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The computer system Post Office
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Oh, my God, it's just doubled
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I haven't got that money.
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The Horizon system
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The losses must have been caused
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How many other subpostmasters
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Six. Who will go on the record?
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I'm thinking set up a meeting,
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see if anyone turns up.
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The Post Office told us
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That was a lie.
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From this moment forwards,
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none of us
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I just think you've made a mistake,
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I know, but they said if I pleaded
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How is that ever gonna work?
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You'll be a convicted criminal.
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Look, I'm your husband, and I have
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Was on my own in the interview.
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I thought I was doing
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Jas, please.
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You should've pleaded not guilty
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Come on. We're gonna be late.
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ENGINE REVS
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It was unbelievable.
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The lowest day of my life.
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Uh, hi.
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Uh... sorry we're late.
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Um, got a bit lost. Sorry.
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Are you... Is this...?
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We're all former subpostmasters.
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Please, uh... find a seat.
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Uh, I'm Jaz Singh.
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I'm Sam, from Walsall.
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Well, we're all sharing our stories,
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I don't know if you want to...
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I had no problems till they sent us
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They just won't have it that there's
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They say I'm piggybacking -
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going into the till
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and paying myself with the other.
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I'm guessing they also said you were
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And I'm guessing they said the same
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to everyone else in this room,
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I'm such a fool, I believed them.
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I believed them when they said,
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"Just confess
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"and you'll be back in your shop
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You shouldn't have done that.
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It was the new PIN pad.
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It was.... It wasn't her fault.
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Actually, I pleaded guilty too.
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So did I.
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You did? I can't believe it.
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I-I-I thought we were on our own,
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Not any more.
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I'm a mother.
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Look. We're changing your plea, OK?
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Not guilty.
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And this time,
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Hey.
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Now, if you're thinking of going
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Well, there are people here
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We've all lost our businesses
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The question is,
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MPs, neither use nor ornament.
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Stop it.
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Be nice. At least he's taken
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Um... Mrs Hamilton?
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James Arbuthnot.
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Thank you for coming.
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My pleasure.
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Jo's mum.
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So, one way or another,
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we're all fighting back
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We're even thinking
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I'd like to see you try,
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Well, good job talking to your MP
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Is this homemade?
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Thank you, I will.
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We thought maybe you could talk
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Yes, indeed.
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There are two other cases
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Wow. Really?
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It's very odd, isn't it?
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I mean, the Post Office
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You think you could trust them
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Personally, Mr Arbuthnot...
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..I wouldn't trust them
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I'm going to ask
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see how many members
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make an approach to Post Office
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I think I feel a campaign coming on.
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Oh, that's lovely.
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And so my client, Mrs Kaur,
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seeks permission to change her plea
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This is because she had
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during her interview under caution,
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and because there is also
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which you may consider requires
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concerning a PIN pad.
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I can't see anything here.
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Her PIN pad was faulty.
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Very well, Mrs Kaur,
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How do you now plead?
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Not guilty.
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Is that him?
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He's got a bloody nerve.
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Federation man.
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A federation man
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How do we know we can trust him?
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We don't.
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Michael.
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Found us, then?
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Never even heard of Fenny Compton.
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MURMURING
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All right, everyone,
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Shall we make a start? Thanks.
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Right.
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So, welcome to the second meeting
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of the Justice For Subpostmasters
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Now, before we get on
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we have a guest
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This is Michael Rudkin, friends,
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an executive officer of the National
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DISGRUNTLED MURMURING
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Not any more.
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The federation sent me back
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said they wouldn't represent me.
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They told me to get
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And that was the last I heard
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My so-called union has been in bed
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I can either leave
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or I can tell you my story.
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Up to you, pal.
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You think you're the little guys,
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facing up to one powerful enemy?
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Post Office don't make
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No, they don't... design the kit.
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They don't write the software,
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That's Fujitsu.
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Multinational corporation.
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I've been there.
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Two years ago, I got myself
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to sort out the issue with
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that we were all
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Er, Michael Rudkin,
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Thanks, mate.
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'19th of August 2008.'
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Cheers. Thanks, mate.
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George Delph, hi.
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Hi. Good to meet you.
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Welcome to Fujitsu.
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If you'd like to follow me.
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Horizon is the largest IT system
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We're very proud of that.
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Cost a billion pounds.
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We've rolled out 40,000 terminals
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So this accounts for all
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'All I'm expecting is he'll give me
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All right.
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That must be why a lot of my members
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about your rubbish
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DELPH SCOFFS
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A lot of my members
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Oh, the bottom line!
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Meet your friendly
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I get in there, and this guy sits
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So, easiest way to help
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how to adjust your stock control
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And I said to him, "Is this live?"
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Sure. Look at the clock.
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So, if I start by adjusting this
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'And I said to him...'
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You're inside
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and he doesn't know.
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He said, "yeah".
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"Yeah, I am."
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How else am I gonna show you
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'And then,
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'he starts changing
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Excuse me.
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I've been telling my members
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no-one else has access
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Uh, OK. Well, um...
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I'd better put the figures
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or they won't balance tonight.
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'Ladies and gentlemen,
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It means they can sneak in
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change your figures,
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It's remote access.
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Well, makes sense.
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It's how they send updates
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No, no. No, the help line.
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They said that was impossible.
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They said the branch accounts
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That's what they told me.
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They lied.
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JO: But if they're getting
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and messing about in there...
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Then it's a bit rich
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that we have 100% responsibility
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Exactly.
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So, I drive home from Fujitsu.
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The next morning, I wake up,
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and my wife is stood
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and there's an auditor beside her.
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"Your Post Office is now
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MURMURING
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Coincidence?
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Revenge.
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My wife ran the Post Office when
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So, although I was
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..my poor wife...
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..is now a convicted criminal.
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MURMURING AND GASPS
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You're welcome.
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JO: Wait.
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Mr Rudkin, thank you.
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Thank you.
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UNDER BREATH:
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AGITATED MURMURS
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So they punished him.
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They punished him
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It's what they did to me.
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They knew I had to fight them,
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but they knew
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They just did it
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to teach everyone
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That's what we're up against.
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The Post Office
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so it's going to take
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as it's now 36 charges.
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How many?
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No, no, no, that's totally wrong.
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I've got the indictment right here,
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It's definitely now 36 charges.
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But... it was 19.
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Where have all these new ones
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Sam?
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And what about this - her shortfall?
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It's now 11,000.
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You're selling everyone stamps
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We love the Queen, don't we?
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Is she all right?
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All these delays,
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Jas, I think we should get
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When cases go on and on like this,
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She's fine.
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I'll just go and see
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Everyone's eyes are on me.
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It's OK.
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PHONE RINGS
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JAS: Sam, can you get the phone?
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Hello?
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Oh, it's Jo.
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Gosh, you had me worried there.
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'Are you OK?'
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I'm up and down.
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Are you getting out at all?
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Oh, I can't go out.
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Not to the gurdwara,
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I see people I know, and sometimes,
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and I wonder...
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..do they think
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Oh, Sam... if I just had the money
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CHUCKLES
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THUD
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Sam, what is it?
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It's OK, it's OK.
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It's just the postman.
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Every time the door goes...
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I think it's them, come to get me.
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Oh.
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'Oh, you poor thing.'
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Yeah, I'd no idea this
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I thought I was the only one.
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There were nights I was just
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how to get out of this mess.
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It sounds like
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Well, it's not just me
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'I just think that the Post Office
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'There's just got
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'cos it can't be happening
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Jo was great.
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She's a natural.
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Yeah, but who's listening?
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How concerned are you about these
289
00:16:25,159 --> 00:16:27,960
'I'm very concerned about this.
290
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,960
'Cases seem to be cropping up
291
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,960
And who knew
292
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,960
'The Post Office have been,
293
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,799
'in the way they've taken
294
00:16:36,799 --> 00:16:39,960
Trouble is,
295
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,960
'And I think their bosses need
296
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,479
'and be more sympathetic.'
297
00:17:10,959 --> 00:17:12,318
PAULA VENNELLS: Be ready.
298
00:17:12,318 --> 00:17:17,959
'There are a tiny number
299
00:17:17,959 --> 00:17:19,959
'who appear to be making
300
00:17:19,959 --> 00:17:22,959
'with respect to the operation
301
00:17:22,959 --> 00:17:24,959
But in two of the cases,
302
00:17:24,959 --> 00:17:28,959
the individuals have in the past
303
00:17:28,959 --> 00:17:31,160
I have written back
304
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,959
making clear
305
00:17:33,959 --> 00:17:36,959
does not accept
306
00:17:36,959 --> 00:17:38,959
that are being made
307
00:17:38,959 --> 00:17:40,959
and will robustly
308
00:17:40,959 --> 00:17:44,000
if any civil action is mounted
309
00:17:46,959 --> 00:17:48,800
ALAN: Freedom of information.
310
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:49,959
Just when you think
311
00:17:49,959 --> 00:17:52,959
they come up with a new trick
312
00:17:52,959 --> 00:17:53,959
Listen to this.
313
00:17:53,959 --> 00:17:55,959
You're only allowed a question,
314
00:17:55,959 --> 00:17:57,959
to ask a question,
315
00:17:57,959 --> 00:18:01,959
that will take one person
316
00:18:01,959 --> 00:18:03,959
I mean, what?
317
00:18:05,959 --> 00:18:07,959
What do you think?
318
00:18:07,959 --> 00:18:09,640
Hey.
319
00:18:12,479 --> 00:18:13,959
Trying to have a life here, Alan.
320
00:18:23,959 --> 00:18:24,959
I...
321
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:32,959
I just want to be able to...
322
00:18:32,959 --> 00:18:36,959
A proper holiday abroad.
323
00:18:36,959 --> 00:18:38,959
Not just... camping.
324
00:18:40,959 --> 00:18:45,959
And still half of Snowdonia
325
00:18:47,959 --> 00:18:53,959
A, the Post Office has taken
326
00:18:53,959 --> 00:18:57,959
B, my knees are way too old
327
00:18:58,959 --> 00:19:02,160
And, C, you can't possibly
328
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,959
You're too busy campaigning,
329
00:19:07,959 --> 00:19:10,160
This is all taking too long.
330
00:19:14,959 --> 00:19:16,959
'My next guest is famous
331
00:19:16,959 --> 00:19:19,959
'with hidden camera comedy shows
332
00:19:26,959 --> 00:19:28,160
FRONT DOOR OPENS
333
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,959
Hiya. You OK? Sorry I'm late.
334
00:19:32,959 --> 00:19:34,959
SHE GASPS
335
00:19:35,959 --> 00:19:36,959
SHE SHUDDERS
336
00:19:37,959 --> 00:19:41,640
Got held up, so...
337
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:44,959
It's OK.
338
00:19:44,959 --> 00:19:48,959
Sammy, what...? What have you...?
339
00:19:48,959 --> 00:19:50,479
Sam!
340
00:19:50,479 --> 00:19:53,800
It's OK.
341
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,959
Why have you done this? Huh?
342
00:19:55,959 --> 00:19:58,959
Sam, look at me. What...?
343
00:19:58,959 --> 00:20:00,479
I had to do something.
344
00:20:00,479 --> 00:20:01,959
'999.'
345
00:20:01,959 --> 00:20:03,959
I need an ambulance, please.
346
00:20:03,959 --> 00:20:06,800
45 Falfield Road, Walsall.
347
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,639
UNDER BREATH: It's not fair.
348
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,959
B for Bravo.
349
00:20:20,959 --> 00:20:22,959
I don't want to do it.
350
00:20:22,959 --> 00:20:24,959
SOBBING: I tried everything.
351
00:20:24,959 --> 00:20:27,959
I tried everything, Jas,
352
00:20:27,959 --> 00:20:31,959
I know, it's OK, I'm here.
353
00:20:31,959 --> 00:20:35,959
Hey, can you stop staring at us?
354
00:20:37,959 --> 00:20:39,959
Sam, come on. It's OK, Sam.
355
00:20:41,959 --> 00:20:44,640
What's the next one?
356
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,959
Candy, OK. See if you can find it.
357
00:20:47,959 --> 00:20:50,959
He's doing well. Yeah, he'll
358
00:20:50,959 --> 00:20:53,160
HE CHUCKLES
359
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,959
KNOCK ON DOOR
360
00:20:55,959 --> 00:20:58,959
Hello. Mr Singh?
361
00:20:58,959 --> 00:21:01,640
Yeah, yeah.
362
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,959
Yeah. Um, two minutes
363
00:21:09,959 --> 00:21:11,959
NURSE: Hey, how are you doing?
364
00:21:11,959 --> 00:21:15,959
'I want to stress she'll be sedated,
365
00:21:15,959 --> 00:21:17,959
ECT had a lot of bad press
366
00:21:17,959 --> 00:21:21,160
but we continue to find it
367
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,959
to patients as severely depressed
368
00:21:26,959 --> 00:21:29,959
And nothing else we've tried
369
00:21:32,959 --> 00:21:35,959
Just don't go home and Google it,
370
00:21:38,959 --> 00:21:41,959
We'll talk more later.
371
00:21:54,959 --> 00:21:56,959
Like you're not gonna Google it.
372
00:21:56,959 --> 00:21:58,959
'I know. It's mad.'
373
00:22:00,959 --> 00:22:02,000
But you know the worst thing, Jo?
374
00:22:04,959 --> 00:22:08,640
If I'd have let her carry on
375
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,959
in the first place...
376
00:22:10,959 --> 00:22:13,959
all right, yeah, she-she might have
377
00:22:15,959 --> 00:22:17,959
..she'd be out by now.
378
00:22:17,959 --> 00:22:20,959
Oh, Jas.
379
00:22:20,959 --> 00:22:22,959
My boy would have a mother.
380
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:26,959
And Sam would be free.
381
00:22:28,959 --> 00:22:30,479
BEEPING
382
00:22:32,959 --> 00:22:34,959
WOMAN: Treat.
383
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,959
PAULA VENNELLS: The problem
384
00:23:00,959 --> 00:23:02,160
Very few complaints.
385
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,479
But this is a very serious matter
386
00:23:06,479 --> 00:23:10,160
whose business rests on our
387
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,959
Well, we all represent
388
00:23:13,959 --> 00:23:16,959
that your helpline
389
00:23:16,959 --> 00:23:19,959
that the training you offer
390
00:23:19,959 --> 00:23:22,959
Angela is our
391
00:23:22,959 --> 00:23:23,959
Thank you. Um...
392
00:23:24,959 --> 00:23:27,959
Well, the helpline
393
00:23:27,959 --> 00:23:32,959
Now, whether staff take it up
394
00:23:32,959 --> 00:23:35,959
Mrs Vennells,
395
00:23:35,959 --> 00:23:39,959
that Horizon is 100% foolproof?
396
00:23:39,959 --> 00:23:42,959
Because that would make it
397
00:23:42,959 --> 00:23:45,959
ever implemented by government.
398
00:23:45,959 --> 00:23:47,959
The system is robust.
399
00:23:47,959 --> 00:23:50,959
Gentlemen, we have nothing to hide.
400
00:23:50,959 --> 00:23:54,959
Indeed, we're ready to mount
401
00:23:55,959 --> 00:23:58,959
Well, that's marvellous,
402
00:23:58,959 --> 00:24:00,959
and the Justice For
403
00:24:00,959 --> 00:24:03,959
will be thrilled
404
00:24:15,959 --> 00:24:17,959
Bet you've missed me, Susan.
405
00:24:17,959 --> 00:24:21,640
How is life in the sleepy
406
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,959
I wish.
407
00:24:24,959 --> 00:24:26,959
I'm a proud public servant now.
408
00:24:26,959 --> 00:24:30,959
Well, I'd wager it's not half
409
00:24:30,959 --> 00:24:34,959
Chasing down villains
410
00:24:34,959 --> 00:24:36,959
Susan.
411
00:24:37,959 --> 00:24:40,959
Is that what we're doing here?
412
00:24:40,959 --> 00:24:41,959
That's why I hired you.
413
00:24:46,959 --> 00:24:49,959
Ah. Angela Van Den Bogerd
414
00:24:49,959 --> 00:24:53,640
Bob Rutherford from Second Sight.
415
00:24:54,479 --> 00:24:56,479
Here to help.
416
00:24:56,479 --> 00:24:58,959
We've pulled a dozen files
417
00:24:58,959 --> 00:25:01,959
all the cases
418
00:25:01,959 --> 00:25:03,959
Anything else you want, though,
419
00:25:03,959 --> 00:25:07,959
Accounts, procedures, backgrounds,
420
00:25:07,959 --> 00:25:10,959
And I'd like to visit Fujitsu
421
00:25:10,959 --> 00:25:13,959
No problem.
422
00:25:13,959 --> 00:25:16,160
Oh, are you not staying?
423
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,959
Knowing you of old, Bob, I imagine
424
00:25:20,959 --> 00:25:22,000
Thank you, all.
425
00:25:23,959 --> 00:25:25,959
JO: 'Alan, you can't go
426
00:25:25,959 --> 00:25:29,959
'Because how will you know
427
00:25:29,959 --> 00:25:32,959
'And because she's my neighbour,
428
00:25:32,959 --> 00:25:33,959
'and she wants to help.'
429
00:25:33,959 --> 00:25:38,640
"Kay Linnell,
430
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,959
'Kay Linnell, forensic accountant.
431
00:25:40,959 --> 00:25:43,479
'Alan, bite her hand off!'
432
00:25:43,479 --> 00:25:44,959
Alan?
433
00:25:47,959 --> 00:25:49,959
Alan Bates?
434
00:25:51,479 --> 00:25:53,959
Kay Linnell,
435
00:25:53,959 --> 00:25:55,959
of the Worshipful Company
436
00:25:55,959 --> 00:25:57,640
You've been looking me up.
437
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,959
And Board of the Inland Revenue's
438
00:26:01,959 --> 00:26:03,800
and Investigating Accountant.
439
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,959
Now, that was a fun job.
440
00:26:05,959 --> 00:26:07,959
Shall we?
441
00:26:08,959 --> 00:26:10,319
May I underline that,
442
00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:12,640
although the Post Office
443
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,959
this independent investigation,
444
00:26:14,959 --> 00:26:16,959
Mr Rutherford's organisation,
445
00:26:16,959 --> 00:26:18,959
will be working for us, the MPs,
446
00:26:18,959 --> 00:26:22,959
and therefore, indirectly, for you,
447
00:26:22,959 --> 00:26:25,959
Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance.
448
00:26:25,959 --> 00:26:26,959
So...
449
00:26:26,959 --> 00:26:30,959
Alan, Kay,
450
00:26:30,959 --> 00:26:32,800
Well, I'd like to know
451
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,959
exactly what makes you think
452
00:26:34,959 --> 00:26:38,959
Well, I'm a forensic accountant
453
00:26:38,959 --> 00:26:43,479
I don't doubt your paper
454
00:26:43,479 --> 00:26:44,959
I have them here in front of me.
455
00:26:44,959 --> 00:26:47,640
But I see nothing to persuade me
456
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,479
that Second Sight
457
00:26:50,479 --> 00:26:53,959
of producing
458
00:26:53,959 --> 00:26:55,959
One that's ready
459
00:26:55,959 --> 00:26:58,959
Bob Rutherford is a member
460
00:26:58,959 --> 00:27:00,959
of Certified Fraud Examiners.
461
00:27:00,959 --> 00:27:02,959
He has led hundreds
462
00:27:02,959 --> 00:27:06,959
into banking fraud, corruption,
463
00:27:06,959 --> 00:27:08,959
Doesn't answer my question.
464
00:27:08,959 --> 00:27:12,319
How can we be sure
465
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:13,959
and independently?
466
00:27:13,959 --> 00:27:16,959
Because the people
467
00:27:16,959 --> 00:27:21,800
and they want to hire me because
468
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,959
which is to clear innocent people
469
00:27:26,959 --> 00:27:28,319
I still don't see
470
00:27:28,319 --> 00:27:30,959
when he's taking Post Office money.
471
00:27:30,959 --> 00:27:33,959
Well, you can't pay him.
472
00:27:33,959 --> 00:27:35,959
I'll help in my spare time.
473
00:27:35,959 --> 00:27:38,959
What I really need is lawyers
474
00:27:38,959 --> 00:27:39,959
KAY CHUCKLES
475
00:27:39,959 --> 00:27:43,000
One day, you'll find
476
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,800
and we'll get this scandal
477
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,959
But we'll need evidence
478
00:27:48,959 --> 00:27:50,959
of getting our hands on.
479
00:27:50,959 --> 00:27:53,959
But Bob's outfit, Second Sight...
480
00:27:53,959 --> 00:27:57,959
they'll have access
481
00:27:58,959 --> 00:28:00,959
This Bob...
482
00:28:00,959 --> 00:28:03,959
he can't just look
483
00:28:03,959 --> 00:28:06,959
He has to look at Horizon
484
00:28:06,959 --> 00:28:10,959
Am I to take it you're happy
485
00:28:10,959 --> 00:28:14,959
Well, being as it's the only one
486
00:28:23,959 --> 00:28:26,319
JO: When I first came
487
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:31,000
they were introducing chip and PIN,
488
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,959
The base unit,
489
00:28:36,959 --> 00:28:38,959
whatever you call it,
490
00:28:38,959 --> 00:28:40,959
the thing that sits
491
00:28:40,959 --> 00:28:43,959
I thought of it
492
00:28:43,959 --> 00:28:46,959
Sometimes, engineers
493
00:28:46,959 --> 00:28:48,160
with their clever badges on,
494
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,959
and I never had any idea
495
00:28:55,959 --> 00:28:59,959
This is probably
496
00:28:59,959 --> 00:29:01,959
There are no such things
497
00:29:01,959 --> 00:29:03,160
only stupid answers.
498
00:29:06,959 --> 00:29:09,959
That £36,000
499
00:29:11,959 --> 00:29:13,959
..where did it go?
500
00:29:13,959 --> 00:29:15,959
I haven't got it.
501
00:29:15,959 --> 00:29:16,959
So who has?
502
00:29:18,959 --> 00:29:21,959
I don't know...
503
00:29:21,959 --> 00:29:23,959
but I'm going to find out.
504
00:29:36,959 --> 00:29:39,959
MICHAEL RUDKIN:
505
00:29:39,959 --> 00:29:42,959
We're private people, Bob.
506
00:29:42,959 --> 00:29:44,959
This was our family home.
507
00:29:46,959 --> 00:29:48,319
But the Post office gave us
508
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:51,800
No other way of making a living.
509
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,959
Thank you.
510
00:29:54,959 --> 00:29:56,000
Cheers, love.
511
00:29:59,959 --> 00:30:02,959
My wife has had it
512
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,959
Susan was in charge while I was
513
00:30:10,959 --> 00:30:14,959
She never told me, so I had no idea
514
00:30:14,959 --> 00:30:16,959
Even though at least half
515
00:30:16,959 --> 00:30:17,959
was Horizon-related by then.
516
00:30:20,959 --> 00:30:21,959
I said to her...
517
00:30:23,959 --> 00:30:25,959
.."You've ruined my fucking career.
518
00:30:26,959 --> 00:30:28,959
"You've destroyed our business."
519
00:30:30,959 --> 00:30:34,959
Mr Rudkin, please don't feel obliged
520
00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:37,160
WEAKLY: I said I'd divorce her.
521
00:30:42,959 --> 00:30:45,959
Now, they punished my wife...
522
00:30:45,959 --> 00:30:48,959
who never stole a penny piece...
523
00:30:48,959 --> 00:30:49,959
just because I got inside Fujitsu
524
00:30:49,959 --> 00:30:52,319
and saw something
525
00:30:58,959 --> 00:31:03,640
LEE: I think
526
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,959
I think it was called
527
00:31:07,959 --> 00:31:09,959
I can't be sure.
528
00:31:09,959 --> 00:31:11,959
But it was real.
529
00:31:11,959 --> 00:31:14,959
It was real. Other people had it.
530
00:31:14,959 --> 00:31:17,959
Yeah, I tried...
531
00:31:17,959 --> 00:31:22,959
and I just kept
532
00:31:22,959 --> 00:31:25,959
And the more I tried, the more I...
533
00:31:28,959 --> 00:31:30,959
I can't explain it.
534
00:31:32,959 --> 00:31:35,959
Well, it was like...
535
00:31:35,959 --> 00:31:37,959
I was on the edge of...
536
00:31:37,959 --> 00:31:41,000
a great, dark hole.
537
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,959
I was...
538
00:31:48,959 --> 00:31:52,640
The thing is,
539
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,959
and I knew I was telling the truth.
540
00:31:55,959 --> 00:31:59,959
And I just thought,
541
00:31:59,959 --> 00:32:01,959
"That's all I've got to do,
542
00:32:01,959 --> 00:32:04,959
Oh.
543
00:32:06,959 --> 00:32:08,959
Sorry.
544
00:32:08,959 --> 00:32:11,319
I don't wanna upset you,
545
00:32:11,319 --> 00:32:14,959
No...
546
00:32:14,959 --> 00:32:16,959
No, it's just,
547
00:32:16,959 --> 00:32:19,959
the less I... know
548
00:32:25,959 --> 00:32:26,959
BOB SNIFFS
549
00:32:26,959 --> 00:32:30,959
Susan.
550
00:32:30,959 --> 00:32:33,959
We need to speak now.
551
00:32:33,959 --> 00:32:36,959
Always good to see an old friend,
552
00:32:36,959 --> 00:32:38,800
Not today, you don't.
553
00:32:40,959 --> 00:32:41,959
Lee Castleton.
554
00:32:41,959 --> 00:32:43,959
You know, the one you hounded
555
00:32:43,959 --> 00:32:46,959
all the way to the Royal Courts
556
00:32:46,959 --> 00:32:49,319
That was my predecessor.
557
00:32:49,319 --> 00:32:51,800
You have humiliated him,
558
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,959
you have bankrupted him,
559
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,959
Yes. I don't know why we did that.
560
00:32:57,959 --> 00:33:00,319
Well, let me suggest two reasons.
561
00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:02,000
Or, two, you want to rub his nose
562
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,800
use him
563
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,959
I wasn't even here then.
564
00:33:06,959 --> 00:33:09,959
Oh, please.
565
00:33:09,959 --> 00:33:11,959
Are we ever to see the PIN pad
566
00:33:11,959 --> 00:33:15,959
that Mrs Kaur alleges was
567
00:33:15,959 --> 00:33:17,319
Your Honour, I can now confirm
568
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:21,800
that Post Office Limited is unable
569
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,959
Because...? I'm told
570
00:33:25,959 --> 00:33:28,959
and has been reprogrammed.
571
00:33:28,959 --> 00:33:30,959
So it WAS faulty?
572
00:33:30,959 --> 00:33:35,959
In those circumstances, Your Honour,
573
00:33:35,959 --> 00:33:39,959
This matter has dragged on
574
00:33:39,959 --> 00:33:42,959
I direct that a not-guilty verdict
575
00:33:42,959 --> 00:33:45,959
on all 36 counts on the indictment.
576
00:33:45,959 --> 00:33:49,479
Mrs Kaur, you're free to leave.
577
00:33:49,479 --> 00:33:51,959
CLERK: Court rise.
578
00:33:58,959 --> 00:34:00,959
WHISPERING: Congratulations.
579
00:34:02,959 --> 00:34:05,959
Hey. See?
580
00:34:05,959 --> 00:34:07,959
You were right. It was faulty.
581
00:34:07,959 --> 00:34:11,959
Sam, three years of our lives,
582
00:34:11,959 --> 00:34:14,959
Because they won't ever put another
583
00:34:14,959 --> 00:34:16,959
to say I'm innocent?
584
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,959
Come on.
585
00:34:23,959 --> 00:34:25,638
ARBUTHNOT: We're making progress.
586
00:34:25,638 --> 00:34:28,959
Now the investigation
587
00:34:28,959 --> 00:34:30,959
I just thought, enough go-betweens.
588
00:34:30,959 --> 00:34:32,959
What a good idea
589
00:34:32,959 --> 00:34:35,959
I do hope it's been useful
590
00:34:35,959 --> 00:34:38,959
Terrific idea. Thank you, James.
591
00:34:38,959 --> 00:34:40,959
And, Alan, I do hope
592
00:34:40,959 --> 00:34:42,959
a sure understanding
593
00:34:42,959 --> 00:34:46,959
is as fully committed as you are
594
00:34:46,959 --> 00:34:48,959
Thank you.
595
00:34:50,959 --> 00:34:53,959
And, erm....
596
00:34:53,959 --> 00:34:55,959
Uh, no, I...
597
00:34:55,959 --> 00:34:57,000
Er...
598
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,959
Why are you only looking
599
00:35:01,959 --> 00:35:05,959
Well, they are the 12 cases put
600
00:35:05,959 --> 00:35:08,959
All the cases where we are alert
601
00:35:08,959 --> 00:35:11,959
to the possibility
602
00:35:11,959 --> 00:35:13,959
There are a lot more, though, Paula.
603
00:35:13,959 --> 00:35:17,959
Victims who were never charged
604
00:35:17,959 --> 00:35:21,959
But perhaps your people
605
00:35:21,959 --> 00:35:24,959
About all the destitution -
606
00:35:24,959 --> 00:35:27,959
losing their house, their health.
607
00:35:27,959 --> 00:35:30,159
Surely you'd like to hear
608
00:35:34,959 --> 00:35:36,959
SCOFFS
609
00:35:36,959 --> 00:35:38,959
Is that your throwaway exit line?
610
00:35:38,959 --> 00:35:40,959
ALAN CHUCKLES
611
00:35:40,959 --> 00:35:43,959
I was just thinking, you know,
612
00:35:43,959 --> 00:35:45,159
you wouldn't want that
613
00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:46,959
So...
614
00:35:46,959 --> 00:35:49,959
Well, shall I suggest a few names?
615
00:35:51,959 --> 00:35:53,959
STUTTERS
616
00:35:53,959 --> 00:35:54,959
Yes, erm...
617
00:35:55,959 --> 00:35:57,959
Good idea.
618
00:35:57,959 --> 00:35:59,159
These are what I have here.
619
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:06,800
PHONE RINGS
620
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,959
Bob, good to hear from you.
621
00:36:10,959 --> 00:36:12,959
The day you went to Fujitsu...
622
00:36:12,959 --> 00:36:15,320
are you sure it was
623
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,959
Uh, 2008, yeah.
624
00:36:17,959 --> 00:36:19,959
Never forget that -
625
00:36:19,959 --> 00:36:24,959
Michael, you're not down
626
00:36:24,959 --> 00:36:27,959
Post Office are denying
627
00:36:27,959 --> 00:36:30,959
Course they are.
628
00:36:34,479 --> 00:36:36,959
Michael,
629
00:36:37,959 --> 00:36:40,959
Bob, it was four years ago.
630
00:36:40,959 --> 00:36:43,959
'I don't work for the Post Office
631
00:36:59,959 --> 00:37:02,959
Look at your new best friend
632
00:37:04,959 --> 00:37:06,959
PAULA, ON TV: 'It's lovely
633
00:37:06,959 --> 00:37:09,959
INTERVIEWER: 'Paula, how often do
634
00:37:09,959 --> 00:37:11,959
'Probably once a month if I can.'
635
00:37:11,959 --> 00:37:12,959
Oh, please!
636
00:37:12,959 --> 00:37:14,959
'And what reaction do you get?
637
00:37:14,959 --> 00:37:16,959
'Do they get intimidated?
638
00:37:16,959 --> 00:37:18,959
'This is the Post Office.
639
00:37:18,959 --> 00:37:20,959
'I get treated the same
640
00:37:20,959 --> 00:37:22,639
'and they tell me how it is.'
641
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:25,959
'And what's it like being the
642
00:37:25,959 --> 00:37:28,959
'Well, I think you can tell
643
00:37:28,959 --> 00:37:30,959
'that it's... it's great.
644
00:37:30,959 --> 00:37:33,320
'Retail is detail...'
645
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,959
Shut up, you silly cow.
646
00:37:35,959 --> 00:37:37,959
Come on.
647
00:37:43,959 --> 00:37:45,959
BOB RUTHERFORD:
648
00:37:45,959 --> 00:37:48,159
that the Post Office
649
00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:49,959
investigation, training,
650
00:37:49,959 --> 00:37:52,320
and I found clear evidence
651
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,479
Two?
652
00:37:53,479 --> 00:37:57,959
We gave you 47 cases. 47!
653
00:37:57,959 --> 00:38:01,320
And this draft report
654
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,959
Where's Michael Rudkin,
655
00:38:02,959 --> 00:38:04,959
who can prove they're lying
656
00:38:04,959 --> 00:38:06,959
He can't prove it, actually.
657
00:38:06,959 --> 00:38:08,959
Well, Members of Parliament
658
00:38:08,959 --> 00:38:10,959
would certainly like to see
659
00:38:10,959 --> 00:38:14,639
Look, the point
660
00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:17,959
The point is total systemic failure,
661
00:38:17,959 --> 00:38:20,959
Well, we haven't found
662
00:38:20,959 --> 00:38:23,959
Well, what would you call
663
00:38:23,959 --> 00:38:26,959
and shortfalls doubling
664
00:38:26,959 --> 00:38:29,959
and overnight so-called corrections?
665
00:38:29,959 --> 00:38:31,959
Well, there are 68,000 users,
666
00:38:31,959 --> 00:38:34,000
processing six million transactions
667
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,959
Well, this is just the gospel
668
00:38:36,959 --> 00:38:39,800
Alan. For it to be systemic,
669
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,959
that the whole network was affected.
670
00:38:42,959 --> 00:38:45,959
What about the way they abuse
671
00:38:45,959 --> 00:38:46,959
without investigating properly?
672
00:38:46,959 --> 00:38:51,959
And then... And then terminate them
673
00:38:51,959 --> 00:38:53,959
and walk away
674
00:38:53,959 --> 00:38:55,959
Is that not a systemic failure?
675
00:38:55,959 --> 00:38:56,959
We all agreed from the beginning
676
00:38:56,959 --> 00:38:59,639
that the report should be accurate
677
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:01,959
The Post Office has left
678
00:39:01,959 --> 00:39:04,959
ever since the day
679
00:39:04,959 --> 00:39:06,959
and we're just sitting around
680
00:39:06,959 --> 00:39:09,959
while they're still ruining lives...
681
00:39:09,959 --> 00:39:10,959
systemically.
682
00:39:12,959 --> 00:39:15,959
ALAN SIGHS
683
00:39:15,959 --> 00:39:17,959
I must've been mad.
684
00:39:17,959 --> 00:39:20,959
Welshmen with bees in their bonnets.
685
00:39:20,959 --> 00:39:23,959
I was born in Liverpool.
686
00:39:23,959 --> 00:39:26,959
He's an accountant, Alan.
687
00:39:26,959 --> 00:39:29,959
Cautious like you?
688
00:39:29,959 --> 00:39:31,959
Wasn't me in there
689
00:39:33,159 --> 00:39:34,959
I've never seen you angry before.
690
00:39:34,959 --> 00:39:37,159
All that grandstanding,
691
00:39:37,159 --> 00:39:38,959
I learnt that from you, Kay.
692
00:39:38,959 --> 00:39:42,959
Ah, I don't get angry,
693
00:39:43,959 --> 00:39:45,959
Second Sight are going to have to
694
00:39:45,959 --> 00:39:47,959
come up with something better
695
00:39:55,959 --> 00:39:57,959
PHONE RINGS
696
00:40:01,959 --> 00:40:03,959
MICHAEL: 'Bob, how's it going?'
697
00:40:03,959 --> 00:40:06,159
BOB: Michael. Good. Um... any luck?
698
00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:08,959
It's been a long time.
699
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:11,959
Yes, OK.
700
00:40:11,959 --> 00:40:12,959
'I understand.'
701
00:40:12,959 --> 00:40:15,959
But, uh... see attached.
702
00:40:29,959 --> 00:40:33,959
Oh, my fucking good God.
703
00:40:35,959 --> 00:40:37,959
Michael, thank you.
704
00:40:37,959 --> 00:40:39,959
'Thank you so much.'
705
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,959
So, Bob, I can confirm
706
00:40:48,959 --> 00:40:50,959
the basement of Fujitsu's building
707
00:40:50,959 --> 00:40:53,959
did contain
708
00:40:53,959 --> 00:40:57,959
Note, a TEST environment.
709
00:40:57,959 --> 00:41:00,959
And that's what we believe
710
00:41:00,959 --> 00:41:03,159
He got the wrong end of the stick.
711
00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:06,959
The test environment
712
00:41:06,959 --> 00:41:10,959
to the live Horizon system,
713
00:41:10,959 --> 00:41:12,959
for the transactions
714
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,959
Got it. Thank you.
715
00:41:18,959 --> 00:41:21,959
That's cleared that up.
716
00:41:24,959 --> 00:41:26,800
I'll see you out.
717
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,959
Thank you for joining me
718
00:41:29,959 --> 00:41:33,959
I'm sorry for the short notice
719
00:41:33,959 --> 00:41:35,959
The Horizon review interim report
720
00:41:35,959 --> 00:41:38,959
will be presented to MPs
721
00:41:38,959 --> 00:41:42,959
The report has found
722
00:41:42,959 --> 00:41:45,959
with the Horizon computer system,
723
00:41:45,959 --> 00:41:50,959
that the report from
724
00:41:50,959 --> 00:41:52,959
is not as factual as expected...
725
00:41:54,959 --> 00:41:56,959
..and could lead to loose language.
726
00:42:04,959 --> 00:42:07,959
ALAN: What are you?
727
00:42:07,959 --> 00:42:12,959
This report of yours turns out
728
00:42:12,959 --> 00:42:16,000
CHUCKLING: Faint praise. I like it.
729
00:42:16,959 --> 00:42:20,159
Oh, I just hope
730
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:22,959
What got Michael Rudkin
731
00:42:22,959 --> 00:42:25,959
Hm.
732
00:42:25,959 --> 00:42:28,959
copied to seven
733
00:42:28,959 --> 00:42:30,159
Hold on.
734
00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:33,479
So, first, they say he wasn't there,
735
00:42:33,479 --> 00:42:34,959
then they say he was there.
736
00:42:34,959 --> 00:42:37,959
But, what, his glasses were broken?
737
00:42:37,959 --> 00:42:39,959
I wonder if they even know
738
00:42:39,959 --> 00:42:42,959
Welcome on board, Bob.
739
00:42:42,959 --> 00:42:47,959
Yeah, they still say that there's
740
00:42:47,959 --> 00:42:50,959
I'm sorry, but I don't think
741
00:42:50,959 --> 00:42:53,639
that they're wrong and that
742
00:42:53,639 --> 00:42:55,959
But, Alan, there are things in...
743
00:42:55,959 --> 00:42:58,959
documents that I found
744
00:42:58,959 --> 00:43:01,959
Beyond belief.
745
00:43:02,959 --> 00:43:05,959
Someone else I need to tell first.
746
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,000
Wow! Good morning.
747
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,159
BOY: There he is!
748
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:14,479
Let's say good morning.
749
00:43:14,479 --> 00:43:16,959
Bob, we're baby-sitting
750
00:43:16,959 --> 00:43:18,959
Isn't he gorgeous?
751
00:43:18,959 --> 00:43:21,800
I was hoping you'd be sitting
752
00:43:22,959 --> 00:43:24,959
Yeah, I can do that,
753
00:43:24,959 --> 00:43:26,959
Oh, me and Joshua
754
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,959
Your investigator, Ryan Fleming.
755
00:43:33,959 --> 00:43:35,159
The toad?
756
00:43:35,159 --> 00:43:37,959
Did you ever see
757
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,959
No.
758
00:43:42,959 --> 00:43:45,000
The 17th of May, 2006,
759
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,959
he recorded that he had analysed
760
00:43:48,959 --> 00:43:52,959
and was unable to find
761
00:43:52,959 --> 00:43:56,959
I pleaded guilty
762
00:43:56,959 --> 00:44:01,959
Yes. No evidence means they had
763
00:44:01,959 --> 00:44:04,959
and therefore no right
764
00:44:04,959 --> 00:44:06,959
to false accounting.
765
00:44:07,959 --> 00:44:12,959
Jo, no evidence means they had no
766
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:27,959
Everything I've gone through.
767
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:32,320
Everything I've lost.
768
00:44:34,959 --> 00:44:35,959
FORCEFULLY: Ten... years...
769
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:39,959
..of heartache...
770
00:44:39,959 --> 00:44:41,959
and sleepless nights...
771
00:44:41,959 --> 00:44:43,959
and always skint.
772
00:44:46,959 --> 00:44:50,959
Er, they destroyed our whole life
773
00:44:53,959 --> 00:44:56,959
What kind of people are they?
774
00:44:59,159 --> 00:45:01,959
NEWS REPORT:
775
00:45:01,959 --> 00:45:03,959
'presented to MPs
776
00:45:03,959 --> 00:45:07,959
'was expected to include criticism
777
00:45:07,959 --> 00:45:09,959
'and of the senior management
778
00:45:09,959 --> 00:45:14,000
'But while the report does raise
779
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,959
'and poor training,
780
00:45:16,959 --> 00:45:19,959
'the investigation clearly shows
781
00:45:19,959 --> 00:45:21,959
'is operating as it should.
782
00:45:21,959 --> 00:45:22,959
'MPs praised the Post Office
783
00:45:22,959 --> 00:45:26,320
'for the way they've dealt
784
00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:36,959
PHONE RINGS
785
00:45:40,959 --> 00:45:42,479
Alan Bates.
786
00:45:43,959 --> 00:45:45,959
Alan, it's Paula Vennells.
787
00:45:49,479 --> 00:45:51,479
Paula.
788
00:45:52,959 --> 00:45:54,000
UNDER BREATH: Joking...
789
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,959
So, I was thinking...
790
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:00,959
..where do we go from here?
791
00:46:02,959 --> 00:46:04,959
Well, um...
792
00:46:04,959 --> 00:46:07,959
I've been thinking about that, too.
793
00:46:08,959 --> 00:46:12,320
Well, great. Should the two of us
794
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,959
If you want something done properly,
795
00:46:17,959 --> 00:46:18,959
Exactly.
796
00:46:20,959 --> 00:46:22,959
Well...
797
00:46:22,959 --> 00:46:24,959
How can I help?
798
00:46:28,959 --> 00:46:31,959
# God knows what is hiding
799
00:46:31,959 --> 00:46:35,159
# In those weak and drunken hearts
800
00:46:35,159 --> 00:46:38,959
# Guess he kissed the girls
801
00:46:38,959 --> 00:46:42,959
# Those hard-faced queens
802
00:46:42,959 --> 00:46:48,959
# People help the people
803
00:46:48,959 --> 00:46:51,959
# And if you're homesick
804
00:46:51,959 --> 00:46:54,959
# Give me your hand
47301
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