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Slow march!
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When we join the Armed Forces,
it's not just a job.
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It's a way of life.
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(HORN SOUNDS)
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You felt part of something
bigger than yourself.
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00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,400
I was prepared to give my life
for my queen and country.
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We lived and worked
in the same place.
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00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,440
Everybody looking out
for everybody else.
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00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,560
I served in Northern Ireland
during the years of the Troubles.
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00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,840
I've served in the Falklands.
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We were the first ship to take
any attack from the enemy.
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00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,160
I was flying during the Cold War.
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00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,960
Then Gulf War One
and then during the Bosnian War.
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00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,080
I believed in our peace and
our freedoms in the United Kingdom.
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00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,880
I didn't quite realise or understand
at the time that I would be
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protecting peace and freedoms
that I would be denied myself,
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00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,760
simply because I was gay.
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(MACHINE-GUNFIRE)
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Homosexuality and its practices
are simply not compatible with
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service life
in the British Armed Forces.
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Most red-blooded males are
repelled by the physical genital
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00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,160
activities of these people.
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We will not have homosexuals
in our midst,
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and if we find some have got in,
we will get rid of them.
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A review has been launched
into the treatment
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00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,600
of LGBTQ-plus veterans.
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00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,760
Thousands were dismissed
for their sexuality
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00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,320
or had to hide
who they really were.
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00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,640
How did they know about my secrets?
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00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,440
I was constantly thinking,
"What if I make a mistake?"
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00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,000
"What if someone finds out?"
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And they've been without incomes,
lost their jobs.
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00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,440
They've lost pensions...
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I was destroyed.
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It was a complete violation.
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The witch hunt was shocking.
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They were casting a net
to haul in other people,
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to seek out and destroy.
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00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,160
REPORTER: They've waited 22 years
for the chance to tell their story.
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The odds were absolutely
stacked against us.
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But there was this last-gasp battle
that we can fight.
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The moment that I knew
I wanted to join the Army
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was also the moment
I suddenly realised
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that I was attracted to girls.
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I was 13, I was at home
with my mum and grandmother.
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I have no idea why,
but they let me sit up
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and watch a programme with them.
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(UPBEAT POP MUSIC)
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They preceded it with
a warning about
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"the content of this programme",
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and I was immediately, like,
"Ooh, hello."
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Well? Ex-Private Smithers.
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It was set in a women's
Royal Army Corps training barracks.
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Well, Corporal Harvey?
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Two women soldiers are talking
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and one of them puts a record
on the record player.
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Top of the gay girls' hit parade.
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And it was Dionne Warwick,
This Girl's In Love With You.
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(RECORD PLAYING)
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And Alison Steadman starts
dancing towards this corporal.
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And then she kissed her.
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(ON RECORD)
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Full on the mouth.
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I was like, "Oh, my God," you know.
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And I was blushing because
I was just so shocked by it.
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I'd never even thought that
women could dance together,
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let along that they could
kiss one another.
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And then they kissed again.
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And I was just blown away.
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Because I knew the way
I was responding to it was,
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"Oh, my God, I like this."
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So that was the exact moment
I thought joining the Army
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might be an opportunity
to explore who I was.
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And to find out a bit more
about my sexuality.
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ADVERT VOICEOVER: Suppose
she's set upon a career in nursing
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and yet wishes to combine it
with the active
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and communal atmosphere
of service life.
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00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,200
March '82 I joined Queen Alexandra's
Royal Army Nursing Corps,
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colloquially known as the QAs.
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I was posted to Germany.
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The last front line in defence
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against the Cold War enemies.
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With East Germany and Russia
just on the doorstep.
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So it was quite nerve-wracking,
but also exciting.
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00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,160
You could get trips through
East Germany to Berlin
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00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,800
in the days of Checkpoint Charlie,
and this incredible atmosphere.
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00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,640
We were always doing themed nights,
German night, Hawaiian night,
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pizza night.
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We'd work hard but we played hard.
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You know, we were all just
living the dream.
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(ON CASSETTE PLAYER)
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As the weeks went on,
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I noticed this person in my intake,
Sadie.
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There was something
very lovely about her.
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She'd a very cheeky sort
of look, twinkly eyes,
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just always looked a bit naughty.
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One evening the girls
that we shared with were out,
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we had the cassette player on,
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and we got talking about attractions
and what attracts you to people.
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And she said, "Have you ever been
involved with a woman?"
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And I was like,
"Oh, no. No, no, no."
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And she said, "Well, have you ever
kissed another woman?"
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And I was like, "No!"
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00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,920
And an erotic tension
just built and built.
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00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,360
We had a bit of paper
between us and I wrote,
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"I'm too scared to move."
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She took it and she wrote,
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"Move your elbow six inches
towards me."
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And she came towards me
and kissed me.
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It was beautiful.
It was erotic, it was moving,
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it was explosive.
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And in terms of me understanding
who I absolutely was,
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that was the moment.
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00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,680
(SONG ENDS)
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00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,240
But then, just after the elation...
(CASSETTE PLAYER CLICKS OFF)
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00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,720
..Sadie was basically telling me,
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00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,920
"But listen,
we've got to keep this secret.
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00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,160
You can't tell anyone,
you do know that, don't you?"
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00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,560
She says, "In the Army
you're literally deemed a criminal
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merely for being gay.
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You can be tried
in a military court."
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00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,880
And I thought, "Oh, my God,
I could go to prison for this."
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If it comes out
to the wrong people,
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you know, that's it.
You could be...
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Well, you could be out.
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It was like popping a beautiful,
gorgeous, colourful balloon,
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just "Pff!"
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00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,080
That was the first time
I understood, it's illegal.
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00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,560
And that was a huge, huge shock.
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00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,120
After that first kiss,
we were posted apart.
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But we used to write to one another.
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It was just this connection to her.
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00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,600
After Sadie,
I was well and truly in the closet.
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00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,560
Doing everything I could to present
a straight Elaine to the world.
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00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,680
I ended up going back out
with guys,
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you know, very seriously.
I got engaged to one guy.
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And I tried to convince myself
that him loving me was enough,
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and it would be OK.
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But I knew deep down it wouldn't.
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I knew that the only way
I was ever going to be able
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00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,560
to keep doing the job I loved
was to keep my sexuality a secret.
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It was nearly five years before
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00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,640
anything happened
with another woman.
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00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:50,160
But it was very discrete,
just a couple of minor involvements.
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That was to have consequences later.
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Mentally, having to hide
the real me, it was...
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00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,720
difficult because
you're constantly trying
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00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,880
to make sure you don't slip up.
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There was always a sense of
don't be obvious,
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00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:18,320
be careful what you wear,
be careful who you talk to.
157
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,960
Everybody joked about gays
in the Armed Forces.
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I just played along with it.
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00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,960
It was the best way of
keeping your nose clean
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00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,760
and making it not come
in your direction.
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We were scrambling at all times,
day and night,
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00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,960
intercepting Soviet aircraft.
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00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,520
And all the time I was doing that
I was having to hide who I was.
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The consequences of being outed
meant that I would lose
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not just my job
and therefore my income
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and therefore my accommodation,
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00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,480
but I knew I'd lose my family
as well.
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00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:53,960
There was a paranoia
that we all felt.
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I didn't want to stand anywhere
near anything that was gay.
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Because that could incriminate me.
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Turn! Left, right...
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00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,360
You'd have to careful what you say,
what you do, where you go,
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00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,560
because there was always
somebody watching.
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00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,000
I was born in South-East London,
near Crystal Palace Park.
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00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,080
And I became hooked on
ceremonial stuff
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from the early age of about five.
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00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,440
One day there was a military band
on the bandstand in the park.
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I remember sitting hypnotised,
watching it.
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00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,960
That one visionary picture
has stuck with me
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00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,920
through the whole of my life,
actually.
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00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,080
I had trained as an Army bandmaster.
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I was fortunate enough to get
into the Household Cavalry,
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where the pinnacle of my career
184
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,600
was a Trooping the Colour
in front of the Queen.
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00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,480
(MILITARY BAND PLAYING)
186
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,880
It was everything...
187
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,360
that I'd spent my life living for.
188
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,040
But at the same time,
I had a terrible secret.
189
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:27,240
I knew from a very early age that
190
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,280
I wasn't interested
in the female form.
191
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,600
I didn't know what to do about it.
192
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,600
None of my family knew,
none of my friends knew.
193
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,960
Back then, you could be charged
and you know go to prison.
194
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,160
For many of us, this is revolting -
men dancing with men.
195
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,760
These men must lead a secret,
dark existence.
196
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,120
Homosexuals in this country today
break the law.
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00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,960
Fire!
(GUNFIRE)
198
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,280
When I joined up
at the end of 1966,
199
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,520
it was illegal to be gay
in any profession.
200
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:11,120
It wasn't just the Army.
201
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,680
And then in 1967, the rules changed
in England and Wales,
202
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,320
where it was no longer illegal
to be gay.
203
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,080
But it was still illegal
in the Armed Forces.
204
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,520
They maintained the status quo
and kept the ban.
205
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,920
So I internalised it.
206
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,200
I'd always wanted a relationship,
207
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,120
but the first person
I ever got really close to,
208
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,960
it felt very unsafe
and I'd have a panic attack.
209
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,800
Perhaps the authorities
were coming too close, you know,
210
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,840
and I was really worried about
telephone calls and letters.
211
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,760
So I ended that relationship,
212
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,760
and it was very, very painful
to break up.
213
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,160
After that, I totally devoted
myself into my career.
214
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,720
The emotional part of me
would lock itself down
215
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,680
so that I didn't get
too involved again.
216
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,000
It was like tucking something away
in one part of my body
217
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:18,640
that nobody else had ever seen.
218
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,920
So, as far as I knew,
almost nobody knew about it.
219
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,520
(RADIO ON)
220
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,680
I'd been in the Army
just over 18 years.
221
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,360
I was packing to go away
on tour with my band,
222
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,400
and there was a knock at my door.
223
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,640
There were two gentlemen
stood there in suits.
224
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,040
Members of the Military Police.
225
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,200
I said, "So what's the problem?"
226
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,520
And they said,
"We have reason to believe
227
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,200
you've been involved
in homosexual activity."
228
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,120
And I thought,
"Oh, my God, what do I do?"
229
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,040
How did they know about my secret?
230
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,880
I felt like the whole world
had just stopped.
231
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,120
(OFFICER BARKS ORDER)
232
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,920
The Red Caps, as we called them,
233
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,400
you didn't really want
to get in their pathway.
234
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,120
They could do what they liked,
say what they liked.
235
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,240
You were always in fear
of the Military Police
236
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,840
when you were serving, because you
didn't know where they were
237
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,160
or what they were doing.
238
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,360
There was a team of Special
Investigation Branch policemen
239
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,840
who did nothing but look for
LGBTQ-plus service personnel.
240
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,040
One of the sailors literally
disappeared overnight.
241
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,440
Led away by the Military Police.
242
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,320
It certainly created
and enhanced the fear for me
243
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,040
that that's what lay ahead for me
if I got caught.
244
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,480
ELAINE: By the summer of 1987,
I was an officer.
245
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,360
(PHONE RINGING)
246
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,240
I was on duty
and the phone rang.
247
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,680
"Good afternoon,
Lt Chambers speaking."
248
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,800
It was Matron sounding
absolutely furious.
249
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,720
(OVER PHONE)
"This is very uncomfortable,
250
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,520
but allegations have been made.
251
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,280
Unwanted advances
on two female nurses.
252
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,880
What have you got to say?"
253
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,520
I cannot tell you,
I was just so dumbfounded.
254
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,840
I was utterly shocked.
255
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,600
Some things had gone on
with other women.
256
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,640
They were certainly not
unwanted advances,
257
00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,080
and they were certainly not
even initiated by me.
258
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,880
So I just said to her,
"That's not true."
259
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,920
She said, "As you're denying this,
260
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,360
we'll need to make further
investigations."
261
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,600
(PHONE HANGS UP)
262
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,160
And it was the word "investigation,"
I was like, "Ding!"
263
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,480
I was like, "Oh, my God,
this this is not good."
264
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,320
So I go racing back to my room.
265
00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:22,640
My head is just like...
(MAKES BUZZING SOUND)
266
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,840
"What's going on?
Oh, my God, my God!"
267
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,640
Obviously,
these allegations weren't true,
268
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,080
but they were so scary,
cos they were saying,
269
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,240
"You're a lesbian."
270
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,520
I thought, I need to get rid
of anything in my room
271
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,280
that paints me with
a Sapphic brush.
272
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,840
Letters, diaries, photos, videos.
273
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,880
But then I thought, "What am I going
to do with this evidence?"
274
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,800
This is where I made
my first massive mistake.
275
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,480
She's mentioned investigation.
276
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,320
It's gonna be
the Royal Military Police.
277
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:02,120
But it's Friday afternoon.
278
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,720
They won't come on a Friday.
279
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,560
I decided, "Well,
I'll put these items into bags
280
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,120
and decide what to do
with them later."
281
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,080
I had no notion of what
was about to happen.
282
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,480
I had no idea it was going
to get a million times worse.
283
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,640
ROBERT: I knew full well that
if Military Police were at my house,
284
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,640
the chances are they would be
looking for evidence
285
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,680
of my sexual orientation.
286
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,840
And if they found anything
like that,
287
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,800
my career was almost
certainly finished.
288
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,040
They said,
"We need to search your property."
289
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,680
And then I started to panic.
290
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,520
I'd just recently bought
a copy of Gay Times.
291
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,720
Usually, I'd made sure
I'd destroyed them,
292
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,760
but I suddenly remembered
it was tucked away in a drawer
293
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,480
in the same room
they were searching.
294
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,200
I'm stood there, my heart thumping,
trying not to show shock.
295
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,640
I didn't know how they'd found out.
296
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,320
I didn't know
who had dropped me in it.
297
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,000
And thinking,
"Please don't look in this drawer."
298
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,520
I started to think
that I'd got away with it
299
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,800
and I had a huge sense of relief.
300
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,040
But then, as they were leaving,
301
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,800
one of them opened the drawer,
302
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,200
and I thought,
"Jesus, what do I do?"
303
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,560
It was devastating.
304
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,720
My whole body was shaking inside.
305
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,680
They then informed me that
I'd got to go to their headquarters
306
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,760
for interrogation.
307
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,720
I was so used to hiding my emotions,
308
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,440
they wouldn't have seen any change
in my outward appearance.
309
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,640
Inside was turmoil.
310
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,920
I'd been back literally
only about 25, maybe 30 minutes.
311
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,840
I'm in the office and again,
the phone rings.
312
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,600
(PHONE RINGING)
313
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,040
(OVER PHONE) "Come round
to my office immediately."
314
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,800
(KNOCK ON DOOR)
315
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,160
There's two other people with her.
316
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,800
They said, "We are from
the Special Investigation Branch."
317
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,800
I just remember thinking,
"Oh, my God, this is serious.
318
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,920
This is really serious."
319
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,920
The SIB officer handed me
a printed paper,
320
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,320
"Noticed to Suspect".
321
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,040
And I thought, "What the fuck?
'Suspect?!' 'Suspect?!'
322
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,000
Oh, my God!"
323
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,120
Then he said
"Due to the lateness of the hour,
324
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,600
we're not going
to question you now.
325
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,280
But we would like to now go
and search your room."
326
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,680
And I was like,
"Oh, no. No, no, no."
327
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,600
My heart was just
absolutely pounding.
328
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,120
My palms were sweating.
329
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,040
My mouth was dry, cos I thought,
330
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,640
"I've got all this evidence in
these bags just sitting on the bed."
331
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,400
Gold dust.
332
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,120
So we go into my room
and they put on latex gloves.
333
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,720
And I just felt ashamed.
334
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,520
It was like they don't want
to touch anything associated
335
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,840
with a possible lesbian,
a possible homosexual,
336
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,840
a possible criminal pervert.
337
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,400
They flicked through every book,
pulled out my photographs,
338
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,600
saying, "Who's this?" "Who's this?"
339
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,920
Went through the pockets
in all of my jackets and trousers,
340
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,240
literally going through
my dirty linen basket.
341
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,080
But I'm just acutely aware of
these two bags sitting on the bed.
342
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,640
He finally got to the bags,
and I thought,
343
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,080
"Oh, Christ, this is it. Game over."
344
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,640
They then gathered the evidence
345
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,680
and labelled them
and they were called "exhibits".
346
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,720
That's when it got terrifying.
347
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,720
I just remember thinking,
"God, what's going to happen?"
348
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,480
ROBERT: The Military Police
took me to their headquarters
349
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,280
for a number of, erm,
interrogations.
350
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,280
It was very nerve-wracking.
351
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,000
The first thing that went
onto the table
352
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,680
was the copy of the Gay Times
they'd found.
353
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,680
They asked why had I got
that in my house.
354
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,480
Then they started asking me
lots of invasive questions.
355
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,560
What did I know about anal sex
and what did I know about oral sex?
356
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,120
I'd never, ever discussed
anything like that in my life.
357
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,480
There was no way I could
answer those questions.
358
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,560
Then they started saying,
359
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,720
"You've got a dog,
you must sleep with it."
360
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,280
"You've got brothers,
you must have slept with them."
361
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,960
It was very traumatic.
362
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,680
But then they amplified
their interrogation.
363
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,360
They brought out a letter.
364
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,120
My heart sank because
it was my handwriting.
365
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,680
It was this letter
to another musician in the Army
366
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,360
who was gay as well.
367
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,520
And one of the few people who knew
about my sexual orientation.
368
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,720
In that letter,
I'd opened up about loneliness
369
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,560
because I couldn't come out,
370
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,160
and it was a chance to explore
those sorts of feelings
371
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,800
with somebody who understood.
372
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,760
But he must have kept it.
373
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,480
It never occurred to me that
that letter would turn up
374
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,800
on a table in
a military investigation.
375
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,120
Suddenly, that was all being
used against me.
376
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,200
"What did you mean by loneliness?
What did you mean by secrets?"
377
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,680
It felt like
they could see inside me.
378
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:48,400
I felt betrayed by myself for
putting these things into writing.
379
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,280
And I thought, "Yes, you've got me.
I can't get out of this."
380
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,560
I knew I was innocent.
381
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,320
I knew I hadn't done these things
that I was being accused of,
382
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:15,880
these unwanted advances.
383
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,360
I felt a horrible mix of fear,
384
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,640
incredulity, frustration,
385
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,080
anger, everything.
386
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:33,400
It was just a mix of
really, really scary emotions.
387
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,800
The warrant officer that was leading
the investigation said to me,
388
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,240
"We've now got to begin
to question you,
389
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,840
because these allegations
have been made against you."
390
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,400
I'd had a phone call from
a military legal adviser,
391
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,160
who'd said the ramifications
were massive.
392
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,760
"Your main way to deal with this
is just to be completely honest.
393
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,920
Just tell them what happened."
394
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,640
I genuinely believe I was there
395
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,800
to defend myself against
these allegations.
396
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,960
So I said,
"OK, things happened between us,
397
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,320
consensually, and, actually,
at their invitation,"
398
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,040
not at all the way it
was being portrayed.
399
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,040
I was saying this over
and over again.
400
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,440
He realised it wasn't
as clear-cut as they expected.
401
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,400
But then the focus
just moved completely.
402
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,760
And all they were interested in was
the tagged and bagged exhibits,
403
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:43,880
my own diaries.
404
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,560
contact lists from
this lesbian pen pal club
405
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,440
and some letters that Sadie
had written to me
406
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,600
that I'd kept over the years.
407
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,800
And they began to start
joining dots together
408
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,200
and making a link
between me and her.
409
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,960
And I just thought, "What?!
What's going on? Hang on a minute."
410
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,520
At this stage, I'd been in
the interrogation for 15 hours.
411
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:15,720
15 hours.
412
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,360
I have no idea of whether that was
a deliberate tactic to wear me down.
413
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:24,800
I was terrified.
Absolutely terrified.
414
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,560
He was pushing me more and more
about the relationship with Sadie,
415
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,560
and the questioning taking the hours
and hours that it took
416
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,480
just meant that I really stupidly
ended up telling him that
417
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,640
yes, we had been briefly involved.
418
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,640
I suddenly thought,
"Oh, Christ, what have I done?
419
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,360
Oh, my God, what have I done?"
420
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,120
I'd given her up to them.
421
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,920
When the questioning finished,
422
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,480
I raced off to the payphone
and rang Sadie.
423
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,560
I was so scared. I thought,
"Oh, my God," you know,
424
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,880
"they're going to go to
her place now, I just know it."
425
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,560
I just had to warn her.
426
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,360
She was very angry with me,
basically saying,
427
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,480
"You fucking idiot!"
428
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:20,880
It was breaking my heart.
429
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,400
By the end of the call...
430
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,560
Sorry.
By the end of the call...
431
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,120
..she was like, "Be careful."
432
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,800
"Look after yourself."
433
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,920
And, you know, she knew...
434
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,320
..she knew by the end of the call
I would never do anything
435
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,640
to hurt her deliberately
because I loved her.
436
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,040
Once the investigation
was concluded,
437
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,040
there were absolutely no charges
brought against me
438
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,720
and the allegations
had been dropped or disproved.
439
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,360
But they had enough evidence
440
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,360
of what they deemed
as "unnatural conduct"
441
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200
because of
my "homosexual proclivities".
442
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,480
I was told, "You have to resign."
443
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,960
I didn't want to accept that.
444
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,080
I did not want my career...
I'm going to get upset now.
445
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,040
I did not want my career
to be over for that.
446
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,480
Why should it be?
447
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,120
I was a bloody good nurse.
448
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,080
And I honestly thought,
"Why would they do that?
449
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,920
Why would they get rid of me?"
450
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,600
Suddenly,
I was back out in the world.
451
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,680
That's when it
really, really hit home.
452
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,200
I was living with my mum and dad.
I've been outed to my entire family.
453
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,840
I felt I've lost everything
that I've worked so hard to get.
454
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,480
I was just left completely
wrung out, empty.
455
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,680
It's the only thing that ever
happened to me in my life
456
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,160
that seriously made me
contemplate killing myself.
457
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,800
That's how seriously bad it was.
458
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,600
I was just so angry
with what had happened,
459
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,840
and this absolute sense
that it was so unjust.
460
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,920
And I wanted to change that.
461
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:43,800
It took me ten years of writing,
harassing and refusing to let go
462
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,840
before I was able to get hold of the
full records of my investigation.
463
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,480
I mean, it's hundreds of pages.
464
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,760
This language is just incredible.
465
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,000
"Aberrant behaviour",
"homosexual proclivities",
466
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,480
"unnatural conduct".
467
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,520
It's very strange just to see
468
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,680
one's life dissected in this way.
469
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,400
But also, there's stuff in here
I wasn't expecting to see.
470
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,680
I honestly thought
it was just about me,
471
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,240
and then Sadie was
inadvertently involved.
472
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,320
But it had gone way beyond
just us two.
473
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,680
There were seven people in total
whose lives were affected by this.
474
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,080
When I found that out,
of course, I felt guilty,
475
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,520
because it was my diaries
and my letters
476
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,520
that led to other people
being dragged in.
477
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,760
That's... That's horrific.
478
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:55,000
The witch hunt that followed
was shocking, just awful.
479
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,560
The Military Police were looking
for anybody they could get.
480
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,400
People had been hunted
down like vermin.
481
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,120
They were casting a net and they
were trying to haul in other people
482
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,680
that might be homosexual
to seek out and destroy.
483
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,920
I was a Military Policewoman,
484
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,520
a member of
the Special Investigation Branch,
485
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,520
investigating people
for being alleged homosexual.
486
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,040
The scale of operation involved
in tracking down homosexuality
487
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,880
was surprisingly vast.
488
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,240
We had a database called
the Lesbian Index.
489
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,320
Drawers full of cards
that had people's names on.
490
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,840
They could come from tip-offs
or an accusation,
491
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,000
or, following a search, you might
have found the evidence yourself
492
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,760
through reading someone's letter and
then linking that to another person.
493
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,640
Or maybe even it was just
a suspicion about someone.
494
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,520
It could be short hair or having
a boyish nickname like "Charlie",
495
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,880
or the way you walked or putting
your hands in your pockets,
496
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,480
the way you stood.
497
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,360
Even the way you smoked
or held a cigarette.
498
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,760
Once we had a name,
499
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,440
the lengths that we'd go to,
to entrap people,
500
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,040
waiting outside gay bars,
501
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,440
seeing if someone
would buy you a drink.
502
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,160
It would be a team of operatives
following people
503
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,080
and surveilling people,
taking pictures.
504
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,800
The investigations were
a huge amount of man hours,
505
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,600
a huge amount of detail.
506
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,880
So we'd drag them in,
507
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,560
and then bully people
during interviews.
508
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,760
A lot of it was about
getting names.
509
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,480
So it wasn't enough to have
that one person in the hot seat.
510
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,400
They would then be trying
to capture as many other people,
511
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,440
hence the phrase "witch hunt".
512
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,720
The Special Investigation Branch
513
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,080
were completely
and utterly despicable.
514
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,760
Absolutely despicable.
What they put people through.
515
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,360
That night the Military Police in
excessive numbers raided the block.
516
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:52,240
The humiliation of being dragged out
of my room, barefoot, in a T-shirt,
517
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,440
that's when the trauma hit me.
518
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,680
I was on antidepressants for,
like, pretty much
519
00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:58,960
the last 18 months of my career.
520
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,440
And so I handed in my notice.
521
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,520
The captain told me that
I'd be discharged
522
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,600
because disgusting people
such as myself,
523
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,120
there was no place for us
in a civilised society.
524
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,800
My long service and good conduct
medal was cut off my tunic,
525
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,640
with the biggest set of scissors
you could ever see.
526
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,080
That was it. My time was up.
527
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,760
There was just
no preparation for us.
528
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,040
You were just basically throwing him
on the street to be homeless
529
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,840
with no package to help.
530
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,040
All of a sudden
I didn't have a future,
531
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,320
and I didn't know
where I was going to go.
532
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,640
I had no job. I had nowhere to live.
533
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,080
And so I'd spend the days just
walking the streets of Bristol.
534
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:59,360
My military career was over and
I found my nursing career was over.
535
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,840
I was very, very shell-shocked.
536
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,040
I actually went through
a complete nervous breakdown
537
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,880
and I felt really let down.
Very, very let down.
538
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,000
ROBERT: After my interrogation,
539
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,920
I was administratively dismissed
because of my sexual orientation.
540
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,520
"Services no longer required".
541
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,320
I actually burst out in tears
because it was so painful.
542
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,080
I'd devoted the last 18 years
to the Armed Forces,
543
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,800
and then, suddenly,
it all crashed around me
544
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,240
and I had no concept
of the outside world.
545
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,720
I had to sell my house
and I was living out of my car.
546
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,400
So I felt very, very isolated,
very lonely,
547
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,840
and I had no idea
who I could talk to.
548
00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:06,160
And so I put a letter
into the gay press,
549
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,680
which included my phone number,
550
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,560
for anybody that had been through
similar circumstances.
551
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,960
(PHONE RINGING)
552
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,680
A couple of weeks later,
I was just about to go to bed
553
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:18,440
and my phone rang.
554
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,240
And it was a lady's voice.
555
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,680
She introduced herself as Elaine.
556
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,280
We were on the phone,
I think probably for about two hours
557
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,000
on that first call, because
neither of us had ever spoken
558
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,000
to anyone else about it.
559
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:38,480
You know, it was like, "Wow!"
560
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,280
Suddenly this weight suddenly
started lifting off my shoulders.
561
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,160
It suddenly felt,
"Oh, thank God,
562
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,440
I'm not the only one."
563
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,120
I arranged to come up
to London for a weekend
564
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,600
and I ended up staying with Elaine.
565
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,360
I felt like she was somebody
I'd known half of my life, you know?
566
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,360
And it just felt comfortable.
567
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,880
Love Will Tear Us Apart
568
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaking to Robert was astounding.
569
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,080
And helped me come out,
properly come out to myself.
570
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,920
I thought, "I want to go out
and find other gay people
571
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,080
and see what it's like
and see if I feel at home."
572
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,040
And that's when Robert
and I said, "This is wrong.
573
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,080
We need to do something
about this ban
574
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,600
and support people like ourselves,"
575
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,560
and get the fact of
the ban's existence out
576
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,040
into the public domain,
577
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,280
because we knew most people
didn't know about it.
578
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,000
Eventually,
others started to get in touch,
579
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,000
so we decided we ought
to formalise it a bit more.
580
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,680
I suggested, "Why don't we call
ourselves 'Rank Outsiders',
581
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:54,480
and let's hope one day
it will be 'Insiders'."
582
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,360
Not at that moment in time,
for one minute,
583
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,360
thinking that anything
was going to change.
584
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,800
We were actually now
getting news and information
585
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,560
and being joined by people
who'd in many ways
586
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,920
been treated even worse
than we had.
587
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,480
And that was when we met Mike.
588
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,240
I was 16 and a half when I joined.
589
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:26,800
My grandfather, my father,
590
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,240
they had all served time
in the Royal Air Force.
591
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,520
And I just felt I wanted
to continue that family tradition.
592
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:42,840
But then when I was probably
about 17 and a half, coming up 18,
593
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,760
I realised I was attracted to men.
594
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,120
It was quite confusing.
595
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,400
But I thought, "I can manage this.
596
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,040
I can keep the two lives separate."
597
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,760
598
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,320
So I used to jump on the train
down to London.
599
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,720
And go to gay clubs.
600
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,720
I needed to explore where
these feelings were taking me.
601
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,000
There was some great gay clubs
at the time.
602
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,200
We used to go dancing all night
and just had a damn good time.
603
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,840
604
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,320
But then,
returning back to the base,
605
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:38,760
through the gates...
606
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,120
back into that different character.
607
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,880
At ease!
608
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,480
Straight, masculine.
609
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,120
And I thought it was working.
610
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,080
But I suspect
that I was being watched.
611
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,000
Because they knew everything.
612
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,400
And it was the 17th of March, 1992,
613
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,320
I was coming up to 21,
614
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,720
when the Special Investigators said,
"We are arresting you."
615
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,000
That moment,
I knew it was game up.
616
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,640
My whole life had
just crashed in around me.
617
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,400
I have here a tape that's not
been played in over 30 years,
618
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:38,600
but it's actually the tape
of my Military Police interview.
619
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,640
(ON TAPE)
620
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,480
Thirty years may have passed,
621
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:59,640
but I can remember every detail
as clear as it happened yesterday.
622
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,920
I thought I could be clever
and talk my way out of this
623
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,440
and say it was just a phase
I was going through
624
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,560
and I'm really straight,
625
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,520
with the hope that
I could salvage my career.
626
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,400
Looking back, I just wanted to get
out of that room at all costs.
627
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,000
And I thought.... (SIGHS)
628
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,320
.."I'll just tell him
what he wants to hear,"
629
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,160
thinking that would suffice.
630
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,520
But the questions kept coming...
631
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,200
and they kept coming.
632
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:37,280
He wanted me to say that I'd stuck
this guy's penis in my mouth.
633
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,000
I was destroyed.
634
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,360
It was a complete violation.
635
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,720
I thought he'd finished.
636
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,880
And then he says,
"Tell me about the next time."
637
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,400
And I said, "Like I've just said."
638
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,200
And he wasn't happy
with that answer.
639
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:19,920
He wanted me to go through
the intimate detail
640
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,880
again and again and again.
641
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,440
I was at breaking point, you know?
642
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,840
After the interview,
643
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,280
I was summoned
to the medical officer.
644
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,440
He explained that he had
to conduct an examination
645
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,680
to check for evidence
of anal penetration.
646
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,280
I'd already admitted
that I was gay.
647
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,880
It was just another notch
to make me feel humiliated.
648
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,840
But I was a junior rank
649
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,040
addressing an order
from a senior officer.
650
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,280
So you didn't question it.
651
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,840
He told you what to do
and you did it.
652
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,320
He told me to drop my trousers
and my underwear,
653
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,200
and he conducted
an anal examination.
654
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:40,120
I just shut my eyes
and completely blanked myself out.
655
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,400
It feels like they're raping me.
656
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,240
Now, looking back...
657
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,160
..it...
658
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,000
could be classed as
a sexual assault, definitely.
659
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:16,880
Some years later,
I discovered there's a document
660
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,880
that lays down specific instruction
to medical officers
661
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,000
how to conduct examinations.
662
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,600
And I quote,
663
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,120
"They are to examine
the anus for appearance
664
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,120
of bruising and inflammation,
665
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,320
for size and elasticity."
666
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,800
Basically, evidence
that you've been penetrated.
667
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,080
If people thought
my case was an isolated case,
668
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:54,440
then, clearly, it's not because
it's written down in black and white
669
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,000
that these are the guidelines
they have to follow.
670
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,920
And using such language!
671
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,040
So after the physical examination,
I was awarded 60 days' detention.
672
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,160
It felt like just another
kick in the teeth.
673
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,840
Before you could even take breath,
674
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,240
the drill sergeant was there
yelling at you,
675
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,680
"Get off, Get out!"
676
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:26,440
I was processed and then
the daily beastings kicked in.
677
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,760
But I was subjected to...
678
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,240
..special treatment
because I was gay.
679
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:43,120
I was taken to the latrines
by this drill sergeant.
680
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:49,360
And he stood over me and he said,
681
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,560
You like eating shit, so..."
682
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,280
And he made me clean
the toilet with my toothbrush.
683
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,840
And then...
684
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,480
..I was made
to clean my teeth.
685
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,160
And this went on for 60 days.
686
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,960
That was the end of
my military career.
687
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,960
2nd of November, 1992.
688
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,920
The day I was released,
689
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,200
I didn't know where to go,
what to do.
690
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,000
I had nowhere to live.
691
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,520
The first couple of days
I was sleeping rough.
692
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,120
There was depression,
693
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,920
more depression, drinking.
694
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,880
Suicide thoughts.
695
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,880
And then I was put in contact with
a group called Rank Outsiders.
696
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,600
And they said would I like to come
down and meet up with them
697
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,560
and share my experiences with them?
698
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,920
So when I first met
Robert and Elaine,
699
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:19,280
just being able to know
I was not the only one,
700
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:25,200
it meant quite a lot and got me
through some difficult times.
701
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,960
And, eventually, I started
to give more time to the group.
702
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,160
And to rebuild my life.
703
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,520
ELAINE: In our initial meetings,
we were talking very excitably
704
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,040
about what were we going to be?
Were we going to be an organisation?
705
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:53,720
Were we going to be a support group?
706
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,400
Were we going to be activists?
What was the aim?
707
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,960
We thought it would be great
if we could offer some sort of
708
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,440
contact number
where people could phone us
709
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,600
and we could give them
advice and support.
710
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:14,600
We created our own leaflets
and information.
711
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:18,440
It was all advertised widely
in all the gay press.
712
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,680
We decided we would man it
once a week on a Wednesday
713
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,040
for a couple of hours between
7:00 and 9:00
714
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,600
Outside of that time,
there was an answerphone.
715
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,280
And so there we were,
the first Wednesday.
716
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,640
(CHUCKLES) It was all set up,
ready to go.
717
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,360
We sat there at seven o'clock
and we thought,
718
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,320
"The phone's going to ring."
719
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:51,080
7:30,
"No, the phone's going to ring."
720
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,640
Eight o'clock...
721
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,800
nine o'clock...
722
00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,160
nothing.
723
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,000
Nobody called.
724
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,160
And we felt a bit deflated.
725
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,280
So we packed up and went home.
726
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,160
But the following week,
we came back,
727
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,240
the light was flashing
on the answerphone.
728
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,120
I couldn't believe it.
The answerphone was full.
729
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,160
(LINE RINGING)
730
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,720
When I was dismissed,
I was so depressed,
731
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,240
I went into a dark bubble.
732
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,560
I decided that I was going
to the Tamar Bridge
733
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,240
and was going
to chuck myself off.
734
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,760
But then I phoned
Rank Outsiders organisation
735
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,800
and they said,
"You're not on your own."
736
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,800
This is what we do.
We're a support organisation."
737
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,280
And I thought,
"Right, there is," you know,
738
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,640
"there are people out here
just like me."
739
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,040
Rank Outsiders certainly
saved my life.
740
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,200
Yeah, it did.
741
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,040
I saw a lot of stuff
in the Pink Paper about them,
742
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,480
and, more importantly,
I was able to pass that information
743
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,800
onto isolated friends
and colleagues.
744
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,480
Rank Outsiders was a huge support.
745
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,280
They were there for me
from the very beginning.
746
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,360
And to actually speak to somebody
on the end of the phone, even,
747
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,640
that's been through
what you've been through,
748
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,040
I don't think without them
I would have managed.
749
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,200
Occasionally, I would phone
the Rank Outsiders helpline,
750
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:45,320
but I was absolutely petrified
about phoning it.
751
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:50,040
But also desperate for information.
I wanted to know what was going on.
752
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,280
I wanted to know if there was hope.
753
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,160
But I'd never phone them
from a telephone within
the military dockyard.
754
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,520
I never told them who I was
and I'd never stay on the telephone
755
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:02,560
for longer than three
or four minutes.
756
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,200
(PHONE RINGING)
757
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,280
ROBERT: I was conscious
in the back of my mind that
758
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,480
that somebody might be
listening in
759
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,760
to what was being said
on those phones.
760
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:20,360
We did, frequently, get calls
from people pretending to be gay.
761
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,960
We knew, just from the nature
of the conversation,
762
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,400
that they were SIB.
763
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,120
They were on a fishing trip,
764
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,000
trying to find more victims
so they could go on a witch hunt.
765
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,520
Across the military, there were
hundreds of people involved
766
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,880
in these investigations.
767
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:55,280
Tapping phones, intercepting mail
and secretly filming people.
768
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,000
Such an extraordinary amount
of resource being thrown at it.
769
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,280
I just began to find
the whole experience
770
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,320
of the witch hunts
deeply disturbing.
771
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:14,320
Because, whilst I was
investigating gay people,
772
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,600
I was hiding a secret.
773
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,520
I was living a double life.
774
00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:23,360
I realised I'm a lesbian.
775
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,800
I just felt like walking
on a knife's edge,
776
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,160
because I was in turmoil.
777
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,280
I really thought
I was losing my mind.
778
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,400
I was paranoid.
779
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,680
But eventually,
the whole thing caught up with me,
780
00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:46,360
despite my best intentions
at keeping everything secret.
781
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:51,520
My room was searched and I was then
taken to the interrogation room.
782
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:54,720
Just as I'd done to other people.
783
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,000
Well, I was
dishonourably discharged.
784
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,640
And the shame and the stigma
was overwhelming.
785
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:06,560
But the biggest thing
was the guilt,
786
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,680
the guilt,
and that that's with me still.
787
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:16,040
When I look back, it is hard
to justify being a part of that.
788
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,600
And I was naive,
and I see that with hindsight.
789
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,560
And all I can say is
I was a cog within a machine
790
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,560
that is chewing up gay people.
791
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,880
We're here, we're queer,
get used to it.
792
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,600
(CHEERING)
793
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,200
794
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,520
to make me sweeter...
795
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,080
ELAINE: After a couple of years
as Rank Outsiders,
796
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,440
we decided we needed publicity
to get the ban's existence
797
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,400
out into the public domain,
798
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,760
because most people
didn't know about it.
799
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,000
MIKE: Gay Pride 1993,
800
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:18,200
we produced, at great expense,
our very own Rank Outsiders banner.
801
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,800
And it gave us an opportunity
to be visual.
802
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,240
I didn't know what to expect.
803
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,760
But then gay military personnel
were coming up
804
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,320
and they'd be talking to us.
805
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,680
Some were still serving.
Some paraded in uniform.
806
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:37,480
Some just wore berets.
807
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,160
And that's how we all met Ed.
808
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,280
I was a young naval officer,
809
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,920
and I was sacked because
I told the Navy I was gay.
810
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,200
I couldn't cope with living
this really strange,
811
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,280
complicated double life anymore.
812
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,880
I was jobless.
813
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:05,840
Hadn't come out to my family.
814
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,960
Was in a complete mess with what
I was going to do with my life.
815
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,200
And it was also something
I was still very angry about.
816
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:16,880
And I started thinking,
"So let's try and understand
where this ban came from.
817
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,120
"Did someone sit down one day
and say, 'Let's ban it?'"
818
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,120
Because common sense tells me
that you shouldn't be sacking people
819
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,840
because of who they sleep with.
820
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,400
The ban on gays serving in
the military wasn't just a policy.
821
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,720
It was in law, in the
Armed Forces Discipline Acts.
822
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,040
And so I started doing
a lot of research,
823
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,560
and I discovered that it was
backed up by pages and pages
824
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,120
of confidential
and restricted documents.
825
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:43,360
They say things like,
826
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,520
"The removal of homosexuals
is of vital importance."
827
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,640
They even used phrases like
"sexual deviance"
828
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:56,360
and words like "disgusting",
"infamous" and "immoral".
829
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,240
And also that gay people
were particular targets
830
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,200
for espionage
and could be blackmailed.
831
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,360
But the reason people could be
blackmailed is because of the ban.
832
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,840
If they're outed, they risk ruin,
833
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,560
they risk prison,
they risk being sacked.
834
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,160
It's very clear from the arguments
835
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,760
that these views were held
at the very top of the Armed Forces.
836
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,920
And so once I met Rank Outsiders,
837
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,840
I thought that what we needed
to do was fight to change the law.
838
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:40,400
ELAINE: Ed had an utter conviction
we could mount a legal challenge.
839
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:45,320
But to dare to challenge
the Ministry of Defence is massive.
840
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,440
How are we even going to chip
into that? Where do we begin?
841
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,240
We were amateurs. We had no idea
how to change the law.
842
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,280
We had no budget.
We had nothing.
843
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,960
And we knew that we had to create
this massive legal campaign.
844
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,880
But we couldn't do it alone.
We needed help and support.
845
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,640
And the obvious way to do that
was to win over Stonewall.
846
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,880
When I first met with
Rank Outsiders,
847
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,440
I was horrified by the stories
that I heard.
848
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:21,680
It was just incredible to me
that a state institution
849
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:26,240
that was there to defend us
was behaving in that sort of way.
850
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:30,040
Stonewall had become
the first high-profile
851
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,840
lesbian and gay rights lobbying
organisation in the UK.
852
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,880
And so I asked,
"How do we take this to court?"
853
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,760
Mounting a big legal campaign,
normally,
854
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,480
would cost hundreds and hundreds
of thousands of pounds.
855
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,560
But Stonewall was powerful because
856
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,960
we had lots of allies
in the legal profession
857
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,320
who believed in the cause.
858
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,200
The claimants came to see me.
859
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,600
They wanted to know whether
they had a case,
860
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,440
and I thought we had
a very strong argument.
861
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,440
You were dismissed because
of your sexual orientation,
862
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,840
even though that had
no impact whatsoever
863
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,200
on your performance of your job.
864
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,640
I thought, personally,
this was outrageous.
865
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:18,320
David Pannick was the greatest
human rights lawyer that we had.
866
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,520
And so he was making a big statement
867
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:25,840
that he felt this case was important
and he wanted to change things.
868
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,320
David Pannick thought
we had a very strong case,
869
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,080
but also he said taking
the government to court
870
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:34,800
is really difficult.
871
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,080
You can't just go on your own
to court and argue,
872
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,120
"I was sacked, it was unfair."
873
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,440
So what we needed to do
was present four test cases
874
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,560
who were human beings,
who had stories to tell.
875
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:49,840
This isn't just about
a piece of dry law.
876
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,080
This is about people's lives.
877
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,440
It was vital that
in each of these cases,
878
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,280
nothing could be said
to establish
879
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,360
that their sexual orientation
had had any effect
880
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,680
upon their military career,
upon their record.
881
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,800
I got a phone call from
Angela Mason from Stonewall
882
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:17,080
to say that I was actually going
to be the first test case
883
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,360
to go through the courts.
884
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,960
I just didn't want anybody else
to have to go through
885
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,600
what I went through.
886
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,640
I was really quite excited,
but also terrified.
887
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,240
ED: Eventually,
we settled on Jeanette Smith,
888
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,360
who'd been an nurse,
889
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,960
John Beckett, who'd been
a young Royal Navy sailor,
890
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:39,400
Graham Grady, who'd served in
the RAF and in intelligence roles,
891
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:43,600
and the final test case was
Duncan Lustig-Prean,
892
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,040
the young naval officer
who was destined,
893
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,600
according to all his reports,
to much higher things,
894
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,800
but again,
job lost because he was gay.
895
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,640
Duncan was probably
the most senior person
896
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,680
that we'd been involved with.
A large, impressive figure.
897
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,480
I joined the Navy in 1979.
898
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:13,360
I joined as an ordinary sailor and
ended up as a lieutenant commander.
899
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:21,560
Most of my career was spent on board
frigates and destroyers at sea.
900
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,000
It was at the height
of the Cold War,
901
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:30,920
so we were chasing Soviet submarines
in British waters.
902
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:36,400
I was responsible for clearing mines
in the Falkland Islands.
903
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,440
The job we were doing was
important and valuable.
904
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,400
But I found myself in
this sort of awful position.
905
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,200
Because I was gay.
906
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,680
I knew that if I was caught,
907
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:55,720
I would be arrested and questioned
and investigated.
908
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,160
I was constantly thinking,
"What if I make a mistake?
909
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:01,680
"What if someone finds out?"
910
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:03,440
(HORN SOUNDS)
911
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,640
When we sailed for
the Falkland Islands,
912
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:08,680
all the families gathered
on Portsmouth Harbour,
913
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,400
but my boyfriend would be hidden,
914
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,720
and I would just discreetly wave
to him and he would wave to me.
915
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:20,400
At sea I would write letters
addressed to "Dear P"
916
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:24,000
or "Dear Phil", or, more often,
"Dear Phyllis".
917
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,520
Instead of saying, "I love you,"
918
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,320
I'd sign it, "I'm on extension 143".
919
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:35,120
"I love you".
920
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,520
So I'd served for 15 years,
921
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:41,040
and even though I was leading
a double life,
922
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:44,640
I saw nothing else
but to stay in the Navy.
923
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,440
But then it all changed.
924
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:58,520
There was a knock on the door
and there was a message.
925
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:02,280
"Someone has been calling repeatedly
926
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,880
asking for you to ring them,
927
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,560
but not from the ship."
928
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,440
And this was really unusual.
929
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:15,440
I left the dockyard.
930
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:18,680
And I made a phone call
from a phone box.
931
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:24,000
He answered very quickly,
told him who I was.
932
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,800
And he said...
(OVER PHONE) .."I want to meet you."
933
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,400
"Why? Who are you?
I don't know who you are."
934
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:36,920
"I want to meet you."
935
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:38,280
"What's all this about?"
936
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:40,160
I don't go driving
around the country
937
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,520
meeting people
I've never met before.
938
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,240
"It's about your double life."
939
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,120
I knew what that was about.
940
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,800
You know,
everything that I'd feared.
941
01:05:54,880 --> 01:06:01,200
I drove out of Portsmouth
and I got to London.
942
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,800
And at 12:30,
I arrived in the meeting point.
943
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,440
And I asked him, "What do you want?"
944
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,920
He said, "I know that you're gay."
945
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:26,640
"If you make it worth my while,
I'll keep quiet about it."
946
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,160
Inside, my heart was pounding
947
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:35,320
and my hands were clammy
and I was scared.
948
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,400
But this was something
I had rehearsed
949
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,600
in my mind over and over again.
950
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:46,480
"What if I was caught out?"
"What if someone discovered it?"
951
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:48,760
"What if someone tried
to blackmail me?"
952
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:53,040
Although I'd loved my career,
953
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:55,920
there was no way that I was going
to be blackmailed.
954
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:57,400
And I said to him...
955
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,040
.."You can fuck off."
956
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,880
"Because before you get anywhere
near the Military Police,
957
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,200
I will have told them about
this conversation."
958
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:16,320
In the morning I walked
into Special Investigation Branch
959
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,960
and the person I spoke to,
actually, someone I knew.
960
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,840
It was,
"Duncan, great to hear from you!"
961
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:26,200
How are you, mate?
How can I help you? What's wrong?"
962
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,200
"Someone's trying to blackmail me."
963
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:34,280
"Give me the bugger's name.
We'll sort him out for you.
964
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,600
Why is he trying to blackmail you?"
965
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,280
And I took a deep breath
and I said, "Because I'm gay."
966
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,840
And there was this long pause,
and he...
967
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,760
the smile just vanished
from his face.
968
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,760
"Well, in that case,
you're not obliged to say anything,
969
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,920
but anything you do say
may be taken down in evidence."
970
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:03,600
Opposite his office
was an interview room.
971
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,960
And we started
that taped interview.
972
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,480
Although I tried to say,
"Yes, I have told you that I'm gay,
973
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,320
that's all you need to know,"
974
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,560
they seemed to be more interested
in asking questions
975
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,680
about anyone else in the forces
who's gay.
976
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,880
Well, I wasn't going
to go there for them.
977
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:28,800
They also asked about
the blackmailer.
978
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:31,920
He, apparently,
had gone to them several times
979
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:34,200
and outed people to them.
980
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,400
If I blackmailed someone,
I'd go to prison.
981
01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:39,280
But no,
he was useful to the military.
982
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:41,440
He outed gay people.
983
01:08:41,480 --> 01:08:43,800
And so nothing ever happened to him.
984
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,640
I was discharged. I was trembling.
985
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,440
It was goodbye.
986
01:08:54,480 --> 01:08:56,640
It was goodbye to the Navy.
987
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,480
It had been a fabulous job. Erm...
988
01:09:04,480 --> 01:09:06,120
It was over.
989
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:14,120
It was the beginning of 1995
when I was finally dismissed
990
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:18,840
and at the same time Rank Outsiders
selected me as a test case.
991
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:26,560
The purpose of the test cases
was to get the strongest arguments
992
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,400
in front of the court,
to get the ban lifted.
993
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:32,880
But it was very clear that
the Ministry of Defence
994
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,400
was already campaigning
quite vociferously against us.
995
01:09:35,440 --> 01:09:38,960
The overwhelming majority
of members of the Armed Forces
996
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:43,800
do not want to have active
homosexuals in their ranks...
997
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,920
ANGELA: The establishment,
I felt, were against us.
998
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:49,760
It was something of
a David-and-Goliath situation.
999
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:51,560
(OFFICER BARKS ORDERS)
1000
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:55,920
As one of the four test cases,
it got more and more intimidating
1001
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,200
and a lot more scary
the closer we got.
1002
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:04,600
We were taking on the state,
so the stakes were incredibly high,
1003
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,760
but so were the costs
to the victims of this policy.
1004
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:16,880
So this was a huge moment
for all of us.
1005
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:26,880
REPORTER:
The three men and a woman
1006
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,080
bringing this landmark
legal challenge
1007
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,320
all automatically lost their jobs
1008
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,720
once their homosexuality
became known...
1009
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,000
I remember the day we arrived
at the High Court,
1010
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,040
thinking,
"Oh, I need to pinch myself.
1011
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,720
Is this real? We're now actually
fighting our battle."
1012
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:46,920
ROBERT: Going to the High Court
was a strange experience.
1013
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,240
You're even worried
if your shoes squeak.
1014
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:54,280
DUNCAN: The case started
and in came the judges.
1015
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:59,520
The Ministry of Defence had
numerous barristers, solicitors.
1016
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,960
We just had a tiny team
and very meagre resources.
1017
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,520
We were really fighting
against the odds.
1018
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,000
To win our case in court
we had to prove
1019
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,640
that what the Government was doing
was irrational.
1020
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,440
Not just that it wasn't fair,
but that it's bonkers.
1021
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,080
Our main arguments were very simple,
1022
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:22,520
that the policy was wrong,
that it was unfair,
1023
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:23,760
that it was unjust.
1024
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,120
This was really a disguised,
or not very disguised,
1025
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:29,320
form of prejudice.
1026
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:32,680
This is extraordinary in the 1990s.
1027
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,560
We're not talking about the 1890s.
1028
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:39,320
DUNCAN:
The Ministry of Defence then argued
1029
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,760
gay people in the Armed Forces
could be blackmailed,
1030
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,760
thus everybody who was gay
was a security risk.
1031
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,320
But David Pannick was like a tiger.
He jumped on every point.
1032
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:56,640
He started talking about me
and he asked the question,
1033
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,880
"Why is he a security risk,
1034
01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:03,760
if the moment a blackmailer
approaches him, he reports it?"
1035
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,360
"The only reason he's a security
risk is because you make him one."
1036
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:11,920
When the judges retired,
1037
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,080
it was extraordinary to realise
that it's just these three men
1038
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,960
that are going to make a decision
whether we've won or lost.
1039
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,720
There was this slimmest
of possibilities
1040
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,840
that these law lords
would see sense and go,
1041
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,680
"Ban over. Problem solved." Wow!
1042
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:30,760
So I was really optimistic.
1043
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,240
And I thought,
based on what I'd heard,
1044
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:34,680
that we had to win.
1045
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,920
Lawyers representing three
former servicemen and one woman
1046
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,200
who were sacked because
they were gay
1047
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:52,960
accused the military authorities
1048
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,400
of pandering to irrational
prejudice and intolerance.
1049
01:12:56,440 --> 01:13:00,840
The MOD argues that homosexuality
is incompatible with service life.
1050
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,000
So once we learn
that the judgment's ready,
1051
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:08,520
we all troop back
into the courtroom.
1052
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:15,640
Lord Justice Simon Brown began
by saying that Lawrence of Arabia,
1053
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:17,360
who, of course, was gay,
1054
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:21,440
would not be welcome
in the Armed Forces of today.
1055
01:13:21,480 --> 01:13:23,560
And that signalled to us
that he found this
1056
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:24,920
an extraordinary policy.
1057
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:30,200
It was unbelievable in the way
that it attacked the Ministry.
1058
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:34,720
I was really optimistic.
1059
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:36,760
I thought,
based on what I had heard,
1060
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:38,560
that we had to win.
1061
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,760
Lord Justice Simon Brown
ended by expressing the view
1062
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,200
that the tide of history
was against such a policy.
1063
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:52,120
ELAINE: It sounded like they might
have made the right decision to say,
1064
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:54,480
"You know what?
We're going to stop this."
1065
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,480
But he said "with regret,
1066
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:00,440
and he made it clear
it was with regret,
1067
01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:02,840
that he couldn't do
anything about it.
1068
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,160
And I was just...
1069
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,600
I couldn't believe it.
1070
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,080
I sat there devastated.
1071
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:18,400
After what the judge had
to say in the judgment,
1072
01:14:18,440 --> 01:14:20,720
which gave us so much hope,
1073
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,920
it was, of course,
crushing for the whole team.
1074
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:27,720
(PRESS CLAMOURING)
1075
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:29,520
REPORTER:
They left court disappointed.
1076
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,760
Jeanette Smith, Graham Brady,
John Beckett and Duncan Lustig-Prean
1077
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:37,240
lost their case when the judge
said there was no contravention
1078
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,600
of European or domestic law.
1079
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:44,920
The law was not on our side.
1080
01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:51,480
We would have to fight another day.
1081
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:02,440
We increasingly felt that as normal
people in normal society moved on
1082
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:05,040
and got to see lesbians and gay men,
1083
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:08,240
got to see characters
in soap operas and the like,
1084
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,080
in the forces,
that was still a world apart.
1085
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,680
So people were still forced
to live a secret life...
1086
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,040
..or to chuck their career in.
1087
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,160
We were not going to give up.
1088
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,280
We were going to make sure that
as many people as possible
1089
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:30,720
would know about it.
1090
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:32,560
And we were going to get
that story out there.
1091
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:35,400
REPORTER: Elaine Chambers
lost her job as an Army nurse
1092
01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:37,960
after an investigation
into her sexuality.
1093
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,280
For no reason that affects our work,
1094
01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:43,840
our sexuality is considered enough
to absolutely ruin our lives
1095
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,880
and just take everything
away from us.
1096
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:49,680
From small acorns grow mighty oaks.
1097
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,160
And by the mid-'90s,
1098
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:55,880
there was a big media campaign
around us.
1099
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:59,080
That guy has just lost his career
and his job for being gay.
1100
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,800
REPORTER: Edmond Hall
was dismissed from the Navy
1101
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,280
after revealing
he was homosexual.
1102
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:07,040
If we could keep this
on the front pages
1103
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,520
and as a big news story,
1104
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:15,040
we can win over public opinion by
putting pressure on the Government.
1105
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:17,480
But it became really obvious
that the Ministry of Defence
1106
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,640
was going to fight this
at every stage, tooth and nail.
1107
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:24,560
We are not, I repeat,
not prepared
1108
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:29,000
to allow the effectiveness and
fighting power of our Armed Forces
1109
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,880
who YOU expect to go out
and lay their lives on the line
1110
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:34,800
on a pretty regular basis
1111
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:38,240
in the interests of this country
to be compromised in any way.
1112
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:40,720
Put all these things together,
and, quite candidly,
1113
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,040
homosexuality is incompatible
with good military discipline
1114
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:45,800
and a cohesive unit...
1115
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,440
On some of these programmes,
the team set us up against people
1116
01:16:49,480 --> 01:16:52,040
with total opposite views to ours.
1117
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,320
But sometimes I found myself
becoming very, very angry.
1118
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:59,520
I served nearly 20 years.
I spent five days under arrest.
1119
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,240
I was interviewed by the SIB
in great depth.
1120
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,240
I still suffer mentally
from that torture now.
1121
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:09,720
HOST: Henry?
I have no comment on this.
1122
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:12,840
There were a lot of
high-ranking people who believed
1123
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,680
that "the rank and file
would not tolerate these people
1124
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,480
and they would all leave
if you made them serve with them."
1125
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,960
I think most red-blooded males,
and I count myself among them,
1126
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,440
are repelled by the physical genital
activities of these people.
1127
01:17:25,480 --> 01:17:29,280
It was put very well to me by
a Royal Marine not very long ago,
1128
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:32,760
who summed it up by saying
that men don't like taking showers
1129
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:35,840
with men who like taking showers
with men.
1130
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,400
The bigotry in the homophobic
remarks that these...
1131
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:43,720
..generals and air chief marshals
were making,
1132
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:45,240
it was disgusting.
1133
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:48,600
ED: And then we started
to hear about
1134
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:50,360
another thing
that was happening.
1135
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:54,320
The Ministry of Defence was working
on its own secret weapon.
1136
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:56,360
There's a report
coming out tomorrow,
1137
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:58,520
and I think I can tell you
in advance
1138
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,000
that it will show that
the vast majority
1139
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:04,000
of the Armed Forces believe
that it would not be good
1140
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:07,040
for their discipline
or their fighting power.
1141
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:11,960
In 1996 I was asked to undertake
1142
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:15,600
an investigation into
the military case
1143
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,520
for retaining the ban
on homosexuals,
1144
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:20,320
and the team was called
1145
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:22,840
the Homosexuality Policy
Assessment Team,
1146
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:24,320
or "H-PAT".
1147
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:28,200
We were military practitioners
from all three services,
1148
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:30,120
plus a psychologist.
1149
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:34,680
We sat down trying to come up
with the clearest questions
1150
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:37,080
which would get
to the underlying issues.
1151
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:47,960
Questions about accommodation,
living on top of each other,
1152
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,320
sharing sleeping bags
and showers and things.
1153
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:56,840
So we sent out questionnaires.
1154
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,360
We conducted hundreds or maybe
thousands of interviews.
1155
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,080
We ran focus groups.
1156
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:12,680
And when the results came back,
I was somewhat surprised by that.
1157
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:17,520
I didn't expect opinions to be
so unified and so decisive.
1158
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:23,200
Senior officers, junior officers,
service people at all ranks
1159
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:26,360
felt that the introduction
to openly acknowledge homosexuals
1160
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:28,960
would be divisive
and polarising
1161
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,720
and would create problems
for discipline and cohesion.
1162
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:36,240
That was a major concern.
1163
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:43,120
So the conclusion was the vast
majority of servicemen and women
1164
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:45,280
did not want the ban to change.
1165
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:54,720
This document is page after page
of adverse comment.
1166
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:59,040
The report highlighted undoubtedly
1167
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:02,960
attitudes that were prevalent
in the Armed Forces at the time,
1168
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:06,880
which we felt was just
hostility and homophobia.
1169
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:11,560
And yet those comments appear
in this report unchallenged
1170
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:14,800
because the Ministry of Defence
wanted to use them
1171
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:18,080
as evidence to justify
this policy.
1172
01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:25,080
The report also contains
some of the methods
1173
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:27,680
with which homosexuals
could be attacked.
1174
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,920
"Premeditated attacks
while sleeping".
1175
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,560
"Striking sleepers
with hard objects in towels".
1176
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:37,760
"Blows with Samson bars".
1177
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,040
It's shocking to think
that the Ministry of Defence
1178
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:41,800
produced a report that says
1179
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:44,240
I shouldn't be able
to serve in the Navy
1180
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:48,480
because if I do, colleagues
in the Navy will try and beat me up.
1181
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:53,920
These are things that are produced
as evidence in this report
1182
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:57,880
to explain why gays shouldn't be
able to serve, for their own good.
1183
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:01,440
Well, as I say, I was surprised.
1184
01:21:01,480 --> 01:21:04,120
Shocked, a bit.
1185
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:08,320
But remember, we were talking only
about hypothetical violence.
1186
01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:13,280
But it was an indicator of a level
of dislike and detestation
1187
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,160
that should be registered.
1188
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:26,640
I can't be indifferent to
the human costs of that policy.
1189
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:32,480
Which we mentioned in the report
and we knew
1190
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:35,320
ruined the careers
of entirely decent people.
1191
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:41,400
But it was a reasonable expectation
that a defence ministry
1192
01:21:41,440 --> 01:21:43,520
in a democratic country could ask
1193
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:46,200
for this kind of investigation
to be done.
1194
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:51,440
The purpose of that report,
as far as I'm concerned,
1195
01:21:51,480 --> 01:21:55,000
was simply to provide
a modicum of justification,
1196
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,440
a fig leaf, if you like,
for this ridiculous ban.
1197
01:21:58,480 --> 01:22:00,120
Following this report,
1198
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:02,600
the Ministry of Defence
were hoping and hoping
1199
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,400
that perhaps we'd give up the fight.
1200
01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:06,080
We weren't going to.
1201
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,920
We decided to open
our second battle front
1202
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:12,920
and take the action to Parliament.
1203
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:15,440
REPORTER: Every five years,
Parliament gets the chance
1204
01:22:15,480 --> 01:22:19,760
to inspect the services when it
considers a new Armed Forces Bill.
1205
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:22,840
This year's review of the military
has been dominated by the row
1206
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,680
over the right of homosexuals
to serve in the forces.
1207
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:29,480
The Armed Forces have different
laws to everyone else.
1208
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:31,440
They have the Armed Forces
Discipline Act,
1209
01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:33,840
and every five years
they get renewed.
1210
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:38,520
So the House of Commons Select
Committee was going to meet
1211
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:42,600
in 1996 and decide
what needed to be updated.
1212
01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:45,520
We were all fingers crossed
that the MPs were going to say
1213
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:49,760
Ministry of Defence is out of date.
It's time for this to change.
1214
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,840
I was just thinking parliament,
MPs, the Select Committee,
1215
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,240
just do what you need to do.
Just do it.
1216
01:22:56,280 --> 01:22:59,440
Bite the bullet, sort this out
and it will be over,
1217
01:22:59,480 --> 01:23:02,080
and we'll be out of your hair
and you can get on with your lives
1218
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:04,160
and we can get on with ours.
1219
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:10,000
Introduce yourself and your team.
My name is Angela Mason.
1220
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:12,960
I'm the executive director
of Stonewall.
1221
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:14,560
It was quite nerve-wracking.
1222
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:17,880
There was all the government
officials and military officials
1223
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:20,240
and parliamentary officials
and the press.
1224
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,880
I mean, it was another
big theatrical occasion.
1225
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:27,920
The members of the committee have
talked to scores of servicemen,
1226
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:30,520
and we've formed our own view
made in this report,
1227
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:33,280
which is that servicemen
are overwhelmingly
1228
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:35,960
opposed to homosexuality.
Are you saying that's not correct?
1229
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:39,960
To our horror, the Select Committee
gave particular prominence
1230
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:45,000
to the H-PAT report and to all
the negative arguments.
1231
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:50,640
This, clearly, may well have
a morale impact on the Armed Forces.
1232
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:55,840
It very quickly became clear
that the machinery of government,
1233
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,520
the Ministry of Defence,
was determined that we wouldn't win.
1234
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:03,680
I believe that the military are not
seeking to discriminate against you.
1235
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,240
But on the other hand,
it seems that perhaps
1236
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:10,600
you expect positive discrimination
in your favour.
1237
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:15,920
Do you accept the right of a woman
to refuse to shower with a lesbian?
1238
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:21,760
I felt the MPs on the committee
weren't all that sympathetic.
1239
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,640
The theatre of it was kind of
rigged against us.
1240
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,680
I just wonder if
your organisation recognises
1241
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:33,560
that some people regard
homosexual acts as immoral
1242
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:36,920
or whether you recognise
that some people feel that way.
1243
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:41,160
They were just absolutely convinced
that homosexuality would affect
1244
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:43,000
the security of the Armed Forces,
1245
01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:45,880
the fighting capability
of the Armed Forces.
1246
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:48,720
It is quite difficult
to manage the time...
1247
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:51,640
I thought the MPs were pretty
appalling, to be honest.
1248
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:53,600
Thank you very much for coming.
1249
01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:57,520
They went off to vote, and within
the week we had the result.
1250
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:00,800
REPORTER: A special Commons
committee set up to examine the bill
1251
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:03,160
decided to back
the Ministry of Defence's
1252
01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:05,840
current ban on gays
and lesbians.
1253
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:10,320
This is a clear analysis that
the admission of homosexuals
1254
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:13,720
to the Armed Forces would undermine
the cohesion,
1255
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:16,800
the morale and the fighting power
of our Armed Forces,
1256
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:18,120
which are a unique asset.
1257
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:19,800
The House of Commons
Select Committee
1258
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:22,920
was another one of those moments
when the ban could have been lifted,
1259
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:25,160
and, sadly, they didn't.
1260
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:32,360
I remember feelings
of enormous disappointment
1261
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:35,640
that our parliamentary system
had failed.
1262
01:25:37,480 --> 01:25:42,040
We felt that we were being
left behind by the bigotry
1263
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:44,200
and the homophobia that the
establishment
1264
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:45,920
was still showing towards us.
1265
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:52,120
Quite a few of the campaigners
like me,
1266
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:56,680
who'd been there at the beginning,
began to run out of steam.
1267
01:25:58,480 --> 01:26:02,520
DUNCAN: But we had to keep going.
We had to keep going for others
1268
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:04,800
because there were a lot of
people getting hurt.
1269
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:20,080
In April 1997, I was asked
to go to the RAF police.
1270
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:27,600
And they just asked me, "SSE Austin,
do you have homosexual tendencies?"
1271
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:30,200
Literally burst into tears,
1272
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,560
I answered the question for them,
1273
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:37,560
and within minutes,
seconds probably,
1274
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:42,360
they'd already explained to me
that I was no longer fit for purpose
1275
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:44,480
and I was incompatible
to service life.
1276
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:49,760
I had exemplary service.
1277
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:53,080
I'd been mentioned in the Queen's
Birthday honours list in 1996
1278
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,520
with the Commander in Chief's
commendation,
1279
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,560
but I was kicked out for being gay.
1280
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:00,360
I could have gone
to military prison.
1281
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:03,080
That was the same year when
Tony Blair came to power
1282
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:04,840
with New Labour.
1283
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:08,560
Princess Diana died.
It's not that long ago.
1284
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:15,040
We knew that we couldn't go
any further in the UK law courts.
1285
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:18,280
It had gone as far as it could go,
but we were not going to give up.
1286
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:21,080
We had one last throw of the dice.
1287
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:23,200
And that was to follow
the cases all the way
1288
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:26,840
to the European Court
of Human Rights in Strasbourg.
1289
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:30,000
REPORTER: Former service personnel
sacked for being gay
1290
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:31,960
have been going to
the British courts for years
1291
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:33,960
to try to have the ban overturned.
1292
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:36,160
But because it's an issue
of human rights,
1293
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:39,120
it's the European courts
that will eventually decide.
1294
01:27:39,160 --> 01:27:41,960
By the time we got to
the European Court of Human Rights,
1295
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:44,880
we'd been fighting this for years.
1296
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:48,920
We were all exhausted.
1297
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:52,320
But there was this last-gasp battle
that we can fight.
1298
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:59,680
On the day, we have 30 minutes
to present our oral argument,
1299
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:01,600
and that's not a long period
of time.
1300
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:08,280
It's a very short hearing, and it
was not a foregone conclusion
1301
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:11,120
because former
Soviet Union countries
1302
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:13,160
had joined that court,
1303
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:16,080
that they were going to be
more conservative attitudes
1304
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,440
than we'd seen before.
1305
01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:21,280
I declare open the present hearing
1306
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:24,880
before the European Court
of Human Rights.
1307
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:28,720
One judge looked very unhappy
during my presentation,
1308
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:30,320
and he said to me,
1309
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:35,400
"Well, what would happen if one
of your clients was on manoeuvres
1310
01:28:35,440 --> 01:28:38,000
and they had to go up a mountain
1311
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:43,120
and they all had to huddle together
for warmth? What then?"
1312
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,240
And my co-counsel
whispered to me,
1313
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:49,000
"Tell him that
if it was that cold,
1314
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,960
the last thing they want to do
was get their dick out."
1315
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:59,640
And I gave the judges an expurgated
version of that answer.
1316
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:08,280
And then it was over,
and we waited for their judgment.
1317
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:13,560
You never know what the dynamics
of the court are going to be
1318
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:15,280
and until you get the judgment,
1319
01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:18,000
there's always a sense of danger,
jeopardy.
1320
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:26,960
I, like a number of people,
had gone to Stonewall's offices.
1321
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:29,360
We'd been told that the verdict
1322
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:32,080
was going to come through
later that day.
1323
01:29:34,480 --> 01:29:37,000
We were all stood around
the fax machine,
1324
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:39,920
cos we knew it was going
to come in on the fax.
1325
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,360
And I remember feeling
very, very stressed.
1326
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:49,840
ED: I'm always an optimist,
1327
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:52,680
but based on what
had happened before,
1328
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:55,480
the odds were absolutely
stacked against us.
1329
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:03,680
DUNCAN:
Slowly, these pages came through.
1330
01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:08,520
Lots and lots of legal preamble.
1331
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:14,000
ELAINE: My heart was pounding,
guts churning.
1332
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,560
Because of the horrors
of what we'd all been through,
1333
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:21,520
this moment was so massive.
1334
01:30:23,440 --> 01:30:26,640
MIKE: It was eight years
to get to this point.
1335
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,600
We'd been used to being rejected
time and time again.
1336
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,480
You know, dare we believe in hope?
1337
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:38,640
Somebody picked it up
and read it out to everybody,
1338
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:40,680
otherwise it would have
been torn to pieces.
1339
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,400
And it was almost the last page
that made it clear,
1340
01:30:44,440 --> 01:30:47,880
there was this moment of disbelief.
1341
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:49,880
And then finally...
1342
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:52,120
Bang! "We've got it!"
1343
01:30:54,480 --> 01:30:56,880
The judges had ruled
in our favour.
1344
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:02,760
I just went, "Whoa-ho-ho!
1345
01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:05,920
It's happened at last!
They've bloody well done it!
1346
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:07,280
I can't believe it!"
1347
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:09,720
REPORTER:
Joy among gay rights campaigners
1348
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:12,800
as the news comes through to the
London headquarters of Stonewall.
1349
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:16,320
It was the unanimous verdict
that Britain's ban on gays serving
1350
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:18,280
was discriminatory and illegal...
1351
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:23,800
We just thought, "God, we did it!
We did it. This thing, it's gone."
1352
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:27,280
No one was ever, ever going
to go through...
1353
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:30,320
Oh, here I go again!
..what we'd been through.
1354
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:33,720
And I remember turning round
to Elaine and saying,
1355
01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:37,640
"So we can change it to
'Rank Insiders' now?" (CHUCKLES)
1356
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:40,480
REPORTER: There are many
within the armed forces
1357
01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:42,720
who are horrified
by today's decisions.
1358
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:45,680
Generals have actively lobbied
ministers for years
1359
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:48,160
to keep gays out of the military,
1360
01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:51,760
but these judges have said
it is nothing but prejudice.
1361
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:57,280
The Government cannot
enforce this ban,
1362
01:31:57,320 --> 01:31:59,600
given this very clear
and damning judgement.
1363
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,120
REPORTER: Within two hours,
the Defence Secretary declared
1364
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:05,040
Britain would accept the verdict
and immediately halted
1365
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:07,680
all disciplinary proceedings
based on sexuality.
1366
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:10,720
DUNCAN: This was the proudest
moment of my life.
1367
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:14,280
We had taken on the Government
and the Ministry of Defence
1368
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:15,960
and we won.
1369
01:32:17,480 --> 01:32:22,000
We made history.
We made history, that team.
1370
01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:26,360
It had an impact not just on us
and the armed forces,
1371
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:30,240
but upon every single employer
in Europe,
1372
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:33,560
because at last there was
a piece of legislation
1373
01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:37,520
that said you may not
discriminate against someone
1374
01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:39,880
just because
they're lesbian or gay.
1375
01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:54,160
(RADIO) The Government has just
announced an independent review
1376
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:59,200
with careers destroyed overnight.
The losses were huge.
1377
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:01,840
The Government hopes the review
will go some way
1378
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:04,080
to righting the wrongs
of the past.
1379
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:09,280
LGBTQ-plus veterans say the damage
can never be fully repaired.
1380
01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:11,920
After a great deal of work
campaigning,
1381
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:15,400
the independent review
was announced in January 2022.
1382
01:33:15,440 --> 01:33:19,640
Over a thousand people stepped
forward to give evidence.
1383
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,560
What the independent review,
I hope, succeeds in doing
1384
01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:26,720
is pulling out the reality now
1385
01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:30,200
of what really happened in the
Government's name with that ban.
1386
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:33,800
You know, what it did to people,
the damage it did that's lifelong.
1387
01:33:37,480 --> 01:33:40,160
People lost their homes.
People lost their pensions.
1388
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:42,400
People went to prison.
1389
01:33:42,440 --> 01:33:46,520
It's had a big impact
on me psychologically.
1390
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:50,680
A lot of mental scars
and flashbacks.
1391
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:53,840
It has a lot to answer for.
1392
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:59,080
If I'm honest,
I would say it took me years
1393
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:02,080
to rebuild my life
after discharge.
1394
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:06,200
We have a gross injustice
which we need to undo,
1395
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:09,400
and there are people out there
still hurting.
1396
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:13,160
I loved being in the Army,
1397
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:17,000
and it was taken away
and it's never been replaced.
1398
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:21,720
From that point of view,
my life is empty and remains empty.
1399
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:29,040
ELAINE: It's 23 years
after the ban was lifted.
1400
01:34:29,080 --> 01:34:31,720
I'm in my 60s
and I'm still battling
1401
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:34,960
for some form of proper apology
and recompense.
1402
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:38,840
I don't think I'll ever
fully get over it.
1403
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:42,640
The best and most wonderful
moments of my life
1404
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:45,000
mixed in with the most hideous.
1405
01:34:46,240 --> 01:34:48,000
And there's still this anger.
1406
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:52,360
I don't think I can move on from it,
even if I want to.
1407
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:55,200
No, I...
Yeah, it'll always be there.
1408
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:46,720
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