All language subtitles for The.Core.S01E07.WEBRip.x264-ION10

Mickey: This week on "The Core,"

Rodney Ascher, purveyor
of nightmarish documentaries,

dissects what scares us
from childhood to now.

We've also got a doctor
in the house

to get into the science
of sleep paralysis.

And if that doesn't scare you,

Sam Zimmerman's Shudder
recommendations definitely will.

Can't believe they kept
these stupid sheets.

Justice Society?

Not since I was 8.

Fuck you.

You don't own me anymore.

I'm a grown-ass man.

Mom?

Dad?

Aaaahh!

Aaaah!

Aaah!

Mickey: Today we're talking
to horror documentary filmmaker

Rodney Ascher.

In "Room 237,"
he dives head first

into conspiracy theories

surrounding Stanley Kubrick's
"The Shining."

And in "The Nightmare,"
he exposes

the horrors of sleep paralysis.

Ascher's horrors are
the most sinister of all.

They're imprinted on us, they
live in us, they start at birth.

When we grow up,
do our fears grow up, as well?

Let's find out.

Mr. Rodney Ascher,
thank you so much for coming.

Sure thing.You've made a career so far
of doing something

that not a lot of
other people have done,

which are these kind of
horror documentaries.

Let's talk
about "Room 237"...

Okay.
...and just
the inception of it.

Was it a long form
kind of thing,

or did it one day just hit you
and say, "I want to make this.

This is my next film"?

Well, it was
a couple of things.

I mean, first,
I had done a short,

like, maybe two years before

called "The S from Hell."

"The S from Hell"
was about people

who had a childhood phobia
of the Screen Gems logo.Mm-hmm.

Which is in a style of
first-person subjective takes.

It's made it more of a trip
into somebody's head

instead of, you know,
a look at somebody

to bring to life
subjective states of mind.Mm-hmm.

So I wanted to go
farther down that track.

A friend of mine, Tim Kirk,

came across an essay
about the notion

that Stanley Kubrick
faked the moon landing.Mm-hmm.

"Room 237" represents the moon
landing stage where he worked.

As I read the essay
and how it posited the idea

that "The Shining"
was his confession,

very quickly we found out

that that story was just
the tip of the iceberg.

Sure.
That there's
a whole world of people

digging through "The Shining"
looking for clues.

Man: That movie was about
the genocide

of the American Indians.

Man #2: A deeply laid subtext
that takes on the Holocaust.

Woman: Jack is the Minotaur.

Something that's so
fascinating about this film

particularly is
just the aesthetic

that you used throughout

where, you know, you don't
have the talking heads.

What kind of dictated
this artistic choice

to tell the movie
and the story this way?

Well, some of that, you know,
came from "The S from Hell,"

because I, you know, made
that movie for about 50 cents.

If I was gonna interview
people in other states,

I had to do it remotely.Right.

So that movie was all driven
on Skype interviews.

And then in -- in "237,"
as well, just hearing voices

makes it
kind of more internal.

Man #3: Danny's playing with
his trucks, and he stands up

and he's wearing
the Apollo 11 sweater

with the rocket taking off.

Then I knew I had nabbed it,

and every line
began ringing true.

So, it both pushed me
harder to find footage

that would kind of evoke
what they're saying, and --

or sometimes, you know,
be kind of a counterpoint.

But I also just love movies
that are built on archives.

Man #2: You are not seeing
troops storming Normandy.

You're seeing troops storming
a beach in Hollywood.

We used to call
that found-footage films

before "Paranormal Activity"

when it was footage
that the filmmaker found.

And when you bring it
to your aesthetic

and that subject matter,
it -- it is kind of creepy.

And speaking of creepy,
"The Nightmare"

scared the hell
out of people.

Feels like somebody's
screaming right in your ear.

Um, like they're right here
and they're screaming.

I talked to so many
people who are like,

"That's the scariest fucking
movie I've seen in a long time."

Did you anticipate
that kind of a reaction?

Well, I mean, it was always
gonna be creepy and eerie...Yeah.

...because, you know, people are
talking about sleep paralysis

and the nightmare experiences
they have in the borderlands

between waking
and dreaming.

I would feel this presence
right next to me

trying to take my soul out.

For me personally, why I find
that movie so creepy

is that you don't
really go too far

into the scientific
aspect of it.

Talk to me a little bit
about the artistic decision

to go that route.

I kind of thought what my style
kind of lends itself

to is getting into
the heads of these people

who are telling their stories
who went through this stuff

more than doing a roundup
of the latest

medical, psychological,
neurological, um, trends...Mm-hmm.

in sleep studies.
Right.

It's one of my theories
that I don't know

how to visualize a demon
because that's not --

that's not a thing that my brain
can -- can interpret.

Have you ever had any
individual experiences

with sleep paralysis?

There's one
that happened to me

probably 20 years ago
now where, you know,

I woke up in the middle
of the night

and I couldn't move,
I couldn't make a noise,

and I became aware of,
you know,

somehow magically
became aware

that there was sort of a spirit
in the woods in our backyard

walking slowly
towards the house.

And I kind of thought
that my experience

of not being able to move,
he was causing it.

That it was, you know,
like a power

that he had
to keep me at bay

as he was coming towards me.

I had never heard of
sleep paralysis.

I was like,
"Oh, I don't know

what happened that night."

It was a horrifying
supernatural experience,

and I need to mend my ways
to make sure

that that doesn't
happen again.

One of the big open questions
for me

is why people see things

or why they see
what they see.

Why people see similar things,
you know, remains a mystery.

Yeah.
There's a handful of,
you know,

sort of characters that people
commonly see in sleep paralysis.

There's the shadow man.

Hat man.

There's a halfway
credible argument

you can make that
it's responsible

for a lot of superstition
in folklore

which led to horror movies.Mm-hmm.

What if they made a monster
in their dreams?

Then what?

"Nightmare on Elm Street"

was clearly inspired
by sleep paralysis.

Mm-hmm.
There's interviews
with Wes Craven

where he talks about
reading a newspaper article

about these Laotian immigrants
who are dying in their sleep,

like, between the late
'70s, early '80s.

A lot of them had come
from Laos to the U.S.

after the Vietnam War.

Over 100 of them died,
you know,

within the space
of a couple of years.

They actually have a spirit
in their folk culture,

the Dab Tsong,

that comes for you in your sleep
and presses on you.

Nope.

So they would stay awake
to try to keep it from coming,

but there was also --

a lot of them had some
congenital heart defects,

so it's like
this perfect storm.

And, of course, you know,
at the time,

nobody was able
to put those pieces together.

Right.

You know, some filmmakers
really wear

their influence
on their sleeve,

but with you, it's a little
bit more of a mystery,

and so I'd really love
to hear

about the things that
influence you as a filmmaker.

Now, Bruce Conner --
in his movie "A Movie"...

Yeah!
...is kind of the one
that started it all.

You know, a whole world
of mash-ups and remixes --

the power of, you know,
of montage, of...

-Yeah.
-...transformative

use of archival footage,

and a lot of that stuff
can be traced back,

you know,
to this project.

The idea of being able
to use "The end"

in the middle
of your movie...
Right.

...is such a radical,
big thought

that would not occur
to a conventional filmmaker.

Trying to find connections
from shot to shot

that might not have been created
originally to go together,

but you look close enough,

and connections
start to manifest.

"The Kid Stays in the Picture,"
the Robert Evans movie --

Oh, my gosh, this made just
a gigantic impression on me.

The bigger conceptual idea
about this movie --

It's only narrated
by Robert Evans.

'Cause, David, I think I have
the next big book.

It's called "The Detective."

And it's his account of his
adventures in Paramount Studio

and producing "Rosemary's Baby"
and all these classic movies.

There's a part of it
where he talks about fighting

with Francis Ford Coppola

in the making of
"The Godfather."

Another filmmaker
would have gone

to Francis Ford Coppola

and said, "Hey, is that
how it went down?

Do you agree with what
Robert Evans said,"

and that's not what
this movie is about.

This movie is a funhouse tour
through Robert Evans' head,

and what I'm trying to do
in my own projects

is to get you
to look at the world

through the eyes
of the people

who are telling
their stories.

Okay, well,
"The Thin Blue Line" --

Errol Morris' movie --
we look at this crime scene

from like 15
different directions.

We see it get recreated later
from witness after witness

after witness who become
increasingly unreliable,

and he films their subjective
accounts of the story.

He's not filming
those scenes

in order to illustrate
what happened,

he films them to illustrate
what couldn't have happened.

I like to try
to explore things

that may or may
not have happened,

depending on how much
you believe

from the, uh, person
telling the story.

"Land of the Lost."

Yeah, "Land of the Lost" --

This one goes back to my
early exposure to black voids.

It's like a whole
inter-dimensional
portal in here.

She's, like,
in another universe.

It's like a cosmic
H.P. Lovecraftian abyss.

I can definitely see
the influence.

It's very "Nightmare."

You would have seen more
of an influence

if I had dug this up,
uh, when researching it.

'Cause it's really bothering me.

Well,
thanks for sharing those.

Some of --
That stuff leaves a mark.

And I can definitely see
the influence on --

on your works, too.

"The Nightmare" addresses the
idea of nature versus nurture

and whether our childhood fears
can affect our nightmares.

And so I was wondering
if you had any childhood fears

that dictated the way
that you have nightmares,

the way that you dream.

I remember, you know, a lot of
shows that frightened me

or sometimes just
kind of confused me.

I remember, you know,
staying up late one night

and watching an episode
of "Lost in Space"

that I still kind of love
and dread,

you know, kind of equally --

one where they were on
some alien planet,

and Penny discovers
this magic engraved mirror,

like, out in the woods.

Penny: ...where you got this.

Come on. Take me there.

And she falls into it.

Oh!
And then,
on the other side,

there's, like,
this black abyss

that just goes off into infinity
in every direction.

I've been in love with
black voids ever since.

And, like, there's
black voids sometimes

just as graphic patterns

in -- in th--
in the back of shots,

but it all goes to
an unstable world.

I remember, you know,
staying up late one night

and watching an episode
of "That's Incredible!"...

Man: That's incredible!

...which was kind of
an early magazine show

where the people'd do stunts
and kind of

like a "Guinness Book
of World Records" type thing.

And there was one stunt
that was horrible.

It's just horrible.

One of the worst things
I've ever seen in my life

where they built,
like, this tunnel of fire.

And a stunt man was
going to run through.

I don't know -- It must've been
like a 30-foot tunnel of fire.

And he had some
kind of safety suit,

and there was a lot of build-up,
you know,

and, like, he would look at it,
and they'd get close,

and there was
a commercial break.

Then they'd cut back,
and he'd get ready to do it

and get ready to do it.

And then, when the time came,
he ran through,

and he comes out,
and he's mostly okay,

but the horrible part
was he gets up,

and he staggers back,

and he runs back
into the tunnel.

It scared the hell out of me
as a kid,

the idea that, you know,
he went through hell

and it changed him
fundamentally.

He was heading into
oblivion willingly.

That idea of being an agent
of your own destruction --

that was new
and terrifying,

and it's still disturbing to me,
you know,

stories about people
who meet their troubles halfway.

Right. Right.
And so I was wondering

what your childhood self
would say if he stumbled upon

one of your
terrifying documentaries.

So, I'm going to make
scary movies when I grow up?

Well, it's complicated.
More like...

movies about scary movies that
are a little scary themselves.

Oh, so you mean
metatextural essay films

about our two-way relationship
with genre movies.

Exactly.

As Rodney showed us
with "The Nightmare,"

there are very few things

that can affect your state
of mind like sleep.

Take away sleep,
you take away your efficacy,

your mood control,

and maybe even your mind itself.

So who can we turn to
when talking about

something like this?

Well, sleep expert Raj Dasgupta

might have a few answers.

Dr. Raj, thank you so much
for joining me today.

You're very welcome, Mickey.
How can I help you today?

Let's just talk all things
sleep paralysis.

Oh, you got it.
So, when I think about sleep,

I put it in two
broad stages --

non-R.E.M. and R.E.M.
Mm-hmm.

So, when you think about
non-R.E.M. sleep,

you have your three stages,
and, you know,

it's stage one, two,
and three.

Then you have R.E.M.
by itself.

And R.E.M.
stands for "rapid eye movement,"

so your eyes work,
but everything else,

you're paralyzed.
There's a disconnect

between your brain
and your body.

So you're actually awake,
but your body

is stuck
in R.E.M. sleep.

So, let me tell you
about my experience.

I remember,
I was laying in bed.

I could feel that I was awake,
but I was looking,

and I couldn't
move my body.
Right.

This has only happened once,

and all of a sudden,
out of the corner of my eye,

I could see something
standing there,

and it just got
closer and closer,

and it was
this smiling face.
Yeah.

And it got as close to me
as here...
Right.

...and I couldn't scream.
Is that very common --

Is that --That's your manifestation,

but there's certain things

that just bind it all
together.

Number one, you're awake.Yeah.

And you wanna move,
but you feel like you can't.

Yeah.
Next thing you know,
there's always --

what happens is your brain goes
to this hyper-aroused state.

You know what I mean?
It wants to wake you up.

So, what does it do?

It manifests things that
will dry to scare you awake --

a shadow in the window,
someone in the hallway,

someone coming up to you.

But you can't do anything.

Seconds seem like minutes.

Minutes seem like hours.

So, someone just
kind of, like,

broke the hourglass,
stand still.
Yeah.

I'm very curious, and I think
what was so interesting about

"The Nightmare" was,
across so many cultures,

across --
all across the world,

people seem to see
the same thing.

-Yeah, exactly.
-Why do you think that is?

I think we all have that
special place in our mind

that knows what scares us.

And I think there's
a common ground over there.

And I can't say that
this one picture

will translate
across centuries,

across generations, and look
how things have changed.

Things have started off
with "Romeo and Juliet"...

Yeah.
...things about
the old hag,

and now things are
Freddy Krueger.

Mm-hmm.
So I think it's
who you're asking

and what are
their nightmares.

And like you said
before, Mickey,

what were
their experiences.

I mean, this was the answer
for things like alien abduction.

Do you have any stories where
people came in and they're like,

"I'm pretty sure I was abducted
by the grays last night.

Can you help me out?"

No, but, you know,
when you describe what happens

in most of these
abduction stories,

it's so easy to say that was
an episode of sleep paralysis.

You know, the --
the touching, the probing,

the -- the wanting
to scream and shout...
Mm-hmm.

...the way they look,

how they're standing
in the hallway --

These are things
that you can give --

different cultures
give a name to.

So it does make some sense
of why there is

a common theme
throughout our world.

Are there any other common
things, like alien abduction,

that you often kind of hear
or hear stories of -- of like,

they're convinced
it's that?

And, you know, the big thing
is gonna be demons --

the incubus
and the succubus, you know?

But it always seems
to be associated

with nothing peaceful.
Right.

It always seems to be like this
is a punishment

that you're having this...Yeah.

...and so that's why it's
chalked up under nightmares.

What a surprise,
you know?

Well, doc, I came in here
worrying about sleep demons,

and now I'm gonna leave here
worrying about sleep demons.

Oh, no!But at least there's
a science behind it now.

-Yes, there is.
-Thank you so much.

You're very welcome.I really appreciate it.

Mickey,
my favorite customer.

Sam, what fucked
you up as a kid?

As a kid...

Like "The Bad Seed?"

No, like, you, as a child.

Child.

Ah, like
"Who Can Kill a Child?"

That's my favorite
killer kid movie.

No, not movies, Sam!
Like, you, personally.

What fucked you up
during your childhood?

Mickey...

I've never been a child.

"Room 237."
Rodney Ascher.

Yeah, it's, uh,
pretty great.

I love Rodney's stuff.

That moon landing
was totally fake.

You're an idiot.

But I have some stuff
I think you'll love

that gets at you
in the same way

Rodney's stuff does,
you know,

like,
scar you existentially.

Great.
We're gonna start
with "They Look Like People."

Woman: Those that try to hurt
you will turn silent.

This film is a really
vivid look at mental illness

and your perception
of reality.

It has these insane
dream sequences

in sort of pitch-black
background.

It gets totally
under your skin.

It's ultra-low-budget,
but what they pull off

is genuinely creepy.
I think you're gonna dig this.

I think it's gonna fuck
you up a little bit.I can't wait.

On the other side
of the spectrum is "Blind Sun."

This is similarly, like,
new-school paranoia,

but out, sunburnt,
sun-scorched, on the beach.

It's in Greece.

There's a guy,
he's house sitting,

and the people around him
are constantly questioning him.

He's constantly asked about his
immigration status, who he is,

and it really takes on
some rich themes

about sort of immigration
and our own biases.

Beach, sun-torched,
sweaty movie.

Sounds good to me.

Then we got "Noroi."

"Noroi" is a Japanese film
from the director

of "Sadako vs. Kayako."Okay.

It's actually from 2005,

never released in the U.S.,
but it's a Shudder exclusive.

We finally brought it
to the States.

It's really special.

It takes
that D.V. aesthetic

and freaks you out

as this guy who investigates
paranormal instances

follows a curse
through generations,

all the way to its, like,
really demonic roots.

This is one of
the scariest movies

of the early 21st century,

and it's totally essential.

That sounds awesome
and terrifying.

All right.
I got two more for you.

We're gonna take you
to documentary. Is that cool?

Real-life horror.
I'm ready, baby.

All right. We're gonna talk
about "Cropsey"...

Man: Cropsey was the escaped
mental patient

who lived in the tunnels
beneath the old

abandoned Willowbrook
Mental Institution.

...and "Killer Legends."

This is attempt
to uncover the truth

behind our urban legends.

These are two movies
from Joshua Zeman.

He co-directed "Cropsey"
with Barbara Brancaccio

and "Killer Legends"
with Rachel Mills.

Both films look
at urban legends

and kind of what frightened us
as kids, the stories we heard,

and follows them
to their factual roots.

You know, where did
these myths come from?

What did these myths
attach themselves to?

In the case of "Cropsey,"

the legend of Cropsey
attached itself

to a bunch of child abductions
on Staten Island.

So, they do a really
great job of

looking at what scared
people in their youth

and then extrapolating
that into true adult fears,

like loss, like child abduction,
like grief.

They're awesome. They will
stick with you, I promise.

Well, these sound like
awesome recommendations, dude.

Thank you so much.

Take care of that childhood
thing before you think

about having kids
or anything.

Don't worry.
I can't.

All right.
Well...

Later.
Salutations.

Holy shit.

Another nightmare?

Hey, Rodney.

Hey, Mickey.

Is this a dream?

All right.
I'm not falling for this again.

I know a nightmare
when I'm in one.

Aah! Fuck!