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[Music]
[Music]
[Music]
David he believes that you're fixin to
hit him tonight he says no we are not
fixing to hit you that is not true
nobody's coming in there okay you got my
word it's solid it's a thousand percent
absolute okay okay I know I know that
everybody's skittish but you know we
just gotta work on the kids wait
[Music]
oh no no no reason
[Music]
what is God intending to bring out of
this situation if we do our part as his
servants the government does their part
as whoever they are in the plan of God
what is it that God plans to bring out
of it that's the way they thought
[Music]
we never went in we did not introduce
fired to this compound it was not our
intention that this compound be burned
down I can't tell you the shock and the
horror that all of us felt when we saw
those flames coming out there it was oh
my god they're killing themselves
[Music]
I just hope everyone doesn't jump to
making decisions with before they've
heard our sizes right now all you're
getting is the prep you're being very
perverted you read best god read your
Bible know what you talking about what
are you doing with your life what do you
do every day when your life is something
God approves up I mean why are you judge
us make sure your own life is clean you
know I mean we're being perfect
we believe that this thing had to be
brought to a logical conclusion at some
point we never fired one single round of
ammunition
whether rules of engagement by the FBI
what were they yes they were that they
would not shoot unless someone's life
was in danger the joint hearings to the
oversight Subcommittee on crime will now
come to order
the gentleman from North Carolina mr.
Coble for five minutes thank the
gentleman in the fall of 1993 Treasury
and justice issued their respective
reports about Waco Treasury in effect
said well ATF blew it we were the bad
guys
justice on the other hand exonerates the
FBI well folks when I read when I got
those two reports I thought this is all
too coincidental
one group conveniently assuming blame
the other group what walks waltzing away
with no blame this is the approach of
what I call the lunatic fringe still
clings to the notion that there was a
gigantic governmental conspiracy that
brought about this nightmare it's
difficult to see how any rational human
being subscribed to subscribes to such a
notion but obviously many do what I am
Telling You is that the most plausible
single explanation for this nightmare
namely the apocalyptic vision of a
criminally insane charismatic cult
leader who was hell-bent on bringing
about this infernal nightmare in flames
and the extermination of the children
and the women and the other innocence is
not an explanation that should be cast
aside
revelation states that Christ has the
key of David only he can open it up and
shut there's 150 Psalms here some people
find it amazing that I know every one of
them Vernon Howell thinks he's the Lamb
of God when all he is is a cheap thug
who interprets the Bible through the
barrel of a gun now they're making
self-serving statements that ATF opened
fire there was an element and the press
conferences every day to demonize David
and it was through the language you know
cult leader David Koresh and compound
and bunker and militarized the situation
so that nothing ever positive came there
was never any sense of telling the
public well who are these people I'm
poor leader
well you had a bunch of women children
elderly people they were all good good
people they had different beliefs and
there's different beliefs and I never
maybe different beliefs and you have and
their way of life and especially in
their religious
beliefs but basically they were good
people I was around them quite a lot
they were always a nice man early they
minded their own business they were
never overbearing they were always clean
and courteous I liked and what brings
you all the way from England a nice
lovely home of which I've seen in Benin
what brings you to America to a place
called Waco Texas or whack wake of whack
with Texas anybody want to speak first
I've always wanted to know understand
the Bible and I wanted to know about the
seven seals and I met somebody you can
show me the center-field I have my
passages my businesses I was informants
in their faces
nobody show me and now I found what I've
been looking for the home video shown
throughout this film is the only record
of the Davidians during the 51-day siege
it was made because the FBI gave them a
camera and asked them to talk about
themselves
control the FBI showed those tapes to no
one and in its report admits that it did
not do that because it thought that
those tapes would have won sympathy for
Koresh of course the public heard of
David Koresh in February of 93 but the
history of the group goes back for about
50 years long before David Koresh was
even born
the Branch Davidians are a break off
from the seventh-day Adventist Church
Advent meaning the second coming of
Jesus the Davidians
starting with a man by the name of
Victor Montes in the 1930s and 40s
believed that God had once again visited
his people with a living prophet that's
the key victor heart of claim to be that
living prophet and moved his followers
to waco texas from southern california
during the 1930s living outside town and
cottages the Davidians studied the bible
as literal truth the book of Revelation
and its cryptic seven seals was their
focus Christians generally believe the
seals tell God's plan sequence of events
leading to Judgment Day and that their
true meaning can only be explained by
the Lamb of God the Messiah who'll come
during the last days
five years after hottes death in 1954
all davidians gathered at Mount Carmel
they believed Armageddon the Bible's
predicted final battle between good and
evil was close
[Music]
we feel that world conditions are such
in the line with prophecy that all
nations are soon to gather again in
Jerusalem to battle in fact we expect
that to be the spring the Davidian
church almost disappeared after that but
then in Lois Road and kept a small group
together
[Music]
Lois led the Davidians after her husband
died and it was she who tutored young
Vernon Howell as her understudy
when Louis Roden died a leadership
conflict between Howell and her son
George dubbed the madman of Waco split
the Davidians so Holly jihad there it's
what you have with Khomeini against
Israel you've got a Vernon Howell
against me
the majority backed Howell when George
chased them off at gunpoint Powell and
his followers moved to Palestine Texas
where they live together in buses in
tents after an armed confrontation
between the two rivals Vernon Howell
became the new Davidian leader George
Rowton was later convicted of murder in
an unrelated matter
during a pilgrimage to Israel how I
believed God chose him to be a
contemporary Cyrus and free God's chosen
people just as the ancient Persian king
Cyrus had defeated the Babylonians and
freed the captive Jews on returning to
the United States he legally changed his
first name to David honoring the Hebrew
king David and his last name to Koresh
after the Messiah Koresh mentioned in
the Book of Isaiah Koresh is the Hebrew
word for Cyrus what he essentially
claimed was not to be God or not to be
Jesus Christ the Davidians believe that
Jesus Christ is in heaven and they are
Christian in the broad sense but he
claimed to be a final christ figure an
anointed one the word Christ really
doesn't refer just to Jesus but it means
somebody that shows in her scent or
anointed he claimed to be that final one
that's mentioned in the book of
Revelation the seventh messenger the
final messenger it's to come and he also
found himself prophesied and throughout
this Hebrew Scriptures but particularly
the Book of Isaiah and many of the
Psalms and very detailed ways and he
would go through the scriptures and find
the references to a sinfulness son and
he says my sins are more than the hairs
of my head who could this be
oh this time when Christ reveals and
stuff is gonna be according to the book
cuz there's some statements in there
that might make you a little bit happy
ok such as the rest of silence 40 Lord I
have preached the righteousness in a
great congregation what's he gonna
preach fact the sinful Messiah phrase
got picked up by the Waco Tribune Herald
and pushed in the wrong direction the
claim of korish and its followers was
not go out and deliberately sent but
unlike Christ this one will not be
without sin he'll be an ordinary human
being who does sin
attracted by Koresh's biblical teachings
new members increase the Davidians
numbers in 1991 they recycled the lumber
from the cottages and built the communal
church that became familiar during the
siege
[Music]
as a multiracial congregation of all
ages from around the world
residents contributed both their labor
and money earned by work around Waco to
support the spiritual life of Mount
Carmel
you
[Music]
DubLi the crash was the messiah i think
he was a messiah the allegations of
child abuse and instances of violence in
the pastor are generally are these
things generally consistent with with
the religious groups that you've studied
the pattern of allegations is a very
familiar one I mean the way people
described what was going on inside
convents sounds an awful lot like what
we hear people describing going on
inside the Branch Davidians or what
people thought as was referred to
earlier about what was going on with the
Mormons in their early history oh I
think it's very important for us both to
take those allegations seriously in the
sense of actually investigating them but
also to realize that there is this
predictable pattern once a group has
decided that they want to live very
differently and see the rest of us is
wrong that we're also likely to respond
with a variety of kinds of fears and
expectations and exaggerations the two
things about the group that I guess
created the most sensation would be the
reported sexual irregularities polygamy
and so forth you know underage women
marrying David and the arms
it makes nobody's business whether we
have a gun or not at this place guns are
the right of Americans to have arguments
the greatest in the world we have
freedom not freedom for religion not
freedom for a state but freedom for all
you see and that's what a lot of people
don't understand
what he usually quoted is a scripture
from Jesus on the night of his arrest
where Jesus did not resist
Jesus says from now on
from now on let him who has no sword by
one your King David have swords did
Jesus tell the Apostles to carry sword
with you yes in other words say get
ready for the future this is for the
little children right God knows how it
should be
Stars and Stripes a-flying give us
justice and liberty for the children's
sake you know you might have to bear a
gun one day now how does that translate
into say the communal living even the
sexual arrangements of the group it's
still textually based at the time of the
end those who have wives should live as
though they have none that's a teaching
in the New Testament and then it
explains the whole Catholic teaching on
celibacy you see this here
hey this is my family may not be like
your family
now David kooris himself obviously is
not living the celibate life the family
that you just show that is yours
is that family mentioned in the
scriptures anything to do with the seven
seals you answer that
y'all answer that I mean I just is my
great wonderful looks something that
just women can't resist huh and as
everything to do with the seal it has
everything to do with the seals you know
despite all the sneers and Snickers that
that would cause on the part of the
public what they believed is that
although celibacy is the way for the
group that this figure this final figure
has the obligation to beget twenty four
children and he has multiple wives it's
in prophecy in other words might have
been convenient but this is what they
found a lot of believes people have may
seem abnormal absord strange to other
people that doesn't mean that it's not
right though
and these twenty four children are to
become the 24 elders that are to rule
the earth and they found these various
prophecies he would have claimed and did
claim that this was nothing to do with
sensuality or sexual desire essentially
it was for procreation and he believed
that these children through the selected
wives would be pure and like no children
ever born there the beginning of the New
Eden you know our children know how to
respect they know how to be mindful they
know how to do Michael's they see it
here they see it in the parents we
subject ourselves to God rule beating
unto God we follow the pattern about
that God would have us to do they would
be raised completely in the community
they would have never eaten the even the
diet of the world that a phial world out
there never watched TV never
participated in all the things that he
saw as a corruption of the culture
that's how they would explain it
I think that all you got kids in the
supermarkets who run and scream and who
eat all this junk food all the time and
all this candy I think if you look at
the children you'll see the actual
product of a parent after the Waco
disaster Allen stone a Harvard professor
of both law and psychiatry was asked to
serve on a United States Department of
Justice panel examining law enforcement
policy toward unconventional groups like
the Branch Davidians
and leaders like David Koresh I think
Koresh was not a criminal
psychopathic type he had as a youngster
spent months memorizing the Bible and
particularly these particular passages
about the seven seals and that sort of
repetitive study memorization of
throwing herself into that kind of
disciplined project is not what
sociopaths do and he was able to
convince the other people by his
knowledge of the Bible and the way he
put it together that's how he convinced
people like mr. Martin and mr. Schneider
were both intelligent serious people mr.
Martin was a graduate of Harvard Law
School he was one of our earliest
african-american graduates he was
certainly not a weirdo he was certainly
not a criminal he was certainly not a
psychopath he had gone on and done
further religious studies after leaving
Harvard Law School and had become
interested in Koresh's tea
Kings that is how he got into the
compound so the idea that these people
like Schneider and and Martin or somehow
criminal types or people who had just
been sort of buffaloed by Koresh I think
is a most unfortunate
mischaracterization in contrast to
somebody though like Jim Jones of the
Jonestown disaster Koresh did not really
exercise this stunning spellbinding
mesmerizing stare you down sort of
approach nobody you talked to the
Davidians that have survived none of
them come out talking about oh boy when
David spoke I just felt like you know
that was God that isn't how they talk
they don't even have that sort of pious
feeling
why do the heathen rage what's their
problem and the people imagine a vain
thing what are they thinking their
thoughts are make-believe it's a vanity
their thoughts are vain I mean nothing
to myself I want to know what truth is
I'm searching for it he happens to be
the vehicle that shows me I thank God
thank you great you see the son of God
I hope he is
could you kind of describe for us how
your findings differ from the rest of
the reports who are the reporters who
have covered this story first I want to
say thanks for reading my book well
you're welcome always does
the biggest surprise I encountered in
writing this book is that I had no
competitors and naturally my conclusions
differ or my questions differ because I
learned a lot more than they did because
they abandoned the story when the
building burned down now of course there
were some who didn't abandoned quite as
quickly as others but in general this
represents a major major failure of the
press in our country one of the
prophecies that had been around Mount
Carmel since 1934 call for an ultimate
confrontation between God's people or
those at Mount Carmel and the forces of
an armed apostate power called Babylon
perhaps with that in mind in 1991 he
began studying armaments and buying and
selling guns he pretty quickly found out
there's a lot of money to be made at gun
shows and he and other people started
going to gun shows and they bought and
sold we now say or the press now says
and most people say they stockpile
weapons all gun dealers stockpile
weapons all gun shops stockpile weapons
we call those stockpiles and inventory
how can one use firearms as an
investment the journeys that he was
buying would go up in value no question
okay and do you know other people who do
that yes not uncommon by there was
obviously you know firearms that were
there and there were a lot of
individuals that had their own firearms
and there were you know quite an amount
of firearms but being in Texas you know
we had people come from the community
out sir
property and shoot with us on our firing
range and it was not really a big deal
you know I went to a couple gun shows
before I'm not enthusiastic all to say
the least but I went to a couple gun
shows I met some people and you know
some of our neighbors I would talk to
had themselves they had like 10 and 12
guns just in their little family you
know so I just kind of called the
good-old-boy senator my go-to boy you
know kind of mentality down in Texas and
it's a constitutional right it's not you
know evil or demonized did you state in
your book at page 122 that you thought
that the ATF was seeking to enforce
unconstitutional firearms laws I found a
scholar who studied the constitutional
history of firearms laws and whose
opinion is that they may not be
constitutional I was quite impressed to
find out that that argument could be
made and thought readers deserved a
chance to to see it well now that you've
studied it and written and promoted it
what do you think now whether or not
they're constitutional aren't you
worried about that
yo whether they're constitutional if the
findings of these professors are
trustworthy that is a question to be
litigated in the courts I understand I
mean it's nice to write a book about
what may or may not be constitutional
and unconstitutional but yet when you
come here to testify well there's no
question now that you've thought about
it this is not so unconstitutional as as
you would have thought I know just a
moment I didn't do I didn't mr. chairman
I think it is incumbent upon all of the
city of these witnesses and I don't see
what harm would would result or ensue if
the gentlemen were allowed to explain
perhaps a response he didn't get a
chance to do I think we have to
distinguish between illegality and
constitutionality whether or not the
arms laws are constitutional will be at
this point the courts say they are
tomorrow they may say different because
of the research I cite in my book
at this time I believe that all of you
have some testimony in front of you from
kiri Jewell Kari welcome and thank you
for being here you can begin when Mom
and Lisa and I went to Texas for
Passover in 1991
David preached to us I sat on the floor
playing with his shoelaces while he
talked my mom and Lisa went to do a
little shopping I took a shower and then
I was brushing my hair sitting in the
chair and David took me told me to come
and sit down by him in the bed I was
wearing a long white t-shirt and panties
he kissed me and sat there but then he
laid me down and he took his penis I've
been very very critical of the
presentation earlier in this hearing of
the victimization of kiri Jewell because
as serious as child rape is of course
the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and
Firearms was conducting a firearms law
investigation and search and the issue
of mr. Koretz depravity is not what they
were investigating or going to serve a
search warrant for and I think that that
testimony was put into this hearing to
take newspaper headlines and other media
attention away from a lot of the
testimony about the law enforcement
participation in the rape
I'd like to just introduce the
biographies of the panel dick Guerin is
a widely recognized defense attorney in
the state of Texas he represented David
Koresh and entered the compound during
the siege what I call so introduced mr.
Jackson Zimmerman also a well known and
respected attorney he represented Steve
Snyder he also gathered firsthand
evidence upon entering the compound
during the siege in addition to being a
defense attorney mr. Zimmerman is a
colonel in the United States Marine
Corps Reserve he practices as a military
judge to very credible witnesses welcome
you are saying mr. Guerin I saw in David
Koresh not a person who was insane a
person who was deeply committed and
sincere about his religious beliefs
well I am sorry for you if that's what
you see in him this was not a bunch of
people who'd had
who'd been hypnotized these people that
I saw and I met almost everybody in
there that died in that fire these
people believed they believed in the
Bible
some people had been there as long as 40
years some people had been born and
raised there they were there because
they believed in a a vision of the Bible
that was unusual I don't understand it I
mean and these scholars have a difficult
time understanding it but it was real
you can't legislate away that in fact
the First Amendment says that we can't
do anything about that do you doubt the
testimony of kiri Jewell who was here
did you hear about that yes I did you
doubt that yes do you doubt that miss
yes sir okay do you know why yeah you
can tell me why that that we didn't
learn of that the first time when that
she testified for this hearing she's
made that that kind of claim has been
made for some time her own mother didn't
believe that her own grandmother didn't
believe that right there's been doubts
about prior two contradictory statements
that she's made in the past now it may
be a hundred percent true just because
my time is up in my judgment in many
ways these witnesses are trying to
simply deny things that just about
everybody else accepts as fact about
David Koresh and I'd like we worked on
that for a couple of years in fact we
had the Department of Human Services go
out and interview some of the kids and
and whatever they could do I had people
go out with them to interview to this
day we don't have a case that we can
make against Vernon Howell or anyone for
child abuse even though the news media
here and other people kept saying this
isn't what happened a man from Australia
said this is what happened but we can
never get them to give us anything more
than just we know that's what happened
you have to have proof to go into court
keep in mind too that most of the girls
who were involved were were at least 14
years old and 14 year-olds get married
with parental consent so if their
parents
there and letting them letting things
happen in the way of sexual activities
and what have you with their 14 year old
kids you have common-law husbands and
wives
I don't say that I agree with that and
that I approve of it but at the same
time if parents are there and they're
giving parental consent we have a
problem with that in making a case my
investigations convinced me that David
Koresh was guilty of statutory rape but
I don't understand why two-thirds of the
search warrant is about child abuse and
statutory rape when the ATF has no
jurisdiction over those offenses we
determined that at the compound machine
guns were being manufactured and
explosive devices our goal through this
investigation was to execute a search
warrant on that house to obtain those
illegal weapons in addition it had
reason to believe that Koresh iners
followers might pose a danger not only
to themselves but but to the surrounding
community I think in the case of the
Davidians if people had listened
carefully to their rhetoric with an ear
toward an understanding of religious
apocalyptic language would probably not
have been worried about them using these
weapons against their neighbors in a
word what the search warrant found was
gun parts it was the duty of the ATF to
show that those gun parts were owned
with an intent to create illegal weapons
I'm not a lawyer or a judge but my
reading of the warrant does not convince
me that that intent was there do you say
it's not been proven that there were 48
illegal machine guns and a bunch of
illegal hand grenades on his compound I
believe there were 48 illegal automatic
weapons on April the 19th I don't know
that's a case on February 28 sir
I see but there were weapons about hand
grenades was there testimony about that
I would they don't know I don't recall
that do you recall mr. de Guerra no I
don't know and even though you know
every other detail about the trial
that's not fair mr. Schumer do you doubt
that there were 48 illegal weapons
I never said I knew all the details of
the trial right now sir what is your
question my question is do you doubt do
you have doubts that mr. kourosh had on
his compound illegal weapons and illegal
hand grenades no have any doubts about
that
no he tricked me he had illegal you have
not tell me that he had hand grenades
there I see and I saw no hand grenades I
did see some grenades that the ATF had
thrown in and I brought one out what'd
he do thrown in the ATF threw in
grenades in their dynamic grenades in
his eye yes they'd and it I thought wow
they were flashbacks they did not see
what a flashbang can do to somebody and
it's a grenade it has an explosive
charge in it it's very dangerous it can
blow your hand off it can blow your face
off it can kill I would have brought out
some of the unexpended grenades that the
ATF threw in but I was worried about
bringing out a live grenade so I left
them there there were a number of
grenades
okay mr. de Guerre and I think that
would hamper your credibility because
you're the first person who would say
that that was were grenades I've never
really sat through a hearing the way the
likes of yesterday six and a half hours
of defense lawyers they're marathons
their ways of sliding over the truth was
very unfortunate this idea of the FBI
having hand grenades not flashbangs but
hand grenades and finally coup de Gras
mr. de Garin said flash bangers can kill
injure maim anyone who knows anything
about these things knows they can't mr.
Kavanaugh I have in my hand here a mount
of play-doh mr. Bush if you could this
is just just standard play-doh if that
were a flashbang grenade or a stun
grenade the same thing which was live
which pin had been pulled would you feel
comfortable just holding that in your
hand
well mr. Barr a flashbang grenade my
answer is no I would not want to hold it
those are classified as destructive
devices under 26 USC Section 5845 a
foreign thing yes sir they are that they
can kill people is that true sir
yes sir well a gentleman by the name of
Warren L Parker an explosives
enforcement officer Bureau of ATF on May
11 1994 in court said under oath that
they are designed to help kill the
suspect while not endangering the
law-enforcement officer when they're
used for those purposes I'd like to
focus on the search warrant first it was
put together as a number of witnesses
have testified in a prejudicial and
inflammatory manner and second it
clearly missed States the US Code
statute number for the offense charge
and I think makes other technical
mistakes in the law which means to me it
was put together in a sloppy fashion now
you put together inflammatory was sloppy
that translates to me that that ATF was
in a hurry to make a big splash with
something why was a warrant sought in
the first place since David kooris on
learning that he was being investigated
by ATF invited the agency on July 30th
1992 through his gun dealer Henry
McMahon to come to his residence and
inspect his firearms and I go I got
David Koresh on the phone
in Davie Aguilera he goes it jumps up
and does goes don't go don't go and I
know I got him on the phone and he goes
they never once followed up on that
offer never even tried to follow up on
that offer
I can't imagine any circumstances that I
would not take up such an offer perhaps
what the ATF thought were violations of
the law were really things that mr.
Koresh thought were legal suggest and
that's that what they really wanted to
do was to conduct a raid not make an
arrest or conduct a search in the
opinion of the agents this the planning
for Waco and the the manner in which it
was done was done for the purpose of
publicity miss Hartnett there's a
rumored surely it's unfounded that the
publicity person or public relations
person for ATF had released some kind of
a press communication the night before
to media around the country that
something big was going to come down in
Texas yes and we heard that and she
called
called a reporter to ask if he was going
to be in what did she do that she wanted
to be able to get a hold of them if
there was a story and they recovered
these arms
wouldn't it be ample time after they
were recovered oh yes I mean what
happened is that I contacted channel 8
and Channel five in Dallas I just said
we might have something going on here in
Dallas this weekend and I'd like to have
a weekend contact number and that's what
I was given what was the purpose of
contacting them were you actually
seeking publicity for the agency
absolutely
okay maybe then I don't understand the
purpose for contacting them with its
appropriations hearings a week away a
large successful raid would produce
major positive headlines to counter the
ATF's reputation as a rogue agency whose
debacles blackened the reputation of
other agencies and it would scare the
public enough about fringe groups to
create political pressure on Congress to
increase its budget at least part of the
ATF motivation even if it never rose to
the surface of discussion was to enforce
the morals of our society to enforce the
psyche of right thinking by retaliating
against these odd people let me just ask
mr. Moulton was there a cover-up
absolutely not not by the Treasury
Department in the preparation of that
report absolutely not do you agree with
that comment no I don't why I feel that
the Treasury Department has said things
since the time of the rate of Waco that
that have been incorrect it also had
many omissions distortions and false
statements in it why do you believe
those divisions and false statements are
in that report I believe that they were
concerned about the fallout from the
media where these agents knowingly out
done before they started we weren't
outgunned at Waco that's for sure almost
100 agents spent three days in dress
rehearsals at Fort Hood Texas all at US
Army expense in order
for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and
Firearms to have obtained the military
assistance they did receive not because
of the Posse Comitatus Act because of
existing military policy they
misrepresented to the military that this
was an anti-drug raid when it was never
an anti-drug raid unfortunately there
are many people who still when they
speak to me about Waco say well those
people were involved in drugs and
there's no evidence that Koresh was or
that any of these people were as
practicing lawyers we know that usually
judges rubber-stamp the applications for
search warrant the Fourth Amendment
guarantees the right of the people to be
secure in their persons houses papers
and effects ironically a charred copy of
the very amendment was found in the
debris at Waco
there's the charred copy that was found
right there at Waco
the morning of February 28th ATF and
Texas Department of Public Safety
officers blocked the roads leading to
Mount Carmel center several miles away
the raid gene was busy suiting up fully
expecting to surprise the Davidians
[Music]
Sharon wheeler had ample videotape for
the many cameras that agency officials
thought would record a major publicity
coup
most of the 130 men women and children
inside Mount Carmel learned about the
raid only minutes before it happened the
news people were out there 30 minutes
before the raid
that's how supposedly they were tipped
off I'm used person about the time I got
there David came in from the other side
different side of the room and came in
and said that they'd heard that somebody
was coming and he wanted everybody to
remain calm go back to their rooms and
just stay cool he would go down the
front door and talk to them you're with
Koresh correct he gets very nervous did
you request that the raid be called off
because the element of surprise had been
lost
yes sir I arrived at the command post
and the first thing the first thing I
asked was was Chuck where's Chuck and
they advised me that he had left at that
time I started yelling and and I said
why why they know we're coming they know
we're coming I did not feel he knew that
we were coming at that time when I
talked with Robert like I testified
before I took notes why we were talking
over the thing and I've read all of
Roberts statements Robert did it did a
great job but I think everything that
you heard Fire's testimony was not
passed on to me those two men no no what
I told him and then you exactly what I
meant and instead of coming up and and
admitted to the American people right
after the raid that they had made a
mistake that the element of surprise had
been lost that the agent had advised him
that they knew they were coming instead
of doing that they lied to the public
and in doing so it just about destroyed
a very great agency the helicopters were
to arrive first at the rear of Mount
Carmel and divert the Davidians
attention from the ATF agents moving in
on the ground
the front
approximately 9:15 we sell three
helicopters two small ones and a large
one and we sat there and watched him
there making big loops behind the
compound just sort of certainly not to
compound it behind it
and I got the camera out seeded to shoot
the helicopter spying around
got three of them
the camera back in we look up and the
channel trailer goes by its a chuck full
of ATF agents and we're sitting there in
about two three four seconds later
another cattle trailer goes by I saw a
truck come in
and her long truck in the front then
this long thing the second truck stopped
and barely stopped in the man jumped out
and all kind of whatever Garrett was he
had on and he had a gun in his hand he
says okay boys then I heard a voice to
the right of me downstairs Patel was at
the door then I heard a voice on the
outside then I heard another voice
inside and then I heard shots outside
and when we drove up the Davidians
opened fire and I'm sickened by any
other assertion I sat there and I
watched it and the gunfire came through
those double white doors I watched it
it's unbelievable but that's what
happened and anybody else who says
anything different they shot first and
if I thought that an ATF agent would
drive up in front of a structure and
shoot I throw my badge in the garbage it
didn't happen
if the Branch Davidians intended to
ambush those people with 48 machine guns
and fifty caliber machine guns and they
came up in unprotected cattle cars with
nothing but tarps on them they would
have blown them a way so that convinced
us that they did not that is the
Davidians did not fire first I sat by
that door for several hours I went in
and out of that door 10 times and I saw
the bullet holes on the door on the
right side almost every bullet hole was
an incoming round and what I mean by
that it's a metal door you could easily
tell that the bullets were incoming
rounds they were punched in I'm not the
the marine expert that Jack Zimmerman is
but I've been hunting since I was 10
years old and I know a bullet hole when
I see it and those were bullet holes
that were punched in of course the
majority of bullet holes would be
through would be going in that direction
because the Davidians
are not going to keep the door closed
and shoot through it what you need to
find is a video tape that was made of
the raid it disappeared what you need to
get is the photographs of the front that
are similar to the one that's being
displayed right now now you have the
power to get that evidence and you ought
to get it that is not fair that is not a
proceeding that is right if we want to
go over the issue of who fired first
then we should wait a second I'd like to
finish my point it's not a point it is a
point if it is not a point of water you
are I will just make one comment to the
witnesses relative to the videotape in
the front door we have consistently
asked as a committee to get a copy of a
videotape which they now say is blank we
have asked for the door and the door is
missing
first cattle trailer had already pulled
up the second one was pulling up when we
got about halfway down the driveway and
all hell broke loose urban NOC search
warrant you know with a knock on the
door and served a warrant and you have
one group a ATF agency goes to the front
of the building music a very large end
up area that we had for Vaughan an
Alaskan Malamute and her four pups that
we're living there and they shot him in
cold blood first thing this was an
unreasonable search done in an
unreasonable manner with excessive force
and the law is clear even an arrest by
lawfully constituted officers can be
resisted if before anything else happens
those officers use excessive force they
a couple of agents or a couple of
detectives walking up to somebody's
front door or knocking on a door and
three-piece suits to execute a warrant
of any kind is over and that's where we
stand we stay in between the Koresh's of
the world and everybody here we stand
more enforcement
first 15-20 minutes it was get the job
done
shoot the video and then when you see
people getting shot you can hear people
screaming and the bullets hitting I have
$2.00 I started thinking about my
daughters
and at that point I wondered how the
heck am I gonna get out of here somebody
said to me Winston Blake is dead I said
where's the yeah maybe he's up in his
room
so as I'm approaching Winston's room I
could hear water running and I couldn't
figure it out you know what would that
be you know as I turned into his doorway
Winston's lying on the floor beside his
bed and a pool of blood and water and
there's water pouring into the room from
just dozens of bullet holes in the water
tank that was right outside his window
and the window was all shattered and
everything I figured that judging from
the angle of the bullets coming down
from the outside and into the room that
it had to be from helicopter there's no
buildings tall buildings out the back
anybody on the ground could have shot at
that angle into the water tanks
the Davidians shot back the helicopter
landing in the foreground has been
forced down by multiple hits 17 year old
Peter Ghent was inside the silo scraping
rust when the raid began Jed is barely
visible in this news video as he climbed
to the top to see what was going on the
video apparently shows him being shot
for this passing helicopter friend Jen
Walters and then drops back onto the
saddles didn't move his body what
happened with your fingers you were just
sitting there and I was told you were
nursing the baby we're sitting there and
ATF agent says newsman newsman
call an ambulance Vanina Daymond John
got back into the car and this is he was
reaching the car he opened the door and
a bullet went through the door jamb that
he drove into the car and we had to
physically make the phone call and this
is my understanding the first time that
name is have been called this was wail
ended again down
battle for some reason they didn't have
any communications why would we have to
call for an ambulance nobody was going
to get us out though in Clinton County
Sheriff's Office who always did a good
job in this case could not get us out of
this we couldn't call 9-1-1 I mean we
couldn't call anybody well it just seems
interesting to me that they didn't even
have telephones or communications to get
that 911 back and forth that Wayne
Martin had from inside the compound for
20 minutes trying to stop the shooting
but at the same time they had fax
machines telephones and computers and
were ready for whatever PR that they had
that that was a mighty mighty strange
operation to say the least and certainly
a fatal flaw not to punt of worry mr.
hot net was there a raid plan we had
pieces of it if you know what I mean
that they hadn't brought it together was
right in the middle of an order going
out to the field giving them specific
instructions and had a written raid plan
how to bring it together and forward it
forward what was out for coordination at
the time now what I received was written
but very very abbreviated in your review
did ATF and their participating in this
close combat support did they have go
no-go procedures yes sir but of a very
I'm looking for the appropriate words
I've just called him unsophisticated
variety an unsophisticated variety
that's very tactful you're being very
tactful today in your report you didn't
you weren't as tactful because you said
their lack of contingency plan basically
was quote a no-shit plan isn't that
basically what you that those were like
they were run from the building take
cover oh [ __ ]
they were throwing everything at us and
they're gonna sound like cannons and
arguing sound like top guns we had nine
millimeters they were hitting us the 223
1847 50 calibers but it was more than
you can imagine
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
[Music]
after about approximately two hours we
heard that there were the truth
we heard ATF agent say don't shoot don't
shoot
the agents were out of ammunition they
could have killed it nearly ever ATF
agent out there
the day of the raid had they kept
shooting but when they said they would
leave their property and they quit
shooting
[Music]
you guard with me you come argue with me
you come pointing guns in the direction
of my wives and my kids damn it I'll
I'll eat you Thor any time and I'm sorry
some of you guys got shot but uh hey God
will have to sort that out
the chair recognizes mrs. Taylor from
Mississippi you have any combat
experience 26 months sir commanded two
artillery batteries in Vietnam in
Vietnam yes sir miss Airmen have you
seen anything or heard anything that
would lead you to believe or read
anything that justifies the murder of
those four ATF agents the 20 more who
were wounded by the branch civilians by
David Koresh and his followers on the
morning of February 28th the jury in San
Antonio found that the killings of the
four agents were in self-defense they
were acquitted of murder sir did you
know that they were acquitted of murder
and acquitted of conspiracy to commit
murder every single defendant all eleven
were acquitted of murder are you going
to tell me that every murderer in this
country who's walked was really innocent
well you asked me did we know of
anything that would say that they
weren't guilty of murder and the answer
is yes if the ATF accidentally or
however opened fire on people in their
home and all they did was defend
themselves in their home then under the
law that's justifiable homicide it's not
murder is there any way that somebody
could believe that justifiable homicide
could be used as a defense here
no mr. Schumer they shot through the
doors they shot through the ceilings
assertions that we had helicopters are
men from Mars shooting at them's
nonsense our agents were laying on the
ground shooting at a tower three stories
high should we be surprised there's
bullets in the roof of course I agree
with you mr. I'm sorry
thank you must understand that not one
agent who was at the raid on the scene
on the 28th made a written report of it
that's highly irregular I March the
first the ATF initiates a shooting
review Johnston the assistant United
States attorney advised Hartnett to stop
the ATF shooting review because ATF was
creating Brady material Brady material
ladies and gentlemen is information that
might tend to show that someone accused
is innocent
some they try to explain this to say
well that just meant you know we have we
don't want to put copper
the prosecution you don't want to
compromise the prosecution by revealing
evidence it might tend to show that
somebody is not guilty of the charges
well that's not where we are in this
country I hope that's just one agency
all the other agencies back there are
going to back them up that's including
our federal government we the people
don't run this government anymore they
do and they tell all the lies they want
[Music]
those that are trying to do their best
are trying to do the job they have a
family back home too
but they don't understand what is doing
if they did they would
shortly after the wounded arrived armed
guard stood sentry at hospital entrances
ATF agents comforted each other as they
found out the toll taken in this raid 15
agents were brought to Hillcrest Baptist
Medical Center three of them died
including one agent who was shot in the
head
[Music]
Oh
[Applause]
okay I'm bleeding again my top 20 minute
[Applause]
[Music]
let's say one of the holes here that was
nice
caught up higher
thank piston one out right here
phone
whose yesterday that's a good we gotta
turn more
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
this has been
[Music]
way to go
you can see it anyway it's kind of
thankful
Oh ain't nothin some guy like me
it's just flash heels
some Davidian mothers sent their
children out of Mount Carmel as they
were delivered to a rendezvous point
news reports said three Davidians tried
to escape by shooting their way past ATF
agents the story was false investigators
in a military helicopter discovered the
body approximately 350 yards from the
cult compound he was the victim of
gunshot wounds on it and basically
that's on the phone front Jim Cavanaugh
was trying to get that maybe what you
might want the media to believe there's
other people that fall to now tell me
Jim again
you're honestly gonna say those
helicopters didn't fire on any of us
I'm here yeah well I'm saying is that
those helicopters did not have mounted
guns okay
I'm not disputing the fact that there's
fire from the helicopters what I'm
telling you is we're still mounted guns
you know outside mounted guns the
helicopters had guns the dispute was
over I believe Germans that you said
that they didn't fire on us from the
helmet on well a few some pounds of God
yeah but beside the point what they did
have was machine guns
on March 1st the be ATF handed control
to the FBI my name is Dan Hartnett the
deputy director of the Bureau of Alcohol
Tobacco and Firearms I'm going to make a
brief statement each they're going to
make a brief statement and then we'll
open it up to questions my name is Jeff
Jamar I'm gonna specialize in charge of
the FBI in the san antonio division and
then the specialize in charge of FBI
operations here in Waco miss J am I our
first name is Jeff we're here because
David Koresh and his followers killed
four ATF agents we've responded with
with necessary of personnel and
equipment the area is a crime scene the
goal is to resolve this situation
ultimately in federal court with no
further bloodshed
the FBI is getting involved now but uh
it's kind of like getting into a fight
with a couple of next-door neighbors
where the you know the little brother
comes over and whips you and then the
big brother comes over to investigate
you know anyway we're try to work inside
we're prepared to do whatever it takes
stay here as long as it takes to settle
this matter without any further
bloodshed
[Music]
the Davidians were completely surrounded
FBI snipers were placed in sandbag
positions here and here their clear
field of fire meant anyone trying to
leave would easily be gunned down Sierra
1 was the code name for the front half
of Mount Carmel Center it was the side
news cameras saw through telescopic
lenses a mile or two away
ciara - was the back half of Mount
Carmel it was completely hidden from
public view
it was the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and
Firearms that caused this first disaster
okay so the FBI takes it over there very
sensible reasonable they decide we'll
negotiate they quickly realized that the
negotiators were not in charge in Koresh
at one point says look all you guys are
anyway are waitresses
you carry my my request back to the
kitchen where the boss is they say look
I can't make the decisions if I could
things would go better but the decisions
are being made 1,500 miles away in
Washington DC
[Music]
the information that I have to share
with people can you say what cog
sensitive TV little more details exactly
after 1:30 you're waiting for him you
finally make contact what does he say
the question was what did God say to the
chorus he says that he did not fulfill
his promise to leave immediately with
his followers because God told him to
wait and Schneider says in Koresh
afterwards later says look we didn't lie
this is like you guys telling us you're
not going to turn off the lights or one
thing or another and getting overruled
from above we have our chain of command
you have your chain of command but if
there is a higher power than you and I
that speaks to an individual if there is
a God in this universe and there's the
laws of man and there's the laws of God
and this God that has led him all his
life says to him to wait what do you do
yes yeah I said that five times Koresh
promised to come out and didn't dr.
Arnold dr. Taber and I sent a message to
them we said show us the five times we
can't find him in the negotiation
transcripts we think they're making that
up
we find no incidents those of us who
listened to the negotiation tapes and
stayed the transcript of Koresh line
I'll March the second he said he was
coming out and then said God told him
not to he if any lies were told it was
that and we would have to know what God
said to Koresh in order to call that a
lie
do you people believe that Koresh is
actually talking to God
crash believes he's talking together the
FBI wasn't prepared to share David
Koresh's contention that we should wait
on God to resolve this
the FBI is wrong it's going to decide
how this is going to be done
[Music]
bringing these tanks and stuff around
here I tell you what being an American
first I'm the kind of guy but I'll stand
in front of a tank you can run over me
I'll be biting one of the tracks no
one's gonna hurt me or my families
that's that sense that's American policy
here agent Pete's Merrick who was in
charge of drawing up the psychological
profile of Korus counseled a cautious
non confrontational approach with korish
and four memos written to senior FBI
officials between March 3rd and March
8th according to mr. Samaras FBI
superiors pressured him to change his
assessment to justify a more
confrontational approach they would do
things like play sound tapes of rabbits
being slaughtered or Nancy Sinatra
singing good songs and and then they
would bring out lights at night and not
not that Nancy Sinatra always was that
bad but the ones that she had kept the
point was this they were trying to have
sleep disturbance and they were trying
to take somebody that they viewed to be
unstable to start with and then they
were trying to drive him crazy and then
they get mad because he does something
that they think is irrational
[Music]
these
[Music]
that's what you have a couple of
Arkansas so these finest members of the
SWAT team this one here is quite a quite
a nice specimen I tell you I just in all
my years involved with SWAT I've never
seen a gentleman like this that I've
learned so much from and just the short
time I've been around you it's just
awesome is about the only word to
describe him
hey holy to a fine edge to kill that's
that's right they just see just a Rambo
he's just like Rambo out here himself
yes right here mister ricks is there a
consideration to use psychological
warfare have you discussed it at all
I don't know what psychological warfare
is this it was reported in the paper
that you would play loud music bright
lights on the compound all night to try
to agitate the entire group is that a
possible we will we will not discuss
tactics of that sort but I would say the
chances are minimal of doing that type
of activity yes ma'am
[Music]
day seven fines reporters facing a
banner reading god help us we want the
Press reporters responds with a
statement of their own the warners
anyway getting some leaflets down to the
media bill Latham drove from Dallas Fort
Worth to volunteer the services of the
Ku Klux Klan we're just tired I mean
we've been watching it about there in
Fort Worth in dallas and we're tired of
what to drag on like this I'm either
give him a get my ultimatum get my
deadline when I first is asked to be
involved as a number of panel I thought
the main problem is going to be
understanding the psychology of the
people inside the compound but as I got
into it I quickly became aware that the
psychology of the people outside the
compound was more important to an
understanding of what happened
they were mooning that the women for
instance they would drop their pants and
bend over and bare their rear end to
people that were looking out the windows
which was you know not a situation that
some of the women or even some of the
men we want to send
nobody's gotta be above these guys
though it's vehicles and what they're
doing do not show what is coming out of
the out of the mouths of some of you
guys let me give you an example now that
we brought this up we had a burial for
one of the people out front
Peter gent was buried out front and the
tanks ran over his grave over and over
and over again just totally like wasn't
even there and they knew that's where we
buried them they just kept running over
and over it and we were disgusted with
that we talked about that quite a bit I
mean I thought this was the country you
know freedom of speech being motivation
whatever and just human dignity
they saw all this as working from a
military point of view because the
people inside the compound the Branch
Davidians weren't shooting back so they
saw themselves as winning the battle as
they tighten but they didn't realize
what we're driving them to the point of
desperation
to my family and friends I just like to
say I'm fine I know that you're all
worried about us I don't have to know
that we're fine right now and everything
right now and is just waiting in God
whatever happens we know it's the way
that God wanted to see if they thought
that we were all brain Washington and
such a bunch of crazies why would the
FBI push David on the rest of us to the
limit did they want to create an
incident did they want us to come out
you know crazy and start shooting so
that they'd have an excuse to gun is
down we didn't know we realize that you
have the ability and it's not below you
people to do something like their erase
all evidences why do you have the press
so far back you can give me any kind of
crap you want I know you know the reason
we're not talking to the press is you
people have got to cover your butt from
what you did and that's what's going on
here and at one point the FBI asked them
do they have fire extinguishers and
Schneider sends someone to check and
comes back with the report that there's
only one fire extinguisher in the
building
the FBI negotiators response is somebody
ought to buy some fire insurance the
question will we permit a pool camera up
close any closer than your we did we
went down the road we stopped to the
place where you could still see the
compound that was not accidental we made
sure that you could still see the
compound we could have moved you where
you don't have any sight we didn't do
that the reason we don't want a camera
there is they watch television and they
watch us approach if we do anything any
we're not going to salt the place but
anything we do around there to get
control that is precisely why you can't
have a camera okay in Waco where they're
weary of the standoff DJ jr. is giving
residents a lift by actually doing what
the FBI only joked about one person was
recommending we play a key Breaky Heart
Container
[Music]
you see that allegations are flying that
all of this may have been avoided two
years ago the FBI received complaints
about the compound and did not pursue
them aggressive it's that matter and
others that have caused several near
fights pushing and shoving that sort of
thing the source says the FBI has
isolated ATF we're taking a back seat
[Music]
everyone in Mount Carmel was free to
leave though theologically the situation
is complex yes you're free to jump out
of Noah's Ark and into the onto the land
that's fixing to be flooded but everyone
was free to leave some did
anyone could have left but geologically
is not a good idea you were risking your
soul if you left what we saw of those
who did come out where they were being
sent to jail the adults even elderly
women in their 70s were being actually
indicted for murder or charges this was
merely old if that's what happened when
people came out we saw it and heard it
on the news
I see
[Music]
dick over the radio there's been a
number of people have wanted to come in
and be a negotiator between ourselves
and you I do believe it would be in the
best interest of all if there was a news
person in between yourselves and
ourselves
we don't want to take anybody okay but
right now it seems like we're coming to
a stalemate you know it we're not
getting anywhere
would you like to have here when you
guys come out who would you like to if I
know your boy you've got a lot and
you're here is it okay explain to me I'm
sorry okay when we come out I'm talking
about right now let's get somebody in
between us right now to do some
negotiating
we have a woman who believed in her
heart and soul that she can get her
grandson to lay down his arms and come
out I'm his grandmother and he's my
grandson all my grandchildren and good
kids because I've taught him well
until a pro told him that I was there
and I'd like to speak anything to charge
and I was a lawyer and I had David
Crescent grandmother with with me and I
wanted to seem about talking and after a
few minutes another one came up to me it
was obviously the guy in charge and was
very surly declined to give me any
information at all so I started to leave
and just as I left turn my back and
started walking toward my van I heard a
voice say coming from one of those
people I don't know which one but one of
them said I hope she has told him
goodbye that was the mentality of the
people who were guarding the gates over
federal law enforcement authorities and
their attitude was we are going to get
revenge against David Koresh and if that
means we have to eliminate all of them
in there that's just fine - that was the
attitude that they had on a special life
call-in show here this morning listeners
had strong opinions on how they think
this tragedy should now be handled a
majority seem to want law enforcement to
end it all quickly
good morning legal 100 I thought so go
in and just take him out and I think
they ought to go and had to get it over
with because I think it's costing us a
lot what could have been done to get the
Davidians out of that compound without
bloodshed we were on the way to doing
that on April the 14th there was a major
breakthrough and that breakthrough was
David Koresh's letter to me which I
promptly gave to the FBI that said that
he'd received his mission that he was
working on writing his interpretation of
the seven seals and that everyone inside
was relieved that they didn't have to
die now that the prophecies were not
being fulfilled now and that this would
be resolved
people don't understand how important
that was David Koresh and his people
believe that God's message for our
generation could not be written and
should not be written and David Koresh
had never before written down his ideas
he believed that he had received a
message from God saying now David right
before I told you not to now I'm telling
you you can
he waited 51 days and then he said the
word came to him and said right and he
wrote this was brought out would they
have the fire but one of the survivors
he was keeping his promise of April 14th
we believe they would have all come out
safely
this this was pulled out of the fire the
tapes were and then then this this then
was written up as evidence that he was
working on that message on the seventh
field all they had to do was say we've
got a death we're gonna be sending it
out when the FBI advised me of their
plan and the possibility of the
insertion of gas I did notify the White
House Counsel and that kept in contact
through the White House Council I am
sure the White House Counsel advised the
president but we're missing some of your
telephone logs particularly April 17th
18th and 19th and our problem is is that
they've all been redacted and is there
any chance that we could get those I
can't be helpful nobody's ever asked me
but I have a copy of these same logs and
you're welcome to them as far as I'm
concerned except I have to tell you the
17th and 18th were Saturday and Sunday
and so therefore there wouldn't be any
these are basically logs of people who
called and left a message for me to call
them back not not necessarily everybody
I talk is what I was faced with was a
situation where the negotiators said we
think we have reached an impasse nobody
else is coming out voluntarily we looked
at the entire situation and we made the
best judgment we could I am very
satisfied that in the information for
any
to me by the FBI I was informed do you
know if Attorney General Reno was ever
advised that there was this new
development before she made her decision
I don't know because I doubt it because
it was not from our understanding of it
and the judgment was looking at what
they were doing maybe that she was not I
don't know but it wasn't any reason to
because it was not a serious plan it was
just another delaying tactic the FBI
testified before the House hearings that
their negotiations had reached them
impasse they told the Attorney General
they weren't coming out and that there
was a stalling tactic and they weren't
working on the seven seals their own
negotiators had reached an agreement
knowing that the first seal was finished
and in order to get proof of it had sent
in typewriter ribbons so that they could
get that proof in their hands and yet
the very next morning they launched the
gas and tank attack
[Music]
[Music]
the guest supplies a number of irritants
to the nostrils to the eyes to the skin
just touching to the skin can be
extremely painful you can have certain
symptoms of nausea you can have certain
symptoms of inflammation with regard to
membranes so it is extremely
uncomfortable
boot camp trainer briefly exposed to a
mild amount of cs for a few seconds the
Davidians received more than 10 times
that dosage for more than six hours CS
isn't a gas it's a chemical powder at
Waco the CS powder was dissolved in
methylene chloride a volatile chemical
used for stripping paint together they
formed an aerosol mist when sprayed
through huge steel injectors fitted onto
the tanks enclosed spaces
CS alone can cause unconsciousness and
death and can be ignited by a spark into
a fireball
when CS burns it produces hydrogen
cyanide the same gas used in prison gas
chambers did you tell the Attorney
General that infants would not die or be
harmed I told her there is no increased
sensitivity to the effects of CAS on
infants young adults and older people
I believe that using CS gas against
infants against old people with
respiratory problems there was there a
67 year old men in there and there are
young children that's torture and I can
just see those kids barfing vomiting
screaming because you can't possibly
have a gas master to fit a little kid
their reports say that gas masks don't
fit on these babies that's correct and
didn't they know that they should have
known that
they explained to me that they were
pouring fuel and that they were making
Molotov cocktails to throw it to tanks
now they never did throw Molotov
cocktails at the tanks
the conversation about that takes place
in the early morning hours six or seven
o'clock in the morning
the fire didn't start until right around
noon
[Music]
shortly after they started they began
also not only spraying it from the
Seavey's off of the booms but they
started firing ferret rounds on the
excuse of course we learned later that
we were supposed to be firing at it what
did you feel what were your emotions
well we definitely weren't believing
what we were hearing over the
loudspeakers that they were not entering
the building or this was not an attack
you know we were told they weren't going
to be shooting and yet they're firing
what amounted to mortars or rockets at
us
these ferret rounds which sounded like a
pummel water we used to you afraid yes
experts say the ferrets or barricade
penetrating cartridges that were used
are non pyrotechnic or non incendiary
they introduced CS gas in a vapour form
as the tip disintegrates but experts
also say the ferrets pack enough force
to kill someone with a direct hit fifty
ferret boxes found on the compound
grounds warned against firing the rounds
at people despite that warning agents
fired ferrets into every window of the
compound and according to the review any
movement inside was targeted
with respect to the use of military
weapons these these pieces of equipment
were unarmed as I understand it and were
contracted I mean it was like a good
rent-a-car who they were a good
rent-a-car a tank going into a building
[Applause]
at nine o'clock Attorney General Reno
left the command center at FBI
headquarters to give a speech in nearby
Baltimore from then on Waco decisions
were made by top officials of the FBI
and the Clinton administration four
minutes into the raid it escalates we
with the the 48-hour plan according to
testimony is gone we're now going to do
a massive insertion of gas into every
window did you consider staying in
Washington DC
given that escalation four minutes into
the plan during the course of the
morning the question arose whether I
should cancel the speech and the FBI did
not want me to do so because they
thought it would attract attention if I
suddenly canceled a speech it looked
like there would be an emergency
one of the most inadequate parts of the
Justice Department's report is their
failure to describe the decision-making
process at the command post I think that
is unpardonable
there is nothing in the investigation of
what was going on in the Washington
command where they had a Situation Room
which was supposedly constantly in touch
with Waco what would the communications
have been on what were the decisions
made and that we have never heard
dozens and dozens of rounds have been
fired at FBI agents the FBI in an effort
to demonstrate its extraordinary
restraint has not returned fire thus far
[Music]
almost two miles above Mount Carmel a
surveillance plane was photographing
events on the ground with a
forward-looking infrared camera commonly
called by its acronym FLIR Edward Allard
helped develop the FLIR
he's a former manager of the Defense
Department's night-vision laboratory and
holds several patents on FLIR and night
vision technology Allard explains what
happens as a tank approaches the rear of
Mount Carmel around 11:16 a.m. that's
the side the news cameras couldn't see
thermal imagery is not the same as black
and white imagery even though we're
going to see images that look like it's
a black and white television camera said
it's not this type of imagery is the
same type of imagery that we used by
armed forces in their Desert Storm the
bright spots in this particular this
particular film are spots that are hot
the graceful gray area of warm will say
and the black areas are cool they're
relatively cool they're still pretty
warm for a Texas midday but they are a
lot cooler than the rest of the
surrounding area if you look carefully
what you will see is the exhaust plume
of the tank you'll see the plume twice
when the operator steps on the gas there
it is again
and now what you will see is a shark
burst there that short burst we we feel
is a gunshot the next view is a view in
slow motion
as the vehicle approaches we see the
plume from the engine and we have the
gunshot now freeze it there please you
can see now the outline of the thing you
can clearly see the outline of the tank
there's the blade
there's the blade in front of the tank
there's the the opposite side of the
tank this hot area back here is the the
engine the DECA area and it appears that
the the shot that we're looking at is
coming off the rear deck area of the
tank
this particular one Burris lasted about
one second
and we will see shots similar to this
throughout the tape and nothing else
appears with the type of thermal
signature that we get of gunshots
did the FBI fire one shot even one shot
at the pedestrian not throughout the
entire stand up stand up
[Music]
what we're going to see here is a what
could be called an infantry tank
maneuver we notice the tank there's the
tank smashing into the building and
we'll also see gunfire multiple gunfire
on the outside of the tank to the rear
of the tank right now we're seeing a
close-up move of exactly the same thing
the important thing to notice is the gun
fire multiple rounds being fired from at
least in different positions and it's
about ten bursts and approximately two
to three seconds and according to our
calculations it indicates that both
positions of firing automatic weapons
there is nothing in nature that would
duplicate these type of thermal
signatures primarily because of the
short duration of the the bursts
themselves I think the nature could do
that and I'll remind the American people
one more time that during that entire
time those six hours and indeed those 51
days the FBI never fired one shot at the
Davidians what we're going to see now is
rapid fire in the courtyard right behind
the dining-room area and you can see the
the fire going on but it's difficult to
see in real-time
now the slow motion shows things much
more clearly
[Music]
there are two positions we look at the
feet carefully there are two positions
and apparently by the signature itself
of the the first apparently is going
from this area here into the dining room
area
[Music]
what Allard saw was verified in an
independent FLIR analysis done by infra
speck Institute for CBS 60 minutes quote
it was obvious to me on several
occasions that there was gunfire or
automatic weapons discharged seemingly
fired toward the building from the outer
perimeter and quote a second letter from
in perspective Institute states the fear
that kept sixty minutes from informing
the American people quote due to the
potentially sensitive nature of this
material and the resulting negative
repercussions to in perspective we are
choosing to decline any further comments
surrounding this taped incident and our
subsequent professional opinion
regarding its viewing end quote
in addition to noticing the gunfire in
perspex oz something else quote there
were occasions on the video that seemed
to appear as though people were entering
exiting or being run over by an armored
vehicle and quote
the whole idea here was not to hurt
people right betters correct okay I want
to focus on that building right there
and on that corner you see it's now
structurally sound we do go to the next
photo we're now looking kind of from the
front corner these are taken from the
airplanes you will see that where he is
pointing that section of the building is
gone indeed a great portion of the
building is gone there was a discussion
that there may come a point in this
where we would try to poke holes in the
building my understood that yes sir
this I don't see as a whole no I
understand that yes and I do not believe
that there were any any bodies found in
that area the closest bodies were found
a little further in each one of those
five bodies it's reported had extensive
the corner of the autopsy report
extensive body mutilation Davidian
Stephen Henry had a gunshot wound
through his chest his leg was sheared
off at the hip
[Music]
James riddle had been shot to but a
large circular portion of the right side
of his chest had also been ripped out of
his body
[Music]
riddles redshirt was dangling from his
wrist
[Music]
his nearby coat at a red lining this
gunfire occurred at 11:24 a.m.
about 10 minutes later something got
jammed near the tanks front wheel that
caused the tread to come off something
that was mostly red
the available evidence indicates that
could be James riddles body
[Music]
to attach the disabled tag to a
retriever and tow it away men had to
expose themselves to the gunfire FBI
officials said was coming from the
Davidians this is one of these things
mr. chairman that nags actually damage
to the tanks common sense tells me would
be reflected in the in the damage report
almost two months ago we requested it
over two years have been elapsed since
this occurred surely the damage report
had been compiled I realize the wheels
of bureaucracy turn awfully slowly in
this town but after two years I'll be
glad to look into it and see see what we
can produce
[Music]
[Music]
as the gassing continued the women and
children went to the safest place left
inside Mount Carmel the kitchen storage
room a first floor steel reinforced
concrete room
a former vault at the bottom of the
square wooden Tower
women children ended up going in there
and because they didn't have gas masks
and stuff they were covering themselves
with wet blankets and wet towels and
things like that we knew that that cot
that protection was in there we believe
we finally were able to make entering
that compound and were able to insert
gas inside that protective area
he actually drove right through the
middle of the building into the kitchen
area basically at point-blank range
fired gas into the concrete room where
the women and children work in a
cul-de-sac like that where there was no
ventilation they must have been gone
through front yeah yeah there's no
windows no no back door or anything we
put massive gas in there their gas masks
by that time had to be had to be failing
they would be coughing choking they
would probably be unconscious some of
that would probably be dead some would
be basically inert they may still be
alive they may still be breathing but
they're not going to be doing anything
in planning very large actions of this
sort like the going in at the building
you do a lot of planning like if this
happens then this will do this and if
this happens it will do this correct yes
sir now didn't you consider or did you
consider that fire might well occur in
this instance and if it does we do this
yes sir we did by noon Mount Carmel was
a tinderbox a heavy layer of dried CS
dust coated everything inside
large amounts of kerosene and Coleman
fuel from containers crushed by armored
vehicles saturated the floor vapors from
methylene chloride kerosene and Coleman
gas fill the air huge holes ripped open
by the tanks let the 25 mile per hour
Waco wind blow completely through about
Carmen
[Music]
when the governmental agency made a
decision to breach holes into the
building they set up a configuration of
a pot-bellied stove you wanted to burn
slow you closed off the vents if you
wanted to burn fast you open it up well
they made a configuration in that
building that was consistent to a
pot-bellied stove any type of fire that
would start even if there was no CS gas
if there was no flammable liquids
there's nothing just but ordinary
combustible materials once you have a
fire incipient in the building like that
it's going to grow to a fast rapid
propagation because of the venting
[Music]
at this front corner a combat
engineering vehicle has just made its
last injection of CS that small black
dot is the nozzle tip ice-cold from the
carbon dioxide propellant used to force
the methylene chloride CS mixture into
the building less than a minute later
the first of three separate fires that
started in three separate locations
within a three minute period began here
on the second floor while the fresh
mixture is at its most volatile as a
fine mist once ignited both the CSM and
methylene chloride will become involved
with the fire and add to the fire those
sources well tend to produce a fireball
or a flash fire
to Branch Davidian survivors say they
saw fireballs
shortly after fresh CS was injected at
this corner the FLIR shows a second tank
that's pulling away as the corner comes
into view a fire is burning there
[Music]
David Thibodeau said he was here and saw
a fireball that ran the front length of
Mount Carmel possibly igniting another
fire here the kitchen dining room area
right next to the concrete room where
the women and children had been gassed
earlier
about a minute after the front fireball
tibideaux saw another armored vehicle
drives up to the rear of the crushed
gymnasium and also pulls away a few
seconds later survivor derrick Lovelock
says a fireball raced from the rear
about carmel to the front igniting
everything in its path
at this point the back of the gym was
thoroughly destroyed and it greatly
disturbed me at that point I'd lost all
hope at 12 o'clock someone yelled from
the upstairs that there was a fire the
front I could not get to the front
because of what the tanks had come in
the stairwell that I that was closest to
the front so I went to the stairwell in
the back because I'm thinking the kids
thinking serenity see Jones I was
thinking of Isaiah and Joseph some of
these kids that I've come to know and
love
to get up there there was a catwalk that
was leading over the rafters of the
church area I walked to the front I got
to a blanket
I opened the blanket up and a wall of
flame shoots down the hallway in front
of my face down to the other end of the
building it was the loudest sound I've
ever heard in my life I'm a drummer and
it was very it was incredibly loud I
could not hear anything else other than
this flame well do you know personally
how the fire started
no the place is beginning to feel a
black smoke and you mean Scott was stood
there by the stairs and there was this
kind of a ball of fire yeah the
tremendous heat which caused us to jump
back out of the way came from across he
came if he came from the gym area across
this way it's believed the fireball
derrick Lovelock said he saw started
here with his flash
that flash was so bright that the
operator of the FLIR thought it was so
significant that he decided to fix his
cursor in that area to remind him or
other people looking at the tape that
there was a very significant flash in
the window when we see it in slow motion
and we see the flash it appears to be a
single flash but it is not a single
flash it's actually a two flashes we got
a primary flash in the secondary flash
and both of these flashes lasts about
1/2 second each and there they're most
likely detonations inside the building
itself now if someone you just saw this
flash here that is a momentary event in
my opinion that's a reflection due to
sunlight reflecting off some object in
that debris sunlight reflections would
show up as a flash on regular film which
records light but reflections don't
generate enough heat say specialists
like Gaillard to create a flash on
infrared
introspection analysts notice the same
flash quote a portion of the video
showed a flash or pyrotechnic explosion
in one portion of one of the buildings
and quote the FBI made it clear from the
beginning it used nothing that could
have started a fire non pyrotechnic
delivery systems were utilized to insert
CS gas pyrotechnic devices actually
burnt and as they do tear gas is
dispersed this pyrotechnic projectile is
one of two found in the rubble of Mount
Carmel it's a 40 millimeter military
device that's fired from a handheld
grenade launcher this one was found here
near the corner of Mount Carmel where
the first fire started the other was
found here in the kitchen dining room
area
[Music]
20 seconds after the to gymnasium
flashes still more automatic gunfire can
be seen coming from the field to the
left of the demolition tank we counted
the number of gun flashes and in this
particular case we got six flashes in
one second which indicates it's a
rapid-fire weapon sometime
and we also can see from the tapes that
the fire is going in this direction
towards the gymnasium where we saw the
flash in the window
[Music]
[Music]
you
[Music]
is when the fireman fire did start and
the fire trucks did arrive I didn't let
them in I held him at the checkpoint
because I didn't want the fireman to
drive into gunfire I just wasn't going
to permit it and it was a it's a
terrible thing a very terrible decision
to have to make but I didn't it didn't
hesitate wasn't that it took me that two
seconds to make it but did we held the
fire trucks so that was our fire planet
most of the remaining davidians were
concentrated here in the kitchen dining
room area
it was their only way out except for one
thing
two men outside were firing machine guns
at them
[Music]
in the 51 days the FBI was involved they
did not fire a single shot first
that would mean quite certainly that 27
of the people who died in the compound I
think the autopsy report showed 27 I may
be off by one or two who died of bullets
those were self-inflicted or inflicted
by other members within the compound
[Music]
these are embers that are flying off the
building but you can see up in here
that this is rapid gunfire when we
analyze the fate we found out that this
there's two people there in this area
here and they're firing for about thirty
seconds in this area right here where we
have the burning dining-room area and
it's almost continuous gunfire and
towards the end of the the this
particular section we find out that the
the people doing the shooting are
actually retreating away from the fire
and shooting as they're retreating
the machine-gunning of the Davidians
trapped in the burning kitchen dining
room was not only visible to
congressional investigators it was even
visible to home viewers so is the
gunfire behind the tank smashing into
the rear of the gymnasium
neither was mentioned despite the fact
the FLIR tape shown to the Joint
Committee had far better clarity than
the copy used in this film
[Music]
they came a point in my rolling on the
floor and trying to protect himself from
the heat and being in the pitch-black
not able to see that the voices of those
behind me screaming kinda got through to
me
[Music]
I recognized could identify the voices
and kind of galvanized me to just leap
to my feet and jump what we'll dive
headfirst in the general direction of
where I figured the hole was when I
stood up the skin was rolling off my
hands my coat was all melted on my back
and smoking yeah I looked back over my
shoulder and the whole life just come
out with a mass of flames and the first
thought that came to me was I'm the only
one
[Music]
now with that
late devonian coming out thank you fired
was just going on and on we realize
nobody came out thinking maybe my
husband didn't get up and my children
got out the horrible horrible way to die
I don't I try not to think about it
because I keep thinking at some point
they felt all that heat I kept thinking
the people in the square they were the
ones who maybe they dig probably killed
cooked to death I think it was to be
this tragedy to show what kind of people
we have as a government as soon as the
Branch Davidian star David flag had
fluttered to the ground they ran the ATF
flag up on that flagpole as a symbol of
a military conquest because the whole
world saw this is symbol that the battle
was over
I love this country I love the flag I
love saying the Pledge of Allegiance
I still cry at the national anthem I
hope not only law enforcement but I hope
everyone does that the FBI is not as
we've been labeled for the past two
years anti religious rights or anti
personal rights we have plenty of
freedoms in this country which I love we
have the freedom to stockpile weapons
I know I'm a Christian I like practicing
my Christian beliefs I know I'm going to
heaven when I die with my kids I teach
in charge of the nursery used to do
Sunday school youth group leader if
someone tries to stop me from doing that
obviously I'm going to be upset but that
does not give me the right to go kill
someone go to my house using my children
as shields and say I'm not coming out
I've broken the law I'm not coming out
until God tells me to that is wrong
the hearings have been on for nine days
or so and I'm gonna say this as nicely
as I can because some couple people said
what can we learn from this in nine days
I can't learn to be a legislator in nine
days
y'all can't learn to be law enforcement
officers Byron Floyd Clark
Jeff Jamar dick Rogers like him or not
or like what we do for a living or not
they've been law enforcement officers
some of them longer than I've been alive
and with that comes a lot of experience
what I'm saying is you have to trust the
people in charge at the time I'm low on
the food chain so I'm not and in by what
they did because I I do what I'm told as
long as it's legal and moral my god
torturing babies and saying it's part of
their job and saying it's okay because
their parents were bad our whole society
is structured around the notion that if
parents are bad we protect the children
even against the parents in this case
the FBI and the government took the
position why not only with him do we not
protect the children we use it as an
instrument to try to get their parents
to do some will torture them so their
parents
we'll do right Oh God where did they
think that up we thought that their
instincts the motherly instincts would
would take place and that they would
want their children out of that
environment it appears they don't care
that much about their children which is
unfortunate the backward vote corpse of
this eight-year-old girl shows what
cyanide does to the human body it makes
the muscles contract so violently that
they can actually break bones
if one reviews the various use of
cyanide and is a method of putting
prisoners to death note that these
people are strapped in their chairs very
heavily and that's not to prevent them
from escaping the gas ask to prevent the
individuals watching the execution
observing the effects of cyanide has on
the muscles of individual
[Music]
it's part of the evidence response team
I was one of the primary photographers
that had to photograph the evidence
before it was recovered and as it was
being recovered and placed into the
appropriate banks I photographed the
process David Koresh's living quarters
and I also photographed all of the
bodies from what has termed the bunker
having been in the position to walk
touch feel hold photograph observe a
great majority of the bodies in Waco I'm
left with an overall disturbing out of
haunting opinion that many of the people
in the residence were homicide victims
one of the FBI officials tell doctor
pavani that they did not want us there
because they want to do it themselves
the FBI lab was extremely in a hurry to
get the evidence from us and they took
us several weeks to go through literally
thousands of rounds and all the bullets
bullet cartridges fragments of grenades
they were all turned over to the FBI lab
no independent examination of any of
that evidence has been allowed including
the illegal firearms the FBI says were
found in the rubble is that a weapon
illegal that you found at the compound
make a 47 type rifle that has been
converted to permit full automatic
making in Italy yes sir thank you
I was panning the whole site and one of
the Rangers came up behind me while I
was still taping and hit me on the
shoulder and said you can't be doing
that and so I said okay
that's fine no problem and then he asked
for the tape and I said well I'm
shooting for dr. Kewanee and I'm not
gonna give you the tape until he says
it's okay
finally we found dr. Pierre wanna talk
to him and he agreed that it was okay
for me to give them the tape so I did
they promised us that all they want to
do is review it and they would give it
back to us the next day and they didn't
they told us that they had misplaced it
at one time they told us that I have it
in my briefcase and I'll give it to you
in fact we said that we're gonna delay
giving the reports until you give and
take back and of course they said sure
would give it a day back next time we
come to your office we in fact suggested
we would go to Waco and collect the tape
from them and they said no it's San
Antonio office and and it won at a
certain point along this discussion they
finally said the tape is lost we can't
give it to you at this point is there
any doubt in your mind or the Justice
Department's mind that the fire was set
by the cult members I have absolutely no
doubt at all that the cult members said
it based on all the information that has
been furnished to me the survivors that
came out their clothes smelled of
accelerants they smelled of diesel fuel
they smelled of lantern fuel they
spelled of lighter fluid and the
laboratory later came back and confirmed
that they had done it I would like to
know why key information as to how some
of this contamination occurred was
omitted from the reports specifically
those survivors who exited the south
side of the building they had to walk
through an area that was contaminated by
fuel from large tanks spilled by the
government tank operations the thing
that really concerns me is why the
building was so totally destroyed
afterwards after the fire was was out
there was no firefighting whatsoever
attempted and in
I'm seen and it was a crime scene was
totally absolutely destroyed I've seen
this happen before
did you see the FBI changing the crime
scene in any way
yes sir though I said earlier and didn't
get to finish the answer they were
moving the vehicles which destroyed
valuable trajectory evidence in the end
it turned out it wasn't didn't matter
because leave but it didn't seem to be
standard operating procedure you don't
you don't consider that standard
operating procedure certainly not in any
crime scene either they don't know we
were commissioned early on in this as
Deputy United States Marshals to carry a
special Commission so that we could
prosecute federally anyone that lied to
us and we feel real comfortable in
captain burns does that we were lied to
let me be clear this investigation has
not uncovered any evidence of political
corruption or influences we have not
found any event there was no conspiracy
to kill Branch Davidians the record of
the Waco incident documents mistakes but
the record from Waco does not evidence
however is any improper motive or intent
on the part of law enforcement David
Koresh and the Davidians set fire to
themselves and committed suicide the
government did not do that
that's assertion to me that the median
that the government has made a kind of
blanket declaration that the Branch
Davidians committed quote mass suicide
to equate it to a Jonestown Guyana
suicide is the most irresponsible
statement that can be attributed to
anything having to do with the Waco
incident and I find that very offending
to me
offensive to the memory of the Davidians
and everyone else involved in this
tragedy to wrap it up in a nice clean
well it was just a mass suicide end of
story
because it was far from what the people
believed that what happened is that God
was going to judge either the world or
them if it judged the world they would
survive if it judged them they would
promptly be in heaven as one of them
afterwards said Livingston Fagan who
lost a wife in the fire and his mother
in the fire he said those of our people
who died are highly honored in heaven
and so we should not worry about them
the thought was that the army of Babylon
would kill them as perhaps it ultimately
did the way things were supposed to
happen in this country is when someone
suspected of a crime even if it's child
abuse even if it's a capital murder we
give them a trial a jury finds them
guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before
they go to sentencing then a jury or a
judge sentences them and an appeals
court makes sure the trial couldn't was
conducted with due process and then and
only then did we kill them we don't kill
them first like happened in Waco on
April the 19th
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you