Original subtitles

- The Air Force has been accused

from time to time of hiding information about UFO.

What do you have to say to that kind of thing?

Well, these charges are absolutely untrue.

We've always honored accredited media.

When they wanna investigate,

they're given specific sighting.

There is nothing to hide?

There is nothing to hide at all.

Bombshell allegations that the US

has retrieved alien technology.

David Grusch, a whistleblower who has accused

the government of withholding information related to UFOs.

Grusch claimed the Pentagon

is hiding evidence of non-human origin spacecraft.

Has given Congress classified information.

Working on a secret

government UFO crash retrieval program.

That has reportedly found wreckage

of fully intact UFOs.

Something the Pentagon disputes.

- George Knapp and I fought hard with a lot of others

behind the scenes to make sure

that this hearing could happen.

This was the first time in history

you have actual whistleblowers

coming forward in front of Congress.

Dave Grusch talked about non-human biologics.

He knows where UAPs were recovered,

that there are over a dozen space craft.

Saying UAPs are in our airspace,

and they are, quote, "Grossly under-reported."

This is being taken very, very serious.

Congress is very much aware

that this is a significant issue.

These things are having

an actual impact on our military.

There are witnesses

associated with the government

who are concerned about retaliation.

He detailed multiple threats to his own life

and to other people who are around him.

There's something going on

that they're trying to keep secret.

I mean, that's obvious.

There is something about these phenomena

that they do not want us to know the truth behind it.

- So there has been activity by alien

or non-human technology and/or beings,

that has caused harm to humans?

- What I personally witnessed,

myself and my wife, was very disturbing.

- My name is Jeremy Corbell.

Nobody that I have met knows

the true story, the true answers

about what UFOs represent to humanity.

And it is part of my life mission

to try to get closer to that truth.

When people say you can't handle the truth,

I don't buy that for one second,

we've always been able to handle the truth.

Anytime you get resistance,

or anytime there's some suppression, that fuels me.

It's a high stakes game being a whistleblower.

There are covert and overt attempts

to stop individuals from speaking about what they know

when it comes to UAP.

People don't want this information,

whatever it might be, to be public.

They're gonna try to dehumanize the messenger

to diminish the message.

That's old hat, that's old trick, that's 101 disinformation.

People who know things,

especially top secret things,

I would say are at risk.

- Oh, fuck yeah, they are.

I wanna know your thoughts on that.

- At being at risk?

- Yeah. - I'm a journalist,

I'm untouchable.

You have an inspiring amount of confidence

that journalists are safe.

- Gimme just a sec, okay?

The House Oversight Committee is set to hear

from three witnesses this morning.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony

you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth,

and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

- David Grusch coming forward

is a symbol of the times we're in now.

It's a symbol of people being sick and tired

of being lied to about the presence of UFOs on planet Earth.

This is just next level, this is just next level shit.

- I was informed in the course of my official duties

of a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval

and reverse engineering program.

- David Grusch had been a soldier in Afghanistan,

and he worked on the UAP task force.

So he had a very legitimate,

and very high level intelligence background.

He knew, from talking to high level people

in the intelligence community, that the United States

had retrieved intact craft not of earthly origin.

- Have you met with people with direct knowledge,

or have direct knowledge yourself of non-human origin craft?

- Yes, I personally interviewed those individuals.

- There he is telling the world, not only are UFOs real,

but we've been reverse engineering them.

That not only the craft,

but there were biologics associated with the craft.

We're talking pilots, we're talking beings, people.

And if you understand what's going on with the UFO topic,

people that are not from here.

- There are non-human pilot,

bodies of non-humans recovered with these crafts,

which if substantiated would, you know,

it would be one of the most important discoveries

ever made on the planet.

If I was to tell you about David Grusch

two years ago and what he's come out with

in terms of the allegations he made,

you would've think I'm mad.

You would've thought I'm absolute crazy,

but this is where we're at now in terms of reality.

- I have to be careful what I say in detail

because there is an open

whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf.

It was very brutal and very unfortunate.

Some of the tactics they used to hurt me,

both professionally and personally, to be quite frank.

- He came forward because he feared

for his personal wellbeing, for his safety, for his life.

And so, this was a bombshell.

- As you know, I've suffered retaliation for my decision,

but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead

to a positive outcome of increased transparency.

- Have you had incidences that have caused you

to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues?

- Yes, personally.

- The idea that our government could potentially

be retaliating against whistleblowers

who want to come forward,

and not just threatening their careers,

but also their lives.

I mean, this is a huge story.

Every American really should be taken seriously.

- I do have knowledge of active

planned reprisal activity against myself

and other colleagues and it's very, very upsetting to me.

- Coming from where?

- Certain senior leadership at previous agencies

I was associated with.

- If the government is retaliating against David Grusch,

they're doing so for a reason.

And it wouldn't just be because he's saying things

that they don't like, that's terrifying.

Why would they be retaliating against him

if what he's saying isn't true?

- There were certain colleagues of mine

that were brutally, administratively attacked.

And it, you know, actually makes me very upset.

- Look, when you go through this process,

it becomes very personal.

This is a real person, I've gotten to know him.

I mean, he's been to my house, he's met my family.

And it's not just somebody you see on television,

there's real repercussions to his life and his career.

- Has any of the activity been aggressive,

been hostile in your reports?

- I know of multiple colleagues of mine

that got physically injured, and the activity-

- By UAPs, or by people within

the federal government? - Both.

- With a guy like David Grusch,

when he made his testimony, I said to my wife,

"This man will experience death by 1,000 cuts."

It's the nail that sticks out that gets hammered.

David Grusch came forward with claims

the United States government is attempting to leak

medical records detailing his struggle

with post-traumatic stress disorder

to the intercept in order to discredit him.

- It doesn't surprise me, but it is in the rule book

of how you try to disassemble a witness.

So after the hearing, I mean you could script it,

and the PTSD thing is like the lowest hanging fruit.

If you want to discredit the message,

you discredit the messenger.

- What I said in the article, and what the documents

that I found under FOIA show,

is that his current wife described him as an alcoholic

and said that he has these episodes.

If you're gonna go in for a medical procedure

and you find out the surgeon is an alcoholic,

is that gonna factor into your, you know,

assessment of whether or not this person,

you know, has the judgment that they need?

I think it should.

- You had somebody in the intelligence community

that knew this information,

that told this reporter,

"hey, you ought to go look at this arrest report,"

and the arrest report documents the PTSD.

You had intelligence community leaking this,

and I'm sure they're interviewing

my third grade girlfriend as we speak.

- The article itself didn't even pretend

to not be a hit job.

- PTSD maybe is something to kid about in Washington D.C.,

or to make fun of, but I'll tell you what,

where I come from, we take that stuff serious.

We value and honor our veterans,

and I knew they would do it.

- Is reporting on someone's mental health crisis,

one that David GrUsch suffered

five years ago, really fair game?

- It's interesting that they would use PTSD

to discredit him for a war veteran, that seems insane.

You're shaming someone for seeking help from something

that most soldiers come back and have to deal with.

That's really insane.

- One of the biggest issues for individuals

suffering from it is not receiving treatment

due to stigma associated with that.

- They're despicable, they're dirt bags,

but it's about power, it's about control.

Could you imagine if you had an energy source,

that those videos showed,

that doesn't send off a heat signature,

what that would do to the Pentagon?

They would get all the oil barons,

they could eat their sand, they could eat that oil.

It'd put 'em all outta business.

The war pimps at the Pentagon, they'd have to go looking

for something else to do.

We wouldn't be fighting

these worthless wars overseas for oil.

You're talking about billions of dollars,

light years ahead of research.

So, yeah, you think they wouldn't ruin your career for that?

- These are such bullshit, little nitpicky

attempts to silence him

- Yes - And punish him

for what he had already shared.

He was very upset, very depressed,

drinking too much, suffering classic symptoms of PTSD,

and it spilled over.

I think his wife told police,

he wants to kill himself, he needs help.

He was detained, put him in a facility

to protect him for 24 hours.

This is serious, it's been serious for a long time,

and it's been ignored for way too long.

- George Knapp and I, we know how the media works,

we can see how the pushback works.

We know how the disinformation campaign works,

and it's like just trying

to cut away at people's credibility.

- To have that particular moment,

the lowest moment in his life,

exploited and exposed and ridiculed,

is the lowest of the low.

It's among the worst slime jobs by a major news organization

that I have ever seen.

- Nobody was suggesting that his accounts

of the retrieved craft and other things that he said

to Congress were not true, or were the products of trauma.

I guess that was the impression that the article

was trying to give,

that there was something wrong with his story.

- The intercept was created by and for whistleblowers.

It was created in the wake

of the Edward Snowden revelations.

It's in their mission statement, this place is supposed

to be a safe haven for whistleblowers.

- Their motive was simply, it was reprisals.

They're sending a message, they don't want David

to speak out and they wanna muzzle anyone else

who wants to speak out as well.

- Mr. Grusch, finally, do you believe that our government

is in possession of UAPs?

- Absolutely, based on interviewing

over 40 witnesses over four years.

- Did you have any personal knowledge of people

who have been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up

or conceal these extraterrestrial technology?

- Yes, personally.

- There we go, boom.

There you are. - I see you.

- Hey, what's up buddy? How you doing?

- Good, good.

- I love the beard, man. Fear the beard, bro.

- Yeah, well it's heading into the winter,

and I like to keep my face warm when it's windy

here out in Colorado, so.

- I just wanna call you, man, and just kinda ask,

how's it been going since you talked in front of Congress?

- Slow and steady, I mean, there's some Congressional

interactions that I'm a part of right now behind the scenes.

It looks like there's still momentum, but, you know,

based on world events recently,

hopefully that doesn't distract from this process, but.

- Yeah, so for you, is there any moment

where you've kind of regretted speaking up?

You kind of had to, right?

- Yeah, I mean I saw that that was the,

you know, course of action I had to do.

I mean, you know, I don't, yeah, regret it.

It's, you know, I didn't wanna live in the matrix

when there's stuff like this that's being,

you know, hidden from the world populace.

There were certain colleagues of mine

that were brutally administratively attacked.

And it, you know, actually makes me very upset

as a leader, to see that happen to other coworkers.

- I was talking with the guys earlier today

and we talked a little bit about reprisals,

not just the ones that are private,

but the public ones, you know, when they were attacking

in the Intercept and shit like that.

We're just talking about how hard

that must be to kind of navigate all that,

but you've done a good job, man.

- Appreciate it, yeah, it's always hard to, you know,

look at what the armchair quarterbacks

and, you know, people who don't even know you

wanna say about you.

So, it comes to the territory.

- Were they human or non-human biologics?

- Non-human, and that was the assessment of people

with direct knowledge on the program

I talked to that are currently still on the program.

- Other than the retaliation, the threats,

the reprisals you are facing,

this is and was a matter of principle to you,

that human beings have a right to know this truth, right?

- Oh, 100%, yeah, I'm not doing this for fame or fortune.

And it was not career-enhancing,

and I had to do it for my further my own protection.

When it seemed like my inspector general complaints

and my reprisal complaints weren't gonna fully shield me

from, you know, ongoing

attacks behind the scenes against myself.

Somebody had to do it and I just decided to do that

for the good of the people behind the scenes

that are with me on this.

- The way they tried to attack you for your PTSD

and dehumanize you, do you think that the people

that we know are coming forward,

people that have filed IG complaints

to follow in your footsteps, right?

Do you think they're encouraged by how you've been treated?

- Some were encouraged and inspired,

and obviously there were a number of individuals

that went to the inspector general after I went public.

But they certainly saw like that hit piece on me

and other things and, you know,

that certainly frightens anybody to, you know,

have that kind of stuff exposed in your personal life

just because you're trying to do something, you know,

hopefully magnanimous for everybody else.

- Did you see a reaction from everybody

when you were getting kind of messed with?

- Yeah, I mean certainly loved ones and people around me,

you know, are pretty pissed off to see a lot of that stuff,

but I certainly psychologically prepared

for kind of the basic attacks.

And, you know, you're never fully ready

to kind of see that out in the public sphere.

But, you know, I tried to prepare myself for it.

- The attacks on you, and some are very frightening

to your own physical wellbeing,

the world doesn't know that story yet.

- Not yet, no, there was stuff that happened

in my personal life when I was still in government

that caused a lot of concern, and I had to report that

to certain intelligence community authorities.

- There's this hesitancy of people to really commit to this,

I dunno what you call it, like disclosure or confirmation.

Come hell or high water, it's gonna happen, right?

- Yeah, there's plenty of people that can back up

my allegations that I've, you know, presented publicly.

And a lot of them talk to the inspector general

that had that firsthand knowledge,

or on these programs.

I don't, you know, regret anything I've said.

Everything I've said is true and accurate to my knowledge.

And I think it would be the most courageous thing to,

you know, change the tide on this and allow

a democratic process to ensue to determine

what the public needs to know or can know,

versus the way basically a, you know, cabal of government

and, you know, industrial partners decided

to have a truth embargo on reality.

I'm excited that this is where the work starts,

getting you up there in front of Congress

and you standing there and telling everybody what's up.

That's one step, but that's now just the beginning

to the work that's gonna be done

about bringing people forward and telling the truth

to the America public about UFOs.

- Exactly, I know what I uncovered with high confidence.

And, you know, I'm just here to hold the government

accountable publicly because I felt,

you know, that deep conviction.

But, you know, buckle up,

I guess we'll see if there's any bumps in the road.

I'm driven by a commitment to both

to truth and transparency.

I'm asking Congress to hold our government to this standard

and thoroughly investigate these claims, but as I-

- Are you personally optimistic about that,

where we're going with this?

- On the UAP issue, yes, I am liking where we're going.

I think there's a lot of energy still,

and we just have to deal with the politics,

especially in Washington and Congress right now.

But overall, I'm pretty excited

for where things are heading.

- I think for a lot of people,

it's some sort of ontological shock

to have this decorated intelligence officer

who is a true whistleblower standing up there boldly

and being like, "Look, you've been lied to,

UFOs are real, we've been reverse engineering these craft."

"Not only that, but there's biologics associated with these,

all of this has been hidden from you,

and it's time to end that."

And I think if we keep pushing for that,

then we're gonna make a lot of progress, man.

So, just thanks for being loud about this.

I know you took a lot of personal risk, but I got your back

and I know a lot of other people do too, so, thank you.

- Yeah, you're welcome.

- The United States is not

particularly friendly to whistleblowers.

For many years, it was basically the kiss of death

on your career to come forward.

If you were a government employee or a military person,

to come forward with something that you knew about UFOs,

that was not a good career move, that's for sure.

- There is an army of people who either want to come forward

or are in process of coming forward.

Now, I've personally spoken to numerous individuals,

I mean, more than I can say right here.

But the thing is, is that a lot of people

are in a really sticky situation,

even stickier than David Grusch's.

- In my experience, I have encountered a few moments

where very prominent individuals

have told me that things are not safe.

Many years ago I had a conversation with former astronaut

Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 14.

Five, four, three, two, one.

This is Houston,

you're a go for landing.

He was the sixth man to walk on the moon.

And in talking about the secrecy of this,

he was explicit with me.

Edgar said to me, "I know of several people who've got

definite information about alien bodies and technology,

but we'll never be able to get them to come forward."

He said that the danger to them, to their careers,

and to their families is too great.

- These individuals are oftentimes

still active in these programs.

Can you imagine being just a normal person,

you've got a family, children to take care of,

and you're thinking about, is this that important to me

to be the person that testifies to that degree?

I mean, it's a real question you have to ask yourself.

- Dozens more of government UFO whistleblowers

have come forward to share information about UFOs

to Congress, the Pentagon, and the inspectors general.

- I had another individual who had an extensive amount

of classified history, and all kinds of sensitive

compartment information, black budget programs and the like,

who said to me, "When you get to the certain level

of secrecy, you're not even asked to sign

any NDAs or disclaimers."

He says, "It is known that you will not talk again,

this is like the mafia."

It is understood, you do not talk about these things,

or things will not go well for you.

- One of the ways that people are preemptively

pushed off track if they're thinking about coming forward,

is putting them under review,

questioning their mental health.

All of this keeping their clearances in a purgatory,

so they literally can't leave the job

that they are doing at that time.

- You know, you research a subject like this

for a long enough period of time,

you are going to come across

disturbing and shocking

pieces of information.

I remember close to 20 years ago,

I was shown a series of notes about alien technology,

and the attempt to replicate that technology.

And in 2019, 13 years later, those notes, all of them,

were leaked out to the public.

These were notes written by Dr. Eric Davis,

a very brilliant, brilliant man, who had an interview

in 2002 with an admiral named Thomas Wilson,

who was Head of Intelligence for the joint Chiefs of Staff

back during the administration of President Bill Clinton.

They're known as the Davis Wilson Notes.

When those notes came out, I knew for a fact

that those notes were legit, and I put myself out there

to publicly state that that's real.

This is a conversation about Wilson's failed attempt

to get access to a program that was designed

to study and replicate a genuine alien flying saucer.

Just think about that implication for a minute.

I go out and I make this statement, "That's real,"

and my God, you wanna talk about a hornet's nest,

that is a mother fucking hornet's nest.

When those notes were were released,

you had a huge portion saying, "That's a hoax,

that's nonsense, that's disinformation, whatever,"

and I got a lot of personal attacks during that time too.

Like, "Dolan's an idiot, he's a fool,

he doesn't know what he's talking about,

he's a liar," whatever.

Well, no, those notes were absolutely real,

and researchers absolutely understand

those totally are real.

- It also gets a lot darker, the direct retaliation,

the physical threats, and some of it's so diabolical.

To keep things secret, people are silenced.

I don't know how better to say that.

- When you go back through the long history of this subject,

there have actually been some very, very odd

and mysterious and unexplained injuries and deaths

to certain researchers over time.

And it makes you wonder, is there something going on here?

- People often ask, well, "Why was the government

so insistent in knocking down these UFO stories?"

Because it did not wanna admit

that here was a phenomenon

that the government couldn't protect us from.

They had aerodynamic properties

that exceeded anything we could do,

and if they did turn hostile, there was no way

that our government could protect people around the world

from whatever technology these things,

whatever they were, possessed.

And that apparently was a big motivating factor

to ridicule them, to create this stigma around it,

which persists to this day.

- The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful

and challenges national security.

It silences commercial pilots

who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses.

I urge us to put aside stigma, and address the security

and safety issue this topic represents.

- This idea of how we stigmatize UFOs,

that was part of a disinformation campaign to begin with,

to make UFOs part of the laugh factory,

to make it something that intelligent people

just don't talk about.

- Governor Christie, do you believe

that the recent spike in UFO encounters-

- I get the UFO question.

- Yeah, you do. - Come on.

Have you seen spacecraft

made from outside of this world?

- Absolutely not, no.

Has anyone ever talked about

that with you? - No.

- I feel bad for them if they just try to laugh this off.

I'm not sure exactly what causes smart people

to blind themselves to try to fight,

to understand the unknowable or the unknown.

Then we've incentivized human beings to really take a look

at what's going on, what's right in front of their face.

- If anyone would know about aliens on earth,

it would probably be me.

- I would think.

- Yeah, I'm, you know, very familiar with space stuff.

I've seen no evidence of aliens,

so I would immediately tweet it out.

This is, for a second, it'd be like,

that would be like an all time,

probably top tweet of all time.

Tell one guys, tough.

That's the jackpot.

- I have talked to pilots myself,

and many see these things and many don't report them

because there was a stigma for many years.

If you report a UFO on a commercial flight,

you go straight to the psychiatrist.

Hey, did you see a flying disc out by C17?

Oh, don't even start, Sue.

You're seeing flying discs? Come on, Sue.

You don't see it, right?

You guys been celebrating the holidays or anything, or what?

You having a Christmas party today?

I have not seen anything, Sue.

And if I did, I wouldn't admit to it.

- The airline companies did not wanna hear about it,

and that was a policy, do not report UFOs.

Many, many commercial pilots have seen things

that they cannot explain.

We just had something go right over the top

of us that, I hate to say this,

looked like a long cylindrical object.

- I'm not even upset when it comes to the naysayers,

the skeptics, the debunkers.

I think it's important that we have dissent,

we have a lot of different voices out there.

I mean, honestly, it appears to me

to be like a mental illness,

where your presented information such as witness testimony.

- Others have reached out to me to share their experiences

both on the military side,

as well as the commercial aviation side.

- To exclude that just to come to the conclusion

you want to, but ultimately the truth has a way

of just punching through that.

It just takes time.

Whatever Alien that got in the closet,

do you think the government is that competent

that they could actually keep such a secret?

If we had an alien invasion,

more than the US government would know about it,

we would know about it. - Right.

We with cameras and smartphones.

- Yeah.

We are crowdsourcing an alien invasion of Earth,

because everybody has a camera.

Well, it's moving.

It's fucking ridiculous.

Look at the way it's moving.

- So this is part of the mystery,

that the pictures have not been better over the years.

Even with all the advanced technology we have,

and even the videos that came out

with the 2017 "New York Times" article,

were not crystal clear closeup videos.

There's a whole fleet of 'em, look on the ASA.

My gosh.

- So I guess the good news maybe

is that these are not extraterrestrial things

that we have recorded flying around.

It also always seems like these videos they release

of these UAPs were shot on like a baked potato.

Like, I'm confused as to why the quality

of these images aren't better yet.

- There's something about this phenomenon

that seems to frustrate good measurement

and good photography and good imaging.

I don't know why, but it is not something that's an accident

that, oh, you know, everybody failed

to capture this proper image.

It is a hallmark of the phenomenon that the pictures

don't really do justice to what people say they've seen.

Are you serious?

Oh wow, another one, a fourth one.

Wow.

- One of the things I hear all the time

is that there's a lack of evidence.

You've got this phenomenon

that is entering into our digital age,

it's entering into an age of social media,

into higher and higher quality imagery and video.

You would expect that we'd be getting

better video and photographic evidence of this,

as our ability to record stuff increases.

There is always, of course, the idea

that whatever this is is more intelligent than us,

and is very capable of understanding,

if it wants to remain secret, what that takes.

Yo, what is that?

Whoa, oh shit,

what the fuck was that?

- We are in Mexico City, excited to testify later today.

Got in late last night, hearing's today at four.

So pretty, pretty exciting.

Glad we're able to come in and have this conversation.

I never thought I'd be in Mexico City talking about this.

I certainly didn't think I would be traveling

around the world, frankly to discuss this topic,

but here we are.

Welcome to "Merged," I'm Ryan Graves.

Today I'm joined by Sinziana, who has a background

in theoretical physics, and we'll be discussing the science

behind UAP and what comes next.

Sinziana, thank you for joining me.

Lieutenant Ryan Graves represents

hundreds and hundreds of pilots that are having

firsthand direct experiences,

where they are seeing UFOs every day.

- In 2014, I was an F-18 Foxtrot pilot

in the Navy fighter attack Squadron 11, the Red Rippers.

UAP are in our airspace, but they're grossly under-reported.

- Ryan Graves a fascinating person,

he's a very brave person.

He was one of the first people to speak out

about his anomalous experiences and his encounters

with UAP as a fighter pilot while he was still enlisted.

Ryan is the perfect person to be talking about

air safety issues with regard to UAP.

- I have been reaching out to pilots globally.

I've spoken to pilots in Central America,

South America, Europe, Middle East, Eastern Asia, Australia.

These pilots are seeing the same things that are being seen

off the Eastern seaboard, off the Western seaboard.

Recognizing the need for action and answers,

I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace.

- This is an aspect of the UFO phenomenon

that really caught people's attention,

because if our pilots are in danger,

if our pilots are having these near misses,

then that's something we have to take really seriously.

I received an invitation

from Congressman Luna's office in Mexico City,

and that purpose was to bring together various pilots

to put recommendations forward

for how reporting of this should proceed.

And to encourage the Mexican Congress to be able

to push forward and recognition of this

as an aviation safety issue.

- Every country has sightings.

- This is something that is global,

it permeates every part of society all around the world.

Bam, what is that?

Anybody tell me what that is?

Individuals are having these close encounters,

so the idea that we could do something like this,

hopefully it gives permission, it inspires other countries

to do the same, and we're starting to see that.

- My expectations for this hearing is simply

to be able to go in, talk about my experiences,

share the lessons learned

that we've had in the United States,

and to bring awareness to what the pilots are going through.

I could see this being a failure if it is dramaticized

or overindulged on the things

that we don't have data to support.

This needs to be a very data focused conversation

and discussion, and if the conversation delves

into speculation, I believe that could be a problem.

- This is important, this is another country

taking the initiative and bringing people together

in a professional setting and talking about the UFO problem.

- The UAP are plenty, are real, observed,

and not committed by credible sources,

yet we know very little about them.

Thanks to efforts like today,

we are starting to see that change.

- You had good people talk and that spread the information.

Then there was this moment,

and you saw this unveiling.

- That, you know, that was an unfortunate development.

- If you even have a basic understanding of anatomy,

it's very clear that these

are not real individuals.

What's your thoughts?

- I'm gonna, I don't know, it's all, like I said,

I'm still processing it bit, but,

yeah, maybe we can, I'll circle back

on that one at some point.

To surprise the attendees with something

that has not been scientifically substantiated in any way,

for me, it was almost like I was being pranked in a sense.

Just kind of disbelief, I had no indication

that that would be brought out in the hearing at that level.

And so for me, it was a bit of shock and disbelief

and just disappointment all happening at once.

- My honest reaction to the alien corpses,

the alleged alien corpses, total bullshit.

I'm not saying that we don't have biologics,

that we don't have bodies, pilots from these craft.

I know that to be true, but this was just over the top.

It kind of felt like, here we go, here comes the circus.

- Aliens have landed in Mexico.

- And I'm out again.

- If you've grown up watching movies like "ET",

these corpses may look very familiar to you.

Yeah, it looks like "ET," you're right,

The alleged alien corpses were found in Peru.

- I refuse to believe that, A, Steven Spielberg

was so close in casting "ET."

But also, I am not fear in alien invasion

if they are yay high.

- Here we are.

- Oh, I love this.

Two of 'em? - There was two of 'em.

So always need a spare?

- Yeah, yeah.

- Did we procreate with these things?

Oh, you're saying back in the day,

somebody boinked an alien, slapping cheeks?

Oh, smacking alien cheeks, you're saying?

They've been shown two desiccated bodies.

They look like me when I'm hungover.

Just like that.

They just detracted from the important message

that we were looking to accomplish in Mexico.

There wasn't much talk of the potential forward momentum

on aviation reporting for UAP in Mexico,

and that really got drowned out.

So for me, that was disappointing.

I don't wanna do it in front of the bodies.

- Okay - For the interview.

So you can do it somewhere else, or you can not do it.

- Whatever you want. - Okay.

- So you don't want it? - No.

- Okay, you want to do it with him, just with him?

- Wherever, I can do it with all the media,

but I don't wanna do it in front of the bodies.

- Okay.

- I'll do it somewhere else.

I will change this, okay? - But I don't wanna do that.

- Just gimme one second please.

- Okay.

- You know, it all comes down

to having genuine data that can be fact checked

and confirmed by an outside community.

And, you know, there was a claim that these were studied

by scientists and this and that.

I've not seen any evidence that any of this information

was peer reviewed in the least.

- I had access to that data two years ago.

They came to me and asked for my help,

and I was intrigued.

I think unfortunately the way that it was done

does not give one the opportunity

to go and check the methods.

They did it wrong, unfortunately,

with the best intention, but they did it wrong.

- None of the bones articulate with one another,

they're a mishmash of different human bones

from different parts of the body

that are all stuck together.

And quite unfortunately, they're the result of grave robbers

going into ancient burial sites,

and taking the bones of children to construct these things

and sell them and to have them paraded around

to a global audience.

- Did you see the bodies?

That was... I did, I did.

I certainly did.

I mean...

- If you know someone who wants to investigate,

just call me, okay?

- The way that that hearing was handled,

for me, was a step backwards because it's a conversation

where if you start mixing the incredulous

and the unsubstantiated with real pragmatic concerns,

that pilots and professionals are dealing with,

it minimizes that safety aspect and it draws the attention

to the more inflammatory side.

So for me, that's why it's a step backward,

and it's those type of actions that I think

kind of can slow down that global uptake

of reporting on this topic.

And that's for me why I was disappointed.

- The UFO community is absolutely its worst enemy,

and partly because I think a lot of people want to believe,

and they'll sometimes look past clearly manipulated

documents, films, even fake alien bodies

simply to perpetuate that belief system.

This subject has always been three steps forward,

500 steps back.

You have a fucking fake little Mexican UFO baby.

They're doubling down.

- No, they're not.

Because I want to believe in it so bad, that's the problem,

'cause it's so fun, you know?

The idea of spaceships coming here from another galaxy.

- It takes away from legitimate science that's being done

with regard to studying this phenomenon.

But the more we talk about this,

it's important to debate these things.

It's important to call BS on a hoax

and talk about why it's a hoax,

and how do we move past this?

- But maybe a better way to look at it is in a more

positive sense of, is to say, that's not how it's done.

So should anything else come along to be studied,

let's do it the right way.

- The UFO subject has always been

a magnet for sensationalist claims.

There are things going on that actually are really bizarre.

And if you're a researcher or just a serious student

of this, you're often in the position

of walking a very fine line.

You're going into the depths of the weird,

face it, get used to it, it's the reality.

- It's been a debate for decades.

Are aliens out there?

And have they ever made contact with us?

- People are often very reluctant

to talk about their anomalus experiences.

Oh, what is it?

Be careful, be careful. What is that?

Oh, what the ♪♪♪♪?

- However, partially due to the work of Leslie Kane

and Ralph Blumenthal with that amazing bombshell front page

"New York Times" article back in 2017,

we're walking into a new chapter.

And then with these recent UAP hearings,

we find ourselves in even another chapter.

- The stigma, the ridicule, it's a real problem,

but it's not a problem we can't overcome

because the conversation is elevating.

- I see a huge uptick in people that have been approaching

the community privately, The Experiencer Group,

folks that feel more comfortable at least wanting to know

other people that have been in their situation.

And then another level of people that are more willing

to talk about this publicly, like myself.

- Whoa, whoa, - It's hauling ass.

Wow, it's gotta be a drone or something.

That's either a drone or a UFO.

Did you see how it moved? That was incredible.

- An experiencer is anybody

that has had anomalous experiences of any and all kinds.

That could be UAP encounters,

encounters with non-human entities.

And that is kind of hard for the general public

to often wrap their head around.

- The family says something crashed into their backyard,

prompting them to call 911,

saying they saw creatures walking around.

- There is a popular conception that people

that have anomalous encounters are kooks,

and that couldn't be further from the truth.

What I found is that we have people

that have had high level positions

in Fortune 500 companies, doctors, lawyers.

These are people that have a lot on the line

in terms of their profession, in terms of their families,

and often they can't talk about these situations

that have happened with them.

- But the stigma comes in because people don't wanna handle

that this is something real

that people have seen.

So you immediately, when you poke your head up

and people say, "Okay, this is what I saw,"

they're demoralized almost instantaneously.

- One of the most commonly reported types

is what's known as the gray alien.

They have large expanded crania, large eyes,

they have small reduced faces, slim bodies.

They walk upright, they can breathe our air.

- There's kind of two classes of grays

that are often described.

There's one that's shorter, usually between about

three and a half and four and a half feet tall.

And there's another class of grays that are taller,

between five and even six and a half feet tall.

And interestingly, the smaller grays

seem to be doing more mundane tasks,

and the taller grays seem to be having

more supervisorial positions.

Some people speculate that the smaller grays are some form

of artificial intelligence, that they might be some form

of biological drone almost akin to a robot.

There was a situation when I was about nine or 10 years old,

where I fell asleep and I woke up,

and passed the foot of my bed,

there were two beings that matched the description

of the small gray non-human beings.

And I feel sometimes reluctant to talk about it

because I know the stigma attached to this.

One of them seems to be floating above the floor somehow.

Initially, I actually wasn't scared,

it was like a sense of wonder, but that, you know,

that feeling was only a couple seconds.

Very quickly, almost at once, the being

off the foot of my bed started moving towards me.

And as it started moving towards me,

the other being raised its arm

that had this wand in its hand towards me.

And at that point I was terrified,

and I don't remember what happened after that.

- Let's make no mistake here,

many, many, many people

have stated that they've had such experiences.

Question is, if something of that kind of a magnitude

happens to you, who do you tell?

You tell the police, do you tell some scientists,

or do you tell your brothers and sisters

or your parents or your kids, your wife, your husband?

It's very difficult for people to talk about this.

- This, I have a hard time with this.

Why?

Because I don't wanna believe it. I really don't.

Why?

Because I'm thinking, I wouldn't mind it happening to me.

- I mean, it's totally made me question what life's about.

And it's stirred my life up a lot.

- One thing you find across the board,

a remarkable level of consistency

in what people have reported with these experiences.

- What did they look like?

- I guess it's a pretty typical description nowadays.

Very large eyes, hairless.

- Did they feel like they were a living creature,

or did they feel like they were a robot?

- Well, they were without expression, I'll say that.

- When you really look at the full picture of it,

you see a remarkable cohesiveness

of description and of data.

That tells me that, very likely,

these people are experiencing something real.

- It's been challenging over the years

sharing these situations

with friends, family, and others.

It's a difficult situation because I lost friends.

I've had a lot of challenges in talking with people

about my anomalous experiences.

There have been a lot of situations

that I know of personally where people have been shunned

by their own family groups

because they were thought to be crazy.

There are people that have lost their loved ones,

that have gotten divorced.

There are people that have lost access

to their own children.

And that has even more severe implications,

in that some of these people that lose their families

or have lost their jobs because word got around,

they lost their reputations,

and then some of those people actually lost their lives.

There's a reason why we need to get past this stigma

and why we need to be able to talk about these situations.

- There's a mystery here that's worth solving.

Whether it's everybody is crazy

and there's a mass hallucination,

or that there is something here

that's just beyond our reach,

and do we have then the necessary

scientific talent to address it?

- A pair of Harvard scientists say a massive, fast moving

visitor to our solar system may have been a probe

sent by an advanced alien civilization.

- 'Oumuamua is the first

observed object to come from outside of our solar system.

And get this, once it got here, it behaved in ways

that scientists can't quite explain.

- My name is Avi Loeb, I'm the Director of the Institute

for Theory and Computation at Harvard University.

In 2017, there was an object detected

by a telescope in Hawaii called pan stars.

And this object was moving too fast to be bound to the sun.

- 'Oumuamua, is that right?

- Yes, that's the right thing.

- 'Oumuamua, which is an object that we detected in space

that you believe could possibly have been extraterrestrial

in origin, meaning from some sort of a civilization?

- Right?

'Oumuamua was detected as a near earth object

the size of a football field.

It became clear that it's most likely flat in its shape,

very unusual for a rock.

Moreover, it was pushed away from the sun

by some mysterious force, which is also unusual for a rock.

That can happen if you have a comet

that sheds mass and evaporates.

And there was no cometary tail around this subject.

- First of all, this is historic, this discovery,

because they've never seen something

that's come from outside of our solar system.

It has a shape that scientists have never seen before,

and at one point it sped up and they couldn't explain why.

So a lot of mysteries, a lot of theories.

One of them now is somebody came by to check us out.

- The question is, who manufactured 'Oumuamua?

The more data we collected about this object,

the more anomalous it was, and it led me to suggest

that maybe it's pushed by reflecting sunlight.

And for that, it had to be very thin, like a sail.

And nature doesn't make thin objects of that type,

and so I suggested maybe it's artificial in origin.

Finding whether we are alone

is one of the most fundamental question.

And unfortunately, the situation is quite polarized

right now because mobs on social media come together

to just attack me personally and in a non-professional way,

and I find that disturbing

because this is the way science should be done.

- Science is always about narrowing the scope

of what the possible answers might be.

The data can provide this,

and then you do successive experiments to narrow the scope

until ET might be somewhere

within the scope of that question.

Avi Loeb did exactly this.

- When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains,

as improbable as it is, must be the truth.

- They will go as far as saying it's insulting to science

to actually suggest this is alien.

As scientists, you provide a theory, you offer evidence.

You don't say, "Well, you can't prove your theory,

so this must be a possibility as well."

And even they're saying it's just click bait.

- Just click bait?

- Nevertheless, you hear others claiming

that it's an embarrassment to science.

This is unfortunate because this is the way for us

to gain new knowledge, we have to be open-minded.

- We need scientists on this.

Science used to be a realm

where you're exploring the unknown.

That was the whole point, if it's unknown, let's look at it.

But with this topic, you see a resistance to that.

- This is really disappointing to me that people,

instead of being inspired, are trying to step

on every flower that rises above the grass level.

- Jackie Faherty is an astrophysicist

at the American Museum of Natural History.

She says 'Oumuamua did not give off any signals,

suggesting it was a spacecraft.

If you say that the top 10 lists of explanations

does not include alien probe, what is on that list?

It's a comet.

- Or an asteroid.

- Or an asteroid, or a rock.

- So then where is alien civilization

on the list of explanations?

- Well, I don't know, real low.

Real low, real, real low.

- Now, even scientists, other scientists

in his discipline came out and said,

"Oh, it couldn't possibly be," or, you know,

"Avi's gone off the ranch."

No, he hadn't, he's just said

that it's within the scope of possible answers.

- It is absolutely true to say that the scientific community

has been not just skeptical

of UFOs for generations,

but I would say fairly hostile, and an aversion.

And more than an aversion, a fear,

a genuine deep-seated fear of being tainted by this subject.

- When you get scientists with that level of hubris,

it's really hard to backtrack from there

and start considering other possibilities.

Now, this thing's gotta be like a ship, right?

That looks too much like a spaceship.

- So, so the reason why it's probably not aliens

is its trajectory around the sun

was completely determined by gravitational forces.

- How do you know?

- Because we know, we calculate this.

- Neil deGrasse Tyson needs to grow up.

I think Neil deGrasse Tyson is jealous,

you can publish that.

He's acting more like an astrologer than an astronomer,

he's acting more like a priest.

Look at the people who are the most against it,

they're actually not practicing scientists,

they're opinion scientists.

When's the last time any of these people have actually

been anywhere near a laboratory,

or near a measurement device?

- The signal we get from it is elongated,

but it's probably a rubble pile stretched into that shape.

Because you don't get that by nature, you don't get that.

- Yeah, that's why it's manmade.

- Alien-made. - Alien-made.

- You want that to be aliens?

Just fess up, you want that to be aliens?

- Of course, I want that

to be aliens. - Okay.

- These people should be forced to give back their PhDs.

If you're not going to honor your oath

of how you're gonna address and approach data

and openness to ideas,

and you're gonna use ridicule, you've lost.

- If this were aliens, - Yeah.

- In some kind of advanced ship, it would be maneuvering,

because a tennis ball would have that trajectory

moving at that speed, that's all.

- Is there any chance that's a tennis ball?

- No.

- Since then, of course,

the scrutiny became even bigger.

In the months and years that followed,

the pushback intensified.

The problem is that scientists are not seeking evidence,

they are not really studying

those objects that look anomalous.

'Oumuamua could not have been made by us

because it was passing near us just for a few months

very quickly, faster than any rocket that we can launch.

That's why we couldn't really chase it when it was receding

away from us, and it came from outside the solar system.

So, you know, I just do one plus one equal two.

I say, okay, it looks very peculiar,

maybe it belongs to another civilization.

I attended a colloquium about 'Oumuamua

at Harvard University, and I left the room

after it was over with a colleague of mine

that worked on space rocks for decades.

That colleague said, "'Oumuamua is so weird,

I wish it never existed."

To me, that's exactly the opposite of the way scientists

should approach anomalous data.

It should be an exciting opportunity to learn something new,

it should be inspiring.

That should be a situation that we aspire to have.

So I actually see it as a blessing, you know?

- I can't imagine why anybody would be upset that it exists.

Like, I wish it didn't exist, that's kind of hilarious.

- Because it takes you away

from your comfort zone, you know?

There are lots of people who imagine that we are unique

and special, obviously that flatters our ego.

It's really important to recognize that the earth

is not at the center of the world.

So reality puts constraints on our imagination,

but we need to adapt to that and accept the verdict

of experimental data, evidence,

rather than have an opinion to start with.

And unfortunately, within the public,

lots of people have opinions.

- Here to introduce itself to all of us,

interstellar asteroid, 'Oumuamua.

- Ah, hi guys.

I'm 'Oumuamua, I'm just visiting your solar system.

You know, I'm traveling, I'm on holiday.

- And in the scientific community, you have exactly

the same situation where scientists prefer

to argue that we are alone.

So that is the main damage that I see

to innovation in science.

And, of course, it suppresses our ability

to gain new knowledge about our cosmic neighborhood.

- We at NASA are acutely aware

of the considerable public interest in UAP.

However, it's critical to understand any form of harassment

towards our panelists only serves to detract

from the scientific process,

which requires an environment of respect and openness.

- It is really disheartening to hear of the harassment

that our panelists have faced online,

all because they're studying this topic.

- Scientists, they've got reputations to protect.

They've got their own intellectual turf

that they've taken years and decades

and generations to build,

they're not just gonna give that up.

- It's our job as scientists to investigate

the great unknowns of the universe around us.

By just brushing this aside or saying,

"It's not real, it doesn't exist," or,

"These are unidentified so we can't know what they are,"

does a disservice to humanity.

People who know things,

especially top secret things,

I would say are at risk.

- Oh, fuck yeah, they are.

I wanna know your thoughts on that.

- At being at risk?

- Yeah, - I'm a journalist,

I'm untouchable.

You have an inspiring amount of confidence

that journalists are safe.

One of the US' allies, literally-

- I know.

You seem very confident

that the journalist badge protects you.

- Yeah, I don't know what I'm fucking doing.

I mean, the truth of it, I've been told by a lot of people,

you know, that I respect that I'm in the hall of mirrors,

and watch your fucking back, you know?

I know people have suffered grievous injury

for reporting, I know that.

But, again, I don't know man, I just, I've never...

I can't talk about all that.

I have been threatened before.

I haven been threatened, straight up.

What are they gonna do?

Gimme just a sec, okay?

Man, look, I'm not gonna stop pushing,

that's what's gonna happen, whatever that looks like.

You know, it's not just like we have a right

to know this stuff, we have a need to know it.

Whatever that truth is, and I'm not claiming to know it,

but I do know that I feel a sense of duty to find out.

And I'm just gonna keep pushing, I'm gonna fight

until the wheels fall off, whatever that means.

One step, one day at a time.

So what do I want to happen?

I want the truth,

I'm going to fight until the wheels fall off.

- As far as you and George just doing your job,

there's plenty of people in prison

that were just doing their jobs.

- Bob Lazar is a renegade,

one of the original whistleblowers.

- Just be careful, don't step on the wrong toes.

- A genuine disclosure of the UAP UFO subject will show,

potentially at the deepest levels,

a society that has lived a foundational lie

for an entire human lifetime.

- From a newsman's perspective,

it would be the biggest story in history,

the biggest story, period.

- Got a still image of something called the Chandelier UAP,

does that ring a bell to you?

It does.

- I've come across a number of direct witnesses

who have convinced me that there are,

brace yourself, human looking beings,

but they're not quite like us, they're here.

- This is potentially world conquering information,

technology that can change the course of mankind.

But you could at least admit the one thing,

that there is another civilization visiting us.

At least come to grips with that.

- If it comes out what it is,

it could be a really dark moment for humanity.