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Smooth funky music.
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Look at this.
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- Look at this.
- I didn't know it was a video.
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But how can I burn so bright
and be reflecting too?
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And I know that you need my.
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Everlasting light...
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This makes my booty look big.
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And that's all right...
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We're in the hospital right now,
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awaiting your...
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Your arrival.
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Mm-hm.
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You're coming.
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- You're coming soon.
- You're on your way.
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All right, bye.
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Baby, don't make me weep...
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Come on, Bubba!
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Come on! Come on, Bubba!
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Wanting to take
what's left of my heart.
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So remember,
the homework assignment...
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Yes.
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That is safe to say
that we have made...
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little progress in the, uh,
initiate intimacy or physical
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touch.
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Josh has been traveling,
and I missed him so...
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deeply.
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I was calling him
all the time like,
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"I am lonely, I would
like you to be home."
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- Yeah.
- Like, I think I said that
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not verbatim, but damn near,
like, those words.
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- Yeah.
- Just because...
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I wanna feel that closeness
even when we're not close.
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- Yeah.
- So...
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I... I think I, um...
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When she expresses it in those
moments and texts me and is
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like, "Hey, I really miss
you," I have a really hard time
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believing her, because
it's just objectively true that
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she often calls me to vent, and
I am more than just someone
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to dump your day on.
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I am your lover.
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I am someone that
enjoys being close,
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that enjoys being physical,
that enjoys being wanted,
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and none of those spaces
for me are being fulfilled.
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So it's starting to become a
place where it's just like,
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"Jesus, I need...
I need something.
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I need something for me!"
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I'm empty right now.
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It's hard to... like,
constantly trying to meet
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someone else where they are and
I feel like I'm never met where.
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I want to be, and it feels
like shit, you know?
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Listen, I really get it.
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Something feels
unbearable at this point.
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Yeah.
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Like you can't... all this
stuff that she's offering,
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but you've been
waiting too long.
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And beyond what's going
on between the two of you,
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there's something about the pain
that you're feeling that sounds
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to me like it's coming
from a really early place.
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Like there's some very basic
physical affection that you're
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missing...
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that went on too long.
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Ambient synth music.
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Whatever she's offering to him,
it seems to very easily turn
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into a signal of what
she's not offering.
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Yes.
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There are certain situations
where she does express her
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desire, her opinions,
and he very easily,
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without even
noticing, swats them.
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So it's not like she's
not offering things,
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it's just not at his frequency.
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Well, but I
thought he claimed that one of
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his frequencies would be
emotional connection...
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I know.
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Which she
offered in this instance.
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Yes, but I think
there's some rejection there and
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intense loneliness.
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Almost starvation.
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So one of the things I'm trying
to tune into with him is...
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how extremely he's experiencing
his own deprivation.
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It feels to me like it's
partially coming from childhood
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stuff.
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I mean, that degree of
deprivation is certainly not
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coming from this marriage.
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Can I ask you, Josh, to
tell me something about your,
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like, early background?
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I have a very
chaotic upbringing.
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- Mm-hm.
- Um...
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I grew up rough, you know?
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And, like, my mom and my dad,
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very, very, very
unhealthy relationship.
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My mom is a maniac.
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How so?
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I mean, you name it.
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00:05:01,420 --> 00:05:02,890
My mom poured sugar
in my dad's tank,
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sold his BMW, sold
all his equipment.
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00:05:05,590 --> 00:05:08,390
Uh, my mom cheated on my
father in front of me,
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um, when I was,
like, I think 10.
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And when I mean "cheated," like,
she had sex with another man
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while I was in the same room.
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Um, and that same man put a gun
in my hand and told me to kill
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him at one point.
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- So, like...
- Oof!
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A lot of crazy shit that
I went through as a kid,
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and, um, my dad protected me
from a lot of the things like
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that.
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And he tried to
protect me from my mom,
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but when there was a custody
battle... they separated...
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I was under the
custody of my mother.
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Mm-hm.
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So he couldn't
protect me in those moments.
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He couldn't keep me away
from a lot of that mess.
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How old were you
when they separated?
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I was in first grade
when they began separating.
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And, uh, there's a lot of
moments in my life where,
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like, my mom would get an
apartment and I would just live
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there, and my mom would, like,
get a boyfriend and live with
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her boyfriend or...
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So you would...
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- Yeah.
- Not have an adult around?
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Yeah, often.
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I had a lot of freedom
as a kid because of that.
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- A lot of freedom.
- Freedom, okay.
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Yeah, depends on perspective.
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As a kid, it was freedom.
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As an adult, it was negligence.
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And then I joined a gang at 14.
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I...
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I've been through a lot.
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Yeah.
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- It's very tough.
- Yeah.
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It sounds like you've
done incredible work of,
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indeed, transforming...
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difficult feelings
into reparative,
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compassionate feelings.
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Yeah.
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How are you doing listening?
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Um...
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I think I see so much of
his experience in him,
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and I'm like, "Wow,
you're just... you're magic,"
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right?
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'Cause these things
would've really, you know...
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Yeah, they could have created...
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- Would have messed up anybody.
- Yeah.
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And he just sort of, like,
does his own little internal
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- alchemy...
- Mm-hm.
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And, like, makes, you
know, the best parts of him.
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Mm-hm.
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I process so much
in therapy and, um,
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I work...
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really hard to work on myself,
and I wanna share what I feel
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through these sessions with her
in the intimacy of just me and
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- her.
- Mm-hm.
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And she... she doesn't tend to
be... Natasha doesn't tend to be
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too open to that
kind of conversation.
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What can you add?
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I think that coming here, it
allows me to open up, right?
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And because...
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Because of some sense of safety?
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- Correct.
- Mm-hm.
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And at home, I get really stuck
back into that routine where I'm
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just sort of, like,
avoiding the conversations or...
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But what are you avoiding?
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Just tension, arguing, like...
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- Arguing.
- Yeah.
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- Conflict.
- Yes.
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Conflict is, like,
somewhere where I just have,
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like, a very, like...
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It's not flight or fright
or... What is it called?
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- Flight or fight.
- Fight or flight.
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There we go.
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Um, I am a "freeze."
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So where is this from,
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this fear of things
becoming scary and...?
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Life.
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Uh, my very tumultuous past.
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Tell me.
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At a very young age,
I got in a relationship with my
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daughter's father, and
that was toxic as fuck.
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There was a lot of, um...
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Was it violent?
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- A little bit, yes.
- Mm-hm.
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Um, and then after that
relationship dissolved,
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um, I was sort of in,
like, survival mode,
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uh, without a college
education, just trying to...
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make money, trying to
forge a future for myself and,
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like, keep
everybody alive and safe.
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Mm-hm.
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And, like, I've had so much
conflict in those years that now
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that I'm in sort of
like a... a good space,
190
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any conflict I treat
like catastrophic conflict.
191
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As if it's then, yeah.
192
00:08:43,970 --> 00:08:46,940
But it sounds like actually
you're scared a lot of the time.
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I'm totally scared.
194
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But what are you
scared of in a conversation?
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Well, I think...
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Every conversation
maybe carries the threat of a
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break-up.
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Yes, in my mind, yes.
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You know, we're
engaged, and one day,
200
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,130
I really hope we do get married,
but we really talk about
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00:09:05,330 --> 00:09:08,130
marriage as a big
"If," not a "When."
202
00:09:08,330 --> 00:09:10,530
I want us to stay together
and I want this to be strong,
203
00:09:10,670 --> 00:09:12,646
and I know he does too, and
so it's, like, scared of,
204
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like, what is...
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the other option.
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00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,146
Like, besides us
making this work,
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00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:19,170
what is the other option?
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00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:22,810
For me, that's...
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that's terrifying.
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Curious piano music.
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The fear of
separation is one of the forces
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that keeps people together.
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The dread of the pain of
separation gets people through
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hard times, it gets people
through other times where they
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would have just thrown in the
towel 'cause it's easier to give
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up.
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00:09:51,250 --> 00:09:55,680
On the other hand, you don't
want the fear of being alone to
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be the force that
keeps them together.
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00:09:59,180 --> 00:10:04,190
Because when people feel trapped
and too afraid of being alone,
220
00:10:04,390 --> 00:10:08,230
the relationship starts
to feel like a coffin.
221
00:10:14,980 --> 00:10:18,780
This week has just,
like... I feel like...
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00:10:18,980 --> 00:10:23,210
just a lot is getting stirred
up between us over church stuff.
223
00:10:23,410 --> 00:10:24,710
How so?
224
00:10:26,740 --> 00:10:28,886
I mean, the first thing that
comes to mind is that I feel
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00:10:28,910 --> 00:10:32,880
like you're just very cavalier
or flip about leaving the
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church.
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00:10:34,750 --> 00:10:37,220
I feel like it was
easy for you to stay in,
228
00:10:37,420 --> 00:10:38,890
it was easy for you to leave.
229
00:10:39,090 --> 00:10:41,060
"Why are we crying about it?"
230
00:10:41,260 --> 00:10:44,060
You think it was
easy for me to stay in?!
231
00:10:44,260 --> 00:10:47,230
The five years I
stayed in and you were out,
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00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:50,110
every Sunday was hell for me.
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00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:52,570
Why'd you keep going?
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00:10:52,770 --> 00:10:55,780
Because, like, it was...
I still got spiritual...
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Like, spiritual things from it!-
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And I still
had a community there!
237
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Well, and I think
this points to a big difference
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00:11:02,610 --> 00:11:03,700
between us.
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00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:07,580
You don't contextualize
the church as an abuser,
240
00:11:07,780 --> 00:11:09,250
and I do.
241
00:11:09,450 --> 00:11:10,450
Right.
242
00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:12,260
Can you... can you
say a little bit more?
243
00:11:12,290 --> 00:11:15,460
Like, describe more in detail?
244
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:18,930
Yeah.
245
00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:20,600
I just... I grew up...
246
00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,550
in lies.
247
00:11:24,050 --> 00:11:28,270
Like, I remember, like, having
distinct moments where I just
248
00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:30,810
literally thought I
was going to Hell.
249
00:11:31,010 --> 00:11:33,350
Moments like?
250
00:11:34,900 --> 00:11:38,950
Probably the biggest one was...
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00:11:39,150 --> 00:11:42,620
the night that I got
sexually assaulted.
252
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I was 14,
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and I didn't even
realize that it was that.
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00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:53,500
What happened?
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00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:57,470
Just met a
boy at a park at night.
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00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:59,146
We were just sitting
on a hill and, like,
257
00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:01,970
talking, uh, and
then all of a sudden,
258
00:12:02,170 --> 00:12:04,640
we weren't talking,
and he was on top of me,
259
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:06,640
and he was
touching me, and I, like,
260
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,310
froze and didn't
know what to do.
261
00:12:10,510 --> 00:12:11,980
And...
262
00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:17,190
in Mormonism, sexual
sin is next to murder.
263
00:12:17,610 --> 00:12:20,990
And if you are sexually impure,
264
00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:25,660
then you can't get
to the top level of Heaven,
265
00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:30,170
where all your family
is hopefully gonna be.
266
00:12:30,370 --> 00:12:34,840
And so I remember walking
home just beside myself,
267
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,210
crying my eyes out thinking
that I had fucked up my life.
268
00:12:43,630 --> 00:12:46,720
And my life after death.
269
00:12:50,350 --> 00:12:53,730
I don't even think my parents
remember that that happened.
270
00:12:53,930 --> 00:12:55,190
Did you tell them?
271
00:12:55,390 --> 00:12:57,860
I told my dad, not my mom.
272
00:12:58,060 --> 00:12:58,490
Interesting.
273
00:12:58,690 --> 00:13:01,860
I thought my mom would
think that I was a slut.
274
00:13:02,060 --> 00:13:03,870
So I didn't tell her.
275
00:13:04,070 --> 00:13:06,870
The vibe was very much
"You didn't get raped."
276
00:13:07,070 --> 00:13:07,450
Good.
277
00:13:07,650 --> 00:13:10,710
"So now let's go to
the bishop to confess."
278
00:13:10,910 --> 00:13:11,540
Mm-hm.
279
00:13:11,740 --> 00:13:13,040
And we have a...
280
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,250
a lay clergy in
Mormonism, and so the bishop is,
281
00:13:16,450 --> 00:13:21,050
like, my friend's dad, who you
see at dance recitals and high
282
00:13:21,250 --> 00:13:22,880
school basketball games.
283
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,720
Going and confessing your
sins in graphic detail...
284
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,720
- Humiliating.
- Humiliating!
285
00:13:29,930 --> 00:13:31,730
- Mm-hm.
- So inappropriate.
286
00:13:31,930 --> 00:13:34,400
Locked behind closed
doors with an older man,
287
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:39,520
talking about sexual
stuff as a 14-year-old girl?
288
00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:42,860
- What the fuck?
- Mm-hm.
289
00:13:43,150 --> 00:13:46,860
This is the world that my
parents brought me up in.
290
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:51,870
Do you have
thoughts on this, Brock?
291
00:13:52,070 --> 00:13:56,750
Well, it's just really
sad and tragic and...
292
00:13:56,950 --> 00:13:58,290
heartbreaking.
293
00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:03,490
I think that a lot of what we
struggle with ties back to this.
294
00:14:03,690 --> 00:14:07,970
Like, for five years,
Kristi thinks I betrayed her...
295
00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:09,170
Mm-hm.
296
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,600
By choosing to go to church.
297
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,150
And if I put
myself in her shoes,
298
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:16,940
I can see it.
299
00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:20,110
Like, I can see, like, "This
church robbed me of everything,"
300
00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:20,820
right?
301
00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:24,950
"And I told you all of this,
and you're still gonna go,"
302
00:14:25,150 --> 00:14:25,780
right?
303
00:14:25,980 --> 00:14:27,820
Like, I totally get that.
304
00:14:28,020 --> 00:14:31,290
I'm just tired of it, like,
constantly existing in our
305
00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:34,790
marriage as this,
like... this, like,
306
00:14:34,990 --> 00:14:36,960
big shadow.
307
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,840
I... I feel like I'm... I'm
viewed through that lens still,
308
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,630
right?
309
00:14:42,830 --> 00:14:45,800
I'm out, but I
still feel like...
310
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,550
that... that
animosity is still there.
311
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,480
Yeah, it is there.
312
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,680
I admit it.
313
00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:01,360
You know, I can tell you that
I'm... I'm in two minds...
314
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,820
Or many minds... listening,
because I understand both
315
00:15:06,020 --> 00:15:07,990
your...
316
00:15:08,190 --> 00:15:12,370
deep need to be
recognized and felt,
317
00:15:12,570 --> 00:15:15,330
given what you've been through.
318
00:15:15,530 --> 00:15:20,000
But it also sounds like
Brock is a stand-in
319
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,550
for more than himself...
320
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:27,010
For where you came
from, I guess your family,
321
00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:29,970
your entire community...
322
00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:35,720
And that's, like, a tall order,
to stand in for all of that.
323
00:15:39,310 --> 00:15:41,140
Yeah.
324
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:45,740
I want my parents,
and your parents,
325
00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:48,910
and the church, I
just want it to, like,
326
00:15:49,110 --> 00:15:52,030
not overshadow us.
327
00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:55,280
And, like, consume us.
328
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:59,950
Yeah, I would like that too.
329
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,090
Smooth funky music.
330
00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:23,230
It must have taken a
great deal for her to leave the
331
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:24,770
- church.
- Yeah.
332
00:16:24,970 --> 00:16:29,400
And that may have had to be
built on this kind of mind...
333
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,740
This mind that could
drill her way out.
334
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:32,940
- Mm-hm, yeah.
- Right?
335
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:35,410
And, um, how else
was she gonna get out?
336
00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:36,120
Right.
337
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:41,420
So I think we would have to
appreciate how hard that is.
338
00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:44,130
Mm-hm, yeah.
339
00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:47,760
I wonder whether there's
something going on with that
340
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,130
experience of having her agency
341
00:16:51,330 --> 00:16:55,760
stripped of her that makes it
so important for her now to
342
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,270
make sure that she retains it.
343
00:16:58,470 --> 00:17:00,940
It would interesting
for us to imagine, like,
344
00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:04,940
how that affected her
way of doing this relationship,
345
00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:09,110
because the thing that's hard
for her to do is go
346
00:17:09,310 --> 00:17:10,610
- to his experience.
- I see.
347
00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:12,320
In herself, she can go anywhere.
348
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,780
But it's really hard for
her to accept his difference.
349
00:17:16,990 --> 00:17:20,120
I feel like I have
to convince her why,
350
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,290
ideologically, she needs to
listen to him in a different
351
00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:25,160
way.
352
00:17:25,370 --> 00:17:30,500
Cool funky music.
353
00:18:04,450 --> 00:18:05,000
- Hello!
- Hi!
354
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,620
Hello!
355
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:10,840
How are you two?
356
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,010
We've had yet another...
357
00:18:13,210 --> 00:18:16,050
awesome week.
358
00:18:17,470 --> 00:18:18,470
Mm-hm.
359
00:18:18,550 --> 00:18:19,560
You feel the same way?
360
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,390
I feel like we had a great week,
361
00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:25,730
but I do feel that I did
get in my head a little bit.
362
00:18:25,930 --> 00:18:27,190
How so?
363
00:18:27,390 --> 00:18:30,530
You know, self-doubt, asking
questions about the affair.
364
00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:31,730
"Why did you do this?
365
00:18:31,890 --> 00:18:33,570
Why'd you do that?"
366
00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:35,206
And then went off on
Sean, and he's like,
367
00:18:35,230 --> 00:18:36,376
"Babe, we should...
Both been here, like,"
368
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,950
having a great time and...
369
00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:42,700
"you're allowing this to
interfere with that."
370
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,370
So the two of you have a
great time that's conditioned on
371
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:48,580
certain things
being off the table;
372
00:18:48,790 --> 00:18:50,710
They shouldn't be processed.
373
00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:53,380
It's not about
putting it off the table.
374
00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:57,050
If Erica can't tell me how
to make it better for her,
375
00:18:57,250 --> 00:19:01,220
then we're just talking
about how upset you are,
376
00:19:01,420 --> 00:19:04,890
and in the process of that,
we're just re-aggravating an old
377
00:19:05,090 --> 00:19:08,060
wound, and you're now
upset, and you're now angry,
378
00:19:08,260 --> 00:19:11,570
and you're now in the same
pattern that has pushed us
379
00:19:11,770 --> 00:19:13,360
apart.
380
00:19:13,650 --> 00:19:15,740
I mean, what you're saying
maybe helps make sense of
381
00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:18,910
something that I'm personally
struggling with in terms of how
382
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:19,910
- to work...
- Okay.
383
00:19:20,110 --> 00:19:22,580
- With the two of you.
- Mm-hm.
384
00:19:22,780 --> 00:19:24,910
I don't know if you know
anything about my theoretical
385
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:26,580
- background...
- We don't.
386
00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:27,960
But I'm a psychoanalyst.
387
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:28,690
- Mm-hm.
- Right?
388
00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:34,000
So one of the ways that we
work is a lot of introspection
389
00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:37,090
about what motivates us
to behave certain ways.
390
00:19:37,290 --> 00:19:38,090
Mm-hm.
391
00:19:38,290 --> 00:19:40,300
A lot of self-reflection.
392
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:41,100
Mm-hm.
393
00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:44,430
And I feel like when I'm trying
to do that kind of work with the
394
00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:46,600
two of you, it
doesn't really go...
395
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,100
You, in particular...
396
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:51,480
you seem...
397
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,940
- kind of, like, averse to that.
- -that you're saying you don't
398
00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:56,780
wanna focus on what
happened in the past,
399
00:19:56,980 --> 00:19:58,610
you wanna look forward.
400
00:19:58,810 --> 00:20:01,780
"What are the behaviors
that will make things better?"
401
00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:04,950
And there are therapeutic
approaches that do that,
402
00:20:05,150 --> 00:20:06,950
but I don't really...
Don't know how...
403
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,580
I don't know how to do that.
404
00:20:10,290 --> 00:20:11,630
Okay.
405
00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:14,800
Have you both been
in individual treatment?
406
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,300
- I have.
- Yeah.
407
00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:16,840
- Mm-hm.
- And you?
408
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,970
I've gone, uh, once or twice.
409
00:20:21,170 --> 00:20:23,470
Might be a good
idea for both of you.
410
00:20:23,670 --> 00:20:24,260
Absolutely!
411
00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:27,140
I know that I definitely have
stuff going on with me that I
412
00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:28,820
probably... I... so go... go ahead!
413
00:20:29,010 --> 00:20:29,500
Mm-hm.
414
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:32,480
Orna, I'm... I'm open to
whatever internal reflection
415
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,820
that you think I need to...
416
00:20:35,020 --> 00:20:37,820
So let's, for a
minute, talk about anger.
417
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:38,550
Okay.
418
00:20:38,750 --> 00:20:41,990
I mean, Erica has put on the
table a few reasons why she's
419
00:20:42,190 --> 00:20:43,970
angry.
420
00:20:44,170 --> 00:20:46,990
You have every
right to be angry.
421
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,870
But when your anger is a big
part of the problems that we
422
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,000
have had in our relationship
and in our communication,
423
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,000
how is that
helping us get better?
424
00:20:57,210 --> 00:20:58,010
- And that's...
- I think I'm more defensive
425
00:20:58,210 --> 00:20:58,710
than angry, Sean.
426
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,040
'Cause I've always had to
defend myself my whole life,
427
00:21:01,210 --> 00:21:02,340
- and my positions.
- How so?
428
00:21:02,540 --> 00:21:03,540
How so?
429
00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:05,560
Um, I've always
been, uh, told, like,
430
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,350
I'm not gonna be...
431
00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:09,680
uh, something.
432
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,566
They'll say I'm not
gonna amount to something.
433
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:13,860
It's always been, "Oh,
you know, you're a girl,
434
00:21:14,060 --> 00:21:17,190
you're a Black girl, you have
larger boobs so you can't dance
435
00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:17,820
"this way..."
436
00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:20,740
Like, whatever it was,
it was always something.
437
00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:25,200
And so I made sure I positioned
myself so that I did everything
438
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,370
they said I could
not accomplish.
439
00:21:27,570 --> 00:21:29,370
I would make them
very much aware of that.
440
00:21:29,570 --> 00:21:29,930
Mm-hm.
441
00:21:30,130 --> 00:21:32,370
Um, I think I do
stuff like that with you.
442
00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:34,210
How do you do that with Sean?
443
00:21:34,410 --> 00:21:36,090
He always says I
try to prove a point,
444
00:21:36,290 --> 00:21:38,550
but I don't think it's I'm
trying to prove a point,
445
00:21:38,750 --> 00:21:41,380
it's that I think he's... I feel
like that he's discounted me in
446
00:21:41,580 --> 00:21:42,010
some regard.
447
00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:45,550
Now I'm trying to make
sure that you know...
448
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:47,110
what I actually
bring to the table.
449
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:49,750
But I don't discount you.
450
00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:51,890
But Erica is saying
that I guess there are some
451
00:21:52,090 --> 00:21:53,736
interactions in which
she feels like you...
452
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,900
Erica feels
attacked before it starts.
453
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:58,230
She feels like you discount her.
454
00:21:58,430 --> 00:22:02,110
Can you look inward and find
any place in yourself where you
455
00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:06,410
sometimes feel, "Yeah,
sometimes I feel dismissive?"
456
00:22:06,610 --> 00:22:07,620
Abs... absolutely!
457
00:22:07,820 --> 00:22:08,280
So let's... let's...
458
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,460
There are absolutely
situations where we get into a
459
00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:13,920
- conversation...
- Mm-hm.
460
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:18,090
I'm being not only attacked,
461
00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:19,750
being dismissed,
462
00:22:19,950 --> 00:22:23,300
and in a lot of ways just
catching the wrath of whatever
463
00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:24,930
happened in her day...
464
00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:27,300
She's talking about me
being dismissed, not you.
465
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:30,470
I feel like you're defending
466
00:22:30,670 --> 00:22:34,310
yourself, but what is the... what
are you defending yourself...
467
00:22:34,510 --> 00:22:35,560
about?
468
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,940
I'm not defending myself, I'm...
469
00:22:38,140 --> 00:22:40,270
- I... I f...
- You're... you're not...
470
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:41,650
- Okay.
- I mean, I'm...
471
00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:43,050
I'm not sure what's happening.
472
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:45,110
Do you feel like I'm...
473
00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:45,800
criticizing you?
474
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,950
No, I don't feel
like you're criticizing me,
475
00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:52,290
but I'm saying I know why
I behave the way I behave.
476
00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:56,120
Maybe for Erica, there's a
lot more of that that she needs
477
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:57,320
to...
478
00:22:57,490 --> 00:22:58,770
I mean,
understand about herself,
479
00:22:58,870 --> 00:23:02,960
'cause I see her anger more
than anybody probably.
480
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,470
So for me, I don't
know how to address that.
481
00:23:05,670 --> 00:23:06,150
I don't know how to...
482
00:23:06,350 --> 00:23:10,680
But I'm hoping to bring
couples into less kind of...
483
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,316
- blaming the other person...
- Mm-hm.
484
00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:13,660
And more kind of
looking inward...
485
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,650
"Oh, what about me made
me volunteer to behave
486
00:23:18,850 --> 00:23:20,150
- "in this way?"
- Mm-hm.
487
00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:21,860
- "What about me?"
- Yes.
488
00:23:22,060 --> 00:23:24,860
- Not "What about them?"
- Mm-hm.
489
00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:27,320
I'm super self-reflective.
490
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,990
I always look at what I did
before I look at what anybody
491
00:23:30,190 --> 00:23:31,490
else did. So...
492
00:23:31,690 --> 00:23:34,000
It does not
appear in your speech.
493
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,370
That's because we're here
in a situation with my wife,
494
00:23:36,570 --> 00:23:40,000
who won't listen to me, and I
haven't been able to help Erica
495
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,000
past her anger about what I did.
496
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,320
No, no, no, we're not
talking about you helping Erica,
497
00:23:44,410 --> 00:23:45,846
- we're talking about you...
- Helping you.
498
00:23:45,870 --> 00:23:47,016
Learning something internally.
499
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:47,380
That's the...
500
00:23:47,580 --> 00:23:49,340
Well, I've
processed this internally,
501
00:23:49,540 --> 00:23:51,850
but what I'm dealing with in
this dynamic that we have...
502
00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:52,510
What have you processed, Sean?
503
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:54,790
What... what have you
processed internally, I guess?
504
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,020
I know why I did what I did, but
I'm suffering with the fact that
505
00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:02,520
my wife is an angry person,
506
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,520
and that I'm typically
her punching bag.
507
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,190
Well, she's also mad at you.
508
00:24:05,390 --> 00:24:08,200
She was an angry person
before she was mad at me.
509
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,520
That's... that's the thing.
510
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,870
Sean, I wanna be
really direct with you.
511
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:12,370
Mm-hm.
512
00:24:12,570 --> 00:24:14,200
I don't know how
to work with that.
513
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,820
Okay.
514
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,540
I...
515
00:24:17,740 --> 00:24:20,210
I don't... I don't...
I can't find you.
516
00:24:20,410 --> 00:24:23,040
I find you doing that,
and I can't find you,
517
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,710
I can't connect with
you, I can't find you!
518
00:24:25,910 --> 00:24:28,050
You're saying,
"Erica, Erica, Erica."
519
00:24:28,250 --> 00:24:30,396
There's nowhere in there that
you're telling me something
520
00:24:30,420 --> 00:24:32,390
about yourself, and I...
521
00:24:32,590 --> 00:24:34,736
What can I tell you about
myself that has to do with my
522
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,220
wife's anger?
523
00:24:36,420 --> 00:24:39,230
You could say
something like, "You know...
524
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:43,060
I've had experience where people
get mad at me and I don't really
525
00:24:43,260 --> 00:24:45,400
understand why
people are so mad at me.
526
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,400
I need to understand something
about the way I'm doing things
527
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,410
"that ends up with people
being repeatedly mad at me."
528
00:24:53,610 --> 00:24:58,250
I... I don't have a
lot of issues with people being
529
00:24:58,450 --> 00:25:00,600
mad at me.
530
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,420
It's not a common experience.
531
00:25:02,620 --> 00:25:04,766
Okay, well, you've told me that
your ex-wife is not on speaking
532
00:25:04,790 --> 00:25:05,960
terms with you.
533
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:06,670
My ex-wife...
534
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:10,260
And you have a current
wife, and there's plenty of love
535
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:11,930
- between the two of you...
- Mm-hm.
536
00:25:12,130 --> 00:25:13,930
- And she's mad at you!
- Mm-hm.
537
00:25:14,130 --> 00:25:17,310
So there's something there
that you might wanna look at in
538
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:18,890
yourself.
539
00:25:19,090 --> 00:25:21,770
I don't really need a lot of
insight in why Sean is the way.
540
00:25:21,970 --> 00:25:22,330
Sean is.
541
00:25:22,530 --> 00:25:24,610
I... I understand
myself very, very well.
542
00:25:24,810 --> 00:25:27,270
So how can I be of help?
543
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:28,780
To... no, to... to you!
544
00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:30,280
She's asking to you, sir!
545
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:31,090
Okay.
546
00:25:31,290 --> 00:25:34,660
And for her to be a help to me,
it would be for you to better
547
00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:39,870
understand your anger, why
you're still so angry with me,
548
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:41,580
and...
549
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:43,460
But... I'm... I'm
gonna stop you guys.
550
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:51,750
I'm not the right
therapist for you guys.
551
00:25:55,470 --> 00:26:03,470
Energetic ethereal music
43546
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