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There's a ritual
about coming to therapy that
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makes it this very
safe, open space.
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Mm-hm.
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At home, the conversation ends
up spiraling into a point where.
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I feel very defensive.
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Little things
turn into big things,
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which can turn
into blow-up things.
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And then it just swings back
and forth until we're in a death
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spiral.
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Some couples
walk in in a state of crisis,
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so what they need from me
is to help them understand
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what it is that gets them into
these loops of fighting that
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they assume is just a must-be.
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If that doesn't shift,
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something about the
work is not going well.
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Okay, what do you think that is?
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- What, the painting?
- - Yeah.
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It's whatever you want it to be.
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I mean, isn't that
the whole point?
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What is it to you?
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"Whatever you want it to be!"
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Well...
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I think how it works is
whatever you see is...
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A projection?
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A window into your subconscious.
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I mean, I see some happy
faces, I see some faces.
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So, like, that one, he's...
That one's freaking out.
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That one's happy down there.
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That one's angry.
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I see a cross, a lot of blood,
maybe that's a waterfall that's
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- frozen, and more blood...
- Maybe a polar bear?
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- Maybe a...
- Just a lot of blood.
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Oh God...
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A massacre happened here.
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It does kind of look like
the Antarctic or something.
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- Sure.
- Yeah.
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With a lot of blood.
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Do we talk about yesterday?
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Bring it up now?
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Whenever
you want it to come out.
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Okay, so,
uh, it came up yesterday.
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While I was out with a friend,
Nadine went to see one of her
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- lovers without telling me.
- - Mm-hm.
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00:02:02,908 --> 00:02:04,714
I felt that a boundary was
crossed because there was no
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00:02:04,738 --> 00:02:07,668
communication about
her going to see them.
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00:02:07,868 --> 00:02:10,014
And this isn't the first time a
boundary has been crossed with
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this particular person.
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And so, the primary thing I say
when we're really not getting
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along and I'm really struggling
to establish boundaries or
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00:02:18,048 --> 00:02:20,888
feeling like boundaries are
not being honored is to say,
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"Let's move apart."
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"You need to move out" and
"Let's move apart" are very
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- different energies.
- - Yeah, okay, okay.
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"You need to move out."
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My experience was
a little different.
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- Tell me.
- Um...
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That person, they had
gotten their period,
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00:02:38,898 --> 00:02:41,578
they weren't feeling well, I
asked them if they wanted weed.
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00:02:41,778 --> 00:02:43,578
It was a literal
four-second interaction,
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00:02:43,778 --> 00:02:47,878
like, boom, boom, "Bye,"
'cause I was so afraid of
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00:02:48,078 --> 00:02:50,248
what it would
create in the home.
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I said, "Hey, this
is what happened,"
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and then immediately...
"You need to move out."
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I mean, the energy was not
calm and cool and collected.
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00:02:57,748 --> 00:02:59,234
And mind you, I'm,
like, in the bathtub,
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00:02:59,258 --> 00:03:00,604
so, like, I'm,
like, trying to, like,
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00:03:00,628 --> 00:03:03,098
have a conversation and
trying to relax or whatever.
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00:03:03,298 --> 00:03:05,564
So then it's just, like,
this very intense conversation,
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00:03:05,588 --> 00:03:06,774
and it even... like, the way it...
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00:03:06,798 --> 00:03:08,268
What happens in
the conversation?
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You know, I was like, "My
feelings are growing deeper,"
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00:03:10,138 --> 00:03:12,898
and... and I expressed all that,
so I couldn't understand why
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00:03:13,098 --> 00:03:13,608
- she...
- "My feelings are...?"
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For the other person.
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More than that.
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00:03:15,728 --> 00:03:17,908
There were very
particular words that were said.
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- Okay.
- Like?
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I might be... like, it might
be a love thing, you know?
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00:03:23,988 --> 00:03:25,254
- That I might be feeling.
- Mm-hm.
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00:03:25,278 --> 00:03:28,748
And then, um, I feel
like I can't even, um...
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00:03:28,948 --> 00:03:31,918
I don't know what to do
with myself with how I'm feeling
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00:03:32,118 --> 00:03:34,588
towards this person, what
it's creating in the home.
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00:03:34,788 --> 00:03:37,638
Which does what to you?
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00:03:37,838 --> 00:03:41,138
I feel like I...
Like I'm a bad partner,
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00:03:41,338 --> 00:03:42,858
I'm a bad lover,
I'm a bad everything,
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00:03:43,008 --> 00:03:46,638
and all I do is hurt people, and
this is what I'm doing to her.
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00:03:46,838 --> 00:03:48,484
And it was literally
like going under the water,
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00:03:48,508 --> 00:03:52,268
'cause I felt like
I had no... place.
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00:03:52,478 --> 00:03:54,318
- You had nowhere to go...
- Yes.
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00:03:54,518 --> 00:03:58,158
Where you didn't feel
Christine's feelings.
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00:03:58,358 --> 00:03:58,928
Yeah.
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00:03:59,128 --> 00:04:02,448
And sometimes, it almost feels
like you're responding in a
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00:04:02,648 --> 00:04:05,448
disproportionate way, because I
feel like you don't like this
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00:04:05,648 --> 00:04:06,998
process at all.
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00:04:07,198 --> 00:04:10,288
Like, you don't want to be
open, you don't want to be poly,
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00:04:10,488 --> 00:04:12,958
you hate it, and now,
like, I'm just having to, like,
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00:04:13,158 --> 00:04:17,298
sit here with you
hating my... this relationship.
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00:04:17,498 --> 00:04:18,088
If I may?
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00:04:18,288 --> 00:04:21,798
Sometimes, I feel like I have to
over-exaggerate my response to
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00:04:21,998 --> 00:04:23,308
say, "This is a boundary.
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00:04:23,508 --> 00:04:25,828
We cannot keep pushing them,
we cannot keep crossing them.
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00:04:26,008 --> 00:04:27,808
"I do not feel safe
when that happens."
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00:04:28,008 --> 00:04:31,188
And it's mostly based
in fear and grief, I feel,
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00:04:31,388 --> 00:04:33,688
and a devastating
amount of grief.
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00:04:33,888 --> 00:04:35,358
- But...
- Stay...
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Tell me about that.
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00:04:36,328 --> 00:04:38,858
Uh, just in the
sense of her having feelings for
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00:04:39,058 --> 00:04:40,318
someone else.
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00:04:40,518 --> 00:04:41,958
When you say I'm
not okay with open,
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00:04:42,068 --> 00:04:43,488
that's no longer true.
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00:04:43,688 --> 00:04:45,248
But I thought it
would be more playful.
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00:04:45,398 --> 00:04:47,328
I didn't think it would
be as serious as it is,
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00:04:47,528 --> 00:04:50,168
where we have committed
relationships with other people.
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00:04:50,368 --> 00:04:51,668
And whatever you have said,
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00:04:51,868 --> 00:04:53,668
I say... I might
struggle with it,
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00:04:53,868 --> 00:04:55,674
but I'm always like, "Okay,
let's do it" because I love you.
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00:04:55,698 --> 00:04:57,434
I was also concerned
that if I were to do that,
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00:04:57,458 --> 00:04:58,724
you'd be like, "Okay,
well, you're not gonna see"
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00:04:58,748 --> 00:05:00,684
- "them on the next day."
- I'm not a crazy person!
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00:05:00,708 --> 00:05:01,708
- Christine!
- No...
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00:05:01,878 --> 00:05:02,338
I don't think
you're a crazy person...
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00:05:02,548 --> 00:05:03,048
But hold on.
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00:05:03,248 --> 00:05:06,558
But let's say Christine
says, "If you're gonna do this",
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00:05:06,758 --> 00:05:09,348
if you wanna go see
her today or them today,
125
00:05:09,548 --> 00:05:11,228
"I don't want you to
see them tomorrow,"
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00:05:11,428 --> 00:05:12,628
what is the problem with that?
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00:05:12,718 --> 00:05:14,404
I think I wanted to
do what I wanted to do.
128
00:05:14,428 --> 00:05:16,228
Okay. So there's...
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00:05:16,428 --> 00:05:18,858
And that's a theme of our
relationship, I feel like.
130
00:05:19,058 --> 00:05:20,744
I want to feel like a
priority, but sometimes,
131
00:05:20,768 --> 00:05:23,368
I feel like, um, I
can't ask for anything,
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00:05:23,568 --> 00:05:25,928
and even if you're violating
our own agreements that we're
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00:05:26,108 --> 00:05:27,868
making, you still
do what you want!
134
00:05:28,068 --> 00:05:30,078
And I have to
acquiesce constantly!
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00:05:30,278 --> 00:05:32,248
Just like,
"Whatever, what can I do?
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00:05:32,448 --> 00:05:34,708
Oh, that's Nadine, she's
just gonna do her thing."
137
00:05:36,748 --> 00:05:37,908
- Can I...
- Yeah, please go.
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00:05:37,958 --> 00:05:39,594
Ask the two of you
to pause for a second?
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00:05:39,618 --> 00:05:41,048
- You said a lot.
- - Yeah.
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Meaningful stuff.
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00:05:43,128 --> 00:05:45,598
First of all, how are you
feeling just hearing it?
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00:05:45,798 --> 00:05:48,888
I feel like when you tell me
you want structure and...
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00:05:49,088 --> 00:05:51,098
And predictability,
I'm like, "Sweetheart",
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00:05:51,298 --> 00:05:54,228
that is n... not only
has that... not me,
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"that has never been me."
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I've always been, like,
very upfront about that.
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Like, I don't even know
what I'm gonna do tomorrow.
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You know, it's just this kind
of thing that I've noticed about
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00:06:02,978 --> 00:06:03,778
myself.
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It just... it moves a lot. And...
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00:06:05,318 --> 00:06:07,448
What was it like
as a little person?
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00:06:07,648 --> 00:06:09,464
- As a young person?
- I don't... I don't know.
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Um...
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You don't know
because you don't remember?
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I don't really remember,
and what I do remember,
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I was just really...
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chaotic and unhappy.
158
00:06:17,118 --> 00:06:20,418
What was the chaos early on?
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So my parents
divorced, they remarried,
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they each had two more kids at
the same time when I was 10.
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That totally disrupted my...
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I mean, that
upended... many things.
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Mm-hm.
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00:06:32,278 --> 00:06:36,478
And so, I felt like both of my
families had a family and I was
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not part of either of them.
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- Yeah.
- Yeah.
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And that any time something
was wrong in one family,
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00:06:41,308 --> 00:06:42,664
they would say, "Go
to the other family."
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Same, just like that.
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- So kind of displaced...
- - Yes.
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Homeless...
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Oh, emotionally just
totally discarded, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Sorry I said you
had to move out.
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00:06:59,658 --> 00:07:00,458
No, you're fine. What?
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00:07:00,658 --> 00:07:01,088
Oh, that's okay.
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00:07:01,288 --> 00:07:03,338
Sorry, I said you had to
move out; How terrible!
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Mm-hm.
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00:07:04,168 --> 00:07:06,008
Yeah, I'm just, like,
being your parent again.
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00:07:06,168 --> 00:07:07,168
Yeah.
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00:07:07,208 --> 00:07:08,638
And I feel like I can't escape.
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00:07:08,838 --> 00:07:10,508
- Oh, man.
- You can't escape...?
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00:07:10,708 --> 00:07:12,638
Feeling unwanted,
feeling like, "Godda... ".
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Like, if I feel a touch of,
like, "Someone doesn't want me"
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"in this space," like,
that'll just set me off.
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00:07:19,678 --> 00:07:21,534
Not in, like, an explosive way,
but just, like, I'll leave;
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I don't wanna be there.
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00:07:23,688 --> 00:07:25,244
Especially when I
don't know what I'm doing!
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I do not know what I'm doing, I
don't know... I feel like so many
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00:07:27,858 --> 00:07:29,664
people are trying to be open
and polyamorous and all these
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00:07:29,688 --> 00:07:33,698
things, and I don't
know how to navigate it.
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00:07:33,898 --> 00:07:38,808
What
is motivating the two of you
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00:07:39,008 --> 00:07:40,378
to be together?
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00:07:40,578 --> 00:07:41,878
Oh!
195
00:07:42,078 --> 00:07:45,238
Um, okay, um...
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00:07:45,438 --> 00:07:48,678
I love...
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00:07:48,878 --> 00:07:50,354
everything that she
brings to my life.
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00:07:50,378 --> 00:07:52,678
I mean, totally as if she took...
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00:07:52,878 --> 00:07:55,064
Like, as if I was like this, and
then she gave me glasses,
200
00:07:55,088 --> 00:07:58,348
and I was like... I... I felt
like I could see the world.
201
00:07:58,548 --> 00:07:59,864
And there's no one
I'd rather talk to,
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00:07:59,888 --> 00:08:01,244
there's no one I'd
rather bounce ide...
203
00:08:01,268 --> 00:08:02,268
Like, you know?
204
00:08:02,308 --> 00:08:04,568
It's just really
rich, um, and, like,
205
00:08:04,768 --> 00:08:08,528
deeply spiritual and
connected and, uh, like...
206
00:08:08,728 --> 00:08:11,198
I feel that, like, deeply
in every cell of my body.
207
00:08:11,398 --> 00:08:14,368
Like, there's no
mistake about that.
208
00:08:14,568 --> 00:08:16,408
And, um, I feel
like she's supposed to be in my
209
00:08:16,448 --> 00:08:17,968
life, or I want her,
at the very least,
210
00:08:18,118 --> 00:08:21,748
to be in my life, um,
in a long-term way.
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00:08:21,948 --> 00:08:23,788
Mm-hm.
212
00:08:24,538 --> 00:08:29,628
Upbeat music.
213
00:08:37,848 --> 00:08:42,848
I can't get enough of you.
214
00:08:44,018 --> 00:08:49,028
I can't get enough of you.
215
00:08:50,238 --> 00:08:55,198
Where did you come from?
216
00:08:56,368 --> 00:09:01,368
I can't get enough of you.
217
00:09:02,578 --> 00:09:07,588
I can't get enough of you.
218
00:09:08,748 --> 00:09:13,828
Where did you come from?
219
00:09:18,258 --> 00:09:21,648
How did you
feel after our last session?
220
00:09:21,848 --> 00:09:26,148
Felt like we wasted an hour
that we could have used
221
00:09:26,348 --> 00:09:29,108
to get somewhere in
our relationship.
222
00:09:29,308 --> 00:09:31,108
We don't get anywhere arguing,
223
00:09:31,308 --> 00:09:34,618
which is why I put
my boundaries in place,
224
00:09:34,818 --> 00:09:37,288
because if we can't have
a healthy conversation,
225
00:09:37,488 --> 00:09:40,238
it's just detrimental.
226
00:09:40,658 --> 00:09:43,788
I wanna take a pause from this
and just ask the two of you a
227
00:09:43,988 --> 00:09:46,128
little bit about
your early history.
228
00:09:46,328 --> 00:09:46,668
Mm-hm.
229
00:09:46,868 --> 00:09:48,838
Just to get a
sense of who you are.
230
00:09:49,038 --> 00:09:50,644
- Just growing up and...
- You gonna go first, or me?
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00:09:50,668 --> 00:09:52,738
Sure, uh...
232
00:09:52,938 --> 00:09:55,968
I experienced a lot of loss...
233
00:09:56,168 --> 00:09:58,138
at a early age.
234
00:09:58,338 --> 00:10:03,018
My mom's dad was sick at
the same time as my mom,
235
00:10:03,218 --> 00:10:06,148
and so he died November of 2000,
236
00:10:06,348 --> 00:10:08,858
and then she died
February of 2001.
237
00:10:09,058 --> 00:10:10,058
Wow.
238
00:10:10,098 --> 00:10:11,488
- So...
- And you were young?
239
00:10:11,688 --> 00:10:13,818
I was 18 when
they both got sick,
240
00:10:14,018 --> 00:10:16,198
and I had just graduated
from high school and I was...
241
00:10:16,398 --> 00:10:17,698
What was her condition?
242
00:10:17,898 --> 00:10:19,038
She had bone marrow cancer.
243
00:10:19,238 --> 00:10:20,238
Yeah.
244
00:10:20,398 --> 00:10:22,538
What happened to you
when they both died?
245
00:10:22,738 --> 00:10:24,998
Um, I had a huge hole.
246
00:10:25,198 --> 00:10:25,998
Yeah.
247
00:10:26,198 --> 00:10:27,208
Just a...
248
00:10:27,408 --> 00:10:28,884
it's a void that's
never gonna be filled.
249
00:10:28,908 --> 00:10:29,668
Right.
250
00:10:29,868 --> 00:10:32,338
And so for me, I don't...
251
00:10:32,538 --> 00:10:34,718
I look at Erica and I'm like,
252
00:10:34,918 --> 00:10:39,348
"Man, I would absolutely hate
to not have her in my life."
253
00:10:39,548 --> 00:10:41,854
But at the same time, if I
make her miserable and unhappy,
254
00:10:41,878 --> 00:10:44,348
"I would hate to be..."
255
00:10:44,548 --> 00:10:45,898
Wait, how... how did we...
256
00:10:46,098 --> 00:10:47,534
- I... I mean, just...
- Jump to that?
257
00:10:47,558 --> 00:10:49,188
- I'm lost.
- -
258
00:10:49,388 --> 00:10:51,688
started to sense, like,
259
00:10:51,888 --> 00:10:54,908
what you've been through and...
260
00:10:55,108 --> 00:10:56,738
- this hole that you...
- - Mm-hm.
261
00:10:56,938 --> 00:10:58,528
Were left with.
262
00:10:58,728 --> 00:11:02,658
And then you turned to
Erica to talk about Erica.
263
00:11:03,328 --> 00:11:05,708
Erica...
264
00:11:05,908 --> 00:11:09,088
I wanna know more of
what happened to you.
265
00:11:09,288 --> 00:11:13,048
I don't wanna sit
here and dwell on...
266
00:11:13,248 --> 00:11:14,758
what can't be changed.
267
00:11:14,958 --> 00:11:16,388
But what are you
saying with that?
268
00:11:16,588 --> 00:11:20,928
She cares more about punishing
me for the ways that I have hurt
269
00:11:21,128 --> 00:11:22,888
her...
270
00:11:23,088 --> 00:11:24,428
than anything.
271
00:11:24,638 --> 00:11:27,398
So it's like, for me, okay,
you're... you're going back to
272
00:11:27,598 --> 00:11:30,898
the same thing that you've been
mad at me about for the last six
273
00:11:31,098 --> 00:11:33,284
months, and we just had a great
day and we've been having a
274
00:11:33,308 --> 00:11:36,448
great evening, but now, I
gotta hear about this again.
275
00:11:36,648 --> 00:11:38,618
I guess I don't know if
he understands, like,
276
00:11:38,818 --> 00:11:43,828
how deeply-rooted
that he has damaged...
277
00:11:44,238 --> 00:11:47,078
our relationship and me...
Me within the relationship.
278
00:11:47,278 --> 00:11:48,278
Mm-hm.
279
00:11:48,328 --> 00:11:49,788
Not even by the sex act, per se,
280
00:11:49,988 --> 00:11:51,304
but just by the
level of betrayal.
281
00:11:51,328 --> 00:11:53,418
Like, you lied to me in my face,
282
00:11:53,618 --> 00:11:58,298
and I don't deserve to be pissed
on and treated the way you did
283
00:11:58,498 --> 00:12:00,718
- to me.
- Who does?
284
00:12:01,048 --> 00:12:03,098
I get it; I did what I did.
285
00:12:03,298 --> 00:12:04,808
But you talk...
286
00:12:05,008 --> 00:12:06,018
So stop belittling it!
287
00:12:06,218 --> 00:12:07,898
I'm not belittling it!
But it's the same...
288
00:12:08,008 --> 00:12:09,248
Sean, there is a way... I mean,
289
00:12:09,348 --> 00:12:11,478
that's what I was trying
to get at last session.
290
00:12:11,678 --> 00:12:13,438
Okay, so...
291
00:12:13,638 --> 00:12:17,818
You don't seem to be moved
by how much pain you've caused,
292
00:12:18,018 --> 00:12:19,988
because you're
asking Erica to say,
293
00:12:20,188 --> 00:12:23,238
"This is... everything is great."
294
00:12:24,118 --> 00:12:24,718
I'm not!
295
00:12:24,918 --> 00:12:27,118
Meanwhile, there's something
that, at least for Erica,
296
00:12:27,158 --> 00:12:29,618
is really hurting her.
297
00:12:30,118 --> 00:12:32,668
You can say again
and again and again,
298
00:12:32,868 --> 00:12:35,798
"We have a great marriage,"
but you're doing things that are
299
00:12:35,998 --> 00:12:37,298
hurting Erica.
300
00:12:37,498 --> 00:12:38,778
I did do things that hurt Erica.
301
00:12:38,878 --> 00:12:40,178
- Yeah!
- Yes.
302
00:12:40,378 --> 00:12:41,718
So...
303
00:12:41,918 --> 00:12:45,518
But why is it that we're still
talking about things that...
304
00:12:45,718 --> 00:12:49,978
Well, from what I'm seeing,
there's some kind of repair that
305
00:12:50,178 --> 00:12:51,978
is not happening.
306
00:12:52,178 --> 00:12:54,324
There's not an answer that I'm
gonna give her that's gonna make
307
00:12:54,348 --> 00:12:56,028
her feel better
about what I did.
308
00:12:56,228 --> 00:12:59,988
Right, but just to try to
stay more to the point here,
309
00:13:00,188 --> 00:13:01,528
something needs to be repaired.
310
00:13:01,728 --> 00:13:02,728
Yeah.
311
00:13:02,858 --> 00:13:05,828
You can't repair
with that attitude.
312
00:13:06,028 --> 00:13:10,328
You can repair
by truly imagining
313
00:13:10,528 --> 00:13:14,378
what kind of damage or hurt
you've caused the other person
314
00:13:14,578 --> 00:13:17,508
and finding a way to open
yourself up to feeling some kind
315
00:13:17,708 --> 00:13:19,338
- of remorse.
- Mm-hm.
316
00:13:19,538 --> 00:13:20,878
That's where repair comes from.
317
00:13:21,078 --> 00:13:22,908
Mm-hm.
318
00:13:23,108 --> 00:13:25,058
But that's her attitude.
319
00:13:25,258 --> 00:13:26,058
What do you mean?
320
00:13:26,258 --> 00:13:27,718
I mean that's her attitude.
321
00:13:27,928 --> 00:13:29,388
- Towards you?
- Yes.
322
00:13:29,588 --> 00:13:32,018
Well, from what I've seen here,
that has been your attitude.
323
00:13:32,218 --> 00:13:32,688
You might be doing something...
324
00:13:32,888 --> 00:13:36,568
Well, you're seeing me six
months of being badgered,
325
00:13:36,768 --> 00:13:38,028
- punched on...
- - Mm-hm.
326
00:13:38,228 --> 00:13:40,188
On repeat.
327
00:13:40,818 --> 00:13:43,698
My impression is that
there's some way that you're not
328
00:13:43,898 --> 00:13:45,528
bringing yourself to the table.
329
00:13:45,728 --> 00:13:49,268
I... I don't know how else I
can bring myself to the table.
330
00:13:49,468 --> 00:13:51,748
Every time that
topic comes up...
331
00:13:53,408 --> 00:13:56,748
It turns into a drag-out
argument because my answers
332
00:13:56,948 --> 00:13:59,258
don't make her feel better.
333
00:13:59,458 --> 00:14:01,758
It doesn't fix a problem, it
makes for more of an issue.
334
00:14:01,958 --> 00:14:04,428
Maybe I want Sean to tell me
actually what the role I did
335
00:14:04,628 --> 00:14:07,928
play in his cheating, because I
think I need to understand that.
336
00:14:08,128 --> 00:14:11,558
My infidelity was
me being selfish.
337
00:14:11,758 --> 00:14:16,268
The only role you played in
that is that in our previous
338
00:14:16,468 --> 00:14:18,568
- conversations that we've had...
- No, that's bull.
339
00:14:18,768 --> 00:14:22,948
About what is and isn't okay,
you have said things that have
340
00:14:23,148 --> 00:14:26,948
led me to believe I was able to
give myself more leeway than I
341
00:14:27,148 --> 00:14:28,288
typically would.
342
00:14:28,488 --> 00:14:29,848
That's bullshit
and you know that.
343
00:14:29,948 --> 00:14:31,228
- I just...
- It's not, it's not!
344
00:14:31,318 --> 00:14:32,758
You're... you're on
some other level.
345
00:14:32,948 --> 00:14:33,538
And it's not!
346
00:14:33,738 --> 00:14:39,038
People do announce that their
relationship has a component of
347
00:14:39,328 --> 00:14:42,468
non-monogamy... what they
"ethical non-monogamy,"
348
00:14:42,668 --> 00:14:44,128
- where they're honest.
- - Mm-hm.
349
00:14:44,328 --> 00:14:45,588
Why not that?
350
00:14:45,788 --> 00:14:48,028
If we were to say that's
what our relationship is on...
351
00:14:48,168 --> 00:14:48,718
Mm-hm.
352
00:14:48,918 --> 00:14:51,308
I would still have the same
code of silence that I have
353
00:14:51,508 --> 00:14:53,268
always had.
354
00:14:53,468 --> 00:14:56,808
But code of silence is
different than being honest.
355
00:14:57,008 --> 00:14:57,768
Mm-hm.
356
00:14:57,968 --> 00:14:59,938
Right, that's dishonesty.
357
00:15:00,138 --> 00:15:03,108
No, it's not, because when you
asked the appropriate question,
358
00:15:03,308 --> 00:15:05,028
- did I not answer it?
- No, Sean, come on.
359
00:15:05,148 --> 00:15:06,704
- Let's not do...
- - No, I'm just saying.
360
00:15:06,728 --> 00:15:09,288
I'm never gonna be somebody who
goes out and sleeps with another
361
00:15:09,358 --> 00:15:11,828
woman and wants to come home
and talk about it with my wife.
362
00:15:12,028 --> 00:15:14,288
That's just... nah.
363
00:15:14,488 --> 00:15:18,498
I don't care about what you're
doing when you are not with me,
364
00:15:18,698 --> 00:15:20,979
so if you're gonna do it, be
prepared to take it to your
365
00:15:21,158 --> 00:15:22,838
grave, 'cause I don't
wanna hear about it.
366
00:15:23,038 --> 00:15:27,338
What I don't know is
not going to piss me off.
367
00:15:27,538 --> 00:15:32,138
Melancholy music.
368
00:15:32,338 --> 00:15:33,348
Thank you.
369
00:15:33,548 --> 00:15:35,478
Much better session!
370
00:15:35,678 --> 00:15:37,478
Have a good one, thank you.
371
00:15:44,978 --> 00:15:48,028
I could not get any traction.
372
00:15:48,228 --> 00:15:52,488
Whenever the focus is on him in
a way that requires of him to
373
00:15:52,688 --> 00:15:56,668
own him causing distress,
374
00:15:56,868 --> 00:15:59,378
he can't really
show up for that.
375
00:15:59,578 --> 00:16:00,168
Yeah.
376
00:16:00,368 --> 00:16:02,878
There's never been a moment in
which I saw him kind of pause
377
00:16:03,078 --> 00:16:07,458
and say, "I can see
that would be hurtful."
378
00:16:08,338 --> 00:16:10,178
- Ever.
- Yeah.
379
00:16:10,378 --> 00:16:14,058
I feel frustrated with him
for not engaging in actual
380
00:16:14,258 --> 00:16:15,848
- self-reflection.
- - Right.
381
00:16:16,048 --> 00:16:19,728
I feel kind of at the
limits of just my technique.
382
00:16:19,928 --> 00:16:22,228
I mean, there must be other
ways to work with this that
383
00:16:22,428 --> 00:16:24,228
are... other therapists can do.
384
00:16:24,428 --> 00:16:26,028
I don't know how
to work with this.
385
00:16:26,228 --> 00:16:27,568
Then I would say so.
386
00:16:27,768 --> 00:16:30,368
"So the only thing I can see
is that we need to sadly say"
387
00:16:30,568 --> 00:16:33,538
goodbye because I can't
help you in this way.
388
00:16:33,738 --> 00:16:38,418
Or I need you to
take a chance on me
389
00:16:38,618 --> 00:16:42,378
and not fight me so hard and
let me see if I can find you,
390
00:16:42,578 --> 00:16:44,248
'cause right now,
I don't have you.
391
00:16:44,448 --> 00:16:46,008
"I haven't found you;
I don't know you."
392
00:16:46,118 --> 00:16:47,588
Mm-hm.
393
00:16:47,788 --> 00:16:49,378
Mellow quirky music.
394
00:17:11,738 --> 00:17:15,408
Kristi is the most creative,
395
00:17:15,608 --> 00:17:18,078
like, honestly
smartest person I know.
396
00:17:18,278 --> 00:17:23,208
She is incredibly connected,
and it's a beautiful thing,
397
00:17:23,618 --> 00:17:26,628
like, what an empath she is.
398
00:17:26,828 --> 00:17:31,758
And at the same time, she
really, really hurt me.
399
00:17:35,218 --> 00:17:37,468
I had a red line
for our marriage,
400
00:17:37,668 --> 00:17:40,808
and she knew the red
line, 'cause I told her.
401
00:17:41,008 --> 00:17:41,618
Mm-hm.
402
00:17:41,818 --> 00:17:46,728
Like, "Look, like, if we decide
to open this together, right?"
403
00:17:47,938 --> 00:17:51,108
He is... he... you... you
cannot be with him."
404
00:17:51,308 --> 00:17:51,548
Mm-hm.
405
00:17:51,748 --> 00:17:53,278
"Like, that will screw me up."
406
00:17:53,478 --> 00:17:54,818
Like, that will fuck me up.
407
00:17:55,028 --> 00:17:56,964
"Like, I don't know how
I'm gonna react to that."
408
00:17:56,988 --> 00:17:57,408
Mm-hm.
409
00:17:57,608 --> 00:18:02,168
And I made it
incredibly clear, right?
410
00:18:02,368 --> 00:18:05,168
So this guy comes into town.
411
00:18:05,368 --> 00:18:06,128
Mm-hm.
412
00:18:06,328 --> 00:18:08,128
And I didn't bug them.
413
00:18:08,328 --> 00:18:10,568
Like, you guys went to a
museum for a long time one day.
414
00:18:10,668 --> 00:18:11,048
The next day...
415
00:18:11,248 --> 00:18:13,338
You had work to do
and I had an afternoon!
416
00:18:13,538 --> 00:18:16,178
But the point is,
like, you didn't invite me.
417
00:18:16,378 --> 00:18:17,984
- Oh my God...
- -That's kind of important,
418
00:18:18,008 --> 00:18:18,348
right?
419
00:18:18,548 --> 00:18:20,308
- And Kristi, like...
- Can I... can I...
420
00:18:20,508 --> 00:18:22,308
- Yeah.
- Stop you for a second?
421
00:18:22,508 --> 00:18:25,188
Kristi, I want you to try
to listen differently...
422
00:18:25,388 --> 00:18:30,308
Not for the facts, for
how things really unfolded,
423
00:18:30,518 --> 00:18:32,698
but for Brock's story.
424
00:18:32,898 --> 00:18:36,548
Like, how he experienced it.
425
00:18:36,748 --> 00:18:41,198
It's more interesting than
the actual sequence of events.
426
00:18:41,398 --> 00:18:45,748
It's like how each person
really felt it from within.
427
00:18:48,498 --> 00:18:50,288
Okay.
428
00:18:51,038 --> 00:18:55,838
Okay, so anyway, the
sequence of events after that is
429
00:18:56,038 --> 00:18:59,888
blurry, but two days later,
430
00:19:00,088 --> 00:19:02,018
he slept with Kristi.
431
00:19:02,218 --> 00:19:03,218
Mm-hm.
432
00:19:03,258 --> 00:19:06,518
And, like...
433
00:19:06,718 --> 00:19:10,568
I just remember weirdly,
like, three feelings...
434
00:19:10,768 --> 00:19:14,528
Like, very... it's
a very strange mix.
435
00:19:14,728 --> 00:19:18,528
Like, I remember
being so angry at her.
436
00:19:19,028 --> 00:19:23,038
I remember still,
like, loving her,
437
00:19:23,238 --> 00:19:25,418
which I was confused by.
438
00:19:25,618 --> 00:19:30,248
And then, the next
day, like, I just felt...
439
00:19:30,448 --> 00:19:31,628
free.
440
00:19:31,828 --> 00:19:35,588
It was like I no longer
had to, like, care for her.
441
00:19:35,788 --> 00:19:38,258
I no longer had to care
what her opinions were.
442
00:19:38,458 --> 00:19:39,258
Mm-hm.
443
00:19:39,458 --> 00:19:42,718
And that's when I
was like, "Okay",
444
00:19:42,918 --> 00:19:45,058
then we just
opened the marriage."
445
00:19:45,258 --> 00:19:47,938
Like, I was not gonna have "No"
for an answer at this point.
446
00:19:48,138 --> 00:19:51,568
It was like, you know,
"No, we're doing this now,"
447
00:19:51,768 --> 00:19:52,768
right?
448
00:19:52,928 --> 00:19:55,608
That was, like, a
really bad time,
449
00:19:55,808 --> 00:20:00,738
because I was a
horrible husband...
450
00:20:01,158 --> 00:20:05,118
but I also felt
incredibly powerful.
451
00:20:05,318 --> 00:20:09,128
Like, I felt like, "I
am finally in control."
452
00:20:09,328 --> 00:20:12,418
And so I went on some dates.
453
00:20:12,618 --> 00:20:14,418
I was intimate with someone.
454
00:20:14,618 --> 00:20:15,188
Um...
455
00:20:15,388 --> 00:20:19,258
it's an interesting feeling,
after 15 years of being with one
456
00:20:19,458 --> 00:20:22,638
person, to go out with
other people and realize,
457
00:20:22,838 --> 00:20:23,968
"Oh, like, hey!
458
00:20:24,168 --> 00:20:28,598
Like, I... I am really
kind of a likable guy,"
459
00:20:28,798 --> 00:20:30,608
- you know?
- Mm-hm.
460
00:20:30,808 --> 00:20:33,438
And so she got
really uncomfortable,
461
00:20:33,638 --> 00:20:36,608
so we shut the marriage,
462
00:20:36,808 --> 00:20:40,618
and then I felt, like...
463
00:20:40,818 --> 00:20:42,948
I felt controlled again.
464
00:20:43,148 --> 00:20:46,788
And the anger just,
like... it was just so bad.
465
00:20:46,988 --> 00:20:48,348
And I was like,
"I want a divorce.
466
00:20:48,528 --> 00:20:49,998
Like, I can't do this."
467
00:20:50,198 --> 00:20:52,628
And she apologized; She
said, "Let's give it 30 days."
468
00:20:52,828 --> 00:20:53,998
I said, "Fine."
469
00:20:54,198 --> 00:20:56,128
And then we gave it 30 days.
470
00:20:56,328 --> 00:21:01,258
And then we slowly
started to rebuild.
471
00:21:04,758 --> 00:21:06,518
- Can I check in with you?
- Mm-hm.
472
00:21:06,718 --> 00:21:09,188
On your end, Kristi, what
happened when the two of you
473
00:21:09,388 --> 00:21:12,268
were trying to talk about it?
474
00:21:16,058 --> 00:21:17,688
It was just brutal, just brutal.
475
00:21:17,888 --> 00:21:20,358
I felt like I was
trying to, like...
476
00:21:20,558 --> 00:21:24,318
hold our world
from blowing apart.
477
00:21:24,528 --> 00:21:26,198
Single-handedly.
478
00:21:26,398 --> 00:21:29,788
'Cause he was on, like,
a destruction course.
479
00:21:30,238 --> 00:21:33,038
I felt awful
because of what I did.
480
00:21:33,238 --> 00:21:36,128
That was just the
worst time in my life.
481
00:21:37,328 --> 00:21:39,718
It sounds very difficult.
482
00:21:39,918 --> 00:21:41,548
Yeah.
483
00:21:41,748 --> 00:21:43,008
Yeah.
484
00:21:43,208 --> 00:21:47,908
Well, can you assess
where you are now in terms of,
485
00:21:48,108 --> 00:21:51,388
like, where this sits
between the two of you,
486
00:21:51,588 --> 00:21:55,728
and how much do you feel
understood and understand each
487
00:21:55,928 --> 00:21:57,398
other?
488
00:21:59,058 --> 00:22:00,574
I don't know how
much you realize, like,
489
00:22:00,598 --> 00:22:02,698
how much I think about it.
490
00:22:02,898 --> 00:22:06,408
Like, it's not something
that I just... has gone away.
491
00:22:06,608 --> 00:22:08,198
Mm-hm.
492
00:22:08,398 --> 00:22:11,618
Where is it for you?
493
00:22:11,818 --> 00:22:15,588
I do think about
it... frequently...
494
00:22:15,788 --> 00:22:17,378
in a different way than Brock.
495
00:22:17,578 --> 00:22:22,498
Like, I think about it as
something that I'm really...
496
00:22:23,008 --> 00:22:28,058
proud of us for enduring and for
making our way through together.
497
00:22:28,258 --> 00:22:28,768
Mm-hm.
498
00:22:28,968 --> 00:22:31,228
And sometimes, even just,
like, hearing you talk...
499
00:22:31,428 --> 00:22:34,768
it sounds crazy but
I almost want to thank you.
500
00:22:34,968 --> 00:22:37,228
I'm like, "I freed you.
501
00:22:37,428 --> 00:22:40,438
I freed you from an old way of
loving that actually wasn't real
502
00:22:40,638 --> 00:22:42,318
love.
503
00:22:42,568 --> 00:22:45,908
Like, I freed you from a love
that was just commitment and
504
00:22:46,108 --> 00:22:48,448
duty, and you do it
just because you do,
505
00:22:48,648 --> 00:22:51,828
"and you show up,
and that's love."
506
00:22:52,408 --> 00:22:54,958
I know that it was the worst
thing that I could have done.
507
00:22:55,158 --> 00:22:57,458
And you're right, I knew
that that was your red line.
508
00:22:57,658 --> 00:23:01,588
I knew that all along.
509
00:23:01,788 --> 00:23:03,468
And I still did it.
510
00:23:05,498 --> 00:23:08,928
And I...
511
00:23:09,128 --> 00:23:11,498
am proud of myself!
512
00:23:11,698 --> 00:23:14,268
I don't know how else to say it.
513
00:23:16,678 --> 00:23:18,938
Do you have a reaction?
514
00:23:19,138 --> 00:23:20,318
Yeah.
515
00:23:20,518 --> 00:23:25,378
It's "This is... this is
the narrative that is"
516
00:23:25,578 --> 00:23:27,318
impossible for me to accept."
517
00:23:27,518 --> 00:23:32,448
Like, this idea that I'm
supposed to thank you
518
00:23:32,658 --> 00:23:35,828
for dancing with the
Devil and being so brave,
519
00:23:36,028 --> 00:23:41,038
and doing this
horrible thing to me.
520
00:23:43,708 --> 00:23:46,178
It's not like I set
out with that intention.
521
00:23:46,378 --> 00:23:49,638
I... I know, but it's... you...
522
00:23:49,838 --> 00:23:54,518
You make yourself out in this
narrative to be the hero.
523
00:23:54,718 --> 00:23:58,348
You're totally forgetting that
I was ready to explore an open
524
00:23:58,558 --> 00:23:59,558
relationship!
525
00:23:59,678 --> 00:24:03,028
Like, this did not
have to happen...
526
00:24:03,228 --> 00:24:06,818
for us to break...
527
00:24:09,648 --> 00:24:11,028
That is hard for me, right?
528
00:24:11,228 --> 00:24:13,658
Because when you say that,
529
00:24:13,858 --> 00:24:17,868
I feel like I kind
of got sacrificed.
530
00:24:18,068 --> 00:24:18,498
Like...
531
00:24:18,698 --> 00:24:21,208
You also know that it
wasn't just about you.
532
00:24:21,408 --> 00:24:22,688
I know it wasn't
just about me...
533
00:24:22,748 --> 00:24:24,338
- But you always forget it!
- But...
534
00:24:24,538 --> 00:24:27,548
But do you... but before
you go back to yourself,
535
00:24:27,748 --> 00:24:32,658
Kristi, can you go in
Brock's direction temporarily?
536
00:24:32,858 --> 00:24:35,058
Yeah, no, I see that!
537
00:24:35,258 --> 00:24:40,178
But what's preventing
you from expressing it fully?
538
00:24:41,138 --> 00:24:43,398
Just some resentment.
539
00:24:43,598 --> 00:24:46,028
I feel like...
540
00:24:46,228 --> 00:24:49,068
Brock is asking me to grant him
understanding that he doesn't
541
00:24:49,268 --> 00:24:51,528
extend my way.
542
00:24:51,728 --> 00:24:55,238
What makes you feel
like I don't understand...
543
00:24:55,448 --> 00:24:56,868
your feelings?
544
00:24:57,068 --> 00:25:01,378
'Cause I don't think that you
saw how you sacrificed me for
545
00:25:01,578 --> 00:25:04,828
years before any of
this even happened!
546
00:25:05,458 --> 00:25:08,878
You're right, I don't...
I... I have a very hard time,
547
00:25:09,078 --> 00:25:12,758
like, drawing a parallel
548
00:25:12,958 --> 00:25:14,718
or understanding
how I sacrificed you,
549
00:25:14,918 --> 00:25:18,768
because I was there for you,
I just went to church.
550
00:25:18,968 --> 00:25:20,558
N... you... Brock...
551
00:25:21,848 --> 00:25:25,778
I was so open with
you and so honest
552
00:25:25,978 --> 00:25:30,068
about how the
church had hurt me,
553
00:25:30,268 --> 00:25:32,408
how it had been an abuser to me,
554
00:25:32,608 --> 00:25:35,238
and you still fucked with it!
555
00:25:35,438 --> 00:25:37,408
Do you not see how
that is a betrayal?!
556
00:25:37,608 --> 00:25:39,958
How I would feel
sacrificed in that?!
557
00:25:40,158 --> 00:25:42,288
Like, even just a
couple weeks ago at dinner,
558
00:25:42,488 --> 00:25:45,088
we were sharing with some
friends about our process of
559
00:25:45,288 --> 00:25:47,134
leaving the church,
everything, and Brock says,
560
00:25:47,158 --> 00:25:48,918
"Well, you know, like,
Kristi left but, like,
561
00:25:48,958 --> 00:25:51,628
I just really needed to
leave for personal reasons."
562
00:25:51,828 --> 00:25:53,798
And I said to you
for the first time, like,
563
00:25:53,998 --> 00:25:57,048
"Why was I not
a personal reason?"
564
00:25:57,298 --> 00:25:58,808
Why was I not a
personal reason?!
565
00:25:59,008 --> 00:26:01,308
Why am I... your wife,
your love, your beloved...
566
00:26:01,508 --> 00:26:02,308
Not a personal reason?!
567
00:26:02,508 --> 00:26:04,838
I don't understand that!
568
00:26:09,188 --> 00:26:13,608
Moody piano music.
569
00:26:13,818 --> 00:26:15,988
He begged her not
to sleep with that particular
570
00:26:16,188 --> 00:26:17,618
- person.
- - Yes.
571
00:26:17,818 --> 00:26:21,498
And I'm seeing how catastrophic
that would be if I were him.
572
00:26:21,698 --> 00:26:23,118
Humiliating beyond humiliating.
573
00:26:23,318 --> 00:26:24,788
Yeah.
574
00:26:24,988 --> 00:26:26,788
Why did she do that?
575
00:26:30,538 --> 00:26:33,628
Wrapped in your sheets.
576
00:26:33,838 --> 00:26:37,258
A little longer.
577
00:26:38,298 --> 00:26:43,098
Only dreams to keep me warm.
578
00:26:43,638 --> 00:26:48,978
But there's something in my
lungs that makes me wonder.
579
00:26:51,608 --> 00:26:54,358
You ask me where I'll be.
580
00:26:54,558 --> 00:26:57,528
Without him still loving me.
581
00:26:57,728 --> 00:27:00,658
At the end of the night.
582
00:27:00,858 --> 00:27:04,038
At the end of the night.
583
00:27:04,238 --> 00:27:09,248
You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed.
584
00:27:10,828 --> 00:27:15,758
You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed.
585
00:27:17,338 --> 00:27:22,348
You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed.
586
00:27:23,968 --> 00:27:28,978
You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed.
587
00:27:30,648 --> 00:27:33,318
And I'd love to be.
588
00:27:34,068 --> 00:27:37,318
With you in autumn.
589
00:27:37,818 --> 00:27:43,158
Like the colors of your soul.
590
00:27:43,988 --> 00:27:47,248
But I feel so green.
591
00:27:47,448 --> 00:27:50,368
My sole reminder.
592
00:27:51,498 --> 00:27:56,508
How I love to paint my own.
593
00:27:57,008 --> 00:28:02,338
Oh, I heard you in the
dark when I was lonely...
45578
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