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POLICE SCANNER CHATTER:
Yes, would you put me outat 14910.
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Be making contactwith the other half here.
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- He's a suspicious person.44-23 live.
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We'll get themall at the station.
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Group of guysin an old Cutlass.
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- 10-4.
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[♪ ♪ ♪]
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- You couldn't be gay.
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It was the worst thing
that you could be.
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- They straight out
would call me -
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you're sick in the head.
You're mental.
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You have a mental illness.
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This is not a normal -
this is not normal.
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You are not a normal person.
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- Our field investigation
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has determined
that you are a homosexual.
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How do you respond
to this charge?
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- We were interrogated
like prisoners of war.
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You know, we were thrown
in the back of a car,
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driven to undisclosed area
and interrogated
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for hours and hours.
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- My war
was within the military,
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the Canadian Armed Forces.
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- And I remember telling
them in one of the interviews,
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I said "You can't do this,"
I said, "This is Canada."
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And he looked me in the eye
and he said
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"We're the military.
We can do what we want."
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[♪ ♪ ♪]
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- Prior to WWII,
there was no security screening
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in the federal civil service
and even during WWII
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and shortly after WWII
there was no security screening,
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and then the Gouzenko
defection happened.
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- In your opinion sir
and in your experience,
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is sex and such things
part of the spying game?
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- Yes, definitely.
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- You know, on Sept 5th 1945
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Igor Gouzenko walked outof the Soviet Embassy,
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he was a lowly cypher clerk,and stuffed under his shirt
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were 108 documentsthat found its way to the RCMP.
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It revealed that the
civil service had been
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widely penetrated by the,
it was then called the NKVD,
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later the KGB, and that started
the whole process of
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looking at the
backgrounds of the people
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who were working
for the government.
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And after that the civil service
was never the same again.
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[♪ ♪ ♪]
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- Canada was very naiveand we thought that, you know,
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who would botherspying on Canada, you know?
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Who would care?
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And then we find out that
there's a communist spy ring
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being run out of the
House of Commons by Fred Rose
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who wasthe communist MP, and I think
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it really freaked people out.
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- The government
responded and started to
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clamp down and so security
screening was introduced in 1948
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and that opened the door
to just snooping and prying.
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00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:07,814
And the authorities in the West
figured, ok the KGB is going
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to start looking for people
with secrets to hide.
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- Like, someone, you know, is
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cheating on their partner,
someone is gambling,
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I mean, there is a whole bunch
of possible ways
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in which someone
could have a character weakness,
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right, or some
sort of addiction, but the one
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that the Canadian state
focuses on is homosexuality.
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- It was the key focus,
not just a focus,
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it was the focus you see.
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The Mounties were,like, extremely right-wing,
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very conservative
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and they just had
a visceral detestation
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of homosexuality,
they saw it as a moral failing.
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- Societies around
the world have discriminated
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against sexual minorities
since time immemorial.
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What happened after the second
world war was, you had
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the red scare, the communist
menace, better dead than red.
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00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:07,340
And the fear that perverts were
infiltrating our military
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00:05:07,407 --> 00:05:10,677
and our public service who were
well to begin with, perverts,
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and who secondly would
be at risk of blackmail from
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the Soviets authorities and
who would then become traitors
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to the country as well
so they needed to be identified
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00:05:18,685 --> 00:05:20,019
and they
needed to be rooted out.
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It was pernicious, it was
obnoxious, and in some ways,
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it was just scapegoating but
at least that was the fig leaf
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of justification that was used.
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- So, I think you sawin the late 1940s this kind of
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social panic about there
are communists everywhere,
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there are homosexuals
everywhere, and that feeds
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into Senator McCarthy's veryhigh-profile witch-hunt
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against communistsand against homosexuals
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who were seenas virtually synonymous.
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And we become viewed
as a security threat
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00:06:03,930 --> 00:06:08,000
for the first time
but also as a threat to society,
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because you
never know who's a homosexual.
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- Ralph showed himsome pornographic pictures.
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Jimmy knewhe shouldn't be interested
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but well he was curious.
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What Jimmy didn't knowwas that Ralph was sick.
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A sickness thatwas not visible like small pox
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but no less dangerousand contagious.
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A sickness of the mind.
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You see, Rob was a homosexual.
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A person who demandsan intimate relationship
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with members of their own sex.
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- So the NationalSecurity campaign in Canada
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really picks up at that point
in time, the ostensible reason
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from the government's vantage
point is that we supposedly
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suffer from a character weakness
and therefore are a threat
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and risk to national security
and should not be in employment.
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We're not trustworthy,
we're not reliable workers,
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we should actually be purged
from the public service.
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00:07:02,588 --> 00:07:04,657
- And at that time, the RCMP
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00:07:04,724 --> 00:07:07,627
would gather paid information.
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00:07:07,693 --> 00:07:11,697
I had a friend that worked for
the RCMP and told me that
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they needed a forklift
to lift my file.
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00:07:14,801 --> 00:07:19,005
- That's an indication
of what the RCMP also begins
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to describe in some of
their internal documents.
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They describe how
the previous gay informants
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they had started to clam up,
wouldn't talk anymore, right?
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Wouldn't give them information.
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Now, it's not entirely clear
to us whether they gave people
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money for information but they
certainly would grill people
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00:07:36,656 --> 00:07:39,125
about, "Have you been
to any gay parties lately?
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Were there any public
servants there? Who were they?"
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That was a standard
line of questioning.
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- There was a
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and The Lord Elgin Hotel
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and take pictures ofall the people coming and going
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and accumulated an album.
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00:07:57,810 --> 00:08:02,849
- When the purge
really took off in 1958,
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00:08:02,915 --> 00:08:05,918
John Diefenbaker of all people,
people forget,
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00:08:05,985 --> 00:08:07,553
you know,he had the bill of rights.
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00:08:07,620 --> 00:08:09,188
He wasa criminal defence lawyer.
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He actuallybelieved in human rights.
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He expressed concernabout this
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that maybethis was going too far,
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and he had some people
look into it but if you see
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the history of it from that
point forward,
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it's like the RCMP
is a force onto itself.
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This was - certainly
politicians were aware of it
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from time to time but I don't
think they really controlled it.
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I think they were told
"Oh this is top secret,
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it's very important,
this is the way we do things."
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- What happened then they said
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we've got to find out who's gay.
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- They came up
with all kinds of indicators.
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- If you wore a pinky ring,
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that wasa fairly good indication.
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If you drovea white convertible,
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big indication.
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00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:07,546
- If you go for a beer,
you sit on the left,
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always go to the left,
never go to the right.
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00:09:10,549 --> 00:09:13,019
Like, the way you sit or the
way you hold your cigarette,
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you know, you don't want
to appear gay or homosexual,
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so you gotta look butch.
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- The one I remember...
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don't sit
with your legs crossed...
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sit like this.
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Don't talk with your hands.
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Don't put your hands
near your face.
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- My old sergeant,
she was told when she was
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in the military, not to go
play sports with the other girls
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because she would
be tagged as a lesbian.
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Apparently us lesbians
are very sporty, I don't know.
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- And the other one was don't,
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I couldn't understand this
until I thought about it,
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don't breast your books.
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Is when you carry a binder don't
hold it up over your breasts,
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carry it
at your side like a man.
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- But in those days,
we had to be careful.
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You know,
you didn't want to appear, fifi.
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00:10:01,767 --> 00:10:03,636
[Laughter]
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00:10:03,703 --> 00:10:05,171
- Having to learn
in a certain sense
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00:10:05,237 --> 00:10:08,708
how to perform yourself as being
heterosexual, at least at work.
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These are practices that people
had to engage in, right,
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if they wanted to maintain
their jobs in the military
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or in the public service,
they had to continue
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to try to construct themselves
as being heterosexual.
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- There was the official policy
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and then there was
the de facto policy.
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The de facto policy
was that if you were homosexual,
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you were out.
That's what it came down to.
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You were out.
There was no discretion.
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And the Mounties gotreally carried away with this.
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- And at that time,I was arrested by the RCMP
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and the RCMP picked me up
and they said that they wanted
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to interrogate me and
of course because I was brave,
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I wasn't afraid of the devil.
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My family knew I was gay,
my boss knew I was gay,
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I was a well-known hairdresser,
and I was drag queen.
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00:11:02,695 --> 00:11:07,299
Did I fear the RCMP? Not unlessthey pulled my nails off.
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And they got me thereand I said,
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00:11:10,403 --> 00:11:13,739
"Is this what you want to see?"and I put down my drag pictures
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00:11:13,806 --> 00:11:16,909
and they said "Yes." They said,"We have a file on you
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00:11:16,976 --> 00:11:20,112
and you're the most notoriousgay person in Ottawa."
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00:11:20,179 --> 00:11:24,817
And they had about 100 albums
of gay, presumably male,
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00:11:24,884 --> 00:11:29,055
in these albums and they
wanted me to put a name to them.
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00:11:29,121 --> 00:11:32,625
They were under
the impression that gay males
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00:11:32,691 --> 00:11:34,894
would be blackmailed
by the Russians.
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00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,865
And I told the RCMP that
I wasn't going to give up names
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00:11:39,932 --> 00:11:43,035
and they said "Well, you're
a traitor to our country,"
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00:11:43,102 --> 00:11:46,005
well I said "I would rather be
a traitor to our country
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00:11:46,072 --> 00:11:47,973
than a traitor to my friends"
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00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,910
and I never divulged
a single name
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00:11:50,976 --> 00:11:53,846
and when I finished
I said "Fuck you very much."
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00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:59,919
- The RCMP would
walk into a workplace and say
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00:11:59,985 --> 00:12:02,288
"You, you, you, you, follow me."
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00:12:04,457 --> 00:12:08,828
And then say, "If you don't
resign, we're outing you.
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00:12:10,029 --> 00:12:11,430
And then firing you."
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00:12:11,497 --> 00:12:13,966
So, we don't knowhow many people then,
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00:12:14,033 --> 00:12:17,103
it would have appearedin the records as resignation
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00:12:17,169 --> 00:12:19,738
as opposed to dismissal.
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00:12:19,805 --> 00:12:23,943
So, that would give you
another whole cohort of people
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00:12:24,009 --> 00:12:26,212
who were
forced out of their job,
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00:12:26,278 --> 00:12:29,415
blackmailed out of their job,
by the police.
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00:12:29,482 --> 00:12:33,252
- So, I was at work one dayand I get a phone call
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00:12:33,319 --> 00:12:36,422
from the commissionaire
downstairs in the lobby
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00:12:36,489 --> 00:12:40,359
saying your presence
is required down here.
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00:12:40,426 --> 00:12:44,830
Two members of the RCMP
in full uniform were downstairs.
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00:12:44,897 --> 00:12:46,799
So, I had a bad feeling.
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00:12:46,866 --> 00:12:48,801
Of course,
I knew something was up.
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00:12:48,868 --> 00:12:50,302
So, I went down.
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00:12:50,369 --> 00:12:53,405
an appointment next week,
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00:12:53,472 --> 00:12:56,942
Thursday at 11
or something like that.
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00:12:57,009 --> 00:12:59,845
Mr. So and So from the SIU
would like to meet with you.
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00:13:00,513 --> 00:13:03,015
And I asked...
could tell me what it's about?
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00:13:03,082 --> 00:13:06,452
And no, she couldn't because she
was never told what it's about,
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00:13:06,519 --> 00:13:09,822
and you're never againto probe and to ask -
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00:13:09,889 --> 00:13:13,159
you're just to obeyand to follow the rules.
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00:13:13,225 --> 00:13:17,396
And being a person who followedthe rules for the most part,
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that's what I did.
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00:13:18,898 --> 00:13:22,868
I went to headquarters
that particular morning.
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00:13:23,869 --> 00:13:28,774
- And they said
"You have many friends
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00:13:28,841 --> 00:13:33,078
and if you can identify
some of these friends,
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00:13:33,145 --> 00:13:35,114
like the homosexuals"
and I said,
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00:13:35,181 --> 00:13:37,082
"Well why are you doing this?"
235
00:13:37,149 --> 00:13:40,052
And they said
"Well, we want to make sure
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00:13:40,119 --> 00:13:42,521
that you don't get blackmailed."
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00:13:42,588 --> 00:13:44,823
And I said "Blackmailed?
Why would I be blackmailed?
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00:13:44,890 --> 00:13:46,325
I'm only a clerk."
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00:13:46,392 --> 00:13:47,993
- And thenhe led me to this little room
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00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:50,196
that he opened up with a key.
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00:13:50,262 --> 00:13:52,431
And I couldn't believe it.I couldn't believe my eyes.
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00:13:52,498 --> 00:13:55,668
It was a little more than
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00:13:55,734 --> 00:13:58,337
a storage space
for a janitor or something.
244
00:13:58,404 --> 00:14:01,840
But it was just slightly big
enough to have a little table
245
00:14:01,907 --> 00:14:04,009
and a light above the table,
which just hung,
246
00:14:04,076 --> 00:14:05,778
you know, like a bare bulb.
247
00:14:05,844 --> 00:14:07,413
And... [Laughter]
248
00:14:07,479 --> 00:14:10,082
I had to stop myself
almost from laughing out loud
249
00:14:10,149 --> 00:14:11,984
when I saw it. I couldn't
believe we were actually
250
00:14:12,051 --> 00:14:15,454
going to sit in this little,
windowless, airless room.
251
00:14:15,521 --> 00:14:16,956
- Then they said,
"We just want you to look at
252
00:14:17,022 --> 00:14:20,326
some photographs, ok."
253
00:14:20,392 --> 00:14:23,462
So, when I turned the page,
the photographs -
254
00:14:23,529 --> 00:14:27,466
were about four-inches thick -
two or three books.
255
00:14:27,533 --> 00:14:29,034
The first book they turned,
256
00:14:29,101 --> 00:14:31,036
I saw myself,
257
00:14:31,103 --> 00:14:33,839
with a group of my friends,standing in front of car
258
00:14:33,906 --> 00:14:35,941
and I think they did this
on purpose because I couldn't
259
00:14:36,008 --> 00:14:38,477
very well say "Well,
I don't know them." I'm there!
260
00:14:39,178 --> 00:14:40,846
- And he began right off the bat
261
00:14:40,913 --> 00:14:42,514
without anything
that lead up to it.
262
00:14:42,581 --> 00:14:45,417
It was
just a clear-cut statement:
263
00:14:45,484 --> 00:14:50,155
Our field investigation
has determined
264
00:14:50,222 --> 00:14:52,424
that you are a homosexual.
265
00:14:52,491 --> 00:14:55,427
How do you respond
to this charge?
266
00:15:04,036 --> 00:15:06,071
But I was very surprised
at the level of detail
267
00:15:06,138 --> 00:15:08,240
that he wanted
to know certain things.
268
00:15:08,307 --> 00:15:09,942
He wanted to know
about my personal life,
269
00:15:10,009 --> 00:15:11,343
he wanted
to know who my friends were,
270
00:15:11,410 --> 00:15:13,579
he wanted
to know names of people,
271
00:15:13,646 --> 00:15:15,314
especially in the government.
272
00:15:15,381 --> 00:15:17,182
And, in particular, in DND.
273
00:15:17,249 --> 00:15:20,185
He wanted to know specifics
about my sex life.
274
00:15:20,252 --> 00:15:23,455
- After I left there,
I was kind of shaking, you know,
275
00:15:23,522 --> 00:15:25,457
I'm saying to myself, "Why me?"
276
00:15:25,524 --> 00:15:27,393
- It struck me
since then that I've thought
277
00:15:27,459 --> 00:15:33,132
about it that, you know,
security requires that you
278
00:15:33,198 --> 00:15:39,104
be trustworthy, but trustworthy
is a product of dignity
279
00:15:39,171 --> 00:15:43,142
and here is something
that robs you of your dignity.
280
00:15:43,208 --> 00:15:44,977
So...
281
00:15:45,044 --> 00:15:49,381
even if a person wasn't goingto be militant in any way,
282
00:15:49,448 --> 00:15:51,483
here was some wayto make you feel that
283
00:15:51,550 --> 00:15:56,355
you were not dignified,you weren't a human being,
284
00:15:56,422 --> 00:15:58,524
you weren't a full human being.
285
00:16:00,492 --> 00:16:02,561
So,
that's always stayed with me.
286
00:16:03,962 --> 00:16:06,131
And it's still hard.
287
00:16:10,269 --> 00:16:12,171
But I'm ok.
288
00:16:12,571 --> 00:16:15,374
[♪ ♪ ♪]
289
00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:23,682
- So, it seems like this purgejust developed a life
290
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:29,321
of its own and it became
a cottage industry for the RCMP.
291
00:16:29,388 --> 00:16:32,091
I mean my understanding
is they had a whole floor
292
00:16:32,157 --> 00:16:36,628
at RCMP headquarters devoted to
this special investigation unit
293
00:16:36,695 --> 00:16:39,164
that was doing security checks
294
00:16:39,231 --> 00:16:41,767
and investigating civilservice people and so on
295
00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:44,002
and I understand that perhaps
296
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:49,007
as much as 90% of their workwas looking for LGBT people.
297
00:16:49,074 --> 00:16:54,580
So, a lot of people's jobs
and careers depended on
298
00:16:54,646 --> 00:16:58,550
this purge continuing
and if it stopped, oh my God,
299
00:16:58,617 --> 00:17:00,953
all these people
are going to be out of work.
300
00:17:01,019 --> 00:17:06,058
- They had this one
program where they would
301
00:17:06,125 --> 00:17:12,364
look for places where
homosexuals would assemble
302
00:17:12,431 --> 00:17:17,469
around the City of Ottawa
and they came up with this map.
303
00:17:17,536 --> 00:17:19,405
And they put dots -they figure -
304
00:17:19,471 --> 00:17:22,241
this is an area
305
00:17:22,307 --> 00:17:24,977
They put a red dot on there,and then they find another,
306
00:17:25,043 --> 00:17:26,211
and another red dot.
307
00:17:26,278 --> 00:17:29,181
Pretty soon the mapwas all red. (laughs)
308
00:17:29,248 --> 00:17:31,583
They had to get a bigger map,
309
00:17:31,650 --> 00:17:35,988
so they got a bigger map,and it was all red, too.
310
00:17:36,054 --> 00:17:37,423
[Laughter]
311
00:17:37,489 --> 00:17:39,525
- So, they
actually tried to argue for
312
00:17:39,591 --> 00:17:42,161
a new aerial map
to be produced of Ottawa
313
00:17:42,227 --> 00:17:45,130
that would be much, much bigger
but I think the government
314
00:17:45,197 --> 00:17:46,999
decided not to fund this, right.
315
00:17:47,065 --> 00:17:48,500
- National Defence,
316
00:17:47,065 --> 00:17:48,500
to its credit,
317
00:17:48,567 --> 00:17:51,336
told them to go take a hike.
They weren't going there.
318
00:17:51,403 --> 00:17:53,372
[Laughter]
319
00:17:53,439 --> 00:17:55,674
- What often would happenin the basement tavern
320
00:17:55,741 --> 00:17:58,243
of The Lord Elginon Elgin Street,
321
00:17:58,310 --> 00:18:00,245
the basement tavern
by that point in time
322
00:18:00,312 --> 00:18:04,416
was actually a major place where
men went to meet other men.
323
00:18:04,483 --> 00:18:07,019
Public servants
and non-public servants
324
00:18:07,085 --> 00:18:09,054
would be using that space.
325
00:18:09,121 --> 00:18:13,492
What became apparent to some of
the gay men hanging out there
326
00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:16,495
was that every once in a while,
they would find someone
327
00:18:16,562 --> 00:18:18,263
come into the bar,
328
00:18:18,330 --> 00:18:20,566
put a newspaperup in front of them -
329
00:18:20,632 --> 00:18:22,801
which was certainly, firstof all, really odd, right -
330
00:18:22,868 --> 00:18:25,471
this person wasn't establishingeye contact, they didn't seem
331
00:18:25,537 --> 00:18:27,206
to want to be there
for the same reasons
332
00:18:27,272 --> 00:18:28,540
that other people were there.
333
00:18:28,607 --> 00:18:31,343
People would
also then realize that
334
00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:33,846
there were holes cutin this newspaper
335
00:18:33,912 --> 00:18:35,647
and that this person wasactually taking photographs
336
00:18:35,714 --> 00:18:37,583
of every person in the bar.
337
00:18:37,649 --> 00:18:41,153
- The stress level
of even going to the bar.
338
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:43,489
My girlfriend and I would go
to the bars in Montreal,
339
00:18:43,555 --> 00:18:45,491
not even in Ontario.
340
00:18:45,557 --> 00:18:49,094
- We did go to theMontreal bar.
341
00:18:49,161 --> 00:18:52,564
If the fire had broke there,
we would have all died.
342
00:18:52,631 --> 00:18:56,268
There was only one exit.
It was an illegal bar.
343
00:18:56,902 --> 00:18:59,104
- And it was back in
the day when you had to ring
344
00:18:59,171 --> 00:19:02,641
the doorbell and they would open
the little latch and look.
345
00:19:02,708 --> 00:19:04,243
- And she'll
look at you and say,
346
00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:07,613
"Yeah, ok. You can come in."
347
00:19:07,679 --> 00:19:13,252
So, it was basement,
but, we were home.
348
00:19:14,453 --> 00:19:17,689
- I was very insecureand it was very hard
349
00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:20,459
to make friendsin the 50s when you were gay.
350
00:19:20,526 --> 00:19:22,728
- In our day, like,
351
00:19:22,794 --> 00:19:26,732
if we clustered
more than three or four of us,
352
00:19:26,798 --> 00:19:29,535
we'd always
look over your shoulder.
353
00:19:29,601 --> 00:19:32,237
- You had to learnhow to behave
354
00:19:32,304 --> 00:19:36,675
and how to dodge the punches
because just for walking
355
00:19:36,742 --> 00:19:40,879
on the street you had to find a
route that was safe for you
356
00:19:40,946 --> 00:19:46,818
to navigate because it was
terrible to be gay in the 50s.
357
00:19:46,885 --> 00:19:49,888
I had a friend
that worked for the Parole Board
358
00:19:49,955 --> 00:19:53,825
and he was like an animal
that was afraid to be in public.
359
00:19:53,892 --> 00:19:55,761
He said
"We can't go to the Honey Dew,
360
00:19:55,827 --> 00:19:57,429
I might be photographed.
361
00:19:57,496 --> 00:19:59,298
I can't go here,I might be seen
362
00:19:59,364 --> 00:20:03,769
and all the gay people that hadimportant government positions
363
00:20:03,835 --> 00:20:05,837
were petrified to socialize.
364
00:20:05,904 --> 00:20:08,740
They just socializedat house parties.
365
00:20:08,807 --> 00:20:12,411
- I think I realized
years after the damage
366
00:20:12,477 --> 00:20:17,916
that it caused.
Because often I felt paranoid,
367
00:20:17,983 --> 00:20:22,754
because, the weekends you would
go to the gay bar in London,
368
00:20:22,821 --> 00:20:25,324
you always
look over your shoulder.
369
00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:30,362
So, you kind of develop,not a paranoia, but a fear.
370
00:20:30,429 --> 00:20:32,698
You're always in constant fear.
371
00:20:34,399 --> 00:20:36,535
- They were trying tolook for more efficient ways
372
00:20:36,602 --> 00:20:39,271
of doing it, which is
eventually what brought them
373
00:20:39,338 --> 00:20:41,340
to the fruit machine.
374
00:20:41,406 --> 00:20:43,942
[♪ ♪ ♪]
375
00:20:53,719 --> 00:20:55,621
- I remember this girl saying,
376
00:20:55,687 --> 00:20:57,623
"Oh yes you know,
they can tell that you're gay."
377
00:20:57,689 --> 00:20:59,725
"Really? How do people
tell that you're gay?"
378
00:20:59,791 --> 00:21:01,827
"Oh well, they have this thing,
they have this machine
379
00:21:01,893 --> 00:21:04,663
and it sees how
your pupils dilate and so on,
380
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:06,965
and you know when you look
at a picture of a naked man and
381
00:21:07,032 --> 00:21:10,569
your pupils will get larger and
that will indicate an interest."
382
00:21:11,570 --> 00:21:14,840
I was shocked. I didn't know
what to say about it.
383
00:21:14,906 --> 00:21:18,877
- This is the attempt
384
00:21:14,906 --> 00:21:18,877
by the government to determine
385
00:21:18,944 --> 00:21:21,913
and find the technology,
or a set of tests,
386
00:21:21,980 --> 00:21:25,817
that would scientifically and
objectively be able to determine
387
00:21:25,884 --> 00:21:28,820
who was gay or lesbian,
and if you are identified as
388
00:21:28,887 --> 00:21:31,256
being gay or lesbian, you would
be either refused employment
389
00:21:31,323 --> 00:21:32,991
or purged from your job.
390
00:21:33,058 --> 00:21:39,531
So, from 62 actually, until
67-68, the Canadian government,
391
00:21:39,598 --> 00:21:42,300
with the mandate of
the security panel and cabinet,
392
00:21:42,367 --> 00:21:45,370
is actually involved in trying
to develop this technology.
393
00:21:45,437 --> 00:21:48,907
- Bob Wake,he designed the tests.
394
00:21:48,974 --> 00:21:50,375
That was his job.
395
00:21:50,442 --> 00:21:54,780
- Dr. Wake was
in the psychology department
396
00:21:54,846 --> 00:21:59,885
at Carleton University
and was a major researcher
397
00:21:59,951 --> 00:22:03,422
who was brought in to work on
the fruit machine research.
398
00:22:03,488 --> 00:22:06,425
First of all he was sent
to the States for, I think,
399
00:22:06,491 --> 00:22:08,894
most of a year to study
the detection technology
400
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,529
that existed there and then
401
00:22:10,595 --> 00:22:12,798
he came back and producedthe special project report,
402
00:22:12,864 --> 00:22:14,266
which they decided,
403
00:22:14,332 --> 00:22:15,801
"We'll go with thisand we're going to fund it
404
00:22:15,867 --> 00:22:17,035
and pay for it."
405
00:22:17,102 --> 00:22:19,838
- The plan
was to show, basically,
406
00:22:19,905 --> 00:22:27,579
dirty pictures of malesin either nude or semi-nude
407
00:22:27,646 --> 00:22:29,548
to other males
408
00:22:29,614 --> 00:22:32,884
to see if
this broadened their pupils.
409
00:22:49,768 --> 00:22:51,770
- It was a whole seriesof tests - were part of
410
00:22:51,837 --> 00:22:58,443
the special project - includinganxiety tests, sweat tests,
411
00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:01,079
word association tests,masculinity/femininity scales,
412
00:23:01,146 --> 00:23:04,983
but the core of it wasa pupillary response test.
413
00:23:05,050 --> 00:23:07,018
- And this testing
went on for years.
414
00:23:07,085 --> 00:23:08,720
Like three or four years.
415
00:23:08,787 --> 00:23:10,655
- But of course,
it never really worked,
416
00:23:10,722 --> 00:23:13,425
they were never able to get
the numbers of research subjects
417
00:23:13,492 --> 00:23:17,329
they wanted, even such things
as the different distances
418
00:23:17,395 --> 00:23:20,799
eyes messed up the technology.
419
00:23:20,866 --> 00:23:22,868
During that period of time
there was this notion,
420
00:23:22,934 --> 00:23:26,671
if we could have a psychological
or psychiatric or scientific
421
00:23:26,738 --> 00:23:30,609
quick fix, it would actually
really assist the campaign.
422
00:23:31,977 --> 00:23:34,412
[♪ ♪ ♪]
423
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,054
- It strikes meas utterly ridiculous too,
424
00:23:43,121 --> 00:23:46,691
I mean, and so non-scientificthat you'd wonder why
425
00:23:46,758 --> 00:23:49,961
they want to trust
the results of such a test.
426
00:23:50,028 --> 00:23:51,797
And yet they seemed eager to.
427
00:23:51,863 --> 00:23:55,000
- It got to have a reputation,
"The Fruit Machine"
428
00:23:55,066 --> 00:23:58,603
and the guy who coined
the term "Fruit Machine"
429
00:23:58,670 --> 00:24:03,041
was a Sergeant in the RCMP
named Vaughn MacKenzie.
430
00:24:03,108 --> 00:24:08,480
And he had a very wry,
sort of a quirky sense of humour
431
00:24:08,547 --> 00:24:11,049
and he called it "The Fruit
Machine" and the name stuck
432
00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:14,419
and it became
433
00:24:14,486 --> 00:24:17,055
And now the name
has lasted decades later,
434
00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:20,458
that's how we know the name,
because of Vaughn MacKenzie
435
00:24:20,525 --> 00:24:22,127
calling it "The Fruit Machine"
at the time.
436
00:24:22,194 --> 00:24:26,031
- I mean "The Fruit Machine,"
to me is kind of
437
00:24:26,097 --> 00:24:29,835
a metaphor for that era,
438
00:24:29,901 --> 00:24:31,937
the cold war era
439
00:24:32,003 --> 00:24:34,806
but also for the,
what can you call it?
440
00:24:34,873 --> 00:24:36,208
Kind of...
441
00:24:37,008 --> 00:24:39,177
the...
442
00:24:39,244 --> 00:24:42,180
pre-liberation gay world.
443
00:24:43,815 --> 00:24:48,653
[People chantingin a demonstration]
444
00:24:52,624 --> 00:24:57,696
- Take this thing
on homosexuality,
445
00:24:57,762 --> 00:25:02,934
I think the view we take here
is that there's no place
446
00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:06,805
for the state in the bedrooms
of the nation and I think that
447
00:25:06,872 --> 00:25:09,107
what's done
in private between adults
448
00:25:09,174 --> 00:25:11,243
doesn't concern
the criminal code.
449
00:25:20,252 --> 00:25:24,122
- I believe that
the purge actually increased
450
00:25:24,189 --> 00:25:28,727
after 1969 because
I think the people running
451
00:25:28,793 --> 00:25:31,963
those government departments
and the RCMP realized
452
00:25:32,030 --> 00:25:35,901
that their days were numbered.
453
00:25:35,967 --> 00:25:40,038
That it was no longer legitimate
to get rid of LGBT people
454
00:25:40,105 --> 00:25:41,806
and they had to hurry up
and get rid of them
455
00:25:41,873 --> 00:25:43,909
as quick as possible.
456
00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:46,711
[♪ ♪ ♪]
457
00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:53,785
- At that point, umm,there was a push
458
00:25:53,852 --> 00:25:56,154
to have women in the military.
459
00:25:56,221 --> 00:25:58,957
You know, the early 70s
when feminism was just starting
460
00:25:59,024 --> 00:26:03,762
to show - to have a little bit
of pressure in the world.
461
00:26:04,195 --> 00:26:06,631
- Been wanting to be in
the military since I was child.
462
00:26:06,698 --> 00:26:10,802
I just grew up with this,
I want to be a peacekeeper.
463
00:26:10,869 --> 00:26:13,004
I want to be like my uncle
in the Second World War,
464
00:26:13,071 --> 00:26:15,740
I want to be like my uncle
in the Korean War.
465
00:26:15,807 --> 00:26:20,578
I just want to help my country,
defend my country,
466
00:26:20,645 --> 00:26:22,647
be there for my country.
467
00:26:22,714 --> 00:26:25,116
That was my goal.
468
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:27,686
- First of all,they want to train you
469
00:26:27,752 --> 00:26:31,823
to become a warrior, to becomea soldier in case of war.
470
00:26:31,890 --> 00:26:38,096
I felt like I belonged
and I enjoyed it a lot.
471
00:26:38,163 --> 00:26:43,768
I cannot say that it was
a piece of cake or easy, easy.
472
00:26:43,835 --> 00:26:46,204
- Get up at
five o'clock in the morning,
473
00:26:46,271 --> 00:26:49,908
clean up yourself,
clean up the barracks.
474
00:26:49,975 --> 00:26:51,876
- You know,the crease in your pants
475
00:26:51,943 --> 00:26:54,546
have to almost cutyour fingers.
476
00:26:54,612 --> 00:26:57,582
You know, the shine in
your boots have to -
477
00:26:57,649 --> 00:26:59,818
your teeth have to reflect
in your boots,
478
00:26:59,884 --> 00:27:01,086
then you know they're done.
479
00:27:01,152 --> 00:27:02,854
If you can see your teeth
in your boots, they're done,
480
00:27:02,921 --> 00:27:04,622
they're perfect.
481
00:27:04,689 --> 00:27:07,225
- We had physical training.
482
00:27:07,292 --> 00:27:10,228
We had gun training.
483
00:27:10,295 --> 00:27:13,698
We had physical training.
[Laughter]
484
00:27:14,165 --> 00:27:17,168
- Well, basic training iswhere you show your capability
485
00:27:17,235 --> 00:27:21,239
of being able
to handle military work.
486
00:27:21,306 --> 00:27:25,844
Because you go through
a lot of physical activities
487
00:27:25,910 --> 00:27:30,148
and also be able
to take negative comments,
488
00:27:30,215 --> 00:27:32,250
just to see
if you're strong enough.
489
00:27:32,317 --> 00:27:37,255
- I handled the rifle,
the submachine gun,
490
00:27:37,322 --> 00:27:41,059
and the 9mm Browning,
no problem.
491
00:27:41,726 --> 00:27:46,765
I went on to winthe Skill-at-Arms trophy
492
00:27:49,734 --> 00:27:53,071
and that was
the best shot in the platoon.
493
00:27:53,138 --> 00:27:55,006
- It was fun!
494
00:27:55,073 --> 00:27:58,376
It was all thata girl could dream of.
495
00:27:58,443 --> 00:28:01,346
Well, a girl who wanted
to become a soldier of course.
496
00:28:01,413 --> 00:28:05,183
- It was like finding a family.
497
00:28:06,918 --> 00:28:11,056
We were like, I think
52 young women,
498
00:28:11,122 --> 00:28:15,260
between the age of 17
and 20 years-old,
499
00:28:15,326 --> 00:28:18,163
maybe some were a little older.
500
00:28:18,229 --> 00:28:21,399
But it's like -
at the beginning you're scared
501
00:28:21,466 --> 00:28:25,236
because you have
no idea what to expect.
502
00:28:25,303 --> 00:28:29,074
Your first time you're
leaving your house, your home.
503
00:28:29,140 --> 00:28:32,410
And people are yelling after
you, telling you what to do.
504
00:28:33,445 --> 00:28:35,413
- I had a ball.
505
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,950
Basic training for mewas a party.
506
00:28:39,017 --> 00:28:42,720
The back of my Maverick,
if that car could talk.
507
00:28:42,787 --> 00:28:45,824
- When I joined I was 18.
508
00:28:45,890 --> 00:28:48,660
So,I was just discovering myself.
509
00:28:48,726 --> 00:28:51,930
Just having fun
and having a lot of friends.
510
00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:53,698
So, that was awesome.
511
00:28:53,765 --> 00:28:58,203
And people, I mean the women
that I share my platoon with,
512
00:28:58,269 --> 00:29:01,106
like, they were all sisters.
513
00:29:02,173 --> 00:29:05,944
- I was just happy
to be part of something big,
514
00:29:06,010 --> 00:29:10,915
I think.
To be accepted. To be me.
515
00:29:10,982 --> 00:29:14,519
And just loved for
just doing something good.
516
00:29:15,353 --> 00:29:18,356
[♪ ♪ ♪]
517
00:29:33,238 --> 00:29:35,373
- When I went to Borden,
there was four to a room
518
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,142
with a little closet
in the corner.
519
00:29:37,208 --> 00:29:39,344
So, you had four women
in the same room.
520
00:29:39,410 --> 00:29:41,913
So, if you're already starting,
you know,
521
00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:44,082
thinking that
you might be attracted,
522
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:47,485
you're thrown into
an ideal situation for women.
523
00:29:47,552 --> 00:29:50,889
To me, it was the best time for
being a woman in the military
524
00:29:50,955 --> 00:29:54,192
and exploring your sexuality,
and the worst time.
525
00:29:54,259 --> 00:29:57,095
- I was quite green, I'd say.
526
00:29:57,162 --> 00:30:00,465
I did not haveinterest in boys.
527
00:30:00,532 --> 00:30:02,967
That I knew.
528
00:30:03,034 --> 00:30:10,141
I remember having a boyfriend,
who came when I was civilian,
529
00:30:10,208 --> 00:30:15,280
he came home, and then we
brought him to the bus terminal,
530
00:30:15,346 --> 00:30:19,851
and my Dad told me -
I was sitting in the car -
531
00:30:19,918 --> 00:30:23,388
my Dad told me
"Well, go to him."
532
00:30:23,454 --> 00:30:25,823
"What do you want me to do?"
533
00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:28,826
"Well, go kiss him goodbye."
"Why?" [Laughter]
534
00:30:29,194 --> 00:30:33,164
- For me,
I discovered that I liked women.
535
00:30:36,067 --> 00:30:38,002
I think at that age
you're still exploring
536
00:30:38,069 --> 00:30:41,272
and still trying to
figure out your life.
537
00:30:41,339 --> 00:30:48,112
And I'll always remember
the time, I was in Borden.
538
00:30:48,179 --> 00:30:54,586
I was writing letters to a young
woman that I fell in love with.
539
00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:58,856
- When the heart speaks,
what can you do?
540
00:30:58,923 --> 00:31:02,961
And it was, at once,
541
00:31:03,027 --> 00:31:08,066
fantastic
but also almost terrifying
542
00:31:08,132 --> 00:31:11,402
because I also knew that
543
00:31:11,469 --> 00:31:17,075
that was not conducive
to a military career
544
00:31:17,141 --> 00:31:19,944
and there were policies -I wasn't quite sure what
545
00:31:20,011 --> 00:31:24,215
the details were, but I knewit was something to be hidden.
546
00:31:24,882 --> 00:31:27,452
- In the public serviceit wasn't quite as bad
547
00:31:27,518 --> 00:31:30,922
most of the time, aside from
those very, very early years.
548
00:31:30,989 --> 00:31:33,591
But the stuff that happened inthe military was in some ways,
549
00:31:33,658 --> 00:31:35,226
sometimes, more intense.
550
00:31:35,293 --> 00:31:37,128
Cause like, you have to
remember, that this not only
551
00:31:37,195 --> 00:31:41,032
includes purging individuals
but a climate of violence.
552
00:31:43,668 --> 00:31:46,904
- We knew there wasinvestigations on the base,
553
00:31:46,971 --> 00:31:51,909
we were hiding in the sense
when you go and see a friend,
554
00:31:51,976 --> 00:31:56,881
a gay friend, you park three
or four blocks from the place
555
00:31:56,948 --> 00:31:59,284
and you walk and
you make sure nobody sees you.
556
00:31:59,350 --> 00:32:01,419
You don't want them
to see where you go.
557
00:32:01,486 --> 00:32:03,888
I don't know why you do that,
but you're just scared.
558
00:32:03,955 --> 00:32:06,224
- I know we hid it a lot.
559
00:32:06,291 --> 00:32:08,293
If they find out
that you're gay,
560
00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:10,061
then they're going
to kick you out.
561
00:32:10,128 --> 00:32:14,499
So, the seeds
of fearfulness is planted.
562
00:32:14,999 --> 00:32:18,303
- So, it was very much
a matter of compartmentalizing
563
00:32:18,369 --> 00:32:21,306
your life to fit what you were -
564
00:32:21,372 --> 00:32:23,341
when you were with your friends,
you were this way.
565
00:32:23,408 --> 00:32:25,576
When you're at work,you were this way because
566
00:32:25,643 --> 00:32:29,947
it was very dangerousto associate with these people.
567
00:32:30,014 --> 00:32:33,318
Just by rumour
you could be taken into
568
00:32:33,384 --> 00:32:37,055
the special investigation unit
and be interrogated.
569
00:32:37,388 --> 00:32:40,558
- They weregoing after their own.
570
00:32:40,625 --> 00:32:42,627
It was internal.
571
00:32:42,694 --> 00:32:45,363
I didn't go out on any mission,
572
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:46,998
like in Afghanistan,
573
00:32:47,065 --> 00:32:50,435
desert storm,
I didn't do those places.
574
00:32:50,501 --> 00:32:55,206
My war was within the military,
the Canadian Armed Forces.
575
00:32:55,273 --> 00:32:57,542
- The military had
internal administrative
576
00:32:57,608 --> 00:33:02,246
disciplinary practices from
at least WWII that explicitly
577
00:33:02,313 --> 00:33:06,250
would get rid of people who
engaged in abnormal sexuality.
578
00:33:06,317 --> 00:33:09,153
So, during WWII, thousands
of people were actually purged
579
00:33:09,220 --> 00:33:12,657
from the Canadian military
on the basis of having
580
00:33:12,724 --> 00:33:16,361
a psychopathic personality
with abnormal sexualities.
581
00:33:16,427 --> 00:33:19,931
So, you have this militarycampaign already preexisting
582
00:33:19,997 --> 00:33:24,936
that purges "sex deviants" andnow you have combined with that
583
00:33:25,002 --> 00:33:27,672
in the military thesenational security practices.
584
00:33:30,475 --> 00:33:33,177
- The CFAO is a Canadian Forces
585
00:33:33,244 --> 00:33:39,350
Administrative Orders that's
compiled in about 20 books.
586
00:33:39,417 --> 00:33:41,486
It's huge.
587
00:33:41,552 --> 00:33:46,424
Then the 19, article 19-20
showed up, was ordered by
588
00:33:46,491 --> 00:33:50,428
the Commander-in-Chief
of the Armed Forces.
589
00:33:50,495 --> 00:33:51,729
Now we know that.
590
00:33:51,796 --> 00:33:54,198
- They called it homosexualism,
591
00:33:54,265 --> 00:33:56,734
sexual abnormality
investigation,
592
00:33:56,801 --> 00:33:59,704
medical examination,
and disposal.
593
00:33:59,771 --> 00:34:02,373
Disposal really
marked me a long time, ok,
594
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,109
because I was disposed of,
you know.
595
00:34:05,176 --> 00:34:09,113
And in this law, they wereputting that for the purpose
596
00:34:09,180 --> 00:34:13,351
of this order, homosexual
597
00:34:13,418 --> 00:34:18,322
for person of his own sex,sexual abnormality is
598
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:21,626
form of sexual behaviour andnot conforming with accepting
599
00:34:21,692 --> 00:34:24,162
moral standardsor constitutes an offence
600
00:34:24,228 --> 00:34:26,497
underthe Criminal Code of Canada.
601
00:34:26,564 --> 00:34:30,635
Voyeurism, exhibitionism,
602
00:34:31,569 --> 00:34:34,739
So, we're comparing,
here, homosexual with people
603
00:34:34,806 --> 00:34:37,742
that will have sex with animals.
604
00:34:37,809 --> 00:34:40,445
- So, I'm sitting
in the classroom having again
605
00:34:40,511 --> 00:34:44,582
a lecture of some kind and then
somebody knocks at the door
606
00:34:44,649 --> 00:34:47,685
and they said,
"Laperle, grab your stuff."
607
00:34:47,752 --> 00:34:49,420
- He opened the door,
there were two guys
608
00:34:49,487 --> 00:34:52,690
standing there,
and dressed in civilian.
609
00:34:52,757 --> 00:34:54,859
- And they said, "Follow us."
610
00:34:56,561 --> 00:34:58,696
So, I followed them outside.
611
00:34:58,763 --> 00:35:01,466
- And they blindfolded me.
612
00:35:02,533 --> 00:35:04,168
- "Get inside the car."
613
00:35:04,235 --> 00:35:06,771
They got in front
and they start driving.
614
00:35:06,838 --> 00:35:09,207
And in the first
five minutes I said,
615
00:35:09,273 --> 00:35:13,344
"Excuse me, why am I here?"
616
00:35:13,411 --> 00:35:15,546
And he said "Shut up."
617
00:35:16,681 --> 00:35:18,149
So, I shut up.
618
00:35:18,216 --> 00:35:22,753
- They brought me
to a shack that I still today
619
00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:24,455
don't know where it was.
620
00:35:24,522 --> 00:35:25,723
- I knew the base.
621
00:35:25,790 --> 00:35:28,392
It's 37 kilometresof circumference,
622
00:35:28,459 --> 00:35:31,796
there was two McDonald's,two golf, I knew the base.
623
00:35:31,863 --> 00:35:34,832
They brought me to a place
that I never knew existed.
624
00:35:37,735 --> 00:35:40,271
- Picturethe straight-back chair
625
00:35:40,338 --> 00:35:43,574
with the bare table andtwo other chairs with two men
626
00:35:43,641 --> 00:35:46,210
interrogating youabout your sex life.
627
00:35:46,277 --> 00:35:48,212
So, it wasn't just
"Are you a lesbian?"
628
00:35:48,279 --> 00:35:49,380
And you admit "Yes, I am."
629
00:35:49,447 --> 00:35:51,249
It was like, ok,
who, what, where, when,
630
00:35:51,315 --> 00:35:55,286
and how you did everything
and it kept repeating for hours
631
00:35:55,353 --> 00:35:57,154
asking the same questions.
632
00:35:57,221 --> 00:35:59,457
- Started off asking
very general questions
633
00:35:59,524 --> 00:36:01,626
and I came right out and said,
634
00:36:01,692 --> 00:36:04,095
"Are you trying to ask
if I'm a lesbian?"
635
00:36:04,161 --> 00:36:07,398
- And I'm afraid,
I'm 19 years-old
636
00:36:07,465 --> 00:36:10,535
and I'm being asked
questions about,
637
00:36:10,601 --> 00:36:13,538
"Who takes the garbage
out in the relationship?"
638
00:36:14,605 --> 00:36:17,475
- "What do you do when
you meet up with your friends?
639
00:36:18,776 --> 00:36:21,379
Do you hug? Do you kiss?"
640
00:36:21,712 --> 00:36:23,414
- "Do you like
being kissed by a woman?
641
00:36:23,481 --> 00:36:26,150
Do you like being touched
by a woman?
642
00:36:26,217 --> 00:36:29,253
Seeing a woman's breast,
what does that mean to you?"
643
00:36:29,820 --> 00:36:32,189
- "Do you masturbate
in the mirror?
644
00:36:32,256 --> 00:36:34,125
Do you use a dildo?"
645
00:36:34,191 --> 00:36:37,295
I'm 19 years old,
I'm discovering who I am
646
00:36:37,361 --> 00:36:39,597
and I'm saying,
"What the hell is a dildo?"
647
00:36:40,731 --> 00:36:44,669
- The questioning said
"Well we heard, whatever,
648
00:36:44,735 --> 00:36:47,905
you know, that
you're a lesbian and you know
649
00:36:47,972 --> 00:36:51,242
you're not allowed to be in
the Forces" and so that was done
650
00:36:51,309 --> 00:36:54,612
and I said "No, no, no."
Denied it, denied it, denied it.
651
00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:57,281
And then
they went to attack my sister.
652
00:36:57,348 --> 00:37:00,284
My baby sister at the time
was in basic training
653
00:37:00,351 --> 00:37:02,853
and they said
"Well, if you don't tell us,
654
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,356
we're going to go
after your sister."
655
00:37:06,557 --> 00:37:08,593
And I said
"Ok, I'm going to tell you
656
00:37:08,659 --> 00:37:10,661
what you want to know,
but you leave her alone."
657
00:37:11,429 --> 00:37:14,865
- It seemed like every week,
658
00:37:14,932 --> 00:37:18,336
every week they were
hauling me into that MP shack.
659
00:37:18,402 --> 00:37:21,339
"Ok,
time for some more questions."
660
00:37:21,405 --> 00:37:24,675
And ask me questions.
661
00:37:24,742 --> 00:37:28,579
Always
sexually oriented questions.
662
00:37:29,547 --> 00:37:32,183
- And at first you say "No, and,
663
00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:34,819
what are you talking about?"
And you think you're real smart,
664
00:37:34,885 --> 00:37:36,921
you think
you're going to outsmart them.
665
00:37:36,988 --> 00:37:39,190
- And then I say
"Why you saying that?
666
00:37:39,256 --> 00:37:40,591
I have a boyfriend."
667
00:37:40,658 --> 00:37:45,463
And I really tried, for the
longest time to defend myself.
668
00:37:45,529 --> 00:37:48,966
To say "No, I have a boyfriend.
I'm not seeing anybody else."
669
00:37:49,033 --> 00:37:51,802
And then they start
"How many times do you see him?
670
00:37:51,869 --> 00:37:54,538
How's your
sexual relations with him?
671
00:37:54,605 --> 00:37:56,374
What's the intercourse?"
672
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,609
And they were going like this,
like, non-stop.
673
00:37:58,676 --> 00:38:00,311
And you're scared.
674
00:38:00,378 --> 00:38:03,614
- And then they start
streaming,
675
00:38:03,681 --> 00:38:06,984
"Ok, you're suspected of
being a lesbian.
676
00:38:07,051 --> 00:38:10,855
We want names of all your
friends, and we want them now
677
00:38:10,921 --> 00:38:13,691
and you're not going to get out
of here until you talk!"
678
00:38:14,925 --> 00:38:18,562
So, you go "No, no, I'm not,
I'm not, I'm not a lesbian.
679
00:38:18,629 --> 00:38:22,433
I tried it during English
school, but I'm not a lesbian."
680
00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:26,404
- At one point, they say
"If you're honest with us,
681
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:28,673
we'll keep you."
682
00:38:28,739 --> 00:38:30,541
So ok.
683
00:38:30,608 --> 00:38:32,877
"Well, I'm confused."
684
00:38:32,943 --> 00:38:35,513
That was my honest thing.
685
00:38:35,579 --> 00:38:38,549
I had a girlfriend,
I met a boy, I was with him
686
00:38:38,616 --> 00:38:42,953
and then I met that woman and
it was just a first-time thing.
687
00:38:43,020 --> 00:38:45,556
I'm 20 years-old
and I'm not sure about
688
00:38:45,623 --> 00:38:48,993
my sexual orientation.
You know, I was trying
689
00:38:49,060 --> 00:38:53,264
to find any exit, any way
that they could believe me
690
00:38:53,330 --> 00:38:56,367
that I was not a homosexual.
691
00:38:56,434 --> 00:39:01,338
That this was just a fling.
A trial.
692
00:39:01,405 --> 00:39:03,607
A thing like that.
I won't do it again.
693
00:39:03,674 --> 00:39:06,844
That I have a boyfriend
and I'm straight. I'm not gay.
694
00:39:07,745 --> 00:39:09,914
- At one point,they leave you alone.
695
00:39:09,980 --> 00:39:12,316
They both leave the room,you're there.
696
00:39:12,383 --> 00:39:15,553
No water,
697
00:39:15,619 --> 00:39:18,055
and your brain just -
698
00:39:18,122 --> 00:39:20,357
what's my crime here?
699
00:39:20,424 --> 00:39:24,995
- If I would have talked,
700
00:39:25,062 --> 00:39:28,299
the interview, the sequestration
would have been over
701
00:39:28,365 --> 00:39:30,568
within an hour or two.
702
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:33,938
No.
703
00:39:34,004 --> 00:39:36,474
I decided
I was not going to talk
704
00:39:36,540 --> 00:39:38,809
and it lasted for three days.
705
00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:43,347
- They just held you
in custody for hours and
706
00:39:43,414 --> 00:39:46,650
just asked you these repeated
questions, circular question,
707
00:39:46,717 --> 00:39:47,952
over and over and over again.
708
00:39:48,018 --> 00:39:51,388
I think what they were trying
to get at was "Who else?"
709
00:39:52,089 --> 00:39:54,558
- Michelle, it's not going
to be a pleasant thing,
710
00:39:54,625 --> 00:39:56,794
I mean, for you, ok.
711
00:39:56,861 --> 00:40:02,800
There's always been a concern
with people in the forces.
712
00:40:02,867 --> 00:40:05,002
How many gay people do you know?
713
00:40:05,069 --> 00:40:07,805
Why are you concerned-
about how many people?
714
00:40:07,872 --> 00:40:09,406
You know, I'm dedicated.
715
00:40:09,473 --> 00:40:13,043
I work hard at my job.
I don't get it.
716
00:40:13,778 --> 00:40:16,347
- I was subjected
to this military policy
717
00:40:16,413 --> 00:40:20,451
of discrimination,
so, as my peers were advancing
718
00:40:20,518 --> 00:40:24,722
to the rank of Lieutenant,
then Captain, and so on,
719
00:40:24,789 --> 00:40:28,859
I was still a Second Lieutenant,
and imagine, people would say
720
00:40:28,926 --> 00:40:31,862
to me "Like,
why aren't you being promoted?"
721
00:40:31,929 --> 00:40:38,102
So, it also had this kind of
de facto way of outing you,
722
00:40:38,169 --> 00:40:42,807
if for no other reason,
if someone didn't know
723
00:40:42,873 --> 00:40:46,143
about your sexual orientation,
if you were just frozen at rank,
724
00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:49,814
I mean,
it was kind of a known thing.
725
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,986
So, it was so humiliating
to be so dedicated
726
00:40:56,053 --> 00:40:58,489
and yet
so discriminated against.
727
00:40:58,889 --> 00:41:01,692
- By doing what you've
done to me does not encourage
728
00:41:01,759 --> 00:41:03,527
anybody to come forward.
729
00:41:03,594 --> 00:41:05,095
In fact, they've gone
in the closet deeper.
730
00:41:05,162 --> 00:41:07,498
They know what
I've gone through.
731
00:41:08,632 --> 00:41:11,435
- And finally,
the last question they asked was
732
00:41:11,502 --> 00:41:13,504
"How do you
make love to a woman?"
733
00:41:13,571 --> 00:41:16,073
And I got pissed and I told him
"Bring me your wife
734
00:41:16,140 --> 00:41:18,075
and I'll show you."
735
00:41:18,142 --> 00:41:20,244
And that was the end
of the interview.
736
00:41:20,911 --> 00:41:25,082
- And I mean,
they would read people's mails,
737
00:41:25,149 --> 00:41:28,118
they would tap phones,they would do everything
738
00:41:28,185 --> 00:41:34,625
that you can imagine a spy unitwould do just to entrap someone
739
00:41:34,692 --> 00:41:36,994
who was gay or lesbian.
740
00:41:37,061 --> 00:41:42,066
Because they wanted
to find out if they were -
741
00:41:42,132 --> 00:41:44,969
there was always this myth
that the reason
742
00:41:45,035 --> 00:41:46,971
that lesbians and gays
can't be in the military
743
00:41:47,037 --> 00:41:50,641
was because they were
susceptible to blackmail.
744
00:41:50,708 --> 00:41:53,978
This was their main reasoning.
745
00:41:54,044 --> 00:41:57,815
And yet, I had more men
come onto me in the military,
746
00:41:57,882 --> 00:42:00,451
then I certainly did
women, I mean,
747
00:42:00,517 --> 00:42:03,187
women were too afraid
to act on this stuff.
748
00:42:03,254 --> 00:42:09,226
So, I mean, I was more harassed,
with you know, married men,
749
00:42:09,293 --> 00:42:12,196
married men were more
susceptible to blackmail
750
00:42:12,263 --> 00:42:15,199
than lesbians and gays were.
751
00:42:15,766 --> 00:42:19,470
- You'd have to understandthe types of questions,
752
00:42:19,536 --> 00:42:21,705
the insistency,the repetition of it.
753
00:42:21,772 --> 00:42:24,541
They psychologically werebreaking these people down.
754
00:42:24,608 --> 00:42:26,844
They would
repeatedly ask questions,
755
00:42:26,911 --> 00:42:29,580
like the same questions,
the degrading questions,
756
00:42:29,647 --> 00:42:31,548
over and over and over again,
757
00:42:31,615 --> 00:42:33,117
and it wouldn't be just
for one day, it would be
758
00:42:33,183 --> 00:42:37,554
for multiple days, continuously,
and if you put yourself
759
00:42:37,621 --> 00:42:42,126
in any foot of an 18,
20-year-old, 25-year-old person,
760
00:42:42,192 --> 00:42:44,595
if you just imagine
pulling one off the street today
761
00:42:44,662 --> 00:42:47,064
and sticking them
into a small room, I think,
762
00:42:47,131 --> 00:42:50,234
and doing that to them, I think,
we would call it torture today.
763
00:42:50,301 --> 00:42:52,970
- Back in the 70s
they used to punch us like this,
764
00:42:53,037 --> 00:42:57,741
a lot, at basic training,
during parade practice.
765
00:42:57,808 --> 00:43:00,644
Your feet were not perfect,
so they would go like this
766
00:43:00,711 --> 00:43:04,815
and at night you would count
all the bruises, you know.
767
00:43:04,882 --> 00:43:07,918
Or they would hit your leg
with their pace stick
768
00:43:07,985 --> 00:43:10,554
because your feet
were not perfectly placed,
769
00:43:10,621 --> 00:43:12,623
but, not more than this.
770
00:43:12,690 --> 00:43:16,760
So this guy pointed at me
for two and half hours,
771
00:43:16,827 --> 00:43:18,662
with a big light in my face,
772
00:43:18,729 --> 00:43:21,031
then they played
good cop, bad cop.
773
00:43:21,098 --> 00:43:27,404
I am almost an MP, so, I've
learned all those techniques.
774
00:43:27,471 --> 00:43:29,106
- "You can't do this to me."
775
00:43:29,173 --> 00:43:30,774
That was not part
of that culture.
776
00:43:30,841 --> 00:43:33,143
It still isn't today.
"You can't do this to me."
777
00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:36,580
It's that underlying ideology
that the military can do
778
00:43:36,647 --> 00:43:38,015
what they want,
anytime that they want,
779
00:43:38,082 --> 00:43:42,152
that 24 and 7 for national
security is sort of the ideology
780
00:43:42,219 --> 00:43:43,821
that underlines everything.
781
00:43:43,887 --> 00:43:45,889
- And I remember telling them
in one of the interviews,
782
00:43:45,956 --> 00:43:49,193
I said "You can't do this."
I said "This is Canada."
783
00:43:49,259 --> 00:43:50,661
And he looked me in the eye
and he said
784
00:43:50,728 --> 00:43:53,263
"We're the military,
we can do what we want."
785
00:43:53,897 --> 00:43:58,135
- I was not really strong.So, I was very intimidated.
786
00:43:58,202 --> 00:44:01,305
So, I was not the one saying
"Hey, how did you find out?
787
00:44:01,372 --> 00:44:04,041
Do you have proof?"
Or anything like that.
788
00:44:04,108 --> 00:44:06,643
I didn't know
how to defend myself.
789
00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:09,680
I didn't have a lawyer
to defend me beside me.
790
00:44:09,747 --> 00:44:12,149
They did everything against
the law when you think about it
791
00:44:12,216 --> 00:44:15,285
because you're supposed
to have someone that helps you,
792
00:44:15,352 --> 00:44:17,154
you know, with your rights.
793
00:44:17,221 --> 00:44:19,056
- I think
what people need to remember
794
00:44:19,123 --> 00:44:24,161
is how young these people were.
They were 18, 19, 20 years-old.
795
00:44:24,228 --> 00:44:29,299
They were very young people.
They were a long way from home.
796
00:44:29,366 --> 00:44:31,802
- And when you feel they know -
I remember
797
00:44:31,869 --> 00:44:34,371
I looked at the wall
and I said "I'm giving up.
798
00:44:34,438 --> 00:44:37,174
I'm telling them, I am gay."
799
00:44:37,241 --> 00:44:41,245
Yes, and I remember saying
" Pis? Whatever."
800
00:44:41,311 --> 00:44:42,780
I'll take the consequences.
801
00:44:42,846 --> 00:44:46,016
But right then I thought the
consequences will be nothing.
802
00:44:46,083 --> 00:44:48,285
I'm a good soldier,
I do everything the way
803
00:44:48,352 --> 00:44:50,687
I'm supposed to.
Nothing will happen.
804
00:44:50,754 --> 00:44:52,289
You don't know the future.
805
00:44:52,356 --> 00:44:54,258
So, I gave up,
I told them the truth,
806
00:44:54,324 --> 00:44:56,794
and when you
tell them the truth,
807
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:58,762
you can't untruth.
808
00:44:58,829 --> 00:45:02,766
- They started asking me
about other young women
809
00:45:02,833 --> 00:45:06,670
that I knew that were lesbian.
810
00:45:06,737 --> 00:45:10,074
And they go through
every single one of them.
811
00:45:10,941 --> 00:45:13,811
- I did fail
the lie detector test.
812
00:45:14,878 --> 00:45:16,914
They pointed out to me
that I had failed it
813
00:45:16,980 --> 00:45:20,350
and then I wasn't telling them
the name of the people
814
00:45:20,417 --> 00:45:22,820
so they just
threw this piece of paper,
815
00:45:22,886 --> 00:45:26,657
a pad and a pen
and told me to write names.
816
00:45:26,723 --> 00:45:28,959
And I just wrote names.
Any name.
817
00:45:30,861 --> 00:45:32,963
Didn't necessarily mean
they were on the base.
818
00:45:33,030 --> 00:45:35,332
It was just any name
that came up to my mind.
819
00:45:35,399 --> 00:45:36,800
Nobody in particular.
820
00:45:36,867 --> 00:45:38,135
- The main thing they wanted,
821
00:45:38,202 --> 00:45:39,670
they wanted names
of other people.
822
00:45:39,736 --> 00:45:41,405
And when they asked if I knew,
I said yes and they got out
823
00:45:41,472 --> 00:45:44,374
a piece of paper and a pen
and I said "You've got me,
824
00:45:44,441 --> 00:45:46,276
you're not getting anyone else."
825
00:45:46,343 --> 00:45:47,945
Like, I didn't want
to take other people down.
826
00:45:48,011 --> 00:45:51,014
I did not
want to be the cause...
827
00:45:56,954 --> 00:45:59,857
I didn't want to be the one,
828
00:45:59,923 --> 00:46:02,359
the reason, I didn't want
to lead them to anyone else.
829
00:46:03,060 --> 00:46:07,931
- But for me to be in that room,
somebody had to talk,
830
00:46:07,998 --> 00:46:10,200
so that they would
come and get me.
831
00:46:12,102 --> 00:46:16,173
So, they were suspicious
already that I'm gay.
832
00:46:17,407 --> 00:46:21,879
- CFAO 19-20 gave them
all the right to do anything
833
00:46:21,945 --> 00:46:24,348
to detect us and kick us out.
834
00:46:25,482 --> 00:46:27,017
- They know everything.
835
00:46:27,084 --> 00:46:29,319
Who you're with,
what you said, where you went.
836
00:46:29,386 --> 00:46:33,123
Every single second
of your life, they know.
837
00:46:34,324 --> 00:46:38,262
- The three questions
were "Are you homosexual?
838
00:46:38,328 --> 00:46:42,366
Are you bisexual?
Or are you heterosexual?"
839
00:46:42,432 --> 00:46:46,170
And I said "Well, you and the
military police and the SIU
840
00:46:46,236 --> 00:46:51,208
have all been investigating me
now for six months.
841
00:46:51,275 --> 00:46:53,377
You know what I am."
842
00:46:53,443 --> 00:46:57,014
- We were all being purged,
they were looking at us.
843
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,249
It was chase of the queers.
844
00:46:59,316 --> 00:47:02,119
- And then they start reading
845
00:47:02,186 --> 00:47:05,255
the last month of my life.
846
00:47:05,322 --> 00:47:10,060
They followed me
for a whole month.
847
00:47:10,127 --> 00:47:16,466
- They told me that I was
a lesbian, and that there was
848
00:47:16,533 --> 00:47:20,971
no place in the military
for people like me.
849
00:47:21,038 --> 00:47:22,806
- So,
850
00:47:21,038 --> 00:47:22,806
they followed me in Toronto,
851
00:47:22,873 --> 00:47:27,978
they told me the hotel name,
my room number, who I was with.
852
00:47:30,314 --> 00:47:32,950
So, I knew I was done.
I knew I was done.
853
00:47:33,450 --> 00:47:38,255
- It was like a movie.
It was like a movie.
854
00:47:39,923 --> 00:47:44,228
But in the movies,
they take actors.
855
00:47:45,963 --> 00:47:48,565
They don't use teenagers.
856
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:56,139
I was a teenager, I was a kid.
857
00:47:58,275 --> 00:48:00,444
- And at that moment,I cracked,
858
00:48:00,510 --> 00:48:03,580
I cried,
I was shaking like this,
859
00:48:03,647 --> 00:48:06,083
I couldn't believe
my life was over.
860
00:48:07,517 --> 00:48:10,954
I cried so much,
that the medics said
861
00:48:11,021 --> 00:48:13,924
"We cannot release her today,
she's in shock."
862
00:48:15,292 --> 00:48:17,361
So she said
"We'll take care of her,
863
00:48:17,427 --> 00:48:21,298
and we'll let you know
when she can be released."
864
00:48:21,365 --> 00:48:25,469
So, I trusted her,
so I followed her, figured that
865
00:48:25,535 --> 00:48:30,007
they were going to take me in
the hospital for a day or two,
866
00:48:30,073 --> 00:48:32,442
the time that I calm down.
867
00:48:33,644 --> 00:48:39,049
But we ended up in St-Joseph
Hospital, in psychiatry.
868
00:48:40,217 --> 00:48:43,220
[♪ ♪ ♪]
869
00:48:45,389 --> 00:48:47,391
- He said you'll have to gosee the psychologist,
870
00:48:47,457 --> 00:48:49,092
on a regular basis,
871
00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:51,695
and then
we'll determine from there.
872
00:48:52,562 --> 00:48:55,032
So, they kept sending me
there once a month.
873
00:48:56,366 --> 00:48:58,302
- The next thing
they did was ask me
874
00:48:58,368 --> 00:49:00,937
if I was willing
to take rehabilitation.
875
00:49:02,372 --> 00:49:05,409
And I thought, hmm...
876
00:49:05,475 --> 00:49:08,378
is that
going to be shock treatment?
877
00:49:08,445 --> 00:49:11,648
And he goes "We're not here
to discuss treatment,
878
00:49:11,715 --> 00:49:14,451
are you willing
to take rehabilitation?"
879
00:49:14,518 --> 00:49:16,486
I said "Well, I'm not sick."
880
00:49:18,021 --> 00:49:24,027
- Schizophrenia,
personality disorder,
881
00:49:24,094 --> 00:49:27,331
borderline disorder,
882
00:49:27,397 --> 00:49:33,003
latent adjustment
to adolescence.
883
00:49:34,171 --> 00:49:37,441
- All I remember
is getting a shot,
884
00:49:37,507 --> 00:49:40,444
and after that it's blur
for two and half months.
885
00:49:42,012 --> 00:49:44,748
[♪ ♪ ♪]
886
00:49:51,154 --> 00:49:54,024
- I had
two stays on the psych ward.
887
00:49:54,091 --> 00:49:56,360
The first time
took maybe 30-some days
888
00:49:56,426 --> 00:50:00,464
and after that 85-days,
or 84-days.
889
00:50:00,530 --> 00:50:02,766
So, five...
890
00:50:03,500 --> 00:50:09,272
five electroshock treatments
were given to me.
891
00:50:11,341 --> 00:50:13,543
And another five.
892
00:50:13,610 --> 00:50:19,416
Five of them have been
documented on the medical file.
893
00:50:19,483 --> 00:50:21,518
They omitted the five others.
894
00:50:21,585 --> 00:50:24,988
- So, I stayed in psychiatry
and days went by
895
00:50:25,055 --> 00:50:32,262
and days went by, and one day
in March, my partner showed up
896
00:50:32,329 --> 00:50:36,666
and he says "Lucie,
they want to release you today,
897
00:50:36,733 --> 00:50:38,168
so I'm here to get you."
898
00:50:38,235 --> 00:50:41,104
I said
"Just get me out of here."
899
00:50:41,171 --> 00:50:42,672
So,
I had to put my uniform back
900
00:50:42,739 --> 00:50:46,109
because
I got in there in uniform.
901
00:50:46,176 --> 00:50:50,781
So, I put my uniform back, sign
all the paper, and walked out.
902
00:50:51,481 --> 00:50:52,983
- I still have the letter saying
903
00:50:53,049 --> 00:50:56,753
he diagnosed homosexuality and
904
00:50:56,820 --> 00:50:59,990
thereforeI could not be rehabilitated.
905
00:51:00,056 --> 00:51:03,660
That my releaseunder CFAO 19-20,
906
00:51:03,727 --> 00:51:08,265
was fully...
how do you call that?
907
00:51:08,331 --> 00:51:10,133
It was fully confirmed.
908
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:16,373
- 1989 I was released
honourably by the military,
909
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,744
as being, I really
have to get this correct
910
00:51:20,811 --> 00:51:23,613
because it's so outrageous:
911
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,618
Not advantageously employable
due to homosexuality.
912
00:51:29,152 --> 00:51:34,357
- The release
orderly room was busy and so,
913
00:51:34,424 --> 00:51:36,827
they asked me
to type up my own release docs.
914
00:51:37,828 --> 00:51:41,264
- WhileI was being investigated,
915
00:51:41,331 --> 00:51:44,501
I was up for promotion
916
00:51:44,568 --> 00:51:48,738
and I was calledinto my Sergeant's office
917
00:51:48,805 --> 00:51:55,212
and the Sergeant had all
the promotions piled up there,
918
00:51:55,278 --> 00:51:56,780
mine on top.
919
00:51:58,114 --> 00:52:01,852
He says "You're being promoted,
congratulations!"
920
00:52:06,656 --> 00:52:10,293
But picked up the promotion
921
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,063
and ripped it up in my face
922
00:52:13,129 --> 00:52:16,766
and said "You won't be needing
this where you're going."
923
00:52:20,337 --> 00:52:22,072
- So we get to headquarters
924
00:52:22,138 --> 00:52:24,341
and everything was done,
925
00:52:24,407 --> 00:52:27,377
all the paperwork was done,
all I had to do,
926
00:52:27,444 --> 00:52:31,348
sign here, sign here, sign here,
927
00:52:31,414 --> 00:52:34,417
but I was paraded
from office to office
928
00:52:34,484 --> 00:52:37,554
because everybody now,
everybody knows,
929
00:52:37,621 --> 00:52:42,192
I'm being released
under the CFAO 19-20.
930
00:52:42,259 --> 00:52:44,828
So, it felt like, like,
931
00:52:44,895 --> 00:52:46,863
I felt like shit.
932
00:52:46,930 --> 00:52:51,368
Being paraded like this from
office to office to do "my out",
933
00:52:51,434 --> 00:52:53,303
my clearing out.
934
00:52:53,370 --> 00:52:57,507
So, once it was done,
I had to stop at the MP station
935
00:52:57,574 --> 00:53:02,379
to give back my badge,
and that was the worst thing.
936
00:53:02,445 --> 00:53:06,850
I started crying so much,
and I have to give to
937
00:53:06,917 --> 00:53:11,221
the Warrant Officer my badge,
938
00:53:11,288 --> 00:53:15,358
so I gave it to him
and walked out and...
939
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,497
and the gate opened
and I was a civilian.
940
00:53:24,301 --> 00:53:28,305
- This for me,that moment in my life,
941
00:53:28,371 --> 00:53:32,642
there was a lot of event,
that was the event that I have
942
00:53:32,709 --> 00:53:39,616
the most difficulty remember
all, because I was so triggered.
943
00:53:39,683 --> 00:53:44,487
I was so like, the floor
opened under your feet,
944
00:53:44,554 --> 00:53:48,224
that I feel like something,
I lost it.
945
00:53:48,291 --> 00:53:52,329
Like in my head
and my self-esteem
946
00:53:52,395 --> 00:53:54,331
everything like crashed.
947
00:53:55,498 --> 00:53:57,367
- I knew that
there were rapes that went on,
948
00:53:57,434 --> 00:54:00,837
there were
sexual assaults that went on,
949
00:54:00,904 --> 00:54:02,872
and the military kind of
turned a blind eye to it
950
00:54:02,939 --> 00:54:05,909
because they were
so busy chasing queers.
951
00:54:05,976 --> 00:54:10,246
And letting the boys be boys.
And that was acceptable.
952
00:54:11,615 --> 00:54:13,550
- I went to the mess hall
to meet some friends
953
00:54:13,617 --> 00:54:18,188
for having a drink to say
you're going to be leaving.
954
00:54:18,254 --> 00:54:25,862
And some young Corporal put a
drug in my glass and drugged me,
955
00:54:25,929 --> 00:54:30,333
and I left with him
and they tried to stop me
956
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,902
but I can't remember
because I was drugged
957
00:54:32,969 --> 00:54:35,038
and he raped me.
958
00:54:37,374 --> 00:54:38,942
I woke up
in his apartment the next day
959
00:54:39,009 --> 00:54:41,911
and couldn't figure out
why I was there.
960
00:54:41,978 --> 00:54:46,683
And he told me why I was there
and why he had raped me
961
00:54:46,750 --> 00:54:49,953
"to show me what it would be
to be with a man."
962
00:54:50,020 --> 00:54:52,555
And I'm saying like "Ok."
963
00:54:53,556 --> 00:54:55,625
I ran out of there, and I'm
walking home and I'm saying,
964
00:54:55,692 --> 00:54:58,561
to be with a man,
that's what it is?
965
00:55:00,363 --> 00:55:02,332
- They...
966
00:55:06,770 --> 00:55:09,506
Ok, this is difficult for me
to talk about.
967
00:55:10,740 --> 00:55:12,942
One of the...
968
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:21,651
backlash,
I don't know how to find
969
00:55:21,718 --> 00:55:24,788
another word for it.
970
00:55:24,854 --> 00:55:27,924
People knew I was there
because I was waiting to be
971
00:55:27,991 --> 00:55:32,595
court-martialled, because I was
part of that group of lesbians.
972
00:55:35,799 --> 00:55:40,537
So, one night, I was raped
by three soldiers,
973
00:55:40,603 --> 00:55:43,807
telling me
that it's because I never...
974
00:55:45,875 --> 00:55:49,012
knew what having a big one was.
975
00:55:52,816 --> 00:55:56,653
To this day I still
don't know who these guys were,
976
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:59,389
because they blindfolded me.
977
00:56:07,797 --> 00:56:12,102
- It was a scenario
from a horror story.
978
00:56:14,971 --> 00:56:21,678
in their right state of mind,
979
00:56:21,745 --> 00:56:25,014
would do that to a child.
980
00:56:26,716 --> 00:56:28,051
It's unreal.
981
00:56:28,118 --> 00:56:30,453
- Destroyed everything.
982
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:35,692
For me, the reality, because
when I went out of there,
983
00:56:35,759 --> 00:56:38,762
for me it was the world and me.
984
00:56:38,828 --> 00:56:42,699
I was not part of it.
I was just excluded of it.
985
00:56:42,766 --> 00:56:46,870
So, I could not trust nobody.
986
00:56:46,936 --> 00:56:49,606
I felt so dirty.
987
00:56:51,407 --> 00:56:54,644
I felt like
I let down my whole family.
988
00:56:55,478 --> 00:56:58,882
I was like "What am I
going to do with this?"
989
00:56:58,948 --> 00:57:03,019
It was two - they kick me out
two days after my birthday,
990
00:57:03,086 --> 00:57:07,190
in December, of all times,
you know, just before Christmas.
991
00:57:08,958 --> 00:57:13,096
I remember arriving in Montreal
not knowing what to do
992
00:57:13,163 --> 00:57:15,932
and you don't even
want to come and live here,
993
00:57:15,999 --> 00:57:18,101
you don't want
to go live nowhere,
994
00:57:18,168 --> 00:57:19,969
you don't want to see your
family, you don't want to see
995
00:57:20,036 --> 00:57:22,405
your friends,
you don't want to talk about it.
996
00:57:22,472 --> 00:57:25,875
You just want to forget,
so the best is drugs,
997
00:57:25,942 --> 00:57:28,144
alcohol, drugs, let's forget.
998
00:57:28,211 --> 00:57:30,079
Let's forget.
I don't want to talk about it.
999
00:57:30,146 --> 00:57:40,657
- I actually
cleaned my system of pills,
1000
00:57:40,723 --> 00:57:44,027
by myself, in my apartment.
1001
00:57:44,093 --> 00:57:49,632
I got there, I owe two months
rent, I had all kind of bills,
1002
00:57:49,699 --> 00:57:54,103
you know, hydro and stuff,
and all I did, is I sat there
1003
00:57:54,170 --> 00:57:56,639
and I cried for about a week.
1004
00:57:57,841 --> 00:58:02,879
But, you know, when theykicked us out, they told us
1005
00:58:02,946 --> 00:58:08,418
"Do not apply for a job thatrequires a security clearance."
1006
00:58:08,484 --> 00:58:11,154
- And I rememberthe first job I found
1007
00:58:11,221 --> 00:58:15,525
was in a café called Le
Funambule on Saint-Denis Street,
1008
00:58:15,592 --> 00:58:20,096
you know, I was doing orange
juice and cheese and dishes.
1009
00:58:20,163 --> 00:58:23,099
You know and I was there,
and I was like "God, you know,
1010
00:58:23,166 --> 00:58:27,670
how can you go
from all up there, to there,
1011
00:58:27,737 --> 00:58:29,706
just because you like someone?
1012
00:58:29,772 --> 00:58:31,908
How can you
be punished for that?"
1013
00:58:32,508 --> 00:58:36,179
- I mean even
in the reports they made,
1014
00:58:36,246 --> 00:58:39,515
they can't even conclude
that I'm gay.
1015
00:58:39,582 --> 00:58:41,918
They're not even sure.
1016
00:58:41,985 --> 00:58:44,721
But it's like
we won't take a chance.
1017
00:58:44,787 --> 00:58:48,191
It's all upside down.
1018
00:58:48,258 --> 00:58:51,160
They say we have no proofof her sexual preference,
1019
00:58:51,227 --> 00:58:52,762
except of her own admission.
1020
00:58:52,829 --> 00:58:55,465
I never admitted that,I'm not an idiot.
1021
00:58:55,531 --> 00:58:57,934
I was young but not stupid.
1022
00:58:58,001 --> 00:59:03,239
to give you a definite answer
1023
00:59:03,306 --> 00:59:05,241
as to her sexual identity.
1024
00:59:05,308 --> 00:59:09,579
So, they themselves don't evenhave a clue if I am or not.
1025
00:59:09,646 --> 00:59:12,181
There's absolutely nothingin there that says
1026
00:59:12,248 --> 00:59:15,184
I'm not in good shape.
1027
00:59:15,251 --> 00:59:18,554
But here, I can't function.
1028
00:59:19,756 --> 00:59:21,925
This is so screwed up.
1029
00:59:22,292 --> 00:59:25,795
- Yeah, this was
my on-the-job performance
1030
00:59:25,862 --> 00:59:28,598
evaluation that was done.
1031
00:59:34,637 --> 00:59:37,740
It just basically
says what I did in my job
1032
00:59:37,807 --> 00:59:39,542
and I was evaluated.
1033
00:59:39,609 --> 00:59:43,212
Like, operating officemachinery - very good.
1034
00:59:43,279 --> 00:59:46,716
Perform warehouseoperations - very good.
1035
00:59:46,783 --> 00:59:49,052
Process material - very good.
1036
00:59:49,118 --> 00:59:52,822
Perform clerical functions ina supply facility - excellent.
1037
00:59:54,290 --> 00:59:56,993
And there's lists
and lists of this.
1038
00:59:57,060 --> 01:00:01,264
And this was signed
on first of March, 1980.
1039
01:00:01,331 --> 01:00:04,734
And in September 1980, I was
released from the military.
1040
01:00:06,669 --> 01:00:10,673
So, it's hard to understand why.
1041
01:00:10,740 --> 01:00:12,675
You're doing a good job,
but you're no good for us.
1042
01:00:12,742 --> 01:00:14,911
You're no good to us.
1043
01:00:15,845 --> 01:00:20,616
- It did leave
scars on my heart and my soul.
1044
01:00:20,683 --> 01:00:22,952
It would be so much easier
if I was straight
1045
01:00:23,019 --> 01:00:28,224
because I wouldn't have
to deal with this, and you know,
1046
01:00:28,291 --> 01:00:31,728
I tried to have boyfriends,
I did, I did,
1047
01:00:31,794 --> 01:00:34,864
because you want to conform,
1048
01:00:34,931 --> 01:00:37,734
you want to be
like society wants you to be.
1049
01:00:38,668 --> 01:00:41,904
- I have
always felt that the military
1050
01:00:41,971 --> 01:00:43,940
ruined my life.
1051
01:00:44,741 --> 01:00:48,745
And I felt that being gay
also ruined my life.
1052
01:00:51,147 --> 01:00:54,617
- It was surreal.
I still didn't believe it.
1053
01:00:54,684 --> 01:00:57,086
I still didn't believe that it
would happen and I thought well,
1054
01:00:57,153 --> 01:00:59,756
I'll fight back and I'll
do my grievance and somebody,
1055
01:00:59,822 --> 01:01:02,058
somewhere will have a lightbulb
and say "This is stupid,
1056
01:01:02,125 --> 01:01:04,227
like, you don't release
good soldiers."
1057
01:01:04,293 --> 01:01:07,597
After a few years of fighting
and I went to the top
1058
01:01:07,663 --> 01:01:10,733
of all levels that I could,
then I stopped and said
1059
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,337
"Well,
I have to earn my living now."
1060
01:01:14,404 --> 01:01:19,242
And I lived as a robot, I think,
not feeling anything anymore.
1061
01:01:20,843 --> 01:01:22,278
Not feeling anything anymore.
1062
01:01:22,345 --> 01:01:26,416
Just feeling that was me then
and I'm nobody now.
1063
01:01:27,283 --> 01:01:32,155
- I was a good soldier.I gave it my all.
1064
01:01:32,221 --> 01:01:35,091
And I would havegiven my life for it.
1065
01:01:36,359 --> 01:01:40,430
Absolutely. 110%.
1066
01:01:42,231 --> 01:01:45,034
And that's how we were trained.
1067
01:01:45,101 --> 01:01:48,805
You don't
give just 50% of yourself.
1068
01:01:48,871 --> 01:01:52,208
We want it all.
And they took it all.
1069
01:01:52,275 --> 01:01:54,877
But then they spit me out.
1070
01:01:56,112 --> 01:01:57,914
- You know, we were good people,
1071
01:01:57,980 --> 01:02:00,016
we were always good people.
1072
01:02:00,083 --> 01:02:02,785
Beyond being good military
personnel, we were just good,
1073
01:02:02,852 --> 01:02:06,222
decent people
who didn't deserve any of that.
1074
01:02:07,423 --> 01:02:09,992
- I was an excellent soldier.
1075
01:02:27,844 --> 01:02:29,779
I became homeless.
1076
01:02:32,515 --> 01:02:35,151
I had no money.
1077
01:02:35,218 --> 01:02:37,787
I couldn't come backto Ontario.
1078
01:02:41,090 --> 01:02:43,426
And then I found out that
the only way that my family
1079
01:02:43,493 --> 01:02:47,029
will accept me is if I...
1080
01:02:47,096 --> 01:02:48,764
marry my old girlfriend.
1081
01:02:50,166 --> 01:02:52,235
So, I married my girlfriend.
1082
01:02:55,071 --> 01:02:57,340
And we had a family.
1083
01:02:58,808 --> 01:03:02,478
That only lasted a little while.
1084
01:03:08,784 --> 01:03:10,953
I was ok.
1085
01:03:12,221 --> 01:03:14,857
But...
1086
01:03:14,924 --> 01:03:16,826
I'm gay.
1087
01:03:17,527 --> 01:03:20,196
I'm not a straight man.
1088
01:03:33,943 --> 01:03:37,847
- Cause I felt ashamedfor 38 years.
1089
01:03:37,914 --> 01:03:41,817
I still feel ashamed. Sort oflike, betraying your country
1090
01:03:41,884 --> 01:03:44,453
because I was told
I was security risk.
1091
01:03:47,256 --> 01:03:50,059
A threat to my country.
1092
01:03:50,126 --> 01:03:52,161
And I sort of felt ashamed.
1093
01:03:53,930 --> 01:03:56,332
So that was just something else.
1094
01:03:58,201 --> 01:04:01,871
But slowly you learn
to live with it eh, so.
1095
01:04:03,406 --> 01:04:07,243
But your family doesn't know why
you aren't in the military
1096
01:04:07,310 --> 01:04:09,345
and you can't tell them.
1097
01:04:10,046 --> 01:04:13,449
You know, for my life, I told
them, that's all I want to do
1098
01:04:13,516 --> 01:04:15,918
and all of a sudden
"Why did you leave?"
1099
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,957
"Oh well, I thought
I'd try something new."
1100
01:04:21,023 --> 01:04:25,194
So, you become this actress,
1101
01:04:25,261 --> 01:04:28,264
put a smile on your face
and life goes on.
1102
01:04:30,066 --> 01:04:31,867
- They stole my life.
1103
01:04:31,934 --> 01:04:35,571
What I have been
versus what I should have been.
1104
01:04:35,638 --> 01:04:39,041
I should have been the first
female Chief Warrant Officer
1105
01:04:39,108 --> 01:04:43,045
in the MP trade.
That's what I was going for.
1106
01:04:49,518 --> 01:04:52,221
I never got over it.
1107
01:04:52,288 --> 01:04:57,293
We all feel that pain
at different levels, you know.
1108
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:02,431
Some they went through
one investigation,
1109
01:05:02,498 --> 01:05:04,400
one time
that they were questioned
1110
01:05:04,467 --> 01:05:07,903
and they crack right away
and they were kicked out.
1111
01:05:07,970 --> 01:05:10,539
You know,I fought for four years.
1112
01:05:14,076 --> 01:05:16,012
They wanted us.
1113
01:05:16,078 --> 01:05:18,147
We were marked.
1114
01:05:19,215 --> 01:05:21,150
And that was it.
1115
01:05:23,986 --> 01:05:26,222
[♪ ♪ ♪]
1116
01:05:26,956 --> 01:05:29,225
- I tried
to get parts of my file.
1117
01:05:29,292 --> 01:05:32,895
I wanted
the SIU investigative reports.
1118
01:05:32,962 --> 01:05:37,099
DND took months to reply to me
1119
01:05:37,166 --> 01:05:39,302
that they could not
locate the files.
1120
01:05:39,368 --> 01:05:44,206
And I kept saying no,
I worked in records management,
1121
01:05:44,273 --> 01:05:46,142
the files just don't disappear.
1122
01:05:46,208 --> 01:05:49,912
- It's my impression that
1123
01:05:46,208 --> 01:05:49,912
the RCMP
1124
01:05:49,979 --> 01:05:52,248
and the Department of
National Defence have not been
1125
01:05:52,315 --> 01:05:54,417
as forthcoming
as they ought to be.
1126
01:05:54,483 --> 01:05:57,286
I think that the
Department of Justice people
1127
01:05:57,353 --> 01:05:59,522
that we're dealing
with are honourable people,
1128
01:05:59,588 --> 01:06:03,359
I think they are negotiating
with us in good faith.
1129
01:06:03,426 --> 01:06:05,895
But I have good reason
to believe that they may not
1130
01:06:05,961 --> 01:06:09,398
be getting the level
of cooperation from the RCMP
1131
01:06:09,465 --> 01:06:11,267
and The
Department of National Defence
1132
01:06:11,334 --> 01:06:13,002
that they ought to receive.
1133
01:06:13,069 --> 01:06:14,403
- They have
1134
01:06:13,069 --> 01:06:14,403
all of those records.
1135
01:06:14,470 --> 01:06:19,108
The military does not
destroy records. Ever.
1136
01:06:19,175 --> 01:06:23,179
- Thousands of people
were investigated.
1137
01:06:23,245 --> 01:06:27,083
The RCMP gave an annual report,
the last one we've seen,
1138
01:06:27,149 --> 01:06:30,052
they had 9000 people
under investigation.
1139
01:06:30,653 --> 01:06:33,255
[♪ ♪ ♪]
1140
01:06:44,100 --> 01:06:47,436
- It was a war against us.
1141
01:06:51,107 --> 01:06:54,777
We should get
retribution for that.
1142
01:06:56,445 --> 01:06:59,582
- Now, the odd thing is,
and I interviewed a lot
1143
01:06:59,648 --> 01:07:06,122
of those Mounties, and I don't
remember them ever coming across
1144
01:07:06,188 --> 01:07:11,360
a case of a homosexual
being successfully blackmailed.
1145
01:07:11,427 --> 01:07:17,299
Even the Mounties themselves
felt badly about it,
1146
01:07:17,366 --> 01:07:19,268
because it was such a travesty.
1147
01:07:20,269 --> 01:07:22,371
- It's very clear
that our government
1148
01:07:22,438 --> 01:07:26,509
is committing to acknowledging
and recognizing our legislation,
1149
01:07:26,575 --> 01:07:31,113
programs, and policies that
contributed to injustices
1150
01:07:31,180 --> 01:07:33,749
and discriminations against
LGBTQ Canadians,
1151
01:07:33,816 --> 01:07:35,718
and that our government
will apologize
1152
01:07:35,785 --> 01:07:37,620
before the end of 2017.
1153
01:07:40,723 --> 01:07:43,125
- I don't want an apology.
1154
01:07:44,260 --> 01:07:46,395
I don't need an apology.
1155
01:07:48,431 --> 01:07:50,166
I don't.
1156
01:07:50,232 --> 01:07:52,535
The wound is too deep.
1157
01:07:54,603 --> 01:07:56,071
The wound is too deep.
1158
01:07:56,138 --> 01:08:00,576
It had sent my sisters
and my brothers in arm
1159
01:08:00,643 --> 01:08:03,245
to commit suicide.
1160
01:08:03,312 --> 01:08:08,818
It sent them
deep into alcohol, into drugs.
1161
01:08:11,353 --> 01:08:13,389
An apology?
1162
01:08:16,292 --> 01:08:17,293
No.
1163
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:20,463
He may as well
just go on his merry way.
1164
01:08:21,630 --> 01:08:24,733
- For me,
an excuse is an excuse.
1165
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:30,773
Won't change whatever happened
for all those years,
1166
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,108
because they knew
what was going on.
1167
01:08:33,175 --> 01:08:36,445
Nobody did anything about it.
1168
01:08:36,512 --> 01:08:38,647
They just let it happen.
1169
01:08:38,714 --> 01:08:40,749
I mean,
this was not in solitary,
1170
01:08:40,816 --> 01:08:46,222
this was not all hidden from
everybody that were in charge.
1171
01:08:48,757 --> 01:08:52,561
So, what good is going
to be an excuse, an apology?
1172
01:08:52,628 --> 01:08:55,097
I mean, I've had so
many apologies through life
1173
01:08:55,164 --> 01:08:57,433
and it didn't change anything.
1174
01:08:58,501 --> 01:09:02,571
- I think we all deserve
1175
01:09:02,638 --> 01:09:06,108
to have someone
witness our pain.
1176
01:09:06,175 --> 01:09:09,478
We all deserve to have a voice.
1177
01:09:09,545 --> 01:09:15,551
We all deserve to have someone
hear what we have to say.
1178
01:09:16,385 --> 01:09:18,721
- Any of us at any time can
become a minority
1179
01:09:18,787 --> 01:09:22,124
depending on the political
circumstances of the day.
1180
01:09:22,191 --> 01:09:25,094
It's in all of our interests
to look at things that happened
1181
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,696
in the past, injustices,
to recognize them,
1182
01:09:27,763 --> 01:09:30,499
to face up to them,
to make amends for them,
1183
01:09:30,566 --> 01:09:33,235
so that we can recognize today
that this is who we were
1184
01:09:33,302 --> 01:09:36,539
and who we are still
and could one day become.
1185
01:09:36,605 --> 01:09:40,543
It's in everybody's
selfish interests to recognize
1186
01:09:40,609 --> 01:09:43,546
persecution and prosecution
of minorities in the past,
1187
01:09:43,612 --> 01:09:46,215
because you might one day
become a minority yourself.
1188
01:09:46,749 --> 01:09:49,151
- We caused the damage
as a country,
1189
01:09:49,218 --> 01:09:52,321
we have a responsibility
to make it right.
1190
01:09:52,388 --> 01:09:55,591
I believe most Canadians
are fair people.
1191
01:09:55,658 --> 01:10:00,763
But, they need to understand
that it actually happened.
1192
01:10:00,829 --> 01:10:06,468
That our country, not the United
States, not the United Kingdom,
1193
01:10:06,535 --> 01:10:10,873
not ISIS
or some other horrible entity.
1194
01:10:10,940 --> 01:10:14,777
The Government of Canada,
and the RCMP,
1195
01:10:14,843 --> 01:10:20,482
and the Canadian Armed Forces
pursued this policy of targeting
1196
01:10:20,549 --> 01:10:24,253
gays and lesbians,
and investigating them,
1197
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:28,824
and interrogating them,
and branding them as people
1198
01:10:28,891 --> 01:10:32,194
suffering from a character
weakness and a threat to
1199
01:10:32,261 --> 01:10:35,731
national security and
threw them out onto the street
1200
01:10:35,798 --> 01:10:40,836
after they had volunteered
to help our country.
1201
01:10:40,903 --> 01:10:43,939
It was a disgraceful episode
in our history.
1202
01:10:46,308 --> 01:10:51,213
- All I want,
really, is them to say
1203
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:54,383
"We did this, we apologize."
1204
01:10:54,450 --> 01:10:59,321
They can use the,
it was the philosophy back then,
1205
01:10:59,388 --> 01:11:01,924
it was the same thing
in civilian street.
1206
01:11:01,991 --> 01:11:06,462
They can use any excuse, I give
them all to them, you know,
1207
01:11:06,528 --> 01:11:10,265
but just say "Yes,
we did it, we recognize it,
1208
01:11:10,332 --> 01:11:12,768
and we apologize for it."
1209
01:11:14,303 --> 01:11:17,539
And maybe I'll stop crying.
1210
01:11:25,481 --> 01:11:29,618
- It is with shame, and sorrow,
1211
01:11:29,685 --> 01:11:31,654
and deep regret
1212
01:11:32,554 --> 01:11:34,957
for the things we have done
1213
01:11:35,024 --> 01:11:37,359
that I stand here today
1214
01:11:37,426 --> 01:11:39,862
and say
1215
01:11:39,928 --> 01:11:42,398
"We were wrong.
1216
01:11:42,464 --> 01:11:45,000
We apologize.
1217
01:11:45,067 --> 01:11:47,636
I am sorry.
1218
01:11:47,703 --> 01:11:50,472
We are sorry."
1219
01:11:51,907 --> 01:11:54,843
[Applause]
1220
01:11:56,412 --> 01:12:25,874
[Applause continues]
1221
01:12:30,946 --> 01:12:35,551
- Well, the human response
is wow. This felt great.
1222
01:12:35,617 --> 01:12:39,555
For me,
it was long time waiting for it.
1223
01:12:39,621 --> 01:12:43,826
It's been a very long journey
and I'm very happy
1224
01:12:43,892 --> 01:12:46,462
that we are all here today.
1225
01:12:46,528 --> 01:12:50,966
To get this apology is not
going to change what happened,
1226
01:12:51,033 --> 01:12:54,436
but it will change
my perception of who did it
1227
01:12:54,503 --> 01:12:57,706
and how it happened
and it will change my perception
1228
01:12:57,773 --> 01:13:00,809
of life and of my country.
1229
01:13:01,910 --> 01:13:06,148
[♪ ♪ ♪]
1230
01:13:07,082 --> 01:13:11,587
- This whole thing
broke part of our soul.
1231
01:13:11,653 --> 01:13:15,090
I think it broke the person
that we were supposed to be,
1232
01:13:15,157 --> 01:13:18,994
to where we're supposed to go.
I think it broke part of us.
1233
01:13:19,061 --> 01:13:21,730
It will always be broken.
1234
01:13:21,797 --> 01:13:24,967
People that
just wanted to be good.
1235
01:13:25,033 --> 01:13:29,772
Just good. Just good.
Nothing else.
1236
01:13:29,838 --> 01:13:33,408
And we would have
helped people, all the time.
1237
01:13:33,475 --> 01:13:35,944
And I noticed by talking to the
people that were discharged
1238
01:13:36,011 --> 01:13:40,816
like me, they were the best.
1239
01:13:40,883 --> 01:13:43,552
And I was part of the best.
1240
01:13:43,619 --> 01:13:46,021
And it shouldn't have happened.
1241
01:13:46,088 --> 01:13:49,057
- It's time for people
to know what happened.
1242
01:13:49,124 --> 01:13:52,461
And I mean, a lot of people,
like my family that don't know
1243
01:13:52,528 --> 01:13:55,964
that I've been through this,
but that's ok,
1244
01:13:56,031 --> 01:14:00,435
other people have to know too.
They need to know.
1245
01:14:00,502 --> 01:14:02,805
It was not always nice.
1246
01:14:02,871 --> 01:14:06,675
Canada did bad things
to people, you know.
1247
01:14:06,742 --> 01:14:08,377
And they mistreated
their soldiers
1248
01:14:08,443 --> 01:14:10,579
and people should know that.
1249
01:14:10,646 --> 01:14:13,115
It's a part of history
that should come out.
1250
01:14:13,182 --> 01:14:15,384
- You know, we've all
done things that in the end
1251
01:14:15,450 --> 01:14:18,954
"What was I thinking?
Why did I do that?"
1252
01:14:19,021 --> 01:14:24,560
And when you get
this together on a bigger stage
1253
01:14:24,626 --> 01:14:29,531
with more people involved,
things can get out of control.
1254
01:14:29,598 --> 01:14:30,933
And I think that's what happened
1255
01:14:30,999 --> 01:14:32,534
and certainly that's what
happened with the Fruit Machine,
1256
01:14:32,601 --> 01:14:35,437
nobody wants to take ownership
of it, now, you know.
1257
01:14:35,504 --> 01:14:37,506
The first time
it ever became public
1258
01:14:37,573 --> 01:14:39,708
was in the book
Men in the Shadows.
1259
01:14:39,775 --> 01:14:44,646
The first time anybody was everinterviewed about it, openly,
1260
01:14:44,713 --> 01:14:47,516
I was doing the interviewsand the reactions I got,
1261
01:14:47,583 --> 01:14:50,652
people just, they'd rather not
have that part,
1262
01:14:50,719 --> 01:14:55,424
it's just the dark corner of
their history, kind of thing
1263
01:14:55,490 --> 01:14:57,993
you know, and how did
I ever get involved in that?
1264
01:14:58,060 --> 01:15:00,963
But it's easy to fall
into that kind of thing.
1265
01:15:01,029 --> 01:15:04,766
And I think it's a lesson
that we have to be vigilant.
1266
01:15:05,834 --> 01:15:08,704
- And for sure, like anything,
it's because we fight
1267
01:15:08,770 --> 01:15:12,541
that things change, because
if we didn't talk about it
1268
01:15:12,608 --> 01:15:15,177
nobody
would not even look at it.
1269
01:15:15,244 --> 01:15:18,914
- The people that are gay now
should be happy in the military.
1270
01:15:18,981 --> 01:15:22,050
I'm happy for them, becauseI would love to be them.
1271
01:15:22,117 --> 01:15:23,585
Be happy.
1272
01:15:23,652 --> 01:15:26,688
Be who you are and be happy andthink that people in the past,
1273
01:15:26,755 --> 01:15:28,991
maybe didn't have it so easy.
1274
01:15:30,726 --> 01:15:33,061
But if it helped to bring itok now, it's good too.
1275
01:15:35,998 --> 01:15:38,800
- 59 years old and I'd go back.
1276
01:15:38,867 --> 01:15:41,436
Well, now I'm too old,
1277
01:15:38,867 --> 01:15:41,436
they don't want me. [Laughter]
1278
01:15:41,503 --> 01:15:43,839
- I was there
to defend my country.
1279
01:15:43,906 --> 01:15:48,243
They knock at the door today and
ask me if I would go and join,
1280
01:15:48,310 --> 01:15:54,082
to go in combat somewhere, as
crazy as it may sound, I'd go.
1281
01:15:54,149 --> 01:15:57,886
- The other question was,
if after all of this,
1282
01:15:57,953 --> 01:16:01,089
and I could go back
to the army, would I?
1283
01:16:01,156 --> 01:16:05,127
I would, absolutely. On a dime.
1284
01:16:05,193 --> 01:16:08,997
No questions asked.
With everything I know now.
1285
01:16:09,064 --> 01:16:15,570
With my experience. Yes. Yeah.
1286
01:16:15,637 --> 01:16:19,274
I miss it, I still miss it,
I will always miss it.
1287
01:16:20,142 --> 01:16:24,179
- Well, if I had to
do it all over again, I would.
1288
01:16:24,246 --> 01:16:26,682
No regrets. None.
1289
01:16:28,750 --> 01:16:31,887
And somebody said to me
"You're getting old though,
1290
01:16:31,954 --> 01:16:33,288
are you afraid of dying?"
1291
01:16:33,355 --> 01:16:37,125
I said "No, I'm not afraid
of dying, I'm only sorry."
1292
01:16:42,698 --> 01:16:44,333
Yeah.
1293
01:16:48,770 --> 01:16:51,773
Like, so much as happened
and so much is going to come.
1294
01:16:55,077 --> 01:16:57,045
The good times are coming.
1295
01:16:58,647 --> 01:17:02,217
[♪ ♪ ♪]
1296
01:18:43,852 --> 01:18:49,124
- So thesewere the initial questions
1297
01:18:49,191 --> 01:18:53,228
that the government devisedto try to help them determine
1298
01:18:53,295 --> 01:18:55,130
who was gay.
1299
01:18:57,999 --> 01:19:02,838
- They had a very weird way
of looking at that.
1300
01:19:02,904 --> 01:19:04,372
Cause I'm looking at that
and it wouldn't determine that
1301
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:06,174
to me at all.
1302
01:19:06,241 --> 01:19:08,910
"I like adventure stories
better than romantic stories?"
1303
01:19:08,977 --> 01:19:12,380
And that would say
if someone was gay? Like, no.
1304
01:19:12,447 --> 01:19:15,050
[Laughter]
They had weird stories.
1305
01:19:15,117 --> 01:19:18,353
"The thought of being
in an automobile accident
1306
01:19:18,420 --> 01:19:19,988
is very frightening to me?"
1307
01:19:20,055 --> 01:19:24,059
That would show that somebody
is gay? Like, pardon me.
1308
01:19:24,126 --> 01:19:25,927
[Laughter]
1309
01:19:26,428 --> 01:19:29,731
"I always tried to make the best
school grades that I could?"
1310
01:19:29,798 --> 01:19:32,501
If somebody said that, there was
an inkling they might be gay?
1311
01:19:34,970 --> 01:19:37,439
"I am inclined
to take things hard?"
1312
01:19:37,506 --> 01:19:40,976
I don't know.
But, who thought of this,
1313
01:19:41,042 --> 01:19:43,211
might be someone
that's hiding that they're gay.
1314
01:19:43,278 --> 01:19:45,881
They don't want other people
to know. [Laughter]
109368
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