All language subtitles for in.defense.of.s01e04.ted.bundy.hdtv.x264-w4f

- Of all the
world's serial killers,

perhaps the most chilling
is the charismatic,

smooth-talking law
school-educated Ted Bundy.

- I didn't know it when I met
Ted Bundy,

but the Devil was about to enter
my life

that would haunt me
for 15 years.

- The 33-year-old Utah law
student is a suspect

in more than 30 murder-rape
cases across the country.

- The authorities would say he
would kill

one or two people a month,
but based on what Ted told me,

there were more no one
even knew about.

There's been a lot written
about Ted.

but I think I knew him better
than anyone.

- Police have discovered
a pattern of rape-murders

which coincide with
Ted Bundy's movements

over the past five years.

- Ted certainly had a grand idea
of himself.

He thought he could fool
everybody.

- Bundy insists he's innocent.

- Ted would try to minimize
the charges against him.

He used to call it
"this stupid little matter."

"Ted, there's 10 cops outside.

It's not a stupid, little
matter."

Representing Ted Bundy

was an ultimate test
of my belief system.

There are times when I thought

maybe I should just do away
with him,

but instead I fought
to save his life.

[dramatic music]

♪ ♪

- From January to July in 1974,

while Watergate, Richard Nixon,

and the Patty Hearst kidnapping
consumed the nation,

a wave of fear swept
across Seattle.

Someone was
abducting young women...

and brutally murdering them.

- Back in '73 and 74, over
a one and a half year period,

9 or 10 women in the Northwest
disappeared,

all hauntingly similar
in appearance--

hair parted in the middle,
down to below their shoulders.

It was something that rightfully
made women in Seattle terrified.

I mean, women were literally
cutting their hair.

And then the Sammamish Park
incident

put Seattle into a hysteria.

- 19-year-old Denise Naslund
and 23-year-old Janice Ott

disappeared on a warm summer
at Lake Sammamish.

- The women were approached
by a stranger

who was somewhat well-dressed,
khaki shorts,

you know, Top-Siders on,
real preppy stuff.

And he had a cast on his arm,

so he told them,
according to the witnesses,

that he had a little sailboat
he needed help loading

on the top of his Bug.

♪ ♪

Both of them believed him
and got in the car.

♪ ♪

And then disappeared.

- Police launched
a massive search of the park.

Though there was no sign
of the women,

several witnesses told of
a smooth-talking,

good-looking young man
named Ted.

It was determined that
the person responsible

for these murders
and disappearances

was someone named Ted,

so they became known as
the "Ted Murders."

- I was a homicide detective
for a week

when I was assigned
the disappearances

of Janice Ott
and Denise Naslund.

- The skeletal remains

were found by hunters in
an open grave east of Seattle.

- The remains of three,
maybe four females

were spread across the hillside.

That's how things really got
started for us.

- Four more young women
were found on Taylor Mountain,

all of them strangled
or bludgeoned

by this brutal killer.

- The word "serial killer"
didn't start till the mid '80s.

No one had ever investigated
a case like this.

We have witnesses that observed
our suspect "Ted."

I think one of these days
we'll find him.

[track rattles]

increased in Washington

in the last five months.
- Seattle's Ted is described

as 5'8" to 5'10"...

- There's a man walking
up and down our street.

- If this guy Ted tries
anything in front of me...

-Suspected of killing
at least nine women

in the Seattle area.

- I think it's Ted.
- All you could hear in Seattle

was Ted, Ted, Ted.

You know, if your name was Ted

and you drove a Volkswagen Bug
in Seattle,

you were on the list.

At the time, I was, you know,
young. I was 29 years old.

I was only three years
out of law school.

I was Chief Trial Attorney
at Public Defender's Office,

so I knew
that the serial murderer,

if he was captured,
would end up in our office

as a death penalty case,

so it occurred to me
that I may end up

helping this person,
but I didn't really want to

because of a major event
in my past.

♪ ♪

I met my girlfriend, Deborah,
the summer

between first and second year
of law school.

This is always hard
to talk about.

Um...and it was 1970.

And she was living in Berkeley
and going to graduate school,

and I was living
in Washington, D.C.,

but we were still pretty much
an exclusive couple.

She was very beautiful,
very smart,

and very progressive, 'cause she
was very anti-death penalty.

She was leading the anti-death
penalty movement in California,

and I was raised that
the death penalty

never made any sense to me
even in high school.

"Thou shalt not kill, and if
you kill, we'll kill you"?

You know, that never made
much sense to me.

I think it was a February night
in 1970

that I got a phone call.

Deborah had been found murdered,

and, uh, it was, uh, tough,
tough time.

She was strangled with a cord.
It's never been solved.

And I wanted to tear apart
body part by body part

whoever had killed her,

so I became a firm believer
in the death penalty,

at least for the person
that killed Deborah.

That changed.
I had this very vivid dream

where Debbie came to me
in the dream and said,

"Don't honor me by believing in
something I never believed in."

So that was like a message to me

to fight against the death
penalty whenever I could.

Deborah's murder gave me
a very unique perspective

from a defense lawyer's
standpoint,

particularly a defense lawyer

who ends up representing
Ted Bundy.

♪ ♪

So when it all
hit the newspapers

that all these women
were disappearing,

and they put their pictures
all together,

you know, I really felt awful

'cause of the experience
that I'd had with Deborah,

who looked just like
the victims.

- Police released a composite
drawing and description of Ted,

and within weeks,
more than 3,000 names

have been compiled
into a list of suspects.

- People were flooding
the phone lines.

We had several people snitch
off Ted Bundy,

but there was
no physical evidence

that could link Ted Bundy
to the Seattle cases.

There were
some circumstantial stuff,

but the prosecutor just
wouldn't charge

without physical evidence.

- All of a sudden,
the disappearances

in the Washington State area
just stopped.

The authorities thought
the perpetrator was either dead,

incarcerated, or had moved
to a different state.

Well, it turns out
that's exactly what happened.

Ted had moved from Washington
to Utah.

to go to law school.

♪ ♪

Then the disappearances
started happening in Utah.

So now Utah is
in a state of hysteria

the way Seattle was
when Ted was living in Seattle.

- The authorities from Utah
called us.

They had read about
the disappearances

in the Seattle region.

We told them about Ted Bundy,

and then they checked
and found out that he was there.

The problem was they didn't
have any evidence to connect him

to those murders either.

So we weren't able to arrest him
for those crimes,

and he was free to go anywhere.

- While he was in Utah, he would
make side trips to Colorado.

There were three women,
I believe, total,

but most likely, a lot more.

In the beginning
of Ted's adventure

of disgusting behavior, there
was a certain pattern to it

where he would pretend
to need help,

and he would charm a lot
of these women,

but later on, he became
increasingly violent.

I think it began with
the DaRonch kidnapping in Utah.

Carol DaRonch was at the largest
shopping mall in Salt Lake City,

and this person came up
claiming to be a police officer,

identifying himself
as Officer Rosebud

and said, "Somebody's
tampering with your car.

Come with me." She ends up
getting into a Volkswagen Bug

that's all beat up, and then
he tries to handcuff her

and hit her with a crowbar.

So Carol flew out
of the Volkswagen, into the lap

of the people who were
driving the car next to Ted.

She miraculously escapes.

About a year after
her attempted kidnapping,

this police officer just
happened to drive down

this cul-de-sac in Utah
and saw this Volkswagen Bug

at 3:00 in the morning,
idling in front of a house.

[siren wails]
And he knew that the adults

in that house were gone and they
had left the children there,

which were younger women.

[siren wailing]
And so he chased the Bug

until Ted pulled over.

And then he got out,
and classic Ted,

and said, "Well, I'm just
kind of lost."

It's 3:00 in the morning.

They eventually searched
the car and find ice picks,

pantyhose with eye holes
cut in them,

handcuffs, bunch of different
license plates

for different states,

you know, a lot of things that
are very difficult to explain.

And that's how they caught Ted.

In October of '75,

Ted Bundy was identified
in a police lineup

after being arrested
in kidnapping charges

in Salt Lake City.

- Once he was arrested in Utah,

the newspapers
in Washington State

and all across the country
went crazy.

It was a frenzy everywhere.

Then he was released on bail
in Utah,

which I thought
was a very low bail.

I think it was $150,000,

of which you only
have to put up 10%.

But I think the reason for that

was they wanted to get more
evidence against him

in Washington.

The moment he was
released on bail,

Ted went back to Seattle,
and the Washington authorities

followed him around to hopefully
build a case.

♪ ♪

- We were worried
when he was in Seattle

that he would do it again.

This guy is totally consumed
with murder 24 hours a day.

That is when the Ted task force
went into full operation

with five or six detectives
steadfastly following him around

even to the point of letting him
know that we were there.

He wasn't officially charged
with anything

in Washington State.

He was being heavily
investigated,

and that's why he had
a right to counsel

because in Washington
and most other places,

you have a right to counsel
before you're charged.

Ted had talked to other lawyers
and law students

and came up with name.

I was a brand-new lawyer

in King County Superior Court
in Seattle,

and I thought John Henry Browne
was the best lawyer

I had ever seen.

He had the voice,
he had the stature,

he had the theater, he had
every aspect you need

to be a consummate trial lawyer

and defender, you know,
of the damned, which he is.

Ted knew who John was,
and that's the lawyer he wanted.

He picked the best.

- I first met Ted in the lobby
at the Public Defender's Office.

Ted came in the back door
from the alley.

He was, you know, jovial
and trying to be charismatic.

He didn't appear to be scared.

I didn't know it at the time,
but evil just entered my life.

Pure evil.

He was purging himself.

He sounded more crazy
than I'd ever heard him before.

I got sick to my stomach.

I felt like I don't want
to be here.

I'm not sure I even want to be
a defense lawyer.

♪ ♪

- I first met Ted in the lobby
of the Public Defender's Office.

Ted came in the back door
from the alley.

He was trying to be joking.

He didn't appear to be scared.

And I asked him what happened
in Utah,

and he told me, "I'm not
guilty, I'm not guilty.

I'm being framed,"
and as a defense lawyer,

I know that innocent people
are investigated.

I know innocent people
are charged,

and I knew the evidence
against Ted Bundy

was very circumstantial.

So you're going, "Well,
this guy may be innocent."

Ted certainly had
a grand idea of himself,

and a minimization
of the charges against him.

He used to call it
the "stupid little matter,"

and I would go,
"Ted, there's 10 cops outside

waiting to follow you.

You know, it's not
a stupid, little matter."

As with many criminals
and sociopaths,

they have no judgment at all.

Ted would try to minimize things

that simply couldn't
be minimized.

So he was jovial
and trying to be charismatic.

He wasn't charismatic.
He was trying to be charismatic.

Ted really--to me,
he never really pulled it off.

I became officially his attorney
in Washington State,

and I also began working
with him on the charges in Utah.

- Ted Bundy returned to Seattle
this week

under the watchful eye
of local investigators

who say he is a person
of interest

Bundy is currently free on bail

from a kidnapping charge
in Utah.

When I first met Ted,

my strategy was to minimize
the public's belief

that he was the Ted.

Ted knew he was being followed.

There was no subtlety
to what the task force was doing

when Ted was in Seattle.

- I think the defense attorneys
are necessary evils for sure.

I don't harbor any ill will
for them at all,

other than I'm trying
to beat 'em all the time.

- Keppel called me. He said--
I'll never forget--

"John, this is Detective Keppel,
and in this case,

the attorney-client privilege
shouldn't apply."

I'm kind of very more
anti-authoritarian then

than ever,
but it really pissed me off

that he would think
I would do that.

I said very firmly,
"You're full of [bleep]."

- I've known John Henry Browne
for years.

Let's put it this way.

I would put up
with John Henry Browne.

Like him? No.

I would think that

that would be a not proper use
of the word "like" at all.

♪ ♪

- Ted actually enjoyed
the attention

he was getting from the media
and the police.

They were following him
everywhere,

and that became almost comical,

'cause Ted would make
fun of them.

He'd make cookies for the cops.
He'd knock on their windows.

He would, like, make coffee

and take it
to the surveillance vehicles.

Ted would take on masks
and false mustaches

and the wigs and everything
to fool them.

- He was playing games with us,
trying to escape from us,

running through

the University of Washington
libraries.

He went researching

at the University of Washington
law library

and completely freaked out
the whole law school,

and I got a letter
from the dean of the law school,

saying, "I think it would be
better if Mr. Bundy used

"the King County law library
and not come to the law school.

As you know, we have many
women students here."

And I certainly don't blame
the dean or the women students

for being upset about it.

But, you know, you would think
the dean of a law school

would at least believe
in the presumption of innocence,

but that's how bad it was
back then.

Back in those days,

my phone number
was actually listed.

My home phone.

I had some people at my house,

and I think there was
a gathering

of three or four people
from the neighborhood,

and the phone rang,

and one of the women
in the neighborhood

answered the phone,
and it was,

"Hi. This is Ted Bundy.
Is John there?"

And that person left my house
and never came back.

The media followed him right
up to the door of my office,

and he would laugh
and wave at them,

and he enjoyed the attention.

- Diabolical genius,
deceptive, manipulative--

words authorities used
to describe Theodore Bundy.

- We still don't believe it.
Just can't be.

I keep shaking my head.

He did all the things
that most boys like to do.

- He used to go to the pet store
and buy 10 little mice,

and he would take 'em
into the woods,

and he'd build
this little corral,

and then he would choose
which one he was gonna kill.

And then he would exercise
his form of compassion,

let the others go.

Ted's history in childhood
was kind of an enigma,

and there's all kinds of
speculation.

He was born out of wedlock,
which I think was something

that really bothered him a lot,

and his mother pretended to be
his sister.

There are people who have
analyzed Ted in retrospect

who think that whole situation

fueled
his sociopathic tendencies.

I think his relationship
with his mother

was very problematic,

but I don't think it had
anything to do

with him being evil.

I think he was born evil,

and I never think
people are born evil.

I never did until
I met Ted Bundy.

♪ ♪

- Well, I didn't enter this life
planning on being a lawyer.

As a kid, my father was one
of the original members

of the Manhattan Project,

building the atomic bomb,

and I was born as a result
in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

After the war, we traveled
all over the country.

The last time I counted,

I went
to nine different schools.

I was rebellious
beginning in high school.

While I was
in undergraduate school,

I started the Denver chapter

of the Students
for a Democratic Society.

And then I was, of course,
in the rock and roll band,

which was anti-authoritarian,
to say the least.

We were called
the Crystal Palace Guard.

You know, we played with
Jimi Hendrix and The Doors

and the Grateful Dead
when they came to Denver.

So we became quite well-known
in Denver,

and much to the chagrin
of the Denver Police Department.

They started harassing us
pretty much on a weekly basis.

[siren wails]
Following us, stopping our band.

One Friday night,
I believe it was,

I got arrested
by the Denver Police

for a $12 bad check,

but the critical thing,
I guess, for my future,

was I decided in that experience

that I was gonna
go to law school

rather than become a rock star.

♪ ♪

I was assisting Ted
in defending

the charges against him
in Utah

for the Carol DaRonch
attempted kidnapping.

He never admitted Carol DaRonch
escaped from his Volkswagen Bug.

He would always focus on
the legalities of it

and how the lineup was unfair,
the photo montage was unfair.

But at the time,
I was the public defender

in Seattle assigned to his case,
and I didn't have the authority

to represent him in Utah,

so I suggested he contact
John O'Connell,

who was a very good lawyer,

and Ted, of course,
never listened to him.

John and I would talk
on the phone about the trial

because Ted was irritating him
so much.

I mean, Ted could burn
through lawyers really fast.

O'Connell thought there was

so much bad pre-trial publicity
about Ted,

he had a better chance
at being in front of a judge

rather than a jury.

And so he decided
to waive the jury.

This was a big risk, because if
you have a jury trial,

you've got 12 people
who could potentially say

I have a reasonable doubt.

When you have a judge,
it's just one person

that's making that decision.

So I would only waive the jury
in a case

where it's very clear
that my client is innocent,

which you couldn't say
about Ted.

The victim, Carol DaRonch,

took the stand and identified
Ted as her attempted kidnapper.

So the strategy was that
it was a horrible mistake,

in identification here.

Eyewitness identification

is the weakest kind of evidence
there is.

You can explain away eyewitness
testimony pretty easily,

'cause we all misidentify people
all the time.

"Aren't you so-and-so?"
"No, I'm not."

So it was, you know, actually,
not a bad defense at all,

except Ted, like an idiot,

decided he wanted to testify.

That's his right.
Lawyer can't make that decision.

And Ted was convinced
he could charm the judge.

So Ted took the stand
against John's advice.

John called me, and he says,

"I can't believe this [bleep]
wants to testify."

And that was the worst thing
Ted could have done,

'cause he was caught
in all these lies.

Ted lied about having
other license plates in his car.

How did he lie about that?
They're there.

He lied about the ice pick
and the handcuffs.

They were there.

So Ted was completely
discredited by the prosecution.

It was pathetic.

[buzzer]

The trial lasted four days.

He was convicted in Utah
of attempted kidnapping

and then given a rather
light sentence, 18 months,

because the authorities knew
things were cooking in Colorado.

- New evidence has linked
Ted Bundy

nearly two years ago.

- The police authorities claimed
they found a hair

in Ted's Volkswagen that was
seized and searched in Utah

that was similar to a hair from
a missing woman in Colorado.

Everybody knows, including
a first-year police cadet

that hair analysis
is not definitive.

The most you can tell from hair
is race and gender.

The only way you can tell
any more from hair

is if you have a follicle which
you could use for DNA testing,

but, of course, back then, they
didn't have any DNA testing.

- That was
the only physical evidence

that anyone had, but it was
good enough for court.

- Aspen Police have begun
expedition proceedings

to bring Bundy to Colorado,

where he has been charged
with murder.

- The death penalty in Colorado
had just been reinstated,

so I knew I would be hearing
from Ted again.

I went to visit him
in the Utah prison.

He had just been charged
with murder in Colorado,

and I was assisting him
on the extradition.

There was a lot of eyewitness
identification in Colorado,

and the circumstantial evidence
was mounting.

I was talking about getting
a psychological exam for him

to convince the authorities

in Utah and Colorado
to release him to Washington,

where he could serve his time
in a mental institution

rather than prison.

I suggested that idea,
and he ultimately rejected it.

Usually, Ted would continue
to play the game.

"I'm not guilty, I'm not guilty.

I'm being framed. I'm being
framed. I'm being framed."

But in Utah, he no longer
had that façade.

He didn't say and admit

that he had committed
all these horrendous acts,

but he no longer pretended
that he didn't,

and now everything was becoming
more and more clear to me

that Ted was
the sociopathic murderer

that people claimed he was.

♪ ♪

And that upset me greatly.

I mean, I had to
compartmentalize my lawyer side

and my human side--
not only my human side

but somebody who'd been
victimized

because of the death
of my girlfriend,

so there was this
turmoil going on inside me,

and the first time I really
recognized that was in Utah,

and it was very difficult
for me.

I believe everybody has
the presumption of innocence

and requires the state to prove
things beyond reasonable doubt,

but representing Ted
was becoming

an ultimate test
of my belief system.

♪ ♪

- I really think the only reason

to be a lawyer
is to help people.

I don't think
it's to make money

because I haven't made
a lot of money,

but I think I've helped
a lot of people.

I represented a
National Football League player

who was charged
with sex offenses,

and he was totally innocent,
and I won that case.

I've taken to trial
over 350 cases,

which is probably more
than any lawyer I know.

It's really hard work.

You know, I've had a family life

that hasn't been
very, um...normal.

- John's very complicated.
He's brilliant, very thoughtful.

He's very funny,

but in a lot of ways,
I think he's been tortured,

having handled some
of these horrific cases

over many decades.

There are times when I dealt
with my stress

in unproductive ways--
drugs, alcohol.

I think I've dealt with it
not very well.

My dad, who was very--

at one point,
a very progressive man,

said, "If we're gonna have
a free society,

"there has to be defense lawyers
who are the absolute best

and who will stand behind
citizen and the government."

Then he paused, and he says,
"I'm just sorry that it's you."

[dramatic music]

- Drilled under
suspicion of murder,

Ted Bundy escaped from

the Pitkin County Courthouse
this afternoon,

evading the authorities.

- He was acting
as his own lawyer,

so he was allowed to use
the courthouse law library

without really supervision.

Maybe a guard
was out in the hall

or standing by the door.

The jailers were foolish
enough

to take
his ankle bracelets off,

and then he jumped out
the window,

he sprained his ankle,
he walked along the river,

he ended up breaking
into a cabin

up in the mountains,

and there was a manhunt for him
all over the country,

and then he got caught driving
through Aspen

at 2:00 in the morning
in a pink convertible.

So then they arrested him.

- I don't like being
locked up

for something I didn't do,
and I don't like

people walking around
and ogling me

like I'm some sort of weirdo,
because I'm not.

- I was the first person
he called,

and I flew to Aspen
at his parents' expense.

Ted was sleeping on the floor,

and the guards said,
"Hey, Bundy, wake up.

You got a visitor,"
and Ted woke up

and rubbed his eyes.

He looked at me and he goes,
"Hey, John, did you figure out

which one of those two guys
pushed me out of the window?"

And I didn't think
it was very funny,

and neither did the officers.

He was always trying
to manipulate or charm me.

He failed at both.

He had just been charged
with murders in Colorado.

So Ted asked me
during that conversation

where a person would go

to most likely get
the death penalty,

which I thought was an
odd question, to say the least.

And then I said--
without hesitation, I said,

"Florida or Texas."

'Cause their statutes had
recently been upheld

by the Supreme Court.

♪ ♪

Once he escaped from Aspen,

they put him in a newer jail
in Glenwood Springs.

- They intend to place
the accused murderer

in a high-level security risk
cell.

- I interceded
with the authorities

in the Glenwood Springs jail
to get him access to the phone,

access to mail
that was not censored

between attorney-client,

to improve his diet

with the health food
sometimes he was eating.

These are
constitutional privileges

which any defendant in jail
should have.

Later, when I saw him
in Glenwood Springs,

it was amazing to me how much
weight he'd lost,

and he was also working out
a lot.

He was very muscular, very thin.

And this didn't occur
to the jailers

that, you know, why is Ted
losing all this weight?

You might go,
"Well, maybe there's an issue

with this 12-inch grate
in the ceiling."

[siren wailing, alarm buzzing]

- The County Sheriff's Office
from Aspen

called and said...
[telephone rings]

"Son of a bitch is gone.
He escaped."

- People to this day have
a hard time--

myself have a hard time
believing that the authorities

led him to escape twice, so it
involved a lot of planning.

And he was in the cell right
next to where the jailers slept,

and he knew the jailer left
on Friday nights

to go visit his girlfriend,

which let nobody
in the jail, security-wise.

So he went--
just like the movies.

He went through
the ventilation grate

and then through the ducting
into the jailers' closet

and then went outside
to a blizzard.

- I didn't know what to think.
I didn't know if Bundy

would head to Seattle,
but I did fear

that every time he escaped,
he could kill somebody.

- I felt guilty, and I think,
emotionally upset

that I'd helped him get
into the shape

he needed to be in, basically,
to escape again.

Because I knew that if Ted
was loose,

he would kill again, period.

♪ ♪

- After Ted's second escape,

Ted takes a bus from Vail
to the Denver airport,

and he got on an airplane
to Chicago

and then went from Chicago
to Ann Arbor

'cause he always hangs
around universities.

And he said he was watching
the Rose Bowl

when there was a little ticker
along the bottom of the show,

saying, "Ted Bundy
escapes second time."

I was very concerned that it was
just only a matter of time.

I knew if Ted Bundy was loose,
period, he would kill.

[suspenseful music]

I was sitting in my office
in Pioneer Square in Seattle.

It was 7:00 at night,

and my answering service
calls me

and says, "There's a Mr. Rosebud
on the phone,"

and I knew immediately
it was Ted.

- I do know he asked John
when he was in Colorado,

"Where will they most likely
put me to death

in the United States?"
and John said Florida,

and that's exactly where
Ted went.

In Florida, he broke
into the Chi Omega house

and killed Margaret Bowman
and Lisa Levy.

- The he brutally beat
three more sleeping coeds,

Karen Chandler and Kathy Klein.

Cheryl Ann Thomas was
severely beaten

in her apartment
six blocks away.

- And then he killed
Kimberly Leach in Tallahassee,

who was 12.

She was walking home
from school.

So he got caught,
as he got caught in Utah,

driving around drunk.

- He's arrested and he's in jail
and they don't know

that he's Ted Bundy,
and that's when he called me.

♪ ♪

And that conversation was
the most bizarre.

I mean, he'd sounded more crazy
than I'd ever heard him before.

I mean,
he was changing subjects.

He was using other tenses.

I think it was alcohol,
but I think he was also having

a psychotic episode
of some kind,

and I think he was calling me
to just let me know

that he was in custody,

and, you know,
what should he do?

I said, "Ted, you better
tell 'em who you are.

You know, at least you'd sound
like you're being cooperative."

He was picked up
for something minor,

so I assumed he would be
released by the next day,

and if Ted Bundy was released,
he would kill again.

I wanted to call
the authorities,

but I didn't because
the attorney-client privilege

would prevent me
from doing that.

You can't talk about any
communications with your client

without the client's approval,
so it was a real dilemma

for me, my conscience,
my heart,

you know, having lost
a woman friend to a murderer.

It was all playing
through my mind,

and it really was a "Do I want
to be a lawyer anymore?"

That went through my mind
that night a lot.

Do I want to be in this
position again ever?

I picked the phone a number
of times to call the task force

and then put it down,
and I called a friend of mine

who's a law professor,
and he said,

"Well, under the ethical rules,
you can't do that."

And then the human part of me
was going,

"You need to do something
about this."

So it was
a very, very difficult evening.

[dramatic music]

The next morning, they
had put the pieces together,

and they knew that it was Ted.

♪ ♪

Can't tell you the number
of times that I had decided

I wasn't gonna help him anymore,

but I got drawn back in because
the death penalty was looming.

I've never been able
to rationalize

why he went to Florida
when I told him

that was one of the places
you would get the death penalty.

But I don't know.

I think it's more Ted liked
playing the game.

He liked the playing the game
with authority.

It still doesn't explain
why he ends up in Florida.

Nobody thought anybody could get
a plea bargain for Ted Bundy.

It's like getting a plea bargain
for the Devil, but we did.

Millard Farmer and I worked
with the prosecutors

in Florida, Colorado, Utah,
and Washington.

The understanding was
that if you pled guilty

and we had a life without parole
sentence in Florida,

then the other states
would stop prosecuting.

And the first response
we got was laughter.

We had to soften them up,

and say, "No, we're serious,"

and that took probably
two months.

Now Ted would have
to plead guilty

and say he was actually
the Ted.

But it was very difficult
to get Ted to admit

he did anything wrong.

It was an interesting week
or so because Millard and I

decided we were gonna deprive
Ted of sleep.

[scoffs] So I spent five hours
with Ted,

and I go back to the hotel.

And then Millard would come in
and spend five hours with Ted,

so we basically wore Ted down,

and he finally signed
the paperwork.

[reporters shouting at once]

We were walking into court
to do it,

and part of the deal
with the prosecutors was

nobody was to alert the media.

We were just going in and do it
and obviously,

the prosecutors
or the police, more likely,

contacted media
so it was a media circus

at the courthouse.

- Level check 1, 2, 3.

- That really pissed off Ted,
and Ted walks into the courtroom

and sees all the media
and all this stuff.

Turns around to me and says,
"I'm not gonna do it."

- We got a court order that
there won't be any press in--

- Sure, there won't be
any press interviews.

You've given them up.
I'm game. You're not.

- All right, we're--
- I'll be heard.

- We went back
into the holding cell,

and he tore up his copy

of the Statement of Defendant
on Plea of Guilty form.

I don't think I was angry
as much as disappointed

because we had really worked
to get the impossible.

Millard put his leg up
on the chair in the holding cell

and said to Ted,
"Ted, me and John Henry

"only have so much time
in this life,

"and we're gonna spend it
helping people

that really wanna live. Bye!"

And Millard never got involved
in it again.

I then told Ted that this could
have been over with

and that I felt he had
a death wish

and that I was not gonna
help him anymore.

That was the end
of my involvement

with Ted except when I testified
in Miami.

[synthesizer music]

♪ ♪

- The jurors were brought in
to hear the details

of what Ted Bundy is
specifically charged with.

Prosecuting attorneys
have told the jurors

that they believe Ted Bundy,

on the morning
of January 15, 1978,

walked into the Florida State
Chi Omega house,

strangled two young coeds,
brutally beat two others

and then struck again,
nearly killing a fifth woman.

If convicted, Bundy faces
the death penalty.

- I do believe that criminals
deserve a proper defense

because that's our system
of justice,

but I do think that he deserved
to die for what he did.

- At one point, when
a university police officer

not his attorneys,

did the cross-examining.

- The first victim you saw
was Kathy Klein?

- Yes.
- Ted made the stupid decision,

of course, to represent himself
in court.

He thinks he's very likeable,
but he's not.

- Will you identify
whose photograph that is?

- That's you.

- Theodore Robert Bundy.

- Before I forget to ask
the $64,000 question,

did you have a search warrant
to search my car?

- No, sir.

- Ted looks like a lawyer.
He acts like a lawyer.

He's very respectful
and all that, but, you know,

the jury wasn't buying
any of it,

and, you know, it makes--

it screams sociopath
to the jury.

And even though I thought
I was through with Ted Bundy,

once again, I was pulled
into his world.

It had to do with that
phone call that Ted made to me

18 months earlier.

When Ted called me the night
he was arrested in Florida,

he clearly wasn't rational
in that conversation.

And turns out the phone call
wasn't monitored

because they didn't know
he was calling an attorney.

So I was subpoenaed by both
the defense and the prosecution

to testify about his state
of mind at the time he gave

the statements to the police.

But I had to get Ted to agree
to allow me to testify

'cause it might involve
the attorney-client privilege,

so the day before I was
to testify

I went to visit him
at the Dade County Jail.

The constructed cell
was like a Hannibal Lecter cell,

and they had guards
watching Ted 24/7.

And he was lying
on the cell floor,

and he was crying,
and he was very upset.

And that's when he looked at me
from the floor

with tears in his eyes,
and he said

he killed over a hundred people.

♪ ♪

- The day before I was to
testify at Ted's Miami trial,

I went to visit him
at the Dade County Jail.

And he was lying
on the cell floor,

and he was crying,
and he was very upset.

And that's when he looked at me
from the floor

with tears in his eyes,
and he said,

"John, I really want to be
a good person. I'm just not."

♪ ♪

And that's when he told me,
I think the only person he told,

was that the first person
he killed was a young boy

when they were playing some kind
of sex game in the woods.

Um, and so he must have been
only 12, 13, or 14.

I didn't go
into a lot of detail,

'cause I didn't need to
or want to.

Ted told me in that interview
that he'd killed

over a hundred people.

♪ ♪

And then he told me he'd been
active in the Northeast,

Idaho,

and for the first time,
California.

I think he was purging himself,

and I think for a brief period
of time,

that small part of him

that recognized that he was evil
came out.

That was the time
that I felt most like

I don't want to be here.

I'm not sure I even want to be
a defense lawyer.

I remember
holding the jail cell,

not facing Ted and I was going,

"You know, what the hell
are you doing here?

You know, why are you doing--
helping this disgusting person?"

- When Ted began confessing
a lot of things,

and John couldn't talk
about what Ted confessed

until Ted died because of
the attorney-client privilege,

which was
it wasn't 36 dead girls.

It was over a hundred,

and the details of what he did
to their bodies

and did to them
when they were alive.

What a horrible burden,
you know,

to deal with someone like that
that's the worst of the worst,

the most heinous
of the heinous.

And all of those details,
John had to keep to himself,

and I think that had to be
torture.

- And also it was in that
conversation where he told me

that he knew about the death
of my girlfriend.

The first time I'd heard that
from Ted.

So that obviously
upset me greatly.

There's no belief amongst
the police authorities now

that Ted anything to do
with Deborah's murder.

But she did fit the profile
of all the people

that he was killing.

It was almost
beyond coincidence,

but I believe, as I say,
I mean, I have to believe

that Ted had nothing to do
with Deborah's death.

I have to believe that,

because I could never forgive
myself if he did.

But the fact that he knew
about it and then chose me

is very creepy.

I don't know that
it's explainable.

At one point, I excused myself
and went to the men's room

and got sick to my stomach.

This emotional state went on
for an hour or more, maybe two,

and then all of a sudden
I said something,

"Well, why are you telling me
all this?"

And he just completely snapped
back into his lawyer-like mode

and got up, sat on the bunk,
washed his face off,

everything was fine.

And I find that very chilling.

[dramatic music]

- Just six and a half hours
after Judge Edward Cowart

handed the case to the jury,

the 12-member panel returned
with a verdict.

- He was convicted
in the Chi Omega murders

based on basically a bite mark

and then, he, of course,
had the Kimberly Leach case

up in Tallahassee,
where he killed a 12-year-old.

And he was convicted
of everything

and sentenced to death.

- Your sentence rendered
by the jury

does hereby impose
the death penalty

upon the defendant,
Theodore Robert Bundy.

- Thank you.
- It's a tragedy for this court

to see such a total waste,
I think, of humanity

that I've experienced
in this court.

You're a bright young man.

You'd have made a good lawyer.

I'd have loved to have you
practice in front of me,

but you went another way,
partner.

- I never felt threatened
personally by Ted.

There were times, of course,
I wanted to do him harm

because he would
just continue killing

until he was caught
or killed.

But that was a fleeting thought.

I'm not a violent person.

[melancholy music]

He would correspond with me
from Death Row in Florida.

He would send Christmas cards.
He invited me to his execution.

I said, "No, thank you, Ted.
I'm not gonna do that.

It's not really
on my bucket list."

[melancholy music]

I think representing Ted Bundy

was the turning point
in my life.

♪ ♪

I've definitely done everything
I could in my whole career

to be anti-death penalty.

You know, Ted was the biggest
test you could have, really,

and I passed that test, yes.

♪ ♪

- You know, for John,
I've talked to him

about so many of his cases
over the years.

Ted was one of 'em, but I think
Ted has now become the one.

I think it's the kind of case
that haunts you.

It haunts everybody.
Imagine being John Henry Browne.

- Once, Ted told me that,

"You know, the reason that
you've been my lawyer

and legal advisor so long
is 'cause we're so much alike."

And that was haunting
to say the least.

What bothered me the most
is that he would think that

we were somehow friends.

He came to that conclusion
wrongfully.

You never really become friends
with the Devil...intentionally.

♪ ♪

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