Original subtitles

The Tower of London's Chapel of St. Peter ad Vinicula

Final resting place of Thomas Cromwell, Anne Boleyn and Thomas More

Where better to discuss the BBC Drama series: "Wolf Hall"

With it's Director, Peter Kosminsky and star, Mark Rylance

This season has been such a massive success and is sold all over the world

With what do you attribute its appeal

You know, it's taken us all by surprise

We knew we were working, with wonderful actors, a fantastic script

Extraordinary source material - Hilary Mantel's novels

But, in the end it's a costume drama about the Tudors and that's been done before

I don't know why it has gripped the nation the way it appears to have done

It's been, for us, a big surprise

But, I mean that's a winner for you Mark

Because you've notoriously shied away from television and film

And, you know, what was it about this that was different

What drew you to this?

I'd read the script before the book actually to be honest with you

My wife had read the book and had loved it

But I had been so busy that I hadn't been able to do that

So, I really took the project on the script

Which was a phenomenally good script

But, to be able to bring a large book

Two-books

Down in the way he did to these essential scenes

I think it's extraordinary work

And then the next big question for me who was to direct it

And once Peter adjusted his plans then I was on board

But I wasn't on board until Peter was on board

So, was this a kind of act of persuasion

Aah, we had a coffee together

I definitely... there were things I might have

asked another director that I didn't ask Peter

And a lot to learn because you're not a man

for, as it were, costume-drama; period-drama

You're absolutely not that kind of director

Well I had a bad formative experience Kirsty

I did an adaptation for Wuthering Heights

It was terrible, it wasn't good and it sort've scarred me

It didn't do bad for Ralph Fiennes

No, Ralph Fiennes did OK

But, I thought, well I can't do that

That's not me

And when Mark and I had worked together before it had been

on a contemporary piece about the death of Dr. Dave Kelley

The Government Inspector

Mark played so beautifully

But, when he asked me, you know; I had been

wanting to work with him again, it had been 10 years

You don't want to work with Mark Rylance that isn't right

You want to work on something that has enough of a range, and depth,

and intensity that allows him to do what he does so brilliantly

And, this was such an opportunity so it was hard to refuse

When you came to inhabit Cromwell, what was your first thoughts

He's such a complex character

But also, I was thinking that you're quite a private person

And I think Cromwell per-force had to be like that too, didn't he?

What comes to my mind is, I was very struck by him being a run-away by age 14

And someone who learnt to survive on the street in Europe at that time

Got involved in armies, then provisioning armies, and then the rag trade

Was a rough way of speaking what he did, but; and then banking

I know a wonderful poet down in Brixton actually who came down from the North

Arrived at Kings Cross, lived rough for a year or two in Soho with a gang of kids

Just fed themselves, you know, by finding out where

the hotels dump their extra food and stuff like that

And so, I thought of people like that

They keep the cards they have to play close to their chest

And I think that always struck me that served Cromwell very

well as he moved into even more dangerous powerful places

I think one of the questions that we asked ourselves

It's easy to talk about a man who comes from nothing to great power

But then stop and think about that for a moment

And think about the times

This is like the first person who ever did this

And you think, what was it that Cromwell had that to

allow him to so capture the attention of the King

To so mesmerise society that for those few short

years, he was essentialy the ruler of the land

He has to have been an incredibly powerful, charismatic...

That is I think is Mark's triumph

Doing very little, he creates this sense of fascination that

you're wondering what he's thinking, what's he going to say

You can do that so brilliantly with a look, on obviously many occasions

But when he's looking at Jane Seymour, what I

love is the audience has to do the work too

What is he thinking? Is he thinking that she is the next wife?

You get a sense always that he's living by his wits.

I watched a lot of films before we began to film.

I wanted to really try and see what the great film actors were doing.

I was particularly impressed by Brad Pitt, in a film called

"The Assassination of Jessie James"

Where he does very, very little.

I just found myself completely pulled into it.

I've always admired Robert Mitchum

I really wanted to dare to just think.

Peter were very encouraging.

Often, when you're acting you think things you didn't prepare to think.

They come flitting across your mind

As I look at Claire Foy, or look at what Damian's doing

Sometimes it would be so fast the thought, then he would come up to me

after a take and say

"Oh I saw you were thinking that weren't you"

And I couldn't believe that he had seen that thought.

He's a very good observer of what actors are doing.

In fact, other director's don't do this, he has someone else say "Action"

Because, by that moment he's already buried himself in the viewer

And trying to connect with us

I like that idea that you're the director as observer,

your work is sort've done to a certain extent and you're observing

Well my work is done, really.

My work is done on the script and in casting the actors.

And if you're quite inexperienced, and I was certainly guilty of this

You sort've think well I had better say something,

because otherwise I'm not really being the director

But if you've got nothing to contribute it's best to stay silent.

One of the most important electric relationships in the series is

between Thomas More, whose over there in the tower, and Thomas Cromwell

Tell me how you two talked about that relationship

I think we all have a part of this, that's idealistic

Our parents, or ourselves, or the things we admire

Raise ideals of how our life should be

And we all have a part that's pragmatic

And so, it was easy to feel I was talking to my idealistic side

You know the drama expressed a drum that goes on in each of us

Whatever level of society you live in, you've got that

These two acted out at a very, very high dangerous level of society

I think that's why this story comes round so often, as such a popular myth

Because it's something that happens in many, many peoples lives.

If only one of them could have got to Henry and Anne

with the benefit of what we know and tell them

Look, you have given birth to one of the

greatest sovereigns this country will ever have

And because of this mindset at the time,

that only a man can be a great King

You're going to destroy your marriage,

This woman's going to die.

It's all ridiculous.

If you could change your mindset and accept

that a woman might be a great sovereign

You should be the happiest parents in the world right now.

From the Catholic point of view, More is arguing...

if you've had a child, he's arguing for Mary of course

Then you should accept that, that is God's plan

even if it seems a difficult thing

And, from Cromwell's point of view,

he would have gone in there and encouraged

from a pragmatic point of view

You have a child.

Why cause all this problem trying to have another one.

What is so great about the script, and the way that it's realised

Is that, you're not looking at it as history, you're in it

Well she writes that, that's one of the joys of reading the book

And I would recommend, if you haven't read the book and like the show

Then read the book. There's so much more in it that's wonderful

It takes a little while because you have to get into it

But then you suddenly have a feelingl; I'm in the room with them

It feels like I'm there with them

And not knowing the next move

That's right

And I think maybe because she's made it seem so unlike a historical novel

That's maybe why people assume that her research,

or her work is reckless or careless

But she researched for five years

And so, I think the critics that you may read of whether this is true or not

You have to remember that she did a lot of work

She didn't just come in and do a popular version of this story

Of course, there's a lively debate going on;

particularly in the Twitter sphere about our interpretation of Cromwell

And some people feel this is sort've horribly revisionist.

The man was a brute, and a cheat.

Very much his father's son.

And, I personally don't care two hoots. I'm moderating my language.

Don't care two hoots about that.

You know, this is Hilary's vision.

And we have embraced it and enjoyed embracing it.

I've had a great letter comparing me to Alec Guinness’s character in

"The Bridge on the River Kwai"

That in playing Cromwell, I built a very good bridge, but forgot about the war.

I think that people are very enamoured of Thomas More

and upset to see that Utopian people have a shadow.

People forgetting the book shares a wonderful Catholic man

in a very good light, Cardinal Wolsey

With all the flexibility

...and all the vainness as well

Yeah, and a love of food, and of the world,

rather than a desire to repress and move away from the world

But the portrayal of More seems to be entirely what has

created this attack on Hilary Mantel for being anti-Catholic

Well, some of the attack happened before episode four

and it's been a bit more muted since then

When you get into the long and quite complex discussions,

particularly the two scenes in the tower between Cromwell and More

You start to see the sophistication of the argument

I was in my barge, to row you back to Chelsea,

back to your garden, your children. Back to Dame Ellis.

Waiting to bear you up to own bed.

We see this drama through Cromwell's eye and we're left in absolutely no doubt

that Cromwell has a huge personal respect for More.

That he'll do almost anything.

He gets into the moment, probably one of only two really difficult moments

with the king where he says:

"I'm really not sure we can do this with More"

I don't doubt his loyalty to Rome,

nor his hatred of Your Majesty's title as head of the church.

However, legally our case is slender.

It won't be easy.

Do I keep you for what's easy.

You think I've promoted you for the charm of your presence.

I keep you because you're a serpent.

Do not be a viper in my bosom.

You know my decision. Execute it.

Cromwell, the ultimate pragmatist. Thinks it's just such a waste.

A waste of a great man and a great intellect.

And it's this debate between a man who is entirely focused on the next life,

who thinks if I do something like that now, I will suffer in perpetuity

And a man, who is essentially worried

about living this life, not so focused on the next one.

And that's what make this complex and interesting.

Damian Lewis as Henry VIII, gives us this person

who is capricious, entirely dangerous, despotic.

And in a sense he's a despot that we can all understand,

because he's like any despot.

I have great sympathy for Damian's Henry and

I'm just struck by the enormous pressure on him after this period of civil war

It's easy to forget, and I was talking to Peter about this last night

and saying you know, eventually a nation like Iraq

which is in such, such violent difficulty now.

Eventually a ruler will come forward,

like Nelson Mandela or someone, who will unite that nation.

And that ruler will have a child, two children say - Arthur and Henry.

The pressure on those children to maintain the hard fought stability

for a nation after a long period of civil war is enormous.

And that pressure it all lands on Henry.

It warps his character. It's too much pressure.

I have not forgotten how I helped your master against the French.

He promised me territory.

Next thing I hear he's making a treaty with Francois!

The emperor treats me like an infant.

First he whips me, then he pets me, then he whips me again.

Well tell him I am not an infant.

And tell him to keep out of my family business.

First he tells me how I should marry,

then he wants to show me how to deal with my own daughter.

I demand a profound and public apology.

He became very like his father. Very paranoid.

Very suspicious that didn't come from himself.

And a man like Cromwell, who appears to be

the second most powerful person in the land

Ends up realising that it's either do what Henry says or die.

And that is the dilemma that casts a shadow over the final episode, Episode Six

Where he's forced to do something he absolutely doesn't want to do

Which is to destroy Anne Boleyn,

a woman for whom he has the greatest respect.

And its her or him.

Cromwell is watching her go to her death,

and in that moment he doesn't want her to die.

No, of course not.

He can see Cromwell many moves ahead on the chessboard.

And he's trying to encourage the other player

to get off the road before they get hit.

When you read the book, you see that

he's supporting so many members of his family.

He's taking in orphans.

He's giving a lot of money outside his house.

We know that he gave money for the roads.

He's supporting a lot of other people.

So he knows if he goes down, a lot of wildlife goes down as well.

He wants to keep himself enabled to do good to others.

And if the person won't save themselves,

then you know they shouldn't be in the game.

Peter Straughan's written it brilliantly so you see the

inter-cutting between Cromwell on the morning of the execution

Talking to the executioner

Trying to make sure that she doesn't suffer

And that it's done properly

How will you do it?

She kneels?

There is no block.

And then the event itself.

He wants her to have a clean and painless death.

And then he goes to Henry and Henry throws open his arms.

With a great beam on his eyes, to welcome.

And we see Cromwell's face, and we see a man caught in a trap.

Arguably of his own making.

And I'm thinking of Faust who made a pact with the devil

And then came to realise what that pact would cost him.

You talk about the way that Peter works.

And there's a real challenge in bringing the right atmostphere.

So first of all, locations.

Was that actually a great challenge to get the right location

Was it enjoyable, tell me about some of that.

Well thank God! We were going to be filming Europe

In Brogues I think

And Peter went and had a look

and said: This doesn't look like England

And insisted that we filmed in English locations

Which was just wonderful

Mark's absolutely right, and it was a joy

When we were filming that very final scene between Cromwell and Henry

In Penshurt's place, in the gallery

We were actually in a room that Henry and Anne Boleyn had stood in

Was there a "(french-word)?" for you about that?

Oh yeah, yeah of course.

There's a "(french-word)?" for me here today, in this chapel

With them being buried here,

And we're right near where they were executed.

History leaves such a resonance.

And also the beauty of the gardens, and the beauty of the land around.

I'd forgotten just how fantastic the resources

are in England for these houses.

So all of that encourages you, with the clothing and everything

To take on a sensibility that they had.

Also, much has been made of the candlelight.

I'm reminded of something that Hilary said.

She said that: "Candlelight does something amazing to your imagination."

Is that what you were thinking?

Well I asked Gavin Finney, our Director of Photography a fairly simple question.

Which is: "Is it possible, with the technology

that we have, to shoot night scenes by candlelight"

And he said: "Yes, I think it is"

Do you think he's afraid of me?

Why should he be?

I don't know?

First of all, I wanted day to be very bright, with strong white light.

And night, the rooms take on a completely different character.

Shadows are profound.

We have one scene, where Joan; Cromwell's sister-in-law

Slowly extinguishing candles round the room

Until Cromwell is light by just one light

And the fire.

Does Johane Williamson not do his duty by you?

His duty's not my pleasure.

There's a conversation I should never have.

That sense of closing in on him,

Until you're just left in a pool of light

For me, that was an artistic choice

That wasn't in the book or scripted particularly.

And another way that you make it

so much from Cromwell's perspective

Is by using the hand-held camera

Explain how you decided the trajectory for all that.

That's a heavy camera you know.

That's a 30-pound camera.

Pick up a 30-pound weight in your gym.

And that's what Gavin was wearing every day.

17 weeks?

He had to train. He had to do physical training.

And carry on training in the morning and on the weekends.

To make sure his back didn't go down.

It almost was as if the camera was one of the performers.

I don't like to hold back.

Hold off, like that camera's doing over there.

I like the camera to be with Mark.

You know, one of the challenges that we faced.

So much of the novels is the interior world of Cromwell.

We didn't want narration.

So how do you convey the sense that we're with this man.

That he is not just the main character.

But he's our character.

He's the person whose guiding us through.

Taking you now to a scene, where I thought

that Mark was just actually about to really kill Damian Lewis

rather than save Henry.

Tell me about the jousting scene

We made a decision on the day

I threw it at Mark really

Normally in that situation what you would do is

You'd have all the extras miming, they'd all be going...

And it would be silent.

And you'd then record the dialogue

And the actors would have to shout as if everyone...

And then at the end, you'd record all the crowd making a noise.

And I just didn't think that would work.

This was a very frantic scene.

So what we did, we decided to do it for real.

We got everybody to shout, and scream.

And Mark, and Bernard Hill who plays the Duke of Norfolk

And the other actors, and Damian, had to act

With all this noise, and confusion and racket

It was quite chaotic really, wasn't it?

It was. In a very small tent.

Just doing one take and we had very, very good extras on this film

I have to say

They stood in the rain. They were marvelous.

But on this day, they didn't seem to know who I was.

Or that I was going to be...

I don't think anyone had told them I was going to come through

And I really had to push, and get in there

And then they were all pushing around

"What do you mean, leaving him lying here!"

I think I pulled my blow as I tried to get Damian's heart going

I think you got carried away

Maybe, I don't know...

When we're watching it

We're very aware of the kind of, modernity of the dilemma's

Does it play to a modern political sensibility, do you think Peter.

I do. I do and I think

Mark has referred earlier to the battle

between idealism and pragmatism.

And, you know I'm currently working on something about ISIS

The Islamic State

Which you know, which is, I suppose a form of idealism

Islam is about 500 years younger than Christianity

And the period we're looking at here is about 500 years ago

So we're looking at a time when Christianity

was about the same age as a religion as Islam is today

And what were we doing back then

Well we were chopping people's heads off

We were burning people alive at the stake

We were disemboweling people, alive

And then drawing and quartering them

And why? Why were we doing that?

We were doing it primarily over quite subtle differences

of interpretation of religious doctrine.

Does that sound familiar?

But also in the manner in which the court operates.

The wheeling and dealing. The back-stabbing.

People don't often have a very high opinion of modern day politics.

There's some modern day politics in all of this as well, isn't there.

Certainly, Henry's struggle with a force outside of England

The Catholic church

I think our modern politicians have a great struggle

with the multi-national forces of business.

The fight for democracy

The fight even in a village to have the right to say, we don't want a Tesco's

We want to keep our High Street

So the period tells us a lot about a struggle for independence

At that time, it's the independence of the Monarch

At the moment, it's a struggle for the independence

of a democratic elected government from outside influences

In that way it's very parallel

In some ways you can see Henry VIII being,

as he separates from the Catholic Church

Just being in as vulnerable a position as Chavez, in Venezuela

And is paranoid being similar, to what appears

at times to be paranoid behaviour of a leader like Chavez

Do you think there are some similarities?

Yeah

You've now created a Cromwell who is still moving, still on the up.

Hilary's vision of him is not complete.

So, although you know the general trajectory,

because you understand history,

You don't really know how he's going to play it.

No I don't. No, I'm not a historian.

I know, because Peter's told me; that the last words he writes to Henry

From a room, somewhere in the vicinity here

Are Mercy. Mercy, mercy, mercy.

What, four or five times.

In this final plea to Henry before he's beheaded.

So I know where it's heading, so to speak.

Your plan is to go on and complete the journey with Cromwell.

Oh yeah, of course if she is able to write the book.

Hilary now has three children.

She has the book, which is the two books.

She has the play, which is the RSC of Donne.

And she has our film.

I think it's proven quite difficult for her

To go back into that lonely single mum place

of writing a book that all writers have to go to

Which is really hard

It's impossible for her not to be affected

by the manifestations that Ben Miles and I have brought to Cromwell

That Anton and John Ram have brought to More

All of this stuff, she's no longer just working with historical documents

She's working with the impressions we've added to it

And do you think that'll be a joy for her, or actually very tough to go back

Well, it's difficult because I've spoken to Hilary about the book

All she will say is, it's going well

And it's not going to be a short one

I think, we feel like we've done two-thirds of the journey

I have to tell you I was terribly affected by the death of Anne Boleyn

When we shot it

And that day itself was an extraordinary day

But, it will be as nothing to the impact

that it will have on all of us to shoot the execution of Cromwell

If we do this, we're going to go on a dark journey again

And do you have fears for Cromwell's end, yourself as an actor

How you're going to deal with it

When I watch it, I'm already concerned for what

For him taking advantage of Henry's cruelty to Anne

To settle old scores

He's already dying inside, Cromwell

And he's already in the mindset of; it's just collateral damage

And it's a dog-eat-dog world

He's heading towards some karma, for want of a better word

On the last week of shooting, after your seventeen weeks

You took treats in for the crew

Yes I had different snack each afternoon

Lovely Japanese food. Lots of different things

But it ended with an ice-cream truck

Which came with a marvelous kind of, it played some funny tune

I can't remember the tune

Mr Whippy tune

And we all queued up and had some lovely ice-cream

We never knew what was coming each day

And we had to troop out of whichever stately home we happened to be in

At around about four-o-clock the afternoon

To discover what Mark had arranged for us

And it really rounded the thing off beautifully

Very Cromwellian wasn't it

Peter Kosminsky, Mark Rylance

Thank you very much indeed.

Thank you.