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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:01:10,538 --> 00:01:13,974 - You're gonna be all right, mate. - They're in there! Others. 2 00:01:37,625 --> 00:01:39,753 They're in there! Others. 3 00:01:45,830 --> 00:01:48,026 Clear! Clear! 4 00:01:51,901 --> 00:01:53,131 Clear! 5 00:02:14,384 --> 00:02:16,580 This one's still alive. Get a medic! 6 00:02:27,361 --> 00:02:30,353 In this country, although we pride ourselves on our freedom of speech, 7 00:02:30,430 --> 00:02:32,591 it is not an enshrined right. 8 00:02:33,832 --> 00:02:36,358 Now, Shelby Brookes was correctly convicted 9 00:02:36,435 --> 00:02:40,302 for stirring up hatred against persons on religious grounds, 10 00:02:40,370 --> 00:02:44,465 contrary to the Public Order Act 1986, Section 29, 11 00:02:44,540 --> 00:02:49,534 as inserted by the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. 12 00:02:50,111 --> 00:02:52,670 The evidence presented at this trial 13 00:02:52,746 --> 00:02:56,807 clearly demonstrates that he intended to stir up such hatred. 14 00:02:58,016 --> 00:03:01,350 And in one particularly offensive passage, and I quote, 15 00:03:02,619 --> 00:03:04,815 "Islam is a backward religion. 16 00:03:04,888 --> 00:03:07,721 "It's highly dangerous and intolerant. 17 00:03:07,790 --> 00:03:10,486 "Everyone knows it, but we're becoming a state 18 00:03:10,559 --> 00:03:13,927 "where ordinary British people are scared to take action..." 19 00:03:13,995 --> 00:03:16,793 "like proper citizens." Unquote. 20 00:03:17,630 --> 00:03:19,758 Now, these words may seem harmless, 21 00:03:19,833 --> 00:03:22,131 but spoken at the end of a rally in Bradford, 22 00:03:22,201 --> 00:03:24,999 they were deliberately provocative 23 00:03:25,069 --> 00:03:26,935 and led to rioting. 24 00:03:30,540 --> 00:03:33,667 I'm Sir Ian Rochester, Permanent Secretary of the DCA. 25 00:03:33,742 --> 00:03:34,743 Thanks. 26 00:03:35,044 --> 00:03:39,174 Now, I ask you to give proper weight to the statutory protections, 27 00:03:39,247 --> 00:03:41,613 as inserted by 29j of the Act. 28 00:03:42,049 --> 00:03:44,109 This guarantees that none of the provisions 29 00:03:44,183 --> 00:03:46,675 to which Sir Alan has directed Your Lordships 30 00:03:46,753 --> 00:03:51,280 can ever be interpreted in such a way as to prohibit or restrict discussion, 31 00:03:51,355 --> 00:03:55,086 criticism, ridicule or even abuse of particular religions 32 00:03:55,158 --> 00:03:57,888 or the beliefs of their adherents. 33 00:03:58,894 --> 00:04:02,126 Attacking an individual, that is a different matter. 34 00:04:02,764 --> 00:04:04,665 Shelby Brookes didn't do that. 35 00:04:04,999 --> 00:04:08,195 He has a protected right, like every other person, 36 00:04:08,267 --> 00:04:12,897 to challenge or condemn any belief system or religion. 37 00:04:13,204 --> 00:04:18,301 Despite legislation put in place to protect his right to criticise ideas, 38 00:04:18,375 --> 00:04:21,832 the police chose to be provocative in arresting him. 39 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:27,746 So, unless and until we proscribe Mr Brookes's party, 40 00:04:28,416 --> 00:04:31,681 we must defend to our dying breath 41 00:04:31,751 --> 00:04:35,517 his right to speak freely, within the law, 42 00:04:35,587 --> 00:04:37,954 regardless of who that offends. 43 00:04:38,023 --> 00:04:40,184 Thank you, Mrs Mills. 44 00:04:40,258 --> 00:04:43,750 Would you defend your client's right to deny the Holocaust? 45 00:04:43,827 --> 00:04:46,159 He made such a statement on one occasion. 46 00:04:46,328 --> 00:04:51,288 As offensive as that idea is, the law must defend his right to express it. 47 00:04:52,132 --> 00:04:55,102 - The alternative is dictatorship. - Hmm. 48 00:04:56,269 --> 00:04:59,204 We shall adjourn to consider our judgment. 49 00:04:59,271 --> 00:05:00,637 All rise. 50 00:05:07,277 --> 00:05:08,609 Good morning? 51 00:05:08,678 --> 00:05:12,170 Well, I should feel more sanguine about it if Deed wasn't on the bench. 52 00:05:12,247 --> 00:05:15,683 - Did you see the mob outside? - And why the police allow it... 53 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:18,481 Oh, yes, the Cabinet's braced for trouble if this, uh, 54 00:05:18,553 --> 00:05:19,986 if this appeal succeeds. 55 00:05:20,053 --> 00:05:21,487 Deed won't let that influence him. 56 00:05:21,555 --> 00:05:23,064 I thought he'd been sent off to The Hague. 57 00:05:23,088 --> 00:05:26,387 There's no work for him there. He's at liberty to sit back here. 58 00:05:26,458 --> 00:05:28,393 Mrs Mills, your feelings? 59 00:05:28,460 --> 00:05:30,537 I think it's shameful the Government ever brought this case. 60 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:31,961 What else could I expect 61 00:05:32,029 --> 00:05:35,623 from that radical bunch of loonies that she's joined forces with? 62 00:05:37,999 --> 00:05:39,990 His opinions are odious, 63 00:05:40,067 --> 00:05:45,004 but in a democratic society, is it really necessary that we zip his mouth? 64 00:05:45,071 --> 00:05:48,405 Well, Article 10 of the European Convention forbids us to do so. 65 00:05:48,475 --> 00:05:50,909 Not entirely. It restricts his rights sometimes, 66 00:05:50,976 --> 00:05:54,775 for public safety and for the protection of the rights of others. 67 00:05:54,845 --> 00:05:56,074 Brookes is a racist. 68 00:05:56,146 --> 00:05:59,912 He hates blacks and Muslims and gays and Jews, 69 00:05:59,982 --> 00:06:02,041 and people with six toes, for all I know. 70 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:04,415 And despite the location of his speech, 71 00:06:04,486 --> 00:06:07,512 Brookes was careful to attack only the religion. 72 00:06:07,821 --> 00:06:11,848 Can we permit a religious creed to be immune from criticism 73 00:06:11,924 --> 00:06:13,687 simply because its adherents 74 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:16,660 claim that that criticism is insulting? 75 00:06:17,895 --> 00:06:21,023 We have to try to get behind the words, Joe, to intent. 76 00:06:21,097 --> 00:06:23,691 Wasn't Islam being held up in hatred? 77 00:06:23,765 --> 00:06:29,135 There is European jurisprudence, Jersild versus Denmark, 1955. 78 00:06:29,403 --> 00:06:34,306 A journalist was convicted of aiding and abetting racial hatred. 79 00:06:34,374 --> 00:06:36,933 He had interviewed three neo-Nazis. 80 00:06:37,309 --> 00:06:39,437 On overturning the conviction, 81 00:06:39,511 --> 00:06:43,777 the court ruled that it would seriously hamper press freedom 82 00:06:43,847 --> 00:06:46,817 were he prevented from disseminating such views. 83 00:06:46,884 --> 00:06:49,682 This still ignores Article 17. 84 00:06:49,752 --> 00:06:53,118 We can't interpret any right in the Convention in any way 85 00:06:53,187 --> 00:06:56,350 that allows Brookes to destroy any of its other rights and freedoms. 86 00:06:56,422 --> 00:06:58,015 Brookes was following the law 87 00:06:58,091 --> 00:07:02,494 by not attacking the security of the Muslims under the Convention, 88 00:07:02,561 --> 00:07:03,823 only their ideas. 89 00:07:03,895 --> 00:07:06,421 Ideas lead to physical reality, Joe, violence. 90 00:07:06,830 --> 00:07:08,992 I can't believe that Brookes wasn't aware of that. 91 00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:12,766 There's very little we can do about it under the law as it now stands. 92 00:07:12,835 --> 00:07:19,103 In a full democracy, ideas alone don't undermine anyone's peace, John. 93 00:07:19,874 --> 00:07:24,105 - Do we live in a full democracy? - That's why we need these protections. 94 00:07:24,176 --> 00:07:26,406 How would you feel if your core religious beliefs 95 00:07:26,478 --> 00:07:28,174 were held up for ridicule 96 00:07:28,246 --> 00:07:30,805 by somebody claiming to represent the white majority? 97 00:07:30,981 --> 00:07:33,575 I'd want the blasphemer stoned. 98 00:07:33,883 --> 00:07:36,875 We'll all be stoned if we overturn the lower court and release him. 99 00:07:37,119 --> 00:07:38,712 Now, there's a dilemma. 100 00:07:38,787 --> 00:07:42,655 Should we uphold a wrong judgment for fear of reprisals? 101 00:07:42,723 --> 00:07:44,714 I'm still not convinced it was wrong. 102 00:07:45,492 --> 00:07:50,953 Then we must each take our own counsel and meet at a later date. 14 days? 103 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:58,565 Eleven people shot in Basra 104 00:07:58,635 --> 00:08:01,900 is hardly huge in relation to the number of people killed there, Ian. 105 00:08:01,970 --> 00:08:05,668 These were civilians killed by a British soldier. Four of them were children. 106 00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:09,369 - Well, three were terrorists, surely? - That was the Army's original position. 107 00:08:09,442 --> 00:08:11,775 The Iraqi government now claims none were. 108 00:08:11,844 --> 00:08:15,712 - Huh! Well, how reliable is that? - They want the case heard in Iraq. 109 00:08:15,781 --> 00:08:19,114 Well, the PM might go along with it as part of our exit strategy. 110 00:08:19,183 --> 00:08:20,981 Pity poor Private Clark. 111 00:08:21,052 --> 00:08:23,213 Have we got an exit strategy? 112 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:27,448 - The Army wants a court-martial. - Well, they won't get it. 113 00:08:27,522 --> 00:08:31,186 Not even with the Secretary of State for Defence arguing for it in Cabinet. 114 00:08:32,125 --> 00:08:33,423 Taxi! 115 00:08:34,461 --> 00:08:36,054 Er... Garrick Club, please. 116 00:08:40,898 --> 00:08:42,094 Sir Joseph. 117 00:08:57,978 --> 00:09:00,742 - Did you recognise the woman, Joe? - Well, do you think it's serious? 118 00:09:00,813 --> 00:09:02,891 The Home Office can't treat it as anything other than serious. 119 00:09:02,915 --> 00:09:04,940 But I barely saw the woman. 120 00:09:05,016 --> 00:09:07,212 You'll all have to have round-the-clock protection. 121 00:09:07,285 --> 00:09:10,550 As long as she's got good legs! 122 00:09:10,621 --> 00:09:12,418 Oh, yeah! 123 00:09:59,455 --> 00:10:01,617 What are Sir John's routines? 124 00:10:01,691 --> 00:10:04,922 I keep his diary quite secure. You'll have to ask him. 125 00:10:04,993 --> 00:10:06,984 This is not helping your boss. 126 00:10:07,061 --> 00:10:11,088 I'm beginning to think this is a move by the Lord Chancellor to restrict me. 127 00:10:11,164 --> 00:10:14,133 We can't take any risks. We're taking it very seriously, sir. 128 00:10:14,199 --> 00:10:16,191 It was Sir Joe Channing that was threatened. 129 00:10:16,268 --> 00:10:17,612 Yeah, I've been assigned to your staff. 130 00:10:17,636 --> 00:10:19,235 I don't think Mrs Cooper needs any help. 131 00:10:19,303 --> 00:10:20,498 I'm sure you wouldn't like it 132 00:10:20,571 --> 00:10:22,506 if Mrs Cooper opened a letter addressed to you 133 00:10:22,573 --> 00:10:23,733 and it exploded. 134 00:10:23,807 --> 00:10:26,901 I wouldn't like it any better if it happened to you. 135 00:10:28,477 --> 00:10:31,071 All the while you're here, you must report to Mrs Cooper. 136 00:10:31,146 --> 00:10:33,172 - Sir, I really think... - Yes, yes, all right. 137 00:10:33,248 --> 00:10:36,273 I'm sure you're very good at what you do, but so is Mrs Cooper. 138 00:10:43,121 --> 00:10:45,055 - Is he always so difficult? - Huh! 139 00:10:45,122 --> 00:10:48,319 - I will need to know his movements. - I wish I knew them myself. 140 00:10:48,391 --> 00:10:51,519 - He has lots of girlfriends. - I wouldn't know about that. 141 00:10:51,593 --> 00:10:53,687 Is he sleeping with the barrister, Mrs Mills? 142 00:10:53,762 --> 00:10:57,595 - Is that anyone's business but his? - He could be at risk. 143 00:10:57,664 --> 00:11:01,101 Look, we have to ensure his safety without his knowing. 144 00:11:01,168 --> 00:11:03,727 He's in court on another appeal this afternoon. 145 00:11:03,803 --> 00:11:07,034 Is it likely to attract a lot of the general public? 146 00:11:07,105 --> 00:11:09,938 The status of electronic bank drafts in the law of theft? 147 00:11:10,007 --> 00:11:12,305 Yeah, they'll be queuing down the Strand! 148 00:11:12,375 --> 00:11:15,971 Afterwards, he's meeting Mrs Mills. They're fencing at the gym. 149 00:11:22,249 --> 00:11:25,343 I don't care how stable a trial in Baghdad 150 00:11:25,418 --> 00:11:27,011 makes those rag-heads look! 151 00:11:27,386 --> 00:11:29,981 Sounds like the Secretary of State for Defence is adamant, Percy. 152 00:11:30,055 --> 00:11:31,716 Ready to punch someone, I'd say. 153 00:11:31,789 --> 00:11:33,815 Our boys deserve better! 154 00:11:33,891 --> 00:11:36,985 The proper course is for the Army to court-martial Private Clark. 155 00:11:37,060 --> 00:11:38,528 The Iraqis won't budge. 156 00:11:39,228 --> 00:11:41,788 We wrest the country back from a madman. 157 00:11:41,864 --> 00:11:45,822 - Now they imagine they're a democracy. - More people voted in Iraq than here. 158 00:11:45,899 --> 00:11:47,993 Well, you know the PM's view, Martin. 159 00:11:48,068 --> 00:11:51,367 It'll help stabilise Iraq if the courts are at least seen to be functioning. 160 00:11:51,604 --> 00:11:54,643 But the troops on the ground will feel they have no protection until we exit. 161 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,570 The longer we delay the functioning of their administration, 162 00:11:57,641 --> 00:12:00,974 the longer that exit will take, General. 163 00:12:01,044 --> 00:12:04,775 A trial in Iraq would be seen as a sellout. 164 00:12:04,847 --> 00:12:06,748 Even more of our lads would desert. 165 00:12:07,516 --> 00:12:10,007 No one's selling them out, Andy. 166 00:12:10,218 --> 00:12:12,584 I'll fight this one in public if necessary. 167 00:12:12,652 --> 00:12:14,416 See what the electorate thinks. 168 00:12:24,094 --> 00:12:26,392 The police tramped through my apartment today. 169 00:12:26,864 --> 00:12:29,024 Checking on security in case you visit me. 170 00:12:29,599 --> 00:12:31,123 That was a bit presumptuous. 171 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,567 I think it provided them with an excuse. 172 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:37,366 Because of my relationship with Radical Lawyers for Justice. 173 00:12:37,438 --> 00:12:40,373 The police have become an arm of government. Nobody seems to care. 174 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,408 Well, you'd better start caring. 175 00:12:42,474 --> 00:12:44,841 You might need to rely on them for your security. 176 00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:47,242 I can't take that seriously. 177 00:12:50,514 --> 00:12:52,812 They did ask about us. 178 00:12:53,349 --> 00:12:54,749 What did you tell 'em? 179 00:12:55,817 --> 00:12:58,843 - That I can never be with you. - Why? 180 00:13:00,154 --> 00:13:02,783 What's that all about? I thought life was good. 181 00:13:03,189 --> 00:13:05,624 Yeah. It is for you, John. 182 00:13:07,225 --> 00:13:09,784 It's like you can't be touched on any level. 183 00:13:09,995 --> 00:13:11,705 Is this why you've hooked up with Radical Lawyers? 184 00:13:11,729 --> 00:13:13,890 No, that was a good offer. 185 00:13:13,963 --> 00:13:16,989 In legal circles, it's self-immolation. You could have been a judge. 186 00:13:17,065 --> 00:13:19,177 Yeah, and then I'd be unassailable too, and I don't want that. 187 00:13:19,201 --> 00:13:21,669 Jo, come on. Why are you doing this? Don't do this. 188 00:13:21,736 --> 00:13:24,103 Because I don't like the way I'm living my life, John. 189 00:13:24,337 --> 00:13:26,238 - I want to change it. - Is this helping? 190 00:13:26,973 --> 00:13:28,804 Excuse me, but who are you to question that? 191 00:13:28,874 --> 00:13:30,952 If you get close to this lot, you'll never be a judge. 192 00:13:30,976 --> 00:13:32,945 What difference could I make on the bench, anyway? 193 00:13:33,045 --> 00:13:35,775 Mm-hm? And if you're stopped from being a barrister? 194 00:13:35,947 --> 00:13:37,881 Has anyone threatened that? 195 00:13:38,982 --> 00:13:41,246 This new set is totally lopsided, 196 00:13:41,951 --> 00:13:43,317 totally political. 197 00:13:43,386 --> 00:13:45,684 They ignore all principles of objectivity. 198 00:13:45,754 --> 00:13:47,881 No, they believe in what they're doing 199 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:49,980 and that is more than can be said for most lawyers. 200 00:13:51,224 --> 00:13:56,218 Don't you use them as a stick to beat me with. 201 00:13:56,295 --> 00:13:58,127 We've got too much history for that. 202 00:13:58,197 --> 00:14:01,064 And don't you manipulate me, John. 203 00:14:03,033 --> 00:14:05,592 I can't talk to you any more. I can't reach you. 204 00:14:06,402 --> 00:14:09,963 You just... You just take a position and you don't shift. 205 00:14:10,338 --> 00:14:12,465 A bomb is probably all that'll move you. 206 00:15:15,352 --> 00:15:17,218 It is an outrage. 207 00:15:17,287 --> 00:15:18,982 The British are denying us justice 208 00:15:19,054 --> 00:15:22,183 by refusing to allow us to try Private Clark in Iraq. 209 00:15:22,724 --> 00:15:25,023 Instead, they are insisting on The Hague. 210 00:15:25,093 --> 00:15:26,925 Yeah, I've been following the public row 211 00:15:26,995 --> 00:15:29,258 between the British PM and the Army Minister. 212 00:15:29,328 --> 00:15:31,922 This soldier must be tried on Iraqi soil. 213 00:15:31,998 --> 00:15:36,297 That might be risky, Mr Ambassador. It suggests you want a lynch party. 214 00:15:36,367 --> 00:15:38,393 We want only justice. 215 00:15:38,469 --> 00:15:42,462 But The Hague is the perfect venue. Politically sophisticated. 216 00:15:42,538 --> 00:15:47,407 Yes, but can the International Criminal Court deliver justice for Iraq? 217 00:15:47,476 --> 00:15:52,003 I will prosecute personally. Let's talk to Claude Previn. 218 00:15:52,078 --> 00:15:55,139 It is still a trial in English for the English. 219 00:15:55,215 --> 00:16:00,709 Given France's consistent opposition to the war, you need have no concerns. 220 00:16:00,785 --> 00:16:05,245 Iraq must make a formal request under the Statute of Rome, Article 13. 221 00:16:07,957 --> 00:16:10,290 We would like this case, monsieur. N'est-ce pas, Marie? 222 00:16:10,359 --> 00:16:13,419 We would make sure the soldier was found guilty. 223 00:16:13,494 --> 00:16:15,360 The consequences of their illegal war. 224 00:16:15,429 --> 00:16:17,206 - Claude? - If only we could fight that battle. 225 00:16:17,230 --> 00:16:19,698 I will talk to our Justice Minister. 226 00:16:21,266 --> 00:16:22,443 As far as the Army's concerned, 227 00:16:22,466 --> 00:16:25,403 the International Criminal Court is little better than Iraq. 228 00:16:25,469 --> 00:16:26,562 Hardly, General. 229 00:16:26,637 --> 00:16:29,196 The soldiers on the ground won't notice any difference. 230 00:16:29,272 --> 00:16:31,740 And how many more desertions can we sustain? 231 00:16:31,807 --> 00:16:33,366 Three thousand to date. 232 00:16:33,575 --> 00:16:34,940 It's out of our hands now. 233 00:16:35,009 --> 00:16:37,773 We are official signatories to the ICC, after all. 234 00:16:37,844 --> 00:16:39,608 Well, some means must be found to block this. 235 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,979 If we don't, soldiers who don't go AWOL will avoid taking action 236 00:16:43,050 --> 00:16:44,915 for fear of being made a political football. 237 00:16:44,983 --> 00:16:48,886 This is part of our exit strategy. 238 00:16:48,954 --> 00:16:51,286 What exit strategy? 239 00:16:52,655 --> 00:16:56,989 Well, I, er, I suppose we must get out sooner rather than later. 240 00:16:58,361 --> 00:17:02,057 Then we must pre-empt a trial at The Hague and try him by court-martial. 241 00:17:02,129 --> 00:17:05,223 Well, that would cause an international incident. 242 00:17:05,298 --> 00:17:07,425 There might be a simpler solution. 243 00:17:07,499 --> 00:17:11,630 Private Clark's mental state could mean that he's unfit for trial. 244 00:17:12,136 --> 00:17:16,301 - Now, that's a possibility, General. - Not much honour there. 245 00:17:16,374 --> 00:17:18,238 Anyway, our trick cyclists say he's sound. 246 00:17:21,744 --> 00:17:23,838 Right. I'll report back. 247 00:17:27,381 --> 00:17:28,575 Gentlemen. 248 00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:37,386 How much of a sacrificial lamb is this soldier, Alan? 249 00:17:37,455 --> 00:17:41,722 Well, I suppose we could withdraw HMG's consent to the trial, 250 00:17:41,792 --> 00:17:44,420 although the PM's inclined to take it on the chin. 251 00:17:44,728 --> 00:17:47,060 It's Private Clark in the dock, not HMG. 252 00:17:47,129 --> 00:17:49,859 Well, it puts clear blue water between us and the US. 253 00:17:49,931 --> 00:17:53,264 It shows that the British don't shy away from international justice. 254 00:17:53,333 --> 00:17:59,704 If Deed was on the panel, swimming our way, so much the better. 255 00:18:00,271 --> 00:18:03,729 How to get Deed to swim other than against the tide, Alan? 256 00:18:06,542 --> 00:18:09,170 Your name's been put forward for the trial panel. 257 00:18:09,846 --> 00:18:12,144 The Government feels it should be represented. 258 00:18:12,214 --> 00:18:14,910 I don't represent the Government, Ian. 259 00:18:14,982 --> 00:18:17,974 His Honour Judge Previn is resisting your inclusion. 260 00:18:18,051 --> 00:18:20,384 He hasn't got much trial experience. 261 00:18:20,453 --> 00:18:23,547 Do any of them? They'll make up the deficiency by time-wasting. 262 00:18:23,622 --> 00:18:25,783 Oh, no, that means a year or more, Ian. 263 00:18:25,857 --> 00:18:28,485 I'd really rather one of the other judges did it. 264 00:18:28,558 --> 00:18:31,050 I think there's a move afoot 265 00:18:31,128 --> 00:18:34,426 to sacrifice Private Clark to our exit strategy. 266 00:18:35,197 --> 00:18:36,562 Which is what, exactly? 267 00:18:36,631 --> 00:18:38,259 I'm not privy to it, John, 268 00:18:38,333 --> 00:18:41,097 but I think it involves an English judge 269 00:18:41,168 --> 00:18:45,195 helping to deliver justice by finding Private Clark guilty. 270 00:18:45,271 --> 00:18:47,068 And if he's not guilty? 271 00:18:47,139 --> 00:18:49,607 It's a small price to pay, it's felt, 272 00:18:49,673 --> 00:18:52,108 for saving the lives of British soldiers in Iraq. 273 00:20:11,101 --> 00:20:14,831 John, please go before I say something I might regret. 274 00:20:17,904 --> 00:20:19,066 Just go. 275 00:20:22,975 --> 00:20:24,102 Go! 276 00:20:28,779 --> 00:20:32,909 I can't do the case in The Hague. Deed's on the trial panel. 277 00:20:32,982 --> 00:20:37,147 - That's madness, Jo. - We had a relationship, Simon. 278 00:20:38,153 --> 00:20:40,314 Well, then, play him to our advantage. 279 00:20:40,387 --> 00:20:44,620 Think about it, Jo. It's like a gift to Dave Clark's defence. 280 00:21:22,318 --> 00:21:23,650 - Goedendag. - Goedendag. 281 00:21:23,719 --> 00:21:26,052 I'm Dr Pavely. I have a reservation. 282 00:21:26,121 --> 00:21:28,589 Ah, yes, Dr Pavely. 283 00:21:28,656 --> 00:21:30,784 If you could fill out the registration. 284 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,025 Shall I unpack, Judge? 285 00:21:37,630 --> 00:21:41,225 - This trial's reckoned to last a year. - Are we staying? 286 00:21:41,299 --> 00:21:43,643 Well, from what I've read so far, we could do it in three weeks. 287 00:21:43,667 --> 00:21:44,895 I'll unpack, then. 288 00:21:44,968 --> 00:21:46,936 Marie Madsen, chief prosecutor of the ICC. 289 00:21:47,003 --> 00:21:48,767 Excuse me! Mr Justice Deed is busy! 290 00:21:49,204 --> 00:21:53,335 - She's here now, Coop. - So much for security! 291 00:21:53,408 --> 00:21:56,172 I don't think there's much danger in Ms Madsen. 292 00:21:57,010 --> 00:22:00,310 You look older than your reputation led me to expect. 293 00:22:00,914 --> 00:22:02,040 Touché. 294 00:22:03,949 --> 00:22:07,942 - Do you fence? - Games are a waste of time. 295 00:22:08,019 --> 00:22:10,044 It's mental discipline, like yoga. 296 00:22:10,787 --> 00:22:13,086 - You do yoga? - No, I'm too lazy. 297 00:22:13,489 --> 00:22:16,925 Have you read the papers in the Private Clark case? 298 00:22:16,991 --> 00:22:18,459 There is a lot to read. 299 00:22:18,626 --> 00:22:22,322 Well, we have a drink later and talk, yes? 300 00:22:22,395 --> 00:22:26,162 Is it quite proper? The chief prosecutor and one of the trial judges? 301 00:22:26,566 --> 00:22:29,228 Our joint concern is the achievement of justice. 302 00:22:29,301 --> 00:22:32,792 I thought that you presented your evidence, the defence theirs 303 00:22:32,869 --> 00:22:34,201 and the judges decide. 304 00:22:34,504 --> 00:22:37,132 Article 54 says my task is to investigate 305 00:22:37,206 --> 00:22:40,232 both incriminating and exonerating circumstances. 306 00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:44,072 You should not hear this case, Sir John. 307 00:22:45,312 --> 00:22:46,473 Until later. 308 00:22:55,819 --> 00:22:57,253 She's a forceful lady. 309 00:22:57,854 --> 00:22:59,719 Bit of a madam, if you ask me. 310 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:03,223 She has a reputation for getting drunk with the trial judges. 311 00:23:19,804 --> 00:23:21,294 Oh, I'm a police officer. 312 00:23:22,006 --> 00:23:23,200 Oh. 313 00:23:25,074 --> 00:23:27,669 So, is, er... 314 00:23:27,743 --> 00:23:29,802 is your policewoman a lesbian? 315 00:23:32,579 --> 00:23:36,140 You have a reputation for getting too close to the trial judges. 316 00:23:36,650 --> 00:23:39,312 You have a reputation for interfering. 317 00:23:40,118 --> 00:23:42,644 Isn't that how European courts work? 318 00:23:42,721 --> 00:23:45,121 The evidence points to Private Clark's guilt. 319 00:23:45,189 --> 00:23:47,657 His defence team would say it points to lack of legal guilt. 320 00:23:47,991 --> 00:23:51,620 - You're familiar with his defence team? - My statement didn't imply that. 321 00:23:51,861 --> 00:23:53,522 Do you have sex with Mrs Mills? 322 00:23:55,863 --> 00:23:57,855 You get right to it, don't you? 323 00:23:57,932 --> 00:23:59,923 Ah, you don't deny it. 324 00:24:01,300 --> 00:24:03,428 Am I being cross-examined? 325 00:24:03,502 --> 00:24:08,030 - Oh, how can she defend this man? - I'm not running the defence. 326 00:24:08,972 --> 00:24:13,033 - It's for us to interrogate him. - With his defence team. 327 00:24:16,244 --> 00:24:19,806 When I heard you might be on this panel, I was sure I wouldn't like you. 328 00:24:20,115 --> 00:24:22,913 Hmm. But now you've changed your mind, have you? 329 00:24:23,983 --> 00:24:26,248 You are frank, forthright. 330 00:24:28,086 --> 00:24:30,954 I can't stand men who don't know what they want, 331 00:24:31,022 --> 00:24:32,457 nor how to get it when they do. 332 00:24:36,092 --> 00:24:37,617 Would you like to make love? 333 00:24:38,261 --> 00:24:40,058 I think that would be very nice. 334 00:24:41,397 --> 00:24:42,865 Oh, this is good. 335 00:24:43,865 --> 00:24:47,198 But at this point I must reveal I'm from the News Of The World and leave. 336 00:24:48,402 --> 00:24:49,733 This is a joke? 337 00:24:50,703 --> 00:24:53,195 Yeah, it's... it's more a cultural difference. 338 00:24:53,272 --> 00:24:56,536 - I thought you knew what you wanted. - Yes, I'll regret it all my life. 339 00:24:56,607 --> 00:24:58,132 Yes... 340 00:24:58,942 --> 00:25:01,706 I think you will. 341 00:25:04,846 --> 00:25:06,439 Sir John? 342 00:25:10,317 --> 00:25:11,751 Nick of time. 343 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,859 Are they going to find me guilty, Mrs Mills? 344 00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:29,625 - Are they? - We think our case is good. 345 00:25:31,866 --> 00:25:34,300 Dave, I want you to bring your mother into court. 346 00:25:36,203 --> 00:25:39,229 No. She's not well. She can't. 347 00:25:39,305 --> 00:25:41,916 They'll hear how you helped look after her when you were growing up. 348 00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:43,533 They'll see her in her wheelchair. 349 00:25:44,675 --> 00:25:47,338 I don't want her to hear about those children. 350 00:25:47,411 --> 00:25:49,845 No, it... It'll kill her. 351 00:25:50,946 --> 00:25:52,642 Please don't make her come here. 352 00:26:15,631 --> 00:26:17,031 I wish I could do that. 353 00:26:17,532 --> 00:26:19,057 Excuse me? 354 00:26:19,134 --> 00:26:22,035 Do you know the fable of the hare and the tortoise? 355 00:26:22,103 --> 00:26:23,730 I'm sure it ends badly. 356 00:26:23,803 --> 00:26:27,399 - Well... - She's a guest at our hotel. 357 00:26:27,474 --> 00:26:29,942 They must be giving her different food. 358 00:26:42,984 --> 00:26:44,509 Hi. 359 00:26:44,586 --> 00:26:46,417 I wanted this to be informal. 360 00:26:47,222 --> 00:26:49,280 Not country to country. 361 00:26:49,355 --> 00:26:52,985 You require me to step down. Marie Madsen told me. 362 00:26:53,259 --> 00:26:56,251 The Iraqis do not wish an English judge to be on the panel. 363 00:26:56,328 --> 00:26:58,023 No, of course not. 364 00:26:58,095 --> 00:27:01,496 This is a most prominent case, monsieur. We must accommodate them. 365 00:27:01,564 --> 00:27:03,396 Well, because of its prominence, we shouldn't. 366 00:27:03,466 --> 00:27:06,765 How could the British continue in Iraq if we gave in to their demands? 367 00:27:06,835 --> 00:27:09,828 The British shouldn't be in Iraq. Nor the Americans. 368 00:27:09,971 --> 00:27:13,566 The UK has a commitment, to help stabilise things. 369 00:27:13,707 --> 00:27:16,039 Can they ever be stable under an occupying power? 370 00:27:16,208 --> 00:27:19,575 - Will it ever be stable without? - With anyone else's help, yes. 371 00:27:20,378 --> 00:27:22,870 - Is France helping? - Naturellement. 372 00:27:22,947 --> 00:27:24,437 Working behind the scenes. 373 00:27:24,515 --> 00:27:26,108 Naturellement. 374 00:27:27,684 --> 00:27:31,278 You'll find my trial experience helpful in moving things along. 375 00:27:31,486 --> 00:27:33,852 These cases take time, monsieur. 376 00:27:33,921 --> 00:27:37,254 Too much time is being wasted. We could do this in three weeks. 377 00:27:38,225 --> 00:27:40,352 I am the trial president, monsieur. 378 00:27:43,862 --> 00:27:46,626 Mrs Mills, Judge. 379 00:27:46,697 --> 00:27:49,063 - Coop... - I know, Judge, some tea. 380 00:27:49,132 --> 00:27:50,760 No, I haven't come for tea. 381 00:27:53,903 --> 00:27:55,599 You're on the panel hearing Private Clark. 382 00:27:57,038 --> 00:27:58,278 Somebody doesn't want me to be. 383 00:27:58,339 --> 00:28:00,535 Good. Neither do I. I want you to step down. 384 00:28:02,909 --> 00:28:04,935 Britain has to be represented. 385 00:28:06,179 --> 00:28:08,114 Since when have you become the Government's hack? 386 00:28:08,181 --> 00:28:10,080 That's not the issue. 387 00:28:10,715 --> 00:28:13,114 Nor will I allow your new chums to make it so. 388 00:28:13,350 --> 00:28:15,717 It's our Government who should be on trial. 389 00:28:15,786 --> 00:28:17,946 Taking that line will damage your career. 390 00:28:18,020 --> 00:28:20,046 My career's just fine, thank you very much. 391 00:28:20,122 --> 00:28:21,919 I'd sooner not be part of the Establishment. 392 00:28:21,989 --> 00:28:23,287 Like it or not, Jo, you are. 393 00:28:23,357 --> 00:28:25,826 I'm increasingly ashamed to be British. 394 00:28:25,893 --> 00:28:29,226 Joining Jumping Jack Flash's set's not going to help, is it? 395 00:28:31,831 --> 00:28:33,471 I want you to think about what I've asked. 396 00:28:33,532 --> 00:28:35,396 Yeah, yeah. What defence are you running? 397 00:28:36,701 --> 00:28:39,534 Going after the Government will not help your client. 398 00:28:43,873 --> 00:28:45,704 Claude says you refuse to step down! 399 00:28:45,773 --> 00:28:48,333 - I'm sorry, Sir John. - It's all right, she's harmless. 400 00:28:48,409 --> 00:28:51,208 Pah! Islamic terrorists are harmless compared to me! 401 00:28:51,378 --> 00:28:55,939 It's fine. Marie Madsen, Jo Mills. Prosecution, meet the defence. 402 00:28:56,014 --> 00:28:58,778 Ah, Mrs Mills. I know about you. 403 00:28:59,917 --> 00:29:02,818 You will step down from this case, Sir John. It's essential. 404 00:29:03,587 --> 00:29:06,249 - Persuade him, Mrs Mills. - I don't have that sort of influence. 405 00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:08,716 Then leave. I'll talk to him. 406 00:29:09,258 --> 00:29:12,625 In England, the prosecution and the defence see the trial judge together. 407 00:29:12,694 --> 00:29:15,253 This is The Hague, Mrs Mills. 408 00:29:15,329 --> 00:29:17,797 Mmm. Where it seems you need little law to get by. 409 00:29:21,399 --> 00:29:22,924 What did she mean? 410 00:29:23,001 --> 00:29:24,969 No matter how differently you do things here, 411 00:29:25,035 --> 00:29:26,970 I won't see you without the defence. 412 00:29:27,037 --> 00:29:29,870 - Because of your relationship? - I don't answer to you, Marie. 413 00:29:29,939 --> 00:29:32,874 You must withdraw when you have a relationship with an advocate. 414 00:29:32,941 --> 00:29:34,603 You have a relationship with Previn. 415 00:29:34,676 --> 00:29:37,235 You're in and out of his room like a fiddler's elbow. 416 00:29:37,311 --> 00:29:39,405 This is not an affair. 417 00:29:39,813 --> 00:29:42,078 What, you simply get drunk in his room, do you? 418 00:29:42,148 --> 00:29:44,125 - Where did you hear that? - Maybe you should step down. 419 00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:47,778 Never! I'm going to send this British soldier to prison. 420 00:30:00,895 --> 00:30:03,592 This is getting to be a habit, the hare passing the tortoise. 421 00:30:03,664 --> 00:30:06,599 - The tortoise wins in the end. - Only in the fable. 422 00:30:13,704 --> 00:30:15,934 Will you be here after your AIDS conference? 423 00:30:16,006 --> 00:30:17,872 No, I have to go to Switzerland. 424 00:30:18,408 --> 00:30:20,603 Where you run up and down mountains? 425 00:30:24,078 --> 00:30:28,572 How about a more leisurely bike ride around the city? 426 00:30:28,949 --> 00:30:31,508 - I have to do some work. - Oh, yeah. 427 00:30:32,151 --> 00:30:34,278 That'll be our epitaph, won't it? 428 00:30:34,352 --> 00:30:37,185 Putting life on hold while we wait for work to stop. 429 00:30:37,655 --> 00:30:39,590 Yes. It's a modern disease. 430 00:30:39,657 --> 00:30:40,897 How about that bike ride, then? 431 00:30:44,093 --> 00:30:45,822 No, I really do have to work. 432 00:30:47,595 --> 00:30:48,858 How about dinner, then? 433 00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:52,058 You really are very persistent, aren't you, Mr Deed? 434 00:30:52,132 --> 00:30:53,361 Well... 435 00:30:54,401 --> 00:30:56,426 I do try. 436 00:30:58,704 --> 00:31:00,569 La cour se lève. 437 00:31:08,377 --> 00:31:12,779 Cour Pénale Internationale. L'audience est ouverte à dix heures. 438 00:31:13,281 --> 00:31:14,646 Good day to everyone. 439 00:31:16,050 --> 00:31:17,847 I would like to start 440 00:31:17,917 --> 00:31:22,411 by asking the defendant about conditions in detention. 441 00:31:22,487 --> 00:31:26,116 He has any complaints? He is receiving the correct food? 442 00:31:26,457 --> 00:31:28,391 He is, Your Honour. No complaints. 443 00:31:29,326 --> 00:31:32,386 Can we read out the charge to the accused? 444 00:31:32,461 --> 00:31:34,692 May it please Your Honour, before this is read, 445 00:31:34,763 --> 00:31:39,029 I must challenge the propriety of Sir John Deed to sit on this panel. 446 00:31:39,133 --> 00:31:40,498 On what grounds? 447 00:31:40,567 --> 00:31:43,263 He has a relationship with the defence lead. 448 00:31:43,336 --> 00:31:44,861 You are presenting evidence? 449 00:31:44,937 --> 00:31:49,840 I would like to examine His Honour Sir John and Mrs Mills on this point. 450 00:31:50,941 --> 00:31:55,469 Well, I would suggest my chambers, but there is always a need for transparency. 451 00:31:55,545 --> 00:32:00,107 Not to proceed will raise the spectre of bias in this important case. 452 00:32:00,215 --> 00:32:04,845 Sir John and Madame Mills, would you submit to examination? 453 00:32:04,919 --> 00:32:06,580 This is wholly prejudicial. 454 00:32:08,854 --> 00:32:11,084 This trial cannot be subject to bias. 455 00:32:13,691 --> 00:32:16,626 Madame, do you have any relationship with any judge on this panel? 456 00:32:16,693 --> 00:32:20,561 I know Mr Justice Deed. I fenced with him only last week. 457 00:32:20,997 --> 00:32:23,158 Your Honour, this is to favour her client. 458 00:32:24,065 --> 00:32:28,195 - Does Sir John wish to comment? - Not in open court, no. 459 00:32:28,535 --> 00:32:31,265 Under our constitution, we demand transparency. 460 00:32:33,805 --> 00:32:38,538 Is there a relationship likely to prejudice this trial? 461 00:32:39,176 --> 00:32:40,610 No, there is not. 462 00:32:41,778 --> 00:32:45,215 Then we should be mindful of Article 67, 463 00:32:45,281 --> 00:32:48,841 which guarantees the defendant the right to choose his own counsel. 464 00:32:50,518 --> 00:32:54,010 May we continue reading out the charge? 465 00:32:54,087 --> 00:32:56,749 Would Your Honour hear a further argument? 466 00:32:56,822 --> 00:32:59,552 Regrettably, no. I have ruled. 467 00:33:06,763 --> 00:33:09,460 David Patrick Clark, 468 00:33:09,531 --> 00:33:12,831 you are charged with the war crime of wilful killing, 469 00:33:13,735 --> 00:33:17,397 contrary to the Rome Statute, Article 8, 2, 470 00:33:18,305 --> 00:33:20,899 that on November 11th last at around 5pm, 471 00:33:21,907 --> 00:33:26,037 in the context of and associated with an international armed conflict, 472 00:33:26,577 --> 00:33:32,276 you did cause the death by shooting of Asheer Al-Abul, aged four years, 473 00:33:33,216 --> 00:33:35,183 a person you knew to be protected 474 00:33:35,250 --> 00:33:40,621 under the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 12th August 1949. 475 00:33:41,555 --> 00:33:44,683 You are further charged with the war crimes of murder, 476 00:33:44,757 --> 00:33:47,954 contrary to Article 8, 2, 477 00:33:48,026 --> 00:33:53,088 in that you did murder civilians taking no part in the hostilities. 478 00:33:53,164 --> 00:33:56,395 Namely, Maliki Al-Jamil, aged seven, 479 00:33:57,133 --> 00:33:59,158 Eisa Ali Nasser, nine years old, 480 00:34:00,102 --> 00:34:02,070 Ziyal Ataie, 481 00:34:02,136 --> 00:34:03,934 Amira Hakim, 482 00:34:04,005 --> 00:34:06,133 Hussein Husseini, 483 00:34:06,207 --> 00:34:08,106 Sadia Al-Rahman, 484 00:34:08,174 --> 00:34:10,040 Mohammed Rufi, 485 00:34:10,109 --> 00:34:12,271 Qasim Al-Assam, 486 00:34:12,344 --> 00:34:14,335 Murtaza Nazah. 487 00:34:15,813 --> 00:34:18,783 How do you plead, guilty or not guilty? 488 00:34:21,751 --> 00:34:23,150 Not guilty, sir. 489 00:34:24,486 --> 00:34:26,114 Sit down, monsieur. 490 00:34:27,089 --> 00:34:28,351 Madame Mills. 491 00:34:30,523 --> 00:34:32,856 In support of Private Clark's defence, we have sought 492 00:34:32,926 --> 00:34:35,087 hospital records from the Iraqi authority. 493 00:34:35,694 --> 00:34:38,390 These relate to the man that Private Clark rescued 494 00:34:38,463 --> 00:34:40,591 and who died in his arms. 495 00:34:40,665 --> 00:34:42,963 These records aren't forthcoming. 496 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:44,400 You know they exist? 497 00:34:44,468 --> 00:34:47,130 We believe so, based on evidence from the defendant. 498 00:34:47,503 --> 00:34:48,561 You did request them? 499 00:34:48,636 --> 00:34:51,629 We did. Not having them is prejudicial to the defence. 500 00:34:51,940 --> 00:34:53,407 But you knew the trial date. 501 00:34:53,474 --> 00:34:58,002 The prosecution could use its considerable powers under Article 54 502 00:34:58,878 --> 00:35:01,403 to investigate with the Iraq authority 503 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,914 just why these papers aren't forthcoming. 504 00:35:05,716 --> 00:35:07,150 The man is a fiction. 505 00:35:07,818 --> 00:35:09,217 There are no papers. 506 00:35:09,619 --> 00:35:11,918 I would like you to investigate further and report back. 507 00:35:12,521 --> 00:35:14,888 Well, this is a matter for the defence. 508 00:35:14,957 --> 00:35:17,824 I'm not here to scout for data to exonerate the accused. 509 00:35:17,892 --> 00:35:21,191 Your statutory obligation is to establish the truth. 510 00:35:21,261 --> 00:35:23,058 I want those hospital papers. 511 00:35:23,429 --> 00:35:26,489 I'm sure Mrs Mills will provide the details for you. 512 00:35:26,731 --> 00:35:30,190 - I'm obliged, My Lord. - Wrong form, Mrs Mills. 513 00:35:30,335 --> 00:35:31,563 Your Honour. 514 00:35:32,102 --> 00:35:33,433 Can we proceed? 515 00:35:35,371 --> 00:35:39,636 I'd first like to enquire about the defendant's mental state. 516 00:35:39,708 --> 00:35:42,506 Er... no. The prisoner was declared fit for trial. 517 00:35:42,576 --> 00:35:44,601 Yes, I read the Army psychiatrists' reports. 518 00:35:44,677 --> 00:35:46,339 Are there any independent reports? 519 00:35:46,579 --> 00:35:50,743 How many psychies must a man have to see before they can call him quite sane? 520 00:35:51,949 --> 00:35:53,850 British Army psychiatrists. 521 00:35:53,918 --> 00:35:57,786 - No less qualified. - The prosecution has a point. 522 00:35:57,854 --> 00:35:59,014 Yes, they work for the Army. 523 00:35:59,088 --> 00:36:02,718 Work cultures affect the minds of us all, even psychiatrists. 524 00:36:03,259 --> 00:36:05,853 The whole of the British Army is mad, being in Iraq. 525 00:36:06,194 --> 00:36:09,492 Mrs Mills, was the defendant examined by any other psychiatrists? 526 00:36:09,562 --> 00:36:12,157 He was independently examined four times. 527 00:36:12,231 --> 00:36:14,392 The reports are on your screens at tab ten. 528 00:36:19,403 --> 00:36:21,462 Will you be calling these psychiatrists? 529 00:36:21,538 --> 00:36:22,801 Er... I will not. 530 00:36:23,606 --> 00:36:27,564 In which case, I'd like to examine the Army psychiatrists. 531 00:36:27,642 --> 00:36:29,133 For what purpose? 532 00:36:29,210 --> 00:36:32,702 I want to be satisfied as to the mental state of the defendant. 533 00:36:33,413 --> 00:36:35,210 It isn't disputed by anyone. 534 00:36:35,281 --> 00:36:39,615 I find myself agreeing with the defence. On this point. 535 00:36:45,989 --> 00:36:48,856 - We have no other option. - No, obviously. 536 00:36:49,825 --> 00:36:51,691 We will withdraw to discuss. 537 00:36:52,093 --> 00:36:53,857 La cour se lève. 538 00:37:01,634 --> 00:37:04,228 He's always so infuriating? 539 00:37:04,636 --> 00:37:06,127 You ain't seen nothing. 540 00:37:09,406 --> 00:37:10,704 Relax, Dave. 541 00:37:13,677 --> 00:37:16,510 - Would you wait outside? - He's got to be guarded, miss. 542 00:37:16,579 --> 00:37:18,307 Yes. But outside. 543 00:37:18,378 --> 00:37:20,210 No, miss. He needs guarding at all times. 544 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,749 Just leave. We need to speak to Private Clark alone. 545 00:37:22,815 --> 00:37:24,182 - It's orders. - No, get out! 546 00:37:24,251 --> 00:37:27,049 Simon, tell the judges the guards are preventing our client 547 00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:29,519 from mounting his defence. We can't continue. 548 00:37:32,223 --> 00:37:33,315 Fine. 549 00:37:35,225 --> 00:37:36,716 I'll tell them. 550 00:37:41,128 --> 00:37:44,792 You want to punch these guys, they're so stupid! 551 00:37:44,866 --> 00:37:46,197 They're quite friendly, really. 552 00:37:46,266 --> 00:37:49,134 Regardless, your defence is yours until it's given in court. 553 00:37:51,136 --> 00:37:53,604 I'm not mad, Mrs Mills. 554 00:37:54,072 --> 00:37:56,803 Dave, this is a ploy to stop us going to trial. 555 00:37:56,975 --> 00:38:00,206 - I don't think John... - He is a British judge, Jo, 556 00:38:00,276 --> 00:38:01,369 working for the Government. 557 00:38:01,911 --> 00:38:05,142 - Why is he asking if I'm mad? - To try to stop the trial. 558 00:38:05,213 --> 00:38:06,646 He's trying to be fair to you. 559 00:38:06,847 --> 00:38:09,043 They were terrorists I shot. I know they were. 560 00:38:09,382 --> 00:38:12,978 But unfortunately, Dave, your only witness died in your arms. 561 00:38:13,052 --> 00:38:14,486 No one believes he existed. 562 00:38:14,554 --> 00:38:16,454 - He was never found. - He was there. 563 00:38:16,521 --> 00:38:18,217 Someone's hiding those hospital records. 564 00:38:19,257 --> 00:38:21,350 Can you stop the psychiatrists saying I'm mad? 565 00:38:21,424 --> 00:38:25,293 - Is that what they're going to say? - I'm not mad, Mrs Mills. 566 00:38:25,362 --> 00:38:26,659 I'm not. 567 00:38:27,029 --> 00:38:30,022 Does psychiatry not obscure the waters of criminal trials? 568 00:38:30,565 --> 00:38:33,693 - Is this what you wish, monsieur? - You know differently. 569 00:38:33,767 --> 00:38:35,531 I can order this not to happen. 570 00:38:39,704 --> 00:38:41,297 Then we'll fall out publicly. 571 00:38:42,641 --> 00:38:45,804 Your government is in a most unhappy place. 572 00:38:45,876 --> 00:38:50,313 The Iraqis want this atrocity condemned and your army is in need of protection. 573 00:38:50,546 --> 00:38:53,014 Madness is a convenient escape. 574 00:38:53,081 --> 00:38:56,448 The psychiatrists may confirm he's not mad. 575 00:38:56,751 --> 00:38:58,310 My concern is to be convinced 576 00:38:58,386 --> 00:39:01,877 that Clark was in control of his mind when he shot those people. 577 00:39:01,954 --> 00:39:03,855 Otherwise, the trial cannot proceed. 578 00:39:09,993 --> 00:39:13,430 This could mean the British Army escaping without punishment. 579 00:39:13,497 --> 00:39:15,624 Is this Judge Deed's intention? 580 00:39:15,698 --> 00:39:18,997 I can think of no other reason to examine the psychiatrists. 581 00:39:19,067 --> 00:39:22,695 Deed wanted to shorten the trial time, not extend it. 582 00:39:23,537 --> 00:39:26,404 Then I will ask our Foreign Minister 583 00:39:26,472 --> 00:39:29,031 to complain to the United Nations about Judge Deed. 584 00:39:29,107 --> 00:39:31,099 Perhaps we can remove him. 585 00:39:31,876 --> 00:39:33,105 We can hope. 586 00:39:44,585 --> 00:39:47,850 - Is Deed helping us, Alan? - For once, he appears to be. 587 00:39:48,488 --> 00:39:52,083 He would help us by denying Mrs Mills and her cronies 588 00:39:52,158 --> 00:39:53,854 their international platform. 589 00:39:53,926 --> 00:39:57,656 We plan to separate Mrs Mills from her loony friends... 590 00:39:59,530 --> 00:40:01,362 and undermine their case. 591 00:40:01,432 --> 00:40:03,024 That'll delay things. 592 00:40:03,099 --> 00:40:06,193 I had no idea he'd try to shorten the trial time. 593 00:40:06,268 --> 00:40:07,758 Your medics could help, 594 00:40:08,336 --> 00:40:10,271 if the Army were to reconsider its position 595 00:40:10,338 --> 00:40:12,135 on Private Clark's mental state. 596 00:40:12,205 --> 00:40:14,150 Yes, and how would that help the situation in Basra? 597 00:40:14,174 --> 00:40:17,302 A speedy resolution will benefit everyone. 598 00:40:17,376 --> 00:40:19,901 Yes, I suppose. 599 00:40:19,978 --> 00:40:23,539 Our boys are having a difficult time. 600 00:40:28,217 --> 00:40:32,415 But your way so frequently prevails, Marie. 601 00:40:32,487 --> 00:40:35,183 This is such an important trial for you, Claude. 602 00:40:35,956 --> 00:40:38,356 We must not allow ourselves to be embarrassed. 603 00:40:39,392 --> 00:40:41,519 Monsieur Deed is right to seek records 604 00:40:41,593 --> 00:40:44,290 that may have come detached from that dead witness. 605 00:40:44,363 --> 00:40:48,890 How? Iraq is in chaos, Claude, the result of invading forces. 606 00:40:48,965 --> 00:40:51,160 Then he will insist on the psychiatrists. 607 00:40:54,903 --> 00:40:56,131 Claude. 608 00:40:57,638 --> 00:41:00,266 There is, um... 609 00:41:00,340 --> 00:41:03,468 something I must tell you about Deed. 610 00:41:03,542 --> 00:41:04,805 It's messy. 611 00:41:05,911 --> 00:41:07,902 Then you'd better come to my chambers. 612 00:41:12,516 --> 00:41:14,074 Your taxi is waiting, Doctor. 613 00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:16,914 Can you give this to Sir John Deed for me, please? 614 00:41:16,985 --> 00:41:18,419 - Thank you. - Thank you. 615 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,794 Answer me, monsieur. Are you still sexually pressuring Marie Madsen? 616 00:41:30,863 --> 00:41:32,262 Oh, please! 617 00:41:33,464 --> 00:41:35,399 - Monsieur? - This is all nonsense. 618 00:41:36,433 --> 00:41:38,800 You find women troublesome, no? 619 00:41:38,869 --> 00:41:40,064 But I love them! 620 00:41:43,439 --> 00:41:45,998 - You have such a reputation. - Evidence, Claude. 621 00:41:46,474 --> 00:41:47,999 Marie is very beautiful, no? 622 00:41:48,075 --> 00:41:51,511 She should try using a little less sex and a little more law. 623 00:41:52,178 --> 00:41:54,373 I will examine those psychiatrists. 624 00:41:56,148 --> 00:42:00,106 In any dangerous situation, the normal response is fight or flight. 625 00:42:00,451 --> 00:42:02,419 This is what adrenaline does for us. 626 00:42:03,053 --> 00:42:06,023 In soldiers, the urge to flee is suppressed, 627 00:42:06,088 --> 00:42:08,614 both by training and by peer-group pressure. 628 00:42:09,123 --> 00:42:11,854 - Soldiers are not normal? - If you accept the norm as 629 00:42:11,926 --> 00:42:14,394 not unquestioningly submitting to discipline 630 00:42:14,461 --> 00:42:16,225 or subjecting oneself to danger. 631 00:42:16,329 --> 00:42:20,025 Does Private Clark need to subject himself to danger? 632 00:42:20,098 --> 00:42:22,657 That tendency exists in most soldiers. 633 00:42:22,733 --> 00:42:26,795 Private Clark comes from a very protected background. 634 00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:28,463 His mother is an invalid 635 00:42:28,538 --> 00:42:31,235 and was confined to a wheelchair soon after his birth. 636 00:42:31,940 --> 00:42:33,704 His older sisters are her carers 637 00:42:33,775 --> 00:42:37,608 and brought up Private Clark after his father deserted the family. 638 00:42:38,345 --> 00:42:40,939 He has a greater need for danger than most. 639 00:42:41,781 --> 00:42:44,682 Does that predispose him to a low threshold of self-control? 640 00:42:45,083 --> 00:42:46,517 In my opinion, yes. 641 00:42:46,751 --> 00:42:51,415 In your opinion, was he beyond reasonable self-control 642 00:42:51,488 --> 00:42:52,682 at the time of the shooting? 643 00:42:56,892 --> 00:43:00,793 On re-examining the hours of interviews, I'd say he was. 644 00:43:05,031 --> 00:43:06,123 Thank you. 645 00:43:09,768 --> 00:43:12,134 Hi. 312, please. 646 00:43:12,203 --> 00:43:15,366 Thank you. 647 00:43:15,438 --> 00:43:18,032 - Dr Pavely left this for you, sir. - Thanks. 648 00:43:23,311 --> 00:43:25,802 - Is she coming back? - She's kept her room on. 649 00:43:29,949 --> 00:43:32,646 See if you can get Dr Pavely's number, will you? 650 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:37,000 La cour se lève. 651 00:43:44,393 --> 00:43:45,485 Madame Mills. 652 00:43:47,896 --> 00:43:51,661 In your original opinion, along with that of Doctors Denman and Smith, 653 00:43:52,166 --> 00:43:56,226 you thought he was "reasoning and therefore responsible". 654 00:43:56,301 --> 00:43:59,065 Madame, you appear to be working against your client. 655 00:43:59,137 --> 00:44:01,231 No, these are his instructions. 656 00:44:01,305 --> 00:44:05,139 He won't accept he was in shock and therefore not responsible. 657 00:44:06,809 --> 00:44:09,505 When the Government puts a young soldier in the position 658 00:44:09,577 --> 00:44:11,910 that Private Clark was put in, 659 00:44:11,979 --> 00:44:16,678 even with all his training, he is still subject to human error in extremis. 660 00:44:17,751 --> 00:44:20,913 He found himself in the most desperate, terrifying situation, 661 00:44:20,986 --> 00:44:23,581 with only a fraction of a second to respond. 662 00:44:24,421 --> 00:44:29,552 He believes that in killing terrorists as he did, he exercised proper judgment. 663 00:44:30,093 --> 00:44:32,493 His colonel agreed with that, initially. 664 00:44:33,228 --> 00:44:35,697 I have a copy of Colonel Roth's report. 665 00:44:44,570 --> 00:44:46,038 How was this obtained, Mrs Mills? 666 00:44:46,105 --> 00:44:49,370 It was sent to me anonymously from Brigade Headquarters. 667 00:44:49,439 --> 00:44:51,374 - The sender is unknown? - Regrettably. 668 00:44:51,508 --> 00:44:55,603 Perhaps the prosecution can use its considerable investigatory powers 669 00:44:55,678 --> 00:44:57,202 to identify the sender. 670 00:44:57,712 --> 00:44:59,044 Resume, Madame Mills. 671 00:44:59,114 --> 00:45:03,244 Dr Froad, are psychiatric disorders prevalent in soldiers serving in Iraq? 672 00:45:03,751 --> 00:45:06,049 They appear wherever soldiers wage war. 673 00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:11,250 - Particularly so in Iraq? - There are stress problems. 674 00:45:12,323 --> 00:45:15,224 Isn't it true that out of a force of approximately 8,000, 675 00:45:15,292 --> 00:45:20,286 over 1,500 have been sent home suffering psychiatric disorders? 676 00:45:21,897 --> 00:45:23,388 There is a lot of stress. 677 00:45:24,399 --> 00:45:26,867 Is that a yes or a no, Doctor? 678 00:45:28,068 --> 00:45:29,127 Yes. 679 00:45:29,203 --> 00:45:33,435 Was Private Clark sent home suffering with a psychiatric condition 680 00:45:33,506 --> 00:45:35,235 two months before the shootings, 681 00:45:35,307 --> 00:45:37,639 but then declared fit for active service again? 682 00:45:41,645 --> 00:45:43,636 Mistakenly, in my opinion. 683 00:45:44,614 --> 00:45:48,049 But your original opinion when you saw him back in Iraq 684 00:45:48,115 --> 00:45:51,517 had been that he was fit for active service. 685 00:45:52,319 --> 00:45:56,313 It was, but on reflection, I was wrong in that. 686 00:45:57,289 --> 00:45:59,781 Has pressure been put on you to change that opinion? 687 00:46:01,826 --> 00:46:04,193 - We did a longer examination. - I see. 688 00:46:06,329 --> 00:46:08,059 - Doctor. - Are you now saying 689 00:46:08,130 --> 00:46:10,621 that Private Clark was so stressed 690 00:46:10,699 --> 00:46:12,930 that he wasn't responsible for these killings? 691 00:46:13,667 --> 00:46:18,604 I am saying his actions were simply a reflex. We say he was "automated". 692 00:46:19,505 --> 00:46:21,439 - No controlling mind. - No! 693 00:46:21,506 --> 00:46:23,600 No, that's not right. 694 00:46:26,778 --> 00:46:29,075 Sir Joseph Channing's clerk rang, Judge. 695 00:46:29,145 --> 00:46:31,944 She's looking for a date to review the Shelby Brookes appeal. 696 00:46:32,015 --> 00:46:33,607 What's our timetable here? 697 00:46:33,682 --> 00:46:37,210 Well, Judge Previn has to go to Paris tomorrow, so tomorrow's possible. 698 00:46:37,285 --> 00:46:38,344 OK, fine. 699 00:46:47,126 --> 00:46:50,459 I somehow feel we're letting Private Clark down, badly. 700 00:46:53,997 --> 00:46:57,263 He's very unhappy about those psychiatrists. 701 00:46:59,334 --> 00:47:02,600 A guilty plea would be more honourable, sir. 702 00:47:04,671 --> 00:47:05,866 Yeah. 703 00:47:21,651 --> 00:47:23,643 I can't go along with quashing this conviction. 704 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,154 The man was at a political rally being deliberately provocative. 705 00:47:27,822 --> 00:47:30,450 Urging people to "take action like proper citizens"? 706 00:47:30,524 --> 00:47:33,083 It was rather vague. 707 00:47:33,159 --> 00:47:35,957 Brookes was careful to avoid concrete threats, 708 00:47:36,028 --> 00:47:39,486 while exercising his democratic right to argue 709 00:47:39,563 --> 00:47:42,031 that Mohammed was backward and primitive. 710 00:47:42,799 --> 00:47:44,097 Who's to say he's not right, 711 00:47:44,167 --> 00:47:47,694 when one considers how Islam treats women and homosexuals? 712 00:47:47,769 --> 00:47:49,102 That's hardly relevant, anyway, 713 00:47:49,171 --> 00:47:52,367 as much the same could be said of Roman Catholicism or Judaism. 714 00:47:52,439 --> 00:47:55,671 The mens rea in this offence is intention. 715 00:47:55,742 --> 00:47:58,404 A conviction must be based on proof 716 00:47:58,477 --> 00:48:03,004 that Brookes deliberately intended to incite hatred against religion. 717 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,244 Yes, intention is very difficult to define in law, 718 00:48:06,317 --> 00:48:08,286 but I'm of the view that that was his intention. 719 00:48:08,352 --> 00:48:11,321 No. That's where the original trial judge went wrong. 720 00:48:11,387 --> 00:48:14,981 He failed to allow the jury to consider this 721 00:48:15,056 --> 00:48:18,424 as something primarily subjective, as the law requires. 722 00:48:18,492 --> 00:48:20,289 Not that I blame him. 723 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,693 I mean, the legislation is the usual bugger's muddle nowadays. 724 00:48:23,762 --> 00:48:27,095 I'm with Monty on this. No one was being attacked in the speech 725 00:48:27,165 --> 00:48:31,295 or reviled for being something he cannot change, like his race. 726 00:48:31,368 --> 00:48:35,498 But criticism of his ideas and religion must be allowed, 727 00:48:35,571 --> 00:48:38,540 even if those criticisms are harsh and aggressive. 728 00:48:38,606 --> 00:48:44,805 I mean, we can lampoon Roman Catholicism without fear of death threats. 729 00:48:44,877 --> 00:48:49,746 No, Section 29 of the Public Order Act makes clear 730 00:48:49,815 --> 00:48:53,910 that it was not intended to prohibit religious criticism 731 00:48:53,984 --> 00:48:58,147 or even the expression of abuse or insults. 732 00:48:58,220 --> 00:49:00,348 The conclusion's the same, Joe. 733 00:49:00,422 --> 00:49:02,584 Think about it, John. 734 00:49:05,859 --> 00:49:07,225 All rise. 735 00:49:22,972 --> 00:49:25,907 It is the view of this court 736 00:49:25,974 --> 00:49:31,775 that the judge at Mr Brookes's original trial failed to direct the jury 737 00:49:31,845 --> 00:49:37,112 to the protections provided in Section 29 of the Public Order Act. 738 00:49:37,182 --> 00:49:39,116 The wording is very clear. 739 00:49:39,183 --> 00:49:42,915 It specifically allows the expression of, 740 00:49:42,987 --> 00:49:45,546 and let me quote ipsissima verba, 741 00:49:46,355 --> 00:49:52,294 "dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions, 742 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,818 "or the beliefs or practices of the adherents." 743 00:49:56,996 --> 00:50:01,558 Now, there is, in a free society, an important difference between that 744 00:50:01,633 --> 00:50:05,899 and the intentional stirring-up of hatred against people 745 00:50:05,970 --> 00:50:07,529 on religious grounds. 746 00:50:08,406 --> 00:50:13,342 That difference was not made clear adequately to the jury. 747 00:50:14,776 --> 00:50:17,541 Therefore, we quash the conviction. 748 00:50:17,945 --> 00:50:21,005 The appellant may be released. 749 00:50:22,816 --> 00:50:26,081 We shall rise whilst the public gallery is cleared. 750 00:50:36,259 --> 00:50:38,387 Isn't there a London contact for Dr Pavely? 751 00:50:38,461 --> 00:50:40,759 - Only the number the hotel has. - It's never switched on. 752 00:50:40,829 --> 00:50:42,922 I could check some other sources, Sir John. 753 00:51:05,346 --> 00:51:09,339 - What happened yesterday? - Last-minute changes. 754 00:51:09,416 --> 00:51:11,816 - I had no contact. - No. 755 00:51:11,884 --> 00:51:14,410 - Do you have them? - Of course. 756 00:51:14,487 --> 00:51:16,819 So small, it only kills the target. 757 00:51:16,888 --> 00:51:20,016 They'll trip as soon as the box is opened. 758 00:51:20,090 --> 00:51:21,718 Fat old men love chocolate. 759 00:51:29,164 --> 00:51:31,632 You've made excellent contact with our enemy. 760 00:51:32,233 --> 00:51:34,030 I was happy to do this for you. 761 00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:37,365 Your impeccable credentials weren't questioned. 762 00:51:37,436 --> 00:51:40,234 He seems such a reasonable man. 763 00:51:40,305 --> 00:51:43,035 That's how treacherously deceptive Western justice is. 764 00:51:43,106 --> 00:51:44,473 Hmm. 765 00:51:44,541 --> 00:51:47,567 They smile while they kill your brothers. 766 00:51:47,643 --> 00:51:50,771 - Has something happened to my brothers? - No. 767 00:51:50,846 --> 00:51:52,678 Contact has been made. 768 00:51:52,747 --> 00:51:55,409 They are training in Afghanistan with the mujaheddin. 769 00:51:58,918 --> 00:52:03,184 Their cause is just, sister. But we can bring them back for you. 770 00:52:03,255 --> 00:52:06,224 First, there's something else we require of you. 771 00:52:28,306 --> 00:52:29,466 Hello, Dave. 772 00:52:34,344 --> 00:52:35,404 How are you? 773 00:52:35,778 --> 00:52:39,441 - Margaret, how did you get...? - As part of your defence team. 774 00:52:39,515 --> 00:52:40,983 Mark wanted to have a word. 775 00:52:42,718 --> 00:52:45,778 - They treating you right? - Can't complain. 776 00:52:48,188 --> 00:52:50,316 No, you were never a complainer. 777 00:52:52,290 --> 00:52:54,156 We all admired you for that. 778 00:52:57,060 --> 00:52:58,551 How's things with the rags? 779 00:53:00,330 --> 00:53:02,628 Bad and getting worse. 780 00:53:03,332 --> 00:53:07,062 The plan by the British Army and the British Government 781 00:53:07,134 --> 00:53:12,333 is to undermine Private Clark's defence and so deny him his day in court. 782 00:53:13,773 --> 00:53:16,799 They are trying to recategorise Private Clark as mad 783 00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:19,605 so he can't stand trial. 784 00:53:19,677 --> 00:53:24,137 It is members of the British Government who should be tried as war criminals, 785 00:53:24,214 --> 00:53:26,444 not Private Clark. 786 00:53:26,515 --> 00:53:31,680 Our Government should be on trial for persisting in this illegal war. 787 00:53:32,586 --> 00:53:36,455 - A war which, I might add... - What is going on? 788 00:53:36,523 --> 00:53:39,034 How will this help our client? We'll be reported to the Bar Council. 789 00:53:39,058 --> 00:53:41,050 It cuts the ground from under them, Jo. 790 00:53:41,127 --> 00:53:44,653 Nor the international community as a whole. 791 00:53:45,596 --> 00:53:47,292 Do you realise what your cronies have done? 792 00:53:47,364 --> 00:53:48,888 I think it was justified. 793 00:53:49,799 --> 00:53:51,700 Are you as warped as they are? 794 00:53:51,768 --> 00:53:54,293 You're the leader, you're going to have to take the rap. 795 00:53:54,369 --> 00:53:56,462 You will get reported to the Bar Council. 796 00:53:56,537 --> 00:53:58,782 It's just another way for the Government to put pressure on us. 797 00:53:58,806 --> 00:54:01,502 Listen to you! You're even beginning to sound like them. 798 00:54:01,575 --> 00:54:04,510 - You're out to stop this trial. - No. 799 00:54:04,577 --> 00:54:06,671 Defect of mind. 800 00:54:06,745 --> 00:54:10,180 If he went not guilty on failure to appreciate unlawfulness, 801 00:54:10,247 --> 00:54:11,613 he might have walked. 802 00:54:11,682 --> 00:54:14,117 He was sound when he was sent back to Iraq. 803 00:54:16,285 --> 00:54:19,743 - I was just trying to help you. - We want our day in court. 804 00:54:19,821 --> 00:54:22,881 Are you out to score political points or help your client? 805 00:54:22,957 --> 00:54:25,323 That is pretty cheap. 806 00:54:25,391 --> 00:54:30,556 You may not like me joining this set, but we never compromise our clients. 807 00:54:30,629 --> 00:54:34,531 Their interests and your client's don't coincide. 808 00:54:34,599 --> 00:54:36,965 They coincide exactly. 809 00:54:37,033 --> 00:54:39,730 Private Clark was sent to do a job he was trained for. 810 00:54:39,803 --> 00:54:41,168 He made a judgment call 811 00:54:41,236 --> 00:54:44,399 that doesn't accord with the shifting sands of the Government's war policy. 812 00:54:44,472 --> 00:54:46,133 That does not make him guilty. 813 00:54:46,206 --> 00:54:51,041 He emptied a whole magazine into a group of civilians, including children. 814 00:54:51,110 --> 00:54:53,544 - 30 bullets. - Mmm-hmm. In four seconds. 815 00:54:53,612 --> 00:54:55,444 Well, that's hardly a split-second decision. 816 00:54:55,513 --> 00:54:59,245 But children made objects of war can kill as easily as their parents can. 817 00:54:59,316 --> 00:55:01,511 No, that argument's unwinnable. 818 00:55:01,584 --> 00:55:03,644 Well, it would be before a jury. 819 00:55:05,487 --> 00:55:06,750 Defect of mind. 820 00:55:07,956 --> 00:55:11,221 The court could request you to enter that plea. 821 00:55:11,292 --> 00:55:14,921 That would make my client a scapegoat and get your employers off the hook. 822 00:55:15,261 --> 00:55:21,460 The Government does not employ me. Why would I support such a position? 823 00:55:21,532 --> 00:55:23,091 Yes, John... 824 00:55:23,167 --> 00:55:24,566 why would you? 825 00:55:33,874 --> 00:55:35,719 - That seemed rather tense. - Sorry, you can't... 826 00:55:35,743 --> 00:55:40,442 No, it's all right, it's all right, she's here now. Well, you're back. 827 00:55:40,613 --> 00:55:41,807 Uh-huh. 828 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,849 I tried calling you. How long are you back for? 829 00:55:43,915 --> 00:55:46,713 Until I get the AIDS conference organised. 830 00:55:46,784 --> 00:55:49,810 We need the pharmaceutical companies to donate more drugs. 831 00:55:49,886 --> 00:55:51,320 Urgently, you know? 832 00:55:51,388 --> 00:55:53,856 Yep. Better try blackmail. 833 00:55:54,556 --> 00:55:57,081 Remembering to stay just the right side of what's legal. 834 00:55:57,158 --> 00:56:00,219 Oh, yes, where is that? Huh? 835 00:56:00,294 --> 00:56:03,195 Well, we could have dinner and work out precisely where. 836 00:56:04,964 --> 00:56:06,829 Is that work... 837 00:56:06,898 --> 00:56:08,162 or social? 838 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,094 It's whatever we decide it is. 69535

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