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♪ ♪
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Jesse Helms:
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Robert Mapplethorpe,
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a known homosexual
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who died of AIDS
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and who spent
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promoting homosexuality.
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the last years of his life
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Now, if any senator doesn't
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know what I'm talking about
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in terms of the art
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that I have protested,
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look at the pictures!
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Now, any senator who thinks
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that I'm attacking
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aesthetic art...
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I don't know whether
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can see it or not,
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the television cameras
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- I'm gonna be fast enough
- With it that they can't.
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But I want senators
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if they have any doubt,
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to come over here,
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and look at the pictures.
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Reporter:
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down the Mapplethorpe exhibit.
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In Cincinnati, police closed
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We are sending
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exhibit to trial.
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the Mapplethorpe
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Helms:
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Look at the pictures.
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Come over here.
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Alex Trebeck:
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works led to a dispute...
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One of two artists whose
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- Helms: - Look at the pictures.
- Look at the pictures.
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Look at the pictures.
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(beeps)
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Who is Mapplethorpe?
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- Dan Rather: - The art gallery
- And its director
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Are charged with obscenity
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the late Robert Mapplethorpe.
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for exhibiting photographs by
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- Helms:
- Look at the pictures.
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Mapplethorpe's work
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is highly controversial.
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- Can I show it to you?
- I don't want to look at it.
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Helms:
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that it's art.
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I don't even acknowledge
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- Protesters:
- Keep your hands off!
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- Helms:
- I don't even acknowledge
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- That the fellow who did it
- Was an artist.
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I think he was a jerk...
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- (echoing):
- Jerk, jerk.
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♪ ♪
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- Archivist:
- This is one of five vaults
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- In which Mapplethorpe's
- Archive resides.
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- Audiovisual material is
- In here
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Along with more ephemeral
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and personal correspondence.
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paperwork from his studio
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Photographs are
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in a cooler environment,
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and Polaroids are in
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an even colder environment.
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♪ ♪
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Woman:
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is to really make a case
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One of our big challenges
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- for why we're doing
- Two concurrent exhibitions...
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- Man: Right.
- About one artist.
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This is two sides
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of one coin.
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Yeah.
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There is a duality that runs
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work and life
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through Mapplethorpe's
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and we hope to be able
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to divide the material
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in a way that would
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highlight that duality.
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This is a box
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Right.
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of self-portraits.
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- Oh.
- Oh.
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Yeah, biker jacket
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from the back.
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Yeah.
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- I really like
- This white piping
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And how it leads up
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Yeah.
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to this other shape.
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- That's one
- Of the great ones.
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Male curator:
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people immediately think
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When you say Mapplethorpe,
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of the controversies that
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happened during the '90s.
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"Guerrilla Rebel."
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Yeah.
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Male curator:
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being demonized
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Mapplethorpe was
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by conservative politicians,
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so one of our goals was
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to humanize Mapplethorpe,
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to bring him back into
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as a human being.
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people's consciousness
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It's quite convincing.
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- Ah.
- Oh.
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Mapplethorpe and bullwhip.
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I remember it being
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a slightly higher contrast.
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- It's a different paper.
- Right.
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- This is a lot warmer
- And softer.
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Mm-hmm.
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The way his hand is,
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it's so great,
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he's releasing a shadow.
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it almost looks like
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Yes. Because that cord
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of the frame.
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comes just to the edge
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The cord kind of connects
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the viewer with Mapplethorpe.
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Yeah.
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- Because it's coming
- Out of the picture.
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As well as the eye contact.
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- Right.
- Obviously,
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It's very defiant.
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- He's not hiding his face.
- He's not hiding his identity.
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He's not hiding
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what he's doing.
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♪ ♪
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♪ ♪
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(shutter clicks)
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Robert was just...
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my younger brother.
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I'm the oldest.
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That's myself,
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my brother Richard,
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Robert, Edward,
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Sue, and James.
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That's the six of us.
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When we were young,
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we did a lot of coloring.
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Robert always
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had weird things.
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He'd have a green face,
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or... just not the norm.
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Purple hair, or something.
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- And I'd say,
- "Why are you doing that for?
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- "That's not the way
- It's supposed to be."
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As far as, like, photographs,
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he never took photographs.
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My dad took
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a lot of photographs.
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Robert, he had no interest
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in that at all.
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Harry:
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moved here in 1949.
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My wife and I and the children
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I was always interested
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in photography,
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but none of my kids were
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until Eddie.
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I had all the equipment
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downstairs, a darkroom,
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enlarger and printer and dryer
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and everything else.
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This is the block
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we lived on.
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- See, all the houses
- Were the same?
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This is during the snow.
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This is Robert here
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with two of his friends.
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- You know, we had to be home
- A certain time for dinner,
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And you had to sit
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you finished your dinner.
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at the table until
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Harry:
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Robert was this regular kid.
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One thing was, his endurance
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on a pogo stick.
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- He was having competitions
- With people.
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- He would go all the way around
- The block on a pogo stick.
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Robert was the pogo stick
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of the neighborhood.
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champ of 259th Street,
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He just could go on forever,
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and he was so proud of that.
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You know, there's something
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that are so much better
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about black and white pictures
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because they last.
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I took this of Robert
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in front of our house, right?
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The rest of them,
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all these, he took of me,
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and, I believe, is probably
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the first pictures he took.
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(organ music playing)
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Announcer:
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"Sense and Nonsense!"
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Nancy:
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program in the early '50s.
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There was this television
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Someone would give them
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their blindfolds on
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something to taste with
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- and you would have
- To guess what it is.
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That's how we play the game,
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of our five senses.
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identifying items by means
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Well, we Mapplethorpe kids
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made our own
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"Sense and Nonsense" game.
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Robert, little devil
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that he was,
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went to one of the many
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ashtrays around the house,
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which were always full,
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and put ashes
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in my brother's mouth,
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and they were fuming.
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That's the kind of stuff
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needling stuff.
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he did, that kind of
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So he was
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a devilish guy. (laughs)
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♪ ♪
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We never missed
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Mass on Sunday.
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We always went to church.
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And I still do.
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(woman singing opera)
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George Stack:
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Robert Mapplethorpe
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I first met
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when I was assigned to
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in Floral Park.
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Our Lady of the Snows Parish
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They were active
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in the parish, you know,
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so I got to know
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the whole family.
250
00:08:48,417 --> 00:08:49,855
So Robert just kind of
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took to me,
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and I, you know, took to him.
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And... he used to paint
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me pictures.
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He drew me a couple of
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Mother, the Virgin Mary,
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paintings of the Blessed
258
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and I thought to myself,
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by Picasso."
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"He's been too influenced
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You know? (laughs)
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But anyway,
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I have to say that, first,
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he was the only person I knew
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who could sit on a couch
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and chew his toenails.
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The other thing was,
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you'd look at Robert
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and I think the first thing
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you'd notice is his eyes.
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They were huge,
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and as if he was
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always looking,
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always penetrating, always...
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you know,
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trying to get through.
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Mapplethorpe:
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suburban America.
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I come from this, you know,
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It was a very
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safe environment,
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and it was a good place
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to come from
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in that it was a good
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place to leave.
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Stack:
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really fit in
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He never quite
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with all these
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other teenage boys, you know?
291
00:10:05,042 --> 00:10:06,626
There was something
292
00:10:06,627 --> 00:10:08,209
very fragile about Robert.
293
00:10:10,209 --> 00:10:12,584
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
294
00:10:21,250 --> 00:10:22,855
Nancy:
295
00:10:21,250 --> 00:10:24,459
I don't know why though.
296
00:10:22,856 --> 00:10:24,459
Robert was mom's favorite.
297
00:10:24,542 --> 00:10:25,751
I can't put my finger
298
00:10:25,752 --> 00:10:26,959
on specific things,
299
00:10:27,042 --> 00:10:28,584
but I always say,
300
00:10:28,585 --> 00:10:30,125
"Oh, Robert was her favorite."
301
00:10:32,334 --> 00:10:33,709
Mapplethorpe:
302
00:10:32,334 --> 00:10:35,083
wasn't enough for me.
303
00:10:33,710 --> 00:10:35,083
Somehow that just
304
00:10:36,542 --> 00:10:38,792
- Robert was smart.
- Everything came easy to him.
305
00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:40,084
I worked like a dog
306
00:10:40,085 --> 00:10:41,292
for my marks,
307
00:10:41,375 --> 00:10:43,375
but he graduated at 16.
308
00:10:43,459 --> 00:10:45,522
Mapplethorpe:
309
00:10:43,459 --> 00:10:47,584
I started art school training,
310
00:10:45,523 --> 00:10:47,584
As soon as I could,
311
00:10:47,667 --> 00:10:50,042
and I moved to Brooklyn.
312
00:10:50,125 --> 00:10:51,459
Nancy:
313
00:10:50,125 --> 00:10:52,792
basically against it.
314
00:10:51,460 --> 00:10:52,792
My dad was
315
00:10:52,876 --> 00:10:55,022
My father thought,
316
00:10:55,023 --> 00:10:57,167
you can do it as a hobby,
317
00:10:57,250 --> 00:10:58,480
but what are you ever
318
00:10:58,481 --> 00:10:59,709
gonna do with art?
319
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,542
- Man:
- Did you know that photography
320
00:11:06,626 --> 00:11:07,772
And homosexuality share
321
00:11:07,773 --> 00:11:08,918
something in common?
322
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,355
Growing respect for
323
00:11:10,356 --> 00:11:11,709
photography in the art world
324
00:11:11,792 --> 00:11:13,542
occurred simultaneously
325
00:11:13,626 --> 00:11:15,894
- with the growing visibility
- Of the gay rights movement.
326
00:11:15,918 --> 00:11:17,814
Each suffered a gauntlet
327
00:11:15,918 --> 00:11:19,709
their coming of age.
328
00:11:17,815 --> 00:11:19,709
of prejudice during
329
00:11:19,792 --> 00:11:21,584
- Just as Mapplethorpe
- Was starting out,
330
00:11:21,667 --> 00:11:23,459
To be openly gay was still
331
00:11:23,460 --> 00:11:25,250
very much a cultural taboo.
332
00:11:25,334 --> 00:11:27,834
And photography was
333
00:11:25,334 --> 00:11:30,334
than a utilitarian medium,
334
00:11:27,835 --> 00:11:30,334
considered not much more
335
00:11:30,417 --> 00:11:32,271
an applied art,
336
00:11:32,272 --> 00:11:34,125
a bastard of the arts.
337
00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:38,646
Woman:
338
00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:40,042
when he started Pratt.
339
00:11:38,647 --> 00:11:40,042
He was very young
340
00:11:40,125 --> 00:11:42,230
He just looked like
341
00:11:40,125 --> 00:11:44,334
made fun of him.
342
00:11:42,231 --> 00:11:44,334
a little boy and people
343
00:11:44,417 --> 00:11:46,292
At that time his name
344
00:11:46,293 --> 00:11:48,167
was Bob Mapplethorpe,
345
00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:51,083
and to further diminish him,
346
00:11:51,167 --> 00:11:52,918
they called him "Maypo,"
347
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,730
because that was a children's
348
00:11:54,731 --> 00:11:56,459
cereal back in those days.
349
00:11:56,542 --> 00:11:58,105
♪ I want my Maypo,
350
00:11:58,106 --> 00:11:59,667
I want my Maypo ♪
351
00:11:59,751 --> 00:12:02,000
He was not macho.
352
00:12:02,083 --> 00:12:03,334
Child:
353
00:12:03,335 --> 00:12:04,584
It makes you strong.
354
00:12:04,667 --> 00:12:07,083
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
355
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,021
He told me he would take his
356
00:12:18,022 --> 00:12:20,042
father's negatives to class
357
00:12:20,125 --> 00:12:21,355
and present them
358
00:12:21,356 --> 00:12:22,584
as his own work.
359
00:12:22,667 --> 00:12:24,021
He was a fuckup.
360
00:12:24,022 --> 00:12:25,375
(laughs)
361
00:12:28,751 --> 00:12:30,459
Female curator:
362
00:12:28,751 --> 00:12:32,167
his experience at Pratt
363
00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:32,167
So I was interested in
364
00:12:32,250 --> 00:12:33,688
and how he found himself
365
00:12:33,689 --> 00:12:35,125
as an artist there.
366
00:12:35,209 --> 00:12:36,709
Is that a self-portrait?
367
00:12:36,792 --> 00:12:38,626
- Yes. This one's
- Actually ink,
368
00:12:38,709 --> 00:12:40,959
So I'm imagining he, like,
369
00:12:38,709 --> 00:12:43,209
onto his face.
370
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,209
rolled an oil-based ink
371
00:12:43,292 --> 00:12:44,292
- Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- Yeah.
372
00:12:44,334 --> 00:12:46,000
- Which is kind of
- Hard to comprehend.
373
00:12:46,083 --> 00:12:47,375
The psychedelia of it too.
374
00:12:47,459 --> 00:12:48,709
He was really into acid
375
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:49,959
at the time.
376
00:12:51,417 --> 00:12:52,792
Man:
377
00:12:51,417 --> 00:12:54,167
a similar background.
378
00:12:52,793 --> 00:12:54,167
We both had
379
00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:56,959
- Right off the bat,
- I think we kind of hit it off.
380
00:12:57,042 --> 00:12:59,521
He started taking drugs
381
00:12:59,522 --> 00:13:02,000
and smoked marijuana. LSD.
382
00:13:02,083 --> 00:13:03,334
We both were living on
383
00:13:03,417 --> 00:13:05,125
- candy bars and cigarettes,
- Basically,
384
00:13:05,209 --> 00:13:06,938
And he was getting really
385
00:13:05,209 --> 00:13:08,667
really pale-looking...
386
00:13:06,939 --> 00:13:08,667
skinny and we were both
387
00:13:08,751 --> 00:13:11,563
But we smoked, and so
388
00:13:11,564 --> 00:13:14,375
he put LSD in the cigarette.
389
00:13:14,459 --> 00:13:16,334
I completely lost my memory.
390
00:13:16,417 --> 00:13:21,667
And so... I, uh...
391
00:13:27,125 --> 00:13:29,125
- I don't know,
- I'm losing track now.
392
00:13:29,209 --> 00:13:31,292
I'm kind of like, having a...
393
00:13:31,375 --> 00:13:32,459
I'm going back there
394
00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:33,542
too much, I guess.
395
00:13:33,626 --> 00:13:35,355
Mapplethorpe:
396
00:13:33,626 --> 00:13:37,083
I'd stay up all night, stoned,
397
00:13:35,356 --> 00:13:37,083
When I was in art school,
398
00:13:37,167 --> 00:13:39,000
- trying to think
- What hasn't been done,
399
00:13:39,083 --> 00:13:41,563
And I was obsessed with
400
00:13:39,083 --> 00:13:44,042
a new approach to art
401
00:13:41,564 --> 00:13:44,042
trying to come up with
402
00:13:44,125 --> 00:13:46,000
and to be unique somehow.
403
00:13:46,083 --> 00:13:48,125
Bob and I realized
404
00:13:46,083 --> 00:13:50,167
a little name recognition
405
00:13:48,126 --> 00:13:50,167
you have to get
406
00:13:50,250 --> 00:13:51,730
and sometimes the weird thing
407
00:13:51,731 --> 00:13:53,209
works... can work well for you.
408
00:13:53,292 --> 00:13:55,709
So, somewhere along the way
409
00:13:53,292 --> 00:13:58,125
this little monkey
410
00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:58,125
there, he had purchased
411
00:13:58,209 --> 00:13:59,417
and he named it Scratch,
412
00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:00,917
and I did some really
413
00:14:00,918 --> 00:14:02,334
nice drawings of Scratch.
414
00:14:02,417 --> 00:14:03,896
The monkey had
415
00:14:03,897 --> 00:14:05,375
some bad habits.
416
00:14:05,459 --> 00:14:07,584
The monkey masturbated a lot,
417
00:14:07,667 --> 00:14:09,647
and the monkey
418
00:14:09,648 --> 00:14:11,626
threw crap at you sometimes.
419
00:14:11,709 --> 00:14:13,209
He would walk around with
420
00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:14,709
the monkey on his shoulder
421
00:14:14,792 --> 00:14:16,001
and he was
422
00:14:16,002 --> 00:14:17,209
wearing a black cape.
423
00:14:17,292 --> 00:14:19,105
Robert and I graduated Pratt
424
00:14:19,106 --> 00:14:20,918
in '67,
425
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,167
the Summer of Love
426
00:14:22,168 --> 00:14:23,334
and blah, blah, blah.
427
00:14:23,417 --> 00:14:25,063
And here is Robert
428
00:14:25,064 --> 00:14:26,709
standing all by himself
429
00:14:26,792 --> 00:14:28,563
in a corner, hanging,
430
00:14:28,564 --> 00:14:30,334
you know, hiding his face.
431
00:14:30,417 --> 00:14:32,417
He's extremely mysterious.
432
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:35,042
And that's who he was.
433
00:14:35,125 --> 00:14:36,727
- McCue: - The final project
- For both of us
434
00:14:36,751 --> 00:14:38,063
Was to make a musical
435
00:14:38,064 --> 00:14:39,375
instrument out of a bone.
436
00:14:39,459 --> 00:14:40,668
Then I remember,
437
00:14:40,669 --> 00:14:41,876
I got a call from Bob
438
00:14:41,959 --> 00:14:43,376
and he was all kind of
439
00:14:43,377 --> 00:14:44,792
weepy and he said,
440
00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:46,418
"I don't know what to do.
441
00:14:46,419 --> 00:14:47,959
Scratch has died."
442
00:14:48,042 --> 00:14:50,459
- It was maybe
- Two o'clock in the morning.
443
00:14:50,542 --> 00:14:52,063
He came in
444
00:14:52,064 --> 00:14:53,584
and he was really shook.
445
00:14:53,667 --> 00:14:55,542
He said,
446
00:14:55,543 --> 00:14:57,417
"I boiled Scratch's head,
447
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:59,918
"and I've got my bone,
448
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,584
- "but, you know,
- It was terrible.
449
00:15:01,667 --> 00:15:03,293
"It smelled terrible.
450
00:15:01,667 --> 00:15:04,918
I had to cut his head off."
451
00:15:03,294 --> 00:15:04,918
I hated doing it,
452
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,667
So he aced the project.
453
00:15:07,751 --> 00:15:09,542
Yeah.
454
00:15:09,626 --> 00:15:12,000
- Mapplethorpe:
- There was a lot of negativity,
455
00:15:12,083 --> 00:15:13,751
- Even at Pratt,
- Toward what I did.
456
00:15:13,834 --> 00:15:15,375
You know, people would say,
457
00:15:15,459 --> 00:15:18,042
- "That isn't art, that isn't
- The way you make art,"
458
00:15:18,125 --> 00:15:20,209
- And I just did it
- The way I wanted to do it.
459
00:15:20,292 --> 00:15:21,813
Brunnick:
460
00:15:20,292 --> 00:15:23,334
apart from his classmates.
461
00:15:21,814 --> 00:15:23,334
Robert set himself
462
00:15:23,417 --> 00:15:24,959
Woman:
463
00:15:23,417 --> 00:15:26,500
is his backside.
464
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,500
It's a beast and this
465
00:15:26,584 --> 00:15:28,417
- It's a pose
- That he uses himself
466
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:30,334
- Later on in self-portraits.
- Hmm.
467
00:15:30,417 --> 00:15:32,792
If you compare it
468
00:15:30,417 --> 00:15:35,167
that backward pose,
469
00:15:32,793 --> 00:15:35,167
to "Bullwhip,"
470
00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:37,542
he already has it in his mind.
471
00:15:37,626 --> 00:15:38,959
The last time I saw Bob,
472
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,292
he had no clothes on.
473
00:15:40,375 --> 00:15:42,271
He was afraid. He had all
474
00:15:40,375 --> 00:15:44,167
against the door,
475
00:15:42,272 --> 00:15:44,167
the furniture stacked up
476
00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:46,188
and he was really beside
477
00:15:46,189 --> 00:15:48,125
himself and he said,
478
00:15:48,209 --> 00:15:49,751
"I'm afraid. I'm afraid.
479
00:15:48,209 --> 00:15:51,292
Someone's coming.
480
00:15:49,752 --> 00:15:51,292
Someone's coming.
481
00:15:51,375 --> 00:15:52,959
Could you give me $20?"
482
00:15:53,042 --> 00:15:55,083
♪ ♪
483
00:16:03,417 --> 00:16:05,751
- Patti Smith:
- I met Robert accidentally
484
00:16:05,834 --> 00:16:07,272
And he was just a boy.
485
00:16:07,273 --> 00:16:08,709
I mean, we were both 20.
486
00:16:08,792 --> 00:16:10,501
He was... He was
487
00:16:10,502 --> 00:16:12,209
a kid going to Pratt,
488
00:16:12,292 --> 00:16:14,313
and we fell in love
489
00:16:14,314 --> 00:16:16,334
and he was my boyfriend.
490
00:16:16,417 --> 00:16:18,147
Mapplethorpe: It was
491
00:16:16,417 --> 00:16:19,876
been in love with anybody,
492
00:16:18,148 --> 00:16:19,876
the first time I had ever
493
00:16:19,959 --> 00:16:21,563
so the fact that it was...
494
00:16:19,959 --> 00:16:23,167
as Patti,
495
00:16:21,564 --> 00:16:23,167
It was somebody as unique
496
00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:25,125
I mean, she was... she was
497
00:16:25,126 --> 00:16:27,000
a magical kind of person.
498
00:16:27,083 --> 00:16:28,459
So like, you know,
499
00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:29,834
and she was...
500
00:16:29,918 --> 00:16:31,980
She was supportive of
501
00:16:31,981 --> 00:16:34,042
what I was doing, or my magic,
502
00:16:34,125 --> 00:16:35,313
and I was supportive
503
00:16:35,314 --> 00:16:36,500
of her magic.
504
00:16:36,584 --> 00:16:38,334
- Neither one of us
- Were ever jealous,
505
00:16:38,417 --> 00:16:40,647
So it was like,
506
00:16:38,417 --> 00:16:42,876
a storybook relationship.
507
00:16:40,648 --> 00:16:42,876
you know, it was like
508
00:16:46,584 --> 00:16:48,168
Smith:
509
00:16:46,584 --> 00:16:49,751
confidence in my work
510
00:16:48,169 --> 00:16:49,751
He helped me to build
511
00:16:49,834 --> 00:16:51,584
and to think
512
00:16:51,585 --> 00:16:53,334
of myself as artist,
513
00:16:53,417 --> 00:16:55,584
- to have a concept
- Of oneself as an artist.
514
00:16:55,667 --> 00:16:57,751
- That was always
- Really important to Robert,
515
00:16:57,834 --> 00:16:59,876
Not as an apprentice,
516
00:16:59,877 --> 00:17:01,918
not as a student,
517
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,751
but as an artist.
518
00:17:05,751 --> 00:17:06,855
Ziff:
519
00:17:05,751 --> 00:17:07,959
my friends,
520
00:17:06,856 --> 00:17:07,959
I loved photographing
521
00:17:08,042 --> 00:17:10,542
and Robert called me and said,
522
00:17:08,042 --> 00:17:13,042
pictures of Patti and me?
523
00:17:10,543 --> 00:17:13,042
"Can you do some naked
524
00:17:13,125 --> 00:17:14,771
I want to make
525
00:17:13,125 --> 00:17:16,417
'Garden of Earthly Delights.'"
526
00:17:14,772 --> 00:17:16,417
a little film called
527
00:17:17,751 --> 00:17:19,126
So then we set up lights
528
00:17:19,127 --> 00:17:20,500
on the back of a chair,
529
00:17:20,584 --> 00:17:21,938
and I just took the pictures
530
00:17:21,939 --> 00:17:23,292
that he asked for.
531
00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:28,605
Robert and Patti were
532
00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:31,959
an interesting way
533
00:17:28,606 --> 00:17:31,959
so beautiful in such
534
00:17:32,042 --> 00:17:33,876
- and in an unconventional way,
- I think.
535
00:17:33,959 --> 00:17:36,230
He exuded this kind of
536
00:17:36,231 --> 00:17:38,500
androgynous sexuality,
537
00:17:38,584 --> 00:17:40,459
and so did Patti.
538
00:17:40,542 --> 00:17:41,563
Patti was drawing
539
00:17:41,564 --> 00:17:42,584
all the time,
540
00:17:42,667 --> 00:17:44,709
and Robert was drawing all
541
00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:46,751
the time and making things.
542
00:17:46,834 --> 00:17:48,417
You know, it was messy.
543
00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:49,626
There was stuff
544
00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:50,751
tacked up on the walls.
545
00:17:49,627 --> 00:17:50,751
hanging around,
546
00:17:50,834 --> 00:17:52,084
It looked like a scene
547
00:17:52,085 --> 00:17:53,334
from a Godard movie.
548
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,105
Smith:
549
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,209
night after night, drawing
550
00:18:01,106 --> 00:18:03,209
We sat for hours and hours,
551
00:18:03,292 --> 00:18:05,522
and, you know, drawing from
552
00:18:05,523 --> 00:18:07,751
each other as well as drawing.
553
00:18:07,834 --> 00:18:12,334
I'm a thief and I dig it.
554
00:18:12,417 --> 00:18:15,334
A good thief never hesitates.
555
00:18:15,417 --> 00:18:18,125
A good thief steals clean.
556
00:18:18,209 --> 00:18:20,251
And I'm stealing now.
557
00:18:20,252 --> 00:18:22,292
And I'm stealing now.
558
00:18:22,375 --> 00:18:24,834
And I'm stealing now.
559
00:18:24,918 --> 00:18:26,834
♪ ♪
560
00:18:26,918 --> 00:18:28,393
- Reporter:
- The Chelsea has been home
561
00:18:28,417 --> 00:18:29,750
For more than a century
562
00:18:29,751 --> 00:18:31,083
to a colony of artists
563
00:18:31,167 --> 00:18:32,543
who have also celebrated it
564
00:18:32,544 --> 00:18:33,918
in books,
565
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,188
poems, plays,
566
00:18:35,189 --> 00:18:36,375
dance, and painting.
567
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:41,300
- Mapplethorpe:
- I kept on saying to Patti...
568
00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:01,855
Woman:
569
00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:03,459
We were like a family.
570
00:19:01,856 --> 00:19:03,459
I loved them.
571
00:19:03,542 --> 00:19:05,626
He kept telling me
572
00:19:05,627 --> 00:19:07,709
I was like a sister.
573
00:19:07,792 --> 00:19:09,959
Patti was working like crazy
574
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,125
to let us live.
575
00:19:12,209 --> 00:19:14,000
I mean, she was very generous,
576
00:19:14,083 --> 00:19:15,875
and she wasn't jealous of me
577
00:19:15,876 --> 00:19:17,667
at all, which is wonderful.
578
00:19:22,125 --> 00:19:23,355
She trusted me
579
00:19:23,356 --> 00:19:24,584
with Robert, totally.
580
00:19:24,667 --> 00:19:27,542
I never was in love with him
581
00:19:27,626 --> 00:19:29,272
or had any sexual
582
00:19:29,273 --> 00:19:30,918
feelings for him,
583
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,417
but we were very close.
584
00:19:35,959 --> 00:19:38,439
We would sit
585
00:19:35,959 --> 00:19:40,918
empty room at the Chelsea,
586
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,918
in my totally white,
587
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,938
which supposedly had
588
00:19:42,939 --> 00:19:44,876
had Oscar Wilde stay in it,
589
00:19:44,959 --> 00:19:47,292
- and had had Jackson Pollock
- Stay in it.
590
00:19:47,375 --> 00:19:49,605
And I had Warhol's clouds
591
00:19:49,606 --> 00:19:51,834
floating, the helium clouds.
592
00:19:51,918 --> 00:19:53,626
That's all I had in the room,
593
00:19:53,709 --> 00:19:55,250
and a mattress.
594
00:19:55,334 --> 00:19:56,688
We lived on the floor
595
00:19:55,334 --> 00:19:58,042
to eat off of them.
596
00:19:56,689 --> 00:19:58,042
and it was clean enough
597
00:19:58,125 --> 00:20:01,083
That's exactly what we did.
598
00:20:01,167 --> 00:20:02,813
It was a 25-hour
599
00:20:02,814 --> 00:20:04,459
art show all the time,
600
00:20:04,542 --> 00:20:06,063
or movie set or whatever
601
00:20:06,064 --> 00:20:07,584
you would wanna call the life.
602
00:20:07,667 --> 00:20:09,626
- It was just
- The life being recorded.
603
00:20:09,709 --> 00:20:11,168
Reporter:
604
00:20:09,709 --> 00:20:12,626
sun-drenched studio,
605
00:20:11,169 --> 00:20:12,626
In a stark,
606
00:20:12,709 --> 00:20:14,063
lives filmmaker
607
00:20:14,064 --> 00:20:15,417
Sandra Daley.
608
00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:17,209
- Daley:
- I called him up, I said,
609
00:20:17,292 --> 00:20:18,522
"Could you bring over
610
00:20:18,523 --> 00:20:19,751
some of the things
611
00:20:19,834 --> 00:20:21,417
"and put them up on the walls?
612
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:23,727
- Because there's nothing here,
- You know, it's all white."
613
00:20:23,751 --> 00:20:25,022
And he came over
614
00:20:25,023 --> 00:20:26,292
with the stuff,
615
00:20:26,375 --> 00:20:28,688
and I looked, I thought,
616
00:20:26,375 --> 00:20:31,000
with a cock sticking out."
617
00:20:28,689 --> 00:20:31,000
"God, leather pants
618
00:20:31,083 --> 00:20:32,125
I thought, "Why not?"
619
00:20:32,126 --> 00:20:33,167
It looked fabulous.
620
00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:35,063
Mapplethorpe:
621
00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:36,876
with articles of clothing.
622
00:20:35,064 --> 00:20:36,876
I was working
623
00:20:36,959 --> 00:20:38,792
- They were kind of
- Like fetish sculpture.
624
00:20:38,876 --> 00:20:40,688
You know, if I had a jacket
625
00:20:38,876 --> 00:20:42,500
I'd put it in a piece
626
00:20:40,689 --> 00:20:42,500
that I wore all the time,
627
00:20:42,584 --> 00:20:44,168
and, you know.
628
00:20:44,169 --> 00:20:45,751
So it was like assemblage.
629
00:20:45,834 --> 00:20:47,626
What's made you
630
00:20:45,834 --> 00:20:49,417
for the past seven years?
631
00:20:47,627 --> 00:20:49,417
live in the Chelsea
632
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:51,917
Um, my friends,
633
00:20:51,918 --> 00:20:53,334
I guess, live here,
634
00:20:53,417 --> 00:20:56,500
and my teachers.
635
00:20:56,584 --> 00:20:58,292
It's my home.
636
00:20:58,375 --> 00:21:00,105
Daley:
637
00:20:58,375 --> 00:21:01,834
(laughs)
638
00:21:00,106 --> 00:21:01,834
Robert didn't say much.
639
00:21:01,918 --> 00:21:03,501
He didn't talk at all,
640
00:21:03,502 --> 00:21:05,083
did he, in that clip?
641
00:21:09,584 --> 00:21:11,167
- Man:
- Robert could sit in silence
642
00:21:11,250 --> 00:21:12,667
A lot more comfortably
643
00:21:12,668 --> 00:21:14,083
than I could.
644
00:21:15,792 --> 00:21:17,792
I'm Edward Mapplethorpe.
645
00:21:19,334 --> 00:21:21,209
Robert Mapplethorpe's brother.
646
00:21:21,292 --> 00:21:23,083
(laughs)
647
00:21:24,834 --> 00:21:26,147
I was three years of age
648
00:21:26,148 --> 00:21:27,459
when he left the house.
649
00:21:27,542 --> 00:21:29,501
I remember just waiting
650
00:21:29,502 --> 00:21:31,459
anxiously on my stoop
651
00:21:31,542 --> 00:21:32,605
and knowing Robert
652
00:21:32,606 --> 00:21:33,667
and Patti were coming.
653
00:21:33,751 --> 00:21:35,230
And then I'd be like,
654
00:21:33,751 --> 00:21:36,709
look at these guys."
655
00:21:35,231 --> 00:21:36,709
"Wow." Like, "Wow,
656
00:21:36,792 --> 00:21:38,188
I mean, they didn't
657
00:21:38,189 --> 00:21:39,584
look like anybody else.
658
00:21:39,667 --> 00:21:41,417
- They didn't talk
- Like anybody else.
659
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:43,834
- I would say, creature.
- They were like creatures.
660
00:21:43,918 --> 00:21:46,167
- Just the way he dressed,
- The way he carried himself.
661
00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:48,396
The way his hair was,
662
00:21:48,397 --> 00:21:50,542
the way, uh...
663
00:21:50,626 --> 00:21:52,542
It was just...
664
00:21:53,709 --> 00:21:56,834
It encompassed him.
665
00:21:56,918 --> 00:21:58,855
The art,
666
00:21:58,856 --> 00:22:00,792
the artist encompassed him.
667
00:22:00,876 --> 00:22:04,209
There was no separation.
668
00:22:11,334 --> 00:22:14,626
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
669
00:22:46,250 --> 00:22:47,667
Wow.
670
00:22:48,751 --> 00:22:49,980
Daley:
671
00:22:49,981 --> 00:22:51,209
I see them as exquisite.
672
00:22:52,584 --> 00:22:54,834
Most porn looks amateurish
673
00:22:54,918 --> 00:22:58,959
and lower class.
674
00:23:00,959 --> 00:23:04,125
Just make it look like,
675
00:23:04,209 --> 00:23:05,813
I think I said
676
00:23:05,814 --> 00:23:07,417
a Louis Quinze chair,
677
00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:09,209
so that it just
678
00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:10,918
takes your breath away.
679
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,876
It doesn't matter
680
00:23:12,877 --> 00:23:14,751
what the subject matter is.
681
00:23:16,292 --> 00:23:18,605
It's like a love story...
682
00:23:18,606 --> 00:23:20,918
to porn, maybe.
683
00:23:23,292 --> 00:23:25,292
- Mapplethorpe: - There was a feeling
- I could get
684
00:23:25,334 --> 00:23:27,626
- Through looking
- At pornographic imagery,
685
00:23:27,709 --> 00:23:29,147
And I thought if I could
686
00:23:27,709 --> 00:23:30,584
you know,
687
00:23:29,148 --> 00:23:30,584
somehow retain that feeling,
688
00:23:30,667 --> 00:23:32,230
it was like,
689
00:23:30,667 --> 00:23:33,792
because I was young, you know.
690
00:23:32,231 --> 00:23:33,792
maybe it was the forbidden
691
00:23:33,876 --> 00:23:35,834
That if I could get
692
00:23:33,876 --> 00:23:37,792
an art statement,
693
00:23:35,835 --> 00:23:37,792
that across and make
694
00:23:37,876 --> 00:23:39,543
make it do it in a way
695
00:23:39,544 --> 00:23:41,209
that just kind of, like,
696
00:23:41,292 --> 00:23:43,167
- reached a certain
- Kind of perfection
697
00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:45,605
That I would be doing
698
00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:47,959
uniquely my own.
699
00:23:45,606 --> 00:23:47,959
something that was
700
00:23:48,042 --> 00:23:49,542
Female curator:
701
00:23:48,042 --> 00:23:51,042
even includes a camera.
702
00:23:49,543 --> 00:23:51,042
Oh, and that one
703
00:23:51,125 --> 00:23:52,125
Right.
704
00:23:51,125 --> 00:23:53,125
He highlighted it.
705
00:23:52,126 --> 00:23:53,125
And that...
706
00:23:53,209 --> 00:23:55,560
- And this was before he was - Even making photographs.
- I think.
707
00:23:55,584 --> 00:23:57,001
But this is when
708
00:23:55,584 --> 00:23:58,417
"It may be cheaper for me..."
709
00:23:57,002 --> 00:23:58,417
he started thinking,
710
00:23:58,500 --> 00:23:59,980
Yeah. Yeah.
711
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:01,459
than buy all this porn.
712
00:23:59,981 --> 00:24:01,459
To take photographs
713
00:24:02,834 --> 00:24:04,459
- Announcer:
- Same great film...
714
00:24:04,542 --> 00:24:06,355
Mapplethorpe:
715
00:24:04,542 --> 00:24:08,167
that originated with myself.
716
00:24:06,356 --> 00:24:08,167
I wanted raw material
717
00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:10,146
I felt that I was stealing
718
00:24:10,147 --> 00:24:12,042
them from other people,
719
00:24:12,125 --> 00:24:13,584
and so that's how
720
00:24:13,585 --> 00:24:15,042
I started with the Polaroids.
721
00:24:15,125 --> 00:24:17,876
- You know, it was not because
- I wanted to be a photographer.
722
00:24:17,959 --> 00:24:19,834
♪ ♪
723
00:24:19,918 --> 00:24:21,667
- Smith:
- We had a Polaroid camera
724
00:24:21,751 --> 00:24:22,980
And Polaroid film
725
00:24:22,981 --> 00:24:24,209
was really expensive,
726
00:24:24,292 --> 00:24:26,917
so my focus
727
00:24:24,292 --> 00:24:29,542
got what he needed first.
728
00:24:26,918 --> 00:24:29,542
was always that Robert
729
00:24:29,626 --> 00:24:31,168
And we had
730
00:24:31,169 --> 00:24:32,709
so little money for film.
731
00:24:32,792 --> 00:24:34,605
We concentrated on
732
00:24:34,606 --> 00:24:36,417
getting him the film.
733
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:37,834
Mapplethorpe:
734
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:39,167
from the start.
735
00:24:37,835 --> 00:24:39,167
It was all there
736
00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:40,480
And when I first started
737
00:24:40,481 --> 00:24:41,709
taking Polaroids,
738
00:24:41,792 --> 00:24:43,459
I was working with photographs
739
00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:45,125
that dealt with sexuality,
740
00:24:45,209 --> 00:24:47,146
portraits, flowers,
741
00:24:47,147 --> 00:24:49,083
and still lives
742
00:24:49,167 --> 00:24:51,751
- because I used the still lives
- To experiment with lighting.
743
00:24:51,834 --> 00:24:54,105
These are the first times
744
00:24:54,106 --> 00:24:56,375
that Robert took emulsion.
745
00:24:56,459 --> 00:24:58,980
He washed it off
746
00:24:56,459 --> 00:25:01,500
floated above the base
747
00:24:58,981 --> 00:25:01,500
of the Polaroid till it
748
00:25:01,584 --> 00:25:03,834
and stretched them out.
749
00:25:03,918 --> 00:25:05,918
That's me, ugly as ever.
750
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,751
Here's Patti.
751
00:25:10,792 --> 00:25:14,250
And that's David Croland.
752
00:25:14,334 --> 00:25:15,563
Croland:
753
00:25:14,334 --> 00:25:16,792
a model anymore.
754
00:25:15,564 --> 00:25:16,792
I'm really not
755
00:25:16,876 --> 00:25:18,668
I'm just a...
756
00:25:18,669 --> 00:25:20,459
you know, an object.
757
00:25:20,542 --> 00:25:22,021
If you want an explanation
758
00:25:22,022 --> 00:25:23,500
of why I'm wearing this robe,
759
00:25:23,584 --> 00:25:25,313
it's for Robert,
760
00:25:25,314 --> 00:25:27,042
and Robert liked robes,
761
00:25:27,125 --> 00:25:29,250
and he liked black silk.
762
00:25:29,334 --> 00:25:31,792
- And I thought twice
- About it, and then I thought,
763
00:25:31,876 --> 00:25:33,480
"You're not gonna
764
00:25:33,481 --> 00:25:35,083
think three times."
765
00:25:35,167 --> 00:25:36,897
Patti is the first girl
766
00:25:36,898 --> 00:25:38,626
he photographed for Polaroid
767
00:25:38,709 --> 00:25:40,375
and I was the first boy.
768
00:25:41,417 --> 00:25:42,292
(pops lips)
769
00:25:42,375 --> 00:25:44,980
I met Robert in 1970
770
00:25:44,981 --> 00:25:47,584
on Memorial Day,
771
00:25:47,667 --> 00:25:50,459
on a steamy hot day.
772
00:25:50,542 --> 00:25:52,375
As soon as he got his camera,
773
00:25:52,459 --> 00:25:53,709
the film was loaded
774
00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:54,959
and my clothes were off.
775
00:25:55,042 --> 00:25:58,542
Starting with a robe
776
00:25:58,626 --> 00:26:00,272
and then the robe was, like,
777
00:26:00,273 --> 00:26:01,918
here, et cetera, et cetera.
778
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,792
- He photographed me
- A lot in that.
779
00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:05,459
And in those days,
780
00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:07,042
Polaroid film?"
781
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:07,042
I just thought, "Who cares?
782
00:26:07,125 --> 00:26:08,209
I was used
783
00:26:07,125 --> 00:26:09,292
by the big format,
784
00:26:08,210 --> 00:26:09,292
to being photographed
785
00:26:09,375 --> 00:26:10,980
you know, by...
786
00:26:10,981 --> 00:26:12,584
Should we drop some names?
787
00:26:12,667 --> 00:26:14,018
- Someone said,
- "Stop dropping names."
788
00:26:14,042 --> 00:26:16,500
- I said, "I can't help it if
- Everyone I know is fantastic."
789
00:26:16,584 --> 00:26:18,397
So I thought
790
00:26:16,584 --> 00:26:20,209
"What the hell are these?"
791
00:26:18,398 --> 00:26:20,209
these Polaroids were like,
792
00:26:20,292 --> 00:26:22,355
I saw very quickly that
793
00:26:20,292 --> 00:26:24,417
a bunch of Polaroids.
794
00:26:22,356 --> 00:26:24,417
he wasn't just stacking up
795
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:25,894
- He was making
- Stuff out of them.
796
00:26:25,918 --> 00:26:28,814
He was incorporating them
797
00:26:28,815 --> 00:26:31,709
into a new type of art,
798
00:26:31,792 --> 00:26:34,042
which no one was doing.
799
00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:35,834
No one.
800
00:26:35,918 --> 00:26:37,125
Uh-uh.
801
00:26:37,209 --> 00:26:40,001
And then someone called Patti
802
00:26:40,002 --> 00:26:42,792
to say they are boyfriends.
803
00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:45,293
So that was...
804
00:26:45,294 --> 00:26:47,709
We were busted.
805
00:26:47,792 --> 00:26:49,167
Patti knew that
806
00:26:49,168 --> 00:26:50,542
I was helping Robert,
807
00:26:50,626 --> 00:26:52,126
so there was no animosity,
808
00:26:52,127 --> 00:26:53,626
not at all.
809
00:26:53,709 --> 00:26:55,667
At least, I don't think so.
810
00:26:57,542 --> 00:26:58,917
When you're young, you don't
811
00:26:58,918 --> 00:27:00,292
have much of a conscience.
812
00:27:00,375 --> 00:27:02,334
I mean, when you're young,
813
00:27:00,375 --> 00:27:04,292
if you think.
814
00:27:02,335 --> 00:27:04,292
I don't even know
815
00:27:04,375 --> 00:27:06,647
I don't even think it's a good
816
00:27:06,648 --> 00:27:08,918
idea to think, to this day.
817
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,918
It's just better to do stuff.
818
00:27:12,918 --> 00:27:14,355
Daley:
819
00:27:12,918 --> 00:27:15,792
small amount of money.
820
00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:15,792
I had this
821
00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:17,417
I could make a movie.
822
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,438
I said, "Robert, you can pick
823
00:27:19,439 --> 00:27:21,375
out anything you want to do."
824
00:27:21,459 --> 00:27:22,522
Mapplethorpe:
825
00:27:21,459 --> 00:27:23,584
would be interesting to have
826
00:27:22,523 --> 00:27:23,584
I just thought it
827
00:27:23,667 --> 00:27:25,167
a ring through your tit
828
00:27:25,250 --> 00:27:26,688
because I maybe seen it
829
00:27:26,689 --> 00:27:28,125
in a movie or something,
830
00:27:28,209 --> 00:27:30,064
but it wasn't something
831
00:27:30,065 --> 00:27:31,918
anybody had at that moment.
832
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,896
And all of a sudden,
833
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,792
where I was...
834
00:27:33,897 --> 00:27:35,792
there was a whole situation
835
00:27:35,876 --> 00:27:39,000
to get my nipple pierced.
836
00:27:39,083 --> 00:27:40,813
I had done a number of films
837
00:27:40,814 --> 00:27:42,542
for Andy Warhol,
838
00:27:42,626 --> 00:27:44,000
so I was used...
839
00:27:44,083 --> 00:27:45,813
And as a model
840
00:27:44,083 --> 00:27:47,542
the camera trained on me.
841
00:27:45,814 --> 00:27:47,542
I was used to having
842
00:27:47,626 --> 00:27:49,459
Yes.
843
00:27:49,542 --> 00:27:51,230
But I had no idea
844
00:27:51,231 --> 00:27:52,918
where that film was going.
845
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,500
Where that film went was
846
00:27:54,501 --> 00:27:56,000
to the Museum of Modern Art,
847
00:27:56,083 --> 00:27:58,021
and it showed there
848
00:27:58,022 --> 00:27:59,959
at a big screening.
849
00:28:00,042 --> 00:28:02,042
- Man:
- MoMA was very crowded,
850
00:28:02,125 --> 00:28:03,688
And I was writing film reviews
851
00:28:03,689 --> 00:28:05,250
then for the "Village Voice,"
852
00:28:05,334 --> 00:28:06,563
and I remember Robert was
853
00:28:06,564 --> 00:28:07,792
standing against the wall
854
00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:09,688
and he had this sort of
855
00:28:09,689 --> 00:28:11,500
angelic kind of hair,
856
00:28:11,584 --> 00:28:13,063
and I guess I had a crush
857
00:28:13,064 --> 00:28:14,542
on him and whatever.
858
00:28:14,626 --> 00:28:16,709
Right way, in my mind,
859
00:28:14,626 --> 00:28:18,792
and a devil.
860
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:18,792
I saw him as an angel
861
00:28:21,292 --> 00:28:23,001
Daley:
862
00:28:21,292 --> 00:28:24,709
this brilliant monologue
863
00:28:23,002 --> 00:28:24,709
Then Patti has
864
00:28:24,792 --> 00:28:26,501
that she did
865
00:28:26,502 --> 00:28:28,209
as the soundtrack.
866
00:28:28,292 --> 00:28:29,584
Smith (in Jersey accent):
867
00:28:28,292 --> 00:28:30,876
Robert had this book in his...
868
00:28:29,585 --> 00:28:30,876
I read this book,
869
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,667
- He had this book in his drawer
- Called "Leather Boys,"
870
00:28:33,751 --> 00:28:35,126
And, like, I picked it up
871
00:28:33,751 --> 00:28:36,500
because he went out.
872
00:28:35,127 --> 00:28:36,500
the other night
873
00:28:36,584 --> 00:28:38,334
Once he got his
874
00:28:36,584 --> 00:28:40,083
down on Christopher Street.
875
00:28:38,335 --> 00:28:40,083
leather pants, he would be
876
00:28:41,459 --> 00:28:42,647
Like, it was like
877
00:28:42,648 --> 00:28:43,834
my boyfriend or nothing.
878
00:28:43,918 --> 00:28:45,001
I guess the reason...
879
00:28:43,918 --> 00:28:46,083
I don't like it
880
00:28:45,002 --> 00:28:46,083
The only reason
881
00:28:46,167 --> 00:28:47,876
- is because, like,
- They got secrets.
882
00:28:50,167 --> 00:28:51,605
Colacello:
883
00:28:50,167 --> 00:28:53,042
to the delicacy of the visuals
884
00:28:51,606 --> 00:28:53,042
"In sharp counterpoint
885
00:28:53,125 --> 00:28:55,209
"is the harsh and hilarious
886
00:28:55,210 --> 00:28:57,292
soundtrack by Patti Smith,
887
00:28:57,375 --> 00:28:58,729
"poet, Robert's
888
00:28:58,730 --> 00:29:00,083
ex-girlfriend..."
889
00:29:00,167 --> 00:29:01,751
"who, it seems, dislikes
890
00:29:01,752 --> 00:29:03,334
homosexuals because,
891
00:29:03,417 --> 00:29:06,000
"A, she feels left out,
892
00:29:06,083 --> 00:29:07,583
and B, they use
893
00:29:07,584 --> 00:29:09,083
their assholes."
894
00:29:09,167 --> 00:29:10,584
(chuckles)
895
00:29:10,667 --> 00:29:12,730
He called me after the review
896
00:29:10,667 --> 00:29:14,792
he really liked it
897
00:29:12,731 --> 00:29:14,792
came out and said that
898
00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:16,688
and could we, like,
899
00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:18,500
or something.
900
00:29:16,689 --> 00:29:18,500
meet for a cup of coffee
901
00:29:18,584 --> 00:29:21,918
♪ ♪
902
00:29:26,834 --> 00:29:28,730
Robert and I would,
903
00:29:26,834 --> 00:29:30,626
at 4:00 in the afternoon,
904
00:29:28,731 --> 00:29:30,626
you know, meet up, like,
905
00:29:30,709 --> 00:29:32,959
- go into some
- Deserted restaurant and sit...
906
00:29:33,042 --> 00:29:35,542
You know, just order coffee,
907
00:29:35,626 --> 00:29:37,459
- and he only had
- A Polaroid then.
908
00:29:37,542 --> 00:29:39,792
He didn't even have a camera.
909
00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:41,918
But he was already,
910
00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:43,959
his first exhibition,
911
00:29:41,919 --> 00:29:43,959
you know, planning on
912
00:29:44,042 --> 00:29:45,542
and who he was going to invite
913
00:29:45,543 --> 00:29:47,042
and who he hoped would come.
914
00:29:47,125 --> 00:29:49,626
- Brunnick: - This is Robert Mapplethorpe's
- Announcement
915
00:29:49,709 --> 00:29:51,459
For his first solo exhibition.
916
00:29:51,542 --> 00:29:53,709
The envelope is embossed
917
00:29:53,710 --> 00:29:55,876
by Tiffany and Company.
918
00:29:57,959 --> 00:29:59,500
It was a show of Polaroids.
919
00:29:59,584 --> 00:30:02,480
He encased his announcement
920
00:29:59,584 --> 00:30:05,375
safety cover
921
00:30:02,481 --> 00:30:05,375
in the "don't touch here"
922
00:30:05,459 --> 00:30:07,876
from the Polaroid film pack.
923
00:30:07,959 --> 00:30:09,167
Terpak:
924
00:30:07,959 --> 00:30:10,375
in several interviews,
925
00:30:09,168 --> 00:30:10,375
Mapplethorpe says
926
00:30:10,459 --> 00:30:11,897
"An exhibition doesn't begin
927
00:30:11,898 --> 00:30:13,334
when you go to the opening.
928
00:30:13,417 --> 00:30:15,001
It begins when
929
00:30:15,002 --> 00:30:16,584
you get the invitation."
930
00:30:16,667 --> 00:30:18,167
Brunnick:
931
00:30:18,168 --> 00:30:19,667
It's a small dot sticker...
932
00:30:19,751 --> 00:30:22,334
that's really not opaque.
933
00:30:22,417 --> 00:30:24,959
(laughing)
934
00:30:25,042 --> 00:30:26,584
Woman:
935
00:30:25,042 --> 00:30:28,125
want the viewer to feel
936
00:30:26,585 --> 00:30:28,125
But what do you
937
00:30:28,209 --> 00:30:29,834
- when they open
- That invitation?
938
00:30:29,918 --> 00:30:31,335
Mapplethorpe:
939
00:30:29,918 --> 00:30:32,751
that's all.
940
00:30:31,336 --> 00:30:32,751
I want them to remember it,
941
00:30:32,834 --> 00:30:34,709
- Woman:
- You're thinking of, like,
942
00:30:34,792 --> 00:30:36,188
Standing out
943
00:30:36,189 --> 00:30:37,584
from this huge mass...
944
00:30:37,667 --> 00:30:39,293
Mapplethorpe:
945
00:30:37,667 --> 00:30:40,918
of one's whole lifestyle?
946
00:30:39,294 --> 00:30:40,918
Why can't it be in terms
947
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,334
You know what I'm saying?
948
00:30:42,417 --> 00:30:45,084
The whole point
949
00:30:42,417 --> 00:30:47,751
or making a statement
950
00:30:45,085 --> 00:30:47,751
of being an artist
951
00:30:47,834 --> 00:30:49,542
is to learn about yourself.
952
00:30:49,626 --> 00:30:51,667
- I think that's
- The most important part.
953
00:30:51,751 --> 00:30:53,376
The photographs, I think,
954
00:30:53,377 --> 00:30:55,000
are less important
955
00:30:55,083 --> 00:30:56,667
than the life
956
00:30:56,668 --> 00:30:58,250
that one is leading.
957
00:30:58,334 --> 00:31:01,000
♪ ♪
958
00:31:09,626 --> 00:31:12,251
I would just run around
959
00:31:12,252 --> 00:31:14,876
and give people their food.
960
00:31:14,959 --> 00:31:17,397
And it really was
961
00:31:14,959 --> 00:31:19,834
of downtown artists.
962
00:31:17,398 --> 00:31:19,834
a comprehensive scene
963
00:31:19,918 --> 00:31:23,001
Not a closed world,
964
00:31:19,918 --> 00:31:26,083
like a clubhouse in a way.
965
00:31:23,002 --> 00:31:26,083
but it was, you know, almost
966
00:31:30,667 --> 00:31:32,521
Woman:
967
00:31:30,667 --> 00:31:34,375
almost every night of my life.
968
00:31:32,522 --> 00:31:34,375
I probably saw Robert
969
00:31:34,459 --> 00:31:36,626
You know, most people
970
00:31:34,459 --> 00:31:38,792
in such horrible places
971
00:31:36,627 --> 00:31:38,792
that I knew lived
972
00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:40,814
that you really only knew
973
00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:42,751
if you had sex with them.
974
00:31:40,815 --> 00:31:42,751
where they lived
975
00:31:42,834 --> 00:31:44,480
Lots of times in Max's,
976
00:31:42,834 --> 00:31:46,125
you know.
977
00:31:44,481 --> 00:31:46,125
he would come and sit with me,
978
00:31:46,209 --> 00:31:48,459
- It was probably the time
- I enjoyed Robert the most
979
00:31:48,542 --> 00:31:50,584
- Because he was
- An incredibly amusing gossip.
980
00:31:50,667 --> 00:31:52,709
He was extremely good-looking
981
00:31:50,667 --> 00:31:54,751
you know.
982
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:54,751
in a very particular way,
983
00:31:54,834 --> 00:31:56,167
Croland:
984
00:31:56,168 --> 00:31:57,500
No one that saw Robert
985
00:31:57,584 --> 00:31:59,042
did not have a crush
986
00:31:59,043 --> 00:32:00,500
on him immediately.
987
00:32:00,584 --> 00:32:02,168
No one. Everyone.
988
00:32:02,169 --> 00:32:03,751
Dogs liked him.
989
00:32:03,834 --> 00:32:06,022
He looked kind of like,
990
00:32:03,834 --> 00:32:08,209
ruined cupid.
991
00:32:06,023 --> 00:32:08,209
you know, a kind of
992
00:32:08,292 --> 00:32:10,813
And he was very reliant
993
00:32:10,814 --> 00:32:13,334
on his charm, you know.
994
00:32:13,417 --> 00:32:14,876
I mean, in other words,
995
00:32:14,877 --> 00:32:16,334
he made great use of it,
996
00:32:16,417 --> 00:32:17,626
by which I mean,
997
00:32:17,627 --> 00:32:18,834
productive to Robert.
998
00:32:18,918 --> 00:32:20,730
Croland:
999
00:32:18,918 --> 00:32:22,542
Robert didn't have to hustle.
1000
00:32:20,731 --> 00:32:22,542
Robert was not a hustler.
1001
00:32:22,626 --> 00:32:25,209
People hustled Robert...
1002
00:32:25,292 --> 00:32:26,730
mainly out of his pants
1003
00:32:26,731 --> 00:32:28,167
if they could.
1004
00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:29,792
Me too, by the way.
1005
00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:32,418
Robert didn't think anything
1006
00:32:32,419 --> 00:32:34,959
was wrong with his ambition.
1007
00:32:35,042 --> 00:32:36,792
- He didn't think of it
- As selling out.
1008
00:32:36,876 --> 00:32:39,647
He didn't think...
1009
00:32:36,876 --> 00:32:42,417
the way that people now do.
1010
00:32:39,648 --> 00:32:42,417
He just, you know, pursued it
1011
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:43,792
Man:
1012
00:32:43,793 --> 00:32:45,083
Was Robert ambitious?
1013
00:32:47,334 --> 00:32:50,375
There is no word for it.
1014
00:32:50,459 --> 00:32:52,834
For either of them.
1015
00:32:52,918 --> 00:32:57,375
That is an understatement.
1016
00:32:57,459 --> 00:32:59,125
For both of them.
1017
00:33:03,167 --> 00:33:04,542
Yeah.
1018
00:33:07,250 --> 00:33:08,918
Unbelievably.
1019
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,792
- Colacello:
- I went away for a summer,
1020
00:33:11,876 --> 00:33:14,001
And when I got back,
1021
00:33:14,002 --> 00:33:16,125
Robert was suddenly into S&M.
1022
00:33:17,292 --> 00:33:18,626
Croland:
1023
00:33:17,292 --> 00:33:19,959
at his place
1024
00:33:18,627 --> 00:33:19,959
One day, I showed up
1025
00:33:20,042 --> 00:33:21,709
- and he was wearing
- Leather pants
1026
00:33:21,792 --> 00:33:23,084
And it looked like a radio
1027
00:33:23,085 --> 00:33:24,375
attached to his crotch.
1028
00:33:24,459 --> 00:33:25,859
- I said,
- "What the hell is that?"
1029
00:33:25,918 --> 00:33:28,500
- He said, "Oh, it's a codpiece.
- Isn't it great?"
1030
00:33:28,584 --> 00:33:30,230
I said, "This is like
1031
00:33:28,584 --> 00:33:31,876
you keep dressing like this."
1032
00:33:30,231 --> 00:33:31,876
the beginning of the end if
1033
00:33:31,959 --> 00:33:34,605
He started to trick me out
1034
00:33:31,959 --> 00:33:37,250
and handcuffs.
1035
00:33:34,606 --> 00:33:37,250
in leather jackets
1036
00:33:37,334 --> 00:33:39,397
He started to get
1037
00:33:39,398 --> 00:33:41,459
not me, at all,
1038
00:33:41,542 --> 00:33:43,292
and more him,
1039
00:33:43,375 --> 00:33:44,667
and he wanted me to go...
1040
00:33:44,668 --> 00:33:45,959
Always to go further.
1041
00:33:46,042 --> 00:33:48,271
And I thought,
1042
00:33:46,042 --> 00:33:50,500
I'm a model."
1043
00:33:48,272 --> 00:33:50,500
"That's not gonna happen.
1044
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,771
Sam Wagstaff, I only knew that
1045
00:33:54,772 --> 00:33:57,542
he was eccentric, handsome,
1046
00:33:57,626 --> 00:34:00,063
and then when
1047
00:33:57,626 --> 00:34:02,500
later that day, rich.
1048
00:34:00,064 --> 00:34:02,500
he took me to this loft
1049
00:34:02,584 --> 00:34:04,188
But right before we went
1050
00:34:04,189 --> 00:34:05,792
to his loft on Bond Street,
1051
00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:07,626
he spied a little,
1052
00:34:07,627 --> 00:34:09,375
tiny picture of Robert
1053
00:34:09,459 --> 00:34:10,876
taken in a photo booth
1054
00:34:10,877 --> 00:34:12,292
with a little sailor cap on.
1055
00:34:12,375 --> 00:34:14,250
- It looked like
- A Jean Genet drawing.
1056
00:34:14,334 --> 00:34:16,584
And he said, "Who is this?"
1057
00:34:16,667 --> 00:34:18,147
I said, "That's my
1058
00:34:18,148 --> 00:34:19,626
soon-to-be ex-boyfriend."
1059
00:34:19,709 --> 00:34:21,126
So I called Robert up
1060
00:34:21,127 --> 00:34:22,542
and I said, "Listen.
1061
00:34:22,626 --> 00:34:23,689
"Your ship's come in,
1062
00:34:23,690 --> 00:34:24,751
it's in my harbor.
1063
00:34:24,834 --> 00:34:26,375
- "You're gonna
- Jump on this boat.
1064
00:34:26,459 --> 00:34:28,689
You're gonna love him,
1065
00:34:26,459 --> 00:34:30,918
I can tell."
1066
00:34:28,690 --> 00:34:30,918
he's gonna love you,
1067
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,209
They had a date that week,
1068
00:34:33,292 --> 00:34:34,813
and they fell in love
1069
00:34:34,814 --> 00:34:36,334
very quickly.
1070
00:34:36,417 --> 00:34:37,709
Sam was his protector,
1071
00:34:37,710 --> 00:34:39,000
in every way.
1072
00:34:39,083 --> 00:34:40,480
You know, in the way that
1073
00:34:40,481 --> 00:34:41,876
girls are protected by men.
1074
00:34:41,959 --> 00:34:44,959
It was a beautiful match.
1075
00:34:45,042 --> 00:34:48,876
Beautiful. Really beautiful.
1076
00:34:48,959 --> 00:34:52,250
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
1077
00:35:13,792 --> 00:35:15,688
I knew other people who had
1078
00:35:13,792 --> 00:35:17,584
and stuff like that,
1079
00:35:15,689 --> 00:35:17,584
older guys who supported them
1080
00:35:17,667 --> 00:35:19,792
but Sam devoted himself.
1081
00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:21,459
The career Robert had,
1082
00:35:21,542 --> 00:35:23,584
- I don't believe
- Would've existed without Sam.
1083
00:35:23,667 --> 00:35:26,083
♪ ♪
1084
00:35:42,292 --> 00:35:44,438
I met him when he moved
1085
00:35:44,439 --> 00:35:46,584
next to us on Bond Street,
1086
00:35:46,667 --> 00:35:48,251
so he was literally
1087
00:35:48,252 --> 00:35:49,834
the boy next door,
1088
00:35:49,918 --> 00:35:51,855
and we just instantly
1089
00:35:51,856 --> 00:35:53,792
became friends.
1090
00:35:55,292 --> 00:35:57,396
Woman:
1091
00:35:55,292 --> 00:35:59,500
street in New York.
1092
00:35:57,397 --> 00:35:59,500
It's this little cobblestone
1093
00:35:59,584 --> 00:36:01,542
Robert lived
1094
00:36:01,543 --> 00:36:03,500
at 24 Bond Street,
1095
00:36:03,584 --> 00:36:05,397
and Brice and Helen Marden
1096
00:36:05,398 --> 00:36:07,209
lived at 26 Bond Street,
1097
00:36:07,292 --> 00:36:09,584
and I lived at 42 Bond Street.
1098
00:36:09,667 --> 00:36:11,751
And the '70s in New York was
1099
00:36:11,752 --> 00:36:13,834
very different than now.
1100
00:36:13,918 --> 00:36:16,292
New York was bankrupt,
1101
00:36:16,375 --> 00:36:17,938
things were pretty
1102
00:36:17,939 --> 00:36:19,500
corrupt and violent.
1103
00:36:19,584 --> 00:36:21,125
There was a lot of crime,
1104
00:36:21,209 --> 00:36:23,438
and, you know, Bond and Bowery
1105
00:36:23,439 --> 00:36:25,667
was in the middle of,
1106
00:36:25,751 --> 00:36:27,835
you know, people
1107
00:36:27,836 --> 00:36:29,918
sleeping in the doorways
1108
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,167
and lying on the streets,
1109
00:36:32,250 --> 00:36:35,125
but it was the art world.
1110
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:38,959
Woman:
1111
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:40,417
I was hysterical.
1112
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,417
When we first moved here,
1113
00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:42,209
I said, "We've just spent
1114
00:36:42,210 --> 00:36:43,918
40,000 bucks on this dump.
1115
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,667
- "And look at this area.
- Look at this."
1116
00:36:45,751 --> 00:36:48,125
- I mean, it's, like, miles
- Before you can get
1117
00:36:48,209 --> 00:36:49,646
To a restaurant,
1118
00:36:49,647 --> 00:36:51,083
a grocery store,
1119
00:36:51,167 --> 00:36:53,626
- you know, a light at night,
- The place is dark.
1120
00:36:53,709 --> 00:36:55,001
You had this beautiful,
1121
00:36:55,002 --> 00:36:56,292
free-flowing stream,
1122
00:36:56,375 --> 00:36:57,584
then there'd be all
1123
00:36:57,585 --> 00:36:58,792
the soapsuds and garbage.
1124
00:36:58,876 --> 00:37:00,168
Junkies.
1125
00:36:58,876 --> 00:37:01,459
Bond Street was.
1126
00:37:00,169 --> 00:37:01,459
You see, that's the way
1127
00:37:01,542 --> 00:37:03,501
Helen:
1128
00:37:01,542 --> 00:37:05,459
the last time I tracked it,
1129
00:37:03,502 --> 00:37:05,459
And now, of course,
1130
00:37:05,542 --> 00:37:07,855
the penthouse
1131
00:37:05,542 --> 00:37:10,167
sold for 19 million.
1132
00:37:07,856 --> 00:37:10,167
in that building, I think,
1133
00:37:12,375 --> 00:37:14,396
I never thought we'd have
1134
00:37:14,397 --> 00:37:16,417
any money. Did you?
1135
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:18,813
No, it wasn't...
1136
00:37:18,814 --> 00:37:21,125
It wasn't the intention.
1137
00:37:21,209 --> 00:37:23,418
I mean, it wasn't
1138
00:37:21,209 --> 00:37:25,626
a band of innocents, you know.
1139
00:37:23,419 --> 00:37:25,626
as though it was just
1140
00:37:25,709 --> 00:37:28,480
You came to New York
1141
00:37:25,709 --> 00:37:31,250
to be in New York,
1142
00:37:28,481 --> 00:37:31,250
because you felt you had
1143
00:37:31,334 --> 00:37:33,751
you know, or else you would
1144
00:37:31,334 --> 00:37:36,167
that was nice to live.
1145
00:37:33,752 --> 00:37:36,167
have just gone to some place
1146
00:37:38,375 --> 00:37:39,709
- Helen:
- He loved coming over
1147
00:37:39,792 --> 00:37:41,751
- And taking photographs
- Of my bats.
1148
00:37:41,834 --> 00:37:43,501
You know, he wasn't
1149
00:37:41,834 --> 00:37:45,167
in the beginning.
1150
00:37:43,502 --> 00:37:45,167
Robert Mapplethorpe
1151
00:37:45,250 --> 00:37:47,813
You know, there was
1152
00:37:45,250 --> 00:37:50,375
Robert Mapplethorpe, right?
1153
00:37:47,814 --> 00:37:50,375
no thought that this was
1154
00:37:50,459 --> 00:37:52,125
- Right, Brice?
- Right, yeah.
1155
00:37:52,209 --> 00:37:54,584
Nothing, you know. We were
1156
00:37:52,209 --> 00:37:56,959
and chatting about it.
1157
00:37:54,585 --> 00:37:56,959
just all doing our work
1158
00:37:58,667 --> 00:38:00,147
Colacello:
1159
00:37:58,667 --> 00:38:01,626
little used book stores
1160
00:38:00,148 --> 00:38:01,626
We'd go to these funny
1161
00:38:01,709 --> 00:38:03,668
and they'd have, like,
1162
00:38:01,709 --> 00:38:05,626
with old postcards
1163
00:38:03,669 --> 00:38:05,626
cardboard boxes filled
1164
00:38:05,709 --> 00:38:07,500
- and filled with
- Old photo prints,
1165
00:38:07,584 --> 00:38:09,685
- And Robert would go through
- Them and he'd find, you know,
1166
00:38:09,709 --> 00:38:11,855
A Weston or a Steichen
1167
00:38:11,856 --> 00:38:14,000
or something.
1168
00:38:14,083 --> 00:38:15,750
And it was like no one knew
1169
00:38:14,083 --> 00:38:17,417
$5 or $10,
1170
00:38:15,751 --> 00:38:17,417
what it was, and it was like
1171
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:19,938
and he would do that much more
1172
00:38:19,939 --> 00:38:22,375
once he got together with Sam.
1173
00:38:22,459 --> 00:38:23,938
Mapplethorpe: See, what
1174
00:38:22,459 --> 00:38:25,417
collecting photography,
1175
00:38:23,939 --> 00:38:25,417
happened is I started
1176
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:27,771
so I studied it through
1177
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:30,042
in my hand,
1178
00:38:27,772 --> 00:38:30,042
holding these pictures
1179
00:38:30,125 --> 00:38:32,876
- which is probably the best way
- To study photography.
1180
00:38:32,959 --> 00:38:35,063
Robert and I liked to lie
1181
00:38:32,959 --> 00:38:37,167
the photographs Sam bought,
1182
00:38:35,064 --> 00:38:37,167
on his bed and look at all
1183
00:38:37,250 --> 00:38:39,313
and then he would tell me
1184
00:38:37,250 --> 00:38:41,375
and we would laugh.
1185
00:38:39,314 --> 00:38:41,375
how much they were worth
1186
00:38:41,459 --> 00:38:43,000
(laughing)
1187
00:38:43,083 --> 00:38:44,875
Never having really looked
1188
00:38:44,876 --> 00:38:46,667
at photographs as art,
1189
00:38:46,751 --> 00:38:49,043
it really took Robert
1190
00:38:49,044 --> 00:38:51,334
to bring me to photography.
1191
00:38:51,417 --> 00:38:54,834
(chattering)
1192
00:38:54,918 --> 00:38:56,000
What are you up to?
1193
00:38:56,083 --> 00:38:57,083
I've been working.
1194
00:38:57,167 --> 00:38:59,250
- You should see
- Some of Robert's works.
1195
00:38:59,334 --> 00:39:00,894
- I'll be getting down
- After the sale.
1196
00:39:00,918 --> 00:39:02,959
Wagstaff:
1197
00:39:00,918 --> 00:39:05,000
about the quality
1198
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,000
There was something
1199
00:39:05,083 --> 00:39:07,480
of even the Polaroids,
1200
00:39:07,481 --> 00:39:09,876
which startled me.
1201
00:39:09,959 --> 00:39:12,501
Something very knife-sharp
1202
00:39:12,502 --> 00:39:15,042
about his work.
1203
00:39:15,125 --> 00:39:16,584
I think this is the most
1204
00:39:15,125 --> 00:39:18,042
in the archive
1205
00:39:16,585 --> 00:39:18,042
intimate thing we have
1206
00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:20,250
- between Sam and Robert.
- Mm-hmm.
1207
00:39:20,334 --> 00:39:21,500
Robert doesn't write,
1208
00:39:21,584 --> 00:39:23,876
so in a way, this linen album
1209
00:39:23,877 --> 00:39:26,167
is his love letter to Sam.
1210
00:39:26,250 --> 00:39:27,896
You can see the dialogue
1211
00:39:27,897 --> 00:39:29,542
that's going on between them
1212
00:39:29,626 --> 00:39:31,834
about photography, and love
1213
00:39:31,835 --> 00:39:34,042
and all that sexuality.
1214
00:39:34,125 --> 00:39:35,459
Yeah.
1215
00:39:35,542 --> 00:39:37,230
Wagstaff:
1216
00:39:35,542 --> 00:39:38,918
slightly embarrassed
1217
00:39:37,231 --> 00:39:38,918
I used to be
1218
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,709
by certain photographs
1219
00:39:41,710 --> 00:39:44,417
that Robert took.
1220
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:48,209
He helped me get over that.
1221
00:39:48,292 --> 00:39:50,417
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
1222
00:40:00,542 --> 00:40:03,813
Robert, has always liked
1223
00:40:00,542 --> 00:40:07,083
of pornography.
1224
00:40:03,814 --> 00:40:07,083
to play on the edge
1225
00:40:07,167 --> 00:40:08,543
Mapplethorpe:
1226
00:40:07,167 --> 00:40:09,918
fascinated with the idea
1227
00:40:08,544 --> 00:40:09,918
I always was
1228
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,521
of taking a loaded
1229
00:40:11,522 --> 00:40:13,042
subject like sexuality
1230
00:40:13,125 --> 00:40:15,522
and somehow bringing it
1231
00:40:13,125 --> 00:40:17,918
been to before.
1232
00:40:15,523 --> 00:40:17,918
to a level that it hadn't
1233
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,750
Wagstaff:
1234
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,500
wedded to truth
1235
00:40:19,751 --> 00:40:21,500
He's absolutely
1236
00:40:21,584 --> 00:40:24,668
and opens it up
1237
00:40:21,584 --> 00:40:27,751
in an almost surgical way.
1238
00:40:24,669 --> 00:40:27,751
in front of his camera
1239
00:40:27,834 --> 00:40:28,938
Mapplethorpe:
1240
00:40:27,834 --> 00:40:30,042
somebody saying,
1241
00:40:28,939 --> 00:40:30,042
And I remember
1242
00:40:30,125 --> 00:40:32,852
- "You know, you really - Shouldn't do that
because it's - Gonna fuck up your career."
1243
00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:34,834
And I said I thought
1244
00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:36,792
to even think that way.
1245
00:40:34,835 --> 00:40:36,792
it was stupid for him
1246
00:40:36,876 --> 00:40:38,709
I was convinced that
1247
00:40:36,876 --> 00:40:40,542
the right thing to be doing.
1248
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:40,542
what I was doing was
1249
00:40:40,626 --> 00:40:43,709
♪ ♪
1250
00:40:52,209 --> 00:40:54,813
Berlin:
1251
00:40:52,209 --> 00:40:57,417
on Fire Island,
1252
00:40:54,814 --> 00:40:57,417
I met Robert in the early '70s
1253
00:40:57,500 --> 00:40:59,959
where his friend, Wagstaff,
1254
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,417
was renting a beautiful house
1255
00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:05,375
and they invited me to stay.
1256
00:41:08,417 --> 00:41:11,709
The '70s was a sexual time,
1257
00:41:11,792 --> 00:41:13,563
and Fire Island,
1258
00:41:13,564 --> 00:41:15,334
we went for sex,
1259
00:41:15,417 --> 00:41:18,792
for that
1260
00:41:15,417 --> 00:41:22,167
of sexual encounters.
1261
00:41:18,793 --> 00:41:22,167
beautiful availability
1262
00:41:22,250 --> 00:41:24,896
I mean, the drugs
1263
00:41:24,897 --> 00:41:27,542
were floating around.
1264
00:41:27,626 --> 00:41:29,834
It was heaven.
1265
00:41:29,918 --> 00:41:32,126
Whenever we went out,
1266
00:41:32,127 --> 00:41:34,334
I was recognized, right?
1267
00:41:34,417 --> 00:41:36,063
And people stopped me
1268
00:41:36,064 --> 00:41:37,709
and Robert liked that,
1269
00:41:37,792 --> 00:41:40,688
and he was craving
1270
00:41:37,792 --> 00:41:43,584
to be seen with me,
1271
00:41:40,689 --> 00:41:43,584
for fame and he enjoyed
1272
00:41:43,667 --> 00:41:47,209
but he was sort of
1273
00:41:43,667 --> 00:41:50,751
who should be recognized.
1274
00:41:47,210 --> 00:41:50,751
feeling he should be the one
1275
00:41:50,834 --> 00:41:53,480
And so I agreed,
1276
00:41:53,481 --> 00:41:56,125
as a friend, to pose for him.
1277
00:41:56,209 --> 00:41:57,376
Then when
1278
00:41:57,377 --> 00:41:58,542
the weekend was over,
1279
00:41:58,626 --> 00:42:01,918
Robert went back to New York
1280
00:42:01,919 --> 00:42:05,209
City to work on his career.
1281
00:42:05,292 --> 00:42:06,646
For me, the ambition
1282
00:42:06,647 --> 00:42:08,000
was to get laid.
1283
00:42:08,083 --> 00:42:10,563
Robert's ambition was
1284
00:42:08,083 --> 00:42:13,042
and that's why he is,
1285
00:42:10,564 --> 00:42:13,042
to be a great photographer
1286
00:42:13,125 --> 00:42:15,604
because in order
1287
00:42:13,125 --> 00:42:18,083
you had to work hard.
1288
00:42:15,605 --> 00:42:18,083
to be a Mapplethorpe,
1289
00:42:18,167 --> 00:42:21,209
♪ ♪
1290
00:42:21,292 --> 00:42:22,334
Man:
1291
00:42:21,292 --> 00:42:23,375
my office at "Drummer,"
1292
00:42:22,335 --> 00:42:23,375
He walked into
1293
00:42:23,459 --> 00:42:24,980
a major gay magazine
1294
00:42:24,981 --> 00:42:26,500
where I was the editor,
1295
00:42:26,584 --> 00:42:27,876
wearing leather chaps
1296
00:42:27,877 --> 00:42:29,167
and a leather jacket,
1297
00:42:29,250 --> 00:42:30,396
carrying a black
1298
00:42:30,397 --> 00:42:31,542
leather portfolio,
1299
00:42:31,626 --> 00:42:33,501
and said, "Hello,
1300
00:42:33,502 --> 00:42:35,375
I'm Robert Mapplethorpe,
1301
00:42:35,459 --> 00:42:37,417
- the pornographic
- Photographer."
1302
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:38,730
Well, everybody that came
1303
00:42:38,731 --> 00:42:39,959
to my desk
1304
00:42:40,042 --> 00:42:41,959
- was a pornographic
- Photographer.
1305
00:42:42,042 --> 00:42:43,501
The problem in the '70s
1306
00:42:43,502 --> 00:42:44,959
was everybody was having sex.
1307
00:42:45,042 --> 00:42:46,626
- Photographers
- Weren't shooting,
1308
00:42:46,709 --> 00:42:48,918
- Painters weren't painting,
- Writers weren't writing,
1309
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,918
But Robert was functioning.
1310
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,125
- And we ended up in bed,
- Then we became
1311
00:42:53,209 --> 00:42:55,105
Bicoastal lovers
1312
00:42:55,106 --> 00:42:57,000
for the next three years.
1313
00:42:57,083 --> 00:42:58,375
He knew that he needed
1314
00:42:58,376 --> 00:42:59,667
to be written about,
1315
00:42:59,751 --> 00:43:02,000
- which is one of the reasons
- He came to "Drummer."
1316
00:43:02,083 --> 00:43:04,292
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
1317
00:43:08,626 --> 00:43:09,751
Fritscher:
1318
00:43:08,626 --> 00:43:10,876
writers that he approached.
1319
00:43:09,752 --> 00:43:10,876
I was just one of many
1320
00:43:10,959 --> 00:43:12,521
I mean, nearly all of his
1321
00:43:12,522 --> 00:43:14,083
friends were writers.
1322
00:43:14,167 --> 00:43:15,709
He wanted to be a legend.
1323
00:43:15,792 --> 00:43:17,876
He told me he wanted to be
1324
00:43:15,792 --> 00:43:19,959
around the world.
1325
00:43:17,877 --> 00:43:19,959
a story told in beds at night
1326
00:43:20,042 --> 00:43:22,209
He had that kind of drive,
1327
00:43:22,292 --> 00:43:23,980
and in a way, that's part
1328
00:43:23,981 --> 00:43:25,667
of what makes geniuses,
1329
00:43:25,751 --> 00:43:27,835
this self-centeredness
1330
00:43:25,751 --> 00:43:29,918
to use people.
1331
00:43:27,836 --> 00:43:29,918
and this ability
1332
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,250
So I was someone
1333
00:43:31,251 --> 00:43:32,500
who could help Robert.
1334
00:43:32,584 --> 00:43:34,563
I had that power of being
1335
00:43:34,564 --> 00:43:36,542
editor of "Interview,"
1336
00:43:36,626 --> 00:43:38,459
- but I don't think
- We used him that much
1337
00:43:38,542 --> 00:43:40,959
- Because I was aware
- That Andy didn't like him.
1338
00:43:41,042 --> 00:43:43,500
- He always just said,
- "Oh, he's so dirty-looking,"
1339
00:43:43,584 --> 00:43:44,584
And, you know,
1340
00:43:44,585 --> 00:43:45,585
"He's so creepy,"
1341
00:43:45,667 --> 00:43:47,643
- and Andy didn't like
- Anybody who took Polaroids.
1342
00:43:47,667 --> 00:43:49,542
He thought he sort of was
1343
00:43:47,667 --> 00:43:51,417
be taking Polaroids.
1344
00:43:49,543 --> 00:43:51,417
the only person who should
1345
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:54,438
But once Andy realized that
1346
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:57,375
he started to like him.
1347
00:43:54,439 --> 00:43:57,375
Robert was with Sam Wagstaff,
1348
00:43:57,459 --> 00:43:59,334
So it was okay for me to then
1349
00:43:59,335 --> 00:44:01,209
use him for "Interview,"
1350
00:44:01,292 --> 00:44:03,542
and we sent him to Mustique.
1351
00:44:06,709 --> 00:44:09,001
We met Robert, my husband
1352
00:44:09,002 --> 00:44:11,292
and I, on our way to Mustique,
1353
00:44:11,375 --> 00:44:14,709
in a private little plane.
1354
00:44:14,792 --> 00:44:16,918
I haven't heard of him at all,
1355
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,167
but I was fascinated
1356
00:44:18,168 --> 00:44:19,334
by his mind,
1357
00:44:19,417 --> 00:44:21,230
and on top of that,
1358
00:44:21,231 --> 00:44:23,042
he was so good-looking.
1359
00:44:23,125 --> 00:44:25,001
He said, at one point,
1360
00:44:25,002 --> 00:44:26,876
"I want to photograph you."
1361
00:44:26,959 --> 00:44:28,334
And I said, "No way."
1362
00:44:28,417 --> 00:44:30,083
And he said, "You know what?
1363
00:44:30,167 --> 00:44:33,042
"You might regret it later,
1364
00:44:33,125 --> 00:44:35,313
"because I'm going
1365
00:44:33,125 --> 00:44:37,500
and great photographer,
1366
00:44:35,314 --> 00:44:37,500
to be a fantastic
1367
00:44:37,584 --> 00:44:39,209
and you're not going to have
1368
00:44:39,210 --> 00:44:40,834
a photograph taken by me."
1369
00:44:43,334 --> 00:44:44,480
Colacello:
1370
00:44:43,334 --> 00:44:45,626
with the aristocracy,
1371
00:44:44,481 --> 00:44:45,626
He was a big hit
1372
00:44:45,709 --> 00:44:47,417
and he loved Mustique
1373
00:44:47,418 --> 00:44:49,125
and then Mustique loved him.
1374
00:44:49,209 --> 00:44:52,334
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
1375
00:45:00,834 --> 00:45:02,834
- He was living this double
- Kind of life
1376
00:45:02,918 --> 00:45:04,230
Where he would be uptown
1377
00:45:02,918 --> 00:45:05,542
Mm-hmm.
1378
00:45:04,231 --> 00:45:05,542
at a fancy dinner...
1379
00:45:05,626 --> 00:45:07,689
And then he would go
1380
00:45:07,690 --> 00:45:09,751
to the Mine Shaft.
1381
00:45:09,834 --> 00:45:11,876
It looks well-worn.
1382
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,292
(laughing)
1383
00:45:13,375 --> 00:45:14,667
Can you imagine it?
1384
00:45:13,375 --> 00:45:15,959
Back pocket.
1385
00:45:14,668 --> 00:45:15,959
It's not just a souvenir.
1386
00:45:16,042 --> 00:45:18,376
Well, that was one of
1387
00:45:16,042 --> 00:45:20,709
his models, The Mine Shaft.
1388
00:45:18,377 --> 00:45:20,709
the key places he went to find
1389
00:45:20,792 --> 00:45:23,209
♪ ♪
1390
00:45:26,375 --> 00:45:28,417
Fritscher:
1391
00:45:26,375 --> 00:45:30,459
for all those years
1392
00:45:28,418 --> 00:45:30,459
What went on in the Mine Shaft
1393
00:45:30,542 --> 00:45:33,855
was two floors of
1394
00:45:33,856 --> 00:45:37,167
the most outrageous sex
1395
00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:41,375
had this side of Ancient Rome.
1396
00:45:41,459 --> 00:45:44,042
All kinds of S&M sex,
1397
00:45:44,125 --> 00:45:46,250
scatological sex, fetish sex,
1398
00:45:46,334 --> 00:45:47,813
from the sling, to the stocks,
1399
00:45:47,814 --> 00:45:49,292
to the whipping post.
1400
00:45:49,375 --> 00:45:51,688
People talked of a famous
1401
00:45:49,375 --> 00:45:54,000
always somebody in it,
1402
00:45:51,689 --> 00:45:54,000
bathtub, I mean, there was
1403
00:45:54,083 --> 00:45:56,480
and a ring of men around it,
1404
00:45:56,481 --> 00:45:58,876
one, two, three layers deep,
1405
00:45:58,959 --> 00:46:00,647
everybody jerking off,
1406
00:46:00,648 --> 00:46:02,334
touching each other, moving.
1407
00:46:02,417 --> 00:46:03,626
It's just like a scrum
1408
00:46:03,627 --> 00:46:04,834
around that bathtub.
1409
00:46:04,918 --> 00:46:07,209
And then the ones in the first
1410
00:46:04,918 --> 00:46:09,500
whoever was in the bathtub.
1411
00:46:07,210 --> 00:46:09,500
line would piss all over
1412
00:46:11,417 --> 00:46:12,563
Mapplethorpe:
1413
00:46:11,417 --> 00:46:13,709
with sexuality
1414
00:46:12,564 --> 00:46:13,709
The work dealing
1415
00:46:13,792 --> 00:46:16,167
is very directly related
1416
00:46:16,168 --> 00:46:18,542
to my own experiences.
1417
00:46:18,626 --> 00:46:21,626
It was an area that
1418
00:46:18,626 --> 00:46:24,626
in contemporary art,
1419
00:46:21,627 --> 00:46:24,626
hadn't been explored
1420
00:46:24,709 --> 00:46:27,501
and so it was an area
1421
00:46:24,709 --> 00:46:30,292
of making my statement.
1422
00:46:27,502 --> 00:46:30,292
that interested me in terms
1423
00:46:30,375 --> 00:46:32,459
I was in the perfect situation
1424
00:46:30,375 --> 00:46:34,542
in those photographs
1425
00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:34,542
in that most of the people
1426
00:46:34,626 --> 00:46:36,313
were friends of mine,
1427
00:46:36,314 --> 00:46:38,000
and they trusted me.
1428
00:46:38,083 --> 00:46:40,980
And I felt like
1429
00:46:38,083 --> 00:46:43,876
to record those things.
1430
00:46:40,981 --> 00:46:43,876
it was an obligation
1431
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:47,584
Robert and I first met...
1432
00:46:47,585 --> 00:46:49,667
at The Mine Shaft.
1433
00:46:49,751 --> 00:46:52,125
- He comes over and I'm like,
- "Oh, here it goes.
1434
00:46:52,209 --> 00:46:54,375
"We're gonna have an orgy
1435
00:46:54,459 --> 00:46:56,584
or go down in the basement."
1436
00:46:56,667 --> 00:46:58,500
He was very good-looking,
1437
00:46:58,584 --> 00:47:00,397
you know, all in black
1438
00:46:58,584 --> 00:47:02,209
It was hot.
1439
00:47:00,398 --> 00:47:02,209
leather. It was like...
1440
00:47:02,292 --> 00:47:04,500
- He said,
- "Let's get out of here,"
1441
00:47:04,584 --> 00:47:07,688
And we went home, did a bit
1442
00:47:07,689 --> 00:47:10,792
of coke, had some sex.
1443
00:47:10,876 --> 00:47:13,459
Very, very, vanilla sex.
1444
00:47:13,542 --> 00:47:15,459
- He looked bored
- Out of his mind.
1445
00:47:15,542 --> 00:47:17,375
- And we were up
- In to two hours.
1446
00:47:17,459 --> 00:47:20,668
Just as I was nodding off,
1447
00:47:20,669 --> 00:47:23,876
get up to do the first shoot.
1448
00:47:23,959 --> 00:47:25,855
We did it like 6:30,
1449
00:47:25,856 --> 00:47:27,751
7:00 in the morning.
1450
00:47:27,834 --> 00:47:29,584
He said he liked the light
1451
00:47:29,585 --> 00:47:31,334
coming in the window.
1452
00:47:31,417 --> 00:47:33,001
Mapplethorpe:
1453
00:47:31,417 --> 00:47:34,584
a documentary in a sense,
1454
00:47:33,002 --> 00:47:34,584
It becomes
1455
00:47:34,667 --> 00:47:36,209
though, I'd like to see it
1456
00:47:36,210 --> 00:47:37,751
more as an autobiography.
1457
00:47:37,834 --> 00:47:40,709
You know, it's what
1458
00:47:37,834 --> 00:47:43,584
at any given moment.
1459
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:43,584
I'm involved with
1460
00:47:48,709 --> 00:47:50,292
Leave that open.
1461
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:55,605
I did this
1462
00:47:55,606 --> 00:47:56,709
in a shop window.
1463
00:47:59,834 --> 00:48:02,250
♪ ♪
1464
00:48:05,292 --> 00:48:08,376
This is Hockney,
1465
00:48:05,292 --> 00:48:11,459
film directress from LA.
1466
00:48:08,377 --> 00:48:11,459
and this is a young
1467
00:48:11,542 --> 00:48:13,542
I remember this one time
1468
00:48:13,543 --> 00:48:15,542
we were at his studio
1469
00:48:15,626 --> 00:48:17,084
and he said, "Do you wanna see
1470
00:48:17,085 --> 00:48:18,542
my private stuff?"
1471
00:48:18,626 --> 00:48:20,626
- At that point, all of
- His stuff was very taboo.
1472
00:48:20,667 --> 00:48:22,417
None of this stuff was
1473
00:48:20,667 --> 00:48:24,167
showing it to us.
1474
00:48:22,418 --> 00:48:24,167
out in public when he was
1475
00:48:24,250 --> 00:48:26,125
- It wasn't. It wasn't.
- Yeah.
1476
00:48:26,209 --> 00:48:28,230
Robert lived not too far
1477
00:48:28,231 --> 00:48:30,250
east of my apartment,
1478
00:48:30,334 --> 00:48:32,334
so I just walked there.
1479
00:48:33,709 --> 00:48:34,896
I remember, as I got
1480
00:48:34,897 --> 00:48:36,083
closer and closer,
1481
00:48:36,167 --> 00:48:37,876
that I felt
1482
00:48:37,877 --> 00:48:39,584
increasingly more frightened.
1483
00:48:39,667 --> 00:48:41,501
Edward:
1484
00:48:39,667 --> 00:48:43,334
and I look up
1485
00:48:41,502 --> 00:48:43,334
I was a bit anxious,
1486
00:48:43,417 --> 00:48:46,584
and there's Robert
1487
00:48:43,417 --> 00:48:49,751
smoking a cigarette,
1488
00:48:46,585 --> 00:48:49,751
up on the fire escape,
1489
00:48:49,834 --> 00:48:50,917
and I was like,
1490
00:48:50,918 --> 00:48:52,000
"Okay, here we go."
1491
00:48:52,083 --> 00:48:53,834
(elevator dings)
1492
00:48:55,834 --> 00:48:57,834
A hand-operated elevator.
1493
00:49:00,375 --> 00:49:02,292
Five flights.
1494
00:49:04,542 --> 00:49:08,459
Very low lit. Devil figures.
1495
00:49:10,209 --> 00:49:11,959
Mysterious. It's creepy.
1496
00:49:12,042 --> 00:49:13,501
The first thing
1497
00:49:13,502 --> 00:49:14,959
that struck me about him,
1498
00:49:15,042 --> 00:49:18,001
he was not at all,
1499
00:49:18,002 --> 00:49:20,959
you know, the kind of person
1500
00:49:21,042 --> 00:49:22,897
that one might think
1501
00:49:21,042 --> 00:49:24,751
of photographs.
1502
00:49:22,898 --> 00:49:24,751
might make these kind
1503
00:49:24,834 --> 00:49:26,355
Yeah. Well, this...
1504
00:49:24,834 --> 00:49:27,876
This will pick up?
1505
00:49:26,356 --> 00:49:27,876
Mapplethorpe:
1506
00:49:27,959 --> 00:49:29,542
- Yeah, this will
- Pick up better.
1507
00:49:29,626 --> 00:49:32,250
Okay. Now...
1508
00:49:32,334 --> 00:49:33,417
He said,
1509
00:49:33,418 --> 00:49:34,500
"oh, is that a Sony?"
1510
00:49:34,584 --> 00:49:35,792
And I said,
1511
00:49:34,584 --> 00:49:37,000
and he said,
1512
00:49:35,793 --> 00:49:37,000
"No, it's not,"
1513
00:49:37,083 --> 00:49:38,709
"Oh, Panasonic.
1514
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:40,334
Well, Sony is better."
1515
00:49:40,417 --> 00:49:42,709
And, you know, teased me
1516
00:49:40,417 --> 00:49:45,000
tape recorder.
1517
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:45,000
about having the wrong
1518
00:49:46,584 --> 00:49:48,605
Man:
1519
00:49:46,584 --> 00:49:50,626
Mapplethorpe signed with an X,
1520
00:49:48,606 --> 00:49:50,626
In his early work,
1521
00:49:50,709 --> 00:49:52,480
so there's a kind of
1522
00:49:52,481 --> 00:49:54,250
double entendre here.
1523
00:49:54,334 --> 00:49:57,543
Each portfolio, there's
1524
00:49:54,334 --> 00:50:00,751
mounted on black board
1525
00:49:57,544 --> 00:50:00,751
13 gelatin sliver prints
1526
00:50:00,834 --> 00:50:02,876
and signed in graphite.
1527
00:50:07,334 --> 00:50:09,250
- Mapplethorpe:
- Sex is, for me,
1528
00:50:09,334 --> 00:50:11,134
- Probably the most
- Important thing in life.
1529
00:50:11,209 --> 00:50:13,605
You know, it's the one area
1530
00:50:13,606 --> 00:50:16,000
that offers a bit of magic,
1531
00:50:16,083 --> 00:50:17,188
a bit of something
1532
00:50:17,189 --> 00:50:18,292
we don't know about.
1533
00:50:19,334 --> 00:50:21,834
- Just seeing how
- His little brother reacted,
1534
00:50:21,918 --> 00:50:24,834
He just... he dug it.
1535
00:50:24,918 --> 00:50:28,397
He loved to get
1536
00:50:24,918 --> 00:50:31,876
and a reaction
1537
00:50:28,398 --> 00:50:31,876
a jolt out of people
1538
00:50:31,959 --> 00:50:34,376
because it was power.
1539
00:50:34,377 --> 00:50:36,792
They were powerful.
1540
00:50:36,876 --> 00:50:38,126
Mapplethorpe:
1541
00:50:36,876 --> 00:50:39,375
like I portray it,
1542
00:50:38,127 --> 00:50:39,375
I think sexuality,
1543
00:50:39,459 --> 00:50:40,730
is very much today,
1544
00:50:40,731 --> 00:50:42,000
but people, you know,
1545
00:50:42,083 --> 00:50:44,459
- it would take a few years
- Before people realize that.
1546
00:50:44,542 --> 00:50:45,563
Squiers:
1547
00:50:44,542 --> 00:50:46,584
that you're just existing
1548
00:50:45,564 --> 00:50:46,584
And you don't think
1549
00:50:46,667 --> 00:50:47,896
in a specialized
1550
00:50:47,897 --> 00:50:49,125
kind of subculture?
1551
00:50:49,209 --> 00:50:50,959
New York is specialized.
1552
00:50:51,042 --> 00:50:53,626
But what happens
1553
00:50:51,042 --> 00:50:56,209
of America finally.
1554
00:50:53,627 --> 00:50:56,209
in New York is indicative
1555
00:50:56,292 --> 00:50:58,376
If I was gonna pick an image
1556
00:50:58,377 --> 00:51:00,459
that I thought was humorous,
1557
00:51:00,542 --> 00:51:03,647
I would pick the man
1558
00:51:00,542 --> 00:51:06,751
coming out of his mouth.
1559
00:51:03,648 --> 00:51:06,751
in the rubber suit with a hose
1560
00:51:06,834 --> 00:51:10,000
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
1561
00:51:13,375 --> 00:51:15,001
That's really disgusting.
1562
00:51:15,002 --> 00:51:16,626
(laughing)
1563
00:51:24,250 --> 00:51:25,709
(both laughing)
1564
00:51:25,792 --> 00:51:28,084
I had grown up with abstract
1565
00:51:28,085 --> 00:51:30,375
art, and conceptualism,
1566
00:51:30,459 --> 00:51:33,501
and, you know,
1567
00:51:33,502 --> 00:51:36,542
nude men in rubber suits
1568
00:51:36,626 --> 00:51:38,334
were not part
1569
00:51:38,335 --> 00:51:40,042
of my art education.
1570
00:51:40,125 --> 00:51:43,125
So it was hard to know
1571
00:51:43,126 --> 00:51:46,125
how to talk about them.
1572
00:51:47,751 --> 00:51:49,022
Mapplethorpe:
1573
00:51:47,751 --> 00:51:50,292
amazed that it shocked.
1574
00:51:49,023 --> 00:51:50,292
Yeah, I was always
1575
00:51:50,375 --> 00:51:52,084
I mean, because once
1576
00:51:50,375 --> 00:51:53,792
and I had taken it,
1577
00:51:52,085 --> 00:51:53,792
I had a photograph
1578
00:51:53,876 --> 00:51:55,001
it didn't... it wasn't
1579
00:51:55,002 --> 00:51:56,125
shocking to me anymore.
1580
00:51:56,209 --> 00:51:57,564
I'd been through
1581
00:51:57,565 --> 00:51:58,918
the experience.
1582
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,500
- Edward:
- Just watching me.
1583
00:52:00,584 --> 00:52:02,959
- Even though I was perhaps
- Being tested that day,
1584
00:52:03,042 --> 00:52:05,375
I wasn't going to fail.
1585
00:52:05,459 --> 00:52:07,417
And then I was, like,
1586
00:52:07,418 --> 00:52:09,375
"You know, this is cool.
1587
00:52:09,459 --> 00:52:11,626
This is cool."
1588
00:52:15,709 --> 00:52:17,101
- Mapplethorpe:
- Maybe they're the best
1589
00:52:17,125 --> 00:52:19,000
- Or the most important
- Pictures I've taken.
1590
00:52:19,083 --> 00:52:21,334
When one sees something
1591
00:52:19,083 --> 00:52:23,584
it's rather important.
1592
00:52:21,335 --> 00:52:23,584
you've never seen before,
1593
00:52:23,667 --> 00:52:25,542
- I mean, still, I can
- Show those to people
1594
00:52:25,626 --> 00:52:26,897
And they will have never
1595
00:52:26,898 --> 00:52:28,167
seen that image before.
1596
00:52:28,250 --> 00:52:30,250
So it opens something up,
1597
00:52:30,334 --> 00:52:32,647
and I think
1598
00:52:30,334 --> 00:52:34,959
is opening something up.
1599
00:52:32,648 --> 00:52:34,959
that's what art is about,
1600
00:52:35,042 --> 00:52:37,376
A couple of times, he's like,
1601
00:52:35,042 --> 00:52:39,709
would say about that one?"
1602
00:52:37,377 --> 00:52:39,709
"So what do you think Dad
1603
00:52:39,792 --> 00:52:41,105
There are two
1604
00:52:41,106 --> 00:52:42,417
that particularly,
1605
00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:43,646
you know,
1606
00:52:43,647 --> 00:52:44,792
took my breath away.
1607
00:52:44,876 --> 00:52:46,397
One was the pinky
1608
00:52:46,398 --> 00:52:47,918
inserted into a penis.
1609
00:52:51,083 --> 00:52:53,209
That was like, "Oh, my God."
1610
00:52:53,292 --> 00:52:54,438
And the other one
1611
00:52:54,439 --> 00:52:55,584
was the fist.
1612
00:53:00,167 --> 00:53:03,292
Okay, Robert. (chuckling)
1613
00:53:03,375 --> 00:53:05,188
I guess you've definitely
1614
00:53:05,189 --> 00:53:07,000
found your voice.
1615
00:53:08,542 --> 00:53:09,813
Mapplethorpe:
1616
00:53:08,542 --> 00:53:11,083
fist fucking photograph,
1617
00:53:09,814 --> 00:53:11,083
I wanted to do a great
1618
00:53:11,167 --> 00:53:13,000
so I did that picture,
1619
00:53:13,083 --> 00:53:14,876
- and then he said,
- "Now, it's your turn."
1620
00:53:14,959 --> 00:53:16,230
So he sort of pinned me
1621
00:53:14,959 --> 00:53:17,500
and says, "Listen..."
1622
00:53:16,231 --> 00:53:17,500
against the wall
1623
00:53:22,709 --> 00:53:24,626
- Anyway, once I had
- The picture taken,
1624
00:53:24,709 --> 00:53:26,518
- I thought it was
- A really good picture of me.
1625
00:53:26,542 --> 00:53:27,959
Squiers:
1626
00:53:26,542 --> 00:53:29,375
that that image was horrible.
1627
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,375
But most people would say
1628
00:53:29,459 --> 00:53:31,375
- Image of yourself.
- But once they...
1629
00:53:31,459 --> 00:53:33,584
(chuckling)
1630
00:53:33,667 --> 00:53:34,834
It's a good one.
1631
00:53:34,918 --> 00:53:36,626
(laughing)
1632
00:53:36,709 --> 00:53:38,876
Robert, he said "I can't have
1633
00:53:36,709 --> 00:53:41,042
Mom and Dad something."
1634
00:53:38,877 --> 00:53:41,042
you go home without giving
1635
00:53:41,125 --> 00:53:43,459
So he just went...
1636
00:53:43,542 --> 00:53:44,688
and signed it,
1637
00:53:44,689 --> 00:53:45,834
"For Mom and Dad."
1638
00:53:45,918 --> 00:53:48,084
It was certainly better than
1639
00:53:45,918 --> 00:53:50,250
up on the wall. Sorry.
1640
00:53:48,085 --> 00:53:50,250
anything else they he had
1641
00:53:50,334 --> 00:53:51,751
(chuckling)
1642
00:53:51,834 --> 00:53:53,230
It was
1643
00:53:53,231 --> 00:53:54,626
an "Easter Lilies" print.
1644
00:53:54,709 --> 00:53:55,917
Man:
1645
00:53:54,709 --> 00:53:57,125
of your son?
1646
00:53:55,918 --> 00:53:57,125
Are you proud
1647
00:53:57,209 --> 00:53:58,688
Harry:
1648
00:53:57,209 --> 00:54:00,167
he did, yes.
1649
00:53:58,689 --> 00:54:00,167
For the artwork
1650
00:54:00,250 --> 00:54:02,230
But for some of
1651
00:54:02,231 --> 00:54:04,209
the photographs that he took,
1652
00:54:04,292 --> 00:54:05,813
I just could not accept
1653
00:54:05,814 --> 00:54:07,334
them either.
1654
00:54:07,417 --> 00:54:08,855
He's done
1655
00:54:08,856 --> 00:54:10,292
a beautiful job on flowers.
1656
00:54:10,375 --> 00:54:11,813
There was tension.
1657
00:54:11,814 --> 00:54:13,250
There was no doubt about it.
1658
00:54:13,334 --> 00:54:14,834
One time in particular
1659
00:54:14,835 --> 00:54:16,334
being very, very uncomfortable
1660
00:54:16,417 --> 00:54:17,668
because my father
1661
00:54:17,669 --> 00:54:18,918
wouldn't look at Robert.
1662
00:54:21,083 --> 00:54:22,209
My father was
1663
00:54:22,210 --> 00:54:23,334
an electrical engineer.
1664
00:54:23,417 --> 00:54:24,709
He wore one of
1665
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:26,000
those penholders.
1666
00:54:26,083 --> 00:54:27,459
- Robert would make
- His attempts.
1667
00:54:27,542 --> 00:54:29,500
- He came with
- A Polaroid camera one time
1668
00:54:29,584 --> 00:54:32,022
And gave the camera
1669
00:54:29,584 --> 00:54:34,459
He did a Polaroid of Robert.
1670
00:54:32,023 --> 00:54:34,459
to my father to...
1671
00:54:35,834 --> 00:54:37,147
After he left,
1672
00:54:37,148 --> 00:54:38,459
my father making mention
1673
00:54:38,542 --> 00:54:40,001
of how Robert
1674
00:54:40,002 --> 00:54:41,459
shook people's hands.
1675
00:54:41,542 --> 00:54:44,542
It wasn't a manly handshake.
1676
00:54:44,626 --> 00:54:46,918
It was a soft-set handshake.
1677
00:54:48,876 --> 00:54:50,626
- Harry:
- Let me say this,
1678
00:54:50,709 --> 00:54:52,938
That I thought he was,
1679
00:54:52,939 --> 00:54:55,167
for quite a length of time,
1680
00:54:55,250 --> 00:54:56,730
but I would never even
1681
00:54:56,731 --> 00:54:58,209
mention it to my wife.
1682
00:54:58,292 --> 00:54:59,563
Because as far as
1683
00:54:59,564 --> 00:55:00,834
my wife is concerned,
1684
00:55:00,918 --> 00:55:02,709
he was her favorite.
1685
00:55:02,792 --> 00:55:04,146
Nancy:
1686
00:55:02,792 --> 00:55:05,500
they were married.
1687
00:55:04,147 --> 00:55:05,500
He and Patti told my parents
1688
00:55:05,584 --> 00:55:06,897
I remember sending
1689
00:55:06,898 --> 00:55:08,209
her birthday cards.
1690
00:55:08,292 --> 00:55:10,646
Patti, whatever,
1691
00:55:10,647 --> 00:55:13,000
Mrs. Robert Mapplethorpe.
1692
00:55:13,083 --> 00:55:14,667
You know?
1693
00:55:14,751 --> 00:55:16,001
I think my father always
1694
00:55:16,002 --> 00:55:17,250
had suspicions though.
1695
00:55:17,334 --> 00:55:19,667
He said, "There's no pictures,
1696
00:55:17,334 --> 00:55:22,000
there's no certificate."
1697
00:55:19,668 --> 00:55:22,000
there's no, you know,
1698
00:55:22,083 --> 00:55:23,229
Man:
1699
00:55:22,083 --> 00:55:24,375
the fact that he was gay?
1700
00:55:23,230 --> 00:55:24,375
Did you resent
1701
00:55:24,459 --> 00:55:26,167
- Harry:
- I did, yes.
1702
00:55:26,250 --> 00:55:28,000
I guess I did, yeah.
1703
00:55:28,083 --> 00:55:29,355
He never spoke
1704
00:55:29,356 --> 00:55:30,626
to me about it.
1705
00:55:32,167 --> 00:55:33,959
Because I guess he knew
1706
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:35,751
I would never accept it.
1707
00:55:35,834 --> 00:55:37,417
Admitting that he was gay
1708
00:55:37,418 --> 00:55:39,000
or telling me that he's gay,
1709
00:55:39,083 --> 00:55:40,750
that wouldn't have
1710
00:55:40,751 --> 00:55:42,417
helped matters at all.
1711
00:55:42,500 --> 00:55:44,230
Because I probably would've
1712
00:55:44,231 --> 00:55:45,959
had more resentment
1713
00:55:46,042 --> 00:55:47,813
to that fact
1714
00:55:47,814 --> 00:55:49,584
if he had told me.
1715
00:55:52,667 --> 00:55:53,980
So he was really
1716
00:55:53,981 --> 00:55:55,292
not part of the family,
1717
00:55:55,375 --> 00:55:58,292
you know, and it's sad.
1718
00:55:58,375 --> 00:56:00,125
It's sad. I so wish,
1719
00:56:00,209 --> 00:56:02,001
I could talk to him now
1720
00:56:02,002 --> 00:56:03,792
about it all, you know?
1721
00:56:03,876 --> 00:56:06,043
But Robert did... Robert always
1722
00:56:06,044 --> 00:56:08,209
wanted to be famous
1723
00:56:08,292 --> 00:56:10,375
and he became famous.
1724
00:56:10,459 --> 00:56:12,459
(Ziff reading)
1725
00:56:10,459 --> 00:56:14,459
a gallery in New York.
1726
00:56:12,460 --> 00:56:14,459
"Dear Lloyd, I finally have
1727
00:56:14,542 --> 00:56:15,876
"It's run by a woman
1728
00:56:15,877 --> 00:56:17,209
named Holly Solomon,
1729
00:56:17,292 --> 00:56:19,250
- "You probably have
- Never heard of it,
1730
00:56:19,334 --> 00:56:21,292
But it doesn't seem to be
1731
00:56:19,334 --> 00:56:23,250
for the moment."
1732
00:56:21,293 --> 00:56:23,250
a bad place to be
1733
00:56:24,375 --> 00:56:26,459
I said,
1734
00:56:26,460 --> 00:56:28,542
"Before I show your work,
1735
00:56:28,626 --> 00:56:29,751
I would like you to do
1736
00:56:29,752 --> 00:56:30,876
my portrait."
1737
00:56:30,959 --> 00:56:33,959
And when he took my portrait,
1738
00:56:34,042 --> 00:56:35,813
I was convinced
1739
00:56:35,814 --> 00:56:37,584
that he was an artist,
1740
00:56:37,667 --> 00:56:40,501
convinced that he could
1741
00:56:37,667 --> 00:56:43,334
extremely well.
1742
00:56:40,502 --> 00:56:43,334
manipulate people
1743
00:56:43,417 --> 00:56:45,751
And I use the word manipulate.
1744
00:56:45,834 --> 00:56:47,376
And so I said
1745
00:56:47,377 --> 00:56:48,918
"Okay, let's do a show."
1746
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,980
"Sam Wagstaff was a great
1747
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,959
Holly Solomon said,
1748
00:56:50,981 --> 00:56:52,959
photography collector."
1749
00:56:53,042 --> 00:56:54,313
"I wouldn't have touched
1750
00:56:54,314 --> 00:56:55,584
Robert without Sam.
1751
00:56:55,667 --> 00:56:58,542
- "And there were others like me
- Who felt the same way."
1752
00:57:03,375 --> 00:57:05,876
- Lebowitz:
- He had two shows in one day.
1753
00:57:05,959 --> 00:57:08,083
One was the S&M pictures,
1754
00:57:08,167 --> 00:57:10,417
and then one where
1755
00:57:08,167 --> 00:57:12,667
the uptown trade.
1756
00:57:10,418 --> 00:57:12,667
the pictures, for, you know,
1757
00:57:12,751 --> 00:57:14,543
And then there was a dinner
1758
00:57:12,751 --> 00:57:16,334
dinner at One Fifth Avenue.
1759
00:57:14,544 --> 00:57:16,334
that Sam gave, a black-tie
1760
00:57:16,417 --> 00:57:18,001
It was very carefully
1761
00:57:16,417 --> 00:57:19,584
an ad campaign,
1762
00:57:18,002 --> 00:57:19,584
thought out. It was like
1763
00:57:19,667 --> 00:57:21,042
and it worked.
1764
00:57:21,125 --> 00:57:22,976
- Mapplethorpe:
- Sometimes, I think it's better
1765
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,334
For the public to be able
1766
00:57:25,335 --> 00:57:27,667
to separate things
1767
00:57:27,751 --> 00:57:29,876
because when you mix them
1768
00:57:27,751 --> 00:57:32,000
overpowers it,
1769
00:57:29,877 --> 00:57:32,000
all up, the sex thing
1770
00:57:32,083 --> 00:57:34,334
and what happens is they just
1771
00:57:32,083 --> 00:57:36,584
and that becomes the show.
1772
00:57:34,335 --> 00:57:36,584
pick the sex pictures out
1773
00:57:36,667 --> 00:57:38,584
- Woman: - What will you say
- To those people
1774
00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:40,938
Who accuse you
1775
00:57:40,939 --> 00:57:43,209
of having a dirty mind?
1776
00:57:43,292 --> 00:57:44,605
Well, I don't know what...
1777
00:57:43,292 --> 00:57:45,918
means exactly.
1778
00:57:44,606 --> 00:57:45,918
I don't know what that
1779
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,334
I mean, I think everybody is,
1780
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,667
involved in sexuality.
1781
00:57:48,335 --> 00:57:50,667
in one way or another,
1782
00:57:50,751 --> 00:57:52,251
So, if you believe
1783
00:57:52,252 --> 00:57:53,751
that sex is dirty,
1784
00:57:53,834 --> 00:57:55,688
everybody has
1785
00:57:55,689 --> 00:57:57,542
a dirty mind, I suppose.
1786
00:57:57,626 --> 00:57:59,376
But I never consider
1787
00:57:59,377 --> 00:58:01,125
sex being dirty.
1788
00:58:01,209 --> 00:58:02,938
Squiers:
1789
00:58:01,209 --> 00:58:04,667
particularly riveted me,
1790
00:58:02,939 --> 00:58:04,667
The image that
1791
00:58:04,751 --> 00:58:06,438
was Mark Stevens
1792
00:58:06,439 --> 00:58:08,125
(Mr. 10 1/2),
1793
00:58:08,209 --> 00:58:09,751
with his penis and balls
1794
00:58:09,752 --> 00:58:11,292
laid out on the pedestal
1795
00:58:11,375 --> 00:58:14,501
as if they were a work of art,
1796
00:58:14,502 --> 00:58:17,626
which, in his case, they were.
1797
00:58:17,709 --> 00:58:18,876
So...
1798
00:58:18,959 --> 00:58:20,667
- Artistic photography
- Is controlled
1799
00:58:20,751 --> 00:58:23,168
By very civilized people
1800
00:58:23,169 --> 00:58:25,584
in New York City.
1801
00:58:25,667 --> 00:58:29,021
And in essence, he was
1802
00:58:29,022 --> 00:58:32,375
glamorizing the penis,
1803
00:58:32,459 --> 00:58:35,147
which is a very
1804
00:58:35,148 --> 00:58:37,834
uncivilized thing to do.
1805
00:58:37,918 --> 00:58:41,500
We sold one, only.
1806
00:58:41,584 --> 00:58:43,126
So, I bought
1807
00:58:43,127 --> 00:58:44,667
the whole show from Robert
1808
00:58:44,751 --> 00:58:46,230
figuring "Okay,
1809
00:58:46,231 --> 00:58:47,709
stuck is stuck."
1810
00:58:47,792 --> 00:58:49,876
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
1811
00:58:57,959 --> 00:58:59,063
Solomon:
1812
00:58:57,959 --> 00:59:00,167
"I want to go uptown,"
1813
00:58:59,064 --> 00:59:00,167
He said,
1814
00:59:00,250 --> 00:59:03,042
and he brought me a present.
1815
00:59:03,125 --> 00:59:06,584
The present was
1816
00:59:03,125 --> 00:59:10,042
the whip up his... tush.
1817
00:59:06,585 --> 00:59:10,042
a self-portrait with
1818
00:59:10,125 --> 00:59:12,209
- And my husband,
- He was quite insulted,
1819
00:59:12,292 --> 00:59:13,459
And he said, "I'm gonna
1820
00:59:12,292 --> 00:59:14,626
"No, you're not.
1821
00:59:13,460 --> 00:59:14,626
rip it up," and I said,
1822
00:59:14,709 --> 00:59:16,501
Someday, I'm gonna
1823
00:59:14,709 --> 00:59:18,292
for that photograph."
1824
00:59:16,502 --> 00:59:18,292
get handsomely paid
1825
00:59:18,375 --> 00:59:20,375
- Is that making
- A statement about myself?
1826
00:59:20,459 --> 00:59:21,980
You know, it's one aspect
1827
00:59:21,981 --> 00:59:23,500
of everybody, I suppose,
1828
00:59:23,584 --> 00:59:25,918
- you know,
- Sort of the demon within.
1829
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,084
There's a sense of humor
1830
00:59:28,085 --> 00:59:30,167
in what I'm doing,
1831
00:59:30,250 --> 00:59:31,876
- which I hope
- People pick up on,
1832
00:59:31,959 --> 00:59:33,647
And sometimes they do,
1833
00:59:31,959 --> 00:59:35,334
when people see that.
1834
00:59:33,648 --> 00:59:35,334
and I'm always pleased
1835
00:59:35,417 --> 00:59:37,959
- I don't think he could've
- Produced the work he produced
1836
00:59:38,042 --> 00:59:39,876
- If he hadn't been
- Raised Catholic.
1837
00:59:39,959 --> 00:59:42,063
Mapplethorpe:
1838
00:59:39,959 --> 00:59:44,167
things is very Catholic,
1839
00:59:42,064 --> 00:59:44,167
I think the way I arrange
1840
00:59:44,250 --> 00:59:45,584
even though I was
1841
00:59:45,585 --> 00:59:46,918
never a religious person.
1842
00:59:47,042 --> 00:59:49,126
I think it's rather important
1843
00:59:49,127 --> 00:59:51,209
as an influence on my life.
1844
00:59:51,292 --> 00:59:53,646
The imagery was what was
1845
00:59:53,647 --> 00:59:56,000
important to him,
1846
00:59:56,083 --> 00:59:58,042
not the dogma.
1847
00:59:58,125 --> 01:00:00,459
There's something
1848
00:59:58,125 --> 01:00:02,792
about sadomasochism.
1849
01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:02,792
very ritualistic
1850
01:00:02,876 --> 01:00:04,334
It's, kind of, the Black Mass
1851
01:00:04,335 --> 01:00:05,792
basically, right?
1852
01:00:07,959 --> 01:00:10,272
Fritscher:
1853
01:00:07,959 --> 01:00:12,584
on the Catholic martyrology.
1854
01:00:10,273 --> 01:00:12,584
His S&M work is based
1855
01:00:17,334 --> 01:00:18,709
As grade-school children,
1856
01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:20,083
we hear tales
1857
01:00:20,167 --> 01:00:23,022
of St. Agatha tied to a stake
1858
01:00:20,167 --> 01:00:25,876
with a red hot pincher.
1859
01:00:23,023 --> 01:00:25,876
and her tits torn off
1860
01:00:25,959 --> 01:00:27,480
If you're a little kid
1861
01:00:25,959 --> 01:00:29,000
in a certain way,
1862
01:00:27,481 --> 01:00:29,000
and hear that, and twisted
1863
01:00:29,083 --> 01:00:30,480
all of a sudden,
1864
01:00:29,083 --> 01:00:31,876
and not horrified.
1865
01:00:30,481 --> 01:00:31,876
you're excited
1866
01:00:31,959 --> 01:00:34,876
(clears throat)
1867
01:00:34,959 --> 01:00:37,563
I'm really not, you know,
1868
01:00:37,564 --> 01:00:40,167
into sadomasochism, you know?
1869
01:00:40,250 --> 01:00:41,771
I don't encourage it
1870
01:00:41,772 --> 01:00:43,292
with other people either.
1871
01:00:43,375 --> 01:00:46,396
But I really felt as though
1872
01:00:46,397 --> 01:00:49,417
there was a struggle in Robert
1873
01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:52,000
between crucifixes
1874
01:00:52,001 --> 01:00:54,500
and devil images.
1875
01:00:54,584 --> 01:00:57,355
Good, evil, there is
1876
01:00:57,356 --> 01:01:00,125
a great conflict there.
1877
01:01:00,209 --> 01:01:01,605
He liked the fact
1878
01:01:00,209 --> 01:01:03,000
the seminary for many years
1879
01:01:01,606 --> 01:01:03,000
that I had been in
1880
01:01:03,083 --> 01:01:05,167
and was an ordained exorcist
1881
01:01:05,168 --> 01:01:07,250
in the Catholic Church.
1882
01:01:07,334 --> 01:01:09,917
And because I was trained
1883
01:01:07,334 --> 01:01:12,500
confessional to me.
1884
01:01:09,918 --> 01:01:12,500
to be a priest, he was very
1885
01:01:12,584 --> 01:01:15,083
"Dear Jack, it's midnight.
1886
01:01:15,167 --> 01:01:17,271
"MDA ingested, only the first
1887
01:01:17,272 --> 01:01:19,375
signs now visible.
1888
01:01:19,459 --> 01:01:21,355
"I've been out nearly
1889
01:01:19,459 --> 01:01:23,250
no different.
1890
01:01:21,356 --> 01:01:23,250
every night. Tonight is
1891
01:01:23,334 --> 01:01:26,125
"The Mine Shaft is beckoning.
1892
01:01:26,209 --> 01:01:28,272
"Come, go, come, go,
1893
01:01:28,273 --> 01:01:30,334
come with me.
1894
01:01:30,417 --> 01:01:31,605
"Oh, I almost
1895
01:01:31,606 --> 01:01:32,792
forgot to tell you,
1896
01:01:32,876 --> 01:01:34,709
"I let some creep
1897
01:01:34,710 --> 01:01:36,542
stick his hand up my ass.
1898
01:01:36,626 --> 01:01:39,167
"I've been fisted, even came.
1899
01:01:39,250 --> 01:01:40,625
"But I think I prefer
1900
01:01:40,626 --> 01:01:42,000
being the giver.
1901
01:01:42,083 --> 01:01:45,063
"In fact, I can't help but
1902
01:01:42,083 --> 01:01:48,042
to the feeding process.
1903
01:01:45,064 --> 01:01:48,042
give preferential treatment
1904
01:01:48,125 --> 01:01:50,188
"I want to see
1905
01:01:50,189 --> 01:01:52,250
the devil in us all.
1906
01:01:52,334 --> 01:01:54,584
"That's my real turn-on.
1907
01:01:54,667 --> 01:01:56,959
Love, Robert."
1908
01:01:58,542 --> 01:02:00,459
I have to say that
1909
01:02:00,460 --> 01:02:02,375
because nobody will say it.
1910
01:02:04,584 --> 01:02:06,355
I have to say it
1911
01:02:06,356 --> 01:02:08,125
and it's not to put him down,
1912
01:02:08,209 --> 01:02:10,375
but it's simply to reveal.
1913
01:02:10,459 --> 01:02:11,751
Robert...
1914
01:02:11,752 --> 01:02:13,042
(car engine rumbling)
1915
01:02:14,292 --> 01:02:15,522
Satan to him was not
1916
01:02:15,523 --> 01:02:16,751
this evil monster.
1917
01:02:16,834 --> 01:02:18,709
Satan was, like,
1918
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:20,584
a convivial playmate,
1919
01:02:20,667 --> 01:02:22,105
having a jolly good time
1920
01:02:22,106 --> 01:02:23,542
seducing the maidens.
1921
01:02:23,626 --> 01:02:24,918
To me, it was
1922
01:02:24,919 --> 01:02:26,209
a bridge too far.
1923
01:02:26,292 --> 01:02:28,105
(rumbling continues)
1924
01:02:28,106 --> 01:02:29,918
Go away.
1925
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:31,521
Can we close the doors?
1926
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,042
cold in here.
1927
01:02:31,522 --> 01:02:33,042
I'm getting awfully
1928
01:02:33,125 --> 01:02:34,959
- Yeah.
- There's a draft... Marc?
1929
01:02:35,042 --> 01:02:37,021
Man:
1930
01:02:37,022 --> 01:02:39,000
San Francisco, 1978.
1931
01:02:39,083 --> 01:02:40,375
Robert was having a show,
1932
01:02:40,376 --> 01:02:41,667
it was a sex show.
1933
01:02:41,751 --> 01:02:44,438
It was unusual. I mean,
1934
01:02:41,751 --> 01:02:47,125
in galleries.
1935
01:02:44,439 --> 01:02:47,125
you didn't see sex as art
1936
01:02:47,209 --> 01:02:48,889
- And then someone said,
- "Well, you know,
1937
01:02:48,918 --> 01:02:50,792
- "he did the album cover
- For 'Horses.'"
1938
01:02:50,876 --> 01:02:52,501
And it was the only
1939
01:02:52,502 --> 01:02:54,125
black and white album cover.
1940
01:02:54,209 --> 01:02:56,125
- And to see
- An androgynous-looking woman
1941
01:02:56,209 --> 01:02:57,751
- With a jacket
- Over her shoulder,
1942
01:02:57,834 --> 01:02:58,897
I just love, love,
1943
01:02:58,898 --> 01:02:59,959
love that photograph.
1944
01:03:00,042 --> 01:03:02,292
- Robert was holding court
- And he said,
1945
01:03:02,375 --> 01:03:04,959
- "Well, let's have
- Dinner the following night,"
1946
01:03:05,042 --> 01:03:08,375
And that's how I met him.
1947
01:03:08,459 --> 01:03:10,043
And then I guess
1948
01:03:08,459 --> 01:03:11,626
the following night, right?
1949
01:03:10,044 --> 01:03:11,626
you wanna know what happened
1950
01:03:13,459 --> 01:03:14,959
He reminded me of the satyr.
1951
01:03:15,042 --> 01:03:16,292
He really looked like
1952
01:03:16,293 --> 01:03:17,542
a mythological creature,
1953
01:03:17,626 --> 01:03:19,626
like half goat, half man.
1954
01:03:19,709 --> 01:03:22,083
To be in Robert's world,
1955
01:03:22,167 --> 01:03:25,355
you either had to be rich,
1956
01:03:25,356 --> 01:03:28,542
famous, or sex.
1957
01:03:28,626 --> 01:03:29,980
I wasn't rich,
1958
01:03:29,981 --> 01:03:31,334
I wasn't famous,
1959
01:03:31,417 --> 01:03:32,959
so, it left that.
1960
01:03:34,375 --> 01:03:36,209
- As he certainly
- Wasn't monogamous,
1961
01:03:36,292 --> 01:03:37,813
He could have multiple
1962
01:03:37,814 --> 01:03:39,334
relationships on a weekend.
1963
01:03:39,417 --> 01:03:41,792
But with me, there was no S&M.
1964
01:03:41,876 --> 01:03:43,751
It was about being close
1965
01:03:43,834 --> 01:03:45,667
and spooning and, you know,
1966
01:03:45,751 --> 01:03:47,501
just the normal, the normal
1967
01:03:47,502 --> 01:03:49,250
kind of intimate stuff
1968
01:03:49,334 --> 01:03:51,751
- that he didn't have
- From picking up strangers.
1969
01:03:51,834 --> 01:03:53,126
He said,
1970
01:03:53,127 --> 01:03:54,417
"I want to do a nude."
1971
01:03:54,500 --> 01:03:55,855
So I said, "Why don't
1972
01:03:54,500 --> 01:03:57,209
you know, this..."
1973
01:03:55,856 --> 01:03:57,209
we do something, like,
1974
01:03:57,292 --> 01:03:59,417
- those pictures of the hunt,
- You know,
1975
01:03:59,500 --> 01:04:00,730
Where you have,
1976
01:03:59,500 --> 01:04:01,959
with the dead rabbit
1977
01:04:00,731 --> 01:04:01,959
like, the harvest
1978
01:04:02,042 --> 01:04:03,810
- and the fruit and everything
- All and about.
1979
01:04:03,834 --> 01:04:05,792
- So, I thought it was gonna be
- More like that,
1980
01:04:05,876 --> 01:04:07,709
And then it turned up
1981
01:04:07,710 --> 01:04:09,542
with... just this dead rabbit.
1982
01:04:09,626 --> 01:04:11,918
And I said, "What am I gonna
1983
01:04:09,626 --> 01:04:14,209
stole or something."
1984
01:04:11,919 --> 01:04:14,209
do with this? Like a mink
1985
01:04:14,292 --> 01:04:16,167
- I'm surprised you even
- Know that picture,
1986
01:04:16,250 --> 01:04:18,813
Because you'll never see
1987
01:04:16,250 --> 01:04:21,375
by Mapplethorpe.
1988
01:04:18,814 --> 01:04:21,375
a picture of me in any book
1989
01:04:21,459 --> 01:04:23,167
You really won't.
1990
01:04:23,250 --> 01:04:24,605
The fact that I started
1991
01:04:24,606 --> 01:04:25,959
getting a reputation
1992
01:04:26,042 --> 01:04:28,688
aside from just being
1993
01:04:26,042 --> 01:04:31,334
from San Francisco,
1994
01:04:28,689 --> 01:04:31,334
"Robert's cute with,"
1995
01:04:31,417 --> 01:04:32,855
how dare I become
1996
01:04:31,417 --> 01:04:34,292
well known?
1997
01:04:32,856 --> 01:04:34,292
a photographer that was
1998
01:04:34,375 --> 01:04:36,709
This infuriated him.
1999
01:04:36,792 --> 01:04:38,292
He couldn't deal with that.
2000
01:04:38,375 --> 01:04:39,917
Fritscher:
2001
01:04:38,375 --> 01:04:41,459
here for much too long,
2002
01:04:39,918 --> 01:04:41,459
"I've had a houseguest
2003
01:04:41,542 --> 01:04:43,021
"a very cute boy
2004
01:04:43,022 --> 01:04:44,500
that I met in San Francisco.
2005
01:04:44,584 --> 01:04:46,522
"He's sweet, intelligent,
2006
01:04:46,523 --> 01:04:48,459
has a nice cock,
2007
01:04:48,542 --> 01:04:50,375
"but that ain't enough.
2008
01:04:50,459 --> 01:04:52,626
I wish he'd find an apartment
2009
01:04:52,627 --> 01:04:54,792
as he's cramping my style."
2010
01:04:54,876 --> 01:04:56,792
That was probably me.
2011
01:04:56,876 --> 01:04:58,676
- I mean... but I don't...
- Never heard that.
2012
01:04:58,751 --> 01:05:00,251
I mean, I don't know who else
2013
01:05:00,252 --> 01:05:01,751
he met in San Francisco.
2014
01:05:01,834 --> 01:05:03,688
That was... that's the first
2015
01:05:03,689 --> 01:05:05,542
time I'm hearing that.
2016
01:05:05,626 --> 01:05:07,584
Hmm.
2017
01:05:07,667 --> 01:05:09,959
Well, it finally isn't
2018
01:05:07,667 --> 01:05:12,250
what he wanted.
2019
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,250
enough, is it? I mean,
2020
01:05:12,334 --> 01:05:14,125
It's never enough.
2021
01:05:14,209 --> 01:05:15,938
Everything was a means
2022
01:05:15,939 --> 01:05:17,667
to an end to his career.
2023
01:05:17,751 --> 01:05:19,334
Everything.
2024
01:05:25,918 --> 01:05:27,897
Oh, my God. You guys
2025
01:05:27,898 --> 01:05:29,876
are old school. I love that.
2026
01:05:31,250 --> 01:05:32,894
- Woman: - The Bond Street loft
- Never changed.
2027
01:05:32,918 --> 01:05:34,001
In the front, it was
2028
01:05:34,002 --> 01:05:35,083
sort of no man's land,
2029
01:05:35,167 --> 01:05:37,375
- and that was where
- He used to photograph a lot.
2030
01:05:37,459 --> 01:05:38,959
Then you move back and it's
2031
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:40,459
this little sitting area
2032
01:05:40,542 --> 01:05:41,667
which... where he would
2033
01:05:41,668 --> 01:05:42,792
always hold court,
2034
01:05:42,876 --> 01:05:44,626
- but across from that
- Was the bedroom.
2035
01:05:44,709 --> 01:05:46,417
- Painted black.
- Black.
2036
01:05:46,500 --> 01:05:47,709
Hot gloss.
2037
01:05:47,792 --> 01:05:49,126
With the handcuff holds
2038
01:05:49,127 --> 01:05:50,459
above the bed.
2039
01:05:50,542 --> 01:05:51,626
I never went in there.
2040
01:05:51,627 --> 01:05:52,709
Oh, I did.
2041
01:05:52,792 --> 01:05:54,375
(laughing)
2042
01:05:54,459 --> 01:05:55,917
First thing he said to me is,
2043
01:05:54,459 --> 01:05:57,375
where the darkroom is."
2044
01:05:55,918 --> 01:05:57,375
"All you have to know is
2045
01:05:57,459 --> 01:05:59,043
You know? Okay, dude,
2046
01:05:59,044 --> 01:06:00,626
whatever, you know.
2047
01:06:00,709 --> 01:06:02,918
Do your thing, I'll do mine.
2048
01:06:03,042 --> 01:06:05,876
- And I remember the first image
- I printed,
2049
01:06:05,959 --> 01:06:07,667
Which was just a nasty,
2050
01:06:07,668 --> 01:06:09,375
dirty picture.
2051
01:06:09,459 --> 01:06:11,376
It's a guy laying on his back,
2052
01:06:11,377 --> 01:06:13,292
pulling on his nipples.
2053
01:06:13,375 --> 01:06:16,209
- It's not a well-known picture,
- But it's a classic.
2054
01:06:16,292 --> 01:06:18,167
(laughing)
2055
01:06:18,250 --> 01:06:19,727
- And that was where
- We went to work every day.
2056
01:06:19,751 --> 01:06:20,793
That's where we went.
2057
01:06:19,751 --> 01:06:21,834
"Off to work, here we go."
2058
01:06:20,794 --> 01:06:21,834
You know,
2059
01:06:21,918 --> 01:06:23,480
Little waspy blondes
2060
01:06:23,481 --> 01:06:25,042
going to the den iniquity.
2061
01:06:25,125 --> 01:06:27,042
- Going to
- The fist-fucking file.
2062
01:06:27,125 --> 01:06:28,855
Wasn't it funny how soon
2063
01:06:28,856 --> 01:06:30,584
we became anesthetized
2064
01:06:30,667 --> 01:06:32,584
- to all the sex pictures?
- To the word penis?
2065
01:06:32,667 --> 01:06:34,959
- Yeah, you really...
- 'Cause it was just daily.
2066
01:06:36,375 --> 01:06:37,417
Baril:
2067
01:06:36,375 --> 01:06:38,459
be film in the morning
2068
01:06:37,418 --> 01:06:38,459
There would always
2069
01:06:38,542 --> 01:06:39,876
from the night before,
2070
01:06:39,959 --> 01:06:41,293
so the first thing I'd do
2071
01:06:41,294 --> 01:06:42,626
is process film.
2072
01:06:42,709 --> 01:06:45,042
He'd come in in his robe,
2073
01:06:45,125 --> 01:06:46,751
"How are the films, Tom?"
2074
01:06:46,834 --> 01:06:48,980
When he saw the image
2075
01:06:48,981 --> 01:06:51,125
for the very first time,
2076
01:06:51,209 --> 01:06:52,459
he'd tease me,
2077
01:06:51,209 --> 01:06:53,709
of that cock, Tom?"
2078
01:06:52,460 --> 01:06:53,709
"What do you think
2079
01:06:53,792 --> 01:06:56,334
- I'm like, - "Get the fuck out of here."
- You know?
2080
01:06:56,417 --> 01:06:57,959
I was just out of school,
2081
01:06:57,960 --> 01:06:59,500
looking for work,
2082
01:06:59,584 --> 01:07:02,292
and Robert was, like,
2083
01:06:59,584 --> 01:07:05,000
I really feel about this,
2084
01:07:02,293 --> 01:07:05,000
"I don't know how
2085
01:07:05,083 --> 01:07:06,646
"but I am looking
2086
01:07:06,647 --> 01:07:08,209
for an assistant."
2087
01:07:08,292 --> 01:07:10,667
And I started the next day.
2088
01:07:10,751 --> 01:07:12,397
Baril:
2089
01:07:10,751 --> 01:07:14,042
a real photo background,
2090
01:07:12,398 --> 01:07:14,042
Because he didn't have
2091
01:07:14,125 --> 01:07:15,667
he was always insecure
2092
01:07:14,125 --> 01:07:17,209
I get the picture?"
2093
01:07:15,668 --> 01:07:17,209
about "Technically did
2094
01:07:17,292 --> 01:07:19,059
- You know, "Did it come out?
- Did it come out?"
2095
01:07:19,083 --> 01:07:20,709
If it had light on it,
2096
01:07:19,083 --> 01:07:22,334
he was happy,
2097
01:07:20,710 --> 01:07:22,334
and he could get an exposure,
2098
01:07:22,417 --> 01:07:24,542
'cause, you know,
2099
01:07:22,417 --> 01:07:26,667
in the middle of the night.
2100
01:07:24,543 --> 01:07:26,667
they were all fucked up
2101
01:07:26,751 --> 01:07:28,522
Mapplethorpe:
2102
01:07:26,751 --> 01:07:30,292
I never studied photography.
2103
01:07:28,523 --> 01:07:30,292
I'm not a technician.
2104
01:07:30,375 --> 01:07:31,417
I don't particularly
2105
01:07:31,418 --> 01:07:32,459
care to know it.
2106
01:07:32,542 --> 01:07:34,292
I know what a fine print is.
2107
01:07:34,375 --> 01:07:36,688
I would probably have less
2108
01:07:34,375 --> 01:07:39,000
of photographs
2109
01:07:36,689 --> 01:07:39,000
than half the number
2110
01:07:39,083 --> 01:07:40,604
if I did my own
2111
01:07:40,605 --> 01:07:42,125
developing and printing.
2112
01:07:42,209 --> 01:07:43,564
But he always had coke.
2113
01:07:42,209 --> 01:07:44,918
he gave coke to
2114
01:07:43,565 --> 01:07:44,918
I was the only guy
2115
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:46,876
- 'cause he wanted
- Me to keep going.
2116
01:07:46,959 --> 01:07:48,209
(laughs)
2117
01:07:48,292 --> 01:07:49,522
He wasn't generous,
2118
01:07:49,523 --> 01:07:50,751
but, you know,
2119
01:07:50,834 --> 01:07:52,542
"If I gave Tom a little coke,
2120
01:07:52,543 --> 01:07:54,250
he'll print faster," you know.
2121
01:07:54,334 --> 01:07:55,980
"Here, Tom.
2122
01:07:54,334 --> 01:07:57,626
he'd give me a bump.
2123
01:07:55,981 --> 01:07:57,626
Go in the darkroom,"
2124
01:07:59,125 --> 01:08:00,334
You know,
2125
01:08:00,335 --> 01:08:01,542
my father said to me,
2126
01:08:01,626 --> 01:08:04,125
- "How can Robert call himself
- A photographer
2127
01:08:04,209 --> 01:08:05,543
If he doesn't even know how
2128
01:08:05,544 --> 01:08:06,876
to process a roll of film?"
2129
01:08:06,959 --> 01:08:10,125
But Robert had a vision,
2130
01:08:10,209 --> 01:08:11,688
he always had a certain
2131
01:08:11,689 --> 01:08:13,167
way of seeing things,
2132
01:08:13,250 --> 01:08:16,375
so how you got there didn't
2133
01:08:16,376 --> 01:08:19,500
really concern him so much.
2134
01:08:19,584 --> 01:08:21,251
Baril:
2135
01:08:19,584 --> 01:08:22,918
to just be flawless.
2136
01:08:21,252 --> 01:08:22,918
He wanted everything
2137
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,125
You know, "Let's make this
2138
01:08:25,126 --> 01:08:27,250
guy's arm meet this corner,"
2139
01:08:27,334 --> 01:08:28,417
and, you know,
2140
01:08:27,334 --> 01:08:29,500
out a little bit."
2141
01:08:28,418 --> 01:08:29,500
"Let's straighten it
2142
01:08:29,584 --> 01:08:31,126
But it's a guy pissing
2143
01:08:29,584 --> 01:08:32,667
What's the fucking difference?
2144
01:08:31,127 --> 01:08:32,667
in another guy's mouth.
2145
01:08:34,542 --> 01:08:37,438
He wanted things as, you know,
2146
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,334
unrealistically perfect
2147
01:08:40,417 --> 01:08:42,438
and smooth and take all
2148
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:44,459
the flaws out of the skin.
2149
01:08:44,542 --> 01:08:46,001
Some days we'd sit
2150
01:08:46,002 --> 01:08:47,459
and just retouch for a day
2151
01:08:47,542 --> 01:08:48,896
until all the blemishes
2152
01:08:48,897 --> 01:08:50,250
were gone.
2153
01:08:56,042 --> 01:08:57,313
Mapplethorpe:
2154
01:08:56,042 --> 01:08:58,584
about doing a book
2155
01:08:57,314 --> 01:08:58,584
I talked to Patti
2156
01:08:58,667 --> 01:09:00,813
and having her
2157
01:09:00,814 --> 01:09:02,959
transform herself
2158
01:09:03,042 --> 01:09:04,459
into all these different
2159
01:09:03,042 --> 01:09:05,876
been Patti.
2160
01:09:04,460 --> 01:09:05,876
characters that would have
2161
01:09:05,959 --> 01:09:07,768
- I mean, she would be
- This character one day
2162
01:09:07,792 --> 01:09:09,042
And that character another.
2163
01:09:09,125 --> 01:09:10,271
And I think, you know,
2164
01:09:10,272 --> 01:09:11,417
she had a certain range
2165
01:09:11,500 --> 01:09:13,063
that could've probably
2166
01:09:13,064 --> 01:09:14,626
carried a whole book,
2167
01:09:14,709 --> 01:09:16,272
but I never
2168
01:09:16,273 --> 01:09:17,834
did a book with her.
2169
01:09:24,125 --> 01:09:26,917
When I met Lisa, I realized
2170
01:09:24,125 --> 01:09:29,709
range within her,
2171
01:09:26,918 --> 01:09:29,709
that she, in fact, had this
2172
01:09:29,792 --> 01:09:31,876
a very different range, but it
2173
01:09:31,877 --> 01:09:33,959
was still worthy of a book.
2174
01:09:35,459 --> 01:09:37,834
I thought she was unique.
2175
01:09:37,918 --> 01:09:39,501
She had this form that I had
2176
01:09:39,502 --> 01:09:41,083
never seen before.
2177
01:09:41,167 --> 01:09:42,522
It was like
2178
01:09:42,523 --> 01:09:43,876
a complete new animal.
2179
01:09:45,709 --> 01:09:46,814
Martineau:
2180
01:09:45,709 --> 01:09:47,918
important to Mapplethorpe
2181
01:09:46,815 --> 01:09:47,918
She was particularly
2182
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:49,042
because he was
2183
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,083
his sex pictures
2184
01:09:49,043 --> 01:09:50,083
trying to balance out
2185
01:09:50,167 --> 01:09:51,355
with pictures of women.
2186
01:09:51,356 --> 01:09:52,542
Mm-hmm.
2187
01:09:52,626 --> 01:09:53,935
- It's so interesting
- To think about
2188
01:09:53,959 --> 01:09:56,188
How the female body building
2189
01:09:56,189 --> 01:09:58,417
idea then was really radical
2190
01:09:58,500 --> 01:09:59,876
and, kind of, challenging.
2191
01:09:59,959 --> 01:10:02,167
That kind of physique to us
2192
01:09:59,959 --> 01:10:04,375
Right.
2193
01:10:02,168 --> 01:10:04,375
doesn't seem so shocking.
2194
01:10:04,459 --> 01:10:06,417
She's such
2195
01:10:06,418 --> 01:10:08,375
a prominent subject.
2196
01:10:08,459 --> 01:10:10,668
Very '80s,
2197
01:10:08,459 --> 01:10:12,876
Oh, yeah.
2198
01:10:10,669 --> 01:10:12,876
the make-up, the hair.
2199
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:14,751
- The ruffle blouse.
- Mm-hmm.
2200
01:10:14,834 --> 01:10:16,417
The shoulder pads.
2201
01:10:16,500 --> 01:10:18,459
- Lyon: - It was prototype
- For a new species.
2202
01:10:18,542 --> 01:10:20,167
Sort of an animal perfection,
2203
01:10:20,168 --> 01:10:21,792
and I felt in him
2204
01:10:21,876 --> 01:10:23,001
a kind of male version
2205
01:10:23,002 --> 01:10:24,125
of the same thing.
2206
01:10:24,209 --> 01:10:26,042
- My ambition that
- I discussed with him
2207
01:10:26,125 --> 01:10:28,500
- Was to explore
- The range of possibilities
2208
01:10:28,584 --> 01:10:30,042
Of ways of viewing a woman.
2209
01:10:30,125 --> 01:10:31,250
Historical ways,
2210
01:10:31,251 --> 01:10:32,375
contemporary ways,
2211
01:10:32,459 --> 01:10:34,918
cliché ways, unheard of ways,
2212
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:36,271
tribal ways,
2213
01:10:36,272 --> 01:10:37,542
the high fashion type,
2214
01:10:37,626 --> 01:10:38,897
the sex goddess type,
2215
01:10:38,898 --> 01:10:40,167
the lingerie type,
2216
01:10:40,250 --> 01:10:41,334
the bondage type,
2217
01:10:41,335 --> 01:10:42,417
the virgin type,
2218
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:43,667
the bridal type,
2219
01:10:43,668 --> 01:10:44,834
the statue type.
2220
01:10:44,918 --> 01:10:47,334
♪ ♪
2221
01:10:47,417 --> 01:10:49,396
Squiers:
2222
01:10:47,417 --> 01:10:51,375
very daring
2223
01:10:49,397 --> 01:10:51,375
What had seemed
2224
01:10:51,459 --> 01:10:55,209
when he did it with men...
2225
01:10:57,584 --> 01:10:59,897
looked very retrograde
2226
01:10:59,898 --> 01:11:02,209
when he did it with a woman
2227
01:11:02,292 --> 01:11:04,896
who was dressing up in
2228
01:11:04,897 --> 01:11:07,500
different hats and garments.
2229
01:11:10,250 --> 01:11:12,084
And so I wrote about that
2230
01:11:12,085 --> 01:11:13,918
and he was furious.
2231
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:15,250
I think he called me
2232
01:11:15,251 --> 01:11:16,500
and yelled at me.
2233
01:11:16,584 --> 01:11:19,292
I feel, like, it may
2234
01:11:16,584 --> 01:11:22,000
to write that review.
2235
01:11:19,293 --> 01:11:22,000
have been a bad idea
2236
01:11:24,167 --> 01:11:25,959
- I mean, that is
- Sculpture to me,
2237
01:11:26,042 --> 01:11:27,501
You know, and that's, sort of,
2238
01:11:26,042 --> 01:11:28,959
I'm making in photography
2239
01:11:27,502 --> 01:11:28,959
one of the points that
2240
01:11:29,042 --> 01:11:31,417
is being a sculptor
2241
01:11:29,042 --> 01:11:33,792
to spend all the time,
2242
01:11:31,418 --> 01:11:33,792
without actually having
2243
01:11:33,876 --> 01:11:35,105
sort of, modeling
2244
01:11:35,106 --> 01:11:36,334
with your hands.
2245
01:11:36,417 --> 01:11:37,584
You know, that's much
2246
01:11:37,585 --> 01:11:38,751
too archaic for me.
2247
01:11:38,834 --> 01:11:41,542
- It's like inventing sculpture
- Myself with a camera.
2248
01:11:41,626 --> 01:11:43,209
It really is like bronze.
2249
01:11:43,292 --> 01:11:45,771
I'd often say that
2250
01:11:43,292 --> 01:11:48,250
is like photographing bronzes.
2251
01:11:45,772 --> 01:11:48,250
photographing black men
2252
01:11:49,626 --> 01:11:51,042
(camera shutter clicks)
2253
01:11:51,125 --> 01:11:53,271
I was the last white
2254
01:11:53,272 --> 01:11:55,417
intimate person in his life.
2255
01:11:55,500 --> 01:11:57,271
After that, he was only
2256
01:11:57,272 --> 01:11:59,042
sleeping with black people,
2257
01:11:59,125 --> 01:12:01,500
photographing black people.
2258
01:12:01,584 --> 01:12:03,105
He became obsessed
2259
01:12:03,106 --> 01:12:04,626
with black people.
2260
01:12:10,918 --> 01:12:13,293
Mapplethorpe:
2261
01:12:10,918 --> 01:12:15,667
physically attractive to me.
2262
01:12:13,294 --> 01:12:15,667
All I know is that it's
2263
01:12:15,751 --> 01:12:18,542
Visually, it's also attractive
2264
01:12:18,626 --> 01:12:21,876
and so, you know, it became
2265
01:12:18,626 --> 01:12:25,125
these pictures of blacks.
2266
01:12:21,877 --> 01:12:25,125
an obsession with me taking
2267
01:12:25,209 --> 01:12:27,126
People had accused him
2268
01:12:27,127 --> 01:12:29,042
of exploiting these people.
2269
01:12:29,125 --> 01:12:33,500
And, um... he told me
2270
01:12:33,584 --> 01:12:34,834
he photographed
2271
01:12:34,835 --> 01:12:36,083
what he loved to do
2272
01:12:36,167 --> 01:12:37,188
and the people
2273
01:12:37,189 --> 01:12:38,209
he loved to be with,
2274
01:12:38,292 --> 01:12:40,063
and to me,
2275
01:12:40,064 --> 01:12:41,834
that's not exploitation.
2276
01:12:41,918 --> 01:12:44,584
That's just living your life
2277
01:12:44,667 --> 01:12:45,959
and using a camera
2278
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:47,250
to document it.
2279
01:12:47,334 --> 01:12:49,105
Mapplethorpe:
2280
01:12:47,334 --> 01:12:50,876
have photographed blacks,
2281
01:12:49,106 --> 01:12:50,876
For the most part, when whites
2282
01:12:50,959 --> 01:12:53,605
they have, sort of,
2283
01:12:50,959 --> 01:12:56,250
social point of view.
2284
01:12:53,606 --> 01:12:56,250
shown them from a certain
2285
01:12:56,334 --> 01:12:58,167
I'm photographing them as form
2286
01:12:56,334 --> 01:13:00,000
I'm reading the flowers
2287
01:12:58,168 --> 01:13:00,000
in the same way that
2288
01:13:00,083 --> 01:13:01,167
or anything else
2289
01:13:01,168 --> 01:13:02,250
that I photograph.
2290
01:13:02,334 --> 01:13:04,813
I'm not attempting to make
2291
01:13:02,334 --> 01:13:07,292
about their plight.
2292
01:13:04,814 --> 01:13:07,292
a social statement
2293
01:13:07,375 --> 01:13:09,501
Robert was looking for God
2294
01:13:09,502 --> 01:13:11,626
in a black man,
2295
01:13:11,709 --> 01:13:14,417
and he found him
2296
01:13:14,418 --> 01:13:17,125
in Milton Moore
2297
01:13:17,209 --> 01:13:19,918
and fell in love with him.
2298
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:25,584
Now, I think he fell in love,
2299
01:13:25,667 --> 01:13:27,834
and this sounds ridiculous,
2300
01:13:27,835 --> 01:13:30,000
with Milton's penis.
2301
01:13:32,292 --> 01:13:35,188
Robert was looking
2302
01:13:32,292 --> 01:13:38,083
black penis.
2303
01:13:35,189 --> 01:13:38,083
for the absolute perfect
2304
01:13:38,167 --> 01:13:39,375
And he had it,
2305
01:13:39,459 --> 01:13:41,105
I mean, the exact
2306
01:13:41,106 --> 01:13:42,751
measurements down.
2307
01:13:42,834 --> 01:13:44,751
I mean, it had to be
2308
01:13:42,834 --> 01:13:46,667
with others,
2309
01:13:44,752 --> 01:13:46,667
just so and he'd discuss it
2310
01:13:46,751 --> 01:13:48,335
and, you know,
2311
01:13:48,336 --> 01:13:49,918
the ratio to this and that.
2312
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:51,917
The thing the world is
2313
01:13:51,918 --> 01:13:53,834
most afraid of is penis.
2314
01:13:53,918 --> 01:13:56,292
And Robert dared show penis,
2315
01:13:56,375 --> 01:13:57,834
but he dared show black penis,
2316
01:13:57,918 --> 01:14:00,376
and there's nothing more scary
2317
01:13:57,918 --> 01:14:02,834
sexual prejudice
2318
01:14:00,377 --> 01:14:02,834
because behind all of
2319
01:14:02,918 --> 01:14:04,355
is the sex envy,
2320
01:14:04,356 --> 01:14:05,792
this penis envy
2321
01:14:05,876 --> 01:14:09,083
that drives people insane
2322
01:14:09,167 --> 01:14:12,459
either with lust or with fear.
2323
01:14:12,542 --> 01:14:14,500
- Morrisroe:
- Milton did say to him
2324
01:14:14,584 --> 01:14:15,730
As one condition
2325
01:14:15,731 --> 01:14:16,876
of taking the pictures
2326
01:14:16,959 --> 01:14:19,542
that he could not show
2327
01:14:19,543 --> 01:14:22,125
his head in the frame.
2328
01:14:22,209 --> 01:14:25,417
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
2329
01:14:34,584 --> 01:14:35,772
Morrisroe:
2330
01:14:34,584 --> 01:14:36,959
in Polyester Suit"
2331
01:14:35,773 --> 01:14:36,959
"Picture of Man
2332
01:14:37,042 --> 01:14:38,792
- was really
- One of his most famous.
2333
01:14:38,876 --> 01:14:42,126
Milton had picked up
2334
01:14:38,876 --> 01:14:45,375
and was very proud of it,
2335
01:14:42,127 --> 01:14:45,375
that suit in Hong Kong
2336
01:14:45,459 --> 01:14:47,084
and Robert purposely
2337
01:14:47,085 --> 01:14:48,709
lined up his thumb
2338
01:14:48,792 --> 01:14:50,688
so that it would show off
2339
01:14:50,689 --> 01:14:52,584
the cheap seams.
2340
01:14:55,334 --> 01:14:57,226
- Man: - I'd never seen it, and then
- We went to the framers
2341
01:14:57,250 --> 01:14:59,125
And I saw it laying on
2342
01:14:57,250 --> 01:15:01,000
be put into the frame,
2343
01:14:59,126 --> 01:15:01,000
the floor as it was gonna
2344
01:15:01,083 --> 01:15:03,083
and I said,
2345
01:15:03,167 --> 01:15:05,543
"Robert, this is a show that
2346
01:15:05,544 --> 01:15:07,918
the whole world will see."
2347
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,376
He said to me,
2348
01:15:10,377 --> 01:15:12,751
"Will anyone write about it?"
2349
01:15:12,834 --> 01:15:14,751
That was his comment.
2350
01:15:14,752 --> 01:15:16,667
And they did.
2351
01:15:16,751 --> 01:15:17,980
Man:
2352
01:15:16,751 --> 01:15:19,209
a big black dude
2353
01:15:17,981 --> 01:15:19,209
"Main picture here is
2354
01:15:19,292 --> 01:15:20,834
"seen in an expensive vested
2355
01:15:20,835 --> 01:15:22,375
gabardine suit
2356
01:15:22,459 --> 01:15:24,084
"with his fly open and his
2357
01:15:24,085 --> 01:15:25,709
elephant cock sticking out.
2358
01:15:25,792 --> 01:15:26,980
"This picture's ugly,
2359
01:15:26,981 --> 01:15:28,167
degrading, obscene,
2360
01:15:28,250 --> 01:15:30,542
- (chuckling)
- "Typical of the artist's work,
2361
01:15:30,626 --> 01:15:32,459
"which appeal
2362
01:15:30,626 --> 01:15:34,292
lascivious collectors
2363
01:15:32,460 --> 01:15:34,292
largely to drooling
2364
01:15:34,375 --> 01:15:36,626
"who buy them and return
2365
01:15:34,375 --> 01:15:38,876
to jerk off."
2366
01:15:36,627 --> 01:15:38,876
to their furnished rooms
2367
01:15:38,959 --> 01:15:41,500
(laughing)
2368
01:15:41,584 --> 01:15:44,647
We actually did
2369
01:15:41,584 --> 01:15:47,709
during the exhibition
2370
01:15:44,648 --> 01:15:47,709
sell that picture
2371
01:15:47,792 --> 01:15:50,626
to a collector
2372
01:15:47,792 --> 01:15:53,459
and it was a reach.
2373
01:15:50,627 --> 01:15:53,459
in New York for $2,500,
2374
01:15:53,542 --> 01:15:55,230
It was a big price
2375
01:15:55,231 --> 01:15:56,918
for a photograph,
2376
01:15:57,000 --> 01:15:58,813
and especially
2377
01:15:58,814 --> 01:16:00,626
by a living photographer.
2378
01:16:00,709 --> 01:16:02,001
There were 20
2379
01:16:02,002 --> 01:16:03,292
works in the show
2380
01:16:03,375 --> 01:16:05,209
and we placed all of them
2381
01:16:05,210 --> 01:16:07,042
with very strong collectors,
2382
01:16:07,125 --> 01:16:08,876
- which was very
- Important for Robert.
2383
01:16:08,959 --> 01:16:10,521
This was the first show that
2384
01:16:10,522 --> 01:16:12,083
that had ever happened to him.
2385
01:16:12,167 --> 01:16:13,792
And it was a kind
2386
01:16:13,793 --> 01:16:15,417
of lightning rod
2387
01:16:15,500 --> 01:16:18,500
and it was notorious.
2388
01:16:18,584 --> 01:16:20,647
Auctioneer:
2389
01:16:18,584 --> 01:16:22,709
"Man in Polyester Suit."
2390
01:16:20,648 --> 01:16:22,709
Lot 144, Robert Mapplethorpe's
2391
01:16:22,792 --> 01:16:24,292
And I'm gonna start
2392
01:16:24,293 --> 01:16:25,792
the bidding here at $180,000.
2393
01:16:25,876 --> 01:16:29,188
It's possibly one of the top
2394
01:16:25,876 --> 01:16:32,500
in photographic history.
2395
01:16:29,189 --> 01:16:32,500
10 most recognizable images
2396
01:16:32,584 --> 01:16:34,209
210, 220.
2397
01:16:34,292 --> 01:16:36,667
It's an iconic image.
2398
01:16:36,751 --> 01:16:38,209
You know, it's, like,
2399
01:16:38,210 --> 01:16:39,667
Andy's "Marilyn."
2400
01:16:39,751 --> 01:16:42,459
360, 380...
2401
01:16:42,542 --> 01:16:44,709
$390,000.
2402
01:16:52,751 --> 01:16:54,001
Marino:
2403
01:16:52,751 --> 01:16:55,250
that photography
2404
01:16:54,002 --> 01:16:55,250
None of us realized
2405
01:16:55,334 --> 01:16:57,501
at its... the beginning
2406
01:16:57,502 --> 01:16:59,667
was just considered
2407
01:16:59,751 --> 01:17:01,105
commercial reproduction,
2408
01:17:01,106 --> 01:17:02,459
commercial reproduction.
2409
01:17:02,542 --> 01:17:04,167
Many collectors would
2410
01:17:04,168 --> 01:17:05,792
never dream of collecting.
2411
01:17:05,876 --> 01:17:08,522
And I think Mapplethorpe is
2412
01:17:08,523 --> 01:17:11,167
one of the artists responsible
2413
01:17:11,250 --> 01:17:14,063
for photography being
2414
01:17:11,250 --> 01:17:16,876
with sculpture and painting.
2415
01:17:14,064 --> 01:17:16,876
considered on an equal basis
2416
01:17:16,959 --> 01:17:19,751
I never for a second
2417
01:17:16,959 --> 01:17:22,542
was a very real art.
2418
01:17:19,752 --> 01:17:22,542
doubted that photography
2419
01:17:22,626 --> 01:17:24,834
And there's just something
2420
01:17:22,626 --> 01:17:27,042
immediately attracted me.
2421
01:17:24,835 --> 01:17:27,042
about his photography that
2422
01:17:27,125 --> 01:17:29,896
I was shocked
2423
01:17:27,125 --> 01:17:32,667
honesty about everything,
2424
01:17:29,897 --> 01:17:32,667
by his absolute brutal
2425
01:17:32,751 --> 01:17:34,751
from sexual organs
2426
01:17:32,751 --> 01:17:36,751
between people.
2427
01:17:34,752 --> 01:17:36,751
to relationships
2428
01:17:36,834 --> 01:17:38,917
Mapplethorpe:
2429
01:17:36,834 --> 01:17:41,000
influenced me the most
2430
01:17:38,918 --> 01:17:41,000
You know, the people that have
2431
01:17:41,083 --> 01:17:42,209
are the relationships
2432
01:17:42,210 --> 01:17:43,334
I've had, you know,
2433
01:17:43,417 --> 01:17:44,855
the lovers
2434
01:17:44,856 --> 01:17:46,292
I've had in my life.
2435
01:17:46,375 --> 01:17:48,042
And of course
2436
01:17:46,375 --> 01:17:49,709
every one of them.
2437
01:17:48,043 --> 01:17:49,709
I've photographed
2438
01:17:49,792 --> 01:17:52,209
The only time Robert ever
2439
01:17:49,792 --> 01:17:54,626
how much he loved Milton.
2440
01:17:52,210 --> 01:17:54,626
cried was talking about
2441
01:17:54,709 --> 01:17:58,042
Not Patti, Milton. Milton.
2442
01:17:58,125 --> 01:18:00,667
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
2443
01:18:14,792 --> 01:18:17,417
He had just did that
2444
01:18:14,792 --> 01:18:20,042
at Robert Miller Gallery.
2445
01:18:17,418 --> 01:18:20,042
show called "Black Males"
2446
01:18:20,125 --> 01:18:23,292
So I went to go see that show.
2447
01:18:23,375 --> 01:18:24,834
I said, "That's gonna
2448
01:18:24,835 --> 01:18:26,292
be my boyfriend."
2449
01:18:27,459 --> 01:18:29,084
We lived together for
2450
01:18:29,085 --> 01:18:30,709
the better part of a decade.
2451
01:18:30,792 --> 01:18:35,459
We rarely fought, you know,
2452
01:18:35,542 --> 01:18:37,376
because he was too
2453
01:18:37,377 --> 01:18:39,209
self-absorbed to really care.
2454
01:18:39,292 --> 01:18:41,000
- It was so easy to be
- Around him
2455
01:18:41,083 --> 01:18:43,542
Because he was so busy
2456
01:18:43,543 --> 01:18:46,000
being Robert Mapplethorpe.
2457
01:18:47,918 --> 01:18:50,959
When we started seeing
2458
01:18:47,918 --> 01:18:54,000
taking pictures, right?
2459
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:54,000
each other, he started
2460
01:18:54,083 --> 01:18:56,501
And I was, kind of, shy,
2461
01:18:54,083 --> 01:18:58,918
nude pictures.
2462
01:18:56,502 --> 01:18:58,918
so I didn't wanna take
2463
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,792
And Robert goes,
2464
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,584
at your dick."
2465
01:19:00,793 --> 01:19:02,584
"Just don't look
2466
01:19:02,667 --> 01:19:04,084
He goes,
2467
01:19:04,085 --> 01:19:05,500
"It's just a picture."
2468
01:19:08,167 --> 01:19:11,125
Man:
2469
01:19:08,167 --> 01:19:14,083
of Ken Moody's dick.
2470
01:19:11,126 --> 01:19:14,083
There is no picture
2471
01:19:14,167 --> 01:19:15,813
There just isn't,
2472
01:19:15,814 --> 01:19:17,459
and I'm sorry.
2473
01:19:17,542 --> 01:19:18,751
(laughing)
2474
01:19:18,834 --> 01:19:20,313
As soon as I stood
2475
01:19:20,314 --> 01:19:21,792
in front of the seamless,
2476
01:19:21,876 --> 01:19:24,209
it was magic.
2477
01:19:24,292 --> 01:19:26,542
It was absolute magic.
2478
01:19:28,751 --> 01:19:31,501
There's no way
2479
01:19:28,751 --> 01:19:34,250
other than making love.
2480
01:19:31,502 --> 01:19:34,250
you can describe it
2481
01:19:35,667 --> 01:19:39,021
And as soon as we stepped away
2482
01:19:39,022 --> 01:19:42,375
from that backdrop, nothing.
2483
01:19:42,459 --> 01:19:45,000
Absolutely nothing.
2484
01:19:45,083 --> 01:19:46,771
We had nothing in common,
2485
01:19:45,083 --> 01:19:48,459
to each other.
2486
01:19:46,772 --> 01:19:48,459
We had nothing to say
2487
01:19:48,542 --> 01:19:51,855
There was a ghetto
2488
01:19:48,542 --> 01:19:55,167
the strongest attraction to.
2489
01:19:51,856 --> 01:19:55,167
element to men that he had
2490
01:19:55,250 --> 01:19:56,626
I had none of that.
2491
01:19:56,709 --> 01:19:59,001
He was quoted in
2492
01:19:56,709 --> 01:20:01,292
I was too "white" for him.
2493
01:19:59,002 --> 01:20:01,292
an article as saying
2494
01:20:03,626 --> 01:20:05,000
Too white.
2495
01:20:05,083 --> 01:20:08,000
(laughing)
2496
01:20:08,083 --> 01:20:09,723
- Mapplethorpe:
- I brought them together.
2497
01:20:09,792 --> 01:20:11,084
It was interesting
2498
01:20:09,792 --> 01:20:12,375
and never had a conversation
2499
01:20:11,085 --> 01:20:12,375
'cause they had never met
2500
01:20:12,459 --> 01:20:14,271
with somebody else
2501
01:20:12,459 --> 01:20:16,083
their hair as a child.
2502
01:20:14,272 --> 01:20:16,083
that they had lost all
2503
01:20:16,167 --> 01:20:17,688
And it was
2504
01:20:17,689 --> 01:20:19,209
interesting to watch them
2505
01:20:19,292 --> 01:20:20,438
react and relate
2506
01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:21,584
to each other.
2507
01:20:21,667 --> 01:20:22,855
Sherman:
2508
01:20:22,856 --> 01:20:24,042
The more time goes by,
2509
01:20:24,125 --> 01:20:25,563
the bigger that
2510
01:20:25,564 --> 01:20:27,000
photograph gets.
2511
01:20:27,083 --> 01:20:28,792
When it was in Times Square
2512
01:20:28,793 --> 01:20:30,500
on the NASDAQ billboard,
2513
01:20:30,584 --> 01:20:32,501
that was, like,
2514
01:20:32,502 --> 01:20:34,417
"Wow. Where's my mother?"
2515
01:20:37,584 --> 01:20:40,126
I've read several things
2516
01:20:40,127 --> 01:20:42,667
on the shot of Ken and I.
2517
01:20:42,751 --> 01:20:45,293
It's like
2518
01:20:42,751 --> 01:20:47,834
of this philosophy into it.
2519
01:20:45,294 --> 01:20:47,834
they tried to read all
2520
01:20:47,918 --> 01:20:50,501
Black Ken, eyes closed,
2521
01:20:50,502 --> 01:20:53,083
meaning the subconscious.
2522
01:20:53,167 --> 01:20:55,792
White Robert, eyes open,
2523
01:20:55,793 --> 01:20:58,417
afraid of the unconscious.
2524
01:20:58,500 --> 01:21:00,375
I'm, like, "What?"
2525
01:21:00,459 --> 01:21:02,147
The black man
2526
01:21:02,148 --> 01:21:03,834
was in the background
2527
01:21:03,918 --> 01:21:05,668
because the black man's neck
2528
01:21:05,669 --> 01:21:07,417
wasn't long enough
2529
01:21:07,500 --> 01:21:09,521
to reach over
2530
01:21:09,522 --> 01:21:11,542
the white man's shoulder.
2531
01:21:11,626 --> 01:21:13,209
We tried it and my neck
2532
01:21:13,210 --> 01:21:14,792
wasn't long enough.
2533
01:21:14,876 --> 01:21:16,230
I think that's why
2534
01:21:16,231 --> 01:21:17,584
he did every position.
2535
01:21:17,667 --> 01:21:18,875
Exactly.
2536
01:21:17,667 --> 01:21:20,083
what worked best.
2537
01:21:18,876 --> 01:21:20,083
To find out
2538
01:21:20,167 --> 01:21:22,209
There was no
2539
01:21:22,210 --> 01:21:24,250
philosophical anything to...
2540
01:21:24,334 --> 01:21:26,542
Robert was so not like that.
2541
01:21:26,626 --> 01:21:28,292
No. Totally not.
2542
01:21:28,375 --> 01:21:30,000
Take your shirt off.
2543
01:21:30,083 --> 01:21:31,459
It sounds silly.
2544
01:21:30,083 --> 01:21:32,834
using the word, magic.
2545
01:21:31,460 --> 01:21:32,834
I guess, you know,
2546
01:21:32,918 --> 01:21:34,709
And fold your arms.
2547
01:21:34,792 --> 01:21:35,959
Stay right there.
2548
01:21:34,792 --> 01:21:37,125
a little bit.
2549
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:37,125
Lift your head up
2550
01:21:37,209 --> 01:21:39,146
I was able to pick up
2551
01:21:37,209 --> 01:21:41,083
and work with it,
2552
01:21:39,147 --> 01:21:41,083
the magic of the moment
2553
01:21:41,167 --> 01:21:42,584
you know, that's my rush
2554
01:21:42,585 --> 01:21:44,000
in doing photography.
2555
01:21:44,083 --> 01:21:46,500
Ken, hold that! Hold that!
2556
01:21:46,584 --> 01:21:48,542
- Tilt a little right
- And turn a little right.
2557
01:21:48,626 --> 01:21:50,584
Turn your head to the right,
2558
01:21:48,626 --> 01:21:52,542
back to me.
2559
01:21:50,585 --> 01:21:52,542
now bring your eyes
2560
01:21:54,167 --> 01:21:55,876
Look back here.
2561
01:21:55,959 --> 01:21:57,500
Lean right, turn right.
2562
01:21:57,584 --> 01:21:58,917
Put your head down,
2563
01:21:58,918 --> 01:22:00,250
now bring your eyes up.
2564
01:22:00,334 --> 01:22:01,938
Click, click, click,
2565
01:22:01,939 --> 01:22:03,542
click, click, eyes to me.
2566
01:22:03,626 --> 01:22:05,500
Click. Chin up.
2567
01:22:05,584 --> 01:22:06,917
Walls:
2568
01:22:06,918 --> 01:22:08,250
Turn this way.
2569
01:22:08,334 --> 01:22:09,834
Turn your head this way.
2570
01:22:09,835 --> 01:22:11,334
Yeah, more.
2571
01:22:11,417 --> 01:22:13,125
More. More.
2572
01:22:13,209 --> 01:22:14,584
And instead
2573
01:22:13,209 --> 01:22:15,959
look straight out.
2574
01:22:14,585 --> 01:22:15,959
of looking to the side,
2575
01:22:16,042 --> 01:22:18,375
- Often I'm dealing
- With fractions of inches.
2576
01:22:18,459 --> 01:22:19,689
Here, you can even...
2577
01:22:19,690 --> 01:22:20,918
Now turn.
2578
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:22,560
- Just... Yeah, - From the neck.
- Stay there.
2579
01:22:22,584 --> 01:22:23,605
I'm looking for
2580
01:22:23,606 --> 01:22:24,626
that perfect position
2581
01:22:24,709 --> 01:22:26,584
where the head sort of,
2582
01:22:26,585 --> 01:22:28,459
somehow makes sense to me.
2583
01:22:28,542 --> 01:22:30,084
Actually, I should take it
2584
01:22:28,542 --> 01:22:31,626
coming in at you.
2585
01:22:30,085 --> 01:22:31,626
with all these things
2586
01:22:31,709 --> 01:22:33,709
- A little... Look this way
- Towards... yeah.
2587
01:22:35,125 --> 01:22:37,125
That's rather good, actually.
2588
01:22:41,959 --> 01:22:43,647
I'm gonna start showing
2589
01:22:43,648 --> 01:22:45,334
a series of portraits.
2590
01:22:45,417 --> 01:22:47,396
I'll stop at any point,
2591
01:22:45,417 --> 01:22:49,375
too much about the pictures
2592
01:22:47,397 --> 01:22:49,375
but I don't want to comment
2593
01:22:49,459 --> 01:22:52,042
- 'cause I wanna get... I want
- My vision to come across,
2594
01:22:52,125 --> 01:22:54,209
The way I see things.
2595
01:22:54,292 --> 01:22:56,042
That's William Burroughs.
2596
01:22:56,125 --> 01:22:57,688
Philip Glass on the left,
2597
01:22:57,689 --> 01:22:59,250
Robert Wilson on the right.
2598
01:22:59,334 --> 01:23:01,043
And Donald Sutherland,
2599
01:22:59,334 --> 01:23:02,751
I've ever photographed.
2600
01:23:01,044 --> 01:23:02,751
one of the best subjects
2601
01:23:02,834 --> 01:23:05,001
Annie Leibovitz, one of
2602
01:23:02,834 --> 01:23:07,167
I've ever photographed.
2603
01:23:05,002 --> 01:23:07,167
the most difficult subjects
2604
01:23:07,250 --> 01:23:08,751
(audience laughing)
2605
01:23:08,834 --> 01:23:11,167
That's Debbie Harry.
2606
01:23:11,250 --> 01:23:12,250
Harry:
2607
01:23:11,250 --> 01:23:13,250
a couple of times,
2608
01:23:12,251 --> 01:23:13,250
I sat for him
2609
01:23:13,334 --> 01:23:14,792
which was pretty scary
2610
01:23:14,793 --> 01:23:16,250
for me the first time.
2611
01:23:16,334 --> 01:23:17,543
Smiling wasn't
2612
01:23:17,544 --> 01:23:18,751
his thing, you know.
2613
01:23:18,834 --> 01:23:21,022
The way that he saw people was
2614
01:23:21,023 --> 01:23:23,209
like he was seeing into them
2615
01:23:23,292 --> 01:23:24,709
- or something,
- Or through them.
2616
01:23:24,792 --> 01:23:26,605
Mapplethorpe:
2617
01:23:24,792 --> 01:23:28,417
it's necessary to tell you
2618
01:23:26,606 --> 01:23:28,417
I don't think
2619
01:23:28,500 --> 01:23:30,271
who is in each photograph
2620
01:23:28,500 --> 01:23:32,042
are good,
2621
01:23:30,272 --> 01:23:32,042
because if the pictures
2622
01:23:32,125 --> 01:23:33,688
then they'll
2623
01:23:32,125 --> 01:23:35,250
are and it doesn't matter.
2624
01:23:33,689 --> 01:23:35,250
transcend who they
2625
01:23:35,334 --> 01:23:36,709
He became known
2626
01:23:35,334 --> 01:23:38,083
of his portraits.
2627
01:23:36,710 --> 01:23:38,083
for the elegance
2628
01:23:38,167 --> 01:23:39,792
And any photographer who takes
2629
01:23:39,793 --> 01:23:41,417
pictures of celebrities
2630
01:23:41,500 --> 01:23:43,083
- is making a smart
- Business move
2631
01:23:43,167 --> 01:23:44,876
Because those people and their
2632
01:23:44,877 --> 01:23:46,584
friends have lots of money.
2633
01:23:46,667 --> 01:23:48,387
- And they buy pictures.
- Salvesen: - Yeah.
2634
01:23:48,459 --> 01:23:49,938
Well, and his social life was
2635
01:23:49,939 --> 01:23:51,417
a part of his artistic life.
2636
01:23:51,500 --> 01:23:52,542
- That's right.
- You know,
2637
01:23:52,626 --> 01:23:54,292
- It was all
- Very interconnected.
2638
01:24:03,751 --> 01:24:05,209
Mapplethorpe:
2639
01:24:03,751 --> 01:24:06,667
the subject to a point
2640
01:24:05,210 --> 01:24:06,667
Ideally, you get
2641
01:24:06,751 --> 01:24:08,459
where they direct themselves.
2642
01:24:08,542 --> 01:24:10,001
You know, they say, "Well,
2643
01:24:08,542 --> 01:24:11,459
I want to be photographed in."
2644
01:24:10,002 --> 01:24:11,459
this is really kind of what
2645
01:24:11,542 --> 01:24:13,063
I thought it was going to be
2646
01:24:13,064 --> 01:24:14,584
a catastrophe,
2647
01:24:14,667 --> 01:24:16,792
and I prepared for it.
2648
01:24:16,876 --> 01:24:19,459
So I did take a piece of mine.
2649
01:24:19,542 --> 01:24:20,584
It was a good
2650
01:24:20,585 --> 01:24:21,626
collaboration, right?
2651
01:24:21,709 --> 01:24:23,230
Because he's famous
2652
01:24:23,231 --> 01:24:24,751
not for his flower pictures.
2653
01:24:24,834 --> 01:24:27,772
He's famous
2654
01:24:24,834 --> 01:24:30,709
sexual representation.
2655
01:24:27,773 --> 01:24:30,709
for his objectionable
2656
01:24:30,792 --> 01:24:32,894
- Mapplethorpe: - You know taking pictures
- Of sex is no different
2657
01:24:32,918 --> 01:24:34,834
- Than photographing
- A flower really.
2658
01:24:34,918 --> 01:24:36,730
I mean, it's the same thing.
2659
01:24:34,918 --> 01:24:38,542
to whatever's going on
2660
01:24:36,731 --> 01:24:38,542
It's just submitting
2661
01:24:38,626 --> 01:24:40,772
and trying to get
2662
01:24:40,773 --> 01:24:42,918
the best possible view of it.
2663
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:45,230
And nobody else can photograph
2664
01:24:45,231 --> 01:24:47,459
flowers the way I do.
2665
01:24:47,542 --> 01:24:49,751
It's just the way I see.
2666
01:24:49,834 --> 01:24:51,667
Even Robert said it,
2667
01:24:49,834 --> 01:24:53,500
getting very, very, slick.
2668
01:24:51,668 --> 01:24:53,500
that the pictures started
2669
01:24:53,584 --> 01:24:55,063
That was the word.
2670
01:24:55,064 --> 01:24:56,542
So slick, so perfect.
2671
01:24:58,375 --> 01:25:01,626
But perfection,
2672
01:24:58,375 --> 01:25:04,876
characteristic. Perfection.
2673
01:25:01,627 --> 01:25:04,876
that's a Mapplethorpe
2674
01:25:08,918 --> 01:25:11,397
Anybody who was
2675
01:25:08,918 --> 01:25:13,876
will agree with me
2676
01:25:11,398 --> 01:25:13,876
involved in that studio
2677
01:25:13,959 --> 01:25:15,688
that you just got sucked
2678
01:25:15,689 --> 01:25:17,417
into Robert's world.
2679
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:19,292
You wanted to.
2680
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:21,083
you just did,
2681
01:25:19,293 --> 01:25:21,083
It wasn't... I mean,
2682
01:25:21,167 --> 01:25:22,727
- I mean, it was
- An interesting world.
2683
01:25:22,751 --> 01:25:24,189
It was a lot of excitement,
2684
01:25:24,190 --> 01:25:25,626
it was a lot of fun,
2685
01:25:25,709 --> 01:25:27,542
- but I wanted
- To do something else.
2686
01:25:29,083 --> 01:25:30,750
Can't just be
2687
01:25:29,083 --> 01:25:32,417
for the rest of my life.
2688
01:25:30,751 --> 01:25:32,417
Robert's assistant
2689
01:25:37,959 --> 01:25:39,251
So then the invitation
2690
01:25:39,252 --> 01:25:40,542
gets sent out.
2691
01:25:40,626 --> 01:25:42,334
Nice group of artists.
2692
01:25:42,335 --> 01:25:44,042
All alphabetical.
2693
01:25:44,125 --> 01:25:47,063
And lo and behold,
2694
01:25:44,125 --> 01:25:50,000
before Robert Mapplethorpe.
2695
01:25:47,064 --> 01:25:50,000
Edward Mapplethorpe comes
2696
01:25:50,083 --> 01:25:53,792
And he was... ruthless.
2697
01:25:53,876 --> 01:25:56,375
He was nasty.
2698
01:25:56,459 --> 01:25:59,751
And said,
2699
01:25:59,834 --> 01:26:00,917
"I'm not gonna have
2700
01:26:00,918 --> 01:26:02,000
any kid brother...
2701
01:26:02,083 --> 01:26:03,896
"I've worked really hard
2702
01:26:03,897 --> 01:26:05,709
to get where I've gotten,
2703
01:26:05,792 --> 01:26:08,001
"and if you think
2704
01:26:05,792 --> 01:26:10,209
and ride on my coattails..."
2705
01:26:08,002 --> 01:26:10,209
you're gonna come
2706
01:26:10,292 --> 01:26:13,584
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
2707
01:26:19,042 --> 01:26:20,792
And I was like,
2708
01:26:20,793 --> 01:26:22,542
"Fuck, man," I was like...
2709
01:26:25,209 --> 01:26:25,959
"Wow."
2710
01:26:26,042 --> 01:26:27,584
And Robert asked him
2711
01:26:27,585 --> 01:26:29,125
to change his name,
2712
01:26:29,209 --> 01:26:30,397
which he struggled with,
2713
01:26:30,398 --> 01:26:31,584
I think, for a while,
2714
01:26:31,667 --> 01:26:33,272
but then he did.
2715
01:26:33,273 --> 01:26:34,876
He changed it to Maxey.
2716
01:26:34,959 --> 01:26:38,667
Right. But...
2717
01:26:38,751 --> 01:26:40,397
It was all about Robert.
2718
01:26:40,398 --> 01:26:42,042
It was all about Robert.
2719
01:26:42,125 --> 01:26:43,751
- You know,
- They were brothers.
2720
01:26:43,834 --> 01:26:45,626
- Can't imagine
- What all that was like.
2721
01:26:46,751 --> 01:26:49,043
You know, it was
2722
01:26:49,044 --> 01:26:51,334
a futile attempt because...
2723
01:26:51,417 --> 01:26:53,084
"Oh, this is Edward Maxey.
2724
01:26:51,417 --> 01:26:54,751
brother."
2725
01:26:53,085 --> 01:26:54,751
He's Robert Mapplethorpe's
2726
01:26:54,834 --> 01:26:56,751
- I was, like, "Well,
- What good is this doing?
2727
01:26:56,834 --> 01:26:59,751
"This is ridiculous."
2728
01:26:59,834 --> 01:27:02,459
But yeah, it sucked.
2729
01:27:02,542 --> 01:27:06,167
That day sucked.
2730
01:27:06,250 --> 01:27:09,063
Just like the day that he got
2731
01:27:06,250 --> 01:27:11,876
I was gonna leave the studio.
2732
01:27:09,064 --> 01:27:11,876
angry at me for deciding that
2733
01:27:11,959 --> 01:27:13,639
- This is somebody
- That two years earlier
2734
01:27:13,709 --> 01:27:15,480
Didn't know whether he wanted
2735
01:27:15,481 --> 01:27:17,250
me in the studio with him.
2736
01:27:17,334 --> 01:27:20,480
Two years later, I guess,
2737
01:27:17,334 --> 01:27:23,626
quite a bit.
2738
01:27:20,481 --> 01:27:23,626
he learned to rely on me
2739
01:27:23,709 --> 01:27:27,417
And was angry, very angry.
2740
01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:29,334
♪ ♪
2741
01:27:32,626 --> 01:27:34,313
Tom Brokaw:
2742
01:27:32,626 --> 01:27:36,000
male homosexuals
2743
01:27:34,314 --> 01:27:36,000
The lifestyle of some
2744
01:27:36,083 --> 01:27:37,438
has triggered an epidemic
2745
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:38,792
of a rare form of cancer.
2746
01:27:38,876 --> 01:27:40,355
He would go to the bar
2747
01:27:40,356 --> 01:27:41,834
in the afternoon,
2748
01:27:41,918 --> 01:27:43,980
pick up someone,
2749
01:27:43,981 --> 01:27:46,042
have sex with them,
2750
01:27:46,125 --> 01:27:49,459
then go back later that night,
2751
01:27:49,542 --> 01:27:50,688
maybe and then
2752
01:27:50,689 --> 01:27:51,834
pick up somebody else,
2753
01:27:51,918 --> 01:27:53,793
and then towards
2754
01:27:51,918 --> 01:27:55,667
like, a nightcap.
2755
01:27:53,794 --> 01:27:55,667
the end of the night,
2756
01:27:55,751 --> 01:27:56,793
Woman:
2757
01:27:55,751 --> 01:27:57,834
Mayor Koch predicted
2758
01:27:56,794 --> 01:27:57,834
Last weekend,
2759
01:27:57,918 --> 01:27:59,043
that The Mine Shaft
2760
01:27:59,044 --> 01:28:00,167
would close.
2761
01:28:00,250 --> 01:28:01,918
They are selling death.
2762
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:03,271
Places where death
2763
01:28:03,272 --> 01:28:04,542
can be distributed.
2764
01:28:04,626 --> 01:28:06,043
They're making love
2765
01:28:04,626 --> 01:28:07,459
and everything.
2766
01:28:06,044 --> 01:28:07,459
in the street on top of cars
2767
01:28:07,542 --> 01:28:08,876
This is men. Grown men.
2768
01:28:08,877 --> 01:28:10,209
I mean, that's not normal.
2769
01:28:10,292 --> 01:28:11,876
Most of these people,
2770
01:28:10,292 --> 01:28:13,459
they're not human beings.
2771
01:28:11,877 --> 01:28:13,459
they're not fit,
2772
01:28:13,542 --> 01:28:15,209
That have emotional problems.
2773
01:28:15,292 --> 01:28:17,918
(Man's voice)
2774
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:19,500
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
2775
01:28:19,584 --> 01:28:23,375
(Man's voice)
2776
01:28:31,751 --> 01:28:34,292
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
2777
01:28:35,417 --> 01:28:37,792
♪ ♪
2778
01:28:40,959 --> 01:28:42,084
Walls:
2779
01:28:40,959 --> 01:28:43,209
with him for all those years,
2780
01:28:42,085 --> 01:28:43,209
'Cause I was sleeping
2781
01:28:43,292 --> 01:28:44,438
I thought that
2782
01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:45,584
I was gonna die.
2783
01:28:45,667 --> 01:28:47,334
I came back
2784
01:28:45,667 --> 01:28:49,000
to get my results.
2785
01:28:47,335 --> 01:28:49,000
from an appointment
2786
01:28:49,083 --> 01:28:51,334
- He was laying in the bed
- When I walked in,
2787
01:28:51,417 --> 01:28:52,855
And then he looked at me
2788
01:28:52,856 --> 01:28:54,292
and then he said,
2789
01:28:54,375 --> 01:28:55,834
"You got it, right?"
2790
01:28:55,918 --> 01:28:57,355
And I said, "No, no, no, no."
2791
01:28:57,356 --> 01:28:58,792
I said, "I'm negative."
2792
01:28:58,876 --> 01:29:01,167
- And I remember, he got
- Really upset and he goes,
2793
01:29:01,250 --> 01:29:03,167
- "Then why do I have it?
- Why do I have it?"
2794
01:29:03,250 --> 01:29:05,000
- And he started, like,
- Pounding the bed.
2795
01:29:11,292 --> 01:29:12,938
AIDS at the time
2796
01:29:11,292 --> 01:29:14,584
a death sentence, right?
2797
01:29:12,939 --> 01:29:14,584
was pretty much
2798
01:29:14,667 --> 01:29:16,147
And he, on the one
2799
01:29:16,148 --> 01:29:17,626
hand was upset,
2800
01:29:17,709 --> 01:29:19,855
but on the other hand,
2801
01:29:17,709 --> 01:29:22,000
by the demand for his work.
2802
01:29:19,856 --> 01:29:22,000
he was fascinated
2803
01:29:22,083 --> 01:29:23,313
Walls:
2804
01:29:23,314 --> 01:29:24,542
Like, his market took off
2805
01:29:24,626 --> 01:29:26,084
when people heard
2806
01:29:26,085 --> 01:29:27,542
that he was about to die.
2807
01:29:27,626 --> 01:29:29,834
It really took off.
2808
01:29:29,918 --> 01:29:31,626
- Baril:
- We were very busy.
2809
01:29:31,709 --> 01:29:33,293
We didn't stop working,
2810
01:29:33,294 --> 01:29:34,876
and he didn't stop shooting
2811
01:29:34,959 --> 01:29:37,209
- until he physically
- Couldn't get out of bed.
2812
01:29:37,292 --> 01:29:39,042
- He's like,
- "What am I shooting next?
2813
01:29:39,125 --> 01:29:40,542
"Get me some flowers.
2814
01:29:40,543 --> 01:29:41,959
Let's do that."
2815
01:29:42,042 --> 01:29:43,709
You know, and it...
2816
01:29:42,042 --> 01:29:45,375
the statues got done,
2817
01:29:43,710 --> 01:29:45,375
The flowers got done,
2818
01:29:45,459 --> 01:29:46,730
the commissioned
2819
01:29:46,731 --> 01:29:48,000
portraits got done.
2820
01:29:48,083 --> 01:29:49,104
Mapplethorpe:
2821
01:29:48,083 --> 01:29:50,125
photograph flowers,
2822
01:29:49,105 --> 01:29:50,125
One day I'll
2823
01:29:50,209 --> 01:29:51,959
- the next day
- I'll do some fashion work,
2824
01:29:52,042 --> 01:29:53,771
The next day I'll do some
2825
01:29:52,042 --> 01:29:55,500
I'll do a portrait.
2826
01:29:53,772 --> 01:29:55,500
pornography, and the next day,
2827
01:29:55,584 --> 01:29:57,709
You know, I don't really care.
2828
01:29:59,125 --> 01:30:00,480
Suzanne:
2829
01:29:59,125 --> 01:30:01,834
be keeping a journal.
2830
01:30:00,481 --> 01:30:01,834
I sort of thought I should
2831
01:30:01,918 --> 01:30:03,459
"I did watch him shoot today.
2832
01:30:03,542 --> 01:30:05,771
"It's so amazing to see
2833
01:30:03,542 --> 01:30:08,000
to do the pictures.
2834
01:30:05,772 --> 01:30:08,000
how he musters the energy
2835
01:30:08,083 --> 01:30:09,167
"It absolutely
2836
01:30:09,168 --> 01:30:10,250
keeps him going.
2837
01:30:10,334 --> 01:30:13,375
"And the money. Funny money."
2838
01:30:13,459 --> 01:30:15,751
Natrele Plus. Long-lasting
2839
01:30:15,752 --> 01:30:18,042
Natrele protection.
2840
01:30:18,125 --> 01:30:20,751
- He was never interested
- In talking about his health.
2841
01:30:20,834 --> 01:30:22,522
All he wanted to talk about
2842
01:30:20,834 --> 01:30:24,209
looking at his work,
2843
01:30:22,523 --> 01:30:24,209
was sales and who was
2844
01:30:24,292 --> 01:30:26,500
- and when are we gonna have
- A million-dollar a month.
2845
01:30:26,584 --> 01:30:28,584
He was interested in making
2846
01:30:28,585 --> 01:30:30,584
as much money as possible.
2847
01:30:30,667 --> 01:30:32,501
And he resented the fact
2848
01:30:30,667 --> 01:30:34,334
like Brice Marden,
2849
01:30:32,502 --> 01:30:34,334
that his contemporaries',
2850
01:30:34,417 --> 01:30:36,001
works started selling
2851
01:30:34,417 --> 01:30:37,584
thousand dollars.
2852
01:30:36,002 --> 01:30:37,584
for several hundred
2853
01:30:37,667 --> 01:30:39,459
And Robert's works
2854
01:30:39,460 --> 01:30:41,250
were selling for $1,100.
2855
01:30:43,083 --> 01:30:45,604
Mapplethorpe, had a sort of
2856
01:30:43,083 --> 01:30:48,125
relationship with Warhol.
2857
01:30:45,605 --> 01:30:48,125
jealous or competitive
2858
01:30:49,834 --> 01:30:52,125
He would say to me weekly,
2859
01:30:52,209 --> 01:30:54,751
"If I die, will I have died
2860
01:30:52,209 --> 01:30:57,292
as Andy Warhol had?"
2861
01:30:54,752 --> 01:30:57,292
with as much money
2862
01:30:57,375 --> 01:30:58,980
And I'd say,
2863
01:30:58,981 --> 01:31:00,584
"No. Not nearly, not nearly."
2864
01:31:00,667 --> 01:31:03,272
I remember him saying to me
2865
01:31:00,667 --> 01:31:05,876
about being ill
2866
01:31:03,273 --> 01:31:05,876
once, how frustrated he was
2867
01:31:05,959 --> 01:31:07,397
because he was getting
2868
01:31:07,398 --> 01:31:08,834
all this money now,
2869
01:31:08,918 --> 01:31:10,667
and he actually said,
2870
01:31:10,751 --> 01:31:12,375
"I won't be able to enjoy it."
2871
01:31:12,459 --> 01:31:14,751
He was not very interested
2872
01:31:14,752 --> 01:31:17,042
in leaving money to people.
2873
01:31:17,125 --> 01:31:18,980
So the foundation idea
2874
01:31:18,981 --> 01:31:20,834
really began to appeal to him
2875
01:31:20,918 --> 01:31:23,189
because his money,
2876
01:31:20,918 --> 01:31:25,459
his art collection
2877
01:31:23,190 --> 01:31:25,459
his assets, his real estate,
2878
01:31:25,542 --> 01:31:27,083
would support his foundation.
2879
01:31:27,167 --> 01:31:28,980
So, it would
2880
01:31:28,981 --> 01:31:30,792
automatically promote him.
2881
01:31:33,125 --> 01:31:34,313
Edward:
2882
01:31:33,125 --> 01:31:35,500
for his birthday,
2883
01:31:34,314 --> 01:31:35,500
Robert sent for me
2884
01:31:35,584 --> 01:31:37,000
his 40th birthday party,
2885
01:31:37,083 --> 01:31:39,313
That's when I was like,
2886
01:31:39,314 --> 01:31:41,542
"Whoa. This is not good."
2887
01:31:43,751 --> 01:31:45,772
Robert Mapplethorpe's
2888
01:31:45,773 --> 01:31:47,792
way to interpret me
2889
01:31:47,876 --> 01:31:49,959
was totally different than
2890
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:52,042
any other photographer.
2891
01:31:54,125 --> 01:31:55,604
He wanted my hair back,
2892
01:31:55,605 --> 01:31:57,083
so that was unusual to me.
2893
01:31:57,167 --> 01:31:58,709
Everybody has always wanted me
2894
01:31:58,710 --> 01:32:00,250
to do a hairdo.
2895
01:32:00,334 --> 01:32:02,501
He wanted a very,
2896
01:32:02,502 --> 01:32:04,667
very natural feel.
2897
01:32:04,751 --> 01:32:05,814
I look like an angel
2898
01:32:05,815 --> 01:32:06,876
on that picture.
2899
01:32:06,959 --> 01:32:08,584
So, how can I not be pleased?
2900
01:32:08,667 --> 01:32:12,188
He was the first photographer
2901
01:32:08,667 --> 01:32:15,709
in profile.
2902
01:32:12,189 --> 01:32:15,709
to photograph me completely
2903
01:32:15,792 --> 01:32:17,230
It's never...
2904
01:32:17,231 --> 01:32:18,667
He was the only one.
2905
01:32:20,334 --> 01:32:22,917
The profile was just so much
2906
01:32:22,918 --> 01:32:25,500
more soul-baring.
2907
01:32:25,584 --> 01:32:27,375
I got to sort of study him.
2908
01:32:27,459 --> 01:32:29,230
He didn't seem happy.
2909
01:32:29,231 --> 01:32:31,000
Everything seemed precious,
2910
01:32:31,083 --> 01:32:33,209
and I think there was no sense
2911
01:32:31,083 --> 01:32:35,334
or be frivolous.
2912
01:32:33,210 --> 01:32:35,334
of wanting to waste time
2913
01:32:35,417 --> 01:32:37,417
In German, you say...
2914
01:32:37,418 --> 01:32:39,417
There is this word, getrieben,
2915
01:32:39,500 --> 01:32:42,084
which means as if something
2916
01:32:42,085 --> 01:32:44,667
is chasing you constantly.
2917
01:32:47,250 --> 01:32:49,417
I used to go and visit him.
2918
01:32:47,250 --> 01:32:51,584
he was dying,
2919
01:32:49,418 --> 01:32:51,584
We both sense that
2920
01:32:51,667 --> 01:32:53,500
but we didn't talk about it.
2921
01:32:53,584 --> 01:32:54,772
And he had that very
2922
01:32:54,773 --> 01:32:55,959
sad expression,
2923
01:32:56,042 --> 01:32:58,083
- because
- He didn't want to leave.
2924
01:32:58,167 --> 01:33:00,209
He wanted to stay, you know?
2925
01:33:00,292 --> 01:33:02,626
And one day he said,
2926
01:33:02,709 --> 01:33:04,250
- "I need to take
- A photograph of you
2927
01:33:04,334 --> 01:33:05,980
"and you need this one
2928
01:33:04,334 --> 01:33:07,626
to be the last one,"
2929
01:33:05,981 --> 01:33:07,626
because this is going
2930
01:33:07,709 --> 01:33:09,063
is what he say.
2931
01:33:09,064 --> 01:33:10,417
I say, "Don't be silly."
2932
01:33:11,959 --> 01:33:13,626
And it was.
2933
01:33:17,042 --> 01:33:18,626
- Edward:
- It was just sort of
2934
01:33:18,709 --> 01:33:20,834
- Business as usual until
- Things progressed,
2935
01:33:20,918 --> 01:33:22,209
And he was having a harder
2936
01:33:20,918 --> 01:33:23,500
out of his seat and...
2937
01:33:22,210 --> 01:33:23,500
and harder time getting
2938
01:33:23,584 --> 01:33:25,375
- And he had a horrible,
- Horrible cough,
2939
01:33:25,459 --> 01:33:27,959
Which I guess was typical.
2940
01:33:28,042 --> 01:33:29,646
Six o'clock would roll around
2941
01:33:29,647 --> 01:33:31,250
and then he'd sort of be like,
2942
01:33:31,334 --> 01:33:32,397
"Can you come
2943
01:33:32,398 --> 01:33:33,459
keep me company?"
2944
01:33:33,542 --> 01:33:35,480
It was this little boy.
2945
01:33:35,481 --> 01:33:37,417
"Don't leave. Stay with me."
2946
01:33:37,500 --> 01:33:39,125
Yeah, little baby voice.
2947
01:33:39,209 --> 01:33:41,064
Edward:
2948
01:33:39,209 --> 01:33:42,918
not feeling particularly well,
2949
01:33:41,065 --> 01:33:42,918
Robert was in his bedroom,
2950
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:44,834
and he's like,
2951
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:46,667
"I'd like to do a picture
2952
01:33:44,835 --> 01:33:46,667
you know, he's like,
2953
01:33:46,751 --> 01:33:48,834
- "with my hand
- Holding the skull cane."
2954
01:33:48,918 --> 01:33:50,897
And I said to Brian,
2955
01:33:48,918 --> 01:33:52,876
to be a self-portrait."
2956
01:33:50,898 --> 01:33:52,876
I said, "Listen, this has got
2957
01:33:52,959 --> 01:33:55,021
And it wasn't often
2958
01:33:52,959 --> 01:33:57,083
his own picture,
2959
01:33:55,022 --> 01:33:57,083
that he'd want to take
2960
01:33:57,167 --> 01:33:58,584
but he had been trying.
2961
01:33:58,667 --> 01:34:00,188
I took the skull cane
2962
01:34:00,189 --> 01:34:01,709
and I held it like this,
2963
01:34:01,792 --> 01:34:03,209
and I said, "Do a Polaroid."
2964
01:34:03,292 --> 01:34:05,000
(camera whirs)
2965
01:34:05,083 --> 01:34:07,584
- I brought it to Robert, he was
- Like, "Wow. That's good."
2966
01:34:07,667 --> 01:34:09,375
His knee started to hurt,
2967
01:34:09,459 --> 01:34:10,897
so we put a chair
2968
01:34:10,898 --> 01:34:12,334
in for him to sit on.
2969
01:34:15,459 --> 01:34:16,959
That's the classic
2970
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:18,459
masterpiece picture.
2971
01:34:18,542 --> 01:34:20,334
It's a tremendous photograph,
2972
01:34:20,417 --> 01:34:21,771
one of the greatest
2973
01:34:21,772 --> 01:34:23,125
self-portraits of all time.
2974
01:34:31,375 --> 01:34:33,918
- Man:
- It's 2:38 here in the WNBC.
2975
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:36,250
- Weather: cloudy, breezy,
- Chance of showers
2976
01:34:36,334 --> 01:34:38,214
- And thunderstorms right
- Through the evening.
2977
01:34:38,292 --> 01:34:40,105
The low tonight in the low
2978
01:34:40,106 --> 01:34:41,918
60s, right now, 74 degrees.
2979
01:35:07,042 --> 01:35:08,876
Man:
2980
01:35:07,042 --> 01:35:10,709
electric that day.
2981
01:35:08,877 --> 01:35:10,709
There was something
2982
01:35:10,792 --> 01:35:12,876
It wasn't just an opening.
2983
01:35:12,959 --> 01:35:15,751
It was a...
2984
01:35:15,834 --> 01:35:17,793
a memorial
2985
01:35:17,794 --> 01:35:19,751
with a living corpse.
2986
01:35:21,292 --> 01:35:23,018
- Colacello: - Your heart
- Just went out to him
2987
01:35:23,042 --> 01:35:24,334
Because here he was
2988
01:35:23,042 --> 01:35:25,626
that he dreamed of
2989
01:35:24,335 --> 01:35:25,626
having the success
2990
01:35:25,709 --> 01:35:27,438
from those days in
2991
01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:29,167
coffee shops in the Village,
2992
01:35:29,250 --> 01:35:31,459
and, you know,
2993
01:35:31,460 --> 01:35:33,667
you could tell he was dying.
2994
01:35:37,500 --> 01:35:39,292
Not too much.
2995
01:35:39,375 --> 01:35:41,355
This is... someone took
2996
01:35:41,356 --> 01:35:43,334
this picture of me
2997
01:35:43,417 --> 01:35:45,417
taking a picture of him.
2998
01:35:45,500 --> 01:35:46,980
He knew what
2999
01:35:46,981 --> 01:35:48,459
I was doing there.
3000
01:35:49,792 --> 01:35:51,626
- I think he understood
- The whole thing.
3001
01:35:51,709 --> 01:35:53,126
He didn't like it,
3002
01:35:53,127 --> 01:35:54,542
but he understood it.
3003
01:35:54,626 --> 01:35:56,126
I think that was
3004
01:35:56,127 --> 01:35:57,626
his proudest day, I really do.
3005
01:35:57,709 --> 01:35:59,459
He looked like
3006
01:35:59,460 --> 01:36:01,209
the king sitting there.
3007
01:36:05,334 --> 01:36:08,105
It had everything
3008
01:36:08,106 --> 01:36:10,876
from flowers to fist-fucking.
3009
01:36:10,959 --> 01:36:12,480
And I had to go around
3010
01:36:10,959 --> 01:36:14,000
in a wheelchair.
3011
01:36:12,481 --> 01:36:14,000
the room with my mother
3012
01:36:17,083 --> 01:36:18,292
Wow, yeah.
3013
01:36:18,375 --> 01:36:20,125
- When I saw
- The one with the whip,
3014
01:36:20,209 --> 01:36:21,959
I said, "Oh, my God."
3015
01:36:22,042 --> 01:36:23,542
And I ran
3016
01:36:23,543 --> 01:36:25,042
and go to my kids and...
3017
01:36:25,125 --> 01:36:27,001
"That's him?
3018
01:36:27,002 --> 01:36:28,876
It was a self-portrait?"
3019
01:36:28,959 --> 01:36:30,209
Edward:
3020
01:36:30,210 --> 01:36:31,459
He loved attention,
3021
01:36:31,542 --> 01:36:33,584
even though
3022
01:36:31,542 --> 01:36:35,626
that he was a dying man,
3023
01:36:33,585 --> 01:36:35,626
it had to do with the fact
3024
01:36:35,709 --> 01:36:37,000
it didn't matter.
3025
01:36:37,083 --> 01:36:39,167
Becker:
3026
01:36:37,083 --> 01:36:41,250
I mean it stunned people.
3027
01:36:39,168 --> 01:36:41,250
It was one picture.
3028
01:36:41,334 --> 01:36:44,022
We all sort of were under
3029
01:36:41,334 --> 01:36:46,709
be this glorious article,
3030
01:36:44,023 --> 01:36:46,709
the impression it was gonna
3031
01:36:46,792 --> 01:36:48,501
when in fact,
3032
01:36:46,792 --> 01:36:50,209
Yeah.
3033
01:36:48,502 --> 01:36:50,209
that was sad.
3034
01:36:50,292 --> 01:36:51,584
I'm sure he saw
3035
01:36:50,292 --> 01:36:52,876
Yeah.
3036
01:36:51,585 --> 01:36:52,876
his own mortality...
3037
01:36:52,959 --> 01:36:53,959
Very clearly
3038
01:36:53,960 --> 01:36:54,960
at that moment.
3039
01:36:55,042 --> 01:36:57,438
His image out there,
3040
01:36:55,042 --> 01:36:59,834
elegant creature,
3041
01:36:57,439 --> 01:36:59,834
this handsome, vain,
3042
01:36:59,918 --> 01:37:03,084
and people really
3043
01:37:03,085 --> 01:37:06,250
were shocked.
3044
01:37:06,334 --> 01:37:08,334
I mean, come on, it was like,
3045
01:37:08,335 --> 01:37:10,334
he was alive.
3046
01:37:20,125 --> 01:37:21,376
Woman:
3047
01:37:20,125 --> 01:37:22,626
Mapplethorpe has been
3048
01:37:21,377 --> 01:37:22,626
Working with Robert
3049
01:37:22,709 --> 01:37:24,292
my most enlightening
3050
01:37:24,375 --> 01:37:25,792
and rewarding curatorial
3051
01:37:25,793 --> 01:37:27,209
experience.
3052
01:37:27,292 --> 01:37:29,813
I felt that Robert
3053
01:37:27,292 --> 01:37:32,334
was so important.
3054
01:37:29,814 --> 01:37:32,334
Mapplethorpe's work
3055
01:37:32,417 --> 01:37:34,605
So I went to New York
3056
01:37:34,606 --> 01:37:36,792
and visited him at his studio.
3057
01:37:36,876 --> 01:37:38,397
We started to talk.
3058
01:37:38,398 --> 01:37:39,918
He was very easy to talk to.
3059
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:42,355
I felt after five minutes
3060
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:44,709
a long time.
3061
01:37:42,356 --> 01:37:44,709
that I had known him
3062
01:37:44,792 --> 01:37:46,167
Mapplethorpe:
3063
01:37:44,792 --> 01:37:47,542
the X, Y, Z portfolios?
3064
01:37:46,168 --> 01:37:47,542
Have you ever seen
3065
01:37:47,626 --> 01:37:50,230
There's an X portfolio
3066
01:37:47,626 --> 01:37:52,834
there's 13 of them,
3067
01:37:50,231 --> 01:37:52,834
which is sex pictures,
3068
01:37:52,918 --> 01:37:54,230
and then there's Y
3069
01:37:54,231 --> 01:37:55,542
which is flowers,
3070
01:37:55,626 --> 01:37:57,834
and the Z which is blacks.
3071
01:37:57,918 --> 01:38:00,689
He was particularly interested
3072
01:38:00,690 --> 01:38:03,459
in showing the X, Y, Z series,
3073
01:38:03,542 --> 01:38:05,459
which had not been shown
3074
01:38:05,460 --> 01:38:07,375
before in its entirety.
3075
01:38:07,459 --> 01:38:08,543
Mapplethorpe:
3076
01:38:07,459 --> 01:38:09,626
to have a wall
3077
01:38:08,544 --> 01:38:09,626
It may be interesting
3078
01:38:09,709 --> 01:38:10,980
where you have
3079
01:38:10,981 --> 01:38:12,250
a row of X, Y, and Z
3080
01:38:12,334 --> 01:38:13,876
on one mass, sort of,
3081
01:38:13,877 --> 01:38:15,417
in three rows of something.
3082
01:38:15,500 --> 01:38:16,792
Kardon:
3083
01:38:15,500 --> 01:38:18,083
of displaying them
3084
01:38:16,793 --> 01:38:18,083
We devised a way
3085
01:38:18,167 --> 01:38:21,292
in a case that would
3086
01:38:18,167 --> 01:38:24,417
could not see into it,
3087
01:38:21,293 --> 01:38:24,417
be so high that a child
3088
01:38:24,500 --> 01:38:26,042
but an adult could
3089
01:38:26,043 --> 01:38:27,584
look down upon it.
3090
01:38:27,667 --> 01:38:29,230
I remember showing my husband
3091
01:38:29,231 --> 01:38:30,792
some of the pictures
3092
01:38:30,876 --> 01:38:33,918
before the exhibition opened.
3093
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:35,230
He said, "Janet, do you
3094
01:38:35,231 --> 01:38:36,459
know what you're doing?"
3095
01:38:36,542 --> 01:38:38,813
But I didn't listen to him.
3096
01:38:38,814 --> 01:38:41,083
Maybe I was crazy.
3097
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:47,000
(lively chattering)
3098
01:38:47,083 --> 01:38:48,334
Hi, Robert!
3099
01:38:48,417 --> 01:38:49,626
Here we are.
3100
01:38:49,627 --> 01:38:50,834
You're with us.
3101
01:38:50,918 --> 01:38:52,272
You're with us
3102
01:38:52,273 --> 01:38:53,626
and we're with you.
3103
01:38:55,459 --> 01:38:58,917
I think you can tell
3104
01:38:55,459 --> 01:39:02,375
by the sound in the gallery.
3105
01:38:58,918 --> 01:39:02,375
whether a show is successful
3106
01:39:02,459 --> 01:39:05,459
If people are talking a lot,
3107
01:39:02,459 --> 01:39:08,459
just doesn't have it.
3108
01:39:05,460 --> 01:39:08,459
you know, somehow the show
3109
01:39:10,751 --> 01:39:13,835
In the Mapplethorpe show,
3110
01:39:13,836 --> 01:39:16,918
there was silence.
3111
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:19,000
You could hear a pin drop.
3112
01:39:39,042 --> 01:39:40,667
Edward:
3113
01:39:39,042 --> 01:39:42,292
a terrible night for Robert
3114
01:39:40,668 --> 01:39:42,292
This one time, it was
3115
01:39:42,375 --> 01:39:44,167
and he was almost
3116
01:39:44,168 --> 01:39:45,959
hallucinating a bit
3117
01:39:46,042 --> 01:39:48,334
- and he ended up pulling out
- Some of the IVs,
3118
01:39:48,417 --> 01:39:50,209
So I had blood dripping
3119
01:39:50,210 --> 01:39:52,000
out of his arm, and IVs,
3120
01:39:52,083 --> 01:39:53,542
and I had to... he... I know
3121
01:39:53,543 --> 01:39:55,000
I had to clean him up.
3122
01:39:55,083 --> 01:39:57,146
He'd shat in the bed,
3123
01:39:57,147 --> 01:39:59,209
and I'm like, "Oh, my God."
3124
01:39:59,292 --> 01:40:01,396
That night, Robert looked
3125
01:40:01,397 --> 01:40:03,500
at me teary-eyed, crying,
3126
01:40:03,584 --> 01:40:04,938
and said, "Oh, my God."
3127
01:40:04,939 --> 01:40:06,292
He's like, "I'm dying.
3128
01:40:09,500 --> 01:40:11,792
"I'm dying."
3129
01:40:11,793 --> 01:40:14,083
And I had to say, "Yeah."
3130
01:40:18,834 --> 01:40:20,667
What could you...
3131
01:40:20,668 --> 01:40:22,500
I couldn't... I mean, "Yes."
3132
01:40:27,709 --> 01:40:30,918
♪ ♪
3133
01:40:32,584 --> 01:40:34,647
Robert gave a going-away
3134
01:40:34,648 --> 01:40:36,709
party for himself,
3135
01:40:36,792 --> 01:40:38,730
a lavish cocktail party
3136
01:40:38,731 --> 01:40:40,667
at his loft.
3137
01:40:40,751 --> 01:40:42,043
Waiters walking
3138
01:40:42,044 --> 01:40:43,334
around with silver trays
3139
01:40:43,417 --> 01:40:46,188
with a little tiny Bellini
3140
01:40:46,189 --> 01:40:48,959
and caviar and champagne.
3141
01:40:49,042 --> 01:40:51,792
It was very elegant.
3142
01:40:51,876 --> 01:40:54,459
(Mapplethorpe's voice)
3143
01:41:02,167 --> 01:41:03,980
Croland:
3144
01:41:02,167 --> 01:41:05,792
in the middle of the room.
3145
01:41:03,981 --> 01:41:05,792
And Robert was sitting
3146
01:41:05,876 --> 01:41:07,418
I walked up to him
3147
01:41:07,419 --> 01:41:08,959
and kneeled down at his feet
3148
01:41:09,042 --> 01:41:11,083
- and came
- Face-to-face with him.
3149
01:41:11,167 --> 01:41:12,876
- He said,
- "You still look so beautiful."
3150
01:41:12,959 --> 01:41:15,083
And I said, "Thank you."
3151
01:41:17,709 --> 01:41:18,834
I said, "What do you
3152
01:41:18,835 --> 01:41:19,959
want me to do?"
3153
01:41:20,042 --> 01:41:21,813
He said, "I want you
3154
01:41:21,814 --> 01:41:23,584
to tell her everything.
3155
01:41:23,667 --> 01:41:25,751
Keep me alive."
3156
01:41:32,834 --> 01:41:34,209
Suzanne:
3157
01:41:32,834 --> 01:41:35,584
Well, this is it.
3158
01:41:34,210 --> 01:41:35,584
"March 8th.
3159
01:41:35,667 --> 01:41:36,834
"The last two days
3160
01:41:36,835 --> 01:41:38,000
have been hell.
3161
01:41:38,083 --> 01:41:40,667
- "The funny part is not knowing
- How to say goodbye.
3162
01:41:40,751 --> 01:41:42,876
"Letting go.
3163
01:41:42,877 --> 01:41:45,000
Are words enough?"
3164
01:41:45,083 --> 01:41:46,375
I was just like,
3165
01:41:46,376 --> 01:41:47,667
"Come on, Robert."
3166
01:41:47,751 --> 01:41:49,417
- Just like have
- A conversation with me
3167
01:41:49,500 --> 01:41:51,351
- And just say, "You know what,
- I'm proud of you,
3168
01:41:51,375 --> 01:41:53,292
And just keep it going,
3169
01:41:53,293 --> 01:41:55,209
and just do good work."
3170
01:41:55,292 --> 01:41:58,709
And... never got it.
3171
01:41:58,792 --> 01:42:01,167
Never got it.
3172
01:42:02,751 --> 01:42:05,292
(woman speaking)
3173
01:42:05,375 --> 01:42:06,792
Mapplethorpe:
3174
01:42:05,375 --> 01:42:08,209
and some days, no.
3175
01:42:06,793 --> 01:42:08,209
Some days, yes,
3176
01:42:08,292 --> 01:42:10,125
You know, on a daily basis,
3177
01:42:10,209 --> 01:42:11,626
I would say in any given day,
3178
01:42:11,627 --> 01:42:13,042
I'm happy part of the time
3179
01:42:13,125 --> 01:42:14,709
and not the rest, you know.
3180
01:42:14,792 --> 01:42:16,646
I think I'm a perfectionist
3181
01:42:14,792 --> 01:42:18,500
to be happy
3182
01:42:16,647 --> 01:42:18,500
and I think it's hard
3183
01:42:18,584 --> 01:42:19,584
if you like things
3184
01:42:19,585 --> 01:42:20,585
to be perfect
3185
01:42:20,667 --> 01:42:21,730
because things
3186
01:42:21,731 --> 01:42:22,792
are not perfect.
3187
01:42:36,042 --> 01:42:38,250
♪ ♪
3188
01:42:38,334 --> 01:42:40,852
- Helms: I don't know whether - The
television cameras - Can see it or not.
3189
01:42:40,876 --> 01:42:43,125
- I'm gonna be fast enough
- With it that they can't.
3190
01:42:43,209 --> 01:42:45,064
But I want senators to come
3191
01:42:43,209 --> 01:42:46,918
any doubt
3192
01:42:45,065 --> 01:42:46,918
over here, if they have
3193
01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:48,792
and look at the pictures.
3194
01:42:48,876 --> 01:42:50,560
- Protesters (chanting):
- Keep your hands off!
3195
01:42:50,584 --> 01:42:51,605
Helms:
3196
01:42:50,584 --> 01:42:52,626
acknowledge that it's art.
3197
01:42:51,606 --> 01:42:52,626
I don't even
3198
01:42:52,709 --> 01:42:53,814
Protesters:
3199
01:42:52,709 --> 01:42:54,918
Get your hands off!
3200
01:42:53,815 --> 01:42:54,918
Keep your hands off!
3201
01:42:55,000 --> 01:42:56,375
- Helms:
- I don't even acknowledge
3202
01:42:56,459 --> 01:42:58,219
- That the fellow who did it
- Was an artist.
3203
01:42:58,250 --> 01:42:59,500
I think he was a jerk.
3204
01:42:59,584 --> 01:43:01,209
Protesters:
3205
01:42:59,584 --> 01:43:02,834
Get your hands off!
3206
01:43:01,210 --> 01:43:02,834
Keep your hands off!
3207
01:43:02,918 --> 01:43:04,251
Keep your hands off!
3208
01:43:04,252 --> 01:43:05,584
Keep your hands off!
3209
01:43:05,667 --> 01:43:07,084
Keep your hands off!
3210
01:43:07,085 --> 01:43:08,500
Keep your hands off!
3211
01:43:08,584 --> 01:43:09,751
Woman:
3212
01:43:08,584 --> 01:43:10,918
for two o'clock only.
3213
01:43:09,752 --> 01:43:10,918
This line is
3214
01:43:11,000 --> 01:43:12,542
You need a pass to get in
3215
01:43:12,543 --> 01:43:14,083
to see the exhibition.
3216
01:43:25,792 --> 01:43:27,584
- Man:
- It happened.
3217
01:43:27,667 --> 01:43:29,293
What you're watching now
3218
01:43:27,667 --> 01:43:30,918
they made their move today
3219
01:43:29,294 --> 01:43:30,918
is the Cincinnati Police as
3220
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:32,600
- against The Contemporary
- Arts Center.
3221
01:43:32,626 --> 01:43:33,935
- Woman:
- They temporarily closed
3222
01:43:33,959 --> 01:43:36,000
- The controversial
- Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit
3223
01:43:36,083 --> 01:43:38,583
That resulted in charges today
3224
01:43:36,083 --> 01:43:41,083
Center and its director.
3225
01:43:38,584 --> 01:43:41,083
against The Contemporary Arts
3226
01:43:41,167 --> 01:43:42,563
It's an important exhibition.
3227
01:43:42,564 --> 01:43:43,959
It's important for this city
3228
01:43:44,042 --> 01:43:45,542
that it be seen here.
3229
01:43:45,626 --> 01:43:48,918
(angry shouting)
3230
01:43:49,000 --> 01:43:50,625
Man:
3231
01:43:49,000 --> 01:43:52,250
a bulletproof vest.
3232
01:43:50,626 --> 01:43:52,250
It was suggested that I wear
3233
01:43:52,334 --> 01:43:54,792
- There would be calls to
- The home or calls to my office
3234
01:43:54,876 --> 01:43:56,636
- Saying, "We're gonna
- Kill your children."
3235
01:44:34,751 --> 01:44:36,643
- Dan Rather: - The art gallery
- And its director
3236
01:44:36,667 --> 01:44:38,709
Are charged with obscenity
3237
01:44:36,667 --> 01:44:40,751
the late Robert Mapplethorpe.
3238
01:44:38,710 --> 01:44:40,751
for exhibiting photographs by
3239
01:44:43,500 --> 01:44:44,918
(gavel banging)
3240
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:47,393
- Reporter: - The jury took about two hours
- To come up with its decision.
3241
01:44:47,417 --> 01:44:48,771
(man reading)
3242
01:44:47,417 --> 01:44:50,125
find the defendant not guilty
3243
01:44:48,772 --> 01:44:50,125
We, the jury in this case,
3244
01:44:50,209 --> 01:44:51,667
of pandering obscenity.
3245
01:44:51,668 --> 01:44:53,125
(crowd cheering)
3246
01:44:53,209 --> 01:44:54,334
Judge:
3247
01:44:54,335 --> 01:44:55,459
Order! Order!
3248
01:44:55,542 --> 01:44:57,459
(gavel banging)
3249
01:45:00,959 --> 01:45:03,667
(gavel banging)
3250
01:45:03,751 --> 01:45:05,168
Auctioneer:
3251
01:45:03,751 --> 01:45:06,584
Mapplethorpe Flag,
3252
01:45:05,169 --> 01:45:06,584
Next up is the Robert
3253
01:45:06,667 --> 01:45:08,313
the great "Star-Spangled
3254
01:45:08,314 --> 01:45:09,959
Banner," gelatin silver print,
3255
01:45:10,042 --> 01:45:11,501
for $48,000.
3256
01:45:11,502 --> 01:45:12,959
Now goes to 48,000,
3257
01:45:13,042 --> 01:45:14,938
48,000, 50, 55,000,
3258
01:45:14,939 --> 01:45:16,834
60, 65,000. Thank you, ma'am.
3259
01:45:16,918 --> 01:45:18,667
- He was always
- Giving me his work.
3260
01:45:18,751 --> 01:45:20,459
$70,000 with Caroline.
3261
01:45:20,542 --> 01:45:22,126
I had, at least, half a dozen
3262
01:45:22,127 --> 01:45:23,709
photographs and a collage.
3263
01:45:23,792 --> 01:45:25,250
$70,000.
3264
01:45:25,334 --> 01:45:27,101
- Don't ask me what
- I did with this, please,
3265
01:45:27,125 --> 01:45:29,625
Because if I kept it,
3266
01:45:27,125 --> 01:45:32,125
I'd be in my villa in Tuscany.
3267
01:45:29,626 --> 01:45:32,125
I wouldn't be here.
3268
01:45:32,209 --> 01:45:33,522
I can't discuss,
3269
01:45:33,523 --> 01:45:34,834
too upsetting.
3270
01:45:34,918 --> 01:45:36,375
Sold!
3271
01:45:36,459 --> 01:45:37,459
I threw it away.
3272
01:45:37,542 --> 01:45:38,667
Sold!
3273
01:45:38,751 --> 01:45:39,751
When I moved.
3274
01:45:39,792 --> 01:45:40,918
Sold!
3275
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:42,292
Lebowitz:
3276
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:43,584
to an art dealer.
3277
01:45:42,293 --> 01:45:43,584
I told this once
3278
01:45:43,667 --> 01:45:45,876
- And he said, "I can't believe
- You didn't know
3279
01:45:45,959 --> 01:45:48,188
"that someone as ambitious as
3280
01:45:45,959 --> 01:45:50,417
wouldn't become famous."
3281
01:45:48,189 --> 01:45:50,417
Robert... as clearly ambitious,
3282
01:45:50,500 --> 01:45:51,584
And I said, "No one
3283
01:45:51,585 --> 01:45:52,667
could have imagined
3284
01:45:52,751 --> 01:45:54,293
"that photographs would
3285
01:45:54,294 --> 01:45:55,834
be so valuable financially."
3286
01:45:55,918 --> 01:45:57,168
Because they weren't.
3287
01:45:57,169 --> 01:45:58,417
No photographs were.
3288
01:45:58,500 --> 01:46:00,105
It wasn't just
3289
01:45:58,500 --> 01:46:01,709
No one could imagine it.
3290
01:46:00,106 --> 01:46:01,709
that I couldn't imagine it.
3291
01:46:06,918 --> 01:46:10,397
Whatever it took
3292
01:46:10,398 --> 01:46:13,876
to become Robert Mapplethorpe
3293
01:46:13,959 --> 01:46:16,042
is what it was gonna take
3294
01:46:16,125 --> 01:46:18,459
and it took
3295
01:46:18,460 --> 01:46:20,792
his life to do it...
3296
01:46:23,709 --> 01:46:25,459
Literally.
3297
01:46:29,292 --> 01:46:32,125
♪ ♪
3298
01:46:45,375 --> 01:46:48,542
♪ ♪
3299
01:47:08,209 --> 01:47:10,476
- Man: - Mapplethorpe by himself,
- The name is really great.
3300
01:47:10,500 --> 01:47:13,459
It's like Titian or Piranesi.
3301
01:47:13,542 --> 01:47:14,751
Just the name,
3302
01:47:14,752 --> 01:47:15,959
that's all you need
3303
01:47:16,042 --> 01:47:17,876
- is the last name
- To recognize the artist.
3304
01:47:17,959 --> 01:47:19,709
It's so clear and simple.
3305
01:47:19,792 --> 01:47:21,584
What if you stacked
3306
01:47:21,585 --> 01:47:23,375
three images into the...
3307
01:47:23,459 --> 01:47:24,855
We can't have nudity
3308
01:47:23,459 --> 01:47:26,250
'cause the city regulations.
3309
01:47:24,856 --> 01:47:26,250
on the street banners
3310
01:47:26,334 --> 01:47:28,147
So that's one point
3311
01:47:26,334 --> 01:47:29,959
second is the color.
3312
01:47:28,148 --> 01:47:29,959
of discussion,
3313
01:47:30,042 --> 01:47:31,959
This is a mock-up
3314
01:47:30,042 --> 01:47:33,876
for our opening reception.
3315
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:33,876
of the invitation
3316
01:47:33,959 --> 01:47:35,647
His self-portrait
3317
01:47:33,959 --> 01:47:37,334
then inside message.
3318
01:47:35,648 --> 01:47:37,334
on the front,
3319
01:47:37,417 --> 01:47:39,417
Then the RSVP card.
3320
01:47:39,500 --> 01:47:41,896
It's just an innocuous flower,
3321
01:47:39,500 --> 01:47:44,292
Office would object to.
3322
01:47:41,897 --> 01:47:44,292
not anything that the Post
3323
01:47:44,375 --> 01:47:45,542
I'm not planning to put
3324
01:47:45,543 --> 01:47:46,709
a curtain, but I'm sure
3325
01:47:46,792 --> 01:47:48,667
there'll be some kind
3326
01:47:46,792 --> 01:47:50,542
as people go in.
3327
01:47:48,668 --> 01:47:50,542
of warning on the gallery
3328
01:47:50,626 --> 01:47:52,001
Well, and with her holding
3329
01:47:52,002 --> 01:47:53,375
her sculpture.
3330
01:47:53,459 --> 01:47:55,626
- -Oh, that was purposeful.
- -Yeah, it's so great.
3331
01:47:55,709 --> 01:47:57,230
I wanted to put
3332
01:47:55,709 --> 01:47:58,751
her sculpture, Lafayette,
3333
01:47:57,231 --> 01:47:58,751
Louise Bourgeois holding
3334
01:47:58,834 --> 01:48:01,272
which looks like a phallus,
3335
01:47:58,834 --> 01:48:03,709
"Man in the Polyester Suit."
3336
01:48:01,273 --> 01:48:03,709
next to the picture of
3337
01:48:03,792 --> 01:48:05,584
-Yes, with his actual phallus.
3338
01:48:05,585 --> 01:48:07,375
-It's a curatorial pun.
3339
01:48:07,459 --> 01:48:11,751
♪ ♪
220867
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