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1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,439
The computer system Post Office
spent an arm and a leg on is faulty.
2
00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,359
Oh, my God, it's just doubled
right in front of my eyes.
3
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,319
I haven't got that money.
4
00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,279
The Horizon system
was working properly.
5
00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,719
The losses must have been caused
by Mr Castleton's own error.
6
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,439
How many other subpostmasters
have you found?
7
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,559
Six. Who will go on the record?
8
00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,039
I'm thinking set up a
meeting, send out invitations,
9
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:24,199
see if anyone turns up.
10
00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,799
The Post Office told
us you're the only one.
11
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,039
That was a lie.
12
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,199
From this moment forwards,
13
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,200
none of us will be the
only one ever again.
14
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,080
I just think you've
made a mistake, Sam.
15
00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,039
I know, but they said if I pleaded
guilty, I could have the shop back.
16
00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,599
How is that ever gonna work?
17
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,000
You'll be a convicted criminal.
18
00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,439
Look, I'm your husband, and I have
to read about this in the newspaper.
19
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:15,999
Was on my own in the interview.
20
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,079
I thought I was doing
the right thing.
21
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,199
Jas, please. You're
an innocent woman.
22
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,799
You should've pleaded not
guilty like we agreed.
23
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,479
Come on. We're gonna be late.
24
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,360
They'll have started without us.
25
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,199
It was unbelievable.
26
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,119
The lowest day of my life.
27
00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,799
Uh, hi.
28
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,439
Uh... sorry we're late.
29
00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,199
Um, got a bit lost. Sorry.
30
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,599
Are you... Is this...?
31
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,119
We're all former subpostmasters.
Come in. It's OK.
32
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,120
Please, uh... find a seat.
33
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,959
Uh, I'm Jaz Singh.
34
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,039
I'm Sam, from Walsall.
Yeah, Walsall.
35
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,200
Well, we're all sharing
our stories, er...
36
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,640
I don't know if you want to...
Go on. Go on.
37
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,280
I had no problems till they
sent us a new Horizon PIN pad.
38
00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,199
They just won't have it that there's
something wrong with the thing.
39
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,719
They say I'm piggybacking -
40
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,999
going into the till to pay
out a pension with one hand,
41
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,519
and paying myself
with the other.
42
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,559
I'm guessing they also said you were
the only ones having these problems.
43
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,999
And I'm guessing
they said the same
44
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,599
to everyone else in
this room, right?
45
00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,759
I'm such a fool,
I believed them.
46
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,439
I believed them when they said,
47
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,519
"Just confess you
took that £5,000, Sam,
48
00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,319
"and you'll be back in
your shop tomorrow."
49
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:58,959
You shouldn't have done that.
50
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,479
It was the new PIN pad.
It wasn't your fault.
51
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,559
It was... It wasn't her fault.
52
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,559
Actually, I pleaded guilty too.
53
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,800
So did I.
54
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,919
You did? I can't believe it.
55
00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:16,079
I-I-I thought we were
on our own, you know.
56
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,959
Not any more.
57
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,999
I'm a mother. I don't
want to go to prison.
58
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,279
Look. We're changing
your plea, OK?
59
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,799
Not guilty.
60
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,359
And this time, I'm
coming to court with you.
61
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,319
Hey.
62
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,240
Now, if you're thinking of
going to court, just be careful.
63
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,199
Well, there are people
here who've done time.
64
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,919
We've all lost our
businesses and our savings.
65
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:49,000
The question is, what are
we going to do about it?
66
00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,439
MPs, neither use nor ornament.
67
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,879
Stop it.
68
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,200
Be nice. At least he's taken
the trouble to turn up.
69
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,479
Um... Mrs Hamilton? That's me.
70
00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,959
James Arbuthnot.
71
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,359
Thank you for coming.
72
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,159
My pleasure. Do come in.
73
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:11,920
Jo's mum. Hello.
74
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,159
So, one way or another,
75
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,999
we're all fighting
back every way we can.
76
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,519
We're even thinking about
suing the Post Office.
77
00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,799
I'd like to see you
try, with no money.
78
00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,759
Well, good job talking to your
MP costs absolutely nothing.
79
00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,559
Is this homemade?
It looks delicious.
80
00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,719
Thank you, I will.
81
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,199
We thought maybe you could talk
to the government or something.
82
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,119
Yes, indeed.
83
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,839
There are two other cases
in my constituency alone.
84
00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:41,559
Wow. Really?
85
00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:42,719
It's very odd, isn't it?
86
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,319
I mean, the Post Office
is a national institution.
87
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,359
You think you could trust them
to listen to their own people.
88
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,719
Personally, Mr
Arbuthnot... James, please.
89
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,960
..I wouldn't trust them as
far as I could throw them.
90
00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,239
I'm going to ask
around the House,
91
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,279
see how many members are
hearing similar stories,
92
00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:07,319
make an approach to Post Office
management at the highest level.
93
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,800
I think I feel a
campaign coming on.
94
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,400
Oh, that's lovely.
95
00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:23,079
And so my client, Mrs Kaur,
96
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,479
seeks permission to change
her plea to not guilty.
97
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,839
This is because she had
no solicitor with her
98
00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:31,079
during her interview
under caution,
99
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,559
and because there is
also a technical issue
100
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,479
which you may consider
requires expert evidence
101
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,479
concerning a PIN pad.
102
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:40,639
I can't see anything here.
103
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,360
Her PIN pad was
faulty. Quiet, please.
104
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,959
Very well, Mrs Kaur,
I vacate your plea.
105
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,440
How do you now plead?
106
00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:55,280
Not guilty.
107
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,119
Is that him? The
so-called trade unionist.
108
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,719
He's got a bloody nerve.
109
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,119
Federation man.
110
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,640
A federation man who
calls out of nowhere.
111
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,720
How do we know we can trust him?
112
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,480
We don't.
113
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,159
Michael. Hi, Alan.
114
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,319
Found us, then? Yeah.
115
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:34,879
Never even heard
of Fenny Compton.
116
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,719
All right, everyone,
shall we make a start?
117
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,999
Shall we make a start? Thanks.
118
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,399
Right.
119
00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,119
So, welcome to
the second meeting
120
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,159
of the Justice For
Subpostmasters Alliance.
121
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,759
Now, before we get on
to our campaign update,
122
00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,880
we have a guest who'd
like permission to speak.
123
00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,759
This is Michael Rudkin, friends,
124
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,439
an executive officer of the National
Federation For Subpostmasters.
125
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:15,359
Not any more.
126
00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,759
The federation sent me
back my membership fee,
127
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,119
said they wouldn't represent me.
128
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,319
They told me to get a
good criminal lawyer.
129
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,159
And that was the
last I heard of them.
130
00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,199
My so-called union has been in bed
with the Post Office for years.
131
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,839
I can either leave
by the way I came in
132
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,599
or I can tell you my story.
133
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,400
Up to you, pal.
134
00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,039
You think you're
the little guys,
135
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,280
facing up to one powerful
enemy? You're wrong.
136
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,799
Post Office don't make
the computers, do they?
137
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,359
No, they don't...
design the kit.
138
00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,520
They don't write the software,
they don't run the network.
139
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,519
That's Fujitsu.
140
00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,840
Multinational corporation.
Headquarters in Bracknell.
141
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,559
I've been there. I've
seen what they can do.
142
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,719
Two years ago, I got myself
an invitation to Fujitsu
143
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,239
to sort out the issue with the
foreign exchange stock control
144
00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:09,879
that we were all
having problems with.
145
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,920
Er, Michael Rudkin,
to see George Delph.
146
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,559
Thanks, mate.
147
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,200
'19th of August 2008.'
148
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,639
Cheers. Thanks,
mate. Mr Rudkin.
149
00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,079
George Delph, hi.
150
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,399
Hi. Good to meet you. And you.
151
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,999
Welcome to Fujitsu. Cheers.
152
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,840
If you'd like to follow me.
153
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,519
Horizon is the largest
IT system in Europe.
154
00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,640
We're very proud of that.
Outside the military, that is.
155
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,199
Cost a billion pounds.
156
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,319
We've rolled out 40,000
terminals to your members.
157
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,960
So this accounts for all the
James Bond stuff, does it?
158
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,000
'All I'm expecting is he'll give me
a bit of training I can pass on.'
159
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,599
All right. State-of-the-art
everything.
160
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,999
That must be why a lot of my
members have been complaining
161
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,559
about your rubbish foreign
exchange stock control.
162
00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:10,079
We can help.
163
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,879
A lot of my members
been losing money.
164
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,280
Oh, the bottom
line! Me included.
165
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,880
Meet your friendly
covert operations team.
166
00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:25,639
I get in there, and this guy sits
me down at a Horizon terminal.
167
00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,439
So, easiest way to help
is if I just show you
168
00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,439
how to adjust your
stock control manually.
169
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,159
And I said to him,
"Is this live?"
170
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,720
Sure. Look at the clock.
171
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,239
So, if I start by adjusting
this from sterling to euros.
172
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,559
'And I said to him...'
173
00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:49,279
You're inside some
subpostmaster's Horizon,
174
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,439
and he doesn't know.
175
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,280
He said, "yeah".
176
00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,840
"Yeah, I am."
177
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,319
How else am I gonna
show you how to do this?
178
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,039
'And then, right in
front of my eyes,
179
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,439
'he starts changing the
subpostmaster's figures.'
180
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:07,479
Excuse me.
181
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,599
I've been telling
my members for years
182
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,159
no-one else has access
to their branch accounts.
183
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,039
Uh, OK. Well, um...
184
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,319
I'd better put the figures
back the way they were, then,
185
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:19,680
or they won't balance tonight.
186
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,159
'Ladies and gentlemen,
you know what this means.'
187
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,959
It means they can sneak
in behind your back,
188
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,560
change your figures, bugger
off and leave with no trace.
189
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,239
It's remote access.
190
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,439
Well, makes sense.
191
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,679
It's how they send
updates and bug-fixes.
192
00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:51,759
No, no. No, the help
line. They said that...
193
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,119
They said that was impossible.
194
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,239
They said the branch
accounts were totally secure.
195
00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:56,279
That's what they told me.
196
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:57,920
They lied.
197
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,759
But if they're
getting into our accounts
198
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,399
and messing about in there...
199
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,239
Then it's a bit rich
for them to claim
200
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,719
that we have 100% responsibility
when money goes missing.
201
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,360
Exactly.
202
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,320
So, I drive home from Fujitsu.
203
00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:18,519
The next morning, I wake up,
204
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,719
and my wife is stood at
the foot of our bed...
205
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,840
and there's an
auditor beside her.
206
00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:35,560
"Your Post Office is now
£44,000 in deficit," says he.
207
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,759
Coincidence?
208
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,479
Revenge.
209
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,079
My wife ran the Post Office when
I was away on federation business.
210
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,720
So, although I was
the subpostmaster...
211
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,600
..my poor wife...
212
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,279
..is now a convicted criminal.
213
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,120
You're welcome.
214
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,920
Wait.
215
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,320
Mr Rudkin, thank you.
216
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,079
Thank you.
217
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,440
Yeah, it won't do any good.
218
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,160
So they punished him.
219
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,839
They punished him for
standing up to 'em.
220
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,439
It's what they did to me.
221
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,279
They knew I had to fight them,
222
00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,759
but they knew I
didn't stand a chance.
223
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,719
They just did it to
teach me a lesson,
224
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,159
to teach everyone in
this room a lesson.
225
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,840
That's what we're up against.
THAT is what we're up against.
226
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,039
The Post Office are
still investigating,
227
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,959
so it's going to take a
bit longer than we thought
228
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,479
as it's now 36 charges.
229
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,599
How many? 36 charges.
230
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,039
No, no, no, that's
totally wrong.
231
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:21,919
I've got the indictment
right here, Jas.
232
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,959
It's definitely now 36 charges.
233
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,759
But... it was 19.
234
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,519
Where have all these
new ones come from?
235
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,239
Sam? I don't know,
I don't remember.
236
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,639
And what about this
- her shortfall?
237
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,519
It's now 11,000. That's
more than doubled.
238
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,439
You're selling everyone stamps with
a picture of the Queen on them.
239
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,520
We love the Queen, don't we?
240
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,759
Is she all right?
Yeah, yeah. Just...
241
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,120
All these delays, they're
doing both our heads in.
242
00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:57,399
Jas, I think we should
get a medical report.
243
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,040
When cases go on and on like this,
it can be hard for the defendant.
244
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,000
She's fine.
245
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,200
I'll just go and see if
they're ready for us.
246
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,080
Everyone's eyes are on me.
247
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,920
It's OK.
248
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,720
Sam, can you get the phone?
249
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:49,319
Hello?
250
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,679
Oh, it's Jo.
251
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,719
Gosh, you had me worried there.
I'm just checking in on you.
252
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,840
'Are you OK?'
253
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,119
I'm up and down.
254
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:02,720
Are you getting out at all?
255
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,519
Oh, I can't go out.
256
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,959
Not to the gurdwara, not
even to the supermarket.
257
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,999
I see people I know, and sometimes,
they look surprised to see me,
258
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,320
and I wonder...
259
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,959
..do they think I've
gone to prison already?
260
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,759
Oh, Sam... if I just had the
money for a stupid train ticket.
261
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,879
I wouldn't be
much fun for you, Jo.
262
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,199
Oh, God!
263
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,479
Sam, what is it?
264
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,720
It's OK, it's OK.
I'm all right, Jo.
265
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,320
It's just the postman.
266
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,639
Every time the door goes...
267
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,039
I think it's them,
come to get me.
268
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,199
Oh.
269
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,680
'Oh, you poor thing.'
270
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,119
Yeah, I'd no idea this was
happening to other people.
271
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,519
I thought I was the only one.
272
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,519
There were nights I was just
sobbing, didn't know what to do,
273
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,519
how to get out of this mess.
274
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,519
It sounds like it was
very traumatic for you.
275
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,679
Well, it's not just me
that it's traumatic for.
276
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,199
'I just think that the Post
Office needs to investigate this.
277
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,839
'There's just got to be
something else going on,
278
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,919
'cos it can't be happening
to this many people.'
279
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,239
Jo was great.
280
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,639
She's a natural.
281
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:21,879
Yeah, but who's listening?
282
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,039
How concerned are you about these
allegations against the Post Office?
283
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,319
'I'm very concerned about this.
284
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,399
'Cases seem to be cropping
up all over the country.'
285
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,759
And who knew a Tory
MP could be so nice?
286
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,279
'The Post Office have been,
I think, pretty hard-nosed
287
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,199
'in the way they've taken
the cases to court.'
288
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,879
Trouble is, nobody
watches local news.
289
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,359
'And I think their bosses
need to think again
290
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,120
'and be more sympathetic.'
291
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,079
Be ready.
292
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:17,319
'There are a tiny number
of ex-subpostmasters
293
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,639
'who appear to be making
distinct allegations
294
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,559
'with respect to the operation
of the Horizon system.'
295
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,479
But in two of the cases,
296
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,879
the individuals have in the past
pleaded guilty to false accounting.
297
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,039
I have written back to
the Member of Parliament,
298
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,239
making clear that
Post Office Limited
299
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,559
does not accept any
of the allegations
300
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,239
that are being made
301
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,279
and will robustly
defend its position
302
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,000
if any civil action
is mounted against it.
303
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,199
Freedom of information.
304
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,879
Just when you think
you've cracked it,
305
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,559
they come up with a new
trick to keep us in the dark.
306
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:53,599
Listen to this.
307
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,799
You're only allowed a question,
308
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,479
to ask a question,
309
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,679
that will take one person less
than 18 hours to research.
310
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,840
I mean, what?
311
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,639
What do you think?
312
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,160
Hey.
313
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:13,880
Trying to have a
life here, Alan.
314
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:24,920
I...
315
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:32,160
I just want to be able to... take
you on holiday again, Suzanne.
316
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,639
A proper holiday abroad.
317
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,840
Not just... camping.
318
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:45,720
And still half of Snowdonia
waiting to be climbed.
319
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:53,359
A, the Post Office has
taken all our money.
320
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,400
B, my knees are way too
old for Snowdon now.
321
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,039
And, C, you can't
possibly go on holiday.
322
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,800
You're too busy campaigning,
morning, noon and night.
323
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,040
This is all taking too long.
324
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,559
'My next guest is famous
for pranking the nation
325
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,680
'with hidden camera comedy
shows like Trigger Happy...'
326
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,959
Hiya. You OK? Sorry I'm late.
327
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,160
Got held up, so...
328
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,839
It's OK. Sam.
329
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,919
Sammy, what...?
What have you...?
330
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,119
Sam!
331
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:51,719
It's OK.
332
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,199
It's OK. Sam, what
have you done?
333
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,919
Why have you done this?
Huh? It's not fair.
334
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,519
Sam, look at me. What...?
335
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,119
I had to do something.
336
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:01,479
'999.' I had to do something.
337
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,239
I need an ambulance, please.
338
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,199
45 Falfield Road, Walsall.
339
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,159
It's
not fair. WS2 9WB.
340
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,680
B for Bravo. It's not fair.
341
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,759
I don't want to do it.
They're here to help you.
342
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,519
I tried
everything. Ssh.
343
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,799
I tried everything, Jas, I
tried everything. I know.
344
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,799
I know, it's OK, I'm here.
345
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,320
Hey, can you stop staring at
us? Just mind your own business!
346
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,560
Sam, come on. It's OK, Sam.
347
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,159
What's the next one? Candy.
348
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,319
Candy, OK. See if
you can find it.
349
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,879
He's doing well. Yeah, he'll
be doing the spelling bee soon.
350
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,039
Eh?
351
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,559
Hello. Mr Singh?
352
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,159
Yeah, yeah. Can I have a word?
353
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,600
Yeah. Um, two minutes
and then burgers. OK?
354
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,519
Hey, how are you doing?
355
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,359
'I want to stress she'll be
sedated, she won't feel anything.'
356
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,559
ECT had a lot of bad
press at one point,
357
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,039
but we continue to find it
very useful in giving relief
358
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,600
to patients as severely
depressed as Saman.
359
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,440
And nothing else we've
tried has worked, so...
360
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,320
Just don't go home and
Google it, Mr Singh.
361
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,280
We'll talk more later. Yeah.
362
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,519
Like you're not gonna Google it.
363
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,640
'I know. It's mad.'
364
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,000
But you know the
worst thing, Jo?
365
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,159
If I'd have let her carry on
pleading guilty, like she wanted to
366
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,639
in the first place...
367
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,960
all right, yeah, she-she might
have gone to prison, but...
368
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,439
..she'd be out by now.
369
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,319
Oh, Jas.
370
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,520
My boy would have a mother.
371
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,960
And Sam would be free.
372
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,240
Treat.
373
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,519
The problem
is relatively very small.
374
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,039
Very few complaints.
375
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,119
But this is a very serious
matter for the Post Office,
376
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,039
whose business rests on our
reputation for being trustworthy.
377
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,479
Well, we all represent
constituents who tell us
378
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,559
that your helpline
is of little value,
379
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,559
that the training
you offer is minimal.
380
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,519
Angela is our Head
of Network Services.
381
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,920
Thank you. Um...
382
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,839
Well, the helpline
and support are there.
383
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,959
Now, whether staff take it up
or not, that's another matter.
384
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,519
Mrs Vennells, is the
Post Office saying
385
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,359
that Horizon is 100% foolproof?
386
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,679
Because that would make it the
first perfect software system
387
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,519
ever implemented by government.
388
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,759
The system is robust.
389
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,399
Gentlemen, we have
nothing to hide.
390
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,280
Indeed, we're ready to mount
and fund an independent review.
391
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,439
Well, that's marvellous,
and I'm sure Mr Bates
392
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,719
and the Justice For
Subpostmasters Alliance
393
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,280
will be thrilled to
get involved with that.
394
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,519
Bet you've missed me, Susan.
395
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,159
How is life in the sleepy
old Post Office? Sleepy?
396
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,439
I wish. High finance
misses you, kid.
397
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,879
I'm a proud public servant now.
398
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,439
Well, I'd wager it's not half
as much fun as your old life.
399
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,599
Chasing down villains
and fraudsters with me.
400
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,440
Susan.
401
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,439
Is that what we're doing
here? I don't know.
402
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:41,960
That's why I hired you.
403
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,919
Ah. Angela Van Den Bogerd
is Head of Network Services.
404
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,160
Bob Rutherford from Second
Sight. Angela, nice to meet you.
405
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,119
Here to help.
406
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,959
We've pulled a dozen
files for you to look at,
407
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,239
all the cases the MPs
have been pushing.
408
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,879
Anything else you want,
though, we can provide.
409
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,439
Accounts, procedures,
backgrounds, I'll draw up a list.
410
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,879
And I'd like to visit
Fujitsu in Bracknell.
411
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,639
No problem.
412
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,039
Oh, are you not staying?
413
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,520
Knowing you of old, Bob, I imagine
you're itching to get on the road.
414
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,000
Thank you, all.
415
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,679
'Alan, you can't go
and meet him on your own.
416
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,399
'Because how will you know
what to ask this investigator?
417
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,279
'And because she's my neighbour,
and she's really nice,
418
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,959
'and she wants to help.'
419
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,159
"Kay Linnell, Past
Master and Liveryman."
420
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,919
'Kay Linnell,
forensic accountant.
421
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,119
'Alan, bite her hand off!'
422
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:44,480
Alan?
423
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,440
Alan Bates?
424
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,599
Kay Linnell, Past
Master and Liveryman
425
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,439
of the Worshipful
Company of Arbitrators.
426
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,159
You've been looking me up.
427
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,399
And Board of the Inland Revenue's
former Chief Prosecuting
428
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,199
and Investigating Accountant.
429
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,919
Now, that was a fun job.
430
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,440
Shall we?
431
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,079
May I underline that,
432
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,159
although the Post Office
has agreed to fund
433
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,279
this independent investigation,
434
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,679
Mr Rutherford's
organisation, Second Sight,
435
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,959
will be working for us, the MPs,
436
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,359
and therefore,
indirectly, for you,
437
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,559
Justice for
Subpostmasters Alliance.
438
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:26,919
So...
439
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,479
Alan, Kay, what would
you like to know?
440
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,199
Well, I'd like to know
441
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,879
exactly what makes you think
you're qualified to do this job.
442
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,719
Well, I'm a forensic accountant
of many years' experience.
443
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,119
I don't doubt your paper
qualifications, Mr Rutherford.
444
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:44,959
I have them here in front of me.
445
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,159
But I see nothing to persuade me
446
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,119
that Second Sight
is remotely capable
447
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:53,359
of producing a truly
independent report.
448
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:55,959
One that's ready to bite
the hand that feeds you.
449
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,319
Bob Rutherford is a
member of the Association
450
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,319
of Certified Fraud Examiners.
451
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,959
He has led hundreds of
investigations all over the world
452
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,719
into banking fraud, corruption,
rogue traders, subprime mortgages.
453
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,759
Doesn't answer my question.
454
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,079
How can we be sure you
will investigate fairly
455
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,519
and independently?
456
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,799
Because the people who
suggested me know me of old,
457
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,199
and they want to hire me because
they know what I like to do best,
458
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,880
which is to clear innocent
people who look guilty.
459
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,079
I still don't see
how we can trust him
460
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,319
when he's taking
Post Office money.
461
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,439
Well, you can't pay him.
Can't pay you either.
462
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,359
I'll help in my spare time.
463
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,439
What I really need is lawyers
who'll work for nothing.
464
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,999
One day, you'll find
your precious lawyers
465
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,199
and we'll get this
scandal into court.
466
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,599
But we'll need evidence which
mortals like us haven't a hope
467
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,239
of getting our hands on.
468
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,839
But Bob's outfit,
Second Sight...
469
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,320
they'll have access to
seven years of raw data.
470
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,319
This Bob...
471
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,279
he can't just look at
individual cases, though.
472
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,959
He has to look at Horizon
as a whole, as a system.
473
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,719
Am I to take it you're happy
to support his investigation?
474
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,760
Well, being as it's the
only one we've got...
475
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,079
When I first came
to the Post Office,
476
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,999
they were introducing chip and
PIN, and it never worked properly.
477
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,719
The base unit, the
Horizon computer...
478
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,319
whatever you call it,
479
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,359
the thing that sits
under the counter,
480
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,639
I thought of it as
like an alien thing.
481
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,319
Sometimes, engineers
would come from Fujitsu,
482
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,039
with their clever badges on,
483
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,560
and I never had any idea
what they were doing.
484
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,279
This is probably a really
stupid question, Bob.
485
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,359
There are no such things
as stupid questions,
486
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,040
only stupid answers.
487
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,800
That £36,000 I'm
supposed to have lost...
488
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,359
..where did it go?
489
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,439
I haven't got it.
490
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,840
So who has?
491
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,319
I don't know...
492
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,560
but I'm going to find out.
493
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,679
It's a
bed-and-breakfast now.
494
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,439
We're private people, Bob.
495
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,760
This was our family home.
496
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,079
But the Post office
gave us no option.
497
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,199
No other way of making a living.
498
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Thank you.
499
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,000
Cheers, love.
500
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,360
My wife has had it so
much harder than me.
501
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,800
Susan was in charge while I was
away on federation business.
502
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,759
She never told me, so I had
no idea she was in trouble.
503
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,679
Even though at least half
my work in federation
504
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:17,960
was Horizon-related by then.
505
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:21,920
I said to her...
506
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,640
.."You've ruined
my fucking career.
507
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,400
"You've destroyed our business."
508
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,400
Mr Rudkin, please don't feel
obliged to divul... I said...
509
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,040
I said I'd divorce her.
510
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,479
Now, they punished my wife...
511
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,279
who never stole a penny piece...
512
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,799
just because I
got inside Fujitsu
513
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,080
and saw something
that I shouldn't have.
514
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,159
I think what I
had was a computer bug.
515
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,519
I think it was called
a Callendar Square Bug.
516
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,759
I can't be sure.
517
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,959
But it was real.
518
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,799
It was real. Other
people had it.
519
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,759
Yeah, I tried... I tried
to tell the court that,
520
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,559
and I just kept sort
of saying it wrong.
521
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,400
And the more I
tried, the more I...
522
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,320
I can't explain it.
523
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,279
Well, it was like...
524
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,919
I was on the edge of...
525
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,000
a great, dark hole.
526
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,519
I was... I was just
falling into it.
527
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,159
The thing is, I knew
that they were lying,
528
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,760
and I knew I was
telling the truth.
529
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,399
And I just thought,
"This is British justice.
530
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,439
"That's all I've got to
do, is tell the truth."
531
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,240
Oh.
532
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,799
Sorry. Oh, no,
no, no. God, no!
533
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,079
I don't wanna upset you, I
was just trying to tell you...
534
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,239
No...
535
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,399
No, it's just, the more
of you people I meet,
536
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,800
the less I... know how
you're all still standing.
537
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,879
Yeah.
538
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,639
Susan. Am I
expecting you today?
539
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,399
We need to speak now.
540
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,919
Always good to see an old
friend, but I do have a diary.
541
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,200
Not today, you don't.
542
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,839
Lee Castleton.
543
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,559
You know, the one you hounded
544
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,359
all the way to the
Royal Courts of Justice?
545
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,079
That was my predecessor. When
you knew he had no money.
546
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,199
You have humiliated him,
547
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,240
you have bankrupted
him, and I don't get it.
548
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,439
Yes. I don't know
why we did that.
549
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,079
Well, let me suggest two
reasons. One, you're stupid.
550
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,999
Or, two, you want to rub
his nose in the dirt,
551
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,199
use him to frighten
off everyone else.
552
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,479
I wasn't even here then.
553
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,639
Oh, please. What is
wrong with you people?
554
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,559
Are we ever to see the PIN pad
555
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,239
that Mrs Kaur alleges was
responsible for her shortfalls?
556
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,079
Your Honour, I can now confirm
557
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,199
that Post Office Limited is unable
to produce the PIN pad in question.
558
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,879
Because...? I'm told it
was sent away for repair
559
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,279
and has been reprogrammed.
560
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,879
So it WAS faulty?
561
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,799
In those circumstances, Your Honour,
the prosecution offers no evidence.
562
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,559
This matter has dragged
on for three years.
563
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,319
I direct that a not-guilty
verdict be entered
564
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,799
on all 36 counts
on the indictment.
565
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,119
Mrs Kaur, you're free to leave.
566
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,520
Court rise.
567
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,640
Congratulations.
568
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,279
Hey. See?
569
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,759
You were right. It was faulty.
570
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,759
Sam, three years of our lives,
but it's over now, OK? No.
571
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,759
Because they won't ever put another
picture in the paper, will they,
572
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,600
to say I'm innocent?
573
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,600
Come on.
574
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,159
We're
making progress.
575
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,479
Now the investigation is
properly up and running,
576
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,479
I just thought,
enough go-betweens.
577
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,639
What a good idea to
bring you two together.
578
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,599
I do hope it's been
useful for both of you.
579
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,279
Terrific idea. Thank you, James.
580
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,359
And, Alan, I do hope
you'll take away from this
581
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,599
a sure understanding
that Post Office
582
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,679
is as fully committed as you
are to resolving this situation.
583
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,520
Thank you.
584
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,639
And, erm... if
there's anything else?
585
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,479
Uh, no, I... Actually...
586
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,999
Er...
587
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,520
Why are you only
looking at 12 cases?
588
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:05,759
Well, they are the 12 cases put
forward by Members of Parliament.
589
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,279
All the cases where we are alert
590
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,239
to the possibility of
miscarriage of justice.
591
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,519
There are a lot
more, though, Paula.
592
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,439
Victims who were never charged
with any criminal offence.
593
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,319
But perhaps your people
haven't told you about that.
594
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,879
About all the destitution -
people sleeping in their cars,
595
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,479
losing their house,
their health.
596
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,040
Surely you'd like to
hear from them, too?
597
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,399
Is that your
throwaway exit line?
598
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,239
I was just thinking, you know,
if you knew the full story,
599
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,039
you wouldn't want that
on your conscience.
600
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,639
So...
601
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,720
Well, shall I
suggest a few names?
602
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:54,880
Yes, erm...
603
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,719
Good idea.
604
00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:59,040
These are what I have here.
605
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,439
- Bob, good to hear from you.
- 'Hi there.'
606
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,919
The day you went to Fujitsu...
607
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,079
are you sure it was
the 19th of August?
608
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,279
Uh, 2008, yeah.
609
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,799
Never forget that - last
day of our old life.
610
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,599
Michael, you're not down as a
visitor on their security logs.
611
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,559
Post Office are denying that
your visit ever happened.
612
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,400
Course they are.
'Can you prove it?'
613
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,480
Michael, can you
prove you were there?
614
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,599
Bob, it was four years ago.
615
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,520
'I don't work for the
Post Office any more.'
616
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,440
Look at your new best friend
pretending she can do a proper job.
617
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,679
'It's lovely to be here. Thank you.'
618
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,479
'Paula, how often do
you get to visit a place like this?'
619
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,319
'Probably once a
month if I can.'
620
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,479
Oh, please!
621
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,799
'And what reaction do you get?
I mean, you're the big boss.
622
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,559
'Do they get intimidated? 'No.
623
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,679
'This is the Post Office.
624
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,839
'I get treated the
same as everybody else,
625
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,159
'and they tell me how it is.'
626
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,679
'And what's it like being the chief
executive of a major company?'
627
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,239
'Well, I think you can tell
by the smile on my face
628
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:30,439
'that it's... it's great.
629
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,079
'Retail is detail...' Shut up.
630
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,359
Shut up, you silly cow.
631
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,880
Come on. Come and
get your breakfast.
632
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,599
I shall
present evidence to show
633
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,039
that the Post Office has
made failures in support,
634
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,719
investigation, training,
635
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,079
and I found clear
evidence of two bugs.
636
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,119
Two?
637
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,719
We gave you 47 cases. 47!
638
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:01,079
And this draft report of
yours only mentions three.
639
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,839
Where's Michael Rudkin,
640
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,919
who can prove they're
lying about remote access?
641
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,759
He can't prove it, actually.
642
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,279
Well, Members of Parliament
643
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,759
would certainly like to see
more individual cases. Oh!
644
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,159
Look, the point is
not individual cases.
645
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,959
The point is total systemic
failure, which you don't mention.
646
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,359
Well, we haven't found hard
evidence of that, either.
647
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,719
Well, what would you call
the endless PIN pad anomalies
648
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:26,919
and shortfalls doubling
before people's eyes
649
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,599
and overnight
so-called corrections?
650
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,519
Well, there are 68,000 users,
651
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,999
processing six million
transactions a day.
652
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,439
Well, this is just the gospel
according to the Post Office.
653
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,199
Alan. For it to be systemic,
that would have to mean
654
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,559
that the whole network was
affected. And it just isn't.
655
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,439
What about the way they abuse
their power and prosecute people
656
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:46,879
without investigating properly?
657
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,759
And then... And then terminate
them on three months' notice
658
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,439
and walk away with
their life savings?
659
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,479
Is that not a systemic failure?
660
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,839
We all agreed from the beginning
661
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,159
that the report should be
accurate and evidence-based.
662
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,559
The Post Office has left
a trail of destruction
663
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,279
ever since the day that
Horizon was introduced,
664
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,599
and we're just sitting
around chatting about it
665
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,479
while they're still
ruining lives...
666
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,680
systemically.
667
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,679
I agreed to this.
668
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,679
I must've been mad.
669
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,399
Welshmen with bees
in their bonnets.
670
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,239
I was born in Liverpool.
671
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:26,319
He's an accountant, Alan.
He's naturally cautious.
672
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,519
Cautious like you?
I can be cautious.
673
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,840
Wasn't me in there
banging the table.
674
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,919
I've never seen
you angry before.
675
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,039
All that grandstanding,
you mean?
676
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:38,799
I learnt that from you, Kay.
677
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,640
Ah, I don't get angry,
I just get frustrated.
678
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,639
Second Sight are
going to have to
679
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,800
come up with something
better than this.
680
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:03,399
'Bob, how's it going?'
681
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,039
Michael. Good.
Um... any luck?
682
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,760
It's been a long time. A lot
of water under the bridge.
683
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,239
Yes, OK.
684
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:12,719
'I understand.'
685
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:15,240
But, uh... see attached.
686
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,400
Oh, my fucking good God.
687
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,399
Michael, thank you.
688
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,680
'Thank you so much.'
689
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,239
So, Bob, I can confirm
that in August 2008,
690
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:50,719
the basement of Fujitsu's
building in Bracknell
691
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,599
did contain a Horizon
test environment.
692
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,839
Note, a TEST environment.
693
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,679
And that's what we believe your
subpostmaster Mr Rudkin saw.
694
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,039
He got the wrong
end of the stick.
695
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,439
The test environment
wasn't physically connected
696
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,359
to the live Horizon system,
so... it wasn't possible
697
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,400
for the transactions he
thought he saw to be real.
698
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,400
Got it. Thank you.
699
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,640
That's cleared that up. Good.
700
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,199
I'll see you out.
701
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,239
Thank you for joining
me by conference call.
702
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:33,359
I'm sorry for the short notice
in keeping the board updated.
703
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,439
The Horizon review
interim report
704
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,919
will be presented to
MPs in one week's time.
705
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,279
The report has found
no systemic issues
706
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,439
with the Horizon computer
system, but I am concerned
707
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,519
that the report from the
independent forensic accountant
708
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,720
is not as factual as expected...
709
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,360
..and could lead
to loose language.
710
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,679
What are you?
Poacher-turned-gamekeeper?
711
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,639
This report of yours turns out
to be not half-bad, considering.
712
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,000
Faint
praise. I like it.
713
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,039
Oh, I just hope it
makes a difference.
714
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,839
What got Michael Rudkin
into the final version?
715
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,639
Hm. An email inviting
him to Bracknell,
716
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,919
copied to seven named
Post office executives.
717
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,039
Hold on.
718
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,119
So, first, they say
he wasn't there,
719
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,359
then they say he was there.
720
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,759
But, what, his glasses
were broken?
721
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,959
I wonder if they even know
they're talking bollocks.
722
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,279
Welcome on board, Bob.
723
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,719
Yeah, they still say that there's
no remote access into your accounts.
724
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,719
I'm sorry, but I don't think
I'm going to be able to prove
725
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:53,159
that they're wrong and that
you're right on this one. Ah.
726
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,959
But, Alan, there
are things in...
727
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,879
documents that I found
in the Post Office files.
728
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,720
Beyond belief. Going
to tell me more?
729
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,280
Someone else I
need to tell first.
730
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,999
Wow! Good morning.
Good morning, Mr Frog.
731
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,039
There he is! There he is.
732
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,119
Let's say good
morning. Hello, all.
733
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,759
Bob, we're baby-sitting
in the sunshine.
734
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,879
Isn't he gorgeous?
735
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,200
I was hoping you'd be
sitting somewhere quiet.
736
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:24,599
Yeah, I can do that, or
I can put the kettle on.
737
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,960
Oh, me and Joshua will
put the kettle on.
738
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,959
Your investigator, Ryan Fleming.
739
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,039
The toad?
740
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,360
Did you ever see his
report about you?
741
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,280
No.
742
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,999
The 17th of May, 2006,
743
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,719
he recorded that he had
analysed your Horizon accounts
744
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:52,359
and was unable to find
any evidence of theft.
745
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,319
I pleaded guilty to false
accounting instead. Mm.
746
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,719
Yes. No evidence means they had
no right to charge you with theft,
747
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:04,759
and therefore no right
to plea-bargain you down
748
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,440
to false accounting.
749
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:12,280
Jo, no evidence means they had no
right to take you to court at all.
750
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,520
Everything I've gone through.
751
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,080
Everything I've lost.
752
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:35,920
Ten... years...
753
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,239
..of heartache...
754
00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:41,719
and sleepless nights...
755
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:43,840
and always skint.
756
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:50,560
Er, they destroyed our
whole life for a lie?
757
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,400
What kind of people are they?
758
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,359
'The
Second Sight report
759
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,239
'presented to MPs
in Westminster today
760
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:07,479
'was expected to include criticism
of the Horizon computer system
761
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,919
'and of the senior management
of the Post Office.
762
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,999
'But while the report does raise
concerns about unreliable hardware
763
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,239
'and poor training, a
Post Office spokesman said
764
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:19,879
'the investigation clearly shows
its Horizon system as a whole
765
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,559
'is operating as it should.
766
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:22,919
'MPs praised the Post Office
767
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,080
'for the way they've dealt
with these difficult issues.'
768
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,120
Alan Bates.
769
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,840
Alan, it's Paula Vennells.
770
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,120
Paula.
771
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:53,999
Joking...
772
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,400
So, I was thinking...
773
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,960
..where do we go from here?
774
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,879
Well, um...
775
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,320
I've been thinking
about that, too.
776
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,080
Well, great. Should the two of
us try and find a way forward?
777
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,960
If you want something done
properly, do it yourself.
778
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,800
Exactly.
779
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,759
Well...
780
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,600
How can I help?
59493
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