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We find that people steal
for, really, four reasons.
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00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:11,920
The first is because
they have to.
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00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:15,758
The second is that
you've found a way.
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00:00:15,759 --> 00:00:18,678
The third, and this is
where it starts to escalate,
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00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,439
is that you are
getting away with it.
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00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,040
And the fourth is that if you
are caught, the punishment...
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is acceptable to you.
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[reporter] shockwaves in
corporate South Africa.
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[reporter] There were
accounting irregularities...
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[reporter] ...accounting
irregularities...
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Insider trading...
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[reporter] ...and
possible tax fraud.
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The South Africa retail giant lost
billions from its market value
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00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,879
on the JSE and in Frankfurt.
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[reporter] Dark days lie ahead for
Steinhoff and its CEO, Markus Jooste.
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00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,640
[reporter] Investors
want answers.
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[reporter] Jooste will also most
likely face criminal charges.
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[Markus Jooste] I never lied about
the activities of the company
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as the allegation was made. Obviously
they're pointing fingers at me.
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[cellphone vibrating]
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[message alert]
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So it emerged that a few weeks
before that moment in December 2017
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Markus Jooste had sent a message to
four of his closest friends saying that
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what you need to do is probably
sell your shares right now.
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[message alert]
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That falls within the classic
definition of insider trading.
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You know that something damaging
is coming down the line.
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You know this if
you're Markus Jooste
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because you are the cause
of what's happening.
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He warned his driver.
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He warned Ockie Oosthuizen and a
few others to sell their shares.
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That's the easiest thing
to prosecute him on.
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But it's a criminal thing. The
Hawks could arrest him on that.
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This is a week before it collapsed,
because he knew this was gonna collapse.
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That's the crazy part of it.
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[reporter1] It was like a
storm tearing through the JSE.
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The international retailers announced
that its CEO, Markus Jooste, has resigned.
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The news caused the company's
share price to crash over 60%.
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00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,079
The immediate reaction in
Stellenbosch was much more acute.
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Or, the shocked reaction, I
suppose, was much more acute
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than in the rest of the country.
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00:03:03,479 --> 00:03:08,399
Because by that stage, Steinhoff
had already infiltrated this town
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to such a degree that their
logo pretty much was everywhere.
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For years, their shareholders
may have enjoyed fat dividends,
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00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:18,959
but for Steinhoff, the chickens
are coming home to roost.
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Already people are talking about
Steinhoff as Africa's Enron.
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[Pieter du Toit] A town which prides
itself on being a town for the elite
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very quickly saw,
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"We need to create distance between
ourselves, Jooste, and Steinhoff."
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All the hoardings and
the advertising boards
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was very swiftly removed and
relegated to a storage facility.
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So, Stellenbosch saw
it's not temporary.
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This is done and dusted.
This is permanent.
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[Fifi Peters] Just a week ago,
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Steinhoff was challenging world
furniture giant IKEA for dominance.
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Now it has all gone to dust.
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00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:04,319
But for the old money, there was
a certain degree of schadenfreude.
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00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,640
Even though a lot of them owned Steinhoff
shares, and even though a lot of them
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00:04:08,641 --> 00:04:13,119
enjoyed the hospitality of Markus
Jooste quite often, you know.
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00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,878
I think there was
some duplicity around
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some of these old
Stellenbosch moneyed classes,
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people saying, [clicks
tongue] "I told you so."
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I've lost 30 years of my work.
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Will you sue him?
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Well, you know, that's
part of the dicey things.
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I wait until the facts
are on the table,
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and then all the actions will
be taken that are necessary.
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- Thank you very much, sir. All the best.
- My pleasure. Go well, bye-bye.
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[Fifi Peters] It's been a
very expensive week for Wiese.
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He lost $2.1 billion in one day.
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His net worth has gone down from nearly
$6 billion to less than a billion.
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00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:10,359
He can't feel too good about
having lost R59 billion
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less whatever he's recovered
in recent settlements.
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Most of what was raised in
2009 actually materialized.
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[director] How did you feel
personally at the time?
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I guess at the end of the
day I felt vindicated.
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It's about the right result
at the end of the day.
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And the right result was that
Markus Jooste stepped down
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as CEO of Steinhoff for things
that he shouldn't have been doing.
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It's in my blood, doing the right
thing, and I strive to do that.
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I don't always achieve what I should
and we all make mistakes along the way.
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But ultimately, doing the right
thing is what it's all about.
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00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,719
[Jean Pierre Verster] So on one hand,
one feels good, if you do analysis
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00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,800
and your analysis pans out and
it shows that you were correct.
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On the other side, I knew that a lot
of people would lose a lot of money,
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00:06:14,401 --> 00:06:17,958
so there's no joy when the
share price falls that sharply.
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I was relieved that I
could at least protect
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00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,838
the value of the
investors in my fund
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and make some money from
the fall in the share price.
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00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,799
[director] How much money did you
make on short selling Steinhoff?
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00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,960
[Jean Pierre Verster] We
made roughly R9 million.
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But there was definitely
gonna be more pain
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versus those that made money from the
incident, and I was aware of that.
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To this day we don't really
know what transpired...
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other than the fact that we
were told the share price,
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as supported by various
professional bodies
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was fairly priced.
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00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,958
If we knew that there would be an
event in the future of the business
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00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:06,239
that would drop that share
price from R75 to R5,
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00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,359
we would obviously never
have done that deal.
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00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,559
I hope no one would
have done a deal.
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[director] You did your deal based on a
share price that was a house of cards.
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00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,559
So they say, and that's
how it stands today.
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00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,720
I think what was particularly aggrieving
to us is that we weren't paid at all.
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00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:28,359
Bernard Mostert joins us now.
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00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,280
There's four years
of litigation.
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00:07:30,281 --> 00:07:36,318
It's a case of trying to find your
way through the legal Gordian Knot.
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00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:39,799
One of the reasons why we
have litigated so aggressively
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is that there must
be accountability
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and there must be recourse
for events of this nature.
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00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,039
[Braam van Huyssteen]
It wasn't only about me.
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I had a team, and that's
what concerned me most.
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00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:55,958
[Landezwa Dulaze] Braam is the main
shareholder who established the business,
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but we all contributed
to the business.
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So we felt, as staff, that
we were also defrauded.
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I believe there's been crime
that has been committed here.
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We're not the kind of a team that sits
there and wait for something to happen.
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[Bernard Mostert] We have people in the
business who've been with us a long time.
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And for them to hear, A, "What you
were promised you're not gonna get,"
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00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:25,400
and, B, "Your mentor and your
founder has been defrauded."
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Very, very difficult to stomach.
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00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:35,079
We did have the resources
to go full steam ahead
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00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,640
once we knew that what was
promised to us wasn't what it was.
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00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,599
[Rob Rose] There were smaller
guys, various investors,
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00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,319
that swapped a stake in a fast-growing
company with good prospects
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00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,040
for something that ultimately
turned out to be a mirage.
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00:08:54,041 --> 00:08:57,079
So, a lot of the guys who had
shares in this growing company
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00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,280
were then left with
something pretty worthless.
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00:08:59,281 --> 00:09:05,558
In total I lost quite a few million from
Steinhoff, which is really a lot of money.
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00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:11,558
Hard-earned money that my wife and I
worked for in our various businesses
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00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,959
throughout the 50 years
of being an entrepreneur.
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00:09:20,399 --> 00:09:24,518
When things go wrong, it's human
nature to play the blame game.
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00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:26,959
Steinhoff's case
is no different.
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00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,439
Questions have been asked about
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00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,319
how billionaire Christo Wiese,
and the entire Steinhoff board,
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00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,359
did not know what was going on.
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These are the kind of people
who we, as the public,
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00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,239
believe know what they're doing
when they're managing our money.
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00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,439
It's not only Christo Wiese
and the board and the auditors.
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00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,239
It's analysts, investors,
asset managers,
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00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,999
the PIC, who was the second
biggest shareholder in Steinhoff
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00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,120
for a number of years.
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00:09:52,759 --> 00:09:57,278
The PIC is then actually
the main investment agency
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00:09:57,279 --> 00:10:00,999
for the government
employment fund.
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00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,758
And all people working for the
government, the state officials,
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00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:13,719
and the pensioners are
co-owners of that fund.
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00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,200
Steinhoff was one of the
big organizations in which
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00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,278
the PIC invested in
order to grow the fund
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00:10:23,279 --> 00:10:27,839
to make sure that the benefits
could be paid to pensioners.
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00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,479
The Federation
would like to assure
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00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,119
government employee pension
fund members and pensioners
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00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,119
that their funds are fully
protected based on the fact
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00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,038
in the beginning, the
benefits are set out in law.
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00:10:48,039 --> 00:10:52,878
Market fluctuations do not affect
the quantum of the pension benefits.
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00:10:52,879 --> 00:10:55,959
We essentially have two
types of pension funds.
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00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,800
There is a pension fund where you put
in your money and you hope for the best.
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00:10:59,801 --> 00:11:03,599
We refer to that as a defined contribution
fund because you are only told
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00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,199
how much you need to put in,
which is your contribution.
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00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,599
We are hoping that over the
life of your employment then,
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00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,400
though the pension fund contributions
are invested in a manner
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00:11:13,401 --> 00:11:14,999
that leaves you better off.
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00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,999
On the other hand, we then have something
referred to as a defined benefit fund,
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00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,520
which is one that simply says
that if you work for so many years
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00:11:22,521 --> 00:11:26,479
and your salary is XYZ, when you
eventually retire on a particular date,
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00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,320
this is how much
you're going to get.
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00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,000
So the government employee pension
fund is a defined benefit model.
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00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,400
Under a defined benefit scheme,
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00:11:37,401 --> 00:11:40,758
the biggest risk that you face
is that at the point in time
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00:11:40,759 --> 00:11:43,119
when your employees
have to retire,
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00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,599
the money that's available
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may not be sufficient to meet
the commitments that you've made.
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00:11:47,921 --> 00:11:51,999
Then, obviously, somebody has to step in
and top up whatever that deficit might be,
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00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,680
and in this case, it happens to
be the South African taxpayer.
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00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,119
The long-term effect is the big problem.
It's going to be a complete disaster.
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00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,920
[Zwelakhe Mnguni] There are smaller
pension funds that were invested.
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00:12:06,921 --> 00:12:10,599
Even my pension fund, wherever it
is, it would have been affected.
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00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:20,319
And if you think about widows
and orphans and security guards,
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00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:25,359
and, you know, I'm an ex-security
guard and actually those people,
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00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,398
they've got no means,
even if it was R5 000...
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00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:30,758
They've got no means of
recovering that R5 000.
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00:12:30,759 --> 00:12:36,038
It may be tiny amounts in absolute terms,
but relative to what those people own,
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00:12:36,039 --> 00:12:37,558
it's significant.
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00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,878
There is a bit of an emotional
connection to me that I know how it feels
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00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:47,319
and I know how difficult it is for them
every day to try and make their day wage.
185
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:55,959
I worked for six years as a security
guard and I saved up for university,
186
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,959
and I knew that I had a
passion for financial markets.
187
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,960
And yeah, that's
where I come from.
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00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,878
There were defenceless people
who are sweeping the streets,
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00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:14,119
working for the municipality, and now
they're caught up in the Steinhoff thing.
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00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,560
And it was particularly
for that reason
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00:13:16,561 --> 00:13:19,119
that I stood up and said,
"I'm going to the police
192
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:24,678
and I must give the police the evidence
that I, together with the team,
193
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,079
we have been saying there
is something wrong here."
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00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:32,439
So I felt that by
going to the police
195
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,918
it would actually give
us some retribution
196
00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:38,639
for the investors,
for South Africa.
197
00:13:42,799 --> 00:13:45,678
[Rob Rose] What happened at
Steinhoff, did it hit you financially?
198
00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:50,079
It was very bad. Everything is
gone. The big money is gone.
199
00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,239
So that was an absolute
uncomfortable for me
200
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,758
and for my family, to tell
to my family what is there.
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00:14:00,759 --> 00:14:05,119
For me Steinhoff is finished,
I have nothing to do with that.
202
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,798
You see, with my
business I was never home
203
00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:15,439
to develop this company
in the whole world.
204
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,439
I think that is the truth. But now that
time is over. Now I have time enough.
205
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,719
And I'm a happy man with
85 years to survive.
206
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,319
And I want to have sport.
207
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,800
I want to have friendship or
to stay with people together.
208
00:14:31,801 --> 00:14:34,159
That is the end of my life.
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00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:38,359
Markus... I don't
know what he's doing.
210
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:43,798
I only know that in South Africa,
all the big MDs in these companies,
211
00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:46,479
these people have no
contact with Markus.
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00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,560
After December 2017, when Markus
resigns, he retreats to Hermanus.
213
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,359
In the months after the crash,
214
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,360
Steinhoff was scrambling hard
to figure out how to survive.
215
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,439
For a few days, Christo Wiese
took the reins as acting CEO
216
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,959
but soon resigned entirely from
the board when it became clear
217
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,920
that he was going to sue the
company for what he lost.
218
00:15:10,921 --> 00:15:14,239
Heather Sonn is then appointed
as chair of Steinhoff
219
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,120
to, I suppose,
clean the thing up.
220
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,079
She had a formidable track record working
in New York and various other places,
221
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,800
and as an investment banker she
knew her way around finance.
222
00:15:25,801 --> 00:15:30,199
So after they appointed the new
board, Christo Weise, Heather Sonn,
223
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,760
and a few others go to Parliament to
explain what has happened at Steinhoff.
224
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,599
On the first day that I was
asked to take this position,
225
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:52,199
I asked for a picture of the person
who lost the most, the biggest loser.
226
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:57,158
We couldn't find a picture, but that
is the picture that I keep in my mind.
227
00:15:57,159 --> 00:16:03,878
And as long as there is hope that we can
get to some return for that individual,
228
00:16:03,879 --> 00:16:08,119
those sets of individuals,
we will not stop trying.
229
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:13,199
People and households lost
money. My own father lost money,
230
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,079
a significant amount of money.
231
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:20,440
And so it was very clear that there were
going to be significant consequences.
232
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,119
I thought very
strongly at the time
233
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,319
Parliament has to be, sort of,
tough on crime in the public sector,
234
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,638
but also tough on crime
in the private sector,
235
00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:39,359
and needed to start to scrutinize
what indeed had happened.
236
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,798
Your version, essentially,
was that Markus Jooste
237
00:16:42,799 --> 00:16:47,278
perpetrated a massive
fraud all on his own,
238
00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:50,398
and nobody knew
anything about it,
239
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,638
least of all the
non-executive directors.
240
00:16:53,639 --> 00:16:58,719
It's a lot of, can I put it gently?
Waffle. Really, it's disappointing.
241
00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:02,479
It's bordering on
demoralizing, actually.
242
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,919
And we feel that you're
not fully appreciating
243
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,159
the gravity of
what's at issue here.
244
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,320
[Louis du Preez] Heather and
I were the punching bags.
245
00:17:11,321 --> 00:17:14,399
We were the ones that were
shouted and screamed at
246
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,000
because we were the
face of the company.
247
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,558
It got quite personal at times,
248
00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:30,278
and people taking out their
frustration on you personally.
249
00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:35,038
It's stuff that got said
in affidavits and in court.
250
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:37,879
Now, we all know that's
part of the game,
251
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:43,200
but it's, um... It's hard, personally,
and it's quite hard on the family.
252
00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:48,399
The immediate task was just to
try and stabilize everything.
253
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,838
And no shareholder is going to
be prepared to keep their shares
254
00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:57,879
in your company
without financials.
255
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:04,278
And here embarks the process to try
and get new financials in place.
256
00:18:04,279 --> 00:18:06,719
That was part of the reason
257
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,600
why we embarked with a PWC
forensic investigation.
258
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,758
I and the management team
have weekly contact with PWC.
259
00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:21,439
In fact, I've got two calls
a week, set up with them.
260
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:26,239
At the current moment, there's
more than a hundred people of PWC
261
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,679
that works on this
assignment across the world.
262
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,999
The costs for this company in
employing PWC is significant.
263
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,000
At the moment it runs
north of R200 million.
264
00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:41,919
We had the unfortunate
position that Mr Jooste
265
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,879
wasn't around at the
time because he resigned.
266
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,199
Did Markus Jooste, in your
view, ever lie to you,
267
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,558
mislead you, or do
you think, use you?
268
00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,159
I do believe that there was a
limited sharing of information
269
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,199
from Mr Jooste to myself.
270
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,040
You must bear in mind
that, at least in my view,
271
00:19:01,041 --> 00:19:04,759
this practice commenced
a number of years ago.
272
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,120
So therefore, if you grow that
false profit every year, no person,
273
00:19:09,121 --> 00:19:13,078
no auditor, no analyst will certainly
just by looking at the numbers, tell you,
274
00:19:13,079 --> 00:19:16,959
"But here's something that changes
suddenly this year, here's false income!"
275
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,880
Because it started so long ago and just
every year it gets increased a little bit.
276
00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:23,439
From my side, I'm
also deeply saddened
277
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,320
with the events that happened at
Steinhoff and all the money that was lost,
278
00:19:27,321 --> 00:19:31,239
like the majority of people involved
in trying to save this business.
279
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,959
From my side, I also do not think
I did anything deliberately wrong.
280
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,120
[Rob Rose] Ben la Grange,
Steinhoff's former CFO,
281
00:19:38,121 --> 00:19:40,879
was left in the lurch when
Jooste quit and disappeared.
282
00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:43,719
He was left to
flounder in Parliament,
283
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,760
faced a series of questions to
which he just didn't have answers.
284
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,600
Ben was one of Markus's
most loyal lieutenants,
285
00:19:49,601 --> 00:19:52,599
but when the going got tough,
Jooste left him in the cold.
286
00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:58,078
PWC released the report just after
the close of the markets last Friday,
287
00:19:58,079 --> 00:20:01,838
16 months after Markus Jooste
walked out of the building.
288
00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:04,479
[reporter2] A report
by auditing firm PWC
289
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,239
named several executives, including
former CEO, Markus Jooste.
290
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,679
No one really knows
where Jooste is.
291
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,320
He still hasn't come
forward or spoken to anyone.
292
00:20:13,321 --> 00:20:15,879
Mr Jooste, we understand,
is still in the country,
293
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,118
either in Stellenbosch or
at his home in Hermanus.
294
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,679
But having said that, there's
been no charges put to him,
295
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,520
so he really is free to
come and go as he pleases.
296
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,600
Just like a romantic
relationship when it ends,
297
00:20:33,601 --> 00:20:37,078
when you look back you kind
of see the warning signs.
298
00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:42,278
Having that reflection on your
professional relationship with Jooste,
299
00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:43,919
do you have those warning signs?
300
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,399
No. Nothing, you know,
that would stick out,
301
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,360
that would certainly make you say,
"Whoops, let's look at this again."
302
00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,199
In this instance, it was
literally a bolt out of the blue.
303
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,199
I always found it strange that he said
it came like a bolt out of the blue.
304
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,560
Could be a case of being blind to
what's actually going on, because
305
00:21:07,561 --> 00:21:10,919
if you get too close to the management
team, you sort of lose your objectivity.
306
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,879
So, I wouldn't be surprised if
Christo Wiese lost his objectivity
307
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,480
in terms of seeing, actually, that
he was gonna be taken for a ride.
308
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,879
[Rob Rose] You know, your career
has been a series of successes.
309
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,080
- You haven't had too many failures.
- Yes.
310
00:21:25,081 --> 00:21:27,999
How does the Steinhoff failure
rank in your business career?
311
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,159
I mean, was it your
biggest mistake?
312
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,239
It is the biggest mistake
by a country mile, Rob.
313
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,440
I mean, what it cost
me in monetary terms.
314
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,078
But what it cost also
in reputational terms,
315
00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:47,318
it's by a country mile
the biggest mistake.
316
00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:52,439
How would I explain getting
lured into that trap?
317
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:57,838
Is I relied too much on
other people's due diligence.
318
00:21:57,839 --> 00:22:02,639
Jooste, for a period of more
than a decade, we now know,
319
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,680
had managed to get through the
internal audit function in Steinhoff.
320
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,199
He managed to get through
the component auditors
321
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,760
in the different jurisdictions
all over the world.
322
00:22:13,761 --> 00:22:17,679
He got through the banks
that lent him billions.
323
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,639
The institutional investors,
the ratings agencies.
324
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,600
You know, until a few
months before the collapse,
325
00:22:25,601 --> 00:22:28,879
Steinhoff still had an
investment-grade rating.
326
00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:33,439
He got through all
those gatekeepers.
327
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,838
Why should I have seen it?
328
00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:42,239
When those people who were there
for years, they never saw it.
329
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:47,919
Should I have said, "No, no, no.
I don't trust all these auditors.
330
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,320
I want to do my own audit"?
331
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,200
Why did it never happen in 50
years in my other businesses?
332
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,118
There was a long history of
the Steinhoff management team
333
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,679
getting more and more aggressive,
whether in applying accounting policies,
334
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:18,639
whether in doing tax structuring, whether
in doing merger and acquisition deals.
335
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,800
But at some point, it
doesn't pass the smell test.
336
00:23:27,079 --> 00:23:32,239
No company wants to have liabilities
that negatively affect its bottom line,
337
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,040
and so it will look for
ways of removing them.
338
00:23:35,041 --> 00:23:39,518
They're called off balance sheet
transactions, an accounting loophole
339
00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:44,319
that can be used to enhance the
company's apparent profitability.
340
00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:46,278
In the case of Steinhoff,
341
00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:50,759
it had consumer finance
businesses JD Finance and Capfin.
342
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,800
These companies extended loans to
people who often couldn't afford them,
343
00:23:55,801 --> 00:23:58,519
and so, the risk of
defaulting was high.
344
00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:05,038
Steinhoff decided to sell these companies
to a third party to remove this risk.
345
00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:10,639
However, it actually lent the money to
the third party to finance this purchase
346
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,639
and accounted for the interest
on these loans as revenue.
347
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:21,278
Steinhoff then reacquired the
profitable segments of the businesses.
348
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:23,919
It was a deal that didn't
stand up to scrutiny
349
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,400
as it was clearly set up
to exploit a loophole.
350
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,639
At face value, it makes sense to say
no one would enter into a transaction
351
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,959
that they knew,
behind the scenes,
352
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,239
was with a company that had no
substance, that was fraudulent.
353
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,078
I do think, though, that people
sometimes enter transactions
354
00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:45,318
that they know is
quite aggressive.
355
00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:48,719
It pushes the envelope
when it comes to tax rules,
356
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,479
comes to foreign
exchange restrictions,
357
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,600
and therefore that they should
know that there's a risk,
358
00:24:54,601 --> 00:24:58,239
perhaps that some of the deals
are very close to the foul line.
359
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,560
I never could believe that these
figures were coloured. Never.
360
00:25:05,039 --> 00:25:10,399
Our business style was to have top
people and to believe top people.
361
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:16,038
I never was in these meetings because
the finance department was not my job.
362
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:20,239
And they always said everything is
okay. I had a shock, a real shock.
363
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,038
[Louis du Preez] You have to
understand why they're so upset,
364
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:37,999
why they're so frustrated.
365
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,719
And it's not just the
money that they've lost.
366
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,758
There's that personal
self-belief that they've lost,
367
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:50,518
"But how could I not have seen
this? How did I miss this?
368
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:54,199
Is there something
wrong in my judgment?"
369
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,719
[Fifi Peters] In all the confusion,
one of the big questions coming out
370
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,118
is how on earth the auditors
signed off on Steinhoff results
371
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,999
for many years, before
everything came to light?
372
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,160
Steinhoff's results were very difficult
to compare with previous years' results.
373
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,520
Steinhoff changed its year end
during the preceding years,
374
00:26:18,521 --> 00:26:22,999
so what it meant was you couldn't really
compare the one year with the other one.
375
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,558
And they also changed the reporting
currency from Rand to Euro.
376
00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:29,118
Which also made
it very difficult
377
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,558
because, you know, which exchange
rate do you use to compare?
378
00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:36,999
Because the sales were made
over a 12-month period.
379
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:43,118
But at that stage it was definitely
not perceived as being a way to hide,
380
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,599
you know, accounting
irregularities.
381
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:51,080
Steinhoff is a big company, it's a complex
company, it's got a lot of moving parts.
382
00:26:51,081 --> 00:26:53,519
Maybe it was just a
way to simplify things,
383
00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:58,959
and I think that is how it was perceived
by the media, as well as many analysts.
384
00:27:09,759 --> 00:27:12,999
Auditors perform a public service.
They operate in the public interest.
385
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,720
And often auditors forget that they
are there to protect the public.
386
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,439
They don't work for the
directors of the company.
387
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,798
In fact, they should report
back to the investors
388
00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:32,318
that management is performing
their functions properly.
389
00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:35,479
It's still the responsibility
of the management
390
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,239
to prepare the
financial statements,
391
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,318
and the responsibility
of those with oversight
392
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:41,999
to exercise their
oversight function
393
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,800
in terms of management's preparation
of those financial statements.
394
00:27:45,801 --> 00:27:49,598
And an audit cannot take
away those responsibilities.
395
00:27:49,599 --> 00:27:54,159
Now, we do know that auditors are also
not responsible for detecting fraud,
396
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,439
but the standards
require that the auditors
397
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,480
do develop procedures to
discover fraud if it does exist.
398
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:06,598
There was a lot of information in the
public domain that would've alerted me
399
00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:08,598
to ask more questions,
400
00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:14,559
to be sceptical about some of the
alleged shenanigans at Steinhoff.
401
00:28:16,759 --> 00:28:18,479
The fraud standard actually
402
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,558
starts off by explaining that
there are two types of fraud.
403
00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:26,879
It's either misappropriation of assets
or fraudulent financial reporting.
404
00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:31,759
In the case of Steinhoff, it was
allegedly fraudulent financial reporting.
405
00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:36,278
If you'll indulge me, I'll go
through some of the factors
406
00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:39,879
that could have alerted
the auditors to...
407
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,680
potential fraud existing.
408
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,320
"Rapid growth in a business.
409
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,240
The need for additional debt
or additional financing.
410
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,560
The inability to repay debt.
411
00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:59,159
Significant related-party
transactions.
412
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:02,679
When there's many
year-end adjustments.
413
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,479
Missing evidence, or
altered documents.
414
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,080
- Dominant management or a dominant CEO.
- [seagull calling]
415
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,080
Weak governance structures.
Complex organisational structures.
416
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,160
When there are
schemes to reduce tax.
417
00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:24,358
Unreasonable timeframes
placed on the auditor.
418
00:29:24,359 --> 00:29:26,919
When there is a lot of
complex transactions
419
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,199
when it involves
international operations,
420
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,480
and when there's use of
intermediaries, when doing business."
421
00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:40,639
Deloitte needs to take
responsibility for what happened.
422
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,639
I think they were one
of the key failures
423
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,159
in the oversight
function for Steinhoff.
424
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,278
They screwed up, with any doubt,
425
00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:55,159
and it cost a lot of
people a lot of money.
426
00:29:57,119 --> 00:30:00,959
One of the root causes that
we also discovered was that
427
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,999
the firms had started to allow
their commercial interests
428
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,840
to overtake their
professional responsibilities.
429
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,479
[director] In simple terms,
we're talking about greed?
430
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:15,680
Yes.
431
00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:25,679
It's quite clear that people
can almost describe Steinhoff
432
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,600
as a massive commercial,
fraudulent conspiracy.
433
00:30:31,119 --> 00:30:36,959
Because the figures would indicate
that, you know, there was very little
434
00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:42,359
in the Steinhoff that I
sold my companies into...
435
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:47,999
in contradiction of the
published audited accounts.
436
00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:56,518
If someone is meticulous and devious
in the way that they actually hide it,
437
00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:59,558
the one thing that's gonna be very
difficult to protect yourself against
438
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:02,279
is a deliberate
fraudster and thief.
439
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,840
I think that there's the old
saying, "If good men stay quiet,
440
00:31:09,841 --> 00:31:11,679
that's when evil things happen."
441
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,639
And I think that lots of the
board members, the investors...
442
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,999
In Afrikaans we call it,
they are "skaamkwaad"
443
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,999
they're cross with themselves, but
they also don't want to admit it.
444
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,400
I think it's important that we all put the
facts on the table as we believe they are.
445
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,278
I think one of the first
building blocks of any good scam
446
00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:36,358
is to ensure that you surround
yourself with a core of people
447
00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:40,759
who are going to be your lieutenants,
and Markus did that very well.
448
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:47,999
It's true, also, that in any
business you must surround yourself
449
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,919
with a core of lieutenants, and there's
nothing wrong with that in principle.
450
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,840
But I think as this thing grew...
Because if you can get away with it once,
451
00:31:56,841 --> 00:32:00,919
you'll get away with it twice, and you
continue to do it as long as you can.
452
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,999
And so this thing snowballed.
And as it snowballed,
453
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:09,518
the strategy of Markus surrounding
himself with a board and leaders
454
00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:15,798
who were going to accept that we
needed to, almost, commit small crimes
455
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:17,759
for the greater
good, so to speak.
456
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,600
I'm sure that's how they
explained it to themselves.
457
00:32:20,601 --> 00:32:24,879
All of that points
to an infrastructure
458
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,078
of deceit and fraud,
almost, if you will,
459
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:33,038
because if that's what comes out, that
it was fraud, then one can now say
460
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:37,239
that that was how you built up this
infrastructure to realize that.
461
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,719
And the key to that
462
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,120
was keeping those individuals who
know how the system works, close.
463
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,959
There was this
cabal, in a sense.
464
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,879
This closed, Mafia-style,
Stellenbosch-type of grouping,
465
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,999
all connected to each
other, all studied together.
466
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,919
It was in many ways not
different to what apartheid was
467
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:04,160
in the sense in that it's authoritarian.
You know, you're either in or you're out.
468
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:08,959
The fact that Steinhoff
469
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,959
became one of the biggest
supporters of rugby in the country.
470
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,999
Another key thing, I mean, he would take
rugby players from the Lions, or wherever,
471
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,439
and he would bring them
straight into the organization.
472
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,199
You know, they would basically
have a straight entry
473
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,879
into an executive position,
and I experienced that.
474
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,879
After years of working,
doing the hard graft,
475
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,600
I suddenly had to report to
some rugby player who came in
476
00:33:32,601 --> 00:33:34,439
and has no business experience.
477
00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:39,798
I realized that my time at
Steinhoff had come to an end
478
00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:44,118
when Markus appointed one
of his Stellenbosch buddies
479
00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:47,199
to head up the unit
that I was working in.
480
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:51,239
And, you know, we were
supposed to be colleagues
481
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:56,558
and it was clear that there was
just no respect for me as a person.
482
00:33:56,559 --> 00:33:59,239
I addressed this issue
with Markus in the room.
483
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,439
And it wasn't well received.
And after that, you can imagine
484
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,080
doors started closing and things
just looked completely different.
485
00:34:07,081 --> 00:34:09,959
I had a bit of a...
486
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:14,759
What shall one call it? A
Damascus moment, in a sense.
487
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,320
Where I broke my ties with Steinhoff,
sold my shares, and I moved on.
488
00:34:33,559 --> 00:34:36,439
When the initial
fallout happened
489
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,240
it was a little bit awkward
490
00:34:38,241 --> 00:34:40,799
for everyone to know,
really, how to deal with it.
491
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,678
In terms of the
racing side of things,
492
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:51,558
it seemed as though Mr Jooste
was reluctant to withdraw,
493
00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:53,439
but to his credit, he did.
494
00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:58,078
So there was a bit, in my
opinion, of an unseemly scramble
495
00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:00,839
for these horses
to be reallocated.
496
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,678
So they were sold or, you know,
changed ownership sort of overnight
497
00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:09,039
so that they could still run, but it
would be under somebody else's name.
498
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,520
[director] Somebody who obviously
has such a passion for this,
499
00:35:12,521 --> 00:35:15,718
- this must...
- Hurt.
500
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,879
I would imagine it's difficult because
it's you know, it's not just your hobby.
501
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,638
It becomes your social life.
It becomes your business life.
502
00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:27,078
And so, to lose all of that, sort
of overnight, must be pretty tough.
503
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,279
So yeah, I imagine it would've
been a pretty hard blow.
504
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,319
[Alec Hogg] The industry did, certainly in
the initial stages, take a terrible hit.
505
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,200
A lot of that is that the firepower
that Jooste brought to sales
506
00:35:39,201 --> 00:35:43,718
and the way that the money he invested
in the industry lifted all ships.
507
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,759
That firepower has now gone.
508
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,479
And the money that was there
509
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,920
for distribution across many mouths
that were fed, is no longer there.
510
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:02,238
There is a small
chance that the public
511
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,959
might be able to actually see what
Markus Jooste really looks like.
512
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,879
The Standing Committee on Finance
has taken a draft resolution
513
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,480
today to issue a
summons for Mr Jooste.
514
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,479
Do you swear that the
evidence you are about to give
515
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,800
is the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth?
516
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,638
I thought it important to share with
the honourable committees here today
517
00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:42,879
the events, and the
sequence of events,
518
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,518
that led to the incidents
of December 2017.
519
00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:50,479
I was only about two meters from
him, and I had an opportunity
520
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,480
to sort of observe him very
carefully during those hearings.
521
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:56,598
He was quite formidable.
522
00:36:56,599 --> 00:37:00,439
This was not the first time that
he'd had to take tough questions.
523
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,598
And of course, because of his position,
he had superior technical knowledge.
524
00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:09,879
And I got the impression
that he was utterly ruthless.
525
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,120
And I remember thinking,
you know, this man would,
526
00:37:12,121 --> 00:37:14,919
you know, happily
drown a bag of cats.
527
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,839
I would like to take the honourable
committees slightly back.
528
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,678
2007, Steinhoff formed
529
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:26,879
a joint venture
strategic partnership
530
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,840
with Dr Andreas
Seifert of Austria.
531
00:37:31,639 --> 00:37:34,198
The vision between
Steinhoff and Seifert
532
00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:38,558
was to form a large European
household discount chain
533
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:40,519
that could compete with IKEA.
534
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,638
Unfortunately it turned out that
Dr Seifert was the wrong person
535
00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:47,279
to go into business with,
536
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:53,000
and Steinhoff's association with
Seifert was terminated in March 2015.
537
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,360
During 2015, Steinhoff learned
538
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,279
that our ex-strategic
partner, Dr Seifert,
539
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,440
made various statements to
the German tax authorities.
540
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:08,319
It was Steinhoff's and my view
541
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,718
that Seifert was attempting
to use public prosecutors,
542
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,118
capital market
regulators and the press
543
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:20,518
to assist him in his unfounded
attempts to obtain information
544
00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:26,158
and to influence the outcome of the
courts in the ongoing civil litigations.
545
00:38:26,159 --> 00:38:29,238
Seifert is the one who is the arch
villain in this particular picture
546
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,759
painted by Markus, and has created
this false picture of a company
547
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,080
that is actually fine, but
which has been unfairly targeted
548
00:38:36,081 --> 00:38:40,158
and smeared, and Markus, as a result,
has been unfairly targeted and smeared.
549
00:38:40,159 --> 00:38:46,038
And my discussion with Dr
Wiese and the legal advisers
550
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:52,439
was that the supervisory board should
replace Deloitte, at that stage,
551
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,759
with a firm that was prepared to
sign off by the end of January
552
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,598
to meet the deadline.
553
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:03,839
And I made it very clear that if that is
not the way the board would want to go,
554
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,839
I don't see my way forward.
555
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,799
We know the numbers which
Christo reportedly lost
556
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,879
when the whole group collapsed.
557
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,279
What about you and your family
trust and everything else?
558
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,520
On what day do you want to take the
share price? The day before the collapse?
559
00:39:19,521 --> 00:39:23,879
Don't get now disingenuous.
On the day of the collapse.
560
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,000
Then it is roughly
about R3 billion.
561
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,720
I would imagine that if I was
going to be losing R3 billion,
562
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,840
I would not just up and leave
after 29 years of service,
563
00:39:39,639 --> 00:39:42,118
just on the basis
of one decision.
564
00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:45,999
You literally, with all due respect,
sir, threw your toys out the cot.
565
00:39:46,639 --> 00:39:48,518
I'm not convinced
by that at all.
566
00:39:48,519 --> 00:39:53,359
I went through a
two-and-a-half-year period,
567
00:39:54,280 --> 00:40:00,518
dealing with the issues from when
the German tax investigation started,
568
00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:03,919
the legal fights with Seifert.
569
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,359
And my personal view was
570
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:12,839
that the start of a new, brand new,
investigation on the 5th of December
571
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,160
will not be completed.
572
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,279
Why will it be completed
quicker than two years
573
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,560
if all the other people
have taken two years?
574
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:24,638
And therefore, I knew that
the company will be left
575
00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:30,639
in absolute limbo and obviously
pointing fingers at me as the CEO.
576
00:40:31,119 --> 00:40:35,038
And at that stage, that was my
decision, that I had enough.
577
00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:39,479
It was not about losing
money or what was at stake.
578
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:49,198
[Dr Giada Del Fabbro] What stands
out is he's deflecting blame
579
00:40:49,199 --> 00:40:52,159
and responsibility to
others or other situations.
580
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:56,959
These are traits we
find quite consistently
581
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:58,640
in antisocial
personality disorder.
582
00:40:58,641 --> 00:41:02,638
So these individuals also don't appreciate
the consequences of their actions
583
00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:04,479
in a way that would
inhibit their behaviour.
584
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,160
And if you feel confident in
your ability to deflect blame,
585
00:41:08,161 --> 00:41:10,759
then you do feel like
you are untouchable.
586
00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:17,759
That inability to conceptualise
or entertain the idea
587
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,238
that he could be found guilty.
588
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,879
He quite effectively almost
cast himself as a victim.
589
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,160
I didn't buy it.
590
00:41:25,161 --> 00:41:28,679
And I don't think that many
members of the committee bought it.
591
00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:32,119
What Mr Jooste is doing
592
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,479
is to now shift the blame
to the strategic partner.
593
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,198
I'm not sure if Markus
believes what he said entirely
594
00:41:42,199 --> 00:41:45,079
or if it's a narrative he
constructed and is sticking to.
595
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,678
"This is just a grudge by my former
colleague and my peer, Andreas Seifert,
596
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:52,239
to make me look bad."
597
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,600
Now, that is a story that
doesn't appear to hold water.
598
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,558
The fact is, a forensic audit of
Steinhoff by PWC found 6.5 billion,
599
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:16,359
R106 billion, of fictitious
transactions over more than a decade.
600
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,839
It's unlikely that a R106 billion
in fictitious deals over ten years
601
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,440
is created by Andreas
Seifert as part of a grudge.
602
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,839
I worked 29 years for this company
every day of my life to build it,
603
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,319
and to travel all over the
world, traveling 200 days a year
604
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,200
into the different
countries of the world.
605
00:42:36,201 --> 00:42:40,118
And therefore it saddened me
what has happened to Steinhoff.
606
00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:43,959
It was a business creating more
than a hundred thousand jobs.
607
00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:47,158
You know, you're coming across
608
00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:50,518
almost like you're a Mother
Teresa of Steinhoff, right?
609
00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:55,238
I can only say that I'm trying my best
this morning to answer the questions
610
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,239
to the best of my ability, and
to the knowledge that I have.
611
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:04,760
The word scandal is now
the writers of sensation.
612
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:11,679
Jooste is a very clever, very
slick and a very slippery operator.
613
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,160
You know, he knows where all the bodies
are buried because he buried them.
614
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:22,118
In fact, he was the undertaker
and he owns the cemetery as well.
615
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:25,319
So there's no way that
you're gonna catch him out
616
00:43:26,159 --> 00:43:32,799
in divulging the most inner secrets of
his most inner balance sheet, as it were.
617
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,160
He presented a sort of almost a
veneer of respect for the committee.
618
00:43:41,161 --> 00:43:42,839
But I could almost feel
619
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,200
that sort of as he became more
comfortable in the environment,
620
00:43:46,201 --> 00:43:48,678
as he became more confident
in the environment,
621
00:43:48,679 --> 00:43:52,078
that arrogance started to show.
622
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:56,799
And so I thought that I would put a
question to him that would rattle him.
623
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,439
The bolt from the blue
finally struck on or about
624
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,160
Monday, the 5th
of December 2017.
625
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:12,399
One of the people who you
once regarded as a friend
626
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:18,640
apparently referred to you as, and
I quote, "a fucking psychopath,"
627
00:44:19,599 --> 00:44:24,799
presumably because you had lied
to him convincingly for years.
628
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:29,638
Is it an accurate description
of your personality?
629
00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:32,359
I would like to say
that I never lied
630
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,160
about the activities of the
company as the allegation was made.
631
00:44:36,161 --> 00:44:39,359
Mr Jooste, what surprises
me most about your evidence
632
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,760
is there is no
contrition, no apology...
633
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:48,199
to the thousands of people,
634
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:53,919
who you yourself concede
suffered major financial loss.
635
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,600
I think in distancing himself when
working with other people's money,
636
00:44:57,601 --> 00:44:59,799
there was this illusion
that his hands were clean.
637
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,240
For that reason, it might be
hard for him to conceptualize
638
00:45:03,241 --> 00:45:05,919
that he would hold the ultimate
responsibility for that.
639
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,200
[Alec Hogg] You know,
psychologists talk about sociopaths
640
00:45:14,201 --> 00:45:18,879
and sociopaths are predators
641
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,560
and they can see where
your weak spots are.
642
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:30,399
And they know how to manipulate others
who are close to them and around them
643
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,000
in such a way as they
can gain advantage.
644
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,960
I don't feel sympathetic
towards him at all.
645
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,759
I think Markus knew
exactly what he was doing.
646
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:46,000
He knew exactly who he was
using and manipulating,
647
00:45:47,039 --> 00:45:51,159
and he hasn't even
tried to say sorry.
648
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,158
One mistake we must not make is to
call these accounting irregularities
649
00:45:57,159 --> 00:45:59,839
or all these other fancy terms
650
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:04,280
which sanitizes the tragedy and crisis
before us. This is pure corruption.
651
00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:08,718
Because we treat the public
sector with that kind of outlook.
652
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,198
So I'm just saying, it can't be
different strokes for different folks.
653
00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:17,198
That was the bracing reality, I think,
for the country to realize after Steinhoff
654
00:46:17,199 --> 00:46:20,238
that what was happening in the
wider society had infiltrated
655
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,159
other parts of society that people
thought were somehow immune from it.
656
00:46:24,519 --> 00:46:25,678
Fraud and corruption.
657
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:27,038
No accountability.
658
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:28,359
Serious allegations.
659
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,479
- State Capture.
- The State Capture Inquiry.
660
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:31,600
The State Capture Commission.
661
00:46:31,601 --> 00:46:33,919
It cost the economy billions.
662
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,600
The Guptas were benefiting
from government work,
663
00:46:36,601 --> 00:46:40,279
helped by the executive powers
of former president Jacob Zuma.
664
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,560
He's never taken
responsibility for anything.
665
00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:46,439
[Rob Rose] During the Zuma years sort
of after 2011, what we found out,
666
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,959
essentially the country was
being run by a shadow government.
667
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,359
That we had people pulling the strings
from behind the president, Jacob Zuma.
668
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,200
And all of this was essentially
the state capture years.
669
00:46:56,201 --> 00:46:59,718
Until people are caught
they will continue doing it.
670
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,558
For a long time our corporate
sector was lauded internationally.
671
00:47:02,559 --> 00:47:05,078
We had the strongest auditing
standards in the world.
672
00:47:05,079 --> 00:47:07,759
We had the strongest
corporate governance systems.
673
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,279
And then corporate ethics began
to fray too, to some extent.
674
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,279
There are a number of public institutions
and public sector institutions
675
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,799
that were simply hollowed out.
676
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,718
The National Prosecuting Authority
was one of the main sites of capture
677
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,319
during the Jacob Zuma era, which
allowed Markus Jooste to get away
678
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:32,518
with much more than, you would
argue, he would have gotten away with
679
00:47:32,519 --> 00:47:34,079
had these institutions
functioned.
680
00:47:34,559 --> 00:47:37,198
And afterwards, we've seen a
rash of corporate scandals.
681
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:40,919
We've seen Tongaat Hulett, we've seen VBS
Mutual Bank and a number of other ones
682
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,240
which indicate that certainly
things were happening in the margin.
683
00:47:44,241 --> 00:47:47,158
And I think that Steinhoff was
the big symbol of that, of how
684
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:49,199
we lost our way in
the corporate sector.
685
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,520
Because many of these accounting firms
not only aided and abetted state capture,
686
00:47:54,521 --> 00:47:57,038
but aided and
abetted Markus Jooste
687
00:47:57,039 --> 00:47:59,879
to create this fiction of a
multibillion dollar company
688
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,000
which clearly was found on sand.
689
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,319
[Graham Theobald] You can't
get a one-sided corruption.
690
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,759
There's got to be two sides.
691
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,718
The money's got to flow
692
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,799
and it's got to come from somewhere
and it's got to go somewhere.
693
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,600
So trust in our
institutions starts eroding.
694
00:48:18,519 --> 00:48:21,558
And, you know, and
when that happens,
695
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:25,638
then personal value
systems get compromised.
696
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:28,678
If Bain & Company
can do it, why can't I?
697
00:48:28,679 --> 00:48:30,759
And how do you correct that?
698
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:35,439
[Pieter du Toit] It was
multiple systems failure.
699
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,759
You can't pin it on one system that
did not do what it was supposed to do.
700
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,200
It was systems in the private
sector, systems in the public sector,
701
00:48:44,201 --> 00:48:46,879
and in this void
stepped Markus Jooste.
702
00:48:51,519 --> 00:48:54,199
You come in here and you
act like nothing is wrong!
703
00:48:55,159 --> 00:48:56,999
You must be ashamed of yourself!
704
00:48:58,119 --> 00:49:02,238
[Thys du Toit] South Africa needs
resources. It needs savings.
705
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,839
And if South Africa
is defrauded,
706
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:09,759
be it by the Guptas, be it by Jooste,
you're depleting that savings base,
707
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,960
that very necessary capital.
708
00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:17,558
Employment is not created by
the State. Employment is created
709
00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:21,198
by creating an environment for
entrepreneurs to flourish in.
710
00:49:21,199 --> 00:49:24,678
And if the savings base of
South Africa is depleted
711
00:49:24,679 --> 00:49:29,078
then the capital available to
people that create jobs disappear.
712
00:49:29,079 --> 00:49:34,118
And that's basically what the Guptas did
in a big, big way with state capture.
713
00:49:34,119 --> 00:49:37,439
And that is what Jooste
did with Steinhoff.
714
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,880
And as a result, the
entire population suffers.
715
00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:45,558
One typically points the
finger at the politicians.
716
00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:50,439
But here is a clear case of where
the private sector is also at blame.
717
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:54,439
You know, people will
learn a lesson from this.
718
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,598
And a few years from now,
719
00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:00,879
bet your bottom dollar
you run the risk again.
720
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:05,600
I mean, Steinhoff was scarcely
cold when Tongaat happened.
721
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,078
And the rest! It
will happen again.
722
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:14,078
It's amazing that you say that, because
people talk about how we must stop this
723
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:16,879
and bulletproof it from happening again.
But you don't think it's possible?
724
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,840
Well, why didn't they stop
it after Enron and Madoff?
725
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,680
[Bernard Agulhas] We have fragmented
regulation in South Africa at the moment.
726
00:50:30,681 --> 00:50:33,678
That means that only
auditors are regulated.
727
00:50:33,679 --> 00:50:37,639
Only auditors are held to
account for an audit failure.
728
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,879
Audit committee members, board members...
You can take away their designations,
729
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,799
but you can't stop them from
carrying on and doing the same work,
730
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,879
whereas an auditor's
license can be withdrawn.
731
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,279
That is because there's an
act that regulates auditors.
732
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,279
The other portions of the financial
reporting chain, or the ecosystem,
733
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:56,439
is not regulated.
734
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,160
What applies to the auditors
should also apply to them.
735
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,600
All those role players should
be subject to regulation.
736
00:51:03,079 --> 00:51:04,678
They should also
be held to account
737
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:08,038
in the same way that an auditor's
license can be taken away from them.
738
00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:10,359
And we don't have
that at the moment.
739
00:51:25,639 --> 00:51:31,919
I think everyone in the end ended
up in a good position, not ideal.
740
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,959
And that's probably the hallmarks
of any settlement, ultimately.
741
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,158
Everyone is a little
bit frustrated,
742
00:51:40,159 --> 00:51:42,559
which means it's probably
a good settlement.
743
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:57,198
The settlement was... [chuckles]
Relative to the damage that was done,
744
00:51:57,199 --> 00:51:59,399
I think they got off lightly.
745
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,558
But it was in the shareholders'
interest to some extent that...
746
00:52:04,559 --> 00:52:05,879
they salvage the company.
747
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,238
Because if the settlement
were significantly bigger,
748
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:16,879
they would've had to close Steinhoff,
and that would've been a bigger problem.
749
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,600
Maybe there would've
been job losses.
750
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,959
[Jean Pierre Verster] Yes, I do think
Steinhoff is on a path to recovery.
751
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,399
It's gonna be a bumpy path.
752
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,600
There was definitely a probability
that Steinhoff would be liquidated.
753
00:52:29,601 --> 00:52:31,479
It would cease to exist,
754
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,359
and equity holders would lose all
their investments if that had happened.
755
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,319
Debt holders would lose a large
chunk of their investment.
756
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,799
So the new management
team that was brought in
757
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,320
to sort of mop up the problems
has done a great job to do that.
758
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,080
[Louis du Preez] We've changed
the business model significantly.
759
00:52:51,081 --> 00:52:56,319
In some instances by
necessity, in others by design.
760
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,359
Look, we're not out
of the woods yet.
761
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:03,479
We believe everyone and anyone who
has a share in this company today
762
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,678
will have all the
information at their disposal
763
00:53:06,679 --> 00:53:11,718
to make an informed decision if they want
to hold or sell or buy into the company.
764
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:16,518
And I think the share price is
definitely recovered somewhat.
765
00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:21,598
It's definitely not at the levels
that it was in December 2017.
766
00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:23,719
But that's now behind us.
767
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,319
[Thys du Toit] It is essential
that Steinhoff survives
768
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,720
because obviously they are one of
the main claimants against Jooste
769
00:53:31,721 --> 00:53:36,158
and so it's essential that they survive
for that court case to go ahead.
770
00:53:36,159 --> 00:53:39,518
What makes me more despondent is the
fact that there's so little progress
771
00:53:39,519 --> 00:53:41,359
from the National
Prosecuting Authority's side.
772
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:42,680
[sirens wailing]
773
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,959
I don't believe the Hawks have
started their investigation yet.
774
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,999
Does the NPA have the capacity to
successfully prosecute billionaires
775
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,359
who are going to be going to
court, if they do end up in court,
776
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,959
backed up by teams of legal
experts? I don't know!
777
00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:03,078
If you steal R100
000, you go to jail.
778
00:54:03,079 --> 00:54:07,158
If you basically defraud a company of
R100 billion, you don't go to jail.
779
00:54:07,159 --> 00:54:12,198
If Markus Jooste and his accomplices
were in fact prosecuted and convicted,
780
00:54:12,199 --> 00:54:16,399
that would be a significant deterrence
to commercial crime in South Africa.
781
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:21,759
He's no closer to the inside of a jail
cell today as he was in December 2017.
782
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,359
This thing about
white collar crime
783
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:30,799
of being treated differently from
other kinds of crime is unacceptable.
784
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,080
[Twitter whistle]
785
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,160
[Twitter whistle]
786
00:54:41,159 --> 00:54:42,439
[Twitter whistle]
787
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,640
You see, the evidence is there.
788
00:54:48,641 --> 00:54:54,399
FEDUSA and our biggest union, the
Public Servants Association, the PSA.
789
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,118
We went to their
offices in Stellenbosch.
790
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:00,399
We collected all the minutes.
791
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,999
We want to give those documents
over to the Hawks and say,
792
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:09,558
"Guys, you've got the responsibility in
terms of the constitution to prosecute.
793
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:12,319
Prosecute these people!"
What is the problem?
794
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,000
[reporter3] Is the net closing
in on former Steinhoff CEO?
795
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:24,879
The regulator found Jooste
complicit in insider trading.
796
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:26,560
[reporter4] Jooste
warned his driver,
797
00:55:26,561 --> 00:55:30,839
a friend, and a business partner to
dispose of their Steinhoff shares.
798
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:32,518
[message alert]
799
00:55:32,519 --> 00:55:35,479
[Rob Rose] It took the regulator
a year or two to investigate this.
800
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,560
The regulator, the Financial
Sector Conduct Authority,
801
00:55:38,561 --> 00:55:41,879
slapped the largest fine on anyone
in its history for insider trading.
802
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,440
It was a landmark
fine in their case.
803
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:04,479
[Fifi Peters] Insider trading can be
explained through a game of blackjack.
804
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:08,038
If the dealer gives me
a peek of the next card
805
00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:11,518
and only me, not
the other players,
806
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:15,719
then I have some inside knowledge
that can ensure that I win.
807
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,158
Let's imagine the dealer
was the CEO of a company
808
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:22,919
with knowledge of
what's about to unfold.
809
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,160
Maybe evidence of fraud
is going to be uncovered,
810
00:56:26,161 --> 00:56:28,719
which will make the
share price plunge.
811
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,399
If the CEO discloses that
information to a third party
812
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,038
before it becomes
public knowledge
813
00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:39,319
and they sell their
shares to avoid losses...
814
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,720
That's insider trading.
815
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,759
It's illegal, and it's
exactly what Markus Jooste did
816
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:47,800
in November 2017.
817
00:56:49,679 --> 00:56:53,359
The legal system, in being fair,
818
00:56:54,199 --> 00:56:59,959
also allows those who have
money and the resources
819
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,840
to take advantage of it.
820
00:57:04,599 --> 00:57:09,439
To continue over decades
821
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,078
in defending their case,
often on technicalities.
822
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:15,959
We see many examples of
that here in South Africa.
823
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,919
He was fined more
then R160 million,
824
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,439
and the driver
was fined R18 000.
825
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,399
The driver already
paid his R18 000,
826
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,359
Markus has not paid his
R160-something million,
827
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:41,760
but he's free, living his
life. Where's justice there?
828
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,320
That is unfair. That's what
we need to end as a country.
829
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:55,999
It doesn't matter who you are, whether
you're poor or rich, or black and white,
830
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,520
male or female, you should be
able to be treated the same.
831
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:05,359
It's not helping the country to heal
from a reconciliation point of view.
832
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,919
Because it creates this
tension that we always have.
833
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:12,799
If we want to create an
equal, or equitable society,
834
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:16,360
we need to make sure that we are
seen to be treating people equally.
835
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:33,158
He apparently does knock
around in his Bentley 4x4.
836
00:58:33,159 --> 00:58:36,678
From time to time he's
seen early in the morning
837
00:58:36,679 --> 00:58:39,718
going into a coffee
shop in Hermanus
838
00:58:39,719 --> 00:58:45,799
with a cap drawn over his face, and
scarves, so he's not recognizable.
839
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,479
[Rob Rose] He is something
of a pariah in Hermanus
840
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,279
partly because so many
people in that town
841
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,319
had bought into his vision of Steinhoff
and had lost a lot of money on that.
842
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,279
So the rumours of Markus-spotting
has become a bit of a sport
843
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,999
in places like Stellenbosch and
Cape Town, where people say,
844
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,600
"I saw him at Lanzerac last week." "I
saw him in a restaurant in Cape Town."
845
00:59:04,601 --> 00:59:06,399
But it's got to be
a terrible life.
846
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,999
I know Ingrid, his
wife has stuck by him,
847
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,198
which, given all the
publicity of his affairs,
848
00:59:12,199 --> 00:59:16,718
and the very public nature of those
is in itself quite extraordinary.
849
00:59:16,719 --> 00:59:20,558
There are frequent pictures of the walls
outside his house being painted with
850
00:59:20,559 --> 00:59:23,879
very mean slogans every day, and
having to be repainted the whole time.
851
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:32,518
[Thys du Toit] I think his circle
of friends have changed a bit,
852
00:59:32,519 --> 00:59:35,078
but he had what I used to
call his praise singers.
853
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:37,198
His "raasbende" his "imbongi".
854
00:59:37,199 --> 00:59:40,598
He had these people that always
tagged along for freebies
855
00:59:40,599 --> 00:59:45,198
and I'm sure they're all still
frequenting him, and they see him often.
856
00:59:45,199 --> 00:59:48,999
I haven't seen him. I often wonder
what I would do if I do see him.
857
00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:51,319
But let me not elaborate.
858
00:59:55,039 --> 00:59:57,198
[Rob Rose] Did Markus
apologize to you personally?
859
00:59:57,199 --> 00:59:58,319
No.
860
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,279
If you were to see Markus just walking
here today, what would you say to him?
861
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,480
- I should say, "Markus, fuck off."
- [both laughing]
862
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,680
[director] If Markus was sitting in front
of you, what would you like to ask him?
863
01:00:12,681 --> 01:00:15,959
"Are you okay?" And
I hope that he is.
864
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,319
I'll ask him, ' "Why?"
865
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:24,839
And, "How did you think you could get
through it, you know, ad infinitum?"
866
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,720
And then, being a little bit
personal, "Why did you target me?"
867
01:00:29,199 --> 01:00:32,359
This isn't a normal person.
868
01:00:33,119 --> 01:00:35,399
You've got to be an artist,
869
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:40,360
knowing every button to
push with every person.
870
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,959
[Dr Giada Del Fabbro] Money and
status does not change people.
871
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,200
For the large part,
they are who they are.
872
01:00:55,201 --> 01:00:59,359
And then, the way in which that money
and status is expressed or used,
873
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,560
is a reflection
of their morality.
874
01:01:02,239 --> 01:01:05,558
You know, you don't find people
suddenly becoming corrupt
875
01:01:05,559 --> 01:01:07,119
when they have a lot of money.
876
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,439
It's really a trajectory,
where, from early on,
877
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,279
their internal world has
been formed in the way
878
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,359
that they are entitled
to get what they need,
879
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,840
even if that means hurting
other people, breaking a law.
880
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:26,760
Whatever he's got, he should hand it
over because it was ill-gotten gains.
881
01:01:27,239 --> 01:01:28,919
He needs to pay the price.
882
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,759
The evidence is
just so overwhelming
883
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:36,558
and the cost to
society is so huge,
884
01:01:36,559 --> 01:01:40,359
that to continue denying it, you're
only doing it for one reason,
885
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,160
and that is for
self-preservation.
886
01:01:42,161 --> 01:01:44,038
I speak to the
police and ask them.
887
01:01:44,039 --> 01:01:48,078
They said they're very
confident they're...
888
01:01:48,079 --> 01:01:50,959
gonna get this
case in court soon.
889
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:54,759
But I mean, "soon" for the police
might be in six months' time.
890
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:59,080
But I am definitely checking up on
them constantly. I'm not giving up.
891
01:01:59,081 --> 01:02:01,198
I'm sure he'll go to jail.
892
01:02:01,199 --> 01:02:03,919
It's so glaringly obvious.
893
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,839
I'm sure that he has
a million reasons
894
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,799
how, why, and what he
did and why he did it.
895
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:16,038
If he wants to be the macho Afrikaner
that he claims to be, then be that man.
896
01:02:16,039 --> 01:02:18,799
Stand up and have integrity.
897
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:25,080
Admit to the world what you did, face the
consequences of that, and let us move on.
898
01:02:25,559 --> 01:02:27,799
But otherwise, Markus
is just a gangster.
899
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,720
He's just a street thug
as far as I'm concerned.
85379
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