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- Just a week ago today,
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four more bodies
were discovered.
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00:00:21,638 --> 00:00:23,515
in a connected series
of murders
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00:00:23,558 --> 00:00:25,608
that now numbers at least ten.
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- He went for someone who he
knew was weak and vulnerable.
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Co-eds, college students.
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- He eviscerates them,
decapitates them,
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has sex with the body parts.
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- Roz Thorpe was a free spirit.
She was bright.
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- Aiko Koo was a little girl,
really.
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Who knows what these victims
would've turned into,
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00:01:03,697 --> 00:01:06,530
and I think that's
the tragedy of it all.
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- By 10, 12 years of age,
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he was getting abuse
from his mother.
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"You're nothing. You'll never
amount to anything."
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- We're still fighting.
She's still belittling me.
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I'm like a puppet on a string.
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- If mom wasn't there,
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he wouldn't
have been a serial killer.
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- He killed his mother.
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He wanted to just humiliate
and defile the corpse
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any way he could, and he did.
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- Here was a guy
killing coeds.
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He's a necrophiliac,
what he did to his mother.
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How is he different from us?
What's going through his mind?
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To understand the artist,
you must look at the artwork.
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Kemper is gonna be
the first one
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to help the FBI know
what makes these guys tick.
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00:02:19,876 --> 00:02:22,930
- Kemper was very helpful
because he's very intelligent.
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He's more than just
average intelligence.
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- He's got total recall
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for everything
that he has ever done.
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- He changed
law enforcement forever.
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- I'm not an expert.
I'm not an authority.
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I'm someone who has been
a murderer for almost 20 years.
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I was playing a dangerous game
with a loaded gun
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that got us all.
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00:03:07,347 --> 00:03:10,313
- In the '60s, Santa Cruz
was a beach town
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by basically a Yosemite-quality
redwood forest.
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- It was beautiful.
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It was just really
make-believe.
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- UC Santa Cruz
had opened in 1965
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and was just
gathering popularity,
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and it was becoming
a real counterculture location
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where hippies loved to go.
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It was a real party time.
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Come to Santa Cruz
and be free and easy.
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Until the bodies started
washing in on the beach.
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00:03:38,369 --> 00:03:41,246
- There are a number of
unsolved murders in this area.
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00:03:41,290 --> 00:03:44,606
Four of these victims
were co-eds from nearby UC.
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00:03:44,650 --> 00:03:47,748
At least two other young women
are missing and feared dead.
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- People were buying guns,
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00:03:50,933 --> 00:03:52,854
making sure
their doors were locked,
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and it was
an atmosphere of fear.
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- Until he called the police
on himself,
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I don't think
anybody felt safe.
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00:04:37,510 --> 00:04:39,799
- So at that point, I'm feeling
all of the blood
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run from my head
down to my feet.
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- It was a shock to everybody.
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Everybody was
just buzzing around.
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It was, like, all of a sudden,
things were happening.
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- The police came up.
He filled up the entire booth.
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He was arrested
in the telephone booth.
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00:05:01,745 --> 00:05:06,981
- He stands 6'9", 285 pounds.
Just a huge man.
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00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:09,775
So the officers said
when they arrived
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00:05:09,818 --> 00:05:11,955
he came out
of the phone booth,
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00:05:11,998 --> 00:05:14,921
he literally put his hands
on top of the phone booth
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00:05:14,965 --> 00:05:16,493
to say "I give up."
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He's that big.
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- Why did you wind up
giving yourself up?
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- It had to stop.
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00:05:25,917 --> 00:05:28,883
- This was such a crazy time
and such a hideous evil
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00:05:28,927 --> 00:05:31,502
that Kemper perpetrated
on these people.
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00:05:31,545 --> 00:05:34,600
- He tells me exactly,
in graphic details,
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what he did to these victims.
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Just think if had
he not turned himself in
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and he just kept killing,
he could've gone killing
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for a long, long period
of time.
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- In those days,
all of the research
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00:06:12,950 --> 00:06:16,930
that has been conducted
on criminal psychology
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00:06:16,136 --> 00:06:19,233
has been from
a rehabilitation perspective.
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We've had to develop
more of a proactive technique
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to try to catch these guys.
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I told my partner,
"We got to go
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and talk to the experts."
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We did not ask
for FBI permission
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because the old saying,
it's better to ask
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for forgiveness
than permission.
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00:06:36,816 --> 00:06:38,474
And the first person
we'd be interviewing
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00:06:38,518 --> 00:06:40,219
would be Edmund Emil Kemper.
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00:06:40,263 --> 00:06:43,535
- He was not insane.
He was perfectly conscious
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00:06:43,578 --> 00:06:46,938
of exactly what he was doing
and how he was doing it,
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and he told the police
everything.
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00:06:48,946 --> 00:06:51,345
You can learn exactly
what you wanted to learn.
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- He was perfect for the FBI.
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00:07:10,237 --> 00:07:11,633
- The best way to understand
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00:07:11,676 --> 00:07:14,340
is to look
at Kemper's childhood.
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- Ed Kemper never had
a normal childhood.
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00:07:25,682 --> 00:07:27,254
- It was a chaotic relationship
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00:07:27,297 --> 00:07:28,954
between
his mother and his father.
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This went on
for a period of time,
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this bickering and yelling,
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demeaning his father.
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The father couldn't take it
any longer, so he took off.
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00:07:41,171 --> 00:07:43,702
And junior here
was now left with the mother.
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- His mother was
very verbally abusive,
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00:07:54,740 --> 00:07:58,187
didn't like him,
maybe hated him.
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- His mother was
very belittling
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of him and humiliated him,
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00:08:02,725 --> 00:08:04,644
but somebody doesn't
wake up one day
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00:08:04,687 --> 00:08:06,564
and decide, "I'll go out
and kill women,"
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00:08:06,608 --> 00:08:08,527
because someone is trying
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00:08:08,571 --> 00:08:10,186
to symbolically
kill their mother.
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00:08:10,230 --> 00:08:13,632
It begins 10, 15,
20 years earlier
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00:08:13,677 --> 00:08:16,512
in his mind, in his fantasies.
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00:08:19,523 --> 00:08:23,362
- He had an older sister,
and he had a younger sister,
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and he played games called
gas chamber, electric chair,
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00:08:27,157 --> 00:08:29,688
and what that was, was just
like reenactment of death.
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They would strap him
to a chair,
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and then his sister
would make-believe
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she's pushing on a button
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00:08:35,230 --> 00:08:37,237
to execute him,
and he'd writhe
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00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,941
in the chair
like he's being executed.
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00:08:39,984 --> 00:08:42,777
- And that was a game,
and you wonder if there was
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00:08:42,820 --> 00:08:45,918
something in that experience
that began
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some of these
very death-oriented fantasies.
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- His mother was afraid of him.
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00:08:55,604 --> 00:08:57,219
- She put him in the basement.
129
00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:05,902
- The rest of the family
went upstairs
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00:09:05,945 --> 00:09:08,737
to retire for the evening.
I went to the basement.
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00:09:08,781 --> 00:09:11,792
So we had an entire floor
of the house between us,
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00:09:11,835 --> 00:09:14,410
and it was very scary.
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00:09:14,454 --> 00:09:17,421
My mother wouldn't allow me any
negotiated settlement of light.
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00:09:17,465 --> 00:09:19,906
I couldn't have a night light.
It was too expensive.
135
00:09:19,949 --> 00:09:23,440
- And he talked about the rats
running around at night
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00:09:23,484 --> 00:09:25,797
and how afraid
he was of the rats.
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00:09:28,677 --> 00:09:30,290
- He'd be all alone
in the dark
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00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:31,905
with only
this furnace light going.
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00:09:31,950 --> 00:09:33,695
- And he would look in
this gas furnace, and he would
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00:09:33,738 --> 00:09:35,395
just kind of fantasize
that this was hell,
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00:09:35,439 --> 00:09:36,530
this was Satan.
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And the flames are coming out.
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- And to me, that was
the fires of hell.
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00:09:43,118 --> 00:09:46,477
All I saw was
the flame shadows
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00:09:46,521 --> 00:09:48,572
or light playing on the grill
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of the furnace shining on
a wall and a hissing sound.
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That I was making a bargain
with demonic forces
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that I was convinced
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00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:04,933
were gonna consume me
and somehow do me in.
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00:10:10,830 --> 00:10:13,500
- And he had these dolls
belonging to his older sister.
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00:10:14,881 --> 00:10:16,932
She loved these dolls.
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00:10:16,975 --> 00:10:19,200
So that's where he first
started cutting the heads,
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00:10:19,244 --> 00:10:21,601
the arms,
and legs off the dolls.
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It didn't stop with the dolls.
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00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:35,125
He then transitioned
over into animal cruelty.
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00:10:37,699 --> 00:10:39,314
Which we know that's
a predictor
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of future violence.
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00:10:41,713 --> 00:10:44,899
So he buries the cat alive
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and then brings the cat up
after it's dead,
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decapitates the head
of the cat.
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00:10:49,307 --> 00:10:50,963
He puts it on a stake.
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00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,763
If you see these
characteristics in children,
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00:10:55,807 --> 00:10:58,644
there's a good chance he or she
will become a violent offender.
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00:11:04,358 --> 00:11:08,230
They shipped him up
to the paternal grandparents,
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in a remote area.
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00:11:12,255 --> 00:11:13,696
- He loved his grandfather.
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00:11:13,739 --> 00:11:15,353
It's the only person
I ever heard him
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00:11:15,398 --> 00:11:17,272
say that he loved.
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00:11:18,887 --> 00:11:21,767
His grandfather got him
a rifle
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00:11:21,811 --> 00:11:23,468
and taught him to shoot.
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00:11:25,475 --> 00:11:27,395
- He was shooting birds.
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00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:30,972
And grandma,
her name was Maude,
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didn't like that.
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00:11:33,983 --> 00:11:35,161
- She took the gun
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- We begin now to see
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the dynamics
of when he gets upset.
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00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,982
Her telling him to do something
triggered a lot of rage.
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00:11:46,250 --> 00:11:50,170
- And unfortunately Maude
was the same personality
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00:11:50,213 --> 00:11:51,523
as his mother.
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00:11:54,185 --> 00:11:56,888
- Very, very controlling,
domineering,
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00:11:56,932 --> 00:11:59,202
nagging type of mother.
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00:11:59,245 --> 00:12:01,558
- He described her
as verbally abusive.
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00:12:01,601 --> 00:12:04,394
He used the same terms
for his mother.
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00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,160
- They get into an argument,
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00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,650
and he was just so fed up...
186
00:12:11,374 --> 00:12:13,949
with her, and he decided to
pick up that gun
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00:12:13,993 --> 00:12:16,261
and while she's at
her kitchen table...
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He came up and shot her
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00:12:19,577 --> 00:12:21,235
once in the back of the head
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00:12:22,718 --> 00:12:25,310
and a couple of times
in the back.
191
00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:32,186
Surprisingly it's not done.
192
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,470
He was getting abuse
from his mother,
193
00:12:42,910 --> 00:12:43,792
and he can only take
so much of this,
194
00:12:43,836 --> 00:12:46,280
and it's going to,
you know, overflow.
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00:12:46,323 --> 00:12:49,595
- I said, "She's got to die,
or more girls are gonna die."
196
00:12:50,642 --> 00:12:53,304
And that's when I decided
I'm going to murder my mother.
197
00:13:12,414 --> 00:13:15,424
- So then he became horrified.
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00:13:15,468 --> 00:13:17,911
He was so concerned
about how this was going
199
00:13:17,954 --> 00:13:19,961
to affect his grandfather,
200
00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:22,130
so he decided
the only reasonable thing
201
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:23,452
to do was to kill
his grandfather
202
00:13:23,496 --> 00:13:25,417
to keep him from suffering.
203
00:13:35,364 --> 00:13:37,196
- Why did you shoot grandpa?
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00:13:37,239 --> 00:13:38,854
You liked him.
205
00:13:38,898 --> 00:13:40,380
And he said,
"I didn't want Grandpa
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00:13:40,424 --> 00:13:43,347
"to see that his wife is dead.
207
00:13:43,391 --> 00:13:45,355
He would've had
a heart attack."
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00:13:45,399 --> 00:13:47,405
It doesn't make sense.
209
00:13:48,278 --> 00:13:51,508
And they call the cops.
They come. They arrest him.
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00:14:01,324 --> 00:14:03,462
- At the time I was 6' 7 1/2".
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00:14:03,505 --> 00:14:06,471
I weighed 173 pounds.
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00:14:06,515 --> 00:14:08,653
They couldn't believe
I was under 16.
213
00:14:08,697 --> 00:14:11,533
The judge had appointed
a psychiatrist.
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00:14:11,577 --> 00:14:15,240
His report was that
I was mentally ill,
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00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:18,428
that I was what he called...
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00:14:18,471 --> 00:14:21,568
how did he put that?
I was salvageable,
217
00:14:21,612 --> 00:14:24,980
that I should be treated
and not punished.
218
00:14:30,293 --> 00:14:32,431
- Atascadero,
that's a place basically
219
00:14:32,475 --> 00:14:35,268
for the criminally insane,
and you're dealing with a lot
220
00:14:35,311 --> 00:14:37,798
of severely psychotic,
mentally ill people that
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00:14:37,842 --> 00:14:40,417
did something in the throes
of a psychosis.
222
00:14:42,511 --> 00:14:44,431
Kemper didn't fit that mold.
223
00:14:45,521 --> 00:14:49,578
- They felt he must be crazy
because look what he did,
224
00:14:49,622 --> 00:14:52,589
but unfortunately
his condition
225
00:14:52,633 --> 00:14:57,433
didn't fit within any of the
diagnostic mental illnesses.
226
00:14:57,477 --> 00:14:59,351
He wasn't
a paranoid schizophrenic.
227
00:14:59,394 --> 00:15:01,446
He didn't hear voices.
228
00:15:01,490 --> 00:15:03,322
- This type of pathology
229
00:15:03,366 --> 00:15:05,591
was not at all
on anybody's radar screen,
230
00:15:05,634 --> 00:15:07,512
even mental
health professionals,
231
00:15:07,555 --> 00:15:10,610
and I'm not sure that they knew
what to do with him.
232
00:15:11,568 --> 00:15:13,532
And so he was locked away.
233
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,854
- So from age 15 to 21,
he was in a cage,
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00:15:18,898 --> 00:15:21,516
and that's just
how he developed.
235
00:15:24,264 --> 00:15:27,275
Here's a kid that had
never had a girlfriend.
236
00:15:28,889 --> 00:15:31,289
And he described
that he would masturbate
237
00:15:31,332 --> 00:15:32,730
several times a day.
238
00:15:35,303 --> 00:15:37,659
A lot of what
he was thinking about
239
00:15:37,703 --> 00:15:41,280
during this--these activities
was what he would do
240
00:15:41,324 --> 00:15:44,465
to his mother
and perhaps to other women.
241
00:15:46,430 --> 00:15:49,571
- He hated his mother,
and it's sexually arousing
242
00:15:49,615 --> 00:15:51,530
and stimulating.
243
00:15:51,970 --> 00:15:54,675
What that tells me is,
as an early adolescent,
244
00:15:54,718 --> 00:15:56,770
when people
are just reaching puberty,
245
00:15:56,813 --> 00:15:59,694
and their sexuality
begins to take place,
246
00:15:59,737 --> 00:16:02,835
you already see the early signs
of a fusion
247
00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:04,884
of sex and aggression.
248
00:16:06,190 --> 00:16:07,721
- They do some psych tests
on him.
249
00:16:09,423 --> 00:16:11,123
- He's very intelligent.
250
00:16:12,826 --> 00:16:15,444
He's more than just
average intelligence.
251
00:16:17,493 --> 00:16:19,763
- His IQ was 145.
252
00:16:27,137 --> 00:16:29,928
- I wasn't aware
of any intelligence.
253
00:16:29,972 --> 00:16:32,633
I was being called stupid
pretty frequently,
254
00:16:32,677 --> 00:16:34,772
and unfortunately
it was sinking in.
255
00:16:34,816 --> 00:16:38,655
I was very positively impressed
and surprised
256
00:16:38,699 --> 00:16:40,531
to find out I wasn't
mentally defective.
257
00:16:40,574 --> 00:16:43,279
Literally. I thought I was
a slow person.
258
00:16:43,322 --> 00:16:45,635
- He's very, very disarming
259
00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:47,556
because of his
high intelligence
260
00:16:47,599 --> 00:16:49,605
and his pleasant demeanor.
261
00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:51,919
He's a very friendly
and engaging
262
00:16:51,963 --> 00:16:54,145
and really
a very likeable person.
263
00:16:54,188 --> 00:16:55,713
- They trusted him.
264
00:16:59,335 --> 00:17:01,125
- They thought
he was just the perfect
265
00:17:01,169 --> 00:17:03,218
recovered criminal,
266
00:17:03,262 --> 00:17:07,233
and he assisted them as, like,
a secretary in their offices
267
00:17:07,277 --> 00:17:09,981
and administered tests
to the inmates.
268
00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:12,250
- He learned the buzzwords.
He learned what to say
269
00:17:12,294 --> 00:17:14,389
to make himself sound normal.
270
00:17:14,432 --> 00:17:16,351
He memorized the questions.
271
00:17:17,138 --> 00:17:20,610
- So he knew what the answers
were supposed to be.
272
00:17:21,210 --> 00:17:24,336
And that's why he passed
his final examination.
273
00:17:26,370 --> 00:17:29,658
- When Kemper was allowed out
of Atascadero,
274
00:17:29,702 --> 00:17:31,230
he was declared sane.
275
00:17:31,274 --> 00:17:33,107
- Psychiatrists really
didn't believe
276
00:17:33,150 --> 00:17:35,155
he was a danger
to himself or others.
277
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,770
He had been a model patient.
278
00:17:38,790 --> 00:17:40,480
So they recommended
that he be released.
279
00:17:40,523 --> 00:17:43,142
But when they paroled him,
280
00:17:43,185 --> 00:17:45,278
they made him live
with his mother.
281
00:17:52,172 --> 00:17:54,180
- Now he's with mom.
282
00:17:54,223 --> 00:17:57,233
He's back in this environment,
the nagging, the yelling.
283
00:17:57,278 --> 00:17:58,324
She broke him.
284
00:17:59,983 --> 00:18:02,861
- Within nine months,
he killed his first hitchhiker.
285
00:18:10,889 --> 00:18:13,280
- Mary Ann Pesce
and Anita Luchessa
286
00:18:13,710 --> 00:18:14,990
were the first ones
that were murdered.
287
00:18:15,340 --> 00:18:17,128
- He said he cut her
ear to ear.
288
00:18:17,173 --> 00:18:18,480
- When I attacked her,
she didn't
289
00:18:18,525 --> 00:18:20,271
at first realize
what was happening.
290
00:18:20,314 --> 00:18:22,147
I had just gone through
a horrible experience
291
00:18:22,191 --> 00:18:24,240
stabbing her,
and I'm walking back there
292
00:18:24,285 --> 00:18:26,335
with her roommate, bewildered.
I got to kill her.
293
00:18:26,379 --> 00:18:28,254
I can't let her go.
She's gonna tell on me.
294
00:18:28,298 --> 00:18:30,523
Everybody's gonna get me.
295
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:54,651
- After juvenile hall,
296
00:18:54,694 --> 00:18:57,137
he was a bit of a loner.
He didn't really fit in.
297
00:18:57,181 --> 00:19:00,498
He wanted to hang with the cops
and fit in with them.
298
00:19:00,541 --> 00:19:04,687
- He actually had ambitions
of becoming a policeman.
299
00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:06,867
I mean,
that's sort of crazy.
300
00:19:09,921 --> 00:19:13,630
- Many murderers wanted to be
law enforcement officers,
301
00:19:13,106 --> 00:19:16,204
and a few of them actually
were law enforcement officers.
302
00:19:24,363 --> 00:19:26,414
These guys are interested
in law enforcement
303
00:19:26,457 --> 00:19:29,119
because they want to learn
investigative techniques
304
00:19:29,162 --> 00:19:31,607
in order to avoid apprehension.
305
00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:34,500
And how do you learn
investigative techniques
306
00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:36,449
any better
than hanging around cops?
307
00:19:37,889 --> 00:19:39,764
- Kemper wanted to be
a police officer,
308
00:19:39,808 --> 00:19:42,339
but he never could get on
because he was 6'9",
309
00:19:42,382 --> 00:19:44,215
300 pounds.
310
00:19:44,259 --> 00:19:45,872
He exceeded the height limit.
311
00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:48,403
- So he got a job
with the highway department.
312
00:19:50,978 --> 00:19:52,417
- What did people see?
313
00:19:53,553 --> 00:19:55,385
- A nice guy.
314
00:19:55,428 --> 00:19:58,307
I lived as an ordinary person
most of my life,
315
00:19:58,350 --> 00:20:00,960
even though I was living
a parallel
316
00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:04,242
and increasingly sick life,
other life.
317
00:20:04,285 --> 00:20:07,558
- He really couldn't function
well at all in society.
318
00:20:07,601 --> 00:20:10,438
- His love life
was very lacking.
319
00:20:10,481 --> 00:20:13,990
- He would see normal people,
a man and a woman going out
320
00:20:13,142 --> 00:20:15,105
on a date or being together.
321
00:20:15,148 --> 00:20:18,465
The level of jealousy in him
was just out of this world.
322
00:20:18,508 --> 00:20:22,860
- He claimed that his mother
was the one that
323
00:20:22,130 --> 00:20:25,970
kept him from being
with women his own age.
324
00:20:26,536 --> 00:20:28,412
- He wanted his mother
to fix him up with some girls
325
00:20:28,455 --> 00:20:30,507
on campus,
and the mother said, "No.
326
00:20:30,550 --> 00:20:32,908
"You'll never get to date
any of these girls.
327
00:20:32,951 --> 00:20:34,608
You're just worthless."
328
00:20:45,516 --> 00:20:51,974
- My frustration, my inability
to communicate socially,
329
00:20:52,170 --> 00:20:55,464
sexually--I wasn't impotent,
330
00:20:55,508 --> 00:20:57,514
but emotionally I was impotent.
331
00:20:57,557 --> 00:21:00,481
I was scared to death
of failing
332
00:21:00,525 --> 00:21:02,358
in male-female relationships.
333
00:21:02,401 --> 00:21:05,324
I knew absolutely nothing
about that whole area,
334
00:21:05,368 --> 00:21:08,247
even of just sitting down
and talking with a young lady.
335
00:21:09,382 --> 00:21:10,953
I need to be able
to really communicate,
336
00:21:10,996 --> 00:21:12,306
and ironically enough,
337
00:21:12,349 --> 00:21:14,442
that's why I began
picking people up.
338
00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:23,212
- Hitchhiking culture
in Santa Cruz was very active.
339
00:21:23,824 --> 00:21:25,831
- People hitchhiked
all over town.
340
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:30,367
But especially they hitchhiked
at the university.
341
00:21:31,502 --> 00:21:33,204
- He could've gone
to prostitutes,
342
00:21:33,247 --> 00:21:35,299
but prostitutes
are street people.
343
00:21:35,342 --> 00:21:38,571
They're strong. They're tough.
They take care of themselves.
344
00:21:38,614 --> 00:21:41,495
Kemper was too smart for that,
so he went for someone
345
00:21:41,538 --> 00:21:44,460
who he knew was weak
and vulnerable.
346
00:21:48,126 --> 00:21:49,565
Co-eds, college students.
347
00:21:52,314 --> 00:21:55,238
He gained comfort
by becoming familiar
348
00:21:55,282 --> 00:21:58,160
with the process
of picking up hitchhikers.
349
00:21:58,204 --> 00:22:00,124
- He wanted to see how far
he could get,
350
00:22:00,167 --> 00:22:01,520
and he would advance it.
351
00:22:03,746 --> 00:22:06,188
He would pick up a co-ed,
352
00:22:06,233 --> 00:22:09,242
and he wanted to see
whether he could let her go.
353
00:22:11,250 --> 00:22:14,522
So he's testing himself,
practicing.
354
00:22:16,791 --> 00:22:18,536
- I'm picking up young women,
355
00:22:18,580 --> 00:22:20,587
and I'm going a little bit
farther each time.
356
00:22:20,631 --> 00:22:22,985
It's a daring kind of a thing.
357
00:22:24,644 --> 00:22:26,400
I'm driving along.
358
00:22:26,830 --> 00:22:28,571
We go to a vulnerable place
359
00:22:28,614 --> 00:22:30,447
where there aren't
people watching,
360
00:22:30,491 --> 00:22:33,458
where I could act out,
and I say, "No, I can't."
361
00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:45,761
And this craving, this awful,
raging, eating feeling inside,
362
00:22:45,805 --> 00:22:49,819
I could feel it
consuming my insides,
363
00:22:49,862 --> 00:22:51,869
this fantastic passion.
364
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,670
It was like drugs.
It was like alcohol.
365
00:22:56,713 --> 00:22:59,375
A little isn't enough.
At first it is.
366
00:22:59,419 --> 00:23:01,337
And as you adjust to
that psychologically
367
00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:03,606
and physically, you take
more and more and more.
368
00:23:03,649 --> 00:23:05,460
It's the same process.
369
00:23:05,890 --> 00:23:07,359
So it finally came down
to the thing of,
370
00:23:07,402 --> 00:23:09,671
"Do I dare bring this gun out?"
371
00:23:09,715 --> 00:23:11,809
Already realizing
if that gun comes out,
372
00:23:11,852 --> 00:23:15,800
something has to happen.
It was going to happen.
373
00:23:15,123 --> 00:23:17,100
I didn't see it then,
but it was going to happen.
374
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,750
I was playing a dangerous game
with a loaded gun
375
00:23:19,793 --> 00:23:21,102
that got us all.
376
00:23:32,751 --> 00:23:34,933
- It would be displaced anger.
377
00:23:34,977 --> 00:23:36,809
These are girls
his mother said
378
00:23:36,853 --> 00:23:39,166
and swore by,
you can never have them.
379
00:23:39,209 --> 00:23:41,565
But even though now,
in his warped ways,
380
00:23:41,608 --> 00:23:44,925
he's able to gain control
over these girls. They're his.
381
00:23:45,928 --> 00:23:48,230
And he decided
on this one day,
382
00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:50,290
this precipitating event,
the argument
383
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,734
with mom,
to pick up that gun.
384
00:23:54,567 --> 00:23:55,919
- He thought about it
for a long time,
385
00:23:55,963 --> 00:23:57,315
and he just did it.
386
00:23:58,319 --> 00:24:00,631
- Mary Ann Pesce
and Anita Luchessa
387
00:24:00,674 --> 00:24:02,595
were the first ones
that were murdered.
388
00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:24,629
One has flowers in her hand.
389
00:24:24,672 --> 00:24:26,853
Petite little dolls
and they're hitchhiking,
390
00:24:26,897 --> 00:24:28,424
a couple of real experts.
391
00:24:28,468 --> 00:24:30,125
I want to see
how together I am,
392
00:24:30,169 --> 00:24:32,176
if I can resist
this temptation.
393
00:24:32,219 --> 00:24:34,968
- These two victims really fit
394
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:36,888
the fantasy, the profile.
395
00:24:37,892 --> 00:24:41,770
They're very, very petite,
very attractive.
396
00:24:41,950 --> 00:24:44,873
But he says, "I knew
I was going to kill them."
397
00:24:53,310 --> 00:24:54,384
- Because he worked
for the state,
398
00:24:54,428 --> 00:24:56,347
he knew areas
where to take the girls.
399
00:24:58,310 --> 00:25:00,100
Luchessa was
in the front seat.
400
00:25:00,143 --> 00:25:01,801
Pesce was in the back.
401
00:25:03,983 --> 00:25:05,902
He cuffs Pesce.
402
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:12,403
- Gained control of Luchessa.
403
00:25:14,105 --> 00:25:17,334
Takes Luchessa,
puts her in the trunk.
404
00:25:20,562 --> 00:25:23,355
He's favoring Pesce
in the back seat.
405
00:25:24,445 --> 00:25:25,842
But he's going to kill her.
406
00:25:25,885 --> 00:25:27,150
- When I attacked her,
she didn't
407
00:25:27,194 --> 00:25:28,415
at first realize
what was happening.
408
00:25:28,459 --> 00:25:29,594
It didn't go through.
409
00:25:31,731 --> 00:25:33,390
- She had
very heavy coveralls on.
410
00:25:33,433 --> 00:25:35,921
It knocked her
right into the lid of the car,
411
00:25:35,965 --> 00:25:37,446
but it didn't pierce
the clothing.
412
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:39,279
It wasn't that swell
a knife anyway.
413
00:25:40,414 --> 00:25:42,334
I kept on just mindlessly
attacking.
414
00:25:47,133 --> 00:25:49,540
- He said he cut her ear
to ear.
415
00:25:49,980 --> 00:25:50,362
He said,
"It's not like in the movies.
416
00:25:50,405 --> 00:25:51,669
You know, it's so tough.
417
00:25:51,714 --> 00:25:54,700
It's so tough
to kill somebody."
418
00:25:54,114 --> 00:25:56,601
"You know, like in the movies,"
he says, "you cut somebody,
419
00:25:56,645 --> 00:25:59,481
and then they bleed out,
and it just didn't work."
420
00:26:00,353 --> 00:26:03,320
Like many serial offenders--he
would be the first one
421
00:26:03,363 --> 00:26:05,415
to tell us this--he wasn't good
at the beginning.
422
00:26:05,458 --> 00:26:08,251
He didn't have control
of his victims.
423
00:26:08,294 --> 00:26:11,261
Now he had Luchessa
in the trunk.
424
00:26:11,829 --> 00:26:13,530
- I had just gone through
a horrible experience
425
00:26:13,573 --> 00:26:16,235
with her roommate,
stabbing her,
426
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:18,111
and I was in shock
because of it.
427
00:26:18,154 --> 00:26:20,740
I couldn't believe
that it was that way,
428
00:26:20,118 --> 00:26:21,601
and I'm walking back
there, bewildered.
429
00:26:21,645 --> 00:26:23,216
I got to kill her.
I can't let her go.
430
00:26:23,259 --> 00:26:24,569
She's gonna tell on me.
431
00:26:24,612 --> 00:26:26,357
Everybody's gonna get me.
432
00:26:26,401 --> 00:26:27,754
She sees the blood
on my hands.
433
00:26:27,797 --> 00:26:29,106
"What are you doing?"
434
00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:31,113
She pulled back,
and she gasped.
435
00:26:32,422 --> 00:26:34,210
And I think, "Whoa,
436
00:26:34,254 --> 00:26:35,868
I don't want her
to know what happened."
437
00:26:38,269 --> 00:26:40,667
I said, "Your friend got smart
with me, and I hit her.
438
00:26:40,711 --> 00:26:42,674
I think I broke her nose.
You better come help."
439
00:26:42,718 --> 00:26:44,420
She's about to die.
Why do--
440
00:26:44,464 --> 00:26:46,252
Why does she have
to know that?
441
00:26:46,296 --> 00:26:48,695
I couldn't deal with
telling her that.
442
00:26:52,318 --> 00:26:53,670
- He said, "I was stabbing her
in the back."
443
00:26:56,548 --> 00:26:59,516
- "And I was hitting her bone,
and then as she turned around,
444
00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:01,349
"I was stabbing her
in the chest.
445
00:27:01,392 --> 00:27:03,530
"Her breasts were there,
446
00:27:03,573 --> 00:27:05,886
"but I couldn't stab her.
That'd be terrible
447
00:27:05,929 --> 00:27:07,850
for me to stab her
in the breasts."
448
00:27:08,852 --> 00:27:10,381
And it just seemed so weird
449
00:27:10,424 --> 00:27:11,514
what's going through
his brain.
450
00:27:12,997 --> 00:27:15,398
So then he tosses them
both in the trunk of his car.
451
00:27:15,441 --> 00:27:17,361
- I slammed down the lid
of the trunk.
452
00:27:18,321 --> 00:27:19,979
She isn't dead.
She's dying.
453
00:27:21,593 --> 00:27:22,901
And I panicked.
I thought,
454
00:27:22,945 --> 00:27:24,385
I just locked
the car keys in there
455
00:27:24,429 --> 00:27:26,611
'cause I can't find them
in my pocket.
456
00:27:26,654 --> 00:27:28,705
Oh, my God,
I locked them in the trunk.
457
00:27:28,748 --> 00:27:31,323
I'm kicking on the trunk lid
and yanking on it.
458
00:27:31,803 --> 00:27:33,811
Oh, no, I don't believe this.
459
00:27:33,854 --> 00:27:35,118
I stopped. I said,
460
00:27:35,162 --> 00:27:36,602
"Stop and think."
461
00:27:36,646 --> 00:27:38,850
I collected my wits.
462
00:27:38,129 --> 00:27:39,831
Check all your pocket.
463
00:27:40,573 --> 00:27:41,968
I checked all my pockets,
464
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:43,671
and there's the keys
in the back pocket.
465
00:27:43,714 --> 00:27:45,590
I never put them
in my back pocket.
466
00:27:47,740 --> 00:27:49,996
- He's driving now back
to his apartment.
467
00:27:51,218 --> 00:27:53,880
There are two dead bodies
in his trunk.
468
00:27:57,763 --> 00:28:00,469
He was pulled over
for a taillight.
469
00:28:01,907 --> 00:28:04,132
He pulls him over,
and he gets out of the car.
470
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,933
What's wrong, officer?
You have a broken taillight.
471
00:28:10,591 --> 00:28:13,121
And he says, "Do you want
to go check in the trunk
472
00:28:13,165 --> 00:28:15,170
to see what's wrong?
Maybe it's a loose wire."
473
00:28:15,214 --> 00:28:17,900
And the officer then
474
00:28:17,135 --> 00:28:19,840
thinks that this is
the most cooperative citizen
475
00:28:19,884 --> 00:28:21,978
and just gives him a warning.
476
00:28:23,985 --> 00:28:27,380
I said, "Ed." I said,
"What would you have done--
477
00:28:27,820 --> 00:28:29,264
"what would you have done
if he took a look in there?
478
00:28:29,308 --> 00:28:30,834
He's gonna find two bodies."
479
00:28:30,878 --> 00:28:32,711
He was prepared to kill him.
480
00:28:54,395 --> 00:28:57,449
- The first 24 hours,
I should have been busted,
481
00:28:57,493 --> 00:29:01,900
and I wasn't because
people got scared
482
00:29:01,944 --> 00:29:05,696
and minded their own business
and looked the other way.
483
00:29:05,739 --> 00:29:07,572
I thought I was pretty slick.
484
00:29:12,283 --> 00:29:13,549
- He takes those victims,
485
00:29:13,592 --> 00:29:14,684
Pesce and Luchessa,
486
00:29:14,728 --> 00:29:16,473
back to his apartment,
487
00:29:17,564 --> 00:29:18,958
where he then...
488
00:29:20,966 --> 00:29:22,711
eviscerates them...
489
00:29:24,282 --> 00:29:25,679
and has sex with,
490
00:29:25,722 --> 00:29:28,471
you know,
the head and the body parts.
491
00:29:31,613 --> 00:29:34,884
- I think what haunted me
was that he had sex
492
00:29:34,927 --> 00:29:36,847
with both the heads
493
00:29:36,892 --> 00:29:39,553
and with
the decapitated bodies.
494
00:29:40,644 --> 00:29:44,309
You can picture that.
You know, you just can,
495
00:29:44,353 --> 00:29:49,456
and it sounded so brutal
and so cold
496
00:29:49,499 --> 00:29:53,471
and so calculated
and so awful,
497
00:29:53,514 --> 00:29:55,827
just so awful.
498
00:29:55,871 --> 00:29:59,711
- But what people can't really
understand easily is,
499
00:29:59,754 --> 00:30:02,502
why do they have to go
beyond the murder,
500
00:30:02,545 --> 00:30:04,815
and the answer is,
the killing alone
501
00:30:04,858 --> 00:30:07,389
is not
psychosexually sufficient.
502
00:30:08,567 --> 00:30:10,705
And the idea is,
someone kills someone
503
00:30:10,749 --> 00:30:12,405
and then has sex
with the body,
504
00:30:12,449 --> 00:30:14,108
because if she was alive,
505
00:30:14,151 --> 00:30:16,420
he'd be too intimidated,
so if you kill her,
506
00:30:16,464 --> 00:30:18,122
she's unresisting.
507
00:30:18,165 --> 00:30:19,911
- He felt he would
be rejected.
508
00:30:19,955 --> 00:30:23,530
His sex life,
it was almost nonexistent.
509
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:24,884
I don't think
he felt comfortable
510
00:30:24,928 --> 00:30:27,545
that he could have sex with
a woman when she was alive.
511
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:30,993
By murdering them
and dismembering them,
512
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,917
having sex with them,
he was able to possess them
513
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,537
in a way that he felt he
couldn't possess them alive.
514
00:31:28,190 --> 00:31:31,247
- The only effect it had on him
is ,"God, this was tough.
515
00:31:31,291 --> 00:31:32,948
"It was tough killing them.
516
00:31:32,991 --> 00:31:34,825
"I thought
it would be a lot easier.
517
00:31:34,868 --> 00:31:37,930
"I have to maybe modify
my M.O.
518
00:31:37,137 --> 00:31:39,187
a little bit in the future."
519
00:31:48,786 --> 00:31:51,274
- My mother was a sick, angry,
520
00:31:51,317 --> 00:31:55,690
hungry, and very sad woman.
521
00:31:55,114 --> 00:31:58,908
I hated her,
but I wanted to love my mother,
522
00:31:58,951 --> 00:32:01,221
and I watched
the alcohol increase.
523
00:32:01,264 --> 00:32:03,882
I watched her
social life drop off.
524
00:32:03,926 --> 00:32:06,326
I watched her get bizarre.
525
00:32:06,369 --> 00:32:09,423
She had terrible pain
from her life, earlier life,
526
00:32:09,466 --> 00:32:11,343
her upbringing,
527
00:32:11,386 --> 00:32:13,440
a failed marriage
with my father.
528
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,960
I'm a constant reminder
of that failure.
529
00:32:18,194 --> 00:32:20,157
- His mother belittled him.
530
00:32:20,986 --> 00:32:22,556
Told him that nobody's
gonna want him,
531
00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:24,257
that he was no good.
532
00:32:28,141 --> 00:32:30,323
- She was an alcoholic.
533
00:32:30,366 --> 00:32:32,373
She would come home soused
at nighttime
534
00:32:32,417 --> 00:32:34,750
and tell him,
"You, you bum, I haven't had
535
00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:35,950
sexual relations
with a man in seven years."
536
00:32:35,993 --> 00:32:37,913
Everything was on him.
537
00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:46,597
Now, Kemper, he had
what we call a murder kit.
538
00:32:46,641 --> 00:32:50,567
A murder kit would include
a knife, a gun, a gag, cuffs.
539
00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:55,104
The next victim, Aiko Koo,
was precipitated on the fact
540
00:32:55,147 --> 00:32:57,635
that his mother
was on his case again.
541
00:32:57,679 --> 00:33:00,471
- Aiko Koo was a little girl,
really.
542
00:33:00,515 --> 00:33:02,391
She was just 15 years old,
543
00:33:02,435 --> 00:33:05,800
and she had been going
to dance class.
544
00:33:07,539 --> 00:33:10,332
- She misses a bus,
so she's hitchhiking.
545
00:33:11,684 --> 00:33:13,342
Up comes Kemper, sees her
546
00:33:13,387 --> 00:33:15,523
at a distance,
perfect victim, petite.
547
00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:24,599
- She gets into
the car with him,
548
00:33:24,642 --> 00:33:26,345
and he starts driving.
549
00:33:28,395 --> 00:33:31,361
She realizes she's not being
taken where she wants to go.
550
00:33:53,525 --> 00:33:57,627
- And he pulls a gun on her.
It freaks her out.
551
00:33:57,670 --> 00:34:00,200
So he soon realizes that
"I can't do this with a gun,"
552
00:34:00,245 --> 00:34:02,165
so he hides the gun
'cause she's freaking out,
553
00:34:02,208 --> 00:34:04,260
so she calms down.
554
00:34:05,219 --> 00:34:08,796
Then he has to get out
of the car for some reason.
555
00:34:10,978 --> 00:34:13,900
But the mistake
that he made was,
556
00:34:13,945 --> 00:34:15,865
is that he locked himself
out of the car
557
00:34:15,908 --> 00:34:18,876
with Aiko Koo in the car,
with his gun.
558
00:34:21,929 --> 00:34:25,288
He was such a mastermind,
a manipulator.
559
00:34:26,291 --> 00:34:28,370
He was able to convince her,
560
00:34:28,820 --> 00:34:31,354
to talk her into
opening up that door.
561
00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:36,650
- She let me back in the car.
562
00:34:36,109 --> 00:34:38,720
I locked myself out.
563
00:34:38,116 --> 00:34:40,341
She opened the door for me.
564
00:34:41,999 --> 00:34:44,661
What in the hell am I
doing telling you that?
565
00:34:44,705 --> 00:34:48,893
Am I a masochist? Am I looking
to be tormented further?
566
00:34:48,936 --> 00:34:52,780
I'm trying to show
you just how
567
00:34:52,121 --> 00:34:56,135
awful this got,
how commanding these rages got.
568
00:34:59,580 --> 00:35:02,942
- He's gonna use a scarf on her
to strangle her to death.
569
00:35:06,912 --> 00:35:09,137
Then he decapitates her.
570
00:35:11,711 --> 00:35:13,413
- Why did you keep the heads?
571
00:35:13,456 --> 00:35:15,550
Why did you cut them off,
and why did you keep them?
572
00:35:15,594 --> 00:35:18,125
- Something out
of my childhood.
573
00:35:18,169 --> 00:35:20,655
Um...
574
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:22,751
I could put it on an incident,
I mean,
575
00:35:22,794 --> 00:35:25,585
my father chopping the heads
off our two pet chickens
576
00:35:25,629 --> 00:35:28,639
and my mother insisting
that I eat them for dinner.
577
00:35:28,683 --> 00:35:30,647
Uh
you know?
578
00:35:30,690 --> 00:35:32,567
We could say it was something
that simple.
579
00:35:32,610 --> 00:35:34,510
I don't think it was.
580
00:35:34,940 --> 00:35:36,625
Now, my dad heads out back
with a hatchet.
581
00:35:37,170 --> 00:35:38,761
I got on my bike,
and I rode over.
582
00:35:38,806 --> 00:35:40,507
I tried to stop it.
I remember that.
583
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:43,380
I got on a bike,
rode around the block.
584
00:35:43,820 --> 00:35:47,900
I was crying. I haven't talked
about that for a lot of years.
585
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,714
I'm sure that may have
implemented something.
586
00:35:49,757 --> 00:35:53,300
That may have gotten something
rolling along fantasy lines,
587
00:35:53,730 --> 00:35:54,905
but it took a lot of years
of development
588
00:35:54,949 --> 00:35:57,261
along those lines
to really get off.
589
00:36:01,275 --> 00:36:03,650
- The day after he murdered
Aiko Koo,
590
00:36:03,108 --> 00:36:05,115
he had to see a psychiatrist.
591
00:36:05,988 --> 00:36:08,820
- When he got out
of Atascadero as a juvenile,
592
00:36:08,125 --> 00:36:10,450
he had to go through
a certain period of time
593
00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:11,747
and then be reevaluated.
594
00:36:12,926 --> 00:36:15,195
- Kemper was smart.
595
00:36:15,238 --> 00:36:17,375
He knew what they were looking
for to determine
596
00:36:17,418 --> 00:36:19,993
whether or not
someone was sane or insane,
597
00:36:20,370 --> 00:36:23,222
and because of that,
he did extremely well.
598
00:36:25,404 --> 00:36:27,672
- Kemper is gonna say,
"You guys cured me
599
00:36:27,716 --> 00:36:29,244
over there at Atascadero.
600
00:36:29,287 --> 00:36:31,293
You guys are phenomenal."
601
00:36:31,337 --> 00:36:34,410
And so the psychiatrist
did what he thought was
602
00:36:34,850 --> 00:36:36,930
right and basically said,
"He's fine.
603
00:36:36,136 --> 00:36:37,882
He doesn't need us anymore."
604
00:36:41,939 --> 00:36:45,909
- Well, what they didn't know
is that Aiko Koo's head
605
00:36:45,952 --> 00:36:49,313
happened to be
in the trunk of his vehicle.
606
00:36:53,370 --> 00:36:58,213
- He had bodies in his trunk
when he was declared sane.
607
00:36:58,257 --> 00:37:01,268
It really bothered me
as a therapist
608
00:37:01,311 --> 00:37:05,238
that two psychiatrists
had declared him sane.
609
00:37:05,282 --> 00:37:07,158
I was horrified.
610
00:37:08,945 --> 00:37:10,823
- In the meantime,
bodies were turning up
611
00:37:10,866 --> 00:37:13,309
in the city of Santa Cruz
that might've been linked
612
00:37:13,352 --> 00:37:16,189
toward the drug industry,
but we had no idea.
613
00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:27,402
- My first day at work, my very
first story that I wrote
614
00:37:27,446 --> 00:37:30,370
was that a head had been found
in the Santa Cruz mountains.
615
00:37:30,413 --> 00:37:32,202
It was a shock to everybody.
616
00:37:34,121 --> 00:37:36,608
- It's like a fog settled
over the county.
617
00:37:36,652 --> 00:37:38,484
People were scared.
618
00:37:38,527 --> 00:37:41,102
- Being a small person
--I'm 5'1"--
619
00:37:41,145 --> 00:37:42,541
I never saw myself
as somebody
620
00:37:42,585 --> 00:37:45,291
that could defend myself.
I never felt safe.
621
00:37:45,335 --> 00:37:47,298
- Police were besides
themselves.
622
00:37:47,342 --> 00:37:49,349
What the hell
do they have going on here?
623
00:37:49,392 --> 00:37:52,359
Surf City was now evolving
into Murder City.
624
00:37:53,363 --> 00:37:54,976
- We were under a lot
of pressure.
625
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,333
People would always want
to know what's happening.
626
00:37:57,377 --> 00:37:58,772
Why is this happening?
627
00:37:58,816 --> 00:38:00,475
We had no idea.
628
00:38:00,518 --> 00:38:02,481
We didn't have
any real crime scenes,
629
00:38:02,525 --> 00:38:05,980
so the evidence
couldn't be traced back.
630
00:38:05,141 --> 00:38:07,499
- There is no apparent motive.
631
00:38:07,542 --> 00:38:09,288
The victims are all unrelated,
632
00:38:09,332 --> 00:38:11,687
and they're just unprovoked,
senseless killings.
633
00:38:11,730 --> 00:38:13,389
- There wasn't DNA evidence.
634
00:38:13,433 --> 00:38:14,610
There wasn't anything
like that,
635
00:38:14,653 --> 00:38:16,443
so they were trying to track
636
00:38:16,486 --> 00:38:18,625
where bodies were coming from,
637
00:38:18,668 --> 00:38:20,500
what pattern there was
in there, and it was hard
638
00:38:20,544 --> 00:38:22,289
to figure out
any sort of pattern.
639
00:38:22,333 --> 00:38:24,471
They would just throw up
their hands and say,
640
00:38:24,514 --> 00:38:26,216
"We don't know
what's happening."
641
00:38:33,197 --> 00:38:35,466
- We're still fighting.
She's still belittling.
642
00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:37,298
I'm like a puppet on a string.
643
00:38:37,341 --> 00:38:38,608
- It's like boiling water,
644
00:38:38,651 --> 00:38:40,439
and he can only take
so much of this.
645
00:38:41,618 --> 00:38:44,759
- I knew a week before she died
I was gonna kill my mother.
646
00:39:03,171 --> 00:39:05,833
- The minute he'd get upset
with something,
647
00:39:05,876 --> 00:39:08,887
his immediate response
was to kill.
648
00:39:08,930 --> 00:39:12,377
- And once he did it once,
it was so stimulating
649
00:39:12,421 --> 00:39:14,908
and so arousing that the urge
650
00:39:14,951 --> 00:39:18,529
or the compulsion to do it
again just took over.
651
00:39:18,574 --> 00:39:20,316
- But rather than strike out
at mom at this point,
652
00:39:20,361 --> 00:39:21,975
he's going on the hunt.
653
00:39:24,506 --> 00:39:26,949
He's a lion on
the Serengeti plain
654
00:39:26,993 --> 00:39:29,870
looking for that weak,
vulnerable person.
655
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,970
- I was picking up some
very lovely young women.
656
00:39:32,839 --> 00:39:35,370
You know what we were talking
about as we're driving around?
657
00:39:35,414 --> 00:39:37,334
Almost as often as not,
658
00:39:37,377 --> 00:39:39,602
this guy that's going
around doing this stuff,
659
00:39:39,646 --> 00:39:41,522
and the second
they started talking that,
660
00:39:41,566 --> 00:39:44,533
they didn't realize it, but
they were getting a free ride.
661
00:39:44,576 --> 00:39:47,456
I couldn't touch that
with a 10-foot pole, I swear.
662
00:39:47,499 --> 00:39:49,375
But they'd be telling me
all about this guy,
663
00:39:49,418 --> 00:39:50,860
and they're comparing notes,
664
00:39:50,903 --> 00:39:52,473
speculating on
what he looks like,
665
00:39:52,516 --> 00:39:55,310
how he carries himself,
why he's doing this stuff,
666
00:39:55,353 --> 00:39:56,663
telling me about it.
667
00:39:57,404 --> 00:39:58,930
- So how come they get
in a car
668
00:39:58,974 --> 00:40:00,283
with somebody at that time?
669
00:40:00,327 --> 00:40:02,464
- She judged me
not to be that guy.
670
00:40:04,384 --> 00:40:06,129
I didn't look like him.
671
00:40:09,752 --> 00:40:12,150
- He was getting
better and better.
672
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,659
- And one of the things
that he told me was,
673
00:40:20,702 --> 00:40:23,150
eventually,
when he picked somebody up,
674
00:40:23,590 --> 00:40:24,672
once they got in and sat down
675
00:40:24,715 --> 00:40:26,461
and they closed
the passenger door,
676
00:40:27,683 --> 00:40:31,130
he would reach across that
passenger, open up the door,
677
00:40:31,174 --> 00:40:32,788
and close it,
pretending to make sure
678
00:40:32,832 --> 00:40:35,144
that the door was closed,
but in actuality
679
00:40:35,188 --> 00:40:37,456
he was dropping
a ChapStick in the track,
680
00:40:37,499 --> 00:40:40,161
so that you could not open
the door from the inside.
681
00:40:43,608 --> 00:40:45,660
And he figured once
they got in the car,
682
00:40:45,703 --> 00:40:47,622
they belonged to him.
683
00:41:35,398 --> 00:41:37,360
- When he decapitated her,
684
00:41:37,405 --> 00:41:39,848
he then went outside
with the head
685
00:41:40,808 --> 00:41:43,643
and placed this victim's
head in the ground,
686
00:41:43,687 --> 00:41:47,309
facing up at mom's window.
Why'd you do that?
687
00:41:47,353 --> 00:41:49,490
And he laughs, and he says,
688
00:41:49,534 --> 00:41:52,675
"Because Mom always wanted
people to look up to her.
689
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,291
That's why I did it."
690
00:41:54,334 --> 00:41:56,339
He was boasting
about the crime.
691
00:41:57,344 --> 00:42:00,703
- Meanwhile, why his mother
didn't know that
692
00:42:00,747 --> 00:42:03,627
there had been digging going on
in the back yard, I don't know.
693
00:42:03,671 --> 00:42:05,852
Neighbors could've found out.
It was a small backyard.
694
00:42:05,895 --> 00:42:07,162
There was a fence around it,
695
00:42:07,205 --> 00:42:08,774
but, you know,
it was very visible
696
00:42:08,818 --> 00:42:11,349
from the other houses.
I'm just trying to think
697
00:42:11,392 --> 00:42:13,181
what time of day
he must've buried them.
698
00:42:13,225 --> 00:42:16,497
- It was getting easier to do.
I was getting better at it.
699
00:42:16,541 --> 00:42:17,894
I was getting less detectible.
700
00:42:17,937 --> 00:42:21,950
I started flaunting
that invisibility.
701
00:42:21,994 --> 00:42:23,871
Severing a human head at night
702
00:42:23,915 --> 00:42:26,664
in front of my mother's
residence with her at home,
703
00:42:26,707 --> 00:42:28,539
my neighbors at home upstairs,
704
00:42:28,583 --> 00:42:30,852
their picture window open,
the curtains open.
705
00:42:30,896 --> 00:42:32,903
11:00 at night,
the lights are on.
706
00:42:32,947 --> 00:42:35,694
All they have to do is walk
by, look out, and I've had it.
707
00:42:36,655 --> 00:42:39,971
To be walking up the stairs
with a camera bag
708
00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:41,933
that belonged to a young woman
709
00:42:41,978 --> 00:42:43,811
that had her
severed head in it,
710
00:42:43,854 --> 00:42:46,777
walking up to my apartment,
past a happy young couple
711
00:42:46,822 --> 00:42:48,478
coming down the stairs
712
00:42:48,521 --> 00:42:51,960
who nodded and smiled at me
713
00:42:51,139 --> 00:42:54,630
as they went by.
"Good evening."
714
00:42:54,107 --> 00:42:55,678
And they're going out
on a date,
715
00:42:55,721 --> 00:42:57,336
where I'd love to be going,
716
00:42:57,379 --> 00:42:59,344
and I'm aware of both
of these realities,
717
00:42:59,387 --> 00:43:02,702
and the distance between those
is so dramatic,
718
00:43:02,746 --> 00:43:07,240
so amazing,
so violent that it really--
719
00:43:07,283 --> 00:43:09,727
I could feel the wheels
squeaking inside.
720
00:43:09,770 --> 00:43:11,777
Some people go crazy
at that point.
721
00:43:11,821 --> 00:43:13,610
I felt it.
It was one hell of a tweak,
722
00:43:13,654 --> 00:43:15,748
and I imagine at that point
some people break,
723
00:43:15,791 --> 00:43:17,929
but I didn't literally
go insane.
724
00:43:17,972 --> 00:43:19,762
I didn't get lost.
725
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:30,800
- Remember, Edmund Kemper
wanted to be a policeman,
726
00:43:30,843 --> 00:43:33,331
but there was no way
he was gonna be a policeman,
727
00:43:33,374 --> 00:43:35,338
but he did like to hang out
with the policemen
728
00:43:35,381 --> 00:43:37,825
at the Jury Room
on Ocean Street.
729
00:43:39,919 --> 00:43:41,969
And he knew them.
He drank with them.
730
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,154
- Sleazy little bar
731
00:43:45,199 --> 00:43:47,904
across from the courthouse
in Santa Cruz.
732
00:43:48,864 --> 00:43:51,450
A lot of cops would go there
in those days
733
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,182
and have a drink.
734
00:43:56,367 --> 00:43:58,418
He loved to hang out there.
735
00:43:59,945 --> 00:44:01,385
He was a real groupie.
736
00:44:01,429 --> 00:44:03,870
- It's what they call
a wannabe.
737
00:44:06,970 --> 00:44:08,802
- They'd buy me a beer.
I'd buy them a beer.
738
00:44:08,846 --> 00:44:11,420
Casual relationships.
But that was--I was poking
739
00:44:11,464 --> 00:44:14,126
around a little bit, trying
to find some things out.
740
00:44:14,169 --> 00:44:16,263
I knew they wouldn't be privy
to hot information,
741
00:44:16,307 --> 00:44:18,314
but there were some things
that were bothering me.
742
00:44:18,358 --> 00:44:20,580
Like, were there
any speculations
743
00:44:20,102 --> 00:44:21,804
on how they were dying.
744
00:44:21,847 --> 00:44:23,505
- Did the cops like you?
745
00:44:25,770 --> 00:44:26,909
- I could say,
a friendly nuisance.
746
00:44:26,952 --> 00:44:30,137
I got in the way,
and it was deliberate.
747
00:44:30,181 --> 00:44:32,570
Friendly nuisances
are dismissed.
748
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:36,945
- He was just trying to gain
whatever information he can.
749
00:44:36,988 --> 00:44:39,343
If he overheard
somebody say, "Well,
750
00:44:39,387 --> 00:44:41,220
this guy did this,
and he shouldn't have
751
00:44:41,263 --> 00:44:43,227
done it that way.
He should've done it this way.
752
00:44:43,270 --> 00:44:47,895
- The dynamics of this type
of behavior are very important
753
00:44:47,938 --> 00:44:49,990
to make him feel unique,
754
00:44:50,330 --> 00:44:51,517
to make him feel
755
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,470
ahead of everybody else,
of getting away with it.
756
00:44:54,910 --> 00:44:56,448
He's kind of the super killer,
757
00:44:56,491 --> 00:44:59,210
not just an ordinary killer,
758
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,377
that he can put it
over on them.
759
00:45:02,467 --> 00:45:04,820
- High intelligence like that
760
00:45:04,126 --> 00:45:06,482
helps Kemper
in avoiding detection.
761
00:45:06,526 --> 00:45:08,530
- How did you get
the knowledge
762
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,610
to outsmart the police?
763
00:45:10,104 --> 00:45:12,765
- Watching television,
believe it or not.
764
00:45:13,462 --> 00:45:15,513
Joseph Wambaugh,
"Police Story."
765
00:45:15,556 --> 00:45:18,741
I got some tremendous insights
into not just the gimmicks,
766
00:45:18,785 --> 00:45:20,487
the actual things, the tidbits
767
00:45:20,531 --> 00:45:22,713
that you would pick up
from their procedures
768
00:45:22,756 --> 00:45:26,203
but the mechanics behind that,
the logic behind it
769
00:45:26,246 --> 00:45:28,427
was, I would not allow myself
to walk into
770
00:45:28,471 --> 00:45:31,569
even a potential trap
of behavior.
771
00:45:32,617 --> 00:45:36,326
And one of those was talking
about those crimes too much
772
00:45:36,369 --> 00:45:39,640
to people, initiating
conversations about that.
773
00:45:39,685 --> 00:45:43,873
- He likes to claim that he's
smarter than everybody else.
774
00:45:43,917 --> 00:45:45,400
He may be.
775
00:45:51,682 --> 00:45:54,213
- Some police department, now,
they actually
776
00:45:54,256 --> 00:45:56,657
came to your house
to pick up a handgun.
777
00:45:56,700 --> 00:45:58,140
- Sheriff's representatives.
778
00:45:58,183 --> 00:46:00,671
One of the detectives was
779
00:46:00,714 --> 00:46:04,161
upset because he heard
I had a .44 magnum pistol
780
00:46:04,204 --> 00:46:08,350
and was a convicted
mental patient and killer.
781
00:46:09,746 --> 00:46:12,888
- I got a notification
that a man by the name
782
00:46:12,931 --> 00:46:16,901
of Edmund Emil Kemper III
had purchased a handgun.
783
00:46:16,944 --> 00:46:18,864
In looking at
Mr. Kemper's record,
784
00:46:18,908 --> 00:46:22,399
he had been convicted
of murdering his grandparents
785
00:46:22,442 --> 00:46:25,410
a few years earlier, so there
was some question as to
786
00:46:25,453 --> 00:46:27,897
whether or not he should be
allowed to own that gun,
787
00:46:27,941 --> 00:46:29,859
so when you look
at the dealer's record of sale,
788
00:46:29,902 --> 00:46:31,605
it gives
his physical description.
789
00:46:31,648 --> 00:46:33,611
- They joked about it
at the sheriff's department.
790
00:46:33,655 --> 00:46:35,445
This guy's 6'9" or 6'10".
791
00:46:35,488 --> 00:46:37,627
I'm gonna need some help
getting the gun away.
792
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:39,327
- So being
the junior detective,
793
00:46:39,372 --> 00:46:40,899
I was the one
that was tasked with
794
00:46:40,942 --> 00:46:43,341
going out
and confiscating this weapon.
795
00:46:45,348 --> 00:46:47,443
So we went out
to Kemper's residence.
796
00:46:49,130 --> 00:46:50,498
- They came to take
the gun away,
797
00:46:50,541 --> 00:46:52,670
he and his sergeant detective.
798
00:46:52,111 --> 00:46:53,944
They were staking out
the wrong house.
799
00:46:53,988 --> 00:46:55,688
It was across the street,
and I'm playing around
800
00:46:55,732 --> 00:46:57,696
with the car,
standing next to the gun
801
00:46:57,739 --> 00:46:59,480
in the trunk.
802
00:47:00,226 --> 00:47:02,365
- So I told Don, I says,
"Hang on a second.
803
00:47:02,408 --> 00:47:05,113
Let's go talk to this guy
and see if he knows Kemper."
804
00:47:06,990 --> 00:47:10,420
So I walk over, and by then
the gentleman in the car
805
00:47:10,870 --> 00:47:11,919
was lying across the seat
806
00:47:11,962 --> 00:47:14,140
like he's working up
under his dashboard,
807
00:47:14,570 --> 00:47:16,806
like, wires
or something like that.
808
00:47:16,850 --> 00:47:19,740
So I said, "Excuse me,
can I talk to you?"
809
00:47:19,118 --> 00:47:22,215
The guy says, "Sure."
So he gets out of the car,
810
00:47:22,260 --> 00:47:25,837
and he gets out of the car,
and he gets out of the car.
811
00:47:26,928 --> 00:47:30,700
He's 6'9", 285 pounds.
812
00:47:30,113 --> 00:47:31,466
I told Don. I said,
813
00:47:31,509 --> 00:47:32,907
"I think we found
the right guy."
814
00:47:34,868 --> 00:47:38,839
- I knew a week before she died
I was gonna murder my mother.
815
00:47:38,882 --> 00:47:41,640
- He drags her
over into the kitchen.
816
00:47:41,108 --> 00:47:45,122
- I cut off her head,
and I humiliated her corpse.
817
00:47:45,165 --> 00:47:46,955
- Having sex
with his mother's head,
818
00:47:46,998 --> 00:47:49,224
I don't know
what it says psychologically.
819
00:47:49,267 --> 00:47:53,369
- Six young women dead because
of the way she raises her son,
820
00:47:53,412 --> 00:47:56,248
and what's her closing words?
821
00:47:56,292 --> 00:47:58,735
"I suppose you want to sit up
all night and talk."
822
00:47:58,778 --> 00:48:00,697
God, I wish I had.
823
00:48:18,456 --> 00:48:20,768
- A week ago today, four more
bodies were discovered
824
00:48:20,812 --> 00:48:22,775
in a connected series
of murders.
825
00:48:22,820 --> 00:48:26,528
- Neither the mayor nor police
are making any predictions
826
00:48:26,572 --> 00:48:29,756
as to when or how
an arrest will be made.
827
00:48:29,799 --> 00:48:31,720
- Women hitchhikers
were in danger.
828
00:48:31,764 --> 00:48:33,726
Not just were body parts
flowing in,
829
00:48:33,770 --> 00:48:36,737
but people were missing,
and nobody was understanding.
830
00:48:48,823 --> 00:48:50,960
- They come over and asked
me about,
831
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,621
"Excuse me, sir, uh,
832
00:48:53,665 --> 00:48:55,803
do you know who lives in this
house across the street here?"
833
00:48:55,847 --> 00:48:58,465
And they were looking for me
and didn't even know that--
834
00:48:58,508 --> 00:49:00,559
see what I mean?
Bad news.
835
00:49:00,603 --> 00:49:03,875
They said, "Are you Ed Kemper?"
Yes. And it goes on.
836
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:09,896
- I explained to him
why we were there,
837
00:49:09,939 --> 00:49:11,598
what our position is,
that we needed
838
00:49:11,642 --> 00:49:13,648
to confiscate this handgun.
839
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:17,510
So he said, "Sure, no problem."
He was very cooperative.
840
00:49:17,950 --> 00:49:20,673
- And, uh, I needed to find out
what they were looking for,
841
00:49:20,716 --> 00:49:23,290
the murder weapon,
the .22 automatic
842
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:25,428
or the .44 magnum,
and I don't want to advertise
843
00:49:25,472 --> 00:49:27,523
that I've got
a whole bunch of guns.
844
00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:29,617
Uh...
845
00:49:30,709 --> 00:49:34,852
So I made a comment to divine
between the two,
846
00:49:34,897 --> 00:49:37,470
and I said, "Yes, quite
a little gun, isn't it?"
847
00:49:37,514 --> 00:49:41,484
And he retorted, "A .44 magnum?
I hope so."
848
00:49:41,529 --> 00:49:44,495
And I said, "Phew, okay,"
because that loaded .22
849
00:49:44,539 --> 00:49:46,152
was under the front seat
and would guarantee me
850
00:49:46,196 --> 00:49:48,683
an arrest
right on the spot,
851
00:49:48,727 --> 00:49:51,258
and the .44 was in the trunk.
852
00:49:54,940 --> 00:49:55,752
And he's thinking,
"Boy, this is a really nice
853
00:49:55,796 --> 00:49:57,620
and helpful guy here."
854
00:49:57,934 --> 00:50:00,595
- We go to the trunk
of his car.
855
00:50:00,638 --> 00:50:02,644
Instinctively,
my partner and I
856
00:50:02,688 --> 00:50:05,263
went to each side of the car.
857
00:50:06,791 --> 00:50:09,670
And so as soon as he popped
open the trunk,
858
00:50:09,714 --> 00:50:12,855
we told him just to step back
and we would take it.
859
00:50:13,946 --> 00:50:15,341
So we opened up the trunk,
860
00:50:15,385 --> 00:50:17,916
and there was--it's,
like, a blanket,
861
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:19,269
and you unroll the blanket,
862
00:50:19,313 --> 00:50:20,927
and there was
this western holster
863
00:50:20,971 --> 00:50:24,372
with this huge
.44 magnum revolver in there,
864
00:50:24,417 --> 00:50:25,857
so we took it.
865
00:50:27,515 --> 00:50:29,348
- You had some other stuff
in the house too, yeah?
866
00:50:29,391 --> 00:50:32,520
- Yeah.
I had the personal effects
867
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:34,321
and identification
of the last two co-eds
868
00:50:34,365 --> 00:50:37,288
that had been murdered
about two months before
869
00:50:37,331 --> 00:50:40,953
right next to the guns
in the closet, in a box.
870
00:50:41,956 --> 00:50:43,788
- Could he have seen it?
- No.
871
00:50:43,832 --> 00:50:45,840
But when he arrested me
for having all those guns
872
00:50:45,883 --> 00:50:47,715
and went through the rest
of the closet looking to see
873
00:50:47,759 --> 00:50:49,331
if there were any pistols
or anything else,
874
00:50:49,374 --> 00:50:51,310
he wouldn't have--couldn't have
helped notice
875
00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:53,387
a purse, a book bag,
876
00:50:53,431 --> 00:50:55,264
and co-ed I.D.
inside of those
877
00:50:55,307 --> 00:50:58,274
belonging to their two
latest murder victims.
878
00:51:01,256 --> 00:51:04,222
- He told me later
that had Don and I
879
00:51:04,266 --> 00:51:07,640
not separated
to each side of the car,
880
00:51:06,928 --> 00:51:09,270
that he was contemplating
getting the gun out
881
00:51:09,700 --> 00:51:10,636
and killing both of us.
882
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:12,731
In the meantime,
all of these other homicides
883
00:51:12,774 --> 00:51:15,655
are occurring,
and we had no clue.
884
00:51:16,352 --> 00:51:18,227
He was a very smart guy.
885
00:51:29,922 --> 00:51:31,928
- We're still fighting.
She's still belittling me,
886
00:51:31,972 --> 00:51:34,284
like a puppet on a string.
She knows all my buttons,
887
00:51:34,327 --> 00:51:36,378
and I dance like a puppet
with that pain,
888
00:51:36,422 --> 00:51:38,473
and it even got physical
889
00:51:40,174 --> 00:51:43,590
to where I had physically
grabbed her
890
00:51:42,923 --> 00:51:44,799
and thrown her onto her bed,
891
00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:46,413
trying to emphasize
the point that she's--
892
00:51:46,456 --> 00:51:48,334
I was threatening to kill her.
893
00:51:54,048 --> 00:51:57,145
- Ed Kemper's mother was
an administrative assistant
894
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:59,240
at UC Santa Cruz.
895
00:51:59,284 --> 00:52:01,340
- She was well liked.
896
00:52:01,780 --> 00:52:02,993
She was integrated
into the campus.
897
00:52:04,477 --> 00:52:06,003
She clearly was part of that
898
00:52:06,048 --> 00:52:08,600
Santa Cruz community
at the time.
899
00:52:07,924 --> 00:52:09,362
- You were involved
in the campus
900
00:52:09,406 --> 00:52:11,700
because your mother
worked there.
901
00:52:10,934 --> 00:52:12,111
- Yes.
902
00:52:13,159 --> 00:52:15,166
I was also involved
in killing co-eds
903
00:52:15,209 --> 00:52:17,129
because my mother
was associated
904
00:52:17,173 --> 00:52:20,580
with college work,
college co-eds,
905
00:52:19,921 --> 00:52:21,362
women,
906
00:52:21,405 --> 00:52:24,459
and had had a very strong
and violently
907
00:52:24,502 --> 00:52:30,131
outspoken position on men
for much of my upbringing.
908
00:52:36,413 --> 00:52:38,551
- The university had said
only to accept rides
909
00:52:38,595 --> 00:52:41,955
from people with UC stickers.
Well, his mom worked at UC,
910
00:52:41,998 --> 00:52:44,704
and he was in a car
that had a UC sticker.
911
00:52:48,456 --> 00:52:50,593
- So he looked safe,
912
00:52:50,637 --> 00:52:53,561
and that's how
he was so successful.
913
00:52:58,666 --> 00:53:00,324
- You could see the pattern.
914
00:53:00,367 --> 00:53:03,072
- After a huge fight
with his mother
915
00:53:03,116 --> 00:53:06,213
where they had screamed
at each other for hours...
916
00:53:08,089 --> 00:53:09,573
he would go out and kill.
917
00:53:11,493 --> 00:53:15,157
- The next victims,
Rosalind Thorpe and Alice Liu
918
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,036
were UC Santa Cruz students
919
00:53:18,081 --> 00:53:21,100
who just were too trusting
and got in the car.
920
00:53:23,229 --> 00:53:25,585
- Roz Thorpe
was a free spirit.
921
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:31,780
She was bright and lively.
922
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,704
When she'd get a new record,
she'd run into my office
923
00:53:34,747 --> 00:53:36,755
and say, "Got to hear this,
got to hear this."
924
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,990
When Roz went missing,
they knocked on my door
925
00:53:43,430 --> 00:53:46,530
and said did I know
where Roz Thorpe was.
926
00:53:45,917 --> 00:53:48,622
I knew that they were
beginning to worry
927
00:53:48,667 --> 00:53:50,673
about the existence
of this killer.
928
00:53:53,683 --> 00:53:56,911
And I immediately, um...
929
00:53:58,744 --> 00:54:00,228
worried.
930
00:54:19,948 --> 00:54:22,698
- Edmund Kemper
by this time was very
931
00:54:22,741 --> 00:54:24,748
experienced
at what he was doing.
932
00:54:24,792 --> 00:54:27,497
- I thought it was fascinating,
you know, with him
933
00:54:27,541 --> 00:54:30,071
was, how do you make them
feel comfortable?
934
00:54:30,114 --> 00:54:31,948
What I do, I pull up
and look at them
935
00:54:31,992 --> 00:54:33,648
and I wanted myself kinda
almost look like
936
00:54:33,692 --> 00:54:36,354
a little businessman
but having a place to go,
937
00:54:36,397 --> 00:54:38,580
so I'd look at my watch.
938
00:54:38,623 --> 00:54:41,066
By looking at my watch,
it tells them
939
00:54:41,110 --> 00:54:43,509
that I have an appointment.
I have someplace
940
00:54:43,553 --> 00:54:46,475
to go to, and that kind of,
I believe,
941
00:54:46,519 --> 00:54:48,745
relieved any kind
of stress or hesitation
942
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:51,014
that they had getting
into the car.
943
00:55:24,050 --> 00:55:25,699
- He says that
she's moving around,
944
00:55:25,743 --> 00:55:27,096
trying to cover herself.
945
00:55:27,139 --> 00:55:28,579
She's holding her hands up,
946
00:55:28,623 --> 00:55:31,290
so she gets shot
through the hand.
947
00:56:06,102 --> 00:56:08,370
- He's got both victims
in the car.
948
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:13,450
He has a dead girl in the front
949
00:56:12,909 --> 00:56:17,150
and a girl that is not dead
but moaning in the back.
950
00:56:20,325 --> 00:56:22,202
He said the two policemen,
they were checking
951
00:56:22,245 --> 00:56:24,383
all of the cars going through.
952
00:56:24,426 --> 00:56:26,782
- When I drove up to
the two officers
953
00:56:27,060 --> 00:56:28,703
and stopped, I mean,
they got very industrious
954
00:56:28,747 --> 00:56:30,752
about looking at me,
955
00:56:30,795 --> 00:56:35,116
and I used that opportunity
to glare at them
956
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,258
with that fascist look, like,
"Oh, you fascist pigs.
957
00:56:38,301 --> 00:56:39,915
You'd like to shoot me,
wouldn't you?"
958
00:56:39,959 --> 00:56:41,311
I had sort of a bored,
annoyed,
959
00:56:41,355 --> 00:56:42,970
tired, end of the day,
960
00:56:43,014 --> 00:56:44,932
"I don't need you guys
right now" look
961
00:56:44,976 --> 00:56:47,376
and they backed off
at that point.
962
00:56:47,419 --> 00:56:48,510
- He gets away with it.
963
00:57:22,498 --> 00:57:24,419
- He went into detail
in saying
964
00:57:24,462 --> 00:57:26,774
how he dismembered them
965
00:57:26,970 --> 00:57:29,566
and how one of them
had more fat on her body
966
00:57:29,610 --> 00:57:31,705
than the rest of them did,
and he said he learned
967
00:57:31,748 --> 00:57:35,065
about cutting through
fat of a human body,
968
00:57:35,108 --> 00:57:37,594
and it just turned my stomach.
969
00:58:15,378 --> 00:58:19,742
- When they found
her body parts, uh,
970
00:58:19,786 --> 00:58:22,272
it was shocking.
971
00:58:22,316 --> 00:58:26,112
The students kept coming into
my office to talk about it.
972
00:58:26,156 --> 00:58:30,605
We knew that something
needed to be done to
973
00:58:30,649 --> 00:58:34,150
address the students
and engage them
974
00:58:34,580 --> 00:58:35,668
in expressing their feelings
975
00:58:35,711 --> 00:58:38,023
and dealing with grief
and mourning,
976
00:58:38,066 --> 00:58:41,033
so they decided
to hold this big event,
977
00:58:41,076 --> 00:58:44,000
and about 1,000 students
and faculty showed up.
978
00:58:44,044 --> 00:58:47,185
- There was a memorial service
for two of the victims.
979
00:58:47,229 --> 00:58:49,680
- Yes.
980
00:58:48,931 --> 00:58:51,069
- Were you tempted to go?
- Yes.
981
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,122
I had seen one
too many episodes
982
00:58:54,166 --> 00:58:56,042
of one too many crime shows
983
00:58:56,086 --> 00:58:59,010
where that is one of the
available resources for clues,
984
00:58:59,053 --> 00:59:01,103
tracking down the attenders.
Take--one man
985
00:59:01,146 --> 00:59:03,111
taking pictures
of the people there
986
00:59:03,154 --> 00:59:06,078
to eliminate
as potential suspects.
987
00:59:06,122 --> 00:59:08,083
- He's forensically aware,
988
00:59:08,127 --> 00:59:11,312
he has a good knowledge base
of criminal investigation,
989
00:59:11,356 --> 00:59:14,018
and he's trying his best
to elude law enforcement.
990
00:59:18,949 --> 00:59:21,173
- She says, "You're nothing,
you'll never amount
991
00:59:21,216 --> 00:59:24,052
to anything, and you're
just like your father."
992
00:59:24,096 --> 00:59:25,318
It's like boiling water,
993
00:59:25,362 --> 00:59:27,150
and he can only take
so much of this,
994
00:59:27,194 --> 00:59:30,598
and it's going to, you know,
overflow, and that was it.
995
00:59:38,102 --> 00:59:41,419
It was springtime.
It was April.
996
00:59:43,251 --> 00:59:45,389
And for two months
I hadn't killed, and I said,
997
00:59:45,433 --> 00:59:48,704
"It's not going to happen
to any more girls.
998
00:59:48,748 --> 00:59:50,668
It's got to stay between me
and my mother."
999
00:59:53,373 --> 00:59:57,300
I said, "She's got to die,
or more girls are gonna die,"
1000
00:59:57,344 --> 01:00:00,004
and that's when I decided
I'm going to murder my mother.
1001
01:00:02,797 --> 01:00:06,636
I knew a week before she died
I was gonna kill her.
1002
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:08,687
And she went out to a party.
She got soused.
1003
01:00:08,731 --> 01:00:12,352
She came home, went to sleep.
I was woken up by that.
1004
01:00:12,395 --> 01:00:16,234
I got--came out.
I walked up to her bed.
1005
01:00:16,278 --> 01:00:18,591
She's laying there,
reading a paperback.
1006
01:00:19,725 --> 01:00:21,689
- She says,
in a real sarcastic way,
1007
01:00:21,733 --> 01:00:23,740
"Oh, you're probably gonna
want to talk now, huh?
1008
01:00:23,784 --> 01:00:25,571
You're gonna want to talk."
1009
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,208
- Sh--. I looked at her.
I said, "No."
1010
01:00:33,252 --> 01:00:35,258
I said, "Good night."
1011
01:00:39,402 --> 01:00:41,496
And I knew
I was gonna kill her.
1012
01:00:51,575 --> 01:00:54,455
- He said that he had gone
into her room
1013
01:00:54,499 --> 01:00:57,422
early in the morning, like,
4:00, 5:00 in the morning.
1014
01:01:04,359 --> 01:01:07,260
- He killed her
when she was sound asleep.
1015
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:09,465
He beat her to death
with a claw hammer.
1016
01:01:11,384 --> 01:01:14,482
- Sadism is the infliction
of pain on someone else,
1017
01:01:14,525 --> 01:01:17,622
but more basic
than inflicting pain
1018
01:01:17,666 --> 01:01:20,503
is the sadist having
total control
1019
01:01:20,546 --> 01:01:23,382
and domination
over someone else,
1020
01:01:23,426 --> 01:01:27,571
where inflicting pain is one
way the sadist assures himself
1021
01:01:27,615 --> 01:01:31,061
that he is in fact in control
of her life and death.
1022
01:01:31,105 --> 01:01:33,635
Killing his mother
was very, very different,
1023
01:01:33,678 --> 01:01:35,643
up close and personal.
1024
01:01:35,686 --> 01:01:38,435
- He's not finished yet.
He then takes the mother
1025
01:01:38,479 --> 01:01:40,486
and drags her
over into the kitchen.
1026
01:01:42,362 --> 01:01:47,902
- I cut off her head,
and I humiliated her corpse.
1027
01:01:49,168 --> 01:01:52,004
- He put it on the mantel.
He threw darts at it.
1028
01:01:52,048 --> 01:01:54,360
- And he spends over an hour
1029
01:01:54,403 --> 01:01:56,628
chewing her out
and yelling at her.
1030
01:01:58,723 --> 01:02:00,424
- It hurts.
1031
01:02:01,647 --> 01:02:04,045
'Cause I'm not a lizard.
I'm not from under a rock.
1032
01:02:04,089 --> 01:02:06,402
I came out of her vagina.
1033
01:02:06,446 --> 01:02:08,759
I came out of my mother,
1034
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,158
and in a rage,
I went right back in.
1035
01:02:13,426 --> 01:02:16,567
- He hated her.
He wanted to defile her
1036
01:02:16,612 --> 01:02:19,578
in any possible way
that he could, and he did it.
1037
01:02:19,622 --> 01:02:21,543
- He does penetrate her head.
1038
01:02:21,586 --> 01:02:23,635
- Having sex
with his mother's head,
1039
01:02:23,679 --> 01:02:25,773
I don't know what it says
psychologically
1040
01:02:25,970 --> 01:02:29,613
because it's unstudied.
All we can do is speculate,
1041
01:02:29,657 --> 01:02:32,188
and I think the behavior
speaks for itself.
1042
01:02:35,329 --> 01:02:36,987
- It's not done.
1043
01:02:38,208 --> 01:02:39,779
He decided to cut out
her tongue
1044
01:02:40,020 --> 01:02:42,658
and rip out her larynx
'cause she's such a nag.
1045
01:02:42,703 --> 01:02:45,650
He then throws it down
the garbage disposal.
1046
01:02:45,900 --> 01:02:47,590
- He describes
throwing the larynx
1047
01:02:47,634 --> 01:02:49,901
into the garbage disposal,
popping out.
1048
01:02:49,945 --> 01:02:52,083
Him catching it,
throwing back it
1049
01:02:52,126 --> 01:02:54,526
in the garbage disposal,
popping out again.
1050
01:02:54,570 --> 01:02:56,795
- And he says, "Even now.
Even now, you bitch.
1051
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:01,028
"Even now, after this,
you're still nagging me.
1052
01:03:01,071 --> 01:03:03,602
I hate you. You're still,
you know, nagging me."
1053
01:03:06,263 --> 01:03:08,662
- She just ridiculed him
his whole life,
1054
01:03:08,706 --> 01:03:11,760
and symbolically he just wanted
to take her voice box out
1055
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,770
and throw it in the garbage
where he thought it belonged.
1056
01:03:15,970 --> 01:03:18,959
- Clearly he was trying to kill
his mother's voice,
1057
01:03:19,003 --> 01:03:21,359
even though she was dead.
1058
01:03:21,403 --> 01:03:25,242
- So there, you know.
1059
01:03:25,286 --> 01:03:29,169
Six young women dead because
of the way she raises her son
1060
01:03:29,213 --> 01:03:31,045
and the way her son is raised,
1061
01:03:31,088 --> 01:03:35,015
the way he grows up,
and what's her closing words?
1062
01:03:35,059 --> 01:03:38,767
"I suppose you want to sit up
all night and talk."
1063
01:03:38,910 --> 01:03:40,470
God, I wish I had.
1064
01:03:44,483 --> 01:03:50,740
I was suicidal, very disturbed,
1065
01:03:49,938 --> 01:03:51,901
grasping out at someone
'cause I was tired
1066
01:03:51,945 --> 01:03:54,038
of people walking
away from me.
1067
01:03:54,081 --> 01:03:56,133
- We studied him.
We know all about him.
1068
01:03:56,176 --> 01:03:58,925
We know your motivation.
We know what makes you tick.
1069
01:03:58,969 --> 01:04:02,416
Now we can profile
other serial offenders.
1070
01:04:20,216 --> 01:04:21,744
- I still loved my mother,
1071
01:04:21,788 --> 01:04:23,227
and it's hard for somebody
to comprehend
1072
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:25,496
that you murdered
your mother through love.
1073
01:04:25,539 --> 01:04:28,681
It isn't a rational process.
It's a very painful process.
1074
01:04:28,725 --> 01:04:32,564
It isn't rational, and I've got
to still live with that.
1075
01:04:33,174 --> 01:04:35,095
- He decided
that he needed a reason
1076
01:04:35,138 --> 01:04:37,670
that nobody would be looking
for his mother,
1077
01:04:37,713 --> 01:04:40,155
so he chose her best friend,
1078
01:04:40,199 --> 01:04:43,908
and he said that if he were
to dispose of her best friend,
1079
01:04:43,952 --> 01:04:47,179
then people would not be
inquiring as to where they are
1080
01:04:47,223 --> 01:04:50,016
because they have a tendency
to go away for the weekend,
1081
01:04:50,060 --> 01:04:51,936
so he had called Mrs. Hallett.
1082
01:04:51,980 --> 01:04:53,920
- He invited her to dinner,
said he was gonna take
1083
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:55,252
both women out to dinner.
1084
01:04:55,295 --> 01:04:57,260
- So she thought
that was just fine,
1085
01:04:57,303 --> 01:04:59,221
so she went over to
the house that night.
1086
01:05:03,018 --> 01:05:04,938
- She comes over.
1087
01:05:04,981 --> 01:05:07,163
Punches her once
in the abdomen.
1088
01:05:09,083 --> 01:05:11,090
And then he demonstrates,
'cause he's so big,
1089
01:05:11,134 --> 01:05:13,620
how he's able to get neck
in the crook of the arm.
1090
01:05:14,973 --> 01:05:17,290
And just to put on pressure
1091
01:05:17,730 --> 01:05:19,292
and where he hears
cracking in her neck.
1092
01:05:22,739 --> 01:05:25,792
- He told me that as he was
choking Mrs. Hallett,
1093
01:05:26,170 --> 01:05:28,240
he actually had an orgasm.
1094
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,086
- He spends the night
with her in bed
1095
01:05:35,131 --> 01:05:38,183
and attempts sex acts
with the mother's friend.
1096
01:05:38,228 --> 01:05:41,456
The mother is still over
in another part of the bedroom.
1097
01:05:47,303 --> 01:05:49,179
- Kemper had freaked out,
1098
01:05:49,222 --> 01:05:51,928
had loaded an arsenal of guns
into his car,
1099
01:05:51,971 --> 01:05:53,935
and then he got
the hell out of town.
1100
01:05:56,247 --> 01:05:59,084
- He was hoping
for his gigantic man face
1101
01:05:59,128 --> 01:06:01,090
to be all over the news,
1102
01:06:01,134 --> 01:06:04,013
and he's driving
for three days.
1103
01:06:04,057 --> 01:06:07,591
He covers 1,500 miles,
popping NoDoz, NoDoz.
1104
01:06:08,376 --> 01:06:10,296
Turning on the radio,
hoping to hear
1105
01:06:10,340 --> 01:06:12,522
there's this serial killer.
1106
01:06:13,656 --> 01:06:17,407
- But what happened is,
nobody came after him.
1107
01:06:17,451 --> 01:06:19,328
- He got as far
as Pueblo, Colorado.
1108
01:06:26,091 --> 01:06:29,102
- One morning, at about 5:00
in the morning,
1109
01:06:29,146 --> 01:06:32,635
Edmund Kemper calls the
Santa Cruz Police Department.
1110
01:06:32,679 --> 01:06:35,079
- And he talks to
the dispatcher
1111
01:06:35,122 --> 01:06:37,565
and says, "You know, I'm the
guy that you're looking for,"
1112
01:06:37,609 --> 01:06:39,355
and the dispatcher
hangs up on him.
1113
01:06:39,398 --> 01:06:41,449
- The person on the other end
of the line
1114
01:06:41,493 --> 01:06:43,455
didn't believe him and didn't
1115
01:06:43,498 --> 01:06:45,680
want to wake somebody up.
1116
01:06:45,724 --> 01:06:48,561
- So he calls back.
1117
01:06:48,604 --> 01:06:50,523
- Kemper tells them
that he killed his mother.
1118
01:06:50,567 --> 01:06:52,967
He is the Co-ed Killer.
1119
01:06:53,011 --> 01:06:55,324
He was the one responsible
for these crimes.
1120
01:07:02,173 --> 01:07:04,049
- He told the lieutenant
to get a hold of me
1121
01:07:04,092 --> 01:07:06,056
because I knew
exactly where he lived.
1122
01:07:06,099 --> 01:07:09,197
We had no idea.
Totally amazing.
1123
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:10,724
- He thought
they were on to him.
1124
01:07:11,950 --> 01:07:15,262
The fact is,
they had no idea who it was.
1125
01:07:15,306 --> 01:07:17,225
It was a shock to everybody.
1126
01:07:18,796 --> 01:07:20,279
- They were keeping him
on the phone
1127
01:07:21,415 --> 01:07:23,508
until the police came
1128
01:07:24,338 --> 01:07:26,169
and then put him under arrest.
1129
01:07:27,436 --> 01:07:29,572
- Why did you wind up
giving yourself up?
1130
01:07:29,617 --> 01:07:31,362
- Once my mother was dead,
there was almost
1131
01:07:31,406 --> 01:07:33,369
a cathartic process
at that point.
1132
01:07:33,412 --> 01:07:35,506
I got physically ill right then
1133
01:07:35,550 --> 01:07:38,255
when she died,
when I murdered her,
1134
01:07:38,299 --> 01:07:41,353
and once she was dead, there
was no way I could back out.
1135
01:07:41,397 --> 01:07:45,670
I had backed down from
giving up a thousand times.
1136
01:07:44,931 --> 01:07:47,636
- He turned himself in right
after he killed his mother
1137
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:49,686
because he then
solved his problem.
1138
01:07:49,729 --> 01:07:52,040
He didn't have to kill
symbolically anymore.
1139
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:53,308
He killed his mother.
1140
01:07:55,533 --> 01:07:58,544
- The root of his problems
goes back to mom.
1141
01:07:59,984 --> 01:08:02,644
Killing was
a displacement of anger.
1142
01:08:03,736 --> 01:08:06,921
Once she's out,
out of the picture, it's over.
1143
01:08:06,964 --> 01:08:10,499
The Santa Cruz police come out
and take him back.
1144
01:08:10,542 --> 01:08:12,723
- Kemper is being brought
back here to Santa Cruz
1145
01:08:12,768 --> 01:08:14,904
from Pueblo, Colorado,
by car,
1146
01:08:14,948 --> 01:08:18,308
a rather unusual method of
transportation in such cases,
1147
01:08:18,351 --> 01:08:20,970
a method chosen for security
purposes, authorities say.
1148
01:08:26,773 --> 01:08:28,997
- I spent a lot of time
with Ed.
1149
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:30,743
I actually sat
in the back seat
1150
01:08:30,786 --> 01:08:33,170
with him for 3 1/2 days.
1151
01:08:34,058 --> 01:08:37,500
And he never stopped talking.
1152
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,386
It got to the point
where I would think to myself,
1153
01:08:40,429 --> 01:08:42,480
"God, will you just shut up?
1154
01:08:41,911 --> 01:08:44,530
You know, it's getting
to be too much."
1155
01:08:46,799 --> 01:08:48,632
If we had to make a stop
to get some gas,
1156
01:08:48,675 --> 01:08:50,900
use the restroom
or whatever...
1157
01:08:50,943 --> 01:08:52,951
He was wearing
this leather jacket
1158
01:08:52,995 --> 01:08:55,525
with all of the frills
hanging off them.
1159
01:08:55,569 --> 01:08:57,444
He had his hands
chained to him,
1160
01:08:57,487 --> 01:08:59,190
and he would get out of the car
and just kind of
1161
01:08:59,233 --> 01:09:01,710
strut around,
so everybody could see him,
1162
01:09:00,935 --> 01:09:02,768
'cause everywhere we went,
it drew a crowd.
1163
01:09:05,605 --> 01:09:06,956
He loved the notoriety.
1164
01:09:09,922 --> 01:09:12,061
When we finally
got back to Santa Cruz...
1165
01:09:13,195 --> 01:09:15,780
he wanted to know
if there was a lot of press
1166
01:09:14,941 --> 01:09:16,643
in front of the building,
which there was,
1167
01:09:16,686 --> 01:09:19,086
obviously, but we had gone
around the back
1168
01:09:19,129 --> 01:09:21,179
and took him upstairs
and booked him.
1169
01:09:39,940 --> 01:09:43,737
- The interesting thing about
his whole booking process is,
1170
01:09:43,780 --> 01:09:47,183
there's a sheet, and it has
all of his information,
1171
01:09:47,226 --> 01:09:49,190
what he's charged with
and everything.
1172
01:09:50,979 --> 01:09:53,335
And when it gets down
to the section of who to notify
1173
01:09:53,379 --> 01:09:56,738
in case of emergency,
he turned to me, and he says,
1174
01:09:56,782 --> 01:09:59,050
"I don't have anybody left.
Can I put you down?"
1175
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,413
So that's why my name
is on his booking sheet.
1176
01:10:06,118 --> 01:10:08,010
- Kemper was arraigned
this afternoon
1177
01:10:08,440 --> 01:10:09,304
on charges of killing
six young women,
1178
01:10:09,348 --> 01:10:11,224
his mother,
and a friend of hers.
1179
01:10:11,268 --> 01:10:14,104
- By the time he got
to Santa Cruz,
1180
01:10:14,147 --> 01:10:18,030
the newspapers were
full of some of the details.
1181
01:10:18,074 --> 01:10:20,255
I--I was horrified.
1182
01:10:20,300 --> 01:10:24,580
This sleepy little town
along the coastline just
1183
01:10:23,921 --> 01:10:26,362
never really recovered.
1184
01:10:37,141 --> 01:10:39,933
- I'll tell you a little bit
about my interaction
1185
01:10:39,976 --> 01:10:43,960
with Eddie, with Ed Kemper.
1186
01:10:44,390 --> 01:10:46,303
One day I had
a really stiff neck.
1187
01:10:46,346 --> 01:10:49,007
I couldn't move my head
hardly at all.
1188
01:10:50,170 --> 01:10:52,017
He said,
"I know a lot about anatomy.
1189
01:10:52,061 --> 01:10:54,069
I can make your neck
feel better."
1190
01:10:54,985 --> 01:10:57,167
So I went around,
1191
01:10:57,210 --> 01:10:59,610
and he worked on my neck
for maybe, I don't know,
1192
01:10:59,654 --> 01:11:04,016
five minutes,
and, you know, it worked.
1193
01:11:07,550 --> 01:11:11,084
Thinking about it,
here's this huge man
1194
01:11:11,129 --> 01:11:15,186
who could've probably
killed me with one hand,
1195
01:11:15,230 --> 01:11:20,247
and I never, ever felt
unsafe in his presence.
1196
01:11:20,290 --> 01:11:23,039
I felt that if somebody
had've attacked me,
1197
01:11:23,084 --> 01:11:25,090
he would've come to my aid.
1198
01:11:26,182 --> 01:11:28,188
I spent a lot of time
with him.
1199
01:11:28,231 --> 01:11:29,628
We were friendly.
1200
01:11:31,198 --> 01:11:34,950
- The ability of Ed Kemper
to be able to
1201
01:11:34,994 --> 01:11:37,481
be very charming
was really remarkable.
1202
01:11:37,524 --> 01:11:41,364
That's how clever
or manipulative he is.
1203
01:11:41,408 --> 01:11:45,029
- He was a model prisoner,
and he was a nice guy.
1204
01:11:45,072 --> 01:11:47,559
He wasn't crazy.
He wasn't, uh,
1205
01:11:47,603 --> 01:11:50,002
he wasn't
particularly violent.
1206
01:11:50,047 --> 01:11:53,363
He would joke with the jailers.
The jailers liked him.
1207
01:11:55,762 --> 01:11:59,252
- He was this big,
overgrown kid
1208
01:11:59,296 --> 01:12:03,398
that was very friendly,
very cooperative,
1209
01:12:03,441 --> 01:12:05,231
loved the police...
1210
01:12:06,277 --> 01:12:10,290
and would tell you anything
you wanted to know.
1211
01:12:16,399 --> 01:12:18,364
- He took us to these
various places
1212
01:12:18,407 --> 01:12:20,676
throughout the mountains
in Santa Cruz County.
1213
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:22,681
- Where he showed them
all the places
1214
01:12:22,725 --> 01:12:24,471
he dropped off body parts.
1215
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:34,507
- We were missing
some body parts,
1216
01:12:34,550 --> 01:12:36,381
and those were important
for the families,
1217
01:12:36,425 --> 01:12:38,650
so what we would do is, we
would drive him
1218
01:12:38,695 --> 01:12:39,959
to those locations,
and he would
1219
01:12:40,003 --> 01:12:41,618
point it out to us
1220
01:12:41,661 --> 01:12:44,367
just very matter-of-factly.
1221
01:12:44,411 --> 01:12:46,910
There's so-and-so.
There's so-and-so.
1222
01:12:48,380 --> 01:12:52,482
One of his victims, he had
actually skinned the skull
1223
01:12:52,525 --> 01:12:54,794
and put it underground.
1224
01:12:56,933 --> 01:13:00,360
- The day they dug up
Cindy Schall's head
1225
01:12:59,900 --> 01:13:02,429
was a day I'll never forget.
1226
01:13:02,472 --> 01:13:05,702
The thing I remember
about it is them lifting this
1227
01:13:05,745 --> 01:13:09,279
rotted head
up out of the ground
1228
01:13:09,323 --> 01:13:10,938
and the reality of it
all of a sudden
1229
01:13:10,982 --> 01:13:13,425
became all too true,
but what the worst part was,
1230
01:13:13,469 --> 01:13:14,776
was the smell.
1231
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:19,577
The smell just stuck with me.
1232
01:13:37,247 --> 01:13:40,039
- And so when he finally had
to go to trial,
1233
01:13:40,083 --> 01:13:42,220
his defense will be
the insanity defense.
1234
01:13:42,264 --> 01:13:45,493
- When a person admits
to everything they've done
1235
01:13:45,537 --> 01:13:47,630
to everybody who'll listen,
1236
01:13:47,675 --> 01:13:51,470
you know,
the only possible defense
1237
01:13:51,513 --> 01:13:55,310
we had was not guilty
by reason of insanity.
1238
01:13:55,353 --> 01:13:58,669
- What a lawyer hopes for
in a case like Kemper
1239
01:13:58,714 --> 01:14:00,589
is that the jury
will look at this and say,
1240
01:14:00,633 --> 01:14:04,297
"This is so ridiculous.
This is just so bizarre.
1241
01:14:04,341 --> 01:14:07,177
He has to be completely
out of his mind."
1242
01:14:07,220 --> 01:14:09,533
It has to be to such an extent
1243
01:14:09,576 --> 01:14:11,628
that you didn't know
the nature and quality
1244
01:14:11,672 --> 01:14:13,460
of your acts, you didn't know
what you were doing.
1245
01:14:13,503 --> 01:14:15,249
Well, that wouldn't apply
in Kemper's case.
1246
01:14:15,293 --> 01:14:17,168
He knew exactly
what he was doing.
1247
01:14:17,212 --> 01:14:20,091
- He felt the need to take
the stand
1248
01:14:20,135 --> 01:14:23,495
to show everyone
how crazy he really was.
1249
01:14:23,538 --> 01:14:25,458
He went through
all the graphics
1250
01:14:25,502 --> 01:14:27,247
of how he did the killings.
1251
01:14:28,294 --> 01:14:30,475
- And when
he was testifying...
1252
01:14:32,134 --> 01:14:34,795
you found yourself
1253
01:14:35,190 --> 01:14:37,107
wrapped up in his words.
1254
01:14:37,150 --> 01:14:39,769
He wanted you
to feel sorry for him,
1255
01:14:39,930 --> 01:14:43,030
and he was describing what he
had done to these young girls.
1256
01:14:43,470 --> 01:14:46,226
I looked over my shoulder,
and I saw the father
1257
01:14:46,269 --> 01:14:49,240
of one of the victims,
1258
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:52,465
and the look on his face
1259
01:14:52,509 --> 01:14:54,430
was so affecting
1260
01:14:54,473 --> 01:14:56,611
that I started crying in court,
1261
01:14:56,654 --> 01:14:59,446
and I couldn't stop crying.
1262
01:15:02,500 --> 01:15:05,206
He was convicted
and sentenced to life.
1263
01:15:19,647 --> 01:15:21,262
- The things I learned
from Kemper
1264
01:15:21,305 --> 01:15:23,007
we apply to other cases.
1265
01:15:23,050 --> 01:15:25,624
He taught us how we should
link these cases together,
1266
01:15:25,667 --> 01:15:27,544
how to classify
different crimes,
1267
01:15:27,588 --> 01:15:29,638
and how to profile
for a serial killer.
1268
01:15:29,681 --> 01:15:31,689
They bring him in,
and we stand up to greet him,
1269
01:15:31,733 --> 01:15:34,612
and my goodness,
the guy is--he's mammoth.
1270
01:15:34,657 --> 01:15:36,533
He just towers over us.
1271
01:15:36,577 --> 01:15:38,408
Before I even start
talking to him, I told him,
1272
01:15:38,451 --> 01:15:41,320
"You're a big case back
at the FBI academy.
1273
01:15:41,750 --> 01:15:43,390
"Everyone wants to learn
from you.
1274
01:15:42,902 --> 01:15:46,568
We want to take your knowledge
and apply it to ongoing cases."
1275
01:15:47,745 --> 01:15:50,102
So I made him feel like
he is my professor.
1276
01:15:50,146 --> 01:15:51,366
Teach me.
1277
01:15:54,595 --> 01:15:57,911
- Bob Ressler and John Douglas
were top drawer, absolutely.
1278
01:15:57,954 --> 01:16:00,093
They were very dedicated.
1279
01:16:00,137 --> 01:16:04,019
They were excellent in terms
of getting information.
1280
01:16:04,063 --> 01:16:05,982
They were expert interviewers.
1281
01:16:12,530 --> 01:16:14,186
- I want to know why, Ed.
I want to know what
1282
01:16:14,229 --> 01:16:17,545
transformed you into
participating and precipitating
1283
01:16:17,588 --> 01:16:19,508
these particular crimes.
1284
01:16:21,646 --> 01:16:24,525
- Ed Kemper was very helpful
because he was so articulate,
1285
01:16:24,569 --> 01:16:27,755
and he really gave
important information
1286
01:16:27,798 --> 01:16:32,073
that we were able to use
for the basis for profiling.
1287
01:16:32,946 --> 01:16:35,216
- He's an insightful guy.
He knows the criminal mind,
1288
01:16:35,260 --> 01:16:37,530
obviously, on some level
1289
01:16:36,916 --> 01:16:38,924
because he knows
himself awfully well.
1290
01:17:00,346 --> 01:17:02,310
- These guys, they go off
in a trance like that,
1291
01:17:02,354 --> 01:17:05,146
and then they're back there,
and they start
1292
01:17:05,189 --> 01:17:08,600
providing specifics that--
1293
01:17:08,310 --> 01:17:10,730
I mean, I can't remember
what things I did yesterday,
1294
01:17:10,774 --> 01:17:14,221
and they're remembering all
these specifics of the crimes
1295
01:17:14,265 --> 01:17:18,660
and the colors of the victim's
clothing and their hair
1296
01:17:17,930 --> 01:17:19,675
and maybe a pendant
they were wearing,
1297
01:17:19,718 --> 01:17:22,248
so that was one of the things
that happened
1298
01:17:22,292 --> 01:17:24,300
during the interview
with Kemper.
1299
01:17:24,344 --> 01:17:26,916
That's the whole thing when you
do a profiling and analysis.
1300
01:17:26,961 --> 01:17:30,014
You can't think like me.
I got to think like them.
1301
01:17:30,976 --> 01:17:32,372
- You want to get
the information,
1302
01:17:32,415 --> 01:17:34,030
so that maybe
you can prevent
1303
01:17:34,074 --> 01:17:35,774
somebody from getting hurt
in the future.
1304
01:17:50,609 --> 01:17:53,007
- After the first interviews,
1305
01:17:53,052 --> 01:17:54,492
we realized that
if we're going to have
1306
01:17:54,536 --> 01:17:57,939
a good mythological handle
on this,
1307
01:17:57,983 --> 01:18:01,996
we had to have
a survey questionnaire
1308
01:18:02,039 --> 01:18:04,003
that they all ask
the same questions
1309
01:18:04,046 --> 01:18:06,097
to other killers.
1310
01:18:06,140 --> 01:18:10,112
We came up with a 57-page
color-coded survey,
1311
01:18:10,155 --> 01:18:13,297
and we had 36 killers
in the study.
1312
01:18:13,340 --> 01:18:15,216
- And we came up with very,
very good predictors.
1313
01:18:15,259 --> 01:18:17,529
It's a thing known
as the homicidal triangle.
1314
01:18:18,707 --> 01:18:20,321
That is bed-wetting
1315
01:18:20,364 --> 01:18:21,586
into the teens,
1316
01:18:21,630 --> 01:18:22,634
fire setting,
1317
01:18:22,678 --> 01:18:24,790
but the big one
1318
01:18:23,942 --> 01:18:26,430
is animal cruelty.
1319
01:18:26,473 --> 01:18:29,440
I've talked to SPCAs
about that,
1320
01:18:29,483 --> 01:18:32,144
and now the FBI
even has that today.
1321
01:18:32,188 --> 01:18:33,977
Animal cruelty,
they track that,
1322
01:18:34,021 --> 01:18:35,636
where we never tracked
that before,
1323
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:38,733
because we know that's
a predictor of future violence.
1324
01:18:38,777 --> 01:18:41,481
- The FBI back in
the late 1970s,
1325
01:18:41,524 --> 01:18:43,707
including John Douglas
and Robert Ressler,
1326
01:18:43,750 --> 01:18:45,976
made major contributions
1327
01:18:46,019 --> 01:18:49,729
in applying the knowledge
base of sexual murder,
1328
01:18:49,772 --> 01:18:52,215
particularly to investigations.
1329
01:18:55,245 --> 01:18:58,955
- We came up with
the term serial murderer.
1330
01:18:58,998 --> 01:19:00,961
A serial murderer
is three or more people
1331
01:19:01,004 --> 01:19:02,227
with a cooling off period
1332
01:19:02,271 --> 01:19:03,928
in between
each of the killings.
1333
01:19:04,844 --> 01:19:07,112
A mass murderer
is someone who kills
1334
01:19:07,156 --> 01:19:09,905
four or more people
in one event.
1335
01:19:09,948 --> 01:19:11,825
A spree murderer,
1336
01:19:11,868 --> 01:19:14,200
it's a form
of a serial killer,
1337
01:19:13,820 --> 01:19:15,665
but there is
no cooling off period.
1338
01:19:15,708 --> 01:19:19,810
- Today you can't find a person
in the United States
1339
01:19:19,854 --> 01:19:22,122
who doesn't know
what a serial killer is.
1340
01:19:22,165 --> 01:19:25,787
You hear it all the time,
and you really have to credit
1341
01:19:25,830 --> 01:19:29,147
John Douglas and Ressler
for popularizing that
1342
01:19:29,190 --> 01:19:31,153
and making it part
of the consciousness
1343
01:19:31,196 --> 01:19:33,989
in the culture
of the United States.
1344
01:19:34,032 --> 01:19:35,952
- Then we came up
with descriptions
1345
01:19:35,996 --> 01:19:38,876
regarding the different types
of offenders
1346
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:41,014
when we classify a case,
1347
01:19:41,057 --> 01:19:42,715
and we came up
with major categories
1348
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:45,945
of criminal enterprise,
group cause,
1349
01:19:45,988 --> 01:19:49,770
sexual homicide,
and personal cause.
1350
01:19:50,210 --> 01:19:51,850
When we look at a case,
we try to put them
1351
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:53,186
in one of these
four categories.
1352
01:19:54,409 --> 01:19:57,113
Then as far as describing
the crime scenes,
1353
01:19:57,157 --> 01:19:58,990
when we look at a case
like Kemper,
1354
01:19:59,033 --> 01:20:01,739
Kemper, it's obvious
it's very, very organized.
1355
01:20:01,782 --> 01:20:03,134
There's planning involved.
1356
01:20:04,420 --> 01:20:06,930
- The profiling cases
would come in,
1357
01:20:06,407 --> 01:20:09,941
and they would say,
"Is this like Kemper?"
1358
01:20:09,984 --> 01:20:12,036
They would be able
to actually--is he organized?
1359
01:20:12,079 --> 01:20:14,478
Does he plan? Is there
something new or different?
1360
01:20:14,522 --> 01:20:18,274
So they bounced off of these
new cases,
1361
01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:21,983
unsolved cases,
and were able to say,
1362
01:20:22,026 --> 01:20:24,034
"Why don't you look
for a suspect
1363
01:20:24,078 --> 01:20:27,044
that has
A, B, C, D, these factors."
1364
01:20:28,134 --> 01:20:30,403
- Look, for example,
at the case of Ted Bundy.
1365
01:20:30,447 --> 01:20:33,545
The connection between somebody
like Kemper and Ted Bundy
1366
01:20:33,590 --> 01:20:36,862
is that the reason
they're killing is sexual.
1367
01:20:36,905 --> 01:20:39,914
It's an abnormal
sexual arousal pattern.
1368
01:20:40,962 --> 01:20:43,186
- I found it with Kemper,
and I found it with the likes
1369
01:20:43,231 --> 01:20:45,281
of Dennis Rader,
the BTK Strangler,
1370
01:20:45,550 --> 01:20:48,060
Jeffrey Dahmer,
David Berkowitz,
1371
01:20:47,420 --> 01:20:50,082
the Son of Sam.
There was no empathy.
1372
01:20:50,125 --> 01:20:54,008
There was never any remorse
for the crimes at all.
1373
01:20:54,051 --> 01:20:56,014
The only time we touched
on the mother.
1374
01:20:56,057 --> 01:20:57,530
It seemed to be always
a mother thing
1375
01:20:57,970 --> 01:20:59,600
with these guys,
always a mother thing.
1376
01:21:02,515 --> 01:21:06,224
- Your grandmother and her
daughter-in-law, your mother,
1377
01:21:06,267 --> 01:21:09,671
were two women very important
in your life,
1378
01:21:09,715 --> 01:21:11,678
and you killed them both.
1379
01:21:11,722 --> 01:21:14,689
Could you say
what they were like
1380
01:21:14,733 --> 01:21:18,440
that led them to the same fate?
1381
01:21:18,483 --> 01:21:20,796
- The same thing that kept them
from ever being friends.
1382
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,010
They were both aggressive,
1383
01:21:23,414 --> 01:21:24,810
um,
1384
01:21:24,855 --> 01:21:26,425
matriarchal women.
1385
01:21:26,469 --> 01:21:28,127
They'd been the daughters
1386
01:21:28,170 --> 01:21:29,698
of strong, matriarchal women.
1387
01:21:33,799 --> 01:21:36,198
- They love the mother.
They want the mother's love.
1388
01:21:36,242 --> 01:21:39,122
But at the same time, you know,
they hate the mother.
1389
01:21:39,166 --> 01:21:41,600
They hate her, so then
when you get them to talk,
1390
01:21:41,770 --> 01:21:43,180
you get them to talk,
and you reach that point
1391
01:21:43,223 --> 01:21:44,880
about mothers,
1392
01:21:44,924 --> 01:21:47,803
and you got them back
at that crime.
1393
01:21:47,848 --> 01:21:50,117
That's when you'll see them,
you know, breaking down.
1394
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:51,906
Some of the most
hardened criminals
1395
01:21:51,950 --> 01:21:54,697
I've talked to,
it happened to them.
1396
01:21:56,530 --> 01:22:00,990
Gary Heidnik in Philadelphia,
who kept women in a pit
1397
01:22:00,413 --> 01:22:02,595
and I interviewed him
with another agent,
1398
01:22:02,638 --> 01:22:05,740
and when I got to the mother,
you know,
1399
01:22:06,170 --> 01:22:08,616
he just ripped off the mic
and just, you know--you know,
1400
01:22:08,660 --> 01:22:10,884
he just broke down.
He loved the mother,
1401
01:22:10,928 --> 01:22:13,763
but he hated her
at the same time
1402
01:22:13,807 --> 01:22:17,428
and projected his problems
on his mother, like Kemper.
1403
01:22:18,477 --> 01:22:21,260
- There's no question
that he hated his mother,
1404
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:23,406
but that's not why
he went out killing women.
1405
01:22:24,016 --> 01:22:26,417
Thousands of people have
horrible relationships
1406
01:22:26,460 --> 01:22:27,813
with their mothers.
1407
01:22:27,857 --> 01:22:29,995
Thousands and thousands
of people
1408
01:22:30,038 --> 01:22:34,926
grow up in horrific conditions
where one parent or another
1409
01:22:34,969 --> 01:22:38,415
not only belittles
or humiliates the person
1410
01:22:38,459 --> 01:22:41,557
but abuses the person
and burns the person,
1411
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:43,564
but they're not going around
killing people
1412
01:22:43,607 --> 01:22:45,876
because they're symbolically
killing their mother.
1413
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:47,579
I just don't believe that.
1414
01:22:47,622 --> 01:22:50,064
If Kemper explains
why he did what he did,
1415
01:22:50,107 --> 01:22:51,896
you should take it
at face value.
1416
01:22:51,940 --> 01:22:55,140
Murderers, in general,
lie all the time.
1417
01:22:54,428 --> 01:22:56,915
It was his relationship
with his mother that did this.
1418
01:22:56,959 --> 01:23:00,580
He was abused by this person.
It may just not be true.
1419
01:23:07,144 --> 01:23:08,715
- Six young women dead.
1420
01:23:08,758 --> 01:23:10,679
There's a lot that leads
into that happening,
1421
01:23:10,723 --> 01:23:12,511
but that is what happened.
1422
01:23:12,555 --> 01:23:14,474
They represented
not what my mother was
1423
01:23:14,518 --> 01:23:16,917
but what she liked,
what she coveted,
1424
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:20,102
what was important to her,
and I was destroying it.
1425
01:23:20,145 --> 01:23:22,590
- People think
he's a manipulator
1426
01:23:22,633 --> 01:23:24,204
and a psychopath.
1427
01:23:24,247 --> 01:23:25,775
That's true.
1428
01:23:25,980 --> 01:23:27,782
As far as, like,
the mother part,
1429
01:23:28,060 --> 01:23:29,657
where they don't believe that,
I disagree with them.
1430
01:23:29,701 --> 01:23:31,184
The mother had a major impact.
1431
01:23:31,228 --> 01:23:33,279
The reason he decided now
was the time
1432
01:23:33,323 --> 01:23:36,330
to kill them
because of the mother.
1433
01:23:36,770 --> 01:23:38,689
I don't forgive Kemper,
but mom is the influence.
1434
01:23:38,733 --> 01:23:40,086
If mom wasn't there,
1435
01:23:40,129 --> 01:23:43,130
he wouldn't
have been a serial killer.
1436
01:23:43,570 --> 01:23:45,058
- I was suicidal,
1437
01:23:45,103 --> 01:23:49,117
uh, very disturbed,
grasping out at someone.
1438
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:51,037
I had abducted them,
and I wasn't going to
1439
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,500
let them out of the car
because I was tired
1440
01:23:52,913 --> 01:23:54,744
of people walking away from me.
1441
01:23:54,788 --> 01:23:57,188
- Ed Kemper's murder
of his mother
1442
01:23:57,232 --> 01:23:59,720
is done at the end
of his killing career.
1443
01:23:59,763 --> 01:24:03,410
It's important to look at
what he does with his victims,
1444
01:24:02,905 --> 01:24:04,213
the co-ed victims.
1445
01:24:05,696 --> 01:24:07,311
- And where it might
not be realistic
1446
01:24:07,355 --> 01:24:10,975
to someone who has decided
I'm just incarnate evil,
1447
01:24:11,019 --> 01:24:13,637
there's not much else I can say
other than I did surrender.
1448
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:15,338
I did make it stop.
1449
01:24:15,382 --> 01:24:17,171
I didn't kill my mother
in a rage.
1450
01:24:17,215 --> 01:24:20,130
I didn't attack her
out of some argument.
1451
01:24:20,570 --> 01:24:21,970
I went out of my way
to find her and to kill her,
1452
01:24:22,013 --> 01:24:25,767
to make sure that
whatever cover I had was blown.
1453
01:24:25,910 --> 01:24:27,773
There was no way I could
explain my way out of it.
1454
01:24:27,970 --> 01:24:29,999
I started pursuing ways
out of what I was doing
1455
01:24:30,042 --> 01:24:32,443
because it was getting
totally out of hand.
1456
01:24:32,486 --> 01:24:34,187
- He said,
"I had schoolteachers
1457
01:24:34,230 --> 01:24:36,150
"and counselors talking
to me, but he never
1458
01:24:36,194 --> 01:24:38,600
"really talked to me
about my feelings
1459
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:39,950
"and what was going
through my mind.
1460
01:24:40,390 --> 01:24:41,342
Had they done that," he said,
1461
01:24:41,386 --> 01:24:43,524
"I would've talked to them
about this."
1462
01:24:43,568 --> 01:24:45,401
If a counselor talked
to him, he may
1463
01:24:45,444 --> 01:24:47,930
or she may get
something out of him.
1464
01:24:47,974 --> 01:24:51,289
- If you'd never given in
to the impulse to murder--
1465
01:24:51,333 --> 01:24:52,948
- Where might I be?
1466
01:24:52,992 --> 01:24:55,436
If my parole
had been successful...
1467
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:57,049
Um,
1468
01:24:57,093 --> 01:24:59,493
I believe I'd be married
and have children.
1469
01:24:59,537 --> 01:25:02,328
I'd be heading toward
my first grandchildren.
1470
01:25:03,332 --> 01:25:05,296
- This story just never
goes away,
1471
01:25:05,339 --> 01:25:07,520
and people are fascinated
by it,
1472
01:25:07,564 --> 01:25:10,560
how horrid it all was.
1473
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:13,017
- When I get back to the motel
after doing his interview,
1474
01:25:13,062 --> 01:25:15,331
I had problems. I had problems
1475
01:25:15,374 --> 01:25:18,167
that would then
begin to carry over
1476
01:25:18,210 --> 01:25:20,915
where I had flashbacks
of those crime scenes.
1477
01:25:23,576 --> 01:25:25,541
- I've been involved in
I couldn't tell you
1478
01:25:25,584 --> 01:25:28,760
how many investigations
where people have died,
1479
01:25:27,939 --> 01:25:31,997
and this, to me,
has no sense whatsoever.
1480
01:25:32,041 --> 01:25:34,572
I still have issues
that come up occasionally.
1481
01:25:37,975 --> 01:25:41,290
- It really, really bothers me.
It does have an effect on me.
1482
01:25:41,334 --> 01:25:44,694
- If I could change, um,
1483
01:25:44,737 --> 01:25:46,657
things in my life,
1484
01:25:46,701 --> 01:25:51,020
I would definitely not have
1485
01:25:51,064 --> 01:25:54,206
participated
in these mass murders.
1486
01:25:54,249 --> 01:25:56,474
I had a wife
and two little kids.
1487
01:25:56,517 --> 01:25:58,524
I worked 13 months
without a day off.
1488
01:25:58,568 --> 01:26:03,237
Within five years after
these trials were completed,
1489
01:26:03,281 --> 01:26:05,156
the district attorney
was divorced.
1490
01:26:05,199 --> 01:26:06,464
I was divorced.
1491
01:26:06,508 --> 01:26:07,687
Several of the police officers
1492
01:26:07,730 --> 01:26:09,214
involved were divorced.
1493
01:26:09,258 --> 01:26:10,785
It took a horrible toll
1494
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:12,312
on us individually
1495
01:26:12,356 --> 01:26:13,796
and on our families.
1496
01:26:14,190 --> 01:26:17,330
You know, it was difficult,
a difficult time,
1497
01:26:17,374 --> 01:26:19,642
and it's always a part of you.
1498
01:26:21,561 --> 01:26:23,656
- This was such a hideous evil
1499
01:26:23,699 --> 01:26:26,143
that Kemper perpetrated
on these people.
1500
01:26:26,187 --> 01:26:28,586
The lesson of Edmund Kemper
is, the human animal
1501
01:26:28,629 --> 01:26:31,116
is capable
of just about everything,
1502
01:26:31,159 --> 01:26:33,472
and we can't be surprised
by what happens.
1503
01:26:33,517 --> 01:26:36,527
I'm sorry it happened.
It was horrible what happened.
1504
01:26:36,570 --> 01:26:39,364
I think of the lives
that were not lived
1505
01:26:39,407 --> 01:26:43,770
that--who knows what these
victims would've turned into,
1506
01:26:43,940 --> 01:26:46,300
and I think that's
the tragedy of it all.
1507
01:26:47,434 --> 01:26:49,790
- If there's somebody out there
that is watching this
1508
01:26:50,140 --> 01:26:53,194
and hasn't done that,
hasn't killed people
1509
01:26:53,237 --> 01:26:56,685
and wants to and rages inside
and struggles for that feeling
1510
01:26:56,728 --> 01:26:59,608
or is so sure they have it
under control,
1511
01:26:59,651 --> 01:27:01,744
they need to talk
to somebody about it.
1512
01:27:01,788 --> 01:27:04,930
Trust somebody enough
to sit down
1513
01:27:04,974 --> 01:27:07,417
and talk about something
that isn't a crime.
1514
01:27:07,461 --> 01:27:10,471
Thinking that way
isn't a crime.
1515
01:27:10,514 --> 01:27:13,070
Doing it isn't just a crime.
1516
01:27:13,510 --> 01:27:16,580
It's a horrible thing
that doesn't know when to quit.
1517
01:27:16,623 --> 01:27:19,300
It can't be stopped easily.
119181
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