Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000
Downloaded from
YTS.MX
2
00:00:06,931 --> 00:00:07,862
- I have, like,
3
00:00:07,965 --> 00:00:11,551
some notes on my leaving
speech at Instagram.
4
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
5
00:00:11,655 --> 00:00:13,137
It says,
"I joined three years ago
6
00:00:13,241 --> 00:00:15,931
"as the first international
employee based out of London.
7
00:00:16,034 --> 00:00:17,827
"I couldn't imagine
leaving our community
8
00:00:17,931 --> 00:00:18,862
"in better hands.
9
00:00:18,965 --> 00:00:21,103
"I've met
so many amazing people
10
00:00:21,206 --> 00:00:22,689
"and had the chance
to change lives.
11
00:00:22,793 --> 00:00:26,103
"Learning to laugh
at yourself, humility,
12
00:00:26,206 --> 00:00:28,586
"and always thank
the little people."
13
00:00:28,689 --> 00:00:31,827
Kind of crazy that you have
all these things in here,
14
00:00:31,931 --> 00:00:35,344
you know,
like a trip down memory lane.
15
00:00:36,896 --> 00:00:39,241
My name is Hannah Ray.
16
00:00:39,344 --> 00:00:42,448
I worked at Instagram
as a community manager
17
00:00:42,551 --> 00:00:44,586
for Europe,
Middle East and Africa.
18
00:00:44,689 --> 00:00:45,655
I'm Greg Hochmuth.
19
00:00:45,758 --> 00:00:48,068
I was one of the first
engineers at Instagram.
20
00:00:48,172 --> 00:00:49,724
My name is Andy Warr.
21
00:00:49,827 --> 00:00:52,275
I was
the Head of Research there.
22
00:00:52,379 --> 00:00:53,344
My name is Chris Messina.
23
00:00:53,448 --> 00:00:54,965
And I am best known
24
00:00:55,068 --> 00:00:56,551
for inventing the hashtag.
25
00:00:56,655 --> 00:00:57,758
It's a little hard to see,
26
00:00:57,862 --> 00:00:59,620
but I've got
a little hashtag tattoo
27
00:00:59,724 --> 00:01:00,965
right here on my wrist.
28
00:01:01,068 --> 00:01:03,344
So...yeah.
29
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,241
Instagram was this place
30
00:01:11,344 --> 00:01:13,758
where you posted
your best self,
31
00:01:13,862 --> 00:01:16,241
the digital representation
of you
32
00:01:16,344 --> 00:01:18,931
that you wanted to portray
to your friends.
33
00:01:19,034 --> 00:01:23,310
Now follower counts have like
a certain social currency.
34
00:01:23,413 --> 00:01:25,482
Maybe we weren't quite aware
35
00:01:25,586 --> 00:01:28,034
that we were kind of
kingmaking in that way.
36
00:01:32,586 --> 00:01:33,551
I think comes a point
37
00:01:33,655 --> 00:01:37,137
when you just aren't in
control of it anymore.
38
00:01:37,241 --> 00:01:39,517
And then it, like,
took on a life of its own.
39
00:01:39,620 --> 00:01:42,379
- Facebook's Instagram app...
40
00:01:42,482 --> 00:01:44,413
..can be toxic
for teenagers...
41
00:01:44,517 --> 00:01:47,206
..and Facebook knows it.
42
00:01:47,310 --> 00:01:48,655
She's the former
Facebook employee
43
00:01:48,758 --> 00:01:49,793
turned whistleblower,
44
00:01:49,896 --> 00:01:51,655
whose revelations
are reverberating
45
00:01:51,758 --> 00:01:52,862
around the world.
46
00:01:52,965 --> 00:01:54,068
- "The company's leadership
47
00:01:54,172 --> 00:01:56,862
"knows how to make Facebook
and Instagram safer.
48
00:01:56,965 --> 00:01:59,103
"They have put their
astronomical profits
49
00:01:59,206 --> 00:02:00,793
"before people."
50
00:02:00,896 --> 00:02:02,448
My name is Frances Haugen.
51
00:02:02,551 --> 00:02:05,413
We're facing one of the
fundamental conflicts
52
00:02:05,517 --> 00:02:07,000
of our civilization -
53
00:02:07,103 --> 00:02:09,482
which is are we going
to let algorithms rule us,
54
00:02:09,586 --> 00:02:11,724
or will people rule
algorithms?
55
00:02:11,827 --> 00:02:13,413
How do
we increase engagement,
56
00:02:13,517 --> 00:02:15,448
how do we increase
time spent?
57
00:02:15,551 --> 00:02:17,482
I didn't feel like
that was the best use
58
00:02:17,586 --> 00:02:19,241
of people's time.
59
00:02:19,344 --> 00:02:21,379
We don't fully understand
what the consequences
60
00:02:21,482 --> 00:02:23,448
of this period will be.
61
00:02:23,551 --> 00:02:24,931
This is just the beginning.
62
00:02:25,034 --> 00:02:28,068
And the thing that
I think young people see,
63
00:02:28,172 --> 00:02:30,310
that maybe people a little
bit older than them don't,
64
00:02:30,413 --> 00:02:32,586
is how intense
the problems are,
65
00:02:32,689 --> 00:02:34,551
because teenagers
are killing themselves
66
00:02:34,655 --> 00:02:36,000
because of Instagram.
67
00:02:36,103 --> 00:02:37,344
This challenge of, like,
68
00:02:37,448 --> 00:02:39,793
making Instagram
feel less pressurised
69
00:02:39,896 --> 00:02:42,931
I think is very difficult,
if not impossible.
70
00:02:43,034 --> 00:02:44,241
Could we predict?
71
00:02:44,344 --> 00:02:45,344
I don't even know.
72
00:02:45,448 --> 00:02:47,758
I don't know how to answer
that question, really.
73
00:02:47,862 --> 00:02:49,379
I'm gonna go with no...?
74
00:03:10,068 --> 00:03:12,896
- My name is Lauren Black
and I'm an influencer.
75
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,241
I have 123,000 followers.
76
00:03:19,068 --> 00:03:20,827
One of my ex-boyfriends'
sisters
77
00:03:20,931 --> 00:03:23,103
actually bought me a book for
Christmas about blogging,
78
00:03:23,206 --> 00:03:26,413
and that was when
I started my Instagram.
79
00:03:26,517 --> 00:03:29,310
I was posting about fashion,
every day,
80
00:03:29,413 --> 00:03:30,448
like, what I was wearing,
81
00:03:30,551 --> 00:03:32,655
like,
outfit of the day posts.
82
00:03:32,758 --> 00:03:36,034
I went full time about
six months after starting.
83
00:03:36,137 --> 00:03:39,724
I took a massive risk by,
like, leaving uni
84
00:03:39,827 --> 00:03:41,965
and not having any savings.
85
00:03:42,068 --> 00:03:45,137
And I just threw everything
that I had into it.
86
00:03:45,241 --> 00:03:47,068
Hi! Oh!
87
00:03:47,172 --> 00:03:52,448
- She loves beautiful ladies.
- Aw, thank you.
88
00:03:54,413 --> 00:03:56,931
I started posting
IGTV videos.
89
00:03:57,034 --> 00:04:00,275
And that took me from about
30,000 followers
90
00:04:00,379 --> 00:04:03,689
to over 100,000 followers.
91
00:04:03,793 --> 00:04:04,896
It was quite a jump,
92
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:05,896
it was something that
93
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,103
I wasn't really mentally
prepared for.
94
00:04:08,206 --> 00:04:10,517
I was quite anxious
because every day
95
00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:12,172
I had to then please
96
00:04:12,275 --> 00:04:15,034
thousands more
people than usual.
97
00:04:15,137 --> 00:04:18,551
I was on Instagram
all the time,
98
00:04:18,655 --> 00:04:22,103
like my screentime
was like 13 hours a day.
99
00:04:23,965 --> 00:04:25,965
It was, like,
from the moment I woke up
100
00:04:26,068 --> 00:04:28,137
until the moment
I went to sleep.
101
00:04:28,241 --> 00:04:30,206
I'd literally
just be scrolling.
102
00:04:30,310 --> 00:04:32,310
And, like, liking other
people's pictures,
103
00:04:32,413 --> 00:04:36,551
and, like...yeah,
just scrolling.
104
00:04:37,551 --> 00:04:38,862
- I'm Manish Raghavan.
105
00:04:38,965 --> 00:04:40,931
I worked for
the Responsible AI team.
106
00:04:41,034 --> 00:04:43,310
We served to try to help
other teams within Facebook
107
00:04:43,413 --> 00:04:46,310
better understand
how to build
108
00:04:46,413 --> 00:04:47,931
and deploy AI responsibly.
109
00:04:48,034 --> 00:04:50,965
If you want to understand why
Instagram is the way it is,
110
00:04:51,068 --> 00:04:53,344
you have to understand how
the algorithms have shaped it
111
00:04:53,448 --> 00:04:54,379
to be that way.
112
00:04:54,482 --> 00:04:55,827
They are the result
of people's choices.
113
00:04:55,931 --> 00:04:58,241
- The goal of any
social media company
114
00:04:58,344 --> 00:05:01,172
is to make sure that
you spend as much time
115
00:05:01,275 --> 00:05:03,655
on that platform as possible,
116
00:05:03,758 --> 00:05:06,103
and engage as much
with content
117
00:05:06,206 --> 00:05:08,862
on that platform as possible.
118
00:05:08,965 --> 00:05:11,724
Different algorithms underpin
platforms like Instagram.
119
00:05:11,827 --> 00:05:14,931
It's a way of ordering
things.
120
00:05:15,034 --> 00:05:17,310
It's a way of saying
yes or no to something.
121
00:05:17,413 --> 00:05:19,413
What people often think
122
00:05:19,517 --> 00:05:23,689
about how social media
feed systems work
123
00:05:23,793 --> 00:05:25,517
is that
they're one algorithm,
124
00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:28,275
and that somebody sits down
and writes that algorithm
125
00:05:28,379 --> 00:05:30,896
and says,
"If you have two photos,
126
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,137
"one of them is a person
and one of them is a cat,
127
00:05:33,241 --> 00:05:34,551
"people are more
important than cats,
128
00:05:34,655 --> 00:05:36,931
"so we're gonna rank
the person above the cat."
129
00:05:37,896 --> 00:05:40,448
But there is no one algorithm
130
00:05:40,551 --> 00:05:42,551
that is written down
that determines
131
00:05:42,655 --> 00:05:44,448
the order in which
you see things
132
00:05:44,551 --> 00:05:47,103
on your Instagram feed,
on your Facebook News Feed
133
00:05:47,206 --> 00:05:48,827
or on your Google search.
134
00:05:50,551 --> 00:05:53,241
The crucial thing about
those algorithms
135
00:05:53,344 --> 00:05:57,724
is that they use hundreds
of machine learning models.
136
00:05:59,586 --> 00:06:02,379
The way that the hundreds
of machine learning models
137
00:06:02,482 --> 00:06:04,103
interact with each other
138
00:06:04,206 --> 00:06:07,413
is determined by
the overarching metric
139
00:06:07,517 --> 00:06:09,862
that guides the feed
ranking system.
140
00:06:09,965 --> 00:06:11,275
In Instagram,
141
00:06:11,379 --> 00:06:12,689
that overriding metric
142
00:06:12,793 --> 00:06:14,793
that orients
the machine learning models
143
00:06:14,896 --> 00:06:18,482
is meaningful
social interactions.
144
00:06:18,586 --> 00:06:20,551
The meaningful bit cannot
just be about the people
145
00:06:20,655 --> 00:06:22,965
that are close to you,
like friends and family.
146
00:06:23,068 --> 00:06:25,482
It can be about stuff
that you're interested in.
147
00:06:25,586 --> 00:06:27,931
Instagram figures out
who is meaningful to you
148
00:06:28,034 --> 00:06:31,827
and who tends to engage often
with the content you produce.
149
00:06:31,931 --> 00:06:34,413
They predict whether
you're likely to like a post,
150
00:06:34,517 --> 00:06:36,241
whether you're likely
to share a post
151
00:06:36,344 --> 00:06:40,379
or whether you're likely to
comment underneath the post.
152
00:06:40,482 --> 00:06:44,068
And so interactions from
the people closer to you
153
00:06:44,172 --> 00:06:46,655
tend to be prioritised
above interactions
154
00:06:46,758 --> 00:06:47,827
from people
who are further out
155
00:06:47,931 --> 00:06:49,517
in that network from you.
156
00:06:50,655 --> 00:06:52,241
- What Instagram
is looking to do
157
00:06:52,344 --> 00:06:54,896
is keep you engaged
in some way.
158
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,448
This is slightly different
from asking
159
00:06:56,551 --> 00:06:58,896
what do you actually
want to see?
160
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,068
The algorithms are
the most opaque part
161
00:07:02,172 --> 00:07:03,758
of this whole system.
162
00:07:03,862 --> 00:07:05,793
You can see
the user behaviour,
163
00:07:05,896 --> 00:07:07,482
you can see sort of like
the consequences
164
00:07:07,586 --> 00:07:09,172
of what happens
as a result of being exposed
165
00:07:09,275 --> 00:07:10,172
to certain content,
166
00:07:10,275 --> 00:07:11,758
especially over
and over again.
167
00:07:11,862 --> 00:07:13,689
But we don't necessarily
understand,
168
00:07:13,793 --> 00:07:15,206
and some of the companies
don't even understand,
169
00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:19,000
how content is targeted
to different individuals,
170
00:07:19,103 --> 00:07:21,965
what choices they made
to go down certain paths.
171
00:07:22,068 --> 00:07:23,655
And that lack of awareness
172
00:07:23,758 --> 00:07:25,896
is where
we're the most vulnerable.
173
00:07:28,068 --> 00:07:30,689
I've always had problems
with food
174
00:07:30,793 --> 00:07:33,206
since I was a teenager.
175
00:07:34,827 --> 00:07:36,206
I used to collect 'Vogue'
176
00:07:36,310 --> 00:07:38,137
and all fashion magazines
anyway.
177
00:07:38,241 --> 00:07:41,793
So, I already was aspiring
178
00:07:41,896 --> 00:07:45,310
to be model-like.
179
00:07:48,344 --> 00:07:51,379
When I started this job,
180
00:07:51,482 --> 00:07:54,896
I didn't realise, like,
181
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,344
the impact of looking
and comparing myself
182
00:07:59,448 --> 00:08:03,034
to other people
had on my mental health.
183
00:08:03,137 --> 00:08:08,034
And my eating disorder
got worse over the years.
184
00:08:10,103 --> 00:08:11,793
- I think the thing
that's really important
185
00:08:11,896 --> 00:08:14,206
for people to understand
is how Instagram
186
00:08:14,310 --> 00:08:17,000
differs from other
social media platforms.
187
00:08:17,103 --> 00:08:18,896
Tik Tok is about performance.
188
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,379
It's about doing fun things
with your friends.
189
00:08:21,482 --> 00:08:23,689
Snapchat is about faces
and augmented reality.
190
00:08:23,793 --> 00:08:25,103
You know,
it's not actually you.
191
00:08:25,206 --> 00:08:27,034
It's you with a mask on.
192
00:08:27,137 --> 00:08:28,137
Facebook's internal research
193
00:08:28,241 --> 00:08:30,241
says that Instagram
is about bodies
194
00:08:30,344 --> 00:08:31,482
and about social comparison.
195
00:08:31,586 --> 00:08:32,551
You know, it's about seeing
196
00:08:32,655 --> 00:08:34,310
these little windows into
other people's lives
197
00:08:34,413 --> 00:08:35,413
and comparing, like,
198
00:08:35,517 --> 00:08:37,620
what is your life
like to theirs?
199
00:08:37,724 --> 00:08:40,103
The human brain
is not evolved
200
00:08:40,206 --> 00:08:41,793
to deal with social media.
201
00:08:41,896 --> 00:08:44,310
It isn't evolved to look
at a screen all day
202
00:08:44,413 --> 00:08:45,965
and be able to understand,
let's say,
203
00:08:46,068 --> 00:08:46,965
that the thing that
204
00:08:47,068 --> 00:08:48,551
you're seeing on the other
side of the screen
205
00:08:48,655 --> 00:08:50,965
isn't someone's real life.
206
00:08:51,068 --> 00:08:52,896
- Everyone that I followed on
Instagram then
207
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,620
would have been probably
like from sizes four to six.
208
00:08:57,724 --> 00:09:01,068
And that was kind of what
I was trying to achieve.
209
00:09:02,517 --> 00:09:04,793
- The algorithms are
looking for the content
210
00:09:04,896 --> 00:09:06,137
that will lure you in.
211
00:09:06,241 --> 00:09:08,103
These algorithms are always
looking for the rabbit hole
212
00:09:08,206 --> 00:09:09,793
that you are most
vulnerable to.
213
00:09:09,896 --> 00:09:12,172
You can start with quite
innocuous interests,
214
00:09:12,275 --> 00:09:14,103
you know, you can search
for healthy eating.
215
00:09:14,206 --> 00:09:17,827
These rabbit holes
normalise the idea
216
00:09:17,931 --> 00:09:19,793
that you should be
extremely thin
217
00:09:19,896 --> 00:09:22,103
and is it your fault
if you're not.
218
00:09:23,379 --> 00:09:24,689
- So, I used to see myself
219
00:09:24,793 --> 00:09:27,379
as bigger than what I was.
220
00:09:27,482 --> 00:09:30,310
Yeah, it was kind of
unconsciously...
221
00:09:31,655 --> 00:09:34,724
..it started getting bad.
222
00:09:34,827 --> 00:09:37,551
I basically just ignored
when I was hungry.
223
00:09:39,137 --> 00:09:41,137
And when I did eat,
224
00:09:41,241 --> 00:09:44,931
it would just be
the tiniest amount.
225
00:09:45,034 --> 00:09:48,620
I woke up
and I was so busy with work
226
00:09:48,724 --> 00:09:52,379
that I just put it off
for as long as possible.
227
00:09:52,482 --> 00:09:54,137
And I feel like
that's kind of like
228
00:09:54,241 --> 00:09:55,586
the sense of self harm
229
00:09:55,689 --> 00:09:57,620
of having an eating disorder.
230
00:09:57,724 --> 00:09:59,965
It's just basically starving
yourself.
231
00:10:00,068 --> 00:10:01,620
When I look back on
pictures now,
232
00:10:01,724 --> 00:10:03,793
you can clearly see
that I was ill.
233
00:10:03,896 --> 00:10:07,275
But when I was in
the middle of it all
234
00:10:07,379 --> 00:10:10,379
I just didn't really know.
235
00:10:13,620 --> 00:10:16,655
I think I thought
if I changed myself
236
00:10:16,758 --> 00:10:20,344
then I would
gain more followers
237
00:10:20,448 --> 00:10:24,172
and get all these
new opportunities.
238
00:10:24,275 --> 00:10:25,724
I just created this,
239
00:10:25,827 --> 00:10:30,379
like, like, vision in my mind
that if I went and did this
240
00:10:30,482 --> 00:10:32,344
then this would be
the outcome.
241
00:10:32,448 --> 00:10:34,517
And it just...it was a lie.
242
00:10:36,379 --> 00:10:38,241
- There were things
that we were aware of
243
00:10:38,344 --> 00:10:39,241
that we would feed back.
244
00:10:39,344 --> 00:10:42,655
The hashtag 'thinspo'
has just popped up
245
00:10:42,758 --> 00:10:44,689
and it should probably
be banned.
246
00:10:44,793 --> 00:10:45,758
So,
those things would come up
247
00:10:45,862 --> 00:10:48,137
and then we'd kind of jump
on them
248
00:10:48,241 --> 00:10:49,827
and quickly figure out, like,
249
00:10:49,931 --> 00:10:51,862
the best policy
to do that.
250
00:10:51,965 --> 00:10:54,758
But you have to remember,
that's alongside, like,
251
00:10:54,862 --> 00:10:57,448
loads of other kind of
firefighting issues
252
00:10:57,551 --> 00:10:58,413
that were popping up.
253
00:10:58,517 --> 00:10:59,758
I mean, daily,
254
00:10:59,862 --> 00:11:01,758
there were, like,
new things coming up
255
00:11:01,862 --> 00:11:05,172
that I think are just part
of, like, just how huge
256
00:11:05,275 --> 00:11:07,517
the platform was growing
so quickly.
257
00:11:19,517 --> 00:11:20,551
At the time I joined,
258
00:11:20,655 --> 00:11:23,965
Instagram had celebrated
its third birthday.
259
00:11:24,068 --> 00:11:27,275
So, I remember that month
I was in California training.
260
00:11:27,379 --> 00:11:31,000
And the whole sky was pink.
261
00:11:31,103 --> 00:11:35,344
And it just felt like being
in an Instagram filter.
262
00:11:35,448 --> 00:11:37,965
You know, and then the cab
263
00:11:38,068 --> 00:11:41,482
was going down places
like Valencia and Dogpatch,
264
00:11:41,586 --> 00:11:43,551
and those were names
of filters,
265
00:11:43,655 --> 00:11:44,586
you know, on Instagram.
266
00:11:44,689 --> 00:11:47,793
So, I really felt like
I'd somehow descended into,
267
00:11:47,896 --> 00:11:50,379
you know,
the world of Instagram.
268
00:11:52,275 --> 00:11:55,724
- At the time, we honestly
didn't really have a clue
269
00:11:55,827 --> 00:11:57,827
how big it was,
how much it was growing.
270
00:11:57,931 --> 00:11:59,827
I would go to many concerts.
271
00:11:59,931 --> 00:12:01,827
As people were taking photos
272
00:12:01,931 --> 00:12:03,827
of their time at the show,
273
00:12:03,931 --> 00:12:06,551
I would look over and I would
see on their phone,
274
00:12:06,655 --> 00:12:09,379
"Oh, like, that's Instagram,
that's the filter screen."
275
00:12:09,482 --> 00:12:13,758
- So, I was friends with
the creators of Instagram.
276
00:12:13,862 --> 00:12:19,034
I ended up being invited
to a beta of this product.
277
00:12:19,137 --> 00:12:21,793
We were certainly
plenty naive,
278
00:12:21,896 --> 00:12:23,655
and I think we had ideas
279
00:12:23,758 --> 00:12:25,241
about the world
and about how technology
280
00:12:25,344 --> 00:12:26,517
could improve the world.
281
00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:27,482
Priorities were basically,
like,
282
00:12:27,586 --> 00:12:29,172
make a very simple app
283
00:12:29,275 --> 00:12:32,172
whose main goal is to help
you share a photo,
284
00:12:32,275 --> 00:12:33,655
make it look beautiful.
285
00:12:33,758 --> 00:12:35,413
It did create
this very nice feedback loop
286
00:12:35,517 --> 00:12:36,413
people really enjoyed.
287
00:12:36,517 --> 00:12:37,896
I post the photo,
I get these likes.
288
00:12:38,758 --> 00:12:39,896
- My name is Cole Rise,
289
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,413
and I designed
the original icon
290
00:12:42,517 --> 00:12:44,724
and seven of the filters.
291
00:12:44,827 --> 00:12:47,862
Instagram's brand
was about covering
292
00:12:47,965 --> 00:12:50,172
how bad the cameras were
in the phones of the day.
293
00:12:50,275 --> 00:12:52,931
They were very pixely.
294
00:12:53,034 --> 00:12:55,379
So how do you make
a great photo?
295
00:12:55,482 --> 00:12:57,172
You put a nice,
heavy filter on it
296
00:12:57,275 --> 00:12:58,206
that makes it something else.
297
00:12:58,310 --> 00:13:00,620
It's not supposed to be
true to life.
298
00:13:00,724 --> 00:13:01,931
There was probably, like,
299
00:13:02,034 --> 00:13:04,965
a certain je ne sais quoi
about Instagram
300
00:13:05,068 --> 00:13:06,517
that we would call, like,
301
00:13:06,620 --> 00:13:08,103
the Instagrammy-ness.
302
00:13:08,206 --> 00:13:11,206
The vibe that we had tried
to cultivate and create
303
00:13:11,310 --> 00:13:12,206
on the community team.
304
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:13,931
I found these postcards.
305
00:13:14,034 --> 00:13:15,103
These are, like...
306
00:13:16,551 --> 00:13:18,206
..the brand values that
we had at the time.
307
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:19,931
Simplicity matters,
308
00:13:20,034 --> 00:13:23,586
and inspire creativity,
309
00:13:23,689 --> 00:13:26,689
and, my favourite,
310
00:13:26,793 --> 00:13:28,310
community first.
311
00:13:28,413 --> 00:13:31,137
I still say that a lot today,
actually.
312
00:13:31,241 --> 00:13:34,000
- I think so many
of the essence
313
00:13:34,103 --> 00:13:36,379
of how we built the product
were around, like,
314
00:13:36,482 --> 00:13:38,137
what's going to be good
for a person?
315
00:13:38,241 --> 00:13:39,655
Like, what's the next
most important thing
316
00:13:39,758 --> 00:13:40,758
that we can work on
317
00:13:40,862 --> 00:13:43,482
that's going to make
someone's life better?
318
00:13:43,586 --> 00:13:46,724
The biggest team, actually,
at least in my mind,
319
00:13:46,827 --> 00:13:47,793
was the community team,
320
00:13:47,896 --> 00:13:50,137
who were all focused
on looking
321
00:13:50,241 --> 00:13:51,551
at what's happening
on Instagram,
322
00:13:51,655 --> 00:13:53,241
engaging with active users,
323
00:13:53,344 --> 00:13:54,551
starting conversations,
324
00:13:54,655 --> 00:13:55,827
highlighting interesting
users,
325
00:13:55,931 --> 00:13:57,793
picking who was featured
and things like that.
326
00:13:57,896 --> 00:13:59,344
We had a number
of different ways
327
00:13:59,448 --> 00:14:01,275
that we would feature people.
328
00:14:01,379 --> 00:14:03,034
The main Instagram account,
329
00:14:03,137 --> 00:14:05,379
which was just @Instagram.
330
00:14:05,482 --> 00:14:06,551
It was, like,
the most followed account
331
00:14:06,655 --> 00:14:07,655
in the world.
332
00:14:07,758 --> 00:14:09,000
I think it still
has a bigger circulation
333
00:14:09,103 --> 00:14:10,034
than 'The New York Times'.
334
00:14:10,137 --> 00:14:13,379
Like, it was a hugely kind of
impactful real estate
335
00:14:13,482 --> 00:14:15,206
to share someone's story.
336
00:14:15,310 --> 00:14:16,517
And whenever we would share
337
00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:17,724
someone's story on there,
338
00:14:17,827 --> 00:14:19,137
quite often, you would see
339
00:14:19,241 --> 00:14:20,551
their kind of follower count
340
00:14:20,655 --> 00:14:23,965
and everything blow up
for them.
341
00:14:24,068 --> 00:14:26,241
It felt kind of worrying,
you know,
342
00:14:26,344 --> 00:14:30,000
to kind of be making those
editorial decisions.
343
00:14:30,103 --> 00:14:32,620
Partly because of the
huge influence and impact
344
00:14:32,724 --> 00:14:34,206
it could have
on someone's life.
345
00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:36,758
I think we knew we were on,
like,
346
00:14:36,862 --> 00:14:39,068
the cusp of something big
that was happening
347
00:14:39,172 --> 00:14:42,068
and powerful and impactful.
348
00:14:42,172 --> 00:14:45,379
I don't think we were aware,
on the Community Team,
349
00:14:45,482 --> 00:14:49,068
of how big it was gonna get.
350
00:14:49,172 --> 00:14:52,275
- This world that Instagram
had created,
351
00:14:52,379 --> 00:14:55,000
where you could present
your life as more beautiful
352
00:14:55,103 --> 00:14:56,551
and interesting than
it actually was.
353
00:14:56,655 --> 00:14:59,000
Where you could see into
354
00:14:59,103 --> 00:15:02,482
all these really interesting
lives and careers,
355
00:15:02,586 --> 00:15:06,034
and places in the world,
from your phone.
356
00:15:06,137 --> 00:15:08,758
That was so exciting
357
00:15:08,862 --> 00:15:11,344
that it grew so quickly
358
00:15:11,448 --> 00:15:13,586
and caught the attention
of Mark Zuckerberg.
359
00:15:22,241 --> 00:15:23,758
Zuckerberg
wanted to make sure
360
00:15:23,862 --> 00:15:25,413
that he got to Instagram
361
00:15:25,517 --> 00:15:27,448
before
any of his competitors did
362
00:15:27,551 --> 00:15:31,344
and that he made sure
that they joined Facebook.
363
00:15:31,448 --> 00:15:33,793
So he offered them
a billion dollars,
364
00:15:33,896 --> 00:15:36,068
which is more than anyone
had ever paid
365
00:15:36,172 --> 00:15:38,310
for a mobile app before.
366
00:15:38,413 --> 00:15:40,172
- Kevin opens
the conversation and says,
367
00:15:40,275 --> 00:15:42,034
"You know, we've been talking
to Facebook
368
00:15:42,137 --> 00:15:43,689
"over the last few days,
369
00:15:43,793 --> 00:15:46,068
"and they made an offer
to acquire us".
370
00:15:46,172 --> 00:15:48,551
At this moment I think
what goes through my head
371
00:15:48,655 --> 00:15:49,827
and what goes through
372
00:15:49,931 --> 00:15:51,034
everyone else's head,
I believe,
373
00:15:51,137 --> 00:15:52,724
is the next sentence will be,
374
00:15:52,827 --> 00:15:54,310
"And we rejected them".
375
00:15:54,413 --> 00:15:56,206
And then the very next
thing Kevin says is,
376
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:58,482
"and we accepted
and we signed".
377
00:15:58,586 --> 00:15:59,724
I remember walking back
378
00:15:59,827 --> 00:16:02,379
from that little circle
to our desks again
379
00:16:02,482 --> 00:16:03,965
next to one of my co-workers,
380
00:16:04,068 --> 00:16:05,448
and he just whispers to me,
381
00:16:05,551 --> 00:16:07,655
"This is not how I thought
it was going to end".
382
00:16:07,758 --> 00:16:10,965
And I think
that's what everyone felt.
383
00:16:12,758 --> 00:16:15,448
This idea that, like,
this ride that we're on,
384
00:16:15,551 --> 00:16:17,034
this roller coaster
of being in control
385
00:16:17,137 --> 00:16:18,379
of our own destiny,
386
00:16:18,482 --> 00:16:20,758
growing a small little thing
387
00:16:20,862 --> 00:16:22,344
that we've been
working on our own
388
00:16:22,448 --> 00:16:23,793
was like suddenly over.
389
00:16:23,896 --> 00:16:25,551
Instagram essentially
had to decide,
390
00:16:25,655 --> 00:16:27,965
do we want to go up
against Facebook,
391
00:16:28,068 --> 00:16:29,448
which is this behemoth?
392
00:16:29,551 --> 00:16:32,034
Or is this our time to, one,
393
00:16:32,137 --> 00:16:33,689
get a pretty significant
payout,
394
00:16:33,793 --> 00:16:35,827
and be able to build upon
395
00:16:35,931 --> 00:16:38,896
Facebook's existing
infrastructure, platform,
396
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,137
and then cater to all
of Facebook's users.
397
00:16:41,241 --> 00:16:43,620
But at the time
it was shocking.
398
00:16:43,724 --> 00:16:45,310
It definitely gave me pause
399
00:16:45,413 --> 00:16:47,068
and a moment to be like,
uh...
400
00:16:47,172 --> 00:16:48,344
I don't know
if this is ultimately
401
00:16:48,448 --> 00:16:51,517
going to be the best thing
for this community.
402
00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:54,275
Facebook has tried
over and over and over
403
00:16:54,379 --> 00:16:57,517
to make a product that
will appeal to young people.
404
00:16:57,620 --> 00:17:00,137
They had these labs
that were turning out
405
00:17:00,241 --> 00:17:03,448
new kinds of apps to possibly
create a new hit.
406
00:17:03,551 --> 00:17:05,413
Nothing really worked.
407
00:17:05,517 --> 00:17:07,068
Their main avenue
408
00:17:07,172 --> 00:17:09,310
into the youth audience
is Instagram
409
00:17:09,413 --> 00:17:11,172
and whatever Instagram
can create,
410
00:17:11,275 --> 00:17:14,655
and in order for Facebook
to stay relevant,
411
00:17:14,758 --> 00:17:20,448
Instagram needs to maintain
that...that cache with youth.
412
00:17:20,551 --> 00:17:22,379
There was this
really burning question
413
00:17:22,482 --> 00:17:24,620
from folks
on the Facebook side,
414
00:17:24,724 --> 00:17:26,586
to understand our own growth
415
00:17:26,689 --> 00:17:28,379
in a way that we had
never really been
416
00:17:28,482 --> 00:17:30,793
as eager about
or as specific about.
417
00:17:30,896 --> 00:17:32,551
You know, previously,
success for us meant
418
00:17:32,655 --> 00:17:34,517
that we built a good product,
that, like,
419
00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:37,931
the things we worked on
were doing really well,
420
00:17:38,034 --> 00:17:40,310
that, like, people using them
felt good about them.
421
00:17:40,413 --> 00:17:41,965
Shifting from that mindset
422
00:17:42,068 --> 00:17:45,793
to something where success
is just measured by numbers
423
00:17:45,896 --> 00:17:47,068
in a very plain way.
424
00:17:47,172 --> 00:17:49,689
Over time, that became
much more and more
425
00:17:49,793 --> 00:17:52,275
part of the way things
were done,
426
00:17:52,379 --> 00:17:54,551
things were evaluated,
things were designed.
427
00:18:00,448 --> 00:18:02,965
I definitely noticed a change
428
00:18:03,068 --> 00:18:04,793
when we launched ads,
429
00:18:04,896 --> 00:18:07,965
and when we started
to onboard brands
430
00:18:08,068 --> 00:18:09,275
onto the platform.
431
00:18:09,379 --> 00:18:10,551
Now, looking back,
432
00:18:10,655 --> 00:18:13,586
what I've seen
or what I've realised
433
00:18:13,689 --> 00:18:16,586
is with the launch of ads
and brands on the platform,
434
00:18:16,689 --> 00:18:18,551
this kind of tension
or friction
435
00:18:18,655 --> 00:18:20,517
was created between brands
436
00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:22,758
that were almost trying
to act like individuals,
437
00:18:22,862 --> 00:18:26,724
and individuals that then
start to act like brands.
438
00:18:33,344 --> 00:18:35,000
- When I first started
doing Instagram,
439
00:18:35,103 --> 00:18:36,758
there was no such thing
as influencing.
440
00:18:36,862 --> 00:18:39,068
I come from
a modelling background.
441
00:18:39,172 --> 00:18:41,896
A few years later than that
Instagram came about.
442
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,551
And obviously
you like to take pictures,
443
00:18:43,655 --> 00:18:44,586
it's a picture app.
444
00:18:44,689 --> 00:18:45,931
So, from my modelling
history, I was like,
445
00:18:46,034 --> 00:18:47,103
OK, great, this is for me.
446
00:18:47,206 --> 00:18:49,172
I was very consistent
with Instagram
447
00:18:49,275 --> 00:18:50,379
and I enjoyed it.
448
00:18:50,482 --> 00:18:52,965
Like, you get free meals,
you get to go to restaurants.
449
00:18:53,068 --> 00:18:56,068
I've even got holidays
for promo as they call it.
450
00:18:56,172 --> 00:18:58,448
There's so many Instagram
stylists.
451
00:18:58,551 --> 00:19:00,000
I feel like
unless girls see you working
452
00:19:00,103 --> 00:19:01,172
with a massive influencer...
453
00:19:01,275 --> 00:19:02,275
Don't wanna work with you.
454
00:19:02,379 --> 00:19:03,620
..they don't wanna work
with you
455
00:19:03,724 --> 00:19:05,103
or they don't want
to book your services.
456
00:19:05,206 --> 00:19:06,517
They just want to
go who's popping
457
00:19:06,620 --> 00:19:07,724
because they've gone there.
458
00:19:07,827 --> 00:19:08,827
- I've got some friends
that...
459
00:19:08,931 --> 00:19:10,793
They will go to all these
Instagram people,
460
00:19:10,896 --> 00:19:12,586
and then when the people
mess up their hair,
461
00:19:12,689 --> 00:19:13,724
they will come back to me.
462
00:19:13,827 --> 00:19:14,827
I'm like,
"I'm not doing your hair!"
463
00:19:14,931 --> 00:19:15,827
You better just...
464
00:19:15,931 --> 00:19:17,206
You know
your friend does hair
465
00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:18,758
why didn't you go and meet
your friend before?
466
00:19:18,862 --> 00:19:19,793
Why are you coming to me?
467
00:19:19,896 --> 00:19:20,965
OK, so first of all,
468
00:19:21,068 --> 00:19:23,275
I would like to say
Instagram World is fake.
469
00:19:24,620 --> 00:19:26,275
Instagram's kind of
like a facade.
470
00:19:26,379 --> 00:19:30,344
It's kind of like
made the highlife
471
00:19:30,448 --> 00:19:32,620
look so easily accessible.
472
00:19:32,724 --> 00:19:34,724
At 21,
I'm getting on a private jet.
473
00:19:34,827 --> 00:19:37,448
It's not like that at all.
474
00:19:37,551 --> 00:19:39,689
I remember when people
started getting paid to post,
475
00:19:39,793 --> 00:19:41,310
and that idea
476
00:19:41,413 --> 00:19:44,172
quickly makes what you post
a bit artificial,
477
00:19:44,275 --> 00:19:47,000
where some people are doing,
like, full-on BMW ads
478
00:19:47,103 --> 00:19:49,758
and it's not genuine
to who they are as a person
479
00:19:49,862 --> 00:19:51,103
because I know that person.
480
00:19:51,206 --> 00:19:53,172
They don't drive a BMW.
481
00:19:53,275 --> 00:19:55,482
The core of Instagram,
as I remember,
482
00:19:55,586 --> 00:19:57,827
it was just,
"Here's what's happening."
483
00:19:57,931 --> 00:19:59,965
But if what's happening
is an ad
484
00:20:00,068 --> 00:20:03,137
then there's
an artificiality to it.
485
00:20:05,344 --> 00:20:06,965
Look at bloody COVID-19,
486
00:20:07,068 --> 00:20:09,448
they was paying influencers
to...
487
00:20:09,551 --> 00:20:11,724
Yeah, to say that
they're doing it.
488
00:20:11,827 --> 00:20:12,827
They was paying influencers
489
00:20:12,931 --> 00:20:14,241
to promote the vaccine.
490
00:20:14,344 --> 00:20:15,724
What?
491
00:20:15,827 --> 00:20:17,551
Instagram followers
are very important,
492
00:20:17,655 --> 00:20:19,758
especially if you want to be
paid as an influencer.
493
00:20:19,862 --> 00:20:25,655
My long-term goal for how
many followers I want
494
00:20:25,758 --> 00:20:27,137
is probably a billion.
495
00:20:27,241 --> 00:20:28,827
I want a billion followers.
496
00:20:28,931 --> 00:20:31,517
- Now follower counts
have, like,
497
00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:33,344
a certain social currency,
498
00:20:33,448 --> 00:20:36,448
as if it's some kind of
golden ticket
499
00:20:36,551 --> 00:20:39,413
to unlocking the universe.
500
00:20:39,517 --> 00:20:41,068
The more followers we get,
501
00:20:41,172 --> 00:20:43,448
the more comments we get,
the better.
502
00:20:43,551 --> 00:20:45,827
We have also
become growth obsessed,
503
00:20:45,931 --> 00:20:48,827
and it's thanks to Facebook
and Instagram
504
00:20:48,931 --> 00:20:52,000
in the way that they have
let us measure ourselves
505
00:20:52,103 --> 00:20:54,758
that we think that way.
506
00:20:56,241 --> 00:20:58,896
- I decided to get
fake followers.
507
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,482
I can't remember
what the package was.
508
00:21:00,586 --> 00:21:01,689
It wasn't even that much.
509
00:21:01,793 --> 00:21:03,862
I think I paid, like...
Maybe, like, £100.
510
00:21:03,965 --> 00:21:05,413
And it basically was, like,
511
00:21:05,517 --> 00:21:08,137
I got 3,000 likes
on each picture,
512
00:21:08,241 --> 00:21:10,862
and then I think I gained,
like, 10,000 followers,
513
00:21:10,965 --> 00:21:13,206
because it did take me from,
like, 10,000 to 20,000.
514
00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:14,206
But then after that,
515
00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:16,448
it was like why are
all my followers Russian
516
00:21:16,551 --> 00:21:19,034
and why are all these
comments in Russian?
517
00:21:19,137 --> 00:21:20,689
Like, what's going on?
518
00:21:20,793 --> 00:21:22,586
We need to get cracking,
519
00:21:22,689 --> 00:21:24,551
we've got, like, literally
10 minutes - let's go.
520
00:21:31,068 --> 00:21:33,103
- It's not very hard
to get fake followers,
521
00:21:33,206 --> 00:21:35,655
fake likes, etcetera,
on Instagram.
522
00:21:35,758 --> 00:21:37,241
You just, you just need
an internet connection
523
00:21:37,344 --> 00:21:38,689
and a credit card.
524
00:21:38,793 --> 00:21:39,896
I'm Sophie Zhang,
525
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,827
or Zhang Sui Feng
in Mandarin.
526
00:21:41,931 --> 00:21:43,620
I was a data scientist
at Facebook
527
00:21:43,724 --> 00:21:44,793
on what's called
528
00:21:44,896 --> 00:21:45,965
the fake engagement team.
529
00:21:46,068 --> 00:21:48,586
I also conducted work
on Instagram.
530
00:21:50,275 --> 00:21:53,206
Back in late 2019
and early 2020
531
00:21:53,310 --> 00:21:55,068
roughly ten percent
of follows
532
00:21:55,172 --> 00:21:56,931
on Instagram were fake.
533
00:21:57,034 --> 00:21:59,241
This is a very
rough estimate,
534
00:21:59,344 --> 00:22:01,551
but considerably higher
than Facebook.
535
00:22:01,655 --> 00:22:04,034
It creates an environment
of constant doubt
536
00:22:04,137 --> 00:22:06,448
and insecurity
and uncertainty.
537
00:22:08,896 --> 00:22:10,034
- I had to go and block
538
00:22:10,137 --> 00:22:11,827
all these
fake Russian accounts.
539
00:22:11,931 --> 00:22:13,862
Every time they commented
I had to, like, block them.
540
00:22:13,965 --> 00:22:17,034
Lucky I did that
because after I did that,
541
00:22:17,137 --> 00:22:18,379
Instagram had this thing
542
00:22:18,482 --> 00:22:20,034
where they started
shutting down accounts
543
00:22:20,137 --> 00:22:21,620
that had fake followers.
544
00:22:21,724 --> 00:22:23,655
So, you would see, like,
celebrities, for instance.
545
00:22:23,758 --> 00:22:24,724
One of my friends,
546
00:22:24,827 --> 00:22:26,137
their Instagram account
was just, like,
547
00:22:26,241 --> 00:22:27,655
gone the next day,
I was like, what?
548
00:22:27,758 --> 00:22:29,896
I was like, bro,
where's your account?
549
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,310
Let's just do one more.
550
00:22:31,413 --> 00:22:32,758
And he was like,
"Oh, I got hacked",
551
00:22:32,862 --> 00:22:33,758
and everyone knew, no,
552
00:22:33,862 --> 00:22:34,862
Instagram's going around
553
00:22:34,965 --> 00:22:35,965
shutting around
fake accounts.
554
00:22:36,068 --> 00:22:37,137
So that was quite
embarrassing.
555
00:22:37,241 --> 00:22:38,137
But luckily for me,
556
00:22:38,241 --> 00:22:39,551
I'd got rid of my bots
by then.
557
00:22:39,655 --> 00:22:42,758
Quite funny.
558
00:22:42,862 --> 00:22:43,896
Girl, go and get changed.
559
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,241
- Go.
- Thank you
560
00:22:46,551 --> 00:22:47,586
I was pretty naive,
561
00:22:47,689 --> 00:22:49,413
because I had no clue
what working for Facebook
562
00:22:49,517 --> 00:22:50,448
would be like.
563
00:22:50,551 --> 00:22:51,586
There is often
a conflict between
564
00:22:51,689 --> 00:22:53,551
the product side
of companies,
565
00:22:53,655 --> 00:22:55,689
whose goal
is to grow the company,
566
00:22:55,793 --> 00:22:57,482
and the integrity side
of companies
567
00:22:57,586 --> 00:22:59,965
whose goal is to protect
the company from harm.
568
00:23:00,068 --> 00:23:01,793
Instagram was
more aggressively focused
569
00:23:01,896 --> 00:23:03,482
on growing than Facebook.
570
00:23:03,586 --> 00:23:06,551
Because Instagram
has more room to grow.
571
00:23:06,655 --> 00:23:08,310
This created a dynamic
572
00:23:08,413 --> 00:23:10,586
in which there
was more resistance
573
00:23:10,689 --> 00:23:12,724
to integrity measures
on Instagram
574
00:23:12,827 --> 00:23:15,655
than I personally saw
on Facebook.
575
00:23:15,758 --> 00:23:18,689
Facebook is a public company,
Instagram is part of it,
576
00:23:18,793 --> 00:23:22,413
and Instagram needs to be the
growth engine for Facebook -
577
00:23:22,517 --> 00:23:25,103
to bring in as many
young people as they can.
578
00:23:25,206 --> 00:23:27,310
And it's becoming more
and more important,
579
00:23:27,413 --> 00:23:30,655
a bigger slice of that
advertising every year.
580
00:23:40,172 --> 00:23:41,965
When Instagram
introduced advertising,
581
00:23:42,068 --> 00:23:43,793
it was obviously better
for people
582
00:23:43,896 --> 00:23:45,965
to spend more time
in the app,
583
00:23:46,068 --> 00:23:48,931
because more time in the app
means you see more ads.
584
00:23:49,034 --> 00:23:51,793
And the single best way
to get you to spend
585
00:23:51,896 --> 00:23:52,827
more time in the app
586
00:23:52,931 --> 00:23:54,413
is to make your feed
more interesting.
587
00:23:54,517 --> 00:23:56,620
One of the kind of trademarks
of Instagram
588
00:23:56,724 --> 00:23:59,068
when I first joined
was that your feed
589
00:23:59,172 --> 00:24:00,896
would be
in chronological order.
590
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,275
But as the platform
became more saturated,
591
00:24:04,379 --> 00:24:06,448
what we were finding was
that more and more people
592
00:24:06,551 --> 00:24:08,655
weren't able to actually see
a lot of the content
593
00:24:08,758 --> 00:24:10,206
that they followed.
594
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:13,551
It became apparent
that it would make more sense
595
00:24:13,655 --> 00:24:16,586
and actually help users more
to order their feed.
596
00:24:16,689 --> 00:24:17,896
So that was rolled out.
597
00:24:21,241 --> 00:24:24,620
- There was a team
of machine learning engineers
598
00:24:24,724 --> 00:24:28,586
who would evaluate
the algorithm,
599
00:24:28,689 --> 00:24:31,310
and they would compare these
through A/B tests
600
00:24:31,413 --> 00:24:33,689
to see
which was performing better.
601
00:24:33,793 --> 00:24:36,000
There was,
amongst some users,
602
00:24:36,103 --> 00:24:38,448
a negative perception
of this.
603
00:24:38,551 --> 00:24:41,413
However,
if you looked at the metrics,
604
00:24:41,517 --> 00:24:42,655
like our engagement metrics,
605
00:24:42,758 --> 00:24:44,103
like, those were increasing.
606
00:24:44,206 --> 00:24:46,586
Now you can kind of
turn on any time
607
00:24:46,689 --> 00:24:47,655
and get something different,
608
00:24:47,758 --> 00:24:50,103
which I think for your brain,
it's just this, like, candy
609
00:24:50,206 --> 00:24:52,068
that it can't help
but go back for.
610
00:24:52,172 --> 00:24:53,965
It looks like
a logical decision now
611
00:24:54,068 --> 00:24:55,689
looking back, as to like
why Instagram did it
612
00:24:55,793 --> 00:24:56,862
as a business or, like,
613
00:24:56,965 --> 00:24:58,862
why it at the time
it looked good for users.
614
00:24:58,965 --> 00:25:00,758
But it just completely
changed obviously, like,
615
00:25:00,862 --> 00:25:01,862
how it's being used
616
00:25:01,965 --> 00:25:03,275
and what people
get out of it.
617
00:25:03,379 --> 00:25:06,275
And I think
that's impossible to reverse.
618
00:25:06,379 --> 00:25:07,689
There's a vast array
of content
619
00:25:07,793 --> 00:25:09,551
that you may never have
discovered otherwise,
620
00:25:09,655 --> 00:25:11,482
unless the algorithm
recognises
621
00:25:11,586 --> 00:25:13,137
something about
your behaviour.
622
00:25:13,241 --> 00:25:14,137
But at the same time,
623
00:25:14,241 --> 00:25:16,068
depending on the nature
of your interests,
624
00:25:16,172 --> 00:25:17,689
the things that
you might get shown
625
00:25:17,793 --> 00:25:19,586
may or may not lead you
down certain paths.
626
00:25:19,689 --> 00:25:20,862
That can lead to some,
I think,
627
00:25:20,965 --> 00:25:23,586
both, like,
scary places and also ones
628
00:25:23,689 --> 00:25:26,068
that are not super,
I guess, healthy.
629
00:25:32,137 --> 00:25:34,724
- I'm Abby
and I'm 17-years-old.
630
00:25:34,827 --> 00:25:37,000
I live with my mum
and my sister,
631
00:25:37,103 --> 00:25:38,896
and all my dogs.
632
00:25:41,551 --> 00:25:42,896
A good four years,
633
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,655
I've been associated with
634
00:25:44,758 --> 00:25:47,551
these anti-recovery
Instagram communities.
635
00:25:48,758 --> 00:25:50,689
I probably wouldn't have
known what self-harm was
636
00:25:50,793 --> 00:25:52,862
if I didn't look on them
accounts.
637
00:25:58,862 --> 00:26:00,931
I knew how long
I had to stay under water
638
00:26:01,034 --> 00:26:02,172
to drown myself.
639
00:26:02,275 --> 00:26:04,620
I knew how many paracetamol
640
00:26:04,724 --> 00:26:06,206
I'd have to take
to kill myself.
641
00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:08,000
I knew how many minutes
you'd have to have something
642
00:26:08,103 --> 00:26:11,000
around your neck
to...ligature.
643
00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:16,172
You'd get added into groups
644
00:26:16,275 --> 00:26:19,275
and people would tell us
to go and kill myself,
645
00:26:19,379 --> 00:26:21,310
and they'd want to do it
together.
646
00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:23,655
And they would want to come
on a video call
647
00:26:23,758 --> 00:26:24,758
to self-harm together,
648
00:26:24,862 --> 00:26:28,482
which is just...corrupt.
649
00:26:31,034 --> 00:26:33,517
The bullying started,
like, year 7, year 8.
650
00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:35,172
I was bullied all the way
through school
651
00:26:35,275 --> 00:26:36,413
for five years.
652
00:26:36,517 --> 00:26:37,793
So when I was 14,
653
00:26:37,896 --> 00:26:39,620
my school advised that
I study at home,
654
00:26:39,724 --> 00:26:42,586
due to my mental health
deteriorating.
655
00:26:42,689 --> 00:26:45,000
I had so much free time,
like,
656
00:26:45,103 --> 00:26:47,586
I was missing out
six hours a day on education.
657
00:26:47,689 --> 00:26:51,206
So sitting in front
of your phone
658
00:26:51,310 --> 00:26:54,310
for hours and hours a day,
659
00:26:54,413 --> 00:26:56,172
I would make friends
on Instagram.
660
00:26:58,241 --> 00:26:59,344
There'd be these,
like, accounts.
661
00:26:59,448 --> 00:27:01,310
They'd put a sad quote
and they would put it in
662
00:27:01,413 --> 00:27:04,172
with like sad-toned music.
663
00:27:04,275 --> 00:27:06,724
And they have, like,
writing on it
664
00:27:06,827 --> 00:27:07,931
about, like,
how you're feeling.
665
00:27:08,034 --> 00:27:09,758
So, then, you can relate
to some of that,
666
00:27:09,862 --> 00:27:11,344
so you like it and then...
667
00:27:11,448 --> 00:27:12,379
If you let them,
668
00:27:12,482 --> 00:27:14,034
then people often follow you
if you like them.
669
00:27:14,137 --> 00:27:15,551
And then you follow them.
670
00:27:15,655 --> 00:27:18,448
And then you get sucked
into that community.
671
00:27:23,551 --> 00:27:24,724
- The kinds
of problematic content
672
00:27:24,827 --> 00:27:27,103
I remember being surprised by
673
00:27:27,206 --> 00:27:29,586
were actually around things
like self-harm.
674
00:27:29,689 --> 00:27:31,068
Enough for you to be like,
oh, actually,
675
00:27:31,172 --> 00:27:32,206
people are using Instagram
676
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:34,068
in ways that, like,
aren't, you know,
677
00:27:34,172 --> 00:27:35,448
the sort of, like,
nice vision
678
00:27:35,551 --> 00:27:37,758
that we have for what it
could be and should be.
679
00:27:37,862 --> 00:27:39,413
I mean, just from
the very earliest days
680
00:27:39,517 --> 00:27:40,793
there was a way to report
681
00:27:40,896 --> 00:27:42,137
offensive content
in the app.
682
00:27:42,241 --> 00:27:43,517
You could just tap any photo
and say,
683
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:44,551
"Hey, I don't like this,
684
00:27:44,655 --> 00:27:45,758
"this is not...this
is not good."
685
00:27:45,862 --> 00:27:47,862
And then we would actually
have to review it.
686
00:27:47,965 --> 00:27:49,310
We were actually
a really tiny team.
687
00:27:49,413 --> 00:27:50,896
We would have to, like,
look at the photos,
688
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,068
which was never fun,
block accounts.
689
00:27:53,172 --> 00:27:55,206
So there was a little bit
of hunting through
690
00:27:55,310 --> 00:27:56,931
and just like being proactive
and reactive
691
00:27:57,034 --> 00:27:58,413
to the stuff that
was happening.
692
00:28:02,344 --> 00:28:03,586
Dealing with
problematic content
693
00:28:03,689 --> 00:28:05,310
was something that Facebook
694
00:28:05,413 --> 00:28:07,793
was able to help
quite a bit with, actually.
695
00:28:07,896 --> 00:28:08,931
They've been running,
you know,
696
00:28:09,034 --> 00:28:10,482
a huge platform
for many more years,
697
00:28:10,586 --> 00:28:14,000
and have had to learn
and deal with
698
00:28:14,103 --> 00:28:15,379
those problems
in much bigger numbers
699
00:28:15,482 --> 00:28:16,689
than we ever had.
700
00:28:16,793 --> 00:28:20,172
I remember that was actually
one of the big benefits
701
00:28:20,275 --> 00:28:21,862
that, like,
we saw looking at Facebook.
702
00:28:21,965 --> 00:28:23,137
Being, like, "Oh, wow."
703
00:28:23,241 --> 00:28:24,275
Like, they can actually
704
00:28:24,379 --> 00:28:25,931
really take this off
our shoulders.
705
00:28:26,034 --> 00:28:29,275
By offloading all of that
community moderation
706
00:28:29,379 --> 00:28:30,689
to Facebook,
707
00:28:30,793 --> 00:28:32,862
Instagram detached themselves
708
00:28:32,965 --> 00:28:35,000
from one of the most
important aspects
709
00:28:35,103 --> 00:28:38,206
of making sure that
their platform was healthy.
710
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:39,413
Facebook's priority
711
00:28:39,517 --> 00:28:41,310
is to have as few humans
712
00:28:41,413 --> 00:28:43,517
involved in that process
as possible.
713
00:28:43,620 --> 00:28:45,724
And to prioritise the issues
714
00:28:45,827 --> 00:28:48,172
that are getting the most
public attention,
715
00:28:48,275 --> 00:28:50,655
which are the issues mostly
facing Facebook,
716
00:28:50,758 --> 00:28:52,068
not the issues
facing Instagram.
717
00:28:52,172 --> 00:28:54,379
Content moderation happens
718
00:28:54,482 --> 00:28:56,034
in a combination
of different ways.
719
00:28:56,137 --> 00:28:59,448
Some content moderation is
what's called proactive,
720
00:28:59,551 --> 00:29:03,068
where when content gets
posted to the platform,
721
00:29:03,172 --> 00:29:04,724
it gets flagged by an
algorithm that says,
722
00:29:04,827 --> 00:29:06,000
hey, this looks suspicious.
723
00:29:06,103 --> 00:29:08,517
Either it's going to be
removed from the platform
724
00:29:08,620 --> 00:29:09,931
or it'll be sent, perhaps,
725
00:29:10,034 --> 00:29:12,310
to some human
to review it and say,
726
00:29:12,413 --> 00:29:13,379
"Is this actually
a problem?"
727
00:29:13,482 --> 00:29:15,862
But algorithms are
not perfect, right?
728
00:29:15,965 --> 00:29:19,137
Algorithms often struggle
to take into account
729
00:29:19,241 --> 00:29:20,827
social nuances
that might determine
730
00:29:20,931 --> 00:29:22,413
whether something
is problematic or not.
731
00:29:22,517 --> 00:29:27,206
Even if you know your AI
for detecting harmful content
732
00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:28,862
is 99 percent accurate,
733
00:29:28,965 --> 00:29:31,034
if people are posting
a million bad things a day,
734
00:29:31,137 --> 00:29:32,517
which is probably
a vast underestimate,
735
00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:34,655
getting one percent
of them wrong
736
00:29:34,758 --> 00:29:36,689
means 10,000 pieces
of harmful content
737
00:29:36,793 --> 00:29:38,103
are coming through
the platform every day.
738
00:29:38,206 --> 00:29:40,275
And people are going to be
exposed to that.
739
00:29:42,896 --> 00:29:44,137
I'm just packing my things
740
00:29:44,241 --> 00:29:47,068
to go back to placement.
741
00:29:47,172 --> 00:29:49,241
I stay at home on
the weekend.
742
00:29:49,344 --> 00:29:52,241
And then I stay there
for the rest of the week
743
00:29:52,344 --> 00:29:53,793
with like two staff,
744
00:29:53,896 --> 00:29:55,793
'cause I've been poorly.
745
00:29:55,896 --> 00:29:58,379
So I've got their support
through the week.
746
00:30:04,931 --> 00:30:06,379
End of year 10, year 11,
747
00:30:06,482 --> 00:30:08,482
I started really wanting
to hurt myself, and I would.
748
00:30:08,586 --> 00:30:11,517
But I think apart from that,
then,
749
00:30:11,620 --> 00:30:13,896
like, before then
I didn't really want to,
750
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,275
and I was just doing it
because on Instagram
751
00:30:17,379 --> 00:30:18,896
it's glamourised.
752
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,862
And it's meant to be, like,
people make it look good.
753
00:30:20,965 --> 00:30:23,137
Like everything on
Instagram's glamourised,
754
00:30:23,241 --> 00:30:24,310
whether
it's the positive life
755
00:30:24,413 --> 00:30:25,896
and going shopping,
756
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,862
having loads of money,
or self-harm.
757
00:30:34,103 --> 00:30:35,068
- We found her phone
758
00:30:35,172 --> 00:30:36,620
and we got her password
and stuff and then
759
00:30:36,724 --> 00:30:39,275
when we looked into it,
saw, like, the full extent
760
00:30:39,379 --> 00:30:40,551
to it and messages.
761
00:30:40,655 --> 00:30:42,620
"Aw, Abby, cut the cake,
cut the cake, go on",
762
00:30:42,724 --> 00:30:44,310
referencing to her self-harm.
763
00:30:44,413 --> 00:30:45,517
It was upsetting.
764
00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:47,448
Especially as well
'cause they're vulnerable.
765
00:30:47,551 --> 00:30:49,034
And they've been through
stuff like that,
766
00:30:49,137 --> 00:30:50,482
and having to see
what the effect
767
00:30:50,586 --> 00:30:51,758
it has on them as well.
768
00:30:51,862 --> 00:30:54,034
'Cause it's not just Abby
who has that.
769
00:30:54,137 --> 00:30:55,862
It's quite a lot
of other people.
770
00:30:57,379 --> 00:30:59,137
- I was quite shocked.
771
00:30:59,241 --> 00:31:01,172
Naively, I was just thinking
772
00:31:01,275 --> 00:31:04,586
that Abby was quite
innocently on things.
773
00:31:05,655 --> 00:31:06,931
- Later on,
I could see, like,
774
00:31:07,034 --> 00:31:08,275
she was just always
on her phone
775
00:31:08,379 --> 00:31:09,517
and when she had her phone
776
00:31:09,620 --> 00:31:11,793
she seemed to be
more heightened.
777
00:31:11,896 --> 00:31:13,896
So that's when we came
to realise, ah,
778
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,551
it's her phone
that's doing it.
779
00:31:18,551 --> 00:31:19,689
- You might have a low day,
780
00:31:19,793 --> 00:31:20,965
a single low day,
781
00:31:21,068 --> 00:31:23,655
and you might go and search
for something on Instagram,
782
00:31:23,758 --> 00:31:25,310
that you might not
otherwise search for.
783
00:31:25,413 --> 00:31:27,758
Suddenly, the algorithm
has a little seed
784
00:31:27,862 --> 00:31:29,310
it can start to grow.
785
00:31:29,413 --> 00:31:33,793
And because that topic
is so intense, you know,
786
00:31:33,896 --> 00:31:36,413
as they show you more of it,
you engage with it more.
787
00:31:36,517 --> 00:31:37,551
A little tiny glimmer
788
00:31:37,655 --> 00:31:40,068
and Instagram will pull you
in that direction.
789
00:31:41,965 --> 00:31:43,931
- A machine learning model
predicts stuff,
790
00:31:44,034 --> 00:31:46,896
and in particular,
they predict behaviour.
791
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:50,448
Like think about
the risk of using prediction
792
00:31:50,551 --> 00:31:52,000
to rank things in terms of
793
00:31:52,103 --> 00:31:54,275
a physical public square.
794
00:31:54,379 --> 00:31:56,655
The whole square is
controlled by one company.
795
00:31:56,758 --> 00:31:58,896
There are thousands
of possible routes
796
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,517
you can take through
that square.
797
00:32:00,620 --> 00:32:02,896
And when you come into
the square,
798
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,310
the first thing that happens
is you're handed
799
00:32:04,413 --> 00:32:05,551
a particular leaflet,
800
00:32:05,655 --> 00:32:07,758
and then how you react
to that leaflet
801
00:32:07,862 --> 00:32:11,034
determines which leaflet
you're handed next.
802
00:32:11,137 --> 00:32:12,965
Once you start down
a particular route
803
00:32:13,068 --> 00:32:14,551
through that square,
804
00:32:14,655 --> 00:32:16,379
the leaflets that you see
are going to be
805
00:32:16,482 --> 00:32:17,689
more and more related
to each other.
806
00:32:17,793 --> 00:32:18,827
And that might be
a good thing.
807
00:32:18,931 --> 00:32:20,827
It might be that
you get shown a cat leaflet
808
00:32:20,931 --> 00:32:22,206
and you really like
that cat leaflet,
809
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:24,344
so then you get shown
more cat leaflets.
810
00:32:24,448 --> 00:32:27,724
But it might also be
a dangerous thing...
811
00:32:28,862 --> 00:32:30,275
..that again,
you find intriguing,
812
00:32:30,379 --> 00:32:32,931
and then you're shown more
of the same leaflet.
813
00:32:33,034 --> 00:32:35,310
And that's the route you then
take through the square.
814
00:32:36,620 --> 00:32:37,862
What that means
815
00:32:37,965 --> 00:32:40,275
is that you have
to have the determination
816
00:32:40,379 --> 00:32:43,586
to give the ranking model
817
00:32:43,689 --> 00:32:47,862
the same signals consistently
over time
818
00:32:47,965 --> 00:32:50,206
that you are not in fact
interested in that thing
819
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:51,620
that you were
interested before.
820
00:32:51,724 --> 00:32:52,655
And it'll test to see
821
00:32:52,758 --> 00:32:54,137
if you're still
not interested in them.
822
00:32:54,241 --> 00:32:55,862
And if you say, actually,
I am interested,
823
00:32:55,965 --> 00:32:58,172
then it'll start showing
that to you again.
824
00:32:58,275 --> 00:33:00,931
Fundamentally
we're habitual beings,
825
00:33:01,034 --> 00:33:03,862
so it takes real will
and resolve
826
00:33:03,965 --> 00:33:06,931
to break
the self-reinforcing dynamic
827
00:33:07,034 --> 00:33:09,344
of using prediction
to rank things.
828
00:33:09,448 --> 00:33:10,620
It's not impossible,
829
00:33:10,724 --> 00:33:14,137
but it asks a real, like,
test of human psychology.
830
00:33:15,620 --> 00:33:18,655
Betty? No.
831
00:33:21,724 --> 00:33:23,862
- Have you got everything?
- Yeah.
832
00:33:23,965 --> 00:33:26,827
- It's hard to manage,
it's a big problem.
833
00:33:26,931 --> 00:33:30,206
Abby can get very distressed,
you know,
834
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:32,241
she's been in hospital
for three months.
835
00:33:32,344 --> 00:33:35,034
And it is very, very hard.
836
00:33:37,137 --> 00:33:38,655
I think there must be a way
837
00:33:38,758 --> 00:33:41,103
that Instagram
can monitor things
838
00:33:41,206 --> 00:33:42,482
that are happening on there.
839
00:33:42,586 --> 00:33:44,310
They must know
840
00:33:44,413 --> 00:33:46,862
and possibly turn
a blind eye...
841
00:33:48,068 --> 00:33:49,448
Have you got all your things?
842
00:33:49,551 --> 00:33:51,137
- Yeah.
- Yeah?
843
00:33:51,241 --> 00:33:52,724
..because it's happening
every day.
844
00:33:52,827 --> 00:33:55,344
It's happening every day
to everyday kids.
845
00:33:55,448 --> 00:33:58,241
And, you know, we are very
lucky Abby is still here.
846
00:33:58,344 --> 00:34:00,000
Give us a hug.
847
00:34:00,103 --> 00:34:01,896
Right. I'll see you
through the week,
848
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,448
- darling.
- Alright.
849
00:34:04,758 --> 00:34:06,137
- It's just the thought
of everything
850
00:34:06,241 --> 00:34:07,965
that she's been through,
you know.
851
00:34:09,413 --> 00:34:11,413
A lot of the people on there,
Abby doesn't even know.
852
00:34:11,517 --> 00:34:13,172
She's never met them.
853
00:34:15,241 --> 00:34:17,310
Yeah, I mean she is,
she's a strong girl,
854
00:34:17,413 --> 00:34:19,482
and she will get there.
855
00:34:24,517 --> 00:34:25,862
- One of the hardest things
856
00:34:25,965 --> 00:34:28,137
when it comes
to moderating Instagram
857
00:34:28,241 --> 00:34:30,655
is the visual nature
of the product.
858
00:34:30,758 --> 00:34:34,413
The company simply
hasn't figured out well
859
00:34:34,517 --> 00:34:38,689
how to understand the
dark corners of Instagram,
860
00:34:38,793 --> 00:34:40,896
that are harder to look for
861
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,862
if you don't know
what you're looking for.
862
00:34:42,965 --> 00:34:45,655
The hashtag communities
that exist.
863
00:34:45,758 --> 00:34:47,103
If you don't know
the right hashtag
864
00:34:47,206 --> 00:34:48,689
you might never find them.
865
00:34:48,793 --> 00:34:51,068
So, it's very easy
for somebody
866
00:34:51,172 --> 00:34:53,137
to be doing something
that is harmful
867
00:34:53,241 --> 00:34:55,137
and not coming
to the attention
868
00:34:55,241 --> 00:34:58,310
of anyone
in Menlo Park, California.
869
00:34:58,413 --> 00:34:59,655
- The people
that were building
870
00:34:59,758 --> 00:35:01,379
a lot of the social
technologies were,
871
00:35:01,482 --> 00:35:03,724
I don't want say
similar to me,
872
00:35:03,827 --> 00:35:06,862
but they were probably more
similar to me than different.
873
00:35:06,965 --> 00:35:08,482
And what I mean by
that is that we were,
874
00:35:08,586 --> 00:35:10,275
one,
interested in technology.
875
00:35:10,379 --> 00:35:13,827
Two, we were pretty literate
and educated.
876
00:35:13,931 --> 00:35:18,310
And we...I thought that
877
00:35:18,413 --> 00:35:20,206
by bringing this technology
to the world...
878
00:35:22,413 --> 00:35:24,379
..a lot of things would just
sort of sort themselves out.
879
00:35:24,482 --> 00:35:27,448
I'm sure that there
was some vague awareness,
880
00:35:27,551 --> 00:35:29,551
perhaps, about that risk
881
00:35:29,655 --> 00:35:31,862
in the early days
of social media.
882
00:35:31,965 --> 00:35:32,965
In some ways,
883
00:35:33,068 --> 00:35:34,034
I don't want to say
884
00:35:34,137 --> 00:35:35,586
we were, like,
blinded by ambition,
885
00:35:35,689 --> 00:35:36,862
but blinded by the desire
886
00:35:36,965 --> 00:35:38,827
to just kind of get
this stuff out there
887
00:35:38,931 --> 00:35:39,965
and then we'd sort it out.
888
00:35:40,068 --> 00:35:41,413
Part of this was
a selection bias.
889
00:35:41,517 --> 00:35:42,931
We were seeing people
having a great time
890
00:35:43,034 --> 00:35:44,517
and using these things
for good.
891
00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:46,620
And I think that, you know,
at least for me,
892
00:35:46,724 --> 00:35:48,103
propelled me
to continue to believe
893
00:35:48,206 --> 00:35:51,482
that bringing more access to
more people was a net good
894
00:35:51,586 --> 00:35:53,000
as opposed to just saying,
895
00:35:53,103 --> 00:35:54,724
"OK, you know what?
Humans aren't ready for this.
896
00:35:54,827 --> 00:35:56,241
"Let's give it up."
897
00:36:04,620 --> 00:36:05,862
What was really interesting
898
00:36:05,965 --> 00:36:09,344
about the way Instagram
solved its problems
899
00:36:09,448 --> 00:36:12,689
is they focused
on the biggest users first.
900
00:36:12,793 --> 00:36:15,896
People like Taylor Swift
and Ariana Grande,
901
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,448
they had
such big follower counts
902
00:36:18,551 --> 00:36:22,482
that they also got
a bigger dose of the issues.
903
00:36:22,586 --> 00:36:26,310
Taylor Swift was embroiled
in a controversy
904
00:36:26,413 --> 00:36:28,931
and people were posting
a lot of snakes on her page
905
00:36:29,034 --> 00:36:30,241
and she hated it.
906
00:36:30,344 --> 00:36:32,206
She didn't want
to have a platform
907
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:34,310
that was just full
of harassment
908
00:36:34,413 --> 00:36:35,827
every time she logged on.
909
00:36:35,931 --> 00:36:37,586
And so that year,
910
00:36:37,689 --> 00:36:42,586
Instagram decided to allow
muting of any words or emoji
911
00:36:42,689 --> 00:36:44,137
that you don't want to see.
912
00:36:50,206 --> 00:36:52,517
Hiding the words
in your comments
913
00:36:52,620 --> 00:36:53,724
that make you sad.
914
00:36:53,827 --> 00:36:55,965
Blocking certain people
from following you.
915
00:36:56,068 --> 00:36:59,068
Making sure that you can't
see likes on those posts.
916
00:36:59,172 --> 00:37:02,827
Well, hiding it
doesn't make it go away.
917
00:37:02,931 --> 00:37:04,275
You are still in this world
918
00:37:04,379 --> 00:37:06,896
where everyone's being
compared to everyone else,
919
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,862
and that is by its very
nature anxiety-inducing.
920
00:37:10,965 --> 00:37:12,206
What happens for some adults,
921
00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:13,482
for some kids,
922
00:37:13,586 --> 00:37:15,931
is that they self-soothe
923
00:37:16,034 --> 00:37:18,344
by scrolling on Instagram.
924
00:37:18,448 --> 00:37:21,586
The only problem is if your
self-soothing technique,
925
00:37:21,689 --> 00:37:23,896
you know,
sitting and scrolling,
926
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,310
is exposing you
to more of the content
927
00:37:26,413 --> 00:37:28,862
that is making you sick,
928
00:37:28,965 --> 00:37:31,379
that's not a good coping
mechanism.
929
00:37:43,344 --> 00:37:44,724
- Having an eating disorder,
930
00:37:44,827 --> 00:37:46,379
it's really easy for you
931
00:37:46,482 --> 00:37:48,241
to fall into...um,
932
00:37:48,344 --> 00:37:50,482
it's kind of like
a trigger hole.
933
00:37:50,586 --> 00:37:52,896
Once I see one thing
that's triggering,
934
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,310
it's kind of easy to then go
and find things
935
00:37:55,413 --> 00:37:56,482
that are also triggering,
936
00:37:56,586 --> 00:37:59,034
just because that part
of your brain likes it.
937
00:38:00,034 --> 00:38:03,413
I get food pictures pop up
938
00:38:03,517 --> 00:38:07,517
and they've got
calorie counts on each side.
939
00:38:07,620 --> 00:38:10,172
And it will say, like,
which one is more healthy
940
00:38:10,275 --> 00:38:13,793
or how you can swap out
different foods
941
00:38:13,896 --> 00:38:16,862
so that your calorie count
is lower.
942
00:38:16,965 --> 00:38:18,689
Being in a trigger hole
943
00:38:18,793 --> 00:38:20,310
can have, like,
serious effects
944
00:38:20,413 --> 00:38:23,413
on what happens
next in your life.
945
00:38:23,517 --> 00:38:25,000
Like, I might see something
946
00:38:25,103 --> 00:38:26,931
and then go
and not eat dinner.
947
00:38:28,172 --> 00:38:29,965
- In a sense,
there is a feedback loop.
948
00:38:30,068 --> 00:38:31,448
The algorithm shows
you some things
949
00:38:31,551 --> 00:38:33,034
that it thinks you're likely
to interact with.
950
00:38:33,137 --> 00:38:34,448
You may interact
with those things,
951
00:38:34,551 --> 00:38:36,517
and then it'll try to show
you more of those things
952
00:38:36,620 --> 00:38:37,620
as you interact
with it more.
953
00:38:37,724 --> 00:38:40,379
That feedback loop is
reasonably well understood.
954
00:38:40,482 --> 00:38:41,793
I think the aspect of it
955
00:38:41,896 --> 00:38:43,344
that's a little harder
to understand
956
00:38:43,448 --> 00:38:46,965
is they will actually change
your own behaviour over time
957
00:38:47,068 --> 00:38:48,827
by showing you
certain things.
958
00:38:48,931 --> 00:38:51,448
- If I'm scrolling
13 hours a day,
959
00:38:51,551 --> 00:38:54,137
it kind of...no wonder
960
00:38:54,241 --> 00:38:57,793
that it had a negative effect
on my mental health.
961
00:38:57,896 --> 00:39:00,931
All the images would be
quite highly edited.
962
00:39:01,034 --> 00:39:02,379
I was, like, comparing myself
963
00:39:02,482 --> 00:39:05,758
to this false person
that I was looking at,
964
00:39:05,862 --> 00:39:09,758
and not really realising that
that's what I was doing.
965
00:39:09,862 --> 00:39:12,172
I always used to use
filters on Instagram,
966
00:39:12,275 --> 00:39:14,827
and I didn't realise how
damaging they were.
967
00:39:14,931 --> 00:39:16,758
But I always used to put,
like,
968
00:39:16,862 --> 00:39:18,172
my pictures in Facetune
969
00:39:18,275 --> 00:39:20,620
and, like,
make my waist smaller
970
00:39:20,724 --> 00:39:22,034
than what it was.
971
00:39:22,137 --> 00:39:24,586
The underlying goal
has always been the same.
972
00:39:24,689 --> 00:39:26,000
How do I look best?
973
00:39:26,103 --> 00:39:29,000
And maybe we need fewer,
you know,
974
00:39:29,103 --> 00:39:30,689
contrast filters
and saturation filters
975
00:39:30,793 --> 00:39:31,689
and all this stuff.
976
00:39:31,793 --> 00:39:33,068
And, oh,
take away my freckles
977
00:39:33,172 --> 00:39:35,275
or take away my, like,
wrinkles or something.
978
00:39:35,379 --> 00:39:38,275
And how do you guarantee,
like, a selfie to look good?
979
00:39:38,379 --> 00:39:41,586
That was a problem we had
to try and solve.
980
00:39:41,689 --> 00:39:43,206
Making sure that, yeah,
981
00:39:43,310 --> 00:39:46,896
when you took a photo,
your skin looked good,
982
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,862
so all the blemishes go away.
983
00:39:53,931 --> 00:39:56,758
Oh, wow. Um...
984
00:39:56,862 --> 00:39:58,068
So, I have a two-year-old,
985
00:39:58,172 --> 00:40:01,448
in 16 years when she's 18...
986
00:40:01,551 --> 00:40:03,586
As a parent, I want to
educate my daughter to say,
987
00:40:03,689 --> 00:40:04,689
"You know what, it's OK.
988
00:40:04,793 --> 00:40:08,172
"Beauty is up to you
to define, to decide.
989
00:40:08,275 --> 00:40:12,103
"It's not something that
is defined by someone else."
990
00:40:12,206 --> 00:40:14,034
You make people aware that
there is a filter.
991
00:40:14,137 --> 00:40:15,448
That's good,
992
00:40:15,551 --> 00:40:18,103
because they know that
there's some sense of,
993
00:40:18,206 --> 00:40:19,827
like,
this image has been doctored.
994
00:40:19,931 --> 00:40:21,482
I think
it's our responsibility
995
00:40:21,586 --> 00:40:24,103
to...to tell people that.
996
00:40:25,862 --> 00:40:27,103
- During COVID,
997
00:40:27,206 --> 00:40:29,344
I made friends with
a neighbour...
998
00:40:30,482 --> 00:40:32,172
..and she'd been through
999
00:40:32,275 --> 00:40:33,931
eating disorder
recovery before,
1000
00:40:34,034 --> 00:40:35,344
she'd been an inpatient.
1001
00:40:35,448 --> 00:40:37,655
And she said, like,
1002
00:40:37,758 --> 00:40:40,379
"You're actually ill," like,
1003
00:40:40,482 --> 00:40:42,724
"You're ill,
you need to get help".
1004
00:40:44,413 --> 00:40:46,965
Something just clicked
and I was like...
1005
00:40:49,172 --> 00:40:51,517
"Yeah, I think actually,
you're right."
1006
00:40:51,620 --> 00:40:55,000
And, yeah,
I then got help from there.
1007
00:41:00,586 --> 00:41:03,827
Right, I'm filming now
and I'm not stopping it.
1008
00:41:03,931 --> 00:41:06,275
I've stopped this video
about 100 times.
1009
00:41:07,517 --> 00:41:10,551
Hi everyone,
welcome back to my IGTV.
1010
00:41:10,655 --> 00:41:11,896
So, this week
1011
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,000
is Eating Disorder
Awareness Week,
1012
00:41:14,103 --> 00:41:15,448
if you didn't know already.
1013
00:41:15,551 --> 00:41:18,655
The content I post now
is a lot more uplifting,
1014
00:41:18,758 --> 00:41:20,310
a lot more positive,
1015
00:41:20,413 --> 00:41:22,931
kind of still having
that fashion element.
1016
00:41:23,034 --> 00:41:25,206
but I also now talk
about healing.
1017
00:41:28,379 --> 00:41:29,275
When you look back
1018
00:41:29,379 --> 00:41:30,862
at your content from then,
like,
1019
00:41:30,965 --> 00:41:33,103
what do you think about
that girl?
1020
00:41:34,689 --> 00:41:36,034
- Um...
1021
00:41:36,137 --> 00:41:37,931
I feel like I have, like,
1022
00:41:38,034 --> 00:41:40,000
quite a lot of compassion
for that girl.
1023
00:41:40,103 --> 00:41:41,172
Because I feel like she was,
like,
1024
00:41:41,275 --> 00:41:45,206
striving to achieve this
level of, like, perfection
1025
00:41:45,310 --> 00:41:47,931
that just was never
going to happen.
1026
00:41:48,034 --> 00:41:51,586
But she also, like,
worked so hard to, like,
1027
00:41:51,689 --> 00:41:53,758
get to where she was.
1028
00:41:53,862 --> 00:41:55,586
I'm getting upset.
1029
00:42:01,724 --> 00:42:03,000
Yeah...
1030
00:42:07,931 --> 00:42:11,000
When I look back at that
girl I just think...
1031
00:42:12,655 --> 00:42:16,103
..I just wish that someone
would have been, like,
1032
00:42:16,206 --> 00:42:18,448
"Hey, it's OK," like,
1033
00:42:18,551 --> 00:42:20,413
"there's something
wrong here,
1034
00:42:20,517 --> 00:42:22,034
"but it's all going
to be OK",
1035
00:42:22,137 --> 00:42:23,137
you know?
1036
00:42:30,379 --> 00:42:31,862
- I don't know
if it's an unusual thing
1037
00:42:31,965 --> 00:42:34,275
about the nature of work
as an influencer.
1038
00:42:34,379 --> 00:42:37,620
But there are no built-in
protections.
1039
00:42:37,724 --> 00:42:39,793
You're competing with
literally millions of people
1040
00:42:39,896 --> 00:42:41,413
on a scale that most humans
1041
00:42:41,517 --> 00:42:43,000
have never had
to confront before.
1042
00:42:43,103 --> 00:42:45,862
Imagine constructing
your world
1043
00:42:45,965 --> 00:42:48,206
such that you create things
that happen
1044
00:42:48,310 --> 00:42:50,068
so you can take photos
of them
1045
00:42:50,172 --> 00:42:51,758
in order for them
to get likes.
1046
00:42:51,862 --> 00:42:53,206
So then you can get
the validation
1047
00:42:53,310 --> 00:42:55,896
to stay at a certain rung
on a ladder.
1048
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:57,379
That if you stop doing that,
1049
00:42:57,482 --> 00:42:59,241
then you lose all
of your self-worth,
1050
00:42:59,344 --> 00:43:01,068
and you'll start
to question your value.
1051
00:43:01,172 --> 00:43:03,482
It's a really tough place
to be in.
1052
00:43:03,586 --> 00:43:05,344
It's in the very structure
of Instagram
1053
00:43:05,448 --> 00:43:07,379
that these problems
have come about.
1054
00:43:07,482 --> 00:43:10,000
And so
if you don't change that,
1055
00:43:10,103 --> 00:43:12,655
you really can't change
the nature
1056
00:43:12,758 --> 00:43:14,206
of how people feel about
being compared
1057
00:43:14,310 --> 00:43:15,793
to others all the time.
1058
00:43:22,793 --> 00:43:23,793
- My name's Callum,
1059
00:43:23,896 --> 00:43:25,827
I work for the Centre for
Countering Digital Hate
1060
00:43:25,931 --> 00:43:27,310
as its Head of Research.
1061
00:43:27,413 --> 00:43:30,620
We've investigated a range
of social media platforms.
1062
00:43:30,724 --> 00:43:31,896
We look at how their
algorithms work
1063
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,310
and what sort of content
that they promote,
1064
00:43:34,413 --> 00:43:35,620
and whether they're profiting
from things
1065
00:43:35,724 --> 00:43:36,758
that they shouldn't be.
1066
00:43:36,862 --> 00:43:38,551
A big part of
Instagram's business model
1067
00:43:38,655 --> 00:43:40,758
is that it has
an understanding
1068
00:43:40,862 --> 00:43:42,103
of what users are
interested in.
1069
00:43:42,206 --> 00:43:43,482
And what it says
to advertisers
1070
00:43:43,586 --> 00:43:45,379
is put your advertising
on our platform
1071
00:43:45,482 --> 00:43:47,620
and we'll make sure
it's shown to people
1072
00:43:47,724 --> 00:43:50,620
who are most likely
to engage with this.
1073
00:43:51,896 --> 00:43:53,344
We set up an account
to investigate
1074
00:43:53,448 --> 00:43:55,034
what's been called bigorexia,
1075
00:43:55,137 --> 00:43:56,965
and that's primarily men
who become obsessed
1076
00:43:57,068 --> 00:43:59,034
with becoming
very big and muscular,
1077
00:43:59,137 --> 00:44:01,310
obsessed with bodybuilding.
1078
00:44:01,413 --> 00:44:03,482
What we found
was that the algorithm
1079
00:44:03,586 --> 00:44:06,448
would push bodybuilding
content very, very hard
1080
00:44:06,551 --> 00:44:08,896
to accounts that began
to follow that content.
1081
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,689
To the extent that the
Explore page on Instagram,
1082
00:44:11,793 --> 00:44:15,448
80 percent of the posts on
there recommended to you
1083
00:44:15,551 --> 00:44:19,344
would feature pretty extreme
bodybuilding physiques.
1084
00:44:20,689 --> 00:44:23,241
This has been likened
to a form of body dysmorphia,
1085
00:44:23,344 --> 00:44:25,724
and increasingly
is thought to be harmful.
1086
00:44:25,827 --> 00:44:28,896
And so the signs
that the algorithm
1087
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,689
is pushing men towards
that content
1088
00:44:30,793 --> 00:44:32,275
and is encouraging them
to see
1089
00:44:32,379 --> 00:44:34,655
this pretty
extraordinary body shape
1090
00:44:34,758 --> 00:44:38,068
as ordinary, normal
and easily attainable.
1091
00:44:38,172 --> 00:44:41,413
It was getting adverts
for health supplements,
1092
00:44:41,517 --> 00:44:45,068
for diet plans,
for workout plans.
1093
00:44:45,172 --> 00:44:47,448
So none of which
is harmful in itself,
1094
00:44:47,551 --> 00:44:49,413
but it is another example
of how Instagram
1095
00:44:49,517 --> 00:44:51,517
turns that time spent
on the platform
1096
00:44:51,620 --> 00:44:54,620
looking at this content into
money through advertising.
1097
00:44:54,724 --> 00:44:56,931
If you're Instagram,
strategically,
1098
00:44:57,034 --> 00:44:59,551
the ordinary user
doesn't matter
1099
00:44:59,655 --> 00:45:02,413
as much as the advertiser.
1100
00:45:02,517 --> 00:45:06,068
Unless you're thinking
about them en masse.
1101
00:45:06,172 --> 00:45:07,827
They need more ordinary users
1102
00:45:07,931 --> 00:45:09,275
spending time on Instagram
1103
00:45:09,379 --> 00:45:12,482
to be the ones buying
the products.
1104
00:45:12,586 --> 00:45:14,482
I mean,
the most effective ads
1105
00:45:14,586 --> 00:45:15,827
and brand marketing
1106
00:45:15,931 --> 00:45:18,413
is content that makes
you feel something,
1107
00:45:18,517 --> 00:45:20,482
that causes a reaction
or a response.
1108
00:45:20,586 --> 00:45:22,206
Instagram was one
of the first platforms
1109
00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:24,379
where I think
that creator class
1110
00:45:24,482 --> 00:45:26,827
really realised that
the best ads
1111
00:45:26,931 --> 00:45:28,655
are ads that don't feel
like ads at all.
1112
00:45:32,517 --> 00:45:35,241
- So my natural body type
is very slim.
1113
00:45:35,344 --> 00:45:38,620
And when I was younger
skinny girls were in.
1114
00:45:38,724 --> 00:45:41,448
But when you came
to Instagram now
1115
00:45:41,551 --> 00:45:43,344
the curvy girl was cool.
1116
00:45:43,448 --> 00:45:46,724
And then with the whole
advertising of,
1117
00:45:46,827 --> 00:45:50,172
oh, Brazilian butt lift,
BBL, you can do this,
1118
00:45:50,275 --> 00:45:51,517
you can do that.
1119
00:45:51,620 --> 00:45:53,379
And if you don't know
what a BBL is,
1120
00:45:53,482 --> 00:45:56,793
they transfer fat from
other areas of your body
1121
00:45:56,896 --> 00:45:58,413
and they pull it
into your bum
1122
00:45:58,517 --> 00:45:59,931
and then they sculpt you.
1123
00:46:00,034 --> 00:46:01,344
I was thinking,
1124
00:46:01,448 --> 00:46:03,931
OK, curvy girls are in.
1125
00:46:04,034 --> 00:46:05,517
If I'm curvier I'm going
to get more followers.
1126
00:46:05,620 --> 00:46:07,379
If I get more followers
I'm going to get more money.
1127
00:46:07,482 --> 00:46:08,344
If I get more money
1128
00:46:08,448 --> 00:46:10,793
that's a better future
for my children.
1129
00:46:15,620 --> 00:46:18,275
I'm Chenade Laroy
and I'm out here in Istanbul,
1130
00:46:18,379 --> 00:46:21,724
and I've just had
my BBL surgery,
1131
00:46:21,827 --> 00:46:23,344
hence why
I'm a little bit stiff.
1132
00:46:23,448 --> 00:46:27,896
I got my BBL surgery done
by a company.
1133
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,344
They expected from me
that I post stories
1134
00:46:30,448 --> 00:46:32,931
and post my results
of before and after.
1135
00:46:33,034 --> 00:46:34,448
In return for that,
1136
00:46:34,551 --> 00:46:37,482
they would give me
a reduced rate.
1137
00:46:37,586 --> 00:46:42,068
It turned out to be something
I wouldn't do again.
1138
00:46:42,172 --> 00:46:44,827
- Hi. How are you, babe?
- Hello!
1139
00:46:46,724 --> 00:46:48,206
- How are you?
- Great, thanks.
1140
00:46:48,310 --> 00:46:49,862
Get some water if you like,
some biscuits.
1141
00:46:49,965 --> 00:46:51,241
Yeah,
definitely need some water.
1142
00:46:51,344 --> 00:46:52,896
After my surgery,
when I came back to England,
1143
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:54,000
my body was perfect.
1144
00:46:54,103 --> 00:46:56,379
And it was only when I was
having my massages done,
1145
00:46:56,482 --> 00:46:58,103
one of the masseuses
was like,
1146
00:46:58,206 --> 00:47:00,000
"I think you still have
fluid left inside you."
1147
00:47:08,793 --> 00:47:09,827
Can you see like here?
1148
00:47:09,931 --> 00:47:12,034
It looks like I've got,
like, a small baby.
1149
00:47:14,275 --> 00:47:16,931
And the thing is, like,
people knew me on Instagram,
1150
00:47:17,034 --> 00:47:18,655
'cause I've always been into
my health and fitness.
1151
00:47:18,758 --> 00:47:20,448
I've always had a six pack.
1152
00:47:20,551 --> 00:47:22,862
I did go onto my Instagram,
put up a whole post.
1153
00:47:22,965 --> 00:47:24,931
I had a negative experience,
1154
00:47:25,034 --> 00:47:27,758
so I owe it to my audience
to be honest and say,
1155
00:47:27,862 --> 00:47:29,517
"This is what happened
to me."
1156
00:47:29,620 --> 00:47:32,275
You need to not fall into
the hype like I did.
1157
00:47:32,379 --> 00:47:36,517
You need to actually think
about the whole process.
1158
00:47:36,620 --> 00:47:38,379
It's one of the most
dangerous procedures,
1159
00:47:38,482 --> 00:47:39,931
and obviously, like,
I have two children.
1160
00:47:40,034 --> 00:47:42,034
It's very irresponsible
of me,
1161
00:47:42,137 --> 00:47:43,827
especially being a mum.
1162
00:47:43,931 --> 00:47:45,172
But if I'm honest,
1163
00:47:45,275 --> 00:47:47,344
I feel like I probably still
would've done it.
1164
00:47:47,448 --> 00:47:49,206
It's the advertising.
1165
00:47:49,310 --> 00:47:50,241
And like,
1166
00:47:50,344 --> 00:47:52,068
"Oh, but he looks good,
and her body looks good."
1167
00:47:52,172 --> 00:47:53,724
And this is why, like,
for me,
1168
00:47:53,827 --> 00:47:55,241
I had to go through
my Instagram
1169
00:47:55,344 --> 00:47:57,517
and filter who I follow.
1170
00:48:20,620 --> 00:48:21,827
When it comes
to the algorithm
1171
00:48:21,931 --> 00:48:23,724
that's where safety
has to be paramount,
1172
00:48:23,827 --> 00:48:25,034
because that's where
the platforms
1173
00:48:25,137 --> 00:48:28,931
take an active role in
presenting content to users
1174
00:48:29,034 --> 00:48:30,344
and it can cause harm
to them.
1175
00:48:37,896 --> 00:48:40,172
Yes, influencers
have a responsibility
1176
00:48:40,275 --> 00:48:41,827
to their public,
to their audience,
1177
00:48:41,931 --> 00:48:43,310
especially
if they're younger people.
1178
00:48:43,413 --> 00:48:45,137
However, the government
1179
00:48:45,241 --> 00:48:47,241
and the people
that actually run Instagram,
1180
00:48:47,344 --> 00:48:49,620
that's where the
responsibility really falls.
1181
00:48:49,724 --> 00:48:51,344
If something
is that detrimental,
1182
00:48:51,448 --> 00:48:53,241
you have the algorithms,
you have the numbers.
1183
00:48:53,344 --> 00:48:55,724
You're seeing everything
from the top.
1184
00:48:55,827 --> 00:48:58,689
They have to control it.
They have to figure out.
1185
00:49:14,896 --> 00:49:15,827
It's not the case
1186
00:49:15,931 --> 00:49:18,206
that social media companies
like Instagram
1187
00:49:18,310 --> 00:49:20,034
are just not thinking
about all the ways
1188
00:49:20,137 --> 00:49:22,793
in which their content could
harm people - they are.
1189
00:49:22,896 --> 00:49:25,206
They write rules which
are publicly available,
1190
00:49:25,310 --> 00:49:26,655
and on the basis
of those rules,
1191
00:49:26,758 --> 00:49:30,310
content is completely removed
by people from the site.
1192
00:49:30,413 --> 00:49:31,689
But the other way
they're thinking
1193
00:49:31,793 --> 00:49:34,034
about reducing content
that's harmful to people
1194
00:49:34,137 --> 00:49:35,965
is by training machine
learning models
1195
00:49:36,068 --> 00:49:38,310
to predict
what kinds of content
1196
00:49:38,413 --> 00:49:40,241
meet certain definitions,
1197
00:49:40,344 --> 00:49:44,965
and then demote that
on people's Instagram feeds.
1198
00:49:45,068 --> 00:49:46,586
But the crucial question
about that -
1199
00:49:46,689 --> 00:49:48,965
and this is a question
for society -
1200
00:49:49,068 --> 00:49:51,586
is who should get to decide?
1201
00:49:51,689 --> 00:49:52,827
What are the concepts
1202
00:49:52,931 --> 00:49:54,827
that we should train machine
learning models
1203
00:49:54,931 --> 00:49:57,275
to demote content
on the basis of?
1204
00:49:57,379 --> 00:49:59,379
Should that be
the companies themselves?
1205
00:49:59,482 --> 00:50:02,103
Should it be legislators
or regulators?
1206
00:50:02,206 --> 00:50:05,034
And how should we know
what those concepts are?
1207
00:50:05,137 --> 00:50:06,034
'Cause right now,
1208
00:50:06,137 --> 00:50:08,068
we don't know all that
much about them.
1209
00:50:21,482 --> 00:50:22,896
- What's going on, Abby?
1210
00:50:26,034 --> 00:50:28,379
Have a think
of 10 different things
1211
00:50:28,482 --> 00:50:31,000
that are important
or special about you
1212
00:50:31,103 --> 00:50:34,931
that nobody would know
about unless you told them.
1213
00:50:35,034 --> 00:50:36,137
I'm living at home now,
1214
00:50:36,241 --> 00:50:38,482
so I've moved from
my placement.
1215
00:50:38,586 --> 00:50:42,068
I didn't have my phone from
my first placement.
1216
00:50:42,172 --> 00:50:45,482
I'd say about 14, 15 months,
I didn't have my phone for.
1217
00:50:45,586 --> 00:50:47,586
They knew what was going on
with social media,
1218
00:50:47,689 --> 00:50:48,827
stuff like that,
so it was like,
1219
00:50:48,931 --> 00:50:50,137
"No, we're taking
your phone off you,
1220
00:50:50,241 --> 00:50:53,206
"um, because it isn't
making you any better,
1221
00:50:53,310 --> 00:50:54,655
"it's just making you worse".
1222
00:50:55,862 --> 00:50:57,379
Not having access
to them groups
1223
00:50:57,482 --> 00:50:58,758
as such was very good,
1224
00:50:58,862 --> 00:51:00,241
like,
still now I'm very grateful
1225
00:51:00,344 --> 00:51:01,517
that I didn't have my phone.
1226
00:51:01,620 --> 00:51:03,206
I'm not in them
groups anymore.
1227
00:51:03,310 --> 00:51:04,551
If I get added, I'll leave.
1228
00:51:04,655 --> 00:51:07,241
And then look at her face
when she turns.
1229
00:51:07,344 --> 00:51:10,103
- With Abby's phone and that
it is a bit of a concern,
1230
00:51:10,206 --> 00:51:11,448
'cause you don't know
whose on there,
1231
00:51:11,551 --> 00:51:12,655
who she's messaging.
1232
00:51:12,758 --> 00:51:14,068
So it makes you
quite worried,
1233
00:51:14,172 --> 00:51:17,344
what she's doing by herself
and on her phone.
1234
00:51:26,586 --> 00:51:27,862
- As soon as you open
Instagram
1235
00:51:27,965 --> 00:51:29,068
it's the feed page you see
1236
00:51:29,172 --> 00:51:31,068
and not the group chats.
1237
00:51:31,172 --> 00:51:33,275
I went on Instagram,
like, about two weeks ago
1238
00:51:33,379 --> 00:51:37,379
and there was someone
posting, like,
1239
00:51:37,482 --> 00:51:40,172
a few screen recordings
of these videos -
1240
00:51:40,275 --> 00:51:43,068
people committing suicide
who'd videoed their suicides.
1241
00:51:44,344 --> 00:51:47,068
I don't know how them
videos were uploaded.
1242
00:51:47,172 --> 00:51:48,896
I didn't really look into it,
1243
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,206
'cause I was so traumatised.
1244
00:51:51,310 --> 00:51:53,413
And one of them there
was this woman
1245
00:51:53,517 --> 00:51:54,827
and she was hanging herself
1246
00:51:54,931 --> 00:51:56,310
and she was crying
and all this.
1247
00:51:57,724 --> 00:51:59,103
It's getting out of hand.
1248
00:51:59,206 --> 00:52:00,931
When I first went on
the communities
1249
00:52:01,034 --> 00:52:03,103
it was like, yeah,
people posting pictures
1250
00:52:03,206 --> 00:52:05,655
of self-harm and that
but now it's, like...
1251
00:52:06,724 --> 00:52:08,103
I mean,
that is bad in itself,
1252
00:52:08,206 --> 00:52:09,586
but now it's like extremes
1253
00:52:09,689 --> 00:52:12,068
and it's just getting,
spiralling out of control.
1254
00:52:12,172 --> 00:52:14,413
And I think people
can't control
1255
00:52:14,517 --> 00:52:15,586
what people put on anymore,
1256
00:52:15,689 --> 00:52:18,034
because they didn't stop it
in the first place.
1257
00:52:18,137 --> 00:52:21,103
- Obviously, no social media
would be the best solution,
1258
00:52:21,206 --> 00:52:24,275
but you can't take somebody's
phone off them forever,
1259
00:52:24,379 --> 00:52:25,758
their social media
off them forever.
1260
00:52:25,862 --> 00:52:28,310
So I think certain guidelines
need to be put in place
1261
00:52:28,413 --> 00:52:31,413
to stop this harm
towards people.
1262
00:52:47,931 --> 00:52:49,827
I don't think they really put
a lot of safeguards in place,
1263
00:52:49,931 --> 00:52:52,379
so all it would be
is sensitive warning
1264
00:52:52,482 --> 00:52:53,482
on this video.
1265
00:52:53,586 --> 00:52:55,103
All you have to do
is click yes,
1266
00:52:55,206 --> 00:52:56,103
do you know what I mean?
1267
00:52:56,206 --> 00:52:58,034
It's not...it just
shouldn't be up there,
1268
00:52:58,137 --> 00:53:01,034
that video should
not be on social media.
1269
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,724
- I think
we're starting to have
1270
00:53:04,827 --> 00:53:06,275
a reckoning as a society
1271
00:53:06,379 --> 00:53:10,586
for the power
that Instagram holds
1272
00:53:10,689 --> 00:53:15,241
over young people and over,
really, all of us.
1273
00:53:15,344 --> 00:53:17,137
In the last few years,
1274
00:53:17,241 --> 00:53:18,413
employees have realised
1275
00:53:18,517 --> 00:53:20,862
that the power
that this company holds
1276
00:53:20,965 --> 00:53:25,000
is simply too large,
too important to keep secret.
1277
00:53:33,068 --> 00:53:35,137
- I worked at Facebook
for approximately two years,
1278
00:53:35,241 --> 00:53:38,896
starting in June of 2019.
1279
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,068
And it really struck me,
1280
00:53:41,172 --> 00:53:42,275
when I worked at Facebook,
1281
00:53:42,379 --> 00:53:44,068
that there were a number
of systemic problems
1282
00:53:44,172 --> 00:53:45,379
that I didn't believe
1283
00:53:45,482 --> 00:53:47,000
Facebook could solve
on its own.
1284
00:53:55,034 --> 00:53:56,482
Facebook's research says
1285
00:53:56,586 --> 00:53:58,000
that in the United States
1286
00:53:58,103 --> 00:53:59,517
six percent of teenagers
1287
00:53:59,620 --> 00:54:00,793
who thought about
1288
00:54:00,896 --> 00:54:01,931
suicidal ideation said that
1289
00:54:02,034 --> 00:54:03,517
it was driven by Instagram,
1290
00:54:03,620 --> 00:54:05,482
and 13 percent in the UK.
1291
00:54:07,241 --> 00:54:08,137
Instagram makes
1292
00:54:08,241 --> 00:54:09,517
body image issues worse
1293
00:54:09,620 --> 00:54:11,103
in one in three teen girls.
1294
00:54:33,551 --> 00:54:35,655
The documents describe
an addict's narrative.
1295
00:54:35,758 --> 00:54:37,344
No, I don't feel good
when I use this.
1296
00:54:37,448 --> 00:54:38,724
I can't stop.
1297
00:54:38,827 --> 00:54:40,344
I want to stop.
1298
00:54:40,448 --> 00:54:42,965
If I leave,
I'll be ostracised.
1299
00:54:43,068 --> 00:54:44,586
And when they go
to their parents
1300
00:54:44,689 --> 00:54:46,137
and talk about
these problems,
1301
00:54:46,241 --> 00:54:50,000
because their parents never
lived this experience,
1302
00:54:50,103 --> 00:54:54,344
Facebook's own documents say
kids are suffering alone.
1303
00:54:54,448 --> 00:54:55,896
At some point I realised
1304
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,103
that the only way
these problems
1305
00:54:58,206 --> 00:54:59,241
were going to be solved
1306
00:54:59,344 --> 00:55:01,413
was if we stepped out
of the frame.
1307
00:55:01,517 --> 00:55:03,758
Facebook is trying to solve
these problems in private.
1308
00:55:03,862 --> 00:55:05,482
And that's part of why
I came forward.
1309
00:55:05,586 --> 00:55:07,655
We have to solve these
problems together.
1310
00:55:07,758 --> 00:55:09,862
Facebook and Instagram have
a responsibility
1311
00:55:09,965 --> 00:55:12,137
to better understand
the impacts
1312
00:55:12,241 --> 00:55:13,551
that they're having on
the world.
1313
00:55:13,655 --> 00:55:15,724
But, in my mind,
that's not enough.
1314
00:55:15,827 --> 00:55:19,379
What really needs
to be part of the solution
1315
00:55:19,482 --> 00:55:21,586
is a much broader
conversation with regulators,
1316
00:55:21,689 --> 00:55:22,862
with the public,
1317
00:55:22,965 --> 00:55:26,034
in terms of can we actually
envision a world
1318
00:55:26,137 --> 00:55:28,172
where Facebook
isn't just left alone
1319
00:55:28,275 --> 00:55:31,034
to do whatever it wants
to its platforms?
1320
00:55:31,137 --> 00:55:32,586
But there's actually some way
1321
00:55:32,689 --> 00:55:34,206
that we have some
transparency
1322
00:55:34,310 --> 00:55:35,241
into what they're doing.
1323
00:55:35,344 --> 00:55:36,620
And I think people are
starting to realise that,
1324
00:55:36,724 --> 00:55:39,517
actually, there's a way that
this could be done better.
1325
00:55:47,344 --> 00:55:49,689
- I'm literally a completely
different person.
1326
00:55:49,793 --> 00:55:51,862
Every single thing
is different about me now
1327
00:55:51,965 --> 00:55:54,655
because I've been through
so much therapy.
1328
00:55:54,758 --> 00:55:57,034
My whole life has changed.
1329
00:56:00,655 --> 00:56:05,793
I've decided more recently to
not edit any of my content.
1330
00:56:05,896 --> 00:56:07,068
So...
1331
00:56:07,172 --> 00:56:08,827
Oh, this is cute.
1332
00:56:08,931 --> 00:56:11,689
..I just have it straight
from my iPhone camera
1333
00:56:11,793 --> 00:56:13,689
to Instagram,
1334
00:56:13,793 --> 00:56:15,137
not being touched.
1335
00:56:15,241 --> 00:56:18,172
I don't want to add
to the problem,
1336
00:56:18,275 --> 00:56:21,482
that is probably never
going to go away,
1337
00:56:21,586 --> 00:56:27,206
by showing people
this false image of myself.
1338
00:56:28,655 --> 00:56:30,827
I feel a lot happier
and healthier.
1339
00:56:30,931 --> 00:56:33,586
Like,
I literally always smile...
1340
00:56:35,448 --> 00:56:38,344
..which I never really did
before.
1341
00:56:38,448 --> 00:56:41,137
- I hope that we will be able
to find ways
1342
00:56:41,241 --> 00:56:43,068
to feel interconnected
in a positive way
1343
00:56:43,172 --> 00:56:45,379
that benefits society
at large.
1344
00:56:45,482 --> 00:56:47,275
And I think that
there are ways
1345
00:56:47,379 --> 00:56:49,241
that social media platforms
can do that.
1346
00:56:49,344 --> 00:56:51,655
But they do need to change.
1347
00:56:53,448 --> 00:56:54,931
- Now I'm in college.
1348
00:56:55,034 --> 00:56:57,344
I'm doing my level three
Health and Social Care,
1349
00:56:57,448 --> 00:56:59,172
so I can become
a Mental Health nurse.
1350
00:56:59,275 --> 00:57:01,241
I think people need
to take responsibility
1351
00:57:01,344 --> 00:57:02,344
for what they're posting
1352
00:57:02,448 --> 00:57:04,758
and acknowledge
how it can impact others.
1353
00:57:04,862 --> 00:57:07,413
Instagram could try
and monitor this
1354
00:57:07,517 --> 00:57:08,827
a lot more closely
1355
00:57:08,931 --> 00:57:10,620
and try
and tackle this problem
1356
00:57:10,724 --> 00:57:12,379
as soon as possible.
1357
00:57:12,482 --> 00:57:16,241
I don't know, like,
who is responsible.
1358
00:57:16,344 --> 00:57:18,655
I do think it will take us
a while to kind of look back
1359
00:57:18,758 --> 00:57:19,931
and kind of figure that out.
1360
00:57:20,034 --> 00:57:21,517
Um, am I responsible?
1361
00:57:21,620 --> 00:57:22,586
Of course, I am.
1362
00:57:22,689 --> 00:57:25,310
I was part
of designing features
1363
00:57:25,413 --> 00:57:27,344
and building features
that are now used
1364
00:57:27,448 --> 00:57:28,620
in the way they are.
1365
00:57:28,724 --> 00:57:32,896
I can't completely disconnect
from having worked on it.
1366
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:34,275
I still love Instagram.
1367
00:57:34,379 --> 00:57:35,241
And I really hope
1368
00:57:35,344 --> 00:57:36,689
that it's able
to sort of figure out
1369
00:57:36,793 --> 00:57:37,758
how to navigate this space
1370
00:57:37,862 --> 00:57:39,965
and get back to what
it wanted to be.
1371
00:57:40,068 --> 00:57:42,413
But I can't say that
I'm holding my breath
1372
00:57:42,517 --> 00:57:43,448
for that to happen.
1373
00:57:43,551 --> 00:57:44,827
The only way Facebook
will change
1374
00:57:44,931 --> 00:57:46,275
is if they're forced
to change.
1375
00:57:46,379 --> 00:57:48,482
Companies don't change
until the cost of changing
1376
00:57:48,586 --> 00:57:51,275
is less than the cost
of staying the same.
1377
00:57:51,379 --> 00:57:54,448
And so we need to stand up
and demand better things.
1378
00:57:54,551 --> 00:57:56,482
We need to demand the
Instagram that we deserve,
1379
00:57:56,586 --> 00:57:58,448
not the one that Facebook
is giving us today.
97718
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.