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upbeat funky music
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Let me check out my
face in the mirror.
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You can take off
that stupid bandana.
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00:00:54,721 --> 00:00:55,889
Huh?
5
00:00:55,930 --> 00:00:57,307
Just take off
that stupid bandana.
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I like it,
it's comfortable.
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There you go.
There you go.
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There's
12 years between us.
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Does it feel like
a big difference?
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It didn't--
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It didn't used to.
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Yeah, our first
few years together,
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we didn't-- it
never became an issue,
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and in fact, we almost,
like, bragged about it,
15
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like "There's his huge age
gap, but we're making it work."
16
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Yeah.
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But now, I feel like he
wants to be somewhere else,
18
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doing something else, and a lot
of our conflict comes when we're
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talking about what I
want and what he wants,
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and it's not the same.
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00:01:45,313 --> 00:01:46,731
Mm-hm.
22
00:01:46,773 --> 00:01:50,902
Well, I think what she's
referring to is I spent a year
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00:01:50,944 --> 00:01:52,153
in Korea.
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00:01:52,195 --> 00:01:53,279
Why there?
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00:01:53,321 --> 00:01:55,281
To teach
English overseas.
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00:01:55,323 --> 00:01:57,283
There was a course
I had mentioned,
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00:01:57,325 --> 00:01:58,785
and she was like, "Do you
still have the information about
28
00:01:58,827 --> 00:01:59,953
that course?
29
00:01:59,994 --> 00:02:01,287
And let's sign up for it.
30
00:02:01,329 --> 00:02:04,541
And let's get our, um, ESL
license and let's go do it."
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00:02:04,582 --> 00:02:05,625
For both of you to go teach?
32
00:02:05,667 --> 00:02:06,626
For both of us, yeah.
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00:02:06,668 --> 00:02:07,460
Mm-hm.
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00:02:07,502 --> 00:02:08,711
Uh-huh.
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00:02:08,753 --> 00:02:09,712
So we got
licensed and everything,
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00:02:09,754 --> 00:02:11,256
and we were like,
"Okay, now it's time to go."
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00:02:11,297 --> 00:02:14,134
And so I started
searching for jobs,
38
00:02:14,175 --> 00:02:16,761
and she was dragging her feet,
and she was dragging her feet,
39
00:02:16,803 --> 00:02:20,557
and then that caused
tons of arguments.
40
00:02:20,598 --> 00:02:24,477
What was the crux there?
41
00:02:24,519 --> 00:02:27,772
What I wasn't prepared for
was four months after we got
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00:02:27,814 --> 00:02:32,819
married, that he made
the decision to go and...
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00:02:33,194 --> 00:02:34,154
without me.
44
00:02:34,195 --> 00:02:35,488
We made the
decision to go.
45
00:02:35,530 --> 00:02:36,739
It's another
thing we disagree on.
46
00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:40,493
For me, it was about being
different than the person I used
47
00:02:40,535 --> 00:02:41,953
to be.
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00:02:41,995 --> 00:02:44,497
If I'm honest, a part of me
really didn't want to do it.
49
00:02:44,539 --> 00:02:45,790
I see.
50
00:02:45,832 --> 00:02:48,334
So you were operating with two
different parts of yourself?
51
00:02:48,376 --> 00:02:49,836
Exactly.
52
00:02:49,878 --> 00:02:53,173
The two voices are saying,
"You really wanna support him,"
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00:02:53,214 --> 00:02:55,508
on one hand, but then tell
him he can't go and do what he's
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00:02:55,550 --> 00:02:56,634
been wanting to do.
55
00:02:56,676 --> 00:02:57,635
Mm-hm.
56
00:02:57,677 --> 00:02:58,178
I didn't want to
be that person.
57
00:02:58,219 --> 00:02:59,345
Mm-hm.
58
00:02:59,387 --> 00:03:02,182
But then, the
inner child in me says,
59
00:03:02,223 --> 00:03:04,475
"Wow, you're leaving me.
60
00:03:04,517 --> 00:03:05,894
How are you leaving me?
61
00:03:05,935 --> 00:03:07,937
I don't understand."
62
00:03:07,979 --> 00:03:09,272
So the adult says, "Go!"
63
00:03:09,314 --> 00:03:10,356
Yeah, the
adult says, "Go."
64
00:03:10,398 --> 00:03:12,192
And the child
says, "Don't leave me."
65
00:03:12,233 --> 00:03:13,526
"Don't go,"
yeah, exactly.
66
00:03:13,568 --> 00:03:14,527
Uh-huh.
67
00:03:14,569 --> 00:03:15,820
So I was
aware of that--
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00:03:15,862 --> 00:03:16,696
Confusing.
69
00:03:16,738 --> 00:03:17,197
It's
confusing and--
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00:03:17,238 --> 00:03:17,989
For everyone.
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00:03:18,031 --> 00:03:18,781
Yes, yeah.
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00:03:19,991 --> 00:03:20,533
Yeah, for you and for you.
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00:03:20,575 --> 00:03:20,950
Yes.
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00:03:20,950 --> 00:03:22,202
Extremely confusing.
75
00:03:22,243 --> 00:03:23,703
Mm-hm.
76
00:03:23,745 --> 00:03:26,206
I was under the impression
that we decided as a couple this
77
00:03:26,247 --> 00:03:28,541
would be good for both of us.
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00:03:28,583 --> 00:03:32,212
So I left for Korea
in August of 2019,
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00:03:32,253 --> 00:03:35,715
I came back
September 2020.
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00:03:35,757 --> 00:03:39,052
And upon my return, I'm
finding none of that's true.
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00:03:40,011 --> 00:03:41,387
What did you find?
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00:03:41,429 --> 00:03:43,556
Well, the phrase she
keeps throwing out is
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I came back a stranger.
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00:03:45,808 --> 00:03:47,393
Mm-hm.
85
00:03:47,435 --> 00:03:50,855
I would say I've
grown or evolved.
86
00:03:50,897 --> 00:03:52,440
I had this awesome
experience over there.
87
00:03:52,482 --> 00:03:54,776
How could that not
change you or affect you,
88
00:03:54,817 --> 00:03:56,277
you know?
89
00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:58,238
The reality is we
both have changed.
90
00:03:58,279 --> 00:04:00,573
Mm-hm.
91
00:04:00,615 --> 00:04:03,243
So he came
back in September,
92
00:04:03,284 --> 00:04:06,204
and when he came off the
plane, he didn't hug me,
93
00:04:06,246 --> 00:04:07,830
he didn't kiss me,
and he was just like,
94
00:04:07,872 --> 00:04:10,541
"Eh, this feels so weird,
everything feels weird."
95
00:04:10,583 --> 00:04:11,960
And okay,
fine, you know?
96
00:04:12,001 --> 00:04:14,254
He needs time to adjust.
97
00:04:14,295 --> 00:04:17,048
But I don't think he appreciates
that what I was seeing was a
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00:04:17,090 --> 00:04:20,677
stranger, and that, in
turn, affected our intimacy.
99
00:04:20,718 --> 00:04:22,262
Like, we used to
have a great sex life.
100
00:04:22,303 --> 00:04:24,430
Now, we have no sex life.
101
00:04:24,472 --> 00:04:25,223
And that's--
102
00:04:25,265 --> 00:04:25,890
Well--
103
00:04:25,932 --> 00:04:27,016
Hm?
Why?
104
00:04:27,058 --> 00:04:28,017
Yeah...
105
00:04:28,059 --> 00:04:29,769
I don't know, ask him.
106
00:04:29,811 --> 00:04:31,271
What do you think?
107
00:04:31,312 --> 00:04:36,276
I feel like she's
putting this on me.
108
00:04:36,317 --> 00:04:38,236
That whatever this
no sex thing is,
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00:04:38,278 --> 00:04:42,615
it's all for me to
figure out on my own.
110
00:04:42,657 --> 00:04:46,286
And you better do it quick,
'cause I'm losing patience.
111
00:04:46,327 --> 00:04:49,122
One of the reasons why I
married him was because I
112
00:04:49,163 --> 00:04:50,415
thought he was
gonna be my playmate,
113
00:04:50,456 --> 00:04:51,916
I thought he
was going to be
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00:04:51,958 --> 00:04:54,294
my partner in
that sense, right?
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00:04:54,335 --> 00:04:56,671
I thought we were going to
have an open marriage and open
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00:04:56,713 --> 00:04:58,298
communication and
blah blah blah,
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00:04:58,339 --> 00:05:01,259
and you've been
anything but open with me.
118
00:05:01,301 --> 00:05:04,470
He disappointed me on
such a fucking level,
119
00:05:04,512 --> 00:05:06,472
and now we're not
even having sex,
120
00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:07,598
and if we're not
gonna have sex anymore,
121
00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,101
then I don't
want to be married.
122
00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:13,313
But maybe, Ping,
it sounds like something
123
00:05:13,354 --> 00:05:16,441
about the
experience...
124
00:05:16,482 --> 00:05:21,487
of this departure -- of
this leaving -- has hurt you,
125
00:05:21,529 --> 00:05:25,658
you're speaking from a place
of desperation and a deep worry,
126
00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:30,496
but what's
ultimately coming out is,
127
00:05:30,538 --> 00:05:33,291
um, intimidation.
128
00:05:33,333 --> 00:05:34,834
Hm.
129
00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:36,919
And that aggression
kind of creates the opposite of
130
00:05:36,961 --> 00:05:39,339
what you're needing.
131
00:05:39,505 --> 00:05:43,343
So what you need to
do, then, is kind of...
132
00:05:43,384 --> 00:05:45,511
tame your dragon...
133
00:05:46,054 --> 00:05:49,974
and move it in a
slightly different direction--
134
00:05:50,016 --> 00:05:51,100
I've been trying, yeah.
135
00:05:51,142 --> 00:05:53,102
So you still have
those strong feelings,
136
00:05:53,144 --> 00:05:57,815
but they indeed go towards
passion rather than aggression.
137
00:05:57,857 --> 00:05:59,150
Yeah, he calls it "Grendel."
138
00:05:59,192 --> 00:05:59,984
He named it.
139
00:06:00,026 --> 00:06:01,736
You called it "Grendel."
140
00:06:01,778 --> 00:06:03,488
That's her dragon,
that's her Grendel.
141
00:06:05,114 --> 00:06:06,657
And she always talks about how
the Grendel's there to protect
142
00:06:06,699 --> 00:06:08,159
the little girl inside.
143
00:06:08,201 --> 00:06:10,078
Mm-hm.
144
00:06:10,119 --> 00:06:12,121
The few times
she has been able to
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00:06:12,163 --> 00:06:13,539
open up and
I've seen her
146
00:06:13,581 --> 00:06:15,666
vulnerability, and I've
seen that desperation,
147
00:06:15,708 --> 00:06:18,503
I've seen that fear...
148
00:06:18,544 --> 00:06:20,463
it instantly melts
my heart, you know?
149
00:06:20,505 --> 00:06:22,882
And...
150
00:06:22,924 --> 00:06:24,717
I feel it too,
and I just want to,
151
00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:27,470
like, comfort her, and I
feel like those times,
152
00:06:27,512 --> 00:06:30,306
we instantly connect.
153
00:06:30,348 --> 00:06:33,142
But it's so rare
that happens that way.
154
00:06:33,184 --> 00:06:34,519
So rare it
happens that way.
155
00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,396
Yeah.
156
00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:44,404
upbeat music
157
00:06:59,627 --> 00:07:01,504
Whoa!
158
00:07:13,182 --> 00:07:14,016
Hello, Orna.
159
00:07:14,058 --> 00:07:16,519
Hey.
160
00:07:16,561 --> 00:07:19,522
Oh, oh,
you're excited, okay.
161
00:07:19,564 --> 00:07:21,607
Hi.
162
00:07:21,858 --> 00:07:23,526
They're always drawn to you.
163
00:07:23,568 --> 00:07:24,569
All the time.
164
00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:25,361
Yeah?
165
00:07:25,403 --> 00:07:26,237
All the time.
166
00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:26,696
Really?
167
00:07:26,696 --> 00:07:28,364
All the time,
it's always her.
168
00:07:28,406 --> 00:07:30,366
Whether it be kids,
whether it's dogs,
169
00:07:30,408 --> 00:07:31,367
it's always her.
170
00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:32,743
What do
you make of it?
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00:07:32,785 --> 00:07:33,411
I'm okay
with that.
172
00:07:33,453 --> 00:07:34,620
I'm like,
"Okay, go."
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00:07:34,662 --> 00:07:35,788
But what do
you make of it?
174
00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:38,040
That's 'cause
she's so motherly.
175
00:07:38,082 --> 00:07:40,626
It's her, um--
it's her nature.
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00:07:40,668 --> 00:07:42,462
Mm-hm, motherly.
177
00:07:42,503 --> 00:07:44,213
Extremely
motherly, yeah.
178
00:07:45,673 --> 00:07:48,634
Which is a good thing;
there's nothing wrong with that.
179
00:07:48,676 --> 00:07:51,262
Nothing wrong
with that at all.
180
00:07:53,473 --> 00:07:56,642
Nothing wrong with that, but
maybe it's getting in your way
181
00:07:56,684 --> 00:07:57,643
a little bit--
182
00:07:57,685 --> 00:07:58,227
Oh, yeah.
183
00:07:58,269 --> 00:08:00,563
As a couple.
184
00:08:00,730 --> 00:08:01,731
Oh.
185
00:08:01,772 --> 00:08:03,232
Oh.
186
00:08:03,274 --> 00:08:05,026
Oh.
187
00:08:05,067 --> 00:08:07,778
Oh, like "Hi, Mom."
188
00:08:07,820 --> 00:08:10,114
What, you think I
treat you like the kids?
189
00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:14,994
Orna, you don't
ease into this stuff, man.
190
00:08:19,123 --> 00:08:20,833
That just came
out of left field, wow!
191
00:08:24,712 --> 00:08:27,465
Okay, so tell me more
about what's going on between
192
00:08:27,507 --> 00:08:29,634
the two of you.
193
00:08:29,675 --> 00:08:32,512
Thoughts after our
first session...
194
00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,598
So the whole
sex thing for us
195
00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,017
like, I just...
196
00:08:38,059 --> 00:08:39,101
I don't
want anything.
197
00:08:39,143 --> 00:08:40,269
Mm-hm.
198
00:08:40,311 --> 00:08:41,646
Like, even if she
tries, I'm like,
199
00:08:41,687 --> 00:08:44,232
"No, I just..."
200
00:08:44,273 --> 00:08:46,692
And she's
tried several times.
201
00:08:46,734 --> 00:08:48,027
Mm-hm.
202
00:08:48,069 --> 00:08:51,489
I always tell her,
like, "When you're ready,
203
00:08:51,531 --> 00:08:56,494
like, I don't ever want
you to feel like if I push,
204
00:08:56,536 --> 00:08:58,538
that I'm
re-triggering something."
205
00:08:58,579 --> 00:09:01,457
I don't want her to feel
like I'm violating her.
206
00:09:01,499 --> 00:09:03,209
Mm-hm.
207
00:09:03,251 --> 00:09:06,045
Can I ask you, what
do you mean by that?
208
00:09:09,632 --> 00:09:13,010
I
was abused as a kid.
209
00:09:13,052 --> 00:09:15,096
There's a
particular incident?
210
00:09:15,137 --> 00:09:17,431
Yes, my uncle.
211
00:09:17,473 --> 00:09:18,641
Mm-hm.
212
00:09:18,683 --> 00:09:21,143
And the first time it
happened, that morning,
213
00:09:21,185 --> 00:09:24,564
I literally woke up with my
uncle's hands in my pants and I
214
00:09:24,605 --> 00:09:26,107
was like, "What
is that feeling?"
215
00:09:26,148 --> 00:09:27,733
Mm-hm.
216
00:09:27,775 --> 00:09:32,280
And I remember walking...
217
00:09:32,321 --> 00:09:34,282
to the bedroom that
my parents were in,
218
00:09:34,323 --> 00:09:36,701
and it was-- I
clearly envision it.
219
00:09:36,742 --> 00:09:40,746
It was sunny, the kitchen
was flooded with sunlight,
220
00:09:40,788 --> 00:09:43,499
and then I get to the bedroom,
and I'm at the door and I hear
221
00:09:43,541 --> 00:09:46,544
them snoring, but I don't
remember what happened from that
222
00:09:46,586 --> 00:09:51,132
point of me trying-- I don't
know if I tried to wake them up,
223
00:09:51,173 --> 00:09:53,342
I don't know if
they shooed me away,
224
00:09:53,384 --> 00:09:54,927
I don't know.
225
00:09:54,969 --> 00:09:58,389
All I know is I ended up walking
back and I got back into bed...
226
00:09:58,431 --> 00:10:01,726
with my uncle
instead of...
227
00:10:01,767 --> 00:10:02,935
instead of going--
228
00:10:02,977 --> 00:10:04,437
Instead of getting
the protection--
229
00:10:04,478 --> 00:10:05,354
Getting away, yeah.
230
00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:06,939
The protection you needed.
231
00:10:06,981 --> 00:10:08,441
Yeah.
232
00:10:08,482 --> 00:10:12,778
And what
about your parents?
233
00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:17,033
My parents didn't
see any signs...
234
00:10:17,074 --> 00:10:18,951
of me being molested.
235
00:10:18,993 --> 00:10:20,786
Mm-hm.
236
00:10:20,828 --> 00:10:25,625
But then, as I got older,
I know my mom asked me...
237
00:10:25,666 --> 00:10:26,626
Mm-hm.
238
00:10:26,667 --> 00:10:30,671
But I never told
her it was my uncle.
239
00:10:30,713 --> 00:10:33,674
But if she has an inkling that
someone may have touched me,
240
00:10:33,716 --> 00:10:37,303
then why not explore that more?
241
00:10:37,345 --> 00:10:39,639
But I feel like
she did not know.
242
00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:42,642
So you're saying there's kind
of a knowing and not knowing.
243
00:10:42,683 --> 00:10:43,809
Yeah.
244
00:10:43,851 --> 00:10:44,977
Like a half-knowing.
245
00:10:45,019 --> 00:10:47,438
There was no
exploration of that statement.
246
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:48,606
Mm-hm.
247
00:10:48,648 --> 00:10:50,858
And then it
was, like, left alone.
248
00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:53,194
Part of me was always
pissed off about that.
249
00:10:53,235 --> 00:10:54,487
Sure.
250
00:10:54,528 --> 00:10:56,489
And I think from there,
that's where all of the,
251
00:10:56,530 --> 00:10:59,325
you know, "If you truly love me,
I'm just gonna just talk shit to
252
00:10:59,367 --> 00:11:00,993
you all the time."
253
00:11:01,035 --> 00:11:04,455
And I think that's why I
talk to you like that when I'm
254
00:11:04,497 --> 00:11:05,206
pissed off.
255
00:11:05,247 --> 00:11:08,417
But I think what you're saying
right now is that part of the
256
00:11:08,459 --> 00:11:11,295
pissed-off is that
something's wrong.
257
00:11:11,337 --> 00:11:14,006
Yeah, and
it kind of just--
258
00:11:14,048 --> 00:11:16,008
And what
feels wrong right now?
259
00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:25,017
I don't know.
260
00:11:25,059 --> 00:11:27,645
I feel like the
wrong is in me.
261
00:11:27,687 --> 00:11:30,815
It has
nothing to do with...
262
00:11:30,856 --> 00:11:34,860
I gotta fi-- I don't
know, I just gotta fix me.
263
00:11:38,072 --> 00:11:43,119
pensive
ambient music
264
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,341
I have a case that I
wanted to bring to the group.
265
00:11:57,383 --> 00:11:59,885
So with Cyn and Yaya,
266
00:11:59,927 --> 00:12:02,638
there are two things
that I thought I'd love
267
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:05,891
your reactions to,
thoughts on with them.
268
00:12:05,933 --> 00:12:08,853
Their presenting
problem is that Cyn lost
269
00:12:08,894 --> 00:12:11,480
her sexual
interest in Yaya.
270
00:12:11,522 --> 00:12:15,151
And most of the time,
Yaya seems oddly unaffected.
271
00:12:15,192 --> 00:12:18,904
I'm thinking to myself,
like, "Why is she not alarmed?"
272
00:12:18,946 --> 00:12:23,743
And then Cyn disclosed that she
had a history of sexual abuse,
273
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,163
and when we think about, like,
childhood trauma and how it
274
00:12:27,204 --> 00:12:32,334
manifests later in life,
there's this classic triangle of
275
00:12:32,376 --> 00:12:37,173
perpetrator,
victim, and bystander.
276
00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:39,592
Like, the bystander who
does nothing to protect.
277
00:12:39,633 --> 00:12:41,302
Mm-hm.
278
00:12:41,343 --> 00:12:43,554
So the
mother is the bystander.
279
00:12:43,596 --> 00:12:45,097
Mm-hm.
280
00:12:45,139 --> 00:12:49,685
So maybe there's some way in
which Yaya's becoming maternal
281
00:12:50,644 --> 00:12:53,314
condenses her with
the maternal image,
282
00:12:53,355 --> 00:12:58,402
and that may have something to
do also with her lack of libido.
283
00:12:59,069 --> 00:13:02,865
This is why you find a partner
who triggers these dynamics,
284
00:13:02,907 --> 00:13:05,785
so that you can participate in
these re-enactments at least
285
00:13:05,826 --> 00:13:07,953
with the hope of
resolving them,
286
00:13:07,995 --> 00:13:09,747
so it's like
Cyn maybe is back in
287
00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:11,499
the same position with
someone where she's,
288
00:13:11,540 --> 00:13:13,125
like, desperately
screaming, like,
289
00:13:13,167 --> 00:13:15,753
"Wake up and hear this."
290
00:13:15,795 --> 00:13:19,840
mellow electronic music
291
00:13:20,257 --> 00:13:22,551
Moving
to Dale and India,
292
00:13:22,593 --> 00:13:26,222
the problem that they came in
with was this kind of classic
293
00:13:26,263 --> 00:13:31,310
couple's dynamic of one person
feeling like they're designated
294
00:13:31,644 --> 00:13:33,979
like the angry one.
295
00:13:34,021 --> 00:13:39,068
So I wanted to, like, talk
about how anger is packaged...
296
00:13:40,361 --> 00:13:44,824
by categories like
gender, or like race.
297
00:13:44,865 --> 00:13:46,116
Yeah.
298
00:13:46,158 --> 00:13:47,368
Well, there's
also respectability politics
299
00:13:47,409 --> 00:13:48,661
in operation.
300
00:13:48,702 --> 00:13:50,830
So in the Black
community, southern Black women,
301
00:13:50,871 --> 00:13:53,290
you are supposed
to be, you know,
302
00:13:53,332 --> 00:13:55,501
this virtuous sort of...
303
00:13:56,418 --> 00:13:57,461
Well-put-together.
304
00:13:57,503 --> 00:13:59,839
Right, and that is
to be expected of you.
305
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,132
You're supposed to keep your
business to yourself and not
306
00:14:02,174 --> 00:14:05,010
show rage.
307
00:14:09,181 --> 00:14:11,225
From the very
beginning of our relationship,
308
00:14:11,267 --> 00:14:13,936
I was under a lot of pressure.
309
00:14:13,978 --> 00:14:16,814
He was coming out of
a marriage before,
310
00:14:16,856 --> 00:14:19,358
um, so
immediately, I'm thinking,
311
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,862
"Oh, great, now I have to
measure up to this woman or make
312
00:14:22,903 --> 00:14:25,990
him feel comfortable again,"
because he had his guard up.
313
00:14:26,031 --> 00:14:26,866
And, uh--
314
00:14:26,907 --> 00:14:28,367
What
kind of guard?
315
00:14:28,409 --> 00:14:31,704
You know, he had this timeline
of these steps that he had to
316
00:14:31,745 --> 00:14:34,039
take before he got very
serious with someone,
317
00:14:34,081 --> 00:14:37,042
so, you know, I felt like I was
kind of walking on eggshells a
318
00:14:37,084 --> 00:14:37,877
little bit with that.
319
00:14:37,918 --> 00:14:39,336
Mm-hm.
320
00:14:39,378 --> 00:14:42,882
And then, we had a conversation
and he said flat-out that,
321
00:14:42,923 --> 00:14:46,051
you know, "I almost gave
up on dating Black women."
322
00:14:46,093 --> 00:14:48,012
So there's a little
bit of judgment there;
323
00:14:48,053 --> 00:14:51,056
he feels a type of way.
324
00:14:51,098 --> 00:14:54,226
A judgment
that Black women are...?
325
00:14:54,268 --> 00:14:56,353
Hard to deal with,
326
00:14:56,395 --> 00:14:59,899
and he just doesn't want to
argue all the time, so, um--
327
00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:01,400
But a
generalization that
328
00:15:01,442 --> 00:15:03,444
Black women
would argue more.
329
00:15:03,485 --> 00:15:04,278
Yes.
330
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:05,195
Mm-hm.
331
00:15:05,237 --> 00:15:06,071
So--
332
00:15:06,113 --> 00:15:07,031
What are you thinking?
333
00:15:07,072 --> 00:15:09,033
Well, I mean, at first,
334
00:15:09,074 --> 00:15:10,492
I'm so sorry
335
00:15:10,534 --> 00:15:12,703
that she felt that way.
336
00:15:12,745 --> 00:15:15,831
But here's the thing:
every time there's an issue,
337
00:15:15,873 --> 00:15:19,043
she comes to me
with guns blazing.
338
00:15:19,084 --> 00:15:22,004
It's never, you know,
"Okay, let's talk about this.
339
00:15:22,046 --> 00:15:23,422
Or let's discuss this.
340
00:15:23,464 --> 00:15:24,465
I have a problem."
341
00:15:24,506 --> 00:15:25,257
Is that true?
342
00:15:25,299 --> 00:15:26,717
I never come
guns blazing.
343
00:15:28,218 --> 00:15:30,054
I come and, like, we have a
conversation and it escalates
344
00:15:30,095 --> 00:15:33,265
when I feel like I'm not
being understood or if I'm being
345
00:15:33,307 --> 00:15:35,893
dismissed or if I'm
not being heard at all,
346
00:15:35,935 --> 00:15:37,102
and then
it escalates.
347
00:15:37,144 --> 00:15:40,272
I mean, I'm not
saying-- I think we...
348
00:15:40,314 --> 00:15:43,692
I think we have
different tolerance levels,
349
00:15:43,734 --> 00:15:45,945
and I think when
India has a plight,
350
00:15:45,986 --> 00:15:47,905
it's very quick
for her to get to,
351
00:15:47,947 --> 00:15:49,073
okay, now it's explosive.
352
00:15:49,114 --> 00:15:50,699
Mm-hm.
353
00:15:50,741 --> 00:15:52,451
But I don't like the
way you make me feel.
354
00:15:52,493 --> 00:15:54,453
You make me feel
angry, aggressive,
355
00:15:54,495 --> 00:15:56,121
and like the villain--
356
00:15:56,163 --> 00:15:57,039
Like a villain.
357
00:15:57,081 --> 00:15:57,957
When I was the
one-- in my mind,
358
00:15:57,998 --> 00:15:58,582
was the victim.
359
00:15:58,624 --> 00:15:59,917
Yeah.
360
00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:01,460
You know, just trying to
communicate to you what my
361
00:16:01,502 --> 00:16:03,045
problem is.
362
00:16:03,087 --> 00:16:04,046
Okay, but--
363
00:16:04,088 --> 00:16:05,089
Hold on, hold on.
364
00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:06,507
Okay.
365
00:16:06,548 --> 00:16:08,092
I'm getting a flavor of
what the two of you are talking
366
00:16:08,133 --> 00:16:10,469
about, and I think
that we can agree
367
00:16:10,511 --> 00:16:13,472
that you each hurt each
other with your words.
368
00:16:13,514 --> 00:16:14,473
Yeah.
369
00:16:14,515 --> 00:16:15,683
Yes.
370
00:16:15,724 --> 00:16:17,309
So I guess the
first question then
371
00:16:17,351 --> 00:16:18,936
is how do
the two of you
372
00:16:18,978 --> 00:16:23,357
create a space where you can
say what you need to say to each
373
00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:27,111
other that feels still...
374
00:16:27,152 --> 00:16:27,778
productive?
375
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:28,737
-Yes.
-Yes.
376
00:16:28,779 --> 00:16:29,738
For the two of you.
377
00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:30,906
-Yes.
-Yes.
378
00:16:30,948 --> 00:16:32,741
I'm happy to be a part
of that conversation,
379
00:16:32,783 --> 00:16:36,996
but I feel like he tries to
put me in a box of being overly
380
00:16:37,037 --> 00:16:41,000
traumatized
or overly insecure
381
00:16:41,041 --> 00:16:42,501
or too emotional.
382
00:16:42,543 --> 00:16:43,836
Mm-hm.
383
00:16:43,877 --> 00:16:47,339
And I'm not saying that I
don't get upset and angry,
384
00:16:47,381 --> 00:16:50,009
but he's very uncomfortable
with confrontation.
385
00:16:50,050 --> 00:16:52,511
Yeah.
386
00:16:52,553 --> 00:16:56,515
And I feel like, okay, that's
something to decode with him.
387
00:16:56,557 --> 00:16:59,977
I don't want to feel like
I'm the only person here who's
388
00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:01,520
broken and who needs to
be fixed when in fact,
389
00:17:01,562 --> 00:17:04,732
I don't think I'm
broken at all, actually.
390
00:17:04,773 --> 00:17:07,192
Maybe he is
the broken one.
391
00:17:07,234 --> 00:17:08,986
Well, we're
probably all broken.
392
00:17:09,028 --> 00:17:09,820
I mean--
393
00:17:09,862 --> 00:17:11,780
-Yeah.
-In some form.
394
00:17:11,822 --> 00:17:14,158
I understand the
tension and the conflict,
395
00:17:14,199 --> 00:17:16,785
but be aware of how
you talk to each other,
396
00:17:16,827 --> 00:17:21,123
because these are ways to not
have to listen to each other.
397
00:17:21,165 --> 00:17:22,207
Yeah.
398
00:17:22,249 --> 00:17:24,543
Yeah.
399
00:17:24,585 --> 00:17:26,587
Okay.
400
00:17:26,628 --> 00:17:29,840
upbeat Latin music
401
00:18:01,163 --> 00:18:03,749
What the fuck is this?
402
00:18:03,791 --> 00:18:07,044
If you went both times,
it's totally unacceptable.
403
00:18:21,934 --> 00:18:24,061
We actually
met here in the city.
404
00:18:24,103 --> 00:18:26,647
This is right after 9/11.
405
00:18:26,688 --> 00:18:29,233
We both got hired at
the same company and,
406
00:18:29,274 --> 00:18:32,194
you know, the first
moment I saw her,
407
00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:36,657
I was, like, very into her.
408
00:18:36,698 --> 00:18:39,827
And, um, I asked
her out a few times.
409
00:18:39,868 --> 00:18:42,079
I asked her out I think
within those first two weeks.
410
00:18:42,121 --> 00:18:43,247
We were putting
chairs away and I was like,
411
00:18:43,288 --> 00:18:44,206
"Do you wanna go
get some coffee?"
412
00:18:44,248 --> 00:18:45,707
And she...did not.
413
00:18:46,583 --> 00:18:47,126
She turned me down.
414
00:18:47,126 --> 00:18:49,962
And then, we were
at a holiday party.
415
00:18:50,003 --> 00:18:52,631
We ended up-- you know, there
was wine at the party and she
416
00:18:52,673 --> 00:18:54,967
was a little bit more...
417
00:18:55,008 --> 00:18:55,968
talkative with me.
418
00:18:56,927 --> 00:18:58,220
'Cause we were flirting!
419
00:18:58,262 --> 00:18:58,887
And then we were--
yeah, then we were, like,
420
00:18:58,929 --> 00:18:59,888
flirting with each other.
421
00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:04,226
And then, next
thing you know, it's, like...
422
00:19:04,268 --> 00:19:08,272
four in the morning, we're
at a deli eating and just--
423
00:19:08,313 --> 00:19:09,273
that was it.
424
00:19:09,314 --> 00:19:11,400
What did you
see in each other?
425
00:19:11,441 --> 00:19:15,487
You know, she's like-- she
has this light and energy and,
426
00:19:15,529 --> 00:19:20,325
like, she also is,
like, really fiery.
427
00:19:20,367 --> 00:19:22,494
That was sort
of my...thought.
428
00:19:22,536 --> 00:19:24,246
And for you?
429
00:19:24,288 --> 00:19:29,334
Josh was like the first
person who I felt really saw me
430
00:19:29,585 --> 00:19:33,213
and understood me, and...
431
00:19:33,547 --> 00:19:38,343
he was just so -- and still
is -- but so kind and so gentle
432
00:19:38,385 --> 00:19:40,929
and so calm.
433
00:19:40,971 --> 00:19:44,349
Like, he was the
opposite of chaos.
434
00:19:44,391 --> 00:19:47,269
It felt calm.
435
00:19:47,311 --> 00:19:49,521
Yeah.
436
00:19:51,523 --> 00:19:54,526
And I felt, like, energized.
437
00:19:54,568 --> 00:19:56,862
Mm-hm.
438
00:19:57,070 --> 00:20:00,782
I felt like, "Oh,
I'm, like, alive.
439
00:20:00,824 --> 00:20:03,368
This is--
life is happening.
440
00:20:03,410 --> 00:20:04,369
Mm-hm.
441
00:20:04,411 --> 00:20:06,622
But that
feels so far away.
442
00:20:06,663 --> 00:20:10,375
Like, that was a lovely story,
but there's a lot of shit from
443
00:20:10,417 --> 00:20:14,171
there to here,
and a lot of pain.
444
00:20:14,213 --> 00:20:16,256
Say more.
445
00:20:18,383 --> 00:20:23,180
You know, before we had
my first-- our first child,
446
00:20:23,222 --> 00:20:27,392
I had, like, a bunch
of miscarriages and...
447
00:20:32,648 --> 00:20:37,402
I think for me, that's
kind of where I got...
448
00:20:37,444 --> 00:20:40,280
broke down.
449
00:20:40,530 --> 00:20:43,575
How did it go
between the two of you?
450
00:20:43,617 --> 00:20:46,245
The miscarriage experience.
451
00:20:47,621 --> 00:20:50,457
For me,
I felt very helpless.
452
00:20:50,499 --> 00:20:53,252
And, uh...
453
00:20:53,502 --> 00:20:58,674
it was-- the feelings that she
was having were unattainable for
454
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,094
m-- like, I couldn't
share in her suffering.
455
00:21:02,135 --> 00:21:04,596
And I can't believe...
456
00:21:04,638 --> 00:21:09,393
that I wasn't there
for her in that time.
457
00:21:09,434 --> 00:21:10,686
Or where was I?
458
00:21:10,727 --> 00:21:12,104
"Where was I?"
459
00:21:12,145 --> 00:21:13,105
maybe is a
better way to say it.
460
00:21:13,146 --> 00:21:14,439
Where was I then?
461
00:21:14,481 --> 00:21:18,235
You couldn't
experience sort of
462
00:21:18,277 --> 00:21:21,113
the level of
loss that Molly was
463
00:21:21,154 --> 00:21:23,282
experiencing,
so you were kind of
464
00:21:23,323 --> 00:21:25,909
left behind...
465
00:21:25,951 --> 00:21:28,912
and you were left alone.
466
00:21:28,954 --> 00:21:31,456
Yeah.
467
00:21:33,083 --> 00:21:36,295
And then, when I got
pregnant with our third child,
468
00:21:36,336 --> 00:21:38,922
Josh met someone
and they became very,
469
00:21:38,964 --> 00:21:43,635
very close, and it came out that
he was having an inappropriate
470
00:21:43,677 --> 00:21:47,639
relationship with
her, and I was pregnant.
471
00:21:47,681 --> 00:21:50,142
That felt like
the rug had been pulled out from
472
00:21:50,183 --> 00:21:52,144
underneath me.
473
00:21:52,185 --> 00:21:54,855
Half of me was like, "I'm
not gonna have this baby to
474
00:21:54,896 --> 00:21:56,523
spite you."
475
00:21:56,565 --> 00:21:59,484
The other half of me was
like, "I have to save my family.
476
00:21:59,526 --> 00:22:03,488
I can't bring in another child
because there's all this chaos
477
00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:06,033
going on and this is
the right thing to do."
478
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:13,498
And then it it was extreme--
I did it at home with a pill.
479
00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:15,667
It was very painful.
480
00:22:15,709 --> 00:22:18,337
And then, the
doctor gave me Percocet,
481
00:22:18,378 --> 00:22:20,672
and then I got
addicted to Percocet!
482
00:22:20,714 --> 00:22:22,758
Mm-hm.
483
00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:24,968
And I...
484
00:22:25,010 --> 00:22:29,181
crashed my car in a tree a
block away from our house.
485
00:22:29,222 --> 00:22:34,227
Like, it was just a
terrible, terrible time.
486
00:22:35,729 --> 00:22:37,981
It just feels,
like, so fucked up,
487
00:22:38,023 --> 00:22:39,316
I don't know.
488
00:22:39,358 --> 00:22:41,568
And, like, we haven't really
talked about it like this.
489
00:22:41,610 --> 00:22:44,571
We have not really
talked about it.
490
00:22:44,863 --> 00:22:47,449
Let's.
491
00:22:53,205 --> 00:22:55,540
Well...
492
00:22:55,582 --> 00:22:57,167
I was so angry--
493
00:22:57,209 --> 00:22:58,210
Yeah.
494
00:22:58,251 --> 00:23:02,339
At Josh because I
then had to go through
495
00:23:02,381 --> 00:23:05,384
losing a child again...
496
00:23:09,554 --> 00:23:13,558
which was
devastating and still is.
497
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,644
And I feel so, like...
498
00:23:17,604 --> 00:23:18,814
dead.
499
00:23:18,855 --> 00:23:21,400
Yeah.
500
00:23:29,574 --> 00:23:32,577
First of all,
Josh, where are you?
501
00:23:32,619 --> 00:23:34,579
Um...
502
00:23:34,621 --> 00:23:39,626
I can't even believe that
that happened in our life.
503
00:23:40,419 --> 00:23:42,379
Like,
I can't...
504
00:23:42,421 --> 00:23:44,047
I can't
believe it happened.
505
00:23:44,089 --> 00:23:45,257
Mm-hm.
506
00:23:45,298 --> 00:23:47,968
Choices that I made...
507
00:23:48,009 --> 00:23:51,805
daily for a least
a little while...
508
00:23:51,847 --> 00:23:56,893
you know, directly led to a
decision that we made to...
509
00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:00,605
not have a k-- you
know, this child.
510
00:24:00,647 --> 00:24:04,401
Like, I just can't-- I cannot--
I can't wrap my brain around the
511
00:24:04,443 --> 00:24:05,944
fact that that
actually happened.
512
00:24:05,986 --> 00:24:07,446
Can I just understand...
513
00:24:07,487 --> 00:24:10,740
The choice that
created the outcome is
514
00:24:10,782 --> 00:24:14,619
the relationship is
the cause of the abortion?
515
00:24:14,661 --> 00:24:15,745
Yeah.
516
00:24:15,787 --> 00:24:18,415
That's how it lives
between the two of you?
517
00:24:18,457 --> 00:24:20,625
Yeah.
518
00:24:23,003 --> 00:24:25,630
And then, I was, like,
crying out for help,
519
00:24:25,672 --> 00:24:26,631
you know what I mean?
520
00:24:26,673 --> 00:24:28,091
With the...
521
00:24:28,133 --> 00:24:31,511
Percocet and...
522
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,310
then seeking someone who
would hold fucking space for me
523
00:24:38,351 --> 00:24:41,646
outside of our marriage but
knowing that that wasn't right
524
00:24:41,688 --> 00:24:46,735
but I just wanted someone
to hold some space for me!
525
00:24:52,532 --> 00:24:54,493
I mean,
this is the thing,
526
00:24:54,534 --> 00:24:57,329
it's like
how do we...
527
00:24:57,996 --> 00:25:00,832
how do we carry all
this forward with us, like...
528
00:25:00,874 --> 00:25:03,585
whether we have to carry it or
whether we can leave it behind,
529
00:25:03,627 --> 00:25:05,212
or what-- how do
we-- what do...?
530
00:25:05,253 --> 00:25:06,087
That's how I feel.
531
00:25:06,129 --> 00:25:07,797
I'm like, "What...
532
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:10,592
what do we do with
this stuff that we--"
533
00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:13,428
In a way, at least part of
what the two of you seem to be
534
00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:15,263
telling me...
535
00:25:15,305 --> 00:25:18,225
with all these words,
like "dead inside,"
536
00:25:18,266 --> 00:25:19,267
"Can we carry it?
537
00:25:19,309 --> 00:25:22,103
Do we leave it behind?"
538
00:25:22,145 --> 00:25:25,106
I think there's part of it
that has to do really with,
539
00:25:25,148 --> 00:25:27,275
like, the
processing of all these,
540
00:25:27,317 --> 00:25:30,028
like, unborn...
541
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:32,197
babies.
542
00:25:33,573 --> 00:25:35,534
Miscarried, aborted.
543
00:25:35,575 --> 00:25:37,327
Where does it
live inside you?
544
00:25:37,369 --> 00:25:38,703
Between you?
545
00:25:38,745 --> 00:25:41,706
A future that
didn't happen, a past...
546
00:25:44,751 --> 00:25:45,752
Yeah.
547
00:25:48,713 --> 00:25:52,759
funky instrumental music
548
00:26:00,809 --> 00:26:01,643
Thank you.
549
00:26:01,685 --> 00:26:02,519
See you soon.
550
00:26:02,561 --> 00:26:04,563
See you soon.
551
00:26:17,325 --> 00:26:22,372
cool funky music
45568
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