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1
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One, two, one, two, one.
2
00:00:04,068 --> 00:00:06,695
THE CHILDREN OF SALO
- There you go, better?
3
00:00:08,906 --> 00:00:10,950
INTERVIEWS WITH FOUR FILMMAKERS
- My ears!
4
00:00:11,825 --> 00:00:13,869
Can you hear?
- I can hear, but...
5
00:00:15,246 --> 00:00:16,830
D0 you have five minutes?
6
00:00:18,082 --> 00:00:18,999
Shall we start?
7
00:00:19,625 --> 00:00:25,172
S0, your first impression of Salo,
your earliest memories.
8
00:00:25,589 --> 00:00:28,259
My earliest memories, well
I had heard about it from my father.
9
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He had seen...
10
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,849
I wasn't living in France at the time,
and he had sent letters saying:
11
00:00:35,933 --> 00:00:39,144
"I saw a powerful film called Salo
he explained a little what it was about.
12
00:00:39,270 --> 00:00:42,606
And then, a bit later,
13
00:00:44,108 --> 00:00:47,653
then I was in France,
and later even, five years later,
14
00:00:49,113 --> 00:00:52,032
I turned 18, and my mum was the one
who brought me to see Salo.
15
00:00:52,241 --> 00:00:56,870
She saw it as a useful movie
that she had to show her kids
16
00:00:57,079 --> 00:01:01,208
and discuss it with them,
so my mum and I went to see Salo.
17
00:01:01,292 --> 00:01:03,961
It was in the Latin Quarter.
18
00:01:05,379 --> 00:01:06,755
You see...
19
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,886
The film is what it is.
it's raw, it's powerful.
20
00:01:13,512 --> 00:01:16,390
I can't remember what my mum and I
spoke about afterwards, but...
21
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,143
it's definitely the most...
22
00:01:20,978 --> 00:01:24,356
it's hard to watch, so you don't need
to watch it again for a long time.
23
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,734
I think I only saw it again
ten years later,
24
00:01:27,318 --> 00:01:30,821
on video tape, but ten years later
it was like I had seen it the day before,
25
00:01:30,946 --> 00:01:33,073
that's how memorable it was.
26
00:01:33,824 --> 00:01:38,370
I saw it when it came out,
in '75, '76, at La Pagode.
27
00:01:40,664 --> 00:01:44,877
I'm not anxious
when I go to the movies, I feel like...
28
00:01:46,211 --> 00:01:49,715
I don't scare easily.
I'm a very fearful person normally, but...
29
00:01:50,966 --> 00:01:54,928
for me, being a spectator
is connecting with a film.
30
00:01:55,554 --> 00:01:57,389
S0 I...
31
00:02:00,017 --> 00:02:03,687
I watched the film intently,
32
00:02:07,232 --> 00:02:08,400
unreserved,
33
00:02:08,776 --> 00:02:11,362
and I think it happened...
34
00:02:13,197 --> 00:02:17,201
just before the Circle of Shit,
with the nails in the polenta.
35
00:02:17,284 --> 00:02:19,828
I started feeling very uneasy,
36
00:02:20,704 --> 00:02:24,833
and I didn't realise,
because I had never fainted before,
37
00:02:24,917 --> 00:02:27,086
and never have again,
but I fainted,
38
00:02:28,379 --> 00:02:31,674
during the Circle of Shit,
and I left.
39
00:02:34,551 --> 00:02:37,763
I know I went to the toilet,
I went outside.
40
00:02:38,555 --> 00:02:41,767
I came back
when I felt better,
41
00:02:43,268 --> 00:02:44,436
and I stayed until the end,
42
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,816
but there was a whole chunk of the film
that I hadn't seen.
43
00:02:49,942 --> 00:02:54,321
I was so ashamed,
I felt...
44
00:02:55,114 --> 00:02:57,908
ejected from the film,
45
00:02:58,742 --> 00:03:03,956
and I was ashamed,
as if I hadn't been a loyal spectator,
46
00:03:04,790 --> 00:03:07,835
or I hadn't been
a trusting spectator,
47
00:03:08,752 --> 00:03:10,629
and that...
48
00:03:12,381 --> 00:03:15,843
I had rejected something
that had been offered to me,
49
00:03:15,926 --> 00:03:18,470
so I felt terribly ashamed.
50
00:03:20,681 --> 00:03:23,517
I actually bought the video tape,
51
00:03:24,435 --> 00:03:28,522
and I held onto it for a long time,
and just put it in a corner,
52
00:03:29,648 --> 00:03:31,316
and...
53
00:03:31,650 --> 00:03:36,572
I just put off watching it, because
I knew it wasn't going to be an easy watch.
54
00:03:37,489 --> 00:03:39,825
Then, one night,
I just decided to watch it,
55
00:03:40,242 --> 00:03:41,368
alone.
56
00:03:43,370 --> 00:03:46,457
And indeed, it wasn't light-hearted.
57
00:03:46,623 --> 00:03:47,875
I think that...
58
00:03:47,958 --> 00:03:52,713
What I expected to happen, happened,
so I think there was...
59
00:03:54,465 --> 00:04:00,262
a pre-Salo and a post-Salo,
a pre-viewing and a post-viewing,
60
00:04:02,431 --> 00:04:07,102
which has nothing to do with
the cinematography, but with the storyline.
61
00:04:07,853 --> 00:04:14,485
What I think is true,
but perhaps a bit simplified,
62
00:04:15,110 --> 00:04:16,820
is that film is the art
of the 20th century,
63
00:04:18,697 --> 00:04:22,701
that the tragedies of World War ll
were the worst of the century,
64
00:04:22,785 --> 00:04:24,244
it's the film of the century.
65
00:04:24,328 --> 00:04:27,206
I think there's something about
cinema history that stops here,
66
00:04:27,289 --> 00:04:28,207
that brings us here.
67
00:04:28,957 --> 00:04:30,334
Then, something else begins.
68
00:04:31,126 --> 00:04:33,045
It isn't the biggest film
in cinema history,
69
00:04:33,128 --> 00:04:34,755
but possibly the most important one.
70
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:41,678
There's a strong link between
cinema history
71
00:04:41,762 --> 00:04:45,098
and... the history of the war,
72
00:04:45,182 --> 00:04:47,476
and the story of 20th century
73
00:04:47,601 --> 00:04:50,729
that link happens in '75
with this film.
74
00:04:50,896 --> 00:04:53,899
I saw this film
just before working on Romance.
75
00:04:56,777 --> 00:05:01,198
I was in shook, and thought
it was horrendous.
76
00:05:01,281 --> 00:05:05,244
It wasn't the right time
for me to see it.
77
00:05:05,661 --> 00:05:09,998
For example, with the topics
of censorship and violence
78
00:05:10,082 --> 00:05:12,417
and the effects on people,
79
00:05:12,501 --> 00:05:14,795
I think it's an excessively violent film
80
00:05:15,003 --> 00:05:20,050
and you have to be ready to see it,
you have to take the initiative.
81
00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:23,720
But I also think that
it may be the only film in the world
82
00:05:24,179 --> 00:05:29,434
that has... and I think this is why
it is one of the best films in the world,
83
00:05:30,018 --> 00:05:34,439
that needs to exist, even if
you aren't able to watch it.
84
00:05:34,648 --> 00:05:36,275
Because not everyone
is able to watch it.
85
00:05:37,526 --> 00:05:39,194
Not because of the film itself,
86
00:05:39,278 --> 00:05:43,574
but because it may not be
the right time in a person's life
87
00:05:43,699 --> 00:05:45,909
to see it, it has to be seen
at a specific time,
88
00:05:46,159 --> 00:05:47,870
when one is strong enough.
89
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,037
But it has to exist.
90
00:05:49,204 --> 00:05:51,707
And I really do want to see it again.
91
00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:57,504
But when I do,
it will be the only thing in my life
92
00:05:57,629 --> 00:05:59,590
that I will be doing at that time:
seeing it.
93
00:05:59,923 --> 00:06:02,384
Once you've seen it
for the first time,
94
00:06:02,467 --> 00:06:03,635
you know what to expect,
95
00:06:03,719 --> 00:06:06,972
so you don't react in the same way.
96
00:06:07,055 --> 00:06:09,600
People have talked so much
about Salo
97
00:06:09,683 --> 00:06:11,226
that most people who watch it
98
00:06:11,518 --> 00:06:15,606
already know that there is
a Circle of Sex, a Circle of Shit,
99
00:06:15,689 --> 00:06:18,400
a Circle of Blood,
that there will be torture scenes.
100
00:06:18,567 --> 00:06:21,778
S0 people go and see it
when they are ready.
101
00:06:22,613 --> 00:06:26,241
But I think it's more interesting
if you see it unprepared
102
00:06:26,325 --> 00:06:28,827
without knowing anything about it
and seeing it for the first time.
103
00:06:28,911 --> 00:06:30,454
When I saw it again recently,
104
00:06:31,955 --> 00:06:35,167
I felt as if the film hadn't aged,
105
00:06:35,250 --> 00:06:39,379
it's still the most radical film
about violence
106
00:06:40,672 --> 00:06:44,593
inflicted on humans that was made
over the last few decades.
107
00:06:44,968 --> 00:06:48,931
This year, when the film was screened
once again at Reflet Medicis,
108
00:06:50,182 --> 00:06:52,976
I didn't leave, I saw the whole film,
I watched it twice,
109
00:06:53,060 --> 00:06:54,686
two nights in a row.
110
00:06:58,023 --> 00:07:01,818
But I do feel very powerless,
watching this film,
111
00:07:03,028 --> 00:07:04,196
very...
112
00:07:08,617 --> 00:07:10,327
it's a very physical film
113
00:07:11,495 --> 00:07:15,666
and while I try to hold onto
thoughts and contemplation,
114
00:07:18,961 --> 00:07:22,172
everything I feel for Pasolini,
115
00:07:23,548 --> 00:07:24,841
the trust,
116
00:07:27,094 --> 00:07:32,683
and despite everything in the film,
it's as if I, too,
117
00:07:33,141 --> 00:07:36,019
was offered polenta
with nails in it.
118
00:07:36,103 --> 00:07:40,315
I think that the most memorable
and terrifying scenes,
119
00:07:40,399 --> 00:07:43,735
and I mean literally terrifying,
120
00:07:43,819 --> 00:07:47,239
like the terror
that was experienced at the time,
121
00:07:47,447 --> 00:07:48,991
were the reading scenes,
122
00:07:50,117 --> 00:07:51,702
which I find absolutely...
123
00:07:52,995 --> 00:07:55,122
I can't really remember
how they were done,
124
00:07:55,247 --> 00:07:59,167
I think they might even
be badly done,
125
00:07:59,251 --> 00:08:00,669
but those reading scenes,
126
00:08:02,546 --> 00:08:04,923
I find them incredible,
127
00:08:05,048 --> 00:08:07,217
and almost sadistic.
128
00:08:10,470 --> 00:08:12,681
They are completely terrifying,
129
00:08:12,764 --> 00:08:14,224
even more so than...
130
00:08:14,391 --> 00:08:17,936
but it's a contrast, the film
was very well put together,
131
00:08:18,228 --> 00:08:21,023
at least from what I remember,
because I don't remember that aspect.
132
00:08:22,858 --> 00:08:26,570
It's a contrast with the violent
and disgusting scenes,
133
00:08:26,653 --> 00:08:28,530
the different Circles.
134
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,784
But that's what I found
most memorable.
135
00:08:33,326 --> 00:08:36,455
It's obviously the scene
in which we're on both sides.
136
00:08:36,830 --> 00:08:42,753
Where the young man
who was a hostage
137
00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:44,963
and goes over to the abductors' side,
138
00:08:45,047 --> 00:08:48,842
and revels in seeing
what's happening to him,
139
00:08:48,925 --> 00:08:54,389
because it takes two in torture,
the torturer and the victim.
140
00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:59,519
You do to others
what you symbolically do to yourself.
141
00:08:59,686 --> 00:09:03,106
They were horrific murders
and unthinkable cruelty.
142
00:09:03,190 --> 00:09:07,694
How can people take it?
143
00:09:07,861 --> 00:09:12,407
We look at ourselves and wonder
how we would react if it were done to us,
144
00:09:12,491 --> 00:09:14,326
except we're the ones doing it.
145
00:09:14,409 --> 00:09:19,498
There has never been
a scene like that.
146
00:09:19,664 --> 00:09:21,708
There has never been a scene
that has explained
147
00:09:23,293 --> 00:09:26,004
sadism, masochism, cruelty,
148
00:09:26,129 --> 00:09:28,924
and the enjoyment of cruelty
in that way.
149
00:09:29,674 --> 00:09:32,803
Visually, the film is striking,
150
00:09:32,886 --> 00:09:36,431
because the atmosphere of the film
is very powerful from start to finish.
151
00:09:36,515 --> 00:09:40,018
But visually, there is a visual element
at the end of the film
152
00:09:40,102 --> 00:09:41,186
that is memorable,
153
00:09:41,269 --> 00:09:44,564
which is the torture scenes
that are seen through binoculars.
154
00:09:46,817 --> 00:09:49,736
Because the edge of the screen
is rounded,
155
00:09:50,237 --> 00:09:52,906
lt feels like more of a mental picture
than the rest of the film
156
00:09:53,031 --> 00:09:59,287
and because of that,
it's what stays stuck in my head
157
00:09:59,371 --> 00:10:03,250
because of
its particular cinematography.
158
00:10:05,877 --> 00:10:07,587
The first real utterance
159
00:10:07,671 --> 00:10:11,842
after the characters,
those four twisted guys,
160
00:10:11,925 --> 00:10:13,885
say "Your Excellence, President", etc,
161
00:10:14,136 --> 00:10:20,100
I think someone signs a book in which
there are laws to abide by in the castle,
162
00:10:20,183 --> 00:10:24,187
and they say: "All things are good
when taken to excess".
163
00:10:24,479 --> 00:10:27,023
I don't know where that's from,
but it reflects the film quite well,
164
00:10:27,107 --> 00:10:31,278
because Pasolini
took this film to the extreme.
165
00:10:31,570 --> 00:10:35,866
I don't think he could have done it
any other way.
166
00:10:37,284 --> 00:10:42,664
This is the type of film where
you can't decide that you'll remember
167
00:10:43,123 --> 00:10:44,624
something more than something else.
168
00:10:45,041 --> 00:10:48,253
I think it's a film
that's seen as an entity,
169
00:10:48,670 --> 00:10:50,172
and that's it.
170
00:10:51,006 --> 00:10:57,012
Those who have seen the movie
can talk about the real struggle
171
00:10:57,095 --> 00:10:59,139
to bear the Circle of Shit,
172
00:10:59,222 --> 00:11:02,225
more so than the executions
at the end of the film,
173
00:11:02,309 --> 00:11:03,977
which is very interesting to me.
174
00:11:05,645 --> 00:11:10,108
I still wonder why I fainted
at that point in the movie
175
00:11:10,192 --> 00:11:15,697
as opposed to the executions that are seen
through windows and binoculars,
176
00:11:16,656 --> 00:11:19,159
how that can be more bearable.
177
00:11:19,951 --> 00:11:21,745
That's all I really remember,
178
00:11:23,663 --> 00:11:24,956
the idea...
179
00:11:29,044 --> 00:11:31,755
of submission,
of a body being surrendered.
180
00:11:34,674 --> 00:11:36,843
What it did to me, was...
181
00:11:37,844 --> 00:11:40,764
feeling the effects 0f fascism,
182
00:11:40,972 --> 00:11:44,643
whereas before, in history classes
or watching films,
183
00:11:44,809 --> 00:11:50,732
fantastic documentaries,
amazing testimonials,
184
00:11:52,359 --> 00:11:56,321
I knew about it,
I understood it,
185
00:11:57,864 --> 00:12:03,411
and in this case,
you feel it,
186
00:12:03,495 --> 00:12:07,040
but that's because this film
focuses on fascination
187
00:12:07,123 --> 00:12:08,750
and not just accusation.
188
00:12:09,167 --> 00:12:14,172
S0 it's a film
that really does something,
189
00:12:14,256 --> 00:12:16,466
it isn't just descriptive,
it really does something.
190
00:12:17,008 --> 00:12:20,345
S0 we realise the extent
191
00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:29,688
of both the fragility and power
of the brain,
192
00:12:29,771 --> 00:12:31,606
of how rapidly you can go
from one to the other,
193
00:12:32,148 --> 00:12:36,611
of how easy it would be to be
with the fascists and not the victims,
194
00:12:36,695 --> 00:12:41,533
of how much you always need to think
195
00:12:42,492 --> 00:12:44,077
in order to escape it.
196
00:12:44,411 --> 00:12:48,790
And that's how I felt
from the beginning.
197
00:12:48,915 --> 00:12:52,502
I think that everyone should get to
a point in their life
198
00:12:52,752 --> 00:12:54,921
where they are able to watch it.
199
00:12:55,922 --> 00:13:00,135
If you are only able to watch
reality shows your whole life,
200
00:13:00,927 --> 00:13:05,348
or feel-good movies, such as
Gone with the Wind, something like that,
201
00:13:05,974 --> 00:13:10,103
it means that you missed the important
things, you didn't live properly.
202
00:13:10,854 --> 00:13:12,981
You just ran from life.
203
00:13:13,315 --> 00:13:17,861
S0 everyone should be able to watch it
at some point in their life,
204
00:13:17,944 --> 00:13:19,654
or they didn't have a life.
205
00:13:19,988 --> 00:13:20,989
Easy.
206
00:13:22,157 --> 00:13:25,535
It's also a film
that can describe, in a way,
207
00:13:25,744 --> 00:13:29,831
the atmosphere in concentration camps
during World War ll
208
00:13:29,914 --> 00:13:32,042
while films
that actually describe life there
209
00:13:32,125 --> 00:13:38,131
often leave out the torture
and degradation inflicted on others.
210
00:13:43,595 --> 00:13:46,973
It's reassuring knowing that
this film was made
211
00:13:47,349 --> 00:13:48,433
and still exists today,
212
00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:53,146
because it means we can talk about things,
nothing is taboo that we can't talk about...
213
00:13:55,065 --> 00:13:57,067
You know.
214
00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:02,822
There's hope for filmmakers
that created films later on,
215
00:14:02,906 --> 00:14:05,992
because you think that even though
you can't exactly replicate this film,
216
00:14:06,159 --> 00:14:09,913
it means that there is freedom
of expression in the film industry.
217
00:14:11,164 --> 00:14:13,917
I think that when the film came out,
it was...
218
00:14:17,212 --> 00:14:19,506
a bit buried under tragedy,
219
00:14:21,007 --> 00:14:22,675
the death of Pasolini,
220
00:14:24,677 --> 00:14:27,097
and perhaps today
it can be seen in a better light,
221
00:14:29,057 --> 00:14:34,312
it's more powerful because
there aren't any events surrounding it.
222
00:14:34,562 --> 00:14:35,480
Maybe.
223
00:14:35,897 --> 00:14:37,190
It's educational,
224
00:14:37,273 --> 00:14:40,693
and I think it needs to be seen
at a young age
225
00:14:41,611 --> 00:14:43,696
to people who are learning
about the 20th century.
226
00:14:44,531 --> 00:14:49,327
They say a picture is worth
a thousand words, and in this case,
227
00:14:50,286 --> 00:14:55,250
it's true, but not when it comes to
the violent images,
228
00:14:55,333 --> 00:15:01,423
but really on the structure of the film,
on its slowness.
229
00:15:03,091 --> 00:15:05,844
The woman who tells the stories,
the people who listen,
230
00:15:05,927 --> 00:15:07,887
their facial expressions
say a lot.
231
00:15:07,971 --> 00:15:10,098
S0 it's the way it was made.
232
00:15:11,891 --> 00:15:15,186
That's why I think
it needs to be watched alone,
233
00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:17,730
whether it's a video tape
or at the cinema, it doesn't matter.
234
00:15:18,189 --> 00:15:20,275
But it has to be watched alone,
because...
235
00:15:21,359 --> 00:15:23,528
it's easy not to see it,
236
00:15:24,195 --> 00:15:26,823
if someone else is there,
because you think,
237
00:15:27,532 --> 00:15:30,743
I don't want to see this, I don't want
to talk about this, what will I see?
238
00:15:30,827 --> 00:15:34,497
L'll see a tongue being ripped out,
I'll see people eating shit,
239
00:15:34,581 --> 00:15:36,624
I'll see violent things,
disgusting things.
240
00:15:36,708 --> 00:15:39,669
But that's not what's important,
it's a whole other level.
241
00:15:41,463 --> 00:15:43,965
When you're alone,
you experience that other level.
242
00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:48,094
S0 I see the educational aspect
of the film.
243
00:15:48,178 --> 00:15:52,015
It needs to be shown
to students early on,
244
00:15:52,348 --> 00:15:54,350
to high school kids,
245
00:15:54,517 --> 00:15:56,936
they need to watch the film
alone for two hours,
246
00:15:57,020 --> 00:15:59,189
and I don't think there's a need
to speak to them about it.
247
00:15:59,314 --> 00:16:01,566
It's all about action.
248
00:16:02,025 --> 00:16:05,236
L think people need to watch Salo
when they feel like it.
249
00:16:05,361 --> 00:16:09,491
It's good that it's available
for people to watch
250
00:16:09,574 --> 00:16:13,161
either on video tape, on TV,
on DVD, whatever they want.
251
00:16:15,580 --> 00:16:21,044
I think that it's useless
in the hands of a child.
252
00:16:21,127 --> 00:16:26,216
I thought I was mature enough
to watch it at age 18.
253
00:16:26,758 --> 00:16:32,889
I'm not sure whether a 10 year old kid
would be able to connect with it
254
00:16:34,182 --> 00:16:37,268
or if it would benefit them at age 10,
I don't think it would.
255
00:16:38,228 --> 00:16:42,982
There's pre-Salo and post-Salo,
it's a cornerstone
256
00:16:43,233 --> 00:16:47,487
not only of international cinema
257
00:16:47,570 --> 00:16:52,325
but of a unique vision
that a film can offer
258
00:16:52,408 --> 00:16:54,827
as opposed to literature,
for example.
259
00:16:54,953 --> 00:16:58,248
That's why it's an important film,
the story that Salo tells,
260
00:16:58,331 --> 00:17:01,084
literature cannot tell
in the same way.
261
00:17:01,417 --> 00:17:03,545
That is why it had never been told.
262
00:17:04,837 --> 00:17:05,880
I think.
263
00:17:07,340 --> 00:17:09,551
It's a very harsh realisation,
264
00:17:09,968 --> 00:17:14,097
it's incredible, because we are always
trying not to be ourselves.
265
00:17:14,305 --> 00:17:19,435
All of a sudden, you look in the mirror
and it's a slap in the face.
266
00:17:20,562 --> 00:17:24,691
S0 I think it's one of the most
beautiful films in the world.
267
00:17:27,527 --> 00:17:31,197
"Beautiful" isn't the right word,
it's big,
268
00:17:33,366 --> 00:17:34,617
it isn't the same thing.
269
00:17:35,285 --> 00:17:36,828
In an ideal world,
270
00:17:39,414 --> 00:17:42,667
we need to go to the cinema...
271
00:17:43,835 --> 00:17:46,004
not to look for...
272
00:17:50,967 --> 00:17:52,885
only...
273
00:17:55,388 --> 00:18:01,352
drama, feel-good films,
274
00:18:04,397 --> 00:18:07,650
exciting violence,
275
00:18:09,193 --> 00:18:10,361
gripping.
276
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:17,243
In an ideal world, cinema
must have this dark power
277
00:18:18,494 --> 00:18:22,457
that you can find
in literature and music, too.
278
00:18:22,707 --> 00:18:26,711
In an ideal world,
there are no limits to cinema.
279
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,591
So of course,
Salo is a good example.
280
00:18:33,426 --> 00:18:38,181
But not just Salo, in an ideal world,
Salo discusses film, too.
281
00:18:40,892 --> 00:18:48,983
WITH:
282
00:18:50,151 --> 00:18:52,904
DIRECTOR:
283
00:18:53,696 --> 00:18:56,783
PRODUCED BY:
284
00:18:57,367 --> 00:18:59,077
SOUND ENGINEER:
285
00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:10,421
WITH THANKS TO:
23545
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