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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,439 The computer system Post Office spent an arm and a leg on is faulty. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,359 Oh, my God, it's just doubled right in front of my eyes. 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,319 I haven't got that money. 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,279 The Horizon system was working properly. 5 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,719 The losses must have been caused by Mr Castleton's own error. 6 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,439 How many other subpostmasters have you found? 7 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,559 Six. Who will go on the record? 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,039 I'm thinking set up a meeting, send out invitations, 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:24,199 see if anyone turns up. 10 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,799 The Post Office told us you're the only one. 11 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,039 That was a lie. 12 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,199 From this moment forwards, 13 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,200 none of us will be the only one ever again. 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,080 I just think you've made a mistake, Sam. 15 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,039 I know, but they said if I pleaded guilty, I could have the shop back. 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,599 How is that ever gonna work? 17 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,000 You'll be a convicted criminal. 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,439 Look, I'm your husband, and I have to read about this in the newspaper. 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:15,999 Was on my own in the interview. 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,079 I thought I was doing the right thing. 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,199 Jas, please. You're an innocent woman. 22 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,799 You should've pleaded not guilty like we agreed. 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,479 Come on. We're gonna be late. 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,360 They'll have started without us. 25 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,199 It was unbelievable. 26 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,119 The lowest day of my life. 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,799 Uh, hi. 28 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,439 Uh... sorry we're late. 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,199 Um, got a bit lost. Sorry. 30 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,599 Are you... Is this...? 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,119 We're all former subpostmasters. Come in. It's OK. 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,120 Please, uh... find a seat. 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,959 Uh, I'm Jaz Singh. 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,039 I'm Sam, from Walsall. Yeah, Walsall. 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,200 Well, we're all sharing our stories, er... 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,640 I don't know if you want to... Go on. Go on. 37 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,280 I had no problems till they sent us a new Horizon PIN pad. 38 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,199 They just won't have it that there's something wrong with the thing. 39 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,719 They say I'm piggybacking - 40 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,999 going into the till to pay out a pension with one hand, 41 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,519 and paying myself with the other. 42 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,559 I'm guessing they also said you were the only ones having these problems. 43 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,999 And I'm guessing they said the same 44 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,599 to everyone else in this room, right? 45 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,759 I'm such a fool, I believed them. 46 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,439 I believed them when they said, 47 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,519 "Just confess you took that £5,000, Sam, 48 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,319 "and you'll be back in your shop tomorrow." 49 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:58,959 You shouldn't have done that. 50 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,479 It was the new PIN pad. It wasn't your fault. 51 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,559 It was... It wasn't her fault. 52 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,559 Actually, I pleaded guilty too. 53 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,800 So did I. 54 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,919 You did? I can't believe it. 55 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:16,079 I-I-I thought we were on our own, you know. 56 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,959 Not any more. 57 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,999 I'm a mother. I don't want to go to prison. 58 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,279 Look. We're changing your plea, OK? 59 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,799 Not guilty. 60 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,359 And this time, I'm coming to court with you. 61 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,319 Hey. 62 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,240 Now, if you're thinking of going to court, just be careful. 63 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,199 Well, there are people here who've done time. 64 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,919 We've all lost our businesses and our savings. 65 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:49,000 The question is, what are we going to do about it? 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,439 MPs, neither use nor ornament. 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,879 Stop it. 68 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,200 Be nice. At least he's taken the trouble to turn up. 69 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,479 Um... Mrs Hamilton? That's me. 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,959 James Arbuthnot. 71 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,359 Thank you for coming. 72 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,159 My pleasure. Do come in. 73 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:11,920 Jo's mum. Hello. 74 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,159 So, one way or another, 75 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,999 we're all fighting back every way we can. 76 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,519 We're even thinking about suing the Post Office. 77 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,799 I'd like to see you try, with no money. 78 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,759 Well, good job talking to your MP costs absolutely nothing. 79 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,559 Is this homemade? It looks delicious. 80 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,719 Thank you, I will. 81 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,199 We thought maybe you could talk to the government or something. 82 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,119 Yes, indeed. 83 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,839 There are two other cases in my constituency alone. 84 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:41,559 Wow. Really? 85 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:42,719 It's very odd, isn't it? 86 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,319 I mean, the Post Office is a national institution. 87 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,359 You think you could trust them to listen to their own people. 88 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,719 Personally, Mr Arbuthnot... James, please. 89 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,960 ..I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. 90 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,239 I'm going to ask around the House, 91 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,279 see how many members are hearing similar stories, 92 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:07,319 make an approach to Post Office management at the highest level. 93 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,800 I think I feel a campaign coming on. 94 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,400 Oh, that's lovely. 95 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:23,079 And so my client, Mrs Kaur, 96 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,479 seeks permission to change her plea to not guilty. 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,839 This is because she had no solicitor with her 98 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:31,079 during her interview under caution, 99 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,559 and because there is also a technical issue 100 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,479 which you may consider requires expert evidence 101 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,479 concerning a PIN pad. 102 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:40,639 I can't see anything here. 103 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,360 Her PIN pad was faulty. Quiet, please. 104 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,959 Very well, Mrs Kaur, I vacate your plea. 105 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,440 How do you now plead? 106 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:55,280 Not guilty. 107 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,119 Is that him? The so-called trade unionist. 108 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,719 He's got a bloody nerve. 109 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,119 Federation man. 110 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,640 A federation man who calls out of nowhere. 111 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,720 How do we know we can trust him? 112 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,480 We don't. 113 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,159 Michael. Hi, Alan. 114 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,319 Found us, then? Yeah. 115 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:34,879 Never even heard of Fenny Compton. 116 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,719 All right, everyone, shall we make a start? 117 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,999 Shall we make a start? Thanks. 118 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,399 Right. 119 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,119 So, welcome to the second meeting 120 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,159 of the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance. 121 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,759 Now, before we get on to our campaign update, 122 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,880 we have a guest who'd like permission to speak. 123 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,759 This is Michael Rudkin, friends, 124 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,439 an executive officer of the National Federation For Subpostmasters. 125 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:15,359 Not any more. 126 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,759 The federation sent me back my membership fee, 127 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,119 said they wouldn't represent me. 128 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,319 They told me to get a good criminal lawyer. 129 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,159 And that was the last I heard of them. 130 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,199 My so-called union has been in bed with the Post Office for years. 131 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,839 I can either leave by the way I came in 132 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,599 or I can tell you my story. 133 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,400 Up to you, pal. 134 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,039 You think you're the little guys, 135 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,280 facing up to one powerful enemy? You're wrong. 136 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,799 Post Office don't make the computers, do they? 137 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,359 No, they don't... design the kit. 138 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,520 They don't write the software, they don't run the network. 139 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,519 That's Fujitsu. 140 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,840 Multinational corporation. Headquarters in Bracknell. 141 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,559 I've been there. I've seen what they can do. 142 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,719 Two years ago, I got myself an invitation to Fujitsu 143 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,239 to sort out the issue with the foreign exchange stock control 144 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:09,879 that we were all having problems with. 145 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,920 Er, Michael Rudkin, to see George Delph. 146 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,559 Thanks, mate. 147 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,200 '19th of August 2008.' 148 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,639 Cheers. Thanks, mate. Mr Rudkin. 149 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,079 George Delph, hi. 150 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,399 Hi. Good to meet you. And you. 151 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,999 Welcome to Fujitsu. Cheers. 152 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,840 If you'd like to follow me. 153 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,519 Horizon is the largest IT system in Europe. 154 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,640 We're very proud of that. Outside the military, that is. 155 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,199 Cost a billion pounds. 156 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,319 We've rolled out 40,000 terminals to your members. 157 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,960 So this accounts for all the James Bond stuff, does it? 158 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,000 'All I'm expecting is he'll give me a bit of training I can pass on.' 159 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,599 All right. State-of-the-art everything. 160 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,999 That must be why a lot of my members have been complaining 161 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,559 about your rubbish foreign exchange stock control. 162 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:10,079 We can help. 163 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,879 A lot of my members been losing money. 164 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,280 Oh, the bottom line! Me included. 165 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,880 Meet your friendly covert operations team. 166 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:25,639 I get in there, and this guy sits me down at a Horizon terminal. 167 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,439 So, easiest way to help is if I just show you 168 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,439 how to adjust your stock control manually. 169 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,159 And I said to him, "Is this live?" 170 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,720 Sure. Look at the clock. 171 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,239 So, if I start by adjusting this from sterling to euros. 172 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,559 'And I said to him...' 173 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:49,279 You're inside some subpostmaster's Horizon, 174 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,439 and he doesn't know. 175 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,280 He said, "yeah". 176 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,840 "Yeah, I am." 177 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,319 How else am I gonna show you how to do this? 178 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,039 'And then, right in front of my eyes, 179 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,439 'he starts changing the subpostmaster's figures.' 180 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:07,479 Excuse me. 181 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,599 I've been telling my members for years 182 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,159 no-one else has access to their branch accounts. 183 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,039 Uh, OK. Well, um... 184 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,319 I'd better put the figures back the way they were, then, 185 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:19,680 or they won't balance tonight. 186 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,159 'Ladies and gentlemen, you know what this means.' 187 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,959 It means they can sneak in behind your back, 188 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,560 change your figures, bugger off and leave with no trace. 189 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,239 It's remote access. 190 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,439 Well, makes sense. 191 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,679 It's how they send updates and bug-fixes. 192 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:51,759 No, no. No, the help line. They said that... 193 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,119 They said that was impossible. 194 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,239 They said the branch accounts were totally secure. 195 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:56,279 That's what they told me. 196 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:57,920 They lied. 197 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,759 But if they're getting into our accounts 198 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,399 and messing about in there... 199 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,239 Then it's a bit rich for them to claim 200 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,719 that we have 100% responsibility when money goes missing. 201 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,360 Exactly. 202 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,320 So, I drive home from Fujitsu. 203 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:18,519 The next morning, I wake up, 204 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,719 and my wife is stood at the foot of our bed... 205 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,840 and there's an auditor beside her. 206 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:35,560 "Your Post Office is now £44,000 in deficit," says he. 207 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,759 Coincidence? 208 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,479 Revenge. 209 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,079 My wife ran the Post Office when I was away on federation business. 210 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,720 So, although I was the subpostmaster... 211 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,600 ..my poor wife... 212 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,279 ..is now a convicted criminal. 213 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,120 You're welcome. 214 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,920 Wait. 215 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,320 Mr Rudkin, thank you. 216 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,079 Thank you. 217 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,440 Yeah, it won't do any good. 218 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,160 So they punished him. 219 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,839 They punished him for standing up to 'em. 220 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,439 It's what they did to me. 221 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,279 They knew I had to fight them, 222 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,759 but they knew I didn't stand a chance. 223 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,719 They just did it to teach me a lesson, 224 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,159 to teach everyone in this room a lesson. 225 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,840 That's what we're up against. THAT is what we're up against. 226 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,039 The Post Office are still investigating, 227 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,959 so it's going to take a bit longer than we thought 228 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,479 as it's now 36 charges. 229 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,599 How many? 36 charges. 230 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,039 No, no, no, that's totally wrong. 231 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,919 I've got the indictment right here, Jas. 232 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,959 It's definitely now 36 charges. 233 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,759 But... it was 19. 234 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,519 Where have all these new ones come from? 235 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,239 Sam? I don't know, I don't remember. 236 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,639 And what about this - her shortfall? 237 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,519 It's now 11,000. That's more than doubled. 238 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,439 You're selling everyone stamps with a picture of the Queen on them. 239 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,520 We love the Queen, don't we? 240 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,759 Is she all right? Yeah, yeah. Just... 241 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,120 All these delays, they're doing both our heads in. 242 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:57,399 Jas, I think we should get a medical report. 243 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,040 When cases go on and on like this, it can be hard for the defendant. 244 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,000 She's fine. 245 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,200 I'll just go and see if they're ready for us. 246 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,080 Everyone's eyes are on me. 247 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,920 It's OK. 248 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,720 Sam, can you get the phone? 249 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:49,319 Hello? 250 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,679 Oh, it's Jo. 251 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,719 Gosh, you had me worried there. I'm just checking in on you. 252 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,840 'Are you OK?' 253 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,119 I'm up and down. 254 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:02,720 Are you getting out at all? 255 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,519 Oh, I can't go out. 256 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,959 Not to the gurdwara, not even to the supermarket. 257 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,999 I see people I know, and sometimes, they look surprised to see me, 258 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,320 and I wonder... 259 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,959 ..do they think I've gone to prison already? 260 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,759 Oh, Sam... if I just had the money for a stupid train ticket. 261 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,879 I wouldn't be much fun for you, Jo. 262 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,199 Oh, God! 263 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,479 Sam, what is it? 264 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,720 It's OK, it's OK. I'm all right, Jo. 265 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,320 It's just the postman. 266 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,639 Every time the door goes... 267 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,039 I think it's them, come to get me. 268 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,199 Oh. 269 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,680 'Oh, you poor thing.' 270 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,119 Yeah, I'd no idea this was happening to other people. 271 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,519 I thought I was the only one. 272 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,519 There were nights I was just sobbing, didn't know what to do, 273 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,519 how to get out of this mess. 274 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,519 It sounds like it was very traumatic for you. 275 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,679 Well, it's not just me that it's traumatic for. 276 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,199 'I just think that the Post Office needs to investigate this. 277 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,839 'There's just got to be something else going on, 278 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,919 'cos it can't be happening to this many people.' 279 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,239 Jo was great. 280 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,639 She's a natural. 281 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,879 Yeah, but who's listening? 282 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,039 How concerned are you about these allegations against the Post Office? 283 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,319 'I'm very concerned about this. 284 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,399 'Cases seem to be cropping up all over the country.' 285 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,759 And who knew a Tory MP could be so nice? 286 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,279 'The Post Office have been, I think, pretty hard-nosed 287 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,199 'in the way they've taken the cases to court.' 288 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,879 Trouble is, nobody watches local news. 289 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,359 'And I think their bosses need to think again 290 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,120 'and be more sympathetic.' 291 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,079 Be ready. 292 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:17,319 'There are a tiny number of ex-subpostmasters 293 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,639 'who appear to be making distinct allegations 294 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,559 'with respect to the operation of the Horizon system.' 295 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,479 But in two of the cases, 296 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,879 the individuals have in the past pleaded guilty to false accounting. 297 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,039 I have written back to the Member of Parliament, 298 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,239 making clear that Post Office Limited 299 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,559 does not accept any of the allegations 300 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,239 that are being made 301 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,279 and will robustly defend its position 302 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,000 if any civil action is mounted against it. 303 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,199 Freedom of information. 304 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,879 Just when you think you've cracked it, 305 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,559 they come up with a new trick to keep us in the dark. 306 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:53,599 Listen to this. 307 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,799 You're only allowed a question, 308 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,479 to ask a question, 309 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,679 that will take one person less than 18 hours to research. 310 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,840 I mean, what? 311 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,639 What do you think? 312 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,160 Hey. 313 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:13,880 Trying to have a life here, Alan. 314 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,920 I... 315 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:32,160 I just want to be able to... take you on holiday again, Suzanne. 316 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,639 A proper holiday abroad. 317 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,840 Not just... camping. 318 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:45,720 And still half of Snowdonia waiting to be climbed. 319 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:53,359 A, the Post Office has taken all our money. 320 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,400 B, my knees are way too old for Snowdon now. 321 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,039 And, C, you can't possibly go on holiday. 322 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,800 You're too busy campaigning, morning, noon and night. 323 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,040 This is all taking too long. 324 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,559 'My next guest is famous for pranking the nation 325 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,680 'with hidden camera comedy shows like Trigger Happy...' 326 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,959 Hiya. You OK? Sorry I'm late. 327 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,160 Got held up, so... 328 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,839 It's OK. Sam. 329 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,919 Sammy, what...? What have you...? 330 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,119 Sam! 331 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:51,719 It's OK. 332 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,199 It's OK. Sam, what have you done? 333 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,919 Why have you done this? Huh? It's not fair. 334 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,519 Sam, look at me. What...? 335 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,119 I had to do something. 336 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:01,479 '999.' I had to do something. 337 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,239 I need an ambulance, please. 338 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,199 45 Falfield Road, Walsall. 339 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,159 It's not fair. WS2 9WB. 340 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,680 B for Bravo. It's not fair. 341 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,759 I don't want to do it. They're here to help you. 342 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,519 I tried everything. Ssh. 343 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,799 I tried everything, Jas, I tried everything. I know. 344 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,799 I know, it's OK, I'm here. 345 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,320 Hey, can you stop staring at us? Just mind your own business! 346 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,560 Sam, come on. It's OK, Sam. 347 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,159 What's the next one? Candy. 348 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,319 Candy, OK. See if you can find it. 349 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,879 He's doing well. Yeah, he'll be doing the spelling bee soon. 350 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,039 Eh? 351 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,559 Hello. Mr Singh? 352 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,159 Yeah, yeah. Can I have a word? 353 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,600 Yeah. Um, two minutes and then burgers. OK? 354 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,519 Hey, how are you doing? 355 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,359 'I want to stress she'll be sedated, she won't feel anything.' 356 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,559 ECT had a lot of bad press at one point, 357 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,039 but we continue to find it very useful in giving relief 358 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,600 to patients as severely depressed as Saman. 359 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,440 And nothing else we've tried has worked, so... 360 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,320 Just don't go home and Google it, Mr Singh. 361 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,280 We'll talk more later. Yeah. 362 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,519 Like you're not gonna Google it. 363 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,640 'I know. It's mad.' 364 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,000 But you know the worst thing, Jo? 365 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,159 If I'd have let her carry on pleading guilty, like she wanted to 366 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,639 in the first place... 367 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,960 all right, yeah, she-she might have gone to prison, but... 368 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,439 ..she'd be out by now. 369 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,319 Oh, Jas. 370 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,520 My boy would have a mother. 371 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,960 And Sam would be free. 372 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,240 Treat. 373 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,519 The problem is relatively very small. 374 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,039 Very few complaints. 375 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,119 But this is a very serious matter for the Post Office, 376 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,039 whose business rests on our reputation for being trustworthy. 377 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,479 Well, we all represent constituents who tell us 378 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,559 that your helpline is of little value, 379 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,559 that the training you offer is minimal. 380 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,519 Angela is our Head of Network Services. 381 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,920 Thank you. Um... 382 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,839 Well, the helpline and support are there. 383 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,959 Now, whether staff take it up or not, that's another matter. 384 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,519 Mrs Vennells, is the Post Office saying 385 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,359 that Horizon is 100% foolproof? 386 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,679 Because that would make it the first perfect software system 387 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,519 ever implemented by government. 388 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,759 The system is robust. 389 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,399 Gentlemen, we have nothing to hide. 390 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,280 Indeed, we're ready to mount and fund an independent review. 391 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,439 Well, that's marvellous, and I'm sure Mr Bates 392 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,719 and the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance 393 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,280 will be thrilled to get involved with that. 394 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,519 Bet you've missed me, Susan. 395 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,159 How is life in the sleepy old Post Office? Sleepy? 396 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,439 I wish. High finance misses you, kid. 397 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,879 I'm a proud public servant now. 398 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,439 Well, I'd wager it's not half as much fun as your old life. 399 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,599 Chasing down villains and fraudsters with me. 400 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,440 Susan. 401 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,439 Is that what we're doing here? I don't know. 402 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:41,960 That's why I hired you. 403 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,919 Ah. Angela Van Den Bogerd is Head of Network Services. 404 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,160 Bob Rutherford from Second Sight. Angela, nice to meet you. 405 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,119 Here to help. 406 00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,959 We've pulled a dozen files for you to look at, 407 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,239 all the cases the MPs have been pushing. 408 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,879 Anything else you want, though, we can provide. 409 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,439 Accounts, procedures, backgrounds, I'll draw up a list. 410 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,879 And I'd like to visit Fujitsu in Bracknell. 411 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,639 No problem. 412 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,039 Oh, are you not staying? 413 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,520 Knowing you of old, Bob, I imagine you're itching to get on the road. 414 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,000 Thank you, all. 415 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,679 'Alan, you can't go and meet him on your own. 416 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,399 'Because how will you know what to ask this investigator? 417 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,279 'And because she's my neighbour, and she's really nice, 418 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,959 'and she wants to help.' 419 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,159 "Kay Linnell, Past Master and Liveryman." 420 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,919 'Kay Linnell, forensic accountant. 421 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,119 'Alan, bite her hand off!' 422 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:44,480 Alan? 423 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,440 Alan Bates? 424 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,599 Kay Linnell, Past Master and Liveryman 425 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,439 of the Worshipful Company of Arbitrators. 426 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,159 You've been looking me up. 427 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,399 And Board of the Inland Revenue's former Chief Prosecuting 428 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,199 and Investigating Accountant. 429 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,919 Now, that was a fun job. 430 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,440 Shall we? 431 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,079 May I underline that, 432 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,159 although the Post Office has agreed to fund 433 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,279 this independent investigation, 434 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,679 Mr Rutherford's organisation, Second Sight, 435 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,959 will be working for us, the MPs, 436 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,359 and therefore, indirectly, for you, 437 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,559 Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. 438 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:26,919 So... 439 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,479 Alan, Kay, what would you like to know? 440 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,199 Well, I'd like to know 441 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,879 exactly what makes you think you're qualified to do this job. 442 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,719 Well, I'm a forensic accountant of many years' experience. 443 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,119 I don't doubt your paper qualifications, Mr Rutherford. 444 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:44,959 I have them here in front of me. 445 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,159 But I see nothing to persuade me 446 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,119 that Second Sight is remotely capable 447 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:53,359 of producing a truly independent report. 448 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:55,959 One that's ready to bite the hand that feeds you. 449 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,319 Bob Rutherford is a member of the Association 450 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,319 of Certified Fraud Examiners. 451 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,959 He has led hundreds of investigations all over the world 452 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,719 into banking fraud, corruption, rogue traders, subprime mortgages. 453 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,759 Doesn't answer my question. 454 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,079 How can we be sure you will investigate fairly 455 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,519 and independently? 456 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,799 Because the people who suggested me know me of old, 457 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,199 and they want to hire me because they know what I like to do best, 458 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,880 which is to clear innocent people who look guilty. 459 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,079 I still don't see how we can trust him 460 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,319 when he's taking Post Office money. 461 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,439 Well, you can't pay him. Can't pay you either. 462 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,359 I'll help in my spare time. 463 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,439 What I really need is lawyers who'll work for nothing. 464 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,999 One day, you'll find your precious lawyers 465 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,199 and we'll get this scandal into court. 466 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,599 But we'll need evidence which mortals like us haven't a hope 467 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,239 of getting our hands on. 468 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,839 But Bob's outfit, Second Sight... 469 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,320 they'll have access to seven years of raw data. 470 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,319 This Bob... 471 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,279 he can't just look at individual cases, though. 472 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,959 He has to look at Horizon as a whole, as a system. 473 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,719 Am I to take it you're happy to support his investigation? 474 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,760 Well, being as it's the only one we've got... 475 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,079 When I first came to the Post Office, 476 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,999 they were introducing chip and PIN, and it never worked properly. 477 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,719 The base unit, the Horizon computer... 478 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,319 whatever you call it, 479 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,359 the thing that sits under the counter, 480 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,639 I thought of it as like an alien thing. 481 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,319 Sometimes, engineers would come from Fujitsu, 482 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,039 with their clever badges on, 483 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,560 and I never had any idea what they were doing. 484 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,279 This is probably a really stupid question, Bob. 485 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,359 There are no such things as stupid questions, 486 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,040 only stupid answers. 487 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,800 That £36,000 I'm supposed to have lost... 488 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,359 ..where did it go? 489 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,439 I haven't got it. 490 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,840 So who has? 491 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,319 I don't know... 492 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,560 but I'm going to find out. 493 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,679 It's a bed-and-breakfast now. 494 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,439 We're private people, Bob. 495 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,760 This was our family home. 496 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,079 But the Post office gave us no option. 497 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,199 No other way of making a living. 498 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,440 Thank you. 499 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,000 Cheers, love. 500 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,360 My wife has had it so much harder than me. 501 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,800 Susan was in charge while I was away on federation business. 502 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,759 She never told me, so I had no idea she was in trouble. 503 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,679 Even though at least half my work in federation 504 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:17,960 was Horizon-related by then. 505 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:21,920 I said to her... 506 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,640 .."You've ruined my fucking career. 507 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,400 "You've destroyed our business." 508 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,400 Mr Rudkin, please don't feel obliged to divul... I said... 509 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,040 I said I'd divorce her. 510 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,479 Now, they punished my wife... 511 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,279 who never stole a penny piece... 512 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,799 just because I got inside Fujitsu 513 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,080 and saw something that I shouldn't have. 514 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,159 I think what I had was a computer bug. 515 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,519 I think it was called a Callendar Square Bug. 516 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,759 I can't be sure. 517 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,959 But it was real. 518 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,799 It was real. Other people had it. 519 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,759 Yeah, I tried... I tried to tell the court that, 520 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,559 and I just kept sort of saying it wrong. 521 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,400 And the more I tried, the more I... 522 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,320 I can't explain it. 523 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,279 Well, it was like... 524 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,919 I was on the edge of... 525 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,000 a great, dark hole. 526 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,519 I was... I was just falling into it. 527 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,159 The thing is, I knew that they were lying, 528 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,760 and I knew I was telling the truth. 529 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,399 And I just thought, "This is British justice. 530 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,439 "That's all I've got to do, is tell the truth." 531 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,240 Oh. 532 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,799 Sorry. Oh, no, no, no. God, no! 533 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,079 I don't wanna upset you, I was just trying to tell you... 534 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,239 No... 535 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,399 No, it's just, the more of you people I meet, 536 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,800 the less I... know how you're all still standing. 537 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,879 Yeah. 538 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,639 Susan. Am I expecting you today? 539 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,399 We need to speak now. 540 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,919 Always good to see an old friend, but I do have a diary. 541 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,200 Not today, you don't. 542 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,839 Lee Castleton. 543 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,559 You know, the one you hounded 544 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,359 all the way to the Royal Courts of Justice? 545 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,079 That was my predecessor. When you knew he had no money. 546 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,199 You have humiliated him, 547 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,240 you have bankrupted him, and I don't get it. 548 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,439 Yes. I don't know why we did that. 549 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,079 Well, let me suggest two reasons. One, you're stupid. 550 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,999 Or, two, you want to rub his nose in the dirt, 551 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,199 use him to frighten off everyone else. 552 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,479 I wasn't even here then. 553 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,639 Oh, please. What is wrong with you people? 554 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,559 Are we ever to see the PIN pad 555 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,239 that Mrs Kaur alleges was responsible for her shortfalls? 556 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,079 Your Honour, I can now confirm 557 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,199 that Post Office Limited is unable to produce the PIN pad in question. 558 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,879 Because...? I'm told it was sent away for repair 559 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,279 and has been reprogrammed. 560 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,879 So it WAS faulty? 561 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,799 In those circumstances, Your Honour, the prosecution offers no evidence. 562 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,559 This matter has dragged on for three years. 563 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,319 I direct that a not-guilty verdict be entered 564 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,799 on all 36 counts on the indictment. 565 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,119 Mrs Kaur, you're free to leave. 566 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,520 Court rise. 567 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,640 Congratulations. 568 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,279 Hey. See? 569 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,759 You were right. It was faulty. 570 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,759 Sam, three years of our lives, but it's over now, OK? No. 571 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,759 Because they won't ever put another picture in the paper, will they, 572 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,600 to say I'm innocent? 573 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,600 Come on. 574 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,159 We're making progress. 575 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,479 Now the investigation is properly up and running, 576 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,479 I just thought, enough go-betweens. 577 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,639 What a good idea to bring you two together. 578 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,599 I do hope it's been useful for both of you. 579 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,279 Terrific idea. Thank you, James. 580 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,359 And, Alan, I do hope you'll take away from this 581 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,599 a sure understanding that Post Office 582 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,679 is as fully committed as you are to resolving this situation. 583 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,520 Thank you. 584 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,639 And, erm... if there's anything else? 585 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,479 Uh, no, I... Actually... 586 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,999 Er... 587 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,520 Why are you only looking at 12 cases? 588 00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:05,759 Well, they are the 12 cases put forward by Members of Parliament. 589 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,279 All the cases where we are alert 590 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,239 to the possibility of miscarriage of justice. 591 00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,519 There are a lot more, though, Paula. 592 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,439 Victims who were never charged with any criminal offence. 593 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,319 But perhaps your people haven't told you about that. 594 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,879 About all the destitution - people sleeping in their cars, 595 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,479 losing their house, their health. 596 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,040 Surely you'd like to hear from them, too? 597 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,399 Is that your throwaway exit line? 598 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,239 I was just thinking, you know, if you knew the full story, 599 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,039 you wouldn't want that on your conscience. 600 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,639 So... 601 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,720 Well, shall I suggest a few names? 602 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:54,880 Yes, erm... 603 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,719 Good idea. 604 00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:59,040 These are what I have here. 605 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,439 - Bob, good to hear from you. - 'Hi there.' 606 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,919 The day you went to Fujitsu... 607 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,079 are you sure it was the 19th of August? 608 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,279 Uh, 2008, yeah. 609 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,799 Never forget that - last day of our old life. 610 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,599 Michael, you're not down as a visitor on their security logs. 611 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,559 Post Office are denying that your visit ever happened. 612 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,400 Course they are. 'Can you prove it?' 613 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,480 Michael, can you prove you were there? 614 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,599 Bob, it was four years ago. 615 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,520 'I don't work for the Post Office any more.' 616 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,440 Look at your new best friend pretending she can do a proper job. 617 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,679 'It's lovely to be here. Thank you.' 618 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,479 'Paula, how often do you get to visit a place like this?' 619 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,319 'Probably once a month if I can.' 620 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,479 Oh, please! 621 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,799 'And what reaction do you get? I mean, you're the big boss. 622 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,559 'Do they get intimidated? 'No. 623 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,679 'This is the Post Office. 624 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,839 'I get treated the same as everybody else, 625 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,159 'and they tell me how it is.' 626 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,679 'And what's it like being the chief executive of a major company?' 627 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,239 'Well, I think you can tell by the smile on my face 628 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:30,439 'that it's... it's great. 629 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,079 'Retail is detail...' Shut up. 630 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,359 Shut up, you silly cow. 631 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,880 Come on. Come and get your breakfast. 632 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,599 I shall present evidence to show 633 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,039 that the Post Office has made failures in support, 634 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,719 investigation, training, 635 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,079 and I found clear evidence of two bugs. 636 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,119 Two? 637 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,719 We gave you 47 cases. 47! 638 00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:01,079 And this draft report of yours only mentions three. 639 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,839 Where's Michael Rudkin, 640 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,919 who can prove they're lying about remote access? 641 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,759 He can't prove it, actually. 642 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,279 Well, Members of Parliament 643 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,759 would certainly like to see more individual cases. Oh! 644 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,159 Look, the point is not individual cases. 645 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,959 The point is total systemic failure, which you don't mention. 646 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,359 Well, we haven't found hard evidence of that, either. 647 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,719 Well, what would you call the endless PIN pad anomalies 648 00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,919 and shortfalls doubling before people's eyes 649 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,599 and overnight so-called corrections? 650 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,519 Well, there are 68,000 users, 651 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,999 processing six million transactions a day. 652 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,439 Well, this is just the gospel according to the Post Office. 653 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,199 Alan. For it to be systemic, that would have to mean 654 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,559 that the whole network was affected. And it just isn't. 655 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,439 What about the way they abuse their power and prosecute people 656 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:46,879 without investigating properly? 657 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,759 And then... And then terminate them on three months' notice 658 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,439 and walk away with their life savings? 659 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,479 Is that not a systemic failure? 660 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,839 We all agreed from the beginning 661 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,159 that the report should be accurate and evidence-based. 662 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,559 The Post Office has left a trail of destruction 663 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,279 ever since the day that Horizon was introduced, 664 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,599 and we're just sitting around chatting about it 665 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,479 while they're still ruining lives... 666 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,680 systemically. 667 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,679 I agreed to this. 668 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,679 I must've been mad. 669 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,399 Welshmen with bees in their bonnets. 670 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,239 I was born in Liverpool. 671 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:26,319 He's an accountant, Alan. He's naturally cautious. 672 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,519 Cautious like you? I can be cautious. 673 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,840 Wasn't me in there banging the table. 674 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,919 I've never seen you angry before. 675 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,039 All that grandstanding, you mean? 676 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:38,799 I learnt that from you, Kay. 677 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,640 Ah, I don't get angry, I just get frustrated. 678 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,639 Second Sight are going to have to 679 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,800 come up with something better than this. 680 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:03,399 'Bob, how's it going?' 681 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,039 Michael. Good. Um... any luck? 682 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,760 It's been a long time. A lot of water under the bridge. 683 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,239 Yes, OK. 684 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:12,719 'I understand.' 685 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:15,240 But, uh... see attached. 686 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,400 Oh, my fucking good God. 687 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,399 Michael, thank you. 688 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,680 'Thank you so much.' 689 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,239 So, Bob, I can confirm that in August 2008, 690 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:50,719 the basement of Fujitsu's building in Bracknell 691 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,599 did contain a Horizon test environment. 692 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,839 Note, a TEST environment. 693 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,679 And that's what we believe your subpostmaster Mr Rudkin saw. 694 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,039 He got the wrong end of the stick. 695 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,439 The test environment wasn't physically connected 696 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,359 to the live Horizon system, so... it wasn't possible 697 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,400 for the transactions he thought he saw to be real. 698 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,400 Got it. Thank you. 699 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,640 That's cleared that up. Good. 700 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,199 I'll see you out. 701 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,239 Thank you for joining me by conference call. 702 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:33,359 I'm sorry for the short notice in keeping the board updated. 703 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,439 The Horizon review interim report 704 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,919 will be presented to MPs in one week's time. 705 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,279 The report has found no systemic issues 706 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,439 with the Horizon computer system, but I am concerned 707 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,519 that the report from the independent forensic accountant 708 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,720 is not as factual as expected... 709 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,360 ..and could lead to loose language. 710 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,679 What are you? Poacher-turned-gamekeeper? 711 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,639 This report of yours turns out to be not half-bad, considering. 712 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,000 Faint praise. I like it. 713 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,039 Oh, I just hope it makes a difference. 714 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,839 What got Michael Rudkin into the final version? 715 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,639 Hm. An email inviting him to Bracknell, 716 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,919 copied to seven named Post office executives. 717 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,039 Hold on. 718 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,119 So, first, they say he wasn't there, 719 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,359 then they say he was there. 720 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,759 But, what, his glasses were broken? 721 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,959 I wonder if they even know they're talking bollocks. 722 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,279 Welcome on board, Bob. 723 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,719 Yeah, they still say that there's no remote access into your accounts. 724 00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,719 I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm going to be able to prove 725 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:53,159 that they're wrong and that you're right on this one. Ah. 726 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,959 But, Alan, there are things in... 727 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,879 documents that I found in the Post Office files. 728 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,720 Beyond belief. Going to tell me more? 729 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,280 Someone else I need to tell first. 730 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,999 Wow! Good morning. Good morning, Mr Frog. 731 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,039 There he is! There he is. 732 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,119 Let's say good morning. Hello, all. 733 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,759 Bob, we're baby-sitting in the sunshine. 734 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,879 Isn't he gorgeous? 735 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,200 I was hoping you'd be sitting somewhere quiet. 736 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:24,599 Yeah, I can do that, or I can put the kettle on. 737 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,960 Oh, me and Joshua will put the kettle on. 738 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,959 Your investigator, Ryan Fleming. 739 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,039 The toad? 740 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,360 Did you ever see his report about you? 741 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,280 No. 742 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,999 The 17th of May, 2006, 743 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,719 he recorded that he had analysed your Horizon accounts 744 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:52,359 and was unable to find any evidence of theft. 745 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,319 I pleaded guilty to false accounting instead. Mm. 746 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,719 Yes. No evidence means they had no right to charge you with theft, 747 00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:04,759 and therefore no right to plea-bargain you down 748 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,440 to false accounting. 749 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:12,280 Jo, no evidence means they had no right to take you to court at all. 750 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,520 Everything I've gone through. 751 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,080 Everything I've lost. 752 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:35,920 Ten... years... 753 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,239 ..of heartache... 754 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:41,719 and sleepless nights... 755 00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:43,840 and always skint. 756 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:50,560 Er, they destroyed our whole life for a lie? 757 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,400 What kind of people are they? 758 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,359 'The Second Sight report 759 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,239 'presented to MPs in Westminster today 760 00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:07,479 'was expected to include criticism of the Horizon computer system 761 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,919 'and of the senior management of the Post Office. 762 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,999 'But while the report does raise concerns about unreliable hardware 763 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,239 'and poor training, a Post Office spokesman said 764 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:19,879 'the investigation clearly shows its Horizon system as a whole 765 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,559 'is operating as it should. 766 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:22,919 'MPs praised the Post Office 767 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,080 'for the way they've dealt with these difficult issues.' 768 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,120 Alan Bates. 769 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,840 Alan, it's Paula Vennells. 770 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,120 Paula. 771 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:53,999 Joking... 772 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,400 So, I was thinking... 773 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,960 ..where do we go from here? 774 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,879 Well, um... 775 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,320 I've been thinking about that, too. 776 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,080 Well, great. Should the two of us try and find a way forward? 777 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,960 If you want something done properly, do it yourself. 778 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,800 Exactly. 779 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,759 Well... 780 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,600 How can I help? 59493

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