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1
00:00:10,176 --> 00:00:14,112
Do you have to keep tapping like that?
You bloated sack of protoplasm!
2
00:00:14,807 --> 00:00:17,643
- I will make him happy again.
3
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,186
You idiot!
4
00:00:34,134 --> 00:00:37,300
Everything in his life is seen
through the lens of a cartoon.
5
00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:45,044
That's all he lives and breathes is his
cartooning, you know, and it's all he knows.
6
00:00:47,246 --> 00:00:51,314
John's personality
is so permeated in that project,
7
00:00:51,349 --> 00:00:55,714
I can't imagine it being done
any other way than what it was.
8
00:00:57,850 --> 00:01:01,786
He was very driven,
very ambitious.
9
00:01:01,821 --> 00:01:05,295
He had this sort of
Rockstar status.
10
00:01:05,330 --> 00:01:07,858
He's the best
drill sergeant you'll ever meet.
11
00:01:07,893 --> 00:01:10,432
And drill sergeants do need
to be cruel.
12
00:01:11,831 --> 00:01:16,702
But underneath it all was just
this very ugly undercurrent.
13
00:01:16,737 --> 00:01:19,342
You know,
the whole thing is tragic.
14
00:01:19,377 --> 00:01:21,311
It is like a Shakespearean play.
15
00:01:26,781 --> 00:01:29,418
Ren & Stimpy was innovative
on every level.
16
00:01:29,453 --> 00:01:31,453
It was an artist-driven show.
17
00:01:32,423 --> 00:01:35,721
The drawings, the paintings,
the characters, the voices.
18
00:01:35,756 --> 00:01:38,328
Why won't they leave me alone?
19
00:01:39,298 --> 00:01:44,334
Ren & Stimpy was gorgeous, was hand painted
cells, hand inked. This was not done.
20
00:01:46,371 --> 00:01:49,702
The influence of classic
animation was extraordinary
21
00:01:49,737 --> 00:01:54,905
and it was being digested and spit out in a
way that none of us had ever seen before.
22
00:01:59,186 --> 00:02:00,812
I thought it was like
Tom and Jerry.
23
00:02:00,847 --> 00:02:04,288
If Tom and Jerry opened up
a portal to, you know, hell.
24
00:02:06,919 --> 00:02:09,392
It was unapologetic
and disgusting
25
00:02:09,427 --> 00:02:12,395
and you never got to see
that stuff on other cartoons.
26
00:02:15,202 --> 00:02:20,634
It's not just, it's also like getting deep
into the experience of the characters.
27
00:02:20,669 --> 00:02:23,670
Ren & Stimpy kind of opened the
doors saying to everyone out there,
28
00:02:24,607 --> 00:02:25,738
yeah, no more rules.
29
00:02:27,208 --> 00:02:31,414
This show built up a cult following
amongst both adults and children
30
00:02:31,449 --> 00:02:36,254
and became America's most popular
made-for-cable series in television history.
31
00:02:38,423 --> 00:02:40,918
We were the kings, we were
the bad boys of animation.
32
00:02:40,953 --> 00:02:44,262
We were making the funniest
cartoon than anybody ever made.
33
00:02:44,297 --> 00:02:51,203
In order to do what we did, it took intense
pressure and it all emanated from John.
34
00:02:51,238 --> 00:02:56,274
But behind the scenes there were a lot of
things going on that were really damaging.
35
00:02:56,309 --> 00:02:59,541
He called them beatings. Some
of it was torture, I tell you.
36
00:02:59,576 --> 00:03:02,874
He said that I could
go fuck myself.
37
00:03:03,778 --> 00:03:06,416
You know, I still have
nightmares about him.
38
00:03:07,551 --> 00:03:09,485
Despite what he says, you know,
39
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,818
nobody else worked harder
to fuck it up than this guy.
40
00:03:15,823 --> 00:03:19,726
It makes me sad because we were
changing animation forever
41
00:03:19,761 --> 00:03:22,234
and it all fell apart
before it really got going.
42
00:03:30,002 --> 00:03:33,608
Every single Ren & Stimpy
cartoon that was made
43
00:03:33,643 --> 00:03:37,216
was made with a certain amount
of pain involved,
44
00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:43,783
but that pain ended up in this creative
result that is the work of art.
45
00:03:55,632 --> 00:03:58,963
A single sentence explanation
of Ren & Stimpy,
46
00:03:58,998 --> 00:04:02,241
whoo, let's see,
where do you start?
47
00:04:03,343 --> 00:04:04,375
Um...
48
00:04:05,345 --> 00:04:06,575
Uh...
49
00:04:11,780 --> 00:04:14,946
That's a really hard one.
How would you describe it?
50
00:04:14,981 --> 00:04:17,916
I don't know.
Nothing else like it.
51
00:04:17,951 --> 00:04:21,920
It seems to be about a dog in a cap,
but it's a lot more than that.
52
00:04:21,955 --> 00:04:27,497
It's an animated show about two friends
who happened to be a dog and a cat,
53
00:04:27,532 --> 00:04:33,338
but they live on the precipice
of insanity and...
54
00:04:34,066 --> 00:04:35,769
And death.
55
00:04:35,804 --> 00:04:36,804
He's dead!
56
00:04:36,838 --> 00:04:37,903
Dead, you idiot!
57
00:04:37,938 --> 00:04:39,410
You know what dead is?
58
00:04:39,445 --> 00:04:41,285
Just like we'll be
if we don't get out of here!
59
00:04:45,484 --> 00:04:48,617
Even though now looking back, of course,
there was stuff that adults would get,
60
00:04:48,652 --> 00:04:52,753
it felt like something that was just ours and
it was weird but like you were part of it,
61
00:04:52,788 --> 00:04:53,788
like you just got it.
62
00:04:54,657 --> 00:04:57,087
It was ostensibly
a children's show.
63
00:04:57,122 --> 00:05:01,399
You know, it wasn't a prime-time television
series, it was a children's cartoon.
64
00:05:01,434 --> 00:05:03,797
What a good boy!
65
00:05:05,603 --> 00:05:08,065
Who pees
in a children's cartoon?
66
00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:12,069
I mean, like a children's cartoon where
you have a character named George Licker,
67
00:05:12,104 --> 00:05:16,777
a children's cartoon where you have a ghost
that comes back alive
68
00:05:16,812 --> 00:05:19,384
as a fully naked black man.
69
00:05:19,419 --> 00:05:21,716
Man, what a blast!
70
00:05:21,751 --> 00:05:24,048
What... What?
71
00:05:24,083 --> 00:05:28,085
♪ Masked crusaders
Working overtime ♪
72
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,494
♪ Look around... ♪
73
00:05:30,529 --> 00:05:32,991
My, I've got to pack.
74
00:05:33,026 --> 00:05:38,601
You don't realize what the state of the world
of animation was in the '80s and early '90s.
75
00:05:38,636 --> 00:05:40,966
It was a travesty.
It was an embarrassment.
76
00:05:42,002 --> 00:05:47,775
Poorly animated shows mainly created
with the intention to sell a toy line,
77
00:05:47,810 --> 00:05:51,680
but not with the intention to
actually entertain either the kids
78
00:05:51,715 --> 00:05:55,420
or the adults who had to suffer through
watching their kids watch those shows.
79
00:05:57,050 --> 00:06:00,920
The culture
was so conservative then.
80
00:06:00,955 --> 00:06:03,824
One of our most important
freedoms, the freedom of speech,
81
00:06:03,859 --> 00:06:06,860
was under attack by both
conservatives and liberals.
82
00:06:06,895 --> 00:06:09,830
Demons and Wizards,
we will be burning that tonight.
83
00:06:09,865 --> 00:06:14,868
We are going to keep on trying to
strengthen the American family
84
00:06:14,903 --> 00:06:18,135
to make American families
a lot more like The Waltons
85
00:06:18,170 --> 00:06:19,972
and a lot lesslike The Simpsons.
86
00:06:21,844 --> 00:06:24,416
All the censorship
that was going on in the world,
87
00:06:24,451 --> 00:06:27,419
I think that is what John
was pushing against.
88
00:06:34,890 --> 00:06:38,595
John's a great designer and he designed
a lot of the characters.
89
00:06:38,630 --> 00:06:42,150
He was doing the stuff we'd all have thought
about doing but nobody had the nerves to do.
90
00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:45,767
You know, he was sort of the Andy Warhol
of animation back then.
91
00:06:45,802 --> 00:06:48,671
The guy that people were getting
around and people were thinking,
92
00:06:48,706 --> 00:06:50,673
"Wow, this guy
is the new talent in town."
93
00:06:55,878 --> 00:06:59,517
John's just
obsessed with cartoons.
94
00:07:01,554 --> 00:07:03,686
I mean, the guy really
couldn't do anything else.
95
00:07:03,721 --> 00:07:08,152
I knew him personally and socially,
aside from working under him.
96
00:07:08,187 --> 00:07:13,091
He, he couldn't, you know, fix a flat, he
couldn't drive. He didn't do anything else.
97
00:07:13,126 --> 00:07:16,633
It was like this thing, this
thing, and it showed, of course.
98
00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:26,973
He's drawing all the time in his brains,
it's like he's got a pencil on his brain.
99
00:07:27,008 --> 00:07:32,176
So, he meets you, he seems very intensive,
he's drawing you.
100
00:07:35,819 --> 00:07:38,248
John K was really
talented and really funny
101
00:07:38,283 --> 00:07:40,888
and drew funnier
than anybody around
102
00:07:40,923 --> 00:07:46,190
and, uh, you know, to him, the funniest thing
in the world was Fred and Barney having sex.
103
00:07:49,833 --> 00:07:52,735
Bob said, you know,
he's the next Disney.
104
00:07:54,299 --> 00:07:58,774
We all kind of thought that... That
John was gonna be the next Walt Disney.
105
00:08:09,182 --> 00:08:10,885
I gotta move this thing out.
106
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,723
I'll just try
to sit up straight.
107
00:08:15,892 --> 00:08:19,597
So, remind me if I start slouching,
which is my normal position.
108
00:08:19,632 --> 00:08:20,928
Sure, sure.
109
00:08:24,736 --> 00:08:30,839
Did all the other, uh,
interviewees get to make up too?
110
00:08:30,874 --> 00:08:32,610
This lighting
looks awful bright.
111
00:08:32,645 --> 00:08:33,545
It... it won't be.
112
00:08:33,580 --> 00:08:34,876
I look like a ghost.
113
00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:44,556
First time I ever saw an animated cartoon, I
was floored. I just... I couldn't believe.
114
00:08:44,591 --> 00:08:46,635
I was looking it because it was
drawings that moved.
115
00:08:46,659 --> 00:08:51,321
And I was just shocked, like, "How
is this possible? This is magic!"
116
00:08:51,356 --> 00:08:53,026
And that's when I was hooked.
117
00:08:53,061 --> 00:08:55,798
And I think I was probably
about four or five.
118
00:08:56,933 --> 00:08:59,637
I've had theories
ever since I was a little kid,
119
00:08:59,672 --> 00:09:04,103
I'm always trying to analyze and figure out
how things work and why they do this or that.
120
00:09:04,138 --> 00:09:07,678
So, when I saw the cartoon, I was
convinced that magic was possible.
121
00:09:08,912 --> 00:09:11,979
I had friends
that I would give my theories to
122
00:09:12,014 --> 00:09:16,049
and I told them the theory about
cartoons must be proof of magic.
123
00:09:17,888 --> 00:09:22,055
One day I was out with my dad and he
stopped in a corner store somewhere
124
00:09:22,090 --> 00:09:24,926
and I went straight
to the, uh, toy rack.
125
00:09:24,961 --> 00:09:29,997
This long package with Huckleberry Hound
on it and I loved Huckleberry Hound,
126
00:09:30,032 --> 00:09:33,363
I tug at my dad's jacket, "Dad, you
gotta buy me Huckleberry Hound.
127
00:09:33,398 --> 00:09:35,068
Buy me Huckleberry Hound!"
128
00:09:35,103 --> 00:09:38,368
He's like, "All right,
here is your goddamn 15 cents."
129
00:09:38,403 --> 00:09:40,744
So, bought it and I took it home
and I opened it up
130
00:09:40,779 --> 00:09:43,175
and there were these
long strips,
131
00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:48,213
like film strips, of different
scenes with Huckleberry Hound.
132
00:09:48,248 --> 00:09:52,217
So, I read the instructions and it
said "Cut these individual images out,
133
00:09:52,252 --> 00:09:56,089
pile them on top of each other,
flip through them."
134
00:09:56,124 --> 00:09:58,795
You know, this just seems crazy,
all right.
135
00:09:58,830 --> 00:10:01,864
So, I'm flipping through it
and I see the animation.
136
00:10:01,899 --> 00:10:05,736
I was like, "Whoa!" They all went flying.
I was like, "Eureka!
137
00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:09,740
It isn't magic, it's science!"
138
00:10:11,909 --> 00:10:14,756
So, then I had to call my... All my friends
over to show them the flip book, right.
139
00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:19,277
Hey, I was wrong, this is
actually physically possible.
140
00:10:20,786 --> 00:10:22,060
Oh, they all thought
it was crazy.
141
00:10:22,084 --> 00:10:23,655
They just like
the funny drawings.
142
00:10:23,690 --> 00:10:25,987
If I did a funny drawing,
they'd laugh.
143
00:10:26,022 --> 00:10:28,693
So, then I thought,
"Well, make it even funnier."
144
00:10:28,728 --> 00:10:31,091
So, I would exaggerate it more
and do crazier stuff with it
145
00:10:31,126 --> 00:10:36,833
and I realized that's really the key to
cartoons is to make things so exaggerated,
146
00:10:36,868 --> 00:10:39,429
so caricatured
that people laugh.
147
00:10:39,464 --> 00:10:44,335
If you can make it funny, you
win, you get... You're popular.
148
00:10:49,309 --> 00:10:53,278
I saw a postcard with a picture
of a Chihuahua in a sweater
149
00:10:53,313 --> 00:10:56,182
standing next to, uh,
this woman's leg.
150
00:10:56,217 --> 00:10:58,349
You could tell that the dog
hated the sweater.
151
00:10:58,384 --> 00:11:00,318
It was humiliating to have
to wear this sweater.
152
00:11:01,321 --> 00:11:04,960
So, instantly,
Ren Hook came to life.
153
00:11:04,995 --> 00:11:07,732
From this, I kept drawing him
154
00:11:07,767 --> 00:11:11,362
and he, eventually, morphed
into something like this.
155
00:11:11,397 --> 00:11:15,102
It was kind of egg-shaped,
long ears.
156
00:11:17,744 --> 00:11:22,780
Stimpy, I started drawing him and it
didn't really look at all like Stimpy.
157
00:11:22,815 --> 00:11:26,014
Originally, it was just me
doodling from memory,
158
00:11:26,049 --> 00:11:29,083
the cats from the Clampett
cartoon called Gruesome Twosome,
159
00:11:30,152 --> 00:11:33,318
that had these cats in it
that had big bulbous noses.
160
00:11:34,794 --> 00:11:37,729
I didn't really discover Bob Clampett fully
till I was an adult.
161
00:11:38,424 --> 00:11:43,768
When I saw his cartoons, I was just floored
because they pulled you into them.
162
00:11:43,803 --> 00:11:44,803
Come out!
163
00:11:47,169 --> 00:11:52,271
The early cartoons were animated, drawn,
designed, painted by professionals,
164
00:11:52,306 --> 00:11:56,044
people who had learned step
by step through the 30s and 40s.
165
00:11:59,214 --> 00:12:02,787
I watched the decay of animation
which shocked me
166
00:12:02,822 --> 00:12:04,987
because I didn't think anything
can make cartoons bad.
167
00:12:09,059 --> 00:12:11,125
I was an idiot. I was naive.
168
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,799
I thought,
"Ah, we'll change it."
169
00:12:14,834 --> 00:12:17,802
And somehow, I convinced a handful of
my friends that it might happen.
170
00:12:17,837 --> 00:12:19,914
But I don't think they ever
really totally believed it.
171
00:12:19,938 --> 00:12:22,070
I think Lynne did
because she had a lot of faith.
172
00:12:24,371 --> 00:12:26,305
I was a huge fan
of his drawings.
173
00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:29,176
He'd sit down and do these
incredible drawings
174
00:12:29,211 --> 00:12:32,850
and, uh, they'd just sort
of toss them aside
175
00:12:32,885 --> 00:12:35,248
and I used to just them,
176
00:12:35,283 --> 00:12:38,856
like I used to steal them and put them in
files at one point, it was ridiculous.
177
00:12:38,891 --> 00:12:42,057
And so, I geek out
over his creativity
178
00:12:42,092 --> 00:12:47,524
and his ability to just get something
down right away like immediate...
179
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:48,932
Immediate results.
180
00:12:50,535 --> 00:12:54,872
At some point, Lynne and I made these
presentation art and story Bibles.
181
00:12:54,907 --> 00:12:57,006
Somehow,
I don't even know how I did it,
182
00:12:57,041 --> 00:13:00,339
I got meetings at each of the
Saturday morning cartoon networks,
183
00:13:00,374 --> 00:13:06,213
which were NBC, CBS, ABC,
and Fox was still fairly new,
184
00:13:06,248 --> 00:13:08,083
but they all had Saturday
morning cartoons.
185
00:13:09,383 --> 00:13:11,988
So, I went in there
and pitched the cartoons.
186
00:13:14,586 --> 00:13:20,062
I had never seen anyone take me
through a storyboard like John did.
187
00:13:20,097 --> 00:13:22,130
This... He was possessed.
188
00:13:22,165 --> 00:13:25,199
He performed every part.
He did every voice.
189
00:13:25,234 --> 00:13:27,300
He would show you the board
but you didn't need it.
190
00:13:27,335 --> 00:13:31,337
No one had cared for so long about cartoons
that he was saying,
191
00:13:31,372 --> 00:13:37,277
"Wake up, I'm telling you a story that isn't
like that other crap that you're seeing.
192
00:13:37,312 --> 00:13:41,281
Here's this new thing.
So, wake up."
193
00:13:41,316 --> 00:13:44,152
Nobody pitched like that.
It was explosive.
194
00:13:44,187 --> 00:13:47,056
Screaming and like acting out
all the lines.
195
00:13:47,091 --> 00:13:50,587
He would roll around on the floor, he
would get up, he would smash things.
196
00:13:50,622 --> 00:13:53,997
I always like horrified, I have never seen
anything like it ever.
197
00:13:54,032 --> 00:13:56,197
His glasses hit somebody
in the head once.
198
00:13:56,232 --> 00:13:58,595
Okay, beep, watch out,
the glasses are coming.
199
00:14:02,304 --> 00:14:05,569
That was John, and you walk
out of there like wow.
200
00:14:05,604 --> 00:14:07,879
Like if I was an executive,
how could you not?
201
00:14:07,914 --> 00:14:09,154
You'd have to... You'd have to.
202
00:14:09,179 --> 00:14:10,585
How do you not hire that guy
to do that?
203
00:14:10,609 --> 00:14:13,247
You lousy.
204
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,988
Shut up!
205
00:14:18,023 --> 00:14:20,419
The executives in those
days were mostly like moms.
206
00:14:20,454 --> 00:14:25,963
The... the cartoons were full of morals and
dumb stuff and they were completely bland.
207
00:14:25,998 --> 00:14:29,230
So, all of a sudden, I come in
with all these specific ideas
208
00:14:29,265 --> 00:14:32,904
and making fun
of morals and things.
209
00:14:32,939 --> 00:14:35,236
Well, that didn't go over well.
210
00:14:35,271 --> 00:14:39,108
In fact, one of the networks had a
security guard come and escort me outside.
211
00:14:40,111 --> 00:14:45,081
We read the Nickelodeon was looking for
new Saturday morning cartoon ideas
212
00:14:45,116 --> 00:14:47,182
but they didn't want to go
to the big studios.
213
00:14:47,217 --> 00:14:50,086
Didn't want to go to Hanna-Barbera, Disney,
or Warner Brothers
214
00:14:50,121 --> 00:14:52,066
because they thought they would
just get the same stuff
215
00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:53,496
that you see on Saturday
morning cartoons
216
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,280
and they wanted
something original and fresh.
217
00:14:59,427 --> 00:15:02,230
The first initial pitch with
Vanessa went very differently
218
00:15:02,265 --> 00:15:07,235
than the same pitches I gave to all these
Saturday morning cartoon networks.
219
00:15:07,270 --> 00:15:08,665
They... She didn't throw me out.
220
00:15:10,174 --> 00:15:12,471
He pitched me
a project called Your Gang.
221
00:15:12,506 --> 00:15:16,673
One of the kids in the project had a
dog and a cat called Ren & Stimpy.
222
00:15:19,315 --> 00:15:24,186
I didn't like any of the projects he pitched
me but I did like those characters.
223
00:15:24,221 --> 00:15:28,157
She just focused in on who are these two
characters here, these Ren & Stimpy.
224
00:15:28,192 --> 00:15:33,998
There was an emotional element to Ren &
Stimpy that was unlike any other, not...
225
00:15:34,033 --> 00:15:35,560
I'd never seen anything like it.
226
00:15:42,338 --> 00:15:44,041
It was edgy.
227
00:15:44,076 --> 00:15:48,738
It was probably a little bit
above our demographics.
228
00:15:48,773 --> 00:15:51,708
And Nickelodeon
was afraid of it.
229
00:15:53,415 --> 00:15:55,085
They weren't gonna do it.
230
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,221
So, I called Gerry Laybourne
and I begged her.
231
00:15:59,256 --> 00:16:00,992
I begged.
232
00:16:01,027 --> 00:16:07,559
She was hesitant but I talked her
into six episodes.
233
00:16:07,594 --> 00:16:12,564
My relationship with Vanessa right
from the beginning was like this,
234
00:16:12,599 --> 00:16:14,434
we were two peas in a pod.
235
00:16:14,469 --> 00:16:18,372
I was attracted
to that passion and craziness
236
00:16:18,407 --> 00:16:23,080
because I have a lot of passion
and I am probably crazy, too.
237
00:16:23,115 --> 00:16:25,379
If Vanessa wasn't in charge
of the new animation unit,
238
00:16:25,414 --> 00:16:27,546
it never would have happened.
239
00:16:27,581 --> 00:16:30,285
I don't think she analyzed anything,
she just knew what she liked,
240
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,221
which is extremely rare.
241
00:16:32,256 --> 00:16:35,719
It was just natural for her
to do what she felt was right.
242
00:16:35,754 --> 00:16:37,765
But, you know, which made her
a perfect executive.
243
00:16:59,745 --> 00:17:02,251
Ren, you... You're angry?
244
00:17:04,255 --> 00:17:06,618
You're darn-tootin', I'm angry!
245
00:17:06,653 --> 00:17:10,589
I have never been this angry
in my entire life!
246
00:17:12,758 --> 00:17:14,164
Hey!
247
00:17:14,199 --> 00:17:15,759
I feel great.
248
00:17:15,794 --> 00:17:17,794
I love being angry.
249
00:17:18,830 --> 00:17:20,170
Thank you, Stimpy.
250
00:17:21,536 --> 00:17:24,108
Happy to be of service.
251
00:17:28,213 --> 00:17:30,807
Ren is as dysfunctional
a character as you can get.
252
00:17:30,842 --> 00:17:35,383
I'll challenge you to identify with this
character because he's a complete ass.
253
00:17:36,716 --> 00:17:39,486
What do you mean
you don't agree with me?
254
00:17:39,521 --> 00:17:41,455
Do you know
who you're dealing with?
255
00:17:46,792 --> 00:17:49,694
But somehow, you're...
you love him.
256
00:17:49,729 --> 00:17:52,631
And if you get that out
like from the very beginning,
257
00:17:52,666 --> 00:17:55,799
you just set the tone, this is who
this guy is, he's a piece of shit.
258
00:17:55,834 --> 00:17:58,538
And I kind of want him to win,
too.
259
00:17:58,573 --> 00:18:00,243
Oh, yeah, it's great.
260
00:18:01,774 --> 00:18:03,147
Great for you.
261
00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:07,646
People always love
the stupid one.
262
00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:13,421
But nobody ever loves the jerk.
263
00:18:13,456 --> 00:18:15,786
Everybody hates me.
264
00:18:15,821 --> 00:18:19,889
Casting for Ren, I tried all kinds of
actors and I had all these people come in,
265
00:18:19,924 --> 00:18:22,562
some really good actors
and stuff
266
00:18:22,597 --> 00:18:26,368
and, uh, nobody quite could get the intensity
of the insanity that I wanted to get into Ren.
267
00:18:26,403 --> 00:18:28,238
I tried everyone.
268
00:18:28,273 --> 00:18:30,867
So, I finally just went in
and I recorded it myself
269
00:18:30,902 --> 00:18:33,353
and said I wanted to be like this
and I acted it out and stuff.
270
00:18:33,377 --> 00:18:35,410
Then I listened to it
and I hated it.
271
00:18:35,445 --> 00:18:38,446
But Nickelodeon said,
"Well, you should just do it."
272
00:18:40,186 --> 00:18:41,823
Do you have to keep tapping
like that?
273
00:18:41,847 --> 00:18:44,584
You bloated sack of protoplasm!
274
00:18:44,619 --> 00:18:49,325
John's voicing on Ren
is to me, astounding.
275
00:18:50,229 --> 00:18:51,888
Wax paper.
276
00:18:51,923 --> 00:18:55,496
There's episodes I can't believe how good
and how emotional
277
00:18:55,531 --> 00:18:58,169
and, he... he's just, you know,
278
00:18:58,204 --> 00:19:01,604
he wouldn't... Why... Why... Why should he
be good at voice acting, he's a cartoonist?
279
00:19:02,703 --> 00:19:07,178
I have had this ice-cream bar
since I was a child!
280
00:19:07,906 --> 00:19:11,479
People always trying
to take it from me!
281
00:19:11,514 --> 00:19:14,218
Why won't they leave me alone?
282
00:19:16,354 --> 00:19:19,190
In the beginning,
Ren was basically just...
283
00:19:19,225 --> 00:19:20,697
He was Peter Lorre,
he's a psychotic.
284
00:19:20,721 --> 00:19:24,327
You... you imbecile,
you bloated idiot!
285
00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:27,792
You fat bloated idiot!
286
00:19:28,762 --> 00:19:30,795
You worm!
287
00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:35,305
He... he was frail and tiny
but couldn't control his rage.
288
00:19:37,969 --> 00:19:40,244
You broke it. You broke it.
289
00:19:41,874 --> 00:19:44,446
My voice material possession.
290
00:19:44,481 --> 00:19:47,548
Stimpy was an abject retard
but with a good heart.
291
00:19:48,716 --> 00:19:51,849
Happy, happy, happy,
joy, joy, joy.
292
00:19:55,624 --> 00:20:00,528
I did Stimpy, which was based on Larry Fine
from the Three Stooges.
293
00:20:00,563 --> 00:20:02,643
What's the matter with him?
I'm still in one piece.
294
00:20:02,961 --> 00:20:05,467
His voice was so sublime.
295
00:20:05,502 --> 00:20:08,349
Everybody could do Moe and everybody could
do Curly but nobody could do Larry.
296
00:20:08,373 --> 00:20:09,801
No one even cared about him.
297
00:20:09,836 --> 00:20:12,243
But I went nuts
the little that he said.
298
00:20:12,278 --> 00:20:13,778
We gotta help him.
299
00:20:13,813 --> 00:20:15,983
He'd say like, you know, "Hey Mo, you
put too much tinsel on the tree."
300
00:20:16,007 --> 00:20:17,842
And... and John said to me,
301
00:20:17,877 --> 00:20:20,713
"I don't want him to sound like
a depressed old Jewish guy."
302
00:20:20,748 --> 00:20:24,783
So, we pitched him up and he
became very high-pitched and he...
303
00:20:24,818 --> 00:20:28,886
And he could hear better to the parameters
of a cartoon universe, you know,
304
00:20:28,921 --> 00:20:31,922
where he'd be like, you know,
"Will you button me, Ren?"
305
00:20:31,957 --> 00:20:34,023
Will you button me, Ren?
306
00:20:34,058 --> 00:20:36,696
Sure thing, pal.
307
00:20:38,299 --> 00:20:40,535
- Good night Stimpy.
- - Good night, Ren.
308
00:20:41,934 --> 00:20:45,771
You know, Stimpy was like
really innocent and pure,
309
00:20:45,806 --> 00:20:49,445
totally naive and he seemed
to believe in everything.
310
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,878
Well, guess what the mailman
brought you today...
311
00:20:53,913 --> 00:20:55,352
Nothing!
312
00:20:55,387 --> 00:20:56,980
This letter is for me!
313
00:20:57,015 --> 00:21:00,016
Vanessa never liked Ren.
Ren was abusive to Stimpy.
314
00:21:00,051 --> 00:21:01,787
Stop hitting Stimpy.
315
00:21:01,822 --> 00:21:05,395
You know, I called John,
"Stop hitting Stimpy."
316
00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:06,858
How about that?
317
00:21:06,893 --> 00:21:08,893
To me, that was integral.
318
00:21:08,928 --> 00:21:13,370
That was the core of the show
is that Ren slapped him around.
319
00:21:13,405 --> 00:21:14,701
Love.
320
00:21:14,736 --> 00:21:16,637
It says love.
321
00:21:19,609 --> 00:21:20,609
Stimpy.
322
00:21:26,451 --> 00:21:31,080
I would always have scenes where you'd feel
sorry for Ren, even though, he's the asshole.
323
00:21:31,115 --> 00:21:33,035
There's no... You shouldn't feel
sorry for him.
324
00:21:35,757 --> 00:21:37,955
Oh, Stimpy.
325
00:21:38,958 --> 00:21:42,333
I'm so ashamed.
326
00:21:42,368 --> 00:21:44,379
I didn't know that that would
translate into heart.
327
00:21:44,403 --> 00:21:47,899
I didn't set out to do "heart",
in fact I was...
328
00:21:47,934 --> 00:21:50,407
I was physiologically opposed
to it.
329
00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:52,937
And Vanessa loved that part.
330
00:21:56,481 --> 00:22:00,846
I think any great story brings out
some emotional component.
331
00:22:00,881 --> 00:22:06,984
Ren & Stimpy's particularly,
was funny and emotional.
332
00:22:07,019 --> 00:22:10,493
It was emotionally compelling
usually because of Stimpy.
333
00:22:10,528 --> 00:22:12,858
There, there Ren.
334
00:22:13,861 --> 00:22:16,092
There, there.
335
00:22:17,062 --> 00:22:19,370
Stimpy loved Ren.
336
00:22:19,405 --> 00:22:25,805
No matter how much he was abused or
treated badly, Stimpy loved Ren.
337
00:22:26,874 --> 00:22:30,843
They're just as real and... and as fucked
up and as messed up as normal people
338
00:22:30,878 --> 00:22:33,813
and they have real problems
and insecurities
339
00:22:33,848 --> 00:22:36,618
and... and they drive each other
crazy all the time
340
00:22:36,653 --> 00:22:39,918
but they're absolutely inseparable
because they need each other.
341
00:22:40,888 --> 00:22:41,888
Pal.
342
00:22:44,155 --> 00:22:45,594
Buddy.
343
00:22:47,297 --> 00:22:51,160
It's their relationship, you have this person
who's really angry at the world, upset,
344
00:22:51,195 --> 00:22:55,032
should be like this or like that, he
thinks he's a genius, maybe he's not,
345
00:22:55,067 --> 00:22:58,805
and then you have this really sweet other
person who's sometimes an enabler.
346
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,972
You stupid.
347
00:23:02,580 --> 00:23:03,645
Idiot!
348
00:23:06,749 --> 00:23:09,684
It's kind of stylized toxicity,
you know,
349
00:23:09,719 --> 00:23:11,719
and there's a...
there's a yin-yang to it.
350
00:23:14,889 --> 00:23:17,692
People always ask me if I identify
with either of them.
351
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:23,027
Well, I'm not gonna say that I
identify with... with an idiot,
352
00:23:23,062 --> 00:23:27,438
um, but I... I... I guess I do
identify with an asshole.
353
00:23:27,473 --> 00:23:29,704
So, Ren is the one
I identify with more.
354
00:23:36,944 --> 00:23:42,486
John is clearly Ren.
And Stimpy was Lynne.
355
00:23:42,521 --> 00:23:46,457
Never angry, just always heart first,
feeling first.
356
00:23:47,218 --> 00:23:51,594
For me, in the beginning of Ren &
Stimpy was a mom-and-pop shop.
357
00:23:51,629 --> 00:23:54,465
It was John and Lynne
and, you know,
358
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:56,566
everyone else was support
for that, you know,
359
00:23:56,601 --> 00:24:01,934
'cause they were... They've been together
for 13 years or so.
360
00:24:01,969 --> 00:24:04,970
And she could draw
just as well as he could.
361
00:24:13,013 --> 00:24:15,519
While I was at Sheridan College,
362
00:24:15,554 --> 00:24:19,017
one of the assignments we had was to take
a famous cartoon character and draw it.
363
00:24:19,052 --> 00:24:23,186
So, I chose Merlin the magician
from The Sword in the Stone,
364
00:24:23,221 --> 00:24:25,581
which was one of my favorite
Disney movies when I was a kid.
365
00:24:26,191 --> 00:24:29,995
There was this really cute girl and
I saw her put her drawings down
366
00:24:30,030 --> 00:24:31,799
and Merlin the magician
was one of them,
367
00:24:31,834 --> 00:24:33,834
but I saw it had
this really unique style
368
00:24:33,869 --> 00:24:37,035
that didn't look like
what other people were doing.
369
00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:40,137
And I think I kind of fell
in love with her right there.
370
00:24:42,713 --> 00:24:47,782
In 1979, I moved to California, to L.A.
I was missing Lynne.
371
00:24:47,817 --> 00:24:49,520
I said, "Why don't you
come down, man?"
372
00:24:49,555 --> 00:24:52,985
Sneak across the border
like I did. I told her how.
373
00:24:53,020 --> 00:24:56,890
I hope I don't go to jail for this.
Luckily, I'm a citizen now.
374
00:25:01,699 --> 00:25:06,163
I pictured it to be completely
different like Beach Boys, the beach
375
00:25:06,198 --> 00:25:09,771
and, you know, Hollywood and fine
and I thought that was all golden
376
00:25:09,806 --> 00:25:12,268
and... And crystal
and sparkly and it wasn't.
377
00:25:12,303 --> 00:25:14,842
And getting a job
was really tough at that time.
378
00:25:14,877 --> 00:25:17,911
I had trouble trying to
get my style into the business.
379
00:25:17,946 --> 00:25:20,056
You know, when they looked at my
stuff, they liked it but they said,
380
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,114
"Hey, but it's like too Looney Tunes.
It's... been done before."
381
00:25:23,149 --> 00:25:25,556
Then after a while
I called, uh, Jim Gomez.
382
00:25:26,350 --> 00:25:30,253
We both went to Sheridan College and I met
John there and the union had gone on strike,
383
00:25:30,288 --> 00:25:32,772
the animation union had gone on
strike the day we had showed up.
384
00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:34,301
It was the first strike
in four years.
385
00:25:34,325 --> 00:25:36,127
So, I ended up working
at 7-Eleven.
386
00:25:36,162 --> 00:25:39,669
We didn't have any money,
so we had to rent one place.
387
00:25:39,704 --> 00:25:42,738
It was a bachelor apartment, there
was no bedroom, it was one room.
388
00:25:42,773 --> 00:25:44,674
There was four of us in there.
389
00:25:44,709 --> 00:25:46,753
It's 112 degrees out in Los Angeles,
you know how it is here,
390
00:25:46,777 --> 00:25:48,810
sometimes it gets unbearable,
391
00:25:48,845 --> 00:25:50,757
there's no air-conditioning, there's
roaches all over the place.
392
00:25:50,781 --> 00:25:53,782
You know, sometimes we'd stay up
all night just killing roaches.
393
00:25:53,817 --> 00:25:55,350
John had bought
all these roach traps
394
00:25:55,385 --> 00:25:58,094
which we called Muhammad Ali roach
traps, had a picture of the champ on it.
395
00:25:58,118 --> 00:26:00,217
It was one of his more
dubious business deals.
396
00:26:00,252 --> 00:26:02,197
And they couldn't get rid of the damn bugs,
they're everywhere.
397
00:26:02,221 --> 00:26:03,990
I was like,
"Oh, my God, it's crazy."
398
00:26:04,025 --> 00:26:06,663
I remember there's big jar
of pickles in the fridge.
399
00:26:06,698 --> 00:26:08,324
It was like big pickles.
400
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,931
I think John liked
big pickles, too,
401
00:26:10,966 --> 00:26:17,707
so, there wasn't anything to eat, like,
there wasn't... We're really hungry, so.
402
00:26:22,446 --> 00:26:24,791
Whenever I met somebody in the business
who I thought was really good,
403
00:26:24,815 --> 00:26:26,881
I would take them over to John.
404
00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:30,654
There's not a lot of these, you know,
super specific people
405
00:26:30,689 --> 00:26:33,987
that have the ability to translate
their personality or what they believe
406
00:26:34,022 --> 00:26:37,056
and what they feel through
the pencil onto the paper.
407
00:26:37,091 --> 00:26:41,324
But whenever I found somebody like that,
I would totally latch on to the person.
408
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,931
Lynne was one.
Jim Smith was one.
409
00:26:43,966 --> 00:26:45,262
Bob Camp.
410
00:26:46,672 --> 00:26:48,397
Bob and I had a good chemistry.
411
00:26:48,432 --> 00:26:51,367
We'd go everywhere together.
We'd laugh together.
412
00:26:51,402 --> 00:26:54,304
It was a perfect partnership.
413
00:26:54,339 --> 00:26:58,275
We'd listen to music on John's
record player and watch cartoons
414
00:26:58,310 --> 00:27:02,884
and we would, uh, share theories
about animation.
415
00:27:02,919 --> 00:27:05,117
I've had people say to me
I can draw in any style,
416
00:27:05,152 --> 00:27:07,284
which basically means
they can't draw very well
417
00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:11,288
because nobody can draw in
every style except for Bob Camp.
418
00:27:11,323 --> 00:27:15,028
We had the audacity to call
ourselves big shots
419
00:27:15,063 --> 00:27:17,008
because John's always using
that term, you know,
420
00:27:17,032 --> 00:27:19,901
"Someday we're gonna be
big shots."
421
00:27:19,936 --> 00:27:23,135
We had this naive expectation that
we were gonna make great cartoons
422
00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:26,435
because after all nobody was,
so they would buy them from us
423
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:28,910
because clearly,
nobody knew how to do it
424
00:27:28,945 --> 00:27:31,945
and so, if we offered them great cartoons,
naturally, they would get made.
425
00:27:32,784 --> 00:27:35,444
Those guys did have like a real
punk... punk mentality.
426
00:27:35,479 --> 00:27:38,447
They were like if we... if we sort of
set the tone how we want it to be,
427
00:27:38,482 --> 00:27:41,153
it'll turn that way.
428
00:27:41,188 --> 00:27:44,728
That's a trip. That's a lot of... that's a lot
of hubris, a lot of, um... a lot of balls.
429
00:27:45,456 --> 00:27:48,160
And, you know, at some point I
realized we need our own studio
430
00:27:48,195 --> 00:27:51,262
just so we can do what we
were put on Earth to do.
431
00:27:51,297 --> 00:27:54,804
And I think Bob came up
with the term Spumco.
432
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:58,940
Where are we going, Bill?
433
00:27:58,975 --> 00:28:01,256
We're going to see the creators
of Ren & Stimpy at Spumco.
434
00:28:09,821 --> 00:28:15,286
The Spumco offices were kind of gross,
these weird little dank rooms.
435
00:28:15,321 --> 00:28:19,862
The best way I can describe that studio was
it was a shithole.
436
00:28:21,459 --> 00:28:23,998
Like it or not.
437
00:28:24,033 --> 00:28:27,430
Spumco was this horrible old building
that had been supposedly a brothel for...
438
00:28:27,465 --> 00:28:31,500
For Paramount and it was like covered
in ugly white tile,
439
00:28:31,535 --> 00:28:33,205
looked like a giant urinal,
basically.
440
00:28:34,208 --> 00:28:35,875
It was so much fun.
441
00:28:35,910 --> 00:28:39,475
We all were like, you know, having a good
time waiting for somebody to kick the door
442
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:42,470
and drag us out in the street and tell
us to get the hell out, you know.
443
00:28:43,151 --> 00:28:45,415
It's... it's weird
that they let us do it.
444
00:28:45,450 --> 00:28:48,253
We all were being
the bad boys, you know,
445
00:28:48,288 --> 00:28:50,453
being the Rolling Stones
of the animation industry
446
00:28:50,488 --> 00:28:54,831
and, uh, we pissed people off and we
were kind of bunch of rude jerks.
447
00:28:54,866 --> 00:28:59,902
It was John, Bob, Vincent. Vincent
is just like Mr. Cool Calm.
448
00:28:59,937 --> 00:29:04,203
And then Bob's intensity, so Bob has
the intensity between John and Vincent
449
00:29:04,238 --> 00:29:05,809
but they're all demented.
450
00:29:05,844 --> 00:29:08,339
If an alien spaceship landed
451
00:29:08,374 --> 00:29:10,242
and took everybody
that was hanging out there,
452
00:29:10,277 --> 00:29:13,883
it would be a really bad
sampling of the human race.
453
00:29:13,918 --> 00:29:15,049
Lynne.
454
00:29:15,084 --> 00:29:16,182
Okay, okay.
455
00:29:18,923 --> 00:29:23,156
I think the excitement was like, "Oh, we really
get to do this. How do we do it?", you know,
456
00:29:23,191 --> 00:29:24,871
just wanting to get everything
in there.
457
00:29:26,161 --> 00:29:30,031
Lynne was the heart, you know,
and John was the brains
458
00:29:30,066 --> 00:29:33,463
and we were all just, you know,
playing different instruments.
459
00:29:35,005 --> 00:29:39,271
Spumco was probably
the greatest collection
460
00:29:39,306 --> 00:29:42,274
of talented artists,
461
00:29:42,309 --> 00:29:47,917
not just animators, not just character designers,
not just background artists... artists.
462
00:29:47,952 --> 00:29:52,251
It just stunned me
like how good everyone was.
463
00:29:56,422 --> 00:30:02,261
I mean, Jim Smith was the best draftsman
that I have ever met probably in my life,
464
00:30:02,296 --> 00:30:04,362
if not for Chris Reccardi, too.
465
00:30:05,563 --> 00:30:06,870
And Bill Wray.
466
00:30:07,631 --> 00:30:11,105
He's an extraordinary artist.
467
00:30:11,140 --> 00:30:15,142
I walk in and there's Bill Wray
painting these paintings
468
00:30:15,177 --> 00:30:17,848
that I think should have been
in museums.
469
00:30:17,883 --> 00:30:20,279
This was a cartoon
and these were the backgrounds
470
00:30:20,314 --> 00:30:24,217
that were gonna be in the cartoon
that we're making here. Oh, my God.
471
00:30:25,484 --> 00:30:31,455
We would use sponges to do dot pattern
effects. These are makeup sponges.
472
00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:36,966
And when you're trying to get, uh, a transition
of dark to light, you press it on there.
473
00:30:39,003 --> 00:30:41,432
I've said for many years
and I believe this,
474
00:30:41,467 --> 00:30:44,578
there should be a coffee table book of all
Bill Wray's backgrounds from Ren & Stimpy.
475
00:30:44,602 --> 00:30:46,602
I mean what a book
that would be.
476
00:30:46,637 --> 00:30:49,253
He started doing abstract splashes of color
to heighten the emotion
477
00:30:49,277 --> 00:30:51,244
and that's everybody's
stealing that today.
478
00:30:53,281 --> 00:30:55,952
John knows what he wants, you know,
and he knows what works
479
00:30:55,987 --> 00:31:00,484
and he knows what doesn't work and he knows
what he likes. And I think he made all of us...
480
00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:04,257
He certainly made me a better artist,
better color stylist for sure.
481
00:31:05,491 --> 00:31:08,998
John's got a ton of charisma
and his magic
482
00:31:09,033 --> 00:31:14,564
was able to bring really multi-talented
people together in a unified force, you know,
483
00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:17,567
that... that had conviction
and belief and stuff.
484
00:31:17,602 --> 00:31:20,075
If anything could be
called genius, that's, you know,
485
00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:24,948
being able to mobilize people to come
together to produce something great.
486
00:31:27,447 --> 00:31:30,184
It's not rare to find people
who have unique personalities.
487
00:31:30,219 --> 00:31:34,617
It's rare to find people who can tap them
and put them on paper.
488
00:31:41,164 --> 00:31:43,637
A lot of the stuff was just based
on our emotional experiences
489
00:31:43,661 --> 00:31:46,497
which we definitely
tried to relive
490
00:31:46,532 --> 00:31:50,171
and make sure you felt whatever it
was we were feeling at that time.
491
00:31:50,206 --> 00:31:52,514
When I was growing up, my mother
was a Jehovah's Witness,
492
00:31:52,538 --> 00:31:54,637
I was forced to go out
and go door-to-door.
493
00:31:55,739 --> 00:31:58,982
And you never know
what's gonna open that door.
494
00:32:02,515 --> 00:32:05,021
The Nipple Salesman episode,
495
00:32:05,056 --> 00:32:09,058
there's a moment where Mr. Horse clearly
is being portrayed as a sexual predator.
496
00:32:09,093 --> 00:32:10,488
But I'll tell you what though...
497
00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:15,658
Do you have any rubber
walrus protectors?
498
00:32:18,135 --> 00:32:20,399
Call the police.
499
00:32:21,567 --> 00:32:24,502
And, I mean, God knows
how that got through.
500
00:32:24,537 --> 00:32:28,044
Quick, man! Cling tenaciously
to my buttocks!
501
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:29,079
Both of them?
502
00:32:34,283 --> 00:32:37,053
You know, John,
there would always be something
503
00:32:37,088 --> 00:32:39,385
in the cartoon
that he wanted to slip by.
504
00:32:40,388 --> 00:32:46,161
Their process was to bombard me
with the most intense stuff
505
00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:48,559
and, I mean, they did sneak
some things through.
506
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:55,104
There is a very powerful supercharged
vacuum cleaner and... and he says it can...
507
00:32:55,139 --> 00:32:59,504
This vacuum cleaner can suck a monkey
through 40 feet of garden hose.
508
00:33:01,409 --> 00:33:03,541
It can suck a monkey
through 30 feet of garden hose.
509
00:33:03,576 --> 00:33:08,513
You hear that line, I was like,
"Oh, my God, how did that get in?"
510
00:33:08,548 --> 00:33:11,219
John used to hide little bits
of drawing under the storyboard
511
00:33:11,254 --> 00:33:13,353
and he would send a copy
to Nickelodeon.
512
00:33:13,388 --> 00:33:15,795
He'd show it to me and he'd go, "Dan,
look what we got away with,"
513
00:33:15,819 --> 00:33:19,161
and pull a Post-it back in.
514
00:33:19,196 --> 00:33:21,757
They just didn't
catch it, you know,
515
00:33:21,792 --> 00:33:24,331
and then they were furious
when they saw it.
516
00:33:24,366 --> 00:33:26,432
And we were like,
"Look, it's in the storyboard."
517
00:33:26,467 --> 00:33:28,269
Man, that's pretty.
518
00:33:28,304 --> 00:33:31,569
We were constantly adding stuff,
a little innuendo there,
519
00:33:31,604 --> 00:33:34,110
a little something
in the background there.
520
00:33:34,145 --> 00:33:36,453
And Nickelodeon would we say, you know,
"Don't... Don't, we can't do that."
521
00:33:36,477 --> 00:33:37,773
And we'd go, "Okay."
522
00:33:37,808 --> 00:33:39,379
What can I do for you, Officer?
523
00:33:39,414 --> 00:33:42,316
Like the glass coffee table
collection.
524
00:33:43,451 --> 00:33:47,453
And see, and I say that to some people
and people don't get the joke,
525
00:33:47,488 --> 00:33:50,093
- so, I'll just leave it there.
- I got it.
526
00:33:50,128 --> 00:33:53,327
There's also a great shot where people are
throwing hats in the air.
527
00:33:53,362 --> 00:33:55,824
If you DVD slow frame
through it,
528
00:33:55,859 --> 00:34:01,698
there's an intestine that flies up and a big
turd shoots out the side and flies off screen.
529
00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:10,377
There... There are things I look at
now going, you know, "Where was I?"
530
00:34:10,412 --> 00:34:13,809
You can string the dingleberry
garland.
531
00:34:13,844 --> 00:34:16,350
I never knew
what a dingleberry was.
532
00:34:16,385 --> 00:34:19,353
Everybody was laughing
at dingleberry garland
533
00:34:19,388 --> 00:34:22,554
and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, why
are you laughing? It's so sweet."
534
00:34:22,589 --> 00:34:25,491
And everyone's like, "Okay."
535
00:34:25,526 --> 00:34:29,099
That one they got...
They got on me.
536
00:34:29,134 --> 00:34:33,268
John was never more vulnerable than
when he was pleading for me to...
537
00:34:33,303 --> 00:34:37,833
to get them to pass some jokes that he
thought were necessary for kids to see,
538
00:34:37,868 --> 00:34:41,144
when I would say,
"Look, uh, did what I could,
539
00:34:41,179 --> 00:34:43,872
but they're not gonna let Ren
eat his own vomit."
540
00:34:43,907 --> 00:34:45,676
There would be
this long silence on the phone
541
00:34:45,711 --> 00:34:47,810
like he just couldn't
fathom it, you know,
542
00:34:47,845 --> 00:34:51,121
he'd just be like, "I mean... I mean,
it's not like they're fucking."
543
00:35:01,595 --> 00:35:05,432
If you were outside the studio,
it seemed like a cult.
544
00:35:06,336 --> 00:35:08,666
And if you were inside
the studio, it was like cult.
545
00:35:08,701 --> 00:35:12,307
It's not a cult.
Oh, John, John, John.
546
00:35:15,675 --> 00:35:18,148
Yeah, I could see where people
would think it's a cult.
547
00:35:21,285 --> 00:35:24,352
At that time, there really
wasn't anybody older
548
00:35:24,387 --> 00:35:29,390
who was really doing anything
good like what he wanted to do.
549
00:35:29,425 --> 00:35:33,625
So, it was like recruiting young people
that were fresh and training them.
550
00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:36,562
So, I was one of a handful
of those people.
551
00:35:37,598 --> 00:35:39,433
Coming into
the industry I felt like,
552
00:35:39,468 --> 00:35:41,446
"Oh, there's only certain things
you are gonna be able to do,
553
00:35:41,470 --> 00:35:44,306
so, here's where you should set
your heights," you know.
554
00:35:44,341 --> 00:35:47,540
But then with John, it was like, "No, no,
set them way over here."
555
00:35:47,575 --> 00:35:52,380
And for RAs for 18, 19, 20, that was what
we were looking for.
556
00:35:52,415 --> 00:35:56,384
When I first started working
there, I, uh... I had this...
557
00:35:56,419 --> 00:35:58,716
I have a really distinct memory
of going,
558
00:35:58,751 --> 00:36:02,423
"I can't believe I'm here like this
is exactly where I need to be."
559
00:36:02,458 --> 00:36:04,689
We were in the
place we needed to be
560
00:36:04,724 --> 00:36:10,695
and we were working out primally
how to make the best cartoons.
561
00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:13,368
It's like all of a sudden,
I'm like 18, 19
562
00:36:13,403 --> 00:36:20,672
and I'm working on a show that is,
obviously, revolutionizing TV animation.
563
00:36:20,707 --> 00:36:24,610
And I was so enamored
of this personality.
564
00:36:24,645 --> 00:36:29,681
But in working at Spumco, I realized that
it wasn't just John.
565
00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:33,784
John was really good
at being a driving force.
566
00:36:33,819 --> 00:36:38,756
But behind that driving force came all
of these people that made you care.
567
00:36:45,468 --> 00:36:47,941
You know, the... the drawback with
cartoons is they take so long to make
568
00:36:47,965 --> 00:36:49,142
'cause you have to...
You have to animate it
569
00:36:49,166 --> 00:36:51,351
and, you know, you can't get
the cartoon up and running.
570
00:36:51,375 --> 00:36:52,968
Unless you're South Park,
you know,
571
00:36:53,003 --> 00:36:55,603
you're gonna have to spend a year
to get a season figured out.
572
00:36:58,712 --> 00:36:59,712
Oh, man.
573
00:37:01,484 --> 00:37:02,978
Yeah, we will.
574
00:37:03,013 --> 00:37:06,289
As much as I talk about
how much we, uh, screwed around,
575
00:37:06,324 --> 00:37:09,787
you still had to spend a lot
of times indoor sitting down
576
00:37:09,822 --> 00:37:12,658
drawing hundreds
and hundreds of drawings.
577
00:37:12,693 --> 00:37:15,474
It's the nature of... of animation,
all those drawings have to be done.
578
00:37:15,498 --> 00:37:19,896
It's madness. It's cra... It is a mad
medium in that 24 frames a second
579
00:37:19,931 --> 00:37:21,403
even if you break it down.
580
00:37:24,705 --> 00:37:28,278
So, we were doing first episode,
Stimpy's Big Day.
581
00:37:28,313 --> 00:37:30,478
You could see the pressure
from the very beginning.
582
00:37:30,513 --> 00:37:35,351
Everyone was there trying
really following John K's notes,
583
00:37:35,386 --> 00:37:37,914
trying to redraw, very intense.
584
00:37:37,949 --> 00:37:41,291
And all I could think of is,
"This is not gonna last.
585
00:37:41,326 --> 00:37:44,019
It's either gonna drive...
I'm thinking of Lynne now...
586
00:37:44,054 --> 00:37:46,857
"You're either gonna go nuts
from this
587
00:37:46,892 --> 00:37:50,399
or you're gonna go further and
further down this rabbit hole."
588
00:37:51,094 --> 00:37:55,030
But then, see, I was with John for
a while, um, as his girlfriend.
589
00:37:55,065 --> 00:37:57,571
So, uh, we broke up, so I left.
590
00:38:01,808 --> 00:38:07,482
It was kind of like mom's going and, uh...
And we're left with psycho dad.
591
00:38:08,584 --> 00:38:10,782
But we have two psycho dads.
592
00:38:10,817 --> 00:38:16,689
We've got John and Bob, two alpha males
who are highly overly opinionated.
593
00:38:16,724 --> 00:38:21,892
And this is like before we even finished
the first episode of the series.
594
00:38:23,896 --> 00:38:29,900
We were all trying to live up
to John's idea of quality.
595
00:38:36,777 --> 00:38:43,749
John was, you know, willful
and he was, uh, eccentric,
596
00:38:43,784 --> 00:38:45,421
creatively volatile,
597
00:38:45,456 --> 00:38:48,017
hard to deal with, nasty,
but he was the artist.
598
00:38:48,954 --> 00:38:53,055
If he wanted to sort of jump
to the next tier of quality
599
00:38:53,090 --> 00:38:56,663
and he sort of expected his
artists to follow through on that
600
00:38:56,698 --> 00:38:58,830
and when we didn't,
he would call us out.
601
00:38:59,833 --> 00:39:03,065
I've been called a dictator.
I disagree with that.
602
00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:05,837
He was the hardest director
I ever worked for.
603
00:39:05,872 --> 00:39:08,675
You know,
he had a sadistic edge.
604
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:13,141
I was screamed at... screamed at,
at least three times in public.
605
00:39:13,176 --> 00:39:15,550
The artists that worked for me
had more leeway
606
00:39:15,585 --> 00:39:18,553
than they ever had in cartoons
they worked previously
607
00:39:18,588 --> 00:39:21,655
and the cartoons
they worked on afterwards.
608
00:39:21,690 --> 00:39:24,757
There were two factions. Some people
thought he was a crazy person,
609
00:39:24,792 --> 00:39:29,729
um, but actually John, um, had a
razor-sharp vision of what he wanted.
610
00:39:29,764 --> 00:39:32,534
And he really does see things
nobody else can see. That's true.
611
00:39:34,835 --> 00:39:37,671
John could be really tough. I would
sit in there and I'm just like,
612
00:39:37,706 --> 00:39:39,904
"Okay, you're gonna say
one more thing
613
00:39:39,939 --> 00:39:42,979
and I'm gonna take this fist and double
it up and knock you off that stool."
614
00:39:43,008 --> 00:39:45,844
And I swear to God, it's like he
had a psychic meter in his head
615
00:39:45,879 --> 00:39:49,848
for when that place was with me
and he would instantly go,
616
00:39:49,883 --> 00:39:51,850
"But you did a really
good thing right here
617
00:39:51,885 --> 00:39:54,285
and that's really nice and blah blah."
It's like, "Ah, okay."
618
00:40:02,566 --> 00:40:08,801
You know, it was a hard job because his
standards were so, so high.
619
00:40:08,836 --> 00:40:13,003
It was an enormous amount of pressure
but we'd all signed up for that
620
00:40:13,038 --> 00:40:16,171
and we'd all signed up
for like no sleep
621
00:40:16,206 --> 00:40:20,109
and really long hours
and coming in on the weekend.
622
00:40:21,112 --> 00:40:25,620
I know in my case and a lot of people's
case, we just had that side of us.
623
00:40:25,655 --> 00:40:28,425
They wanted to be attached
to something really cool.
624
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,825
There was a lot of talk about like how
could you work for this guy and da da da,
625
00:40:32,860 --> 00:40:34,156
he is such a jerk.
626
00:40:34,191 --> 00:40:36,631
And you work for jerks
in your life.
627
00:40:36,666 --> 00:40:39,205
But if you work with somebody who
actually cares about what they're doing
628
00:40:39,229 --> 00:40:42,868
and maybe take some pride in it,
that is rare actually.
629
00:40:42,903 --> 00:40:45,871
So, I'd much rather work for the jerk
who has pride in what he's doing.
630
00:40:49,140 --> 00:40:52,779
He's like a cartoon character himself. I
mean, you... You go eat dinner with him
631
00:40:52,814 --> 00:40:54,154
and he orders a salad
and he goes,
632
00:40:54,178 --> 00:40:55,914
"Queer times,
what the hell is that?"
633
00:40:55,949 --> 00:40:57,828
And he'd pick them up
and throw them across the room.
634
00:40:57,852 --> 00:41:01,491
You know, he's badly behaved,
you know, but... But funny.
635
00:41:01,526 --> 00:41:05,759
John's secret is, if he doesn't get it
the first time,
636
00:41:05,794 --> 00:41:10,533
he'll try ten more times and if that
doesn't work, he'll try a hundred times.
637
00:41:10,568 --> 00:41:13,866
He will do something
until he gets it.
638
00:41:13,901 --> 00:41:16,000
He obsesses
over getting it right.
639
00:41:16,937 --> 00:41:21,236
And if you're doing the thing
right, uh, it's never easy.
640
00:41:24,010 --> 00:41:26,142
It's all about,
if you can't stand the heat,
641
00:41:26,177 --> 00:41:28,815
get out of the kitchen
and everything is fair game
642
00:41:28,850 --> 00:41:32,082
and you pick on everybody
and everybody picks on you
643
00:41:32,117 --> 00:41:34,689
and, you know,
you don't hold back any punches.
644
00:41:34,724 --> 00:41:36,889
It was like that
at Ren & Stimpy.
645
00:41:36,924 --> 00:41:41,663
And, uh, I think if John K were normal,
the show would be more normal.
646
00:41:49,871 --> 00:41:55,006
My hands... dirty.
647
00:41:57,274 --> 00:41:59,109
The dirt won't come off!
648
00:42:01,949 --> 00:42:03,949
Ahh!
649
00:42:03,984 --> 00:42:07,887
A lot of people think that Ren
& Stimpy is sho... shock.
650
00:42:08,989 --> 00:42:12,595
To me, it's not...
It wasn't shock at all.
651
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:17,996
I... I really believe that it was
characters expressing just emotions
652
00:42:18,031 --> 00:42:20,999
that are kind of horrifying
to look at
653
00:42:21,034 --> 00:42:27,775
or people are scared to look at of
depression and mental problems, delusions.
654
00:42:30,142 --> 00:42:35,178
It's psychological and John
was a master at transferring
655
00:42:35,213 --> 00:42:38,313
what was here
directly into your mind.
656
00:42:42,825 --> 00:42:48,059
The one thing I noticed early on is the characters
were assuming the shape of their emotion.
657
00:42:48,094 --> 00:42:50,369
If they were depressed, they
were kind of flattened down.
658
00:42:50,393 --> 00:42:53,361
If they were real happy, they
were stretched and... And lively
659
00:42:53,396 --> 00:42:58,003
and, you know, it was... It was almost
you were looking at symbols of emotions.
660
00:42:58,038 --> 00:43:00,038
And then when you had
the expressions on top,
661
00:43:00,073 --> 00:43:01,908
it just made it
that much stronger.
662
00:43:05,683 --> 00:43:09,784
The characters emote, they change,
they squash and stretch.
663
00:43:09,819 --> 00:43:13,656
They express themselves
in visually grotesque way.
664
00:43:14,417 --> 00:43:18,320
We got to know who Ren & Stimpy
were in their heads.
665
00:43:18,355 --> 00:43:21,961
We got to see psychologically
what was going on in there.
666
00:43:21,996 --> 00:43:23,831
-Hey.
667
00:43:25,835 --> 00:43:28,869
It's happening again, my brain!
668
00:43:28,904 --> 00:43:34,402
I think John really tried to... to get
expressions that are kind of based on life
669
00:43:34,437 --> 00:43:39,649
and trying to do a cartoon take on
something that's very specific,
670
00:43:39,684 --> 00:43:44,786
something complex and not just like
something out of the Preston Blair book.
671
00:43:48,825 --> 00:43:55,863
There were a lot of studios and cartoons that
had a very formulaic use of this is what,
672
00:43:55,898 --> 00:43:58,261
you know, their lip-sync chart
looks like this
673
00:43:58,296 --> 00:44:03,805
and, you know, that people would just kind
of plug it in and John was like, "No."
674
00:44:06,107 --> 00:44:09,844
While you were drawing,
you had to make the expression.
675
00:44:09,879 --> 00:44:13,342
So, if Stimpy was smiling, you were smiling
while you were drawing.
676
00:44:13,377 --> 00:44:17,852
Or, you know, if he was angry, you had
to really put it into the cartoon.
677
00:44:19,416 --> 00:44:22,186
So, we had to study acting.
678
00:44:22,221 --> 00:44:23,990
Takes a long time to become
a good animator
679
00:44:24,025 --> 00:44:26,190
just like it takes a long time
to become a good actor.
680
00:44:28,095 --> 00:44:31,261
You know, back then,
laserdiscs was a big thing,
681
00:44:31,296 --> 00:44:35,738
so, John and I would get all these laser
discs so we could freeze frame them.
682
00:44:36,873 --> 00:44:41,942
We studied a lot of the sort of classic
Hollywood actors that actually overacted.
683
00:44:41,977 --> 00:44:44,241
Kirk Douglas was a favorite.
684
00:44:44,276 --> 00:44:47,442
Dirty pictures
you put there today.
685
00:44:47,477 --> 00:44:49,114
Dirty pictures?
686
00:44:49,149 --> 00:44:50,149
Yes.
687
00:44:51,685 --> 00:44:57,452
Kirk Douglas, the amount of crazy
expressions that goes into his face
688
00:44:57,487 --> 00:45:00,290
for one expression
is like staggering.
689
00:45:02,459 --> 00:45:05,262
If you were to look
at all the drawings
690
00:45:05,297 --> 00:45:10,069
and see what went into, you know,
one of Ren or Stimpy's expressions,
691
00:45:10,104 --> 00:45:12,005
it would be like, "Wow."
692
00:45:14,075 --> 00:45:17,912
One of the things I love about Kirk Douglas
is he reminded me of my dad
693
00:45:19,377 --> 00:45:22,411
and he reminds me of men, in general,
maybe not the man of today.
694
00:45:22,446 --> 00:45:28,318
But, traditionally, men try
to keep their emotions inside
695
00:45:28,353 --> 00:45:30,419
but they can't ultimately
because it builds up.
696
00:45:30,454 --> 00:45:34,962
The more you keep it inside, you don't cry
and you don't yell,
697
00:45:34,997 --> 00:45:38,526
it's just churning
like lava inside you and...
698
00:45:38,561 --> 00:45:43,201
I used to watch my dad, whenever my dad
was chewing me out or lecturing me,
699
00:45:43,236 --> 00:45:49,141
I'd see him like... he's doing
this, "Listen Johnny..."
700
00:45:50,573 --> 00:45:53,112
and I could tell
what his feeling is,
701
00:45:53,147 --> 00:45:57,787
"I don't want to kill the guy but I have
to somehow get through... through him
702
00:45:57,822 --> 00:46:00,185
'cause he's such a damn moron."
703
00:46:00,220 --> 00:46:04,255
So, he's holding back all those violence
and I'd see his face twisting and boiling.
704
00:46:04,290 --> 00:46:07,929
I was like, "Oh, shit."
But it was entertaining.
705
00:46:11,099 --> 00:46:13,935
You know what it's like when you're a kid
and you're having dinner
706
00:46:13,970 --> 00:46:15,574
and you're supposed
to be in good behavior
707
00:46:15,598 --> 00:46:18,104
and the more you're trying
to be on good behavior,
708
00:46:18,139 --> 00:46:20,843
the more you hear
your friend snickering.
709
00:46:20,878 --> 00:46:23,438
And then you can't look at them,
right, and you start to snicker.
710
00:46:25,476 --> 00:46:28,026
And then you watch your dad getting
madder and madder, you know,
711
00:46:28,050 --> 00:46:29,410
until he breaks
the fork in half.
712
00:46:31,449 --> 00:46:33,086
I was scared shitless.
713
00:46:34,656 --> 00:46:38,289
But I... You know, whenever I saw anybody
doing some kind of extreme emotion,
714
00:46:38,324 --> 00:46:45,593
going through an extreme trauma, it's
like a movie camera went off in my head
715
00:46:45,628 --> 00:46:47,430
and I'll just absorb it.
716
00:46:47,465 --> 00:46:50,532
I wouldn't even be paying
attention to what was being said
717
00:46:50,567 --> 00:46:55,075
or what the meaning of it was, it's
just a turmoil that I was watching.
718
00:46:58,377 --> 00:47:03,050
It's a man trying to be like
a normal conservative, you know,
719
00:47:03,085 --> 00:47:09,584
Leave It to Beaver-type dad to make
me become a normal conservative,
720
00:47:10,653 --> 00:47:16,063
a clean-cut boy, you know, they can be
proud of with his friends and brag about.
721
00:47:16,098 --> 00:47:17,218
That was never gonna happen.
722
00:47:18,628 --> 00:47:21,871
I spent most of my time
in the basement just drawing.
723
00:47:21,906 --> 00:47:24,907
Drawing and copying characters
out of comic books
724
00:47:24,942 --> 00:47:27,503
and... and that my dad
thought was... that was nuts
725
00:47:27,538 --> 00:47:32,541
and that reading comic books was
destroying my mind. I think he was right.
726
00:47:32,576 --> 00:47:37,315
But I had to hide them under my bed
and stuff, but he'd always find them.
727
00:47:37,350 --> 00:47:40,956
Man, he'd would blow up, start kicking
the comic books all over the room.
728
00:47:43,488 --> 00:47:46,324
But, yeah, and there was... there
was never any question in my mind
729
00:47:46,359 --> 00:47:50,328
that I was going to be a cartoonist,
come hell or high water.
730
00:47:51,298 --> 00:47:53,133
My dad will get mad at me
and then,
731
00:47:53,168 --> 00:47:57,335
"Only one in a million will
make it in Hollywood, buddy.
732
00:47:57,370 --> 00:47:59,073
You think you're gonna be
that one?"
733
00:48:00,142 --> 00:48:03,440
I'm like, "Yeah,
I think I'll be one of them."
734
00:48:23,033 --> 00:48:25,033
At last I have control
of your TV set.
735
00:48:25,068 --> 00:48:26,529
Are you receiving me?
736
00:48:26,564 --> 00:48:28,432
Welcome to our secret
headquarters.
737
00:48:28,467 --> 00:48:31,435
Thousands of miles
below the Earth's crust.
738
00:48:31,470 --> 00:48:33,140
Shut up, you fool!
739
00:48:33,175 --> 00:48:36,176
How do we know
we can trust them?
740
00:48:40,446 --> 00:48:44,217
I realized that Ren & Stimpy was a success
on a Monday
741
00:48:44,252 --> 00:48:45,614
after the first episode aired.
742
00:48:45,649 --> 00:48:48,089
I mean everybody knew.
Oh, it's working.
743
00:48:49,059 --> 00:48:53,523
Every week, the audience would get bigger
and bigger and bigger.
744
00:48:53,558 --> 00:48:56,966
Think about this, you're working
for another studio,
745
00:48:57,001 --> 00:49:03,533
the shows are airing and all the artists are
running into a room to watch the shows.
746
00:49:03,568 --> 00:49:09,044
We had a bet and, uh, I bet
that we would get to a 4.0.
747
00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:11,541
I was told it's impossible.
748
00:49:11,576 --> 00:49:16,645
And I don't know, I believe it was the fourth
airing of the first episode of Ren & Stimpy,
749
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,218
we got a 4.0.
750
00:49:18,253 --> 00:49:20,286
It was first time
in cable history.
751
00:49:20,321 --> 00:49:22,618
Ren & Stimpy
was just this weird show
752
00:49:22,653 --> 00:49:25,324
that people were talking about
in the animation industry.
753
00:49:25,359 --> 00:49:27,689
And then, all of a sudden,
bam, it was like a hit.
754
00:49:36,139 --> 00:49:38,447
- So, you guys have been Ren & Stimpy, you're going in?
- -Yeah.
755
00:49:38,471 --> 00:49:39,536
All right, I'll see you.
756
00:49:40,772 --> 00:49:43,045
Golden Apple, a comic book store
down the street,
757
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,411
was having signing
with the Spumco artists.
758
00:49:46,446 --> 00:49:50,250
We expected a few hundred people. We got
a couple of thousand people showed up.
759
00:49:54,553 --> 00:49:58,423
We're driving down Melrose
like, "Oh, wow!"
760
00:49:58,458 --> 00:50:02,724
And the line went literally around
the block to get in to see us
761
00:50:02,759 --> 00:50:06,266
and talk to us
about Ren & Stimpy.
762
00:50:07,566 --> 00:50:09,731
Cartoons
weren't fucking cool then.
763
00:50:09,766 --> 00:50:12,569
These were like sexy
young people, you know.
764
00:50:12,604 --> 00:50:17,574
These guys are the best animators walking
on this planet, no lie.
765
00:50:17,609 --> 00:50:20,786
It's like, you know, suddenly, we had like
girls following us back to Spumco to...
766
00:50:20,810 --> 00:50:22,282
To look at the studio.
767
00:50:33,394 --> 00:50:38,430
I drove down to Golden Apple and they were
running Ren & Stimpy cartons on a monitor.
768
00:50:38,465 --> 00:50:40,762
I walked in right as it was
playing Space Madness,
769
00:50:40,797 --> 00:50:42,599
playing the part
about the ice-cream bar.
770
00:50:42,634 --> 00:50:45,338
Everybody in the audience
was chanting along with it,
771
00:50:45,373 --> 00:50:47,439
they've memorized
the damn speech.
772
00:50:52,116 --> 00:50:54,721
I don't know the exact date but it
was shortly after the show aired.
773
00:50:54,745 --> 00:50:57,680
My dad, he called me and said,
"Oh, you did it.
774
00:50:57,715 --> 00:51:00,452
I was wrong. You pulled it off.
I don't know how.
775
00:51:01,422 --> 00:51:04,192
It's pretty weird stuff but
seems like everybody likes it.
776
00:51:04,227 --> 00:51:08,592
But don't do the space ones.
The space ones are stupid."
777
00:51:08,627 --> 00:51:10,528
Did you do
any space ones after that?
778
00:51:10,563 --> 00:51:11,563
No.
779
00:51:12,666 --> 00:51:17,106
I'd gotten so used to obeying
my dad, following his rules.
780
00:51:42,694 --> 00:51:45,662
Vanessa faxed me
a bunch of fan letters.
781
00:51:45,697 --> 00:51:48,698
So, people not only did
they like it and laughed,
782
00:51:48,733 --> 00:51:50,304
they were kind of
obsessed with it.
783
00:51:56,444 --> 00:52:00,149
I was way into Ren & Stimpy
when I was a kid.
784
00:52:00,184 --> 00:52:04,648
So, I started drawing Ren & Stimpy, I
took animation classes at a kid's museum.
785
00:52:04,683 --> 00:52:09,257
And then when I was 13,
I started writing to John K.
786
00:52:10,755 --> 00:52:14,691
I had built him up in my mind
since I was 11 or 12 years old.
787
00:52:16,959 --> 00:52:21,566
You know, he had this sort
of Rockstar status in the '90s.
788
00:52:22,932 --> 00:52:26,307
I had always wanted
to work for him.
789
00:52:26,342 --> 00:52:30,245
And just thought that the... the drawings
were just like really cool
790
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,248
compared to anything I'd seen on
TV and I wanted to draw like that.
791
00:52:35,219 --> 00:52:37,813
I just... I liked intensity
and things.
792
00:52:37,848 --> 00:52:41,322
Ren's going insane and Stimpy's
tone looks really gross
793
00:52:41,357 --> 00:52:43,753
and so, you know, it's perfect
for that age of kid.
794
00:52:49,398 --> 00:52:53,499
I remember one night, I was just sitting there
in my living room and feeling really bad...
795
00:52:53,534 --> 00:52:59,439
sorry for myself and I was flipping
channels and Ren & Stimpy was on.
796
00:53:00,442 --> 00:53:03,740
And I thought I was having
an acid flashback.
797
00:53:13,290 --> 00:53:14,916
I didn't even know
what the fuck it was.
798
00:53:14,951 --> 00:53:20,988
I literally just turned on a TV
and I saw it and I was like,
799
00:53:21,023 --> 00:53:22,759
"Oh, this is mine."
800
00:53:22,794 --> 00:53:25,300
Loved Ren & Stimpy.
801
00:53:25,335 --> 00:53:27,632
Yeah, I mean,
it kicked so much ass,
802
00:53:27,667 --> 00:53:33,242
it was so influential and it was like
disgusting, hilarious, and sexual.
803
00:53:34,410 --> 00:53:39,281
I mean, it's all clean, there's no bad
language, there's no pornography,
804
00:53:39,316 --> 00:53:45,254
it's just that you can feel the
throbbing energy behind the art.
805
00:53:45,289 --> 00:53:47,388
That's it,
you're in our secret club!
806
00:53:48,457 --> 00:53:52,459
It felt like something that was
just ours and it was weird
807
00:53:52,494 --> 00:53:54,725
but like you were part of it,
like you just got it.
808
00:53:58,368 --> 00:54:02,667
My name is Scotty and I'm just a
regular schmuck like anybody else
809
00:54:02,702 --> 00:54:06,572
but I just have a massive affinity for
this cartoon and its merchandise.
810
00:54:08,378 --> 00:54:12,446
These are all new things
like toilet paper and calendars.
811
00:54:12,481 --> 00:54:14,514
These are all the, uh, comics.
812
00:54:14,549 --> 00:54:17,022
These are all the factory direct ones.
Little plushies here.
813
00:54:17,046 --> 00:54:22,819
The Ren & Stimpy slippers that they sold at
Spencer's and they sold them just like this.
814
00:54:22,854 --> 00:54:26,493
You had... had about like one
clubfoot and one skinny foot.
815
00:54:26,528 --> 00:54:31,058
So, I bought two pairs just so I had a
pair of each I could wear, you know,
816
00:54:31,093 --> 00:54:33,764
a pair of Ren
or a pair of Stimpy.
817
00:54:33,799 --> 00:54:35,799
I've always been into cartoons
818
00:54:35,834 --> 00:54:38,967
and I've never had a cartoon just
grab me by the sack and said,
819
00:54:39,002 --> 00:54:42,872
"You're coming with us."
This one did.
820
00:54:42,907 --> 00:54:45,512
I was, you know, young,
just under 20
821
00:54:45,547 --> 00:54:48,713
and, you know, I'd started
smoking weed at that same time,
822
00:54:48,748 --> 00:54:51,782
so, they were quite a fucking
combo, I'd tell you that.
823
00:54:51,817 --> 00:54:55,049
They were playing them all back
to back on a Saturday or Sunday
824
00:54:55,084 --> 00:54:57,491
and a buddy of mine recorded
on it... on his VHS recorder
825
00:54:57,526 --> 00:55:00,659
and I watched that thing
until it was...
826
00:55:00,694 --> 00:55:04,531
I mean, it almost obliterated,
the tape was just so worn out.
827
00:55:04,566 --> 00:55:07,039
You would play... play it on slow
and you would just hit a button
828
00:55:07,063 --> 00:55:09,569
and it would just take you
frame by frame by frame by frame
829
00:55:09,604 --> 00:55:11,604
and there was a different
picture in every frame.
830
00:55:11,639 --> 00:55:13,705
It was...
I mean, it was un... Unreal.
831
00:55:13,740 --> 00:55:16,972
Whenever... Whenever you see perfection,
recognize it.
832
00:55:17,007 --> 00:55:19,414
And they had
their perfect moment.
833
00:55:25,081 --> 00:55:29,952
You know, in 1994, I think the
merchandising for Ren & Stimpy
834
00:55:29,987 --> 00:55:33,857
was like four billion dollars
or something insane like that.
835
00:55:33,892 --> 00:55:36,728
No one had ever seen
anything like that, you know.
836
00:55:36,763 --> 00:55:39,533
This was creator-driven
cartoons.
837
00:55:40,536 --> 00:55:43,768
That whole created
by that being new.
838
00:55:43,803 --> 00:55:46,672
That turned it
into an auteur form.
839
00:55:46,707 --> 00:55:51,842
Before, it was, uh, by committee
toys steered the show.
840
00:55:51,877 --> 00:55:54,911
It had to be a pre-existing
something.
841
00:55:54,946 --> 00:55:57,518
But who... who created that,
you know.
842
00:55:57,553 --> 00:56:01,654
Who created
the Transformers cartoon?
843
00:56:01,689 --> 00:56:03,590
Who created He-Man?
844
00:56:03,625 --> 00:56:09,024
You have to go way back to get
Hanna-Barbera or Chuck Jones.
845
00:56:09,059 --> 00:56:14,502
Ren & Stimpy with, created by John K,
brought that back.
846
00:56:15,439 --> 00:56:18,066
I wanted the world
to know who did it.
847
00:56:18,101 --> 00:56:23,775
So, I elevated the top artists like
Vincent and Bob and Jim, Chris Reccardi,
848
00:56:23,810 --> 00:56:28,747
but I had to fight to be allowed to do it because
they didn't like the idea at Nickelodeon.
849
00:56:28,782 --> 00:56:30,848
Well, Stimpy,
what's on TV tonight?
850
00:56:32,214 --> 00:56:33,752
Oh, joy!
851
00:56:33,787 --> 00:56:35,487
Hey, Ren, it's Commander Hoek...
852
00:56:35,522 --> 00:56:38,702
People tend to think that like if you have a
good character, you come up with Bugs Bunny.
853
00:56:38,726 --> 00:56:39,992
Wow, it's gold.
854
00:56:40,028 --> 00:56:43,091
But look at how many times they've
tried to revive Bugs Bunny
855
00:56:43,126 --> 00:56:45,159
with different people doing it.
856
00:56:45,194 --> 00:56:48,932
None of them ever come close to the
success of the original Bugs Bunny.
857
00:56:48,967 --> 00:56:54,036
It's not Bugs Bunny that is the, uh...
That is the... the golden property.
858
00:56:54,071 --> 00:56:55,071
It's the artists.
859
00:56:59,076 --> 00:57:01,879
I think a lot of great art
hides in kids' cartoons.
860
00:57:02,915 --> 00:57:06,180
What Ren & Stimpy had that other shows
didn't have were these close-ups.
861
00:57:06,215 --> 00:57:09,062
So, you'd have like Ren & Stimpy doing
something and then something disgusting
862
00:57:09,086 --> 00:57:12,087
and they would have this like
weird jarring music like...
863
00:57:14,696 --> 00:57:18,764
and it would be a close-up of just very
detailed topographical look at someone's skin
864
00:57:18,799 --> 00:57:20,601
or a booger.
865
00:57:20,636 --> 00:57:23,197
And you never got to see
that stuff on other cartoons.
866
00:57:23,232 --> 00:57:25,804
It was unapologetic
and disgusting.
867
00:57:25,839 --> 00:57:29,940
If we're gonna show a still, it better
be great. It better be amazing painting.
868
00:57:29,975 --> 00:57:32,976
It better be this great painting
we can hold on, you know,
869
00:57:33,011 --> 00:57:35,682
and be disgusting, you know,
as dis... as... as gross
870
00:57:35,717 --> 00:57:39,851
and we're gonna make you sit on it 'cause it's
so beautiful but, yet, it's so, so gross.
871
00:57:44,286 --> 00:57:46,891
I didn't think of myself,
"Oh, I'm gonna push boundaries."
872
00:57:46,926 --> 00:57:49,025
I was more about like,
"How do you get quality?"
873
00:57:49,995 --> 00:57:54,635
Ren & Stimpy was an anomaly in its time.
He did not want scripts.
874
00:57:54,670 --> 00:57:58,804
Script-driven shows were like
anathema to us and to John.
875
00:57:58,839 --> 00:58:00,905
He didn't want to have to follow
someone's script.
876
00:58:00,940 --> 00:58:04,205
He wanted... He felt like cartoonists
were funnier than writers.
877
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,747
And to a degree, he was right. I mean,
for this show he was right.
878
00:58:07,782 --> 00:58:11,520
He felt like it was important for
him to convey to me my uselessness.
879
00:58:11,555 --> 00:58:13,852
You know what I mean?
It's like...
880
00:58:13,887 --> 00:58:16,228
And I was... I said, "What... We...
Didn't we just have waffles and chicken?
881
00:58:16,252 --> 00:58:18,692
Now you're telling me
I'm just... I'm nothing?"
882
00:58:18,727 --> 00:58:21,893
People who aren't cartoon writers are
not very good at writing cartoons.
883
00:58:21,928 --> 00:58:25,930
It's just like you try to write a music score
without knowing how to read music, without...
884
00:58:25,965 --> 00:58:29,637
Or never playing an instrument
and try to describe it in words.
885
00:58:29,672 --> 00:58:32,541
John's legacy is that he reset
the clock on animation,
886
00:58:32,576 --> 00:58:36,138
that he reestablished
the storyboard artists
887
00:58:36,173 --> 00:58:40,208
and the artists, in general,
as the king of animation.
888
00:58:40,243 --> 00:58:42,276
You had to be
constantly moving forward.
889
00:58:42,311 --> 00:58:45,752
There's a lot of, "Oh, this part
of the drawing is working.
890
00:58:45,787 --> 00:58:48,150
I'm keeping these eyes
but they're too big,
891
00:58:48,185 --> 00:58:50,691
so, I'm gonna size them down
on the Xerox machine
892
00:58:50,726 --> 00:58:52,572
and then I'm just gonna work
on the body a little bit."
893
00:58:52,596 --> 00:58:54,222
And then you cut
and paste into it.
894
00:58:54,257 --> 00:58:56,928
So now you've got like three or
four or five different elements
895
00:58:56,963 --> 00:59:02,197
and then you're using liquid paper and
so you've got this like just mess,
896
00:59:02,232 --> 00:59:04,331
and your pencil would go...
897
00:59:04,366 --> 00:59:08,742
over all these, you know,
levels of paste and liquid paper.
898
00:59:08,777 --> 00:59:11,712
Any other cartoon production,
they would look at...
899
00:59:11,747 --> 00:59:13,714
at our storyboard and say,
"That's a mess."
900
00:59:13,749 --> 00:59:17,278
It didn't matter.
The goal was to be funny.
901
00:59:17,313 --> 00:59:19,016
Ha!
902
00:59:34,935 --> 00:59:39,707
The one episode that I really still think
about today is Toothache.
903
00:59:47,884 --> 00:59:50,652
John was always like grabbing
somebody to go to lunch.
904
00:59:50,687 --> 00:59:53,622
He... he hated being alone.
905
00:59:53,657 --> 00:59:57,857
So, there is this Roscoe's
Chicken N Waffles, world famous.
906
00:59:57,892 --> 01:00:02,862
He came up with the whole idea of Ren's
toothache with the... the nerve endings
907
01:00:02,897 --> 01:00:07,669
and the stink and he's like,
"Yeah, so anyway, you know,
908
01:00:07,704 --> 01:00:11,101
teeth fall out and the stink's
coming out and then,
909
01:00:11,136 --> 01:00:15,369
and there's flies eating the shit in the
fucking cat pan and it stinks so bad.
910
01:00:15,404 --> 01:00:19,142
And there's this giant black guy behind them,
turns around and goes, "Hey, hey, hey.
911
01:00:19,177 --> 01:00:21,309
I'm trying to eat here.
912
01:00:21,344 --> 01:00:23,993
I don't know what you guys are talking
about. It's just disgusting."
913
01:00:24,017 --> 01:00:28,756
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey,
we are trying to eat here
914
01:00:28,791 --> 01:00:33,959
and you stand here, airing out
your stinky old gum holes.
915
01:00:41,903 --> 01:00:42,935
Whoo!
916
01:00:53,816 --> 01:00:57,884
The genius of Ren & Stimpy was how
far it went in being outrageous.
917
01:00:57,919 --> 01:01:01,954
It was the fact that, uh, an outrageous
show could also have so much heart.
918
01:01:05,289 --> 01:01:09,390
And with that heart, you know, you suddenly
had shows that had a balance to it.
919
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:24,911
Yeah, that was a great episode. Um, the
name got changed to "Son of Stimpy,"
920
01:01:24,946 --> 01:01:27,243
but it was originally called
"Stimpy's First Fart."
921
01:01:32,184 --> 01:01:34,217
That drew a lot of criticism,
922
01:01:34,252 --> 01:01:38,826
like, people were like, "Alright,
you're really hitting bottom."
923
01:01:38,861 --> 01:01:42,698
And I remember John saying, "Oh, no, no.
This is... this is high art."
924
01:01:46,528 --> 01:01:50,134
And you're very sympathetic for Stimpy
and his situation, you know.
925
01:01:50,169 --> 01:01:52,939
And he's heartbroken because
he lost his fart, you know,
926
01:01:52,974 --> 01:01:54,842
but still, it kind of
makes you want to cry.
927
01:02:02,786 --> 01:02:05,985
I hate pathos. It drives me crazy
because it's... it's contrived.
928
01:02:06,020 --> 01:02:07,789
It's just like shoving it
down your throat.
929
01:02:09,325 --> 01:02:12,387
Vanessa encouraged me, "Can you do more
scenes in your cartoons with heart."
930
01:02:16,162 --> 01:02:18,195
Stinky!
931
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:21,935
You know, as I say, I was totally opposed
naturally to it,
932
01:02:21,970 --> 01:02:25,136
so, instead, I came up
with a way of making fun of it.
933
01:02:33,817 --> 01:02:38,787
If I'm gonna make people cry, I'm gonna make
them cry over the most ridiculous reasons.
934
01:02:42,419 --> 01:02:48,324
I thought
I'd never smell you again.
935
01:02:48,359 --> 01:02:52,966
And I actually enjoy doing it. Once I got to
the point where I could make fun of pathos,
936
01:02:53,969 --> 01:02:55,769
I thought, "Wow,
this is a great ingredient."
937
01:02:58,941 --> 01:03:01,073
Most of it came from Vanessa,
938
01:03:01,108 --> 01:03:04,208
but she didn't urge me to make fun of it,
she urged me to make her cry.
939
01:03:04,243 --> 01:03:06,012
It's so good to have you home.
940
01:03:06,047 --> 01:03:08,212
Come in and sit by the fire.
941
01:03:08,247 --> 01:03:10,918
If your mentality, like John's
I think sometimes was,
942
01:03:10,953 --> 01:03:13,316
is let's see how much
I can get away with.
943
01:03:13,351 --> 01:03:15,934
After a while, that kind of becomes
self-defeating how much I can get away with.
944
01:03:15,958 --> 01:03:19,058
It just becomes
an end unto itself.
945
01:03:19,093 --> 01:03:22,897
You know the idea was let
them bring as many ideas,
946
01:03:22,932 --> 01:03:28,298
but then pull it back because it's still
television and it's still storytelling.
947
01:03:28,333 --> 01:03:30,399
It's not just gags.
948
01:03:30,434 --> 01:03:34,007
It's not just being outrageous for the sake
of being outrageous.
949
01:03:34,042 --> 01:03:36,603
If it was left up
to just letting it go,
950
01:03:36,638 --> 01:03:38,506
there's no way
it would have been this good.
951
01:03:38,541 --> 01:03:40,915
Hey, let's just hang somebody.
952
01:03:40,950 --> 01:03:43,247
Oh, my God!
953
01:03:43,282 --> 01:03:49,187
Then he goes, "Yeah, we hang nobody in a
long dang time! But who we gonna hang?"
954
01:03:50,256 --> 01:03:54,995
Really with John, you know, probably the... the
person who dealt with him the best was Bob.
955
01:03:57,230 --> 01:04:00,264
He didn't draw on my style
before Ren & Stimpy,
956
01:04:00,299 --> 01:04:03,498
but once we started hanging out,
he just picked it up overnight.
957
01:04:03,533 --> 01:04:06,446
I didn't have to give him all the theories
about maintaining guts and all that stuff.
958
01:04:06,470 --> 01:04:08,140
He just did it.
959
01:04:08,175 --> 01:04:10,274
We were missing more
and more deadlines
960
01:04:10,309 --> 01:04:13,310
and I, uh, approached Donna and
said, you know, "Let me direct."
961
01:04:14,643 --> 01:04:20,383
Bob was the perfect extra director.
He wasn't as obsessive as John.
962
01:04:20,418 --> 01:04:24,255
Bob just wanted to be really
funny and that's it.
963
01:04:24,290 --> 01:04:28,930
Just funny, funny drawings, funny
gags and John could do his craziness
964
01:04:28,965 --> 01:04:31,361
and... and pushing the envelope.
965
01:04:31,396 --> 01:04:35,002
When John and I worked together,
we made magic.
966
01:04:43,012 --> 01:04:44,671
Stimpy's invention
which some would argue
967
01:04:44,706 --> 01:04:48,213
was the ruination of the entire
Ren & Stimpy franchise
968
01:04:48,248 --> 01:04:50,083
just because it took so long
to make,
969
01:04:50,118 --> 01:04:53,086
maybe it was all worth it
just to have that one episode
970
01:04:53,121 --> 01:04:57,123
just in terms of something that
gets you on every single level
971
01:04:57,158 --> 01:05:02,293
and deserves in my mind to be in
the pantheon of great cartoons.
972
01:05:05,133 --> 01:05:07,331
Hey, what is this thing?
973
01:05:07,366 --> 01:05:09,234
Get it off of me.
974
01:05:09,269 --> 01:05:11,335
It's the happy helmet, Ren.
975
01:05:11,370 --> 01:05:16,241
Now you'll always be happy
and this is the remote control.
976
01:05:20,049 --> 01:05:21,345
Free!
977
01:05:21,380 --> 01:05:24,150
Hey, it works.
978
01:05:25,549 --> 01:05:30,453
Hey, what's happening to me?
979
01:05:32,325 --> 01:05:36,998
I think John succeeded in conveying what a
cartoon nervous breakdown would be like.
980
01:05:37,033 --> 01:05:41,530
Ren's having his mind controlled
and it's tearing him apart.
981
01:05:41,565 --> 01:05:44,632
It's part horror story, you
know, part comedy, part cartoon.
982
01:05:47,373 --> 01:05:51,441
Can't lose control.
983
01:05:51,476 --> 01:05:56,017
Will strong, body weak.
984
01:05:56,052 --> 01:06:01,022
For Stimpy's Invention, we've got these
storyboards that were really broad and hilarious
985
01:06:01,057 --> 01:06:04,993
and it was a Bob Camp storyboard and it was one
of the funniest storyboards I'd ever read.
986
01:06:05,028 --> 01:06:09,459
A lot could be learned from comparing that
storyboard to the layouts that were done,
987
01:06:09,494 --> 01:06:11,659
particularly, the ones
that were done by John.
988
01:06:11,694 --> 01:06:15,729
It was like doing graphic
things that were really unusual.
989
01:06:15,764 --> 01:06:19,271
Ren is wearing the happy helmet
and he does this bit of dialogue
990
01:06:19,306 --> 01:06:23,440
and he says the word "go" I believe
the letters "go" are in his mouth.
991
01:06:23,475 --> 01:06:28,049
Hey, must go do nice things.
992
01:06:28,084 --> 01:06:30,414
And I just, I remember
that kind of blew my mind
993
01:06:30,449 --> 01:06:35,584
like that the level of interpretation
was getting really right-brained.
994
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:40,061
One of the things about John
was that the bar was so high,
995
01:06:40,096 --> 01:06:42,558
every time it passed on the
next guy, it had to be plus,
996
01:06:42,593 --> 01:06:46,034
starting from the story moving forward
all the way to the final.
997
01:06:49,138 --> 01:06:55,637
On Stimpy's Invention, John would fix
drawings after they had been shot.
998
01:06:55,672 --> 01:06:59,047
The scene was done,
it was finished.
999
01:06:59,082 --> 01:07:03,117
And John would grab the scene
and start to redo drawings.
1000
01:07:03,812 --> 01:07:08,716
John decided to take the show, all the
elements that we had into his office,
1001
01:07:08,751 --> 01:07:12,489
he locked the door and wouldn't
let it go out of the studio
1002
01:07:12,524 --> 01:07:17,362
until he reviewed the whole show
and did his thing on them.
1003
01:07:17,397 --> 01:07:23,566
It was incredibly horrible emotional time
for about 6 months there
1004
01:07:23,601 --> 01:07:27,405
when we were just skidding
without delivering a show.
1005
01:07:30,212 --> 01:07:34,676
Nickelodeon came to me and said, " Ren & Stimpy
is so successful we want to do 20 episodes now."
1006
01:07:36,581 --> 01:07:40,187
Yeah, that's normally an
exciting thing in the TV world,
1007
01:07:40,222 --> 01:07:45,324
but the reality for John was like who's...
who's gonna create all this stuff?
1008
01:07:45,359 --> 01:07:48,591
I can barely deliver with the
crew we have now.
1009
01:07:49,660 --> 01:07:53,266
I said, "Well, we'd have to multiply
the crew by 3 and some."
1010
01:07:53,301 --> 01:07:54,531
And they said, "Go do it."
1011
01:07:56,001 --> 01:07:59,206
And here's what we get back to what
executives, network executives,
1012
01:07:59,241 --> 01:08:02,605
think makes a good cartoon.
1013
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:05,245
They think it's the idea.
1014
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,523
Once you have the idea, then you can just fill
a studio with bodies to do all the drawings.
1015
01:08:08,547 --> 01:08:10,613
It's... it's a crazy idea.
1016
01:08:10,648 --> 01:08:13,187
He kept going, "Well,
I have to train all these guys."
1017
01:08:13,222 --> 01:08:14,452
I said, "No, you don't.
1018
01:08:14,487 --> 01:08:15,967
Hire people that know
how to do it."
1019
01:08:17,154 --> 01:08:19,534
So, I knew that was going to be a problem
and frustrate everybody
1020
01:08:19,558 --> 01:08:22,625
because I'd have to split
my time now into three.
1021
01:08:23,826 --> 01:08:26,200
My big job was
schedules and budgets
1022
01:08:26,235 --> 01:08:33,570
and getting us on track
and we were way off track.
1023
01:08:33,605 --> 01:08:37,343
Shows were delivering
months late,
1024
01:08:37,378 --> 01:08:39,840
so that's why I originally
had been brought on.
1025
01:08:39,875 --> 01:08:43,283
I think in my first interaction,
you know, with John he said,
1026
01:08:43,318 --> 01:08:48,849
"Oh, so you're the studio hat that's
been brought on to, you know, watch us."
1027
01:08:48,884 --> 01:08:51,258
We weren't even very
far into season two,
1028
01:08:51,293 --> 01:08:53,370
we were already hundreds of
thousands of dollars over budget
1029
01:08:53,394 --> 01:08:55,493
and months behind schedule.
1030
01:08:55,528 --> 01:09:00,696
I mean, we missed the air date for
the very second week of Ren & Stimpy
1031
01:09:00,731 --> 01:09:03,633
and we had to rerun
the first week cartoon
1032
01:09:03,668 --> 01:09:07,406
that pissed off the advertisers
big time, you know,
1033
01:09:07,441 --> 01:09:09,081
because John couldn't
let the cartoons go.
1034
01:09:13,216 --> 01:09:15,711
He told me one time, he was
quite sad about it and he said,
1035
01:09:15,746 --> 01:09:18,549
"You know, I wish you would just
come in here, punch me in the face,
1036
01:09:18,584 --> 01:09:22,751
and take the work and give it to him,
just physically take it from me."
1037
01:09:26,328 --> 01:09:32,563
The whole secret in animation is to get
the director to sign off on that stage
1038
01:09:32,598 --> 01:09:35,764
whatever it is that storyboard,
that layout.
1039
01:09:35,799 --> 01:09:39,900
If John wouldn't approve one drawing,
then that footage is sitting there.
1040
01:09:39,935 --> 01:09:42,540
What are you doing?
1041
01:09:42,575 --> 01:09:47,347
John, he was obsessing up on way too much
and being the bottleneck in production.
1042
01:09:48,317 --> 01:09:51,549
And it ended up creating
some great cartoons,
1043
01:09:51,584 --> 01:09:57,324
but then, again, I know the cost of those
cartoons and it was not just money.
1044
01:09:59,020 --> 01:10:02,659
You know, he was really struggling
under all the pressure of it.
1045
01:10:04,795 --> 01:10:12,306
He became aggressive. I noticed how
he started abusing his artists.
1046
01:10:12,341 --> 01:10:16,607
We would leave at like midnight after
doing all of our scenes and stuff,
1047
01:10:16,642 --> 01:10:19,907
but John would stay up.
The man didn't sleep.
1048
01:10:19,942 --> 01:10:22,613
And he would stay up
going through everyone's work.
1049
01:10:22,648 --> 01:10:27,354
You just have to know
that people were so punished.
1050
01:10:27,389 --> 01:10:32,326
I mean, they were punished trying to
get John's approval for a drawing.
1051
01:10:33,054 --> 01:10:35,395
You would like slave away
1052
01:10:35,430 --> 01:10:38,695
and like you might be really happy
with your scenes that you'd done
1053
01:10:38,730 --> 01:10:43,403
and then they go to John and he was like, "This
isn't a drawing. You got to redo this, you know."
1054
01:10:43,438 --> 01:10:45,801
There wasn't a single layout
I did that didn't have,
1055
01:10:45,836 --> 01:10:48,309
at least one drawing
that he would throw away,
1056
01:10:48,344 --> 01:10:51,279
you know what I mean,
at least one drawing.
1057
01:10:51,314 --> 01:10:54,612
The artist would finish the scenes,
bring them back to get them checked
1058
01:10:54,647 --> 01:10:58,814
so they preserved storyboard expressions,
did they push it further,
1059
01:11:00,455 --> 01:11:02,620
or did they tone it down.
1060
01:11:02,655 --> 01:11:06,921
Well, if they toned it down, they'd
get what people called a beating.
1061
01:11:14,733 --> 01:11:19,802
Literally, like throwing the layouts
out on the floor like, "Look at these.
1062
01:11:19,837 --> 01:11:21,474
This is not acceptable!"
1063
01:11:22,576 --> 01:11:24,807
He had all the
qualities of somebody who's like
1064
01:11:24,842 --> 01:11:27,612
borderline like a Hitler type,
you know,
1065
01:11:27,647 --> 01:11:33,321
like just total intolerance for
anything weak or unsatisfactory.
1066
01:11:33,356 --> 01:11:35,356
So, you know, like,
you draw like a fag.
1067
01:11:36,788 --> 01:11:42,594
I mean at one point, I did kind of lose it
and I quit and I said, you know,
1068
01:11:42,629 --> 01:11:47,863
this kind of criticism doesn't do anything
to make me better, it just, you know,
1069
01:11:47,898 --> 01:11:52,967
makes me hate you and I went home and...
and, of course, he was really apologetic
1070
01:11:53,002 --> 01:11:55,376
and said, "No, no, no. Come back.
You're really important."
1071
01:11:55,411 --> 01:11:58,808
So, there was, you know, there was a lot of
psychology at play with it...
1072
01:11:58,843 --> 01:12:00,083
With the whole thing, you know.
1073
01:12:02,649 --> 01:12:04,847
It was Bob Camp
who I remember the most.
1074
01:12:04,882 --> 01:12:08,785
It was like John was really
treating Bob poorly.
1075
01:12:08,820 --> 01:12:11,491
He was rejecting
all of his drawings.
1076
01:12:11,526 --> 01:12:17,431
He was complaining to him that this is no good,
that's no good, and it was really affecting him.
1077
01:12:19,094 --> 01:12:21,666
Please God, please.
1078
01:12:23,901 --> 01:12:25,406
Mm...
1079
01:12:28,774 --> 01:12:30,103
Mm?
1080
01:12:41,655 --> 01:12:44,359
John did that
to a lot of people.
1081
01:12:47,089 --> 01:12:48,825
Trying to make
a good quality show
1082
01:12:48,860 --> 01:12:51,762
with all these handicaps we had
in the second season,
1083
01:12:51,797 --> 01:12:54,094
you know, I was on the verge
of insanity, I think.
1084
01:12:54,129 --> 01:12:59,572
And they would add these obstacles of
throwing whole storyboards out after the...
1085
01:12:59,607 --> 01:13:01,673
The story had been approved.
1086
01:13:01,708 --> 01:13:03,774
And we got...
Our notes got way longer.
1087
01:13:03,809 --> 01:13:06,447
That was the most frustrating
thing about the second season.
1088
01:13:07,483 --> 01:13:10,143
That was hard for me
because I got a lot of pushback.
1089
01:13:10,178 --> 01:13:15,885
Initially, John and I would work together and
it was just a give-and-take and it was fun
1090
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:20,054
and he would listen
and then it was over.
1091
01:13:23,026 --> 01:13:27,094
Hello, I'm George Liquor,
American.
1092
01:13:27,129 --> 01:13:31,934
We had been working on the boards for,
uh... It's called Man's Best Friend,
1093
01:13:31,969 --> 01:13:36,004
I think, the first show of the
second season that never got aired.
1094
01:13:36,039 --> 01:13:42,208
John pitches this idea, we do the boards,
they get approved
1095
01:13:42,243 --> 01:13:45,948
and I go, "Wait, what?"
1096
01:13:45,983 --> 01:13:49,622
I get him alone in a room,
he's never lying to me.
1097
01:13:49,657 --> 01:13:55,892
I go, "John, are you sure
they've approved this board?"
1098
01:13:55,927 --> 01:13:57,927
He goes,
"Yep, yep. They did it."
1099
01:13:58,963 --> 01:14:01,194
Now, come on boys, attack!
1100
01:14:01,229 --> 01:14:04,538
But you are my kind
and beloved master.
1101
01:14:04,573 --> 01:14:06,672
I can't.
1102
01:14:09,105 --> 01:14:11,578
But I can.
1103
01:14:13,714 --> 01:14:17,980
Man's Best Friend, I didn't like it.
It was extremely violent.
1104
01:14:22,657 --> 01:14:24,085
No!
1105
01:14:46,241 --> 01:14:50,111
- It's discipline that begets love.
- Ouch!
1106
01:14:50,146 --> 01:14:53,015
Nickelodeon is making an
investment in kids' programming.
1107
01:14:54,722 --> 01:14:56,590
You must learn your place.
1108
01:14:59,287 --> 01:15:01,199
And that's to say, when we saw it,
I was just like...
1109
01:15:01,223 --> 01:15:04,565
I mean, it is up there
with Samuel Beckett,
1110
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,293
it's one of the best things
ever made but it's not for kids.
1111
01:15:10,606 --> 01:15:14,707
The executives at Nickelodeon thought
George is me.
1112
01:15:15,743 --> 01:15:17,237
This is absolutely not.
1113
01:15:17,272 --> 01:15:19,239
He thinks he's doing you good.
1114
01:15:19,274 --> 01:15:23,815
Today's lesson is discipline.
1115
01:15:25,214 --> 01:15:30,085
Now in order to learn discipline,
you must learn to misbehave.
1116
01:15:34,322 --> 01:15:36,190
Now you see this over here?
1117
01:15:36,225 --> 01:15:38,225
This is a couch.
1118
01:15:38,260 --> 01:15:39,426
Now a couch...
1119
01:15:39,461 --> 01:15:41,899
After he tells them
don't get on the couch, he says,
1120
01:15:41,934 --> 01:15:44,099
"Well, what are you waiting
for get up on the couch?"
1121
01:15:44,134 --> 01:15:49,577
Come on, make me mad. Make me mad
or I'm going to be really mad.
1122
01:15:55,618 --> 01:15:58,245
What did I tell you
about sitting on my couch?
1123
01:16:00,018 --> 01:16:01,919
- Are you afraid?
- It's twisted logic.
1124
01:16:01,954 --> 01:16:03,756
It's... it's logic
of authority figures.
1125
01:16:04,924 --> 01:16:06,055
It's my dad.
1126
01:16:12,998 --> 01:16:17,770
George Liquor is the first character that
ever just popped into my head instantly
1127
01:16:17,805 --> 01:16:19,937
and I knew almost everything
about him.
1128
01:16:19,972 --> 01:16:25,173
He's a moral god-fearing man
who believes in being tough.
1129
01:16:25,208 --> 01:16:29,078
Tough love that's what it is,
it's tough love.
1130
01:16:29,113 --> 01:16:32,378
That's a good boy.
1131
01:16:32,413 --> 01:16:36,085
It's discipline
that begets love.
1132
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:41,090
In the cartoon, you take real-life emotions
and you exaggerate them.
1133
01:16:43,226 --> 01:16:46,766
I identify with almost
all the characters
1134
01:16:46,801 --> 01:16:51,232
and I try to put something
into them that I feel myself.
1135
01:16:51,267 --> 01:16:53,971
George Liquor, I don't identify with
personally,
1136
01:16:56,008 --> 01:17:01,308
but I identify with having
to, uh, yield to authority.
1137
01:17:05,215 --> 01:17:10,922
He called me to give me feedback
on my notes that I was giving him
1138
01:17:10,957 --> 01:17:14,860
and he said, um,
that I could go fuck myself.
1139
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:18,798
That he wasn't
gonna take notes anymore.
1140
01:17:18,833 --> 01:17:24,265
That he made the network
and he is the star.
1141
01:17:26,269 --> 01:17:30,711
He sent a note to the network saying,
"I can no longer be held responsible
1142
01:17:30,746 --> 01:17:32,779
for budgets or deadlines,
sorry."
1143
01:17:32,814 --> 01:17:35,144
When I read that
I was like, "Oh, my God!"
1144
01:17:35,179 --> 01:17:39,819
And I got the biggest marker I had and I
drew a giant pair of balls on his door
1145
01:17:39,854 --> 01:17:42,217
because like, clearly, he had
the biggest ones in Hollywood.
1146
01:17:44,386 --> 01:17:49,026
We failed at working together after that.
It just failed.
1147
01:17:49,061 --> 01:17:52,931
You know, "I'm going to do
whatever I want to do
1148
01:17:52,966 --> 01:17:56,132
and it's going to cost you
whatever it costs."
1149
01:17:56,167 --> 01:18:01,335
And as an executive for a company
that, you know, I was beholden to,
1150
01:18:03,372 --> 01:18:06,010
it didn't work that...
It doesn't work that way.
1151
01:18:08,817 --> 01:18:13,215
And I just walked down the hall
and tell Gerry Laybourne
1152
01:18:13,250 --> 01:18:17,153
that I had
an out-of-control train
1153
01:18:17,188 --> 01:18:20,860
and that I had an episode
I couldn't air.
1154
01:18:20,895 --> 01:18:25,326
And I have, you know,
outlaw artists on Ren & Stimpy
1155
01:18:25,361 --> 01:18:28,769
which I loved but it was hard.
1156
01:18:35,437 --> 01:18:38,357
They approached me and they said, "Look,
we want you to finish the show."
1157
01:18:39,441 --> 01:18:45,819
People within my studio,
they were plotting behind Spumco
1158
01:18:45,854 --> 01:18:50,351
to, uh, take... Start a new studio
and take it over.
1159
01:18:51,255 --> 01:18:54,487
The network was talking to me
about it and saying, you know,
1160
01:18:54,522 --> 01:18:57,259
we don't know if we're gonna
have to fire John or not.
1161
01:18:57,294 --> 01:19:00,141
We're gonna have to close the studio and I'm
trying to talk him out of it and everything.
1162
01:19:00,165 --> 01:19:03,771
Bob was smelling blood
and, uh, he's like,
1163
01:19:03,806 --> 01:19:06,367
"Yeah, fuck John, you know,
he's abandoned his duties.
1164
01:19:06,402 --> 01:19:08,204
Dereliction of duty, you know."
1165
01:19:08,239 --> 01:19:10,272
When, you know,
we do it without him.
1166
01:19:10,307 --> 01:19:13,473
You know, he started talking
in that... that way.
1167
01:19:13,508 --> 01:19:16,476
Nickelodeon,
behind my back, would tell them,
1168
01:19:16,511 --> 01:19:19,017
"You're the backbone
of the show, you're the brains.
1169
01:19:19,052 --> 01:19:22,317
We don't need John.
And we'll triple your salary."
1170
01:19:22,352 --> 01:19:27,960
Everybody was angry and I... I told them
that I had talked to John.
1171
01:19:27,995 --> 01:19:32,096
I was shocked. I said, "If you do this,
you're gonna be right back
1172
01:19:32,131 --> 01:19:35,264
to where you were before Spumco
1173
01:19:36,267 --> 01:19:40,973
where you have no creative say and you're
screwing all the people who built this up."
1174
01:19:42,075 --> 01:19:44,845
But they went because
they thought of the glory.
1175
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:49,245
Well, boy, now I'll be the big cheese,
even though, I'd made everybody.
1176
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:52,820
All the top people big cheeses,
but not big enough.
1177
01:20:00,995 --> 01:20:03,094
I remember
the final conversation with him.
1178
01:20:03,129 --> 01:20:06,196
I mean, he was just like, "Please,
you know, don't do this."
1179
01:20:06,231 --> 01:20:10,068
And I said, I have...
I... I can't not do this.
1180
01:20:10,103 --> 01:20:11,872
We have to...
We have to do this.
1181
01:20:11,907 --> 01:20:13,907
You're the one who created it.
1182
01:20:13,942 --> 01:20:16,239
You created this mess,
we didn't.
1183
01:20:16,274 --> 01:20:22,410
And he denied it,
but there was no choice.
1184
01:20:39,264 --> 01:20:44,839
Yeah, actually he called me. Yeah, and
he said, "Guess what? I've been fired."
1185
01:20:45,567 --> 01:20:49,976
And... and he actually said this.
"I'm actually kind of relieved."
1186
01:20:55,478 --> 01:20:58,281
It was really sad. I was crying.
1187
01:20:58,316 --> 01:21:00,019
John was almost crying.
1188
01:21:00,054 --> 01:21:02,648
We gathered everybody
into one big room
1189
01:21:02,683 --> 01:21:06,157
and said we... we have to give
you guys two weeks' notice.
1190
01:21:06,192 --> 01:21:09,061
We don't have any more money,
they're not paying us anymore,
1191
01:21:09,096 --> 01:21:11,327
so, it was... it was horrible.
1192
01:21:21,009 --> 01:21:25,176
The hardest thing really was just the
fact that we were having so much fun
1193
01:21:25,211 --> 01:21:29,477
and doing such great work that it was
a real shame that it had to stop.
1194
01:21:30,480 --> 01:21:33,415
The artists had to make
a decision about stay with John
1195
01:21:33,450 --> 01:21:38,189
or come with me and Nickelodeon
and produce at Games Production.
1196
01:21:39,522 --> 01:21:44,932
We created a new studio, in about three
weeks, we put... Put it together.
1197
01:21:44,967 --> 01:21:48,562
And it was just Bob saying, "You know,
you have a job if you want it."
1198
01:21:48,597 --> 01:21:50,938
You know, he would say
to a lot of people.
1199
01:21:50,973 --> 01:21:56,042
I said, "You know, Bob, I'm
not... I'm not going to Games."
1200
01:21:56,077 --> 01:22:00,046
And he says, "What?
Traitor. Fucking traitor."
1201
01:22:00,081 --> 01:22:02,224
You know, just all in my face,
spitting mad, you know.
1202
01:22:02,248 --> 01:22:05,546
And I'm like... And then Vincent, you know,
was like, "Whoa..."
1203
01:22:05,581 --> 01:22:07,862
And he goes... "I am not going either."
He goes, "What?"
1204
01:22:10,289 --> 01:22:11,926
It was devastating.
It was horrible.
1205
01:22:12,621 --> 01:22:17,261
And I knew that it would make me
look bad in some ways,
1206
01:22:17,296 --> 01:22:20,528
but I knew I had to do it, you know,
because otherwise, the show would die,
1207
01:22:20,563 --> 01:22:23,971
or worse, they would give it to
someone who would candy coat it
1208
01:22:24,006 --> 01:22:26,526
and make it into something that
wasn't what it should have been.
1209
01:22:28,736 --> 01:22:34,410
John and I were the best of friends and... and
I haven't seen him since that day in 1992
1210
01:22:34,445 --> 01:22:36,445
and I don't know
if I ever will again.
1211
01:22:39,516 --> 01:22:41,747
You know, I was burnt.
Who wouldn't be burnt?
1212
01:22:41,782 --> 01:22:44,156
You build something
over years and years
1213
01:22:44,191 --> 01:22:47,390
and it's taken away overnight for
somebody else to build something.
1214
01:22:48,426 --> 01:22:51,999
These are characters that you
developed for years that you loved.
1215
01:22:52,034 --> 01:22:53,506
You're losing your kids,
basically.
1216
01:23:16,157 --> 01:23:21,061
It broke my heart. I loved the characters.
They were my babies.
1217
01:23:21,096 --> 01:23:26,330
It just was a car accident for
me and it... it... I struggled.
1218
01:23:26,365 --> 01:23:27,661
I really, really struggled.
1219
01:23:29,431 --> 01:23:35,075
We really did try to make the most we could
out of a very unhappy situation,
1220
01:23:35,110 --> 01:23:37,803
but, you know,
we did get death threats.
1221
01:23:37,838 --> 01:23:40,212
I mean we had to put
surveillance up.
1222
01:23:41,776 --> 01:23:47,483
They sent this card with this bag
over this German Shepherd's head
1223
01:23:47,518 --> 01:23:49,584
with a hole in the bag
1224
01:23:49,619 --> 01:23:56,327
and its snout coming out and a gun down
the German Shepherd's mouth
1225
01:23:56,362 --> 01:23:59,297
and it said,
"You're gonna die bitch!"
1226
01:24:00,696 --> 01:24:03,136
And that was one of many.
1227
01:24:05,272 --> 01:24:07,272
Is there anything you would
have done differently?
1228
01:24:08,110 --> 01:24:09,736
We're back to that one.
1229
01:24:12,675 --> 01:24:14,708
That's an impossible question
to answer.
1230
01:24:14,743 --> 01:24:16,446
- No, it's not.
- Yeah, it is.
1231
01:24:18,584 --> 01:24:22,782
There's nothing I could have
done about how it turned out.
1232
01:24:22,817 --> 01:24:24,322
It was fate or something.
1233
01:24:25,758 --> 01:24:29,327
It's like, I would, you know, if I
was gonna change something I'd say,
1234
01:24:29,362 --> 01:24:30,823
"Let's not do 20 episodes."
1235
01:24:35,467 --> 01:24:38,336
That's not my Ren.
1236
01:24:38,371 --> 01:24:42,241
Not my Ren. No...
1237
01:24:44,839 --> 01:24:47,279
Yeah, it's funny
when people say,
1238
01:24:47,314 --> 01:24:51,613
"Oh, you stole Ren & Stimpy from John
Kricfalusi or the network stole.
1239
01:24:51,648 --> 01:24:54,649
Well, the network owned
the copyright.
1240
01:24:54,684 --> 01:24:57,784
He didn't bring
Ren & Stimpy to us.
1241
01:24:57,819 --> 01:25:01,392
I picked Ren & Stimpy
out of one of his properties.
1242
01:25:01,427 --> 01:25:05,165
This idea
that he brought us a show
1243
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:10,797
and, you know, we took advantage of him and took
it away, it's just not that... It's not true.
1244
01:25:10,832 --> 01:25:16,407
He didn't pitch us a show called Ren &
Stimpy until we developed it with him.
1245
01:25:16,442 --> 01:25:21,577
And the one thing that he wanted back,
like, his fight at the end, you know,
1246
01:25:21,612 --> 01:25:25,350
give me the character
George Liquor back."
1247
01:25:25,385 --> 01:25:27,517
I'm like, "Take it."
1248
01:25:27,552 --> 01:25:31,653
The last thing we want is that character.
It's a horrible character.
1249
01:25:31,688 --> 01:25:36,394
It's abusive, bully, horrible,
insane character.
1250
01:25:55,547 --> 01:26:00,352
You know, later I left, so it was
just unbridled, left unchecked John.
1251
01:27:03,615 --> 01:27:05,648
I mean, there's a reason
why there's a difference
1252
01:27:05,683 --> 01:27:10,290
from the original Ren & Stimpy
to Ren & Stimpy Adult Party.
1253
01:27:10,325 --> 01:27:13,821
It's because he lost
a lot of the people
1254
01:27:13,856 --> 01:27:19,530
that gave those characters heart
and feeling and appeal.
1255
01:27:22,370 --> 01:27:28,539
After losing the show and losing
that expression and I wasn't there,
1256
01:27:28,574 --> 01:27:32,411
and I lost all contact with them, but
I think, in real life, you know,
1257
01:27:32,446 --> 01:27:34,578
that's when his behavior
got really bad.
1258
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:43,521
I had always imagined what
it would be like to meet him
1259
01:27:43,556 --> 01:27:45,358
because I wanted to work
for him so badly.
1260
01:27:48,429 --> 01:27:51,056
To the girls that were in charge
of the library and the fan club,
1261
01:27:51,091 --> 01:27:56,996
they brought me this big thick binder
from one particular fan named Robyn Byrd.
1262
01:27:59,671 --> 01:28:04,410
I was amazed that somebody
16 years old could write so well
1263
01:28:04,445 --> 01:28:07,281
and could express
her emotions so clearly.
1264
01:28:08,482 --> 01:28:11,417
Some of the things she conveyed was
that she was lonely and depressed
1265
01:28:11,452 --> 01:28:13,716
that nobody understood her.
1266
01:28:13,751 --> 01:28:16,389
She used to call me Mr. Faluci,
which was very cute.
1267
01:28:18,052 --> 01:28:24,023
She also sent a videotape of her sitting on
the floor in her room talking to me directly.
1268
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:25,992
That did it.
1269
01:28:26,027 --> 01:28:28,027
He responded to me.
1270
01:28:28,062 --> 01:28:31,932
I was... Had just turned 14 when
I first heard back from him.
1271
01:28:34,002 --> 01:28:38,675
I was falling in love with her letters
and I knew that probably is not right,
1272
01:28:38,710 --> 01:28:42,646
but I was just so smitten by
her personality in her letters
1273
01:28:42,681 --> 01:28:46,353
and then when I watched the
videotape, it's like, "Holy cow!
1274
01:28:46,388 --> 01:28:47,915
This girl is amazing."
1275
01:28:52,856 --> 01:28:56,055
It had developed into this weird
sort of romantic thing
1276
01:28:56,090 --> 01:28:58,431
over the time that I had
been talking to him.
1277
01:28:59,698 --> 01:29:06,802
In some of her letters, she would, uh, put
double entendres about sex and things.
1278
01:29:06,837 --> 01:29:11,741
This is the guy who's been like saying,
like, dirty stuff to me for two years
1279
01:29:11,776 --> 01:29:14,348
and like talking to me on the
phone and only at late at night.
1280
01:29:17,518 --> 01:29:20,046
The first year of that,
really as a little kid,
1281
01:29:20,081 --> 01:29:22,081
when I was 14,
I was still a little kid.
1282
01:29:25,790 --> 01:29:30,595
And then her mom sent her out for a summer
after I visited them
1283
01:29:31,829 --> 01:29:35,600
and, you know, she, uh, was an
intern at Spumco for a while.
1284
01:29:35,635 --> 01:29:39,703
And then, um, when I was 16,
I moved in with him.
1285
01:29:48,714 --> 01:29:50,582
I thought
I'm getting offered a job.
1286
01:29:50,617 --> 01:29:52,144
I'm getting offered
an internship.
1287
01:29:52,179 --> 01:29:53,926
I... There's someone
who can take care of me.
1288
01:29:53,950 --> 01:29:58,821
So, I... I just...
I went with it because it's...
1289
01:29:58,856 --> 01:30:03,089
It's what I had always wanted and
what I thought I still wanted.
1290
01:30:08,030 --> 01:30:11,438
Well, she was too young
and I freely admit that.
1291
01:30:13,068 --> 01:30:15,002
It was a bad decision...
1292
01:30:19,613 --> 01:30:21,679
but she was so convincing.
1293
01:30:31,757 --> 01:30:36,892
My entire adolescence,
so, 14 to 21 was owned by him.
1294
01:30:41,932 --> 01:30:44,834
His work was so wrapped up
in his life.
1295
01:30:44,869 --> 01:30:46,935
That was his life,
so it was my life, too.
1296
01:30:46,970 --> 01:30:49,872
So, it was just like you lived
in the kingdom of John
1297
01:30:51,579 --> 01:30:54,943
and, you know, I still have
nightmares about him.
1298
01:31:03,690 --> 01:31:05,690
I was isolated
from everyone I knew.
1299
01:31:05,725 --> 01:31:08,693
It was almost like there was
this mandate not to talk to me.
1300
01:31:08,728 --> 01:31:09,728
I was sad all the time.
1301
01:31:09,762 --> 01:31:11,795
He blamed me for that.
1302
01:31:11,830 --> 01:31:13,577
"I'm making you happy.
Why aren't you happy?"
1303
01:31:13,601 --> 01:31:15,766
talk about women's
bodies all the time.
1304
01:31:15,801 --> 01:31:18,043
I would cry at work and he would tell me
how inappropriate that was.
1305
01:31:18,067 --> 01:31:22,872
Indoctrination-type stuff, Bertrand
Russell's essays about non-monogamy.
1306
01:31:22,907 --> 01:31:24,742
What are you trying to tell me?
1307
01:31:24,777 --> 01:31:28,009
You know he just really had
no response to actual feelings.
1308
01:31:33,115 --> 01:31:37,018
He's gross, he's weird,
he's eccentric, he's sick.
1309
01:31:43,664 --> 01:31:47,666
And there was a brief break in there where I
went and worked at a couple other studios
1310
01:31:47,701 --> 01:31:50,537
because I just needed
to have my space
1311
01:31:50,572 --> 01:31:54,904
but I came back to him and when I
came back, Katie Rice was there.
1312
01:31:54,939 --> 01:31:57,269
Hey, this is Katie Rice.
1313
01:31:57,304 --> 01:32:00,811
She is one of the young artists I was
telling you about who sought me out
1314
01:32:00,846 --> 01:32:03,055
- because she grew up watching Ren & Stimpy, right?- Mm-Hm.
1315
01:32:03,079 --> 01:32:06,949
He had, literally, flown her out like two
days after I moved out of his house.
1316
01:32:08,986 --> 01:32:11,888
He just started
hiring kids, you know,
1317
01:32:11,923 --> 01:32:15,254
because they're gonna have
that devotion to him.
1318
01:32:15,289 --> 01:32:19,060
Katie is the princess
of sexy girl artists.
1319
01:32:19,095 --> 01:32:21,733
I had matured a bit.
1320
01:32:21,768 --> 01:32:25,836
I could tell that, you know, this stuff that
has been going on for the past five years
1321
01:32:25,871 --> 01:32:27,937
is not normal and so I left.
1322
01:32:33,142 --> 01:32:37,177
I ran and I thought I can't go
back to L.A.; no one will hire me.
1323
01:32:37,212 --> 01:32:42,919
That... that 16-year-old me that could
do anything was just... just squashed.
1324
01:33:07,176 --> 01:33:08,813
You read the article, I assume.
1325
01:33:10,685 --> 01:33:12,883
I read parts of it
and then I had to put it down.
1326
01:33:14,018 --> 01:33:15,655
The parts that you...
1327
01:33:15,690 --> 01:33:18,119
See, I don't want to like
complain about...
1328
01:33:18,154 --> 01:33:21,892
I don't want to get into details because
then you have to drag other people into it
1329
01:33:21,927 --> 01:33:25,698
and, you know, it's just more people
getting mad at each other.
1330
01:33:26,393 --> 01:33:29,097
You know, I don't know
what he's been up to, lately,
1331
01:33:29,132 --> 01:33:33,200
except I have names of lots of girls he's tried
to get with 'cause they've talked to me.
1332
01:33:37,008 --> 01:33:41,076
Well, I've officially retired,
not exactly by choice,
1333
01:33:41,111 --> 01:33:45,179
I still have tons of ideas, characters
and things I would love to explore.
1334
01:33:45,214 --> 01:33:47,049
So, all that's gone.
1335
01:33:47,084 --> 01:33:50,184
It's my own fault for not being
smarter or more responsible.
1336
01:33:53,189 --> 01:33:59,193
John didn't just turn into this... John has,
I think been this person for a long time.
1337
01:33:59,228 --> 01:34:04,803
He would have us over to his house for
parties and he got drunk enough, you know,
1338
01:34:04,838 --> 01:34:09,005
he would talk about young girls
being, you know, the hottest.
1339
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:15,044
I talked to his most recent assistant and
she was... she was crying and sad about it
1340
01:34:15,079 --> 01:34:17,145
and she's like,
"That's not the John I know.
1341
01:34:17,180 --> 01:34:20,181
Uh, he never... Yeah, I mean, he would say
inappropriate things
1342
01:34:20,216 --> 01:34:22,348
because he's kind of
a man-child."
1343
01:34:22,383 --> 01:34:26,957
That whole male locker-room thing, I didn't
take it seriously enough.
1344
01:34:26,992 --> 01:34:29,091
I'm making no excuses,
1345
01:34:29,126 --> 01:34:32,831
it's just like it never occurred to me
that a guy would actually pursue that.
1346
01:34:34,032 --> 01:34:39,772
I think that his abusive nature
and his God kind of thing,
1347
01:34:39,807 --> 01:34:41,136
I just wasn't surprised.
1348
01:34:41,171 --> 01:34:43,468
I was also really,
extremely angry.
1349
01:34:43,503 --> 01:34:50,915
It hurt... It hurt that he used,
um, Ren & Stimpy that way
1350
01:34:50,950 --> 01:34:52,785
to, um...
1351
01:34:55,053 --> 01:34:59,319
lure girls into his fold.
1352
01:34:59,354 --> 01:35:00,760
It was upsetting.
1353
01:35:02,995 --> 01:35:03,995
Um...
1354
01:35:05,459 --> 01:35:07,162
So, that made me sad.
1355
01:35:10,167 --> 01:35:13,806
I got a message this morning that made me
almost cry because of the way she put it.
1356
01:35:13,841 --> 01:35:17,942
She was like, "You are, um, protecting
all of the little girls
1357
01:35:17,977 --> 01:35:20,406
who never put
their crayons away."
1358
01:35:20,441 --> 01:35:22,980
She came out.
She said she's hurt.
1359
01:35:23,015 --> 01:35:27,281
It was very... She felt like
she was taken advantage of.
1360
01:35:27,316 --> 01:35:32,286
Knowing that is how she felt,
what would you say to her?
1361
01:35:32,321 --> 01:35:34,827
I would... I would definitely
apologize to her
1362
01:35:34,862 --> 01:35:39,095
and... and explain that I didn't see things
the same way that she did and I should have.
1363
01:35:39,130 --> 01:35:44,771
I would admit to what I shouldn't have done
that I did do.
1364
01:35:44,806 --> 01:35:47,939
Explain how guilty I feel about it,
especially when she says now
1365
01:35:47,974 --> 01:35:49,941
how... how hurt she is by it.
1366
01:35:49,976 --> 01:35:52,141
I really feel awful about that.
1367
01:35:52,176 --> 01:35:58,477
And I'd ask her to forgive me and
try to explain that, you know,
1368
01:35:58,512 --> 01:36:02,547
I always had ultimately
her best interests.
1369
01:36:02,582 --> 01:36:06,793
What I... From my point of view
were her best interests at heart
1370
01:36:06,828 --> 01:36:08,828
and I never wanted to lose
friendship with her.
1371
01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:16,000
I think with that two words,
"I'm sorry" would that be of...
1372
01:36:16,035 --> 01:36:17,133
Well, didn't I say that?
1373
01:36:19,401 --> 01:36:21,467
I would definitely tell Robyn
I'm sorry.
1374
01:36:21,502 --> 01:36:27,539
Really, really sorry, because I
didn't realize how affected she was
1375
01:36:27,574 --> 01:36:29,442
until that article came out.
1376
01:36:29,477 --> 01:36:32,181
And it just made me feel
complete shame and guilt
1377
01:36:32,216 --> 01:36:35,789
and felt like the lowest
creature on Earth.
1378
01:36:36,517 --> 01:36:41,894
So, I really would love tell...
I'd love to tell Robyn in person.
1379
01:36:41,929 --> 01:36:44,831
If she watches this,
give me a call, please.
1380
01:36:58,209 --> 01:37:02,112
That created by moniker,
you know, is John's legacy,
1381
01:37:03,412 --> 01:37:06,919
but, in the end,
it's what stains the show.
1382
01:37:08,516 --> 01:37:12,485
Oh, Vincent said, "Now the characters
are covered in shit paint," you know,
1383
01:37:12,520 --> 01:37:14,190
and that's heartbreaking.
1384
01:37:18,933 --> 01:37:23,529
Basically, this show's a bastard child and
it's fucking always gonna be.
1385
01:37:23,564 --> 01:37:28,908
And it's still, you know, right up to
now, it's easy to blame John for that.
1386
01:37:28,943 --> 01:37:32,076
It's like, well, clearly, you know,
nobody else worked harder to fuck it up
1387
01:37:32,111 --> 01:37:35,079
and than... than this guy
despite what he says, you know.
1388
01:37:57,334 --> 01:38:02,139
People have sent me pictures of their comics
in the garbage can and stuff like that
1389
01:38:02,174 --> 01:38:03,934
and I'm not gonna tell them
not to do that.
1390
01:38:04,704 --> 01:38:06,979
But if someone is really
conflicted about it,
1391
01:38:07,014 --> 01:38:09,916
then I would say, "Look,
just don't think about him.
1392
01:38:09,951 --> 01:38:11,929
Think about how you were happy
when you were a kid
1393
01:38:11,953 --> 01:38:14,987
and you would watch Ren
& Stimpy, draw Ren & Stimpy."
1394
01:38:16,089 --> 01:38:18,320
I don't really find anything
good in it for me anymore,
1395
01:38:18,355 --> 01:38:22,962
but I don't see why someone would have
to pull out a part of their childhood
1396
01:38:22,997 --> 01:38:24,623
just because of what's in him.
1397
01:38:39,706 --> 01:38:42,047
The show is the show
1398
01:38:42,082 --> 01:38:46,282
and there were a lot of creative people
that, uh, contributed to it,
1399
01:38:46,317 --> 01:38:48,086
so, whether you like me
or hate me,
1400
01:38:49,287 --> 01:38:53,190
I would hope that that wouldn't
color your enjoyment of the show
1401
01:38:53,225 --> 01:38:55,225
because, you know,
there's Bob Camp and Jim Smith
1402
01:38:55,260 --> 01:38:57,392
and Lynne Naylor
and Chris Reccardi
1403
01:38:57,427 --> 01:39:00,494
and on and on, all these talented people
that contributed to the show.
1404
01:39:02,762 --> 01:39:07,138
You know, people don't know all the
different people that came together
1405
01:39:07,173 --> 01:39:12,473
to create created by and that's
how you get a SpongeBob.
1406
01:39:12,508 --> 01:39:14,442
That's how you get a South Park.
1407
01:39:14,477 --> 01:39:17,709
That's how you get everything
that followed, you know,
1408
01:39:17,744 --> 01:39:23,088
none of that would have happened without
Ren & Stimpy and that created by cart.
1409
01:39:24,685 --> 01:39:29,325
The current day examples of shows that I
think were influenced by Ren & Stimpy
1410
01:39:29,360 --> 01:39:31,096
are all of the shows.
1411
01:39:35,102 --> 01:39:38,631
It's ongoing
impact is the way it affected
1412
01:39:38,666 --> 01:39:43,405
and changed the way people who worked
on cartoons, looked at cartoons,
1413
01:39:43,440 --> 01:39:45,572
and you know did cartoons
afterwards.
1414
01:39:45,607 --> 01:39:51,050
It's all there, you know, from character
design, to expressions, to timing,
1415
01:39:51,085 --> 01:39:53,646
you know,
it influenced a great deal.
1416
01:39:54,649 --> 01:40:02,127
It has much validity as a Eugene O'Neill
play as it does a Daffy Duck cartoon.
1417
01:40:02,162 --> 01:40:04,360
It's all about addressing
the human condition.
1418
01:40:16,110 --> 01:40:19,276
And I think
a lot of us somehow do feel
1419
01:40:19,311 --> 01:40:22,312
a sense of gratitude
towards John, you know.
1420
01:40:22,347 --> 01:40:25,249
This group of people,
this thing, you know,
1421
01:40:25,284 --> 01:40:27,548
I would never take
that credit away from him.
1422
01:40:28,551 --> 01:40:33,158
Some of my favorite artists and
musicians and actors, comedians,
1423
01:40:33,193 --> 01:40:38,691
some of the most talented ones just tend
to be the ones that suffer the most
1424
01:40:38,726 --> 01:40:41,529
in terms of interfacing
with reality.
1425
01:40:53,444 --> 01:40:57,347
It's not necessary for someone to be
like that to create great art.
1426
01:40:59,252 --> 01:41:02,517
You can have that going on in your
head and you can use it to make art.
1427
01:41:02,552 --> 01:41:05,256
In fact, you can work
through it with art.
1428
01:41:05,291 --> 01:41:08,160
That's what a lot of artists do
with their pain.
1429
01:41:16,401 --> 01:41:19,402
Pain does create great art.
I do believe that but, um,
1430
01:41:21,175 --> 01:41:25,210
you don't have to keep inflicting pain
to create great art.
1431
01:41:28,611 --> 01:41:31,447
You know, when you make something
that people really like,
1432
01:41:31,482 --> 01:41:34,252
they sort of expect you
to... to be perfect.
1433
01:41:35,684 --> 01:41:40,555
And once people know you for real,
a little of the magic is worn off.
1434
01:41:40,590 --> 01:41:43,129
"Oh, he's a human
like everybody else."132503
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