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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:12,178 --> 00:00:15,728 There's a ritual about coming to therapy that 2 00:00:15,928 --> 00:00:19,268 makes it this very safe, open space. 3 00:00:19,468 --> 00:00:20,078 Mm-hm. 4 00:00:20,278 --> 00:00:23,228 At home, the conversation ends up spiraling into a point where. 5 00:00:23,428 --> 00:00:25,558 I feel very defensive. 6 00:00:25,858 --> 00:00:27,948 Little things turn into big things, 7 00:00:28,148 --> 00:00:30,568 which can turn into blow-up things. 8 00:00:30,768 --> 00:00:33,578 And then it just swings back and forth until we're in a death 9 00:00:33,778 --> 00:00:34,908 spiral. 10 00:00:38,318 --> 00:00:42,128 Some couples walk in in a state of crisis, 11 00:00:42,328 --> 00:00:46,628 so what they need from me is to help them understand 12 00:00:46,828 --> 00:00:50,758 what it is that gets them into these loops of fighting that 13 00:00:50,958 --> 00:00:54,428 they assume is just a must-be. 14 00:00:54,628 --> 00:00:56,468 If that doesn't shift, 15 00:00:56,668 --> 00:00:59,438 something about the work is not going well. 16 00:01:08,768 --> 00:01:10,488 Okay, what do you think that is? 17 00:01:10,688 --> 00:01:13,358 - What, the painting? - - Yeah. 18 00:01:14,278 --> 00:01:15,558 It's whatever you want it to be. 19 00:01:15,648 --> 00:01:17,328 I mean, isn't that the whole point? 20 00:01:19,488 --> 00:01:19,908 What is it to you? 21 00:01:20,108 --> 00:01:21,788 "Whatever you want it to be!" 22 00:01:21,988 --> 00:01:22,438 Well... 23 00:01:22,638 --> 00:01:25,998 I think how it works is whatever you see is... 24 00:01:26,198 --> 00:01:26,998 A projection? 25 00:01:27,208 --> 00:01:28,488 A window into your subconscious. 26 00:01:28,658 --> 00:01:30,628 I mean, I see some happy faces, I see some faces. 27 00:01:30,828 --> 00:01:32,908 So, like, that one, he's... That one's freaking out. 28 00:01:33,038 --> 00:01:34,158 That one's happy down there. 29 00:01:34,208 --> 00:01:34,778 That one's angry. 30 00:01:34,978 --> 00:01:38,678 I see a cross, a lot of blood, maybe that's a waterfall that's 31 00:01:38,878 --> 00:01:40,314 - frozen, and more blood... - Maybe a polar bear? 32 00:01:40,338 --> 00:01:41,778 - Maybe a... - Just a lot of blood. 33 00:01:41,838 --> 00:01:42,838 Oh God... 34 00:01:42,928 --> 00:01:44,188 A massacre happened here. 35 00:01:44,388 --> 00:01:46,508 It does kind of look like the Antarctic or something. 36 00:01:46,558 --> 00:01:48,528 - Sure. - Yeah. 37 00:01:48,728 --> 00:01:50,898 With a lot of blood. 38 00:01:52,978 --> 00:01:54,488 Do we talk about yesterday? 39 00:01:54,688 --> 00:01:55,068 Bring it up now? 40 00:01:55,268 --> 00:01:57,028 Whenever you want it to come out. 41 00:01:57,238 --> 00:01:58,658 Okay, so, uh, it came up yesterday. 42 00:01:58,858 --> 00:02:00,504 While I was out with a friend, Nadine went to see one of her 43 00:02:00,528 --> 00:02:02,708 - lovers without telling me. - - Mm-hm. 44 00:02:02,908 --> 00:02:04,714 I felt that a boundary was crossed because there was no 45 00:02:04,738 --> 00:02:07,668 communication about her going to see them. 46 00:02:07,868 --> 00:02:10,014 And this isn't the first time a boundary has been crossed with 47 00:02:10,038 --> 00:02:11,508 this particular person. 48 00:02:11,708 --> 00:02:15,178 And so, the primary thing I say when we're really not getting 49 00:02:15,378 --> 00:02:17,848 along and I'm really struggling to establish boundaries or 50 00:02:18,048 --> 00:02:20,888 feeling like boundaries are not being honored is to say, 51 00:02:21,088 --> 00:02:23,348 "Let's move apart." 52 00:02:23,548 --> 00:02:25,708 "You need to move out" and "Let's move apart" are very 53 00:02:25,888 --> 00:02:27,858 - different energies. - - Yeah, okay, okay. 54 00:02:28,058 --> 00:02:30,018 "You need to move out." 55 00:02:32,148 --> 00:02:34,028 My experience was a little different. 56 00:02:34,228 --> 00:02:36,238 - Tell me. - Um... 57 00:02:36,438 --> 00:02:38,698 That person, they had gotten their period, 58 00:02:38,898 --> 00:02:41,578 they weren't feeling well, I asked them if they wanted weed. 59 00:02:41,778 --> 00:02:43,578 It was a literal four-second interaction, 60 00:02:43,778 --> 00:02:47,878 like, boom, boom, "Bye," 'cause I was so afraid of 61 00:02:48,078 --> 00:02:50,248 what it would create in the home. 62 00:02:50,448 --> 00:02:52,088 I said, "Hey, this is what happened," 63 00:02:52,288 --> 00:02:54,264 and then immediately... "You need to move out." 64 00:02:54,288 --> 00:02:57,548 I mean, the energy was not calm and cool and collected. 65 00:02:57,748 --> 00:02:59,234 And mind you, I'm, like, in the bathtub, 66 00:02:59,258 --> 00:03:00,604 so, like, I'm, like, trying to, like, 67 00:03:00,628 --> 00:03:03,098 have a conversation and trying to relax or whatever. 68 00:03:03,298 --> 00:03:05,564 So then it's just, like, this very intense conversation, 69 00:03:05,588 --> 00:03:06,774 and it even... like, the way it... 70 00:03:06,798 --> 00:03:08,268 What happens in the conversation? 71 00:03:08,468 --> 00:03:10,114 You know, I was like, "My feelings are growing deeper," 72 00:03:10,138 --> 00:03:12,898 and... and I expressed all that, so I couldn't understand why 73 00:03:13,098 --> 00:03:13,608 - she... - "My feelings are...?" 74 00:03:13,808 --> 00:03:14,898 For the other person. 75 00:03:15,098 --> 00:03:15,528 More than that. 76 00:03:15,728 --> 00:03:17,908 There were very particular words that were said. 77 00:03:18,108 --> 00:03:20,158 - Okay. - Like? 78 00:03:21,988 --> 00:03:23,964 I might be... like, it might be a love thing, you know? 79 00:03:23,988 --> 00:03:25,254 - That I might be feeling. - Mm-hm. 80 00:03:25,278 --> 00:03:28,748 And then, um, I feel like I can't even, um... 81 00:03:28,948 --> 00:03:31,918 I don't know what to do with myself with how I'm feeling 82 00:03:32,118 --> 00:03:34,588 towards this person, what it's creating in the home. 83 00:03:34,788 --> 00:03:37,638 Which does what to you? 84 00:03:37,838 --> 00:03:41,138 I feel like I... Like I'm a bad partner, 85 00:03:41,338 --> 00:03:42,858 I'm a bad lover, I'm a bad everything, 86 00:03:43,008 --> 00:03:46,638 and all I do is hurt people, and this is what I'm doing to her. 87 00:03:46,838 --> 00:03:48,484 And it was literally like going under the water, 88 00:03:48,508 --> 00:03:52,268 'cause I felt like I had no... place. 89 00:03:52,478 --> 00:03:54,318 - You had nowhere to go... - Yes. 90 00:03:54,518 --> 00:03:58,158 Where you didn't feel Christine's feelings. 91 00:03:58,358 --> 00:03:58,928 Yeah. 92 00:03:59,128 --> 00:04:02,448 And sometimes, it almost feels like you're responding in a 93 00:04:02,648 --> 00:04:05,448 disproportionate way, because I feel like you don't like this 94 00:04:05,648 --> 00:04:06,998 process at all. 95 00:04:07,198 --> 00:04:10,288 Like, you don't want to be open, you don't want to be poly, 96 00:04:10,488 --> 00:04:12,958 you hate it, and now, like, I'm just having to, like, 97 00:04:13,158 --> 00:04:17,298 sit here with you hating my... this relationship. 98 00:04:17,498 --> 00:04:18,088 If I may? 99 00:04:18,288 --> 00:04:21,798 Sometimes, I feel like I have to over-exaggerate my response to 100 00:04:21,998 --> 00:04:23,308 say, "This is a boundary. 101 00:04:23,508 --> 00:04:25,828 We cannot keep pushing them, we cannot keep crossing them. 102 00:04:26,008 --> 00:04:27,808 "I do not feel safe when that happens." 103 00:04:28,008 --> 00:04:31,188 And it's mostly based in fear and grief, I feel, 104 00:04:31,388 --> 00:04:33,688 and a devastating amount of grief. 105 00:04:33,888 --> 00:04:35,358 - But... - Stay... 106 00:04:35,558 --> 00:04:36,128 Tell me about that. 107 00:04:36,328 --> 00:04:38,858 Uh, just in the sense of her having feelings for 108 00:04:39,058 --> 00:04:40,318 someone else. 109 00:04:40,518 --> 00:04:41,958 When you say I'm not okay with open, 110 00:04:42,068 --> 00:04:43,488 that's no longer true. 111 00:04:43,688 --> 00:04:45,248 But I thought it would be more playful. 112 00:04:45,398 --> 00:04:47,328 I didn't think it would be as serious as it is, 113 00:04:47,528 --> 00:04:50,168 where we have committed relationships with other people. 114 00:04:50,368 --> 00:04:51,668 And whatever you have said, 115 00:04:51,868 --> 00:04:53,668 I say... I might struggle with it, 116 00:04:53,868 --> 00:04:55,674 but I'm always like, "Okay, let's do it" because I love you. 117 00:04:55,698 --> 00:04:57,434 I was also concerned that if I were to do that, 118 00:04:57,458 --> 00:04:58,724 you'd be like, "Okay, well, you're not gonna see" 119 00:04:58,748 --> 00:05:00,684 - "them on the next day." - I'm not a crazy person! 120 00:05:00,708 --> 00:05:01,708 - Christine! - No... 121 00:05:01,878 --> 00:05:02,338 I don't think you're a crazy person... 122 00:05:02,548 --> 00:05:03,048 But hold on. 123 00:05:03,248 --> 00:05:06,558 But let's say Christine says, "If you're gonna do this", 124 00:05:06,758 --> 00:05:09,348 if you wanna go see her today or them today, 125 00:05:09,548 --> 00:05:11,228 "I don't want you to see them tomorrow," 126 00:05:11,428 --> 00:05:12,628 what is the problem with that? 127 00:05:12,718 --> 00:05:14,404 I think I wanted to do what I wanted to do. 128 00:05:14,428 --> 00:05:16,228 Okay. So there's... 129 00:05:16,428 --> 00:05:18,858 And that's a theme of our relationship, I feel like. 130 00:05:19,058 --> 00:05:20,744 I want to feel like a priority, but sometimes, 131 00:05:20,768 --> 00:05:23,368 I feel like, um, I can't ask for anything, 132 00:05:23,568 --> 00:05:25,928 and even if you're violating our own agreements that we're 133 00:05:26,108 --> 00:05:27,868 making, you still do what you want! 134 00:05:28,068 --> 00:05:30,078 And I have to acquiesce constantly! 135 00:05:30,278 --> 00:05:32,248 Just like, "Whatever, what can I do? 136 00:05:32,448 --> 00:05:34,708 Oh, that's Nadine, she's just gonna do her thing." 137 00:05:36,748 --> 00:05:37,908 - Can I... - Yeah, please go. 138 00:05:37,958 --> 00:05:39,594 Ask the two of you to pause for a second? 139 00:05:39,618 --> 00:05:41,048 - You said a lot. - - Yeah. 140 00:05:41,248 --> 00:05:42,928 Meaningful stuff. 141 00:05:43,128 --> 00:05:45,598 First of all, how are you feeling just hearing it? 142 00:05:45,798 --> 00:05:48,888 I feel like when you tell me you want structure and... 143 00:05:49,088 --> 00:05:51,098 And predictability, I'm like, "Sweetheart", 144 00:05:51,298 --> 00:05:54,228 that is n... not only has that... not me, 145 00:05:54,428 --> 00:05:54,858 "that has never been me." 146 00:05:55,058 --> 00:05:57,608 I've always been, like, very upfront about that. 147 00:05:57,808 --> 00:05:59,898 Like, I don't even know what I'm gonna do tomorrow. 148 00:06:00,098 --> 00:06:02,778 You know, it's just this kind of thing that I've noticed about 149 00:06:02,978 --> 00:06:03,778 myself. 150 00:06:03,978 --> 00:06:05,294 It just... it moves a lot. And... 151 00:06:05,318 --> 00:06:07,448 What was it like as a little person? 152 00:06:07,648 --> 00:06:09,464 - As a young person? - I don't... I don't know. 153 00:06:09,488 --> 00:06:09,948 Um... 154 00:06:10,148 --> 00:06:11,908 You don't know because you don't remember? 155 00:06:12,108 --> 00:06:13,794 I don't really remember, and what I do remember, 156 00:06:13,818 --> 00:06:15,128 I was just really... 157 00:06:15,328 --> 00:06:16,918 chaotic and unhappy. 158 00:06:17,118 --> 00:06:20,418 What was the chaos early on? 159 00:06:20,618 --> 00:06:22,298 So my parents divorced, they remarried, 160 00:06:22,498 --> 00:06:25,588 they each had two more kids at the same time when I was 10. 161 00:06:25,788 --> 00:06:28,598 That totally disrupted my... 162 00:06:28,798 --> 00:06:31,308 I mean, that upended... many things. 163 00:06:31,508 --> 00:06:32,078 Mm-hm. 164 00:06:32,278 --> 00:06:36,478 And so, I felt like both of my families had a family and I was 165 00:06:36,678 --> 00:06:37,768 not part of either of them. 166 00:06:37,968 --> 00:06:38,478 - Yeah. - Yeah. 167 00:06:38,678 --> 00:06:41,108 And that any time something was wrong in one family, 168 00:06:41,308 --> 00:06:42,664 they would say, "Go to the other family." 169 00:06:42,688 --> 00:06:44,938 Same, just like that. 170 00:06:45,238 --> 00:06:48,448 - So kind of displaced... - - Yes. 171 00:06:48,648 --> 00:06:49,658 Homeless... 172 00:06:49,858 --> 00:06:51,948 Oh, emotionally just totally discarded, yeah. 173 00:06:52,148 --> 00:06:53,788 Yeah. 174 00:06:58,118 --> 00:06:59,458 Sorry I said you had to move out. 175 00:06:59,658 --> 00:07:00,458 No, you're fine. What? 176 00:07:00,658 --> 00:07:01,088 Oh, that's okay. 177 00:07:01,288 --> 00:07:03,338 Sorry, I said you had to move out; How terrible! 178 00:07:03,538 --> 00:07:03,968 Mm-hm. 179 00:07:04,168 --> 00:07:06,008 Yeah, I'm just, like, being your parent again. 180 00:07:06,168 --> 00:07:07,168 Yeah. 181 00:07:07,208 --> 00:07:08,638 And I feel like I can't escape. 182 00:07:08,838 --> 00:07:10,508 - Oh, man. - You can't escape...? 183 00:07:10,708 --> 00:07:12,638 Feeling unwanted, feeling like, "Godda... ". 184 00:07:12,838 --> 00:07:16,018 Like, if I feel a touch of, like, "Someone doesn't want me" 185 00:07:16,218 --> 00:07:19,478 "in this space," like, that'll just set me off. 186 00:07:19,678 --> 00:07:21,534 Not in, like, an explosive way, but just, like, I'll leave; 187 00:07:21,558 --> 00:07:23,488 I don't wanna be there. 188 00:07:23,688 --> 00:07:25,244 Especially when I don't know what I'm doing! 189 00:07:25,268 --> 00:07:27,828 I do not know what I'm doing, I don't know... I feel like so many 190 00:07:27,858 --> 00:07:29,664 people are trying to be open and polyamorous and all these 191 00:07:29,688 --> 00:07:33,698 things, and I don't know how to navigate it. 192 00:07:33,898 --> 00:07:38,808 What is motivating the two of you 193 00:07:39,008 --> 00:07:40,378 to be together? 194 00:07:40,578 --> 00:07:41,878 Oh! 195 00:07:42,078 --> 00:07:45,238 Um, okay, um... 196 00:07:45,438 --> 00:07:48,678 I love... 197 00:07:48,878 --> 00:07:50,354 everything that she brings to my life. 198 00:07:50,378 --> 00:07:52,678 I mean, totally as if she took... 199 00:07:52,878 --> 00:07:55,064 Like, as if I was like this, and then she gave me glasses, 200 00:07:55,088 --> 00:07:58,348 and I was like... I... I felt like I could see the world. 201 00:07:58,548 --> 00:07:59,864 And there's no one I'd rather talk to, 202 00:07:59,888 --> 00:08:01,244 there's no one I'd rather bounce ide... 203 00:08:01,268 --> 00:08:02,268 Like, you know? 204 00:08:02,308 --> 00:08:04,568 It's just really rich, um, and, like, 205 00:08:04,768 --> 00:08:08,528 deeply spiritual and connected and, uh, like... 206 00:08:08,728 --> 00:08:11,198 I feel that, like, deeply in every cell of my body. 207 00:08:11,398 --> 00:08:14,368 Like, there's no mistake about that. 208 00:08:14,568 --> 00:08:16,408 And, um, I feel like she's supposed to be in my 209 00:08:16,448 --> 00:08:17,968 life, or I want her, at the very least, 210 00:08:18,118 --> 00:08:21,748 to be in my life, um, in a long-term way. 211 00:08:21,948 --> 00:08:23,788 Mm-hm. 212 00:08:24,538 --> 00:08:29,628 Upbeat music. 213 00:08:37,848 --> 00:08:42,848 I can't get enough of you. 214 00:08:44,018 --> 00:08:49,028 I can't get enough of you. 215 00:08:50,238 --> 00:08:55,198 Where did you come from? 216 00:08:56,368 --> 00:09:01,368 I can't get enough of you. 217 00:09:02,578 --> 00:09:07,588 I can't get enough of you. 218 00:09:08,748 --> 00:09:13,828 Where did you come from? 219 00:09:18,258 --> 00:09:21,648 How did you feel after our last session? 220 00:09:21,848 --> 00:09:26,148 Felt like we wasted an hour that we could have used 221 00:09:26,348 --> 00:09:29,108 to get somewhere in our relationship. 222 00:09:29,308 --> 00:09:31,108 We don't get anywhere arguing, 223 00:09:31,308 --> 00:09:34,618 which is why I put my boundaries in place, 224 00:09:34,818 --> 00:09:37,288 because if we can't have a healthy conversation, 225 00:09:37,488 --> 00:09:40,238 it's just detrimental. 226 00:09:40,658 --> 00:09:43,788 I wanna take a pause from this and just ask the two of you a 227 00:09:43,988 --> 00:09:46,128 little bit about your early history. 228 00:09:46,328 --> 00:09:46,668 Mm-hm. 229 00:09:46,868 --> 00:09:48,838 Just to get a sense of who you are. 230 00:09:49,038 --> 00:09:50,644 - Just growing up and... - You gonna go first, or me? 231 00:09:50,668 --> 00:09:52,738 Sure, uh... 232 00:09:52,938 --> 00:09:55,968 I experienced a lot of loss... 233 00:09:56,168 --> 00:09:58,138 at a early age. 234 00:09:58,338 --> 00:10:03,018 My mom's dad was sick at the same time as my mom, 235 00:10:03,218 --> 00:10:06,148 and so he died November of 2000, 236 00:10:06,348 --> 00:10:08,858 and then she died February of 2001. 237 00:10:09,058 --> 00:10:10,058 Wow. 238 00:10:10,098 --> 00:10:11,488 - So... - And you were young? 239 00:10:11,688 --> 00:10:13,818 I was 18 when they both got sick, 240 00:10:14,018 --> 00:10:16,198 and I had just graduated from high school and I was... 241 00:10:16,398 --> 00:10:17,698 What was her condition? 242 00:10:17,898 --> 00:10:19,038 She had bone marrow cancer. 243 00:10:19,238 --> 00:10:20,238 Yeah. 244 00:10:20,398 --> 00:10:22,538 What happened to you when they both died? 245 00:10:22,738 --> 00:10:24,998 Um, I had a huge hole. 246 00:10:25,198 --> 00:10:25,998 Yeah. 247 00:10:26,198 --> 00:10:27,208 Just a... 248 00:10:27,408 --> 00:10:28,884 it's a void that's never gonna be filled. 249 00:10:28,908 --> 00:10:29,668 Right. 250 00:10:29,868 --> 00:10:32,338 And so for me, I don't... 251 00:10:32,538 --> 00:10:34,718 I look at Erica and I'm like, 252 00:10:34,918 --> 00:10:39,348 "Man, I would absolutely hate to not have her in my life." 253 00:10:39,548 --> 00:10:41,854 But at the same time, if I make her miserable and unhappy, 254 00:10:41,878 --> 00:10:44,348 "I would hate to be..." 255 00:10:44,548 --> 00:10:45,898 Wait, how... how did we... 256 00:10:46,098 --> 00:10:47,534 - I... I mean, just... - Jump to that? 257 00:10:47,558 --> 00:10:49,188 - I'm lost. - - 258 00:10:49,388 --> 00:10:51,688 started to sense, like, 259 00:10:51,888 --> 00:10:54,908 what you've been through and... 260 00:10:55,108 --> 00:10:56,738 - this hole that you... - - Mm-hm. 261 00:10:56,938 --> 00:10:58,528 Were left with. 262 00:10:58,728 --> 00:11:02,658 And then you turned to Erica to talk about Erica. 263 00:11:03,328 --> 00:11:05,708 Erica... 264 00:11:05,908 --> 00:11:09,088 I wanna know more of what happened to you. 265 00:11:09,288 --> 00:11:13,048 I don't wanna sit here and dwell on... 266 00:11:13,248 --> 00:11:14,758 what can't be changed. 267 00:11:14,958 --> 00:11:16,388 But what are you saying with that? 268 00:11:16,588 --> 00:11:20,928 She cares more about punishing me for the ways that I have hurt 269 00:11:21,128 --> 00:11:22,888 her... 270 00:11:23,088 --> 00:11:24,428 than anything. 271 00:11:24,638 --> 00:11:27,398 So it's like, for me, okay, you're... you're going back to 272 00:11:27,598 --> 00:11:30,898 the same thing that you've been mad at me about for the last six 273 00:11:31,098 --> 00:11:33,284 months, and we just had a great day and we've been having a 274 00:11:33,308 --> 00:11:36,448 great evening, but now, I gotta hear about this again. 275 00:11:36,648 --> 00:11:38,618 I guess I don't know if he understands, like, 276 00:11:38,818 --> 00:11:43,828 how deeply-rooted that he has damaged... 277 00:11:44,238 --> 00:11:47,078 our relationship and me... Me within the relationship. 278 00:11:47,278 --> 00:11:48,278 Mm-hm. 279 00:11:48,328 --> 00:11:49,788 Not even by the sex act, per se, 280 00:11:49,988 --> 00:11:51,304 but just by the level of betrayal. 281 00:11:51,328 --> 00:11:53,418 Like, you lied to me in my face, 282 00:11:53,618 --> 00:11:58,298 and I don't deserve to be pissed on and treated the way you did 283 00:11:58,498 --> 00:12:00,718 - to me. - Who does? 284 00:12:01,048 --> 00:12:03,098 I get it; I did what I did. 285 00:12:03,298 --> 00:12:04,808 But you talk... 286 00:12:05,008 --> 00:12:06,018 So stop belittling it! 287 00:12:06,218 --> 00:12:07,898 I'm not belittling it! But it's the same... 288 00:12:08,008 --> 00:12:09,248 Sean, there is a way... I mean, 289 00:12:09,348 --> 00:12:11,478 that's what I was trying to get at last session. 290 00:12:11,678 --> 00:12:13,438 Okay, so... 291 00:12:13,638 --> 00:12:17,818 You don't seem to be moved by how much pain you've caused, 292 00:12:18,018 --> 00:12:19,988 because you're asking Erica to say, 293 00:12:20,188 --> 00:12:23,238 "This is... everything is great." 294 00:12:24,118 --> 00:12:24,718 I'm not! 295 00:12:24,918 --> 00:12:27,118 Meanwhile, there's something that, at least for Erica, 296 00:12:27,158 --> 00:12:29,618 is really hurting her. 297 00:12:30,118 --> 00:12:32,668 You can say again and again and again, 298 00:12:32,868 --> 00:12:35,798 "We have a great marriage," but you're doing things that are 299 00:12:35,998 --> 00:12:37,298 hurting Erica. 300 00:12:37,498 --> 00:12:38,778 I did do things that hurt Erica. 301 00:12:38,878 --> 00:12:40,178 - Yeah! - Yes. 302 00:12:40,378 --> 00:12:41,718 So... 303 00:12:41,918 --> 00:12:45,518 But why is it that we're still talking about things that... 304 00:12:45,718 --> 00:12:49,978 Well, from what I'm seeing, there's some kind of repair that 305 00:12:50,178 --> 00:12:51,978 is not happening. 306 00:12:52,178 --> 00:12:54,324 There's not an answer that I'm gonna give her that's gonna make 307 00:12:54,348 --> 00:12:56,028 her feel better about what I did. 308 00:12:56,228 --> 00:12:59,988 Right, but just to try to stay more to the point here, 309 00:13:00,188 --> 00:13:01,528 something needs to be repaired. 310 00:13:01,728 --> 00:13:02,728 Yeah. 311 00:13:02,858 --> 00:13:05,828 You can't repair with that attitude. 312 00:13:06,028 --> 00:13:10,328 You can repair by truly imagining 313 00:13:10,528 --> 00:13:14,378 what kind of damage or hurt you've caused the other person 314 00:13:14,578 --> 00:13:17,508 and finding a way to open yourself up to feeling some kind 315 00:13:17,708 --> 00:13:19,338 - of remorse. - Mm-hm. 316 00:13:19,538 --> 00:13:20,878 That's where repair comes from. 317 00:13:21,078 --> 00:13:22,908 Mm-hm. 318 00:13:23,108 --> 00:13:25,058 But that's her attitude. 319 00:13:25,258 --> 00:13:26,058 What do you mean? 320 00:13:26,258 --> 00:13:27,718 I mean that's her attitude. 321 00:13:27,928 --> 00:13:29,388 - Towards you? - Yes. 322 00:13:29,588 --> 00:13:32,018 Well, from what I've seen here, that has been your attitude. 323 00:13:32,218 --> 00:13:32,688 You might be doing something... 324 00:13:32,888 --> 00:13:36,568 Well, you're seeing me six months of being badgered, 325 00:13:36,768 --> 00:13:38,028 - punched on... - - Mm-hm. 326 00:13:38,228 --> 00:13:40,188 On repeat. 327 00:13:40,818 --> 00:13:43,698 My impression is that there's some way that you're not 328 00:13:43,898 --> 00:13:45,528 bringing yourself to the table. 329 00:13:45,728 --> 00:13:49,268 I... I don't know how else I can bring myself to the table. 330 00:13:49,468 --> 00:13:51,748 Every time that topic comes up... 331 00:13:53,408 --> 00:13:56,748 It turns into a drag-out argument because my answers 332 00:13:56,948 --> 00:13:59,258 don't make her feel better. 333 00:13:59,458 --> 00:14:01,758 It doesn't fix a problem, it makes for more of an issue. 334 00:14:01,958 --> 00:14:04,428 Maybe I want Sean to tell me actually what the role I did 335 00:14:04,628 --> 00:14:07,928 play in his cheating, because I think I need to understand that. 336 00:14:08,128 --> 00:14:11,558 My infidelity was me being selfish. 337 00:14:11,758 --> 00:14:16,268 The only role you played in that is that in our previous 338 00:14:16,468 --> 00:14:18,568 - conversations that we've had... - No, that's bull. 339 00:14:18,768 --> 00:14:22,948 About what is and isn't okay, you have said things that have 340 00:14:23,148 --> 00:14:26,948 led me to believe I was able to give myself more leeway than I 341 00:14:27,148 --> 00:14:28,288 typically would. 342 00:14:28,488 --> 00:14:29,848 That's bullshit and you know that. 343 00:14:29,948 --> 00:14:31,228 - I just... - It's not, it's not! 344 00:14:31,318 --> 00:14:32,758 You're... you're on some other level. 345 00:14:32,948 --> 00:14:33,538 And it's not! 346 00:14:33,738 --> 00:14:39,038 People do announce that their relationship has a component of 347 00:14:39,328 --> 00:14:42,468 non-monogamy... what they "ethical non-monogamy," 348 00:14:42,668 --> 00:14:44,128 - where they're honest. - - Mm-hm. 349 00:14:44,328 --> 00:14:45,588 Why not that? 350 00:14:45,788 --> 00:14:48,028 If we were to say that's what our relationship is on... 351 00:14:48,168 --> 00:14:48,718 Mm-hm. 352 00:14:48,918 --> 00:14:51,308 I would still have the same code of silence that I have 353 00:14:51,508 --> 00:14:53,268 always had. 354 00:14:53,468 --> 00:14:56,808 But code of silence is different than being honest. 355 00:14:57,008 --> 00:14:57,768 Mm-hm. 356 00:14:57,968 --> 00:14:59,938 Right, that's dishonesty. 357 00:15:00,138 --> 00:15:03,108 No, it's not, because when you asked the appropriate question, 358 00:15:03,308 --> 00:15:05,028 - did I not answer it? - No, Sean, come on. 359 00:15:05,148 --> 00:15:06,704 - Let's not do... - - No, I'm just saying. 360 00:15:06,728 --> 00:15:09,288 I'm never gonna be somebody who goes out and sleeps with another 361 00:15:09,358 --> 00:15:11,828 woman and wants to come home and talk about it with my wife. 362 00:15:12,028 --> 00:15:14,288 That's just... nah. 363 00:15:14,488 --> 00:15:18,498 I don't care about what you're doing when you are not with me, 364 00:15:18,698 --> 00:15:20,979 so if you're gonna do it, be prepared to take it to your 365 00:15:21,158 --> 00:15:22,838 grave, 'cause I don't wanna hear about it. 366 00:15:23,038 --> 00:15:27,338 What I don't know is not going to piss me off. 367 00:15:27,538 --> 00:15:32,138 Melancholy music. 368 00:15:32,338 --> 00:15:33,348 Thank you. 369 00:15:33,548 --> 00:15:35,478 Much better session! 370 00:15:35,678 --> 00:15:37,478 Have a good one, thank you. 371 00:15:44,978 --> 00:15:48,028 I could not get any traction. 372 00:15:48,228 --> 00:15:52,488 Whenever the focus is on him in a way that requires of him to 373 00:15:52,688 --> 00:15:56,668 own him causing distress, 374 00:15:56,868 --> 00:15:59,378 he can't really show up for that. 375 00:15:59,578 --> 00:16:00,168 Yeah. 376 00:16:00,368 --> 00:16:02,878 There's never been a moment in which I saw him kind of pause 377 00:16:03,078 --> 00:16:07,458 and say, "I can see that would be hurtful." 378 00:16:08,338 --> 00:16:10,178 - Ever. - Yeah. 379 00:16:10,378 --> 00:16:14,058 I feel frustrated with him for not engaging in actual 380 00:16:14,258 --> 00:16:15,848 - self-reflection. - - Right. 381 00:16:16,048 --> 00:16:19,728 I feel kind of at the limits of just my technique. 382 00:16:19,928 --> 00:16:22,228 I mean, there must be other ways to work with this that 383 00:16:22,428 --> 00:16:24,228 are... other therapists can do. 384 00:16:24,428 --> 00:16:26,028 I don't know how to work with this. 385 00:16:26,228 --> 00:16:27,568 Then I would say so. 386 00:16:27,768 --> 00:16:30,368 "So the only thing I can see is that we need to sadly say" 387 00:16:30,568 --> 00:16:33,538 goodbye because I can't help you in this way. 388 00:16:33,738 --> 00:16:38,418 Or I need you to take a chance on me 389 00:16:38,618 --> 00:16:42,378 and not fight me so hard and let me see if I can find you, 390 00:16:42,578 --> 00:16:44,248 'cause right now, I don't have you. 391 00:16:44,448 --> 00:16:46,008 "I haven't found you; I don't know you." 392 00:16:46,118 --> 00:16:47,588 Mm-hm. 393 00:16:47,788 --> 00:16:49,378 Mellow quirky music. 394 00:17:11,738 --> 00:17:15,408 Kristi is the most creative, 395 00:17:15,608 --> 00:17:18,078 like, honestly smartest person I know. 396 00:17:18,278 --> 00:17:23,208 She is incredibly connected, and it's a beautiful thing, 397 00:17:23,618 --> 00:17:26,628 like, what an empath she is. 398 00:17:26,828 --> 00:17:31,758 And at the same time, she really, really hurt me. 399 00:17:35,218 --> 00:17:37,468 I had a red line for our marriage, 400 00:17:37,668 --> 00:17:40,808 and she knew the red line, 'cause I told her. 401 00:17:41,008 --> 00:17:41,618 Mm-hm. 402 00:17:41,818 --> 00:17:46,728 Like, "Look, like, if we decide to open this together, right?" 403 00:17:47,938 --> 00:17:51,108 He is... he... you... you cannot be with him." 404 00:17:51,308 --> 00:17:51,548 Mm-hm. 405 00:17:51,748 --> 00:17:53,278 "Like, that will screw me up." 406 00:17:53,478 --> 00:17:54,818 Like, that will fuck me up. 407 00:17:55,028 --> 00:17:56,964 "Like, I don't know how I'm gonna react to that." 408 00:17:56,988 --> 00:17:57,408 Mm-hm. 409 00:17:57,608 --> 00:18:02,168 And I made it incredibly clear, right? 410 00:18:02,368 --> 00:18:05,168 So this guy comes into town. 411 00:18:05,368 --> 00:18:06,128 Mm-hm. 412 00:18:06,328 --> 00:18:08,128 And I didn't bug them. 413 00:18:08,328 --> 00:18:10,568 Like, you guys went to a museum for a long time one day. 414 00:18:10,668 --> 00:18:11,048 The next day... 415 00:18:11,248 --> 00:18:13,338 You had work to do and I had an afternoon! 416 00:18:13,538 --> 00:18:16,178 But the point is, like, you didn't invite me. 417 00:18:16,378 --> 00:18:17,984 - Oh my God... - -That's kind of important, 418 00:18:18,008 --> 00:18:18,348 right? 419 00:18:18,548 --> 00:18:20,308 - And Kristi, like... - Can I... can I... 420 00:18:20,508 --> 00:18:22,308 - Yeah. - Stop you for a second? 421 00:18:22,508 --> 00:18:25,188 Kristi, I want you to try to listen differently... 422 00:18:25,388 --> 00:18:30,308 Not for the facts, for how things really unfolded, 423 00:18:30,518 --> 00:18:32,698 but for Brock's story. 424 00:18:32,898 --> 00:18:36,548 Like, how he experienced it. 425 00:18:36,748 --> 00:18:41,198 It's more interesting than the actual sequence of events. 426 00:18:41,398 --> 00:18:45,748 It's like how each person really felt it from within. 427 00:18:48,498 --> 00:18:50,288 Okay. 428 00:18:51,038 --> 00:18:55,838 Okay, so anyway, the sequence of events after that is 429 00:18:56,038 --> 00:18:59,888 blurry, but two days later, 430 00:19:00,088 --> 00:19:02,018 he slept with Kristi. 431 00:19:02,218 --> 00:19:03,218 Mm-hm. 432 00:19:03,258 --> 00:19:06,518 And, like... 433 00:19:06,718 --> 00:19:10,568 I just remember weirdly, like, three feelings... 434 00:19:10,768 --> 00:19:14,528 Like, very... it's a very strange mix. 435 00:19:14,728 --> 00:19:18,528 Like, I remember being so angry at her. 436 00:19:19,028 --> 00:19:23,038 I remember still, like, loving her, 437 00:19:23,238 --> 00:19:25,418 which I was confused by. 438 00:19:25,618 --> 00:19:30,248 And then, the next day, like, I just felt... 439 00:19:30,448 --> 00:19:31,628 free. 440 00:19:31,828 --> 00:19:35,588 It was like I no longer had to, like, care for her. 441 00:19:35,788 --> 00:19:38,258 I no longer had to care what her opinions were. 442 00:19:38,458 --> 00:19:39,258 Mm-hm. 443 00:19:39,458 --> 00:19:42,718 And that's when I was like, "Okay", 444 00:19:42,918 --> 00:19:45,058 then we just opened the marriage." 445 00:19:45,258 --> 00:19:47,938 Like, I was not gonna have "No" for an answer at this point. 446 00:19:48,138 --> 00:19:51,568 It was like, you know, "No, we're doing this now," 447 00:19:51,768 --> 00:19:52,768 right? 448 00:19:52,928 --> 00:19:55,608 That was, like, a really bad time, 449 00:19:55,808 --> 00:20:00,738 because I was a horrible husband... 450 00:20:01,158 --> 00:20:05,118 but I also felt incredibly powerful. 451 00:20:05,318 --> 00:20:09,128 Like, I felt like, "I am finally in control." 452 00:20:09,328 --> 00:20:12,418 And so I went on some dates. 453 00:20:12,618 --> 00:20:14,418 I was intimate with someone. 454 00:20:14,618 --> 00:20:15,188 Um... 455 00:20:15,388 --> 00:20:19,258 it's an interesting feeling, after 15 years of being with one 456 00:20:19,458 --> 00:20:22,638 person, to go out with other people and realize, 457 00:20:22,838 --> 00:20:23,968 "Oh, like, hey! 458 00:20:24,168 --> 00:20:28,598 Like, I... I am really kind of a likable guy," 459 00:20:28,798 --> 00:20:30,608 - you know? - Mm-hm. 460 00:20:30,808 --> 00:20:33,438 And so she got really uncomfortable, 461 00:20:33,638 --> 00:20:36,608 so we shut the marriage, 462 00:20:36,808 --> 00:20:40,618 and then I felt, like... 463 00:20:40,818 --> 00:20:42,948 I felt controlled again. 464 00:20:43,148 --> 00:20:46,788 And the anger just, like... it was just so bad. 465 00:20:46,988 --> 00:20:48,348 And I was like, "I want a divorce. 466 00:20:48,528 --> 00:20:49,998 Like, I can't do this." 467 00:20:50,198 --> 00:20:52,628 And she apologized; She said, "Let's give it 30 days." 468 00:20:52,828 --> 00:20:53,998 I said, "Fine." 469 00:20:54,198 --> 00:20:56,128 And then we gave it 30 days. 470 00:20:56,328 --> 00:21:01,258 And then we slowly started to rebuild. 471 00:21:04,758 --> 00:21:06,518 - Can I check in with you? - Mm-hm. 472 00:21:06,718 --> 00:21:09,188 On your end, Kristi, what happened when the two of you 473 00:21:09,388 --> 00:21:12,268 were trying to talk about it? 474 00:21:16,058 --> 00:21:17,688 It was just brutal, just brutal. 475 00:21:17,888 --> 00:21:20,358 I felt like I was trying to, like... 476 00:21:20,558 --> 00:21:24,318 hold our world from blowing apart. 477 00:21:24,528 --> 00:21:26,198 Single-handedly. 478 00:21:26,398 --> 00:21:29,788 'Cause he was on, like, a destruction course. 479 00:21:30,238 --> 00:21:33,038 I felt awful because of what I did. 480 00:21:33,238 --> 00:21:36,128 That was just the worst time in my life. 481 00:21:37,328 --> 00:21:39,718 It sounds very difficult. 482 00:21:39,918 --> 00:21:41,548 Yeah. 483 00:21:41,748 --> 00:21:43,008 Yeah. 484 00:21:43,208 --> 00:21:47,908 Well, can you assess where you are now in terms of, 485 00:21:48,108 --> 00:21:51,388 like, where this sits between the two of you, 486 00:21:51,588 --> 00:21:55,728 and how much do you feel understood and understand each 487 00:21:55,928 --> 00:21:57,398 other? 488 00:21:59,058 --> 00:22:00,574 I don't know how much you realize, like, 489 00:22:00,598 --> 00:22:02,698 how much I think about it. 490 00:22:02,898 --> 00:22:06,408 Like, it's not something that I just... has gone away. 491 00:22:06,608 --> 00:22:08,198 Mm-hm. 492 00:22:08,398 --> 00:22:11,618 Where is it for you? 493 00:22:11,818 --> 00:22:15,588 I do think about it... frequently... 494 00:22:15,788 --> 00:22:17,378 in a different way than Brock. 495 00:22:17,578 --> 00:22:22,498 Like, I think about it as something that I'm really... 496 00:22:23,008 --> 00:22:28,058 proud of us for enduring and for making our way through together. 497 00:22:28,258 --> 00:22:28,768 Mm-hm. 498 00:22:28,968 --> 00:22:31,228 And sometimes, even just, like, hearing you talk... 499 00:22:31,428 --> 00:22:34,768 it sounds crazy but I almost want to thank you. 500 00:22:34,968 --> 00:22:37,228 I'm like, "I freed you. 501 00:22:37,428 --> 00:22:40,438 I freed you from an old way of loving that actually wasn't real 502 00:22:40,638 --> 00:22:42,318 love. 503 00:22:42,568 --> 00:22:45,908 Like, I freed you from a love that was just commitment and 504 00:22:46,108 --> 00:22:48,448 duty, and you do it just because you do, 505 00:22:48,648 --> 00:22:51,828 "and you show up, and that's love." 506 00:22:52,408 --> 00:22:54,958 I know that it was the worst thing that I could have done. 507 00:22:55,158 --> 00:22:57,458 And you're right, I knew that that was your red line. 508 00:22:57,658 --> 00:23:01,588 I knew that all along. 509 00:23:01,788 --> 00:23:03,468 And I still did it. 510 00:23:05,498 --> 00:23:08,928 And I... 511 00:23:09,128 --> 00:23:11,498 am proud of myself! 512 00:23:11,698 --> 00:23:14,268 I don't know how else to say it. 513 00:23:16,678 --> 00:23:18,938 Do you have a reaction? 514 00:23:19,138 --> 00:23:20,318 Yeah. 515 00:23:20,518 --> 00:23:25,378 It's "This is... this is the narrative that is" 516 00:23:25,578 --> 00:23:27,318 impossible for me to accept." 517 00:23:27,518 --> 00:23:32,448 Like, this idea that I'm supposed to thank you 518 00:23:32,658 --> 00:23:35,828 for dancing with the Devil and being so brave, 519 00:23:36,028 --> 00:23:41,038 and doing this horrible thing to me. 520 00:23:43,708 --> 00:23:46,178 It's not like I set out with that intention. 521 00:23:46,378 --> 00:23:49,638 I... I know, but it's... you... 522 00:23:49,838 --> 00:23:54,518 You make yourself out in this narrative to be the hero. 523 00:23:54,718 --> 00:23:58,348 You're totally forgetting that I was ready to explore an open 524 00:23:58,558 --> 00:23:59,558 relationship! 525 00:23:59,678 --> 00:24:03,028 Like, this did not have to happen... 526 00:24:03,228 --> 00:24:06,818 for us to break... 527 00:24:09,648 --> 00:24:11,028 That is hard for me, right? 528 00:24:11,228 --> 00:24:13,658 Because when you say that, 529 00:24:13,858 --> 00:24:17,868 I feel like I kind of got sacrificed. 530 00:24:18,068 --> 00:24:18,498 Like... 531 00:24:18,698 --> 00:24:21,208 You also know that it wasn't just about you. 532 00:24:21,408 --> 00:24:22,688 I know it wasn't just about me... 533 00:24:22,748 --> 00:24:24,338 - But you always forget it! - But... 534 00:24:24,538 --> 00:24:27,548 But do you... but before you go back to yourself, 535 00:24:27,748 --> 00:24:32,658 Kristi, can you go in Brock's direction temporarily? 536 00:24:32,858 --> 00:24:35,058 Yeah, no, I see that! 537 00:24:35,258 --> 00:24:40,178 But what's preventing you from expressing it fully? 538 00:24:41,138 --> 00:24:43,398 Just some resentment. 539 00:24:43,598 --> 00:24:46,028 I feel like... 540 00:24:46,228 --> 00:24:49,068 Brock is asking me to grant him understanding that he doesn't 541 00:24:49,268 --> 00:24:51,528 extend my way. 542 00:24:51,728 --> 00:24:55,238 What makes you feel like I don't understand... 543 00:24:55,448 --> 00:24:56,868 your feelings? 544 00:24:57,068 --> 00:25:01,378 'Cause I don't think that you saw how you sacrificed me for 545 00:25:01,578 --> 00:25:04,828 years before any of this even happened! 546 00:25:05,458 --> 00:25:08,878 You're right, I don't... I... I have a very hard time, 547 00:25:09,078 --> 00:25:12,758 like, drawing a parallel 548 00:25:12,958 --> 00:25:14,718 or understanding how I sacrificed you, 549 00:25:14,918 --> 00:25:18,768 because I was there for you, I just went to church. 550 00:25:18,968 --> 00:25:20,558 N... you... Brock... 551 00:25:21,848 --> 00:25:25,778 I was so open with you and so honest 552 00:25:25,978 --> 00:25:30,068 about how the church had hurt me, 553 00:25:30,268 --> 00:25:32,408 how it had been an abuser to me, 554 00:25:32,608 --> 00:25:35,238 and you still fucked with it! 555 00:25:35,438 --> 00:25:37,408 Do you not see how that is a betrayal?! 556 00:25:37,608 --> 00:25:39,958 How I would feel sacrificed in that?! 557 00:25:40,158 --> 00:25:42,288 Like, even just a couple weeks ago at dinner, 558 00:25:42,488 --> 00:25:45,088 we were sharing with some friends about our process of 559 00:25:45,288 --> 00:25:47,134 leaving the church, everything, and Brock says, 560 00:25:47,158 --> 00:25:48,918 "Well, you know, like, Kristi left but, like, 561 00:25:48,958 --> 00:25:51,628 I just really needed to leave for personal reasons." 562 00:25:51,828 --> 00:25:53,798 And I said to you for the first time, like, 563 00:25:53,998 --> 00:25:57,048 "Why was I not a personal reason?" 564 00:25:57,298 --> 00:25:58,808 Why was I not a personal reason?! 565 00:25:59,008 --> 00:26:01,308 Why am I... your wife, your love, your beloved... 566 00:26:01,508 --> 00:26:02,308 Not a personal reason?! 567 00:26:02,508 --> 00:26:04,838 I don't understand that! 568 00:26:09,188 --> 00:26:13,608 Moody piano music. 569 00:26:13,818 --> 00:26:15,988 He begged her not to sleep with that particular 570 00:26:16,188 --> 00:26:17,618 - person. - - Yes. 571 00:26:17,818 --> 00:26:21,498 And I'm seeing how catastrophic that would be if I were him. 572 00:26:21,698 --> 00:26:23,118 Humiliating beyond humiliating. 573 00:26:23,318 --> 00:26:24,788 Yeah. 574 00:26:24,988 --> 00:26:26,788 Why did she do that? 575 00:26:30,538 --> 00:26:33,628 Wrapped in your sheets. 576 00:26:33,838 --> 00:26:37,258 A little longer. 577 00:26:38,298 --> 00:26:43,098 Only dreams to keep me warm. 578 00:26:43,638 --> 00:26:48,978 But there's something in my lungs that makes me wonder. 579 00:26:51,608 --> 00:26:54,358 You ask me where I'll be. 580 00:26:54,558 --> 00:26:57,528 Without him still loving me. 581 00:26:57,728 --> 00:27:00,658 At the end of the night. 582 00:27:00,858 --> 00:27:04,038 At the end of the night. 583 00:27:04,238 --> 00:27:09,248 You'll find I'm sleeping in my own bed, sleeping in my own bed. 584 00:27:10,828 --> 00:27:15,758 You'll find I'm sleeping in my own bed, sleeping in my own bed. 585 00:27:17,338 --> 00:27:22,348 You'll find I'm sleeping in my own bed, sleeping in my own bed. 586 00:27:23,968 --> 00:27:28,978 You'll find I'm sleeping in my own bed, sleeping in my own bed. 587 00:27:30,648 --> 00:27:33,318 And I'd love to be. 588 00:27:34,068 --> 00:27:37,318 With you in autumn. 589 00:27:37,818 --> 00:27:43,158 Like the colors of your soul. 590 00:27:43,988 --> 00:27:47,248 But I feel so green. 591 00:27:47,448 --> 00:27:50,368 My sole reminder. 592 00:27:51,498 --> 00:27:56,508 How I love to paint my own. 593 00:27:57,008 --> 00:28:02,338 Oh, I heard you in the dark when I was lonely... 45578

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