All language subtitles for The.Lesson.is.Murder.S01E03.720p.WEB.h264-ETHEL

I was being
given an opportunity

to inflict this pain
that they wanted.

It was pleasure for them.

It seemed that there was
some sort of rage there.

It was not an
instantaneous death.

It was a pretty
horrible way to die.

It was
a brutal scene.

It´s very much
like she´s the ringleader.

The rest of the group was
manipulated into this.

Luckily, I was able to secure
an interview with Ivié.

All right, guys, so obviously,

we´ve been working
this case for...

I´m Bryanna Fox.

I´m a psychological
criminologist

and a former FBI special agent.

I study violent
offenders to evaluate

their personality traits
and patterns of behavior.

And I develop
psychological profiles

to help law enforcement
catch dangerous criminals.

As a former FBI special agent,

I learn techniques to
interrogate and analyze

some of the nation´s most
violent serial offenders.

Now, I´m a professor at the
University of South Florida,

where I´m training the next
generation of criminologists.

Together with a team of
my top graduate students,

we are reinvestigating violent
crimes in order to learn

how to probe the mind of
a convicted murderer...

I became a severe drug
addict. I became a dominatrix.

To understand why
did this killer kill?

I started something
that I couldn´t stop.

My brother, Jamie, was a very,
very good-natured person.

He had a great-big heart.

He had a lot of charisma

and women would just,
like, flock around him.

He started a sports bar
in Fort Lee. I don´t know.

Everybody kind of
fell in love with him

because he had such
a great personality.

He was married in the late ´80s,

but his marriage
didn´t last that long.

And I think it was a great
disappointment in his life.

I think he was very
depressed about it,

and I think he was very
vulnerable at that time.

He wasn´t attracting bad people

until the night he went
into the China Club.

De Molina was there
with a group of friends.

That´s how he started a
relationship with her.

And he just fell into the trap.

It´s something that just
leaves such a scar...

The whole sequence of events.

It was horrible.

One night
in New York City,

Jamie Polites met
Ivié De Molina,

and she knew that
he owned a bar.

Unfortunately, that
night, August 4th,

he got a call at the
bar, and it was Ivié.

And she said, you know,
do you want to meet up?

And he said, "Yeah, sure."

And Ivié said, "Well, meet
me at your apartment."

Ivié De Molina and her
friend, Jamie Farthing,

come to the door, he opens it,

and who does he meet but
Thomas Christopher James,

Efrain Papaleo, and
Benigno Rosario.

Benigno Rosario and
Thomas Christopher James

have guns.

They pull them out.

Ivié De Molina directs
them to tie him up

and to bring him upstairs.

Ivié De Molina is telling
Thomas Christopher James

in front of Jamie Polites
that, "You´re going to

have to kill him because
he knows my true name."

They hogtie him.

Thomas gets a lamp wire from one
of the lamps in the apartment,

ties it around
Jamie Polites´ neck,

and then loops it
over the doorknob

and then pushed down on him
so that they strangled him.

And this is all in Ivié
De Molina´s presence.

You know, it wasn´t an
instantaneous death.

It was a pretty
horrible way to die.

They took money...
I believe $5,000.

And once he was dead,

they packed up, and
they left the apartment.

This gang
of five included

18-year-old Jamie Farthing,

17-year-old Benigno Rosario,

and 19-year-old Efrain Papaleo.

The executioner was 21-year-old
Thomas Christopher James.

He was the boyfriend
of the ringleader,

27-year-old Evelyn Molina,
a.k.a. Ivié De Molina.

She had this gang.

I think a newspaper called
it The Poison Ivié Gang.

She was the leader of this gang.

She was the impetus
behind these crimes.

It was her idea. It
was her idea to rob.

It was her idea to kill.

Why did Ivié De Molina
want Jaime Polites dead?

And how did she convince
four other people to rob

and murder for her?

Who is Ivié De Molina?

Research and data on violent
female offenders is so rare

because they are so rare.

Most women in the research
tend to have more empathy,

tend to be more
compassionate towards others.

That same characteristic is
what usually protects them

from becoming violent offenders
or even serial killers.

So if we want to extrapolate

any type of scientific
data from them,

we have to be able to
get access from prisons

and conduct interviews.

There´s a lot of interesting
parts of this case.

I think the most interesting is
that a woman led these robberies

and what ended up in murder.

You know, Ivié said,
"You have to kill him,

you have to kill him,"
and they talk about

how they´re going to
do it in front of him

while he´s hogtied and unable
to move or do anything.

And since he was hogtied,
he couldn´t untie himself,

he couldn´t wriggle out of it,

and he ultimately strangled
on his own body weight.

She is a violent female offender

who´s leading a
group of other people

and orchestrating it.

I can´t think of one other
case that´s similar to this.

We really have to learn a
lot more about what happened

and who she was and then almost
back into it in that way.

A little over four days
after Jamie Polites´ murder,

60 miles away in New York
State, on Long Island,

the Suffolk County
Police Department

received an alarming call.

The daughter of Joseph Fiammetta

had been calling her father,
got no answer, was concerned.

And she went over to the house,

let herself in with
the key she had...

and found her father dead
up in... near his bedroom.

A number of things were
stolen from the house.

His phone was missing.

He had a Rolex watch that was
missing, a bunch of jewelry.

He suffered some
trauma to his head.

He had stab wounds to
his neck and his chest.

His legs were still
taped with duct tape,

and there was evidence that he
had duct tape around his hands.

You could assume that there
was some sort of rage there.

He was brutally
stabbed and beaten.

It was very violent.

I´m sure it was very horrifying
for his daughter to see this.

She was an 18-year-old girl.

It was a brutal scene.

At first, there was
no obvious connection

between two killings
of different men

in different states.

But then police realized
that both victims planned

to see the same sex worker on
the night of their murders.

Her name was Ivié,

and the NYPD was hunting her
for a spree of robberies.

They were staying
at the Iroquois Hotel

near Central Park, but
when they decided to leave,

they decided to rob the hotel.

They were arrested in an
airport motel near LaGuardia.

Joe Fiammetta´s cell
phone had been recovered

with a bunch of other
loot from our robbery.

They held on to all this stuff,
so that´s what got them caught.

Ivié De Molina has used
several names over the years...

Evelyn, her birth name, then
Ivie in her early to late 20s.

Now she calls herself Ivié.

According to the FBI definition,

a serial killing is
two or more murders

with a cooling off
period in between.

They had time to
go home, go to bed,

drive to a different state.

They had time to think
about what they did,

and the fact that they
chose to do it again

qualifies as a serial killing.

It´s a woman.

She was involved in
multiple murders.

She was the leader of a group.

She also crossed state lines.

This involved robberies.

It involved some type
of sexual interaction.

All of these things
in one snapshot

would be unusual
and complicated,

but when you pile
them all together

and then you try to say, "Well,
what´s the profile for that?"

that would be like having six
rare diseases all at once.

It´s really difficult to get
your hands on really good data.

But really, my goal
is to produce research

to help reform the
criminal-justice system

and try to solve this
data issue that we have.

Case in point... The
original case files

from New York and New Jersey
are not fully available.

So we´re cobbling together
news reports from 1994.

So, you know, looking in
these newspaper articles,

you know, they really
characterize Ivié

as the ringleader, right?

So it says here, you know, how
she recruited Jamie Farthing.

"De Molina was filling
the younger girl´s head

with promises of riches
if she would only travel

with her and her
boyfriend to New York,

where they would rip off a
few men that De Molina knew."

According to
reporting at the time,

Jamie Farthing was fresh out
of high school and homeless.

Ivié recruited her to pose
as a fellow prostitute

for a crime spree that she
promised would be foolproof.

I was in the
Navy for about eight years.

So what I bring to
the table is, I think,

maybe a fresh set of eyes.

I think I am a
natural-born leader.

I like to take control.

Right, so it´s very much
like she´s the ringleader.

The rest of the group was
manipulated into this.

Currently, she is in New York.

But the kicker is that she then
has to go back to New Jersey

because she has
consecutive sentences.

She is trying to get
that consecutive sentence

changed to concurrent.

That would mean that the
time she served in New York

would also count for New Jersey.

And basically, it means
she´s released earlier.

We also have some accounts
from Ivié herself.

So this is something
that she wrote

and "Harper´s
Bazaar" published it.

She is self-identifying

as, like, a recovered
harmed person.

She talks a little bit
about her childhood.

She talks about the psychology
and trauma she went through.

You know, I think we have
another data point here

that deserves looking at.

And it´s this HLN
interview with Ivié.

My former trade as a dominatrix,

I did have clients
into different things.

Some were a little more
abusive than others.

Still, things got a
little out of hand.

On my 28th birthday, I got
arrested for involvement

in the murder of two men.

Phrases like "a
little out of hand."

And her "involvement
in the murder"

are rhetorical attempts

to minimize her role
in these crimes.

In this 2017 video,
Ivié is saying goodbye

to a fellow inmate
who´s being released.

Of course I am.

My gosh.

Okay. All right.

She is very emotional.

She feels things. She
smiles. She cries.

She doesn´t have
this flat affect

that we commonly see
with psychopaths.

But she didn´t have that
same level of empathy,

seemingly, when she was the
person on the other side

and doing the killing.

So what gives?

Crying for a friend
and murderous rage

aren´t exactly characteristics
that go together.

So I guess my biggest thing is
what if she´s all these things?

Like, what if she´s

everything that we
could imagine and more?

Questions
have to be asked.

I´m a big fan of you
have to know your past

in order to know the present
and in order to not repeat

in the future, so I
ask a lot of questions.

So are you thinking she
could be that manipulative?

I do believe that she
could still be manipulative

because if you were that
strong to take people in there

and you´re this strong to
get people to believe you

to even have someone
from CNN interview you,

I mean, that´s more
than enough proof that,

hey, you have, like,
a silver tongue.

She´s really public.

Like, I mean, she´s
putting a lot out there.

I mean, like, what
are you guys... why?

Why do we think
this is happening?

To get her sentence shortened.

Luckily, I was able to secure
an interview with Ivié.

Given the complexities
of this case and her,

I really do need to
understand who this person is,

why she did this, and
develop profile of her.

But that won´t be enough.
We need more data.

So I would be very grateful
if you guys would be willing

to go and conduct
some interviews, too.

What was the motivation,
and understanding more

about the victimology is,
of course, critical to that.

How and why did she put
these events in motion?

We start with the first
murder of Jamie Polites.

Jackie and I meet with one
of the lead investigators,

Detective Frank Kelaher.

She had
a list of marks,

and she was going down this list

to lure these people into
a robbery and homicide.

Now, I know, in this case,
the one that you worked,

with Jamie Polites,
he was murdered.

I knew him from my
high-school days.

And he was a very warm-hearted,
very giving individual.

We believe, under the
instruction of Ivié,

he was hung from a doorknob.

I think it was sadistic.

I think she was the,
"I´ll show him."

I think that´s the
mentality she had.

That was her motivating
factor. She wanted the power.

This wasn´t just, "Get rich."

This was, "Let´s
kill and get rich."

We were lucky to stop
this in its tracks

because who knows how many
more on that list she had,

and if that kept
going, she´d find more.

Over a month after
murdering both men,

Ivié and her crew
were off the streets.

To learn more about what
happened to Joe Fiammetta,

Vanessa joins me for
my next interview.

My research
lies with victimology.

Growing up, I lived in
not a great part of Miami,

so I got to see a wide variety
of victimization experiences.

Detective Pat Albergo
questioned Ivié in prison.

The evidence we had
against her was overwhelming.

And we just said, "Want
to give us your story?

Tell us, you know, what
happened," and she agreed.

And from that point on,
she was very cooperative

and told us the story of what
happened with Joseph Fiammetta.

He was contacted by Ivié that
she wanted to come out and party

with a couple of
girlfriends she had.

They arrived at his house in
the early morning hours...

Ivié, Thomas Christopher James,

Jamie Farthing, and Ivié´s
half brother, Benigno Rosario.

Fiammetta let them in the house.

Christopher James
and Benigno Rosario

then pulled out guns,
and they tied him up,

brought him upstairs, put
a pillow over his head,

and began to ransack the house.

They went up to
silence Fiammetta...

Make sure he didn´t scream and
yell as they were driving away

or get to call the police.

Benigno Rosario hit him in
the head with the rifle butt,

but it didn´t knock him out.

That´s why he got the
blunt-force trauma to his head.

He panicked and started
yelling and screaming

and ripped the tape
from his wrists.

Thomas Christopher
James had a knife...

stabbed him in the neck and
stabbed him in the chest

until he stopped moving,
and then they left.

Ivié said she was present
when Christopher James

was struggling with
him and stabbed him.

And what was her demeanor like
while you were interviewing?

She didn´t offer any excuses.

She just thought it was
something that had to be done.

If certain parts of her
past led up to those moments

and those acts of murder,

do you think that should
be taken into consideration

moving forward with her case?

No, I do not, because
that´s just an excuse.

I mean, she made a choice
to do what she did.

She didn´t exhibit
one bit of remorse.

Did she ever give you a reason

for why she committed
these crimes?

The money.

They were partying.
It was a spree.

They were having a good time.

I mean, there were photos of
them with the cash laid out

and money.

It was a good, old
time, you know,

that they were
having, doing this.

Law enforcement´s
job is to solve the crime.

Their job is not
necessarily to understand

the background of the offender.

They have so many cases,
they just need evidence.

Evidence, probable
cause, conviction.

My job is to try to understand
the rest of the puzzle.

Why do we need a profile

if we already have
the case solved?

The answer is there´s still
so many missing pieces...

Why these people would have
committed these crimes,

what led up to this, you know,

in terms of their
background and childhood?

If we don´t have all
of that information,

we´re basically settling for
the puzzle being half complete.

To better evaluate and develop
Ivié´s highly unusual profile,

I need to find out what turned
her into a serial killer.

And to do that, I´ve got
to investigate her past.

I met "Evie" when I
was four years old,

when she started dating my dad.

My dad introduced her as
"Evelyn," and me being 4,

that was the best that I could
do at that particular time.

So do you
have any early memories

of your relationship with her?

My dad and my mom separated,
and so she sort of came in

and was the actual definition
of, like, a breath of fresh air.

She was always prim and proper

from the moment
that I-I met her,

always dressed appropriately,
always a smile on her face.

She wouldn´t leave the house
without a designer outfit on,

latest trend.

She reminded me of who
I wanted to be as I...

As I grew up.

It seems like Ivié was like a
huge role model in your life,

like a... like, literally
a mother figure.

She really was.

Sometimes people leave
a huge impression on you

just by the way
they make you feel.

She definitely filled
that role as Mom.

So what type of things
would you, like,

usually do with Ivié?

She was fun. Yeah?

She was beyond fun.

We could do all the things,

except for I could
never get dirty.

I could never have dirty hands.
I couldn´t have a dirty face.

I would ask to go to the park,
and the answer would always...

"We could go, but let´s
go and do this instead."

So...

Shopping was probably about
a good 60% of our time.

Do you remember
maybe, like, though,

your last memory of
them right before she...

You know, they
kind of split off?

I get a little emotional
thinking about that

because we were getting ready

for me to go to my grandma´s
house that weekend,

and my dad and Ivié
had an argument.

They were arguing. You
can tell it was upsetting.

And then she came into my room.

At this particular morning,
what was abnormal about it

was that she was
packing my suitcase

and she was putting
not my clothes,

but the things that me and
her purchased together,

which is really weird.

But, like, I had my
necklace that she gave me

that she put on me.

And this is a necklace I would
only wear to, like, picture day.

She was frantic and
somber at the same time,

like she would stop
and pick up something

and start to cry and
then shake her head

and then just put
it in the suitcase.

It was like that was the last
time that we saw each other.

I think that, in that
moment, she had to let go

maybe of the one relationship
that was... pure?

Or one relationship
that was not tainted.

What would you like the
world to know about Ivié?

The positive thing.

That she was a human being

and she loved

and was capable of loving...

Someone that´s capable of more

when they´re... when they
are surrounded with those...

With those pushes and those
shoves in the right direction.

At first glance,
Victoria´s experience of Ivié

as a charming maternal
figure contradicts

what we´d expect
of a serial killer.

But does it?

Victoria´s father,
Victor Clavizzao

was in a serious relationship
with Ivié for over three years,

right before her crimes began.

According to Victor,
they met in 1985

while working at a
college recruitment office

that paid by commission.

The owner of the company...
He said, "Listen,

I´ve just interviewed a
young girl I´m gonna hire.

I want you to train her, right?
Keep your hands off of her."

But when she came into the room,
I thought he was making it up.

I thought he was,
like, gagging me.

She was so beautiful, right
off the cover of "Vogue."

Just absolutely gorgeous,
and so I was responsible

for training her?

And as we trained, not only
did I find her beautiful,

I also found her intelligent.

So that was, like,
super attractive.

Can you give us some examples
about, like, some of her...

Some of the... you know, what
you found intelligent about her?

Well, her relationship
with my daughter, Victoria,

was remarkable.

Not only did she like
her, she loved her.

She cared for her.
She educated her.

Victoria was her daughter,

and I know Victoria felt
that way about her, 100%.

You know, we were, most of
the time, on the same page,

especially when
it comes to work,

and she was serious
about it, too.

You want to get bodies
into the school,

plain and simple, right?
That´s where the money´s at.

But you can run out
of bodies.

And she came to me one day,
and she says, "You know what?

We should go down to
the welfare centers."

And so literally, we go from
maybe 10, 15 bodies a month

to hundreds, bro,

because there´s a lot
of bodies on welfare...

Mostly young women,
and she got them all.

I have to... I
have to share this.

To not only... not only get
these students into school,

but she helped them find jobs
while they were in school.

Really? Right.

Compassionate behavior,
like caring for a child

and helping those on
welfare get an education

hardly seems characteristic
of a burgeoning serial killer.

But it´s also clear there´s
self-interest running

at the heart of Ivié´s work.

So where does she fall?

These opposing character
traits further expose

her unusual nature.

You guys were really making six
figures at that point in time.

Spoiled rotten. The
money was really good.

I mean, we were able to drive
by limousine into Manhattan

from Queens every
day, back and forth.

Macy´s had a personal
shopper for her.

But Ivié´s newfound
wealth and glamorous lifestyle

belied a dark secret.

Did she ever confide in you,

like, any... the trauma
that she experienced?

Like, if there was any
abuse, maybe sexually?

Yeah, she told me a
couple times she was raped

and had to deal with it... You
know, sexually abusing her,

you know, constantly,

about, you know, things
that ate her up inside,

made her feel like a...

like an object versus a person.

And I probably responded
to it incorrectly

´cause I´d say, "Hey, let´s
go out and get drunk."

You know what I
mean? And we did.

And then she got into utilizing
that to heal herself...

Alcohol, other things.

How did it start exactly? Wow.

Well, we went to
a buddy´s house,

hanging out with him, and
we were smoking marijuana.

And then he came out with some
coke, and I was like, "Okay."

And so we tried
it. We liked it.

And so, you know, it
just started from then on

and then work started suffering.

Was she not going
to work?

Yeah, we were missing work.

Once you start missing work,
then you start losing income.

Did you begin to argue more

or what went into the
relationship after all that?

I had to go to Manhattan one
time and drag her out of there.

Had to drive into the Bronx one
time and drag her out of there.

Where did you have
to drag her from?

Like, what were these places?

Party places, hangouts,

people´s houses,
getting-high spots.

When I would go find her,

it wasn´t to bring her home
to me because I loved her.

I wanted to bring her home
because it would save her life.

And if you don´t mind,
exactly what year was this?

That was... That was in ´88.

Were you surprised
when you found out

about the sex work
that she was into?

She didn´t do sex work
when she lived with me.

I only found out
about the sex work

at a party that I had
chased her down to.

The guy told me to kick rocks.

He told me to get out of here
and that she was his now.

And so for me, that
was hard to swallow,

but I have some pride, you know?

You know, and I knew,
you know, she was hooked,

he had her, and he
was gonna pimp her,

and there was nothing I can do.

And that´s really the last
time I laid eyes on her,

outside of visiting
her in prison.

Wow.

I am so sorry.

When I went to
see her in prison,

I told her I loved her.

I told her I´d be there for
her if I could, you know?

Wow. Yeah.

So you still have that
love for her today?

Yeah. Not just...
Not just friendship love.

I have a very hard
romantic love for her.

She´s a... She´s a
major part of my life.

She just always will
be. She changed my life.

She bettered my life.
I still care about her.

I´d
like to see her free.

Very much so.

Excuse me.

Yes, sir.

Ivié´s dramatic descent
into drugs and prostitution

seems to contradict the image

of a highly successful
college recruiter.

What made Ivié so susceptible

to this kind of
thrill-seeking behavior?

Xavier and Nate
explore Victor´s perspective

on Ivié´s perplexing
character traits with Jacquie.

We´ve received a
lot of information

that I think will be really
useful to Ivié´s profile.

Victor gave us example
after example of Ivié

being able to just, like, walk
into a room, command the room.

She was convincing hundreds of
young people to go to school.

You know, I told
her one time that,

"You´re a fantastic leader.

Just be careful where
you lead people."

Like, we didn´t even mention
the word, like, "manipulation."

Like, the way that he
was describing her,

it was just, like, her
personality, like, her charm.

Like, it was just... He
defined it as her leadership.

Even with the team
that she was with,

like with the
robberies and stuff,

he wasn´t surprised
that she was the leader

because she still
had that influence.

In this context with Victor,

it´s more like being a
born leader is who she was,

and she had the option to
kind of utilize that role

in a variety of different ways.

You know what this
tells me, though?

The Evelyn that we´ve come to
know through these interviews

is maybe the same
underlying Evelyn or Ivié

that, you know, was able to get
this group of people to do this.

I think that´s something
we might be able to add

to the profile is the
narcissistic tendencies.

She just kind of pushed
Victor off to the side,

and I think Victor
really alluded

to that a couple of
times... That it was like

it´s Ivié´s way or
the highway, right?

I feel like this
interview with Victor

is kind of like that
turning point for us, right?

It´s like the middle ground.

So we have Victoria,
as, you know, Evelyn,

and a wonderful mother,
wonderful person.

We have Victor, as, you
know... You know, "I love her.

She´s commands leadership,
right? She´s charming,

And I also experienced
part of, like,

the beginning of the downfall,"

of what eventually led to us
having to interview detectives

in the last place and
the spring of crimes.

It´s like, it´s a
perfect storyline.

Yeah.

In prison, Ivié De
Molina´s erratic storyline

would take yet another
unexpected turn.

After 19 years behind bars,

in 2014, she married
for the very first time

at the age of 47.

I´m on my way to meet the man
willing to marry Poison Ivy.

What did he see in her?

How did he look beyond her
history as a serial killer

to find someone he thought was
a loving, empathetic spouse?

For the sake of his
family´s privacy,

Ivié´s estranged
husband has asked

that we conceal his identity.

During our discussion, I
refer to him as Jacques.

Thank you, Jacques, for
coming all the way here

to meet with us.

Can you tell me a little
bit about how you met Ivié?

And then how did she respond?

So Ivié has this seemingly
right-hand turn out of nowhere,

where she commits a felony,
is sentenced to prison.

What made that happen?

In many evaluations
of murderers,

there is often a high
prevalence of childhood trauma.

But in the majority of cases,

childhood trauma elevates
empathy later in life.

So what´s the dividing line?

She said, "We have to
get married for that."

There´s a perk for
inmates that are married,

and that´s the freedom
to have real privacy.

Right now, you are inside FRP.
This is Family Reunion Program.

New York is one
of only four states

that allows conjugal visits.

Family members,
including spouses,

are allowed to visit
inmates in private trailers

for up to three days.

The constant theme that
we´re seeing in this case

is Ivié is very successful
at convincing people

to do things that are entirely
against their self-interest.

And whether it´s a
person she meets online

that she wants to marry

or people that are willing
to commit robbery and murder,

we see her getting married to
somebody while she´s in prison

and convincing him
to leave his job

in a very well-paying
and respectable position

to move down and
get citizenship,

all just to help her
and take care of her.

I´m sure, in her eyes,

she doesn´t see any of
this as manipulative.

But the only person whose interests
that it´s good for is hers.

That´s when you start
calling it a pattern

and not just coincidence.

Ivié and Jacques
remain legally married,

but they´ve been
separated since 2018.

Meeting Jacques was an
incredible experience for me.

He was a smart man.
He was very likable.

He wanted to believe
that, you know,

he was willing to do
this on his own accord.

But for those who lack empathy,
relationships typically crumble.

There´s a pattern where we see
some manipulation occurring,

or at least benefiting from
others doing things for her...

Even if the people
were very willing.

Ivié De Molina has agreed
to meet me for an interview.

I want to find out who the real
Ivié is and what she believes

led her down the path
to her criminal behavior

and murder spree.

There are certain things
that we know work,

typically, when we´re
interviewing offenders.

One is it does not work to
be, you know, hard nosed.

A more refined approach to that

is, "How am I going to
bond with this person?

How am I gonna build rapport?

How am I going to show them that

I actually am
listening to them?"

How are you? Good. I´m
Bryanna. You want to come sit down?

Sure. Okay.

So the first thing I
want to help you with

is how to get your
microphone on, okay?

This is just to make
sure we can hear you.

Establishing a connection
is going to be difficult.

New York State is requiring us

to wear masks throughout
the interview,

making it harder than
usual to see from her face

if she´s telling the truth.

It´s down to her eyes alone.

For me, letting her lie or
letting her say things to me

in her way that showcases
her personality,

that was the goal
of my interview.

Going to the person who
has the most reason to lie

and expect them to
tell you the truth

is not the best strategy.

Would you mind just telling
me what that was like,

You know, growing
up in East New York?

I was okay for the most
part... Great grades and stuff.

I ended up going to
Forest Hills High School.

In the 10th grade, I was barred.

I was kicked out for a fight.

I went to go try and get my GED,

and I failed it by one point.

I didn´t want to go back,
so instead I answered an ad

to work as a telemarketer
and just kept going up.

Then I ended up establishing

an entire telemarketing
department.

And then I get a call from
my friend, and he´s like,

"Ivié, I have an
interview for you.

My boss wants to
hire a female broker.

You would be perfect for it."

And I was like, "
my God, yes, of course.

I´ll do it. I´ll do it."

And I went, and I
got the job, and...

he said, "I´ll see
you in a week."

By early April 1993,

I came face to face
with my abuser,

of whom I haven´t
seen in 20 years.

And...

I had these flashes in
my head of him abusing me

as a little girl between
the ages of six and seven.

It was just like a movie scene,

where things just started
flashing in my eyes,

and it was a memory recollection
that I had suppressed.

I guess I was in shock.

Just... I mean, it
changed everything for me.

You know, a week before this,

I was hired to be a stockbroker,
you know, on Wall Street.

That was like, from coming
from Brooklyn, East New York,

I was already legally earning
six figures a year by 21.

Yeah, that changed
my whole life.

We took a cab to a place
that I always go to.

I asked for a Kir Royale.

And some woman was yelling
at the end of the bar,

and I said, "Shut the... "you
know, "Shut... just shut up."

As soon as I got this Kir
Royale champagne flute glass,

I was tapped on the
back of the shoulder,

and when I turned
around, her rock glass

was coming towards my face.

I blocked it, and this
hand went that way.

She got 120-something stitches,

and I got my first
arrest, first offense.

I guess ´cause it was my
first arrest versus offense,

I was sentenced to an
intermittent sentence.

I was, like, a weekend
warrior at Rikers Island,

and my whole life changed
from that moment on.

I became a severe crack
addict in sex trade.

I became a dominatrix.

And yeah, 17 months later,

I was arrested for involvement
in the murder of two men.

In many cases, she tells lies

that are very
adjacent to the truth,

which make it harder to
prove it´s not a lie,

but also makes it easier
for her to believe.

Case in point... Ivié
did in fact murder

Jamie Politesse and Joe
Fiammetta, as she states.

But her claim to have succumbed
to drug addiction and sex work

because of her stint for assault
at Rikers Island in 1993 differs

from Victor´s account
of her downward spiral.

Exactly what year was this?

That was... That was in ´88.

My job as a profiler is
not to necessarily get her

to admit to something.

Even if she is lying,
that is the story.

You are leaving Rikers...

Yes. and you decide not
to become a stockbroker.

And at this point, you know,

what did you choose
to do for a living?

I became a prostitute.

I entered the sex trade

and eventually
became a dominatrix.

That´s how I was
making my money. Yeah.

Her path to this profession
was also erratic.

I didn´t meet my boyfriend
until February ´94

at a billiards place in
New York City somewhere.

I saw him shooting pool,
and I fell in love.

I said, "I´m taking him
back to my hotel room,

and I´m having his baby."

It´s like love at first
sight, and that´s what it was.

According to arrest interview
records and Ivié´s own claim,

the mother of her boyfriend,
Thomas Christopher James,

helped her get into
dominatrix work.

She had tabletop dancing.
She had the mud wrestling.

She had the dungeon house.

The dominance room was... You
know, it had a spin wheel,

where your clients...
You strapped them on,

and... and it´s whipping,
it´s dominatrix stuff.

And can you just tell me
about how you met Jamie?

She was the girlfriend of one
of my boyfriend´s friends.

We told her we would come,
you know, rob people.

I think we all had
something wrong back then.

Something was a
little off and broken

with each and every one of us.

You had the ideas to rob people,

and was there an idea of,
you know, certain clients

that you wanted to target,

or was it just, "We´ll
see how it goes"?

There was mainly the ones
that were loaded with money.

And one of the people that
was targeted was Polites.

There was no more money, period.

There´s no drugs
for me, and I said,

"We can go rob my clients,

and, you know, two of
them probably, you know,

I´d probably want
to kill them."

So I´m trying to get you
to explain to me, you know,

what led it from being
a robbery into a murder.

You know, what was
the tipping point?

I started something
that I couldn´t stop.

Even after I said,
"Okay, then I-I...

yeah, I want... I
want them killed.

I want to kill them."

But even after I changed
my mind and said, you know,

"Let´s put pillowcases
over their face

so they don´t see my
face and they don´t...

They can´t recognize me."

It got crazy. It wasn´t...

What do you mean
by, "It got crazy"?

My boyfriend wasn´t listening.

He didn´t want to
hear it. Like...

What were you wanting to do
that he didn´t want to do?

To leave him... leave him
be and leave him alone.

Leave... let him
live. "Let´s go."

I couldn´t stop it.

Like, I mean, at one
point, my boyfriend...

pulled the gun out and
said, "Get... Get out.

Get the fuck out! Get
out, Ivié. Get out!"

And I had to go.
And what did I do?

I went into one of the
rooms to go get high,

and that was at Jamie´s house.

Her statement goes against
her desire to kill.

Yet she also admits
wanting him killed.

There´s a significant
inconsistency here.

Thomas Christopher James
declined to be interviewed,

but for added perspective,

he gives a very different
version of events

in his arrest statement.

He states that Ivié kneeled
down beside Jaime Polites

while he was hanging
from the doorknob,

screamed that she could hear
him breathing, and demanded,

"You have to do something else
or something to finish it."

Thomas then says
he couldn´t believe

he was in this situation, but
gave her a kiss on the cheek

and told her to go on downstairs

before mauling Jamie Polites´
head with a steel weight.

Whatever version of
events took place,

it´s clear that Ivié is trying
to mitigate her responsibility

in this killing and is
deflecting blame onto others.

I mean, my codefendant,
my boyfriend at the time,

was probably just
as broken as me.

But I can´t sit here and
make him out to be a monster

because I planted these
seeds in his head.

She came across as being very
sympathetic and remorseful.

She is a very good
narrator of her own tale.

But when you hear other sides of
the story and you compare them,

many aspects of her story
did start crumbling.

I came face to face
with my abuser,

of whom I haven´t
seen in 20 years.

And I had these
flashes in my head.

It was of him abusing
me as a little girl

between the ages
of six and seven.

I´ve been so back and
forth on this case.

And I feel like every time
we got new information

I went from, "This was a
trauma-informed response,"

to, "This was a
manipulative ringleader."

No matter how thin you
slice the flapjack,

there´s always two sides,
and I think in this case,

we had to hear the
victim´s side of the story.

But we also had to know the
offender´s side of the story

and why she did what she did.

We ran out of money.

There was no more money, period.

And I said, "We can
go rob my clients.

I have a ton of
five-star clients

that are loaded with money.

You know, two of them, probably,

you know, I´d probably
want to kill them."

I was horrified.

I´ve read a lot and talked
to many serial killers.

I´ve talked to people that have
committed serious offenses,

and this one was
particularly gruesome.

The sexual assault maybe
had a bigger impact

on her life force than
she initially thought.

We know that that is
correlated with criminality

later on in life, right?

I´m still aware of what happened
in these horrific crimes.

This horrible, traumatic
experience she went through,

- it doesn´t excuse
it. - Right.

As tempted as we are to say,

"She´s just a female
serial killer,"

or, "She´s just a psychopath,"

or, "She´s got borderline
personality disorder,

or is the leader of this, you
know, killer group of people,"

she fits into each of
those, but not very well.

She´s got a little bit
of a lot of bad things.

She´s a true
snowflake in the sense

that we have to
really understand her

because she doesn´t fit
in any other type of box.

Squaring her
unusual life history

from the perfect
maternal figure...

to the star recruiter...

from drug addict...

to dominatrix...

to serial killer...

is difficult.

But there´s one
trait that brings

all of these different
pieces together

for a profile of Ivié De Molina.

Every single role she´s
in, in what I´m imagining,

it´s almost like a caricature
with exaggerated features.

And so it´s... She´s
not just a mother,

she´s the white picket
fence with the apron

and acting, you know,
almost like a hyper mother.

And then when she´s
in sex work, you know,

she´s not just a prostitute or
somebody, you know, working.

She´s a dominatrix.

Yeah. She´s an extreme...
almost a caricature of that.

She goes big in, like,
everything she does, really,

to her detriment.

And her benefit. Yeah.

And I almost see this
happening over and over again.

She has an identity,
she wears it out,

and then leaves it behind.

And she can´t even associate
with it mentally anymore.

Her ability to switch
personas lies in her ability

to turn on and off these
personalities, right?

Or these aspects of her life,
whether because of the pain

or because of the trauma
associated with it.

I think that´s what´s
resonating with me the most.

She consistently
distanced herself.

I mean, not just
emotionally and cognitively,

but also physically.

She says, "I was
not even in the room

when these murders
were taking place."

And I think that really
is her modus operandi.

She also did not even raise
Victor and Victoria to me,

which seemed very strange.

The other thing was she did not
seem to even recognize or cope

with the fact that Jacques
and her marriage was over.

There is a lot of reality
that she´s not dealing with.

So that really
speaks a lot to me

about how much she can
dissociate from things,

including, potentially, murder.