All language subtitles for « The Other Side of AIDS », film Robin Scovill (2004).anglais

good afternoon ladies and gentlemen

first the probable cause of AIDS has

been found

there ain't of a known human cancer

virus second not only is the agent been

identified but a new process has been

developed to mass-produce this virus

thirdly with discovery of both the virus

in this new process we now have a blood

test for AIDS with the blood test we can

identify AIDS victims with essentially

100% certainty

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five seven years two men eight years

here

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things that I was

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because I did not follow doctor's orders

I question

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tonight I have an in-studio guest who

has been out of program a number of

times before she is author amongst other

things of the book what if everything

you thought you knew about AIDS was

wrong her name is Christine Maggiore and

Cristina's always great to see you

thank you what's this book about and how

did you write it well I wrote it based

on my personal exploration of HIV and

AIDS information which was inspired by

me testing positive in 1992 when I first

tested positive I didn't have any real

questions about what I was being told I

was told of course that I was infected

with a deadly virus that I could expect

to die at that time the prognosis was

five to seven years that I would need to

take drugs that would somehow keep me

alive while compromising my health that

I could expect to die of AIDS and not to

have anything resembling a normal life I

accepted that and went on to become a

public speaker and educator for some

local AIDS organizations here and about

a year and a half into my public service

I ran into some information that caused

me to question what I was told and

shortly thereafter I had the personal

experience of testing indeterminate

positive negative and positive which

really set me wondering what was going

on and the book is a result of my

exploration of information that I guess

you could say is outside of the

mainstream but is totally founded in

scientific medical and epidemiological

fact and that's what I put together

because I felt it was really important

to share that with people not just

people who test positive because the

whole idea of HIV and AIDS affects

everyone's lives it shapes everyone's

worldviews and and factors into their

decisions about a lot of things so it's

kind of a book for everyone but most

especially for people who've tested

positive to give them a chance to learn

what I refer to as the other side of

AIDS information and to possibly do what

I do which is to live healthy medication

free and normal

existence with good health and a

beautiful family and you know good

things coming my way

you

people who work with cancer patients

have known for a long time and it's well

documented but many people after getting

their prognosis die faster than the

cancer actually kills them and this

acceleration is based on their emotions

and when a person is told they're HIV

positive what I see happening is I

invented a term to describe at the aids

own and to me the AIDS own is a

collection of very toxic emotional

states and these emotional states are

both intense and chronic so a person's

told they're positive and then they're

experiencing intense fear intense shame

intense guilt intense feelings of

helplessness and hopelessness and this

combination of these intense emotions in

and of itself could knock out and

undermine their natural defenses and

then I notice a padding within a period

of time in the aid zone you would see

people and they stopped eating they

stopped sleeping regularly they stopped

taking care of themselves and you began

to notice that there was this pattern

emerging we're getting sick and dying

was the only thing they could think of

once you are tested

you're programmed to think any disease

that you get you're going to die you

know and if someone just coughed we used

to joke and say to aids you know at one

time in January 1993 so many of my

friends were getting sick and some day

that I actually left the place and came

to South Africa to sort of get away from

that environment which was like

everybody's expecting that you must die

no one got drunk several times I cried I

had to force myself to tell a friend I

thought it was over I was in my mind

prepared for death and disease and no

love never being touched or kissed again

just becoming a horrible walking dead

person I mean it couldn't be spread it

had to be contained with

me and not go on beyond me and there was

a lot you know there was a lot of

ostracizing of me because of that well

we were so careful we had to maintain

the family integrity which meant meant

that both Paul and I her husband and I

had to survive we could not get the

virus we had to be extremely careful so

when Chris would cut her leg we'd have

to run and put a bandage on it don't

spread the blood around don't let

anybody touch it

we wouldn't double dip into a bowl of

salsa afraid that maybe that's the way

we can pass it it was we bleached

everything everything got bleached

everything was always constantly turning

to the neurotics that we hate it was

insane because we both Paul and I had to

survive this thing for the kids sink I

keep thinking back to the very first

time that fateful time I go into the to

the free clinic to get tested for HIV I

walk in fine and they tell me you have a

fatal disease I thought it's almost like

you go there to get one it's as if

you're fine then you walk in and then

they tell you you have a fatal disease

and you're going to die

starting from 1986 when I tested I've

always felt perfectly fine I mean there

have been psychological factors

associated with being diagnosed with a

fatal illness but I've never actually

felt sick

so I would go to the doctor feeling

perfectly healthy but scared out of my

mind because the fact that I would have

my blood drawn and they would count my

t-cells would potentially tell me that I

was that much closer to death

bone pointing is a phenomenon we're in

aboriginal groups there's a belief that

someone in the group has the power of

life and death and if a member of the

group breaks a taboo this person has the

power to hex them and kill them by

pointing a bone now this bone killed

many many believers but later on when

the missionaries came and when the

Europeans came and these people were

conquered they pointed their bones at

the missionaries they pointed their

bones at the soldiers it had no power

because the power of the bone was in the

belief and what made it work is it

wasn't only the individuals belief it

was the whole community the whole group

shared this belief well what I noticed

when I started going to the different

AIDS organizations like GMHC and the

people with AIDS coalition or

body-positive and other groups like that

was if somebody said you know I think

I'm going to live everybody in the group

said you're in denial you're going to

die and so it seemed to me that the

reinforcements came from everywhere they

turned the doctors expected them to die

their loved ones expected them to die

the people in like situations expected

them to die

when you test hiv-positive when you are

touched when you get the positive

diagnosis you're supported by everything

and everyone around you to be ill and

die the government gives you welfare and

free medical care and you easily get

disability and other programs to help

you pay your rent and all that sort of

thing everyone around you and everything

conspires to you being ill and dying and

that this is the path for you and it's

almost a sad noble path that everyone is

very willing to help you walk along as

long as you stay on that path and play

the role of that victim

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it was easier on the other side no it

was easier knowing I was going to die so

I don't have a side yeah I'm on the

other side it was easier over there man

because it was really you for ik and it

was real like touching the face of like

God or something like that coming one

with the earth and realizing that

everything was going to pass and change

and that's a real euphoric feeling

there's something attractive about

giving up and I see people ready to do

it and doing it all the time

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let's just talk for a moment about

testing what are your thoughts on

someone going on and getting a quote

unquote aid steps really when we say

it's an AIDS test that's a misnomer it's

not a test for AIDS at all and

surprisingly something that it took me a

long time to figure out it's not even a

test for HIV the test is for antibodies

that are supposed to be antibodies to

HIV but they're not it's a test for

nonspecific antibodies that may or may

not have anything to do with HIV a very

heavily referenced review article on the

validity of the HIV tests had more or

less concluded that they had never been

validated at the time I didn't quite

realize that one of the implications in

this article was that HIV itself had

never properly been isolated it was so

difficult to isolate and obtain that

that was the reason why the HIV tests

had never been validated because to

validate a diagnostic test according to

the classical decent standards you need

to show that patients who test positive

with your antibody kit have got the

virus in them and patients who don't

test positive are free of the virus

broadly that would be how you would

establish it's its validity that had

never been done because you can't find

this virus in AIDS patients or in

hiv-positive patients HIV first of all

nobody's ever found it in a human being

think of it the eighth the so-called HIV

tests do not detect HIV and a person

they detect your antibodies that react

to some proteins that are produced at

abbott laboratory they do not find HIV

in the person they find a person's

functioning immune system that could

react against HIV if it were there

millions of people take tests that are

referred to as HIV tests however the

idea that there is a laboratory test

that can determine whether or not a

person is infected with the virus is

simply an illusion the FDA has never

approved a test kit that claims to be

used for the purpose of diagnosing HIV

infection it is always possible to

determine whether someone is infected

with HIV

they see you're able to destroy blood

out of a person that you suspect is

hiv-positive and and find HIV virus in

their blood yes even if their HIV RNA is

negative meaning that they don't have

any viruses floating in the blood

because the genetic material of the

virus when it's in the virus particle is

in the form of RNA even if someone

doesn't have any viruses circulating in

their blood they still have cells

infected with HIV when the nucleic acid

of the virus is actually in form of DNA

and integrated into the hosts DNA inside

the human cells and by taking human

white blood cells and looking for HIV

DNA we can determine whether the person

is actually infected with the viral

genetic material even if they don't have

any viruses floating around in the blood

that make sense the ultimate test in

that the establishment offers is what's

called a Co culture technique where you

take a sample of the individuals blood

cells white blood cells you cannot find

HIV now in this sample all you have are

these blood cells but then you culture

these cells with some special cells that

Robert Gallo generated some years ago

you have to throw in some powerful

chemicals phyto hemagglutinin or il-2

for example to force these cells to do

anything

the idea is to wake up the patient cells

to start producing RNA and then this RNA

will be coated in a protein and possibly

then there will be viral particles

produced in the medium these viral

particles now we'll go infect the other

cells that you added and then you will

amplify by a period of time the

replication of this these viral

particles in the laboratory what we call

in vitro now these particles did not

exist in the patient and the human being

the person that you got the sample from

you created them in the laboratory and

by creating these these virus particles

in the laboratory people say they have

isolated HIV from a human being they

have not done any such thing nobody was

looking at the blood of an AIDS patient

and finding it crawling with some new

organism and said hey this is this virus

that we call HIV now is there a test

that can definitively tell you if you're

infected with violence with the virus

sure what is that test well you can even

the test is to do the iliza test which

really demonstrates in it yes in essence

it's a surrogate also because it

represents antibody production to the

virus but they have demonstrated the

virus they have crystal they tried

crystalline the models of the virus HIV

exists

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you

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I don't recommend people ever getting

tested the reason is I don't know what

the test mean and I think no one else

knows what the tests mean I've never

seen any evidence that what these tests

purport to show they're actually showing

namely the presence of a virus the

presence of an exogenous virus I really

would like to see the electron

microscopic data of this and apparently

there is none there is none where you've

done a rigorous isolation protocol the

test is for antibodies that are supposed

to be antibodies to HIV but they're not

it's a test for nonspecific antibodies

that may or may not have anything to do

with HIV so it's it's not at all like

we're being told and it's really when

you think about it if you're told that

testing is responsible it's a pretty

irresponsible test to be taking in the

gay community everybody tests all the

time everybody around me was taking HIV

tests it's a responsible thing to do

it's sort of a gay rite of passage to

regularly get tested you know and

consequently many people around me

tested positive

in essence AIDS is advanced HIV

infection as opposed to early HIV

infection AIDS is when you're ill and

HIV infection without AIDS is when

you're heading towards being ill but

you're not ill I always assumed that if

you were if you had AIDS as opposed to

being just HIV positive that you were

very sick you had pneumonia or KS or

chronic diarrhea or something that

changed for me when I myself was

diagnosed with AIDS and I was diagnosed

not because of an illness not because I

was sick or that my immune system didn't

seem to be working but because my cd4

count had dropped below 200 which

according to the CDC definition is what

defines AIDS an hiv-positive test and a

cd4 count of less than 200 in 1993 in

this country we adopted a definition

that caused the number of AIDS cases to

double overnight and part of that reason

was for the first time we began counting

people as AIDS victims who were not ill

and who did not have any symptoms they

had a low t-cell count and that's only

one low t-cell count

t-cells are something that can fluctuate

a hundred percent in a given day so

based on a low t-cell count that year

the number of AIDS cases doubled

overnight and with that definition there

have been a hundred and eighty-two

thousand Americans who are not ill

diagnosed with AIDS who would not have

AIDS if they move to Canada because in

Canada they don't recognize that t-cell

definition as a criteria for having an

AIDS diagnosis most people consider

blasphemous when you point out that AIDS

is not a disease it's a syndrome it's a

collection of diseases and those

diseases get called AIDS if they occur

in a patient that the doctor somehow

concludes is hiv-positive all of the

diseases in the category called AIDS

occur to people who are HIV negative

none of them are exclusive to people who

test hiv-positive and all of them have

causes and tree

pants that are known well now they're

completely unrelated to HIV so any of

these diseases when they happen to

somebody who test HIV negative are

called by their old name but when they

occur in someone who tests HIV positive

then they're called AIDS all kinds of

diseases started coming into the AIDS

family faster than anyone should have

been comfortable with really to go from

2 or 3 to go to 30 in a few years was

like somebody should have said hey

there's something wrong here and it's

got to be financial things don't happen

that fast in science you don't suddenly

notice that one new organism is causing

every problem I mean it was a bizarre

thing that happened it really was it

didn't really have any precedence in

terms of of medicine before that unless

perhaps you could think of the

possession by the devil stuff right you

think once you're possessed by the devil

anything that happens to you or anything

you do is we just got to do with that

right so it makes it easier for you to

get tuberculosis and it makes it easier

for you to get uterine cancer it makes

it easier for you get Candida albicans

and so all those things can now be

called aids now why would anybody do

that and why would any reasonable

doctors start lumping together various

symptoms into one pile and think all

this is caused by HIV we have a test but

it's not a test for AIDS and it's called

an HIV test but it's not a test for HIV

and we have a series of problems that we

are calling aids but that doesn't

elevate AIDS into a disease it's I don't

know if you read magazines lately

there's a lot of ads for pharmaceutical

drugs lately these pharmaceutical

companies are marketing more and more

direct to consumers and encouraging you

to ask your doctor for the remedy of the

day and I notice that there's a lot of

these syndromes popping up like a social

anxiety disorder or sad I mean you can

make a syndrome out of anything you want

basically and then find medicines to

sell to make people better from it and

AIDS is not that

you know ludicrously simple but it is in

a sense just as constructed it's a it's

a construct it's it's a category of

other problems some of which we're

occuring in greater numbers in a very

small subset of people here in the US

and other parts of the world that became

due to the social political climate with

regard to sex death homosexuality and

drug use it became elevated into this

medical phenomenon that has become

untouchable and in sacred almost

the very first AIDS cases were five gay

men diagnosed in Los Angeles in 1981 by

a doctor named Michael Gottlieb and what

linked them was that they were all in

what was called the fast lane gay

lifestyle they were doing a lot of

recreational drugs they were taking many

different drugs at the same time

combining drugs much more than was the

pattern for straight drug users they

also partied a lot they went to bars

they went to clubs they went to bath

houses they met a lot of men they had a

lot of anonymous sexual contacts and as

a result they were exposed to a lot of

the classic sexually transmitted

diseases like syphilis and gonorrhea and

because they were getting those diseases

they were also frequently going to

doctors and getting antibiotic

prescriptions to treat those all of that

created a situation where a handful of

gay men were burning the candle at both

ends and putting a blowtorch to the

middle and it's no wonder that after a

while their immune system started to

collapse and they started getting sick

in these unusual ways that previously

had only been seen in older people whose

immune systems had deteriorated from age

I would watch my friend stay up all

night at the baths doing speed and then

take a downer and then in the middle of

the day in the afternoon they'd be under

the covers twitching I consciously tried

to deal with drugs in a in a saner way

than then most of my friends did there

was a ton of poppers they were

everywhere you would walk into a gay bar

and on the dance floor it was not

unusual to see every probably third

person holding a little bottle up to

their nose and you could just smell it

everywhere poppers is a slang term for a

mole and butyl nitrite inhalants they're

legitimate medical function is as an

emergency heart disease treatment to

give someone to dilate their blood

vessels so they don't have a heart

attack

ah what they were used for in the gay

community is both the physiological

effect of dilating the rectum so that

receiving anal sex is easier and less

painful and also there was a tremendous

psychological high about them john

Roisin his book the sexual outlaw

describes the effective poppers in a

crowded environment as the room exploded

in sex they became a mainstay of the gay

social scene in the late 1970s were

commonly used by large numbers of people

in gay clubs and in the bath houses and

their risk is that they're actually

chemically quite similar to drugs given

when doctors want to suppress the immune

system ie to transplant patients the

chemistry is rather similar so it's not

at all surprising that people who took

these drugs quite often would develop

immune suppression so the drugs became

something that you did together with a

group of friends before going out it

became part of the way that our social

lives were starting to be structured it

was a blast I remember living in Miami

and flying to New York for parties at at

the st. and-and-and going you know this

was a club that was you know really set

up you know for gay men and you would

arrive and the music would just be

pulsating and and you know you'd go up

in the balcony and just have all sorts

of wild you know

anonymous sections before you know

robbers and that sort of thing and we

just we formed this low subculture of

where sex was we took it on as like a

recreation I was treated for gonorrhea

bet five times chlamydia maybe twice

syphilis once anal warts let's see what

else

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crabs like you wouldn't believe those

bad house has had crabs crabs crabs

crabs well think about it with gay men

the problem is even worse than with

heterosexuals because of anal sex the

organisms that are spread through anal

sex live outside the body for long

periods of time and if you've got

everybody having 200 or so partners per

year what you created is a situation

that's very similar to third-world

countries where the water is

contaminated by feces and so we're

having this in San Francisco in New York

and many gay urban areas we have

third-world light conditions dysentery

was endemic in San Francisco right

before aids hit there were epidemics of

dysentery both in San Francisco in New

York I remember a number of friends

talking a lot about diarrhea just

diarrhea all the time and um

fevers lots and lots of fevers a friend

of Mines who cut my hair and I'd had sex

with and most of my friends had had sex

with got KS and died very suddenly and

that was immediately put into a context

of other gay men dying in New York and

some articles coming out on the gay

pressed describing that and is seemed

like the ones who died first all had

some characteristics in common that I

didn't share and so I felt relatively

safe and I wasn't surprised because I

knew that we had been pushing things to

the limit with our drug use and our

sexuality I would hear about people

dying a lot that people were dying more

and more

that it was epidemic that it was you

know spreading that it was that yeah no

one was immune that it would get it

could get everybody and that you could

get sick you could get like you could

die from having one exposure and you

know all this stuff all these things

that made me feel like there really was

no way out

seemed like a period of time when I was

going to a memorial once a month a

doctor a priest a schoolteacher but the

one common denominator was that you know

they did they were I did know that they

were they were gay there's really no

contradiction in in in holding certain

groups in contempt as as gays are often

horrific ly in this culture and at the

same time wanting to read about the

nasty things they do this became big

news and this also was news that could

affect everyone else in other words you

know they were starting it these gay men

were starting something that came out of

the box and it could spread throughout

the culture now that was pushed on

pretty strongly heterosexual AIDS became

an issue that led to funding for AIDS

research

I remember reading in the Wall Street

Journal in 1996 a May 1st front-page

article I couldn't believe it

CDC officials were admitting that even

as they were saying everyone's at risk

for AIDS

they knew that wasn't true but they also

knew that if Americans realized that

they wouldn't support substantial aids

funding what the journal didn't report

was that this was a strategy that had

actually been developed 10 years earlier

by volunteers from the public relations

industry people with a lot of PR

experience who were also gay who figured

that they could serve their community

best by mounting a PR campaign

convincing Americans that everyone was

or soon would be at risk for AIDS so

that there would be support for a

massive program of government funding

for this

particular condition a far out of line

in terms of funding per patient than

what's being spent on cancer or heart

disease or a lot of other diseases that

kill far more people

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the people that say that HIV is not

cause of AIDS practicing supreme denial

it is amazing how human beings can look

at black and call it white and look at

white and call it black they can look at

all this evidence but if they don't

choose to believe it they don't choose

to believe it I've been covering AIDS

for something like 20 years and for

perhaps half of that time I reported it

from the conventional orthodox

perspective that this was a deadly new

virus that was causing this condition

and spreading secretly among us putting

at risk everybody who was sexually

active in the last few years I've come

across some different points of view

which to begin with I found very hard to

believe or accept but I found some space

in my very busy work schedule at the

London Sunday Times and the early 90s

where I was working as medical and

science correspondent to study the

references and the viewpoints being put

forward by some doctors and scientists

mainly in the States who had this

questioning viewpoint about HIV zero

lynn aids and gradually to my amazement

I found that the evidence seemed to

suggest that they were much closer to

the truth than what I've been reporting

previously I was an undergraduate

student at Florida A&M University when I

first heard that some people were saying

that HIV doesn't cause AIDS this sounded

really crazy to me but I looked into it

and I found out that the leading critic

of the HIV causes AIDS model was a

University of California at Berkeley

biology professor Peter Duesberg who was

a pioneer in the study of retroviruses

and HIV is a retrovirus Duesberg was the

first scientist to isolate the genetic

structure of a retrovirus and this was a

discovery that several of my textbooks

had described I read some of his papers

they were very fascinating they were

very clear and they made sense to me

the basic assumption that aids was

infectious has never been in fact tested

never being discussed and we've been

contested or never been proved that is

an assumption that is very popular among

doctors and scientists who study

microbes and viruses which are the main

the bulk of doctors histories of

scientists and microbiology and but the

majority of diseases affecting us in the

Western world that is over 99% of them

are not caused by viruses and microbes

but all doctors are all too happy to

play many disease or any new variant of

a disease on a microbe because then you

know what to do what to look for and how

to possibly cope with it by making

vaccines and anti microbial and

antibiotic drugs we are now in tithing

the most harmless and most difficult to

detect viruses with technology that is

designed to find a needle in a haystack

and claim them for fatal diseases under

conditions where they are virtually

undetectable in a patient like hiv/aids

and as the target was the hypothesis we

are claiming a virus that is practically

not there only antibodies against it are

there that is biochemically not active

that is not infecting more than one in a

thousand of t-cells in an AIDS patient

for fatal immune deficiency if that were

a cause of this now none of us would be

speaking here today we would all be in

cemeteries or in intense

chaos doctor Kary Mullis who invented

the polymerase chain reaction gives this

in 83 I believe and he got the Nobel

Prize in 1993 gives us a little story

that he was hired to do PCR for an HIV

project for a private company and he

wrote as the first sentence of his paper

HIV is the probable cause of AIDS and he

said he turned to a virologist and said

what's the reference for that and the

virology said you don't need it

well mullahs are smart enough to know of

course something new is this you'd

always have a series of original papers

that established unequivocally that this

was the cause of AIDS then I only then I

started looking into it I looked up a

bunch of papers and science that the Bob

Gallo I knew about him and had written I

figured well gala must have been the one

to figure it out because he's the name

I've heard associated with it I looked

at his papers and I didn't find anything

in there that actually showed me that

there was a fact now in science called

HIV is the cause of AIDS or even the

probable cause of AIDS which is all I

would have expected the probable cause

of a highly probable because they were

attacking the whole problem by then as

though it were certainly the cause so

I'd expect it to be highly probable but

I couldn't find anything that said it

was remotely probable even it was

possible but it wasn't probable and so

therefore it wouldn't even close to what

you'd call a fact well I call these the

AIDS axioms AIDS is contagious aids are

sexually transmitted AIDS is caused by

HIV and that the anti HIV drugs promote

health and well-being the reason I call

these axioms is because they're they're

assumed to be true these four statements

are assumed to be true you cannot find

the evidence in the scientific

literature that shows that these AIDS

axioms are indeed true many human beings

are not rational they don't operate on

logic they operate on emotions and

that's exactly what those people are

doing they don't want to believe it so

it's not the case but unfortunately they

are completely 100% wrong there is no

doubt that HIV

causes AIDS the scientific evidence is

absolutely overwhelming but if you

choose to ignore it of course you can

ignore it such as the power of the human

mind there are no really good

experiments that would lead anybody who

was who's at least maintaining a healthy

skepticism to believe that HIV was

responsible for this series of this nut

series but kind of a loose confederation

of diseases that people are now willing

to call AIDS right it's the

Confederation of maybe 30 different

diseases all of which have existed in

one form or other prior to the condition

that we call AIDS ever being pointed out

and all of which have had some other

explanation at one time or other you

know to say that all 30 of those are

somehow caused in at least some cases

called AIDS cases by a virus called HIV

I think I haven't seen any evidence for

that I haven't even seen anybody trying

to bring evidence forth for that and he

said he's been looking for that since I

guess the late 80s and he has never been

able to find anyone that can give him a

paper that show number one isolation of

HIV rigorous formal isolation of HIV and

secondly using Koch's postulates

demonstrating that HIV is a causal

microorganism where is the original

paper that isolated HIV so that nothing

else was present and they actually could

go and find what the proteins were and

the nucleic acids were I think you won't

find that paper because it hasn't been

published yet I mean I understand there

are a lot of people if you ask them

about HIV causing AIDS as being a

Faculty of course it's indisputable and

the very fact that they will say it's

indisputable might lead you to question

their ability to understand scientific

method people who think any scientific

fact is indisputable don't understand

about scientific facts

there's two types of antiviral drugs

one is the AZT style drug also known as

nucleoside analogues what these drugs do

essentially is they just kill cells the

other type of antiviral drug these are

the protease inhibitors and what they do

is they interfere with the activities of

an enzyme called protease viruses some

viruses have proteases but so do healthy

human cells either style a drug you give

it to a human and you either kill or

harm healthy cells the most severe side

effect from HIV drugs of course like

with any would be death but thankfully

we see it very rarely most of the

antiretroviral drugs are very safe and

the most they cause patients is

inconvenience with non serious side

effects such as nausea or diarrhea or

bloating or gas irritating things but

not serious and not life-threatening are

you taking antiretroviral treatments Sam

how was that I don't know it's still

early

in terms of the positive impact that

it's having yeah what are the negative

effects that it's having well I lost a

lot of weight about 50 pounds a lot of

muscle mass loss of appetite nausea lack

of concentration which are all like

going away little by little

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sleeplessness and this was all

drug-induced you can it's like my

stomach always feels full and most of

the time looks full it look it's it's it

sticks out and I can't really there's no

amount of exercise or anything that will

like hold it in and there's a lot of a

lot of bloating and a lot of gas and

like diarrhea episodes of diarrhea I

have friends that won't go out because

they're on the drugs and because they

might have diarrhea at any time or they

might start vomiting and you might get

nausea they got to stay home where the

meds are and they're like chained to

this idea of the meds keeping them alive

but it's actually they're killing them

they're hurting their liver and kidneys

and their hearts several the people I

know have died of AIDS died of heart

attacks

they call it complications from AIDS

it's complications from AIDS medicines

you can walk through West Hollywood and

you can point out you can see from the

shrunken cheeks and the swollen bellies

and the looks on people you can see

who's on the drugs Oh to my face a

couple years ago and I had this like God

look going on and it became so

pronounced that I had I would have a

fold of skin here and I noticed that and

it bothered me to the point where I went

to to to consult with plastic surgeons

as to I didn't ask what was going on

just hot you know I just at the time I

thought it was I was just aging really

rapidly the other thing that I think the

drugs could cause is some facial atrophy

here with it the fat pads on the cheek

waste away I'm not sure if it's caused

by the drug or just by getting older but

I have a feeling that it's caused by the

drug we injected collagen but then that

was expensive and then we did another

procedure where we put

some human tissue which which came from

cadavers and and and and it would just

try to straighten it out and I have

little bumps on my back little tiny

things but you know that there's another

syndrome where it gets redistributed on

the back and and that makes me think

that we don't know what the long-term

effects on where I feel like a human

guinea pig there's no question that

these drugs have have side effects a Z

teal is certainly not a panacea but it's

it's very clear that people especially

taking combination therapies are doing

well and those are people who are taking

the medications from scientific meetings

from these conferences from my personal

contacts with people in the field I can

tell you that I've found no evidence

anywhere that people live longer better

lives who take these anti HIV drugs

these protease inhibitors either in

alone or in cocktails as compared to a

similar group of hiv-positive people who

do not take these drugs so I do not know

where the evidence is for the claims

that you see in the New York Times or in

CNN or wherever you see it that people

are living longer better lives as a

consequence of taking these drugs I'm

not saying that drugs couldn't

facilitate death or you know morbidity

I'm sure I'm sure that can happen and

people have had horrible side effects

from some of these drugs and but to

assume that it is the drugs that are

killing people and not AIDS I think is

again it's it's it's just not it's not

been proven out infectious diseases are

really very simple

it ain't rocket science you know you've

got a bug you've got a poisonous bug

it's destroying the body so I think it's

very very unlikely that we'll

successfully treat HIV without antiviral

drugs

and it does seem to me a bit of a waste

of time to try if you think about it you

give you put in a person make making

hundred thousands of new t-cells every

minute an inhibitor of DNA synthesis

because the virus needs DNA to be

replicated but the virus is ten kilo

bases in the human cell is a million

kilo bases you're shooting with nuclear

weapons at bunnies yes you probably know

cards a few bunnies but the forest

doesn't look very good after your hunt

is over I just want to read four things

that you can find on the back of these

drug ads where the front has handsome

tan men climbing up mountains and short

shorts and you know smiling women and

all this stuff on the back it says stuff

like at this time there is no evidence

that Zion will help you live longer or

have fewer of the medical problems

associated with AIDS it is not yet known

whether Crixivan will extend your life

or reduce your chances of getting

illnesses associated with HIV at present

there are no results none from

controlled clinical trials evaluating

the effects of Iram Yeun on the

incidence of opportunistic infections or

survival and finally there's one that

simply says there have been no clinical

trials conducted with combivir if these

drugs were showing health benefits which

has not appeared in the form of

long-term controlled scientific studies

published in the medical literature the

drug companies would be putting the good

news on the front page instead of

putting these disclaimers on the back

page

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I can pull up scientific studies left

and right that have been condemning

these popular drugs now for more than a

year and but by the time it filters down

to the people who believe they need them

for many of them it's too late

you know you'll put up with this kind of

stuff because you think that you've got

to do it

you think you've got to do take these

drugs I mean because otherwise you're

going to die and so you'll limp around

and you'll put up with the pins and

needles in your feet and you'll think

you know that oh with my belly my

belly's all bloated out and it feels all

like I'm like I'm like like I've eaten

two watermelons but but it's you know

it's it's better than the alternative

and it's like I don't know you know what

is the alternative did you ever question

what you were being told about your

diagnosis

No

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hey I'm Christine Maggiore I'm convinced

it's wrong to encourage HIV testing and

to administer death sentences the people

who test positive the HIV test is well

documented to cross-react with numerous

non HIV antibodies that can be found in

normal healthy people they read these as

HIV antibodies and give a positive test

result cold the flu flu shots

hepatitis herpes rheumatoid arthritis

other immunizations and pregnancy can

read as HIV positive on these tests

pregnant women who test positive are

told they have to take this a Z T or

abort that's an actual AZT label AZT is

a chemotherapy it's a known carcinogen

and works by destroying DNA chains as

they're forming in the body it causes

severe anemia so severe people need

blood transfusions it causes muscle

wasting neuropathy diarrhea dementia

spontaneous abortion fetal deformities

and lymphoma as we meet here today there

are parents across the country who risk

losing their children to state custody

for their refusal to give their children

a CT next week in Eugene Oregon

the parents of an HIV negative baby are

being charged with negligence and intent

to harm for objecting to orders to give

their baby AZT this baby's father is HIV

negative his sister's HIV negative and

he's HIV negative but since his mother

came up positive on an HIV antibody test

the state says that they must give this

HIV negative baby a Z T and she cannot

breastfeed him this isn't public health

policy this is madness our pediatrician

came to take a look at him and she gave

him a little check out and said he

looked great he apparently was very

healthy and all his vitals were working

right and everything was was good he

looked like a good good strong healthy

baby and but would we consider a visit

from this infectious diseases

pediatrician she came by and looked at

Felix and also agreed that he was a very

healthy looking baby look

fine but urged us Serg me to stop

breastfeeding right away and to start

the AZT treatment for him that that was

really the best thing to do in this case

so we we talked with her for a little

while about why we had decided not to

and that you know we we really had based

our decision on a lot of research and a

lot of soul-searching and you know just

kind of the basic information that we

had about our own health and the health

of my daughter and and especially my

health

she was just rather strident and for me

that she would be going to the Ethics

Board of the hospital and would be

consulting with the hospital's attorney

the petitioner from juvenile court

walked in my room with a Eugene police

officer in you know a police officer

with the gun in the holster and their

radio and the little book and I'm in the

whole uniform and everything basically I

was told that you know I really needed

to stop breastfeeding right away and I

really needed to start giving Felix AZT

right away and at this point I was in a

panic and so you know I hit the buzzer

told the nurses to please come in now

and bring the formula bottles and in the

bottles and I would start it right then

so so that's what we did but it didn't

make any difference because we were

already caught in the in the process

didn't make any difference so I realized

then I read the paper that my son was no

longer in my custody in my legal custody

and that he was as of that moment under

protective custody in the state of

Oregon and that they would leave him

with me but with those kind of orders

and that kind of paper in your hand you

realize that you know nothing is certain

would put it in a syringe without a

needle on it and I put this little teeny

tiny tube on the end of the syringe and

then I would tape the tube the end of

the tube onto my finger then I would

squeeze the syringe and I'd watch that

medicine go down the tube until it got

right to the end and then I would put

that finger in my baby's mouth and he

would start to suck and then I would

have to squeeze that syringe until it

was all the way down and there was still

some left in the tube so I have to take

the syringe off the tube and then draw

up some formula in that syringe and

reattach it to the tube and then push

the formula through so that he would get

all the 0.65 milliliters of AZT three

months into the pregnancy they tested me

I came up positive we fought them saying

we didn't believe it put them off we

don't want the drugs for two months and

we agreed to start the AZT five months

into the pregnancy and that's when they

took us down they put us in an office we

have these stack of papers and we just

signed it all she was doing seizures for

she disciplined she'd be sitting in her

tight her face was kind of tight nothing

and she terrorized enroll and then she

at one time on the couch we came out and

she was convulsing all right we call the

911 fever related seizures she's been

very very very hard to phrase and I know

that she was poisoned

she's a different child and it's

everybody a lot of people know rachel is

in a lead rachel slight what and Rachel

physically seems to be fine with that

she can't say one two three

she can't say one you can't no she can't

count to three and she can't say ABC and

she can't say your name and she can't

tell you how old she is

and then sometimes in her head I mean

she wakes up the mood like crying

sometimes and like in pain just scream

it and it's just it's hard to see what's

going on with her and it really hurts me

and I feel somewhat responsible cuz I

let those doctors give her those drugs

and I don't think that Paul and I can

really say that there's anything

specifically wrong with her because I

don't think anybody can really tell

Rachel's different she's just different

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you

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some of the concerns that I guess the

dissident side raises is that AZT is

contraindicated for everyone except

pregnant women children and people in

third-world countries

how does how does that work what's your

what your well that's an absolutely

ridiculous position it's totally false

we give AZT all the time to patients

with HIV disease monitor no we don't use

mono therapy ever we use AZT as part of

a combination regimen but let me ask you

something do you believe that HIV causes

AIDS

that's that's the general position that

seems to be the prevailing wisdom on it

do you personally believe that HIV

causes AIDS I don't have enough

information either way personally are

you one of the dissidents a dissident no

how can you say you don't have enough

information if you're doing a

documentary on this topic I'm forming an

opinion based on the information that I

got honestly Robin if you're at this

meeting you should have had an opinion

form before coming here

that's not necessarily true I mean I can

see that you're a man who stands

powerfully behind that that that idea

I stand powerfully and passionately

behind that idea and I'm concerned that

if you are someone who is going to

waffle on this topic that you will

attempt to edit my remarks in a way that

will make me look foolish I will not do

that I'm not out to take anyone's

dignity or anything I'm trying to put

together a series of interviews that

bring enlightenment to the subject

that's it as far as I'm concerned and I

hope this view is adequately represented

those who attempt to dispel the notion

that HIV is the cause of AIDS are

perpetrators of death and I would very

much for one like to see the

Constitution of the United States and

similar countries have some means in

place that we can charge people who are

responsible for endangering Public

Health with charges of endangerment and

bring them up on trial I think that

people like Peter Duesberg belong in

jail you know

the Toyotas and Mercedes shouldn't be

sold here because we want to sell

General Motors but when it comes to

science we act in America like the Pope

acts in all this only one tooth and only

one direction to marching one of the

distinguishing features of modern

science is skepticism the spirit to

challenge other people's work the spirit

to challenge your own work and I fear

that this spirit is disappearing in

particular in the case of HIV and AIDS

anybody that speaks up against or

challenges some of the entrenched

paradigms or principles is not only not

welcomed but they are strongly

criticized to the point of being called

names bigots homophobes baby-killers

flat-earthers holocaust deniers

certainly this would indicate to me that

the spirit of skepticism the spirit of

challenge the spirit of scientific

debate in this field is virtually

completely gone someone who would

perpetrate the notion that HIV is not

the cause of AIDS is perhaps motivated

by sentiments of pure evil that's such a

person may perhaps really want millions

of people in Africa and elsewhere to

become infected by this virus and go on

to die of it and who knows maybe there's

a hidden agenda behind the thoughts of a

madman maybe all psychopaths everywhere

have ways of getting their views across

that are sometimes camouflaged in

subterfuge but I suggest to you that

Peter Duesberg is probably the closest

thing we have in this world to a

scientific psychopath there are a lot of

other scientists that raise the

challenges that he raises and now the

introduced finished thanks I had all the

students I wanted I'd all the lab space

I needed I get all the trans awarded

electing the National Academy I became

California scientists of the year all my

papers were published I could do no

wrong almost professionally that is

until I started questioning the claim

that HIV or the hypothesis that HIV is

the cause of it then everything changed

the disease that is now known as malaria

was thought up until the middle of the

19th century to be something caused by

organisms in the air hence the term mal

area I mean the French thought that it

was a disease of lethargy and a fever

caused by being in tropical climates

because there was something in the air

it was not till the middle of the

nineteenth century that they discovered

that malaria had nothing to do with the

air but it was caused by the bite of the

anopheles mosquito that's the vector for

for malaria so you know the causation

for disease the causation for illness

for a number of other natural phenomenon

in astronomy and microbiology is always

something that's open for robust and

vigorous dispute and debate and AIDS is

no different it has been something of a

marvel to me how colleagues in the

business who normally would be the first

to challenge blatantly exaggerated

claims that come from organizations like

you nades and the w-h-o and some of

these other major organizations they're

completely uncritically accepted and

uncritically reported and this is

harmful because it's helped every time

these agencies feel that concern about

aids is beginning to die away in in the

countries where it's a diminishing

problem they issue new reports with new

projections and new exaggerated claims

to try to keep the funds flowing and

keep the concern there

I can understand this from one

perspective that because they have the

mindset that this is such a terrible

epidemic and because they've closed

their minds to other ways of thinking

they feel that they're justified in

doing this but it's a dangerous a

dangerous way of behaving and it's

helped to distort the science and

maintain some illusory aspects of this

for much longer than need have been the

case I don't think most people got

involved it really looked at it and said

I don't think this is really true but I

won't get into it anyhow it wasn't like

that it was like they were never

questioning it because it was the easy

way to go

you fought I mean if somebody's paying

you 150 thousand dollars a year for

working on something you don't have to

be questioning whether that's useful

every day because it's useful to you I

mean if you're trying to work your way

up in IBM you don't immediately go to

the to the chairman of the company and

say does this company actually do what

it says it does I mean are we really for

real I mean I mean you don't do that

right so the fact that everybody that

works for IBM believes in IBM as a

company does not say that IBM really

does what it says it does it just says

well of course everybody it works for

IBM the kind of toes the line right so

everybody in the field of AIDS

works for AIDS in a way I mean you can

think of it as a big corporation that's

completely funded by the federal

government it's a big company it's a big

organization which has a pecking order

not quite as distinct to some companies

but not as indistinct as you might think

it is not a but it's not 30,000

independent scientists working in their

own labs with their own ideas see so to

say that they all go for it it says

whether I'll belong to the club don't

they they're all being paid out of the

same coffer and they're not going to be

paid if they don't go for it so you

can't the only way to resolve this for

yourself is to say I guess I'm going to

have to learn a little about it

I feel like I'm waking up from something

five years sleep in which I agreed to do

something that I didn't really believe

in or want to do but I did out of fear

and and a really kind of really pressure

I think that the basic paradigm that we

all function under with HIV and AIDS is

one of fear it's assumed that you're

infected and that you have a death

sentence it's assumed that if you don't

do follow doctor's orders

you're going to get sick and die there

are many many people who are not

following doctor's orders and who are

doing quite well in fact many of them I

see daily and they seem to be doing

better than the people who are following

doctor's orders

I hope HIV doesn't cause AIDS you know

and then looking at all these questions

and all these unanswered questions I'm

getting it more and more to believe that

HIV doesn't cause AIDS and if this

should turn out to be the case then I

can live a free life you know free from

fear free from the terror that has been

subjected on me in the last ten years

for me the other side of AIDS is

learning to be a critical thinker to

really make decisions for myself rather

than let Society or a doctor or a

pharmaceutical company tell me what's

best for me to really consider all my

options and to live based on what feels

right in my heart

to not make decisions based on fear and

death but to make decisions based on

life the reality seems to confirm me

every single year we have never cured

one single AIDS patient we have never

been able to predict the epidemic it was

said to be exploding in the general

population

it hasn't prostitutes were supposed to

be getting it doctors were supposed to

be getting it because they're the front

lines of the viral attack scientists

working with HIV were said to die from

AIDS that hasn't happened a vaccine was

supposed to be found

we have no vaccine well what more can

you ask for it should not at other

things it fails every year think another

one is not cannot be considered in this

country the evidence that I have seen

shows me nothing of the sort

to resemble anything approaching a

scientific basis of evidence that what's

called AIDS is caused by a viral entity

or by a retro

virus whatever the initials are HIV i hv

VIH you can scramble them any way you

like the cause and cure for AIDS is as

near at hand as an alternative

hypothesis questioning is is healthy

questioning is what leads to answers

science research investigation of any

time kind begins with questions and when

we restrict where those questions can go

who can ask them and under what

circumstances we're restricting progress

and knowledge and when we're looking for

answers to a problem that is unresolved

that has caused a tremendous human

suffering on many levels lives being

lost lives being forever changed

you know people commit suicide have

abortions break up relationships give up

careers and all kinds of things based on

the idea that HIV causes AIDS we have

the right to question this questioning

is a good thing and we should be joining

hands there shouldn't be this my side

your side we should be joining hands the

you know so-called mainstream AIDS

organizations with the so-called

alternative AIDS organizations like ours

in an effort to explain the anomalies to

fill in the gaping holes in our

knowledge and to embrace what we don't

understand in order to come to some

answers and solutions that can truly be

of help to people

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Oh

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to sleep so long in a country that's

gone wrong

would you rather stare the screen listen

to a song stick stick jab can't see

lose my baby boy swallows all the hill

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here it's pure joke a little smoke step

right up to the eye scan let's all slide

down the spoiled and gland it's hard

living in the white man's world having

straight hair but dreaming of girls your

street has lost three

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one day I'll join me

one day

one day I'll join live

they all join it mother

I

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you

you