1036
01:02:56,672 --> 01:02:59,495
and they had that relationship.
1037
01:02:59,595 --> 01:03:00,776
If we
killed ourselves,
1038
01:03:00,876 --> 01:03:04,180
maybe we would be
categorised as lunatics,
1039
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,103
but at least we would be assured
that our people could not
1040
01:03:07,203 --> 01:03:10,566
sell out or be tortured
or taken and brainwashed.
1041
01:03:14,811 --> 01:03:21,318
It's painful to relate, but
I know that my sisters were,
1042
01:03:21,418 --> 01:03:24,802
you know, certainly involved
in planning the deaths.
1043
01:03:24,902 --> 01:03:27,244
There were letters that went
back and forth that while it
1044
01:03:27,344 --> 01:03:30,768
doesn't state the
orders explicitly,
1045
01:03:30,868 --> 01:03:34,132
it was clear that
poison was what--
1046
01:03:34,232 --> 01:03:36,254
the letter that Annie
wrote to Carolyn.
1047
01:03:36,354 --> 01:03:38,356
Poison is what was suggested.
1048
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:42,501
I never
thought people would line up
1049
01:03:42,601 --> 01:03:44,663
to be killed.
1050
01:03:44,763 --> 01:03:47,386
I actually think a select group
would have to kill the majority
1051
01:03:47,486 --> 01:03:49,788
of people secretly.
1052
01:03:49,888 --> 01:03:51,430
The way?
1053
01:03:51,530 --> 01:03:54,834
I don't know-- exhaust
fumes in a closed area
1054
01:03:54,934 --> 01:03:59,218
while people are asleep,
poisoning food or water supply.
1055
01:04:03,062 --> 01:04:06,646
There had to be a
decision made about how much
1056
01:04:06,746 --> 01:04:13,013
cyanide per how much flavour aid
that would be necessary to kill
1057
01:04:13,113 --> 01:04:16,297
all the people in the community,
and the people who were
1058
01:04:16,397 --> 01:04:20,061
at the forefront of this
were Annie Moore, Carolyn
1059
01:04:20,161 --> 01:04:23,745
Layton, Maria Katsaris, and the
other women in the leadership
1060
01:04:23,845 --> 01:04:25,226
circle.
1061
01:04:25,326 --> 01:04:27,949
Jim's
followers enabled him.
1062
01:04:28,049 --> 01:04:32,073
They reinforced
his own delusions.
1063
01:04:32,173 --> 01:04:35,918
The leader corrupts the
followers by telling them lies,
1064
01:04:36,018 --> 01:04:39,401
but the followers
corrupt the leader
1065
01:04:39,501 --> 01:04:41,764
by pretending to
believe the lies.
1066
01:04:41,864 --> 01:04:46,249
And so there's this dynamic
relationship between Jim Jones
1067
01:04:46,349 --> 01:04:51,174
and Carolyn and Annie and
everybody where they accepted
1068
01:04:51,274 --> 01:04:54,577
each other's delusions,
and ultimately, it
1069
01:04:54,677 --> 01:04:57,440
led to the tragedy of Jonestown.
1070
01:05:07,371 --> 01:05:09,954
Congressman Leo Ryan
and his party of people related
1071
01:05:10,054 --> 01:05:13,357
to cult members, reporters,
and cameramen left the United
1072
01:05:13,457 --> 01:05:16,781
States for Georgetown, Guyana,
hoping to get to Jonestown.
1073
01:05:20,825 --> 01:05:23,048
The Concerned Relatives, working
1074
01:05:23,148 --> 01:05:26,852
with Maria Katsaris' father,
Steven Katsaris, and others,
1075
01:05:26,952 --> 01:05:32,298
got together and strategised
about ways to rescue or save
1076
01:05:32,398 --> 01:05:36,262
their relatives in Jonestown,
and their efforts ultimately
1077
01:05:36,362 --> 01:05:40,947
led to persuading Congressman
Leo Ryan to visit Jonestown.
1078
01:05:41,047 --> 01:05:44,230
Congressman Ryan was one of
these amazing larger-than-life
1079
01:05:44,330 --> 01:05:45,392
public figures.
1080
01:05:45,492 --> 01:05:47,474
Well, we're in the
process of determining--
1081
01:05:47,574 --> 01:05:52,079
trying to determine the degree
of concern we should have.
1082
01:05:52,179 --> 01:05:54,321
And so when he
was approached by Concerned
1083
01:05:54,421 --> 01:05:57,364
Relatives, he organised
a visit in order
1084
01:05:57,464 --> 01:06:00,888
to do some investigation
into whether the things
1085
01:06:00,988 --> 01:06:02,450
that the Concerned
Relatives were saying
1086
01:06:02,550 --> 01:06:06,094
were accurate or not.
1087
01:06:06,194 --> 01:06:09,417
In Jonestown, the leadership
circle was not sure
1088
01:06:09,517 --> 01:06:12,420
whether Jim would be able
to communicate adequately
1089
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:17,346
with Congressman Ryan, and there
was lots of planning for there
1090
01:06:17,446 --> 01:06:20,909
to be just brief meetings with
Jim Jones but lots of singing
1091
01:06:21,009 --> 01:06:22,952
and lots of interactions
with other people.
1092
01:06:23,052 --> 01:06:25,274
And Marceline was
to give the tour,
1093
01:06:25,374 --> 01:06:29,519
and there was a lot of
pressure on the leadership
1094
01:06:29,619 --> 01:06:33,323
to make everything look OK at
Jonestown, even though they
1095
01:06:33,423 --> 01:06:34,804
knew that it was, in
fact, falling apart.
1096
01:06:36,466 --> 01:06:38,688
The stage had been set long
1097
01:06:38,788 --> 01:06:41,772
before his arrival
for the mass murders
1098
01:06:41,872 --> 01:06:44,254
and suicides in Jonestown.
1099
01:06:44,354 --> 01:06:47,097
The poison had
already been ordered.
1100
01:06:47,197 --> 01:06:50,781
The poison had been tested
on pigs in the community.
1101
01:06:50,881 --> 01:06:53,704
There were a few people
who were in on the secret,
1102
01:06:53,804 --> 01:06:57,709
but the plan obviously
had already been made.
1103
01:06:57,809 --> 01:06:59,751
The only thing that
was in question
1104
01:06:59,851 --> 01:07:02,053
was, when would the
plan be implemented?
1105
01:07:22,995 --> 01:07:26,139
Are you happy here?
1106
01:07:26,239 --> 01:07:28,822
Yes, I'm very happy.
1107
01:07:28,922 --> 01:07:31,665
Do you know that
your father and your brother
1108
01:07:31,765 --> 01:07:34,588
are convinced that you're not?
1109
01:07:34,688 --> 01:07:35,949
I'm very happy here.
1110
01:07:36,049 --> 01:07:37,711
I don't know what else I
can do to convince them.
1111
01:07:37,811 --> 01:07:40,114
I've talked to my brother
several hours now,
1112
01:07:40,214 --> 01:07:42,316
and as far as my
father's concerned,
1113
01:07:42,416 --> 01:07:44,438
you know, I-- so far, he has
said what he wants to say,
1114
01:07:44,538 --> 01:07:46,641
which has not been the truth.
1115
01:07:46,741 --> 01:07:49,083
He's asking me to come
back to the United States
1116
01:07:49,183 --> 01:07:51,166
to spend a week to
convince him and my family
1117
01:07:51,266 --> 01:07:53,288
that I'm not being held
here against my will,
1118
01:07:53,388 --> 01:07:56,491
and I don't plan to return at
this time to convince anybody
1119
01:07:56,591 --> 01:07:57,653
because I know I'm happy here.
1120
01:07:57,753 --> 01:07:59,755
And I know my mind.
1121
01:08:01,076 --> 01:08:02,418
Maria previously had
1122
01:08:02,518 --> 01:08:07,703
been cheerful and easygoing,
and she-- she became somewhat
1123
01:08:07,803 --> 01:08:10,867
hard and distant.
1124
01:08:10,967 --> 01:08:14,751
All that mattered was what
was happening around Jim
1125
01:08:14,851 --> 01:08:16,873
and what she was told to do.
1126
01:08:19,736 --> 01:08:21,558
The leadership
decided that what they needed
1127
01:08:21,658 --> 01:08:25,082
to do was put on an
excellent program
1128
01:08:25,182 --> 01:08:28,085
so that they could turn down
the volume on the criticism that
1129
01:08:28,185 --> 01:08:29,567
was coming.
1130
01:08:29,667 --> 01:08:33,050
That might have worked out fine,
except that while Congressman
1131
01:08:33,150 --> 01:08:36,053
Ryan was there with his camera
crew and some journalists
1132
01:08:36,153 --> 01:08:41,379
from San Francisco, a note got
handed to one of them saying
1133
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:43,141
that two people
wanted to defect.
1134
01:08:45,844 --> 01:08:48,407
Last night, someone
came and passed me this note.
1135
01:09:00,099 --> 01:09:02,121
Congressman Ryan
asked if there was anybody else
1136
01:09:02,221 --> 01:09:03,162
that wanted to leave.
1137
01:09:03,262 --> 01:09:06,085
A family of eight
and a family of six
1138
01:09:06,185 --> 01:09:11,091
who had been with Peoples
Temple for 20 years had had it.
1139
01:09:11,191 --> 01:09:12,893
They were exhausted.
1140
01:09:12,993 --> 01:09:15,816
They were sick,
and they were done.
1141
01:09:15,916 --> 01:09:19,900
And they asked to leave, and so
they left with Congressman Ryan
1142
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,024
and the rest of the news crew.
1143
01:09:23,124 --> 01:09:24,625
You get back here!
1144
01:09:24,725 --> 01:09:25,626
Hold on a second.
1145
01:09:25,726 --> 01:09:27,268
You are-- you bring them back!
1146
01:09:27,368 --> 01:09:28,029
One second.
1147
01:09:28,129 --> 01:09:29,550
Don't you touch my kids.
1148
01:09:30,611 --> 01:09:31,673
Hold on a second.
1149
01:09:31,773 --> 01:09:34,756
Mother, they
on taking my kids.
1150
01:09:34,856 --> 01:09:35,457
Wait, wait,
1151
01:09:35,537 --> 01:09:36,398
No.
1152
01:09:36,498 --> 01:09:37,159
Wait.
1153
01:09:38,420 --> 01:09:40,242
And they went to the
Port Kaituma Airstrip
1154
01:09:40,342 --> 01:09:42,344
in order to leave Guyana.
1155
01:09:44,947 --> 01:09:48,611
It was clear to the
leadership of Peoples Temple
1156
01:09:48,711 --> 01:09:52,175
that these were enemies, that
these were people who were
1157
01:09:52,275 --> 01:09:54,257
defecting, that these were
people who were going to bring
1158
01:09:54,357 --> 01:09:56,359
about the disbanding
of the community.
1159
01:10:00,804 --> 01:10:06,029
This was the moment when the
real choice between are we
1160
01:10:06,129 --> 01:10:11,475
together in death or are we
dispersed in life came to pass,
1161
01:10:11,575 --> 01:10:15,720
and it was because Congressman
Ryan had come for this visit.
1162
01:10:52,739 --> 01:10:56,563
This is "NBC Nightly News"
with Jessica Savage reporting.
1163
01:10:56,663 --> 01:10:58,045
Good evening.
1164
01:10:58,145 --> 01:11:00,327
The government of Guyana sent
troops into the remote jungle
1165
01:11:00,427 --> 01:11:02,329
of that country,
a jungle which was
1166
01:11:02,429 --> 01:11:05,333
the scene of a bizarre
chain of events that
1167
01:11:05,433 --> 01:11:08,456
led to the deaths of an American
Congressman and three newsmen.
1168
01:11:08,556 --> 01:11:10,298
They were gunned
down as they tried
1169
01:11:10,398 --> 01:11:12,500
to escort unhappy
settlers from the camp
1170
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,022
of an American religious sect.
1171
01:11:14,122 --> 01:11:15,624
They were going back home.
1172
01:11:15,724 --> 01:11:19,067
The report came back
that people from Peoples Temple
1173
01:11:19,167 --> 01:11:24,073
had opened fire on Congressman
Ryan and his film crew.
1174
01:11:24,173 --> 01:11:27,796
Congressman Ryan, Don Harris,
and two other journalists
1175
01:11:27,896 --> 01:11:29,278
died on the Port
Kaituma Airstrip.
1176
01:11:31,020 --> 01:11:36,165
This is the point at which
you realise that a plan was
1177
01:11:36,265 --> 01:11:38,268
in place for everybody to die.
1178
01:11:48,879 --> 01:11:50,781
At the time, I
was representing the Peoples
1179
01:11:50,881 --> 01:11:53,744
Temple in-- in a basketball
tournament in Georgetown,
1180
01:11:53,844 --> 01:11:56,787
and I don't know how things got
out of control at the airstrip.
1181
01:11:56,887 --> 01:11:58,149
I don't know.
1182
01:11:58,249 --> 01:12:00,712
I'm sure the order
came from my father.
1183
01:12:00,812 --> 01:12:04,035
So at that point, I think
he knew he was lost,
1184
01:12:04,135 --> 01:12:07,879
so that's why the
vat is brought out.
1185
01:12:07,979 --> 01:12:10,242
This time, it's real.
1186
01:12:10,342 --> 01:12:13,485
And so the
conversation began by Jim Jones
1187
01:12:13,585 --> 01:12:16,368
saying the time for
revolutionary suicide
1188
01:12:16,468 --> 01:12:18,470
has begun.
1189
01:12:33,086 --> 01:12:35,308
At that point, perhaps
there still would
1190
01:12:35,408 --> 01:12:39,032
have been a moment where
Marceline Jones might have
1191
01:12:39,132 --> 01:12:44,038
stood up and said,
let's not do this.
1192
01:12:44,138 --> 01:12:46,841
I think Marceline's role
in legitimizing the call
1193
01:12:46,941 --> 01:12:50,845
to suicide was in her silence.
1194
01:12:50,945 --> 01:12:56,891
I really do think that she was
herself so exhausted from all
1195
01:12:56,991 --> 01:13:02,017
these years of having
no privacy, no resources
1196
01:13:02,117 --> 01:13:05,060
of her own, sharing her
husband with the women
1197
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:10,346
of the community, seeing that
this ideal had become instead
1198
01:13:10,446 --> 01:13:17,233
this insular, paranoid,
violent community
1199
01:13:17,333 --> 01:13:21,358
that I think she didn't have
it in her to fight anymore.
1200
01:13:21,458 --> 01:13:23,520
I don't believe
and it's not my understanding
1201
01:13:23,620 --> 01:13:28,285
that she was one of the people
who orchestrated the suicide.
1202
01:13:28,385 --> 01:13:31,608
A part of her was lost in
trying to manage and mitigate
1203
01:13:31,708 --> 01:13:33,811
what my father did and
perhaps right to the end.
1204
01:13:33,911 --> 01:13:35,913
I don't know.
1205
01:13:53,732 --> 01:13:56,075
Truthfully, more than likely,
I probably would have died,
1206
01:13:56,175 --> 01:14:01,280
too, because he had painted
the picture that a mysterious
1207
01:14:01,380 --> 01:14:04,604
they was going to
come in and take our lives,
1208
01:14:04,704 --> 01:14:06,566
that we had nowhere to go.
1209
01:14:06,666 --> 01:14:08,528
I think there would have
been no other way out.
1210
01:14:08,628 --> 01:14:11,371
I wasn't even think about
running because they had
1211
01:14:11,471 --> 01:14:15,816
the crossbows and ammunition
and all the other stuff,
1212
01:14:15,916 --> 01:14:20,901
so I think I probably
would have taken my life.
1213
01:14:21,001 --> 01:14:22,743
I think on the 18th was--
1214
01:14:22,843 --> 01:14:24,345
there's so many
dynamics to that day.
1215
01:14:24,445 --> 01:14:26,627
And I believe that there
were some people that
1216
01:14:26,727 --> 01:14:28,389
were just exhausted.
1217
01:14:28,489 --> 01:14:31,512
I believe some people didn't
know that it was actually real.
1218
01:14:31,612 --> 01:14:36,037
I think people just thought,
well, what am I going to do?
1219
01:14:36,137 --> 01:14:39,441
Who do I have to go home to?
1220
01:14:39,541 --> 01:14:42,003
The night before, my
mother looked at me,
1221
01:14:42,103 --> 01:14:44,646
and she said, baby, I'm tired.
1222
01:14:44,746 --> 01:14:46,748
And she was 50 years old.
1223
01:15:03,406 --> 01:15:05,428
On the tape,
you hear a woman's voice,
1224
01:15:05,528 --> 01:15:08,832
and she starts to tell
people how to line up
1225
01:15:08,932 --> 01:15:11,915
to take the
cyanide-laced Kool-Aid
1226
01:15:12,015 --> 01:15:16,801
and to instruct people to give
it to their children first.
1227
01:15:16,901 --> 01:15:18,002
And then the dying begins.
1228
01:15:55,662 --> 01:15:59,446
I don't really know where
Carolyn and Annie were
1229
01:15:59,546 --> 01:16:03,691
in Jonestown on November 18.
1230
01:16:03,791 --> 01:16:06,814
There are conflicting
reports about Annie.
1231
01:16:06,914 --> 01:16:09,737
Some say that she was one of the
nurses that was administering
1232
01:16:09,837 --> 01:16:11,499
the poison.
1233
01:16:11,599 --> 01:16:13,981
Others say, no, she
was in Joan's cabin,
1234
01:16:14,081 --> 01:16:18,546
taking care of her nephew
Kimo and John Victor Stoen.
1235
01:16:18,646 --> 01:16:23,031
Carolyn does not seem
to be present anywhere,
1236
01:16:23,131 --> 01:16:26,275
neither in the pavilion where
the deaths were occurring,
1237
01:16:26,375 --> 01:16:31,120
nor in Joan's cabin,
but she was definitely
1238
01:16:31,220 --> 01:16:36,405
part of the planning process in
deciding how people were going
1239
01:16:36,505 --> 01:16:38,508
to die.
1240
01:16:41,551 --> 01:16:44,294
I lay the
suicide decision solidly
1241
01:16:44,394 --> 01:16:47,898
at the feet of that inner
circle that made it happen,
1242
01:16:47,998 --> 01:16:50,420
because Jim Jones could have
talked all day about committing
1243
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:54,304
suicide, but he was not in a
position to order the cyanide,
1244
01:16:54,404 --> 01:16:58,068
figure out the formula, mix
it, and force it on people.
1245
01:16:58,168 --> 01:17:00,431
So that meant that
he had people who
1246
01:17:00,531 --> 01:17:02,433
were complicit in that
decision and in the carrying
1247
01:17:02,533 --> 01:17:04,035
out of that decision.
1248
01:17:04,135 --> 01:17:06,838
They were on board,
that's for sure.
1249
01:17:06,938 --> 01:17:10,922
I don't know at what point
the scales tip and you
1250
01:17:11,022 --> 01:17:13,485
yourself are lost in the--
1251
01:17:13,585 --> 01:17:16,848
the delusion and the extremism.
1252
01:17:16,948 --> 01:17:18,490
I don't know how
that happens, where--
1253
01:17:18,590 --> 01:17:21,213
where you just completely
lose yourself to the story,
1254
01:17:21,313 --> 01:17:24,817
but they clearly had.
1255
01:17:24,917 --> 01:17:27,260
There's debate
about the extent to which
1256
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:30,383
people were forced
to take the poison,
1257
01:17:30,483 --> 01:17:32,785
and certainly, the
children were murdered.
1258
01:17:32,885 --> 01:17:37,030
But most of them were
murdered by their parents.
1259
01:17:37,130 --> 01:17:41,995
The masterful stroke was
persuading or forcing
1260
01:17:42,095 --> 01:17:45,679
people to kill their
children, and that's
1261
01:17:45,779 --> 01:17:48,923
quite clear on the tape that
the children are brought forward
1262
01:17:49,023 --> 01:17:50,324
first.
1263
01:17:50,424 --> 01:17:53,047
And after they're killed,
the tape ends with,
1264
01:17:53,147 --> 01:17:56,531
"and now the adults
come forward."
1265
01:17:56,631 --> 01:17:59,494
After you kill
your child, what's
1266
01:17:59,594 --> 01:18:01,596
your percentage in living?
1267
01:18:42,359 --> 01:18:45,783
I believe-- and many
people agree with this--
1268
01:18:45,883 --> 01:18:47,505
there was one vat of poison.
1269
01:18:47,605 --> 01:18:49,027
It really only took
one person to go up
1270
01:18:49,127 --> 01:18:51,589
and kick that thing over,
and Dad would have been--
1271
01:18:51,689 --> 01:18:54,993
he wouldn't have gotten it done.
1272
01:18:55,093 --> 01:18:58,917
Once the dying
had begun at the pavilion
1273
01:18:59,017 --> 01:19:01,880
and people were
actually already dead,
1274
01:19:01,980 --> 01:19:04,884
and it was clear that everybody
else was lining up in order
1275
01:19:04,984 --> 01:19:08,848
to get their
cyanide-laced Kool-Aid,
1276
01:19:08,948 --> 01:19:12,612
then Carolyn and Maria
went into the cabin
1277
01:19:12,712 --> 01:19:15,815
that they had shared
with Jim Jones and Annie.
1278
01:19:15,915 --> 01:19:19,699
And they gave cyanide
to their children,
1279
01:19:19,799 --> 01:19:21,802
and then they drank
it themselves.
1280
01:19:25,045 --> 01:19:27,348
One of the autopsies that
was done was of Carolyn,
1281
01:19:27,448 --> 01:19:30,431
and it was clear that she
had both injected herself
1282
01:19:30,531 --> 01:19:35,396
and drank the Kool-Aid so
that she was sure to die.
1283
01:19:35,496 --> 01:19:39,761
When the dying had stopped,
still Jim Jones lived.
1284
01:19:39,861 --> 01:19:45,126
He did not himself drink the
Kool-Aid of this organisation,
1285
01:19:45,226 --> 01:19:48,770
this church, this movement
that he had founded,
1286
01:19:48,870 --> 01:19:52,454
and at the very end
of the suicides,
1287
01:19:52,554 --> 01:19:58,100
the two people left alive
were Jim Jones and Annie.
1288
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:03,526
And so Annie Moore, his nurse,
took a gun and shot him.
1289
01:20:15,339 --> 01:20:21,205
Annie presumably was one
of the last people to die.
1290
01:20:21,305 --> 01:20:24,528
There's some speculation
that she shot Jim Jones.
1291
01:20:24,628 --> 01:20:26,290
I don't know what to think.
1292
01:20:26,390 --> 01:20:28,813
On the one hand, that supposedly
would prove what a coward
1293
01:20:28,913 --> 01:20:30,255
he is.
1294
01:20:30,355 --> 01:20:33,538
He can't even kill himself,
or maybe that's his last power
1295
01:20:33,638 --> 01:20:36,741
trip, is to have
someone else kill him.
1296
01:20:36,841 --> 01:20:40,025
But Annie left essentially
a suicide note,
1297
01:20:40,125 --> 01:20:42,768
and then she shot
herself in Joan's cabin.
1298
01:20:47,012 --> 01:20:49,355
I am 24
years of age right now
1299
01:20:49,455 --> 01:20:52,558
and don't expect to live.
1300
01:20:52,658 --> 01:20:54,841
I thought I should at
least make some attempt
1301
01:20:54,941 --> 01:20:58,204
to let the world know what Jim
Jones and the Peoples Temple
1302
01:20:58,304 --> 01:21:02,329
is or was all about.
1303
01:21:02,429 --> 01:21:06,894
I would say that Annie
Moore was the last loyalist
1304
01:21:06,994 --> 01:21:11,138
to the movement
and to Jim Jones.
1305
01:21:11,238 --> 01:21:15,142
Jonestown, the
most peaceful, loving community
1306
01:21:15,242 --> 01:21:19,908
that ever existed,
Jim Jones, the one who
1307
01:21:20,008 --> 01:21:23,351
made this paradise possible.
1308
01:21:23,451 --> 01:21:25,233
She also was somebody
1309
01:21:25,333 --> 01:21:27,756
who had given her whole
life over to the movement.
1310
01:21:27,856 --> 01:21:30,679
She believed that what they were
doing was making a difference,
1311
01:21:30,779 --> 01:21:33,242
that they really had
improved the lives of people,
1312
01:21:33,342 --> 01:21:37,166
and she was angry that the
outsiders that were detractors
1313
01:21:37,266 --> 01:21:40,089
against Peoples Temple had not
seen the good that they had
1314
01:21:40,189 --> 01:21:40,850
done.
1315
01:21:44,233 --> 01:21:47,177
What a
beautiful place this was.
1316
01:21:47,277 --> 01:21:49,699
The children loved
the jungle, learned
1317
01:21:49,799 --> 01:21:52,422
about animals and plants.
1318
01:21:52,522 --> 01:21:54,544
There were no cars
to run over them,
1319
01:21:54,644 --> 01:22:00,230
no child molesters to molest
them, nobody to hurt them.
1320
01:22:00,330 --> 01:22:02,673
They were the freest, most
intelligent children I had ever
1321
01:22:02,773 --> 01:22:04,775
known.
1322
01:22:07,218 --> 01:22:09,420
We died because he would
not let us live in peace.
1323
01:22:12,904 --> 01:22:14,806
Carolyn and Annie and, I think,
1324
01:22:14,906 --> 01:22:17,489
most of the members
of Peoples Temple
1325
01:22:17,589 --> 01:22:21,533
were drawn to it by a
strong desire to do good,
1326
01:22:21,633 --> 01:22:24,256
that they wanted to
change the world.
1327
01:22:24,356 --> 01:22:26,819
They thought that by being
part of Peoples Temple,
1328
01:22:26,919 --> 01:22:28,501
they could change the world.
1329
01:22:28,601 --> 01:22:30,142
It's sad.
1330
01:22:30,242 --> 01:22:33,546
I mean, how does a person get
from one place to the other?
1331
01:22:36,289 --> 01:22:40,033
Some of the funniest,
1332
01:22:40,133 --> 01:22:46,680
intelligent, creative
people that I've ever known
1333
01:22:46,780 --> 01:22:49,042
were in the Temple, and
we knew how to have fun.
1334
01:22:49,142 --> 01:22:53,247
And we seized those
moments for sure.
1335
01:22:53,347 --> 01:22:57,451
It doesn't mean that
Jonestown was a happy place.
1336
01:22:57,551 --> 01:23:00,495
Jim was
not standalone responsible
1337
01:23:00,595 --> 01:23:02,497
for every single thing.
1338
01:23:02,597 --> 01:23:06,141
I mean, at the end, his nurses
and mistresses and secretaries
1339
01:23:06,241 --> 01:23:08,023
were the ones who
put out the poison.
1340
01:23:08,123 --> 01:23:10,545
They were the ones
who arranged things.
1341
01:23:10,645 --> 01:23:13,108
So it wasn't that Jim
did was the mastermind
1342
01:23:13,208 --> 01:23:14,269
and did everything.
1343
01:23:14,369 --> 01:23:16,752
At the end, at the end,
it was his secretaries
1344
01:23:16,852 --> 01:23:19,174
who went on and
fulfilled his wishes.
1345
01:23:28,544 --> 01:23:32,249
People want to blame
Jim Jones for the deaths,
1346
01:23:32,349 --> 01:23:36,053
and certainly, in many
respects, it was his vision.
1347
01:23:36,153 --> 01:23:39,176
But he couldn't have
done it by himself.
1348
01:23:39,276 --> 01:23:40,778
There were lots of enablers.
1349
01:23:40,878 --> 01:23:42,880
There were lots of helpers.
1350
01:23:46,123 --> 01:23:47,585
One of
the people who survived--
1351
01:23:47,685 --> 01:23:53,311
and this woman lost her
children in Jonestown.
1352
01:23:53,411 --> 01:23:55,553
Many years later,
we got together.
1353
01:23:55,653 --> 01:23:58,236
And she came up to me, and she
was talking about my mother.
1354
01:23:58,336 --> 01:24:02,120
And she said, your mother--
it was just all praise--
1355
01:24:02,220 --> 01:24:03,482
lovely person.
1356
01:24:03,582 --> 01:24:05,003
She's the reason I stayed.
1357
01:24:05,103 --> 01:24:06,685
And she meant that
as a compliment,
1358
01:24:06,785 --> 01:24:09,088
but as she was saying
it, she caught it
1359
01:24:09,188 --> 01:24:11,010
because, you know,
them staying led
1360
01:24:11,110 --> 01:24:14,654
to the death of their children.
1361
01:24:14,754 --> 01:24:17,377
Maria Katsaris, Annie Moore, Carolyn
1362
01:24:17,477 --> 01:24:21,982
Layton, and, of course,
Marceline took a situation,
1363
01:24:22,082 --> 01:24:25,345
and they gained power from it.
1364
01:24:25,445 --> 01:24:30,431
And they were able to manipulate
a huge number of people
1365
01:24:30,531 --> 01:24:34,155
and influence Jim in ways
that I'm sure that they did,
1366
01:24:34,255 --> 01:24:35,756
but they knew exactly
what was going on.
1367
01:24:35,856 --> 01:24:37,558
They're accountable, also.
1368
01:24:37,658 --> 01:24:41,322
They're enablers, so I--
1369
01:24:41,422 --> 01:24:44,766
I don't have a lot of
compassion for them.
1370
01:24:44,866 --> 01:24:47,168
And I don't pity them.
1371
01:24:47,268 --> 01:24:50,732
I just think I
forgive them, though.
1372
01:24:50,832 --> 01:24:52,994
I-- I forgive them.
105121
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