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This programme contains
some strong language.
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Is it working?
3
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I think... Yeah.
4
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I have to check the battery,
that means it's working. How's that?
5
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I know that you gave
first exhibitions
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00:01:13,110 --> 00:01:16,110
to Hans Hofmann
and Clyfford Still and...
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Baziotes. That's remarkable.
Motherwell.
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Rothko and Pollock.
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I think she was most proud of
her achievement with Pollock.
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Because nobody believed in Pollock
the way she did.
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She started with
a very mixed bag of paintings.
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And she bought much more cleverly
as she went on.
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In the end, she really seemed
to know what she was doing.
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It seems to me that you have
an intuition for talent,
15
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even before it's realised.
16
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Yes. Maybe.
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You know, I became an addict, and I
sort of couldn't help it any more.
18
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She wanted to come into her own
as her own person,
19
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and art became the vehicle.
20
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She wanted this art as a mirror
for her own strangeness.
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It's a very fulfilled career,
to be involved with the surrealists
22
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and then the abstract
expressionists.
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So she begins in one place
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and she ends up in another place.
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She's a bridge character.
26
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You don't have to paint a figure
in order to express human feelings.
27
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Modern art, it seems to me,
28
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is working, isn't it?
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And expressing an inner world.
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Did you feel it was a crazy life?
31
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Definitely, yes.
32
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I think that she did remarkably well
33
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for someone who had
no art historical training,
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00:03:39,450 --> 00:03:45,700
who had no, really, sort of
innate taste or flair for things,
35
00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:48,530
but who had a passion
36
00:03:48,530 --> 00:03:52,240
to use art to promote herself
37
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and turn herself into
a personality, to a star.
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00:03:57,110 --> 00:03:59,950
She could...
Because of her lack of beauty,
39
00:03:59,950 --> 00:04:03,780
she was never going to
make it as a siren,
40
00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:08,570
as a desirable, glamorous,
social figure.
41
00:04:08,570 --> 00:04:12,910
But, by God, she made it
as a collector
42
00:04:12,910 --> 00:04:16,950
and as a kind of collector
that had never quite existed before.
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00:04:34,910 --> 00:04:38,740
Peggy, being a bit of a narcissist,
44
00:04:38,740 --> 00:04:43,450
was absolutely delighted at
the idea of having a biographer.
45
00:04:43,450 --> 00:04:45,950
She called me her
"last great friend"
46
00:04:45,950 --> 00:04:48,410
and when people would call
in the afternoon
47
00:04:48,410 --> 00:04:52,030
or come to see her, she'd say,
"I'm with my biographer!"
48
00:04:56,820 --> 00:05:01,240
Peggy appealed to me
because of her eccentricities.
49
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,530
And she had just
a wonderfully colourful family.
50
00:05:14,820 --> 00:05:18,990
Both sides of Peggy's family
came over and started off
51
00:05:18,990 --> 00:05:22,410
as peddlers, really,
selling door-to-door.
52
00:05:24,070 --> 00:05:27,030
In the case of her mother's
family, the Seligmans,
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00:05:27,030 --> 00:05:29,070
they went into banking.
54
00:05:30,530 --> 00:05:34,530
And her father's family, the
Guggenheims, they went into mining.
55
00:05:34,530 --> 00:05:35,950
And within 50 years,
56
00:05:35,950 --> 00:05:38,950
they progressed from
selling door-to-door
57
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to having these enormous fortunes.
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00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,820
Even though the Guggenheims became
much wealthier than the Seligmans,
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00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:49,660
the Seligmans looked down on them,
because they had come later.
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00:05:50,950 --> 00:05:52,240
Her mother Florette
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00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,410
was one of the youngest
of the James Seligman children,
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00:05:55,410 --> 00:05:57,610
and they were all highly eccentric.
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00:05:57,610 --> 00:06:00,280
Florette would repeat
everything three times.
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00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:15,240
Peggy's aunts and uncles were
all famously off their rockers.
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00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:18,990
There was another aunt, Fanny,
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00:06:18,990 --> 00:06:21,200
who used to sing all her phrases.
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00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,570
And so she'd arrive at
somebody's house and say...
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00:06:24,570 --> 00:06:27,410
IN SING-SONG VOICE:
"Hello! I'm here!"
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00:06:27,410 --> 00:06:29,910
Her husband was driven
so nuts by her
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that he tried to kill her
with a baseball bat.
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00:06:32,860 --> 00:06:35,030
And since that didn't work,
72
00:06:35,030 --> 00:06:37,280
he then drowned himself with weights
73
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in the New York City reservoir.
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00:06:44,410 --> 00:06:46,820
Ben, Peggy's father,
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00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:51,030
was highly established
by the time that Peggy was born.
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00:06:53,070 --> 00:06:56,740
She had two sisters,
Benita and Hazel,
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and she adored Benita.
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I had no other friends.
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Didn't your mother invite
little girls over to play with you?
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Never.
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They lived like royalty.
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They had beautiful carriages,
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mansions on Fifth Avenue,
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nannies, servants galore.
85
00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:32,410
Joseph Seligman was great friends
of Ulysses S. Grant,
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and would entertain him.
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00:07:44,410 --> 00:07:46,070
The Guggenheim brothers,
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in addition to being known for
their financial acumen and money,
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00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:52,530
were also known
to have multiple affairs.
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00:08:39,410 --> 00:08:42,910
When Ben Guggenheim
went down in the Titanic
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00:08:42,910 --> 00:08:47,660
and his brothers went to see
who was rescued on the Carpathia -
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down came his mistress,
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who was paid off by
the Guggenheims to keep quiet.
94
00:09:01,110 --> 00:09:05,240
You must have been extremely shocked
when he died on the Titanic? Yes.
95
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,110
Did you feel angry and mad
at your father
96
00:09:08,110 --> 00:09:10,740
for not trying to save himself more?
97
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He gave away his life vest!
98
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How could I be angry?
I thought he was very noble.
99
00:10:12,910 --> 00:10:14,860
And she wasn't a rich Guggenheim.
100
00:10:14,860 --> 00:10:16,280
People thought she was,
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but she wasn't anything like as rich
as most of the Guggenheims.
102
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Well, I'm sure that
the poor Guggenheim was relative.
103
00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:26,280
I mean, she wasn't in any way poor.
104
00:10:27,610 --> 00:10:32,860
I first met Peggy Guggenheim...
in the '70s...
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00:10:32,860 --> 00:10:34,530
Early '70s.
106
00:10:34,530 --> 00:10:37,240
I liked her because
I sort of felt sorry for her.
107
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,820
I mean, there was a kind of
vulnerability about her.
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She had this very strange accent,
and I once said to her,
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"Where did you get
that weird way of talking?"
110
00:10:45,950 --> 00:10:49,530
And she said, "There was one school
on West 72nd Street
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"that about nine of us went to,
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00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,030
"and we were all
super-rich Jewish girls
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"and we all learned to talk
this way and we still do."
114
00:10:59,570 --> 00:11:02,740
Peggy loved to shock and
be the centre of attention.
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00:11:02,740 --> 00:11:05,820
She shaved off her eyebrows
when she was in school,
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and that became a cause celebre
117
00:11:08,070 --> 00:11:12,070
because that was so avant-garde,
and so Peggy was always a rebel.
118
00:11:13,410 --> 00:11:16,360
She was supposed to inherit money
119
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,780
and marry someone
who also inherited money.
120
00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:22,320
And she, at some point
early in her life,
121
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,990
decided that that was not
going to be who she was.
122
00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:28,280
When she was in her early 20s,
123
00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,610
she went to work at
that bookstore Sunwise Turn.
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00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,530
It's very strange, you move
through life in a kind of dream.
125
00:12:26,110 --> 00:12:29,200
Paris. It was just the most
exciting place, culturally,
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00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:30,990
in the world, at that point.
127
00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:33,740
And not only in the visual arts,
128
00:12:33,740 --> 00:12:35,950
it was going on in music and ballet
129
00:12:35,950 --> 00:12:38,160
and theatre and everything else.
130
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Dada! Italique!
131
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Metallique! Mysterique!
132
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Dadaism is really coming out
133
00:13:04,820 --> 00:13:07,570
of this atrocity of World War I.
134
00:13:07,570 --> 00:13:11,570
Just the senseless amount
of death and bloodshed
135
00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:15,240
and also the sickness and
twistedness of the propaganda.
136
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,490
So they're creating
this language of disillusionment,
137
00:13:19,490 --> 00:13:21,990
of this kind of utter disgust
138
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:24,780
with what the civilised
world is doing.
139
00:13:32,490 --> 00:13:36,280
She found the whole
Bohemian life there
140
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,780
to be this alternative
to the bourgeois,
141
00:13:38,780 --> 00:13:40,610
or the haute bourgeois life,
142
00:13:40,610 --> 00:13:43,660
that she'd always found herself
to be an outsider in anyway.
143
00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:48,110
And so she immediately felt
"these are my people".
144
00:13:51,780 --> 00:13:54,610
Isn't that gorgeous?
It's gorgeous. Ah, so beautiful.
145
00:13:54,610 --> 00:13:56,740
I was going to ask you
what you were thinking of
146
00:13:56,740 --> 00:13:57,910
when you did that picture.
147
00:13:57,910 --> 00:14:00,530
God knows.
SHE LAUGHS
148
00:14:00,530 --> 00:14:02,990
I think I must have known
I looked gorgeous.
149
00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:09,860
The artists from all over Europe
and the United States
150
00:14:09,860 --> 00:14:11,610
were making their way to Paris
151
00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:14,410
as though there were
some magnet pulling them.
152
00:14:47,780 --> 00:14:50,240
Had you ever considered
going to college?
153
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,910
Yes, and my sister
talked me out of it.
154
00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:54,820
I consider myself self-educated.
155
00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,990
When you sat in the cafes,
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you absorbed surrealism
and you absorbed Cubism,
157
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you absorbed the ideas of the time.
158
00:15:28,070 --> 00:15:30,950
GENTLE GROANING AND PANTING
159
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,820
Did he court you? Yes. He took me
to the top of the Eiffel Tower,
160
00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:51,410
where he proposed to me.
161
00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:53,530
And then I ended up by marrying him.
162
00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:58,200
And I've got two children,
Pegeen and Sindbad.
163
00:15:59,610 --> 00:16:02,280
We had terrible fights all the time.
164
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,240
The fights were so many and so awful
and so insane and...
165
00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:47,950
You wrote that,
"Oh, husbands always get better..."
166
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Better after divorce, yeah!
167
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Oh, he became my best friend
afterwards, yes.
168
00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,240
Yes, when he stopped
beating me up, mm-hm.
169
00:16:57,570 --> 00:17:00,530
Who has been the most
important man in your life,
170
00:17:00,530 --> 00:17:02,740
or can you answer that question?
171
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Yes, but that wasn't an artist,
that was a writer. Someone...
172
00:17:06,820 --> 00:17:10,110
Er, an Englishman who's dead,
who's been dead 30 years.
173
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He was a wonderful sportsman.
174
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Used to climb rocks
with my children.
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Was he fond of your children,
was he...? Oh, yes.
176
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Did they love him? Yes.
177
00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:34,280
Her sister Benita
died in childbirth,
178
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,160
so Peggy was bereft.
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And something that does not
appear in her memoirs -
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it's a glaring omission -
181
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,990
but her sister Hazel went up
to the roof of the Hotel Surrey
182
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and she took her three-year-old
and her one-year-old up there,
183
00:19:47,740 --> 00:19:50,360
but she was divorcing their father,
Milton Waldman,
184
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:51,860
and she'd gone around saying,
185
00:19:51,860 --> 00:19:55,070
"I'd rather see the children dead
than have Milton have them."
186
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So somehow, mysteriously,
187
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they wind up dead over the parapet.
188
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Playing Peggy Guggenheim,
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I got hooked on
something mysterious about her,
190
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,410
something enigmatic...
191
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,780
..that to this day
I don't entirely understand.
192
00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:43,070
She had this hunger,
which is about life,
193
00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:49,160
pulling against this undertow
of unbeatable sadness.
194
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,570
So her sexual life was
her way of connecting.
195
00:20:53,570 --> 00:20:55,740
Humanly connecting.
196
00:20:58,740 --> 00:21:01,860
Well, I had so many odd people!
197
00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:04,820
I just... I don't know,
because I was lonely, I guess.
198
00:21:04,820 --> 00:21:09,660
I think I was sort of
a nymphomaniac!
199
00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:11,070
She wanted lovers.
200
00:21:11,070 --> 00:21:14,780
Er, everybody else had lovers,
why shouldn't she have one?
201
00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:18,780
If I had one question for Peggy
Guggenheim, it would probably be,
202
00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:21,030
how was Samuel Beckett in bed?
203
00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:23,660
His... I suppose his conversation,
204
00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:26,990
his mind, probably fascinated me
more than anything else.
205
00:21:28,530 --> 00:21:31,780
She said that she'd never
met anyone like Beckett.
206
00:21:31,780 --> 00:21:33,660
They'd been in bed for four days
207
00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:35,610
and the only time they separated
208
00:21:35,610 --> 00:21:38,910
was when he reached out the door
to get the sandwiches
209
00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:41,200
the room service had sent for them!
210
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,280
I liked intellectual men.
211
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,660
I liked very tall, dark,
good-looking men.
212
00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:50,490
But all my lovers
certainly were not that.
213
00:21:50,490 --> 00:21:54,030
The artists, she loved them
because they were artists,
214
00:21:54,030 --> 00:21:56,030
not because they were sexy men.
215
00:21:56,030 --> 00:21:59,160
I mean, they actually
were sexy men...
216
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,990
but I think sex and art
217
00:22:00,990 --> 00:22:05,280
went absolutely hand-in-hand
in her brain.
218
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:12,030
She went for the bad boys
and, er, it didn't do her any good.
219
00:22:12,030 --> 00:22:15,910
I think art gave
a meaning to her life
220
00:22:15,910 --> 00:22:19,610
as well as confirmed certain...
221
00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:22,110
The modern art, the avant-gardes
222
00:22:22,110 --> 00:22:26,610
confirmed her sense of being,
in some peculiar, way an outsider.
223
00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:30,490
Art became her way of
finding herself emotionally.
224
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,320
I was in search of an occupation
225
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,950
and to have an interest,
something to do,
226
00:22:41,950 --> 00:22:44,360
after my children were
in boarding school
227
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:46,780
and I was alone
in the country in England,
228
00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:48,070
and I came up to London
229
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and opened this art gallery in
Cork Street called Guggenheim Jeune.
230
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:56,240
She's mulling around whether
231
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,740
she should start a publishing
company or an art gallery,
232
00:22:59,740 --> 00:23:03,360
and one of her friends says, "Well,
start an art gallery, it's cheaper."
233
00:23:33,410 --> 00:23:35,700
She quite early on began to show
234
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:37,700
the work of
the European surrealists.
235
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:40,320
A little exhibition for Cocteau,
236
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,660
she was introduced to Tanguy,
237
00:23:42,660 --> 00:23:45,410
she knew Andre Breton
already by this time.
238
00:23:56,410 --> 00:23:59,490
How did Guggenheim Jeune
change your former life?
239
00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:01,660
Must have been
a dramatic difference.
240
00:24:01,660 --> 00:24:03,410
Completely different, yes.
241
00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:05,780
I always adapt myself
to everything very quickly.
242
00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:09,740
Did you just plunge in and devote
all your energy to it? Yes, yes.
243
00:24:09,740 --> 00:24:12,950
Except the time that
I ran to Paris to see Beckett!
244
00:24:29,450 --> 00:24:32,360
surrealism decided that
the subconscious mind
245
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:35,780
was the source of
all great creativity
246
00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:39,160
and this was the answer
to the art of the future.
247
00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:46,360
I think Peggy was
a woman of great intuitions.
248
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,240
She learned quite quickly
249
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,240
what it meant to have an eye.
250
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,110
She followed her own intuitions,
she had the courage to do so,
251
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:56,280
and that is a pattern
that goes on throughout her life.
252
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,410
She wanted this outsider art,
253
00:25:00,410 --> 00:25:02,570
art that was then outrageous,
254
00:25:02,570 --> 00:25:05,200
that was different.
255
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,700
Strange art mirroring herself.
256
00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:12,610
Peggy was absolutely
at the cutting edge.
257
00:25:14,660 --> 00:25:17,950
She gave a huge number of shows
at her gallery
258
00:25:17,950 --> 00:25:21,030
and that alone was
a major influence
259
00:25:21,030 --> 00:25:24,280
on British thinking
about modern art.
260
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,530
The English, who really,
261
00:25:26,530 --> 00:25:31,410
except for the 1936 surrealist show
at the Royal Academy,
262
00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:34,410
hadn't much idea about modern art.
263
00:25:34,410 --> 00:25:36,700
Most people thought it was rubbish.
264
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:39,950
Mrs Guggenheim,
but you might, as a patron,
265
00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:42,160
acquire a collection of rubbish.
266
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,490
That's always possible.
267
00:25:43,490 --> 00:25:45,820
Yes, of course, easily,
if you have no taste
268
00:25:45,820 --> 00:25:47,740
and you don't know what you're doing
269
00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:50,360
and you don't take advice
from the right people.
270
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,450
You can get yourself
in an awful lot of trouble.
271
00:25:53,450 --> 00:25:57,740
Peggy Guggenheim really worked
with a kind of consensus of advice,
272
00:25:57,740 --> 00:25:59,860
and it was only from artists
273
00:25:59,860 --> 00:26:03,160
and only from people
she really respected,
274
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,570
and the biggest voice in her head,
the strongest advice,
275
00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:09,950
the one she probably took most
often, was from Marcel Duchamp.
276
00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:16,700
I knew Marcel Duchamp since 1921.
277
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:19,860
I met him because he was a boyfriend
of one of my best friends,
278
00:26:19,860 --> 00:26:21,320
Mary Reynolds.
279
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,160
And after that
we became great friends.
280
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,910
He taught me everything about
modern art that I know today,
281
00:26:28,910 --> 00:26:32,700
taught me the difference between
surrealism and abstract art.
282
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:35,910
He arranged all my exhibitions,
did everything for me.
283
00:26:35,910 --> 00:26:38,360
I don't know what I would
have done without him,
284
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,910
because he really was
my great, great teacher.
285
00:26:41,910 --> 00:26:43,570
I thought of the idea of a box,
286
00:26:43,570 --> 00:26:47,410
in which they would be mounted,
like in a small museum.
287
00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:50,530
Practically all your work
is in here.
288
00:26:50,530 --> 00:26:52,240
Practically all of it,
289
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,700
I think very few things are missing.
290
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:58,820
And there it is.
291
00:26:58,820 --> 00:27:02,700
The Mona Lisa with a moustache
and a goatee.
292
00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:06,450
That was, of course,
a great iconoclastic gesture
293
00:27:06,450 --> 00:27:08,160
on my part and...
294
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,360
Sacrilegious.
295
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:11,700
Sacrilegious, blasphemous,
all you want.
296
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:17,160
The Bottle Rack was a perfect
expression of the readymade
297
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,320
because it had no connection
whatsoever with art.
298
00:27:24,610 --> 00:27:28,860
The most mundane everyday object
299
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:32,490
could be elevated to fine art
300
00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:34,990
by the mere choice of an artist,
301
00:27:34,990 --> 00:27:37,360
and this is the Duchampian conceit,
302
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:41,160
that opens up
a Pandora's box of...
303
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,030
future avenues for art.
304
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:11,820
Miss Guggenheim,
in the gallery in London,
305
00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:14,360
who were some of the artists
whom you introduced
306
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:16,320
who created big excitement there?
307
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,740
Well, I suppose Kandinsky
really was the most exciting.
308
00:28:19,740 --> 00:28:23,240
He had his first show
in England in my gallery.
309
00:28:27,660 --> 00:28:30,410
During this period,
Kandinsky asked me
310
00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:34,070
if I would ask my uncle,
Solomon Guggenheim,
311
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:37,410
to buy one of his early paintings
which he'd always wanted.
312
00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:41,780
So I asked him if he would
like to buy this painting.
313
00:28:41,780 --> 00:28:45,450
I got an answer from him saying
his curator, the Baroness Rebay,
314
00:28:45,450 --> 00:28:47,110
would send me her response.
315
00:28:48,740 --> 00:28:51,990
And this is it,
which I shall now read.
316
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:53,990
"Dear Mrs Guggenheim Jeune,
317
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:58,110
"your gallery will be the last one
of our foundation to use
318
00:28:58,110 --> 00:29:01,360
"if ever the need should force us
to use a sales gallery."
319
00:29:02,530 --> 00:29:05,610
"You will soon find you are
propagating mediocrity,
320
00:29:05,610 --> 00:29:06,950
"if not trash."
321
00:29:08,410 --> 00:29:11,160
Peggy's nemesis in many ways,
Hilla Rebay,
322
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,030
was the founding director of
the Guggenheim here in New York.
323
00:29:15,030 --> 00:29:17,700
She was Solomon Guggenheim's adviser
324
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:19,950
and Solomon was Peggy's uncle.
325
00:29:21,660 --> 00:29:24,660
Hilla of course was
a dynamic person,
326
00:29:24,660 --> 00:29:27,950
I guess rather possessive,
very assertive.
327
00:29:27,950 --> 00:29:29,450
She was a bombshell,
328
00:29:29,450 --> 00:29:32,320
and my grandfather
was captivated by her.
329
00:29:50,570 --> 00:29:52,950
They were both following
different paths,
330
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:55,240
they both had different ideas.
331
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,660
Peggy was often considered...to be
the black sheep of the family.
332
00:29:59,660 --> 00:30:03,860
So I wrote to the Baroness Rebay
this response.
333
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:34,780
At Peggy's gallery in London
she gave a show of children's art,
334
00:30:34,780 --> 00:30:35,990
and it was the first show
335
00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:38,530
that anything by Lucian Freud
was ever exhibited.
336
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:42,820
And what was the inspiration
for the children's exhibit?
337
00:30:42,820 --> 00:30:45,320
Because Pegeen painted
and I thought it would be nice
338
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,410
to have a lot of
schoolchildren's pictures also.
339
00:30:48,410 --> 00:30:50,530
It was a beautiful exhibition.
340
00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:56,160
No. Pegeen was really a painter.
341
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:57,570
No-one never influenced her,
342
00:30:57,570 --> 00:31:00,450
she was absolutely self-taught
and completely independent.
343
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:05,200
What was Pegeen like as a child?
344
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,280
She was always very, very beautiful.
345
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,530
She had a complexion like a peach,
346
00:31:10,530 --> 00:31:14,030
and wonderful
silver-flaxen golden hair.
347
00:31:15,070 --> 00:31:16,360
How did you get along?
348
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,820
Was she an easy child to bring up
or was she...difficult?
349
00:31:19,820 --> 00:31:23,360
Well, she never wanted
to leave me or her governess.
350
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,160
She was...very...very insecure.
351
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,820
I had a big show of Tanguy, and that
was one of the most successful ones.
352
00:31:52,820 --> 00:31:56,700
We really sold quite
a lot of paintings.
353
00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:00,860
What was Tanguy like?
354
00:32:00,860 --> 00:32:02,860
Oh, he was adorable.
355
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:05,570
Did he paint things for you
when he visited you?
356
00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:07,780
Yes, he painted marvellous earrings.
357
00:32:09,860 --> 00:32:12,950
Would you have become
such a collector, do you think,
358
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:15,820
if you had not known
so many artists personally?
359
00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:18,990
Certainly, definitely.
Well, then, which came first -
360
00:32:18,990 --> 00:32:21,280
is it the art or the people,
or was it both?
361
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,030
No, the art came first, and the
people came because of my idea
362
00:32:25,030 --> 00:32:29,160
to have this gallery, and by
degrees I met more and more artists.
363
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,910
Do you think that great artists
are great people necessarily?
364
00:32:32,910 --> 00:32:35,070
They're certainly
much more interesting
365
00:32:35,070 --> 00:32:37,200
than people who aren't intellectual,
366
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,110
who aren't interested in the arts,
who aren't creative.
367
00:32:40,110 --> 00:32:43,410
They're certainly more interesting
than businesspeople.
368
00:32:43,410 --> 00:32:47,530
But do they measure up,
or do they equal their own work?
369
00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:49,570
Sometimes they're disappointing,
370
00:32:49,570 --> 00:32:53,360
but sometimes they're even better
than their work.
371
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,660
When one meets artists, they turn
out to be quite different
372
00:32:56,660 --> 00:32:59,280
to what one expects.
373
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,570
Brancusi used to say,
"Art is a fraud,"
374
00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:05,360
and I even say art is a mirage.
375
00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:08,030
But what I believe in
376
00:33:08,030 --> 00:33:09,530
is the artist, the man.
377
00:33:10,820 --> 00:33:17,200
So what to do, except to let
everybody be the individual
378
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,160
and be as much of
an individual as they can be,
379
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,490
and everyone for oneself,
380
00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:24,070
like in a shipwreck.
381
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:29,320
And this venture only lasted
about a year and a half,
382
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,700
because it became so expensive
I thought it wasn't worthwhile
383
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,070
to go on trying to run
a commercial gallery,
384
00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:36,910
because I never sold anything.
385
00:33:36,910 --> 00:33:39,570
So I decided it was better
to spend the money
386
00:33:39,570 --> 00:33:41,570
by having a museum of modern art,
387
00:33:41,570 --> 00:33:44,660
which didn't exist in London.
388
00:33:44,660 --> 00:33:47,740
Once she'd decided to close
Guggenheim Jeune
389
00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:51,820
she thought she'd invest a great
deal more money and make a museum.
390
00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:55,700
So she signs up Herbert Read
391
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:58,030
to inveigle him
to leave his position
392
00:33:58,030 --> 00:33:59,700
as the Burlington Magazine editor
393
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:03,240
and to be the director of her
planned future museum in London.
394
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,740
And so it was for
the opening exhibition
395
00:34:05,740 --> 00:34:08,360
that he prepared this list -
legendary list -
396
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,160
of all the major movements
and artists of the 20th century.
397
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,160
But unfortunately the war came
just at that time,
398
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,360
and I decided it
would be impossible
399
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,410
to have a museum in London
400
00:34:19,410 --> 00:34:22,110
that might be bombed any moment.
401
00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:33,860
Most people think that everything
the Nazis did was attacking,
402
00:34:33,860 --> 00:34:37,320
you know, primarily the Jews,
403
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,660
but this was also
an attack on modernism,
404
00:34:40,660 --> 00:34:42,610
and it culminated in 1937
405
00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:45,780
with an enormous exhibition
in Munich
406
00:34:45,780 --> 00:34:49,200
called Entartete Kunst,
or Degenerate Art.
407
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:50,910
It's kind of amazing
408
00:34:50,910 --> 00:34:56,530
that all this energy went into
collecting and bringing together
409
00:34:56,530 --> 00:35:00,410
650 examples of art
that people should dislike.
410
00:35:15,570 --> 00:35:18,070
Then, when the war began,
you left London.
411
00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:21,860
Well, I was sent to Paris
to collect the pictures on the list
412
00:35:21,860 --> 00:35:23,910
that Herbert Read had made for me.
413
00:35:26,610 --> 00:35:28,360
During the first month of the war
414
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,280
I tried to buy one painting a day.
415
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,070
How did you go about doing that?
416
00:35:35,070 --> 00:35:38,320
Well, I had friends in Paris,
Madame Van Doesburg,
417
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,660
who was my best friend
for years and years.
418
00:35:41,660 --> 00:35:46,200
And I had a friend who was a sort of
art dealer, called Howard Putzel,
419
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,700
and I had Marcel Duchamp,
who introduced me to artists,
420
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:51,610
and between these three people
421
00:35:51,610 --> 00:35:54,070
and I went around on my own
and bought things.
422
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,320
People telephoned me all day long
423
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,530
and even came to my house
in the morning
424
00:35:59,530 --> 00:36:01,360
and brought me pictures in bed.
425
00:36:02,570 --> 00:36:06,200
And actually the only one
I literally bought in bed
426
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:07,700
was this little Dali.
427
00:36:11,570 --> 00:36:13,660
She was lucky in her choice of time,
428
00:36:13,660 --> 00:36:18,490
because in 1939 the artists
were desperate to sell things,
429
00:36:18,490 --> 00:36:21,160
and a number of the dealers
were Jewish
430
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,200
and were getting the hell out
of Paris before the Germans arrived.
431
00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:46,410
During the war
I wanted to buy a Brancusi.
432
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,070
This is Brancusi's Bird In Space.
433
00:36:51,070 --> 00:36:55,910
I think it's one of Brancusi's
favourite pieces of sculpture.
434
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:58,360
I used to go and see him
almost every day
435
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,700
and he was a marvellous little man,
sort of half-God and half-peasant.
436
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,950
When I went back to take away
this Bird In Space,
437
00:37:17,950 --> 00:37:20,030
Brancusi brought it out
in his arms
438
00:37:20,030 --> 00:37:22,570
and tears were
strolling down his cheeks,
439
00:37:22,570 --> 00:37:25,700
and I never knew if it was
because he was parting with me
440
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:27,410
or with his favourite bird.
441
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:34,240
Do you remember Giacometti?
442
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:35,990
Oh, very well, he was wonderful.
443
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:38,240
He looked like a lion. Really?
444
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,950
Yes, he had a very big head
and shaggy hair and...
445
00:37:42,110 --> 00:37:44,030
His conversation was marvellous.
446
00:37:45,610 --> 00:37:47,160
How did you bargain?
447
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,410
I mean, how difficult was it
to get paintings at that time
448
00:37:50,410 --> 00:37:52,610
at the price
you were prepared to pay?
449
00:37:52,610 --> 00:37:55,280
Then... There was no question
of bargaining in those days
450
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,490
because everything was so cheap.
451
00:37:57,490 --> 00:37:59,320
She came in at a good moment,
452
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,530
I mean, so far as
prices were concerned,
453
00:38:01,530 --> 00:38:04,070
and she didn't have
all that much money to spend,
454
00:38:04,070 --> 00:38:08,570
and I think she did spend it
rather cleverly and cannily.
455
00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:12,530
And, God knows, she's a Guggenheim,
she knew how to do those things -
456
00:38:12,530 --> 00:38:15,280
I mean, that's one of
the things she inherited.
457
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,780
She managed to put together
the nucleus
458
00:38:17,780 --> 00:38:20,530
of one of the great collections
of modern art
459
00:38:20,530 --> 00:38:24,660
for the almost laughable sum
of $40,000.
460
00:38:24,660 --> 00:38:28,240
For $40,000 you couldn't buy one
of the paintings you have in that?
461
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:31,160
Not today. Not even one of the 125?
462
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,740
No, not even one probably,
isn't that crazy?
463
00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:38,110
She just broke all the rules.
464
00:38:38,110 --> 00:38:40,950
There weren't that many precedents
for women working,
465
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:42,570
let alone working in the arts.
466
00:38:42,570 --> 00:38:44,740
It was a very male-dominated field.
467
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:48,200
It was my freedom.
468
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,910
My liberation.
469
00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:56,160
Peggy is a sort of model
for the liberated woman.
470
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,410
The very disturbed liberated woman!
471
00:39:01,450 --> 00:39:03,570
She did what she wanted to do,
472
00:39:03,570 --> 00:39:05,530
she had the means to do it,
473
00:39:05,530 --> 00:39:10,660
but I think she really was
in advance of her times.
474
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:13,490
There were other women,
475
00:39:13,490 --> 00:39:17,280
and there was, above all,
another American Jewish woman
476
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,410
in the form of Gertrude Stein
477
00:39:19,410 --> 00:39:22,780
whose example Peggy
may have been following.
478
00:39:25,740 --> 00:39:31,570
I think that Peggy would love to
have had Gertrude Stein's...gifts
479
00:39:31,570 --> 00:39:36,200
for words and, er,
her extraordinary ability
480
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,950
to promote herself.
481
00:39:37,950 --> 00:39:39,780
She liked helping the artists
482
00:39:39,780 --> 00:39:43,530
and she liked
being like Gertrude Stein
483
00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:46,910
and having a good eye
and picking the winners.
484
00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:49,860
She also had the guts
to buy Cubist paintings
485
00:39:49,860 --> 00:39:54,950
which, in those days,
were not valued nearly as highly
486
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:56,700
as they are today.
487
00:39:56,700 --> 00:40:00,160
I seem to remember Picasso
being rather vague about Peggy.
488
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,820
I mean, he heard about her.
489
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,030
She goes to Picasso and
tries to buy something there
490
00:40:06,030 --> 00:40:09,030
and he says, "Madam, the lingerie
is on the fifth floor."
491
00:40:12,860 --> 00:40:16,740
Clearly she was courageous
in her choices,
492
00:40:16,740 --> 00:40:19,360
she stuck to her convictions,
493
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,070
she listened to the right people,
494
00:40:22,070 --> 00:40:26,030
but she was the subject of
ridicule and disparagement
495
00:40:26,030 --> 00:40:27,360
a lot of the time,
496
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,910
and yet that didn't seem
to bother her so much.
497
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:32,200
She just...ploughed forward.
498
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:39,360
On the day that
Hitler invaded Norway,
499
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,070
I walked into Leger's studio
and bought a wonderful painting.
500
00:40:44,910 --> 00:40:46,780
And then, this was in 1940,
501
00:40:46,780 --> 00:40:48,910
and how did you get
all that art out of Paris?
502
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,280
Well, that was very, very difficult.
503
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,910
First of all, I wanted
all these things saved,
504
00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:56,660
and went to talk
to the Louvre people,
505
00:40:56,660 --> 00:40:58,240
because Leger had suggested
506
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:01,450
the Louvre would save
these works of art with theirs.
507
00:41:01,450 --> 00:41:03,280
Then, after I had them all prepared,
508
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,450
the Louvre changed their mind,
said they weren't worth saving.
509
00:41:06,450 --> 00:41:09,410
And the Louvre was sure
that Mondrian wasn't worth saving
510
00:41:09,410 --> 00:41:11,820
and Picasso wasn't worth saving?
511
00:41:11,820 --> 00:41:13,610
Exactly! How extraordinary.
512
00:41:13,610 --> 00:41:15,070
I bet they're sorry now.
513
00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:23,610
Oh, I was, much more.
514
00:41:23,610 --> 00:41:26,820
And I wouldn't leave until
I got the pictures there,
515
00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:28,660
but finally, a very lucky man
516
00:41:28,660 --> 00:41:31,320
who had done all
the shipping and packing
517
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,820
so I had the gallery, appeared
and arranged the whole thing for me
518
00:41:34,820 --> 00:41:38,280
and sent the whole thing
as household objects.
519
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,530
We had sand sheets and blankets
520
00:41:40,530 --> 00:41:42,200
and casseroles and...
521
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,360
Right there in the middle of the war
with the submarines and everything?
522
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,990
Yes, incredible, isn't it?
523
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:07,610
I went to Marseille, and
the Varian Fry Committee asked me
524
00:42:07,610 --> 00:42:11,860
if I would save certain
surrealist painters from Europe.
525
00:42:13,530 --> 00:42:17,530
And among these people was
Max Ernst and Andre Breton,
526
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:19,660
and all Andre Breton's family.
527
00:43:02,610 --> 00:43:04,820
One of the surrealist painters
528
00:43:04,820 --> 00:43:07,910
with whom you obviously were
closely involved was Max Ernst,
529
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:10,160
and he makes a sort of
link, doesn't he,
530
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,030
between your life in Europe
and your life in America again?
531
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:16,360
I brought Max Ernst to America.
532
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,160
Then, after Pearl Harbor,
I married him.
533
00:43:22,110 --> 00:43:24,240
And Max Ernst was
extremely good-looking
534
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,860
and very attractive to women.
535
00:43:26,860 --> 00:43:31,700
She was much envied for
having Max Ernst as a husband.
536
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:33,950
It was a good deed in that,
537
00:43:33,950 --> 00:43:36,740
I mean, she got Max out of Europe
and to America,
538
00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:39,110
and had he been caught by
the Germans
539
00:43:39,110 --> 00:43:41,910
he would have been put
in a concentration camp
540
00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:44,070
for being a modernist artist.
541
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:47,320
I don't think
he was at all faithful.
542
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,610
I mean, it was a clever career move,
543
00:43:49,610 --> 00:43:52,410
and I think that he didn't
give a damn for her.
544
00:43:52,410 --> 00:43:55,200
When did you know
you were in love with him?
545
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,570
When you first saw him, or...?
Right away, after a few days.
546
00:43:58,570 --> 00:44:02,320
Was he still beautiful then?
Yes, wonderful. Terribly attractive.
547
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,240
Beautiful, beautiful.
Had a beautiful body also.
548
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:10,110
Did Ernst love being
the centre of attention?
549
00:44:10,110 --> 00:44:12,240
Oh, he thought about nothing else.
550
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:21,660
You said that he could
be jealous of your clothes.
551
00:44:21,660 --> 00:44:23,280
He loved clothes.
552
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,990
He wanted to dress up always.
553
00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:27,660
When I bought a fur coat once,
554
00:44:27,660 --> 00:44:29,950
he was so jealous
I had to buy him one also.
555
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,110
When Peggy Guggenheim
arrives in 1941,
556
00:44:40,110 --> 00:44:43,530
the art world was a small
kind of gentlemen's club,
557
00:44:43,530 --> 00:44:46,030
and the story was that you could fit
558
00:44:46,030 --> 00:44:48,860
the entire art world
in any given room.
559
00:44:48,860 --> 00:44:51,700
Well, it's got
a lot of people coming here.
560
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:54,820
A lot of Europeans are
being displaced by the war.
561
00:44:54,820 --> 00:44:57,160
Miro was here. Yes, Miro was here.
562
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:58,990
Leger, and... Yes.
563
00:44:58,990 --> 00:45:00,490
Tanguy, Masson.
564
00:45:00,490 --> 00:45:03,910
Andre Breton, Max Ernst, Mondrian.
565
00:45:05,740 --> 00:45:09,030
Peggy Guggenheim was
one of the links between
566
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:11,910
European and American modernism.
567
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:16,360
Between surrealism and
abstract expressionism.
568
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,660
I think Peggy was a pollinator.
569
00:45:18,660 --> 00:45:21,200
She wanted to be widely regarded
570
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,780
as a major figure in the art world.
571
00:45:26,070 --> 00:45:28,610
What was life like
during those days,
572
00:45:28,610 --> 00:45:31,360
here, with all the expatriate
artists in New York?
573
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:32,660
Oh, it was wonderful.
574
00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:35,160
It was terribly stimulating
and terribly exciting,
575
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,820
because New York then became
the art centre of the world -
576
00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:39,530
Paris no longer existed in that way.
577
00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:44,030
Which comes first -
Peggy Guggenheim the freethinker
578
00:45:44,030 --> 00:45:47,700
who rebels and kind of moves away
from home and changes her life,
579
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:52,530
or Peggy Guggenheim the person
who enters into these spheres,
580
00:45:52,530 --> 00:45:56,360
these artistic orbits,
where everyone is like that,
581
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,410
and certainly informing her of
even wilder ways to break the rules?
582
00:46:05,860 --> 00:46:08,280
When Peggy opened
Art Of This Century
583
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,780
on 57th Street, in October '42,
584
00:46:10,780 --> 00:46:12,950
she felt very committed
to the idea
585
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:16,410
of assembling a collection
and opening it to the public.
586
00:46:16,410 --> 00:46:19,110
And she saw that, by collecting
the art of her time,
587
00:46:19,110 --> 00:46:21,610
that that would set up
588
00:46:21,610 --> 00:46:24,030
a path, if you will,
toward the future.
589
00:46:26,570 --> 00:46:28,700
Peggy Guggenheim's gallery
590
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:32,700
was one of the first international
galleries in New York City
591
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:35,700
mixing American and European art.
592
00:46:40,990 --> 00:46:44,450
In terms of American painting,
what was the role of your gallery?
593
00:46:44,450 --> 00:46:45,820
What would you say it was?
594
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:57,240
What about Putzel's role
in your gallery?
595
00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:59,780
It seems to me he was very important
in providing people...
596
00:46:59,780 --> 00:47:01,450
Terribly important.
597
00:47:18,610 --> 00:47:21,950
It was in Peggy Guggenheim's gallery
598
00:47:21,950 --> 00:47:24,490
called Art Of This Century.
599
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:27,280
Do you remember Motherwell?
600
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,820
Very well. What impressed you
about Motherwell?
601
00:47:29,820 --> 00:47:31,200
He was very intellectual.
602
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,610
He used to give lectures
in my gallery about the paintings.
603
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:41,530
The function of abstraction
is to get rid of a lot of reality.
604
00:47:41,530 --> 00:47:45,740
You start with as much richness
as you want, and subtract.
605
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,780
Art Of This Century was
an astonishing innovation.
606
00:48:30,780 --> 00:48:35,860
Not only this radical group of
artists who were redefining art,
607
00:48:35,860 --> 00:48:38,410
but also the space was something
608
00:48:38,410 --> 00:48:41,200
that no-one had
ever imagined before.
609
00:48:50,660 --> 00:48:54,950
What made you think of having
a gallery that was all decorated?
610
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:56,740
Oh, that was because Putzel said
611
00:48:56,740 --> 00:48:59,700
why don't you get Kiesler
to give you a few little ideas?
612
00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:02,780
And those were the few little ideas,
created this marvellous gallery.
613
00:49:04,450 --> 00:49:07,660
Frederick Kiesler had been
a long-time friend of Duchamp's.
614
00:49:07,660 --> 00:49:09,860
He was friends with Mondrian,
615
00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:13,570
and he was spiritually
the right visionary for Peggy.
616
00:49:30,780 --> 00:49:36,410
Kiesler and Peggy felt very strongly
that her art should be accessible.
617
00:49:36,410 --> 00:49:41,610
All the abstract pictures were
hung in halls on universal joints
618
00:49:41,610 --> 00:49:45,410
so that you could actually take
hold of the picture and turn it,
619
00:49:45,410 --> 00:49:47,740
swivel it into the light and so on,
620
00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:52,410
and really use it with
the same familiarity
621
00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:54,360
that one does a library.
622
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:05,070
That's how people
get turned on to art,
623
00:50:05,070 --> 00:50:07,410
is that they have
an intimate relationship,
624
00:50:07,410 --> 00:50:09,820
rather than a distant one.
625
00:50:09,820 --> 00:50:12,360
And Peggy Guggenheim
really understood that.
626
00:50:30,990 --> 00:50:33,660
Some of the critics
referred to the installation
627
00:50:33,660 --> 00:50:36,780
as either a Coney Island
or an amusement-park ghost train.
628
00:50:36,780 --> 00:50:39,160
And it was a wacky environment.
629
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,160
There was a tape recording
of an express train
630
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,160
which would go off
every few minutes.
631
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:48,110
Light switch would flash on and off.
632
00:50:49,780 --> 00:50:52,780
The experience was supposed
to be unsettling, dreamlike.
633
00:51:03,530 --> 00:51:08,610
Most people still feel safest
in their contemplative gaze
634
00:51:08,610 --> 00:51:11,910
when they're in the most
sterile white cube possible.
635
00:51:11,910 --> 00:51:16,700
The presentation of the art
was really radical,
636
00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:18,860
and is still radical today.
637
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:21,530
Well, it doesn't surprise me
638
00:51:21,530 --> 00:51:24,070
that Peggy Guggenheim
was regarded as a black sheep,
639
00:51:24,070 --> 00:51:26,110
because she really did it
on her own.
640
00:51:26,110 --> 00:51:28,990
She really was
a self-made collector,
641
00:51:28,990 --> 00:51:32,070
and kind of a self-made person,
in the broader sense.
642
00:51:32,070 --> 00:51:35,950
I mean, she really...
She was her greatest creation.
643
00:51:38,030 --> 00:51:39,450
I had a wonderful figure.
644
00:51:39,450 --> 00:51:43,820
I was very thin, chestnut hair,
green-blue eyes.
645
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,320
My nose probably was always too big!
SHE LAUGHS
646
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,610
She was one of the first people
to have plastic surgery,
647
00:51:51,610 --> 00:51:53,530
because she hated her nose.
648
00:51:53,530 --> 00:51:55,740
And her nose was a disaster.
649
00:51:57,110 --> 00:52:00,780
I love the story about
your nose job. Is it quite true?
650
00:52:00,780 --> 00:52:03,240
Absolutely true, yes.
Why would the doctors not...?
651
00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:04,860
They couldn't do the one I wanted.
652
00:52:04,860 --> 00:52:07,490
So you just had them stop
in the middle? It was so painful.
653
00:52:07,490 --> 00:52:09,410
It was terrible,
so I made them stop.
654
00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:13,780
When her nose job was botched,
655
00:52:13,780 --> 00:52:15,990
she decided not
to ever have it fixed,
656
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:19,860
and just to guts it out
with this kind of funny face.
657
00:52:19,860 --> 00:52:25,860
And I think that was kind of
a root of a lot of her complexes.
658
00:52:27,450 --> 00:52:31,070
When you met Peggy, she wasn't
at all forward and confident.
659
00:52:31,070 --> 00:52:34,410
She was charming,
she was socially adept,
660
00:52:34,410 --> 00:52:37,110
but you could see that she was...
661
00:52:37,110 --> 00:52:39,280
She was quite timid.
662
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:40,490
She was very insecure.
663
00:52:40,490 --> 00:52:44,070
And the way she spoke, with very
little bit of movement of the mouth,
664
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:46,280
and every once in a while,
she would just...
665
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,360
do something with her tongue.
666
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,700
Um... It would come out.
667
00:52:55,490 --> 00:52:57,780
'I'm sure she was
totally unaware of it.
668
00:52:57,780 --> 00:53:02,280
'The only time that I saw
that she really relaxed was
669
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,570
'she picked up this little
sculpture by Arp.'
670
00:53:05,570 --> 00:53:08,160
This is the first sculpture
I ever bought.
671
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,320
'She became a little more animated.
672
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,780
'She was happy when she was
actually connected to the art.'
673
00:53:36,530 --> 00:53:38,700
Peggy made things happen.
674
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:42,160
She did things, and other things
happened as a consequence of that.
675
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,110
And it was absolutely true
in Pollock's career.
676
00:53:46,490 --> 00:53:50,110
Peggy must have met Jackson Pollock
in the winter of 1942-1943,
677
00:53:50,110 --> 00:53:51,490
become aware of him.
678
00:53:51,490 --> 00:53:52,780
But for somebody used to
679
00:53:52,780 --> 00:53:55,200
the sophistications of
the European avant garde,
680
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,860
it was very hard
to take on board,
681
00:53:57,860 --> 00:54:00,280
and it was eventually Mondrian,
682
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,700
during the jury session for
her so-called Spring Salon in 1943,
683
00:54:04,700 --> 00:54:06,410
who pushed Peggy over the top.
684
00:54:07,740 --> 00:54:09,910
Mondrian stood rooted to the spot
685
00:54:09,910 --> 00:54:12,820
in front of two paintings,
686
00:54:12,820 --> 00:54:15,490
and Peggy went over to him
and merely said,
687
00:54:15,490 --> 00:54:17,280
"Dreadful, aren't they?
688
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,110
"They're dreadful.
Man has no discipline."
689
00:54:20,110 --> 00:54:23,450
And he said, "No, I'd like
to look at this some more."
690
00:54:23,450 --> 00:54:24,860
She said, "Why?"
691
00:54:24,860 --> 00:54:27,700
And Mondrian said,
"I have the feeling
692
00:54:27,700 --> 00:54:30,490
"that I'm looking at
some of the most exciting work
693
00:54:30,490 --> 00:54:32,450
"that I've seen so far in America."
694
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:37,700
Soon after exhibiting Pollock
in her Spring Salon,
695
00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:40,610
she offers him his first
one-man exhibition,
696
00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:43,610
and commissions from him what was
to be his largest ever painting,
697
00:54:43,610 --> 00:54:46,530
a mural for her new address
on 61st Street.
698
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:52,700
I first met Jackson Pollock
when he was working as a carpenter
699
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,450
in my uncle's museum,
so I rescued him from that,
700
00:54:56,450 --> 00:54:59,450
and wanted a mural
for my entrance hall,
701
00:54:59,450 --> 00:55:03,280
a very long wall,
about 23 feet wide.
702
00:55:06,490 --> 00:55:09,200
The picture seems to
repeat itself all over.
703
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:13,320
It's become a staple of abstract
painting now, but at the time
704
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,950
it was called,
I say, exalted wallpaper,
705
00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:19,820
and then the mural, well,
it just goes on and on.
706
00:55:19,820 --> 00:55:21,610
That's what made it so good.
707
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:28,070
Pollock is still taken for
this example of far-out-ism,
708
00:55:28,070 --> 00:55:29,990
an artist in the line of Duchamp,
709
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:31,450
someone who knocked...
710
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:36,610
Knocked you flat
with his arbitrariness.
711
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,360
Pollock was a very
self-destructive character,
712
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,700
and Peggy Guggenheim made
an investment of genius.
713
00:56:53,700 --> 00:56:56,450
Once she was convinced
of Pollock's importance,
714
00:56:56,450 --> 00:56:58,910
she gave him an income,
she lent him the money
715
00:56:58,910 --> 00:57:02,200
to buy a house
out in Springs, Long Island.
716
00:57:03,860 --> 00:57:06,030
Having the peace and the quiet
717
00:57:06,030 --> 00:57:08,950
and the distance
from the social scene
718
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:10,910
opened up a space for him,
719
00:57:10,910 --> 00:57:14,530
and he was truly working
as an artist in full command.
720
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,700
He had a lot more control
than people...
721
00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:20,410
Than the myth would have.
722
00:57:20,410 --> 00:57:22,530
He could fling a scad of paint
723
00:57:22,530 --> 00:57:25,070
with the accuracy of
a cowboy with a lasso.
724
00:57:29,070 --> 00:57:33,860
I gave him a small salary,
$300 a month.
725
00:57:33,860 --> 00:57:36,030
God knows how he lived on it
and painted on it,
726
00:57:36,030 --> 00:57:38,700
and bought canvases,
but I suppose in those days
727
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:41,570
it was a great deal more
than it would be today.
728
00:57:41,570 --> 00:57:44,950
And he immediately bloomed forth
729
00:57:44,950 --> 00:57:46,950
and became what I consider
730
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:49,780
one of the great artists
of the 20th century.
731
00:57:51,700 --> 00:57:54,280
Does she make
Jackson Pollock famous? No.
732
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,160
Life magazine makes him famous.
733
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,450
But she's there beforehand
in a really significant way,
734
00:57:59,450 --> 00:58:03,820
and she is allowing
this sense of a more heroic,
735
00:58:03,820 --> 00:58:06,320
larger-than-life version of art
736
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,360
which was not the old-school
way of doing it.
737
00:58:10,700 --> 00:58:13,740
I'm connected to Peggy Guggenheim
738
00:58:13,740 --> 00:58:17,360
in relation to Art Of This Century,
739
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,780
because my mother showed with her,
740
00:58:20,780 --> 00:58:23,240
my father showed with her.
741
00:58:24,610 --> 00:58:29,910
The first time my father showed
was in 1945 at the Autumn Salon,
742
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:36,280
and my mother had her first
one-man show with Peggy in 1946.
743
00:58:39,740 --> 00:58:41,320
Yeah, when I was three.
744
00:58:44,860 --> 00:58:47,110
Did you give any shows to women?
745
00:58:47,110 --> 00:58:49,820
Just one-man shows?
Yeah, a lot of women.
746
00:58:49,820 --> 00:58:54,240
Another really important exhibition
that Peggy did was called 31 Women.
747
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,570
The first time that there had
ever been an exhibition
748
00:58:57,570 --> 00:59:01,530
devoted only to women artists,
both American and European.
749
00:59:01,530 --> 00:59:05,990
And I think it was the first show
of exclusively women artists ever,
750
00:59:05,990 --> 00:59:08,450
and it was, you know,
Louise Nevelson,
751
00:59:08,450 --> 00:59:11,360
and Leonora Carrington
and Meret Oppenheim, and so on.
752
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,320
It was a remarkable show.
753
00:59:18,450 --> 00:59:20,780
Peggy was a sister in a lot of ways.
754
00:59:20,780 --> 00:59:23,740
She had a lot of
really close female friends
755
00:59:23,740 --> 00:59:27,490
and, despite all of her activity
with various men,
756
00:59:27,490 --> 00:59:31,450
at the end of the day she really
believed very strongly in women.
757
00:59:34,950 --> 00:59:37,110
She marries Max Ernst,
758
00:59:37,110 --> 00:59:39,070
but she's hardly his only wife.
759
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:44,160
And, in fact, he meets
his next wife, Dorothea Tanning,
760
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,110
curating a show for Peg's place.
761
01:00:00,990 --> 01:00:03,160
Artists' narcissism, you know,
762
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,320
"art above all",
"art more than life",
763
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:08,910
you know, lead to problems.
764
01:00:42,450 --> 01:00:44,950
Gala Dali once criticised you
765
01:00:44,950 --> 01:00:47,740
for sacrificing your life to art.
766
01:00:48,820 --> 01:00:51,360
I never gave up collecting
and running my gallery,
767
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:52,820
and looking after artists.
768
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:57,660
When I was married to Max Ernst,
even, I continued.
769
01:00:57,660 --> 01:00:59,820
Probably didn't help
the marriage very much,
770
01:00:59,820 --> 01:01:01,320
but I continued nevertheless.
771
01:01:03,820 --> 01:01:06,200
Peggy Guggenheim was a lonely lady.
772
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:13,070
I sensed that, and I invited her
to come for a simple meal.
773
01:01:13,070 --> 01:01:15,160
And she was so grateful,
774
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,070
because nobody ever thought
775
01:01:17,070 --> 01:01:20,360
that they should invite
the great Peggy Guggenheim
776
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:24,280
just for a common, ordinary
pasta dinner, or something.
777
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,490
And so she and I
became quite friendly.
778
01:01:28,490 --> 01:01:31,990
I think that, in many ways,
779
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:35,360
she didn't understand how much
others tried to exploit her.
780
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,860
And they did. They really did.
781
01:01:39,860 --> 01:01:42,570
And took advantage of her like mad.
782
01:01:42,570 --> 01:01:46,450
Including artists. That's why
I called her "charmingly naive".
783
01:01:48,740 --> 01:01:52,240
Peggy and I were very good friends.
784
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,320
She was a very open, genuine person,
785
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,490
she was completely
without any guile.
786
01:01:57,490 --> 01:01:59,320
She had no hidden agenda.
787
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:04,160
You could always assume that what
she said was what she really meant,
788
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:08,610
and she wrote exactly
the way she spoke.
789
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,700
Everybody went mad
when I wrote that book,
790
01:02:16,700 --> 01:02:18,610
I had 25 dreadful criticisms.
791
01:02:18,610 --> 01:02:19,780
They were terrible.
792
01:02:19,780 --> 01:02:21,200
They were very funny, though.
793
01:02:32,030 --> 01:02:34,110
I don't see why
they should have been so upset,
794
01:02:34,110 --> 01:02:36,990
because I didn't say anything awful
about the Guggenheims.
795
01:02:36,990 --> 01:02:39,910
My book is all about...
All about fucking!
796
01:02:42,860 --> 01:02:47,030
On many levels, it's a very
brilliant, insightful book.
797
01:02:47,030 --> 01:02:48,530
Getting the record clear
798
01:02:48,530 --> 01:02:52,030
and her feelings clear
was very bold, very daring...
799
01:02:52,030 --> 01:02:55,820
I think her motivation in writing
about exactly what she'd done,
800
01:02:55,820 --> 01:02:57,450
and who she'd slept with,
801
01:02:57,450 --> 01:03:00,280
was cos she didn't really
care who knew,
802
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,610
because it was just part of
her innate being, that -
803
01:03:03,610 --> 01:03:06,070
she wasn't ever
covering anything up.
804
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,410
I came and spent the night
with Paul Bowles once.
805
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:14,700
I... I don't put in my book
that I had an affair with him,
806
01:03:14,700 --> 01:03:16,530
but I think it's pretty obvious.
807
01:03:16,530 --> 01:03:19,910
Fairly. And we lay on a fur
on the ground, and...
808
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:23,110
And he put perfume
on my wrists, and...
809
01:03:23,110 --> 01:03:27,070
It all sounds very sort of sexy,
doesn't it? Very exotic. Yes.
810
01:03:27,070 --> 01:03:28,780
Was he very exotic? Yes, very.
811
01:03:30,950 --> 01:03:33,410
Many of the men
with whom she hung out
812
01:03:33,410 --> 01:03:36,530
were extremely promiscuous.
813
01:03:36,530 --> 01:03:38,280
But she was talked
about as such a slut
814
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,280
for doing the same thing that
all the men around her were doing.
815
01:03:42,450 --> 01:03:46,160
That Mary McCarthy story
is all about her promiscuity.
816
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,740
Mary saw her as a wonderful target,
817
01:03:49,740 --> 01:03:54,320
and she wrote this merciless
short story about Peggy.
818
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:58,820
It's called The Cicerone.
Polly Grabbe, I think she's called.
819
01:03:58,820 --> 01:04:04,320
And she talks about her life as
a series of skids on banana peels,
820
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:08,360
as represented by
the various lovers she'd had.
821
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:12,780
It's a bit two-dimensional and...
a little too sharp.
822
01:04:12,780 --> 01:04:15,740
What about Mary McCarthy?
How friendly were you with her?
823
01:04:15,740 --> 01:04:18,280
She wrote something...
Oh, very, very friendly, yes.
824
01:04:25,490 --> 01:04:28,320
Mary McCarthy was hardly
a Puritan herself,
825
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:31,360
so why would that be
the thing she focused on?
826
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:33,200
Well, everyone focused on that.
827
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:35,240
And I don't think Peggy Guggenheim
828
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,530
did anything
to discourage that focus.
829
01:04:37,530 --> 01:04:39,860
I mean, she was...quite proud of it.
830
01:04:55,030 --> 01:04:56,910
Did you ever have an affair
with Mondrian?
831
01:04:56,910 --> 01:04:58,700
Or was he too old? No, never.
832
01:04:58,700 --> 01:05:00,160
I don't think he was too old,
833
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:01,990
because I went to
his studio one night
834
01:05:01,990 --> 01:05:04,530
and he showed me his paintings
and then he kissed me,
835
01:05:04,530 --> 01:05:06,780
and when he kissed me
he had an erection,
836
01:05:06,780 --> 01:05:09,070
which surprised me very much.
INTERVIEWER LAUGHS
837
01:05:09,070 --> 01:05:11,280
For someone that age. Wonderful.
838
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,490
How old was he? About 70, yes.
839
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:46,990
I found her attractive.
840
01:05:48,110 --> 01:05:51,410
There was this extraordinary
sense of self,
841
01:05:51,410 --> 01:05:53,070
there's something...
842
01:05:53,070 --> 01:05:57,990
Something really beautiful
about an older woman..
843
01:05:57,990 --> 01:06:00,910
who knows who she is.
844
01:06:00,910 --> 01:06:03,660
Who has a great accomplishment.
845
01:06:03,660 --> 01:06:06,660
That, already, is sexy.
846
01:06:06,660 --> 01:06:09,110
I think Peggy had a very strange
sort of form of sexiness.
847
01:06:09,110 --> 01:06:10,320
She wasn't...
848
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:11,950
She didn't exude sexuality,
849
01:06:11,950 --> 01:06:14,160
but she had a kind of sexual aura
850
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,200
that people did respond to.
851
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,280
And she was a kind of...
852
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,450
A mixture of old-fashioned
and very, very modern.
853
01:06:22,530 --> 01:06:25,450
She was kind of testy
if people assumed
854
01:06:25,450 --> 01:06:28,200
that she would tell you
dirty stories
855
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:30,530
or talk about sex
or things like that.
856
01:06:30,530 --> 01:06:33,360
I think she was a little like
a character in Proust
857
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,160
called Madame de Villeparisis
858
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:39,530
who, when she's young, recklessly
throws away her reputation
859
01:06:39,530 --> 01:06:42,910
and thinks it's fun to do that.
860
01:06:42,910 --> 01:06:44,570
And then when she's older,
861
01:06:44,570 --> 01:06:48,910
she spends all of her time trying
to recover her lost position,
862
01:06:48,910 --> 01:06:51,570
and I think Peggy
was a little like that.
863
01:06:51,570 --> 01:06:54,820
Assembling her great collection
and starting a museum -
864
01:06:54,820 --> 01:06:57,910
all of that was something
that would preserve her name,
865
01:06:57,910 --> 01:07:00,740
and that's what she wanted to do.
866
01:07:00,740 --> 01:07:02,280
She was a Guggenheim, you know,
867
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,240
and she had the ego of a Guggenheim.
868
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:08,700
And she had a certain
authority about her
869
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:11,570
and people were very
impressed by her name -
870
01:07:11,570 --> 01:07:15,740
she used the Guggenheim name
to good ends
871
01:07:15,740 --> 01:07:19,910
and she'd carved out
a niche for herself
872
01:07:19,910 --> 01:07:21,740
and she filled it,
873
01:07:21,740 --> 01:07:24,320
and she seemed to be
doing it very well.
874
01:07:53,490 --> 01:07:55,360
When Peggy Guggenheim left New York,
875
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:57,910
in some ways her reputation
876
01:07:57,910 --> 01:08:00,240
obscured her accomplishment.
877
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:01,490
That her personality,
878
01:08:01,490 --> 01:08:03,990
what Clement Greenberg
talks about as her gaiety -
879
01:08:03,990 --> 01:08:05,860
those were actually negatives.
880
01:08:05,860 --> 01:08:08,950
But I think even Greenberg
knew enough
881
01:08:08,950 --> 01:08:12,410
to put that aside and say
that she identified key artists
882
01:08:12,410 --> 01:08:13,820
in the New York School.
883
01:08:13,820 --> 01:08:15,360
She showed them first,
884
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:16,820
she helped build their career,
885
01:08:16,820 --> 01:08:19,700
she helped to make it
possible for them to do their work,
886
01:08:19,700 --> 01:08:21,530
and that was a huge accomplishment.
887
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:58,160
There is no normal life in Venice.
888
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,860
Here everything
and everyone floats.
889
01:09:03,530 --> 01:09:07,530
It is this floatingness which is
the essential quality of Venice.
890
01:09:07,530 --> 01:09:09,700
The reflections are like paintings -
891
01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:12,910
more beautiful than any painted
by the greatest masters.
892
01:09:16,610 --> 01:09:19,160
Venice was really
a place of passage,
893
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:22,860
and so for someone like her
to choose a place like Venice
894
01:09:22,860 --> 01:09:24,700
doesn't come at all as a surprise.
895
01:09:24,700 --> 01:09:27,700
The place really calls for
896
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:30,320
that mix of people coming and going.
897
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:33,450
However, what made her,
I think, so different
898
01:09:33,450 --> 01:09:34,820
is that she stayed.
899
01:09:39,700 --> 01:09:43,570
I could understand coming back
to Paris or to London, but why...?
900
01:09:43,570 --> 01:09:47,570
I couldn't go to London because
I was afraid that my memoirs
901
01:09:47,570 --> 01:09:49,530
would cause me too much trouble.
902
01:09:50,910 --> 01:09:53,660
So I came to Venice,
which I'd always adored,
903
01:09:53,660 --> 01:09:55,990
which had been my dream city.
904
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:14,530
At last I could achieve my dream.
905
01:10:15,950 --> 01:10:19,030
She thought it was a funny
little palace that she lived in
906
01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:21,200
because it didn't have
a second floor.
907
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:25,990
And she got it at a bargain,
I think, right after the war.
908
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:27,360
It didn't cost her much.
909
01:10:38,700 --> 01:10:42,360
I think Peggy's
great achievements in Venice
910
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:47,030
all stemmed from lending
her collection to the Biennale
911
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:50,660
when it reopened after
World War II in 1948.
912
01:10:50,660 --> 01:10:55,030
Douglas and I went to Venice
at that time to pay a call on Peggy.
913
01:10:55,030 --> 01:10:57,990
Now, this was
a very tricky call to pay,
914
01:10:57,990 --> 01:11:02,820
because Douglas had written
about Peggy's loan of her collection
915
01:11:02,820 --> 01:11:04,860
and Douglas had ripped it apart
916
01:11:04,860 --> 01:11:09,410
and said this was typical of
the bad taste of rich American women
917
01:11:09,410 --> 01:11:11,570
who didn't know
what they were buying.
918
01:11:11,570 --> 01:11:13,200
But Peggy was very forgiving,
919
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:15,110
so we were very warmly received.
920
01:11:16,450 --> 01:11:20,610
I think she helped bring
international modern art to Venice,
921
01:11:20,610 --> 01:11:23,860
and this had an enormous effect
922
01:11:23,860 --> 01:11:26,610
on the future of the Biennale.
923
01:11:32,530 --> 01:11:37,320
There were always a tumble of dogs
around her feet like thistledown,
924
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:39,990
five or six of them whom she adored.
925
01:12:04,610 --> 01:12:07,070
You've had everybody here
in your house.
926
01:12:07,070 --> 01:12:09,200
I mean, it's unbelievable.
927
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,490
I like it when they draw something.
928
01:12:11,490 --> 01:12:13,160
Yes, so do I, much better.
929
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:14,610
Steinberg.
930
01:12:14,610 --> 01:12:15,860
I love all the doggies.
931
01:12:15,860 --> 01:12:16,990
Aren't they wonderful?
932
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,610
It was so enjoyable
staying with Peggy,
933
01:12:33,610 --> 01:12:35,990
because all kinds of things went on.
934
01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:40,070
There were incidents,
there were rows, there was fun.
935
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:43,360
She enjoyed having
a lot of gay guys around her
936
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:46,990
because they were always
looking for young guys,
937
01:12:46,990 --> 01:12:49,950
and she also was one of the gang
in that respect.
938
01:12:49,950 --> 01:12:53,740
But the food was
the worst in Venice.
939
01:12:53,740 --> 01:12:56,490
I mean, you know, lunch at Peggy's,
940
01:12:56,490 --> 01:13:00,280
it was bad pasta, the cheapest wine.
941
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:02,860
I mean, really quite awful.
942
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:07,780
So I don't think that food or drink
really mattered to her.
943
01:13:07,780 --> 01:13:12,280
She was a gourmand of life,
not of food.
944
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:14,660
And the food was pretty terrible.
945
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:18,990
Peggy was legendarily cheap.
946
01:13:18,990 --> 01:13:23,570
Sindbad once said she could make
a can of sardines go very, very far,
947
01:13:23,570 --> 01:13:26,410
to which Peggy said, "Yes,
especially if you don't open it."
948
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:30,110
I think people have been hard
on her in a way
949
01:13:30,110 --> 01:13:31,860
by saying that she was chintzy.
950
01:13:31,860 --> 01:13:34,160
She had to be chintzy
because she had...
951
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,990
She was infinitely ambitious
when it came to buying paintings
952
01:13:37,990 --> 01:13:40,990
and living well
and having a palazzo and all that,
953
01:13:40,990 --> 01:13:42,240
but on the other hand
954
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:44,450
what was so touching about Peggy,
955
01:13:44,450 --> 01:13:46,780
at heart she was a little girl,
956
01:13:46,780 --> 01:13:50,450
and she had a little girl's
enthusiasm about her possessions
957
01:13:50,450 --> 01:13:52,030
and wanting to show them.
958
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,570
I don't think it goes with my hair.
959
01:13:59,110 --> 01:14:02,200
This is my bedroom,
with the Calder bed.
960
01:14:03,660 --> 01:14:05,530
Peggy wants to replace this
961
01:14:05,530 --> 01:14:07,360
old brass bed she has
962
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:09,360
with something genius,
963
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:12,280
and she has this remarkable idea
964
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:15,490
to ask my grandfather to make
a headboard in hammered silver,
965
01:14:15,490 --> 01:14:17,200
like his beautiful jewellery.
966
01:14:18,740 --> 01:14:20,280
And he doesn't do it.
967
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,860
And so she's after him
all the time.
968
01:14:22,860 --> 01:14:24,490
One day I met him at a party
969
01:14:24,490 --> 01:14:28,280
and I said, "Sandy why
haven't you made my bed?"
970
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,490
Whereupon his wife
looked extremely surprised,
971
01:14:31,490 --> 01:14:33,610
picked up her ears, and said,
"What does that mean?"
972
01:14:35,990 --> 01:14:38,280
'So, finally, I got my bed.'
973
01:14:47,740 --> 01:14:51,030
There were constant triads
for the role of lover.
974
01:14:51,030 --> 01:14:53,280
I mean, there were local boys.
975
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:56,530
I remember when Nelly van Doesburg,
976
01:14:56,530 --> 01:15:00,860
the widow of van Doesburg the Dutch
modernist painter, came to stay,
977
01:15:00,860 --> 01:15:04,070
and Peggy was adding on
a few rooms to the palazzo.
978
01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:07,030
So there were a lot of rather
good-looking
979
01:15:07,030 --> 01:15:10,820
young Italian stonemasons
and plasterers around,
980
01:15:10,820 --> 01:15:15,450
and Nelly and Peggy both lusted
after the same young plasterer.
981
01:15:15,450 --> 01:15:20,110
And there were terrible
shrieks and rows and so on.
982
01:15:20,110 --> 01:15:25,160
I remember she would like to laugh
about her Marino Marini statue
983
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:28,160
in front of her palace,
with the detachable penis
984
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,780
which she would take off when
the cardinal would visit her.
985
01:15:34,660 --> 01:15:37,410
Marino Marini explained to me
986
01:15:37,410 --> 01:15:40,990
that it was not at all
a sexual symbol
987
01:15:40,990 --> 01:15:44,280
but simply the ecstasy
of a young man
988
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:46,160
in the joy of living.
989
01:15:50,410 --> 01:15:52,780
There's so few people
single-handedly start out
990
01:15:52,780 --> 01:15:54,200
to make a museum.
991
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:58,160
Yes. After trying all over the world
I finally accomplished it here.
992
01:16:01,530 --> 01:16:05,320
Since 1951, we opened the museum,
993
01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:07,950
it's supposed to be
the greatest attraction in Venice.
994
01:16:07,950 --> 01:16:11,200
Even before St Mark's,
some people come here.
995
01:16:12,610 --> 01:16:14,780
One thing I remember clearly,
996
01:16:14,780 --> 01:16:18,990
when I was about 18
I hitchhiked all over Europe.
997
01:16:18,990 --> 01:16:24,030
When I got to Venice, I went
to Peggy Guggenheim's palazzo
998
01:16:24,030 --> 01:16:26,240
where she had her museum.
999
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:29,490
I knew my mother
had a painting there,
1000
01:16:29,490 --> 01:16:32,070
so I walked in and
I looked to the right -
1001
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:34,740
the first thing I saw was hers.
1002
01:16:35,950 --> 01:16:38,780
I introduced myself to Peggy
and we talked.
1003
01:16:38,780 --> 01:16:41,160
She was a big part of their lives.
1004
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:42,860
She was a patron of theirs.
1005
01:16:44,820 --> 01:16:49,200
I didn't ask you when you started
to help writers and artists out.
1006
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:50,910
I started with Djuna Barnes,
1007
01:16:50,910 --> 01:16:53,820
and I've given an allowance
to her ever since.
1008
01:16:53,820 --> 01:16:55,360
Still to this day? Yes.
1009
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:57,610
I think, when you were beginning,
1010
01:16:57,610 --> 01:17:00,450
there weren't things like
there are now -
1011
01:17:00,450 --> 01:17:04,030
fellowships and scholarships...
No. No. Nothing.
1012
01:17:04,030 --> 01:17:09,410
Nothing. So what you were doing
was very unusual and very needed.
1013
01:17:30,660 --> 01:17:34,610
You seem to have given
help and support to artists.
1014
01:17:34,610 --> 01:17:38,990
Do you think that they have
repaid you sufficiently well?
1015
01:17:38,990 --> 01:17:40,490
I didn't expect to be repaid.
1016
01:17:40,490 --> 01:17:42,780
I think the fact that
they have created
1017
01:17:42,780 --> 01:17:45,860
and given so much to humanity
on the whole is enough.
1018
01:17:45,860 --> 01:17:48,950
I didn't expect any personal
thing in exchange.
1019
01:17:48,950 --> 01:17:51,200
It's enough to enjoy
their paintings.
1020
01:17:53,990 --> 01:17:55,660
I think my father, Sindbad,
1021
01:17:55,660 --> 01:17:58,780
had an intense relationship
with his mother, Peggy.
1022
01:17:58,780 --> 01:18:01,450
I think it was
a love-hate relationship.
1023
01:18:01,450 --> 01:18:05,910
Her life commitment happened to be
her collection and not her children.
1024
01:18:05,910 --> 01:18:08,360
I adored my father, Sindbad.
1025
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:10,070
He was quite a character.
1026
01:18:10,070 --> 01:18:12,780
He was a very avid sportsman.
1027
01:18:12,780 --> 01:18:16,780
I think it was his way of
breaking away from the art world.
1028
01:18:16,780 --> 01:18:20,820
He ended up working for
an insurance company.
1029
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:26,240
My father never spoke
about his sister Pegeen.
1030
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:28,740
I think it was a very sore subject,
1031
01:18:28,740 --> 01:18:31,030
a very painful subject for him.
1032
01:18:36,110 --> 01:18:42,070
I have kept this room
as a memorial to Pegeen,
1033
01:18:42,070 --> 01:18:44,820
with 13 or 14 of her paintings.
1034
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,660
People who knew her said
there was something just vacant,
1035
01:19:00,660 --> 01:19:04,240
something you knew was just
not right with Pegeen.
1036
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:07,820
And Pegeen was very troublesome
as a young woman,
1037
01:19:07,820 --> 01:19:12,200
and was already having affairs
at a very early age.
1038
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:15,360
Peggy was very intrusive
in Pegeen's relationships.
1039
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:19,410
I think she expected Pegeen
to be this beautiful love goddess
1040
01:19:19,410 --> 01:19:22,610
who had many affairs
and would go from man to man
1041
01:19:22,610 --> 01:19:26,070
in a way that
Peggy fantasised about.
1042
01:19:28,570 --> 01:19:29,950
Though she loved her,
1043
01:19:29,950 --> 01:19:32,780
she simply didn't know
how to be a mother to Pegeen.
1044
01:19:36,490 --> 01:19:39,860
She was always a very unhappy girl,
and terribly neurotic.
1045
01:19:59,860 --> 01:20:02,740
Pegeen was a tremendous
problem in those days.
1046
01:20:02,740 --> 01:20:04,320
I'll never forget Pegeen,
1047
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:08,410
we were all having dinner and
Pegeen rushed in covered in blood,
1048
01:20:08,410 --> 01:20:12,110
followed by a man in a white
dinner jacket covered in blood.
1049
01:20:12,110 --> 01:20:14,700
And she'd tried to commit suicide
and he'd saved her,
1050
01:20:14,700 --> 01:20:17,410
but they all seemed to be
perfectly happy about this
1051
01:20:17,410 --> 01:20:20,110
and they were kissing
and making it up.
1052
01:20:20,110 --> 01:20:23,610
It was a kind of regular occurrence,
the suicide attempts.
1053
01:20:23,610 --> 01:20:26,110
She told me she only
felt safe on a plane,
1054
01:20:26,110 --> 01:20:28,110
cos I suppose
she hoped it would crash.
1055
01:20:53,490 --> 01:20:55,450
I didn't often speak to her
about Pegeen,
1056
01:20:55,450 --> 01:20:58,200
because it was such
a painful subject for her.
1057
01:20:58,200 --> 01:20:59,990
But I did once ask her
1058
01:20:59,990 --> 01:21:03,910
if she felt that she'd ever managed
to get it right with Pegeen,
1059
01:21:03,910 --> 01:21:05,160
and she said never.
1060
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:07,570
She said she'd tried everything.
1061
01:21:07,570 --> 01:21:10,780
She tried to be soft,
and to be hard, and to be strict,
1062
01:21:10,780 --> 01:21:12,030
to be permissive,
1063
01:21:12,030 --> 01:21:13,910
and to be generous,
1064
01:21:13,910 --> 01:21:15,530
and to be controlling,
1065
01:21:15,530 --> 01:21:17,160
and she said it just...
1066
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:20,700
She could never find the right way.
1067
01:21:57,070 --> 01:22:00,280
With all the difficulties
in her life,
1068
01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:02,320
her personal problems,
1069
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:04,280
her family problems,
1070
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:08,360
was the art finally
compensation enough for all that?
1071
01:22:09,530 --> 01:22:12,740
What do these pictures
mean to you yourself?
1072
01:22:12,740 --> 01:22:16,450
Well, they've become more or less
the most important part of my life.
1073
01:22:16,450 --> 01:22:18,910
I can't imagine now
living without them.
1074
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:27,160
I had my revenge later on,
of course,
1075
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,240
when I had my show at
the Orangerie in Paris,
1076
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:31,910
which is part of the Louvre,
1077
01:22:31,910 --> 01:22:35,740
and I was very happy
that I was recognised.
1078
01:22:37,990 --> 01:22:41,740
She had the enormous pleasure
of going there
1079
01:22:41,740 --> 01:22:44,030
and mentioning in her speech
1080
01:22:44,030 --> 01:22:49,030
that her pictures had not been
worth saving before the war
1081
01:22:49,030 --> 01:22:51,160
but now they were worth showing.
1082
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:52,950
And I think that was lovely.
1083
01:23:00,950 --> 01:23:03,910
I was in Venice, it was
my first Biennale.
1084
01:23:03,910 --> 01:23:05,950
I think I was 23 years old
1085
01:23:05,950 --> 01:23:10,280
and I was invited to come
and see the collection.
1086
01:23:11,700 --> 01:23:13,950
As a young gallery owner,
1087
01:23:13,950 --> 01:23:17,360
Peggy Guggenheim
was a mythic person.
1088
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:21,320
There's a lovely thing
about helping young people.
1089
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:25,320
She discovered extraordinary
artists and nurtured them,
1090
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:28,070
some of the great artists
of our time,
1091
01:23:28,070 --> 01:23:31,280
but it wasn't about money,
1092
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:33,860
it was just about art.
1093
01:23:44,780 --> 01:23:47,320
This, of course, is a Pollock
1094
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:51,110
of that period when Art Of
This Century was at its height
1095
01:23:51,110 --> 01:23:53,320
and we were all seeing him
for the first time.
1096
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:55,820
In those days, what were
Pollocks selling for?
1097
01:23:55,820 --> 01:23:57,910
Well, nothing at all.
1098
01:23:57,910 --> 01:23:59,910
A few hundred dollars, maybe...
1099
01:23:59,910 --> 01:24:03,820
Maybe $600 for one this size
1100
01:24:03,820 --> 01:24:05,950
would have been already
a very good price.
1101
01:24:07,450 --> 01:24:09,030
It must make you very proud.
1102
01:24:09,030 --> 01:24:10,700
No, I think it's completely insane
1103
01:24:10,700 --> 01:24:12,160
the way it's gone up in value.
1104
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:14,110
Museum directors used to
come and tell me
1105
01:24:14,110 --> 01:24:17,070
this picture's worth so much
and that picture's worth so much
1106
01:24:17,070 --> 01:24:19,780
I nearly had a fit - I thought
of what a responsibility it was
1107
01:24:19,780 --> 01:24:21,450
having these expensive pictures,
1108
01:24:21,450 --> 01:24:23,240
I didn't like it at all.
1109
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:24,990
Some of these prices are subjective
1110
01:24:24,990 --> 01:24:26,700
because they're so rare.
1111
01:24:26,700 --> 01:24:28,700
You know, there might be
a number of opinions
1112
01:24:28,700 --> 01:24:30,360
as to what they are worth.
1113
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:33,780
You're talking billions -
billions of dollars. Billions.
1114
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:48,910
She was being courted
at the end of her life
1115
01:24:48,910 --> 01:24:51,820
by a number of institutions
who wanted the collection.
1116
01:24:52,990 --> 01:24:56,780
Her one requirement was that
the collection stay in Venice.
1117
01:24:56,780 --> 01:24:59,700
I don't think she had
the resources to endow it
1118
01:24:59,700 --> 01:25:02,910
so, luckily, she had a rich uncle.
1119
01:25:02,910 --> 01:25:07,160
When I went to New York
to have the exhibition in '69
1120
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:10,490
it was like proposing to somebody
who was dying to marry me.
1121
01:25:28,700 --> 01:25:29,950
And how do you feel
1122
01:25:29,950 --> 01:25:32,280
about walking down the ramp
at the Guggenheim Museum
1123
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:35,280
and seeing your paintings in
a completely different environment?
1124
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:37,490
Oh, my uncle's garage, yes!
1125
01:25:37,490 --> 01:25:39,660
It looks like a garage, doesn't it?
1126
01:25:39,660 --> 01:25:41,820
I mean, all that circular business
1127
01:25:41,820 --> 01:25:44,160
is the way garages
are built in Europe.
1128
01:25:45,530 --> 01:25:47,990
On circular ramps.
1129
01:25:47,990 --> 01:25:50,360
Nice to have an uncle
with a garage like that!
1130
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:56,740
I never was on very good terms
with my uncle, Mr Solomon.
1131
01:25:58,450 --> 01:26:01,780
I think if he saw this now
he'd turn in his grave.
1132
01:26:09,780 --> 01:26:12,780
By making the agreement
that her collection
1133
01:26:12,780 --> 01:26:16,610
would be part of the foundation
created by her uncle,
1134
01:26:16,610 --> 01:26:18,700
that was an extraordinary step,
1135
01:26:18,700 --> 01:26:20,110
it was the first step
1136
01:26:20,110 --> 01:26:23,110
where you had a major
cultural institution
1137
01:26:23,110 --> 01:26:26,490
that was spread over continents.
1138
01:26:26,490 --> 01:26:30,610
But it also had a huge influence on
the development of Venice itself.
1139
01:26:30,610 --> 01:26:35,280
Venice is now viewed as,
of course, the city of history,
1140
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:38,660
but also very much
the city of contemporary art.
1141
01:26:39,860 --> 01:26:43,660
She was smart because,
by keeping it there,
1142
01:26:43,660 --> 01:26:47,450
it really ensured that
her personal presence
1143
01:26:47,450 --> 01:26:49,070
was always going to be felt.
1144
01:26:50,570 --> 01:26:53,360
And I think that that's
the most important aspect
1145
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,490
about going in to that museum today,
is that you feel her.
1146
01:27:08,450 --> 01:27:10,860
If you only have
three museums you can visit,
1147
01:27:10,860 --> 01:27:12,570
this would definitely be one.
1148
01:27:12,570 --> 01:27:14,030
It's like a pilgrimage.
1149
01:27:14,030 --> 01:27:18,700
It's everything 20th century
is about, should be about.
1150
01:27:22,110 --> 01:27:25,360
It's just this incredible
personal journey.
1151
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,200
It's about an opinion,
1152
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:30,280
it's about a taste,
it's about a choice.
1153
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:34,360
All these things that
most museums are not about.
1154
01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:37,530
To me, it's her biggest
contribution to history.
1155
01:27:43,780 --> 01:27:47,570
She was collecting because she was
really attracted to this art.
1156
01:27:47,570 --> 01:27:50,200
She found something
of herself in it.
1157
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:53,410
She had tremendous courage, she had
the courage of her conviction.
1158
01:27:53,410 --> 01:27:55,610
She was ready to take a risk
1159
01:27:55,610 --> 01:27:58,820
and she also understood intuitively
1160
01:27:58,820 --> 01:28:01,530
its art-historical significance.
1161
01:28:03,410 --> 01:28:06,950
Looking at Peggy Guggenheim
and what she accomplished,
1162
01:28:06,950 --> 01:28:09,280
my biggest takeaway
1163
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:11,860
is just hold on to the art.
1164
01:28:13,490 --> 01:28:16,450
Great art is eternal,
1165
01:28:16,450 --> 01:28:20,910
and if you can attach yourself to it
in the right way -
1166
01:28:20,910 --> 01:28:24,700
and she certainly did it
in the right way -
1167
01:28:24,700 --> 01:28:27,450
you kind of gain
a certain immortality.
1168
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:49,490
Everything used to be much more fun
than it is nowadays.
1169
01:29:12,780 --> 01:29:14,910
I can't be jealous of the past.
1170
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:17,740
Or know the future.
1171
01:29:21,910 --> 01:29:23,740
It's horrible to get old.
1172
01:29:24,910 --> 01:29:27,910
It's one of worst things
that can happen to you.
1173
01:29:29,740 --> 01:29:32,860
I really felt I'd accomplished
what I wanted to do,
1174
01:29:32,860 --> 01:29:36,360
and I've done it very successfully
and I'm very happy about that.
96130
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